Pourquoi tant de haine ?
August 11, 2008 8:18 PM Subscribe
Anti-French sentiment still runs high in the USA. Thankfully, Miquelon monitors French bashing activity since 2003. To gain some perspective, some even venture into the belly of the beast...Oh Paris Paramus, where art thou?
As a Frenchman having lived in the USA and still loving the country, I can't help but being hurt by the french bashing I still encounter in my everyday web reading. What is your perspective on frog spanking ?
As a Frenchman having lived in the USA and still loving the country, I can't help but being hurt by the french bashing I still encounter in my everyday web reading. What is your perspective on frog spanking ?
Speaking as a Francophile Brit, I can assure you that - given the source of the insults - they're a compliment. To get positive opinions from that crowd, you need to slavishly follow an incompetent administration into an illegal war.
I wish the worst we'd had to put up with was English Muffins being called Liberty Muffins for a bit.
posted by athenian at 8:28 PM on August 11, 2008 [7 favorites]
I wish the worst we'd had to put up with was English Muffins being called Liberty Muffins for a bit.
posted by athenian at 8:28 PM on August 11, 2008 [7 favorites]
The weirdest thing I ever heard regarding Americans French-bashing is that Rush Limbaugh loves the French and thinks of Paris as the most beautiful city on earth. It was in that long bio about him a couple months ago -- his bedroom is an exact replica of a french hotel he likes to stay at.
Given Fox News and Bill O'Reilly's hatred of all things French, it always struck me as weird that the king of right wing radio was the complete opposite.
posted by mathowie at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2008
Given Fox News and Bill O'Reilly's hatred of all things French, it always struck me as weird that the king of right wing radio was the complete opposite.
posted by mathowie at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2008
Last night after the US men beat the French team in the 4x100 relay, NBC interviewed the US team. Garrett Weber-Gale said on national TV, when asked about the French team saying they were going to smash the Americans, and I am paraphrasing here, "I heard the Frenchys were talking stuff, and I didn't want anything to do with it."
I took Frenchy as having negative connotations, and subsequently laughed my ass off because it was so appropriate after that race.
There may be a negative sentiment towards the French, but it is likely due to the fact that they are an easy target, and no more so than the American sentiments felt toward any other ethnicity or culture.
Hell, Americans are fat lazy slobs. The French can't win a war. Lets hug it out.
posted by clearly at 8:35 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
I took Frenchy as having negative connotations, and subsequently laughed my ass off because it was so appropriate after that race.
There may be a negative sentiment towards the French, but it is likely due to the fact that they are an easy target, and no more so than the American sentiments felt toward any other ethnicity or culture.
Hell, Americans are fat lazy slobs. The French can't win a war. Lets hug it out.
posted by clearly at 8:35 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's not bashing. Think of it as getting bugged by your younger brother who has gone through a recent growth spurt and ended up an inch or two taller. Sure, he's walking around with a puffy chest but deep down he still loves you. I mean, if I were to start up a makeup/fashion/fragrance company I wouldn't go with a Portuguese-sounding name, would I? No one says that they want a fancy meal a la Norwegian cooking. Californians don't try to compete with Danish wines.
Also, I somehow think there might be the odd bit of Yankee-bashing in France. Mmm? Un petit chance?
Everyone bashes everyone. It's how it is. Me? I hate the Samoans - man, those Samoans. YOU'RE ON MY LIST, SAMOA! YOU HEAR ME?!?!?!
Samoan bashing. New for 2009. I'll make t-shirts.
posted by Salmonberry at 8:37 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
Also, I somehow think there might be the odd bit of Yankee-bashing in France. Mmm? Un petit chance?
Everyone bashes everyone. It's how it is. Me? I hate the Samoans - man, those Samoans. YOU'RE ON MY LIST, SAMOA! YOU HEAR ME?!?!?!
Samoan bashing. New for 2009. I'll make t-shirts.
posted by Salmonberry at 8:37 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
On preview: I would eat Liberty muffins. They sound delicious.
posted by Salmonberry at 8:38 PM on August 11, 2008
posted by Salmonberry at 8:38 PM on August 11, 2008
Meh. Lots of Americans save their deepest hatred for, you know, other Americans.
Lots of Americans don't know that France even exists, so the French don't get half the hate that Libruls get.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 8:39 PM on August 11, 2008
Lots of Americans don't know that France even exists, so the French don't get half the hate that Libruls get.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 8:39 PM on August 11, 2008
From the first link:
Anti-French sentiment in the United States returned to the fore in the wake of France's refusal to support U.S. proposals in the UN Security Council for military action to invade Iraq.
So are they still hated now by the 'freedom fries' crowd because of the original sentiments above, or because they were actually correct in 02/03 for assessing an invasion to be a spectacularly retarded strategy?
posted by nudar at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anti-French sentiment in the United States returned to the fore in the wake of France's refusal to support U.S. proposals in the UN Security Council for military action to invade Iraq.
So are they still hated now by the 'freedom fries' crowd because of the original sentiments above, or because they were actually correct in 02/03 for assessing an invasion to be a spectacularly retarded strategy?
posted by nudar at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, while it may seem like there is a lot, most of it really is lighthearted. I've met very few Americans who actually hate French people or anything, it's just that France has become an accepted target of mild abuse (as is Canada). I saw a lot more French jokes / bashing in England than I have in America, really. Canada gets it worse here. But neither are really hatred, in the way that people hated, say, the USSR.
posted by wildcrdj at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by wildcrdj at 8:43 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh Paris Paramus, where art thou?
He's crashing on a friend's couch in Brooklyn.
posted by homunculus at 8:50 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
He's crashing on a friend's couch in Brooklyn.
posted by homunculus at 8:50 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Rush Limbaugh loves the French and thinks of Paris as the most beautiful city on earth.
you know who else loved paris?
the strange thing is that in this case, that actually an apt comparison
posted by klanawa at 8:50 PM on August 11, 2008
you know who else loved paris?
the strange thing is that in this case, that actually an apt comparison
posted by klanawa at 8:50 PM on August 11, 2008
"There is no hell. There is only France."
- Frank Zappa
FTR I love France and have visited twice, and took three years of French in school. But it's fun to pick on France, because they do the same thing, and both cultures are very proud and boastful.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:56 PM on August 11, 2008
- Frank Zappa
FTR I love France and have visited twice, and took three years of French in school. But it's fun to pick on France, because they do the same thing, and both cultures are very proud and boastful.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:56 PM on August 11, 2008
"What is your perspective on frog spanking?"
I've never heard it called that before.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:00 PM on August 11, 2008
I've never heard it called that before.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:00 PM on August 11, 2008
During the disinformation campaign that preceded Operation Iraqi Fuq'up, nothing infuriated me more than the anti-France propagandizing. My home is situated on part of the land granted to the Marquis de Lafayette by the US Congress in honor of his service to the fledgling United States of America. Lafayette never lived here in North Florida and sold the land, but the connection signifies the fact denied by American France-bashers: without the help and financial support of France, the United States would not have been able to obtain independence. To provide this help, the Bourbons bankrupted the royal treasury and paved the way for the French Revolution, which, in turn, paved the way for a certain Corsican artillerist to provide a whiff of grapeshot and thereby position himself to sell Louisiana to Thomas Jefferson--and enable a USA that stretched across the continent.
Here's to the "low information voters" who lapped up "freedom fries" in 2003.
posted by rdone at 9:03 PM on August 11, 2008 [5 favorites]
Here's to the "low information voters" who lapped up "freedom fries" in 2003.
posted by rdone at 9:03 PM on August 11, 2008 [5 favorites]
I saw a lot more French jokes / bashing in England than I have in America, really
I asked quite a few people in France if they really didn't like Americans, or if that were more of a stereotype. Almost all of them said Americans were OK, really, it was the English they couldn't stand. Well, there is a history between the two ... But some of the French people I met really didn't like Americans. I live in a resort town now, here in the US, and I can sort of sympathize. Tourists can be annoying after a while.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:03 PM on August 11, 2008
I asked quite a few people in France if they really didn't like Americans, or if that were more of a stereotype. Almost all of them said Americans were OK, really, it was the English they couldn't stand. Well, there is a history between the two ... But some of the French people I met really didn't like Americans. I live in a resort town now, here in the US, and I can sort of sympathize. Tourists can be annoying after a while.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:03 PM on August 11, 2008
I've never heard it called that before.
Is that a euphemism, or are you just happy to see me?
posted by krinklyfig at 9:05 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Is that a euphemism, or are you just happy to see me?
posted by krinklyfig at 9:05 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Moi, j'aime bien les Francias.
Not well enough to actually complete my Francophone edumacation, but avec deux bieres je peut hold my own.
I loves you people!
posted by mwhybark at 9:11 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Not well enough to actually complete my Francophone edumacation, but avec deux bieres je peut hold my own.
I loves you people!
posted by mwhybark at 9:11 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
Given Fox News and Bill O'Reilly's hatred of all things French, it always struck me as weird that the king of right wing radio was the complete opposite.
Silly you, it's just a pose.
posted by dhartung at 9:17 PM on August 11, 2008
Silly you, it's just a pose.
posted by dhartung at 9:17 PM on August 11, 2008
Somewhere is posted (can't for the life of me remember where): "All Americans think the French hate them. All the French think the Americans love them. Both sentiments are incorrect."
Relationships are complex; the more enduring the relationship the more complex. For example, there is a very French characteristic to not admit a fault and this translates poorly into English; there is a very American characteristic to dismiss something different as something worse and this translates poorly into French. With so many characteristics aiming in the same direction, these come up and make knotty problems even for people who are pretty good friends and I speak from personal experience of how jarring such situations can be.
The notation about the French not inviting (soldiers) into their homes made me laugh - the French invite no one (except very close friends, where such a relationship goes back years) into their homes. Americans will have any kind of stray acquaintance over to dinner without thinking twice about it.
I think you will find very little bitterness in the remarks made about French people in the US, just as you find very little bitterness in the remarks made about Americans in France. Comments in newspapers play up the rancor but I think it doesn't exist anywhere nearly as much as is suggested in the press.
posted by jet_silver at 9:21 PM on August 11, 2008
Relationships are complex; the more enduring the relationship the more complex. For example, there is a very French characteristic to not admit a fault and this translates poorly into English; there is a very American characteristic to dismiss something different as something worse and this translates poorly into French. With so many characteristics aiming in the same direction, these come up and make knotty problems even for people who are pretty good friends and I speak from personal experience of how jarring such situations can be.
The notation about the French not inviting (soldiers) into their homes made me laugh - the French invite no one (except very close friends, where such a relationship goes back years) into their homes. Americans will have any kind of stray acquaintance over to dinner without thinking twice about it.
I think you will find very little bitterness in the remarks made about French people in the US, just as you find very little bitterness in the remarks made about Americans in France. Comments in newspapers play up the rancor but I think it doesn't exist anywhere nearly as much as is suggested in the press.
posted by jet_silver at 9:21 PM on August 11, 2008
I think you will find most anti-French sentiment is expressed mostly in jest or as a pose or expressed sincerely only by the most truly ignorant and provincial. It's only when anti-French sentiment is taken seriously by someone "who should know better" that I am honestly shocked by it. For the most part, I generally regard American anti-French attitudes as a sort of "running joke" of American culture.
It's restaurant week here in DC, and it's a good chance to take someone out to a nice restaurant and get a good deal on an excellent meal. As Salmonberry alludes to, let's just say that we're not going to go out for British food.
posted by deanc at 9:34 PM on August 11, 2008
It's restaurant week here in DC, and it's a good chance to take someone out to a nice restaurant and get a good deal on an excellent meal. As Salmonberry alludes to, let's just say that we're not going to go out for British food.
posted by deanc at 9:34 PM on August 11, 2008
I don't understand the problem here. I mean, anti-French sentiment in the US is nothing like anti-American sentiment abroad. The worst thing that has ever happened to a French person as a result of anti-French behavior in America is being called a cheese-eating surrendermonkey. The worst thing that has happened to an American as a result of anti-American behavior is getting killed.
I mean, consider that the "freedom fries" were reverted back to their old name by summer of 2003. One of the guys who was pouring French wine down his toilet in protest? Turned out it was a cheap California red in a French bottle.
Heck, American tourism in France didn't decline in the wake of the war; it's only decline with the weakening of the dollar against the euro.
American eat in French restaurants, have a thing for Provencal colors and style, spent almost $300M on tickets to see Ratatouille... yeah, Americans sure hate those French.
posted by dw at 9:52 PM on August 11, 2008
I mean, consider that the "freedom fries" were reverted back to their old name by summer of 2003. One of the guys who was pouring French wine down his toilet in protest? Turned out it was a cheap California red in a French bottle.
Heck, American tourism in France didn't decline in the wake of the war; it's only decline with the weakening of the dollar against the euro.
American eat in French restaurants, have a thing for Provencal colors and style, spent almost $300M on tickets to see Ratatouille... yeah, Americans sure hate those French.
posted by dw at 9:52 PM on August 11, 2008
One of the funniest bits of French-bashing I heard was from a cousin of mine who said I shouldn't shop at Target because it was owned by the French. Its funny because Target is headquartered in Minnesota, and I figured that this myth must have grown out the custom of referring to the store "Targét". I guess not everybody got the irony in the pronunciation.
posted by mach at 10:27 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mach at 10:27 PM on August 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
France bashing only comes from right wing tools. Such tools will bash any foreign power that doesn't match their fearless leader's goose-step exactly.
Also, the U.S. has no natural obnoxious neighbors, like the France vs. Britain relationship. So we must invent them occasionally.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:35 PM on August 11, 2008
Also, the U.S. has no natural obnoxious neighbors, like the France vs. Britain relationship. So we must invent them occasionally.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:35 PM on August 11, 2008
Oneirokritikos, are you actually thankful that you have a web site that monitors the media for potential insults to France? Would you be worse off not knowing that Fox News or a morning zoo AM radio show made a stupid joke at your expense?
posted by Joybooth at 10:37 PM on August 11, 2008
posted by Joybooth at 10:37 PM on August 11, 2008
Joybooth, as an avid websurfer of (mostly) American websites, I don't need Miquelon to be aware of French Bashing; it is disheartening to follow a blog and enjoy it for months, and then one day fall on the most basic french bashing there is as the post of the day...Granted, I'm really in a tiny minority as Frenchmen go.
posted by Oneirokritikos at 11:05 PM on August 11, 2008
posted by Oneirokritikos at 11:05 PM on August 11, 2008
The worst thing that has ever happened to a French person as a result of anti-French behavior in America is being called a cheese-eating surrendermonkey. The worst thing that has happened to an American as a result of anti-American behavior is getting killed.
Right-wing Americans murder Sikhs and churchgoers. Let's not be too proud that we somehow have the moral steel to not kill Frenchmen as well.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:10 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
Right-wing Americans murder Sikhs and churchgoers. Let's not be too proud that we somehow have the moral steel to not kill Frenchmen as well.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:10 PM on August 11, 2008 [2 favorites]
The worst thing that has ever happened to a French person as a result of anti-French behavior in America is being called a cheese-eating surrendermonkey.
Just as a side note: I realize fully that the Quebecois are not French, but a lot of the same stereotypes on both sides (Anglos are loud and boorish, Quebecois are arrogant, et cetera) seem stuck in the minds of many of the people I encountered in my time there, and tensions between Anglophones and Francophones in Canada have turned violent at times. Fights break out in Montreal bars over speaking one language or another.
This is why I've never understood American France-bashing. America has no real historical history of tension between them. Quite the contrary, actually, up until very recently. Yet in Canada, where Anglophones and Francophones have sometimes fought viciously against each and tensions still exist, for the most part you find that the two groups get alone just fine (provided there's a common language).
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:22 AM on August 12, 2008
Just as a side note: I realize fully that the Quebecois are not French, but a lot of the same stereotypes on both sides (Anglos are loud and boorish, Quebecois are arrogant, et cetera) seem stuck in the minds of many of the people I encountered in my time there, and tensions between Anglophones and Francophones in Canada have turned violent at times. Fights break out in Montreal bars over speaking one language or another.
This is why I've never understood American France-bashing. America has no real historical history of tension between them. Quite the contrary, actually, up until very recently. Yet in Canada, where Anglophones and Francophones have sometimes fought viciously against each and tensions still exist, for the most part you find that the two groups get alone just fine (provided there's a common language).
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:22 AM on August 12, 2008
it is disheartening to follow a blog and enjoy it for months, and then one day fall on the most basic french bashing there is as the post of the day
I've read plenty of stupid French surrender jokes, and while it does act as a good flag letting me know the person making the joke is an idiot, I think you're missing the motivation behind it. The stereotypical American gets 2 weeks of vacation a year, spends a great deal of their waking moments working, and eats bread that is pumped full of high fructose corn syrup. When they are not at the office, they drink shitty beer that is only a step up from water and live in a tiny, ugly little box in a uniformly ugly landscape.
The stereotypical French person gets 5 weeks of vacation, doesn't really put in more than 35 hours at the office, and eats bread that doesn't taste like shit. They drink wine that was poured by god herself, and live in a little château overlooking a lush valley.
The French bashing you see is either jealousy or idiocy, so why let it get to you?
posted by cmonkey at 12:23 AM on August 12, 2008 [9 favorites]
I've read plenty of stupid French surrender jokes, and while it does act as a good flag letting me know the person making the joke is an idiot, I think you're missing the motivation behind it. The stereotypical American gets 2 weeks of vacation a year, spends a great deal of their waking moments working, and eats bread that is pumped full of high fructose corn syrup. When they are not at the office, they drink shitty beer that is only a step up from water and live in a tiny, ugly little box in a uniformly ugly landscape.
The stereotypical French person gets 5 weeks of vacation, doesn't really put in more than 35 hours at the office, and eats bread that doesn't taste like shit. They drink wine that was poured by god herself, and live in a little château overlooking a lush valley.
The French bashing you see is either jealousy or idiocy, so why let it get to you?
posted by cmonkey at 12:23 AM on August 12, 2008 [9 favorites]
Er, America and France have no real history of tension between them, that is.
Previewing first from now on...
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:25 AM on August 12, 2008
Previewing first from now on...
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:25 AM on August 12, 2008
I met an American couple in Rome a few years ago whilst on holiday. Clocking me as English (I'm not, I'm Scottish) they proceeded to try to create a spot of cameraderie with me by making a joke about Waterlooo (why I'm not 100% sure - think they were on a Euro-tour and it made sense to them), bashing on the French like I'd join in... until my girlfriend interjected 'I'm French!'
Awwwwwkward!
FWIW, my take (having visited the US and France many, many times) is that the more nationalistic elements in both societies essentially share many traits... perhaps they're too similar to get along well? Both are certain their country / culture / way of life is the 'best in the world'.
posted by stumcg at 12:31 AM on August 12, 2008
Awwwwwkward!
FWIW, my take (having visited the US and France many, many times) is that the more nationalistic elements in both societies essentially share many traits... perhaps they're too similar to get along well? Both are certain their country / culture / way of life is the 'best in the world'.
posted by stumcg at 12:31 AM on August 12, 2008
I should really do something with parisbusinessreview.com again
posted by jfrancis at 12:56 AM on August 12, 2008
posted by jfrancis at 12:56 AM on August 12, 2008
France is always held out by the right as a country to be admired whenever they want to talk about nuclear power plants.
posted by jfrancis at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2008
posted by jfrancis at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2008
I met an American couple in Rome a few years ago whilst on holiday. Clocking me as English (I'm not, I'm Scottish) they proceeded to try to create a spot of cameraderie with me by making a joke about Waterlooo (why I'm not 100% sure - think they were on a Euro-tour and it made sense to them), bashing on the French like I'd join in... until my girlfriend interjected 'I'm French!'
Awwwwwkward!
I experience this all the time. It is great fun to let the conversation go on at length and then mention my last name. Nobody has a clue because I am completely anglicized as a result of my family part of the great FLQ triggered corporate exodus from Quebec to Ontario when I was three years old. Even more amusing though is when people make anti-Italian or anti-Arab jokes and then look at me and awkwardly say "No offense" because they misjudge my ancestry. I take great pleasure in letting the silence just hang there like a cloud of poisonous gas. This is not because I am French and therefore an asshole. It is because I am an asshole who happens to be French.
posted by srboisvert at 4:23 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Awwwwwkward!
I experience this all the time. It is great fun to let the conversation go on at length and then mention my last name. Nobody has a clue because I am completely anglicized as a result of my family part of the great FLQ triggered corporate exodus from Quebec to Ontario when I was three years old. Even more amusing though is when people make anti-Italian or anti-Arab jokes and then look at me and awkwardly say "No offense" because they misjudge my ancestry. I take great pleasure in letting the silence just hang there like a cloud of poisonous gas. This is not because I am French and therefore an asshole. It is because I am an asshole who happens to be French.
posted by srboisvert at 4:23 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
USA - "If it weren't for us you'd all be talking German now".
France - "If it weren't for us you'd still be a British colony".
So we're all friends now right?
posted by longbaugh at 4:33 AM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
France - "If it weren't for us you'd still be a British colony".
So we're all friends now right?
posted by longbaugh at 4:33 AM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
I take great pleasure in letting the silence just hang there like a cloud of poisonous gas.
That's why, I always tell jokes about French people en Français, à la française. That, however, doesn't make me popular among them.
When I said "French people", I meant, my French professeur and my roomie, who both happen to be loveable souls otherwise.
posted by the cydonian at 5:14 AM on August 12, 2008
That's why, I always tell jokes about French people en Français, à la française. That, however, doesn't make me popular among them.
When I said "French people", I meant, my French professeur and my roomie, who both happen to be loveable souls otherwise.
posted by the cydonian at 5:14 AM on August 12, 2008
Ch'suis cool avec les deux, putain de coing.*
*C'est surprenant, mais cette citation parfaitement cromulente des Bidochon semble être complètement méconnue chez Google. Fuck!
posted by Wolof at 5:49 AM on August 12, 2008
*C'est surprenant, mais cette citation parfaitement cromulente des Bidochon semble être complètement méconnue chez Google. Fuck!
posted by Wolof at 5:49 AM on August 12, 2008
My brother is apparently rabidly anti-French. Overheard him reading his then 5-year old son a Christmas bedtime story a few years ago; when he got to the part about the main character (a Santa stand-in) delivering presents, he had to add "except in France, because nobody likes the French". When he heard I was going to Paris for a conference he told me "nobody should have to go there". I don't understand whether he really feels this way, or whether it's just his way of being a dick, but he seems to enjoy doing it. I don't get it. I'm sure I had a much better time in Paris than he is currently having in Iraq.
Americans who hate the French I largely write off as having no sense of history. Hemingway liked France. That's good enough for me.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:58 AM on August 12, 2008
Americans who hate the French I largely write off as having no sense of history. Hemingway liked France. That's good enough for me.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:58 AM on August 12, 2008
I mean, consider that the "freedom fries" were reverted back to their old name by summer of 2003.
Actually, I saw a restaurant with "freedom fries" just a few weeks ago. But that was the first time I had actually seen French fries labeled that way. Perhaps it was just a strange attempt at humor. I hope so.
posted by musicinmybrain at 6:06 AM on August 12, 2008
Actually, I saw a restaurant with "freedom fries" just a few weeks ago. But that was the first time I had actually seen French fries labeled that way. Perhaps it was just a strange attempt at humor. I hope so.
posted by musicinmybrain at 6:06 AM on August 12, 2008
A local paper recently reported on a guy who sells antique U.S. flags on ebay, who had his account shut down because he refused to sell to people living in France, Iraq, and California (why CA? Because according to him, more flags are burned in CA than in any other state). Apparently ebay allows you to either sell internationally or not, but doesn't allow you to just hate on France. I don't love ebay, but I think they did the right thing with this loon.
posted by MsElaineous at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2008
posted by MsElaineous at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2008
When they are not at the office, [Americans] drink shitty beer that is only a step up from water and live in a tiny, ugly little box in a uniformly ugly landscape.
If you're going to play on generalizations, at least get it right: Americans live in garish, monstrously oversized, ever-growing and shoddily-built eyesores.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:16 AM on August 12, 2008
If you're going to play on generalizations, at least get it right: Americans live in garish, monstrously oversized, ever-growing and shoddily-built eyesores.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:16 AM on August 12, 2008
The freedom fries were one thing. A better emblem for the French-bashing craze is surely the Freedom Tickler.
Here's how it works: You, a man, put on the FREEDOM TICKLER! and approach your willing female. As you're about to enter her, you spooge yourself and a banner reading MISSION ACCOMPLISHED unfurls from the ceiling as celestial trumpets blow. Then a bunch of ex-Delta boys working for Halliburton run in, gut your woman like a trout, and give you a Presidential Medal of Freedom.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:13 AM on August 12, 2008 [5 favorites]
Here's how it works: You, a man, put on the FREEDOM TICKLER! and approach your willing female. As you're about to enter her, you spooge yourself and a banner reading MISSION ACCOMPLISHED unfurls from the ceiling as celestial trumpets blow. Then a bunch of ex-Delta boys working for Halliburton run in, gut your woman like a trout, and give you a Presidential Medal of Freedom.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:13 AM on August 12, 2008 [5 favorites]
In the privacy of their own homes, the French can be savage about the USA.
Even the ones with first hand and positive experience of living in the US will play to the gallery - by heavily implying they were able to appreciate aspects of US life only because they were in an unusually cosmopolitan city.
I'd love to believe it's just a silly, blustering cover for a relationship that is, deep down, more mutually affectionate than not. But I'm dubious!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:18 AM on August 12, 2008
Even the ones with first hand and positive experience of living in the US will play to the gallery - by heavily implying they were able to appreciate aspects of US life only because they were in an unusually cosmopolitan city.
I'd love to believe it's just a silly, blustering cover for a relationship that is, deep down, more mutually affectionate than not. But I'm dubious!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:18 AM on August 12, 2008
Ya know, just because the American culture is vomited across the entire world at the moment does not mean that we have a monopoly on ignorance. It's just that we are ignorant the loudest. You ever hear a Czech talk about a Hungarian? You ever hear Hungarians talk about Romanians? You ever hear a Romanian talk about a gypsy? You ever hear a Puerto Rican talk about a Dominican? I'm sorry but bashing other cultures/peoples is a human thing, not an American thing. Once someone else gets the bullhorn, it'll be their ignorance that people will use to define them.
posted by spicynuts at 8:24 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by spicynuts at 8:24 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
You ever hear a Czech talk about a Hungarian? You ever hear Hungarians talk about Romanians? You ever hear a Romanian talk about a gypsy? You ever hear a Puerto Rican talk about a Dominican?
In all those cases, there are issues of proximity, historical border disputes, and problems of community coexistence that cause those hostilities to come to the fore.
Even as a well-traveled member of the upper-middle class living in cosmopolitan cities who has strong family and personal ties to Europe, I found it uncommon for me to deal with French people on a regular basis until recently when I got a French officemate. When was the last time that any of these people who claim to "hate the french" had any kind of dispute with a French individual or was affected by the French in his community or found himself competing with the French for political power or attention? Almost never.
posted by deanc at 9:47 AM on August 12, 2008
In all those cases, there are issues of proximity, historical border disputes, and problems of community coexistence that cause those hostilities to come to the fore.
Even as a well-traveled member of the upper-middle class living in cosmopolitan cities who has strong family and personal ties to Europe, I found it uncommon for me to deal with French people on a regular basis until recently when I got a French officemate. When was the last time that any of these people who claim to "hate the french" had any kind of dispute with a French individual or was affected by the French in his community or found himself competing with the French for political power or attention? Almost never.
posted by deanc at 9:47 AM on August 12, 2008
When was the last time that any of these people who claim to "hate the french" had any kind of dispute with a French individual or was affected by the French in his community or found himself competing with the French for political power or attention? Almost never.
Deanc,
I'm not sure I follow your point here?
I think we can agree that folk tend to take sport "personally".
Therefore the recent blowhard comments by the French Olympic swimming team captain about thrashing the Americans was certainly taken as a "dispute with a French individual"...wasn't it?
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:33 AM on August 12, 2008
Deanc,
I'm not sure I follow your point here?
I think we can agree that folk tend to take sport "personally".
Therefore the recent blowhard comments by the French Olympic swimming team captain about thrashing the Americans was certainly taken as a "dispute with a French individual"...wasn't it?
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:33 AM on August 12, 2008
my only experience with the french (other than those who cut in line in front of me in airports, elevators and restaurants) has been in the islands of french polynesia. what americans refer to as "tahiti". these islands have been administered by the french for many generations and the indiginous populations, as usual, have suffered their presence with public acceptance and private disgust. the french have detonated nuclear weapons in these islands until just a few years ago and are just beginning to recognize their stupidity in doing so. the catholic church accompanied the french here, and failed to mention birth control to their new found flock and now the islands' population is hugely swelled in the under 25 years of age bracket and there is no way to accomodate them into the workforce.
tahitians, in general, hate the french, but accept their presence as a necessary evil. the best illustraion, i think, is to point out that a cheeseburger and a local beer will cost you 15 american dollars. all this aside, i admire the french for their culture and for being the snarky little shits they are.
posted by kitchenrat at 11:01 AM on August 12, 2008
tahitians, in general, hate the french, but accept their presence as a necessary evil. the best illustraion, i think, is to point out that a cheeseburger and a local beer will cost you 15 american dollars. all this aside, i admire the french for their culture and for being the snarky little shits they are.
posted by kitchenrat at 11:01 AM on August 12, 2008
Having visited Paris a number of times, I am completely baffled at the concept of anti-American sentiment, as I have never experienced the merest hint of it. (Despite my username, I am not French at all and I'm not very fluent.) People are far, far ruder to me in Chicago and New York. In Paris I had a man chase me for a block to return the sunglasses I'd dropped. People struck up conversations with me in elevators (which I usually had to abort since my French was so poor).
Besides, everywhere I went, shops were blasting American music (lots of incongruous stuff like Michael Jackson circa 1983). They have McDonald's and Starbucks, both of which were busy. Clothing stores had NFL jerseys (though the Green Bay Packers colors ended up being pink & yellow or something).
I firmly believe that if you treat someone with respect, you'll be treated with respect in return. French culture is different than American, and if you visit France with an open-minded attitude and at least superficial acceptance of local customs, they will welcome you with open arms.
posted by desjardins at 11:04 AM on August 12, 2008
Besides, everywhere I went, shops were blasting American music (lots of incongruous stuff like Michael Jackson circa 1983). They have McDonald's and Starbucks, both of which were busy. Clothing stores had NFL jerseys (though the Green Bay Packers colors ended up being pink & yellow or something).
I firmly believe that if you treat someone with respect, you'll be treated with respect in return. French culture is different than American, and if you visit France with an open-minded attitude and at least superficial acceptance of local customs, they will welcome you with open arms.
posted by desjardins at 11:04 AM on August 12, 2008
Americans who bash France or the French don't know shit about history or the world.
If it wasn't for France there would be no America. At best we would be a more belligerent and much, much, fatter Canada.
The French people appreciated and understood our experiment. And funded it at no small cost. Our great shame is we never lived up to their expectations.
We go to Paris every year. Every January. I have never encountered this so-called pretension or anti-American bias the French are supposed to have. We have numerous times been fed, housed, and made gloriously drunk by absolute strangers who put up with my butchering their language and knowing next to nothing about their culture. While they, unfortunately largely against their will, know all too much about mine. And they, every time, have refused remuneration or money for this great hospitality.
If anything we could all do with being a little more French. Those people know how to live.
All I can say is: thank you France.
posted by tkchrist at 11:07 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
If it wasn't for France there would be no America. At best we would be a more belligerent and much, much, fatter Canada.
The French people appreciated and understood our experiment. And funded it at no small cost. Our great shame is we never lived up to their expectations.
We go to Paris every year. Every January. I have never encountered this so-called pretension or anti-American bias the French are supposed to have. We have numerous times been fed, housed, and made gloriously drunk by absolute strangers who put up with my butchering their language and knowing next to nothing about their culture. While they, unfortunately largely against their will, know all too much about mine. And they, every time, have refused remuneration or money for this great hospitality.
If anything we could all do with being a little more French. Those people know how to live.
All I can say is: thank you France.
posted by tkchrist at 11:07 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hemingway liked France. That's good enough for me.
You know what other place Hemingway liked?
See?
posted by uncle harold at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2008
You know what other place Hemingway liked?
See?
posted by uncle harold at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2008
The US wouldn't exist without France's help. France started sending weapons to the American colonists in 1776. After the American victory at Saratoga in October 1777 showed that the Americans might be able to win, France entered the war. The French fleet's decisive victory in the Battle of the Chesapeake in September 1781 trapped British General Cornwallis at Yorktown, where he surrendered to American and French forces in October 1781.
General Lafayette was one of George Washington's closest advisors during the Revolution. When American troops entered Paris in World War I, Captain Charles E. Stanton said, "Lafayette, we are here" in acknowledgment of France's help.
Except maybe for leftover hurt feelings from the Quasi-War.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:22 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
General Lafayette was one of George Washington's closest advisors during the Revolution. When American troops entered Paris in World War I, Captain Charles E. Stanton said, "Lafayette, we are here" in acknowledgment of France's help.
I regret I cannot speak to the good people of France in the beautiful language of their own fair country.
The fact cannot be forgotten that your nation was our friend when America was struggling for existence, when a handful of brave and patriotic people were determined to uphold the rights their Creator gave them -- that France in the person of Lafayette came to our aid in words and deed.
It would be ingratitude not to remember this and America defaults no obligations...
Therefore it is with loving pride we drape the colors in tribute of respect to this citizen of your great Republic, and here and now in the shadow of the illustrious dead we pledge our hearts and our honor in carrying this war to successful issue.
LAFAYETTE -- WE ARE HERE !
America and France have no real history of tension between them, that is.
Except maybe for leftover hurt feelings from the Quasi-War.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:22 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
If it wasn't for France there would be no America. At best we would be a more belligerent and much, much, fatter Canada.
No, we wouldn't even be. The French, Spanish, British, and Russians would have fought over the West, while the East Coast would mostly be like Canada post-1867. No Civil War, but a lot of battles over the West. The only thing that would be the same would be the ultimate subjugation and destruction of Native American tribes.
The French people appreciated and understood our experiment. And funded it at no small cost.
We were a pawn in the larger Anglo-French conflict, that's all. I wouldn't say they "funded our experiment," more invested in it at a critical juncture in order to score some points on the Brits.
Our great shame is we never lived up to their expectations.
You mean we never went through a bloody revolution, counter-revolution, reign of terror, anti-religious fervor, kings, emperors, winter march, defeat at the hands of our arch-enemies, generations of political doldrum swinging between inbred royalism and inept democracy, state-sponsored anti-Semitism, and getting bailed out of two wars by a foreign power?
Yeah, sorry we didn't live up to that. But do remember as well that what started in the US was exported back into France, so maybe they haven't lived up to our expectations, no? I mean, it took them until De Gaulle to have a solid, lasting democratic republic.
As I see it, France bailed us out in the Revolutionary War, and owe them a debt for that. A debt we paid initially in the trenches of Belgium, and then paid in full with both blood on the beaches of Normandy and cash in the form of the Marshall Plan. We're all square. The "anti-French sentiment" isn't any worse than the sort of stuff the Daily Mail or Sun throw up every time the England and France play. In fact, it's a little better. When was the last time any American paper used "Frog" on their front page?
posted by dw at 2:07 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
No, we wouldn't even be. The French, Spanish, British, and Russians would have fought over the West, while the East Coast would mostly be like Canada post-1867. No Civil War, but a lot of battles over the West. The only thing that would be the same would be the ultimate subjugation and destruction of Native American tribes.
The French people appreciated and understood our experiment. And funded it at no small cost.
We were a pawn in the larger Anglo-French conflict, that's all. I wouldn't say they "funded our experiment," more invested in it at a critical juncture in order to score some points on the Brits.
Our great shame is we never lived up to their expectations.
You mean we never went through a bloody revolution, counter-revolution, reign of terror, anti-religious fervor, kings, emperors, winter march, defeat at the hands of our arch-enemies, generations of political doldrum swinging between inbred royalism and inept democracy, state-sponsored anti-Semitism, and getting bailed out of two wars by a foreign power?
Yeah, sorry we didn't live up to that. But do remember as well that what started in the US was exported back into France, so maybe they haven't lived up to our expectations, no? I mean, it took them until De Gaulle to have a solid, lasting democratic republic.
As I see it, France bailed us out in the Revolutionary War, and owe them a debt for that. A debt we paid initially in the trenches of Belgium, and then paid in full with both blood on the beaches of Normandy and cash in the form of the Marshall Plan. We're all square. The "anti-French sentiment" isn't any worse than the sort of stuff the Daily Mail or Sun throw up every time the England and France play. In fact, it's a little better. When was the last time any American paper used "Frog" on their front page?
posted by dw at 2:07 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
With a nickname like mine I had to join in!
I've read a lot of online discussions about French bashing and the topic always drifts towards Anti-American sentiment in France and how they deserve the hatred. Why is that? Do you need an excuse to hate the French?
Most of the French hostility towards the U.S.A. is focused on your government, especially when it is belligerent. There is also a political antagonism caused by the total opposition of American and French socio-economic systems. Communism in France was quite prevalent before and after the Second World War; all eyes were turned to the East and the French have always leaned to the left ever since. Another notable difference is how culture and art are revered in France (no matter its country of origin) whereas business and entertainment prevail in U.S.A. And those reasons are valid to the Americans too.
Having said that American brands are very popular in France, black youngsters follow the NBA, France is the second Hip Hop market in the world, American cinema regularly tops the French box office, old French rock stars like Johnny Hallyday keep professing their love for American culture, which is everywhere and cannot be avoided: Last year 64% of all movies released in France were foreign (and you can bet a large majority of them were American) when this figure is only 5% in U.S.A.
Now then, Anti-French sentiment hasn't been studied much because it's a niche subject and doesn't affect either parties very much. French have always been the butt of jokes even when they kept away from trouble and the French government didn't have impudence to question the American supremacy. There isn't a visible French(-speaking) community in U.S.A., they're stuck in Canada, therefore it's politically correct to bash a Frenchman. Italian and Spanish speaking citizens are out of reach unfortunately. Imagine David Letterman telling a joke about how the Hispanic people stink of onions live on air?
posted by surrendering monkey at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2008
I've read a lot of online discussions about French bashing and the topic always drifts towards Anti-American sentiment in France and how they deserve the hatred. Why is that? Do you need an excuse to hate the French?
Most of the French hostility towards the U.S.A. is focused on your government, especially when it is belligerent. There is also a political antagonism caused by the total opposition of American and French socio-economic systems. Communism in France was quite prevalent before and after the Second World War; all eyes were turned to the East and the French have always leaned to the left ever since. Another notable difference is how culture and art are revered in France (no matter its country of origin) whereas business and entertainment prevail in U.S.A. And those reasons are valid to the Americans too.
Having said that American brands are very popular in France, black youngsters follow the NBA, France is the second Hip Hop market in the world, American cinema regularly tops the French box office, old French rock stars like Johnny Hallyday keep professing their love for American culture, which is everywhere and cannot be avoided: Last year 64% of all movies released in France were foreign (and you can bet a large majority of them were American) when this figure is only 5% in U.S.A.
Now then, Anti-French sentiment hasn't been studied much because it's a niche subject and doesn't affect either parties very much. French have always been the butt of jokes even when they kept away from trouble and the French government didn't have impudence to question the American supremacy. There isn't a visible French(-speaking) community in U.S.A., they're stuck in Canada, therefore it's politically correct to bash a Frenchman. Italian and Spanish speaking citizens are out of reach unfortunately. Imagine David Letterman telling a joke about how the Hispanic people stink of onions live on air?
posted by surrendering monkey at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2008
When was the last time any American paper used "Frog" on their front page?
The term "Surrender Monkeys" is much more endearing?
I guess it makes all okay that major US media outlets were granted the opportunity to issue "French Fry" bans becuase the UK is is so much more bigoted? Whatever.
The UK and France at the very least had a long history of open warfare and cultural hostility for several centuries. So I guess I can kinda see the animosity. But between the US and France? Makes no sense at all. And our involvement in WWII and WWI were also very self interested my friend. And what honest good will motivated our entry into WWII was resisted at every turn by the US power establishment. We weren't "rescuing" anybody in their minds.
Nah. France rules bud.
posted by tkchrist at 6:18 PM on August 12, 2008
The term "Surrender Monkeys" is much more endearing?
I guess it makes all okay that major US media outlets were granted the opportunity to issue "French Fry" bans becuase the UK is is so much more bigoted? Whatever.
The UK and France at the very least had a long history of open warfare and cultural hostility for several centuries. So I guess I can kinda see the animosity. But between the US and France? Makes no sense at all. And our involvement in WWII and WWI were also very self interested my friend. And what honest good will motivated our entry into WWII was resisted at every turn by the US power establishment. We weren't "rescuing" anybody in their minds.
Nah. France rules bud.
posted by tkchrist at 6:18 PM on August 12, 2008
Il y a des Francophones ici, Monsieur Singe, au Louisiane, grace a dieu. Et les Francophones de Lousiane sont un des elements peut-etre cache mais toujours et le meme tres important aux traditions de musique des Etats-Unis. Je veut dire, c'est possiblement sujet de debat, mai je veux dire: sans Francophones au Sud des Etats-Unis, il n'y a pas de blues, pas de rock.
(I did note upthread I was not the greatest student of the tongue. Please to forgive my butcheries.)
posted by mwhybark at 7:16 PM on August 12, 2008
(I did note upthread I was not the greatest student of the tongue. Please to forgive my butcheries.)
posted by mwhybark at 7:16 PM on August 12, 2008
Oh and a high-fivin-white-guy WHAP to my man Todd. Meetup next weekend?
posted by mwhybark at 7:18 PM on August 12, 2008
posted by mwhybark at 7:18 PM on August 12, 2008
And our involvement in WWII and WWI were also very self interested my friend.
So? La Fayette is a bit close to my heart, being from Rhode Island and all, and of course the French Army and Navy had a huge impact on the war and the American victory, but don't pretend that the French Crown's self-interest was somehow different or less present than American self-interest.
I love France, enjoyed being there, and bear no animus to the French, and admire many things about their nation and state (but certianly not all things,) but it's absurd and reflexive anti-Americanism to act as if we have somehow not lived up to French expectations or are somehow forever in their debt to their greatness.
posted by Snyder at 7:20 PM on August 12, 2008
So? La Fayette is a bit close to my heart, being from Rhode Island and all, and of course the French Army and Navy had a huge impact on the war and the American victory, but don't pretend that the French Crown's self-interest was somehow different or less present than American self-interest.
I love France, enjoyed being there, and bear no animus to the French, and admire many things about their nation and state (but certianly not all things,) but it's absurd and reflexive anti-Americanism to act as if we have somehow not lived up to French expectations or are somehow forever in their debt to their greatness.
posted by Snyder at 7:20 PM on August 12, 2008
hey, isn't the Statue of Liberty kind of a 'big deal' to US Americans? yet it was agift from France to the USA.....bloody ingrate americans.
posted by mary8nne at 6:04 AM on August 13, 2008
posted by mary8nne at 6:04 AM on August 13, 2008
As the Anti - American sentiment is very common among people I know (I mean here, in France), I wonder most of the time who are the Americans that people talk about ? Are they American people from nowadays or Americans from the past (but you can consider it's isn't native Americans, since the way they were portrayed in the American movie industry isn't taken seriously anymore). Do they complain about their politicians, the oligarchy (mis-)leading their government, rednecks, the whole American way of life (inducing such an extreme pollution) and thus each and every American ? Do they complain about the corporations trying to put copyrights on the seeds or the ones which led the american army overseas to seek profit ? Is this resentment aimed at the film industry which provides hours and hours of slime oozing out (thank you Frank) of the various screens in and out of our homes ?
I really don't know.
I do appreciate some Americans (and people from G.B too) but because of who they are and what they think, not because they are this or that.
posted by nicolin at 7:53 AM on August 13, 2008
I really don't know.
I do appreciate some Americans (and people from G.B too) but because of who they are and what they think, not because they are this or that.
posted by nicolin at 7:53 AM on August 13, 2008
It seems (from my point of view as a French Canadian) that most people calling the French anti-american are.. French. For instance, books like L'antiaméricanisme : Critique d'un prêt-à-penser rétrograde et chauvin (but sir, how do you really feel about antiamericanism) and Revel's L'obsession anti-américaine : Son fonctionnement - Ses causes - Ses inconséquences.
But often, I find these pourfendeurs de l'antiaméricanisme trying to conflate a bunch of different view together in order to further their own agendas. For instance, they'll try to put reasoned criticism of American foreign or social policy in the same basket as Muslim fundamentalism.
Another weird thing about the French and the United States are the "road trip" books that come out in France every so often: some French dude goes around the US for a few months, then writes a book about how weird and exotic the US is, making sweeping generalizations from one or two anectodes. (The lastest example of that trend: Benard-Henri Lévy's American Vertigo)
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2008
But often, I find these pourfendeurs de l'antiaméricanisme trying to conflate a bunch of different view together in order to further their own agendas. For instance, they'll try to put reasoned criticism of American foreign or social policy in the same basket as Muslim fundamentalism.
Another weird thing about the French and the United States are the "road trip" books that come out in France every so often: some French dude goes around the US for a few months, then writes a book about how weird and exotic the US is, making sweeping generalizations from one or two anectodes. (The lastest example of that trend: Benard-Henri Lévy's American Vertigo)
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2008
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posted by Oneirokritikos at 8:20 PM on August 11, 2008