Palin, pancakes, and the straight talk express
September 14, 2008 5:32 AM Subscribe
Have the wheels come off the straight talk express? At least one sleeping giant woke up today: the NYT finally gives Sarah Palin a thorough vetting and the results aren't pretty. The McCain campaign's aggressive - and many say dishonest - tactics in promoting Palin may have sparked the beginnings of a media backlash. Camp McCain's reaction: We don't care and intend to stay on offense. And about that offense, they will soon have some help: Group With Swift Boat Alumni Readies Ads Attacking Obama. How low will things go? At this week's Values Voters Summit, 'Obama Waffles' with racial stereotypes were all the rage.
The flat out lie approach to politicking seems to be a new one, even for a presidential election.
Unfortunately it seems to be working.
What a mess.
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:45 AM on September 14, 2008
Unfortunately it seems to be working.
What a mess.
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:45 AM on September 14, 2008
Yay McCain! He lifted an overturned truck off a trapped baby many years ago–THAT BABBY WAS ME!!!11!
Also he has eerie mind powers.
On a serious note, what's the deal with emigrating to the Netherlands? Is there a height requirement?
posted by Mister_A at 5:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Also he has eerie mind powers.
On a serious note, what's the deal with emigrating to the Netherlands? Is there a height requirement?
posted by Mister_A at 5:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Someone should ask Lou Dobbs if his wife really did love the waffles.
Oddly enough, the Lou Dobbs post disappeared from the waffle makers' blog shortly after Think Progress originally reported on it. Highly specific and coincidental server failure, I guess.
posted by maudlin at 6:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Oddly enough, the Lou Dobbs post disappeared from the waffle makers' blog shortly after Think Progress originally reported on it. Highly specific and coincidental server failure, I guess.
posted by maudlin at 6:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Meh.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2008
So, I went to Drudge this morning, also Google news...guess the rest of the news media hasn't noticed the Time article yet.
posted by konolia at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by konolia at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Good.
These vile people need to be driven forcefully back into the darkness, and barring that into the sea.
I want her to slink back to the hole she snarked her way out of and spend tending to nothing more pressing than whether to let the liquor stores stay open a little longer during nightday.
Put them on their heels and dont let up.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
These vile people need to be driven forcefully back into the darkness, and barring that into the sea.
I want her to slink back to the hole she snarked her way out of and spend tending to nothing more pressing than whether to let the liquor stores stay open a little longer during nightday.
Put them on their heels and dont let up.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
spend the rest of her days that was sposed to read.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2008
From this AP article:
"But in the last two election cycles, the very notion that the facts matter seems to be under assault," said Michael X. Delli Carpini, an authority on political ads at the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg School for Communication. "Candidates and their consultants seem to have learned that as long as you don't back down from your charges or claims, they will stick in the minds of voters regardless of their accuracy or at a minimum, what the truth is will remain murky, a matter of opinion rather than fact."
posted by davar at 6:04 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
"But in the last two election cycles, the very notion that the facts matter seems to be under assault," said Michael X. Delli Carpini, an authority on political ads at the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg School for Communication. "Candidates and their consultants seem to have learned that as long as you don't back down from your charges or claims, they will stick in the minds of voters regardless of their accuracy or at a minimum, what the truth is will remain murky, a matter of opinion rather than fact."
posted by davar at 6:04 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, Obama is floundering and can't raise enough money -- oh, wait.
Senator Barack Obama raised $66 million in the month of August, making it his best month ever and the best in American political history, an aide said Sunday morning. ...
An Obama aide said the campaign added 500,000 new donors to its rolls in August. The new figure -- shattering his previous record of $55 million -- also demonstrates how the increasingly heated, nasty race has energized Obama's fundraising, and raises expectations that he will raise that much or more in the next two months.
posted by maudlin at 6:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Senator Barack Obama raised $66 million in the month of August, making it his best month ever and the best in American political history, an aide said Sunday morning. ...
An Obama aide said the campaign added 500,000 new donors to its rolls in August. The new figure -- shattering his previous record of $55 million -- also demonstrates how the increasingly heated, nasty race has energized Obama's fundraising, and raises expectations that he will raise that much or more in the next two months.
posted by maudlin at 6:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Why doesn't Barrack Obama lie more often?
This is exactly what's so puzzling about Obama's strategy — why is he paying any attention to the fact-checkers? So far, McCain has seen little blowback from lying. Polls show that he's perceived as more "honest and trustworthy" than Obama and that the public believes his claim that Obama would raise taxes on the middle class. When MediaCurves showed the Obama-called-Palin-a-pig ad to a focus group of women, many came out thinking that Barack Obama had a gender bias.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:11 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
This is exactly what's so puzzling about Obama's strategy — why is he paying any attention to the fact-checkers? So far, McCain has seen little blowback from lying. Polls show that he's perceived as more "honest and trustworthy" than Obama and that the public believes his claim that Obama would raise taxes on the middle class. When MediaCurves showed the Obama-called-Palin-a-pig ad to a focus group of women, many came out thinking that Barack Obama had a gender bias.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:11 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hope that the American electorate has finally had enough of being taken for granted as mindless and spineless, and I hope that we have learned to see through the ridiculous double-speak of our politicians, where "straight talk" means carefully crafted public statements, clandestine policy meetings, and paranoiac control over public information. The question I am fairly certain we will hear from Sen. Obama, while he may paraphase it, is this: "Are you better off today than you were eight years ago?" There is no getting around that obvious answer, and there is no way for the Republican party to disavow responsibility for the dreadful state of this country. That is the question that won the election in 1980, and may well turn this year's election. Obama is smart, and he will get on the stump and remind the voters that voting for the elephants brought the disasters of the last eight years.
posted by Mister_A at 6:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 6:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh joy. If the national campaign is going to head to the bottom like this, I can't wait to see what bile the local party droids are going to roll-out "unofficially".
posted by Thorzdad at 6:17 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:17 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Why doesn't Barrack Obama lie more often?
Because that's not the campaign he's running, and I respect him for it.
posted by graventy at 6:18 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Because that's not the campaign he's running, and I respect him for it.
posted by graventy at 6:18 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Alaska rallies against Sarah Palin.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by madamjujujive at 6:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Pretty weak stuff, that Times piece. The Times supports the Obama campaign not be directly influencing voters -- no swing voters actually read it -- but by trying to create pro-Obama story-lines for the television news that swing voters do see. Television news has already decided that their viewers like Palin. They could undecide that, of course, but it would take more than this sort of inside-baseball to make that move.
I doubt that the Times doesn't recognize this, which is why they dumped the story so early. I'm sure they're devoting a lot more time to figuring out how Obama will be best served by the big Keating 5 piece, the big how-nasty-is-the-Arizona-beer-business piece, and the create-internecine-conflict piece on the nasty things McCain has said about Bush and social conservatives.
As it should be, McCain's strategy needs to be to ignore it all and keep directing polite fire on Obama while third parties direct the more impolite fire. Television news likes a winner, and as long as Obama keeps weak, they won't pile on McCain the way the Times would like.
posted by MattD at 6:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I doubt that the Times doesn't recognize this, which is why they dumped the story so early. I'm sure they're devoting a lot more time to figuring out how Obama will be best served by the big Keating 5 piece, the big how-nasty-is-the-Arizona-beer-business piece, and the create-internecine-conflict piece on the nasty things McCain has said about Bush and social conservatives.
As it should be, McCain's strategy needs to be to ignore it all and keep directing polite fire on Obama while third parties direct the more impolite fire. Television news likes a winner, and as long as Obama keeps weak, they won't pile on McCain the way the Times would like.
posted by MattD at 6:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hope that the American electorate isn't actually mindless and spineless. I fear it may be.
Both sides have spent a long time picking on John Kerry and Al Gore for what worthless, wimpy candidates they were. We're beginning to do the same with Obama. Here's the problem: The American people made the wrong decision. They chose the worse candidate in 2000, and for poor reasons. Then they did it again.
The collective thought process of our nation is chaotic, gut-level, poorly reasoned. I accept it at a root level that there is some core wisdom in the American electorate, that truth will out and the good guys will win someday. But what if it isn't true? What if Gore and Kerry weren't wine-sipping nancy boys and brainiacs but were actually good people who lost to worse ones?
I think of Obama as the best presidential candidate of my lifetime. Democrats are rushing to be the first in line to be ashamed of him.
posted by argybarg at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [17 favorites]
Both sides have spent a long time picking on John Kerry and Al Gore for what worthless, wimpy candidates they were. We're beginning to do the same with Obama. Here's the problem: The American people made the wrong decision. They chose the worse candidate in 2000, and for poor reasons. Then they did it again.
The collective thought process of our nation is chaotic, gut-level, poorly reasoned. I accept it at a root level that there is some core wisdom in the American electorate, that truth will out and the good guys will win someday. But what if it isn't true? What if Gore and Kerry weren't wine-sipping nancy boys and brainiacs but were actually good people who lost to worse ones?
I think of Obama as the best presidential candidate of my lifetime. Democrats are rushing to be the first in line to be ashamed of him.
posted by argybarg at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [17 favorites]
Speaking of TV, you'll know that Obama is well and truly toast if Oprah is forced to reverse herself and invite Palin onto the show before the election. Not saying that will happen, but Oprah didn't get as rich as she is by riding a losing horse all the way to the finish line.
posted by MattD at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MattD at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2008
One picture of Sarah Palin's face undoes 10,000 words of expose on her goofy governorship. The woman looks fantastic. Her face is the perfectly proportioned expression of the "golden mean." The eyes, the cheekbones, the mouth, the neck have a powerful appeal that make objective or hostile reaction very difficult. I think she's a nut, but I can't get enough of her. That face is like food. Its proportions must fit some atavistic emotional receptors to a T. And speaking of food, if Democrats can somehow get her to gain 15-20 pounds over the next month or so, her candidacy will drop like a stone. Fatten up that face. Those are the cheekbones and jaw of a naturally heavyset gal. Fifteen pounds is all that stands between goddess and glob, lovely and loutish. And for heaven's sake MSM, keep her picture out of the papers and off TV!
posted by Faze at 6:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
posted by Faze at 6:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Alaska rallies against Sarah Palin.
Here is a blog post with pictures.
Never, have I seen anything like it in my 17 and a half years living in Anchorage. The organizers had someone walk the rally with a counter, and they clicked off well over 1400 people (not including the 90 counter-demonstrators). This was the biggest political rally ever, in the history of the state. I was absolutely stunned. The second most amazing thing is how many people honked and gave the thumbs up as they drove by. And even those that didn’t honk looked wide-eyed and awe-struck at the huge crowd that was growing by the minute. This just doesn’t happen here. [...] So, if you’ve been doing the math… Yes. The Alaska Women Reject Palin rally was significantly bigger than Palin’s rally that got all the national media coverage!
posted by davar at 6:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [16 favorites]
Here is a blog post with pictures.
Never, have I seen anything like it in my 17 and a half years living in Anchorage. The organizers had someone walk the rally with a counter, and they clicked off well over 1400 people (not including the 90 counter-demonstrators). This was the biggest political rally ever, in the history of the state. I was absolutely stunned. The second most amazing thing is how many people honked and gave the thumbs up as they drove by. And even those that didn’t honk looked wide-eyed and awe-struck at the huge crowd that was growing by the minute. This just doesn’t happen here. [...] So, if you’ve been doing the math… Yes. The Alaska Women Reject Palin rally was significantly bigger than Palin’s rally that got all the national media coverage!
posted by davar at 6:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [16 favorites]
The problems seems to be that no matter what comes out of a candidate's mouth, a certain proportion of the population only hears one thing. For example Sarah Palin's interview would sound like this to some:
Gibson: What is your insight on Russia...
Palin: Abortion. Abortion..... Abortion.
Gibson: Do you think you're ready to step in to the Presidency if needed considering your experience?
Palin: Abortion. AborTION.
posted by Eekacat at 6:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Gibson: What is your insight on Russia...
Palin: Abortion. Abortion..... Abortion.
Gibson: Do you think you're ready to step in to the Presidency if needed considering your experience?
Palin: Abortion. AborTION.
posted by Eekacat at 6:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Her face is the perfectly proportioned expression of the "golden mean."
The proportions might be golden, but the eyes and mouth are definitely mean.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:39 AM on September 14, 2008 [24 favorites]
The proportions might be golden, but the eyes and mouth are definitely mean.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:39 AM on September 14, 2008 [24 favorites]
YouTube Compendium of McCain Lies
McCain on the View
Pork
Bears, Crabs, Seals
Alaskan news covers the Bridge to Nowhere
More Here
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:47 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
McCain on the View
Pork
Bears, Crabs, Seals
Alaskan news covers the Bridge to Nowhere
More Here
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:47 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Eekacat, you're right about the single-issue right-to-life voters, but they aren't the problem; that ship has long since sailed for the Dems. The problem is that other people who by and large support choice, do not run international oil conglomerates or play major league baseball, and spend a huge portion of their income on energy and healthcare may vote once again for the wrong guy because He's Not Black™ and because they actually believe in the winnability of the various Wars on Concepts™, most famously the War on Terror®.
That's what happened in 2004, but I really do think that the fact that people are paying through the nose for energy and healthcare changes the equation; regular, non-political people are hurting financially and they know who to blame, even if they don't know why. If Obama wins, it will be largely on "throw the bums out" sentiment.
posted by Mister_A at 6:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
That's what happened in 2004, but I really do think that the fact that people are paying through the nose for energy and healthcare changes the equation; regular, non-political people are hurting financially and they know who to blame, even if they don't know why. If Obama wins, it will be largely on "throw the bums out" sentiment.
posted by Mister_A at 6:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I know I shouldn't be dumbstruck by a fact of human nature, but I am. McCain can look like a lump of oatmeal-cookie dough and no one is particularly moved to comment except in passing, even though he's far from the George Eads type he was way back when; no one seems to pay attention to the fact that Obama has the physique of a runner and a slightly neotenous face, but Palin happens to have cheekbones she didn't earn and people go all gobsmacked and ignore her incompetence, croneyism, ignorance, and extremism. Just put a Harriet Miers mask on her (or, if you prefer, Madeline Albright) and see if it makes a difference to your tihnking.
posted by Peach at 6:49 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Peach at 6:49 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
This is exactly what's so puzzling about Obama's strategy — why is he paying any attention to the fact-checkers? So far, McCain has seen little blowback from lying.
McCain is not heavily supported by fact-checking blog readers. Many of those Obama supporters would stay home if he started behaving as McCain is. Losing your base is just as damaging as losing the middle ground. McCain's base sees lying as a necessary and courageous tactic to gain power.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
McCain is not heavily supported by fact-checking blog readers. Many of those Obama supporters would stay home if he started behaving as McCain is. Losing your base is just as damaging as losing the middle ground. McCain's base sees lying as a necessary and courageous tactic to gain power.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Are you kidding? Oprah actually inviting her on would be a critical hit. The entire angle the McCain camp is pushing is whining that "the media" is against Palin. They don't actually want anyone to interview her.
Nope. Oprah shouldn't have Palin on unless she has all the candidates on. If she has Palin only, she'll look, well, deferential, no matter what questions she asks. And Palin doesn't get her dessert until she's talked to a few more real journalists, like the hosts of The View. Then they can loan their pairs to the rest of the media.
posted by maudlin at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Nope. Oprah shouldn't have Palin on unless she has all the candidates on. If she has Palin only, she'll look, well, deferential, no matter what questions she asks. And Palin doesn't get her dessert until she's talked to a few more real journalists, like the hosts of The View. Then they can loan their pairs to the rest of the media.
posted by maudlin at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
The American Idol candidate... Thumbs down from Ebert, I guess.
posted by jaronson at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by jaronson at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2008
The central issues of this campaign have become: A) Sarah Palin is totally hot; and B) Sarah Palin stands up for kick-ass smalltown values.
My aunt says: "Isn't she great? She's just out there with her guns. She's a breath of fresh air." That's about it. Like watching reality TV.
There may be some way of compelling people who think that way to move towards making reasoned decisions. It would certainly take more time than we have in one election cycle, that's for sure. In the meantime, the Stupid Party wins again, it seems.
posted by argybarg at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2008
My aunt says: "Isn't she great? She's just out there with her guns. She's a breath of fresh air." That's about it. Like watching reality TV.
There may be some way of compelling people who think that way to move towards making reasoned decisions. It would certainly take more time than we have in one election cycle, that's for sure. In the meantime, the Stupid Party wins again, it seems.
posted by argybarg at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2008
Forgot to add: No one, including my aunt, would think she was a "breath of fresh air" if she looked like Janet Reno or Claire McKaskill. Our collective faith in the power of beautiful people to make the world beautiful is boundless.
posted by argybarg at 7:07 AM on September 14, 2008 [30 favorites]
posted by argybarg at 7:07 AM on September 14, 2008 [30 favorites]
I would like to see real campaign reform–deliberately spreading lies about your opponent on national TV is not something you should be allowed to get away with. This is one more reason that McCain, who made his national reputation fighting for campaign reform, disgusts me more than Bush II. It's the hypocrisy, stupid.
posted by Mister_A at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2008
The bad news: FiveThirtyEight's meticulously-crafted electoral predictor says Obama is significantly behind, following a post-convention bounce for McCain.
The good news: FiveThirtyEight says that this McCain bounce almost exactly follows historical trends for post-convention bounces, and when things return to equilibrium Obama is likely to have drawn even.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
The good news: FiveThirtyEight says that this McCain bounce almost exactly follows historical trends for post-convention bounces, and when things return to equilibrium Obama is likely to have drawn even.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Isn't she great? She's just out there with her guns. She's a breath of fresh air."
your aunt forgot to add:
"Brought to you by Carl's, Jr.™"
As to the Times article, in GOP v. 2008 fashion, while it may be true that Palin did throw out the old bums when she assumed her post as Governor, which establishes her "maverick" bona fides. However, they neglected to mention that she filled many of this well paid and powerful positions with her high school buddies from Wasilla. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
I'd say she's less like George W. Bush than she is the second coming of Dick Cheney, who despite his (ahem) massive failings, at least he had a set of cronies that were nominally qualified to manage large government bureaucracies.
posted by psmealey at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
your aunt forgot to add:
"Brought to you by Carl's, Jr.™"
As to the Times article, in GOP v. 2008 fashion, while it may be true that Palin did throw out the old bums when she assumed her post as Governor, which establishes her "maverick" bona fides. However, they neglected to mention that she filled many of this well paid and powerful positions with her high school buddies from Wasilla. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
I'd say she's less like George W. Bush than she is the second coming of Dick Cheney, who despite his (ahem) massive failings, at least he had a set of cronies that were nominally qualified to manage large government bureaucracies.
posted by psmealey at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Forgot to add: No one, including my aunt, would think she was a "breath of fresh air" if she looked like Janet Reno or Claire McKaskill. Our collective faith in the power of beautiful people to make the world beautiful is boundless.
Yes, I haven't seen talked about much how the choice of Palin addresses Obama's attractiveness advantage over McCain.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yes, I haven't seen talked about much how the choice of Palin addresses Obama's attractiveness advantage over McCain.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bush did not win the election fair and square either time. The majority of the voters, not to mention eligible voters who did not vote, never wanted Bush. That said, Palin's pat answers to everything and her self-described small town thinking doubtless strikes a chord with many people.
"What you and I know is that anyone who actually wants to be President of the Galaxy must by all means be prevented from doing so." - The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy (paraphrased).
posted by AppleSeed at 7:13 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
"What you and I know is that anyone who actually wants to be President of the Galaxy must by all means be prevented from doing so." - The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy (paraphrased).
posted by AppleSeed at 7:13 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
In the meantime, the Stupid Party wins again, it seems.
In what respect, Charlie?
Time to trade in my old thread for a younger, faster-loading one.
posted by cortex at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
In what respect, Charlie?
Time to trade in my old thread for a younger, faster-loading one.
posted by cortex at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
Palin is an absolutely ridiculous person, and the stories of her actual governing style are chilling. Still, I have to say, I'm worried by the effect she is having on the race in the final stretch.
We're still going to win this, right? Right?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2008
We're still going to win this, right? Right?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2008
FiveThirtyEight says that this McCain bounce almost exactly follows historical trends for post-convention bounces, and when things return to equilibrium Obama is likely to have drawn even.
The bad news: Given the opposing candidate, the drawn out war, and the collapsing economy, Obama should be ahead by 15%.
McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a very long time, and the political and economic situation is a disaster for the GOP.
And yet, discounting bounces, McCain is running neck and neck.
Sports analogy: Number #1 Michigan is going into the 2nd half tied with Division 2 Appalachian State University. You don't celebrate the tie at the half, you seriously look at how many wheels have fallen off the bus.
posted by eriko at 7:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
The bad news: Given the opposing candidate, the drawn out war, and the collapsing economy, Obama should be ahead by 15%.
McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a very long time, and the political and economic situation is a disaster for the GOP.
And yet, discounting bounces, McCain is running neck and neck.
Sports analogy: Number #1 Michigan is going into the 2nd half tied with Division 2 Appalachian State University. You don't celebrate the tie at the half, you seriously look at how many wheels have fallen off the bus.
posted by eriko at 7:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
While we are panicking it is worth remembering that the debates have not occurred yet. At some point Obama and McCain are going to stand on a stage together, and I'm guessing that will be a very widely viewed event. I envision massive milkshake drinkage will be the result.
And around the same time, Palin will have to appear opposite Joe Biden, another person with bona fide small town down-home cred and three times her IQ.
I believe the end of McCain's chances will be dated from that point.
posted by localroger at 7:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
And around the same time, Palin will have to appear opposite Joe Biden, another person with bona fide small town down-home cred and three times her IQ.
I believe the end of McCain's chances will be dated from that point.
posted by localroger at 7:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Great job assembling this post. It ought to be put into the wiki as an example of how to properly post politics to mefi.
As for the substance, I think it is clear that we are getting more Karl Rove and less John McCain. Even a lot of Republicans I know are disgusted with McCain. It's not like they are going vote Obama or anything, but they are quite shocked and dismayed at his recent tactics. He promised a clean campaign and given how he has run previous campaigns many people believed him. This incredible willingness to outright lie is not good.
posted by caddis at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
As for the substance, I think it is clear that we are getting more Karl Rove and less John McCain. Even a lot of Republicans I know are disgusted with McCain. It's not like they are going vote Obama or anything, but they are quite shocked and dismayed at his recent tactics. He promised a clean campaign and given how he has run previous campaigns many people believed him. This incredible willingness to outright lie is not good.
posted by caddis at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
"We're still going to win this, right? Right?"
Well, here's my answer to THAT question...
Not a damn thing is going to change as a result of the time and energy I put into talking about this on the internet....
We're "still going to win this.." if we put our time, energy, and money where our mouths are...
posted by HuronBob at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, here's my answer to THAT question...
Not a damn thing is going to change as a result of the time and energy I put into talking about this on the internet....
We're "still going to win this.." if we put our time, energy, and money where our mouths are...
posted by HuronBob at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Eriko, I think I agree with you on your implicit point -- that a combination of factors has made the election a referendum on Obama, and that McCain himself won't be terrifically important in the outcome of that referundum.
However, it's a bit difficult to argue that "McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a long time" -- George H.W. Bush went from 90% approval ratings to 38% of the popular vote in 19 months, Bob Dole was wrong-footed from the beginning, and George W. Bush had massively worse favorable / unfavorable ratings in 2004 and went on barely to beat Kerry.
posted by MattD at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2008
However, it's a bit difficult to argue that "McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a long time" -- George H.W. Bush went from 90% approval ratings to 38% of the popular vote in 19 months, Bob Dole was wrong-footed from the beginning, and George W. Bush had massively worse favorable / unfavorable ratings in 2004 and went on barely to beat Kerry.
posted by MattD at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2008
We're still going to win this. Elections are won on fundamentals and organization, and they're both on our side.
posted by EarBucket at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by EarBucket at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2008
That’s the kinda sound I like. (Just don’t wanna miss anything.)
posted by ijoshua at 7:34 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by ijoshua at 7:34 AM on September 14, 2008
Given the opposing candidate, the drawn out war, and the collapsing economy, Obama should be ahead by 15%.
Should, yes. But this is America, and our "fundamentals" are not those of the general electorate:
McCain is a war hero; Obama is a black man with an Arabic first name, an Osama-like surname and a Muslim father. Despite media saturation, a significant percantage of people still think he swore his oath on the Koran. Personally I think he's doing a heckofa job in a hostile anti-intellectual environment. (I just donated.)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2008
Should, yes. But this is America, and our "fundamentals" are not those of the general electorate:
McCain is a war hero; Obama is a black man with an Arabic first name, an Osama-like surname and a Muslim father. Despite media saturation, a significant percantage of people still think he swore his oath on the Koran. Personally I think he's doing a heckofa job in a hostile anti-intellectual environment. (I just donated.)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2008
McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a very long time.
Not true. Yes, he's old and he's a poor public speaker. But he comes with three massive advantages (two of which he's eagerly sawing off and burning for a little extra heat): 1) He has a tremendous back story, one of the best in political history. For low-information voters who tuned into the convention, the emotive details of McCain's POW days were probably a revelation. 2) He has a long-standing tradition as a flinty, tough-talking, no-BS kind of guy with a great sense of humor -- a politician for people who generally don't like politicians. 3) He looks the part: Nice simple name, done his time in Washington, older white guy with a military background.
In many ways, this is a made-to-order candidate. If he were ten years younger with better speech delivery, he'd be elected King of the Galaxy if he wanted.
posted by argybarg at 7:36 AM on September 14, 2008
Not true. Yes, he's old and he's a poor public speaker. But he comes with three massive advantages (two of which he's eagerly sawing off and burning for a little extra heat): 1) He has a tremendous back story, one of the best in political history. For low-information voters who tuned into the convention, the emotive details of McCain's POW days were probably a revelation. 2) He has a long-standing tradition as a flinty, tough-talking, no-BS kind of guy with a great sense of humor -- a politician for people who generally don't like politicians. 3) He looks the part: Nice simple name, done his time in Washington, older white guy with a military background.
In many ways, this is a made-to-order candidate. If he were ten years younger with better speech delivery, he'd be elected King of the Galaxy if he wanted.
posted by argybarg at 7:36 AM on September 14, 2008
The mindlessness of McCain's campaign deserves some special attention. What is this confluence of guns, hot wars against "our enemies" and Christianity, for starters? We all know the Commandments and "love thine enemies", so how do fundamentalists square these stark contradictions?
And how about "drill, baby, drill"? As I understand it, all of the readily useful oil reserves, when they finally come on line optimistically ten years from now, will satisfy around 15% of the demand. So we get a drop in the proverbial bucket at a very steep cost to the environment and we're still nowhere.
The Pentagon and intelligence agencies have been saying for years that the one thing we could do to reduce terrorism is to reduce our presence in Iraq, yet McCain and Palin, clinging to an undefined "victory", mention only military conflict as the solution. Meanwhile, large corporations stand to profit from war and the last gasps of light sweet crude.
This lack of rigor is not so much a logical "disconnect" (I don't care for that term), as it is an inability to think in any depth, to see beyond one step. Isn't that a form of insanity?
posted by AppleSeed at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008
And how about "drill, baby, drill"? As I understand it, all of the readily useful oil reserves, when they finally come on line optimistically ten years from now, will satisfy around 15% of the demand. So we get a drop in the proverbial bucket at a very steep cost to the environment and we're still nowhere.
The Pentagon and intelligence agencies have been saying for years that the one thing we could do to reduce terrorism is to reduce our presence in Iraq, yet McCain and Palin, clinging to an undefined "victory", mention only military conflict as the solution. Meanwhile, large corporations stand to profit from war and the last gasps of light sweet crude.
This lack of rigor is not so much a logical "disconnect" (I don't care for that term), as it is an inability to think in any depth, to see beyond one step. Isn't that a form of insanity?
posted by AppleSeed at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008
keep directing polite fire on Obama
What planet do you call home? Polite?
Amazing the lengths to which people will go to rationalize pathologically ugly political behavior.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
What planet do you call home? Polite?
Amazing the lengths to which people will go to rationalize pathologically ugly political behavior.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
I think I like this self repeating media meme better than the last self repeating media meme.
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I wish everyone would dismiss this hick as a joke already, but I must admit that she's catalyzed a sentiment of hate in what appeared to be a sleepy election.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jsavimbi at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
how is drill babby drilled
how girl get president
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [24 favorites]
how girl get president
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [24 favorites]
Not true. Yes, he's old and he's a poor public speaker. But he comes with three massive advantages (two of which he's eagerly sawing off and burning for a little extra heat): 1) He has a tremendous back story, one of the best in political history. For low-information voters who tuned into the convention, the emotive details of McCain's POW days were probably a revelation. 2) He has a long-standing tradition as a flinty, tough-talking, no-BS kind of guy with a great sense of humor -- a politician for people who generally don't like politicians. 3) He looks the part: Nice simple name, done his time in Washington, older white guy with a military background.
You could almost be describing Bob Dole here. I think McCain is incredibly weak. Whatever his "experience", and "straight talk", those are empty claims. In his 30 some odd years in Congress, legislatively, he's known only for three things: Keating 5 corruption; McCain-Feingold, which has ultimately been an abject failure; and The Torture Bill, which despite his conviction, he rolled over on it.
posted by psmealey at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
You could almost be describing Bob Dole here. I think McCain is incredibly weak. Whatever his "experience", and "straight talk", those are empty claims. In his 30 some odd years in Congress, legislatively, he's known only for three things: Keating 5 corruption; McCain-Feingold, which has ultimately been an abject failure; and The Torture Bill, which despite his conviction, he rolled over on it.
posted by psmealey at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
psmealey, he's known for those three things to you because you know a bit about politics. To 80%+ of voters he's either "which old guy was he again?" or "that maverick guy, straight talker." Very few people can name anyone's legislative accomplishments.
And yes, Bob Dole lost, but Bill Clinton was the incumbent in decent economic times. Dole might have won in 1988 or 1992.
posted by argybarg at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2008
And yes, Bob Dole lost, but Bill Clinton was the incumbent in decent economic times. Dole might have won in 1988 or 1992.
posted by argybarg at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2008
Here is the funny part, and probably no one will agree. The first thing you have to do is win the White House. McCain has shown incredible prowess at peaking at the right time. This time last year he was a week away from quitting for lack of financial support. At the end of this I think everyone knows that Obama would have won had he chosen Hillary as a running mate. Had he done so McCain probably would not have chosen Palin and Obama would have coasted to a win. Obama perhaps arrogantly and perhaps naively assumed he had the win when he chose Biden, a friend.
I can hear Bill Clinton sipping his bitter coffee right now muttering under his breath, “That punk assed kid should have listened to me.” No one has yet said that Obama’s choice for VP is his greatest blunder. If he loses I think it may come up in conversation. Face it, if Biden caught cold and bowed out and Hillary stepped in to save the day the left would sleep better at night between now and November.
This conversation should not be about the choice McCain made but the one Obama fumbled. This election has never been McCain’s to win it has always been Obama’s to lose. You can deny it, but you would be lying to yourself.
posted by MapGuy at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I can hear Bill Clinton sipping his bitter coffee right now muttering under his breath, “That punk assed kid should have listened to me.” No one has yet said that Obama’s choice for VP is his greatest blunder. If he loses I think it may come up in conversation. Face it, if Biden caught cold and bowed out and Hillary stepped in to save the day the left would sleep better at night between now and November.
This conversation should not be about the choice McCain made but the one Obama fumbled. This election has never been McCain’s to win it has always been Obama’s to lose. You can deny it, but you would be lying to yourself.
posted by MapGuy at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Lipstick on a pig. And here's the video...
(this is nonpartisan cuteness.)
posted by konolia at 7:50 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
(this is nonpartisan cuteness.)
posted by konolia at 7:50 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: massive milkshake drinkage.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:51 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:51 AM on September 14, 2008
If he were ten years younger with better speech delivery, he'd be elected King of the Galaxy if he wanted.
He was, if you recall, but he alsofathered adopted a black bangladeshi baby out of wedlock pity. And you know how those Values VotersTM get all fired up about black folks, so much so that he subsequently lost to the well-connected, combat avoiding, idiot son of an asshole. Maverick my ass.
Why do people keep framing these elections on concepts of fairness, dignity and common sense? Wasps simply don't want to give away the power they've held in this country since the first plantation, and they'll do anything to keep it, regardless of which moron they choose to be the figurehead. If McCain starts slipping in the polls, Obama better get himself a blast-resistant PopemobileTM.
Hope it ain't so, but theseanimals people are vicious.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
He was, if you recall, but he also
Why do people keep framing these elections on concepts of fairness, dignity and common sense? Wasps simply don't want to give away the power they've held in this country since the first plantation, and they'll do anything to keep it, regardless of which moron they choose to be the figurehead. If McCain starts slipping in the polls, Obama better get himself a blast-resistant PopemobileTM.
Hope it ain't so, but these
posted by jsavimbi at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
MapGuy:
A black Democrat named Barack Obama cannot be the default choice for president in the present-day USA. Slightly more than half of Democrats were willing to welcome him, but mainstream USA is a tougher sell. I think he'll probably close the deal, probably during the debates. But I'm sure lots of people get the willies just saying his name.
posted by argybarg at 7:59 AM on September 14, 2008
A black Democrat named Barack Obama cannot be the default choice for president in the present-day USA. Slightly more than half of Democrats were willing to welcome him, but mainstream USA is a tougher sell. I think he'll probably close the deal, probably during the debates. But I'm sure lots of people get the willies just saying his name.
posted by argybarg at 7:59 AM on September 14, 2008
From the NYT article:
posted by the cydonian at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
But in 1995, Ms. Palin, then a city councilwoman, told colleagues that she had noticed the book “Daddy’s Roommate” on the shelves and that it did not belong there, according to Ms. Chase and Mr. Stein. Ms. Chase read the book, which helps children understand homosexuality, and said it was inoffensive; she suggested that Ms. Palin read it.I know the evil librul blogs have been saying this all September, but now that we have a confirmed citation: WTF AMRIKA?! WTF WTF WTF?!
“Sarah said she didn’t need to read that stuff,” Ms. Chase said. “It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”
posted by the cydonian at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
I love MapGuy and Konolia, just jumping and waving and trying to distract - look over here! Don't look at Palin's lies! Look over here! No no, don't look at McCain's lies and distortions, look over here! Get distracted!
posted by cashman at 8:01 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by cashman at 8:01 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Here's what I get from Palin. She's a cypher, much in the same way Bush was a cypher. An attractive figurehead for the hard-right. She obviously hasn't any real policies or opinions of her own. Rather, she's an attractive proxy for whomever the power-brokers behind her are.
It just makes me wonder what sort of deal was brokered with McCain to get her on the ticket. Those guys are far too Machiavellian for it to be simply a "This'll confuse the hell out of the Obama camp" move. I have to wonder if it wasn't something like "We'll let you be President for a year, John, then you'll have to step-down for 'health reasons', and we'll take it from there."
posted by Thorzdad at 8:04 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
It just makes me wonder what sort of deal was brokered with McCain to get her on the ticket. Those guys are far too Machiavellian for it to be simply a "This'll confuse the hell out of the Obama camp" move. I have to wonder if it wasn't something like "We'll let you be President for a year, John, then you'll have to step-down for 'health reasons', and we'll take it from there."
posted by Thorzdad at 8:04 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
"Are you better off today than you were eight years ago?"
This is exactly right. After 8 years of Republican rule, are you better off? Is The U.S.A.? Is The World?
Do you want to continue the policies of Bush and Cheney? If so, vote McCain.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2008
This is exactly right. After 8 years of Republican rule, are you better off? Is The U.S.A.? Is The World?
Do you want to continue the policies of Bush and Cheney? If so, vote McCain.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2008
The problem with the "Obama should have picked Clinton" line is that it ignores the fundamental order of events - if Obama had chosen Clinton, there's no way McCain would have still gone with Palin. It was a game of rock-paper-scissors, and Obama had to announce his choice first.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
MapGuy: I agree. VP picks matter.
I don't think Hillary was the best choice, because of the bitter divisiveness she drummed up all through the primaries. If I were in Obama's shoes, I sure as hell wouldn't trust her.
So, he needed a VP pick that would have sparked a national or regional interest. The Smiler discounted himself with an ill-timed scandal, and he didn't help Kerry all that much the last time 'round. I don't think there are any hidden candidates that could have whipped up the kind of interest Palin did - except for maybe Gov. Sebelius. I think the possibility for a backlash for having both a woman and a minority on the ticket would be a bit too much to overcome reservations by more traditionalist voters... one monumental change at a time.
This leaves regional winners. Bob Graham was the obvious choice: senatorial and gubernatorial experience, popular with centrist voters and even more popular with union voters, and, most importantly, never lost an election in Florida. Tim Kaine was the obvious choice: Virginia, signed sealed and delivered. Strickland. You get the gist. The election would not be won or lost in Delaware.
Now we're stuck until the debates, and I have a hunch McCain might back out of them altogether. Why shouldn't he? The lies and mudslinging are working very well, and both Obama and Biden are savagely good orators. There's no advantage to an honest debate.
If he does go through with them, remember, Ronnie Ray-Gun was well behind the peanut farmer until the debates. Obama will mop the floor with McCain, and get as big a bounce as the convention.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:09 AM on September 14, 2008
I don't think Hillary was the best choice, because of the bitter divisiveness she drummed up all through the primaries. If I were in Obama's shoes, I sure as hell wouldn't trust her.
So, he needed a VP pick that would have sparked a national or regional interest. The Smiler discounted himself with an ill-timed scandal, and he didn't help Kerry all that much the last time 'round. I don't think there are any hidden candidates that could have whipped up the kind of interest Palin did - except for maybe Gov. Sebelius. I think the possibility for a backlash for having both a woman and a minority on the ticket would be a bit too much to overcome reservations by more traditionalist voters... one monumental change at a time.
This leaves regional winners. Bob Graham was the obvious choice: senatorial and gubernatorial experience, popular with centrist voters and even more popular with union voters, and, most importantly, never lost an election in Florida. Tim Kaine was the obvious choice: Virginia, signed sealed and delivered. Strickland. You get the gist. The election would not be won or lost in Delaware.
Now we're stuck until the debates, and I have a hunch McCain might back out of them altogether. Why shouldn't he? The lies and mudslinging are working very well, and both Obama and Biden are savagely good orators. There's no advantage to an honest debate.
If he does go through with them, remember, Ronnie Ray-Gun was well behind the peanut farmer until the debates. Obama will mop the floor with McCain, and get as big a bounce as the convention.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:09 AM on September 14, 2008
She's a cypher, much in the same way Bush was a cypher.
She's Bush without the money: ambitious enough to hold office, but unqualified and unaccomplished enough to be maleable by the powers that be, and nasty enough to punish those who point out that very fact.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:11 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
She's Bush without the money: ambitious enough to hold office, but unqualified and unaccomplished enough to be maleable by the powers that be, and nasty enough to punish those who point out that very fact.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:11 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
All I see is an 8 year old child, pretty enough to lead a clique, smart enough to try to hide her cruelty from the teachers but not quite smart enough to do it effectively. The sort whose mother threw expensive birthday parties at which she threw tantrums because they weren't perfect. A spoiled, petty and ultimately cold-hearted child who thinks that love is less about trust than about power, and is forever trying to control others to make sure she cannot be hurt.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:15 AM on September 14, 2008 [43 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:15 AM on September 14, 2008 [43 favorites]
“It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”
I know the evil librul blogs have been saying this all September, but now that we have a confirmed citation: WTF AMRIKA?! WTF WTF WTF?!
IIRC, the member of parliament (A former teacher, mind you) in the riding I grew up in supported the removal of Lolita from a local school's library when he was mayor. 'AMRIKA' does not have a monopoly on ignorance.
And its usage makes you look as goofy as people who write 'Fukk Micro$oft!11!1"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I know the evil librul blogs have been saying this all September, but now that we have a confirmed citation: WTF AMRIKA?! WTF WTF WTF?!
IIRC, the member of parliament (A former teacher, mind you) in the riding I grew up in supported the removal of Lolita from a local school's library when he was mayor. 'AMRIKA' does not have a monopoly on ignorance.
And its usage makes you look as goofy as people who write 'Fukk Micro$oft!11!1"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
However, it's a bit difficult to argue that "McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a long time"
You are citing evidence that there were weaker candidates from the viewpoint of moderates and liberals. Quite possibly true. But that's not nearly as important as what a weak candidate he has been to the GOP base, who, frankly, hated McCain.
One of the core factors -- possibly *the* core factor -- in the selection of Palin was to appease the base, and so far, it seems to have worked splendidly, esp. with the lovely bit of jujitsu that was taking "lipstick on a pig" out of context, miming it as an attack on Palin, and then counterattacking on it. End result? The GOP is united by McCain/Palin, and far too many democrats are trying to say that Obama didn't say that, didn't mean that, etc.
Hint: The *only* political defense that works is the riposte -- dismiss the charge with a filp remark and counterattack. The Democrats spend far to many times trying to prove attacks are wrong, by the time they get the evidence lined up, the attack is now a meme.
The correct response was:
You are citing evidence that there were weaker candidates from the viewpoint of moderates and liberals. Quite possibly true. But that's not nearly as important as what a weak candidate he has been to the GOP base, who, frankly, hated McCain.
One of the core factors -- possibly *the* core factor -- in the selection of Palin was to appease the base, and so far, it seems to have worked splendidly, esp. with the lovely bit of jujitsu that was taking "lipstick on a pig" out of context, miming it as an attack on Palin, and then counterattacking on it. End result? The GOP is united by McCain/Palin, and far too many democrats are trying to say that Obama didn't say that, didn't mean that, etc.
Hint: The *only* political defense that works is the riposte -- dismiss the charge with a filp remark and counterattack. The Democrats spend far to many times trying to prove attacks are wrong, by the time they get the evidence lined up, the attack is now a meme.
The correct response was:
"Really? Well, given as much lying as McCain has done in the past two weeks, I hardly consider that a reliable source, but come to think of it, Lipstick on a Pig is a pretty good description for McCain/Palin. We'd like to thank the McCain campaign for it, and we'll have shirts printed by Tuesday. We'll be sending the McCain campaign a check for the royalties -- besides, they could use the money."posted by eriko at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
The democrats need to get over their smugness - and quick - if they want to win this election. What everything boils down to is this: Democrats come across as "knowing what's best for you" and Republicans come across as "holier than thou".
For better or worse the last 30 years has proven America will take the "holier than thou" candidate over the "we know what's best for you" candidate. Do you hear me, Al Gore and John Kerry? This is why you lost, and if Obama isn't careful, he will too.
Obama may look better, may have a better world view and may sound better than McCain, but he's also a fairly liberal, black Democrat whom the media has appointed the chosen one to save us all. For the God fearing members of the US's flyover states, this is simply unacceptable and reason enough to vote against the man.
This is the schtick I hear time and again from talking with family, friends and business counterparts who live in that vast expanse between San Francisco and New York. And guess what - they managed to get GWB elected twice. Just sayin'...
posted by tgrundke at 8:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
For better or worse the last 30 years has proven America will take the "holier than thou" candidate over the "we know what's best for you" candidate. Do you hear me, Al Gore and John Kerry? This is why you lost, and if Obama isn't careful, he will too.
Obama may look better, may have a better world view and may sound better than McCain, but he's also a fairly liberal, black Democrat whom the media has appointed the chosen one to save us all. For the God fearing members of the US's flyover states, this is simply unacceptable and reason enough to vote against the man.
This is the schtick I hear time and again from talking with family, friends and business counterparts who live in that vast expanse between San Francisco and New York. And guess what - they managed to get GWB elected twice. Just sayin'...
posted by tgrundke at 8:22 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
An interesting and even-handed opinion from Ezra Klein:
The McCain campaign's decision to lie about, well, everything, really needs to be understood as more than the outcome of John McCain's consuming ambition. It is a rational and obvious response to the rules laid down by the media. Indeed, McCain's spokesperson Brian Rogers says this directly to The Politico's Jonathan Martin. "We ran a different kind of campaign and nobody cared about us. They didn’t cover John McCain. So now you’ve got to be forward-leaning in everything."
And it's true. Earlier this year McCain made poverty tours and offered policy speeches. No one cared, Obama retained his lead. It was only when he began offering vicious attacks and daily controversies that he began setting the pace of the coverage. The McCain campaign learned something important about the media: It's an institution that covers conflict. If you want to direct its coverage, give it more conflict than your opponent. And so they have.
None of this, of course, absolves McCain of what he has done. He has sacrificed his honor and dignity with astonishing enthusiasm. He has become much worse than "just another politician." He is a politician who was once more than that, and used that reputation to go lower than the rest. But the fact remains that he wouldn't be doing this, that no one would do this, if the media ignored or sanctioned the behavior. If lies were covered as lies and an allergy to substance was treated as evidence of an unfitness to govern, the tenor of campaigns would lift. These are, at the end of the day, rational beasts, and they hunger for good coverage. THe McCain campaign has found its best coverage comes from its worst campaigning. And so they are following the incentive structure laid out by the media.
posted by neroli at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [25 favorites]
The McCain campaign's decision to lie about, well, everything, really needs to be understood as more than the outcome of John McCain's consuming ambition. It is a rational and obvious response to the rules laid down by the media. Indeed, McCain's spokesperson Brian Rogers says this directly to The Politico's Jonathan Martin. "We ran a different kind of campaign and nobody cared about us. They didn’t cover John McCain. So now you’ve got to be forward-leaning in everything."
And it's true. Earlier this year McCain made poverty tours and offered policy speeches. No one cared, Obama retained his lead. It was only when he began offering vicious attacks and daily controversies that he began setting the pace of the coverage. The McCain campaign learned something important about the media: It's an institution that covers conflict. If you want to direct its coverage, give it more conflict than your opponent. And so they have.
None of this, of course, absolves McCain of what he has done. He has sacrificed his honor and dignity with astonishing enthusiasm. He has become much worse than "just another politician." He is a politician who was once more than that, and used that reputation to go lower than the rest. But the fact remains that he wouldn't be doing this, that no one would do this, if the media ignored or sanctioned the behavior. If lies were covered as lies and an allergy to substance was treated as evidence of an unfitness to govern, the tenor of campaigns would lift. These are, at the end of the day, rational beasts, and they hunger for good coverage. THe McCain campaign has found its best coverage comes from its worst campaigning. And so they are following the incentive structure laid out by the media.
posted by neroli at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [25 favorites]
McCain wanted to base his campaign on the success of the surge and our ability to stay in Iraq for "100 years", but reality conspired against him, Maliki and then even George Bush signed on to a time line for withdrawal, which had been Obama's position, making McCain look ridiculous. McCain criticized Obama for wanting to go into Pakistan, and now Bush is doing it. Again, McCain looked ridiculous.
So, since reality has conspired against McCain, the McCain campaign has decided to campaign against reality itself. And rather disturbingly, it seems to be working for the moment.
That said, I don't see this as a sustainable strategy. That "Obama wants to fuck your kids" is ordinarily the kind of thing you would run on Nov 2nd, but by running the completely false advertisements this far out, McCain can be branded as a total liar, and if comes up with something totally off the wall in November, people won't be as apt to believe it. On the other hand, Obama, who isn't being as dishonest could just make up something at the end of the election if he wanted too, and probably get away with it. (but that's a risky strategy with so much early voting going on these days, which is actually a good thing now)
Obama just set up this website to go over McCain's deep connections to the most corrupt lobbyists in the country.
posted by delmoi at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
So, since reality has conspired against McCain, the McCain campaign has decided to campaign against reality itself. And rather disturbingly, it seems to be working for the moment.
That said, I don't see this as a sustainable strategy. That "Obama wants to fuck your kids" is ordinarily the kind of thing you would run on Nov 2nd, but by running the completely false advertisements this far out, McCain can be branded as a total liar, and if comes up with something totally off the wall in November, people won't be as apt to believe it. On the other hand, Obama, who isn't being as dishonest could just make up something at the end of the election if he wanted too, and probably get away with it. (but that's a risky strategy with so much early voting going on these days, which is actually a good thing now)
Why doesn't Barrack Obama lie more often?Why would he need too? Seems like there's enough factual badness emanating from the McCain campaign, I mean Charlie Black was once a lobbyist for Jonas Savimbi(!?!?!)
Obama just set up this website to go over McCain's deep connections to the most corrupt lobbyists in the country.
Speaking of TV, you'll know that Obama is well and truly toast if Oprah is forced to reverse herself and invite Palin onto the show before the electionThat doesn't make sense. Who could "force" her to do anything? She'd been friends with Hillary Clinton for years and didn't invite her on the show.
Not saying that will happen, but Oprah didn't get as rich as she is by riding a losing horse all the way to the finish line.And she's as rich as she needs to be. I mean, the woman is a billionaire, no one can push her around. Besides, given Palin's apparent fear of being interviewed, what makes you think Palin would even want to go on the show? And given Oprah's support for Obama, what makes you think Oprah wouldn't lay into her on issues like Rape Kits, Abortion, Equal pay for women (which McCain supports the Ledbetter scotus decision), troupergate, and all the other crap emanating from the McCain campaign. it's not like she's required to give "nice" interviews.
posted by delmoi at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Slap*Happy and the debate issue:
You should rephrase that: Obama *should* win the debates handily as the contrast between the two candidates is so stark, particularly their style and presentation.
Remember: John Kerry and Al Gore *should have* mopped the floor with George W. Bush, but as history is our guide, Gore came away looking like an ass ("we know what's best for you, you simpleton Americans") and Kerry came away looking like the wishy-washy-flip-flopper-liberal that the Bush campaign made him out to be ("we need to involve the UN more!").
McCain's staff knows he is the underdog, they also learned from the debates of GWB. You can be damned sure that the McCain team will make things uncomfortable for Obama. Witness the disaster that was Obama's presence at that Congregation a few weeks ago (cannot recall the name). He waffled on the abortion issue, looked generally uncomfortable and was clearly sweatin' bullets.
The man ain't impervious to looking bad in a debate and assuming he'll win and trounce McCain just reinforces the Conservatives who view Obama as "annointed" and "holy".
posted by tgrundke at 8:29 AM on September 14, 2008
You should rephrase that: Obama *should* win the debates handily as the contrast between the two candidates is so stark, particularly their style and presentation.
Remember: John Kerry and Al Gore *should have* mopped the floor with George W. Bush, but as history is our guide, Gore came away looking like an ass ("we know what's best for you, you simpleton Americans") and Kerry came away looking like the wishy-washy-flip-flopper-liberal that the Bush campaign made him out to be ("we need to involve the UN more!").
McCain's staff knows he is the underdog, they also learned from the debates of GWB. You can be damned sure that the McCain team will make things uncomfortable for Obama. Witness the disaster that was Obama's presence at that Congregation a few weeks ago (cannot recall the name). He waffled on the abortion issue, looked generally uncomfortable and was clearly sweatin' bullets.
The man ain't impervious to looking bad in a debate and assuming he'll win and trounce McCain just reinforces the Conservatives who view Obama as "annointed" and "holy".
posted by tgrundke at 8:29 AM on September 14, 2008
Some good news for honesty: in this morning's Chicago Tribune there were two articles going after McCain for his recent behavior. Steve Chapman (who's nationally syndicated) broke out the L-word to describe the pig 'controversy' and an article in Metro described the sex-ed ad as 'vile' and 'sleaze'. A few seconds of Meet the Press this morning had Gulliani getting called on his convention BS as well as some of these ads.
Soon it will be enough for the ad series "Liar". "Blah: lie. Blah: lie. Blah: lie. John McCain thinks that he can buy your vote with 30 second lies on TV. I'm BHO, and I approve this revelation unto the people."
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2008
Soon it will be enough for the ad series "Liar". "Blah: lie. Blah: lie. Blah: lie. John McCain thinks that he can buy your vote with 30 second lies on TV. I'm BHO, and I approve this revelation unto the people."
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2008
While working the other day I heard a group of older women talking about how cold it was. One of them said something like "Well, imagine if you were Sarah Palin. Think of how cold it gets up by her." That was it. No politics. Just talking about her as though she was an old friend.
Fuck.
posted by brevator at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fuck.
posted by brevator at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
if Obama had chosen Clinton, there's no way McCain would have still gone with Palin.
So your saying it is Obama's fault Palin is on the ticket. That may well be true but I don't think you will find a liberal that will admit it or want's to hear it. Talk about distraction.
I now think it is to Biden to win or lose the election. The VP debate should be a lovely piece of American Political Cinema. I am making popcorn.
posted by MapGuy at 8:32 AM on September 14, 2008
So your saying it is Obama's fault Palin is on the ticket. That may well be true but I don't think you will find a liberal that will admit it or want's to hear it. Talk about distraction.
I now think it is to Biden to win or lose the election. The VP debate should be a lovely piece of American Political Cinema. I am making popcorn.
posted by MapGuy at 8:32 AM on September 14, 2008
And speaking of Hillary, she wasn't willing to be vetted along with other candidates, supposedly. She only wanted to be vetted if she was going to be picked, which would have put Obama in a difficult position.
If he had put Hillary on the ticket, things would be different, but we don't know if they'd be better. Rather then picking Palin, McCain would be digging up every deal that Bill enganged in post-presidency and claiming it was a scandal. There would be all kinds of nonsense, there would be stories every day about how well Obama and Clinton were getting a long, it would be a soap opera.
And who knows, he might have picked Palin anyway.
posted by delmoi at 8:34 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
If he had put Hillary on the ticket, things would be different, but we don't know if they'd be better. Rather then picking Palin, McCain would be digging up every deal that Bill enganged in post-presidency and claiming it was a scandal. There would be all kinds of nonsense, there would be stories every day about how well Obama and Clinton were getting a long, it would be a soap opera.
And who knows, he might have picked Palin anyway.
posted by delmoi at 8:34 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
These lies, are they similar to untruths?
posted by chunking express at 8:35 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by chunking express at 8:35 AM on September 14, 2008
brevator nails it. Those women who were talking could relate to Sarah Palin, they cannot relate to someone named "Obama" who spent time in Indonesia, who has family in Africa and who was a 'community organizer' in Chicago ("Isn't that code for Communist?").
We may find his story refreshing, offering a new perspective on the world. America sees his story as foreign, of coming with divided loyalties (Christian? Muslim? American? Black? White?) and representing a world that is *not* America. As Camille Paglia said in a recent Slate article, (paraphrased), Palin represents the pioneering woman who settled the old west, the woman who gets up every morning at 5:00am, fixes breakfast for her family, gets the kids on the bus, goes to work, comes home, cooks dinner and somehow finds time to hunt, fish, take care of her man and get to the hockey game on time.
Middle America moms can relate - and those disparaging her look like Hillary Clinton in 1992 when she said she didn't want to be one of those stay at home moms. That interview/quote pretty much defined her for a large section of America to this day, and they will never forgive her for it.
posted by tgrundke at 8:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
We may find his story refreshing, offering a new perspective on the world. America sees his story as foreign, of coming with divided loyalties (Christian? Muslim? American? Black? White?) and representing a world that is *not* America. As Camille Paglia said in a recent Slate article, (paraphrased), Palin represents the pioneering woman who settled the old west, the woman who gets up every morning at 5:00am, fixes breakfast for her family, gets the kids on the bus, goes to work, comes home, cooks dinner and somehow finds time to hunt, fish, take care of her man and get to the hockey game on time.
Middle America moms can relate - and those disparaging her look like Hillary Clinton in 1992 when she said she didn't want to be one of those stay at home moms. That interview/quote pretty much defined her for a large section of America to this day, and they will never forgive her for it.
posted by tgrundke at 8:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
keep directing polite fire on Obama
ah, yes, polite: "country first" (code for "he's a foreigner"), "he'd rather lose a war than lose an election", ie he's a traitor, the "celebrity" ads (code for "he's uppity"), the sex ed ad ("he's a paedophile"). if that's polite for you, well, I guess McCain has not actually worn a noose lapel pin yet, so that must count for being polite in some quarters.
anyway, more examples of politeness in history, collected by Mr. Spike Lee.
If he were ten years younger with better speech delivery, he'd be elected King of the Galaxy if he wanted
George W. Bush wiped his ass with this alleged King of the Galaxy back in 2000. George W. Bush, not Thomas Jefferson or FDR or 1980's Reagan: George W. Bush. so much for the "McCain is underrated" argument. he's not. he's a mediocrity. but he's white in an electoral year that makes this fact a very, very big asset.
posted by matteo at 8:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
ah, yes, polite: "country first" (code for "he's a foreigner"), "he'd rather lose a war than lose an election", ie he's a traitor, the "celebrity" ads (code for "he's uppity"), the sex ed ad ("he's a paedophile"). if that's polite for you, well, I guess McCain has not actually worn a noose lapel pin yet, so that must count for being polite in some quarters.
anyway, more examples of politeness in history, collected by Mr. Spike Lee.
If he were ten years younger with better speech delivery, he'd be elected King of the Galaxy if he wanted
George W. Bush wiped his ass with this alleged King of the Galaxy back in 2000. George W. Bush, not Thomas Jefferson or FDR or 1980's Reagan: George W. Bush. so much for the "McCain is underrated" argument. he's not. he's a mediocrity. but he's white in an electoral year that makes this fact a very, very big asset.
posted by matteo at 8:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
And around the same time, Palin will have to appear opposite Joe Biden, another person with bona fide small town down-home cred and three times her IQ
I was about to say that all Palin's cliche mongering* is going to leave her wide open for a filet-of-Quayle moment a al Lloyd Bentsen. Whether that'll have any effect on the outcome of the election is open to question.
*The most fun part of watching her interview on 20/20 was hearing her repeatedly blabber on about 'taking on the good old boys,' and shouting unprintable responses at the TV.
posted by jonmc at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2008
I was about to say that all Palin's cliche mongering* is going to leave her wide open for a filet-of-Quayle moment a al Lloyd Bentsen. Whether that'll have any effect on the outcome of the election is open to question.
*The most fun part of watching her interview on 20/20 was hearing her repeatedly blabber on about 'taking on the good old boys,' and shouting unprintable responses at the TV.
posted by jonmc at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2008
Yep, the MSM so desperately wants Obama-Clinton conflict drama that they spent many hours and bytes of news trying to invent it. The facts are that after conceding in June, Clinton gave Obama historically unprecedented repeated support.
At any rate, I spending my political action funds on the ballot measures in Florida, Arizona and California. If the Dems want more than a vote while holding my nose this year, they can kiss my ass.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2008
At any rate, I spending my political action funds on the ballot measures in Florida, Arizona and California. If the Dems want more than a vote while holding my nose this year, they can kiss my ass.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2008
I mean Charlie Black was once a lobbyist for Jonas Savimbi(!?!?!)
I call bullshit on this categorically unfair and daring indictment of ONE relationship betwix an American lobbyist and a foreign agent. To use just one instance would certainly downplay the importance of the Roosevelt Corollary and American foreign policy since its implementation. I demand a complete list of tinpot dictators, strongmen and trouble makers that we, the people, have supported since our imperialistic objectives moved into high gear in 1898.
And please don't ask Palin about the Monroe Doctrine, cuz that's just uppity Ivy League stuff.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I call bullshit on this categorically unfair and daring indictment of ONE relationship betwix an American lobbyist and a foreign agent. To use just one instance would certainly downplay the importance of the Roosevelt Corollary and American foreign policy since its implementation. I demand a complete list of tinpot dictators, strongmen and trouble makers that we, the people, have supported since our imperialistic objectives moved into high gear in 1898.
And please don't ask Palin about the Monroe Doctrine, cuz that's just uppity Ivy League stuff.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I buy that McCain peaks at all the right times. This feels like an early peak to me. The Palin contribution to his ticket ain't getting any stronger over time.
posted by NortonDC at 8:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by NortonDC at 8:43 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
just reinforces the Conservatives who view Obama as "annointed" and "holy".
Oh, no you don't. No controlling the talking points for YOU. No can haz. Such conservatives are idiots and in the minority. A much louder camp are the Hillary boosters who can't or won't let it go. I will start referring to any self-identified democrats as the "Screaming Yellow Zonkers" if they keep bringing up the words "smug", "annointed", or "overconfident" into the conversation without a lot, and I mean a lot, of corroborating evidence.
Steadfast support of your candidates and their campaign is not overconfident, smug, cult-like or a Bad Thing by any stretch of the imagination. Worrying and pacing in circles and sounding a hue and cry because you actually believe the fibs foisted off on you by the slime-oozing pustules employed by the other side is a very, very bad thing.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:46 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, no you don't. No controlling the talking points for YOU. No can haz. Such conservatives are idiots and in the minority. A much louder camp are the Hillary boosters who can't or won't let it go. I will start referring to any self-identified democrats as the "Screaming Yellow Zonkers" if they keep bringing up the words "smug", "annointed", or "overconfident" into the conversation without a lot, and I mean a lot, of corroborating evidence.
Steadfast support of your candidates and their campaign is not overconfident, smug, cult-like or a Bad Thing by any stretch of the imagination. Worrying and pacing in circles and sounding a hue and cry because you actually believe the fibs foisted off on you by the slime-oozing pustules employed by the other side is a very, very bad thing.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:46 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
My Palin baby name is Gamebird Kelp Palin. What's yours?
posted by fixedgear at 8:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by fixedgear at 8:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I love Biden but he's the one who is stereotyped as being the "gaffe guy."
Actually, the 'gaffe guy,' thing kind of helped make Biden a good choice in terms of wooing uncommitted Middle American voters. It's Obama saying "I won't hold the occasional verbal gaffe against somebody if their heart's in the right place."
posted by jonmc at 8:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Actually, the 'gaffe guy,' thing kind of helped make Biden a good choice in terms of wooing uncommitted Middle American voters. It's Obama saying "I won't hold the occasional verbal gaffe against somebody if their heart's in the right place."
posted by jonmc at 8:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Slap*Happy: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact, you just reinforced my ultimate point: a very large swath of America doesn't care about the overwhelming evidence you request, they work based upon how they 'feel' - that's why so many marketing campaigns work: they reinforce subtle feelings/beliefs you already had about something ("why yes, I *do* feel safe driving this Volvo, let's buy it!").
You can have all the evidence you would like, it's not going to sway anyones' opinion. The reality is that this is the way Obama has been framed by and for a large section of the electorate. Al Gore was similarly framed as being smug and a know-it-all. Instead of Gore trying to move past that, he ended up reinforcing the issue by not going after the other guy hard enough.
It's like that kid in grade school who gets a crappy nickname for farting in class, being overweight or the for being the A/V kid. Everyone remembers and refers to you as that, even at the 10 year high school reunion. The question becomes - did that kid get past the framing and evolve into Bill Gates or the Unibomber?
posted by tgrundke at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2008
You can have all the evidence you would like, it's not going to sway anyones' opinion. The reality is that this is the way Obama has been framed by and for a large section of the electorate. Al Gore was similarly framed as being smug and a know-it-all. Instead of Gore trying to move past that, he ended up reinforcing the issue by not going after the other guy hard enough.
It's like that kid in grade school who gets a crappy nickname for farting in class, being overweight or the for being the A/V kid. Everyone remembers and refers to you as that, even at the 10 year high school reunion. The question becomes - did that kid get past the framing and evolve into Bill Gates or the Unibomber?
posted by tgrundke at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2008
Alternet article on a church Palin attends when in Juneau.
Apparently, it puts forth a doctrine that the Assemblies of God considers "Deviant Teachings".
A quote: That we disapprove of Latter Rain doctrines and practices such as "impartation," "birthing," "Joel's Army," and the "five-fold ministries" taught as "offices" with "predictive prophecy," and other extraneous teachings "which, being unfounded scripturally, serve only to break fellowship . . . and tend to confusion and division."
Assemblies of God could be considered conservative fundamentalist. If this article is accurate about the doctrine Palin is practising, then this is a genuine move toward theocracy in America.
"Palin's Churches and the Holy Laughter anointing" (YouTube)
posted by dragonsi55 at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Apparently, it puts forth a doctrine that the Assemblies of God considers "Deviant Teachings".
A quote: That we disapprove of Latter Rain doctrines and practices such as "impartation," "birthing," "Joel's Army," and the "five-fold ministries" taught as "offices" with "predictive prophecy," and other extraneous teachings "which, being unfounded scripturally, serve only to break fellowship . . . and tend to confusion and division."
Assemblies of God could be considered conservative fundamentalist. If this article is accurate about the doctrine Palin is practising, then this is a genuine move toward theocracy in America.
"Palin's Churches and the Holy Laughter anointing" (YouTube)
posted by dragonsi55 at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
!00 comments over here already? Wow. Still got the fire, eh?
posted by NortonDC at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by NortonDC at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008
I want this to be true but I really don't know anymore.
Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I think it'll help. The repetition thing annoys just about everybody and Biden, whatever else you want to say about him is a pretty sharp guy, plus she comes across as overbearing and smug, whereas Biden comes across as likeable.
posted by jonmc at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008
Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I think it'll help. The repetition thing annoys just about everybody and Biden, whatever else you want to say about him is a pretty sharp guy, plus she comes across as overbearing and smug, whereas Biden comes across as likeable.
posted by jonmc at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2008
(and yeah, I realize that in a perfect world, how someone 'comes across' shouldn't matter in an election, but we don't live in a perfect world.)
posted by jonmc at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by jonmc at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2008
they work based upon how they 'feel'
God, if this is true then it really is a problem of race, or frame of references too divergent to reconcile with each other. Because when I see Barack Obama speak or interact with people my visceral gut reaction is of integrity, intelligence and trust, and when I see McCain do the same thing my gut reaction is one of unwell, unpredictable weirdness.
This morning Obama was interviewed by Telemundo or Univision, and it was on in the restaurant as we had breakfast. I kept catching glances and Obama just looks TOGETHER. I mean, I couldn't understand a word because it was overdubbed in Spanish, but he still SEEMED presidential. They'd show brief bits of McCain and he seemed doddering and unhinged.
Surely there is some confirmation bias, because those two senses basically match my more thought out opinions. But still.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:03 AM on September 14, 2008
God, if this is true then it really is a problem of race, or frame of references too divergent to reconcile with each other. Because when I see Barack Obama speak or interact with people my visceral gut reaction is of integrity, intelligence and trust, and when I see McCain do the same thing my gut reaction is one of unwell, unpredictable weirdness.
This morning Obama was interviewed by Telemundo or Univision, and it was on in the restaurant as we had breakfast. I kept catching glances and Obama just looks TOGETHER. I mean, I couldn't understand a word because it was overdubbed in Spanish, but he still SEEMED presidential. They'd show brief bits of McCain and he seemed doddering and unhinged.
Surely there is some confirmation bias, because those two senses basically match my more thought out opinions. But still.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:03 AM on September 14, 2008
Hillary supporters for McCain - (NSFW language)
Because we don't think!
posted by madamjujujive at 9:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Because we don't think!
posted by madamjujujive at 9:05 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Youtube collection of the signs as Alaska rallies against Palin. About half way through, Mefi gets a shoutout (or at least that comment, which I thought originated here).
posted by cashman at 9:16 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by cashman at 9:16 AM on September 14, 2008
This morning Obama was interviewed by Telemundo or Univision, and it was on in the restaurant as we had breakfast. I kept catching glances and Obama just looks TOGETHER.
I contrast that to the enduring mental image I have of McCain on Jon Stewarts, show, hunched over, his hands balled up in fists and quietly mumbling his Iraq talking points over and over again while not answering a single one of Stewart's questions. He just seemed such a pathetic character at that moment, I was sure he was done.
Given the power of the office of the President behind him, this is truly a dangerous man.
posted by psmealey at 9:18 AM on September 14, 2008
I contrast that to the enduring mental image I have of McCain on Jon Stewarts, show, hunched over, his hands balled up in fists and quietly mumbling his Iraq talking points over and over again while not answering a single one of Stewart's questions. He just seemed such a pathetic character at that moment, I was sure he was done.
Given the power of the office of the President behind him, this is truly a dangerous man.
posted by psmealey at 9:18 AM on September 14, 2008
Hillary supporters for McCain - (NSFW language)
Because we don't think!
<waltersobchak>See what happens?! See what happens Larry?! This is what happens when you FUCK A STRANGER WITH A RAT!</waltersobchak>
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Because we don't think!
<waltersobchak>See what happens?! See what happens Larry?! This is what happens when you FUCK A STRANGER WITH A RAT!</waltersobchak>
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
The basic problem: it's not a rational democratic process, no more than high school elections are "democratic" in the pure sense. It's about likes, looks, and money, not competence. It's been that way in the US for the last 50 years.
It's not important that you like your leader. It's not important that he (or she) be handsome. It is vitally important that he is a good motivator, communicator, and organiser; that he is intelligent, and can respond creatively to crises. Most importantly, perhaps, he is someone who will hold the reins of power lightly and responsibly.
The sheer mass of visual adulation and myth-making around Presidential contenders doesn't make it impossible that someone with these qualities can rise to the top; it simply makes it unlikely. Unfortunately, at the same time, voters are becoming less likely to be able to clearly articulate policies, positions, and platforms, or to understand the potential consequences of each. It's too much cognitive overhead : they default to "like / don't like".
Even worse, they do not learn. On the Republican side, these are the same people who voted for W in 2000 and 2004 because they thought he "shared their values" and was "someone like them". With the exception of the most willfully blind, that is now recognised as a gross error in judgement - yet they appear to be doing the exact same thing again in regards to Sarah Palin.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 9:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's not important that you like your leader. It's not important that he (or she) be handsome. It is vitally important that he is a good motivator, communicator, and organiser; that he is intelligent, and can respond creatively to crises. Most importantly, perhaps, he is someone who will hold the reins of power lightly and responsibly.
The sheer mass of visual adulation and myth-making around Presidential contenders doesn't make it impossible that someone with these qualities can rise to the top; it simply makes it unlikely. Unfortunately, at the same time, voters are becoming less likely to be able to clearly articulate policies, positions, and platforms, or to understand the potential consequences of each. It's too much cognitive overhead : they default to "like / don't like".
Even worse, they do not learn. On the Republican side, these are the same people who voted for W in 2000 and 2004 because they thought he "shared their values" and was "someone like them". With the exception of the most willfully blind, that is now recognised as a gross error in judgement - yet they appear to be doing the exact same thing again in regards to Sarah Palin.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 9:25 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Wonky-stuff-that-unfortunately-won't-mean-a-damn-thingFilter--
Sponsored legislation enacted: McCain vs. Obama
posted by neroli at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Sponsored legislation enacted: McCain vs. Obama
posted by neroli at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Bottom line: it does not matter who is getting better coverage in the New York Times.
“This is a new experience for Obama — facing a Republican who will do and say things far different from the Democrats he has faced. Republicans don’t care what Frank Rich, Maureen Dowd or establishment media has to say about them.”
From what I can tell, Republicans have been telling the faithful for over a decade now that the "media", "MSM", mainstream media outlets are not to be trusted. Tune in to Rush, if you can hold your lunch, and invariably he will come down hard against the lies, bias, of the mainstream media, meaning essentially anyone who fact checks.
So once you establish your sucker with a distrust of the only reasonable place to get real information (excluding the internet, which is still sort of like the wild west for those not familiar with it) then your con is set up.
The next step is to make them like your candidate. Don't talk about issues, get a war hero and a pretty mom that touches all the dendrites in a pleasurable way.
So these two things can be assessed as
1. Paint the media as illegitimate sources of factual information
2. Make the voter personally like your candidate
The third thing to do then, is lie. Lie every single day until the election. If you don't bother with the facts, and you trust the candidate because you believe the ruse, then the lies work. They are the facts. She really did say, "Thank, but no thanks" and the media is just biased and sexists for saying otherwise.
Lying every single day until the election appears to be working.
posted by plexi at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
“This is a new experience for Obama — facing a Republican who will do and say things far different from the Democrats he has faced. Republicans don’t care what Frank Rich, Maureen Dowd or establishment media has to say about them.”
From what I can tell, Republicans have been telling the faithful for over a decade now that the "media", "MSM", mainstream media outlets are not to be trusted. Tune in to Rush, if you can hold your lunch, and invariably he will come down hard against the lies, bias, of the mainstream media, meaning essentially anyone who fact checks.
So once you establish your sucker with a distrust of the only reasonable place to get real information (excluding the internet, which is still sort of like the wild west for those not familiar with it) then your con is set up.
The next step is to make them like your candidate. Don't talk about issues, get a war hero and a pretty mom that touches all the dendrites in a pleasurable way.
So these two things can be assessed as
1. Paint the media as illegitimate sources of factual information
2. Make the voter personally like your candidate
The third thing to do then, is lie. Lie every single day until the election. If you don't bother with the facts, and you trust the candidate because you believe the ruse, then the lies work. They are the facts. She really did say, "Thank, but no thanks" and the media is just biased and sexists for saying otherwise.
Lying every single day until the election appears to be working.
posted by plexi at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
From the Washington Monthly piece linked above:
Bills Placed On Calendar, 110th Congress: (I included these for the 110th Congress, since it's not over yet, and these are the bills most likely to be acted on.)
Obama:
S. 453: A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
S.2433: A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.
McCain:
S. 84: A bill to establish a United States Boxing Commission to administer the Act, and for other purposes.
posted by neroli at 9:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Bills Placed On Calendar, 110th Congress: (I included these for the 110th Congress, since it's not over yet, and these are the bills most likely to be acted on.)
Obama:
S. 453: A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
S.2433: A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.
McCain:
S. 84: A bill to establish a United States Boxing Commission to administer the Act, and for other purposes.
posted by neroli at 9:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Lying every single day until the election appears to be working.
Especially when they have their own TV stations to keep replaying them.
posted by mothershock at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Especially when they have their own TV stations to keep replaying them.
posted by mothershock at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Err, posted too early. Not to say the rest of the article sounds scary as well. I know it's election season and things become more sensationalist than before, but heck, that was a chilling read.
I just have to say this. At this point, US politics is all but a dystopian, The Dark Knight-like Prisoner's Dilemma. "Regular" folk versus a group of hardened, the devil-may-care thugs: who'll blink first? Who'll survive? Will the superhero, on whom everyone's pined their hopes beat a chilling, seemingly-undefeatable baddie? Can the general populace ever stop being cynical and believe in truth, justice and all that? Can they _please_ shut that thumping Zimmerman score?
posted by the cydonian at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I just have to say this. At this point, US politics is all but a dystopian, The Dark Knight-like Prisoner's Dilemma. "Regular" folk versus a group of hardened, the devil-may-care thugs: who'll blink first? Who'll survive? Will the superhero, on whom everyone's pined their hopes beat a chilling, seemingly-undefeatable baddie? Can the general populace ever stop being cynical and believe in truth, justice and all that? Can they _please_ shut that thumping Zimmerman score?
posted by the cydonian at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
From Wikipedia, but still true, because I watched it with my own two non-lying eyes and heard him say this with my own two pointy ears:
Another notable moment occurred on April 4, 2006, when Stewart confronted his longtime friend, US Senator John McCain, about his decision to appear at Liberty University, an institution founded by Jerry Falwell, a man who McCain had previously denounced as one of the "agents of intolerance".[36][37] In the interchange, Stewart asked McCain "You're not freaking out on us? Are you freaking out on us, because if you're freaking out and you're going into the crazy base [politics] world— are you going into crazy base world?" McCain replied "I'm afraid so." The clip was played on CNN and created a surge of articles across the blogosphere.[38][39]
He as much as admitted that he would say anything to win on national TV. Mr. Straight Talk died for me in that moment. I had actually been one of those liberal white educated male independent voters who found McCain's mix of plain language and proven ballsiness (specifically around campaign finance and immigration, he lost me completely on the war) to be interesting, if not compelling evidence of some sort of human life on planet GOP. But when I heard him say this, the scales fell away.
Personally, I think this is perfect campaign ad material. McCain was for being a lying scumbag before he pretended to be against it.
I can't seem to find the clip online. Perhaps a better google-meister can dig it up. McCain had a priceless look of humiliation on his face as he gave the money quote above. I saw it again when Whoopi Goldberg asked him if she should worry about having to be a slave again since he favored appointing judges who would "not change" the constitution of the founding fathers' era. (That was the most sizzling moment of the "View" session, which I found stunningly powerful all around, but I haven't seen Whoopi's zinger blogged yet. McCain's eyes dropped, his body drooped, and he conceded that she had a point, in a weird off-message moment of visible shame.)
I will continue to have faith that Americans will rise to the occasion and vote their own best interests this time. One can see clearly what a catastrophic mess McCain/Palin will make for the US on the foundations Bush has laid for them. We're going to be underwater in a Category 5 shitstorm by 2012.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Another notable moment occurred on April 4, 2006, when Stewart confronted his longtime friend, US Senator John McCain, about his decision to appear at Liberty University, an institution founded by Jerry Falwell, a man who McCain had previously denounced as one of the "agents of intolerance".[36][37] In the interchange, Stewart asked McCain "You're not freaking out on us? Are you freaking out on us, because if you're freaking out and you're going into the crazy base [politics] world— are you going into crazy base world?" McCain replied "I'm afraid so." The clip was played on CNN and created a surge of articles across the blogosphere.[38][39]
He as much as admitted that he would say anything to win on national TV. Mr. Straight Talk died for me in that moment. I had actually been one of those liberal white educated male independent voters who found McCain's mix of plain language and proven ballsiness (specifically around campaign finance and immigration, he lost me completely on the war) to be interesting, if not compelling evidence of some sort of human life on planet GOP. But when I heard him say this, the scales fell away.
Personally, I think this is perfect campaign ad material. McCain was for being a lying scumbag before he pretended to be against it.
I can't seem to find the clip online. Perhaps a better google-meister can dig it up. McCain had a priceless look of humiliation on his face as he gave the money quote above. I saw it again when Whoopi Goldberg asked him if she should worry about having to be a slave again since he favored appointing judges who would "not change" the constitution of the founding fathers' era. (That was the most sizzling moment of the "View" session, which I found stunningly powerful all around, but I haven't seen Whoopi's zinger blogged yet. McCain's eyes dropped, his body drooped, and he conceded that she had a point, in a weird off-message moment of visible shame.)
I will continue to have faith that Americans will rise to the occasion and vote their own best interests this time. One can see clearly what a catastrophic mess McCain/Palin will make for the US on the foundations Bush has laid for them. We're going to be underwater in a Category 5 shitstorm by 2012.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
We're "still going to win this.." if we put our time, energy, and money where our mouths are...
I feel this whole heartedly. I've donated already (pre-Palin) to the Obama campaign, and I will soon be calling my 84 yo Southern Baptist grandfather in Mississippi, and telling him why I am supporting Obama. He's been sick of Bush, and is likely going to sit this election out. But maybe I can make a difference for him. If I wasn't completely derailed by health issues, I would be out campaigning for Obama like I did for Dean. But as it is, I'm still going to have a few heartfelt conversations with my fence sitting relatives in TN and MS.
As for Palin, the Dems have got to shift the spotlight back on McCain. He's hiding in her shadow. The best line to take on Palin is to ignore her as the political non-entity she is. Let the NYTimes and media keep digging, but the Dem's need to refocus, and quickly. They are letting the GOP messaging machine (Rove, Luntz, et al) get the upper hand yet again.
posted by kimdog at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2008
I feel this whole heartedly. I've donated already (pre-Palin) to the Obama campaign, and I will soon be calling my 84 yo Southern Baptist grandfather in Mississippi, and telling him why I am supporting Obama. He's been sick of Bush, and is likely going to sit this election out. But maybe I can make a difference for him. If I wasn't completely derailed by health issues, I would be out campaigning for Obama like I did for Dean. But as it is, I'm still going to have a few heartfelt conversations with my fence sitting relatives in TN and MS.
As for Palin, the Dems have got to shift the spotlight back on McCain. He's hiding in her shadow. The best line to take on Palin is to ignore her as the political non-entity she is. Let the NYTimes and media keep digging, but the Dem's need to refocus, and quickly. They are letting the GOP messaging machine (Rove, Luntz, et al) get the upper hand yet again.
posted by kimdog at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2008
Palin happens to have cheekbones she didn't earn
Am I reading you right? I hope I'm not reading you right.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2008
Am I reading you right? I hope I'm not reading you right.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2008
tgrundke--you keep referring to "flyover states" and "large swaths of America", but I think you need to learn how to generalize a little better...
Today's Iowa Poll: Obama opens double-digit lead
posted by jaronson at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Today's Iowa Poll: Obama opens double-digit lead
posted by jaronson at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Even worse, they do not learn. On the Republican side, these are the same people who voted for W in 2000 and 2004 because they thought he "shared their values" and was "someone like them".
Which is why I don't understand why the left didn't bash the "guy you'd like to have a beer with" meme into the ground so as to kill future application. See the bear? Taste the food. Guy you'd like to have a beer with? W. Remember how well that turned out?
Until you kill the deep-seated anti-intellectualism in America, how exactly are you going to keep the cream from sinking to the bottom, every single time?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Which is why I don't understand why the left didn't bash the "guy you'd like to have a beer with" meme into the ground so as to kill future application. See the bear? Taste the food. Guy you'd like to have a beer with? W. Remember how well that turned out?
Until you kill the deep-seated anti-intellectualism in America, how exactly are you going to keep the cream from sinking to the bottom, every single time?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
jaranson: True, and forgetting that those "flyover" states gave the Democrats a congressional and senate majority in 2006, along with record-breaking fundraising and primary voting. What doesn't get counted in the polls is the fact that this election year, the Democrats have had a much better record getting new voters to the polls.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:52 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:52 AM on September 14, 2008
Palin has accomplished one thing: she made the election far more about personality than it had been before. Which is not to say that it hadn't been about that before - elections are always about personality, and Obama and McCain both have written best sellers about their personal histories which were meant to convince you to vote for them - but until Palin, there was at least a pretense of debate about competency. The anti-Obama ads accused him of being inexperienced, a criticism which is, after all, relevant to the position he's seeking, and the anti-McCain ads were about how he says he doesn't know much about the economy, changes his opinion about relations with Russia regularly, flip-flops on whether or not we'll increase the payroll tax depending on whether you ask him about taxes or about balancing the budget, or about how he plans to carry on with many of Bush's less successful programs... and all of those criticisms are relevant to the position he's seeking. Now, however, the debate has become: is pointing out that being the mayor of a city of 9,000 isn't the same as being President of a nation of 250 million automatically against small town America and its values? Which is a patently absurd question that some people are taking very seriously.
If Obama wants to win - and I am very serious about this - instead of attacking Palin, he needs to just ignore the shit out of her, and keep up what he has been doing - attacking Bush. At this point, Bush has been the least popular President for the longest period of time in polling history. Anymore, being against Bush isn't even a position; its just common sense. But pointing out Palins flaws just reinforces her personality, which is her strength; you'll force people to choose sides, and that won't necessarily go well for you. Saying "she doesn't know what she's doing" - which is backed up from recent quotes from her to the effect that she doesn't actually know what the Vice President's job entails, or recent quotes that made it clear that she has no idea what the Freddie Mae / Fannie Mac buyout is about, or quotes that makes it clear that she thinks going to war in Russia is a good idea - well, that attack is going to make some people think "when they say she doesn't know what she's doing, they mean a woman isn't fit to be president" or "they think that just because she's from a small town she has to be dumb", or whatever. It will make her appear incompetent to some, but sympathetic to others.
For awhile, I was waffling about whether or not adding Palin to the ticket was a wise move, but I think that its a given that the issues don't really speak well for McCain at the moment (since as I said, many of his issues are Bush's issues, and people want a change), but I've finally decided that picking a likeable personality who could make the election about personality instead of the issues was a brilliant move for him. For the first time in months he's in an actual position where he could win. For Obama to counter-act that, then, he can't play the personality games McCain started. That's a losing proposition. He can either try to reinforce whatever small-town American values that he and Biden can represent, or he can try to negate her personality by shackling it to very unpopular personalities like Bush / Cheney. But he can't retreat to the issues now that its about the cult of personality, and he can't let her personality seem more American / friendlier / whatever than his personality is. Its that simple.
posted by Kiablokirk at 9:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
If Obama wants to win - and I am very serious about this - instead of attacking Palin, he needs to just ignore the shit out of her, and keep up what he has been doing - attacking Bush. At this point, Bush has been the least popular President for the longest period of time in polling history. Anymore, being against Bush isn't even a position; its just common sense. But pointing out Palins flaws just reinforces her personality, which is her strength; you'll force people to choose sides, and that won't necessarily go well for you. Saying "she doesn't know what she's doing" - which is backed up from recent quotes from her to the effect that she doesn't actually know what the Vice President's job entails, or recent quotes that made it clear that she has no idea what the Freddie Mae / Fannie Mac buyout is about, or quotes that makes it clear that she thinks going to war in Russia is a good idea - well, that attack is going to make some people think "when they say she doesn't know what she's doing, they mean a woman isn't fit to be president" or "they think that just because she's from a small town she has to be dumb", or whatever. It will make her appear incompetent to some, but sympathetic to others.
For awhile, I was waffling about whether or not adding Palin to the ticket was a wise move, but I think that its a given that the issues don't really speak well for McCain at the moment (since as I said, many of his issues are Bush's issues, and people want a change), but I've finally decided that picking a likeable personality who could make the election about personality instead of the issues was a brilliant move for him. For the first time in months he's in an actual position where he could win. For Obama to counter-act that, then, he can't play the personality games McCain started. That's a losing proposition. He can either try to reinforce whatever small-town American values that he and Biden can represent, or he can try to negate her personality by shackling it to very unpopular personalities like Bush / Cheney. But he can't retreat to the issues now that its about the cult of personality, and he can't let her personality seem more American / friendlier / whatever than his personality is. Its that simple.
posted by Kiablokirk at 9:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin is still repeating that bridge to nowhere line. She's a marathon liar.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Bookhouse at 9:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
FYI, the Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor thing got airtime on Meet The Press this morning. (Brokaw showed a pin with that slogan on it and asked Guiliani to comment on it.
posted by anastasiav at 9:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by anastasiav at 9:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
neroli- I totally see your point. I can't believe McCain waited 20 years before ever taking any action in the Senate. How did he ever get re-elected? Now how about actually comparing the experience that the candidates have. I mean only if, you know, it is not too inconvenient a truth.
posted by MapGuy at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2008
Obama can regain the serve by running a one word commercial, with the word "dishonorable" over McCain's face and a running scroll of what so many thoughtful people are saying this weekend below, for 30 seconds.
Make McCain respond to that. Pull a Rove and make his "strength" his weakness. Without honor, McCain is a western-state version of a ward pol, and Palin just another trick.
Because now Obama has a singular advantage: the worst thing he can say about McCain is the truth.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:06 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Make McCain respond to that. Pull a Rove and make his "strength" his weakness. Without honor, McCain is a western-state version of a ward pol, and Palin just another trick.
Because now Obama has a singular advantage: the worst thing he can say about McCain is the truth.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:06 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
"I am not among those who have said 'earmarks are nothing more than pork projects being shoveled home by an overeager congressional delegation.' [...] My role at the federal level is simply to submit the most well-conceived earmark requests we can. [...] For better or worse, earmarks, which represent only about 1 percent of the federal budget, have become a symbol for budgetary discussions in general."
--Sarah Palin, Fairbanks Daily News-Miner, March 5, 2008
posted by neroli at 10:07 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
--Sarah Palin, Fairbanks Daily News-Miner, March 5, 2008
posted by neroli at 10:07 AM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Since you brought it up Here is the group Obama tied his kite string to. Imagine if Palin had been running with this crowd, you would be screaming it from the mountain tops. Just sayin'. But let's not get distracted.
posted by MapGuy at 10:07 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 10:07 AM on September 14, 2008
Mapguy - Holy crap. That's a real goddamned article? Like he's serious? Honest to god dead pan serious?
From the article -
In his 12 years as a law school professor, Obama failed to publish a single item, an oddity in the world of academia, especially when you consider that, since 2006, when he decided to run for president, he has published seven times.
Politically, Obama spent eight years in the Illinois Senate and joined the U.S. Senate in 2005.
Palin, on the other hand, served four years on the Wasilla, Alaska, City Council and six years as the mayor/manager. She became the first woman governor of Alaska in 2006. He private-sector management experience includes helping her husband run his commercial fishing business.
Fishing business. In a serious article. About someone who could potentially be the NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!?!?!
We're fucked. Every last one of us. We've descended into some fucked up dystopian precursor to Idiocracy 2 : The Handmaid's Tale.
I can't even begin to get my head around any of this. 8 years of the worst government this country has ever endured. 8 years of a political party that has done everything in it's power to dismantle 200 years of what made the country great.
And we've got 52% of people thinking "Hey, I like the cut of this Guys jib. Reminds me of someone else though. anyhoo.."
AARGH!
I'll still fight the good fight, but we've really maxed out the fuckedupitedness meter.
Also, I'm slightly worried about the fact that there is a very nasty economic endgame set up based off of whether the world community decides if we're fit to run the world anymore.
Russians in Venezuala, Control over Georgian Pipeline + Willingness to face down over Iran = Energy balls in a vice
Chinese ready to drop the hammer on dollar divesture = Currency balls in a vice.
They're just waiting to see if we can elect someone who isn't incompetent or batshit insane to office.
posted by Lord_Pall at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
From the article -
In his 12 years as a law school professor, Obama failed to publish a single item, an oddity in the world of academia, especially when you consider that, since 2006, when he decided to run for president, he has published seven times.
Politically, Obama spent eight years in the Illinois Senate and joined the U.S. Senate in 2005.
Palin, on the other hand, served four years on the Wasilla, Alaska, City Council and six years as the mayor/manager. She became the first woman governor of Alaska in 2006. He private-sector management experience includes helping her husband run his commercial fishing business.
Fishing business. In a serious article. About someone who could potentially be the NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!?!?!
We're fucked. Every last one of us. We've descended into some fucked up dystopian precursor to Idiocracy 2 : The Handmaid's Tale.
I can't even begin to get my head around any of this. 8 years of the worst government this country has ever endured. 8 years of a political party that has done everything in it's power to dismantle 200 years of what made the country great.
And we've got 52% of people thinking "Hey, I like the cut of this Guys jib. Reminds me of someone else though. anyhoo.."
AARGH!
I'll still fight the good fight, but we've really maxed out the fuckedupitedness meter.
Also, I'm slightly worried about the fact that there is a very nasty economic endgame set up based off of whether the world community decides if we're fit to run the world anymore.
Russians in Venezuala, Control over Georgian Pipeline + Willingness to face down over Iran = Energy balls in a vice
Chinese ready to drop the hammer on dollar divesture = Currency balls in a vice.
They're just waiting to see if we can elect someone who isn't incompetent or batshit insane to office.
posted by Lord_Pall at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
Get Out The Vote.
The batshitinsane portion of the USA is not the majority, they're just highly motivated to get off their asses and vote.
If you do not want the batshitinsane to become the deciding factor in this election, then get out the vote. Make damn sure you and all your not-batshitinsane friends and acquaintances get to the polls on election day.
This truly is a historic election, in which I think it's going to be very fair to say the USA will get the President it deserves.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
The batshitinsane portion of the USA is not the majority, they're just highly motivated to get off their asses and vote.
If you do not want the batshitinsane to become the deciding factor in this election, then get out the vote. Make damn sure you and all your not-batshitinsane friends and acquaintances get to the polls on election day.
This truly is a historic election, in which I think it's going to be very fair to say the USA will get the President it deserves.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Andrew Sullivan has a nice catch from the Times piece:
And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor’s career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said. “You should be ashamed!” Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. “Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!”posted by fourcheesemac at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
[to which Sullivan adds]
Now I begin to understand the intimidation I have been subjected to for simply asking questions. All I can reassure my readers is: I'm now more determined than ever to reveal the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about this dangerous, vindictive Christianist cipher being foisted on the United States.
But let's not get distracted.
By all means, let's not. But with all due respect, linking to blogs written by a couple of right wing hacks isn't helping us stay focused.
posted by psmealey at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
By all means, let's not. But with all due respect, linking to blogs written by a couple of right wing hacks isn't helping us stay focused.
posted by psmealey at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
This week's financial news is going to be all Lehman Bros. going bankrupt. If I recall correctly, these were the guys who were given a massive federal gift of monies in return for taking over Bear Stearns. I can't help but feel this was a purposeful move to shift citizens' wealth (in the form of tax income) to the ultra-elite who own and operate these businesses, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
Anyhoo, looks like the US banking industry, and possibly the entire financial industry, is going straight express to hell.
What do McCain and Obama plan to do about this? Of all the issues facing the USA today, surely the financial crisis is the most significant.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anyhoo, looks like the US banking industry, and possibly the entire financial industry, is going straight express to hell.
What do McCain and Obama plan to do about this? Of all the issues facing the USA today, surely the financial crisis is the most significant.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think McCain's falling into a trap. Here's the rope-a-dope.
Narrative thread one, which has been running since June or so: "McCain=Bush", we all know the tune by heart: John McCain votes with Bush 90% of the time. McCain supports every Bush policy: tax cuts for the rich, Iraq, oil industry perks, not a dime's worth of difference. His campaign and his White House are run by the same crazy warmongers and lobbyists who have been a disaster for the past eight years. He is out of touch with the concerns of ordinary Americans and is just as clueless as Bush on the economy, housing, jobs, etc. Obama is the future, McCain is the past.
Thread two, which is just ramping up now: "McCain/Palin= dishonorable liars": John McCain (and his clueless, dangerous second Sarah Palin) are unrepentant liars. Note examples one thru seventy...Bridge to Nowhere lies, never been to Iraq lies, foreign policy cred lies, proximity to Russia nonsense. McCain has exposed himself as a dishonorable liar with highly questionable judgment who sacrificed his sacred honor for a shot at the Presidency.
(note well the use of that term "dishonorable", it's no accident, it's McCain's "fuck you" button. If he loses his temper in public, it's all over. But I digress.)
How to close the argument? How do these teeth come together in the end, like a zipper? How is John McCain most like George Bush? How do you remind people of why change is so very necessary, and tie McCain to the last eight years of failed policies and unaccountable government? Here's how. After making an impassioned plea that ideas matter, that the truth matters, that change is crucial:
America cannot afford four more years of corrupt Washington insiders like George Bush and John McCain covering up the repeated failures of the status quo with their coordinated campaigns of lies.
Bonus points if you can say it to McCain's face during the debates.
posted by edverb at 10:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Narrative thread one, which has been running since June or so: "McCain=Bush", we all know the tune by heart: John McCain votes with Bush 90% of the time. McCain supports every Bush policy: tax cuts for the rich, Iraq, oil industry perks, not a dime's worth of difference. His campaign and his White House are run by the same crazy warmongers and lobbyists who have been a disaster for the past eight years. He is out of touch with the concerns of ordinary Americans and is just as clueless as Bush on the economy, housing, jobs, etc. Obama is the future, McCain is the past.
Thread two, which is just ramping up now: "McCain/Palin= dishonorable liars": John McCain (and his clueless, dangerous second Sarah Palin) are unrepentant liars. Note examples one thru seventy...Bridge to Nowhere lies, never been to Iraq lies, foreign policy cred lies, proximity to Russia nonsense. McCain has exposed himself as a dishonorable liar with highly questionable judgment who sacrificed his sacred honor for a shot at the Presidency.
(note well the use of that term "dishonorable", it's no accident, it's McCain's "fuck you" button. If he loses his temper in public, it's all over. But I digress.)
How to close the argument? How do these teeth come together in the end, like a zipper? How is John McCain most like George Bush? How do you remind people of why change is so very necessary, and tie McCain to the last eight years of failed policies and unaccountable government? Here's how. After making an impassioned plea that ideas matter, that the truth matters, that change is crucial:
America cannot afford four more years of corrupt Washington insiders like George Bush and John McCain covering up the repeated failures of the status quo with their coordinated campaigns of lies.
Bonus points if you can say it to McCain's face during the debates.
posted by edverb at 10:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin represents the pioneering woman who settled the old west, the woman who gets up every morning at 5:00am, fixes breakfast for her family, gets the kids on the bus, goes to work, comes home, cooks dinner ... &c.
But the fact remains that these are not qualifications for V.P. Republican women in office (Snowe; Hutchison; &c.) did not get there on SuperMom credentials. Palin's appeal among that base you describe holds true yet is an insult to the well-qualified female politicians who earned their rank and built their careers, perhaps in tandem with a family & children, but not *because* of them.
So if these neo-pioneer sector indeed reflects Paglia's laundry list of relatability-appeal, it says more about the impact of "American Idol" type image-driven messages than about their (in)ability to distinguish who belongs at the helm of the PTA vs. at the helm of the country's highest office. Their unblinking acceptance of the *lack* of Palin's credentials undermines the muck Snowe, Hutchison & other have endured to legitimize women's credibility within a male-dominated establishment. It borders on hypocrisy to manage their children's environment with an eye for careful judgment but not the position of their country's leadership and who belongs there. And it doubly undermines the integrity of female politicians' willingness to endure scrutiny and bias, for said pioneer-hearkening moms to cry 'Foul' and whine as their Idol is called out on questionable records, same as any male counterpart ought to be.
It's further baffling me how disproportionately men, more so than (even these) women, poll approvingly of the choice. Have Americans really become that impoverished in distinguishing style from substance? Then it's *my* turn to plead ignorant -- that phrase so frequently deployed on The Thread -- only in this case I've been totally ignorant of the extent to which many of our citizens' ability to map the terrain of political discourse has eroded.
posted by skyper at 10:21 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
But the fact remains that these are not qualifications for V.P. Republican women in office (Snowe; Hutchison; &c.) did not get there on SuperMom credentials. Palin's appeal among that base you describe holds true yet is an insult to the well-qualified female politicians who earned their rank and built their careers, perhaps in tandem with a family & children, but not *because* of them.
So if these neo-pioneer sector indeed reflects Paglia's laundry list of relatability-appeal, it says more about the impact of "American Idol" type image-driven messages than about their (in)ability to distinguish who belongs at the helm of the PTA vs. at the helm of the country's highest office. Their unblinking acceptance of the *lack* of Palin's credentials undermines the muck Snowe, Hutchison & other have endured to legitimize women's credibility within a male-dominated establishment. It borders on hypocrisy to manage their children's environment with an eye for careful judgment but not the position of their country's leadership and who belongs there. And it doubly undermines the integrity of female politicians' willingness to endure scrutiny and bias, for said pioneer-hearkening moms to cry 'Foul' and whine as their Idol is called out on questionable records, same as any male counterpart ought to be.
It's further baffling me how disproportionately men, more so than (even these) women, poll approvingly of the choice. Have Americans really become that impoverished in distinguishing style from substance? Then it's *my* turn to plead ignorant -- that phrase so frequently deployed on The Thread -- only in this case I've been totally ignorant of the extent to which many of our citizens' ability to map the terrain of political discourse has eroded.
posted by skyper at 10:21 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Mister_A, in my comment above, I was perhaps being too subtle, or obvious. Simply put Palin is a distraction from actual issues. There are many examples of this other than the obvious 1 issue voters. Some mentioned earlier in this thread. Some people relate to her as the Hockey Mom they try to portray her as. Others for her Religious beliefs. "A breath of fresh air." I work with a few men that probably masturbate to her.
What's common in all those cases is no matter what comes out of her mouth, or comes out about her, it's the one thing they think of when they see her, and they forget everything else.
Certainly McCain has shown some excellent slight of hand here.
posted by Eekacat at 10:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
What's common in all those cases is no matter what comes out of her mouth, or comes out about her, it's the one thing they think of when they see her, and they forget everything else.
Certainly McCain has shown some excellent slight of hand here.
posted by Eekacat at 10:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
We're still going to win this, right?
Jesus Christ, no, we're not. Honestly, the situation reminds me of nothing more than bullying on an elementary school playground. Bully calls you a 'dork' or a 'fag' or something like that, maybe pushes you down. Now you have three options:
a) call him a 'dork' or a 'fag,' try to push him. But this doesn't work because your heart isn't in it: you know better than to be so offensive and brutish. Plus he's bigger and badder than you. He just laughs at your futile efforts, and so do all his friends. Bully wins.
b) take the high road, fight back with something like, "well, you're just a mean and immoral scoundrel. And besides, there's nothing wrong with being bookish (or gay), in fact my superior intellect will one day propel me into a top university, while you will flounder in a backwards job for your life, simply because you don't share my value in education." You sound defensive and even more 'dorky,' in fact you just confirm the bully's initial taunts. Bully wins.
c) you ignore him, walk away, while his friends continue to point and laugh. You concede defeat. Bully wins.
Eventually, elementary school ended. I moved away from such people, did go to a good school, got a good job and a good life where the moral code involves mutual respect and consideration. I was elated to find that 'real life' was not mean and petty and maddeningly impossible for 'nice guys' to succeed in. I thought I'd never face such a maddening, frustrating, hopeless, totally humiliating situation again.
But now I see what this election is like, and, with a sickening feeling, the analogy that keeps coming back to my mind is that Obama is the 'dork' on the playground, and McCain and his gang are the big bullies. And Obama has no way to stop them: he can't fight back because it's not in his constitution to be a bully, he can't take the moral high ground (focus on the issues, promulgate the facts) because he just comes off looking pathetic and defensive, and he can't ignore it, because then McCain gets to define the whole narrative. Mark my words, Obama has no escape. Hopefully someday he can find a more civil circle in which to revolve, a more civil profession. I hear the U of C needs a good Consitutional Law Professor...
posted by notswedish at 10:24 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Jesus Christ, no, we're not. Honestly, the situation reminds me of nothing more than bullying on an elementary school playground. Bully calls you a 'dork' or a 'fag' or something like that, maybe pushes you down. Now you have three options:
a) call him a 'dork' or a 'fag,' try to push him. But this doesn't work because your heart isn't in it: you know better than to be so offensive and brutish. Plus he's bigger and badder than you. He just laughs at your futile efforts, and so do all his friends. Bully wins.
b) take the high road, fight back with something like, "well, you're just a mean and immoral scoundrel. And besides, there's nothing wrong with being bookish (or gay), in fact my superior intellect will one day propel me into a top university, while you will flounder in a backwards job for your life, simply because you don't share my value in education." You sound defensive and even more 'dorky,' in fact you just confirm the bully's initial taunts. Bully wins.
c) you ignore him, walk away, while his friends continue to point and laugh. You concede defeat. Bully wins.
Eventually, elementary school ended. I moved away from such people, did go to a good school, got a good job and a good life where the moral code involves mutual respect and consideration. I was elated to find that 'real life' was not mean and petty and maddeningly impossible for 'nice guys' to succeed in. I thought I'd never face such a maddening, frustrating, hopeless, totally humiliating situation again.
But now I see what this election is like, and, with a sickening feeling, the analogy that keeps coming back to my mind is that Obama is the 'dork' on the playground, and McCain and his gang are the big bullies. And Obama has no way to stop them: he can't fight back because it's not in his constitution to be a bully, he can't take the moral high ground (focus on the issues, promulgate the facts) because he just comes off looking pathetic and defensive, and he can't ignore it, because then McCain gets to define the whole narrative. Mark my words, Obama has no escape. Hopefully someday he can find a more civil circle in which to revolve, a more civil profession. I hear the U of C needs a good Consitutional Law Professor...
posted by notswedish at 10:24 AM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Lord_Pall well technically speaking what he says is true as absurd as it may sound. Go ahead look up the word executive. I guess you could count Obama's time at Harvard as executive experience, what was president of the student union or somethng? Was that when he was smoking weed, or was that before?
And as I understand it Obama was affiliated with a group that is engaged in and has been or is being prosecuted for widespread voter fraud. I would not have mentioned it but some one brought up the Jesus Christ community organizer thing. Again if were McCain or Palin, what would you say. So we will give Obama credit on the executive experience at Harvard if you will allow that his work with ACORN was spent supporting the work of a criminal organization bent on stealing elections.
Hey, I would love to stay here all day and do this but NASCAR is on and then football. And Tina Fey was totally hot as Sarah last night, she nailed it. My God did you see the way she cocked that gun. The crowd just went wild. Have fun guys. Truth is the whole thing is absurd. I bet Ron Paul ain’t looking so bad about right now.
posted by MapGuy at 10:29 AM on September 14, 2008
And as I understand it Obama was affiliated with a group that is engaged in and has been or is being prosecuted for widespread voter fraud. I would not have mentioned it but some one brought up the Jesus Christ community organizer thing. Again if were McCain or Palin, what would you say. So we will give Obama credit on the executive experience at Harvard if you will allow that his work with ACORN was spent supporting the work of a criminal organization bent on stealing elections.
Hey, I would love to stay here all day and do this but NASCAR is on and then football. And Tina Fey was totally hot as Sarah last night, she nailed it. My God did you see the way she cocked that gun. The crowd just went wild. Have fun guys. Truth is the whole thing is absurd. I bet Ron Paul ain’t looking so bad about right now.
posted by MapGuy at 10:29 AM on September 14, 2008
America cannot afford four more years of corrupt Washington insiders like George Bush and John McCain covering up the repeated failures of the status quo with their coordinated campaigns of lies.
Repeated for emphasis. You know what else we can't afford? Another election season dominated by non-issues based on personality and culture wars.
For all the pro-life noise coming from the republicans these last 30+ years, what have they actually done to further that cause?
These small-town values voters really need to take a hard look at themselves and what they are voting for (or against) and ask themselves if they are behaving in a morally correct way by being taken in by these charlatans, while the nation's financial and physical infrastructure crumbles, and impoverishes us all.
posted by psmealey at 10:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Repeated for emphasis. You know what else we can't afford? Another election season dominated by non-issues based on personality and culture wars.
For all the pro-life noise coming from the republicans these last 30+ years, what have they actually done to further that cause?
These small-town values voters really need to take a hard look at themselves and what they are voting for (or against) and ask themselves if they are behaving in a morally correct way by being taken in by these charlatans, while the nation's financial and physical infrastructure crumbles, and impoverishes us all.
posted by psmealey at 10:29 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
But let's not get distracted.
By another article from a self-loathing racist twerp like Malkin? Yeahno, her attempts to insinuate herself into mainstream American conservatism through her hysterical, childress rants fail right from the start: she's Filipino, not a real American.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:30 AM on September 14, 2008
By another article from a self-loathing racist twerp like Malkin? Yeahno, her attempts to insinuate herself into mainstream American conservatism through her hysterical, childress rants fail right from the start: she's Filipino, not a real American.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:30 AM on September 14, 2008
So Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy, circumventing both the laws and the facts whenever those prove inconvenient. Sound like anybody else we know?
It infuriates me that it's taken two weeks now for some degree of reality-checking of the new face of the McCain campaign to just start gaining traction in the mainstream media and the mind of the general public. I guess we needed "The View" to break the ice and make it acceptable to call a lie a lie?
posted by Robin Kestrel at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
It infuriates me that it's taken two weeks now for some degree of reality-checking of the new face of the McCain campaign to just start gaining traction in the mainstream media and the mind of the general public. I guess we needed "The View" to break the ice and make it acceptable to call a lie a lie?
posted by Robin Kestrel at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
And as I understand it Obama was affiliated with a group that is engaged in and has been or is being prosecuted for widespread voter fraud.
As you understand it from Michelle Malkin's hit piece. ACORN is a community organization one of whose objective is getting out the vote in low to medium income areas. The mud that you help sling alludes to "allegations" and "implications", but nothing with respect to convictions. Of course such an organization, based on its mission, will end up on the receiving end of numerous and scurrilous lawsuits, given the charged times we live in.
Thanks for playing, you really helped clear things up.
posted by psmealey at 10:34 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
As you understand it from Michelle Malkin's hit piece. ACORN is a community organization one of whose objective is getting out the vote in low to medium income areas. The mud that you help sling alludes to "allegations" and "implications", but nothing with respect to convictions. Of course such an organization, based on its mission, will end up on the receiving end of numerous and scurrilous lawsuits, given the charged times we live in.
Thanks for playing, you really helped clear things up.
posted by psmealey at 10:34 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Oooh, scary, a "media backlash" against the McCain/Palin campaign. The media can say anything they want about Palin, and it will not change the outcome of the election - the "morans" who vote for the Republican ticket most likely don't even read all that much.
And besides, voting booth shenanigans and blatant disenfranchisement (remember Florida? remember Ohio?) will have more effect on this election than anything else.
Americans, your country is in trouble.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:34 AM on September 14, 2008
And besides, voting booth shenanigans and blatant disenfranchisement (remember Florida? remember Ohio?) will have more effect on this election than anything else.
Americans, your country is in trouble.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:34 AM on September 14, 2008
notswedish: Both Obama and Biden have gone on the counter-offensive multiple times.
But, and here is something everyone is missing here, all we are talking about is perceptions of the relative status of candidates as presented in the mass media.
The same mass media who dragged on a story that was dead in early June into the Democratic convention.
The same mass media that spoke to Bill Clinton during a commercial break in 1992, "Ted Turner changed the world. He would serve you, you know what I mean?"
A basic problem is that the game is rigged by a third party, and neither Obama or McCain have more than a token control over the how the debate is framed.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2008
But, and here is something everyone is missing here, all we are talking about is perceptions of the relative status of candidates as presented in the mass media.
The same mass media who dragged on a story that was dead in early June into the Democratic convention.
The same mass media that spoke to Bill Clinton during a commercial break in 1992, "Ted Turner changed the world. He would serve you, you know what I mean?"
A basic problem is that the game is rigged by a third party, and neither Obama or McCain have more than a token control over the how the debate is framed.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2008
Almost 150 comments already? Man, I haven't even finished reading the first Palin thread yet.
posted by box at 10:41 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by box at 10:41 AM on September 14, 2008
I guess we needed "The View" to break the ice and make it acceptable to call a lie a lie
I am proud of The View.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:42 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I am proud of The View.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:42 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
MapGuy, if Sarah Palin had real experience, they wouldn't have to resort to the claim that Alaska's proximity to Russia makes her an expert.
How it must feel for Republicans to go into a battle for the nation's soul armed with such pathetic, absurd, desperate bullshit. "Alaska and Russia are close to each other! You can see it from one of our islands!" Yep, she's a regular Dwight D. Eisenhower.
posted by edverb at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2008
How it must feel for Republicans to go into a battle for the nation's soul armed with such pathetic, absurd, desperate bullshit. "Alaska and Russia are close to each other! You can see it from one of our islands!" Yep, she's a regular Dwight D. Eisenhower.
posted by edverb at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2008
I am proud of The View.
I wish they'd frozen Kronkite's head and thawed it out every four years. It's sad that the only people on public television with any balls left are a panel of women on the downside of their careers. Come to think of it, that's all we need: a bunch of no-hope, dead enders to frame the discussion. "Born to Lose" tattoo? Here's your microphone.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2008
I wish they'd frozen Kronkite's head and thawed it out every four years. It's sad that the only people on public television with any balls left are a panel of women on the downside of their careers. Come to think of it, that's all we need: a bunch of no-hope, dead enders to frame the discussion. "Born to Lose" tattoo? Here's your microphone.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2008
Here's what I get from Palin. She's a cypher, much in the same way Bush was a cypher. An attractive figurehead for the hard-right. She obviously hasn't any real policies or opinions of her own. Rather, she's an attractive proxy for whoever the power-brokers behind her are.You kidding? Palin is Nixon with a pretty face. She's "manipulated" to the extent that she doesn't really care about policy in the first place, but she's clearly lusting for power and surrounds herself with loyal incompetents.
For better or worse the last 30 years has proven America will take the "holier than thou" candidate over the "we know what's best for you" candidate. Do you hear me, Al Gore and John Kerry? This is why you lost, and if Obama isn't careful, he will too.Do you really think a black guy could have gotten elected 30 years ago? Things change, and we have a dramatically different situation then even 2000. I mean, I think the American people would be happy to vote for someone who has some idea of 'what's best' rather then incompetents with no clue. Neither Kerry nor Gore fought effectively. Kerry sucked, and Gore didn't really bring the heat either (of course we had no idea how bad things would get, so it was a different situation)
Finally 2000 was a coin flip that Bush won that coin-flip (with help from his brother and Katharine Harris) proves nothing about the electorate. Kerry was a horrible campaigner, but came very close to winning anyway. If it hadn't been for the swift-boaters and his tepid response, he'd probably be president. Saying those essentially arbitrary events "proves" anything about American politics is sort of absurd.
Since you brought it up Here is the group Obama tied his kite string to. Imagine if Palin had been running with this crowd, you would be screaming it from the mountain tops. Just sayin'. But let's not get distracted.Ah yes, noted racist Michelle Malkin, obviously her characterization of ACORN is spot on, after all someone with the penetrating insight to say, in the 21st century, that Japanese-American internment during WWII a great idea is obviously someone we should take seriously.
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on September 14, 2008
We're still going to win this, right?
Jesus Christ, no, we're not.
This kind of panic is unbecoming and unhelpful.
posted by effwerd at 10:50 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Jesus Christ, no, we're not.
This kind of panic is unbecoming and unhelpful.
posted by effwerd at 10:50 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
How low will things go?
good question but what was babs thinkingthat she and could rattle Strabo
i.e. 'The View' interview.
and why won't Barrack have town halls with or this that just guff. Apollo desended into Flint the other day and challenged Strabo (McCain) to a talk in Flint but that is a difficult one.
maybe barrack wants to hold a "war council", in Flint, like his friend Bill Ayers did, wanting TO SELL THIS COUNTRY AWAY FOR SLAUGHTER.
but that was then....
this election has been tame Madame with respect to your post.
:)
posted by clavdivs at 10:54 AM on September 14, 2008
good question but what was babs thinkingthat she and could rattle Strabo
i.e. 'The View' interview.
and why won't Barrack have town halls with or this that just guff. Apollo desended into Flint the other day and challenged Strabo (McCain) to a talk in Flint but that is a difficult one.
maybe barrack wants to hold a "war council", in Flint, like his friend Bill Ayers did, wanting TO SELL THIS COUNTRY AWAY FOR SLAUGHTER.
but that was then....
this election has been tame Madame with respect to your post.
:)
posted by clavdivs at 10:54 AM on September 14, 2008
To be specific with ACORN, what happened is that they paid people to register voters. One of their employees faked some registration forms in order to get paid more, in other words, to defraud ACORN (actions which would have no effect on the election). ACORN cooperated with the FBI during the help prosecute the fraudsters.
In other words, ACORN was the victim of the crime, not the perpetrator, but because ACORN's mission is to register lower-income people to vote, the republican slimeballs are willing to say anything to discredit it.
posted by delmoi at 10:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [32 favorites]
In other words, ACORN was the victim of the crime, not the perpetrator, but because ACORN's mission is to register lower-income people to vote, the republican slimeballs are willing to say anything to discredit it.
posted by delmoi at 10:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [32 favorites]
...as a law school professor, Obama failed to publish a single item, an oddity in the world of academia....
He wrote Dreams of My Father (1996) with support of the University of Chicago. They provided him with a fellowship to do so.
posted by ericb at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
He wrote Dreams of My Father (1996) with support of the University of Chicago. They provided him with a fellowship to do so.
“Mr. Obama was given an office to write in at the University of Chicago through a surprising connection. Douglas G. Baird, a professor who was head of the law school’s appointments committee, had learned of Mr. Obama from Michael W. McConnell, a conservative constitutional scholar then at Chicago whom President Bush would later make a federal judge.He did not become a full-time professor, but a lecturer while being employed as an attorney at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development from 1996 - 2004.
Professor McConnell encountered Mr. Obama during the editing of an article he wrote for The Harvard Law Review, Professor Baird said recently. ‘He sent a note saying this person is really brilliant, we should have him on our radar screen,’ Professor Baird said. Professor Baird called Mr. Obama at Harvard and asked if he was interested in teaching.
‘I don’t remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect that, ‘Well, in fact, I want to write this book.’ What he really wanted was the Virginia Woolf equivalent of a clean, well lighted room.’ So Professor Baird got him one, a small office near the law library, along with a law school fellowship that Professor Baird hoped might later lead to his full-time teaching.”
posted by ericb at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh sorry. Oh wait maybe I was wrong. Oh crap, it was Seattle. Anywho you cant trust those crazy blogs. Can you? Freakin blogers.
posted by MapGuy at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2008
MapGuy, If Sarah Palin were the kind of person to support ACORN, a lot less people would have a problem with her. ACORN isn't a criminal organization, it's a community oriented advocacy group.
As for voter fraud, 15 individuals. Not the organization, 15 people in separate cases across the US who worked for or volunteered for ACORN, a group with over 350,000 members, have committed voter fraud. In multiple of those cases ACORN officials caught the individuals and turned them in.
So no I wouldn't hold support of ACORN against any candidate.
posted by MrBobaFett at 10:58 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
As for voter fraud, 15 individuals. Not the organization, 15 people in separate cases across the US who worked for or volunteered for ACORN, a group with over 350,000 members, have committed voter fraud. In multiple of those cases ACORN officials caught the individuals and turned them in.
So no I wouldn't hold support of ACORN against any candidate.
posted by MrBobaFett at 10:58 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
"Alaska and Russia are close to each other! You can see it from one of our islands!" Yep, she's a regular Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Never forget that when we Canadians are wading knee-deep into some American issue thread. We're experts, every one of us. Not because of the media saturation. We're all cuddled up against your border. (mmm, North Dakota. Warm.)
Except I think we have a baker's dozen split between North Bay, ON, Churchill, MB, and the Queen Charlottes.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Never forget that when we Canadians are wading knee-deep into some American issue thread. We're experts, every one of us. Not because of the media saturation. We're all cuddled up against your border. (mmm, North Dakota. Warm.)
Except I think we have a baker's dozen split between North Bay, ON, Churchill, MB, and the Queen Charlottes.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams
Did Palin consider "rape kits" a form of abortion?
posted by homunculus at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Did Palin consider "rape kits" a form of abortion?
posted by homunculus at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Go ahead look up the word executive. I guess you could count Obama's time at Harvard as executive experience, what was president of the student union or somethng?
President of the Harvard Law Review, actually. If you're going to mock his work at least get it right.
As to that hack piece of "journalism" you linked to, "community organizer" means bringing disenfranchised people into the democratic process. Something, IMHO, that is pretty fucking noble.
It says a lot about the people who mock him, and how afraid they are of poor people voting.
posted by kableh at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
President of the Harvard Law Review, actually. If you're going to mock his work at least get it right.
As to that hack piece of "journalism" you linked to, "community organizer" means bringing disenfranchised people into the democratic process. Something, IMHO, that is pretty fucking noble.
It says a lot about the people who mock him, and how afraid they are of poor people voting.
posted by kableh at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
I am sorta loosing the count of... wait did you just say it was just one guy?
posted by MapGuy at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2008
MapGuy, Google Republican Voter Fraud... you may be surprised to find out that there are Republicans who have committed voter fraud over the years.
posted by MrBobaFett at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MrBobaFett at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2008
I wish they'd frozen Kronkite's [sic] head and thawed it out every four years.
Walter Cronkite is alive and well and enjoying his summer on Martha's Vineyard.
posted by ericb at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2008
Walter Cronkite is alive and well and enjoying his summer on Martha's Vineyard.
posted by ericb at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2008
One picture of Sarah Palin's face undoes 10,000 words of expose on her goofy governorship. The woman looks fantastic.
Holy crap, what a country. Does it count for nothing at all what happens when her whiny voice begins to work? I mean, "hockey mom" can fuck right off when she's hectoring you to clean up your room, and that's exactly the note Palin hits.
posted by bonaldi at 11:12 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Holy crap, what a country. Does it count for nothing at all what happens when her whiny voice begins to work? I mean, "hockey mom" can fuck right off when she's hectoring you to clean up your room, and that's exactly the note Palin hits.
posted by bonaldi at 11:12 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I am not mocking him; I just can't be bothered to look it up because it is such a minor point and I know you will self righteously correct me, while missing the point of the argument entirely. Just because something is true does not make it necessarily relevant. But while we are on the subject does Obama have any executive experience? Does, McCain? Does Biden?
Are you suggesting that I am afraid of poor people voting? That is bullshit.
Here is a hint. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in the Constitution.
Here are a few rules I try to follow.
Never assume you have the high ground moral, intellectual or tactical.
Never assume you are being told the truth, by anyone.
Listen not to what you want to hear but to both what is being said and what is not being said.
Listen to all sides very carefully.
Assume everyone has an agenda.
Assume it is mostly self-serving.
Assume you may very well be completely wrong.
If you become emotive you have already lost the argument.
Look it up.
Good luck.
I don't always get it right. But then neither do you.
posted by MapGuy at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2008
Are you suggesting that I am afraid of poor people voting? That is bullshit.
Here is a hint. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in the Constitution.
Here are a few rules I try to follow.
Never assume you have the high ground moral, intellectual or tactical.
Never assume you are being told the truth, by anyone.
Listen not to what you want to hear but to both what is being said and what is not being said.
Listen to all sides very carefully.
Assume everyone has an agenda.
Assume it is mostly self-serving.
Assume you may very well be completely wrong.
If you become emotive you have already lost the argument.
Look it up.
Good luck.
I don't always get it right. But then neither do you.
posted by MapGuy at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2008
MapGuy, Google Republican Voter Fraud... you may be surprised to find out that there are Republicans who have committed voter fraud over the years.
There are basic differences, though.
Democrats commit voter fraud at the retail level, with gargantuan efforts involving production and transmission of fraudulent ballots and convincing inelligible voters on a one-by-one basis to attempt to register. These efforts are very labor intensive, and usually result in arrests and are largely ineffective.
Republicans commit voter fraud at the executive level (owning companies that develop voting machines that do not provide paper trails, purging voter registration rolls, and engaging in widespread intimidation in democratic areas). These are very effective, and hardly ever result in arrests of any kind.
posted by psmealey at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
There are basic differences, though.
Democrats commit voter fraud at the retail level, with gargantuan efforts involving production and transmission of fraudulent ballots and convincing inelligible voters on a one-by-one basis to attempt to register. These efforts are very labor intensive, and usually result in arrests and are largely ineffective.
Republicans commit voter fraud at the executive level (owning companies that develop voting machines that do not provide paper trails, purging voter registration rolls, and engaging in widespread intimidation in democratic areas). These are very effective, and hardly ever result in arrests of any kind.
posted by psmealey at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Since Walter Cronkite is still alive, we don't even need to thaw his head!
posted by lukemeister at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by lukemeister at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2008
You're cute when you froth, MapGuy.
posted by Eekacat at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Eekacat at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
We're still going to win this, right?
Jesus Christ, no, we're not.
This kind of panic is unbecoming and unhelpful.
Exactly.
AP: Number-crunching pollster sees decisive Obama win
Jesus Christ, no, we're not.
This kind of panic is unbecoming and unhelpful.
Exactly.
AP: Number-crunching pollster sees decisive Obama win
"A pollster whose mathematical model has correctly predicted every winner of the White House popular vote since 1988 is banking on a decisive victory for Democrat Barack Obama in November.posted by ericb at 11:18 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Emory University political scientist Alan Abramowitz said Wednesday that according to his 'time for change' model, Obama would secure 54.3 percent of the popular vote against 45.7 percent for Republican John McCain.
That margin would virtually guarantee a crushing victory for the Democrat in the state-by-state electoral college that actually selects the next president, Abramowitz said."
MrBobaFett - Nothing supprises me with respect to the ability of human beings to betray one another.
posted by MapGuy at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2008
Walter Cronkite is alive and well and enjoying his summer on Martha's Vineyard.
Sonnavabitch, Thou shalt not use teh Googles. I'd like to ammend my comment to read "I wish they'd frozen Kronkite's [sic] head back when he was relevant and thawed it out every four years."
MapGuy, don't listen to these people hassling you with "facts" and stuff, you know the right way to feel. Keep linking to those blogs, they're making for an interesting read.
Is it bad to be curious?
posted by jsavimbi at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2008
Sonnavabitch, Thou shalt not use teh Googles. I'd like to ammend my comment to read "I wish they'd frozen Kronkite's [sic] head back when he was relevant and thawed it out every four years."
MapGuy, don't listen to these people hassling you with "facts" and stuff, you know the right way to feel. Keep linking to those blogs, they're making for an interesting read.
Is it bad to be curious?
posted by jsavimbi at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2008
does Obama have any executive experience? Does, McCain? Does Biden?
Yes. For the past 18 months, Obama has run an incredibly smart, effective and successful Presidential campaign with a high degree of street level organization, and a fund-raising capability that's second to none. At the same time, he has been subjected to a level of media scrutiny and vetting that few among us could withstand, let alone come out the other end of it unscathed.
I might have agreed with the lack of experience thing in 2006, but he has proven that he is an effective leader, organizer and driver of an extensive, national organization, and has still got a lot of gas left in the tank. The guy can flat out manage and execute, not to mention communicate.
I put this executive experience up against anything you've got. Being mayor of a 9,000 person town and 650,000 person state (that's propped up by the largesse of the federal govt) doesn't even come close to Obama's recent experience.
posted by psmealey at 11:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Yes. For the past 18 months, Obama has run an incredibly smart, effective and successful Presidential campaign with a high degree of street level organization, and a fund-raising capability that's second to none. At the same time, he has been subjected to a level of media scrutiny and vetting that few among us could withstand, let alone come out the other end of it unscathed.
I might have agreed with the lack of experience thing in 2006, but he has proven that he is an effective leader, organizer and driver of an extensive, national organization, and has still got a lot of gas left in the tank. The guy can flat out manage and execute, not to mention communicate.
I put this executive experience up against anything you've got. Being mayor of a 9,000 person town and 650,000 person state (that's propped up by the largesse of the federal govt) doesn't even come close to Obama's recent experience.
posted by psmealey at 11:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Eekacat Dude I am siting here laughing. I enjoy the debate. I can not be bothered to get upset about this.
posted by MapGuy at 11:21 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:21 AM on September 14, 2008
Honestly, the situation reminds me of nothing more than bullying on an elementary school playground...
I think you are right. Strategists like Karl Rove (and Lee Atwater et al before him) understand that appealing to base emotions and instincts help energize their base. I call it "Playgound Politics." It evolves over time to "High School Student Center Politics" and sticks with many people.
Wht the Democrats could use is a pissed-off Ralphie going all apeshit on Scott Farkus...with the bully bloodied and sniffling as he retreats from the crowd.
posted by ericb at 11:25 AM on September 14, 2008
I think you are right. Strategists like Karl Rove (and Lee Atwater et al before him) understand that appealing to base emotions and instincts help energize their base. I call it "Playgound Politics." It evolves over time to "High School Student Center Politics" and sticks with many people.
Wht the Democrats could use is a pissed-off Ralphie going all apeshit on Scott Farkus...with the bully bloodied and sniffling as he retreats from the crowd.
posted by ericb at 11:25 AM on September 14, 2008
psmealey and How about McCain? Jesus, you must know by now I don't start something I can't finish.
posted by MapGuy at 11:26 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:26 AM on September 14, 2008
Man, why are they always "laughing"? Can't they just be sitting podding away at the keyboard, bored like the rest of us? No, it has to be laughter that leads to their screeds.
posted by bonaldi at 11:26 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
posted by bonaldi at 11:26 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
McCain bankrupted his own organization and had to go through three reorgs before the Bushites bailed him out. Not to say he hasn't been an effective candidate, but he almost blew his chances with his inept management before finally having the wherewithal to hand the keys over to the pros.
posted by psmealey at 11:28 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by psmealey at 11:28 AM on September 14, 2008
bonaldi I wish I could do that Dr. Evil laugh, that would be cool.
posted by MapGuy at 11:31 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:31 AM on September 14, 2008
And his military experience would be....?
Crashing five jets with the last earning him a place at the Hanoi Hilton.
posted by ericb at 11:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Crashing five jets with the last earning him a place at the Hanoi Hilton.
posted by ericb at 11:32 AM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
The democrats need to get over their smugness - and quick - if they want to win this election. What everything boils down to is this: Democrats come across as "knowing what's best for you" and Republicans come across as "holier than thou".
For better or worse the last 30 years has proven America will take the "holier than thou" candidate over the "we know what's best for you" candidate. Do you hear me, Al Gore and John Kerry? This is why you lost, and if Obama isn't careful, he will too.
Quoted for truth.
Ah yes, noted racist Michelle Malkin, obviously her characterization of ACORN is spot on, after all someone with the penetrating insight to say, in the 21st century, that Japanese-American internment during WWII a great idea is obviously someone we should take seriously.
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 14, 2008
For better or worse the last 30 years has proven America will take the "holier than thou" candidate over the "we know what's best for you" candidate. Do you hear me, Al Gore and John Kerry? This is why you lost, and if Obama isn't careful, he will too.
Quoted for truth.
Ah yes, noted racist Michelle Malkin, obviously her characterization of ACORN is spot on, after all someone with the penetrating insight to say, in the 21st century, that Japanese-American internment during WWII a great idea is obviously someone we should take seriously.
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 14, 2008
And his military experience would be....?
Undistinguished. Other than his famously being imprisoned by the Vietcong for almost six years, the rest of his military career was relatively undistinguished... about the same as Don Rumsfeld. Never managed any critical assets or squadrons and topped out at as Captain (not bad for some, but hardly the thing of legend).
posted by psmealey at 11:34 AM on September 14, 2008
Undistinguished. Other than his famously being imprisoned by the Vietcong for almost six years, the rest of his military career was relatively undistinguished... about the same as Don Rumsfeld. Never managed any critical assets or squadrons and topped out at as Captain (not bad for some, but hardly the thing of legend).
posted by psmealey at 11:34 AM on September 14, 2008
And his military experience would be....?
And yours is? I'm proud of mine, but in no way does it qualify me for anything other than a cop, fireman or hobo eradication specialist. That's grasping at straws, as Saint Ronnie, Little Geroge and Uncle Dick already proved.
So if you want to debate the military qualifications of a man who managed to use his family's influence to further his career up to the point where he didn't get a star and was advised to retire, by all means, please do.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:36 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
And yours is? I'm proud of mine, but in no way does it qualify me for anything other than a cop, fireman or hobo eradication specialist. That's grasping at straws, as Saint Ronnie, Little Geroge and Uncle Dick already proved.
So if you want to debate the military qualifications of a man who managed to use his family's influence to further his career up to the point where he didn't get a star and was advised to retire, by all means, please do.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:36 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Go look up VA 174. Here is a hint; it was at the time the largest squadron in the Navy.
posted by MapGuy at 11:38 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:38 AM on September 14, 2008
Thank god the media is finally waking up and exposing the lies we've been reading about for weeks.
posted by agregoli at 11:38 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by agregoli at 11:38 AM on September 14, 2008
Guys, there's a lot of good stuff in this thread. Don't let it turn to shit.
posted by neroli at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by neroli at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2008
...hobo eradication specialist..
I think this thread could use one of those.
I keed. I keed.
posted by ericb at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2008
I think this thread could use one of those.
I keed. I keed.
posted by ericb at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2008
An organization Obama was involved with at one time was involved in some sort of voter fraud.
An organization that John McCain is still actively involved in is directly responsible for war crimes, geneva convention violations, false cassus belli, invasion of a sovereign nation under false pretenses, destruction of New Orleans, cronyism, corrruption, and general skullduggery.
Sorta puts the whole thing into perspective, huh..
Lipstick on a pig my ass.
posted by Lord_Pall at 11:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
An organization that John McCain is still actively involved in is directly responsible for war crimes, geneva convention violations, false cassus belli, invasion of a sovereign nation under false pretenses, destruction of New Orleans, cronyism, corrruption, and general skullduggery.
Sorta puts the whole thing into perspective, huh..
Lipstick on a pig my ass.
posted by Lord_Pall at 11:40 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
konolia: Being non-white does not give anyone a pass on racism any more than being female gives anyone a pass on sexism. I am ashamed to have Malkin as a member of my demographic.
posted by casarkos at 11:44 AM on September 14, 2008 [17 favorites]
posted by casarkos at 11:44 AM on September 14, 2008 [17 favorites]
Lord_Pall Are you referring to the US Senate? If that is the case I think you may have a problem.
posted by MapGuy at 11:45 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:45 AM on September 14, 2008
Are you suggesting that I am afraid of poor people voting?
Yes. Why else would you slander a group like ACORN, who registers poor people to vote, based on bullshit posted on the craziest of crazy wingnut blogs?
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
Michelle Malkin is a racist, that's correct. She isn't Japanese, so I fail to see how being Asian grants her a pass on supporting Japanese internment, and she's also totally racist against Arabs and Muslims in general (which is not technically a race, but you get the idea)
posted by delmoi at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
Yes. Why else would you slander a group like ACORN, who registers poor people to vote, based on bullshit posted on the craziest of crazy wingnut blogs?
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
Michelle Malkin is a racist, that's correct. She isn't Japanese, so I fail to see how being Asian grants her a pass on supporting Japanese internment, and she's also totally racist against Arabs and Muslims in general (which is not technically a race, but you get the idea)
posted by delmoi at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
Did it ever occur to you that I am trying to help you clarify your argument. No, didn't think so.
All you're doing is spouting nonsequiters and insults. I recommend you be ignored for the rest of the thread.
I don't think he's "trolling" specifically, rather he simply lacks the intellectual heft for a real discussion.
posted by delmoi at 11:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
All you're doing is spouting nonsequiters and insults. I recommend you be ignored for the rest of the thread.
I don't think he's "trolling" specifically, rather he simply lacks the intellectual heft for a real discussion.
posted by delmoi at 11:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
MapGuy somehow reminds me of another far-right-winger I occasionally debate with. Trollish in general, but claims to be "fair and balanced" and not trusting of anyone, including the GOP. Delights in getting EV1L LIBRULS all frothy, and uses weak rejoinders to cover his tracks. Becomes sullen and snarky when cornered on a point or is clearly losing a debate. Ignores counterpoints to his arguments when those counterpoints are unassailable. All-in-all, someone with "values."
But I'm just a barely-right-of-centre Canuckistani who thinks Stephen Harper's government needs a steel-toed kick in the arse, so what do I know?
posted by illiad at 11:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
But I'm just a barely-right-of-centre Canuckistani who thinks Stephen Harper's government needs a steel-toed kick in the arse, so what do I know?
posted by illiad at 11:52 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, you might not like her opinion on internment, granted, but is it on racist grounds or something else?
(Although I have no trouble at all believing that in the 40s there WAS racism involved in the idea of internment camps-after all, I don't remember reading about German internment camps. )
posted by konolia at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
(Although I have no trouble at all believing that in the 40s there WAS racism involved in the idea of internment camps-after all, I don't remember reading about German internment camps. )
posted by konolia at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Whoops~!
posted by furtive at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by furtive at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Do you mean to say that the WSJ is slandering ACORN. that newspapers in Michigan, Misouri and Seattle are the craziest of crazy wingnut blogs? Because that is what I linked to. If I show you something that is widely reported in the Media as being true why is that slander? I believe I was asking a legitimate question, that I take you do not wish to answer. That's cool, I will go watch NASCAR and football. And no I don't hate poor people.
posted by MapGuy at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008
posted by MapGuy at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008
Michelle Malkin happens to be is Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
It's not by accident, her parents are Filipino and her daddy inseminated her mommy's vagina and produced an offspring. Her race wasn't assigned to her via lotto prior to being taken away by the stork to deliver to a [married by the church] couple at random. Oh, and if you think that people of Asian extraction can't be racist, then please explain to me why, as a gringo, I always get a fork and a glass of water at dim sum and my Asian tablemates do not? Huh?
Dim sum is a way of eating Chinese food with tea. It's not to be confused with tapas. Those are Spanish. Just a helpful FYI
And while you're at Google "Malkin racist" and "navy attack squadron VA". One will produce numerous instances of her proxy gutter talk, the other will return information regarding where second-rate naval aviators reside, along with their fourth-rate brethren who finagled a job in a fixed-wing, non-support squadron with a little help from Daddy's friends.
"But he was a POW." So was Vonnegut. Dammit Konolia, educate yourself. Please.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's not by accident, her parents are Filipino and her daddy inseminated her mommy's vagina and produced an offspring. Her race wasn't assigned to her via lotto prior to being taken away by the stork to deliver to a [married by the church] couple at random. Oh, and if you think that people of Asian extraction can't be racist, then please explain to me why, as a gringo, I always get a fork and a glass of water at dim sum and my Asian tablemates do not? Huh?
Dim sum is a way of eating Chinese food with tea. It's not to be confused with tapas. Those are Spanish. Just a helpful FYI
And while you're at Google "Malkin racist" and "navy attack squadron VA". One will produce numerous instances of her proxy gutter talk, the other will return information regarding where second-rate naval aviators reside, along with their fourth-rate brethren who finagled a job in a fixed-wing, non-support squadron with a little help from Daddy's friends.
"But he was a POW." So was Vonnegut. Dammit Konolia, educate yourself. Please.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't keep up with Naval aviation (although I did live in Pensacola quite awhile. Got to watch the Blue Angels practice whilst sunning myself on the beach. It was nice.)
(I'm not following what you guys are discussing re McCain as I already know flying and leadership are two different things. I have a son in the Air Force.)
posted by konolia at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2008
(I'm not following what you guys are discussing re McCain as I already know flying and leadership are two different things. I have a son in the Air Force.)
posted by konolia at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, you might not like her opinion on internment, granted, but is it on racist grounds or something else?
I don't think you can say "lets round up every single Jap/Arab/Jew and put them in prison for an indefinite length of time, without a trial" and have it not be racist. If you know of a way to have internment camps filled with people who are there for no reason but for their race, please let me know. I look forward to your illuminating response.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
I don't think you can say "lets round up every single Jap/Arab/Jew and put them in prison for an indefinite length of time, without a trial" and have it not be racist. If you know of a way to have internment camps filled with people who are there for no reason but for their race, please let me know. I look forward to your illuminating response.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
My friends --in all seriousness, for five years I starved in a box in the Hanoi Hilton, a prisoner of the Vietnamese Communists.
posted by OldReliable at 12:02 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by OldReliable at 12:02 PM on September 14, 2008
Garrison Keillor writes on "straight-talk" hypocrisy, distraction from bigger issues, and the implied insult to those of us who "didn't just fall off the coal truck."
here's hoping his message will reach those who need it most.
posted by skyper at 12:04 PM on September 14, 2008
here's hoping his message will reach those who need it most.
posted by skyper at 12:04 PM on September 14, 2008
OldReliable If this is true. Then please speak. Your voice deserves to be heard.
posted by MapGuy at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by MapGuy at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
Doesn't mean she's not racist. Including against Asian Americans.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2008
Doesn't mean she's not racist. Including against Asian Americans.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2008
What basis do you claim to call me either a sociopath or a dick?
Explained here.
Did it ever occur to you that I am trying to help you clarify your argument. No, didn't think so.
Only insofar as your punching me in the stomach is helping me forget my headache.
I'm off to watch NASCAR and Football as well, but I'll be killing babies and eating tempeh burgers and drinking a mochaccino as I do it.
posted by psmealey at 12:06 PM on September 14, 2008
Explained here.
Did it ever occur to you that I am trying to help you clarify your argument. No, didn't think so.
Only insofar as your punching me in the stomach is helping me forget my headache.
I'm off to watch NASCAR and Football as well, but I'll be killing babies and eating tempeh burgers and drinking a mochaccino as I do it.
posted by psmealey at 12:06 PM on September 14, 2008
That is so cool how do you get it to blink?
Gosh, you're the ITT Tech graduate, why don't you tell me? As a matter of fact, why not go back down into your basement, figure out how to make two cellphones boil an egg - an assertion you are still unable to defend, remember - and then come join the discussion here when you're done?
Why would anyone genuinely listen to what you have to say when you happen to be wrong about everything else you've posted?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:06 PM on September 14, 2008
Gosh, you're the ITT Tech graduate, why don't you tell me? As a matter of fact, why not go back down into your basement, figure out how to make two cellphones boil an egg - an assertion you are still unable to defend, remember - and then come join the discussion here when you're done?
Why would anyone genuinely listen to what you have to say when you happen to be wrong about everything else you've posted?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:06 PM on September 14, 2008
And by the way, I'm not saying Malkin is Racist against Japanese people in general, Rather she's racist against Arabs and other "brown" people from Muslim countries. The reason she praised internment in WWII was because she thought it was a good model for dealing with Arabs/muslims in the US during the "war on terror."
One of the U.S. attorneys prosecuting ACORN was none other then Bradley Schlozman, a notorious rightwing hack and expert vote suppressor. here he is testifying in congress about those 'prosecutions'
posted by delmoi at 12:09 PM on September 14, 2008
One of the U.S. attorneys prosecuting ACORN was none other then Bradley Schlozman, a notorious rightwing hack and expert vote suppressor. here he is testifying in congress about those 'prosecutions'
posted by delmoi at 12:09 PM on September 14, 2008
What Would Todd Do?
"In voting to issue a subpoena to Todd Palin in an investigation of the firing of the Alaska public safety commissioner, state lawmakers on Friday signaled that Mr. Palin, the husband of Gov. Sarah Palin, might have played a central role in one of the most contentious episodes of her governorship.posted by ericb at 12:10 PM on September 14, 2008
While that suggestion goes beyond the image presented of Mr. Palin during the Republican convention as a blue-collar family man and sportsman, it echoes a widely held understanding among lawmakers, state employees and lobbyists about Mr. Palin’s heavy engagement in state government.
In the small circle of advisers close to the governor, these people say, Mr. Palin is among the closest, and he plays an unpaid but central role in many aspects of the administration of Ms. Palin, the Republican nominee for vice president.
Mr. Palin’s involvement in the governor’s office has prompted an irreverent quip by some capital staff members when decisions are to be made that might affect the governor: 'What would Todd do?'
Mr. Palin has encouraged lawmakers to support his wife’s agenda, helped her review budget items and polish speeches, surprised some lawmakers by sitting in on meetings and received copies of top administration staff e-mail messages."
Speaking of Racism-- how about John "I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live" McCain's racism?
John McCain repeatedly voted against creating a national holiday commemorating Martin Luther King, Jr. Now, of course, Mr. "Straight Talk" has flip-flopped and is in favor of this holiday.
Looks like the people of Memphis remember his original position, though.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:13 PM on September 14, 2008
John McCain repeatedly voted against creating a national holiday commemorating Martin Luther King, Jr. Now, of course, Mr. "Straight Talk" has flip-flopped and is in favor of this holiday.
Looks like the people of Memphis remember his original position, though.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:13 PM on September 14, 2008
Confirmation bias is a hard thing to point out, because everybody wants to believe that they're making solid well thought out unbiased decisions. But There's a healthy amout of confirmation bias that is at the heart of this election, and it's results are quite interesting.
I'm not talking about regular "I support candidate A, so i will view everything through that lens" bias. That's normal and to be expected. But what this election has that is unprecedented is an overriding bias that both sides share. The preconception the Barack Obama can't win.
The common wisdom among all Americans before this election was that while having a Black President was something that we as a country would see as a good thing given our history, it wasn't something that would happen in our lifetime.
The biggest problem with this bias is that it is NOT racist. You'll notice that whenever Obama's rae is brought up in this election, it;'s through the prism of "racist voters who won't vote for him because of his skin color" this is not where the color of his skin actually hurts him. We already have an established "overcoming racism" narrative that we can all tap into.
What we don't have is a Black Man as president narrative we can tap into. As a result even people who are for Obama 100% are still biased against him in this subtle, but overwhelming way. Even Obama's successes look like failures when deep down you think he can't win. Even if you really really WANT him to win. Remember how Hillary Clinton kept insisting that Obama couldn't beat McCain, and everyone ignored the fact that she couldn't beat Obama?
There's that old saying, "When the map doesn't match the ground, it's the map that's wrong"
So much has been completely counterintuitive about this election, but everyone insists on filtering it through previous models, completely ignoring every piece of evidence that says things are different this time. Remember how everyone kept asking every primary why he couldn't "put Hillary away", and in hindsight we can clearly see he wrapped things up on Super Tuesday?
There's this saying among a certain segment of Black America that is pretty much accepted as gospel truth, and this election seems to be proving it.
"You have to be twice as good to be considered equal."
This idea could be interpreted as grievance, but it really isn't. The base idea is that you actually can actually achieve equality. It doesnt matter if the world ignores how far over the bar you have to jump, a long as you clear the bar.
This election is still a tossup, but so far Obama has cleared every bar in unprecedented fashion. He's working harder than anyone ever has, and everyone is mad because he's making it look easy.Every time he clears a bar, everyone assumes that bar wasn't important, because hey, he can't really win, can he?
Two things to consider.
1) Following the announcement of Palin as VP, Obama collected $10 million in one day. The first 24 hours. This was before any of the rumors, allegations, vetting concern, polls or anything. Everyone looked at that banner day through the lens of Palin reaction, when in reality he was going to get that money anyway. As long as everyone continues to underestimate the machine, nobody's going to figure out a way to beat the machine.
2) Go back to Electoral-vote.com. Their numbers are causing all sorts of hand-winging when viewed as proof that Obama is losing. But look again at McCain's numbers as compared to Bush's numbers in 2004. He may be ahead of Obama in some key states, but he's behind Bush by more than a few points in most of those states. And these are pre-debate convention bounce numbers. Meanwhile Obama is close to or excceding Kerry's numbers.
Maybe it shouldn't be as close as it is at this point. But as this race goes into it's last laps, it may be a tie, but one guy is driving a rickety old bus as fast as it can possibly go, and the other guy is in a Ferrari and is just kind of cruising along.
It's still anybody's race, but is anyone really looking at the Straight Talk Express right now and saying "wow, look at that thing go!"
posted by billyfleetwood at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [14 favorites]
I'm not talking about regular "I support candidate A, so i will view everything through that lens" bias. That's normal and to be expected. But what this election has that is unprecedented is an overriding bias that both sides share. The preconception the Barack Obama can't win.
The common wisdom among all Americans before this election was that while having a Black President was something that we as a country would see as a good thing given our history, it wasn't something that would happen in our lifetime.
The biggest problem with this bias is that it is NOT racist. You'll notice that whenever Obama's rae is brought up in this election, it;'s through the prism of "racist voters who won't vote for him because of his skin color" this is not where the color of his skin actually hurts him. We already have an established "overcoming racism" narrative that we can all tap into.
What we don't have is a Black Man as president narrative we can tap into. As a result even people who are for Obama 100% are still biased against him in this subtle, but overwhelming way. Even Obama's successes look like failures when deep down you think he can't win. Even if you really really WANT him to win. Remember how Hillary Clinton kept insisting that Obama couldn't beat McCain, and everyone ignored the fact that she couldn't beat Obama?
There's that old saying, "When the map doesn't match the ground, it's the map that's wrong"
So much has been completely counterintuitive about this election, but everyone insists on filtering it through previous models, completely ignoring every piece of evidence that says things are different this time. Remember how everyone kept asking every primary why he couldn't "put Hillary away", and in hindsight we can clearly see he wrapped things up on Super Tuesday?
There's this saying among a certain segment of Black America that is pretty much accepted as gospel truth, and this election seems to be proving it.
"You have to be twice as good to be considered equal."
This idea could be interpreted as grievance, but it really isn't. The base idea is that you actually can actually achieve equality. It doesnt matter if the world ignores how far over the bar you have to jump, a long as you clear the bar.
This election is still a tossup, but so far Obama has cleared every bar in unprecedented fashion. He's working harder than anyone ever has, and everyone is mad because he's making it look easy.Every time he clears a bar, everyone assumes that bar wasn't important, because hey, he can't really win, can he?
Two things to consider.
1) Following the announcement of Palin as VP, Obama collected $10 million in one day. The first 24 hours. This was before any of the rumors, allegations, vetting concern, polls or anything. Everyone looked at that banner day through the lens of Palin reaction, when in reality he was going to get that money anyway. As long as everyone continues to underestimate the machine, nobody's going to figure out a way to beat the machine.
2) Go back to Electoral-vote.com. Their numbers are causing all sorts of hand-winging when viewed as proof that Obama is losing. But look again at McCain's numbers as compared to Bush's numbers in 2004. He may be ahead of Obama in some key states, but he's behind Bush by more than a few points in most of those states. And these are pre-debate convention bounce numbers. Meanwhile Obama is close to or excceding Kerry's numbers.
Maybe it shouldn't be as close as it is at this point. But as this race goes into it's last laps, it may be a tie, but one guy is driving a rickety old bus as fast as it can possibly go, and the other guy is in a Ferrari and is just kind of cruising along.
It's still anybody's race, but is anyone really looking at the Straight Talk Express right now and saying "wow, look at that thing go!"
posted by billyfleetwood at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [14 favorites]
McCain: Racist, Bigot & Homophobe
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:20 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:20 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Doctors call on McCain to release complete medical records (video).
The report says that 4 bouts of melanoma were among the various types of skin cancer McCain has experienced. His most recent Stage 2 melanoma occurred in 2002. By the charts, there is a 66% chance of recurrence within 10 years, and 6 years have already lapsed. MDs say that treatment for a recurrence would be so toxic and so difficult, he would be incapacitated from fulfilling his responsibilities.
And his backup is Palin & her sidekick, First Dude? Horribile dictu! Mere contemplation is the stuff of nightmares.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
The report says that 4 bouts of melanoma were among the various types of skin cancer McCain has experienced. His most recent Stage 2 melanoma occurred in 2002. By the charts, there is a 66% chance of recurrence within 10 years, and 6 years have already lapsed. MDs say that treatment for a recurrence would be so toxic and so difficult, he would be incapacitated from fulfilling his responsibilities.
And his backup is Palin & her sidekick, First Dude? Horribile dictu! Mere contemplation is the stuff of nightmares.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
What would Todd do?
I cannot speak intelligently on the decision making habits of one Todd Pallin, part-time oil worker cum snowmobile racer and all around shunner of contraceptives, but I will say what nimrod like himself wouldn't do: let his little lady run around making decisions without consulting him first.
Maybe my services as a hobo eradication specialist may not be needed in this thread, but we could sure make good use of a trailer park mediator: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
kolonia, I'm amazed that all these years of military living haven't rubbed off on you enough to tell the difference between one and the other. Did you have no other interests in the world around you other than sitting on the beach? That's sad, it really is. I'm not knocking your beliefs, just your apparent ignorance as a human being. It's a pet peeve of mine to see people on this Earth, for the short time they're here, act completely unaware of their surroundings. Please tell me that at least you're better travelled than Todd's missus.
posted by jsavimbi at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008
I cannot speak intelligently on the decision making habits of one Todd Pallin, part-time oil worker cum snowmobile racer and all around shunner of contraceptives, but I will say what nimrod like himself wouldn't do: let his little lady run around making decisions without consulting him first.
Maybe my services as a hobo eradication specialist may not be needed in this thread, but we could sure make good use of a trailer park mediator: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
kolonia, I'm amazed that all these years of military living haven't rubbed off on you enough to tell the difference between one and the other. Did you have no other interests in the world around you other than sitting on the beach? That's sad, it really is. I'm not knocking your beliefs, just your apparent ignorance as a human being. It's a pet peeve of mine to see people on this Earth, for the short time they're here, act completely unaware of their surroundings. Please tell me that at least you're better travelled than Todd's missus.
posted by jsavimbi at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008
I would love for a reporter to ask Sarah Palin how she feels about John McCain's Rape Joke.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Got to watch the Blue Angels practice whilst sunning myself on the beach. It was nice.
Given your incuriosity about the Iraq war, I wonder on which beach you've been sunning yourself the past few years.
posted by troybob at 12:29 PM on September 14, 2008
Given your incuriosity about the Iraq war, I wonder on which beach you've been sunning yourself the past few years.
posted by troybob at 12:29 PM on September 14, 2008
The bad news: Given the opposing candidate, the drawn out war, and the collapsing economy, Obama should be ahead by 15%.
Actually, that's not true. According to this article by the economist Douglas Hibbs, who is known for his "bread and peace" model of presidential election forecasting, the level of income growth in the U.S. and the amount of Iraq War casualties leads to a prediction of Obama winning narrowly by a 51.8% share of the two-party vote, while the Republicans gets 48.2%. I think most of the other forecasting models also have Obama winning but by a small margin.
posted by jonp72 at 12:32 PM on September 14, 2008
Actually, that's not true. According to this article by the economist Douglas Hibbs, who is known for his "bread and peace" model of presidential election forecasting, the level of income growth in the U.S. and the amount of Iraq War casualties leads to a prediction of Obama winning narrowly by a 51.8% share of the two-party vote, while the Republicans gets 48.2%. I think most of the other forecasting models also have Obama winning but by a small margin.
posted by jonp72 at 12:32 PM on September 14, 2008
It's a pet peeve of mine to see people on this Earth, for the short time they're here, act completely unaware of their surroundings.
My SO, who is from the U.S., is dismayed by the lack of worldliness found in much of her homeland. I don't have the data in front of me, but an astonishingly low number of Americans have ever had a passport and far fewer keep their passports current. While working a bit north of Seattle, her co-workers were amazed at how often she crossed north to Vancouver. The cultural similarities between Seattle-ites and Vancouver-ites are legion, but crossing the 49th into Canada was viewed with as much awe as travelling to, say, Mongolia. They're both foreign countries, after all...
The usual line she'd hear as to why being aware of one's surroundings and the "World Outside" wasn't necessary was: "We can travel across the U.S. -- what more do we need?"
posted by illiad at 12:38 PM on September 14, 2008
My SO, who is from the U.S., is dismayed by the lack of worldliness found in much of her homeland. I don't have the data in front of me, but an astonishingly low number of Americans have ever had a passport and far fewer keep their passports current. While working a bit north of Seattle, her co-workers were amazed at how often she crossed north to Vancouver. The cultural similarities between Seattle-ites and Vancouver-ites are legion, but crossing the 49th into Canada was viewed with as much awe as travelling to, say, Mongolia. They're both foreign countries, after all...
The usual line she'd hear as to why being aware of one's surroundings and the "World Outside" wasn't necessary was: "We can travel across the U.S. -- what more do we need?"
posted by illiad at 12:38 PM on September 14, 2008
Mod note: few comments removed - take dick name calling IMMEDIATELY to metatalk or email, thakn you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:39 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:39 PM on September 14, 2008
Michelle Malkin is a racist, that's correct. She isn't Japanese, so I fail to see how being Asian grants her a pass on supporting Japanese internment, and she's also totally racist against Arabs and Muslims in general (which is not technically a race, but you get the idea).
The Japanese occupation of the Philippines during World War II makes it perfectly plausible that a Filipina-American woman like Michelle Malkin might have an ax to grind about the internment of Japanese-Americans. Asians are just as capable of hating on other Asians as the non-Asians are.
posted by jonp72 at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2008
The Japanese occupation of the Philippines during World War II makes it perfectly plausible that a Filipina-American woman like Michelle Malkin might have an ax to grind about the internment of Japanese-Americans. Asians are just as capable of hating on other Asians as the non-Asians are.
posted by jonp72 at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2008
Keep living in the bubble people. I mean if you don't like McCain's campaign tactics that's fine -- but the idea that the media hasn't been hard enough on her or that embarassing NYT story which is a bunch of overheated language attached to mighty thin gruel amounts to a "thorough vetting" is kind of pathetic. It's an embarrassment for the the Times which isn't a sleeping giant so much as a giant on life support, because of obviously biased crap like this. NEWSFLASH: She made some enemies in local politics -- B.F.D. Of course she's a Governor now with an 80+ percent approval rating but OMG STOP THE PRESSES we found some people in Alaska that don't like her!
Instead, it will likely stoke the narrative that the media is cheerleading for Obama -- something surveys show that most people now believe. You may despise McCain-Palin but you have to admit that a major reason why Obama is now slipping is because the media fell down on the job and prematurely and unfairly rushed to bury her. And now, because the NYT initially rushed to print page one stories about her that they had to retract (her alleged membership in the Alaska Independence Party) and they began demanding paternity tests on the basis of a vicious and anonymous Kos diary -- Palin is largely bulletproof to media attacks.
In the meantime everyone should read this and chill the hell out.
posted by Heminator at 12:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Instead, it will likely stoke the narrative that the media is cheerleading for Obama -- something surveys show that most people now believe. You may despise McCain-Palin but you have to admit that a major reason why Obama is now slipping is because the media fell down on the job and prematurely and unfairly rushed to bury her. And now, because the NYT initially rushed to print page one stories about her that they had to retract (her alleged membership in the Alaska Independence Party) and they began demanding paternity tests on the basis of a vicious and anonymous Kos diary -- Palin is largely bulletproof to media attacks.
In the meantime everyone should read this and chill the hell out.
posted by Heminator at 12:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I should clarify -- it wasn't the NYT but another media outlet that irresponsibly demanded a paternity test...
posted by Heminator at 12:50 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Heminator at 12:50 PM on September 14, 2008
You may despise McCain-Palin but you have to admit that a major reason why Obama is now slipping is because the media fell down on the job and prematurely and unfairly rushed to bury her
Dude, they haven't even talked to her yet.
posted by The Straightener at 12:52 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Dude, they haven't even talked to her yet.
posted by The Straightener at 12:52 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
As for voter fraud, 15 individuals. Not the organization, 15 people in separate cases across the US who worked for or volunteered for ACORN, a group with over 350,000 members, have committed voter fraud. In multiple of those cases ACORN officials caught the individuals and turned them in.
Yeah, this is pretty much B.S. Organizations like ACORN cannot be held responsible if one of their canvassers tries to get extra money by trying to register "Mickey Mouse" and other nonexistent voters. ACORN's the only victim here. They get swindled out of money by canvassers registering phony voters. It doesn't have an effect on the election, because "Mickey Mouse" is not going to suddenly materialize and show up at the polls. It's just Republicans suppressing the vote with phony "voter fraud" charges to cast doubt on Democratic electoral victories.
Seriously, we need to change the whole framing of the voter fraud issue, so that Republican efforts at suppressing voter turnout are understood as the real voter fraud.
posted by jonp72 at 12:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this is pretty much B.S. Organizations like ACORN cannot be held responsible if one of their canvassers tries to get extra money by trying to register "Mickey Mouse" and other nonexistent voters. ACORN's the only victim here. They get swindled out of money by canvassers registering phony voters. It doesn't have an effect on the election, because "Mickey Mouse" is not going to suddenly materialize and show up at the polls. It's just Republicans suppressing the vote with phony "voter fraud" charges to cast doubt on Democratic electoral victories.
Seriously, we need to change the whole framing of the voter fraud issue, so that Republican efforts at suppressing voter turnout are understood as the real voter fraud.
posted by jonp72 at 12:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Got to watch the Blue Angels practice whilst sunning myself on the beach. It was nice.
Holy cats! You've SEEN the jets? By Palin logic, you're qualified to run either the air force or the NTSB. Take your pick!
posted by John of Michigan at 12:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [20 favorites]
Holy cats! You've SEEN the jets? By Palin logic, you're qualified to run either the air force or the NTSB. Take your pick!
posted by John of Michigan at 12:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [20 favorites]
I should clarify -- it wasn't the NYT but another media outlet that irresponsibly demanded a paternity test...
Actually, it was an unspecified "members of the A-list media" that asked if the campaign had plans for her to undergo tests...according to Steve Schmidt.
posted by neroli at 12:58 PM on September 14, 2008
Actually, it was an unspecified "members of the A-list media" that asked if the campaign had plans for her to undergo tests...according to Steve Schmidt.
posted by neroli at 12:58 PM on September 14, 2008
My SO, who is from the U.S., is dismayed by the lack of worldliness found in much of her homeland.
From a social standpoint, yes, I'm dismayed that a lot of my fellow Americans are donkeys when it comes to the world outside of their living rooms, let alone outside our borders. But not from a financial standpoint. I clean up pretty well in comparisson to my peers, so I'm not trying to educate them that much. After all, being the lone gringo in an office where all of the talent is imported has its benefit$.
It's hard to knock what we have in the US. Foreigners come here and are culture shocked into submission with our style of living, everthing from the availability of consumer goods to the level of customer service and the facilities that we build for ourselves. Not to mention that our McMansions, empty or not, far outclass any available new construction anywhere in the world. Hands down. It's not a bad place to live and the opportunities are endless for anyone with a little hussle, just ask Todd's missus.
That being said, there are plenty of people in other countries who never leave their homeland, let alone go far beyond their local area unless pressed into it. Even though it's easy to encounter nouveau riche tourists on a junket in most major American cities, travelling to remote areas for recreation is still an activity of the elites, or the soon to be, and I don't hold it against anyone for not venturing far beyond the beach at Punta Cana.
But to list a refueling stop in Shannon?, Ireland as foreign affairs experience betrays a complete and utter lack of curved Earth understanding. As in being laughed at and annointed a numbskull.
posted by jsavimbi at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2008
From a social standpoint, yes, I'm dismayed that a lot of my fellow Americans are donkeys when it comes to the world outside of their living rooms, let alone outside our borders. But not from a financial standpoint. I clean up pretty well in comparisson to my peers, so I'm not trying to educate them that much. After all, being the lone gringo in an office where all of the talent is imported has its benefit$.
It's hard to knock what we have in the US. Foreigners come here and are culture shocked into submission with our style of living, everthing from the availability of consumer goods to the level of customer service and the facilities that we build for ourselves. Not to mention that our McMansions, empty or not, far outclass any available new construction anywhere in the world. Hands down. It's not a bad place to live and the opportunities are endless for anyone with a little hussle, just ask Todd's missus.
That being said, there are plenty of people in other countries who never leave their homeland, let alone go far beyond their local area unless pressed into it. Even though it's easy to encounter nouveau riche tourists on a junket in most major American cities, travelling to remote areas for recreation is still an activity of the elites, or the soon to be, and I don't hold it against anyone for not venturing far beyond the beach at Punta Cana.
But to list a refueling stop in Shannon?, Ireland as foreign affairs experience betrays a complete and utter lack of curved Earth understanding. As in being laughed at and annointed a numbskull.
posted by jsavimbi at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2008
The woman looks fantastic. Her face is the perfectly proportioned expression of the "golden mean." The eyes, the cheekbones, the mouth, the neck have a powerful appeal that make objective or hostile reaction very difficult....
??
She has "crazy eyes". I see a complete wackjob/twit when I look at that face.
posted by Zambrano at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2008
??
She has "crazy eyes". I see a complete wackjob/twit when I look at that face.
posted by Zambrano at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2008
The collective thought process of our nation is chaotic, gut-level, poorly reasoned. I accept it at a root level that there is some core wisdom in the American electorate, that truth will out and the good guys will win someday. But what if it isn't true? What if Gore and Kerry weren't wine-sipping nancy boys and brainiacs but were actually good people who lost to worse ones?
Here's the conclusion that I've drawn: Americans back the strong. Less simply, Americans support people, organizations and causes that project strength and support a perception of strength.
Intellectualism is seen as weak; where is the strength in looking at multiple points of view, asks the average American. Strength is in taking one position, whether true or not, whether valid or valuable or destructive, and holding onto it with both hands. Not merely holding onto that point of view, but attacking all contrary points of view.
Negotiating with enemies is weak. Accepting or adopting a religious view that does not mandate a hierachy is weak. Being different from your neighbour means that you're undermining the fortress of his ego; that cannot stand. He is in a position of strength; surely those who are different must be attacking him.
The rich are strong, and Americans dream about becoming stronger. Taxing the wealthy is punishing the strong. Telling an American that he will never be rich is a coward's tactic. Of course I don't support taxing the wealthy, America says -- that's a weasel's way of fighting the strong and supporting the weak. But you're lower middle class, argues the intellectual, and I want to lower your taxes. The American then bristles at being labelled weak or told that he is not likely to ever be strong in that way.
If the weak succeed in war, it is only because they have acted dishonourably. Guerilla warfare. Terrorism. Improvised explosive devices. If the strong fail in war it's because the peace-loving weaklings held us back. We have the greatest military might in history; if we failed it's because we were stopped by weaklings who used trickery to stem our budgets or dishonourably hurt morale.
We punish people as a show of strength. Rehabilitation is a sign of weakness. We want to punish women who left the house and got themselves raped by not letting them abort. We punish weaklings who dare to step outside of the free speech zones. Showing mercy to mentally disabled criminals is weak: no exceptions. You kill your enemies. You don't coddle them.
"But your candidate is lying." Fuck you, you little weakling. Can't take it? Quit. If you write that we're liars in the paper, it's because you're cowards and can't stand up to a fair fight and have to use the media to fight your battles for you.
Given the choice between a bully and a nerd, America will pick the bully every time. Sadly, I don't think this election is going to be any different.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [22 favorites]
Here's the conclusion that I've drawn: Americans back the strong. Less simply, Americans support people, organizations and causes that project strength and support a perception of strength.
Intellectualism is seen as weak; where is the strength in looking at multiple points of view, asks the average American. Strength is in taking one position, whether true or not, whether valid or valuable or destructive, and holding onto it with both hands. Not merely holding onto that point of view, but attacking all contrary points of view.
Negotiating with enemies is weak. Accepting or adopting a religious view that does not mandate a hierachy is weak. Being different from your neighbour means that you're undermining the fortress of his ego; that cannot stand. He is in a position of strength; surely those who are different must be attacking him.
The rich are strong, and Americans dream about becoming stronger. Taxing the wealthy is punishing the strong. Telling an American that he will never be rich is a coward's tactic. Of course I don't support taxing the wealthy, America says -- that's a weasel's way of fighting the strong and supporting the weak. But you're lower middle class, argues the intellectual, and I want to lower your taxes. The American then bristles at being labelled weak or told that he is not likely to ever be strong in that way.
If the weak succeed in war, it is only because they have acted dishonourably. Guerilla warfare. Terrorism. Improvised explosive devices. If the strong fail in war it's because the peace-loving weaklings held us back. We have the greatest military might in history; if we failed it's because we were stopped by weaklings who used trickery to stem our budgets or dishonourably hurt morale.
We punish people as a show of strength. Rehabilitation is a sign of weakness. We want to punish women who left the house and got themselves raped by not letting them abort. We punish weaklings who dare to step outside of the free speech zones. Showing mercy to mentally disabled criminals is weak: no exceptions. You kill your enemies. You don't coddle them.
"But your candidate is lying." Fuck you, you little weakling. Can't take it? Quit. If you write that we're liars in the paper, it's because you're cowards and can't stand up to a fair fight and have to use the media to fight your battles for you.
Given the choice between a bully and a nerd, America will pick the bully every time. Sadly, I don't think this election is going to be any different.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [22 favorites]
I should clarify -- it wasn't the NYT but another media outlet that irresponsibly demanded a paternity test...
No media outlets asked for a paternity test, in fact, it doesn't even make any sense, Palin is the mother and paternity tests determine the father. It was just a dumbass rumor floated by the McCain campaign, which lies about everything.
posted by delmoi at 1:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
No media outlets asked for a paternity test, in fact, it doesn't even make any sense, Palin is the mother and paternity tests determine the father. It was just a dumbass rumor floated by the McCain campaign, which lies about everything.
posted by delmoi at 1:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Got to watch the Blue Angels practice whilst sunning myself on the beach. It was nice.
>Holy cats! You've SEEN the jets? By Palin logic, you're qualified to run either the air force or the NTSB. Take your pick!
Nerts to that, I got a goddamn airshow flying over my house, and the other 364 days of the year, I'm directly below the approach path for landings.
I'M KING OF THE SKYYYYY!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2008
>Holy cats! You've SEEN the jets? By Palin logic, you're qualified to run either the air force or the NTSB. Take your pick!
Nerts to that, I got a goddamn airshow flying over my house, and the other 364 days of the year, I'm directly below the approach path for landings.
I'M KING OF THE SKYYYYY!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2008
I would love for a reporter to ask Sarah Palin how she feels about John McCain's Rape Joke.
The victim in this joke? Did she have to pay for her own rape test kit?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
The victim in this joke? Did she have to pay for her own rape test kit?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Of all the discussion-worthy, interesting things that could be said about the election as it stands the single most important one by far, IMO, is what five fresh fish said:
Get Out The Vote.
It's not just a slogan, people. If you as a people, as a nation can manage to get as many people as possible to simply tick a box, press a button, all these students in Virginia who are being misled into believing they cannot register to vote at their college address, all these "bitter" voters in, say, Hocking County, Ohio -- and let's ditch the quotation marks now, okay, because many of them are bitter and who's to blame them, I'd be if I was goaded time and again to vote against my economic interests just because the Republican candidates have usually done a better job of speaking to these people's visceral sense of identity instead of summing up the issues and running campaigns like policy briefings as Democrats have been wont to do -- and yes, hell why not, even the masses and masses of black people from Alexandria to Atlanta who have never once voted in their lives because well, what's the point?, do you think a Republican would ever in the foreseeable future win another presidential election?
I imagine Plouffe will agree that running a successful US Democratic presidential campaign is all about the three Ts: Turnout, Turnout, and Turnout.
So start today. Register. Learn how to vote early in your state. Learn how to vote from abroad. Know your registration deadline.
Take notice of these things even if they do not apply to you directly, and pass them on to those to whom they do.
Get. Involved. Knock on a few doors. Make some calls. Drive people to the polls.
And most of all: vote. Even if you're not registered in a swing state: imagine the (appropriate) constitutional crisis if another candidate were to win the electoral college while losing the popular vote, by a few million instead of half a million like that one time, if you remember. Imagine the clout it would lend to those pursuing electoral reform.
I wish I could help beyond merely discussing this on the Internet and trying to shout motivation into my American friends, but I can't, because I'm not American. Many of you, however, can.
So act, and then we'll have all the time to discuss and lament or celebrate how it went from November 5th onward.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2008 [21 favorites]
Get Out The Vote.
It's not just a slogan, people. If you as a people, as a nation can manage to get as many people as possible to simply tick a box, press a button, all these students in Virginia who are being misled into believing they cannot register to vote at their college address, all these "bitter" voters in, say, Hocking County, Ohio -- and let's ditch the quotation marks now, okay, because many of them are bitter and who's to blame them, I'd be if I was goaded time and again to vote against my economic interests just because the Republican candidates have usually done a better job of speaking to these people's visceral sense of identity instead of summing up the issues and running campaigns like policy briefings as Democrats have been wont to do -- and yes, hell why not, even the masses and masses of black people from Alexandria to Atlanta who have never once voted in their lives because well, what's the point?, do you think a Republican would ever in the foreseeable future win another presidential election?
I imagine Plouffe will agree that running a successful US Democratic presidential campaign is all about the three Ts: Turnout, Turnout, and Turnout.
So start today. Register. Learn how to vote early in your state. Learn how to vote from abroad. Know your registration deadline.
Take notice of these things even if they do not apply to you directly, and pass them on to those to whom they do.
Get. Involved. Knock on a few doors. Make some calls. Drive people to the polls.
And most of all: vote. Even if you're not registered in a swing state: imagine the (appropriate) constitutional crisis if another candidate were to win the electoral college while losing the popular vote, by a few million instead of half a million like that one time, if you remember. Imagine the clout it would lend to those pursuing electoral reform.
I wish I could help beyond merely discussing this on the Internet and trying to shout motivation into my American friends, but I can't, because I'm not American. Many of you, however, can.
So act, and then we'll have all the time to discuss and lament or celebrate how it went from November 5th onward.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2008 [21 favorites]
Democrats come across as "knowing what's best for you"
Translation: Knowing what's best for you = "won't let me say n*gger in polite company"
posted by jonp72 at 1:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Translation: Knowing what's best for you = "won't let me say n*gger in polite company"
posted by jonp72 at 1:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin Bags a Big One -- portrait by Zina Saunders
posted by bonobo at 1:41 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobo at 1:41 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately it seems to be working.
What a mess.
Only, it's not working. Not only did Obama just have a history-making fund raising month, but as MSNBC recently reported, those signs of a turn-around for McCain we've been hearing so much idiotic chatter about? Yeah, well, maybe not so much. Among many other blatant falsehoods (like how Palin never requested any earmarks as governor--a clumsy, outright lie that the record easily shows up), it's been revealed the McCain campaign has actually been lying to the press even about the size of the crowds at its rallies!
Given the choice between a bully and a nerd, America will pick the bully every time. Sadly, I don't think this election is going to be any different.
No offense, but you're huffing a little too much overpriced gas if you think a guy that can make a three point shot like this is a nerd. Obama's the best of both worlds: An accomplished intellectual extrovert. And that's why he is going to be the next president.
Well, that and the McCain people have actually crossed over into crazy Katherine Harris land now, and don't seem to be coming back. A few photo-shopped images of Palin's face on a hooker's body passed around by email aren't going to change that, I'm afraid.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:44 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
What a mess.
Only, it's not working. Not only did Obama just have a history-making fund raising month, but as MSNBC recently reported, those signs of a turn-around for McCain we've been hearing so much idiotic chatter about? Yeah, well, maybe not so much. Among many other blatant falsehoods (like how Palin never requested any earmarks as governor--a clumsy, outright lie that the record easily shows up), it's been revealed the McCain campaign has actually been lying to the press even about the size of the crowds at its rallies!
Given the choice between a bully and a nerd, America will pick the bully every time. Sadly, I don't think this election is going to be any different.
No offense, but you're huffing a little too much overpriced gas if you think a guy that can make a three point shot like this is a nerd. Obama's the best of both worlds: An accomplished intellectual extrovert. And that's why he is going to be the next president.
Well, that and the McCain people have actually crossed over into crazy Katherine Harris land now, and don't seem to be coming back. A few photo-shopped images of Palin's face on a hooker's body passed around by email aren't going to change that, I'm afraid.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:44 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
See also: Sarah Palin, by the Book from Zina Saunders.
posted by bonobo at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by bonobo at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2008
No offense, but you're huffing a little too much overpriced gas if you think a guy that can make a three point shot like this is a nerd.
No offense, but you're huffing gas if you think Obama's the bully.
And that's why he is going to be the next president.
If artificial conflict didn't sell newspapers, I might agree.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:47 PM on September 14, 2008
No offense, but you're huffing gas if you think Obama's the bully.
And that's why he is going to be the next president.
If artificial conflict didn't sell newspapers, I might agree.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:47 PM on September 14, 2008
McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has fielded in a very long time,
Bob Dole, 1996. If the Clinton campaign that year was a car, all they needed to do was put a brick on the gas pedal and tie some kite string around the steering wheel.
and the political and economic situation is a disaster for the GOP.
Yes, yes it is. Which is why Obama needs to ignore Palin and other petty distractions while continuing to hammer the McCain = Bush drum from now until November.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:49 PM on September 14, 2008
Bob Dole, 1996. If the Clinton campaign that year was a car, all they needed to do was put a brick on the gas pedal and tie some kite string around the steering wheel.
and the political and economic situation is a disaster for the GOP.
Yes, yes it is. Which is why Obama needs to ignore Palin and other petty distractions while continuing to hammer the McCain = Bush drum from now until November.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:49 PM on September 14, 2008
Not to mention that our McMansions, empty or not, far outclass any available new construction anywhere in the world.
I reckon 'class' is the wrong expression here.
posted by dydecker at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
I reckon 'class' is the wrong expression here.
posted by dydecker at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
No offense, but you're huffing gas if you think Obama's the bully.
He never said he was, he's pointing out that Obama doesn't fit so snugly in the nerd's locker of public opinion as some folks may like.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:51 PM on September 14, 2008
He never said he was, he's pointing out that Obama doesn't fit so snugly in the nerd's locker of public opinion as some folks may like.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:51 PM on September 14, 2008
Notice interesting parallels between the Democratic primary and this election? Hillary drove news cycle after news cycle. What did she get? A reputation as a dirty campaigner who flirted with racial imaging and had trouble telling the truth about her experiences in places like Bosnia.
And what do we have here? McCain driving news cycle after news cycle--but building up a reputation for lying about Obama and his statements, lying about Palin and her so-called opposition to the "bridge to nowhere."
Coincidence? I think not.
The news media believes that whoever is providing its content and driving the news cycle is winning. For them to believe otherwise would mean they are less important then they think.
Reporters are often the last to detect large-scale change. They are wrapped up in the-day-to-day, a perspective that is not the best for observing larger changes. Predictions of such change are very risky for reporters to make.
There's no doubt that the current paradigm of cheap shot attacks and untruths will give way to another way of campaigning. What form that new paradigm will take is unknown. I'd say the last major change was the "battleground states" methodology. We will see if Obama is on to something new or not.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:52 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
And what do we have here? McCain driving news cycle after news cycle--but building up a reputation for lying about Obama and his statements, lying about Palin and her so-called opposition to the "bridge to nowhere."
Coincidence? I think not.
The news media believes that whoever is providing its content and driving the news cycle is winning. For them to believe otherwise would mean they are less important then they think.
Reporters are often the last to detect large-scale change. They are wrapped up in the-day-to-day, a perspective that is not the best for observing larger changes. Predictions of such change are very risky for reporters to make.
There's no doubt that the current paradigm of cheap shot attacks and untruths will give way to another way of campaigning. What form that new paradigm will take is unknown. I'd say the last major change was the "battleground states" methodology. We will see if Obama is on to something new or not.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:52 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Also, from the waffle piece:
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
On the back of the box, Obama is depicted in stereotypical Mexican dress, including a sombrero, above a recipe for "Open Border Fiesta Waffles" that says it can serve "4 or more illegal aliens." The recipe includes a tip: "While waiting for these zesty treats to invade your home, why not learn a foreign language?"The grunting, drooling, pig ignorance of these people astounds me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:53 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Palin represents the pioneering woman who settled the old west, the woman who gets up every morning at 5:00am, fixes breakfast for her family, gets the kids on the bus, goes to work, comes home, cooks dinner ... &c.
Palin represents the woman with a $150,000 seaplane who has her kids raised by a nanny, laughs at female cancer survivors, bills the state government for meals she had at at home, and lies about firing the state chef. What Palin "represents" is a media-constructed lie.
posted by jonp72 at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Palin represents the woman with a $150,000 seaplane who has her kids raised by a nanny, laughs at female cancer survivors, bills the state government for meals she had at at home, and lies about firing the state chef. What Palin "represents" is a media-constructed lie.
posted by jonp72 at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Given the choice between a bully and a nerd, America will pick the bully every time.
This is just flat out false. Not that I'm knocking your insight. I think you make interesting points, however there's one small problem.
2000 was a tie, and Al Gore won the popular vote. In that election Bush ran as a moderate, "compassionate" conservative. Despite tipping their evil hand in the primaries, they waited until after they won to really start pbeing total dicks.
2004 came down to Ohio, and that states votes were highly suspect. Swift Boating and all, Kerry came as close as he could without winning. He got 9 million MORE votes than Gore got 4 years earlier. Considering Bush was the incumbent, we were at war, and they had already started stacking the govt. with shills fully empowered to unfairly use their positions politically...it shouldn't havebeen that close
America only loves it's winners in hindsight. Or more accurately in the case of the past 8 years, America is like a rube getting hustled by a three card monte hustler on some streetcorner. Rather than admit they got hustled, they keep throwing good money after bad, despite the fact that the crowd has turned, and everybody's whispering that the fix is on. If McCain loses, his biggest mistake will have been running away from Bush rather than toward him. I think the people would have been willing to throw one last dollar in that pot to save face.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
This is just flat out false. Not that I'm knocking your insight. I think you make interesting points, however there's one small problem.
2000 was a tie, and Al Gore won the popular vote. In that election Bush ran as a moderate, "compassionate" conservative. Despite tipping their evil hand in the primaries, they waited until after they won to really start pbeing total dicks.
2004 came down to Ohio, and that states votes were highly suspect. Swift Boating and all, Kerry came as close as he could without winning. He got 9 million MORE votes than Gore got 4 years earlier. Considering Bush was the incumbent, we were at war, and they had already started stacking the govt. with shills fully empowered to unfairly use their positions politically...it shouldn't havebeen that close
America only loves it's winners in hindsight. Or more accurately in the case of the past 8 years, America is like a rube getting hustled by a three card monte hustler on some streetcorner. Rather than admit they got hustled, they keep throwing good money after bad, despite the fact that the crowd has turned, and everybody's whispering that the fix is on. If McCain loses, his biggest mistake will have been running away from Bush rather than toward him. I think the people would have been willing to throw one last dollar in that pot to save face.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Did y'all see Obama's interview will Bill O'Reilly? Dude is not a wimp. He went head to head with Bill and earned his respect. If the storyline is "Obama is a wimp" just because he's not taking cheap shots, wait until the debates. He will crush McCain.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2008
This is pretty much why I never post to Metafilter anymore regarding anything political. I offered up an eminently sensible anaysis -- I even liked to Kos for crying out loud to make a point. You don't have to agree with me, but Republican=lying fascist gets really, really fucking old. You'd have to blind as a partisan bat not to agree that the MSM has really screwed up the Palin coverage -- such that we've reached a point where even legit criticism can't get through because the media isn't trusted. Which is bad for Obama.
I sure as hell didn't make up the fact that the NYT rushed to print with a page one story about Palin that was bogus and numerous other examples of discreditable conduct abound -- including the ones breathlessly cited above, but somehow suggesting that respectable media asked for a paternity test is ridiculous? Hardly. (If you read the original Kos diary accusing Palin of covering for her daughter's alleged pregnancy you'd know why they requested it.) As for the paternity test request, I have damn good reasons to believe in fact real, but I have no interest in convincing anybody here otherwise.
My basic point was simple: piling on Palin entrenches anti-media prejudice and drowns out Obama's message. That's a pretty sound point to make, no matter what political perspective you're coming from. But thank God we have Metafilter's ideological praetorian guard will shut out all dissent and make sure I don't get my conservative cooties on anyone.
posted by Heminator at 2:03 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I sure as hell didn't make up the fact that the NYT rushed to print with a page one story about Palin that was bogus and numerous other examples of discreditable conduct abound -- including the ones breathlessly cited above, but somehow suggesting that respectable media asked for a paternity test is ridiculous? Hardly. (If you read the original Kos diary accusing Palin of covering for her daughter's alleged pregnancy you'd know why they requested it.) As for the paternity test request, I have damn good reasons to believe in fact real, but I have no interest in convincing anybody here otherwise.
My basic point was simple: piling on Palin entrenches anti-media prejudice and drowns out Obama's message. That's a pretty sound point to make, no matter what political perspective you're coming from. But thank God we have Metafilter's ideological praetorian guard will shut out all dissent and make sure I don't get my conservative cooties on anyone.
posted by Heminator at 2:03 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
The McCain campaign must know that Obama and Biden will demolish the GOP ticket in a debate. McCain's advisers must be sweating bullets right now.
McCain isn't known for a lack of cojones though. I can see him arguing that he'll just present the "honest, unvarnished" John McCain behind the podium and hope that courage and "values" will win the day. Of course, this would be like trying to win at chess using Stratego tactics.
posted by illiad at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain isn't known for a lack of cojones though. I can see him arguing that he'll just present the "honest, unvarnished" John McCain behind the podium and hope that courage and "values" will win the day. Of course, this would be like trying to win at chess using Stratego tactics.
posted by illiad at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't remember reading about German internment camps.
Both Italians and Germans - first-generation immigrants, mostly, but a few citizens - were held in camps in the U.S. during WW2. About 60% of Japanese people held in U.S. internment camps were U.S. citizens. The percentage of such was lower among Italians and Germans.
According to some first-hand history I've heard while birding in the Klamath region in California - where the Japanese-American internment camp at Tule Lake was, the Germans held in the region had far more freedom. They were able to leave their compounds, drive cars around, go visiting, etc. Pretty much the first thing our birding group was told by our local guide was "Don't ask about the Japanese camp. It's still a sore subject."
posted by rtha at 2:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Both Italians and Germans - first-generation immigrants, mostly, but a few citizens - were held in camps in the U.S. during WW2. About 60% of Japanese people held in U.S. internment camps were U.S. citizens. The percentage of such was lower among Italians and Germans.
According to some first-hand history I've heard while birding in the Klamath region in California - where the Japanese-American internment camp at Tule Lake was, the Germans held in the region had far more freedom. They were able to leave their compounds, drive cars around, go visiting, etc. Pretty much the first thing our birding group was told by our local guide was "Don't ask about the Japanese camp. It's still a sore subject."
posted by rtha at 2:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
major reason why Obama is now slipping
Or else it's a convention bounce, an acknowledged fact of politics that always happens and always dissipates in a few weeks. Every single time.
Good look with that self-fulfilling prophecy though.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2008
Or else it's a convention bounce, an acknowledged fact of politics that always happens and always dissipates in a few weeks. Every single time.
Good look with that self-fulfilling prophecy though.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2008
Also for anyone freaking out about McCain/Palin, please note that people like MapGuy and konolia are merely agents of Rove's "keep the opponents in turmoil" strategy. MeFi doesn't ban concern trolls, so I suggest you ignore them (please, even if I fail to do so) and go donate money or time to the Obama campaign.
Remember that if McCain is elected, and he is incapacited, then Palin will be President, and within a few years a rapist will be able to choose which woman is going to bear his child. I want you to think about that for a moment. You or your mother or sister or daughter or wife would be forced to bear her rapist's child under a Palin presidency.
Please donate and volunteer today.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Remember that if McCain is elected, and he is incapacited, then Palin will be President, and within a few years a rapist will be able to choose which woman is going to bear his child. I want you to think about that for a moment. You or your mother or sister or daughter or wife would be forced to bear her rapist's child under a Palin presidency.
Please donate and volunteer today.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
I offered up an eminently sensible anaysis -- I even liked to Kos for crying out loud to make a point. You don't have to agree with me, but Republican=lying fascist gets really, really fucking old. You'd have to blind as a partisan bat not to agree that the MSM has really screwed up the Palin coverage -- such that we've reached a point where even legit criticism can't get through because the media isn't trusted.
Your "eminently sensible anaysis" aside, people will, from time to time, disagree with things you say. Try not to take it too personally. Let's look at what actually happened: There were some premature shots fired at Palin early on, but these came mostly from the blog world which Team McCain then brought the whole world's attention to by crying about it in the MSM. They then used this as an opportunity to say the media itself was attacking poor defenseless Palin, that tireless public servant, and that therefore the media would have VIP Only access to her. Anyone who pushed to hard about her background and her record was "attacking" her or being sexist, and it continues to this day with that ridiculous lipstick kerfuffle.
I do however agree Palin is best ignored and that we need to stay on point with a very simple message to win this thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Your "eminently sensible anaysis" aside, people will, from time to time, disagree with things you say. Try not to take it too personally. Let's look at what actually happened: There were some premature shots fired at Palin early on, but these came mostly from the blog world which Team McCain then brought the whole world's attention to by crying about it in the MSM. They then used this as an opportunity to say the media itself was attacking poor defenseless Palin, that tireless public servant, and that therefore the media would have VIP Only access to her. Anyone who pushed to hard about her background and her record was "attacking" her or being sexist, and it continues to this day with that ridiculous lipstick kerfuffle.
I do however agree Palin is best ignored and that we need to stay on point with a very simple message to win this thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
2000 was a tie, and Al Gore won the popular vote
In fact, the democrat has gotten more votes in 3 of the last 4 elections. If not for the historical fluke of 9/11 it would almost certainly be every election since 1992. And yet some on the left still can't stop waiting, hoping, cheerleading for the sky to fall, so they can feel like elite minority lost among the philistines.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:15 PM on September 14, 2008
In fact, the democrat has gotten more votes in 3 of the last 4 elections. If not for the historical fluke of 9/11 it would almost certainly be every election since 1992. And yet some on the left still can't stop waiting, hoping, cheerleading for the sky to fall, so they can feel like elite minority lost among the philistines.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:15 PM on September 14, 2008
My basic point was simple: piling on Palin entrenches anti-media prejudice and drowns out Obama's message.
I think that's absolutely true. What's going on is that Obama supporters of all stripes are frustrated/outraged/anxious about Palin being touted as this "breath of fresh air" that has "energized the Republican Party", after delivering an incredibly negative and sarcastic speech at the RNCC, and then making all sorts of claims on the stump that have turned out to be demonstrably false.
When you see the level of excitement created by something that after only a bit of digger looks to be completely phony, it triggers a visceral response that's hard to suppress.
That said, you're right. The longer the discussion stays on Palin, the longer Obama is off his message.
posted by psmealey at 2:18 PM on September 14, 2008
I think that's absolutely true. What's going on is that Obama supporters of all stripes are frustrated/outraged/anxious about Palin being touted as this "breath of fresh air" that has "energized the Republican Party", after delivering an incredibly negative and sarcastic speech at the RNCC, and then making all sorts of claims on the stump that have turned out to be demonstrably false.
When you see the level of excitement created by something that after only a bit of digger looks to be completely phony, it triggers a visceral response that's hard to suppress.
That said, you're right. The longer the discussion stays on Palin, the longer Obama is off his message.
posted by psmealey at 2:18 PM on September 14, 2008
why Obama is now slipping
Well, a compilation of data from numerous polls actually shows the gap closing at the time of this posting. Looks like the bloom is off the rose.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:21 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, a compilation of data from numerous polls actually shows the gap closing at the time of this posting. Looks like the bloom is off the rose.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:21 PM on September 14, 2008
No offense, but you're huffing gas if you think Obama's the bully.
Oh, I don't think for a minute he's the bully--he's more like that rare, well-loved high school jock, who just happens to also be captain of the debate team and the regional chess champ. He's a likable over-achiever, not a nerd.
The world isn't just divided into groups of bullies and nerds, you know. In fact, one thing bullies and nerds have in common is that both exist on the fringes of normal social life, never fully achieving the popular acceptance they so desperately seek. Obama--unlike McCain with his infamously quick temper--can make headway in popular circles because he's not a nerd or a bully.
(And I'm not huffing gas right now, because it really is too expensive here in Florida.)
posted by saulgoodman at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, I don't think for a minute he's the bully--he's more like that rare, well-loved high school jock, who just happens to also be captain of the debate team and the regional chess champ. He's a likable over-achiever, not a nerd.
The world isn't just divided into groups of bullies and nerds, you know. In fact, one thing bullies and nerds have in common is that both exist on the fringes of normal social life, never fully achieving the popular acceptance they so desperately seek. Obama--unlike McCain with his infamously quick temper--can make headway in popular circles because he's not a nerd or a bully.
(And I'm not huffing gas right now, because it really is too expensive here in Florida.)
posted by saulgoodman at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Michelle Malkin happens to be Asian American. What was that about her being a racist?
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 14 [+] [!]
What the hell?
I'm Asian American, and I know plenty of Asian Americans who think other Asian Americans are filthy and would much rather spend time with the much superior white race.
Do you not know, say, a singular woman who says sexist things? I'm a tutor, and a mother told me that she wanted me to tutor her daughter because her daughter's high school math teacher is female, and that women should not be allowed to teach math. Oh, and by the way, this mother is a professional accountant, but she considers herself a very special exception.
Are you not aware of the complexities of, you know, being human?
.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 2:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 14 [+] [!]
What the hell?
I'm Asian American, and I know plenty of Asian Americans who think other Asian Americans are filthy and would much rather spend time with the much superior white race.
Do you not know, say, a singular woman who says sexist things? I'm a tutor, and a mother told me that she wanted me to tutor her daughter because her daughter's high school math teacher is female, and that women should not be allowed to teach math. Oh, and by the way, this mother is a professional accountant, but she considers herself a very special exception.
Are you not aware of the complexities of, you know, being human?
.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 2:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
My basic point was simple: piling on Palin entrenches anti-media prejudice and drowns out Obama's message. That's a pretty sound point to make, no matter what political perspective you're coming from.
I'm not scared of your conservative cooties. I wholeheartedly agree with you. However,I also believe that Obama being out of the spotlight for a few weeks, helps him. Don't forget that while Obama has dominated the news attention this election, most of the news has been negative, misleading, and completely off-point. Up until the Palin pick this election was purely an Obama referendum. Now it's quickly becoming a Palin referendum. That helps Obama. It's not like his campaign is on hold just because he's not the lead news story. He's still out there shaking hands and kissing babies. And now he gets to do so without anyone looking over your shoulder asking "are you sure you want this guy kissing your baby?"
Ask yourself this. What was the main Obama story last week? It was the lipstick/pig remark. What WASN'T the main story? The scary black man wants to talk dirty to your kids ad. If the news was all Obama all the time, there would have been room for both stories.
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'm not scared of your conservative cooties. I wholeheartedly agree with you. However,I also believe that Obama being out of the spotlight for a few weeks, helps him. Don't forget that while Obama has dominated the news attention this election, most of the news has been negative, misleading, and completely off-point. Up until the Palin pick this election was purely an Obama referendum. Now it's quickly becoming a Palin referendum. That helps Obama. It's not like his campaign is on hold just because he's not the lead news story. He's still out there shaking hands and kissing babies. And now he gets to do so without anyone looking over your shoulder asking "are you sure you want this guy kissing your baby?"
Ask yourself this. What was the main Obama story last week? It was the lipstick/pig remark. What WASN'T the main story? The scary black man wants to talk dirty to your kids ad. If the news was all Obama all the time, there would have been room for both stories.
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Favorited for "conservative cooties".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:38 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:38 PM on September 14, 2008
What's bizarre to me is how the media can continue to portray the Republicans as the "family values" party with a straight face. Their candidate is an adulterer who married his mistress. The mistress-now-wife is an ex-junkie who stole painkillers from a charity and destroyed a doctor to get her fix. The VP candidate is a career woman so driven that she made a speech while leaking amniotic fluid, rather than ensure the safety of her baby.
If these folks were dems, don't you think we'd be hearing about the "character issue"?
I'm not saying we should be judging people on those things, but if the Republicans are going to judge Democrats on them, it's only fair that the media point out their double standard.
posted by Maias at 2:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
I wish they'd hurry up and work through those subpoenas on Palin's husband and aides and get on with the indicting for corruption and abuse of power.
Of course, if she's indicted *after* the election, and found guilty, but McCain wins, he could just pardon her. 'Here he comes to save the day...'
posted by jamstigator at 2:43 PM on September 14, 2008
Of course, if she's indicted *after* the election, and found guilty, but McCain wins, he could just pardon her. 'Here he comes to save the day...'
posted by jamstigator at 2:43 PM on September 14, 2008
Neoconservatives whose influence had been waning in Washington have hitched their colours to rising star Sarah Palin in a bid to shape US foreign policy for another decade.
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on September 14, 2008
Ironically, given the"celebrity" ads, the McCain camp have stumbled on the fact there's no such thing as bad (as long as it is not overtly about moral or sexual transgression). Obama needs to get himself in the news. Something controversial - something that will shift the focus
posted by Neiltupper at 2:49 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Neiltupper at 2:49 PM on September 14, 2008
It's surprising how many people are expecting Obama to crush McCain in the debates. Unless McCain has an exceptionally bad day, this won't happen. Did you see the Saddleback "faith forum"? McCain did a nice job earnestly delivering simple applause lines, while Obama seemed to get bogged down by providing real answers.
Expect in the debate to hear McCain hammer Obama continuously on whether the surge worked and how well it worked, and how foolish it was not to listen an old ballsy warrior like gizzly McCain. McCain will do well by exceeding expectations.
But my money is still on Obama, for a few reasons. For one thing, there's a reason why deception and negativity are usually avoided by campaigns until immediately before elections. As a result of McCains's lies, we're likely to see his numbers begin to drop as polls catch up with the steady erosion of his brand that we've seen in the last few days.
Moreover: Palin will not be a miracle-worker. Despite her demographical attractiveness, she's a poor speaker when off the teleprompter, whose lack of knowledge can't easily be hidden. The story, which has already shifted from her prettyness to her lies, will focus more and more on her mistakes.
Finally, Obama's organization can help him win. It's well put-together, and effective at raising money. Speaking of which, I'll be donating (again) on Tuesday, once my paycheck arrives. Hopefully others supporters of Obama here will also consider upping the level of time and money that they've been willing to provide thus far.
(One final note: did you see in the Times that now, a couple months before the election, that Bush has suddenly authorized US troops to go into Pakistan looking for Bin Laden and his associates? The odds of a real "October Surprise" are looking a little higher.)
posted by washburn at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Expect in the debate to hear McCain hammer Obama continuously on whether the surge worked and how well it worked, and how foolish it was not to listen an old ballsy warrior like gizzly McCain. McCain will do well by exceeding expectations.
But my money is still on Obama, for a few reasons. For one thing, there's a reason why deception and negativity are usually avoided by campaigns until immediately before elections. As a result of McCains's lies, we're likely to see his numbers begin to drop as polls catch up with the steady erosion of his brand that we've seen in the last few days.
Moreover: Palin will not be a miracle-worker. Despite her demographical attractiveness, she's a poor speaker when off the teleprompter, whose lack of knowledge can't easily be hidden. The story, which has already shifted from her prettyness to her lies, will focus more and more on her mistakes.
Finally, Obama's organization can help him win. It's well put-together, and effective at raising money. Speaking of which, I'll be donating (again) on Tuesday, once my paycheck arrives. Hopefully others supporters of Obama here will also consider upping the level of time and money that they've been willing to provide thus far.
(One final note: did you see in the Times that now, a couple months before the election, that Bush has suddenly authorized US troops to go into Pakistan looking for Bin Laden and his associates? The odds of a real "October Surprise" are looking a little higher.)
posted by washburn at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2008
psmealy: Yes. For the past 18 months, Obama has run an incredibly smart, effective and successful Presidential campaign with a high degree of street level organization, and a fund-raising capability that's second to none.
Well, this argument is a non-starter. About 70-80% of what the president is responsible for goes through the Senate in some form or another, from budget bills, federal laws, to top-level appointments. Senators have a much better understanding of how the federal government is structured than any governor or small business owner.
And I'm a broken record on this point. But Obama can strike back on the "experience" by pointing out that the worst policy disasters of the last decade have come from promoting putting political hacks and yes-men into key advisory positions.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, this argument is a non-starter. About 70-80% of what the president is responsible for goes through the Senate in some form or another, from budget bills, federal laws, to top-level appointments. Senators have a much better understanding of how the federal government is structured than any governor or small business owner.
And I'm a broken record on this point. But Obama can strike back on the "experience" by pointing out that the worst policy disasters of the last decade have come from promoting putting political hacks and yes-men into key advisory positions.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Obama needs to get himself in the news. Something controversial - something that will shift the focus.
Great let’s talk about actual executive experience. Let’s talk the actual number of bills worked on in twenty-two years in the Senate vs. four. Let’s talk about when the hell Biden is going to step up and shore up his party’s position in this election. As I said before it has never been McCain’s to win, it is Obama’s to lose. As I said before the VP debate will decide this election.
posted by MapGuy at 3:30 PM on September 14, 2008
Great let’s talk about actual executive experience. Let’s talk the actual number of bills worked on in twenty-two years in the Senate vs. four. Let’s talk about when the hell Biden is going to step up and shore up his party’s position in this election. As I said before it has never been McCain’s to win, it is Obama’s to lose. As I said before the VP debate will decide this election.
posted by MapGuy at 3:30 PM on September 14, 2008
Great let’s talk about actual executive experience. Let’s talk the actual number of bills worked on in twenty-two years in the Senate vs. four.
Please stop with these non-sequitirs. We've moved so far past that, it's not even relevant any more.
Let's look at the actual choice. You have a young, vigorous man with reasonable plan to tackle the next four years and the myriad problems staring us in the face, against an old, tired, embittered man who has been repeating the Bush call for tax cuts (which now Greenspan says we can't afford) and has been banging the drum for war with Iran for two years (which we cannot fight).
If it's not about experience, issues, or personality, it's got to be about judgment and vision. McCain's judgment is poor at best, he's sold out his core values for one last shot at the brass ring, and for vision, he can't seem to think past next week, and all he has is parroting the same old GOP slogans that have been around since Reagan ran against Mondale.
I don't see how any reasonable, clear thinking person picks McCain over Obama, despite whatever edge you can give to McCain on leadership and experience.
posted by psmealey at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Please stop with these non-sequitirs. We've moved so far past that, it's not even relevant any more.
Let's look at the actual choice. You have a young, vigorous man with reasonable plan to tackle the next four years and the myriad problems staring us in the face, against an old, tired, embittered man who has been repeating the Bush call for tax cuts (which now Greenspan says we can't afford) and has been banging the drum for war with Iran for two years (which we cannot fight).
If it's not about experience, issues, or personality, it's got to be about judgment and vision. McCain's judgment is poor at best, he's sold out his core values for one last shot at the brass ring, and for vision, he can't seem to think past next week, and all he has is parroting the same old GOP slogans that have been around since Reagan ran against Mondale.
I don't see how any reasonable, clear thinking person picks McCain over Obama, despite whatever edge you can give to McCain on leadership and experience.
posted by psmealey at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Did y'all see Obama's interview will Bill O'Reilly? Dude is not a wimp. He went head to head with Bill and earned his respect. If the storyline is "Obama is a wimp" just because he's not taking cheap shots, wait until the debates. He will crush McCain.
If there are debates. If McCain's team frames it right, I can see them taking a pass on it as 'politics as usual' and coming out smelling like a rose. This is one of my great worries. Even more than the presidential debates, the Republicans don't want to see Palin debate Biden; that would be disastrous. They're working on a way to prevent that debate from happening at all.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2008
If there are debates. If McCain's team frames it right, I can see them taking a pass on it as 'politics as usual' and coming out smelling like a rose. This is one of my great worries. Even more than the presidential debates, the Republicans don't want to see Palin debate Biden; that would be disastrous. They're working on a way to prevent that debate from happening at all.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2008
Obama needs to get himself in the news.
His supporters in Alaska deserve to be a starting point. 1400+ were estimated in attendance at this anti-Palin rally on the same day as Palin's kick-off, both in Anchorage. Among the banners mentioned: "Hey Hockey Mom -- stay the puck out of D.C."
More to the point: the Alaskan blogger ("mudflats.wordpress.com" some might recall from The Thread) who attended both events was startled to find the anti-Palin rally attendees significantly outnumbered the Welcome Home bash on the other side of town.
From her report:
"anyone who needs to know that Sarah Palin most definitely does not speak for all Alaskans. The citizens of Alaska, who know her best, have things to say."
posted by skyper at 4:08 PM on September 14, 2008
His supporters in Alaska deserve to be a starting point. 1400+ were estimated in attendance at this anti-Palin rally on the same day as Palin's kick-off, both in Anchorage. Among the banners mentioned: "Hey Hockey Mom -- stay the puck out of D.C."
More to the point: the Alaskan blogger ("mudflats.wordpress.com" some might recall from The Thread) who attended both events was startled to find the anti-Palin rally attendees significantly outnumbered the Welcome Home bash on the other side of town.
From her report:
"anyone who needs to know that Sarah Palin most definitely does not speak for all Alaskans. The citizens of Alaska, who know her best, have things to say."
posted by skyper at 4:08 PM on September 14, 2008
By the charts, there is a 66% chance of recurrence within 10 years, and 6 years have already lapsed.
So if McCain makes it to 9 years and 364 days cancer-free, would you then run out screaming, "Oh my God, there's a 2/3 chance that McCain will develop melanoma TODAY!"?
posted by notswedish at 4:17 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
So if McCain makes it to 9 years and 364 days cancer-free, would you then run out screaming, "Oh my God, there's a 2/3 chance that McCain will develop melanoma TODAY!"?
posted by notswedish at 4:17 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
He could shoot a bear?
No, no. A wolf - from an airplane!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:41 PM on September 14, 2008
No, no. A wolf - from an airplane!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:41 PM on September 14, 2008
Let’s talk the actual number of bills worked on in twenty-two years in the Senate vs. four.
Or we could talk about the last three sessions.
posted by dogrose at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2008
Or we could talk about the last three sessions.
posted by dogrose at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2008
So, so many thoughts running through my head, and so much hate lathering up about Palin and McCain and the lies and...
Still, here's the deal - all of the hate, all of the endless discussion about Palin that we just can't get enough of, is what's hurting Obama right now. Two weeks ago we were discussing whether she was a brilliant pick because she's a woman and Obama didn't pick Hillary and all that, or whether she was a stupid pick because of all the obvious pandering to women and the fact that she's just an on-the-face-of-it ridiculous choice. Now that the dust has cleared somewhat, it seems to me that she was a brilliant pick because she strikes at two of Obama's greatest strengths.
1. I don't think there are nearly as many voters out there who are against Obama strictly because of his race, and I think that 95% of any of them were going to vote for McCain anyway. Palin, however, has given them cover to be proud about it. Anybody who felt guilty about voting against Obama when the election was essentially a referendum on Obama's appointment (and that's how the news was covering it for months) could now come out in the open and say that they really like Palin. So that's strike one.
2. This is the more important strike, and the one that we're helping along: McCain has taken over every news cycle for the past two weeks, which is deadly to Obama. When Obama is on the news, it always helps, because he's so demonstrably the better candidate in these times. With Palin, McCain has managed to make the last two weeks (an eternity in politics at this point in an election cycle) be all about "well, what do I think about this McCain fellow and that Attractive, personable woman at his side?" Before Palin, McCain was seeming like an also-ran, a footnote before the election officially happened. It's not that Obama's heart isn't in it to fight back, it's that he can't get a news cycle where anyone is paying attention to him right now.
What Obama needs more than anything right now is a stunt. Palin was one of the most precipitous stunts in the stunt-riddled history of U.S. politics, and too much time has already been wasted on it. Every minute McCain dominates the news is another minute that Obama is unconsciously seen as "the other guy." Additionally, McCain and Palin are lying through their teeth at every given opportunity, and Obama can't afford to let it slide. I'm taking my idea here directly from a West Wing episode, but damned if I don't think it's a good one.
Obabma puts out a new ad, using the record-shattering amount of money he's got now, where he just faces the camera for two minutes and says something along the lines of the following:
"My fellow Americans, in this seemingly endless election year, I have done my best to remain positive and tell you all about my policies, and to convince you all about why this is the kind of change that America so badly needs right now. I intend to keep doing that, but my opponent, Sen. John McCain, has simply made too many false claims about himself, and too many baseless attacks upon my campaign, for me to let them stand..."
And then he will, succinctly, lay out McCain's lies and the truth behind them. At the end:
"As President of the United States I will throw out the policies which have devastated this nation for the past eight years. This country needs change, and Sen. McCain has promised not to deliver it. I'm Barack Obama, and yes, I approve this message."
With this bold moment, the news outlets will play segments of it ad nauseum, while bringing in pundits and strategists from both sides of the aisle as they are wont to do, but the story will be, "Is John McCain a liar?" With any luck, they'll also incidentally talk about things such as the Obama tax plan, because to discuss whether McCain has been lying about it (and he has) they'll need to discuss its merits as well. Presto: the MSM has a new sexy topic and it's one inherently damning to McCain.
If there are any Obama staffers on MeFi, all I can say is that I'm waiting.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Still, here's the deal - all of the hate, all of the endless discussion about Palin that we just can't get enough of, is what's hurting Obama right now. Two weeks ago we were discussing whether she was a brilliant pick because she's a woman and Obama didn't pick Hillary and all that, or whether she was a stupid pick because of all the obvious pandering to women and the fact that she's just an on-the-face-of-it ridiculous choice. Now that the dust has cleared somewhat, it seems to me that she was a brilliant pick because she strikes at two of Obama's greatest strengths.
1. I don't think there are nearly as many voters out there who are against Obama strictly because of his race, and I think that 95% of any of them were going to vote for McCain anyway. Palin, however, has given them cover to be proud about it. Anybody who felt guilty about voting against Obama when the election was essentially a referendum on Obama's appointment (and that's how the news was covering it for months) could now come out in the open and say that they really like Palin. So that's strike one.
2. This is the more important strike, and the one that we're helping along: McCain has taken over every news cycle for the past two weeks, which is deadly to Obama. When Obama is on the news, it always helps, because he's so demonstrably the better candidate in these times. With Palin, McCain has managed to make the last two weeks (an eternity in politics at this point in an election cycle) be all about "well, what do I think about this McCain fellow and that Attractive, personable woman at his side?" Before Palin, McCain was seeming like an also-ran, a footnote before the election officially happened. It's not that Obama's heart isn't in it to fight back, it's that he can't get a news cycle where anyone is paying attention to him right now.
What Obama needs more than anything right now is a stunt. Palin was one of the most precipitous stunts in the stunt-riddled history of U.S. politics, and too much time has already been wasted on it. Every minute McCain dominates the news is another minute that Obama is unconsciously seen as "the other guy." Additionally, McCain and Palin are lying through their teeth at every given opportunity, and Obama can't afford to let it slide. I'm taking my idea here directly from a West Wing episode, but damned if I don't think it's a good one.
Obabma puts out a new ad, using the record-shattering amount of money he's got now, where he just faces the camera for two minutes and says something along the lines of the following:
"My fellow Americans, in this seemingly endless election year, I have done my best to remain positive and tell you all about my policies, and to convince you all about why this is the kind of change that America so badly needs right now. I intend to keep doing that, but my opponent, Sen. John McCain, has simply made too many false claims about himself, and too many baseless attacks upon my campaign, for me to let them stand..."
And then he will, succinctly, lay out McCain's lies and the truth behind them. At the end:
"As President of the United States I will throw out the policies which have devastated this nation for the past eight years. This country needs change, and Sen. McCain has promised not to deliver it. I'm Barack Obama, and yes, I approve this message."
With this bold moment, the news outlets will play segments of it ad nauseum, while bringing in pundits and strategists from both sides of the aisle as they are wont to do, but the story will be, "Is John McCain a liar?" With any luck, they'll also incidentally talk about things such as the Obama tax plan, because to discuss whether McCain has been lying about it (and he has) they'll need to discuss its merits as well. Presto: the MSM has a new sexy topic and it's one inherently damning to McCain.
If there are any Obama staffers on MeFi, all I can say is that I'm waiting.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
I don't see how any reasonable, clear thinking person picks McCain over Obama, despite whatever edge you can give to McCain on leadership and experience.
Reasonable, clear thinking people are not a plurality in most states.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Reasonable, clear thinking people are not a plurality in most states.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
"The state elections agency is investigating complaints about a massive campaign mailing Republican Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign has directed toward Wisconsin Democrats and other voters."
"A McCain campaign spokeswoman said in a statement the mailing mistakes are "certainly not intentional" but she wouldn't answer questions. The statement also said the mailing went to "potential supporters across the spectrum."
posted by cashman at 5:07 PM on September 14, 2008
"A McCain campaign spokeswoman said in a statement the mailing mistakes are "certainly not intentional" but she wouldn't answer questions. The statement also said the mailing went to "potential supporters across the spectrum."
posted by cashman at 5:07 PM on September 14, 2008
and found guilty, but McCain wins, he could just pardon her
You, jamstigator, apparently ignore the savvy of The McCain. He's been burdened with this garbage. Burdened. She represents the class of people that the real McCain's would instruct their help to deal with. The toilet's broken? Tell Manolo to find someone to take care of it. She's an albatross around his neck. Socially and politically. At the first [politcally expedient] chance, he'll lose her. Can you imagine the Palins parking their hooped-up pickup truck in front of Cindy's condo[s]? Pahleese.
Biden brings very little to the table, aside from whitey looking over Baracks' shoulder, but just how much trash can the real GOP endure before it becomes too embarassing?
Oh, and as far as fencing is concerned, don't count on it. American businesses cannot survive without the cheap labor. That. Is. A. Fact. Is your so-called natiopnal tongue that important to you, hausfrau? Try asking Germany, France, Italy, The UK and Spain about cheap, foreign labor and how to make them feel comfortable enough at home to achieve relative production output at work. No habla now, honky? Yeah. No.
posted by jsavimbi at 5:10 PM on September 14, 2008
You, jamstigator, apparently ignore the savvy of The McCain. He's been burdened with this garbage. Burdened. She represents the class of people that the real McCain's would instruct their help to deal with. The toilet's broken? Tell Manolo to find someone to take care of it. She's an albatross around his neck. Socially and politically. At the first [politcally expedient] chance, he'll lose her. Can you imagine the Palins parking their hooped-up pickup truck in front of Cindy's condo[s]? Pahleese.
Biden brings very little to the table, aside from whitey looking over Baracks' shoulder, but just how much trash can the real GOP endure before it becomes too embarassing?
Oh, and as far as fencing is concerned, don't count on it. American businesses cannot survive without the cheap labor. That. Is. A. Fact. Is your so-called natiopnal tongue that important to you, hausfrau? Try asking Germany, France, Italy, The UK and Spain about cheap, foreign labor and how to make them feel comfortable enough at home to achieve relative production output at work. No habla now, honky? Yeah. No.
posted by jsavimbi at 5:10 PM on September 14, 2008
but somehow suggesting that respectable media asked for a paternity test is ridiculous?
Again, the reason it's ridiculous is because "paternity" means "fatherhood". Look, the person who made the claim is a notorious liar, who's been spouting pure bullshit to for weeks. Because he's such a liar, what he says can be discounted, and thus there is zero total evidence that anyone in the MSM was asking for any kind of parenthood testing on Trigg, paternity or maternity.
posted by delmoi at 5:16 PM on September 14, 2008
Again, the reason it's ridiculous is because "paternity" means "fatherhood". Look, the person who made the claim is a notorious liar, who's been spouting pure bullshit to for weeks. Because he's such a liar, what he says can be discounted, and thus there is zero total evidence that anyone in the MSM was asking for any kind of parenthood testing on Trigg, paternity or maternity.
Well, a compilation of data from numerous polls actually shows the gap closing at the time of this posting. Looks like the bloom is off the rose.I think you mean the lipstick is coming off the pig.
posted by delmoi at 5:16 PM on September 14, 2008
The Spalding Group, the official Republican store, is pushing 'Girl Power' in their Sarah line.
posted by geekyguy at 5:18 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by geekyguy at 5:18 PM on September 14, 2008
It's a big sign that reads "LURK MOAR."
posted by stet at 5:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by stet at 5:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
2. This is the more important strike, and the one that we're helping along: McCain has taken over every news cycle for the past two weeks, which is deadly to Obama. When Obama is on the news, it always helps, because he's so demonstrably the better candidate in these times.
That doesn't really make too much sense. There had been some polls out showing people were "sick" of hearing about Obama. Overexposure isn't that great if people get tired of you.
And also, the elections are not won or lost on the basis of news cycles. If they were, Hillary Clinton would be the nominee today. She essentially lost the Nomination after the Texas and Ohio primaries (if not Wisconson), yet she continued to drive the news cycles week after week month after month until her final defeat.
Winning news cycles is not the same as winning elections. The media treats the election like a game of entertaining them, but that's not actually how it works. Get out the vote, voter outreach, etc are what's going to do it.
posted by delmoi at 5:28 PM on September 14, 2008
That doesn't really make too much sense. There had been some polls out showing people were "sick" of hearing about Obama. Overexposure isn't that great if people get tired of you.
And also, the elections are not won or lost on the basis of news cycles. If they were, Hillary Clinton would be the nominee today. She essentially lost the Nomination after the Texas and Ohio primaries (if not Wisconson), yet she continued to drive the news cycles week after week month after month until her final defeat.
Winning news cycles is not the same as winning elections. The media treats the election like a game of entertaining them, but that's not actually how it works. Get out the vote, voter outreach, etc are what's going to do it.
posted by delmoi at 5:28 PM on September 14, 2008
More attempts by Republicans to block voters. Orlando Sentinel:
Here we go again, with Republican election officials making decisions that disproportionately will affect Democratic voters in a crucial election now rated as a tossup in the polls.Miami Herald
Why is there a need to suddenly throw this in the works at the last minute?
The verification law, commonly called "no match, no vote," first was approved by the Legislature in 2005.
...
this week, the Florida Department of State suddenly announced it will begin enforcing the law. This comes as we face an Oct. 6 registration deadline for the November election.
I don't believe this is some evil plot. But I do believe it looks bad with newly registered Democrats -- many of them minorities -- far outnumbering Republicans in this voter-registration cycle.
And if past elections are any indication, an even larger crush of registrations is expected in the weeks leading up to the deadline.
So why pick now to begin enforcing this law?
...
Maybe I've lived in Florida too long to believe this will work.
Those voters who aren't contacted in time or don't see the letter will show up to vote only to be given a "provisional" ballot. To make it count, they will have two days to get to their county elections office and show identification.
Of course, low-income people with no transportation might be at a disadvantage here.
People need time to adjust to a law like this. And right this minute is not the right time.
Voters whose information doesn't match the databases may still show up to vote on Election Day, but they will be given a provisional ballot. Their vote will then be counted only if they verify their identity by showing a valid idenification card, a social security care or a Florida driver's license to election officials within two days of casting the vote.posted by cashman at 5:32 PM on September 14, 2008
Charles Lichtman, a Fort Lauderdale attorney who's heading the Democrats' Election Day statewide legal team, said attorneys will be available at polling stations to fight for voters whose names don't appear on the registration rolls.
''Florida voters don't want to show up at the polls and be told you can't vote a regular ballot or you can't vote because of a crazy technicality,'' he said.
Metatalk is this place. You need to either chill out in here (no more hyper-responsive taking-on-all-comers comment sprees in this thread, period) or if you have a problem with that you need to take it up over there.
posted by cortex at 5:37 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by cortex at 5:37 PM on September 14, 2008
McCain Handbook v 1.0 (c. July 2000):
1. A noun. A verb. POW.
McCain Handbook v 2.0 (c. September 2008):
1. A noun. A verb. Sexism.
2. If #1 fails, try a noun, a verb, and POW.
posted by scblackman at 5:51 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
1. A noun. A verb. POW.
McCain Handbook v 2.0 (c. September 2008):
1. A noun. A verb. Sexism.
2. If #1 fails, try a noun, a verb, and POW.
posted by scblackman at 5:51 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
A round-up of articles/editorials (19 in all) from the past few days calling out McCain on his outright lying in this campaign: Lies.
posted by ericb at 5:57 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by ericb at 5:57 PM on September 14, 2008
cortexv - What exactly is it that you have a problem with? That I disagree with one sided half arguments?
That I pose legitimate and perhaps uncomfortable questions and point out when someone refuses to answer and starts name calling and attacking my character without basis? I didn’t realize this was an Obama only bash a conservative rally.
Are you inviting me to leave the discussion because you don’t like what I have said, you don't appreciate having flaws in an argument pointed out or because you just don’t want to hear a different opinion?
I did not realize when I signed up that it was required that one leg be shorter than the other.
posted by MapGuy at 6:00 PM on September 14, 2008
That I pose legitimate and perhaps uncomfortable questions and point out when someone refuses to answer and starts name calling and attacking my character without basis? I didn’t realize this was an Obama only bash a conservative rally.
Are you inviting me to leave the discussion because you don’t like what I have said, you don't appreciate having flaws in an argument pointed out or because you just don’t want to hear a different opinion?
I did not realize when I signed up that it was required that one leg be shorter than the other.
posted by MapGuy at 6:00 PM on September 14, 2008
MapGuy, I'm inviting you to take what is increasingly an argument about your behavior, not your views, to the part of the site where that sort of thing is allowed.
I don't care about your politics and I'm gladder than you might believe to have a mix of voices on the site, but your behavior in here earlier was manic to the point of producing more noise and distraction than substance.
If you have a problem with this, take it up over there. We've already had to delete some comments from this thread, from you and from people responding to you, and I'm pretty much done dealing with that. If you keep with the shit-stirring behavior over in here, yes, you will get a timeout, and it hasn't got a thing to do with Obama or McCain. So chill out or take it to metatalk, but enough with the antagonistic stuff in here.
posted by cortex at 6:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't care about your politics and I'm gladder than you might believe to have a mix of voices on the site, but your behavior in here earlier was manic to the point of producing more noise and distraction than substance.
If you have a problem with this, take it up over there. We've already had to delete some comments from this thread, from you and from people responding to you, and I'm pretty much done dealing with that. If you keep with the shit-stirring behavior over in here, yes, you will get a timeout, and it hasn't got a thing to do with Obama or McCain. So chill out or take it to metatalk, but enough with the antagonistic stuff in here.
posted by cortex at 6:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
kolonia
I spell it konolia.
And fwiw I guess I am a bit more travelled than Palin; I spent a couple of weeks in Thailand a decade ago. Not that it would make me more or less qualified for public office.
But I digress....this afternoon I had to go to a fish fry for a local Republican running for reelection as a county commissioner. While there much of the talk turned to Palin. Everyone was excited about her; no one, and I repeat, NO ONE even brought up the NY Times article. They did mention the ABC interviews, and they all thought she did well, and that Charlie Gibson "was mean to her."
And these are educated people, who surf the net, who watch the news, some of whom hold-or have held- public office, many of whom work in education.
If THEY weren't talking about it, I doubt very seriously the man or the woman on the street have even heard about it.
One man gleefully showed my husband a clipping from today's Sunday classified ads. The clipping was a want ad for paid Obama campaign workers. He chortled, "They have to PAY people to campaign for him!" The ad stated no experience needed. Apparently they will be paying people to hold up signs...during the primary, there were folks standing on streetcorners holding signs for Hillary and I remember assuming they were paid to do so (if it matters, they were African American.)
But Obama wasn't really mentioned much at all. For that matter, neither was McCain. It was all Palin, Palin, Palin.
posted by konolia at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I spell it konolia.
And fwiw I guess I am a bit more travelled than Palin; I spent a couple of weeks in Thailand a decade ago. Not that it would make me more or less qualified for public office.
But I digress....this afternoon I had to go to a fish fry for a local Republican running for reelection as a county commissioner. While there much of the talk turned to Palin. Everyone was excited about her; no one, and I repeat, NO ONE even brought up the NY Times article. They did mention the ABC interviews, and they all thought she did well, and that Charlie Gibson "was mean to her."
And these are educated people, who surf the net, who watch the news, some of whom hold-or have held- public office, many of whom work in education.
If THEY weren't talking about it, I doubt very seriously the man or the woman on the street have even heard about it.
One man gleefully showed my husband a clipping from today's Sunday classified ads. The clipping was a want ad for paid Obama campaign workers. He chortled, "They have to PAY people to campaign for him!" The ad stated no experience needed. Apparently they will be paying people to hold up signs...during the primary, there were folks standing on streetcorners holding signs for Hillary and I remember assuming they were paid to do so (if it matters, they were African American.)
But Obama wasn't really mentioned much at all. For that matter, neither was McCain. It was all Palin, Palin, Palin.
posted by konolia at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Breaking news: people at a Republican fish fry are Republicans
posted by neroli at 6:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [18 favorites]
posted by neroli at 6:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [18 favorites]
If THEY weren't talking about it, I doubt very seriously the man or the woman on the street have even heard about it.Everyone I've talked to thinks Palin is a nutbar, but I don't know any swing voters.
One man gleefully showed my husband a clipping from today's Sunday classified ads. The clipping was a want ad for paid Obama campaign workers. He chortled, "They have to PAY people to campaign for him!" The ad stated no experience needed. Apparently they will be paying people to hold up signsThey're paying people to go out and register voters in democratic heavy areas. I wouldn't be so flip if I were you.
posted by delmoi at 6:31 PM on September 14, 2008
I spent a couple of weeks in Thailand a decade ago.
Me too!! We're so alike. Was it Pattaya Beach? I hope so, because then we could share stories about soapys at Sabailand II (I went twice in a row!, different girls), Marilyn's A Go Go, eating street food and sitting on the can for a week straight afterwards. Ah, the good ol days.
Charlie Gibson, mean? Shame on him. He should stop doing interviews. He should stop doing interviews right now! I hate when that happens. It detracts the conversation from what really matters: nigg*rs getting paid to hold signs. How was the fish fry? Was the fish procured from an environmetally safe fishing ground, or just pulled out of the Sound? Heavens, those mercury levels. Trans fats? For shame.
So, back to Thailand. Any insight on their social/political/economic systems? How does the baht measure up to the other Tiger currencies? How many Thai nationals secretly consider themselves Chinese and collect Hummels? Do you know that Bhumibol and I were born at the same hospital? Coincidence? Perhaps, but I still love me some chicken Pad Kee Mao. Even though now it's all spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken. Fucking specials.
konolia, this is part of your education: do you know what kind of people carry newspaper clippings around with them to social gatherings? Yeah, those same people who forward chain letters. Avoid them.
posted by jsavimbi at 6:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Me too!! We're so alike. Was it Pattaya Beach? I hope so, because then we could share stories about soapys at Sabailand II (I went twice in a row!, different girls), Marilyn's A Go Go, eating street food and sitting on the can for a week straight afterwards. Ah, the good ol days.
Charlie Gibson, mean? Shame on him. He should stop doing interviews. He should stop doing interviews right now! I hate when that happens. It detracts the conversation from what really matters: nigg*rs getting paid to hold signs. How was the fish fry? Was the fish procured from an environmetally safe fishing ground, or just pulled out of the Sound? Heavens, those mercury levels. Trans fats? For shame.
So, back to Thailand. Any insight on their social/political/economic systems? How does the baht measure up to the other Tiger currencies? How many Thai nationals secretly consider themselves Chinese and collect Hummels? Do you know that Bhumibol and I were born at the same hospital? Coincidence? Perhaps, but I still love me some chicken Pad Kee Mao. Even though now it's all spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken. Fucking specials.
konolia, this is part of your education: do you know what kind of people carry newspaper clippings around with them to social gatherings? Yeah, those same people who forward chain letters. Avoid them.
posted by jsavimbi at 6:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
konolia: no one, and I repeat, NO ONE even brought up the NY Times article. They did mention the ABC interviews, and they all thought she did well, and that Charlie Gibson "was mean to her."
Okay... You've established that where you live, people you consider "educated people, who surf the net, who watch the news, some of whom hold-or have held- public office, many of whom work in education" don't pay any attention to the fearsome EM-ESS-EM.
Quelle surprise, as Jodie Foster might say.
Since you HAVE been exposed to the dreaded NYTimes article, would you care to comment on its contents? Or are you maintaining solidarity in ignorance?
konolia: It was all Palin, Palin, Palin.
Lovely. Are the buzzards already circling around McCain, McCain, McCain?
posted by dogrose at 6:43 PM on September 14, 2008
Okay... You've established that where you live, people you consider "educated people, who surf the net, who watch the news, some of whom hold-or have held- public office, many of whom work in education" don't pay any attention to the fearsome EM-ESS-EM.
Quelle surprise, as Jodie Foster might say.
Since you HAVE been exposed to the dreaded NYTimes article, would you care to comment on its contents? Or are you maintaining solidarity in ignorance?
konolia: It was all Palin, Palin, Palin.
Lovely. Are the buzzards already circling around McCain, McCain, McCain?
posted by dogrose at 6:43 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, delmoi, my husband has been going out for free and registering voters at the local gun shows for years.
Lots of churches hold voter registration drives-again, by volunteers-before every election.
Oh, I see-I have the ad in front of me-it's Move On.Org.
BTW, if you are registering voters, it's a felony if you refuse to allow them to register for the party of their choice. MoveOn.org can certainly pay folks to register voters, but they cannot refuse to allow those voters to register Republican if they so choose.
(Which of course is why my husband always does voter registration at gun shows. )
posted by konolia at 6:45 PM on September 14, 2008
Lots of churches hold voter registration drives-again, by volunteers-before every election.
Oh, I see-I have the ad in front of me-it's Move On.Org.
BTW, if you are registering voters, it's a felony if you refuse to allow them to register for the party of their choice. MoveOn.org can certainly pay folks to register voters, but they cannot refuse to allow those voters to register Republican if they so choose.
(Which of course is why my husband always does voter registration at gun shows. )
posted by konolia at 6:45 PM on September 14, 2008
It's hard to knock what we have in the US. Foreigners come here and are culture shocked into submission with our style of living, everthing from the availability of consumer goods to the level of customer service and the facilities that we build for ourselves. Not to mention that our McMansions, empty or not, far outclass any available new construction anywhere in the world. Hands down.
Um, you do know that Canada and Australia have just about the same material culture right? We have our McMansions, and grocery stores with aisles of selection, and the customer service. Not that these things actually contribute to a higher quality of life - of all the places I've lived, I thought living just outside a small city in England, three people in a tiny two bedroom house, was one of the nicest places to be.
posted by jb at 6:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Um, you do know that Canada and Australia have just about the same material culture right? We have our McMansions, and grocery stores with aisles of selection, and the customer service. Not that these things actually contribute to a higher quality of life - of all the places I've lived, I thought living just outside a small city in England, three people in a tiny two bedroom house, was one of the nicest places to be.
posted by jb at 6:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I do have to say--I really wish we had fish frys up here in Liberal Elitesville.
posted by neroli at 6:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by neroli at 6:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, if we're going to trade "I went to a fish fry" stories, my husband went to a barbecue today -- it wasn't full of people clucking over mean old Charlie Gibson or tsking about the nerve of black people holding up signs, but there were a few people there who were still "undecided" about who they should vote for. My husband and some colleagues talked with them and asked them questions and listened to what they had to say about the candidates, and then those people asked my husband and friends questions and listened to what they had to say about the candidates, and -- wouldn't you know it -- by the end of the conversation, those undecided folks had decided that actually they would be voting for Obama in November. One reason for this may be that those undecided people at the party weren't racist, rabid anti-choicers, or fucking insane.
posted by mothershock at 6:48 PM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by mothershock at 6:48 PM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
So, back to Thailand. Any insight on their social/political/economic systems? How does the baht measure up to the other Tiger currencies? How many Thai nationals secretly consider themselves Chinese and collect Hummels? Do you know that Bhumibol and I were born at the same hospital? Coincidence? Perhaps, but I still love me some chicken Pad Kee Mao. Even though now it's all spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken, spicy eggplant with chicken. Fucking specials.
I spent my time in Chiang Mai. I like Tom Kha Gai, myself. And of course, Pad Thai. Sticky rice is the greatest thing since sliced bread, tho. And that's a Northern Thai thing.
The Northern Thai are a different group, with a slightly different dialect, from the folks who live in Bangkok. There are also many different hill tribes in the area, and if you go far up enough, you can find yourself over the border in Burma if you aren't careful. Not a good idea.
All I really need to know about Thailand is this-do NOT insult the King. Aside from making people very very angry, you will go to jail. They love and revere their leader.
Yeah, much different from here.
posted by konolia at 6:51 PM on September 14, 2008
I spent my time in Chiang Mai. I like Tom Kha Gai, myself. And of course, Pad Thai. Sticky rice is the greatest thing since sliced bread, tho. And that's a Northern Thai thing.
The Northern Thai are a different group, with a slightly different dialect, from the folks who live in Bangkok. There are also many different hill tribes in the area, and if you go far up enough, you can find yourself over the border in Burma if you aren't careful. Not a good idea.
All I really need to know about Thailand is this-do NOT insult the King. Aside from making people very very angry, you will go to jail. They love and revere their leader.
Yeah, much different from here.
posted by konolia at 6:51 PM on September 14, 2008
weren't racist, rabid anti-choicers, or fucking insane.
We didn't have racists at our fish fry. There were actual real live black people there, for one thing. The only reason I mentioned the African American sign holders is -I am pretty sure those guys were voting for Obama when they were done. Even a few local Republican black people are choosing to publically support him. Which is certainly their right. Were there any local black people supporting Hillary? Possibly- but I didn't know any.
posted by konolia at 6:55 PM on September 14, 2008
We didn't have racists at our fish fry. There were actual real live black people there, for one thing. The only reason I mentioned the African American sign holders is -I am pretty sure those guys were voting for Obama when they were done. Even a few local Republican black people are choosing to publically support him. Which is certainly their right. Were there any local black people supporting Hillary? Possibly- but I didn't know any.
posted by konolia at 6:55 PM on September 14, 2008
BTW, if you are registering voters, it's a felony if you refuse to allow them to register for the party of their choice.
but no one suggested they were or that they should - nice passive/aggressive accusation based on nothing, konolia
posted by pyramid termite at 6:57 PM on September 14, 2008
but no one suggested they were or that they should - nice passive/aggressive accusation based on nothing, konolia
posted by pyramid termite at 6:57 PM on September 14, 2008
I think the USA needs a new border. There's a part of the country that really would be better off if they seceded. The rest of us would see it as hell, but it sure seems the people who actually live there are enjoying the fish fries. Maybe they ought to be allowed to get all up in your uterine, on that side of the border, they claim it's what they want. The sane people will flee to the authentic USA, the one that the forefathers dreamed about.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:58 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 6:58 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Um, you do know that Canada and Australia have just about the same material culture right? We have our McMansions, and grocery stores with aisles of selection, and the customer service.
Um, yeah, I realize that you have the same culture. After all, we're practically brethren, scots/irish/criminals + injuns/abos/moaris. Not a bad innings, eh? But I'd like to take this moment to point something out: while your government frets about replacing your old F-111's, we've already researched, developed, deployed and sold a whole new generation of aircraft. In large numbers. Unsurmountable numbers. Ourselves. Out of the blue. We project power as a matter of fact. You send us some of your gap year kids.
Here, in the US, the availability of ten different brands of toilet paper is taken as a mere formality, not a right, a wish or a pipe dream. And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Um, yeah, I realize that you have the same culture. After all, we're practically brethren, scots/irish/criminals + injuns/abos/moaris. Not a bad innings, eh? But I'd like to take this moment to point something out: while your government frets about replacing your old F-111's, we've already researched, developed, deployed and sold a whole new generation of aircraft. In large numbers. Unsurmountable numbers. Ourselves. Out of the blue. We project power as a matter of fact. You send us some of your gap year kids.
Here, in the US, the availability of ten different brands of toilet paper is taken as a mere formality, not a right, a wish or a pipe dream. And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
jsavimbi: please, please, please (and you're simply the most recent of MeFites to make me want to say this) do not treat Konolia like another frothing-at-the-mouth conservative. Disagree with her, sure, I know I do, but I haven't seen her perpetuating any slurs or bile in this thread, or any other for that matter. She was relating on-the-ground experience with people most of us aren't close with. Why do we feel the need to:
(a) Assume any racism on her part or the part of her friends (e.g. "nigg*rs being paid to hold signs")
(b) Assume that she necessarily agrees with all of the views she was reporting
(c) Assume that, because she holds a minority view here, that anything she says is thread-shitting?
She shares a different view. She is polite about it. Let's try to be as civil in our disagreement with her as she is with us, please?
(Konolia, I know that you're cool enough to not need me to have your back, but I've got it anyway. Also, please forgive us here. Most of us are simply desperate to make sure that the Bush policies stop as soon as possible, because the nation is aching from them, and we just tend to get a little sensitive about it.)
posted by Navelgazer at 7:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
(a) Assume any racism on her part or the part of her friends (e.g. "nigg*rs being paid to hold signs")
(b) Assume that she necessarily agrees with all of the views she was reporting
(c) Assume that, because she holds a minority view here, that anything she says is thread-shitting?
She shares a different view. She is polite about it. Let's try to be as civil in our disagreement with her as she is with us, please?
(Konolia, I know that you're cool enough to not need me to have your back, but I've got it anyway. Also, please forgive us here. Most of us are simply desperate to make sure that the Bush policies stop as soon as possible, because the nation is aching from them, and we just tend to get a little sensitive about it.)
posted by Navelgazer at 7:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
damn, this thread loads quickly.
posted by ryanrs at 7:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
We didn't have racists at our fish fry. There were actual real live black people there, for one thing.
Quite frankly, it's not a fish fry unless there are some black people there. White people too. Fried fish brings people together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Quite frankly, it's not a fish fry unless there are some black people there. White people too. Fried fish brings people together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
fff I think the USA needs a new border. . .
Jesusland.
posted by mlis at 7:29 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Jesusland.
posted by mlis at 7:29 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Navelgazer, I'm not treating konolia as anyone other that a mefite commenting in a thread. Personally, I think she's making everything up, and subsequently, I'm having fun with it. If she's not making it up, then gob bless her, at least she's entertaining. And I mean that.
konolia, if I'm being too, um straightforward in describing the true nature of todays republicans, please let me know. I have plenty of euphamisms that I can use to describe those other people who don't act/look/worship like us.
But Navelgazer, if this election isn't going to be about race, please tell me why The McCain has given up on any pretense at this point?
posted by jsavimbi at 7:31 PM on September 14, 2008
konolia, if I'm being too, um straightforward in describing the true nature of todays republicans, please let me know. I have plenty of euphamisms that I can use to describe those other people who don't act/look/worship like us.
But Navelgazer, if this election isn't going to be about race, please tell me why The McCain has given up on any pretense at this point?
posted by jsavimbi at 7:31 PM on September 14, 2008
I have never met anyone who showed me a newspaper clipping from their wallet. I would fear for my safety if I did.
posted by maxwelton at 7:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 7:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
ne man gleefully showed my husband a clipping from today's Sunday classified ads. The clipping was a want ad for paid Obama campaign workers. He chortled, "They have to PAY people to campaign for him!" The ad stated no experience needed. Apparently they will be paying people to hold up signs...during the primary, there were folks standing on streetcorners holding signs for Hillary and I remember assuming they were paid to do so (if it matters, they were African American.)
Are you suggesting that Democrats don't volunteer? I spent four hours today canvassing in a neighboring town, and tomorrow night will be making phone calls from the local HQ. When I show up to do these things, I meet two or three paid campaign staffers, and twenty or thirty volunteers, each time. It's not likely that people you see holding signs and canvassing are being paid. It is likely that the campaign office is paying staffers to keep the lights on and doors open twelve hours a day, run to the copy center, pay the bills, and greet the volunteers who continue to stream in - a boom of them in the last few weeks, beginning with the convention, and sharply increasing again at Palin's nomination.
We know that when you register for voters, they can register any way they choose; and when they can vote, they can vote any way they choose. When we canvass, we can see their party affiliation, and we can refer to their voting record in the last few elections. So we know that often, registered Repiblicans are supporting all or part of the Democratic ticket, and vice versa, and that unaffiliateds support one or both parties too. We believe that this is a good thing. As Democrats, we want people to make a fully informed vote and to exercise their right to vote. We believe in mobilizing, not suppressing, the vote; we want a high turnout. Republican strategy tends to depend upon limiting turnout, and about limiting registration activities to venues in which there is some form of social control - fraternal organizations, churches, etc. That way, the party faithful will turnout, but there's a low risk of bringing out independents or Democratic voters. On the opposite side, we'd rather talk to a wide variety of voters, make sure they are well-informed (in canvassing it's absolutely shocking how many people are ill-informed, completely ignorant of current events, as the people at your event were, konolia), make sure we have heard their views and they have heard ours, and urge people inclined to vote Democratic to get out to the polls.
I think it simply unconscionable to support a Republican ticket this year, and I'll say so directly, without a lot of games. The recent administration has taken us from a $300+-billion budget surplus to an average 400+-billion dollar annual spending deficit. The national debt is crushing. The Republican party has been taxing the hell out of us; they just haven't collected yet. That debt will fall on our children. Meanwhile, the dollar continues to devalue, we continue borrowing monthly from China and India and other trade partners, and at some point, our creditors are going to refuse our failing currency. The tax will be collected then, and it won't be a nice place to be any more. This isn't patriotism. No amount of right-wing ideology or talk about babies or guns has any bearing at all on this economic reality. What Obama is planning for a financial strategy will improve economic conditions for 60-80% of Americans - households making less than $250,000 are going to see tax relief. Don't think this message isn't opening eyes and minds when we talk to regular people. This isn't about moose and sexy glasses. It's about your children's and grandchildren's future, and about a country we'd like to restore to strength and a proud position among nations. Let's get off this shadow-dance of conservative blogs and authors. Of course the financial elite of the hard-right Republican party wants to continue the status quo - it's working very well for the country-club sector of fat cats and muckety-mucks. They're betting that Americans are too stupid to look hard at a dishonest, self-serving, inexperienced pol like Palin. Well, we're talking to them. And they're not quite that stupid.
posted by Miko at 7:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [44 favorites]
Are you suggesting that Democrats don't volunteer? I spent four hours today canvassing in a neighboring town, and tomorrow night will be making phone calls from the local HQ. When I show up to do these things, I meet two or three paid campaign staffers, and twenty or thirty volunteers, each time. It's not likely that people you see holding signs and canvassing are being paid. It is likely that the campaign office is paying staffers to keep the lights on and doors open twelve hours a day, run to the copy center, pay the bills, and greet the volunteers who continue to stream in - a boom of them in the last few weeks, beginning with the convention, and sharply increasing again at Palin's nomination.
We know that when you register for voters, they can register any way they choose; and when they can vote, they can vote any way they choose. When we canvass, we can see their party affiliation, and we can refer to their voting record in the last few elections. So we know that often, registered Repiblicans are supporting all or part of the Democratic ticket, and vice versa, and that unaffiliateds support one or both parties too. We believe that this is a good thing. As Democrats, we want people to make a fully informed vote and to exercise their right to vote. We believe in mobilizing, not suppressing, the vote; we want a high turnout. Republican strategy tends to depend upon limiting turnout, and about limiting registration activities to venues in which there is some form of social control - fraternal organizations, churches, etc. That way, the party faithful will turnout, but there's a low risk of bringing out independents or Democratic voters. On the opposite side, we'd rather talk to a wide variety of voters, make sure they are well-informed (in canvassing it's absolutely shocking how many people are ill-informed, completely ignorant of current events, as the people at your event were, konolia), make sure we have heard their views and they have heard ours, and urge people inclined to vote Democratic to get out to the polls.
I think it simply unconscionable to support a Republican ticket this year, and I'll say so directly, without a lot of games. The recent administration has taken us from a $300+-billion budget surplus to an average 400+-billion dollar annual spending deficit. The national debt is crushing. The Republican party has been taxing the hell out of us; they just haven't collected yet. That debt will fall on our children. Meanwhile, the dollar continues to devalue, we continue borrowing monthly from China and India and other trade partners, and at some point, our creditors are going to refuse our failing currency. The tax will be collected then, and it won't be a nice place to be any more. This isn't patriotism. No amount of right-wing ideology or talk about babies or guns has any bearing at all on this economic reality. What Obama is planning for a financial strategy will improve economic conditions for 60-80% of Americans - households making less than $250,000 are going to see tax relief. Don't think this message isn't opening eyes and minds when we talk to regular people. This isn't about moose and sexy glasses. It's about your children's and grandchildren's future, and about a country we'd like to restore to strength and a proud position among nations. Let's get off this shadow-dance of conservative blogs and authors. Of course the financial elite of the hard-right Republican party wants to continue the status quo - it's working very well for the country-club sector of fat cats and muckety-mucks. They're betting that Americans are too stupid to look hard at a dishonest, self-serving, inexperienced pol like Palin. Well, we're talking to them. And they're not quite that stupid.
posted by Miko at 7:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [44 favorites]
We might stop sniping at one another long enough to note that the game changer of the coming weeks is unfolding tonight, and will hit the financial markets hard tomorrow morning. It's being discussed upstairs, in fact.
At which point Palin-mania will begin to recede and the GOP may well be swamped by a wave of financial system events that will sow fear in the land and pain in the provinces like we have not yet seen in our generation.
I think the invisible hand is about to put "the issues" back at the center of this election, where they belong, no matter how much theater of the absurd bullshit the GOP throws up as chaff. It will hurt them badly that Palin is even more clueless about the economy than McCain. It will hurt them worse that they have spent two weeks trying to change the subject to the usual divisive culture war bullshit and seeing how much they can get away with before being caught in their own web of lies.
I suppose the Bushies could reel in Bin Laden in Waziristan (as they are apparently trying hard to do before election day) or nuke Iran and change the subject back. But we're about to look down and realize we've been running in place over nothingness for a while now in this big Road Runner flick we call the global economy.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
At which point Palin-mania will begin to recede and the GOP may well be swamped by a wave of financial system events that will sow fear in the land and pain in the provinces like we have not yet seen in our generation.
I think the invisible hand is about to put "the issues" back at the center of this election, where they belong, no matter how much theater of the absurd bullshit the GOP throws up as chaff. It will hurt them badly that Palin is even more clueless about the economy than McCain. It will hurt them worse that they have spent two weeks trying to change the subject to the usual divisive culture war bullshit and seeing how much they can get away with before being caught in their own web of lies.
I suppose the Bushies could reel in Bin Laden in Waziristan (as they are apparently trying hard to do before election day) or nuke Iran and change the subject back. But we're about to look down and realize we've been running in place over nothingness for a while now in this big Road Runner flick we call the global economy.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
And like McCain does not have paid campaign workers?
I'm with Maxwelton: anyone who pulls a newspaper clipping out of his wallet to make a point is in automatic Grampa Simpson/Lyndon Larouchie territory for me.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:41 PM on September 14, 2008
I'm with Maxwelton: anyone who pulls a newspaper clipping out of his wallet to make a point is in automatic Grampa Simpson/Lyndon Larouchie territory for me.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:41 PM on September 14, 2008
And his military experience would be....?
Crashing five jets with the last earning him a place at the Hanoi Hilton.
I'm a little late to this party here, but I feel like this needs to be said: Can we please stop with the attacks on McCain's military record?
I voted for Kerry in 2004, and I can remember how sickened I was by the Swift Boat advertisements. We were all pretty disgusted with the Republicans for attacking a decorated war veteran. How is saying "McCain couldn't even keep his plane in the sky" any more honorable than that?
He served--in combat--and spent time as a POW. We can't unwrite that narrative, nor should we. Can't we just acknowledge that and focus our energy on attacking the candidate's myriad legitimate shortcomings?
posted by DeWalt_Russ at 7:42 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Crashing five jets with the last earning him a place at the Hanoi Hilton.
I'm a little late to this party here, but I feel like this needs to be said: Can we please stop with the attacks on McCain's military record?
I voted for Kerry in 2004, and I can remember how sickened I was by the Swift Boat advertisements. We were all pretty disgusted with the Republicans for attacking a decorated war veteran. How is saying "McCain couldn't even keep his plane in the sky" any more honorable than that?
He served--in combat--and spent time as a POW. We can't unwrite that narrative, nor should we. Can't we just acknowledge that and focus our energy on attacking the candidate's myriad legitimate shortcomings?
posted by DeWalt_Russ at 7:42 PM on September 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
jsavimbi: if this election is to be about race, then it means that Obama is doing a piss-poor job controlling the message. White racists were going to vote republican anyway, I think, and it's inevitable that more of them will actually make it to the polls when the Democratic candidate is black. That doesn't mean that all conservatives or republicans are racist, however, and I think that such a generalization drags down those who make it.
As a very liberal person myself, I can't claim to understand why roughly half the country votes Republican, but I've known enough republicans very well to know that in most cases it isn't about race. Sometimes it is, but not nearly all the time.
I'm willing to bet that almost all vegans are liberal. I eat so much meat that I barely qualify as omnivorous. Would being liberal make me as good as vegan? I hope not. I love me some bacon.
If the Obama campaign can pull itself back into the news and let itself be heard again, this election will be about the economy, because it is at red-alert crisis levels like has never been seen at least in my lifetime. If it's about race then all of America is just that stupid, I guess, and we get what we deserve.
But it's not about race. It's about the economy, and Palin is just a side-show attraction that we all keep paying to see.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:43 PM on September 14, 2008
As a very liberal person myself, I can't claim to understand why roughly half the country votes Republican, but I've known enough republicans very well to know that in most cases it isn't about race. Sometimes it is, but not nearly all the time.
I'm willing to bet that almost all vegans are liberal. I eat so much meat that I barely qualify as omnivorous. Would being liberal make me as good as vegan? I hope not. I love me some bacon.
If the Obama campaign can pull itself back into the news and let itself be heard again, this election will be about the economy, because it is at red-alert crisis levels like has never been seen at least in my lifetime. If it's about race then all of America is just that stupid, I guess, and we get what we deserve.
But it's not about race. It's about the economy, and Palin is just a side-show attraction that we all keep paying to see.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:43 PM on September 14, 2008
They did mention the ABC interviews, and they all thought she did well, and that Charlie Gibson "was mean to her."
If Charlie Gibson is too mean for Palin, how do you think she'll handle Vladimir Putin?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:44 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
If Charlie Gibson is too mean for Palin, how do you think she'll handle Vladimir Putin?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:44 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
anyone who pulls a newspaper clipping out of his wallet to make a point is in automatic Grampa Simpson/Lyndon Larouchie territory for me.
Hey, have some sympathy! When you have to make it through the A section, the Week in Review section, the Opinion page, the Business & Finance section, the Health section, and the funny pages all the way to the want ads to find the one piece of information about the election that doesn't put your party in a negative light, well, you gotta use it.
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [23 favorites]
Hey, have some sympathy! When you have to make it through the A section, the Week in Review section, the Opinion page, the Business & Finance section, the Health section, and the funny pages all the way to the want ads to find the one piece of information about the election that doesn't put your party in a negative light, well, you gotta use it.
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [23 favorites]
You or your mother or sister or daughter or wife would be forced to bear her rapist's child under a Palin presidency.
Paging Dr. Goebbels. Paging Dr. Joseph Goebbels....
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread (and there's been a lot of dumb shit said in this thread).
posted by MikeMc at 7:50 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Paging Dr. Goebbels. Paging Dr. Joseph Goebbels....
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread (and there's been a lot of dumb shit said in this thread).
posted by MikeMc at 7:50 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Crashing five jets with the last earning him a place at the Hanoi Hilton.I'm a little late to this party here, but I feel like this needs to be said: Can we please stop with the attacks on McCain's military record?
One of those jets is the one where he purposefully flamed-out while warming up the jets, to freak out the pilot behind him, practical-joke style. Completely disallowed when on-deck, of course. No one expects a big gout of flame shooting across the deck before everyone's in go-mode.
Anyhoo, said flame-out set off the missiles on the jet behind him. All hell broke loose, with the ship catching fire and a whole bunch of fellow crew members killed. One helluva mishap, the kind of thing that would end a person's career. Practical jokes are great, but when you fuck it up, you usually lose your career. Especially when people die.
Well, one thing leads to another and here we are today, where you seem to say that McCain's military record should be kept off-the-paper, while I'm saying that perhaps it reveals something about the man, his common sense, his risk-taking, and his backing by powerful political forces.
It speaks to me of a President who will be controlled from behind, continuing down much the same path as we've seen from the office of the current President-in-name, not-in-presence. More of the same, what a good idea that would be. Foot, meet bullet.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:53 PM on September 14, 2008
I don't trust ANYONE RUNNING-not McCain/Palin, not Obama/Biden, re the economy.
NONE of them.
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance? Jimmy Carter had quite a lot to do with me deciding I didn't trust Democrats when it came to the White House.
posted by konolia at 7:58 PM on September 14, 2008
NONE of them.
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance? Jimmy Carter had quite a lot to do with me deciding I didn't trust Democrats when it came to the White House.
posted by konolia at 7:58 PM on September 14, 2008
FFF, do you have a citation on that flame-out story? I started googling to see what I could find and found the following:
No "Wet Start"
A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by "wet-starting" – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, the tail of McCain's plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain's plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in a diagram in Freeman's book (p. 281)
From "Sailors to the End," p. 281 Copyright 2002 by Gregory A. Freeman, used with permission.
Furthermore, a painstaking Navy investigation into the disaster concluded that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust.
Freeman (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane's system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane's internal power system. The voltage surged through five sequential safety devices designed to prevent just such a stray charge from reaching the rockets.
Unfortunately for McCain and the men who died, some safety precautions that could have prevented the electrical surge from igniting the rocket had been ignored or suspended in the wartime pressure to get planes launched quickly.
Freeman also has posted an item on his own Web site flatly stating that McCain was in no way responsible for the accident. "McCain was never suspected of causing the fire because investigators determined immediately that the rocket misfired from the other side of the flight deck," writes Freeman.
Update, Feb. 8: A former military pilot messaged us to point out an even more convincing reason why the "wet start" story must be false. The A-4 Skyhawk did not come equipped with an afterburner in the first place. We've confirmed that elsewhere. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a "Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A non-afterburning, turbojet engine." The manufacturer's description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as "One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine," with no mention of an afterburner.
posted by konolia at 8:05 PM on September 14, 2008
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread (and there's been a lot of dumb shit said in this thread).
posted by MikeMc at 7:50 PM on September 14
Read the link, hoss. Palin opposes abortion even in the case of incest or rape. She would appoint Supreme Court judges who agree. She would sign a bill that criminalized abortion even in those cases. And there you have it. McCain kicks the bucket faster than W. H. Harrison, Palin takes over, a few justices buy the farm, Palin appoints them solely on their opposition to Roe v. Wade, it gets overturned, and hey look at that coming out of the Republican Congress of 2010: a bill banning all abortions without exception. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
posted by MikeMc at 7:50 PM on September 14
Read the link, hoss. Palin opposes abortion even in the case of incest or rape. She would appoint Supreme Court judges who agree. She would sign a bill that criminalized abortion even in those cases. And there you have it. McCain kicks the bucket faster than W. H. Harrison, Palin takes over, a few justices buy the farm, Palin appoints them solely on their opposition to Roe v. Wade, it gets overturned, and hey look at that coming out of the Republican Congress of 2010: a bill banning all abortions without exception. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
But it's not about race.
Hi everyone, meet the new boss: he's black, hasn't put his time in and to be quite honest, thinks he knows better because of the educational opportunities that he somehow enjoyed yet we missed out on. You know, affirmative action and all. Oh, and once his office is refinished with the new paint job, he's going to bring in all of his black friends to help run things. Maybe some women too. Black ones. Competent or not, they're the new bosses, so get used to it. Oh, and don't forget you little muslim hats next week. The new boss likes them.
Navelgazer, brethren of the bacon, that is one pill that the average white male is going to have a very, very tough time swallowing. And even if modern economics, driven by wealthy white men, competent or not, have been down on majority white lower-middle/working class people in this country, it takes very little to stir up the racial animosity that lies very close to the surface.
You think it doesn't exist, that it's limited to certain areas of Dixie that need quarantine? Ok, peace be with you, but I know otherwise, and I'm framing this election from a racial point of view. The wasps simply cannot let go. And if I were one of them, I'd honestly find it hard to do as well.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:06 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hi everyone, meet the new boss: he's black, hasn't put his time in and to be quite honest, thinks he knows better because of the educational opportunities that he somehow enjoyed yet we missed out on. You know, affirmative action and all. Oh, and once his office is refinished with the new paint job, he's going to bring in all of his black friends to help run things. Maybe some women too. Black ones. Competent or not, they're the new bosses, so get used to it. Oh, and don't forget you little muslim hats next week. The new boss likes them.
Navelgazer, brethren of the bacon, that is one pill that the average white male is going to have a very, very tough time swallowing. And even if modern economics, driven by wealthy white men, competent or not, have been down on majority white lower-middle/working class people in this country, it takes very little to stir up the racial animosity that lies very close to the surface.
You think it doesn't exist, that it's limited to certain areas of Dixie that need quarantine? Ok, peace be with you, but I know otherwise, and I'm framing this election from a racial point of view. The wasps simply cannot let go. And if I were one of them, I'd honestly find it hard to do as well.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:06 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Charlie Gibson was mean to Hillary Clinton.
posted by Zambrano at 8:07 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Zambrano at 8:07 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain's Lying Has Gone Too Far, According To ... Karl Rove!
posted by homunculus at 8:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 8:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance? Jimmy Carter had quite a lot to do with me deciding I didn't trust Democrats when it came to the White House.
posted by konolia at 7:58 PM on September 14
Here you go. The huge budget surpluses and economic growth under Clinton should have changed your mind, as well. Democrats focus on long-term economic solutions and cut taxes for the poor and middle class. Republicans cut taxes for millionaires. Did you know that you and your husband would pay fewer taxes if Obama were elected? It's true. Here is a graph. The source of the data is the non-partisan Tax Policy Center.
Incidentally, konolia, you never answered when I asked a) how Sarah Palin will handle Vladimir Putin is Charlie Gibson is too "mean," or b) how you can imprison people based on their race without being racist. Looking forward to your response. Thank you.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:13 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by konolia at 7:58 PM on September 14
Here you go. The huge budget surpluses and economic growth under Clinton should have changed your mind, as well. Democrats focus on long-term economic solutions and cut taxes for the poor and middle class. Republicans cut taxes for millionaires. Did you know that you and your husband would pay fewer taxes if Obama were elected? It's true. Here is a graph. The source of the data is the non-partisan Tax Policy Center.
Incidentally, konolia, you never answered when I asked a) how Sarah Palin will handle Vladimir Putin is Charlie Gibson is too "mean," or b) how you can imprison people based on their race without being racist. Looking forward to your response. Thank you.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:13 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
One of those jets is the one where he purposefully flamed-out while warming up the jets, to freak out the pilot behind him, practical-joke style. Completely disallowed when on-deck, of course. No one expects a big gout of flame shooting across the deck before everyone's in go-mode.
Listen, I'm all for finding McCain to be somehow responsible for the death of 134 sailors aboard the USS Forrestal, and I know that the McCain wet-start story has some traction, but I think it's the sort of thing we need to be pretty damn certain of before we start discussing it as fact. We are not swift boaters.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [8 favorites]
Listen, I'm all for finding McCain to be somehow responsible for the death of 134 sailors aboard the USS Forrestal, and I know that the McCain wet-start story has some traction, but I think it's the sort of thing we need to be pretty damn certain of before we start discussing it as fact. We are not swift boaters.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [8 favorites]
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance? Jimmy Carter had quite a lot to do with me deciding I didn't trust Democrats when it came to the White House.
That was more than thirty years ago. That's like me saying Nixon is the reason I don't trust Republicans.
Obama doesn't need to be "better than Carter." Carter and his world are long, long gone. He needs to be better than his opponent, McCain, and he is, by far. One of those two choices is going to send us into a downward economic spiral, extend the war indefinitely, do nothing to improve the health care system, and pack the Supreme Court with conservative judges, ending the debate and discussion that is a key force in the nation's judicial equilibrium. The other is going to address, not ignore, the fact that 47 million adult Americans have no health insurance or regular medical care; continue to reduce American activity in Iraq and work toward self-governance on an expedited timetable; appoint judges that will restore a balanced point of view to the Court, and provide tax relief and limits on corporate welfare so that more wealth is freed up to move through the country once again. McCain's far too in the pocket of lobbyists to handle the economy fairly; his personal wealth, many homes, and lifetime of moneyed political connections have taken him far, far away from the frustrations, concerns, and difficulties of regular people struggling to buy first houses, educate kids, take care of families. He's not going to improve conditions for the middle and working classes; we're not paying his bills! His interest lies in protecting the corporate and financial elite, and he shows no signs of thinking differently. He's a far worse choice, at this moment in American history, than a more fiscally conservative, more thoughtful, and less bought-and-paid-for constitutional lawyer who's motivated centrally by a desire for public service and a sense of personal imperative - we're at a crossroads, and things have to change, or the nation and its economy are going right down the drain.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [12 favorites]
That was more than thirty years ago. That's like me saying Nixon is the reason I don't trust Republicans.
Obama doesn't need to be "better than Carter." Carter and his world are long, long gone. He needs to be better than his opponent, McCain, and he is, by far. One of those two choices is going to send us into a downward economic spiral, extend the war indefinitely, do nothing to improve the health care system, and pack the Supreme Court with conservative judges, ending the debate and discussion that is a key force in the nation's judicial equilibrium. The other is going to address, not ignore, the fact that 47 million adult Americans have no health insurance or regular medical care; continue to reduce American activity in Iraq and work toward self-governance on an expedited timetable; appoint judges that will restore a balanced point of view to the Court, and provide tax relief and limits on corporate welfare so that more wealth is freed up to move through the country once again. McCain's far too in the pocket of lobbyists to handle the economy fairly; his personal wealth, many homes, and lifetime of moneyed political connections have taken him far, far away from the frustrations, concerns, and difficulties of regular people struggling to buy first houses, educate kids, take care of families. He's not going to improve conditions for the middle and working classes; we're not paying his bills! His interest lies in protecting the corporate and financial elite, and he shows no signs of thinking differently. He's a far worse choice, at this moment in American history, than a more fiscally conservative, more thoughtful, and less bought-and-paid-for constitutional lawyer who's motivated centrally by a desire for public service and a sense of personal imperative - we're at a crossroads, and things have to change, or the nation and its economy are going right down the drain.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [12 favorites]
One of those jets is the one where he purposefully flamed-out while warming up the jets, to freak out the pilot behind him, practical-joke style. Completely disallowed when on-deck, of course. No one expects a big gout of flame shooting across the deck before everyone's in go-mode.
I call bullshit on this. Please look at the flight deck film recorded at the time of the incident. McCain's aircraft was parked side by side to where the accident happened, not in front. I served on two carriers, not as a sailor mind you, and if there's one thing I can say is that the Navy takes care of its own. For McCain to be breathing today would mean that the Forrestal Fire was no fault of his. Had it been, he would've never made it back home, regardless of the ship. Unlucky and incompetent? Sure. Criminally negligent? I doubt that.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:19 PM on September 14, 2008
I call bullshit on this. Please look at the flight deck film recorded at the time of the incident. McCain's aircraft was parked side by side to where the accident happened, not in front. I served on two carriers, not as a sailor mind you, and if there's one thing I can say is that the Navy takes care of its own. For McCain to be breathing today would mean that the Forrestal Fire was no fault of his. Had it been, he would've never made it back home, regardless of the ship. Unlucky and incompetent? Sure. Criminally negligent? I doubt that.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:19 PM on September 14, 2008
Katha Pollitt: Lipstick on a Wing Nut
posted by muckster at 8:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by muckster at 8:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Palin energizes right-wing republicans. Her presence has encouraged republicans who were considering sitting this one out to vote for McCain.
But that's not going to be enough this time. Palin brings no new voters to the table. Her impact on the polls is because the enthusiasm republicans show for her has an outsize effect on likely voter screens which are ver susceptible to these effects. These polls are often working off of 2004 party affiliation data--something that has changed siginificantly in the Democrats favor.
In essence, Palin appeals to Republicans because they like to defend her against people they don't like--they are voting for emotional effects. Just go over to the NRO's the Corner--they have a whole cottage industry going on over there defending her.
The polling data I'm seeing shows Palin's impact is disproportionately positive amongst white males, a group that hasn't gone as a majority for Democrats since 1964. She's not making inroads on Obama supporters--shes getting right-wingers to support McCain. Not the same thing as winning the middle--which is what this election is all about.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
But that's not going to be enough this time. Palin brings no new voters to the table. Her impact on the polls is because the enthusiasm republicans show for her has an outsize effect on likely voter screens which are ver susceptible to these effects. These polls are often working off of 2004 party affiliation data--something that has changed siginificantly in the Democrats favor.
In essence, Palin appeals to Republicans because they like to defend her against people they don't like--they are voting for emotional effects. Just go over to the NRO's the Corner--they have a whole cottage industry going on over there defending her.
The polling data I'm seeing shows Palin's impact is disproportionately positive amongst white males, a group that hasn't gone as a majority for Democrats since 1964. She's not making inroads on Obama supporters--shes getting right-wingers to support McCain. Not the same thing as winning the middle--which is what this election is all about.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
What was wrong with Carter? I mean, he brokered peace in the Middle East and tried to wean us off our dependence on foreign oil. He was a good man, he was an honorable man, and he was a good Christian. Today he builds houses for the poor. Sure, the economy was bad then, but Republicans love to tell us that the president has nothing to do with the economy -- at least, that's what they tell us when the economy is bad.
And Carter made you not trust Democrats in the White House, but the succession of lies, cronyism, raiding the public coffers, mismanaging crises, and general incompetence and boobery has you convinced that Republicans are trustworthy? I mean, come on, Konolia. Next to George W Bush, Carter was St. Peter.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [19 favorites]
And Carter made you not trust Democrats in the White House, but the succession of lies, cronyism, raiding the public coffers, mismanaging crises, and general incompetence and boobery has you convinced that Republicans are trustworthy? I mean, come on, Konolia. Next to George W Bush, Carter was St. Peter.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [19 favorites]
Jimmy Carter had quite a lot to do with me deciding I didn't trust Democrats when it came to the White House.
Can you explain that more? What did Carter do or not do that turned you off to Democrats?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 PM on September 14, 2008
Can you explain that more? What did Carter do or not do that turned you off to Democrats?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 PM on September 14, 2008
The wasps simply cannot let go. And if I were one of them, I'd honestly find it hard to do as well.
I think it's pretty easy for people to use an imagined Other racist as an excuse. Sure, white males over a certain age are a noticeable voting bloc. Sure, some racists will not vote, or will vote McCain, or will write in, rather than vote Obama. But they are not a majority and not a monolithic bloc. The only vote you have control over is your own; don't fret about how someone else somewhere might vote. Instead, move on, and find three or four new voters who are ready to step up and take on a role in the democracy. White racists are scary in the imagining, but the truth is, they won't be terribly hard to outnumber. If each of us concentrates on our own sphere of influence, and if we keep our eye on the fact that whatever discomfort you might have with a black person is really not worth selling out your country's and your grandchildren's future for, there's no reason to fear that sector. Their power is waning.
posted by Miko at 8:24 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think it's pretty easy for people to use an imagined Other racist as an excuse. Sure, white males over a certain age are a noticeable voting bloc. Sure, some racists will not vote, or will vote McCain, or will write in, rather than vote Obama. But they are not a majority and not a monolithic bloc. The only vote you have control over is your own; don't fret about how someone else somewhere might vote. Instead, move on, and find three or four new voters who are ready to step up and take on a role in the democracy. White racists are scary in the imagining, but the truth is, they won't be terribly hard to outnumber. If each of us concentrates on our own sphere of influence, and if we keep our eye on the fact that whatever discomfort you might have with a black person is really not worth selling out your country's and your grandchildren's future for, there's no reason to fear that sector. Their power is waning.
posted by Miko at 8:24 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
jsavimbi, I am a white anglo-saxon protestant male, and I've lived all over this land, in areas both ultra-conservative (Houston, Tx.; Bartlesville, Ok.) ultra-liberal (NYC, DC) and extraordinarily divided (Crested Butte, Co.; New Orleans, La.) and have never met anyone, WASP or otherwise, whose vote I can imagine being swayed in the way you describe. I'm not saying that thought isn't out there, but I can only imagine it in the Ditto-heads and the like who are looking for other justifications for voting against Obama and have now found that in Palin.
I know racism exists, but I also know that almost everyone I've met in my life hates it, even as they see some subconscious aspect of it in themselves sometimes, and I think (hope?) that a lot of people see Obama's race more as a positive step forward for America, if anything. I know anecdotally that in 2004, the first time my Oil-Baron (kind of) father voted in the democratic primaries, he voted for Sharpton, because he thought Sharpton was the most honest and forceful of the candidates.
Personally, I think most people don't consider Obama's race much at all anymore, as the "story" is so played out by this point. When Tiger Woods became the greatest golfer of our time, the story of "the black golfer" was a thing for a while, and then everyone stopped caring and he just became "Tiger Woods, the best golfer." Will Smith similarly stopped being the "black top box office draw" and simply "the most bankable actor in Hollywood." Denzel Washington stopped being "The first black Best Actor winner" and became "Denzel, the great actor."
The experience issue, by the way, is a canard. Nobody really gives a shit about it except for the sake of argument and confirmation bias. The next seven weeks are about who actually seems like they can be president. The person who holds the news cycles (without making a major blunder) will win the day in this regard. Also, the economy, but Obama's got that issue locked down. We just need people to listen to it.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I know racism exists, but I also know that almost everyone I've met in my life hates it, even as they see some subconscious aspect of it in themselves sometimes, and I think (hope?) that a lot of people see Obama's race more as a positive step forward for America, if anything. I know anecdotally that in 2004, the first time my Oil-Baron (kind of) father voted in the democratic primaries, he voted for Sharpton, because he thought Sharpton was the most honest and forceful of the candidates.
Personally, I think most people don't consider Obama's race much at all anymore, as the "story" is so played out by this point. When Tiger Woods became the greatest golfer of our time, the story of "the black golfer" was a thing for a while, and then everyone stopped caring and he just became "Tiger Woods, the best golfer." Will Smith similarly stopped being the "black top box office draw" and simply "the most bankable actor in Hollywood." Denzel Washington stopped being "The first black Best Actor winner" and became "Denzel, the great actor."
The experience issue, by the way, is a canard. Nobody really gives a shit about it except for the sake of argument and confirmation bias. The next seven weeks are about who actually seems like they can be president. The person who holds the news cycles (without making a major blunder) will win the day in this regard. Also, the economy, but Obama's got that issue locked down. We just need people to listen to it.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
how Sarah Palin will handle Vladimir Putin is Charlie Gibson is too "mean,
Sarah handled Charlie just fine; I doubt she'd have trouble with Putin. I was referencing how OBSERVERS saw the interview.
What was wrong with Carter? I mean, he brokered peace in the Middle East and tried to wean us off our dependence on foreign oil. He was a good man, he was an honorable man, and he was a good Christian. Today he builds houses for the poor. Sure, the economy was bad then, but Republicans love to tell us that the president has nothing to do with the economy -- at least, that's what they tell us when the economy is bad.
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him. I lived thru his administration. Inflation was horrible. The economy was horrible. Jobs were hard to find. And do you remember the Iranian hostage crisis?
I am truly glad he works for Habitat for Humanity; that is honorable work. Let's leave it at that.
posted by konolia at 8:31 PM on September 14, 2008
Sarah handled Charlie just fine; I doubt she'd have trouble with Putin. I was referencing how OBSERVERS saw the interview.
What was wrong with Carter? I mean, he brokered peace in the Middle East and tried to wean us off our dependence on foreign oil. He was a good man, he was an honorable man, and he was a good Christian. Today he builds houses for the poor. Sure, the economy was bad then, but Republicans love to tell us that the president has nothing to do with the economy -- at least, that's what they tell us when the economy is bad.
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him. I lived thru his administration. Inflation was horrible. The economy was horrible. Jobs were hard to find. And do you remember the Iranian hostage crisis?
I am truly glad he works for Habitat for Humanity; that is honorable work. Let's leave it at that.
posted by konolia at 8:31 PM on September 14, 2008
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Gee, maybe because the scenario you just outlined is a tad more complex than your original "OMFG Palin is gunna make yur momz a baby factory for rapists!111!1" assertion. A lot of shit has to happen for that to come to pass but please, don't let reality stand in the way of your fear mongering. I've heard that claim made, in one form or another, about every GOP presidential candidate for the last 20 years. For some reason the term "crying wolf" comes to mind...
posted by MikeMc at 8:32 PM on September 14, 2008
Gee, maybe because the scenario you just outlined is a tad more complex than your original "OMFG Palin is gunna make yur momz a baby factory for rapists!111!1" assertion. A lot of shit has to happen for that to come to pass but please, don't let reality stand in the way of your fear mongering. I've heard that claim made, in one form or another, about every GOP presidential candidate for the last 20 years. For some reason the term "crying wolf" comes to mind...
posted by MikeMc at 8:32 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, it's especially easy to imagine the other as racist when they developed the Southern Strategy.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:33 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:33 PM on September 14, 2008
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him. I lived thru his administration. Inflation was horrible. The economy was horrible. Jobs were hard to find. And do you remember the Iranian hostage crisis?
ANd that's how politics goes as one grows older. If we replaced the word "ineffectual" with "incompetent" and "Iran Hostage Crisis" with "War on Terror" or "Hurricane Katrina Disaster" we'd get a pretty good idea of what I think of Bush and why I'll never likely vote for a Republican in my life.
I almost did with Bloomberg a couple years ago in New York. He was the better candidate and I knew it. I still couldn't bring myself to do it, though, so instead I voted for Macmillan, of "The Rent is Too Damn High" party. Because you know what? The rent is too damn high.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:37 PM on September 14, 2008
ANd that's how politics goes as one grows older. If we replaced the word "ineffectual" with "incompetent" and "Iran Hostage Crisis" with "War on Terror" or "Hurricane Katrina Disaster" we'd get a pretty good idea of what I think of Bush and why I'll never likely vote for a Republican in my life.
I almost did with Bloomberg a couple years ago in New York. He was the better candidate and I knew it. I still couldn't bring myself to do it, though, so instead I voted for Macmillan, of "The Rent is Too Damn High" party. Because you know what? The rent is too damn high.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:37 PM on September 14, 2008
Can someone explain to a foreigner why it is that voter turnout is so low? This thread is great for seeing passionate people arguing for their sides, but I have a hard time understanding the mind set of the people who just don't vote. Do they honestly not care one way or the other? Do they not realise how much of an effect this election will have? I'm genuinely curious to know what's going on there.
posted by twirlypen at 8:37 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by twirlypen at 8:37 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him. I lived thru his administration. Inflation was horrible. The economy was horrible. Jobs were hard to find. And do you remember the Iranian hostage crisis?
And what specifically did he do to cause the economic problems? Carter is the bugaboo of the right -- they point to him like we're all supposed to agree he was horrible, but, when pressed, all discuss the economy under him. So let me know how it's his fault.
Yes, the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I remember. I was alive then too. And considering how Reagen had no trouble playing fast and loose with the law and with other people's lives, I'm inclined to believe the October Surprise was his doing. Even if not, I'll take a bungled hostage crisis over an illegal international war built on lies any day.
The right has smeared and tarnished a good man, an honest broker, and a man who dedicated his life to the betterment of those around him, and, had we followed Carter's energy plan, instead of scrapping it under Reagen, we'd be in a better world. So I don't feel like leaving it at that.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
And what specifically did he do to cause the economic problems? Carter is the bugaboo of the right -- they point to him like we're all supposed to agree he was horrible, but, when pressed, all discuss the economy under him. So let me know how it's his fault.
Yes, the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I remember. I was alive then too. And considering how Reagen had no trouble playing fast and loose with the law and with other people's lives, I'm inclined to believe the October Surprise was his doing. Even if not, I'll take a bungled hostage crisis over an illegal international war built on lies any day.
The right has smeared and tarnished a good man, an honest broker, and a man who dedicated his life to the betterment of those around him, and, had we followed Carter's energy plan, instead of scrapping it under Reagen, we'd be in a better world. So I don't feel like leaving it at that.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:38 PM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
Reagan, rather.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:39 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:39 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, it's especially easy to imagine the other as racist when they developed the Southern Strategy.
Like I said, I don't doubt that racists exist and can (and will) be exploited politically. What I doubt is that the existence of racists, in this election, is going to spell failure for the Obama campaign. His strategy has taken the Republican one into account, and he's already registered (and turned out) large numbers of new voters who support him, which I believe will negate the effect of racism on the smallish number of white male racist voters who might have otherwise considered a Democratic ticket. It's a bugaboo, but not one to fear. What I don't like to see is the concern about other racist Democratic voters being used to provide cover for people who are themselves racist but would rather not admit it. So I like to try to get people focused on whether they themselves have a prejudice that would prevent them from supporting the ticket. If they don't, and if they can find a couple of other family members or friends that don't have enough prejudice, or can overcome the prejudice, the racism factor can be neutralized. If it continues to be raised as an objection, my suspicion is that the person him or herself is harboring some racist fears.
posted by Miko at 8:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Like I said, I don't doubt that racists exist and can (and will) be exploited politically. What I doubt is that the existence of racists, in this election, is going to spell failure for the Obama campaign. His strategy has taken the Republican one into account, and he's already registered (and turned out) large numbers of new voters who support him, which I believe will negate the effect of racism on the smallish number of white male racist voters who might have otherwise considered a Democratic ticket. It's a bugaboo, but not one to fear. What I don't like to see is the concern about other racist Democratic voters being used to provide cover for people who are themselves racist but would rather not admit it. So I like to try to get people focused on whether they themselves have a prejudice that would prevent them from supporting the ticket. If they don't, and if they can find a couple of other family members or friends that don't have enough prejudice, or can overcome the prejudice, the racism factor can be neutralized. If it continues to be raised as an objection, my suspicion is that the person him or herself is harboring some racist fears.
posted by Miko at 8:46 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, Astro Zombie, the problem is that I think Obama won't do any good for the economy either. I think he won't be ABLE to do the things he is promising. I think in the effort to do them he will wind up damaging the economy more, not less.
I think Obama is a much NICER man than Jimmy Carter is, for what it's worth. He's definitely a nicer man than McCain. But that quality in itself does not a good President make.
posted by konolia at 8:48 PM on September 14, 2008
I think Obama is a much NICER man than Jimmy Carter is, for what it's worth. He's definitely a nicer man than McCain. But that quality in itself does not a good President make.
posted by konolia at 8:48 PM on September 14, 2008
1400+ were estimated in attendance at this anti-Palin rally on the same day as Palin's kick-off, both in Anchorage.
Bah. They're just a bunch of socialist baby-killing maggots.
posted by homunculus at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2008
Bah. They're just a bunch of socialist baby-killing maggots.
posted by homunculus at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2008
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him.
So you're admitting that you base your politics on whether or not you feel chummy around a candidate, and not on the policies? I don't like the guy I voted for up here in Canadia, but his policies were a heck of a lot more sound than his opponent's.
If the U.S. goes completely into the shitter because voters vote for "the guy I like" instead of "the guy with the right angle," well, there isn't going to be a lot of sympathy floating around.
posted by illiad at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2008
So you're admitting that you base your politics on whether or not you feel chummy around a candidate, and not on the policies? I don't like the guy I voted for up here in Canadia, but his policies were a heck of a lot more sound than his opponent's.
If the U.S. goes completely into the shitter because voters vote for "the guy I like" instead of "the guy with the right angle," well, there isn't going to be a lot of sympathy floating around.
posted by illiad at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2008
What was wrong with Carter?
Jimmy was a pussy. So was Dukakis. That's why people were turned off from Democrats for a time period expanding all the way back to LBJs' only election. Make no mistake about it, America wins the wars that she undertakes vs. Fuck, the Ayatollah holds our people hostage and Kitty is drinking vanilla extract again. I remember those days, sadly enough. Say what you want, but our masculinity as a society must be fed. That's why the repubs use terms like appeasement, negotiation and concensus as references to Chamberlain, Carter and Kerry's perceived weaknesses. It's simple psycology that hits to the core masculine traits. It's not rocket surgery.
I think it's pretty easy for people to use an imagined Other racist as an excuse.
I'm being completely honest here in my assertion that swing voters will have a hesistancy at the right moment to vote on racial lines. Why? My perception of human behavior. Nope, not an expert of any sort nor claim to be. Matter of fact, I don't even have a batshitinsane blog reference to back me up. But after observing people for the better part of two decades, I can surmise the following: when push comes to shove, people will stick together first based on politics, secondly on nationalism and then on religion. And when things get really tough and a choice has to be made, they will do so on race.
Tiger, Denzel and Will Smith don't have a say in who runs things. Neither did Joe Louis, Meadowlark Lemon nor Hank Aaron. None of them were elected to anything other than the pantheon of a self-congratulating business concern. Be realistic, please.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:54 PM on September 14, 2008
Jimmy was a pussy. So was Dukakis. That's why people were turned off from Democrats for a time period expanding all the way back to LBJs' only election. Make no mistake about it, America wins the wars that she undertakes vs. Fuck, the Ayatollah holds our people hostage and Kitty is drinking vanilla extract again. I remember those days, sadly enough. Say what you want, but our masculinity as a society must be fed. That's why the repubs use terms like appeasement, negotiation and concensus as references to Chamberlain, Carter and Kerry's perceived weaknesses. It's simple psycology that hits to the core masculine traits. It's not rocket surgery.
I think it's pretty easy for people to use an imagined Other racist as an excuse.
I'm being completely honest here in my assertion that swing voters will have a hesistancy at the right moment to vote on racial lines. Why? My perception of human behavior. Nope, not an expert of any sort nor claim to be. Matter of fact, I don't even have a batshitinsane blog reference to back me up. But after observing people for the better part of two decades, I can surmise the following: when push comes to shove, people will stick together first based on politics, secondly on nationalism and then on religion. And when things get really tough and a choice has to be made, they will do so on race.
Tiger, Denzel and Will Smith don't have a say in who runs things. Neither did Joe Louis, Meadowlark Lemon nor Hank Aaron. None of them were elected to anything other than the pantheon of a self-congratulating business concern. Be realistic, please.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:54 PM on September 14, 2008
In other (current) VP news, the Washington Post is running excerpts from a new book on Cheney:
Conflict Over Spying Led White House to Brink
Cheney Shielded Bush From Crisis
posted by homunculus at 8:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Conflict Over Spying Led White House to Brink
Cheney Shielded Bush From Crisis
posted by homunculus at 8:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
He was an ineffectual man and I don't like him. I lived thru his administration. Inflation was horrible. The economy was horrible. Jobs were hard to find. And do you remember the Iranian hostage crisis? -- konoliaYou can't be serious, all those things are true now except rather then inflation, people's incomes are decreasing. It seems like every week a major financial institution dies. We have a 6.1% unemployment rate and... do you remember a little thing called The Iraq War!?
Rather then trying to convince us that Obama wouldn't be another Carter, you should be trying to convince us that McCain wouldn't be another Bush. I mean seriously, it's the same fucking people!
In the other thread, you were saying that "we would all be OK" no matter who got elected. Now you're saying you're worried about economic policy. Well which is it? Does it matter whose president or not?
If you want to vote as a single issue anti-abortion voter, go for it. But don't pretend like this other B.S. is true. Come on.
Gee, maybe because the scenario you just outlined is a tad more complex than your original "OMFG Palin is gunna make yur momz a baby factory for rapists!111!1" assertion. A lot of shit has to happen for that to come to pass but please, don't let reality stand in the way of your fear mongering. I've heard that claim made, in one form or another, about every GOP presidential candidate for the last 20 years. For some reason the term "crying wolf" comes to mind...Dude, Sarah Palin opposes abortion even in the case of rape and incest. It's not fear mongering to tell people what her actual policy would entail even if she might not be able to pull it off. it's what she wants to do. For fuck sake, she charged rape victims for their own treatment while she was mayor of Wasilla, it these are her real, professed positions, not some left-wing fantasy. That is what she is saying she'll try to do.
Can someone explain to a foreigner why it is that voter turnout is so low? This thread is great for seeing passionate people arguing for their sides, but I have a hard time understanding the mind set of the people who just don't vote. Do they honestly not care one way or the other? Do they not realise how much of an effect this election will have? I'm genuinely curious to know what's going on there. --twirlypenWell, for one thing, in states which lean heavily democratic or republican, votes actually don't make much of a difference (except in extreme cases). It would be more informative to look at votes in swing states.
posted by delmoi at 8:58 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Some perspective on the "Alaska is next to Russia" spiel, with numbers (self-link, propaganda, youtube)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:59 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:59 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Well, Astro Zombie, the problem is that I think Obama won't do any good for the economy either. I think he won't be ABLE to do the things he is promising. I think in the effort to do them he will wind up damaging the economy more, not less.
It would hardly be possible for him to damage the economy more. Seriously. He'll be going from profligate spending and running up debt to conservative management. The Republican strategy has just been to push off the costs we're running up until some future date. Those costs have to be settled at some time. If we continue to mount them higher, the resulting crash will be the worst in history.
But I do want to ask: why do you think he won't be able to do the things he plans to do?
posted by Miko at 9:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
It would hardly be possible for him to damage the economy more. Seriously. He'll be going from profligate spending and running up debt to conservative management. The Republican strategy has just been to push off the costs we're running up until some future date. Those costs have to be settled at some time. If we continue to mount them higher, the resulting crash will be the worst in history.
But I do want to ask: why do you think he won't be able to do the things he plans to do?
posted by Miko at 9:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
If the U.S. goes completely into the shitter because voters vote for "the guy I like" instead of "the guy with the right angle," well, there isn't going to be a lot of sympathy floating around.
That's the way elections usually go. People didn't like Carter not only because the economy sucked but he also projected weakness and didn't seem like the guy who could fix it. Along comes a candidate who is optimistic and projects strength (Reagan) and suddenly it's "Jimmy who?" Policy wonkery will lose to charisma and confidence every time (see Kennedy/Nixon) that's why this a a Obama/Palin race because McCain has neither great policies nor great charisma.
posted by MikeMc at 9:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
That's the way elections usually go. People didn't like Carter not only because the economy sucked but he also projected weakness and didn't seem like the guy who could fix it. Along comes a candidate who is optimistic and projects strength (Reagan) and suddenly it's "Jimmy who?" Policy wonkery will lose to charisma and confidence every time (see Kennedy/Nixon) that's why this a a Obama/Palin race because McCain has neither great policies nor great charisma.
posted by MikeMc at 9:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm being completely honest here in my assertion that swing voters will have a hesistancy at the right moment to vote on racial lines. Why? My perception of human behavior. Nope, not an expert of any sort nor claim to be. Matter of fact, I don't even have a batshitinsane blog reference to back me up. But after observing people for the better part of two decades, I can surmise the following: when push comes to shove, people will stick together first based on politics, secondly on nationalism and then on religion. And when things get really tough and a choice has to be made, they will do so on race.Yeah, it's a shame that nice Obama fellow lost the democratic primary, I bet he'd be doing really well. Hillary is getting her ass kicked.
posted by delmoi at 9:01 PM on September 14, 2008
A lot of shit has to happen for [rapists being able to choose the women who will bear their child] to come to pass
That is true. A lot does have to happen. It may not happen. But I never thought we'd bomb Iraq because a bunch of Saudis killed 3,000+ people, and hey, we did. And I'll tell you this: the only administration in which it's possible - in which victims of rape would be forced to bear their rapist's children - is a McCain/Palin administration.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
That is true. A lot does have to happen. It may not happen. But I never thought we'd bomb Iraq because a bunch of Saudis killed 3,000+ people, and hey, we did. And I'll tell you this: the only administration in which it's possible - in which victims of rape would be forced to bear their rapist's children - is a McCain/Palin administration.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance?
He doesn't have to be better than Carter. He just has to be better than McCain.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
He doesn't have to be better than Carter. He just has to be better than McCain.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Here, in the US, the availability of ten different brands of toilet paper is taken as a mere formality, not a right, a wish or a pipe dream.
Did you read my comment? Despite the fact that I find it hard to imagine that anyone actually wants 10 different brands of toilet paper as "a right, a wish or a pipe dream" (personally, my rights have to do with things like free speech and my pipe dreams are about world peace), we have the same selection. I can waste the same 20 minutes in Canada trying to decide what ^%%$£ brand to buy, just as I do where I currently live in the United States. And at the end of that twenty minutes, I always still buy the same cheapest store brand, just like I did from the store in Britain where I think I only had *gasp* six or seven brands to choose from.
But I'd like to take this moment to point something out: while your government frets about replacing your old F-111's, we've already researched, developed, deployed and sold a whole new generation of aircraft. In large numbers. Unsurmountable numbers. Ourselves. Out of the blue. We project power as a matter of fact. You send us some of your gap year kids.
Yes, you have some fine miltary hardware. We have universal health care (in Canada at least - Australia is different). You also have some serious national debt; until recently, the Canadian government was running a budget surplus.
And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.
Now, this is a good point, though it seems to have nothing to do with your earlier ones, and most non-Americans who read American media and/or have travelled or lived in the United States are very aware of this fact. The United States is a an economic, cultural and political metropole and, like all metropoles, it doesn't look out to its provinces.
But that kind of ignorance is nothing to boast about. Americans should understand that the American lifestyle is extremely similar to that in other settler-based ex-colonies, and different from but not better than the lifestyles in most other developed countries on the planet. You don't need to be perpetuating the misunderstanding.
posted by jb at 9:07 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Did you read my comment? Despite the fact that I find it hard to imagine that anyone actually wants 10 different brands of toilet paper as "a right, a wish or a pipe dream" (personally, my rights have to do with things like free speech and my pipe dreams are about world peace), we have the same selection. I can waste the same 20 minutes in Canada trying to decide what ^%%$£ brand to buy, just as I do where I currently live in the United States. And at the end of that twenty minutes, I always still buy the same cheapest store brand, just like I did from the store in Britain where I think I only had *gasp* six or seven brands to choose from.
But I'd like to take this moment to point something out: while your government frets about replacing your old F-111's, we've already researched, developed, deployed and sold a whole new generation of aircraft. In large numbers. Unsurmountable numbers. Ourselves. Out of the blue. We project power as a matter of fact. You send us some of your gap year kids.
Yes, you have some fine miltary hardware. We have universal health care (in Canada at least - Australia is different). You also have some serious national debt; until recently, the Canadian government was running a budget surplus.
And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.
Now, this is a good point, though it seems to have nothing to do with your earlier ones, and most non-Americans who read American media and/or have travelled or lived in the United States are very aware of this fact. The United States is a an economic, cultural and political metropole and, like all metropoles, it doesn't look out to its provinces.
But that kind of ignorance is nothing to boast about. Americans should understand that the American lifestyle is extremely similar to that in other settler-based ex-colonies, and different from but not better than the lifestyles in most other developed countries on the planet. You don't need to be perpetuating the misunderstanding.
posted by jb at 9:07 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
it's what she wants to do
It's what they all want to do (GOP candidates that is)! What makes anyone think Palin is any worse on this issue than W? We heard these same things in 2000 and 2004 but still abortion is legal. How long until waving the coat hangers doesn't work anymore? Abortion is a great fund raising issue for both sides but to be honest I think the majority of the American people like things just as they are and I don't see Roe v. Wade getting overturned anytime soon (at worst the issue will go back to the states).
posted by MikeMc at 9:08 PM on September 14, 2008
It's what they all want to do (GOP candidates that is)! What makes anyone think Palin is any worse on this issue than W? We heard these same things in 2000 and 2004 but still abortion is legal. How long until waving the coat hangers doesn't work anymore? Abortion is a great fund raising issue for both sides but to be honest I think the majority of the American people like things just as they are and I don't see Roe v. Wade getting overturned anytime soon (at worst the issue will go back to the states).
posted by MikeMc at 9:08 PM on September 14, 2008
Listen, I'm all for finding McCain to be somehow responsible for the death of 134 sailors aboard the USS Forrestal, and I know that the McCain wet-start story has some traction, but I think it's the sort of thing we need to be pretty damn certain of before we start discussing it as fact. We are not swift boaters.
I did not realize this was swiftboat bait. My apologies. I'm a dummy.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I did not realize this was swiftboat bait. My apologies. I'm a dummy.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
And I'll tell you this: the only administration in which it's possible - in which victims of rape would be forced to bear their rapist's children - is a McCain/Palin administration.
I don't see McCain taking any action on abortion if he wins. Think back a few months when the right leaning pundits were calling McCain a "RINO" (Republican In Name Only), he doesn't really fit the GOP mold but hey, he won, they have no choice but to back him. If he wins I think he'll be a "one and done" president with no real legacy (much like Bush I) because I don't think he has any issues that he's actually passionate about.
posted by MikeMc at 9:13 PM on September 14, 2008
I don't see McCain taking any action on abortion if he wins. Think back a few months when the right leaning pundits were calling McCain a "RINO" (Republican In Name Only), he doesn't really fit the GOP mold but hey, he won, they have no choice but to back him. If he wins I think he'll be a "one and done" president with no real legacy (much like Bush I) because I don't think he has any issues that he's actually passionate about.
posted by MikeMc at 9:13 PM on September 14, 2008
Do they honestly not care one way or the other? Do they not realise how much of an effect this election will have?
Certainly a little of both - but even more than that, we're not a well-informed nation. Despite our many media outlets, few do a good job of educating the populace. And those that do have a hard time getting any attention, because they're perceived as boring. We're over-entertained, I'm afraid, and our secondary-level civics education is pretty bad. People are often told that their votes don't make a difference, and many have come to believe it. Another ill is the idea that there's no difference between the major parties - the policy platform difference is vast and has tremendous long-term effect, of course, yet some people see them as equivalents. The Republican Party has not traditionally encouraged a wide turnout, because it is a more tightly run ship that organizes through networks. Getting to those unregistered and less-aware voters is a task that tends to fall to Democrats.
More factors: The general lack of interest in civics makes local elections often a "gimme" for whoever does the mobilizing (Presidential election turnouts are generally a much higher percentage of the population than local elections!), and if you aren't politically involved more than once every four years, it's hard to stay abreast of anything other than the sticky sound-bites and glancing cable-news appearances you happen to catch. Then, too, we don't have anywhere near as comprehensive a system for registering all eligible voters as we do for, say, draft registration. States set their own registration processes, so it varies from state to state - in one state you might register during your senior year of high school, if you make it that far, while in another it might not be offered in school. Some states have tried "Motor Voter" laws, where you register to vote as part of your driver licensing, but again, that only reaches people who are applying for a license to drive. Since there's no consistent clearinghouse to catch every eligible voter, about 25% of people have never been registered at all (that number is higher among minority populations), and of those, 20% or so are inactive voters. Transportation to the polls is an issue for some. For working people, finding time to vote can be challenging - especially when, in some polling places, lines easily exceed a 2-hour wait.
Still, it's pretty damn shameful, when I think of our forebears who actually offered their lives to secure the right to vote. The women who starved until the government force-fed them in prison; the civil rights activists who fought Jim Crow , dealing with fines, poll taxes, and the threat (and actuality) of lynching in order to cast ballots....
posted by Miko at 9:17 PM on September 14, 2008
Certainly a little of both - but even more than that, we're not a well-informed nation. Despite our many media outlets, few do a good job of educating the populace. And those that do have a hard time getting any attention, because they're perceived as boring. We're over-entertained, I'm afraid, and our secondary-level civics education is pretty bad. People are often told that their votes don't make a difference, and many have come to believe it. Another ill is the idea that there's no difference between the major parties - the policy platform difference is vast and has tremendous long-term effect, of course, yet some people see them as equivalents. The Republican Party has not traditionally encouraged a wide turnout, because it is a more tightly run ship that organizes through networks. Getting to those unregistered and less-aware voters is a task that tends to fall to Democrats.
More factors: The general lack of interest in civics makes local elections often a "gimme" for whoever does the mobilizing (Presidential election turnouts are generally a much higher percentage of the population than local elections!), and if you aren't politically involved more than once every four years, it's hard to stay abreast of anything other than the sticky sound-bites and glancing cable-news appearances you happen to catch. Then, too, we don't have anywhere near as comprehensive a system for registering all eligible voters as we do for, say, draft registration. States set their own registration processes, so it varies from state to state - in one state you might register during your senior year of high school, if you make it that far, while in another it might not be offered in school. Some states have tried "Motor Voter" laws, where you register to vote as part of your driver licensing, but again, that only reaches people who are applying for a license to drive. Since there's no consistent clearinghouse to catch every eligible voter, about 25% of people have never been registered at all (that number is higher among minority populations), and of those, 20% or so are inactive voters. Transportation to the polls is an issue for some. For working people, finding time to vote can be challenging - especially when, in some polling places, lines easily exceed a 2-hour wait.
Still, it's pretty damn shameful, when I think of our forebears who actually offered their lives to secure the right to vote. The women who starved until the government force-fed them in prison; the civil rights activists who fought Jim Crow , dealing with fines, poll taxes, and the threat (and actuality) of lynching in order to cast ballots....
posted by Miko at 9:17 PM on September 14, 2008
I have a hard time understanding the mind set of the people who just don't vote. Do they honestly not care one way or the other?
you've got two types - those who don't care, period - and those who are convinced that no matter who wins, the same bastards behind the scene will keep running things anyway and will never listen to them
---
What was wrong with Carter?
he didn't perform - part of that was circumstance, part of that was he was above his level - and part of that was the american people preferred being lied to than led
---
the problem is that I think Obama won't do any good for the economy either.
when he attempts to do something about it, he will have the common people more in mind than that guy with 7 houses will - frankly, i wonder if anyone will be able to deal effectively with what may come and that the next president of the usa is going to be remembered as the next herbert hoover ...
but i'm certain, especially after the dirty tricks of the last two weeks, that mccain will not be able to govern, if elected - i thought he was merely wrong, but decent a month ago - now i can't give him the benefit of that doubt anymore - and there are a lot of people who feel the same way
he's blown it with his tactics, even if he gets elected - he'll be YOUR president, not mine
posted by pyramid termite at 9:18 PM on September 14, 2008
you've got two types - those who don't care, period - and those who are convinced that no matter who wins, the same bastards behind the scene will keep running things anyway and will never listen to them
---
What was wrong with Carter?
he didn't perform - part of that was circumstance, part of that was he was above his level - and part of that was the american people preferred being lied to than led
---
the problem is that I think Obama won't do any good for the economy either.
when he attempts to do something about it, he will have the common people more in mind than that guy with 7 houses will - frankly, i wonder if anyone will be able to deal effectively with what may come and that the next president of the usa is going to be remembered as the next herbert hoover ...
but i'm certain, especially after the dirty tricks of the last two weeks, that mccain will not be able to govern, if elected - i thought he was merely wrong, but decent a month ago - now i can't give him the benefit of that doubt anymore - and there are a lot of people who feel the same way
he's blown it with his tactics, even if he gets elected - he'll be YOUR president, not mine
posted by pyramid termite at 9:18 PM on September 14, 2008
It's what they all want to do (GOP candidates that is)! What makes anyone think Palin is any worse on this issue than W?
Even President Bush is okay with abortion if a 14 year-old girl is raped by her father. Sarah Palin is not. Sarah Palin's stated objective is to criminalize abortion so that a rape victim would be forced to bear her rapist's child.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:20 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Even President Bush is okay with abortion if a 14 year-old girl is raped by her father. Sarah Palin is not. Sarah Palin's stated objective is to criminalize abortion so that a rape victim would be forced to bear her rapist's child.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:20 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
lost the democratic primary
Feh. Now there's a contest I couldn't be arsed to vote in. Intraparty horseshit. Boy, did I get the vote out on that one. I don't even know if my mother was a delegate this year, because I couldn't be bothered to ask. (Hillarly won here, btw)
Non US citizens: the inception of the electoral college means that we vote on state lines. Every state is assigned certain number of electoral votes based on their respective populations, which are already forecasted by the number of each states' representatives in the whorehouse we call a congress. Certain states, like my beloved Massachusetts, which is a commonwealth, not a state nor a plantation, vote Democrat. Regardless of the candidate. We do this with the conviction that we're better than everyone else, even if it means being the only state to do so. Google Red Sox, Patriots or Celtics if you don't believe me. So if any North Shore or Western Mass republicant decides they want to take time out of their day to represent their views at the ballot box, it's all for naught, because the sane people in the Greater Boston Area (>50% of the Mass. populus) have already sorted it out for them. Same goes for tradionally Republican states. So there's a lot of disenfranchisement due to the misperception of one man, one vote.
The only interesting aspect about the US presidential elections lie in the so-called swing states, also known as places where they can't make up their goddamn mind. This is where all the rhetorical nonsense comes from as candidates try to appeal to most voyeuristic of voters by downing boilermakers and cheesesteaks. Basically, they have to beg for votes from people who think a clean pair of sneakers are an introduction to polite society. Eighteen months of masturbating people who can't balance a checkbook. That's what we call democracy. There's room for more, btw.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
Feh. Now there's a contest I couldn't be arsed to vote in. Intraparty horseshit. Boy, did I get the vote out on that one. I don't even know if my mother was a delegate this year, because I couldn't be bothered to ask. (Hillarly won here, btw)
Non US citizens: the inception of the electoral college means that we vote on state lines. Every state is assigned certain number of electoral votes based on their respective populations, which are already forecasted by the number of each states' representatives in the whorehouse we call a congress. Certain states, like my beloved Massachusetts, which is a commonwealth, not a state nor a plantation, vote Democrat. Regardless of the candidate. We do this with the conviction that we're better than everyone else, even if it means being the only state to do so. Google Red Sox, Patriots or Celtics if you don't believe me. So if any North Shore or Western Mass republicant decides they want to take time out of their day to represent their views at the ballot box, it's all for naught, because the sane people in the Greater Boston Area (>50% of the Mass. populus) have already sorted it out for them. Same goes for tradionally Republican states. So there's a lot of disenfranchisement due to the misperception of one man, one vote.
The only interesting aspect about the US presidential elections lie in the so-called swing states, also known as places where they can't make up their goddamn mind. This is where all the rhetorical nonsense comes from as candidates try to appeal to most voyeuristic of voters by downing boilermakers and cheesesteaks. Basically, they have to beg for votes from people who think a clean pair of sneakers are an introduction to polite society. Eighteen months of masturbating people who can't balance a checkbook. That's what we call democracy. There's room for more, btw.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:21 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]
People are often told that their votes don't make a difference, and many have come to believe it.
Well, the Electoral College doesn't help there. Were I a Republican voter in New York or a Democrat in Texas I would be sorely tempted to avoid the polls on election day and save myself the bother of waiting in line.
posted by MikeMc at 9:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, the Electoral College doesn't help there. Were I a Republican voter in New York or a Democrat in Texas I would be sorely tempted to avoid the polls on election day and save myself the bother of waiting in line.
posted by MikeMc at 9:25 PM on September 14, 2008
Basically, they have to beg for votes from people who think a clean pair of sneakers are an introduction to polite society. Eighteen months of masturbating people who can't balance a checkbook.
and yet, they can figure out how to feed the country, and you can't
posted by pyramid termite at 9:26 PM on September 14, 2008
and yet, they can figure out how to feed the country, and you can't
posted by pyramid termite at 9:26 PM on September 14, 2008
after observing people for the better part of two decades,
I think that's in the eye of the observer. It tells me more about what observations you have taken in than about the world itself. And the lack of evidence you admit is the same thing I hear from others who propose this view - "it's not me I'm worried about, I just think America's racists are going to circle the wagons." I'm not worried about America's racists. Let them have a nice campfire. I'm worried about the person I'm talking to right now.
I have observations, as well: I'm also oldish, I've been active in politics and civic life for a long time, and I've been active in the Obama campaign since December. When I attend his events, I see that there are people - a whole, large lot of people - who make other choices than banding together upon identity points. I see men, women, seniors, youth, middle-aged people, whites, blacks, asians, etc. A quick review of campaign events will reveal his crowds as more representative of America's makeup than any other candidate's. There is a certain portion of people who are able to take a broader view, especially when a cogent argument is made. Hell, I'm a woman. I've been voting for men most of my life; had to. I didn't run to support Hilary or Palin based on gender. I'm not retreating to gender - why should we expect anyone to retreat to race? That kind of thinking about exploiting surface divides is, I think, a strategy ready to go the way of all flesh; the electorate has changed with the advance of milennials to voting age and the dying off of the greatest generation, as well as with shifts in economic status. Americans today have more in common than bloc identity, especially when the writing is so clearly on the wall about the nation's future.
I don't see McCain taking any action on abortion if he wins.
He probably won't, but he won't have to; his Supreme Court replacements will likely take care of that. If he thought of himself as "one and done," then he might appoint more liberal justices; but if he plans a second term, he can't afford to alienate that fraction of the base that he needs Palin to bring in. Of course, a desire for a second term is totally hypothetical - he'd be 76 upon assuming a second term. It would take him, if he lived, to the age of 80. Not sure he's got it in him.
posted by Miko at 9:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think that's in the eye of the observer. It tells me more about what observations you have taken in than about the world itself. And the lack of evidence you admit is the same thing I hear from others who propose this view - "it's not me I'm worried about, I just think America's racists are going to circle the wagons." I'm not worried about America's racists. Let them have a nice campfire. I'm worried about the person I'm talking to right now.
I have observations, as well: I'm also oldish, I've been active in politics and civic life for a long time, and I've been active in the Obama campaign since December. When I attend his events, I see that there are people - a whole, large lot of people - who make other choices than banding together upon identity points. I see men, women, seniors, youth, middle-aged people, whites, blacks, asians, etc. A quick review of campaign events will reveal his crowds as more representative of America's makeup than any other candidate's. There is a certain portion of people who are able to take a broader view, especially when a cogent argument is made. Hell, I'm a woman. I've been voting for men most of my life; had to. I didn't run to support Hilary or Palin based on gender. I'm not retreating to gender - why should we expect anyone to retreat to race? That kind of thinking about exploiting surface divides is, I think, a strategy ready to go the way of all flesh; the electorate has changed with the advance of milennials to voting age and the dying off of the greatest generation, as well as with shifts in economic status. Americans today have more in common than bloc identity, especially when the writing is so clearly on the wall about the nation's future.
I don't see McCain taking any action on abortion if he wins.
He probably won't, but he won't have to; his Supreme Court replacements will likely take care of that. If he thought of himself as "one and done," then he might appoint more liberal justices; but if he plans a second term, he can't afford to alienate that fraction of the base that he needs Palin to bring in. Of course, a desire for a second term is totally hypothetical - he'd be 76 upon assuming a second term. It would take him, if he lived, to the age of 80. Not sure he's got it in him.
posted by Miko at 9:27 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Were I a Republican voter in New York or a Democrat in Texas I would be sorely tempted to avoid the polls on election day and save myself the bother of waiting in line.
Thus contributing to the public misperception that Texans are either all Republicans or totally apathetic and that New Yorkers are all Democrats or totally apathetic, while discouraging qualified candidates from running in your district, telling the media not to pay any attention to political activity in your state, allowing the dominant party to control the message and continue to snowball more support, and influencing the appearance of a mandate or popular vote landslide for your opponent as well as shortchanging your local elections on the same ballot.
posted by Miko at 9:32 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Thus contributing to the public misperception that Texans are either all Republicans or totally apathetic and that New Yorkers are all Democrats or totally apathetic, while discouraging qualified candidates from running in your district, telling the media not to pay any attention to political activity in your state, allowing the dominant party to control the message and continue to snowball more support, and influencing the appearance of a mandate or popular vote landslide for your opponent as well as shortchanging your local elections on the same ballot.
posted by Miko at 9:32 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]
Thanks for all of the great perspectives, people. The U.S. federal election system is a bit of a fog to us Parliamentary types, so the analyses posted here can be really enlightening.
Having said that, I'm mildly astonished that the U.S. electorate faces such difficulty with voter registration and getting out to vote. Here (.ca) the registration process is simple, and you have various ways of getting your registration in to Elections Canada. And over the last 20 years of voting in one of the bigger cities in British Columbia I have never waited more than 2 minutes to cast a ballot. Ballots here are still done with pencil and paper, by the way. No hanging whatsits.
posted by illiad at 9:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Having said that, I'm mildly astonished that the U.S. electorate faces such difficulty with voter registration and getting out to vote. Here (.ca) the registration process is simple, and you have various ways of getting your registration in to Elections Canada. And over the last 20 years of voting in one of the bigger cities in British Columbia I have never waited more than 2 minutes to cast a ballot. Ballots here are still done with pencil and paper, by the way. No hanging whatsits.
posted by illiad at 9:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
Frankly I have no idea what jsavimbi is going on about. I think he's just jealous that McCain is hogging all of Charley Black's time. Americans are well aware of Canada, the average American thinks about Canada the same way they would about, say, California or New York. There was a poll a while back that showed Americans think about Canada as being more like another state in the U.S. then another country. And we also get a shitload of Oil from Canada. Savimbi is spouting a lot of weird nonsense in this thread, frankly.And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.Now, this is a good point, though it seems to have nothing to do with your earlier ones, and most non-Americans who read American media and/or have travelled or lived in the United States are very aware of this fact. The United States is a an economic, cultural and political metropole and, like all metropoles, it doesn't look out to its provinces.
But that kind of ignorance is nothing to boast about. Americans should understand that the American lifestyle is extremely similar to that in other settler-based ex-colonies, and different from but not better than the lifestyles in most other developed countries on the planet. You don't need to be perpetuating the misunderstanding.
And by the way, the standard of living is how higher in the U.K. then in the United States. Yes, that's right People are richer in the U.K then in the U.S., people there now have even more brands of toilet paper -- so to speak.
I don't see McCain taking any action on abortion if he wins. Think back a few months when the right leaning pundits were calling McCain a "RINO" (Republican In Name Only), he doesn't really fit the GOP mold but hey, he wonYeah, and how long until he eats a mysteriously poisoned moosburger?
posted by delmoi at 9:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]
Yeah, and how long until he eats a mysteriously poisoned moosburger?
Well, you've got me there. Thats +1 on the favorites.
posted by MikeMc at 9:39 PM on September 14, 2008
Well, you've got me there. Thats +1 on the favorites.
posted by MikeMc at 9:39 PM on September 14, 2008
But that kind of ignorance is nothing to boast about.
You don't get it. Please allow me to explain this to you using caps:
THE AVERAGE AMERICAN DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU, WHERE YOU'RE FROM OR WHAT YOU THINK. ARE YOU AVAILABLE TO WORK? That's all they care about.
(personally, my rights have to do with things like free speech and my pipe dreams are about world peace)
Confirmed: you really don't get us. I sympathize with your point, but aside from certain sectors, nobody in the US cares about that nonsense. If we did, we wouldn't have had a fascist government for the past eight years. We do our bitching in forums, not out in the street.
I think that's in the eye of the observer.
Exactly. I'm not making any widespread claims, and I'm certainly not going to get upset about a sambo depiction on a box of waffles at a losers' seminar. It's par for the course, otherwise it wouldn't be allowed, right? There's nothing scientific about framing my view of the election based on the microcosm I live in, and I don't extrapolate it to anyone else's.
If he thought of himself as "one and done,"
You nailed it right there. I think he's betting on a quickie and is willing to eat shit to get it. He's come too far for too long to let his one chance get away, hence the nod to the religiosos. He'll disemvowel that Bangladeshi kid to do so.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:45 PM on September 14, 2008
You don't get it. Please allow me to explain this to you using caps:
THE AVERAGE AMERICAN DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU, WHERE YOU'RE FROM OR WHAT YOU THINK. ARE YOU AVAILABLE TO WORK? That's all they care about.
(personally, my rights have to do with things like free speech and my pipe dreams are about world peace)
Confirmed: you really don't get us. I sympathize with your point, but aside from certain sectors, nobody in the US cares about that nonsense. If we did, we wouldn't have had a fascist government for the past eight years. We do our bitching in forums, not out in the street.
I think that's in the eye of the observer.
Exactly. I'm not making any widespread claims, and I'm certainly not going to get upset about a sambo depiction on a box of waffles at a losers' seminar. It's par for the course, otherwise it wouldn't be allowed, right? There's nothing scientific about framing my view of the election based on the microcosm I live in, and I don't extrapolate it to anyone else's.
If he thought of himself as "one and done,"
You nailed it right there. I think he's betting on a quickie and is willing to eat shit to get it. He's come too far for too long to let his one chance get away, hence the nod to the religiosos. He'll disemvowel that Bangladeshi kid to do so.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:45 PM on September 14, 2008
There was a poll a while back that showed Americans think about Canada as being more like another state in the U.S. then another country.
That's an interesting result, delmoi. I'd be keen on finding the details of the study just for personal edification. The results runs diametrically to my own personal experiences: most U.S. citizens I know just south of the border in the Pacific Northwest seem astonishingly put-off by the idea of taking a day trip into Vancouver. Foreign country and all that.
posted by illiad at 9:47 PM on September 14, 2008
That's an interesting result, delmoi. I'd be keen on finding the details of the study just for personal edification. The results runs diametrically to my own personal experiences: most U.S. citizens I know just south of the border in the Pacific Northwest seem astonishingly put-off by the idea of taking a day trip into Vancouver. Foreign country and all that.
posted by illiad at 9:47 PM on September 14, 2008
Can you all persuade me that Obama would be better than Carter, for instance?
konolia - I very much disagree with you on Carter. Most of the popular understanding of his administration has been heavily coloured by a very negative campaign against him by Reagan. His admistration did happen during a really bad economic period for the whole world (not just the United States), and this vilification of him makes just about a much sense as deposing a king who couldn't magically make the rains come. I think he was a serious thoughtful president in difficult times, and he refused to lie to people and tell them everything was okay. And they liked him for it - his approval rating went up after the so-called "Malaise" speech. But being honest - which we claim to like in a candidate, but don't really - was used against him by his political enemies who preferred rhetoric to substance.
--------------------------------------
What I would say about Obama is that as fair as I can tell he has both rhetoric and substance. He has given serious thought to his policy. He has been very active in the Senate. I was especially interested to note that one of his bills was about the Democratic Republic of Congo; it's a very bad situation over there, but not headline-grabby. It is, however, one of the most serious international relations problem in the world today, and one of the most intractable.
He's really tried to think about what policies might improve education and health care, and here his previous experience really matters working in education in Chicago, seeing what did and what didn't work). And even the quite right leaning Economist has been flattering about the kind of cutting edge economic research he's tapped into, though as pro-freetraders they have tsk-tsked the Democrats for giving into political expediancy and coming out as pro-protectionism when campaigning in manufacturing areas.
His tax cuts are certainly much more directed at working Americans than McCain's. I'm not actually pro-tax cuts (I like good services and fiscal responsibility), but McCain's tax cut plan provides much larger percentage of tax cuts to the very wealthiest Americans than it does to middle class Americans. It's fiscally irresponsible and seriously socially regressive. Obama's provides the largest cuts to those at the bottom and middle. You should seriously check out the comparison chart. If your family makes under $112,000 a year, you will get a larger tax cut from Obama than McCain is proposing. Diplomatically, I believe that he will also be more judicious than a McCain administration. That is seriously needed right now.
Governments can't change the world. They can't make global warming go away, or make international commodity prices like oil fall, well, not without nationalizing the production or price manipulation. But in difficult times, their policies can mitigate these problems. It's like piloting a ship through stormy seas - you can't make the storm go away, but you want to chart the best course or it all could get much worse.
I don't like everything on the Democratic platform - and I can't vote anyways. But I think it is a better thought out platform than the current Republican platform. But you may not believe me, because I also like Carter.
All I can suggest is that you should do your own research. You should look and listen to independent assessments of their platforms - not just pundits, but articles that provide specific details and talk about what they mean. Read serious newspapers and magasines from multiple editorial stances. I actually suggest The Economist, a British/international (because they have writers from all over) centre-right magasine about world issues and economics. I disagree with them on many things, but I respect their analysis.
And most of all -- read the candidate's websites and listen to their stump speeches. I don't know about McCain, but Obama and Biden have many speeches on their Youtube channel. (This was the first I heard about Obama supporting highspeed rail, which is a big pet issue of mine - it impressed me since it's just not usually talked about at all in North America.)
posted by jb at 9:49 PM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
konolia - I very much disagree with you on Carter. Most of the popular understanding of his administration has been heavily coloured by a very negative campaign against him by Reagan. His admistration did happen during a really bad economic period for the whole world (not just the United States), and this vilification of him makes just about a much sense as deposing a king who couldn't magically make the rains come. I think he was a serious thoughtful president in difficult times, and he refused to lie to people and tell them everything was okay. And they liked him for it - his approval rating went up after the so-called "Malaise" speech. But being honest - which we claim to like in a candidate, but don't really - was used against him by his political enemies who preferred rhetoric to substance.
--------------------------------------
What I would say about Obama is that as fair as I can tell he has both rhetoric and substance. He has given serious thought to his policy. He has been very active in the Senate. I was especially interested to note that one of his bills was about the Democratic Republic of Congo; it's a very bad situation over there, but not headline-grabby. It is, however, one of the most serious international relations problem in the world today, and one of the most intractable.
He's really tried to think about what policies might improve education and health care, and here his previous experience really matters working in education in Chicago, seeing what did and what didn't work). And even the quite right leaning Economist has been flattering about the kind of cutting edge economic research he's tapped into, though as pro-freetraders they have tsk-tsked the Democrats for giving into political expediancy and coming out as pro-protectionism when campaigning in manufacturing areas.
His tax cuts are certainly much more directed at working Americans than McCain's. I'm not actually pro-tax cuts (I like good services and fiscal responsibility), but McCain's tax cut plan provides much larger percentage of tax cuts to the very wealthiest Americans than it does to middle class Americans. It's fiscally irresponsible and seriously socially regressive. Obama's provides the largest cuts to those at the bottom and middle. You should seriously check out the comparison chart. If your family makes under $112,000 a year, you will get a larger tax cut from Obama than McCain is proposing. Diplomatically, I believe that he will also be more judicious than a McCain administration. That is seriously needed right now.
Governments can't change the world. They can't make global warming go away, or make international commodity prices like oil fall, well, not without nationalizing the production or price manipulation. But in difficult times, their policies can mitigate these problems. It's like piloting a ship through stormy seas - you can't make the storm go away, but you want to chart the best course or it all could get much worse.
I don't like everything on the Democratic platform - and I can't vote anyways. But I think it is a better thought out platform than the current Republican platform. But you may not believe me, because I also like Carter.
All I can suggest is that you should do your own research. You should look and listen to independent assessments of their platforms - not just pundits, but articles that provide specific details and talk about what they mean. Read serious newspapers and magasines from multiple editorial stances. I actually suggest The Economist, a British/international (because they have writers from all over) centre-right magasine about world issues and economics. I disagree with them on many things, but I respect their analysis.
And most of all -- read the candidate's websites and listen to their stump speeches. I don't know about McCain, but Obama and Biden have many speeches on their Youtube channel. (This was the first I heard about Obama supporting highspeed rail, which is a big pet issue of mine - it impressed me since it's just not usually talked about at all in North America.)
posted by jb at 9:49 PM on September 14, 2008 [13 favorites]
You... you understand people vote for other things on Election Day as well, right?
I will be so bold as to say that most voters only turn out for presidential elections, anything else on the ballot is gravy. Just take a look at look election turnouts, there are important things on the ballot but most registered voters don't give a shit. And just for the record I do take voting seriously and I rarely miss an opportunity to cast my ballot I'm just saying I would be tempted to stay home.
posted by MikeMc at 9:50 PM on September 14, 2008
I will be so bold as to say that most voters only turn out for presidential elections, anything else on the ballot is gravy. Just take a look at look election turnouts, there are important things on the ballot but most registered voters don't give a shit. And just for the record I do take voting seriously and I rarely miss an opportunity to cast my ballot I'm just saying I would be tempted to stay home.
posted by MikeMc at 9:50 PM on September 14, 2008
most U.S. citizens I know just south of the border in the Pacific Northwest seem astonishingly put-off by the idea of taking a day trip into Vancouver.
It's those nosy ass Canadian Customs guys. Seriously, who brings fucking painted turtles into Canada anyway? Now, maybe things have changed since the last time I drove into Canada but those guys wanted to see my cash, credit cards (WTF???) and all sorts of shit. Hell, the station on the U.S. side was rarely staffed (Pembina,ND) and they usually just waved you through anyway.
posted by MikeMc at 9:56 PM on September 14, 2008
It's those nosy ass Canadian Customs guys. Seriously, who brings fucking painted turtles into Canada anyway? Now, maybe things have changed since the last time I drove into Canada but those guys wanted to see my cash, credit cards (WTF???) and all sorts of shit. Hell, the station on the U.S. side was rarely staffed (Pembina,ND) and they usually just waved you through anyway.
posted by MikeMc at 9:56 PM on September 14, 2008
Just take a look at look election turnouts
local election turnouts
posted by MikeMc at 9:58 PM on September 14, 2008
local election turnouts
posted by MikeMc at 9:58 PM on September 14, 2008
I think things have probably changed, MikeMc. It's getting to the point of rubber gloves when crossing south of the 49th and you're not a U.S. citizen.
I've never had a problem with being questioned at the U.S border. After all, I'm not a citizen and entering the country is a privilege, and not a right. This isn't fully understood by some of your fellow countrymen however; apocryphal stories of Americans crossing into Canada on vacation being outraged that there's a different set of laws up here.
Canada/US border protection joke: When crossing south into the U.S., you're checked for links to terrorism. When crossing north into Canada, you're checked for how much they can tax your ass.
posted by illiad at 10:00 PM on September 14, 2008
I've never had a problem with being questioned at the U.S border. After all, I'm not a citizen and entering the country is a privilege, and not a right. This isn't fully understood by some of your fellow countrymen however; apocryphal stories of Americans crossing into Canada on vacation being outraged that there's a different set of laws up here.
Canada/US border protection joke: When crossing south into the U.S., you're checked for links to terrorism. When crossing north into Canada, you're checked for how much they can tax your ass.
posted by illiad at 10:00 PM on September 14, 2008
I don't trust ANYONE RUNNING-not McCain/Palin, not Obama/Biden, re the economy.
These economists disagree.
I know that the Republican party has claimed to be the party of good economics, but they haven't been in a very long time. Their policies are based on out of date economic theory which is being overturned by current research.
posted by jb at 10:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
These economists disagree.
I know that the Republican party has claimed to be the party of good economics, but they haven't been in a very long time. Their policies are based on out of date economic theory which is being overturned by current research.
posted by jb at 10:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, are tattooed killers still voting Palin or not?
posted by maxwelton at 10:05 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by maxwelton at 10:05 PM on September 14, 2008
Canada/US border protection joke
Interestingly, on my last trip north, I was grilled way harder going into Canada than coming back in.
posted by maxwelton at 10:06 PM on September 14, 2008
Interestingly, on my last trip north, I was grilled way harder going into Canada than coming back in.
posted by maxwelton at 10:06 PM on September 14, 2008
Frankly I have no idea what jsavimbi is going on about.
I've been drinking Guinness since 4pm EST. So neither do we. 'Night.
Charley Black, my ass. Why don't you pick on Mobutu, Doe, or Obiang?
posted by jsavimbi at 10:07 PM on September 14, 2008
I've been drinking Guinness since 4pm EST. So neither do we. 'Night.
Charley Black, my ass. Why don't you pick on Mobutu, Doe, or Obiang?
posted by jsavimbi at 10:07 PM on September 14, 2008
It's always going to be that way. If you're not a legal resident or citizen of the country you're visiting, you can expect way more of the Spanish Inquisition at the border. Assuming anyone expects that.
posted by illiad at 10:08 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by illiad at 10:08 PM on September 14, 2008
Can someone explain to a foreigner why it is that voter turnout is so low?
(1) Registration has historically been inconvenient, though this has changed recently.
(2) Voting isn't particularly convenient.
(3) The only time your individual vote matters is if it breaks or makes a tie. Otherwise, the outcome is whatever it was going to be anyway.
(4) Politics isn't hugely salient to most Americans.
Against that you have:
(1) Americans are socialized to feel good about voting and bad about nonvoting.
Put it all together, and you get a whole bunch of people who decide that going home and hanging out with their family will make a bigger expected improvement to their lives than going to vote will. And they're not even wrong.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
(1) Registration has historically been inconvenient, though this has changed recently.
(2) Voting isn't particularly convenient.
(3) The only time your individual vote matters is if it breaks or makes a tie. Otherwise, the outcome is whatever it was going to be anyway.
(4) Politics isn't hugely salient to most Americans.
Against that you have:
(1) Americans are socialized to feel good about voting and bad about nonvoting.
Put it all together, and you get a whole bunch of people who decide that going home and hanging out with their family will make a bigger expected improvement to their lives than going to vote will. And they're not even wrong.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's always going to be that way. If you're not a legal resident or citizen of the country you're visiting, you can expect way more of the Spanish Inquisition at the border. Assuming anyone expects that.
Naw. Biscotti, who is a Canadian person, gets much more shit going to Toronto than she does coming back to B'lo.
We figure that the Americans see the green card and mentally go "Ah, fuck it."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:12 PM on September 14, 2008
Naw. Biscotti, who is a Canadian person, gets much more shit going to Toronto than she does coming back to B'lo.
We figure that the Americans see the green card and mentally go "Ah, fuck it."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:12 PM on September 14, 2008
Just a wild guess here, but Biscotti doesn't look even marginally middle-eastern, does she?
posted by illiad at 10:13 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by illiad at 10:13 PM on September 14, 2008
Palin for V.P. : What a cunning stunt.
posted by telstar at 10:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by telstar at 10:54 PM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]
Barack Obama continues to play the risky role of "incognegro"
Doug Wilder, 77, still meets people who wanted to vote for him when he stood for governor of Virginia back in 1989 but found they just could not do it. They said they would. They even thought they would. But when it came down to it, they just could not vote for a black man. "I've had people who tell me 'I didn't vote for you for lieutenant governor or governor. I wish I had that chance again'," he says.
On the eve of his election he led in the polls by 9%. On the day he won by less than 0.5%. They call it the Wilder effect - the shortfall between white voters' professed support for black candidates and their propensity to actually vote that way. They also call it the Bradley effect, after the Los Angeles mayor Tom Bradley who stood for California governor in 1982. Back then the deception continued even after some had cast their ballot. Bradley's exit poll lead was so significant that early editions of the San Francisco Chronicle projected his victory. He lost by just over 1%.
The question over the next two months is: will there be an Obama effect? And if so will it end like Wilder, in victory; or like Bradley, in defeat? At its heart lies the issue of how America understands the relationship between race and racism, and the degree to which claims of his post-racial candidacy have been misconstrued.
The issue here is not whether racism will cost him the election, but whether the race we think we are watching is in fact the race that is taking place.
posted by Rumple at 10:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Doug Wilder, 77, still meets people who wanted to vote for him when he stood for governor of Virginia back in 1989 but found they just could not do it. They said they would. They even thought they would. But when it came down to it, they just could not vote for a black man. "I've had people who tell me 'I didn't vote for you for lieutenant governor or governor. I wish I had that chance again'," he says.
On the eve of his election he led in the polls by 9%. On the day he won by less than 0.5%. They call it the Wilder effect - the shortfall between white voters' professed support for black candidates and their propensity to actually vote that way. They also call it the Bradley effect, after the Los Angeles mayor Tom Bradley who stood for California governor in 1982. Back then the deception continued even after some had cast their ballot. Bradley's exit poll lead was so significant that early editions of the San Francisco Chronicle projected his victory. He lost by just over 1%.
The question over the next two months is: will there be an Obama effect? And if so will it end like Wilder, in victory; or like Bradley, in defeat? At its heart lies the issue of how America understands the relationship between race and racism, and the degree to which claims of his post-racial candidacy have been misconstrued.
The issue here is not whether racism will cost him the election, but whether the race we think we are watching is in fact the race that is taking place.
posted by Rumple at 10:55 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't trust ANYONE RUNNING-not McCain/Palin, not Obama/Biden, re the economy.
These economists disagree.
I would like to say I'm sorry, I misread the comment from konolia that I quoted. I thought you had said you didn't trust anyone who was NOT McCain/Palin, but now I see that you are saying you don't trust either party. Which I understand, and to an extent agree with. The economy is like a weather-system - anyone who claimed they could fix it would be about as believable as someone who said they could control hurricanes. But there are things you can do to nudge things, and to set up institutions which are robust and mitigate the worse of the ups and downs, and those links I put above will explain why some economists think that Obama will do a better job managing that kind of stuff than McCain (or Clinton as well, in the first link).
posted by jb at 11:16 PM on September 14, 2008
These economists disagree.
I would like to say I'm sorry, I misread the comment from konolia that I quoted. I thought you had said you didn't trust anyone who was NOT McCain/Palin, but now I see that you are saying you don't trust either party. Which I understand, and to an extent agree with. The economy is like a weather-system - anyone who claimed they could fix it would be about as believable as someone who said they could control hurricanes. But there are things you can do to nudge things, and to set up institutions which are robust and mitigate the worse of the ups and downs, and those links I put above will explain why some economists think that Obama will do a better job managing that kind of stuff than McCain (or Clinton as well, in the first link).
posted by jb at 11:16 PM on September 14, 2008
the other day i was driving behind an early-90s chevy suburban, jacked way up high on off-road suspension and big mud tires, and sporting two USMC window decals, an NRA sticker and a Bush-Cheney '04 bumper sticker. scrawled across the rear window in orange grease pen were the words "Gov. Sarah Palin has real executive experience, supports drilling for oil in ANWR, and her wrists are bigger than Obama's."
just throwin' that out there.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 11:23 PM on September 14, 2008
just throwin' that out there.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 11:23 PM on September 14, 2008
I don't trust ANYONE RUNNING-not McCain/Palin, not Obama/Biden.
I only trust Gladys and Snowy. Gladys/Snowy 2008!
I should go to bed.
posted by homunculus at 11:41 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
I only trust Gladys and Snowy. Gladys/Snowy 2008!
I should go to bed.
posted by homunculus at 11:41 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
OC McCain kicks the bucket faster than W. H. Harrison, Palin takes over, a few justices buy the farm, Palin appoints them solely on their opposition to Roe v. Wade, it gets overturned, and hey look at that coming out of the Republican Congress of 2010: a bill banning all abortions without exception. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I think they would also get rid of that pesky wall between Church/State.
posted by mlis at 11:52 PM on September 14, 2008
I think they would also get rid of that pesky wall between Church/State.
posted by mlis at 11:52 PM on September 14, 2008
THE AVERAGE AMERICAN DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU, WHERE YOU'RE FROM OR WHAT YOU THINK. ARE YOU AVAILABLE TO WORK? That's all they care about.
Interesting that American wingnuts seem to care very, very much about this column. 770 vitriolic hate-filled comments worth in fact. I guess it's because it hits on a simple truth: never before have non-Americans been so united against one candidate & pro the other.
posted by dydecker at 12:58 AM on September 15, 2008
Interesting that American wingnuts seem to care very, very much about this column. 770 vitriolic hate-filled comments worth in fact. I guess it's because it hits on a simple truth: never before have non-Americans been so united against one candidate & pro the other.
posted by dydecker at 12:58 AM on September 15, 2008
And that is something that most non-Americans don't get: in our minds, we can live without you. And theoretically, we have for a very long time. In simpler words: the average American couldn't find Australia on a map, never mind give a crap about what happens there. That is the mentality you're up against.
I think you overestimate what most non-Americans think of your compatriots grasp on reality and geography.
posted by jacalata at 1:16 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think you overestimate what most non-Americans think of your compatriots grasp on reality and geography.
posted by jacalata at 1:16 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Not true. Yes, he's old and he's a poor public speaker. But he comes with three massive advantages (two of which he's eagerly sawing off and burning for a little extra heat): 1) He has a tremendous back story, one of the best in political history.
Huh. So now the part of the Keating 5 is "best in political history"?
For low-information voters who tuned into the convention, the emotive details of McCain's POW days were probably a revelation.
When was the Keating 5 mentioned by the GOP? Or, perhaps using the GOP as a fair and balanced news source about the guy heading the top of the GOP ticket is
2) He has a long-standing tradition as a flinty, tough-talking, no-BS kind of guy with a great sense of humor -- a politician for people who generally don't like politicians.
No BS kinda guy? BS means?
Tough talking - I'll give ya that if you concede that his talk has failed to match his actions many times. (Then one has to ask - which is more valuable - talk or action in a politician?)
Humor? This is your 'strong point' - someone can tell a joke? There are comedy clubs fulla presidential timber a-waiting the axe of the voters then.
3) He looks the part: Nice simple name, done his time in Washington, older white guy with a military background.
So this, his looks and name, is your 'top 3' argument?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:41 AM on September 15, 2008
Huh. So now the part of the Keating 5 is "best in political history"?
For low-information voters who tuned into the convention, the emotive details of McCain's POW days were probably a revelation.
When was the Keating 5 mentioned by the GOP? Or, perhaps using the GOP as a fair and balanced news source about the guy heading the top of the GOP ticket is
2) He has a long-standing tradition as a flinty, tough-talking, no-BS kind of guy with a great sense of humor -- a politician for people who generally don't like politicians.
No BS kinda guy? BS means?
Tough talking - I'll give ya that if you concede that his talk has failed to match his actions many times. (Then one has to ask - which is more valuable - talk or action in a politician?)
Humor? This is your 'strong point' - someone can tell a joke? There are comedy clubs fulla presidential timber a-waiting the axe of the voters then.
3) He looks the part: Nice simple name, done his time in Washington, older white guy with a military background.
So this, his looks and name, is your 'top 3' argument?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:41 AM on September 15, 2008
The economy is like a weather-system - anyone who claimed they could fix it would be about as believable as someone who said they could control hurricanes.
In 2025, US aerospace forces can "own the weather" by capitalizing on emerging technologies and focusing development of those technologies to war-fighting applications.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:48 AM on September 15, 2008
In 2025, US aerospace forces can "own the weather" by capitalizing on emerging technologies and focusing development of those technologies to war-fighting applications.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:48 AM on September 15, 2008
Yeah, and how long until he eats a mysteriously poisoned moosburger?
posted by delmoi
If the boffins can make chemicals for dope'n athletes that are undectable, I'm sure that there will be no mystery over the burger - as no one will be able to find the poison to HAVE a mystery over who did it.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:21 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by delmoi
If the boffins can make chemicals for dope'n athletes that are undectable, I'm sure that there will be no mystery over the burger - as no one will be able to find the poison to HAVE a mystery over who did it.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:21 AM on September 15, 2008
Mapguy: I bet Ron Paul ain’t looking so bad about right now.
That explains a lot.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:28 AM on September 15, 2008
That explains a lot.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:28 AM on September 15, 2008
Looks like we'll be needing my long thread reader again.
posted by cillit bang at 5:01 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by cillit bang at 5:01 AM on September 15, 2008
Salon article today: Palin did ban abortion in local hospitals when she was mayor. She was sued on behalf of a woman who had to travel to Seattle to get the procedure.
posted by 8dot3 at 5:11 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by 8dot3 at 5:11 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
For one thing, there's a reason why deception and negativity are usually avoided by campaigns until immediately before elections. As a result of McCains's lies, we're likely to see his numbers begin to drop as polls catch up with the steady erosion of his brand that we've seen in the last few days.
This. Obama's played rope-a-dope in every single campaign of his political life. McCain's people are obsessed with the present, with capturing the daily news cycle, while Obama's staff is patiently putting the pieces together and hitting their marks. Anyone tempted to panic needs to go watch this.
posted by EarBucket at 5:14 AM on September 15, 2008
This. Obama's played rope-a-dope in every single campaign of his political life. McCain's people are obsessed with the present, with capturing the daily news cycle, while Obama's staff is patiently putting the pieces together and hitting their marks. Anyone tempted to panic needs to go watch this.
posted by EarBucket at 5:14 AM on September 15, 2008
8dot3, are you getting those specifics from another source? Salon just says this:
Soon after the book controversy, Bess found himself again at odds with Palin and her fellow evangelicals. In 1996, evangelical churches mounted a vigorous campaign to take over the local hospital's community board and ban abortion from the valley. When they succeeded, Bess and Dr. Susan Lemagie, a Palmer OB-GYN, fought back, filing suit on behalf of a local woman who had been forced to travel to Seattle for an abortion. The case was finally decided by the Alaska Supreme Court, which ruled that the hospital must provide valley women with the abortion option.
It's not even clear that Palin was one of the evangelicals who took over the community board. There certainly was no unilateral declaration of an abortion ban by the mayor (which would not even be possible anyway, as the mayor does not have that power.) And it is not stated that she was named in the lawsuit.
If she was part of the group that pressured and stacked the hospital board, fine, that's one thing. What you've claimed is way beyond that.
posted by maudlin at 5:22 AM on September 15, 2008
Soon after the book controversy, Bess found himself again at odds with Palin and her fellow evangelicals. In 1996, evangelical churches mounted a vigorous campaign to take over the local hospital's community board and ban abortion from the valley. When they succeeded, Bess and Dr. Susan Lemagie, a Palmer OB-GYN, fought back, filing suit on behalf of a local woman who had been forced to travel to Seattle for an abortion. The case was finally decided by the Alaska Supreme Court, which ruled that the hospital must provide valley women with the abortion option.
It's not even clear that Palin was one of the evangelicals who took over the community board. There certainly was no unilateral declaration of an abortion ban by the mayor (which would not even be possible anyway, as the mayor does not have that power.) And it is not stated that she was named in the lawsuit.
If she was part of the group that pressured and stacked the hospital board, fine, that's one thing. What you've claimed is way beyond that.
posted by maudlin at 5:22 AM on September 15, 2008
New Obama ad, titled, "Honor."
Oooh. I am all powerful!
(Or David Plouffe is reading the thread?)
I guess it was an obvious idea. But it's exactly what I pictured -- a single b&w photo of McCain looking down sheepishly (that "humiliated" look I mentioned above) with quotes calling him dishonorable and a liar flashing on the screen.
Great ad, if I do say so myself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:05 AM on September 15, 2008
Oooh. I am all powerful!
(Or David Plouffe is reading the thread?)
I guess it was an obvious idea. But it's exactly what I pictured -- a single b&w photo of McCain looking down sheepishly (that "humiliated" look I mentioned above) with quotes calling him dishonorable and a liar flashing on the screen.
Great ad, if I do say so myself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:05 AM on September 15, 2008
The Times supports the Obama campaign not be directly influencing voters -- no swing voters actually read it
Oh please. Lots of conservatives are more intelligent than the New York Post and read the Times for news, the same way many liberals read the Journal for business news. Anyone who lives in the NYC area who fails to read the Times probably isn't too smart.
posted by caddis at 6:39 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Oh please. Lots of conservatives are more intelligent than the New York Post and read the Times for news, the same way many liberals read the Journal for business news. Anyone who lives in the NYC area who fails to read the Times probably isn't too smart.
posted by caddis at 6:39 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
I guess it was an obvious idea. But it's exactly what I pictured -- a single b&w photo of McCain looking down sheepishly (that "humiliated" look I mentioned above) with quotes calling him dishonorable and a liar flashing on the screen.
Great ad, if I do say so myself.
One reason I think it's a great ad is that it will make McCain mad. McCain is from a Scotch-Irish military background (similar to that chronicled in Jim Webb's Born Fighting), which would make him heavily invested in a conception of himself as a defender of "honor." Anything that threatens that self-conception of honor will probably make McCain go ballistic, which will lead him to make more mistakes. I don't think this is totally coincidental, because Barack Obama's acceptance speech at the Democratic convention included some subtle, dog-whistle references to McCain's fondness for casino gambling ("a plan that would privatize Social Security and gamble your retirement?") and his hotheaded temper ("If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.") that I think were calculated to get John McCain mad. Making McCain mad hurt Barack Obama in the short run, because it led McCain to unleash a barrage of mean-spirited negative ads that reduced Obama's standing in the polls, but it may help Obama in the long run, because the ads can produce a backlash that establishes a narrative about how McCain has sold out his honor, because he's a slave to his temper and his ambitions.
posted by jonp72 at 6:47 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Great ad, if I do say so myself.
One reason I think it's a great ad is that it will make McCain mad. McCain is from a Scotch-Irish military background (similar to that chronicled in Jim Webb's Born Fighting), which would make him heavily invested in a conception of himself as a defender of "honor." Anything that threatens that self-conception of honor will probably make McCain go ballistic, which will lead him to make more mistakes. I don't think this is totally coincidental, because Barack Obama's acceptance speech at the Democratic convention included some subtle, dog-whistle references to McCain's fondness for casino gambling ("a plan that would privatize Social Security and gamble your retirement?") and his hotheaded temper ("If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.") that I think were calculated to get John McCain mad. Making McCain mad hurt Barack Obama in the short run, because it led McCain to unleash a barrage of mean-spirited negative ads that reduced Obama's standing in the polls, but it may help Obama in the long run, because the ads can produce a backlash that establishes a narrative about how McCain has sold out his honor, because he's a slave to his temper and his ambitions.
posted by jonp72 at 6:47 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Sarah Palin, Anointed: Do pentecostals, charismatics, and other evangelicals view Palin as "the anointed one"?
posted by jonp72 at 7:22 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by jonp72 at 7:22 AM on September 15, 2008
McCain wouldn't define the word "honor" in his recent "prickly" interview with Time. Was he unable to because he knows he's running a dishonorable campaign and violating his pledge to "run a respectful campaign based on the issues"?
Nixon is the reason I don't trust Republicans, or at least a big part of it. Nixon's administration, and every Republican administration since, has been actively criminal and abused government power, usually with the same actual criminals involved.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:35 AM on September 15, 2008
That's like me saying Nixon is the reason I don't trust Republicans.
Nixon is the reason I don't trust Republicans, or at least a big part of it. Nixon's administration, and every Republican administration since, has been actively criminal and abused government power, usually with the same actual criminals involved.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:35 AM on September 15, 2008
The economy is like a weather-system - anyone who claimed they could fix it would be about as believable as someone who said they could control hurricanes.
That's absurd of course. You don't think if we elected communists, it would effect the economy? In that case, why wouldn't electing the reverse-communists (steal from the poor and give to the rich) in the republican party effect the economy.
posted by delmoi at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2008
That's absurd of course. You don't think if we elected communists, it would effect the economy? In that case, why wouldn't electing the reverse-communists (steal from the poor and give to the rich) in the republican party effect the economy.
posted by delmoi at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2008
The polling data I'm seeing shows Palin's impact is disproportionately positive amongst white males, a group that hasn't gone as a majority for Democrats since 1964.
I'm on a listserv for Obama supporters in Northern Virginia. One of our posters recently went to a rally for Sarah Palin in Fairfax, Virginia, while keeping silent about his support for Obama. In his write-up of the rally, he said he found at least six white guys who would say that Obama was "sexist," then follow up by talking about how Palin was a total MILF with a hot "mooserack." We can't underestimate the contribution of white guy's libidos to the "Palin effect" on McCain's polling numbers.
posted by jonp72 at 7:49 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm on a listserv for Obama supporters in Northern Virginia. One of our posters recently went to a rally for Sarah Palin in Fairfax, Virginia, while keeping silent about his support for Obama. In his write-up of the rally, he said he found at least six white guys who would say that Obama was "sexist," then follow up by talking about how Palin was a total MILF with a hot "mooserack." We can't underestimate the contribution of white guy's libidos to the "Palin effect" on McCain's polling numbers.
posted by jonp72 at 7:49 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
After the Palin announcement, it seemed like Obama's team was shocked an unsure how to react. Now, it looks like they're getting their footing, and have a firm and effective plan.
posted by drezdn at 7:58 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by drezdn at 7:58 AM on September 15, 2008
One reason conservatives and evangelicals don't like Jimmy Carter is because they felt betrayed by him. They thought they'd get one of their own in the White House, and he'd be essentially what GWB is now. When he turned out to be thoughtful and compassionate, and well, librul, they've demonized him. He's ok when he does that nice housing work, but don't you believe him when he talks about Israel.
So, it's not policies or anything logical like that, it's him
In contrast, Ronald Regan spent 30 years seducing the Religious Right, and it paid off in 1980. He told them what they wanted to hear, and got into office.
I read all this in a book that I can't seem to find now - a companion to the pbs series that I also can't seem to find now. I lent the book to my dad and I can't find the title and he's long since given it away. Memory says it was done by or with Bill Moyers.
But here's a gem from the man himself:
When we read on our currency, ‘In God We Trust,’ whose God do we mean?
posted by lysdexic at 8:14 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, it's not policies or anything logical like that, it's him
In contrast, Ronald Regan spent 30 years seducing the Religious Right, and it paid off in 1980. He told them what they wanted to hear, and got into office.
I read all this in a book that I can't seem to find now - a companion to the pbs series that I also can't seem to find now. I lent the book to my dad and I can't find the title and he's long since given it away. Memory says it was done by or with Bill Moyers.
But here's a gem from the man himself:
When we read on our currency, ‘In God We Trust,’ whose God do we mean?
posted by lysdexic at 8:14 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
duh! Kisses to Younger Brother:
With God On Our Side
posted by lysdexic at 8:22 AM on September 15, 2008
With God On Our Side
posted by lysdexic at 8:22 AM on September 15, 2008
Drezdn, actually, I think Obama was following the OODA loop touted by military strategists as being used by McCain's campaign with far more skill and nuance than the GOP could ever hope to muster. By not reacting suddenly in the heat of emotion but waiting to see McCain's entire hand, Obama could carefully lay his own cards down one by one for maximum impact.
As far as battlefield tactics go, waiting for one's opponent to commit himself fully to a major course of action before responding to it gives one numerous advantages: time to think, time to calculate, time to plan, and time to execute with precision and adroitness -- while the enemy is strategically paralyzed by his own inertia.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:25 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
As far as battlefield tactics go, waiting for one's opponent to commit himself fully to a major course of action before responding to it gives one numerous advantages: time to think, time to calculate, time to plan, and time to execute with precision and adroitness -- while the enemy is strategically paralyzed by his own inertia.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:25 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'm honestly confused about something.
I've been very out of the loop for the last 3-4 weeks, having missed both conventions in their entirety except for hearing Obama's speech on the radio and seeing McCain's (without the sound however). I'm also aware that he picked Palin as his running mate and that it seems everyone acknowledges she lacks experience and might possibly be a dummy. For my part, I'm certain that she's a dummy, but I couldn't provide any documentary support to back that up at the moment. I also haven't been watching or checking the news sites much, nor have I been checking mefi much eaither.
What I don't understand is that when I checked the poll numbers at realclearpolitics.com, they show McCain ahead of Obama and getting a surge sometime in the last couple of weeks.
My question is, did I miss some scandal or something? Is there some dirt about Obama or Biden that the republicans dug up? I really don't understand how he could lead in the polls simply because he picked Pailn, because I would have thought she'd be a liability.
I'm usually up on this stuff, so if anyone could fill me in, that'd be great.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:28 AM on September 15, 2008
I've been very out of the loop for the last 3-4 weeks, having missed both conventions in their entirety except for hearing Obama's speech on the radio and seeing McCain's (without the sound however). I'm also aware that he picked Palin as his running mate and that it seems everyone acknowledges she lacks experience and might possibly be a dummy. For my part, I'm certain that she's a dummy, but I couldn't provide any documentary support to back that up at the moment. I also haven't been watching or checking the news sites much, nor have I been checking mefi much eaither.
What I don't understand is that when I checked the poll numbers at realclearpolitics.com, they show McCain ahead of Obama and getting a surge sometime in the last couple of weeks.
My question is, did I miss some scandal or something? Is there some dirt about Obama or Biden that the republicans dug up? I really don't understand how he could lead in the polls simply because he picked Pailn, because I would have thought she'd be a liability.
I'm usually up on this stuff, so if anyone could fill me in, that'd be great.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:28 AM on September 15, 2008
Agreed, lysdexic; Andrew J. Bacevich briefly touches on Carter's prescience and contrasts him against Reagan's irresponsibly profligacy in this interview with Terri Gross (Around the 31:00 minute mark, but the whole interview is pretty good.).
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:29 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:29 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
My question is, did I miss some scandal or something? Is there some dirt about Obama or Biden that the republicans dug up? I really don't understand how he could lead in the polls simply because he picked Pailn, because I would have thought she'd be a liability.
This is the post-convention, post-Palin bump. It has been a larger bump than most expected due to the combination of extremely negative and deceptive campaigning from McCain and the culture war revival of the Palin pick. But this is probably the best it's going to get for McCain.
posted by effwerd at 8:48 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
This is the post-convention, post-Palin bump. It has been a larger bump than most expected due to the combination of extremely negative and deceptive campaigning from McCain and the culture war revival of the Palin pick. But this is probably the best it's going to get for McCain.
posted by effwerd at 8:48 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maudlin: Blergh, that's what I get for blindly posting. No, I have no other sources on that one, but I will be doing some digging. Point taken.
posted by 8dot3 at 8:49 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by 8dot3 at 8:49 AM on September 15, 2008
After the Palin announcement, it seemed like Obama's team was shocked an unsure how to react. Now, it looks like they're getting their footing, and have a firm and effective plan.
This constant focus on determining who's "winning" by watching the news has gotten a bit silly. The news cycles are determined by who the news Orgs choose to cover, which is in turn based on how "interesting" the candidates are. If McCain gets in a good insult, like with the "celeb" ad, does that really effect anything, or is that just what the media wants to talk about?
And anyway, why should they have reacted before they knew anything about Palin? And just to clarify they did send out a press release bashing her for being inexperienced before backtracking and congratulating her.
posted by delmoi at 9:10 AM on September 15, 2008
This constant focus on determining who's "winning" by watching the news has gotten a bit silly. The news cycles are determined by who the news Orgs choose to cover, which is in turn based on how "interesting" the candidates are. If McCain gets in a good insult, like with the "celeb" ad, does that really effect anything, or is that just what the media wants to talk about?
And anyway, why should they have reacted before they knew anything about Palin? And just to clarify they did send out a press release bashing her for being inexperienced before backtracking and congratulating her.
posted by delmoi at 9:10 AM on September 15, 2008
What's odd about Carter is that, though his technocratic, micro-managerial style was ill-suited to the Executive, he was the last President that spoke truth to the American people as it concerned shared sacrifice and the true meaning of patriotism... and he's been skewered for it non-stop for nearly 30 years. This became a refrain of every presidential candidate since then: do not tell the truth about the economic position of the US under any circumstances.
The United States became a debtor nation for the first time during the Ford Administration, thanks, in large part to the enormously expensive Vietnam War. If any of you remember the late 70s, it felt like the country was coming apart at the seams. Heavy industry and manufacturing were dying, crime in the inner cities skyrocketing, and the nation's infrastructure was crumbling).
Reagan's people then launched an orgy of borrowing and spending (but not investing and retrenching the economy, but enabling its transformation into a service economy, the ultimate ponzi scheme) whose effects are only now being felt severely.
When I heard hardcore Christians go on about how much they "hate" Carter, I have to laugh and ask myself how they will account for themselves on their own day of reckoning. (For my own part, I'll see them in hell... but I've always been curious how the jingoistic, me-first, divisive politics of the far right meshed with the collectivist, compassionate message of the Gospels)
posted by psmealey at 9:22 AM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
The United States became a debtor nation for the first time during the Ford Administration, thanks, in large part to the enormously expensive Vietnam War. If any of you remember the late 70s, it felt like the country was coming apart at the seams. Heavy industry and manufacturing were dying, crime in the inner cities skyrocketing, and the nation's infrastructure was crumbling).
Reagan's people then launched an orgy of borrowing and spending (but not investing and retrenching the economy, but enabling its transformation into a service economy, the ultimate ponzi scheme) whose effects are only now being felt severely.
When I heard hardcore Christians go on about how much they "hate" Carter, I have to laugh and ask myself how they will account for themselves on their own day of reckoning. (For my own part, I'll see them in hell... but I've always been curious how the jingoistic, me-first, divisive politics of the far right meshed with the collectivist, compassionate message of the Gospels)
posted by psmealey at 9:22 AM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
Greenwald on the new book about Cheney: What illegal "things" was the government doing in 2001-2004?
It would be nice if some journalist would ask Palin about her opinion on warrantless wiretapping, assuming she ever does another real interview.
posted by homunculus at 9:48 AM on September 15, 2008
It would be nice if some journalist would ask Palin about her opinion on warrantless wiretapping, assuming she ever does another real interview.
posted by homunculus at 9:48 AM on September 15, 2008
Do pentecostals, charismatics, and other evangelicals view Palin as "the anointed one"?
Apparently the neocons do.
posted by homunculus at 9:51 AM on September 15, 2008
Apparently the neocons do.
posted by homunculus at 9:51 AM on September 15, 2008
Really, really strong speech by Biden today. I hope this is the direction the Obama campaign is going in.
Governor Palin says all senators do is vote. Well, just imagine what the country would look like if John’s votes had become the law of the land.
In John McCain’s America, we wouldn’t guarantee that more of energy would come from wind, solar, and other renewables. The minimum wage would still be $3.35 an hour. There would have been 100,000 fewer police on the beat. There would have been no national domestic violence hotline for the 1.5 million women who were in crisis and needed somewhere to turn.
Over 160,000 members of the Guard and Reserve who answered their country’s call and served more than one tour in Iraq or Afghanistan would get no credit towards an education for their additional sacrifice. Fewer parents would be able to afford to send their kids to college. And women who were discriminated against on the basis of pay would more difficulty making their case. Thank God that’s not the America we live in.
posted by neroli at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
Governor Palin says all senators do is vote. Well, just imagine what the country would look like if John’s votes had become the law of the land.
In John McCain’s America, we wouldn’t guarantee that more of energy would come from wind, solar, and other renewables. The minimum wage would still be $3.35 an hour. There would have been 100,000 fewer police on the beat. There would have been no national domestic violence hotline for the 1.5 million women who were in crisis and needed somewhere to turn.
Over 160,000 members of the Guard and Reserve who answered their country’s call and served more than one tour in Iraq or Afghanistan would get no credit towards an education for their additional sacrifice. Fewer parents would be able to afford to send their kids to college. And women who were discriminated against on the basis of pay would more difficulty making their case. Thank God that’s not the America we live in.
posted by neroli at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
No, this is This Is Your Nation on White Privilege.
:)
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:12 AM on September 15, 2008
:)
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:12 AM on September 15, 2008
Since the Palin threads, I never check the front page anymore. oops.
posted by lunit at 10:17 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by lunit at 10:17 AM on September 15, 2008
Can anyone explain the Scenario Analyses in the lower right hand corner of http://www.fivethirtyeight.com, below the ROI index? I can understand the scenarios themselves, obviously, but I can't tell what the percentages mean or how they're gathered. Is it just polled data? I.e. 21.87% of people polled think "Obama will lose OH but win the election"?
posted by Pantengliopoli at 10:46 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by Pantengliopoli at 10:46 AM on September 15, 2008
Roveian Push-Poll Targets FL Voters to Smear Obama
posted by homunculus at 10:50 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by homunculus at 10:50 AM on September 15, 2008
Pantengliopoli: Their simulation methodology is a little complex.
From a weighted average of the polls in each state, there is a baseline for that state.
Next, if you look at the demographics of a given state (say, OH) you can that its polling tends to move with states "like it" (such as MI, PA) more than states not "like it" (such as AL, GA, OR). You can also see how its polling tends to move with the national polling. What Nate then does is simulate a bunch (10,000 per day) of movements in the electorate demographics and see how those would affect each state. For each simulated movement, you have a possible outcome of the election. Each possible outcome is examined for a) the EVs b) popular vote c) those scenarios etc.
How does he come up with the movements to simulate? He's looked at datasets from previous elections with regression analysis. That doesn't mean that they're right, just that they're plausible in a way.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
From a weighted average of the polls in each state, there is a baseline for that state.
Next, if you look at the demographics of a given state (say, OH) you can that its polling tends to move with states "like it" (such as MI, PA) more than states not "like it" (such as AL, GA, OR). You can also see how its polling tends to move with the national polling. What Nate then does is simulate a bunch (10,000 per day) of movements in the electorate demographics and see how those would affect each state. For each simulated movement, you have a possible outcome of the election. Each possible outcome is examined for a) the EVs b) popular vote c) those scenarios etc.
How does he come up with the movements to simulate? He's looked at datasets from previous elections with regression analysis. That doesn't mean that they're right, just that they're plausible in a way.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
Really, really strong speech by Biden today.
Not so strong speech by McCain today: "The Fundamentals Of Our Economy Are Strong"
posted by homunculus at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2008
Not so strong speech by McCain today: "The Fundamentals Of Our Economy Are Strong"
posted by homunculus at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2008
Can anyone explain the Scenario Analyses in the lower right hand corner of http://www.fivethirtyeight.com, below the ROI index?
538 runs ten thousand simulations based on their latest numbers each day. Those percentages reflect the number of times that scenario occurred in the simulations. So in this case, the percentage is the number of times Obama lost Ohio (6992 out of 10000) divided into the number of times he lost Ohio but still won the election (1529 out of 6992). 21.87%.
posted by EarBucket at 10:56 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
538 runs ten thousand simulations based on their latest numbers each day. Those percentages reflect the number of times that scenario occurred in the simulations. So in this case, the percentage is the number of times Obama lost Ohio (6992 out of 10000) divided into the number of times he lost Ohio but still won the election (1529 out of 6992). 21.87%.
posted by EarBucket at 10:56 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
Meat-Robot and EarBucket, thanks -- that makes more sense now.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by Pantengliopoli at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2008
Whoa, the fivethirtyeight.com numbers are looking rough.
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on September 15, 2008
Artw: Contrary to Nate's inclination, they aren't in any way adjusting for the convention bounce. The sims went from 70-odd% Obama to high-50s% McCain in a week. Nate himself thinks that you need to wait a bit before polls become believable again. If you look at the electorally-significant states, the polls haven't been too bad for Obama. It's the national trackers which have driven a great deal of the swing.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:35 AM on September 15, 2008
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:35 AM on September 15, 2008
Waiting it out is doing my nervers no good whatsoever.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
If it helps, there are factors which polling doesn't do a good job of catching. For example, in NC democrats have gained 160,000 in voter registration over republicans. That's probably not going to win NC (their BOE has obsessive and easy to access numbers, which is why I used them), but there are similar results in closer states. Most pollsters also use a likely-voter model, which Obama's ground game hopes to change (ie, get turnout among youth, minorities).
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:20 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:20 PM on September 15, 2008
Oh, and that 160,000 is since January.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:21 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:21 PM on September 15, 2008
Do pentecostals, charismatics, and other evangelicals view Palin as "the anointed one"?
Apparently the neocons do.
That's not a coincidence. The neoconservatives were always stronger as an intellectual movement than as a political movement with a base of mass support. The only way they get that mass support is through making coalitions with the Christian Right, because the two groups share the goals of a hawkishly nationalist foreign policy, a confrontational stance toward the Muslim world, and unquestioning acceptance of Israel. Some neoconservatives are positively drooling over the Sarah Palin sideshow, because it allows them to use a set of "noble lies" about motherhood and small-town values to prevail in a foreign policy debate that they can't win on the merits.
posted by jonp72 at 12:34 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Apparently the neocons do.
That's not a coincidence. The neoconservatives were always stronger as an intellectual movement than as a political movement with a base of mass support. The only way they get that mass support is through making coalitions with the Christian Right, because the two groups share the goals of a hawkishly nationalist foreign policy, a confrontational stance toward the Muslim world, and unquestioning acceptance of Israel. Some neoconservatives are positively drooling over the Sarah Palin sideshow, because it allows them to use a set of "noble lies" about motherhood and small-town values to prevail in a foreign policy debate that they can't win on the merits.
posted by jonp72 at 12:34 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
In the interest of truth and fairness:
-Biden did mention Palin today, multiple times in fact.
-And I don't agree that polling has been "not too bad" for Obama since the conventions. I'm not a doomsayer and I expect the numbers to pick up in the coming weeks as well, but when you're seeing a negative spread in Ohio, double-digit GOP advantages in strategically useful wildcard states like MT and NC, and Obama up by only 5 in New freaking York, I don't see any reason to lean back comfortably, not for now at least.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:39 PM on September 15, 2008
-Biden did mention Palin today, multiple times in fact.
-And I don't agree that polling has been "not too bad" for Obama since the conventions. I'm not a doomsayer and I expect the numbers to pick up in the coming weeks as well, but when you're seeing a negative spread in Ohio, double-digit GOP advantages in strategically useful wildcard states like MT and NC, and Obama up by only 5 in New freaking York, I don't see any reason to lean back comfortably, not for now at least.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:39 PM on September 15, 2008
Waiting it out is doing my nerves no good whatsoever.
Volunteer! Seriously, I can't stand the waiting either, nor the knowledge that if we had only done a little bit more in 2000 we could've been waving goodbye to a President Gore right about now (He lost NH and its delegates by only 6000 votes). It drives me nuts to just read polls and news stories and be consumed with hope and concern without actually doing anything. Getting involved feels a lot better. Give your local campaign office a call - now's the time - they have events that you can help with, you can call or canvass or check lists or do data entry. It feels really good to be in a room with a bunch of likeminded, hardworking, hopeful people as opposed to being alone with TV and fretting the evening away. Plus, they often have pizza. If you don't want to leave home, Obama has a cool thing on his website (look for "get involved" or "volunteer" or some such link) where you register and then get a pre-selected voterlist of 25 neighbors that you can call to explain your support and discover whether they're inclined to support or volunteer. You can do it any time of day (though of course, reasonable phone hours) and in bits and pieces, from the comfort of your own home.
posted by Miko at 12:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
Volunteer! Seriously, I can't stand the waiting either, nor the knowledge that if we had only done a little bit more in 2000 we could've been waving goodbye to a President Gore right about now (He lost NH and its delegates by only 6000 votes). It drives me nuts to just read polls and news stories and be consumed with hope and concern without actually doing anything. Getting involved feels a lot better. Give your local campaign office a call - now's the time - they have events that you can help with, you can call or canvass or check lists or do data entry. It feels really good to be in a room with a bunch of likeminded, hardworking, hopeful people as opposed to being alone with TV and fretting the evening away. Plus, they often have pizza. If you don't want to leave home, Obama has a cool thing on his website (look for "get involved" or "volunteer" or some such link) where you register and then get a pre-selected voterlist of 25 neighbors that you can call to explain your support and discover whether they're inclined to support or volunteer. You can do it any time of day (though of course, reasonable phone hours) and in bits and pieces, from the comfort of your own home.
posted by Miko at 12:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
Sarah handled Charlie just fine; I doubt she'd have trouble with Putin.
What do you mean, Vladdie?
posted by jonp72 at 12:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
What do you mean, Vladdie?
posted by jonp72 at 12:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
washburn : (One final note: did you see in the Times that now, a couple months before the election, that Bush has suddenly authorized US troops to go into Pakistan looking for Bin Laden and his associates? The odds of a real "October Surprise" are looking a little higher.)
This would be a pretty big surprise, but not one that necessarily works well for the Republican machine. I could see people perceiving Bin Laden in custody as meaning that America is no longer at risk from terrorists, and that takes that particular boogieman away from the Right as a method of scaring people into voting for them.
And fear is really the currency of the Republican party.
posted by quin at 1:41 PM on September 15, 2008
This would be a pretty big surprise, but not one that necessarily works well for the Republican machine. I could see people perceiving Bin Laden in custody as meaning that America is no longer at risk from terrorists, and that takes that particular boogieman away from the Right as a method of scaring people into voting for them.
And fear is really the currency of the Republican party.
posted by quin at 1:41 PM on September 15, 2008
WTF is up with Washington state? Even given that Eastern Washington is going to lean republican, i'm pretty sure that it always has done without putting the state in play.
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah handled Charlie just fine; I doubt she'd have trouble with Putin.
Sarah Palin could "handle" Charles Gibson, because professional American men (like Charles Gibson) are simultaneously expected to be both feminist and chivalrous to women at the same time. In Putin's case, neither feminism nor chivalry would deter him from acting like a sexist rat bastard in pouncing on Palin's ignorance of basic foreign policy questions.
posted by jonp72 at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2008
Sarah Palin could "handle" Charles Gibson, because professional American men (like Charles Gibson) are simultaneously expected to be both feminist and chivalrous to women at the same time. In Putin's case, neither feminism nor chivalry would deter him from acting like a sexist rat bastard in pouncing on Palin's ignorance of basic foreign policy questions.
posted by jonp72 at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2008
This is unrelated to the thread as a whole, but it kind of just bubbled up based on what I have been thinking about Palin since she was named as the VP pick. I can finally put a name on why we hate her so much, and why a certain type of person in this country is so excited about her pick.
Sarah Palin is white trash. She is white trash with money, but she is white trash all the same. Assembly of God church, hunting, snow mobiles, small town, hockey mom, pregnant teen daughter, Oxycontin sniffing son who joined the military, too many damn kids, good-for-nothing husband, brother-in-law custody drama. This is trailer park shit. Just as someone said in THE THREAD "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!" She is nothing more than white trash. And that is why she got picked. This is identity politics at its worst. McCain wants to capture his base's vote: poor white trash. And man are they eating it up. It is having the exact effect that he wanted it to have. White trash look at her and see themselves and they are pumped. And that is why we hate her. Because we have seen our country taken over by poor ignorant white trash since Nixon's Southern strategy and this is just the latest most blatant example of pandering to the worst type of person.
Why would we allow these people to pick our leaders? They think the earth is 6,000 years old because they were behind the school smoking Pall Malls during science class and they don't know no better. We are either current or former Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans and other respectable religions. They grew up in families too drunk or ugly to go to church, and learned about religion from Televangelists in shiny suits with wives with tranny make-up, so now as adults they go to non denominational tongue-talking mega-churches where they can be told anything, because the poor damn methheads never read the bible a day in their life so what do they know about what the real message of Christianity is. They don't give a damn about making America a better place. They just want their guns and their Budweiser and their wrestling on TV. They have no understanding of American democracy or civil rights or history or anything, the dumb fucking bumpkins. They want a king to come in and make the towelheads and the beaners and all the rest understand their place, and who cares if it infringes civil rights cause they don't really know what those are. America! Love it or leave it!
This is also why we hate Bush so much. Sure he is really an east coast blueblood, but he puts on the hick accent and cuts brush and pretends to be a good ol' boy. But at least we know he is one of us. Palin is the real thing! White trash in the white house! It is just too galling. She is the culmination of the last 40 years of Republican strategy. The George Wills and the William F. Buckleys must be kicking themselves. They got in bed with Bubba and all they had to do was promise not to do anything to help the blacks and they could just count on the rednecks to go and vote for them every 4 years and then crawl back to the shotgun shack that they sat around in drooling and popping out more babies than they could feed. The republican elite could then put toxic waste dumps in Bubba's backyard and ship his job overseas and feed him tainted food and give themselves tax cut after tax cut while keeping him poor, but Bubba put up with it cause the republicans kept promising him that any day now they were going to get around to stopping the evil liberals from killing those poor babies (silly Bubba, thinking that a clump of cells was a baby and crying for it in his warehouse church. Reminds one of that gorilla that would pet that little kitten). But now Bubba, in his infinite ignorance, is actually cottoning on to the fact that the republican party has been tricking him for the last 40 years and he ain't voting for no McCain if he picks a jew or a Pennsylvanian as a running mate. Bubba wants to come to dinner, and come in the front door! Oh, the horror!
That is why we good middle class Metafilterians hate her and why some love her. "Hey, I got a pregnant teenage daughter and don't know shit about the world I live in too! Yee Haw! I'm gonna vote for her! Maw, turn off Dancing with the Stars and get the PT Cruiser pulled around! We got to go put Cletus in the white house!"
Look in your heart Metafilter and embrace the hate. It will make you strong!
posted by ND¢ at 1:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [18 favorites]
Sarah Palin is white trash. She is white trash with money, but she is white trash all the same. Assembly of God church, hunting, snow mobiles, small town, hockey mom, pregnant teen daughter, Oxycontin sniffing son who joined the military, too many damn kids, good-for-nothing husband, brother-in-law custody drama. This is trailer park shit. Just as someone said in THE THREAD "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!" She is nothing more than white trash. And that is why she got picked. This is identity politics at its worst. McCain wants to capture his base's vote: poor white trash. And man are they eating it up. It is having the exact effect that he wanted it to have. White trash look at her and see themselves and they are pumped. And that is why we hate her. Because we have seen our country taken over by poor ignorant white trash since Nixon's Southern strategy and this is just the latest most blatant example of pandering to the worst type of person.
Why would we allow these people to pick our leaders? They think the earth is 6,000 years old because they were behind the school smoking Pall Malls during science class and they don't know no better. We are either current or former Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans and other respectable religions. They grew up in families too drunk or ugly to go to church, and learned about religion from Televangelists in shiny suits with wives with tranny make-up, so now as adults they go to non denominational tongue-talking mega-churches where they can be told anything, because the poor damn methheads never read the bible a day in their life so what do they know about what the real message of Christianity is. They don't give a damn about making America a better place. They just want their guns and their Budweiser and their wrestling on TV. They have no understanding of American democracy or civil rights or history or anything, the dumb fucking bumpkins. They want a king to come in and make the towelheads and the beaners and all the rest understand their place, and who cares if it infringes civil rights cause they don't really know what those are. America! Love it or leave it!
This is also why we hate Bush so much. Sure he is really an east coast blueblood, but he puts on the hick accent and cuts brush and pretends to be a good ol' boy. But at least we know he is one of us. Palin is the real thing! White trash in the white house! It is just too galling. She is the culmination of the last 40 years of Republican strategy. The George Wills and the William F. Buckleys must be kicking themselves. They got in bed with Bubba and all they had to do was promise not to do anything to help the blacks and they could just count on the rednecks to go and vote for them every 4 years and then crawl back to the shotgun shack that they sat around in drooling and popping out more babies than they could feed. The republican elite could then put toxic waste dumps in Bubba's backyard and ship his job overseas and feed him tainted food and give themselves tax cut after tax cut while keeping him poor, but Bubba put up with it cause the republicans kept promising him that any day now they were going to get around to stopping the evil liberals from killing those poor babies (silly Bubba, thinking that a clump of cells was a baby and crying for it in his warehouse church. Reminds one of that gorilla that would pet that little kitten). But now Bubba, in his infinite ignorance, is actually cottoning on to the fact that the republican party has been tricking him for the last 40 years and he ain't voting for no McCain if he picks a jew or a Pennsylvanian as a running mate. Bubba wants to come to dinner, and come in the front door! Oh, the horror!
That is why we good middle class Metafilterians hate her and why some love her. "Hey, I got a pregnant teenage daughter and don't know shit about the world I live in too! Yee Haw! I'm gonna vote for her! Maw, turn off Dancing with the Stars and get the PT Cruiser pulled around! We got to go put Cletus in the white house!"
Look in your heart Metafilter and embrace the hate. It will make you strong!
posted by ND¢ at 1:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [18 favorites]
ND¢ - That would certainly seem to be teh Republican parties view of things. We can always hope they're wrong, eh?
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on September 15, 2008
I was all set to pull out the Howard Dean Confederate flag stuff, then I noticed who posted.
Hat's off man, hat's off.
posted by lysdexic at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2008
Hat's off man, hat's off.
posted by lysdexic at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2008
Official at Center of Trooper Gate: Sarah Palin Lied to ABC
I blame the media. She wouldn't have had to tell an untruth if Gibson hadn't been so darned mean.
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
I blame the media. She wouldn't have had to tell an untruth if Gibson hadn't been so darned mean.
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
I love how sky-is-falling democrats are worried when things are not as close as they like in Montana and North Carolina, states which haven't gone democratic for decades.
they don't realize that it is the sky-is-falling fear that causes us to lose. Get some balls people. What good does spreading fear do? It hurts the cause. Republicans vote for emotional effects. Democrats lose because they fear being emotionally hurt by a loss and they are, again and again.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:26 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
they don't realize that it is the sky-is-falling fear that causes us to lose. Get some balls people. What good does spreading fear do? It hurts the cause. Republicans vote for emotional effects. Democrats lose because they fear being emotionally hurt by a loss and they are, again and again.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:26 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
"We need to go on offense. Our theme is that Barack Obama is too old for the job and that the public needs a younger, more vigorous brand of leadership. OK, here are some scripts we're looking at."
"Wait, wait, wait. Wait. Do you need time off? I can give you a few days. Take some time. You've earned it."
"No, Senator. If you'll just look at these scripts --"
"Steve, April Fool's Day is seven months off. You want me to say Obama is too old to be president and I'm not?"
"Yes."
"I'm younger than Obama?"
"Not younger, exactly. More youthful. You have more, um, youthiness. What is 72? That's just a numeral. Same two digits as 27. It's ink on a driver's license. You have the adventurous spirit of youth. You're the innovator, the reformer. You may be older in years. You're older technically. But you're younger in qualifications. That's the age that really matters. Qualificationswise, you're entering your prime, and you have the experience to prove it. You're like Reagan, although you're even younger, though not technically.
"Whereas your opponent? Tired ideas. 'Bitter.' Same old fresh face as in 2004. His best days are already behind him and he never accomplished anything. Peel back the public-relations front and the media hype, and he's over the hill."
[satire]
posted by neroli at 2:29 PM on September 15, 2008
"Wait, wait, wait. Wait. Do you need time off? I can give you a few days. Take some time. You've earned it."
"No, Senator. If you'll just look at these scripts --"
"Steve, April Fool's Day is seven months off. You want me to say Obama is too old to be president and I'm not?"
"Yes."
"I'm younger than Obama?"
"Not younger, exactly. More youthful. You have more, um, youthiness. What is 72? That's just a numeral. Same two digits as 27. It's ink on a driver's license. You have the adventurous spirit of youth. You're the innovator, the reformer. You may be older in years. You're older technically. But you're younger in qualifications. That's the age that really matters. Qualificationswise, you're entering your prime, and you have the experience to prove it. You're like Reagan, although you're even younger, though not technically.
"Whereas your opponent? Tired ideas. 'Bitter.' Same old fresh face as in 2004. His best days are already behind him and he never accomplished anything. Peel back the public-relations front and the media hype, and he's over the hill."
[satire]
posted by neroli at 2:29 PM on September 15, 2008
WTF is up with Washington state? Even given that Eastern Washington is going to lean republican, i'm pretty sure that it always has done without putting the state in play.
I suspect it's three things: Its proximity to Alaska, its relatively low black population, and a significant dissatisfaction with its current Democratic leadership. But I also suspect than when it's all said and done, Washington state's electoral votes will go to Obama by a comfortable margin.
posted by Balonious Assault at 2:43 PM on September 15, 2008
I suspect it's three things: Its proximity to Alaska, its relatively low black population, and a significant dissatisfaction with its current Democratic leadership. But I also suspect than when it's all said and done, Washington state's electoral votes will go to Obama by a comfortable margin.
posted by Balonious Assault at 2:43 PM on September 15, 2008
McCain, Obama & Wall Street "Reform": The Good, Bad & Ugly
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on September 15, 2008
There you go again!
Palin cut funding for Alaska Special Olympics.
Palin cut funding for Alaska Special Olympics.
“Campaigning in Colorado today, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) promised renewed attention to kids with special needs. She declared, ‘Ever since I took the chief executive’s job up North I pushed for more funding for students with special needs,’ and cited her own family’s experience with the issue. [video | 01:31]posted by ericb at 3:18 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
It’s a stretch to say she ‘pushed’ for any policy improvements. Though Palin did sign a law increasing special education funding in Alaska, ‘she had no role whatsoever’ in its development, according to the bill’s author, Rep. Mike Hawker (R). Moreover, as governor, Palin vetoed $275,000 in Special Olympics Alaska funds (Page 100, SB 221 with vetoes), slashing the organization’s operating budget in half.”
Man, are interviews across the country going to get tougher as common resume padding techniques get exposed? Nit that I'd ever inflate my role in a project or handwave like crazy when called on it.
posted by Artw at 3:27 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by Artw at 3:27 PM on September 15, 2008
non denominational tongue-talking mega-churches where they can be told anything, because the poor damn methheads never read the bible a day in their life so what do they know about what the real message of Christianity is.
I think someone needs to take a day or two and start googling non-denominational. And realizing that while that someone was busy doing whatever they do, that these sorts of churches have become the mainstream. And are full of people from all walks of life to include middle class and upper-middle class along with solid working class and the poor.
If the Democrats think insulting this group of individuals is a good thing, they are making a major miscalculation. Because there are Democrats who go to these churches, and independents as well, who might not appreciate the characterization.
posted by konolia at 4:02 PM on September 15, 2008
I think someone needs to take a day or two and start googling non-denominational. And realizing that while that someone was busy doing whatever they do, that these sorts of churches have become the mainstream. And are full of people from all walks of life to include middle class and upper-middle class along with solid working class and the poor.
If the Democrats think insulting this group of individuals is a good thing, they are making a major miscalculation. Because there are Democrats who go to these churches, and independents as well, who might not appreciate the characterization.
posted by konolia at 4:02 PM on September 15, 2008
Sarah Palin could "handle" Charles Gibson, because professional American men (like Charles Gibson) are simultaneously expected to be both feminist and chivalrous to women at the same time. In Putin's case, neither feminism nor chivalry would deter him from acting like a sexist rat bastard in pouncing on Palin's ignorance of basic foreign policy questions
First, I doubt she'll be ignorant. Second, we women are very used to dealing with "sexist rat bastards" so, no problem.
posted by konolia at 4:05 PM on September 15, 2008
First, I doubt she'll be ignorant. Second, we women are very used to dealing with "sexist rat bastards" so, no problem.
posted by konolia at 4:05 PM on September 15, 2008
we can live without you
without the Aussies, yes. without the Chinese who own your monster debt, no, not really.
posted by matteo at 4:07 PM on September 15, 2008
without the Aussies, yes. without the Chinese who own your monster debt, no, not really.
posted by matteo at 4:07 PM on September 15, 2008
these sorts of churches have become the mainstream.
No, they haven't. Not by a long shot.
I do however agree that it's important to show tolerance for all faiths, and it would be really unwise to mock anyone based on what house of worship they go to. Fortunately, I'm not seeing either candidate openly or even subtley mock the faiths of others, so it's not really an issue.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:22 PM on September 15, 2008
No, they haven't. Not by a long shot.
I do however agree that it's important to show tolerance for all faiths, and it would be really unwise to mock anyone based on what house of worship they go to. Fortunately, I'm not seeing either candidate openly or even subtley mock the faiths of others, so it's not really an issue.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:22 PM on September 15, 2008
# “First, I doubt she'll be ignorant.”
She is ignorant now. What do you think will change that in the next 7 or 8 weeks? From the NYT article:
posted by ijoshua at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
She is ignorant now. What do you think will change that in the next 7 or 8 weeks? From the NYT article:
Not deeply versed in policy, Ms. Palin skipped some candidate forums; at others, she flipped through hand-written, color-coded index cards strategically placed behind her nameplate.She’ll be the Cliffs Notes version of Dick Cheney. Or, as I read earler today, she’ll be like Dick Cheney, only evil. And ignorant.
posted by ijoshua at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
First, I doubt she'll be ignorant. Second, we women are very used to dealing with "sexist rat bastards" so, no problem.
I call bullshit. If Hillary Clinton had displayed a similarly ignorant response on a foreign policy question with a coquettish "What do you mean?", you'd be the first to say that she was unqualified to defend America.
posted by jonp72 at 4:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
I call bullshit. If Hillary Clinton had displayed a similarly ignorant response on a foreign policy question with a coquettish "What do you mean?", you'd be the first to say that she was unqualified to defend America.
posted by jonp72 at 4:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
"What do you mean?"
The line is "In what respect, Charlie?" Had she said something as honest as "what do you mean" when asked about something the meaning of which she could not produce, that would have been a much less mind-wrenchingly dismaying moment.
posted by cortex at 5:02 PM on September 15, 2008
The line is "In what respect, Charlie?" Had she said something as honest as "what do you mean" when asked about something the meaning of which she could not produce, that would have been a much less mind-wrenchingly dismaying moment.
posted by cortex at 5:02 PM on September 15, 2008
Other than his famously being imprisoned by the Vietcong for almost six years, ...
psmealey, I'm going to correct this minor error with no condescencion or disrespect meant, just because it bothers me every time I see it and this is the first place I can respond :)
The Viet Cong (aka VC, Victor Charlie, Charlie) were the South Vietnamese communist army; it was their allies the North Vietnamese who captured and imprisoned McCain.
posted by nicwolff at 5:03 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
psmealey, I'm going to correct this minor error with no condescencion or disrespect meant, just because it bothers me every time I see it and this is the first place I can respond :)
The Viet Cong (aka VC, Victor Charlie, Charlie) were the South Vietnamese communist army; it was their allies the North Vietnamese who captured and imprisoned McCain.
posted by nicwolff at 5:03 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
I do however agree that it's important to show tolerance for all faiths, and it would be really unwise to mock anyone based on what house of worship they go to.
You sure about that? There are churches in the US and elsewhere, for instance, that have (and MOST had at one time) racial supremacy as a core belief.
Why is it that any other mode of philosophical thought is open to criticism except those that have some sort of invisible being floating on a cloud somewhere? (Well. Except Scientology.)
I'm sorry but religion does not get an automatic bye on mockery. Especially when the religious seem so keen on sectarian mocking— and killing— themselves.
When you set aside any identity group as beyond reproach you will inevitably get a fortress that shields corruption. It's the same scam with "patriotism." Only with an infallible God instead of the flag. There for it's potentially MORE dangerous.
And BTW people congratulations on yet again making another Palin/McCain thread about the frigg'n religious troll. Way to go.
posted by tkchrist at 5:16 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
You sure about that? There are churches in the US and elsewhere, for instance, that have (and MOST had at one time) racial supremacy as a core belief.
Why is it that any other mode of philosophical thought is open to criticism except those that have some sort of invisible being floating on a cloud somewhere? (Well. Except Scientology.)
I'm sorry but religion does not get an automatic bye on mockery. Especially when the religious seem so keen on sectarian mocking— and killing— themselves.
When you set aside any identity group as beyond reproach you will inevitably get a fortress that shields corruption. It's the same scam with "patriotism." Only with an infallible God instead of the flag. There for it's potentially MORE dangerous.
And BTW people congratulations on yet again making another Palin/McCain thread about the frigg'n religious troll. Way to go.
posted by tkchrist at 5:16 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
Sarah Palin's stated objective is to criminalize abortion so that a rape victim would be forced to bear her rapist's child.
It's also the Republican Party platform, which "will not allow for exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:17 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
You sure about that? There are churches in the US and elsewhere, for instance, that have (and MOST had at one time) racial supremacy as a core belief.
Right, I'm not talking about The Church of Jesus Christ, Christian here. There are obvious exceptions. But I personally don't give a shit if people want to handle snakes, speak in tongues or run barefoot over hot coals as a part of their religious services. I was just trying to burn the "well the Dems better not mock the megachurch" strawman.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:21 PM on September 15, 2008
Right, I'm not talking about The Church of Jesus Christ, Christian here. There are obvious exceptions. But I personally don't give a shit if people want to handle snakes, speak in tongues or run barefoot over hot coals as a part of their religious services. I was just trying to burn the "well the Dems better not mock the megachurch" strawman.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:21 PM on September 15, 2008
If the Democrats think insulting this group of individuals is a good thing
it's all about shame, with you, isn't it -- how big an inferiority complex you guys have? if the libruls are so cruel and misguided as you say they are, what the fuck you care about what they think about you? God knows I don't give a shit what you think of me -- if anything, I take your disapproval as a badge of honor.
posted by matteo at 5:22 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
it's all about shame, with you, isn't it -- how big an inferiority complex you guys have? if the libruls are so cruel and misguided as you say they are, what the fuck you care about what they think about you? God knows I don't give a shit what you think of me -- if anything, I take your disapproval as a badge of honor.
posted by matteo at 5:22 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
The GOP insults a large group of Americans in its platform: thinking people.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:33 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:33 PM on September 15, 2008
non denominational tongue-talking mega-churches
Tongue-talkers aren't non-denominational, they're pentecostal.
posted by goo at 5:39 PM on September 15, 2008
Tongue-talkers aren't non-denominational, they're pentecostal.
posted by goo at 5:39 PM on September 15, 2008
So much for honesty, transparency and the 'rule of law:' McCain spokesman: Gov. Palin won't speak with 'Troopergate' investigator.
posted by ericb at 5:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 5:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
If the Democrats think insulting this group of individuals is a good thing, they are making a major miscalculation. Because there are Democrats who go to these churches, and independents as well, who might not appreciate the characterization.
I agree. You know who said something similar?
"We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."
See also: "I came to see my faith as being both a personal commitment to Christ and a commitment to my community...There are millions of Americans who share a similar view of their faith, who feel they have an obligation to help others."
posted by neroli at 5:41 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
I agree. You know who said something similar?
"We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."
See also: "I came to see my faith as being both a personal commitment to Christ and a commitment to my community...There are millions of Americans who share a similar view of their faith, who feel they have an obligation to help others."
posted by neroli at 5:41 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
First, I doubt she'll be ignorant.
On what basis do you doubt it, konolia? She has been ignorant, and she is ignorant now; even if she's tutored, she lacks the independent lifelong interest in and study of foreign policy that makes a person not ignorant on this subject. She could parrot policy stances, but she would not be informed.
I'd love you to answer, seriously, but am not that optimistic since I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked above, about why you think Obama might not be able to improve the economy.
I wish you would answer the questions you get asked, because when you don't, you are vulnerable to the impression that you have no answers, that you just keep moving from point to point and never have to account for your statements, cite evidence, or report sources. It's definitely a time-honored strategy for the right, but it makes you seem evasive and/or ignorant. How about standing and squarely arguing for your points of view?
posted by Miko at 5:44 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
On what basis do you doubt it, konolia? She has been ignorant, and she is ignorant now; even if she's tutored, she lacks the independent lifelong interest in and study of foreign policy that makes a person not ignorant on this subject. She could parrot policy stances, but she would not be informed.
I'd love you to answer, seriously, but am not that optimistic since I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked above, about why you think Obama might not be able to improve the economy.
I wish you would answer the questions you get asked, because when you don't, you are vulnerable to the impression that you have no answers, that you just keep moving from point to point and never have to account for your statements, cite evidence, or report sources. It's definitely a time-honored strategy for the right, but it makes you seem evasive and/or ignorant. How about standing and squarely arguing for your points of view?
posted by Miko at 5:44 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
...these sorts of churches have become the mainstream.
No, they haven't.
In the event that konolia didn't click on Marisa Stole the Precious Thing's link, let me highlight the facts/statistics:
posted by ericb at 5:44 PM on September 15, 2008
No, they haven't.
In the event that konolia didn't click on Marisa Stole the Precious Thing's link, let me highlight the facts/statistics:
1. Roman Catholic Church: 67.2 million.What say you, konolia, in response?
2. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.4 million.
3. United Methodist Church: 8.2 million.
4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 5.5 million.
5. Church of God in Christ: 5.4 million.
6. National Baptist Convention USA: 5 million.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: 4.9 million.
8. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million.
9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 3.2 million.
10. Assemblies of God: 2.7 million.
posted by ericb at 5:44 PM on September 15, 2008
Anybody who is following "Troopergate" should read this piece by Alaska congressman Les Gara. It really gets at what's important here--not so much Palin's ethical lapse, but the insane counter-reaction to the investigation by the the McCain camp.
Until August 29 "Troopergate" was a small state investigation Governor Palin, and every Republican and Democrat in a Republican-led Legislature, had agreed was appropriate. But things changed the day Governor Palin joined the McCain ticket. His handlers went ballistic that the Governor agreed to an investigation they now needed to stop.
[...]
I don't begrudge the Governor for not liking her brother-in-law. I don't really like him either, from what I've read. I do begrudge those who'd attack Commissioner Monegan, a quintessential public servant who's worked for both Republican and Democratic heads on the state and local level.
I stood on the sidelines when this investigation started. When Governor Palin fired Commissioner Monegan, my advice was to end the flap and just hire him back. He does good work. He's well respected. Unfortunately, my advice sometimes isn't that good, and the Governor didn't agree.
Then McCain's staff of outsiders came to town. And they began to launch personal attacks on people I respect. They started proving that the same old politics that have caused dissatisfaction with Washington insiders these past eight years are going to be the bread and butter of the McCain campaign.
posted by neroli at 6:12 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
Until August 29 "Troopergate" was a small state investigation Governor Palin, and every Republican and Democrat in a Republican-led Legislature, had agreed was appropriate. But things changed the day Governor Palin joined the McCain ticket. His handlers went ballistic that the Governor agreed to an investigation they now needed to stop.
[...]
I don't begrudge the Governor for not liking her brother-in-law. I don't really like him either, from what I've read. I do begrudge those who'd attack Commissioner Monegan, a quintessential public servant who's worked for both Republican and Democratic heads on the state and local level.
I stood on the sidelines when this investigation started. When Governor Palin fired Commissioner Monegan, my advice was to end the flap and just hire him back. He does good work. He's well respected. Unfortunately, my advice sometimes isn't that good, and the Governor didn't agree.
Then McCain's staff of outsiders came to town. And they began to launch personal attacks on people I respect. They started proving that the same old politics that have caused dissatisfaction with Washington insiders these past eight years are going to be the bread and butter of the McCain campaign.
posted by neroli at 6:12 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
What say you, konolia, in response?
What do you think?
She will never "respond." At least not to, or with, facts. Okay. She will only regurgitate the same ol' goofy emotional nonsense. I think we have established that by now.
Jeebus you guys.
I tell you what. Why don't we just put together a Magic Eight Ball script of Konolia responses for you and have it automatically trigger when ever the post tags have Palin, McCain, Obama, or Religion in them. It will save us all a great deal of time.
Can we just ignore her on these topics? PLEASE.
posted by tkchrist at 6:17 PM on September 15, 2008
What do you think?
She will never "respond." At least not to, or with, facts. Okay. She will only regurgitate the same ol' goofy emotional nonsense. I think we have established that by now.
Jeebus you guys.
I tell you what. Why don't we just put together a Magic Eight Ball script of Konolia responses for you and have it automatically trigger when ever the post tags have Palin, McCain, Obama, or Religion in them. It will save us all a great deal of time.
Can we just ignore her on these topics? PLEASE.
posted by tkchrist at 6:17 PM on September 15, 2008
Go back and google where the church growth is.
What do you mean?"
The line is "In what respect, Charlie?" Had she said something as honest as "what do you mean" when asked about something the meaning of which she could not produce, that would have been a much less mind-wrenchingly dismaying moment.
posted by cortex at 8:02 PM on September 15 [+] [!]
She had it right the first time. There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine. And again, Obama was asked the same question last year, and did not give the same answer Charlie did. So is Obama stupid or is Charlie just playing gotcha with a moveable question?
Tongue-talkers aren't non-denominational, they're pentecostal.
Goo, there are two types of "tongue-talkers." Pentecostal (to include but not limited to Assembly of God) and Charismatics, to include both denominational and nondenominational types. I personally am nondenominational and have been a member of two different nondenominational churches. Both were charismatic in doctrine-as are many if not most nondenominational fellowships. And yes, I do speak in tongues. So does my pastor. So do a lot of folks at my church. But not in front of YOU.
I'd love you to answer, seriously, but am not that optimistic since I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked above, about why you think Obama might not be able to improve the economy.
Because he will wreck it with his particular health care plan, and other spending plans. He will tax the heck out of businesses, or try to, which will not be conducive to growing jobs or to growth in the economy. He promises tax cuts, and I believe he thinks he can offer them, but in the meantime, the businesses that provide the paychecks the taxpayers are taxed ON won't be doing so well. His vision of expanded government is not my vision. My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector, by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively, not by a bloated government bureocracy. My parents used to work for the government, and I understand quite well just how much of our taxes are wasted by a system that operates on other people's money.
And for those calling Palin ignorant?
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
posted by konolia at 6:24 PM on September 15, 2008
What do you mean?"
The line is "In what respect, Charlie?" Had she said something as honest as "what do you mean" when asked about something the meaning of which she could not produce, that would have been a much less mind-wrenchingly dismaying moment.
posted by cortex at 8:02 PM on September 15 [+] [!]
She had it right the first time. There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine. And again, Obama was asked the same question last year, and did not give the same answer Charlie did. So is Obama stupid or is Charlie just playing gotcha with a moveable question?
Tongue-talkers aren't non-denominational, they're pentecostal.
Goo, there are two types of "tongue-talkers." Pentecostal (to include but not limited to Assembly of God) and Charismatics, to include both denominational and nondenominational types. I personally am nondenominational and have been a member of two different nondenominational churches. Both were charismatic in doctrine-as are many if not most nondenominational fellowships. And yes, I do speak in tongues. So does my pastor. So do a lot of folks at my church. But not in front of YOU.
I'd love you to answer, seriously, but am not that optimistic since I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked above, about why you think Obama might not be able to improve the economy.
Because he will wreck it with his particular health care plan, and other spending plans. He will tax the heck out of businesses, or try to, which will not be conducive to growing jobs or to growth in the economy. He promises tax cuts, and I believe he thinks he can offer them, but in the meantime, the businesses that provide the paychecks the taxpayers are taxed ON won't be doing so well. His vision of expanded government is not my vision. My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector, by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively, not by a bloated government bureocracy. My parents used to work for the government, and I understand quite well just how much of our taxes are wasted by a system that operates on other people's money.
And for those calling Palin ignorant?
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
posted by konolia at 6:24 PM on September 15, 2008
Hockey Moms for Truth. Palin gets Hockey Mommed.
posted by schyler523 at 6:26 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by schyler523 at 6:26 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
And for those calling Palin ignorant?
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
There's a good reason for that. If Hillary Clinton attacks Palin directly, Chris Matthews will practically drool all over himself to create a media sideshow about an alleged Clinton/Palin "catfight." The carnivalesque nature of media coverage of the presidential election would even get further and further away from any discussion of reality.
posted by jonp72 at 6:33 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
There's a good reason for that. If Hillary Clinton attacks Palin directly, Chris Matthews will practically drool all over himself to create a media sideshow about an alleged Clinton/Palin "catfight." The carnivalesque nature of media coverage of the presidential election would even get further and further away from any discussion of reality.
posted by jonp72 at 6:33 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
And for those calling Palin ignorant?
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
Hillary is not the only woman in politics. Debbie Wasserman Schultz from Florida certainly had plenty to say on Face the Nation yesterday:
She really knew very little about domestic policy. Quite honestly, the interview that I saw and that Americans saw on Thursday and Friday were similar to when I didn't read a book in high school and had to read the Cliffs Notes and phone in my -- and phone in my report. She's Cliff-noted her performance so far, and all of that is fair game. The American people deserve better than that. They don't deserve more of the same, which is what they're getting from John McCain and Sarah Palin right now.
posted by neroli at 6:35 PM on September 15, 2008
I haven't heard Hillary do it yet.
Hillary is not the only woman in politics. Debbie Wasserman Schultz from Florida certainly had plenty to say on Face the Nation yesterday:
She really knew very little about domestic policy. Quite honestly, the interview that I saw and that Americans saw on Thursday and Friday were similar to when I didn't read a book in high school and had to read the Cliffs Notes and phone in my -- and phone in my report. She's Cliff-noted her performance so far, and all of that is fair game. The American people deserve better than that. They don't deserve more of the same, which is what they're getting from John McCain and Sarah Palin right now.
posted by neroli at 6:35 PM on September 15, 2008
What does Hillary Clinton have to do with any of this? I’m offended at the notion that some comparison can be drawn between her and Palin.
posted by ijoshua at 6:35 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by ijoshua at 6:35 PM on September 15, 2008
*WARNING: tkchrist, skip to the next comment*
Go back and google where the church growth is.
Ha! This is fun.
We don't need to Google, because on the same page I posted is this table, where you can see that church adherence per denomination has been more or less stable with two exceptions - Southern Baptists and smaller Protestant groups, who've lost members. So, mainstream? No, and not approaching it, either.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:36 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Go back and google where the church growth is.
Ha! This is fun.
We don't need to Google, because on the same page I posted is this table, where you can see that church adherence per denomination has been more or less stable with two exceptions - Southern Baptists and smaller Protestant groups, who've lost members. So, mainstream? No, and not approaching it, either.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:36 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
(By the way, Schultz and Claire McCaskill are totally kicking ass out there on the stump and the interview shows. Worth watching.)
posted by neroli at 6:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by neroli at 6:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector, by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively
So how do you deal with the fact that private sector has utterly failed to do this? That this vision doesn't work - or it would have done so already, having had now 30+ years of a free market in which to do it?
By the way, Obama is not looking to expand government, but actually to cut programs using a line-item review. Bush (with help from senators like McCain) has led the federal government through an unpredecedented expansion - actually, a ballooining - which is drawing more heavily on the tax base than we can sustain. McCain's continued work in this direction sounds like it would be exactly antithetical to what you wish to see.
It's hard to see how increased taxation on the top earners and on major corporations is going to hurt job creation. they've been getting a free ride for eight years at least, and where are all the jobs they've created? Mostly overseas!We're hitting the bottom - we were promised jobs "created" by the openings of box stores and service outlets. Well, those jobs were not created, they were substitutes for displaced, better manufacturing and skilled jobs that were allowed to leave this country for other shores. They existed only as long as enough cash was circulating for Americans to continue shopping - now that the house of cards of our economy is falling in -- we're in a trade deficit! We don't make anything! We don't export anything! -- there are no further resources to draw upon. No one can go shopping to support the newly "created" jobs in the new service and retail economy, because there are fewer and fewer customers with the wherewithal to shop, every single day, People are losing their homes. And you think the solution is to extend business even more permission to divest and pull profits away from the economy? Asking corporations to return their fair share to a polity in which they benefit from a literate American workforce and publicly funded infrastructure is only appropriate. We need some new ideas. The same old, same old ancient Reagan idea has shown, over 30 years, that it totally fails to build a strong and sustainable American iconomy. It just doesn't work. I know it's an idea people really loved, but it just doesn't work for Americans. That economic model doesn't take care of our nation. There is no way the private sector can meet the needs of people who are unable to buy what it offers for sale, konolia.
There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine.
Can you provide a link describing these four versions? Never heard this one before, and I'd be interested to see someone list them.
And again, Obama was asked the same question last year, and did not give the same answer Charlie did. So is Obama stupid or is Charlie just playing gotcha with a moveable question?
Anda again, can you show us the source in which Obama was asked the same question, so that we can see and evaluate for ourselves what his answer was and whether or not it was more informed than Palin's? You were asked that yesterday and failed to provide a cite.
posted by Miko at 6:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
So how do you deal with the fact that private sector has utterly failed to do this? That this vision doesn't work - or it would have done so already, having had now 30+ years of a free market in which to do it?
By the way, Obama is not looking to expand government, but actually to cut programs using a line-item review. Bush (with help from senators like McCain) has led the federal government through an unpredecedented expansion - actually, a ballooining - which is drawing more heavily on the tax base than we can sustain. McCain's continued work in this direction sounds like it would be exactly antithetical to what you wish to see.
It's hard to see how increased taxation on the top earners and on major corporations is going to hurt job creation. they've been getting a free ride for eight years at least, and where are all the jobs they've created? Mostly overseas!We're hitting the bottom - we were promised jobs "created" by the openings of box stores and service outlets. Well, those jobs were not created, they were substitutes for displaced, better manufacturing and skilled jobs that were allowed to leave this country for other shores. They existed only as long as enough cash was circulating for Americans to continue shopping - now that the house of cards of our economy is falling in -- we're in a trade deficit! We don't make anything! We don't export anything! -- there are no further resources to draw upon. No one can go shopping to support the newly "created" jobs in the new service and retail economy, because there are fewer and fewer customers with the wherewithal to shop, every single day, People are losing their homes. And you think the solution is to extend business even more permission to divest and pull profits away from the economy? Asking corporations to return their fair share to a polity in which they benefit from a literate American workforce and publicly funded infrastructure is only appropriate. We need some new ideas. The same old, same old ancient Reagan idea has shown, over 30 years, that it totally fails to build a strong and sustainable American iconomy. It just doesn't work. I know it's an idea people really loved, but it just doesn't work for Americans. That economic model doesn't take care of our nation. There is no way the private sector can meet the needs of people who are unable to buy what it offers for sale, konolia.
There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine.
Can you provide a link describing these four versions? Never heard this one before, and I'd be interested to see someone list them.
And again, Obama was asked the same question last year, and did not give the same answer Charlie did. So is Obama stupid or is Charlie just playing gotcha with a moveable question?
Anda again, can you show us the source in which Obama was asked the same question, so that we can see and evaluate for ourselves what his answer was and whether or not it was more informed than Palin's? You were asked that yesterday and failed to provide a cite.
posted by Miko at 6:40 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
Palin purchased $35,000 tanning bed to install in the Alaska governor's mansion. Pioneer woman, huh?
posted by jonp72 at 6:41 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by jonp72 at 6:41 PM on September 15, 2008
“Can you provide a link describing these four versions?”
Charles Krauthammer’s WaPo editorial.
posted by ijoshua at 6:45 PM on September 15, 2008
Charles Krauthammer’s WaPo editorial.
posted by ijoshua at 6:45 PM on September 15, 2008
Obama: Clinton Would Continue "Bush Doctrine"
Share July 26, 2007 11:21 AM
ABC News' Rick Klein Reports: Sen. Barack Obama lobbed another verbal grenade at Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday, continuing a feud that first erupted at Monday night's Democratic presidential debate.
In a conference call with reporters, Obama said Clinton would continue the "Bush doctrine" of only speaking to leaders of rogue nations if they first meet conditions laid out by the United States. He went on to suggest that being "trapped by a lot of received wisdom" led members of Congress -- including Clinton -- to authorize the war in Iraq.
"The Bush administration's policy is to say that he will not talk with these countries unless they meet various preconditions -- that's their explicit policy, and that was the question that was posed at the debate," Obama said. "This is the assertion that she made during the debate and subsequently, was that she would not meet with various leaders unless certain preconditions were met. Now, if that's not what she means, then she should say so, but that was the question that was posed at the debate."
posted by konolia at 6:50 PM on September 15, 2008
Share July 26, 2007 11:21 AM
ABC News' Rick Klein Reports: Sen. Barack Obama lobbed another verbal grenade at Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday, continuing a feud that first erupted at Monday night's Democratic presidential debate.
In a conference call with reporters, Obama said Clinton would continue the "Bush doctrine" of only speaking to leaders of rogue nations if they first meet conditions laid out by the United States. He went on to suggest that being "trapped by a lot of received wisdom" led members of Congress -- including Clinton -- to authorize the war in Iraq.
"The Bush administration's policy is to say that he will not talk with these countries unless they meet various preconditions -- that's their explicit policy, and that was the question that was posed at the debate," Obama said. "This is the assertion that she made during the debate and subsequently, was that she would not meet with various leaders unless certain preconditions were met. Now, if that's not what she means, then she should say so, but that was the question that was posed at the debate."
posted by konolia at 6:50 PM on September 15, 2008
My Catholic Faith Pushes Me To Obama:
At last, I realized that to be a good Catholic had nothing to do with being a good Republican, and that in fact there is a proud tradition of a Catholic Left. And so someone smashed in my car window and ripped off my "What would Jesus bomb?" bumper sticker, my small protest
against the Iraq war. My peers called my house "the liberal nest of sin." At parties people sometimes asked me how I could even call myself a Catholic.
It is those voices that I hear again in the enthusiasm over "pro-life" Gov. Sarah Palin, whose views on criminalizing abortion seem to trump her well-documented personal record of corrupt and cronyistic bullying. So for those of you who insist on being "single issue"
voters this election, I suggest that you may do well to dig under the tired rhetoric of Republicans feverishly seeking your votes and consider the following.
Why, in 12 years of a Republican-controlled Congress (1994-2006), 6 of which with a supposedly pro-life Republican President (2001-2007), has no human life amendment to outlaw abortion come up for a vote? Could it be that the GOP may have some motivating interest in keeping abortion legal indefinitely as an issue to galvanize voters at election time, winning Republicans easy
votes?
And if you actually want to reduce abortions, you may do well to note the findings in the 2008 study by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, showing the role that economic factors have on the decision to abort, and also how addressing those factors actually reduces abortions.
If, after all this, you still want to vote for Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin - well, then, by all means do. Freedom of conscience is an important aspect of the Catholic teaching, too. But please stop acting like it's the only authentically "Catholic" way to vote; even the U.S. bishops disagree.
posted by schyler523 at 6:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [7 favorites]
At last, I realized that to be a good Catholic had nothing to do with being a good Republican, and that in fact there is a proud tradition of a Catholic Left. And so someone smashed in my car window and ripped off my "What would Jesus bomb?" bumper sticker, my small protest
against the Iraq war. My peers called my house "the liberal nest of sin." At parties people sometimes asked me how I could even call myself a Catholic.
It is those voices that I hear again in the enthusiasm over "pro-life" Gov. Sarah Palin, whose views on criminalizing abortion seem to trump her well-documented personal record of corrupt and cronyistic bullying. So for those of you who insist on being "single issue"
voters this election, I suggest that you may do well to dig under the tired rhetoric of Republicans feverishly seeking your votes and consider the following.
Why, in 12 years of a Republican-controlled Congress (1994-2006), 6 of which with a supposedly pro-life Republican President (2001-2007), has no human life amendment to outlaw abortion come up for a vote? Could it be that the GOP may have some motivating interest in keeping abortion legal indefinitely as an issue to galvanize voters at election time, winning Republicans easy
votes?
And if you actually want to reduce abortions, you may do well to note the findings in the 2008 study by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, showing the role that economic factors have on the decision to abort, and also how addressing those factors actually reduces abortions.
If, after all this, you still want to vote for Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin - well, then, by all means do. Freedom of conscience is an important aspect of the Catholic teaching, too. But please stop acting like it's the only authentically "Catholic" way to vote; even the U.S. bishops disagree.
posted by schyler523 at 6:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [7 favorites]
C'mon, the "four versions" thing is disingenuous. She didn't ask: "Well, which of the four versions that have been enunciated do you mean?" She said, "His world view?"
It was obvious that she didn't have a friggin' clue what was being discussed.
Please. You can do better.
posted by neroli at 6:53 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
It was obvious that she didn't have a friggin' clue what was being discussed.
Please. You can do better.
posted by neroli at 6:53 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yeah. Still bullshit. The third one is the only one that means anything to anyone; the fact that Krauthammer floated the phrase about the Kyoto protocol has little relation to what is called the Bush Doctrine today - the only one the Bush administration itself uses. In any case, it's fairly pathetic justification for what was clearly a caught-out, disingenuous confusion on the part of Palin.
After all, she didn't say "Which Bush Doctrine are you referring to, Charles - the one posed by Charles Krauthammer with regard to the Kyoto accords, the initial response to 9/11, the policy of preventive strikes against foregn combatants, or the overarching strategy of enforcing democracy worldwide?" that would be an informed response.
"In what respect, Charlie?" was a buying of time and fishing for hints on a question she thoroughly did not understand.
So I'm looking forward to the responses to my other questions, too. If you need another 24 hours to ask around and look some stuff up, go for it.
posted by Miko at 6:55 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
After all, she didn't say "Which Bush Doctrine are you referring to, Charles - the one posed by Charles Krauthammer with regard to the Kyoto accords, the initial response to 9/11, the policy of preventive strikes against foregn combatants, or the overarching strategy of enforcing democracy worldwide?" that would be an informed response.
"In what respect, Charlie?" was a buying of time and fishing for hints on a question she thoroughly did not understand.
So I'm looking forward to the responses to my other questions, too. If you need another 24 hours to ask around and look some stuff up, go for it.
posted by Miko at 6:55 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
500 comments? Does someone have a greatest hits summary or wiki to sum up the most telling nuggets? Attention-grabbing stuff that can't be interpreted away?
posted by NortonDC at 6:55 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by NortonDC at 6:55 PM on September 15, 2008
The republican response to Palin's lack of knowledge of the bush doctrine is laughable. Every politician was able to answer the "do you believe in the bush doctrine" before her and now it's suddenly confusing. The power doctrine isn't anything Colin Powell ever said, the Monroe Doctrine isn't any idea Monroe every articulated, and the Bush Doctrine has a pretty stable meaning.
But now that Palin illustrated she doesn't even recognize the term, it's suddenly a confusing every shifting mishmash of everything Bush ever thought.
The republicans behave as they always do, when things don't go their way, they just bend reality to their will. Of course, Hillary did the same thing, trying to claim that Obama was never a war opponent, that she was shot at in Bosnia, etc. It's obnoxious behavior from any candidate.
posted by delmoi at 6:58 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
But now that Palin illustrated she doesn't even recognize the term, it's suddenly a confusing every shifting mishmash of everything Bush ever thought.
The republicans behave as they always do, when things don't go their way, they just bend reality to their will. Of course, Hillary did the same thing, trying to claim that Obama was never a war opponent, that she was shot at in Bosnia, etc. It's obnoxious behavior from any candidate.
posted by delmoi at 6:58 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector, by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively, not by a bloated government bureocracy.
It has been repeatedly cited on this blog that state-based single payer health care is substantially more cost effective than the health care in the private sector.
New England Journal of Medicine:
Now, if you wanted to point out that the patchwork proposal put forth by the Democrats isn't as cost efficient as just having a proper National Health Care system, that would be a good point. Except that the Republicans have offered no solution to the health care crisis in the US, so patchwork is the best you are being offered.
But don't pass on lies about so-called "bloated government bureocracy". Sure, your parents saw waste. No system is perfect. But it's absolutely false to claim that the private sector is any more efficient when it is substantially less cost-effective.
posted by jb at 7:04 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
It has been repeatedly cited on this blog that state-based single payer health care is substantially more cost effective than the health care in the private sector.
New England Journal of Medicine:
In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.Note that's 1.3 percent for overhead for the "inefficient" government health care -- and between 11.7 and 13.2 percent for the private sector.
Now, if you wanted to point out that the patchwork proposal put forth by the Democrats isn't as cost efficient as just having a proper National Health Care system, that would be a good point. Except that the Republicans have offered no solution to the health care crisis in the US, so patchwork is the best you are being offered.
But don't pass on lies about so-called "bloated government bureocracy". Sure, your parents saw waste. No system is perfect. But it's absolutely false to claim that the private sector is any more efficient when it is substantially less cost-effective.
posted by jb at 7:04 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Catholic: 50,873,000ppl = 24.5% of US populationThe USA may be a Christian nation, but it's a distinctly Catholic nation, with only one other significantly-numbered variant of the Christian faith.
Baptist: 33,830,000ppl = 16.3% pop
Methodist: 14,150,000ppl = 6.8% pop
Lutheran : 9,580,000ppl = 4.6% pop
Presbyterian: 5,596,000ppl = 2.7% pop
Pentecostal/Charismatic/Foursquare: 4,407,000 = 2.1%
Population of USA: 207,980,000
Every non-Catholic, non-Baptist faith counts among multitudes of miniscule minorities. Pentacostals are a very noisy, very fringe group.
They're also probably a lot like the MetaFilter cultural subgroup. They have an echo chamber environment, too; and like us, they think they're way more important to the interests and direction of the IRL ("in real life") world. Just like the Frothing Pentmaticsquares, we occassionally make IRL media news. Just like us, we get into heavy discussion about the political scene. Not quite like us, they think God is damning the USA. Maybe that makes Bush God's tool.
Anyhoo, point being that if you Catholics, alone, get out the vote, your numbers of newly-registered voters would dwarf the entire population of theocratic wannabes.
Someone should tell the media.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Four versions of The Bush Doctrine, and Palin didn't know anything about any of them.
"Yes, Sarah Palin didn't know what it is."
--Charles Krauthammer
Then came 9/11, and that notion was immediately superseded by the advent of the war on terror. In his address to the joint session of Congress nine days after 9/11, President Bush declared: "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime." This "with us or against us" policy regarding terror -- first deployed against Pakistan when Secretary of State Colin Powell gave President Musharraf that seven-point ultimatum to end support for the Taliban and support our attack on Afghanistan -- became the essence of the Bush doctrine.
Obama clearly understands this aspect of The Bush Doctrine, as is clear from the link konolia posted above.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Yes, Sarah Palin didn't know what it is."
--Charles Krauthammer
Then came 9/11, and that notion was immediately superseded by the advent of the war on terror. In his address to the joint session of Congress nine days after 9/11, President Bush declared: "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime." This "with us or against us" policy regarding terror -- first deployed against Pakistan when Secretary of State Colin Powell gave President Musharraf that seven-point ultimatum to end support for the Taliban and support our attack on Afghanistan -- became the essence of the Bush doctrine.
Obama clearly understands this aspect of The Bush Doctrine, as is clear from the link konolia posted above.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
It has been repeatedly cited on this blog that state-based single payer health care is substantially more cost effective than the health care in the private sector.
Bah. Those are just facts, and facts have a well-known liberal bias.
posted by homunculus at 7:29 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
Bah. Those are just facts, and facts have a well-known liberal bias.
posted by homunculus at 7:29 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
Thanks for the cite on the "confusing" doctrine. I'm just as happy to agree that it has meant general "Bush policy" at some times and specific policy at others - but never "His worldview?"
I can understand the tactics it takes to defend a struggling pol that you want to stand up for. What I fail to understand is Why? to what end? Is it really worth it, in the minds of right-wingers, to go to the mat for a weak and inexperienced politician and an aged, hypocritical, and worn-out politician, just to get them in a position where they will continue to bankrupt the public trust and run the country into the ground? How will McCain's and Palin's defenders sleep comfortably, retire comfortably, celebrate Thanksgiving comfortably, when they know they've supported policies that are going to bankrupt their own children and grandchildren? When they know that they're daily mounting up a federal debt that makes less cash available for building our own economy? When every day under these economic policies means fewer student loans, higher fuel and grocery prices, less likelihood that your children or grandchildren will own homes, or that they'll be able to afford a dental visit for their kids, or enter the military with the expectation of benefits and pension?
It's awfully hard to argue that privatization is working, and that corporate welfare and policies that benefit the top 1% of the wealthiest in the country at the rest of our expense, are working for America. If it were true, the evidence would be on that side. We don't have the evidence. We have an economy that is circling the drain, families struggling to balance the needs for food, heating oil, gas, and education, and an enormously fat and swelled budget deficit that gets worse every year. Looking at that, you have to know if it doesn't stop your kids can kiss social security and college loans goodbye. Government pensions will have to go. Health care through employers will have to go - we'll all have to buy on the private market, and even more than the current 1 out of 7 of us will go uninsured. I'm just not sure how you can claim you have the best interests of America at heart, the best interests of your children's and granchildren's futures at heart, the most patriotic values of our founding fathers at heart....and still vote Republican. They just don't go together. If there was ever a time to let the old stories go, it's now.
posted by Miko at 7:31 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
I can understand the tactics it takes to defend a struggling pol that you want to stand up for. What I fail to understand is Why? to what end? Is it really worth it, in the minds of right-wingers, to go to the mat for a weak and inexperienced politician and an aged, hypocritical, and worn-out politician, just to get them in a position where they will continue to bankrupt the public trust and run the country into the ground? How will McCain's and Palin's defenders sleep comfortably, retire comfortably, celebrate Thanksgiving comfortably, when they know they've supported policies that are going to bankrupt their own children and grandchildren? When they know that they're daily mounting up a federal debt that makes less cash available for building our own economy? When every day under these economic policies means fewer student loans, higher fuel and grocery prices, less likelihood that your children or grandchildren will own homes, or that they'll be able to afford a dental visit for their kids, or enter the military with the expectation of benefits and pension?
It's awfully hard to argue that privatization is working, and that corporate welfare and policies that benefit the top 1% of the wealthiest in the country at the rest of our expense, are working for America. If it were true, the evidence would be on that side. We don't have the evidence. We have an economy that is circling the drain, families struggling to balance the needs for food, heating oil, gas, and education, and an enormously fat and swelled budget deficit that gets worse every year. Looking at that, you have to know if it doesn't stop your kids can kiss social security and college loans goodbye. Government pensions will have to go. Health care through employers will have to go - we'll all have to buy on the private market, and even more than the current 1 out of 7 of us will go uninsured. I'm just not sure how you can claim you have the best interests of America at heart, the best interests of your children's and granchildren's futures at heart, the most patriotic values of our founding fathers at heart....and still vote Republican. They just don't go together. If there was ever a time to let the old stories go, it's now.
posted by Miko at 7:31 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]
...forgot to mention, while the percentages reflect the proportion of people who self-identify as belonging to religion X, only half are so faithful as to attend church.
America is no where as religious as it thinks it is. Only about one in three people is going to church regularly. The two-thirds should wake up to that.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:33 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
America is no where as religious as it thinks it is. Only about one in three people is going to church regularly. The two-thirds should wake up to that.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:33 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
How will McCain's and Palin's defenders sleep comfortably, retire comfortably, celebrate Thanksgiving comfortably, when they know they've supported policies that are going to bankrupt their own children and grandchildren?
Well, hopefully you'll have taken a photo of their house and yard, proudly displaying the election sign for the disaster they helped put into power.
And you'll make sure that photo gets into their mailbox every month.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:35 PM on September 15, 2008
Well, hopefully you'll have taken a photo of their house and yard, proudly displaying the election sign for the disaster they helped put into power.
And you'll make sure that photo gets into their mailbox every month.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:35 PM on September 15, 2008
So is Obama stupid or is Charlie just playing gotcha with a moveable question?
Obama is not stupid. "Charlie" isn't playing gotcha. He's doing his job. He's a journalist who asked a question-- a question which, when Palin was unable to answer, revealed the deep ignorance of a person running for national office.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:35 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama is not stupid. "Charlie" isn't playing gotcha. He's doing his job. He's a journalist who asked a question-- a question which, when Palin was unable to answer, revealed the deep ignorance of a person running for national office.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:35 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
MikeMc writes "Now, maybe things have changed since the last time I drove into Canada but those guys wanted to see my cash, credit cards (WTF???) and all sorts of shit."
US customs always asks me to _prove_ I'm not moving to the states to work. How do you prove something like that?
posted by Mitheral at 7:36 PM on September 15, 2008
US customs always asks me to _prove_ I'm not moving to the states to work. How do you prove something like that?
posted by Mitheral at 7:36 PM on September 15, 2008
I just keep hoping, as you all do, your fellow countrymen will surprise us all in November. I am watching the race quite fervently, as you all are doing; and can't help but think of the national election that was held here last year. Obviously there are many mitigating factors that clearly distinguish the race here then and your race there now, but I can't help seeing a few general similar aspects between what happened here and what is happening there:
In the red corner, arch conservative John Howard. In power, old old dude, and in favour of the status quo which he himself had worked hard to implement. Anti-immigration, anti-Kyoto, pro-Iraq, pro-Bush, deregulated and privatised everything in sight. Most assuredly our version of a Republican politician.
In the blue corner, young progressive star of the labor party Kevin Rudd. Chats to Hu Jin Tao in fluent Mandarin. Promises change. Promises to ratify Kyoto and getting working on climate change issues. Promises education reforms. Promises to reverse the recent industrial relations reforms of the Howard government (this was probably the deciding issue on the election, but I digress.)
It was a hard fought election. The claws were out every step of the way. It got ugly. No one was sure which way the people would sway.
The result? Rudd won in a fucking landslide. Howard lost so badly he lost his own seat in Parliament and promptly retired.
I offer up this post as a glimmer of hope. Wishful thinking yes, but my fellow citizens suprised me, and yours may suprise you. Keep the faith, Obama will make it.
posted by nudar at 7:43 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
In the red corner, arch conservative John Howard. In power, old old dude, and in favour of the status quo which he himself had worked hard to implement. Anti-immigration, anti-Kyoto, pro-Iraq, pro-Bush, deregulated and privatised everything in sight. Most assuredly our version of a Republican politician.
In the blue corner, young progressive star of the labor party Kevin Rudd. Chats to Hu Jin Tao in fluent Mandarin. Promises change. Promises to ratify Kyoto and getting working on climate change issues. Promises education reforms. Promises to reverse the recent industrial relations reforms of the Howard government (this was probably the deciding issue on the election, but I digress.)
It was a hard fought election. The claws were out every step of the way. It got ugly. No one was sure which way the people would sway.
The result? Rudd won in a fucking landslide. Howard lost so badly he lost his own seat in Parliament and promptly retired.
I offer up this post as a glimmer of hope. Wishful thinking yes, but my fellow citizens suprised me, and yours may suprise you. Keep the faith, Obama will make it.
posted by nudar at 7:43 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
McCain’s Pathological Lying Creating a Cottage Industry
posted by homunculus at 7:49 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by homunculus at 7:49 PM on September 15, 2008
Christian Science Monitor Editorial Board: Palin’s “whatever it takes” attitude is “the same amoral existentialism that terrorists use.”
posted by ijoshua at 8:15 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ijoshua at 8:15 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
500 comments? Does someone have a greatest hits summary or wiki to sum up the most telling nuggets? Attention-grabbing stuff that can't be interpreted away?
posted by NortonDC
See here.
posted by Sailormom at 8:24 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by NortonDC
See here.
posted by Sailormom at 8:24 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
tkchrist, could you get off the cross, please? I know konolia responds a certain way. She's not my audience. If I had great beefs with her, I'd take it to MeMail. Tons of people are lurking and watching to see how we respond to her and people like her. If we're going to say we're the grownups, we're going to need to act like it.
konolia, I really wish you'd research more than townhall.com. You've gotten all kinds of links and leads here. You're not the only kind of conservative out there.
posted by lysdexic at 8:25 PM on September 15, 2008
konolia, I really wish you'd research more than townhall.com. You've gotten all kinds of links and leads here. You're not the only kind of conservative out there.
posted by lysdexic at 8:25 PM on September 15, 2008
Only about one in three people is going to church regularly.
While the remaining two-thirds are fags, liberals, hippies and "ne'er do wells" who are going out for elitist brunches in "cosmopolitan" cafés (yes, my inclusion of the acute accent [accent aigu] is intentional. "Look at me, I'm using a French word!").
posted by ericb at 8:26 PM on September 15, 2008
While the remaining two-thirds are fags, liberals, hippies and "ne'er do wells" who are going out for elitist brunches in "cosmopolitan" cafés (yes, my inclusion of the acute accent [accent aigu] is intentional. "Look at me, I'm using a French word!").
posted by ericb at 8:26 PM on September 15, 2008
I am surprised at the effort people make to maintain disingenuous arguments, which must somehow be self-deceptive or disingenuous beliefs. Palin has really triggered a festival of disingenuousness. I was struck by this watching Bill Maher last week, when John Fund was on the panel (along with Salman Rushdie and Janine Garofalo). At one point, Maher really nailed it when he said, after laying in to Palin's obvious level of ignorance, uncuriousness, and lack of experience, that he might be a snob for disdaining this champion of the little people, but Fund and his GOP elite buddies were worse because they could sit there spinning her "qualifications" (with bullshit like Krauthammer's "four Bush doctrines") while in real life they would never meet with such a person or take her seriously were she not a vice presidential candidate, and then he brought it home by pointing out that being disingenuous means you think the people you're trying to convince are *stupid.* And that is far more condescending and "elitist" than calling ignorance or dishonesty what it is, no matter what sort of person it comes from, but especially when it comes from a person who will be, as they say, one 72-year old heartbeat away from the fucking nuclear launch codes.
If you honestly believe Sarah Palin parsed Gibson's question and was trying to refine which of several "Bush doctrines" he might have meant, after seeing that clip, then either you are very easily fooled or you are disingenuous, or both. There have to be reasonable standards of evidence, and there's no way to interpret her comment in context, and especially given all the other evidence that she is paper thin with respect to experience or knowledge of the world beyond Wasilla and Juneau, as evincing anything other than a failure to remember one of her flash cards.
Lay down with liars and you wake up with people like Bush and a situation like the one we're in now in this country.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:30 PM on September 15, 2008 [8 favorites]
If you honestly believe Sarah Palin parsed Gibson's question and was trying to refine which of several "Bush doctrines" he might have meant, after seeing that clip, then either you are very easily fooled or you are disingenuous, or both. There have to be reasonable standards of evidence, and there's no way to interpret her comment in context, and especially given all the other evidence that she is paper thin with respect to experience or knowledge of the world beyond Wasilla and Juneau, as evincing anything other than a failure to remember one of her flash cards.
Lay down with liars and you wake up with people like Bush and a situation like the one we're in now in this country.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:30 PM on September 15, 2008 [8 favorites]
She had it right the first time. There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine.
Yeah, I read that Washington Post oped too, konolia. She didn't have anything right, no matter how much post hoc handwaving someone feels like doing re: what the Bush Doctrine was meant to refer to—she had no idea how to answer Gibson's question, and instead of acknowledging that she bluffed, badly. It would be an embarrassing thing to see from a mayor, but from the potential VP of the US it's absolutely wretched. It's gutting.
You've been a mother; you've watched your own children lie, badly, as they grew up and grappled with truth and truth-telling. You're not blind. I have a hell of a time believe you actually watched that interview and could not see the desperate hope on her part to lie her way out of admitting ignorance there.
posted by cortex at 8:36 PM on September 15, 2008 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I read that Washington Post oped too, konolia. She didn't have anything right, no matter how much post hoc handwaving someone feels like doing re: what the Bush Doctrine was meant to refer to—she had no idea how to answer Gibson's question, and instead of acknowledging that she bluffed, badly. It would be an embarrassing thing to see from a mayor, but from the potential VP of the US it's absolutely wretched. It's gutting.
You've been a mother; you've watched your own children lie, badly, as they grew up and grappled with truth and truth-telling. You're not blind. I have a hell of a time believe you actually watched that interview and could not see the desperate hope on her part to lie her way out of admitting ignorance there.
posted by cortex at 8:36 PM on September 15, 2008 [8 favorites]
Sarah Palin Interview -- "Bush Doctrine." [video | 01:05].
posted by ericb at 8:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 8:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin, The Bush Doctrine, and Why It's Smart To Be Dumb
“It's one of the most cringe-worthy moments in recent American political history:posted by ericb at 8:50 PM on September 15, 2008 [10 favorites]
‘Do you believe in the Bush Doctrine?’
The awkward pause, then the smug, patronizing comeback.
‘In what respect, Charlie?’
Charlie Gibson, taken aback, perhaps realizing that this is The Moment for which he'll be known for the rest of his career.
‘The Bush -- w-w-well, what do you interpret it to be?’
And then the painful, filibustering non-answer that I can hardly bear to watch without feeling embarrassed for Sarah Palin, John McCain, and this great nation of ours.
I'm not saying that every American besides Governor Palin knows what the Bush Doctrine is. Hell, I wasn't sure I knew what it was until Charlie Gibson confirmed it for me. But then again, I'm not a Republican governor who's running for national office.
Now, if Joe Biden had said this on national TV, the election would be over. Obama would either be calling Hillary Clinton and begging her to take over the #2 slot or he'd be busy getting to work on his concession speech.
But these are the Republicans, they of vaunted attack machines and vast right-wing conspiracies. Masters of spin, purveyors of semi-libelous commercials, wizards of righteous indignation and instigators of class warfare. If Sarah Palin doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is, well, my goodness, neither do a lot of hardworking, God-fearing hockey moms out there in the heartland. They don't have time to read those fancy city newspapers with lots of big words explaining the Bush Doctrine. They're not eggheads like Barack Obama and Joe Biden, those elitist intellectuals who sit around studying doctrines while raising taxes on hardworking Americans like you and me.
You think Governor Palin is going to waste her time reading books about the Bush Doctrine? No, she's busy with the responsibilities that come with being governor of the great state of Alaska. She's got moose to field-dress, bridges to nowhere to say ‘No’ to, jets to sell on eBay. Maybe community organizers have the time to talk about the Bush Doctrine. But Sarah Palin's too busy trying to reform Washington. By way of Alaska.
Before long, Obama and Biden will have to defend themselves against accusations that they're smart. They'll start claiming that they not only didn't know what the Bush Doctrine is but that they were unaware that Bush was even president. ‘We thought we were running against his father,’ they'll say. ‘We were too busy going to church and shooting animals and saying 'No' to lobbyists to pay attention to any of that Washington election nonsense. Hell, we don't even know how to read.’
And the election will become about who's dumber and more ignorant.
And you know which party's going to win that one.”
I am surprised at the effort people make to maintain disingenuous arguments, which must somehow be self-deceptive or disingenuous beliefs.
Well put, and it's a pretty risky tack to take, too - because if you wish to defend Palin's ignorance or McCain's dishonesty, you have to act like you don't perceive it - which means the rest of the world, watching you, has to conclude that you are either also hopelessly dimwitted not to perceive something so abundantly clear, or that you are so cynical about other voters that you think they can't tell that you don't believe in what you're saying.
But in the case of two candidates this egregiously bad, it's really hard to do that much convincing, so the only conclusion that makes sense is that the most important thing in the minds of the defenders is just protecting the status quo.
This is where the old directive "Don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining" comes in.
posted by Miko at 8:51 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well put, and it's a pretty risky tack to take, too - because if you wish to defend Palin's ignorance or McCain's dishonesty, you have to act like you don't perceive it - which means the rest of the world, watching you, has to conclude that you are either also hopelessly dimwitted not to perceive something so abundantly clear, or that you are so cynical about other voters that you think they can't tell that you don't believe in what you're saying.
But in the case of two candidates this egregiously bad, it's really hard to do that much convincing, so the only conclusion that makes sense is that the most important thing in the minds of the defenders is just protecting the status quo.
This is where the old directive "Don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining" comes in.
posted by Miko at 8:51 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
Howdy Miko -- good to run into you here
Yeah, I left out the word Stewart used to counter Fund's sputtering about it being "elitist" to laugh or be appalled at Palin's ignorance. That word was "cynic."
And like Maher, I'd rather be an elitist than a cynic. And after 8 years of cynical leadership which came to power by trashing intelligence as '"elitism," I'm still going to bet the American people have this one figured out, and will get back to realizing it as soon as the lipstick wears off the pig.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:55 PM on September 15, 2008
Yeah, I left out the word Stewart used to counter Fund's sputtering about it being "elitist" to laugh or be appalled at Palin's ignorance. That word was "cynic."
And like Maher, I'd rather be an elitist than a cynic. And after 8 years of cynical leadership which came to power by trashing intelligence as '"elitism," I'm still going to bet the American people have this one figured out, and will get back to realizing it as soon as the lipstick wears off the pig.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:55 PM on September 15, 2008
My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector
the private sector doesn't exist to take care of people, it exists to make money - if only they could manage that
by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively
and here we come to the most pernicious myth of the last 30 years - that these people in the private sector know what they are doing and they can do it cost-effectively
really? is GM doing that? what about bear stearns? lehmann? merrill lynch? enron? aig? freddie mac and fannie may? what about the people i work for?
i have news for you - i've observed those people close up and they DON'T know what they're doing and they DON'T do it cost-effectively and the entire economy is being run by MBA know-nothing, experienced-little people who, instead of having to make something work, fudge the figures and shove the responsibility on to the next guy, who does the same
it's a myth - and it's a myth that is just about ready to bite us fully and savagely where we sit down - our whole country - our whole system - our whole private sector is being run by incompetents and fools and they are running out of cheats to cover up their confusion and lack of ability - and they are the same people who are the business base of the republican party
how odd that you place your faith in the works of man like that ...
not by a bloated government bureocracy.
the private sector is full of bloated bureaucracy too - it's just that no one writes newspaper exposes about it
posted by pyramid termite at 9:10 PM on September 15, 2008 [18 favorites]
the private sector doesn't exist to take care of people, it exists to make money - if only they could manage that
by people who know what they are doing and can do it cost-effectively
and here we come to the most pernicious myth of the last 30 years - that these people in the private sector know what they are doing and they can do it cost-effectively
really? is GM doing that? what about bear stearns? lehmann? merrill lynch? enron? aig? freddie mac and fannie may? what about the people i work for?
i have news for you - i've observed those people close up and they DON'T know what they're doing and they DON'T do it cost-effectively and the entire economy is being run by MBA know-nothing, experienced-little people who, instead of having to make something work, fudge the figures and shove the responsibility on to the next guy, who does the same
it's a myth - and it's a myth that is just about ready to bite us fully and savagely where we sit down - our whole country - our whole system - our whole private sector is being run by incompetents and fools and they are running out of cheats to cover up their confusion and lack of ability - and they are the same people who are the business base of the republican party
how odd that you place your faith in the works of man like that ...
not by a bloated government bureocracy.
the private sector is full of bloated bureaucracy too - it's just that no one writes newspaper exposes about it
posted by pyramid termite at 9:10 PM on September 15, 2008 [18 favorites]
and while i'm ranting let me say something else - that saying that we should render to caesar what is caesar's and render unto god what is god's
well what do you do when caesar wants it all?
i know what much of the evangelical church and republican party has done - they've given it all to caesar and pretended they were giving it to god
god's not fooled
posted by pyramid termite at 9:14 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
well what do you do when caesar wants it all?
i know what much of the evangelical church and republican party has done - they've given it all to caesar and pretended they were giving it to god
god's not fooled
posted by pyramid termite at 9:14 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
I really, really, really hope all of the Dems here (or anti-McCain/Palin types) will be helping drive the votes for Obama when it comes time. Because if not, all of your wailing and gnashing of teeth over the GOP ticket will be for naught, and in future others may wonder why you were wasting your time here instead of knocking on doors and getting people out to crush the GOP.
In the meantime, I'll be helping my incumbent MP remain in power, even if I think the PM and the Minister of Industry need to be punched in the neck a few times each.
posted by illiad at 9:15 PM on September 15, 2008
In the meantime, I'll be helping my incumbent MP remain in power, even if I think the PM and the Minister of Industry need to be punched in the neck a few times each.
posted by illiad at 9:15 PM on September 15, 2008
This is how you win elections, everybody.
posted by neroli at 9:16 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by neroli at 9:16 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]
A longtime McCain fan has had enough.
the John McCain of old is unrecognizable. He has become the sort of politician he once despised.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:17 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
the John McCain of old is unrecognizable. He has become the sort of politician he once despised.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:17 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'd rather be an elitist than a cynic.
And not only that (of the two, at least one is genuine and principled!), but I'm also done tacitly letting the "elitist" tag get thrown out there. It's absolutely ridiculous to call people elitist for having the common sense God gave geese. And again, it's a distraction technique. Who are the real elitists? An "elite" is a group of people with some outstanding characteristic - "elitism" means that you believe people with that characteristic should govern. Who's the elite in this scenario? The conservatives have just as many Ivy League degrees as the liberals in this world. The key difference is that they also have the vast bulk of the wealth - and that's the elite we need to be talking about. They run in circles and utter cries about lattes and Volvos and arugula, hoping to call enough names of others to distract us from the fact that they are the true elite, the private-jet and sports-team owners, the oil barons, the country-club and golf club members, the back-room deal-makers, the ones who could hop a quick flight to a third or fourth home in Outer Fabulosia if things took a nasty turn in the US, and let the rest of us eat cake. They want to talk about the elite? I'd love to. Bring it on, folks: let's talk about the elite. Let's talk about what an elite really is, and who's in it. And guess what? When it comes to the elite Bush, Cheney, McCain, and Co. have a lifetime membershipn in, a couple of liberal Chicago lawyers making a few hundred grand a year are no way wealthy or connected enough to be in it.
posted by Miko at 9:25 PM on September 15, 2008 [27 favorites]
And not only that (of the two, at least one is genuine and principled!), but I'm also done tacitly letting the "elitist" tag get thrown out there. It's absolutely ridiculous to call people elitist for having the common sense God gave geese. And again, it's a distraction technique. Who are the real elitists? An "elite" is a group of people with some outstanding characteristic - "elitism" means that you believe people with that characteristic should govern. Who's the elite in this scenario? The conservatives have just as many Ivy League degrees as the liberals in this world. The key difference is that they also have the vast bulk of the wealth - and that's the elite we need to be talking about. They run in circles and utter cries about lattes and Volvos and arugula, hoping to call enough names of others to distract us from the fact that they are the true elite, the private-jet and sports-team owners, the oil barons, the country-club and golf club members, the back-room deal-makers, the ones who could hop a quick flight to a third or fourth home in Outer Fabulosia if things took a nasty turn in the US, and let the rest of us eat cake. They want to talk about the elite? I'd love to. Bring it on, folks: let's talk about the elite. Let's talk about what an elite really is, and who's in it. And guess what? When it comes to the elite Bush, Cheney, McCain, and Co. have a lifetime membershipn in, a couple of liberal Chicago lawyers making a few hundred grand a year are no way wealthy or connected enough to be in it.
posted by Miko at 9:25 PM on September 15, 2008 [27 favorites]
OMG DID YOU JUST COMPARE SARAH PALIN TO A GOOSE? NEXT YOU'LL BE PUTTING LIPSTICK ON THE GOOSE OH THE HUMANITY OH NOES!
posted by Artw at 9:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
America is sick of polish.
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
THAT IS HOW UTTERLY DESPERATE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS.
There is a saying in the Bible; that to a hungry man even the bitter tastes sweet.
The America I know?
Is THAT DESPERATE.
McCain? A grumpy old man whose main attraction is that he isn't a Democrat. But that grumpy old man knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for. And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I guess we'll see how it turns out, in November.
posted by konolia at 9:53 PM on September 15, 2008
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
THAT IS HOW UTTERLY DESPERATE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS.
There is a saying in the Bible; that to a hungry man even the bitter tastes sweet.
The America I know?
Is THAT DESPERATE.
McCain? A grumpy old man whose main attraction is that he isn't a Democrat. But that grumpy old man knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for. And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I guess we'll see how it turns out, in November.
posted by konolia at 9:53 PM on September 15, 2008
There are at least four versions of the Bush Doctrine.
Ah, yes, the Charles "Pompous Ass" Krauthammer talking point. Very good, konolia, you've gotten the memo. And it would work, too, konolia, had not every informed person listening to the interview known exactly what Gibson was referring to. Everyone knew, including you, konolia, were you not too disingenuous to admit it. But, nice trykonolia; it's sweet the way you come to her defense, because, baby, she needs it. She's a boob, konolia, who just happens to parrot your favorite lines.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:03 PM on September 15, 2008
Ah, yes, the Charles "Pompous Ass" Krauthammer talking point. Very good, konolia, you've gotten the memo. And it would work, too, konolia, had not every informed person listening to the interview known exactly what Gibson was referring to. Everyone knew, including you, konolia, were you not too disingenuous to admit it. But, nice trykonolia; it's sweet the way you come to her defense, because, baby, she needs it. She's a boob, konolia, who just happens to parrot your favorite lines.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:03 PM on September 15, 2008
doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore
That just seems less and less true with every passing day.
posted by Artw at 10:05 PM on September 15, 2008
That just seems less and less true with every passing day.
posted by Artw at 10:05 PM on September 15, 2008
...that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore...
Keep believing that if you want to. I really feel like, as of today, Obama and Biden have figured out to tell a different story about John McCain--a truer story, in my opinion. They've found their words.
John McCain, like Bush before him, has managed to package his style in way that speaks to a lot of people: yeah, he's that great no-bullshit old guy at the bar, the uncle at Thanksgiving who tells dirty jokes and war stories. And it's effective because everybody knows that guy.
But he's not your salty uncle--he's your boss. He's the worst boss you ever had at the crappiest job you ever worked. He's the boss with the shiny new car who acted like a pal when he hired you, then made you work overtime, kept your tips, called you a fuck-up, then fired you the first time you called in sick.
Everybody knows that guy, too. And that's why I think Obama can win.
posted by neroli at 10:06 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
Keep believing that if you want to. I really feel like, as of today, Obama and Biden have figured out to tell a different story about John McCain--a truer story, in my opinion. They've found their words.
John McCain, like Bush before him, has managed to package his style in way that speaks to a lot of people: yeah, he's that great no-bullshit old guy at the bar, the uncle at Thanksgiving who tells dirty jokes and war stories. And it's effective because everybody knows that guy.
But he's not your salty uncle--he's your boss. He's the worst boss you ever had at the crappiest job you ever worked. He's the boss with the shiny new car who acted like a pal when he hired you, then made you work overtime, kept your tips, called you a fuck-up, then fired you the first time you called in sick.
Everybody knows that guy, too. And that's why I think Obama can win.
posted by neroli at 10:06 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
Look, I know Americans are fond of the desperate last stand using unexpected methods against overwhelming odds that somehow succeeds - it is a time-honored trope of war films and Friday night Disney family movies. Desperate last stands in the real world happen because one side is losing so badly they will do anything to stay alive. Mostly they go on to lose.
Everyone in "the America you know" wants the heartwarming story of a small-town kid/scout leader/hockey mom who suddenly has to go to the big city/become senator/run for the vice-presidency, and after all the snotty city kids/press corps/librul media beat down on them a bit for Being The N00b, they suddenly Remember Their Roots and school everyone with their folksy wit/idealistic filibustering/moose rifle.
Unfortunately, Hollywood isn't "the America you know" either.
posted by casarkos at 10:10 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Everyone in "the America you know" wants the heartwarming story of a small-town kid/scout leader/hockey mom who suddenly has to go to the big city/become senator/run for the vice-presidency, and after all the snotty city kids/press corps/librul media beat down on them a bit for Being The N00b, they suddenly Remember Their Roots and school everyone with their folksy wit/idealistic filibustering/moose rifle.
Unfortunately, Hollywood isn't "the America you know" either.
posted by casarkos at 10:10 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
I lol'd, because those two seem to do a decent job of describing Sarah Palin's record.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:11 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
An end to government waste.
I lol'd, because those two seem to do a decent job of describing Sarah Palin's record.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:11 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
had...the cojones, to go up to Alaska
I think McCain had Palin *flown* down to the lower 48, actually.
The scenario you describe rings a bell -- some movie, I think. It sounds like ad copy pitched for a made-for-tv/miniseries voice-over.
posted by skyper at 10:12 PM on September 15, 2008
I think McCain had Palin *flown* down to the lower 48, actually.
The scenario you describe rings a bell -- some movie, I think. It sounds like ad copy pitched for a made-for-tv/miniseries voice-over.
posted by skyper at 10:12 PM on September 15, 2008
I have no illusions about McCain.
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
posted by konolia at 10:18 PM on September 15, 2008
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
posted by konolia at 10:18 PM on September 15, 2008
America has been here before and elected a rough man of the people, Andrew Jackson, and he was one of our worst presidents ever. I'll take the Columbia and Harvard educated Obama over miss multiple colleges and senator dementia any day.
posted by caddis at 10:19 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by caddis at 10:19 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
I am surprised at the effort people make to maintain disingenuous arguments, which must somehow be self-deceptive or disingenuous beliefs. Palin has really triggered a festival of disingenuousness. I was struck by this watching Bill Maher last week, when John Fund was on the panel
I just finished watching that episode (Real.Time.With.Bill.Maher.S11E03) and it was great.
John Fund looked to me like a man who is going to develop an internal cancer. His body language was so unhealthy and the way he worked so very, very hard to pull off a complete 180° so as to not lose face... wow. That sort of behaviour is not healthy.
I hope American citizens do their duty and vote in droves. This is one election where it is really going to count.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:21 PM on September 15, 2008
I just finished watching that episode (Real.Time.With.Bill.Maher.S11E03) and it was great.
John Fund looked to me like a man who is going to develop an internal cancer. His body language was so unhealthy and the way he worked so very, very hard to pull off a complete 180° so as to not lose face... wow. That sort of behaviour is not healthy.
I hope American citizens do their duty and vote in droves. This is one election where it is really going to count.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:21 PM on September 15, 2008
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
Konolia, you and I couldn't agree more. We are nearing the end of eight years of possibly the most corrupt administration in our country's history. I sure hope the next guy doesn't bring in the same old people to continue the party! (Hint: if you're thinking McCain is the guy who will break it up, just look at who has been staffing his campaign...)
An end to government waste.
Ditto. Namely, bloating of the government in the form of questionable, intractable war(s) is the chiefest waste of them all. It's like, what, a billion dollars a day now? And how many lives? Not to mention the credibility of our leadership as a nation is pretty much in the toilet because we don't listen to our allies or the global community anymore.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
Agreeing more and more. I think one sure way you can tell how a person will lead when they are in office is how they campaign to get there. It's really revealing.
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
Funny thing, that. Putting Palin within 10 miles of the DC line is a sure way to make sure none of the above will ever pass.
THAT IS HOW UTTERLY DESPERATE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS.
I hear you, sister. Lots of Average Americans started chomping at the bit for this nonsense to be over years ago, which is why people like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton siezed the opportunity and got a good running start. What does it tell you when good, qualified people throw their hats in the ring a good year before they needed to? And what does it say when somebody seasoned, who ought to know better, who prides himself as a 'maverick' (or is it mavrick?) plucks some silly bint out of obscurity two months before election day to be his running mate and nearly half of our beleagured nation eats it up like free candy?
...Desperate times call for desperate measures.
The times are desperate, I can't disagree one iota. But our solution doesn't have to be a desperate one. In fact, it can be a perfectly sane one. The part that kind of stuns me the most is that the left/Democrats, who by rights are the only ones who ought to be insane now after eight years of continuous conservative bullshit (ten if you want to count the congress during the last 2 Clinton years), appear to have their act together. It's the GOP and their supporters who have pretty much lost their heads.
posted by brain cloud at 10:23 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
An end to corruption in politics.
Konolia, you and I couldn't agree more. We are nearing the end of eight years of possibly the most corrupt administration in our country's history. I sure hope the next guy doesn't bring in the same old people to continue the party! (Hint: if you're thinking McCain is the guy who will break it up, just look at who has been staffing his campaign...)
An end to government waste.
Ditto. Namely, bloating of the government in the form of questionable, intractable war(s) is the chiefest waste of them all. It's like, what, a billion dollars a day now? And how many lives? Not to mention the credibility of our leadership as a nation is pretty much in the toilet because we don't listen to our allies or the global community anymore.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
Agreeing more and more. I think one sure way you can tell how a person will lead when they are in office is how they campaign to get there. It's really revealing.
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
Funny thing, that. Putting Palin within 10 miles of the DC line is a sure way to make sure none of the above will ever pass.
THAT IS HOW UTTERLY DESPERATE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS.
I hear you, sister. Lots of Average Americans started chomping at the bit for this nonsense to be over years ago, which is why people like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton siezed the opportunity and got a good running start. What does it tell you when good, qualified people throw their hats in the ring a good year before they needed to? And what does it say when somebody seasoned, who ought to know better, who prides himself as a 'maverick' (or is it mavrick?) plucks some silly bint out of obscurity two months before election day to be his running mate and nearly half of our beleagured nation eats it up like free candy?
...Desperate times call for desperate measures.
The times are desperate, I can't disagree one iota. But our solution doesn't have to be a desperate one. In fact, it can be a perfectly sane one. The part that kind of stuns me the most is that the left/Democrats, who by rights are the only ones who ought to be insane now after eight years of continuous conservative bullshit (ten if you want to count the congress during the last 2 Clinton years), appear to have their act together. It's the GOP and their supporters who have pretty much lost their heads.
posted by brain cloud at 10:23 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
I too read something in the Bible once, something about foolish men and houses built on sand.
But that grumpy old man knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for. And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
First of all, he didn't pick Palin. That is so blindingly obvious now it's funny. She was picked for him. He spoke to her on the goddamned phone, once, a long time ago, prior to the veep announcement. I bet he didn't even know she was on the selection table.
Second of all, that "knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for" sounds an awful lot like you think the Republicans picked Palin as a manipulating agent to win them the election, and serve not much else in the way of a purpose. Unless you think beehives and mooseburgers are what's needed to get your country back on track.
posted by nudar at 10:27 PM on September 15, 2008
I too read something in the Bible once, something about foolish men and houses built on sand.
But that grumpy old man knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for. And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
First of all, he didn't pick Palin. That is so blindingly obvious now it's funny. She was picked for him. He spoke to her on the goddamned phone, once, a long time ago, prior to the veep announcement. I bet he didn't even know she was on the selection table.
Second of all, that "knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for" sounds an awful lot like you think the Republicans picked Palin as a manipulating agent to win them the election, and serve not much else in the way of a purpose. Unless you think beehives and mooseburgers are what's needed to get your country back on track.
posted by nudar at 10:27 PM on September 15, 2008
beehives and mooseburgers
It's the bitch clip that churns my butter.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:33 PM on September 15, 2008
It's the bitch clip that churns my butter.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:33 PM on September 15, 2008
A grumpy old man whose main attraction is that he isn't a Democrat. But that grumpy old man knew exactly what so many Americans were desperate for. And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore
Yeah, that's the "main attraction" alright. Exactly what we need - a president who just doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks. What a breath of fresh air that'll be, in sharp contrast to the past eight years.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
Yeah, that's the "main attraction" alright. Exactly what we need - a president who just doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks. What a breath of fresh air that'll be, in sharp contrast to the past eight years.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
An end to corruption in politics.
"Bills Placed On Calendar, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S. 453: A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
Amendments Passed, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
An end to government waste.
Amendments Passed, 109th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.3810 to H.R.4939 To provide that none of the funds appropriated by this Act may be made available for hurricane relief and recovery contracts exceeding $500,000 that are awarded using procedures other than competitive procedures.
S.AMDT.4624 to H.R.5441 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available for expenses in carrying out the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act may be used to enter into noncompetitive contracts based upon the unusual and compelling urgency exception under Federal contracting law unless the contract is limited in time, scope, and value as necessary to respond to the immediate emergency.
[Could be filed under both an end to corruption and waste:]
Amendments Passed, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting. (Note: requires that various agencies (State, DoD, intelligence, etc.) provide information on the companies hired to do contract work in Iraq and Afghanistan, the number of people employed to do such work, a way to track the number killed or wounded, and the cost of those contracts. Also requires the Secretary of Defense to submit a report detailing his strategy for ensuring that contractors do not perform "inherently governmental functions", and are not placed in supervisory positions over US personnel.) (The underlying bill was vetoed by the President; amendment included in the bill that ultimately became law.)"
This was linked earlier (thanks, whoever linked it). Go ahead, compare McCain's record during the 109th and 110th Congresses and see how much he contributed to ending corruption in politics or government waste. Compare their concern for making the lives of vets and their families easier, while you're at it.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:44 PM on September 15, 2008 [10 favorites]
"Bills Placed On Calendar, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S. 453: A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
Amendments Passed, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
An end to government waste.
Amendments Passed, 109th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.3810 to H.R.4939 To provide that none of the funds appropriated by this Act may be made available for hurricane relief and recovery contracts exceeding $500,000 that are awarded using procedures other than competitive procedures.
S.AMDT.4624 to H.R.5441 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available for expenses in carrying out the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act may be used to enter into noncompetitive contracts based upon the unusual and compelling urgency exception under Federal contracting law unless the contract is limited in time, scope, and value as necessary to respond to the immediate emergency.
[Could be filed under both an end to corruption and waste:]
Amendments Passed, 110th Congress:
Obama:
S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting. (Note: requires that various agencies (State, DoD, intelligence, etc.) provide information on the companies hired to do contract work in Iraq and Afghanistan, the number of people employed to do such work, a way to track the number killed or wounded, and the cost of those contracts. Also requires the Secretary of Defense to submit a report detailing his strategy for ensuring that contractors do not perform "inherently governmental functions", and are not placed in supervisory positions over US personnel.) (The underlying bill was vetoed by the President; amendment included in the bill that ultimately became law.)"
This was linked earlier (thanks, whoever linked it). Go ahead, compare McCain's record during the 109th and 110th Congresses and see how much he contributed to ending corruption in politics or government waste. Compare their concern for making the lives of vets and their families easier, while you're at it.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:44 PM on September 15, 2008 [10 favorites]
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
I personally know a woman who used to sleep with Johnny Mac. She says he can't get it up unless you beat him with a bamboo cane and yell at him in Vietnamese while he chants his name and serial number. But you go ahead and give that man the launch codes. Nuff said.
posted by humanfont at 10:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
I personally know a woman who used to sleep with Johnny Mac. She says he can't get it up unless you beat him with a bamboo cane and yell at him in Vietnamese while he chants his name and serial number. But you go ahead and give that man the launch codes. Nuff said.
posted by humanfont at 10:46 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Konolia, very sad. You do know McCain also had the balls to leave his disabled wife for Cindy, don't you? I mean, that's some cold shit right there. That's not all either. Palin? Long silence there. She's close to Russia, and she knows how to play chess(not).
posted by Flex1970 at 10:46 PM on September 15, 2008
posted by Flex1970 at 10:46 PM on September 15, 2008
It's absolutely ridiculous to call people elitist for having the common sense God gave geese.
Repeated for truth.
What America wants-at least the America I know: An end to corruption in politics. An end to government waste. An end to Washington business-as-usual. And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
If I don't laugh, I'm going to cry.
You're concerned about corruption in politics, so you are going to re-elect the men who have stolen trillions of dollars through no-bid contracts and war profiteering?
You're concerned about government waste, so you are going to re-elect the men who reported a $25 billion "unreconciled transaction" in government spending? Who have put your country trillions and trillions of dollars into debt? Who have never passed a balanced budget?
Seriously?
You're concerned about "business-as-usual", so you are going to re-elect the men who are bought and sold for the pound on the open lobbyist market? The men who held closed-door meetings with corporate executives to decide how your public lands and resources should be divvied-up for their benefit?
I mean, seriously? You've got to be kidding.
And then you pitch the idea of "PTA President" — a naughts version of the "CEO President" you supported the last time around. Yeah, let's have a poorly educated, untravelled backwoods citizen represent the country to the global economic, political, and social markets. I'll just bet US foreign relations are going to improve when someone with no sense of history goes blundering through the global leaders summits.
I don't think you can be serious.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [6 favorites]
Repeated for truth.
What America wants-at least the America I know: An end to corruption in politics. An end to government waste. An end to Washington business-as-usual. And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
If I don't laugh, I'm going to cry.
You're concerned about corruption in politics, so you are going to re-elect the men who have stolen trillions of dollars through no-bid contracts and war profiteering?
You're concerned about government waste, so you are going to re-elect the men who reported a $25 billion "unreconciled transaction" in government spending? Who have put your country trillions and trillions of dollars into debt? Who have never passed a balanced budget?
Seriously?
You're concerned about "business-as-usual", so you are going to re-elect the men who are bought and sold for the pound on the open lobbyist market? The men who held closed-door meetings with corporate executives to decide how your public lands and resources should be divvied-up for their benefit?
I mean, seriously? You've got to be kidding.
And then you pitch the idea of "PTA President" — a naughts version of the "CEO President" you supported the last time around. Yeah, let's have a poorly educated, untravelled backwoods citizen represent the country to the global economic, political, and social markets. I'll just bet US foreign relations are going to improve when someone with no sense of history goes blundering through the global leaders summits.
I don't think you can be serious.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:52 PM on September 15, 2008 [6 favorites]
That's all well and good, fff, but you're forgetting the most important thing: McCain isn't a Democrat.
Checkmate.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:55 PM on September 15, 2008
Checkmate.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:55 PM on September 15, 2008
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
What on earth is that even supposed to mean? That "nuff said" means that there's something dark about his parenting or his children that you dare not speak its name? That by having a friend of a friend connection to the children of McCain, that you are an accurate judge of McCain's wisdom, common sense, and humility? That you have special insight as to the truth of McCain, though a tertiary connection?
Please, what was that tidbit supposed to tell us. What did it mean? Please, decipher it.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:03 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
What on earth is that even supposed to mean? That "nuff said" means that there's something dark about his parenting or his children that you dare not speak its name? That by having a friend of a friend connection to the children of McCain, that you are an accurate judge of McCain's wisdom, common sense, and humility? That you have special insight as to the truth of McCain, though a tertiary connection?
Please, what was that tidbit supposed to tell us. What did it mean? Please, decipher it.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:03 PM on September 15, 2008 [5 favorites]
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
Oh for fuck's sake. Enough with the bullshit talking points, already.
posted by homunculus at 11:11 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh for fuck's sake. Enough with the bullshit talking points, already.
posted by homunculus at 11:11 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
What? No, it's not! WTF? Are you an Eliza program?
I'm wearing a wristwatch. 'Nuff said.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:13 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
What? No, it's not! WTF? Are you an Eliza program?
I'm wearing a wristwatch. 'Nuff said.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:13 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]
My vision is for people to be cared for by the private sector
Funny thing about the private sector, they usually have their private interests as a priority, rather than the public good. Hope you got good insurance by the way, your vision seems a little blurry, probably want to get that checked out.
Dammit, why the hell did I fall for it?
Assembly of God church, hunting, snow mobiles, small town, hockey mom, pregnant teen daughter, Oxycontin sniffing son who joined the military, too many damn kids, good-for-nothing husband, brother-in-law custody drama.
Oh, indubitably, Probably what pisses me off most about white trash is that they're, well, white. They should know better than the rest of the trash, right?
Fucking embarrassments to the rest of us spiritually enlightened, educated, clean-living urbanites with perfect white families.
Palin's personal hypocrisy is most certainly fair game, but your comment is ugly and pathetic and certainly isn't indicative of any ideas worth fighting for or representative of the people actually fighting for them.
The Republicans on the other hand, love that sort of shit. Their bread and butter. I hear they're looking for volunteers, they'd love to have you.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:31 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
Funny thing about the private sector, they usually have their private interests as a priority, rather than the public good. Hope you got good insurance by the way, your vision seems a little blurry, probably want to get that checked out.
Dammit, why the hell did I fall for it?
Assembly of God church, hunting, snow mobiles, small town, hockey mom, pregnant teen daughter, Oxycontin sniffing son who joined the military, too many damn kids, good-for-nothing husband, brother-in-law custody drama.
Oh, indubitably, Probably what pisses me off most about white trash is that they're, well, white. They should know better than the rest of the trash, right?
Fucking embarrassments to the rest of us spiritually enlightened, educated, clean-living urbanites with perfect white families.
Palin's personal hypocrisy is most certainly fair game, but your comment is ugly and pathetic and certainly isn't indicative of any ideas worth fighting for or representative of the people actually fighting for them.
The Republicans on the other hand, love that sort of shit. Their bread and butter. I hear they're looking for volunteers, they'd love to have you.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:31 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
America is sick of polish.
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
First of all, if you don't like elites, why are you posting on metafilter? I'm not saying you should leave or anything, I'm just pointing out that you obviously like talking with intelligent people.
Secondly, Washington has been run by anti-elitists for the past 8 years and they fucked everything up. Frankly, I'd love to see this country in the hands of slick elitists who know what they're doing. For fuck sakes, what's wrong with that?
I'm also curious why you think being stupid or uneducated is likely to make someone more effective at ending 'corruption' and government waste.
posted by delmoi at 11:56 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
First of all, if you don't like elites, why are you posting on metafilter? I'm not saying you should leave or anything, I'm just pointing out that you obviously like talking with intelligent people.
Secondly, Washington has been run by anti-elitists for the past 8 years and they fucked everything up. Frankly, I'd love to see this country in the hands of slick elitists who know what they're doing. For fuck sakes, what's wrong with that?
I'm also curious why you think being stupid or uneducated is likely to make someone more effective at ending 'corruption' and government waste.
posted by delmoi at 11:56 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]
And they are desperate enough to get the above that they are willing to take a chance on a lipstick-wearing, beehive sporting, mooseburger-eating, mother of five who only a few short years ago was just in the PTA.
For the people who are happily supporting Sarah Palin, they're doing the opposite of "taking a chance". She's comfort food. She's the next incarnation of Dubya who the evangelicals were gaga over in 2000, but since has fucked up so much no one wants to be associated with him anymore. Enter Palin. No one's taking a chance on Palin, they're just confirming their worldview that God has chosen one of US to take the country back to Jesus. There's zero risk in a right-winger's eye.
And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
Except he's doesn't have that independent streak any longer--he's folded to the Republican base on just about every single issue you can name. Think he picked Palin? That's a good one.
posted by zardoz at 12:30 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
For the people who are happily supporting Sarah Palin, they're doing the opposite of "taking a chance". She's comfort food. She's the next incarnation of Dubya who the evangelicals were gaga over in 2000, but since has fucked up so much no one wants to be associated with him anymore. Enter Palin. No one's taking a chance on Palin, they're just confirming their worldview that God has chosen one of US to take the country back to Jesus. There's zero risk in a right-winger's eye.
And that grumpy old man, who has been to hell and back, who really doesn't give a rat's hiney what anyone thinks anymore, had the utter gall, the chutzpah, the cojones, to go up to Alaska and do the one thing no one ever dreamed he'd do.
Except he's doesn't have that independent streak any longer--he's folded to the Republican base on just about every single issue you can name. Think he picked Palin? That's a good one.
posted by zardoz at 12:30 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
"I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said."
You know, the ones from his marriage where his wife was crippled in a car accident, and was better dealed for a beer baroness after McCain's extramarital affairs came to light.
Those three kids? "Nuff said" my ass.
posted by clearly at 1:55 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know, the ones from his marriage where his wife was crippled in a car accident, and was better dealed for a beer baroness after McCain's extramarital affairs came to light.
Those three kids? "Nuff said" my ass.
posted by clearly at 1:55 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
Up is down, freedom is slavery, have some Victory Gin, brothers!!
I suspect that this may be one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have ever read on this site. An end to Washington business-as-usual movement spearheaded by the guy whose party has been in power since 1992, and whose answer to every economic travail is "tax cuts" and ever diplomatic flareup is military intervention?
I don't think Bill Kristol could have written any better than this.
posted by psmealey at 2:19 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
What America wants-at least the America I know:
An end to corruption in politics.
An end to government waste.
An end to Washington business-as-usual.
Up is down, freedom is slavery, have some Victory Gin, brothers!!
I suspect that this may be one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have ever read on this site. An end to Washington business-as-usual movement spearheaded by the guy whose party has been in power since 1992, and whose answer to every economic travail is "tax cuts" and ever diplomatic flareup is military intervention?
I don't think Bill Kristol could have written any better than this.
posted by psmealey at 2:19 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Pentecostal (to include but not limited to Assembly of God) and Charismatics
Sorry for continuing this derail, but regardless of who you do it in front of, if you emphasise glossolalia you are pentecostal. You can be a charismatic pentecostal, just as you can be a charismatic anglican, baptist or catholic, but if you believe in the gift of tongues as in Acts and 1 Corinthians you are pentecostal.
An end to corruption in politics. An end to government waste.
Yes! So why advocate for those with a record of corruption, waste and mismanagement?
And Miko, as usual, is spot on.
posted by goo at 2:58 AM on September 16, 2008
Sorry for continuing this derail, but regardless of who you do it in front of, if you emphasise glossolalia you are pentecostal. You can be a charismatic pentecostal, just as you can be a charismatic anglican, baptist or catholic, but if you believe in the gift of tongues as in Acts and 1 Corinthians you are pentecostal.
An end to corruption in politics. An end to government waste.
Yes! So why advocate for those with a record of corruption, waste and mismanagement?
And Miko, as usual, is spot on.
posted by goo at 2:58 AM on September 16, 2008
Sorry for continuing this derail, but regardless of who you do it in front of, if you emphasise glossolalia you are pentecostal.
I know a Roman Catholic convent/monastery that does the talking in tongues thing. There is a Charismatic Movement in mainstream churches that is different from Pentecostalism but that does believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, like glossolalia.
posted by davar at 3:32 AM on September 16, 2008
I know a Roman Catholic convent/monastery that does the talking in tongues thing. There is a Charismatic Movement in mainstream churches that is different from Pentecostalism but that does believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, like glossolalia.
posted by davar at 3:32 AM on September 16, 2008
America is sick of...
Right? Who has been driving this bus for the past fucking 8 years, anyway?
posted by dirtdirt at 4:18 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
Right? Who has been driving this bus for the past fucking 8 years, anyway?
posted by dirtdirt at 4:18 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
A grumpy old man whose main attraction is that he isn't a Democrat.
Yes, thank goodness that we'll finally get that terrible Democrat George W. Bush out of the White House. He's really been screwing things up these last eight years. We need something different. A change!
posted by EarBucket at 4:29 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Yes, thank goodness that we'll finally get that terrible Democrat George W. Bush out of the White House. He's really been screwing things up these last eight years. We need something different. A change!
posted by EarBucket at 4:29 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Probably what pisses me off most about white trash is that they're, well, white. They should know better than the rest of the trash, right?
Really? Cause what pisses me off most about white trash is that a bunch of people that objectively suck at life want to tell me how to live mine based on what some former insurance salesman tells them the Bible says during their weekly run-around-a-high-school-gym-looking-building-speaking-gibberish-and-listening-to-terrible-music session. What pisses me off about them is that they take the teachings of Jesus and distort them to fit their ignorant hate filled world view because they never bothered to read the book at the center of their religion, they would really just prefer to hear the gist of it. What pisses me off most about them is that they allow themselves to be led by the hand by whatever authority figure happens by and tells them "Its okay. Life is simple. You don't have to think." What pisses me off most about them is that they want to do away with every bit of progress that mankind has made since the Enlightenment and replace our democracy with a theocratic fascist state. And its not even a reasoned decision! If someone sat around and compared the various forms of government and decided, "Hmmm. I really think theocratic fascism is the way to go." then okay, fine. But they are just so fucking pig-ignorant and uninformed about the world that they just don't know any better. They are too fucking stupid to be allowed to vote for American Idol, much less for president.
That's what pisses me off most about white trash.
You want to try to reason with them and get Republican talking points and "Jesus said so" back at you, then fine. But if it makes me ugly and pathetic to call a spade a fucking spade then so be it.
posted by ND¢ at 4:50 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
Really? Cause what pisses me off most about white trash is that a bunch of people that objectively suck at life want to tell me how to live mine based on what some former insurance salesman tells them the Bible says during their weekly run-around-a-high-school-gym-looking-building-speaking-gibberish-and-listening-to-terrible-music session. What pisses me off about them is that they take the teachings of Jesus and distort them to fit their ignorant hate filled world view because they never bothered to read the book at the center of their religion, they would really just prefer to hear the gist of it. What pisses me off most about them is that they allow themselves to be led by the hand by whatever authority figure happens by and tells them "Its okay. Life is simple. You don't have to think." What pisses me off most about them is that they want to do away with every bit of progress that mankind has made since the Enlightenment and replace our democracy with a theocratic fascist state. And its not even a reasoned decision! If someone sat around and compared the various forms of government and decided, "Hmmm. I really think theocratic fascism is the way to go." then okay, fine. But they are just so fucking pig-ignorant and uninformed about the world that they just don't know any better. They are too fucking stupid to be allowed to vote for American Idol, much less for president.
That's what pisses me off most about white trash.
You want to try to reason with them and get Republican talking points and "Jesus said so" back at you, then fine. But if it makes me ugly and pathetic to call a spade a fucking spade then so be it.
posted by ND¢ at 4:50 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
Would those be the kids he abandoned when he left his first wife for a younger, prettier, and much richer model?
As for the "America you know," I know that America very, very well. And I have news for you and some other people in that America: you don't own the country, and people who think and live differently are just as "American" as anyone in a small town or a Christian church. We're people of all faiths, all colors, all sexual persuasions. And we're sick of being told we don't count as Americans.
The exact problem here is a lack of understanding, sympathy, or respect for the America you *don't* know. People who live in small towns, go to church every week, and want to set the clock back to a nostalgic fairy tale that never existed are, get this, a *minority* in the US. A minority utterly caught up in the need to prove that everyone else is a "minority."
Konolia, you are no better an "American" than anyone else who votes in this country.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [13 favorites]
Would those be the kids he abandoned when he left his first wife for a younger, prettier, and much richer model?
As for the "America you know," I know that America very, very well. And I have news for you and some other people in that America: you don't own the country, and people who think and live differently are just as "American" as anyone in a small town or a Christian church. We're people of all faiths, all colors, all sexual persuasions. And we're sick of being told we don't count as Americans.
The exact problem here is a lack of understanding, sympathy, or respect for the America you *don't* know. People who live in small towns, go to church every week, and want to set the clock back to a nostalgic fairy tale that never existed are, get this, a *minority* in the US. A minority utterly caught up in the need to prove that everyone else is a "minority."
Konolia, you are no better an "American" than anyone else who votes in this country.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [13 favorites]
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
Ah, so you're sick of Bush (Yale and Harvard) spinning vast and glorious plans ("the war on terror," the extension of executive power) by way of a fawning media (Fox News, CNN) machine?
Good.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:07 AM on September 16, 2008 [10 favorites]
Ah, so you're sick of Bush (Yale and Harvard) spinning vast and glorious plans ("the war on terror," the extension of executive power) by way of a fawning media (Fox News, CNN) machine?
Good.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:07 AM on September 16, 2008 [10 favorites]
E. J. Dionne's Washington Post column nails the elitisim vs. reg'lr folks bullshit today. We're not going to change the mind of someone truly parochial and invested in self-righteous defense of parochialism (hint, hint). But for those with half a concept of reality, there's a lot of soul searching going on.
And nothing more exposes the hypocrisy of financial elites riding the coattails of those who revere small-town religious values than a downturn that highlights the vast gulf in power between the two key components of the conservative coalition. Even cultural conservatives will start to notice that McCain's tax policies are geared toward the wealthy investing class and Obama's toward the paycheck crowd. Even the most ardent friends of business have begun to argue that a re-engagement with sensible regulation is essential to restoring capitalism's health.
For some time, McCain's strategists figured they could deflect attention from the big issues by turning Palin into a country-and-western celebrity and launching so many ill-founded attacks on Obama that the truth would never catch up. The McCain strategists' approach reflected a low opinion of average voters, and some Obama supporters began worrying that their opinion might be right.
But those so-called average voters understand the difference between low- and high-stakes elections. They develop a reasonably good sense of who is telling the truth and who is not. And though it sometimes takes a while -- and a shock like this week's economic news -- these voters almost always turn on politicians who manipulate cultural symbols as a way to escape the consequences of their policies.
Now that, "my friends," is 'nuff said.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
And nothing more exposes the hypocrisy of financial elites riding the coattails of those who revere small-town religious values than a downturn that highlights the vast gulf in power between the two key components of the conservative coalition. Even cultural conservatives will start to notice that McCain's tax policies are geared toward the wealthy investing class and Obama's toward the paycheck crowd. Even the most ardent friends of business have begun to argue that a re-engagement with sensible regulation is essential to restoring capitalism's health.
For some time, McCain's strategists figured they could deflect attention from the big issues by turning Palin into a country-and-western celebrity and launching so many ill-founded attacks on Obama that the truth would never catch up. The McCain strategists' approach reflected a low opinion of average voters, and some Obama supporters began worrying that their opinion might be right.
But those so-called average voters understand the difference between low- and high-stakes elections. They develop a reasonably good sense of who is telling the truth and who is not. And though it sometimes takes a while -- and a shock like this week's economic news -- these voters almost always turn on politicians who manipulate cultural symbols as a way to escape the consequences of their policies.
Now that, "my friends," is 'nuff said.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, wow. And even that first-rate tool of the country club GOP set, David "what me, make shit up?" Brooks has abandoned McCain/Palin today. I don't think he bought "In what respect, Charlie?" either. Mind you, he still manages to snark about elitism on the left, but he's lost his faith in Saint McCain:
Sarah Palin has many virtues. If you wanted someone to destroy a corrupt establishment, she’d be your woman. But the constructive act of governance is another matter. She has not been engaged in national issues, does not have a repertoire of historic patterns and, like President Bush, she seems to compensate for her lack of experience with brashness and excessive decisiveness.
The idea that “the people” will take on and destroy “the establishment” is a utopian fantasy that corrupted the left before it corrupted the right. Surely the response to the current crisis of authority is not to throw away standards of experience and prudence, but to select leaders who have those qualities but not the smug condescension that has so marked the reaction to the Palin nomination in the first place.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2008
Sarah Palin has many virtues. If you wanted someone to destroy a corrupt establishment, she’d be your woman. But the constructive act of governance is another matter. She has not been engaged in national issues, does not have a repertoire of historic patterns and, like President Bush, she seems to compensate for her lack of experience with brashness and excessive decisiveness.
The idea that “the people” will take on and destroy “the establishment” is a utopian fantasy that corrupted the left before it corrupted the right. Surely the response to the current crisis of authority is not to throw away standards of experience and prudence, but to select leaders who have those qualities but not the smug condescension that has so marked the reaction to the Palin nomination in the first place.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2008
Konolia, very sad. You do know McCain also had the balls to leave his disabled wife for Cindy, don't you? I mean, that's some cold shit right there
McCain was no choir boy. Yeah, I knew all that.
You do know that same abandoned wife has a vote for McCain sticker on her car? And is friends with him now?
See here's the thing. This ain't my ideal ticket. Really. But you see, these wonderful awesome Democrats of yours? The ones you all think are going to usher in a Brand New Day? They don't believe that human life is worthy of protection in all its stages. Obama in particular doesn't believe that a baby who manages to be born alive after a late term abortion is worthy of medical care.
Speaking of cold.
No matter how smart or how polished or how presidential the Democrats are this year, they still are Democrats. Who believe in Democrat economic policies. Who still believe that abortion should be legal. Who are not thrilled with my second amendment rights to keep and bear arms. Who think that half the electoral populace are white trash and idiots. How disrespectful. Maybe someone needs a reminder that calling people white trash is not too far removed from calling people the N word.
I cannot vote for them. I will NOT vote for them. And I won't throw my vote away on a third party candidate with no chance, either.
And as for McCain = Bush, that is nonsense. They hate each other. McCain's record is really pretty bipartisan.
posted by konolia at 5:26 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain was no choir boy. Yeah, I knew all that.
You do know that same abandoned wife has a vote for McCain sticker on her car? And is friends with him now?
See here's the thing. This ain't my ideal ticket. Really. But you see, these wonderful awesome Democrats of yours? The ones you all think are going to usher in a Brand New Day? They don't believe that human life is worthy of protection in all its stages. Obama in particular doesn't believe that a baby who manages to be born alive after a late term abortion is worthy of medical care.
Speaking of cold.
No matter how smart or how polished or how presidential the Democrats are this year, they still are Democrats. Who believe in Democrat economic policies. Who still believe that abortion should be legal. Who are not thrilled with my second amendment rights to keep and bear arms. Who think that half the electoral populace are white trash and idiots. How disrespectful. Maybe someone needs a reminder that calling people white trash is not too far removed from calling people the N word.
I cannot vote for them. I will NOT vote for them. And I won't throw my vote away on a third party candidate with no chance, either.
And as for McCain = Bush, that is nonsense. They hate each other. McCain's record is really pretty bipartisan.
posted by konolia at 5:26 AM on September 16, 2008
Personally, I just want to say that I think tossing around "white trash" and other such epithets is NOT HELPFUL to the cause here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:28 AM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:28 AM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
Obama in particular doesn't believe that a baby who manages to be born alive after a late term abortion is worthy of medical care.
That is such bullshit. Konolia, stop flailing wildly and listen to yourself. You're not defending McCain in this crowd, any more than any of us are convincing you to stop being a single issue voter.
That's your right. But you can't just make stuff up and throw out the nastiest right wing spin talking point bullshit and NOT expect a strong reaction here.
Obama does not oppose medical care for babies born alive. That's GOP spin through and through, and absurd on its face. It's a total red herring, meant to smear his character and not characterize his policies. McCain dropped bombs on little children from an airplane. Shall we make that into a talking point as well? He supported and supports a war that has killed *hundreds of thousands* of innocent women and children and babies (and men too). Does that make him a baby killer?
As for the ex with the bumper sticker, here's the difference: Obama doesn't have an ex-wife who needs to forgive him. He's still married to the same woman and raising his own kids with her.
You are not going to convince any of us; and we aren't going to convince you. But there is *some* obligation to be truthful and fair, and you have tossed that obligation overboard. THAT is the problem: on the facts, your candidate has nothing to offer but more of the same culture war BS. The smears and hysteria over things that aren't real (how many late term abortions do you think result in a live birth? For that matter, how many of them are abortions of convenience and not abortions to save the life of a mother or terminate a pregnancy where the fetus has a masive and fatal developmental problem?) are desperate deflections.
We've had the same, damn abortion debate in this country for 30 years. It may be an important issue to you, and fine if so. But there are other issues of far more importance to most of us.
Gods Guns Gays Terror . . . . Later Rinse Repeat and squeeze your eyes tightly shut to avoid war, economic crisis, global environmental catastrophe, and all the rest. It's been the GOP way since Reagan.
As Barack says (and McCain has now taken to stealing, along with every other good idea Obama's campaign has, up to and including website design):
ENOUGH!
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:39 AM on September 16, 2008 [13 favorites]
That is such bullshit. Konolia, stop flailing wildly and listen to yourself. You're not defending McCain in this crowd, any more than any of us are convincing you to stop being a single issue voter.
That's your right. But you can't just make stuff up and throw out the nastiest right wing spin talking point bullshit and NOT expect a strong reaction here.
Obama does not oppose medical care for babies born alive. That's GOP spin through and through, and absurd on its face. It's a total red herring, meant to smear his character and not characterize his policies. McCain dropped bombs on little children from an airplane. Shall we make that into a talking point as well? He supported and supports a war that has killed *hundreds of thousands* of innocent women and children and babies (and men too). Does that make him a baby killer?
As for the ex with the bumper sticker, here's the difference: Obama doesn't have an ex-wife who needs to forgive him. He's still married to the same woman and raising his own kids with her.
You are not going to convince any of us; and we aren't going to convince you. But there is *some* obligation to be truthful and fair, and you have tossed that obligation overboard. THAT is the problem: on the facts, your candidate has nothing to offer but more of the same culture war BS. The smears and hysteria over things that aren't real (how many late term abortions do you think result in a live birth? For that matter, how many of them are abortions of convenience and not abortions to save the life of a mother or terminate a pregnancy where the fetus has a masive and fatal developmental problem?) are desperate deflections.
We've had the same, damn abortion debate in this country for 30 years. It may be an important issue to you, and fine if so. But there are other issues of far more importance to most of us.
Gods Guns Gays Terror . . . . Later Rinse Repeat and squeeze your eyes tightly shut to avoid war, economic crisis, global environmental catastrophe, and all the rest. It's been the GOP way since Reagan.
As Barack says (and McCain has now taken to stealing, along with every other good idea Obama's campaign has, up to and including website design):
ENOUGH!
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:39 AM on September 16, 2008 [13 favorites]
And as for McCain = Bush, that is nonsense. They hate each other.
posted by drezdn at 5:52 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by drezdn at 5:52 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain's record is really pretty bipartisan.
Ahaaa... hahaa.. HAHAHAHA.. BWAAAHHHHAHAAAAAA... no really, stop, hee heee...
Honestly, konolia I sometimes feel sorry for you but then you just drop crazy lines like that and my eyes just bug out. Unbelievable.
posted by like_neon at 5:59 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Ahaaa... hahaa.. HAHAHAHA.. BWAAAHHHHAHAAAAAA... no really, stop, hee heee...
Honestly, konolia I sometimes feel sorry for you but then you just drop crazy lines like that and my eyes just bug out. Unbelievable.
posted by like_neon at 5:59 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Does that make him a baby killer?
I should add that of course these weren't American babies. So I guess Iraqi and Vietnamese babies don't count in the "culture of life."
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:02 AM on September 16, 2008
I should add that of course these weren't American babies. So I guess Iraqi and Vietnamese babies don't count in the "culture of life."
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:02 AM on September 16, 2008
Obama in particular doesn't believe that a baby who manages to be born alive after a late term abortion is worthy of medical care.
Ok, full stop. Konolia, you have opinions that I don't always agree with, but mostly I can understand where you're coming from. Saying worthless and baseless shit like this tells me your a real creep of a human being, or your whole persona on this site is a big shaggy dog joke (one for which we're still waiting for the punchline). This is just shit you're spewing now, and I don't get it at all.
I certainly don't want to censor you like others on this site, but saying absolute nonsense like this just doesn't help things.
I propose you either provide specific evidence of this...statement of yours, or retract it. Can you do the former, and if not, have the guts to do the latter?
posted by zardoz at 6:11 AM on September 16, 2008
Ok, full stop. Konolia, you have opinions that I don't always agree with, but mostly I can understand where you're coming from. Saying worthless and baseless shit like this tells me your a real creep of a human being, or your whole persona on this site is a big shaggy dog joke (one for which we're still waiting for the punchline). This is just shit you're spewing now, and I don't get it at all.
I certainly don't want to censor you like others on this site, but saying absolute nonsense like this just doesn't help things.
I propose you either provide specific evidence of this...statement of yours, or retract it. Can you do the former, and if not, have the guts to do the latter?
posted by zardoz at 6:11 AM on September 16, 2008
Thanks for the cite on the "confusing" doctrine. I'm just as happy to agree that it has meant general "Bush policy" at some times and specific policy at others - but never "His worldview?"
Palin's reference to Bush's worldview might have been a dog-whistle code word for Religious Right audiences.
posted by jonp72 at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2008
Palin's reference to Bush's worldview might have been a dog-whistle code word for Religious Right audiences.
posted by jonp72 at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2008
It's too late for the likes of konolia. She's fully endoctrinated in the Democrats = Evil (my own mother cannot explain why she hates FDR with a passion, even though she was born in 1932 and only 16 years old when he died), just that she does.
Focus on the next generations.
posted by psmealey at 6:19 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Focus on the next generations.
posted by psmealey at 6:19 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
tossing around "white trash" and other such epithets is NOT HELPFUL to the cause here.
Something can be both true and unhelpful, and I am judging people based on their actions, not their race, but in an effort to avoid offending anyone who believes that I am going to hell and wants to force me to live by their version of Sharia law, let me take the racial component out of my condemnation. Instead of "white trash," allow me to change that to "the religious right" or "Christofascists" or "people who don't have the sense to know that glossolalic speech is a material phenomenon which has physical and psychological patterns" or just generally "the incurious" or "the willfully ignorant." I agree that it very well may not be helpful to insult people who don't agree with you. I personally think that there is a segment of the population that is just never going to get on board with modern secular democracy and that it is better to call these people out than to just sit there and let them hit you again and again and never hit back. The intolerant must be tolerated but only insofar as they do not endanger the tolerant society and its institutions. These people want to live in the dark ages, that is fine with me, but the moment they want to drag me and mine down with them, that is the moment they lose the right not to get their precious feelings hurt.
You think people won't vote for Obama cause I called them "white trash"? I say they were never going to vote for him anyway, and it is better to let others know that there aren't two equally valid viewpoints here: one that thinks the Republicans have been in power for eight years and driven the country to the brink of disaster and another who think McCain/Palin are reformers who are going to clean up the system. There are people who base their decisions on reason and logic and reality and there are faith-based liars who will say anything, no matter how untrue, no matter how racist, no matter how inflammatory, to convince people to put them in power so that they can impose their religious code on everyone.
posted by ND¢ at 6:22 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Something can be both true and unhelpful, and I am judging people based on their actions, not their race, but in an effort to avoid offending anyone who believes that I am going to hell and wants to force me to live by their version of Sharia law, let me take the racial component out of my condemnation. Instead of "white trash," allow me to change that to "the religious right" or "Christofascists" or "people who don't have the sense to know that glossolalic speech is a material phenomenon which has physical and psychological patterns" or just generally "the incurious" or "the willfully ignorant." I agree that it very well may not be helpful to insult people who don't agree with you. I personally think that there is a segment of the population that is just never going to get on board with modern secular democracy and that it is better to call these people out than to just sit there and let them hit you again and again and never hit back. The intolerant must be tolerated but only insofar as they do not endanger the tolerant society and its institutions. These people want to live in the dark ages, that is fine with me, but the moment they want to drag me and mine down with them, that is the moment they lose the right not to get their precious feelings hurt.
You think people won't vote for Obama cause I called them "white trash"? I say they were never going to vote for him anyway, and it is better to let others know that there aren't two equally valid viewpoints here: one that thinks the Republicans have been in power for eight years and driven the country to the brink of disaster and another who think McCain/Palin are reformers who are going to clean up the system. There are people who base their decisions on reason and logic and reality and there are faith-based liars who will say anything, no matter how untrue, no matter how racist, no matter how inflammatory, to convince people to put them in power so that they can impose their religious code on everyone.
posted by ND¢ at 6:22 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
An interview with Reverend Howard Bess claims that Palin not only put his book, Pastor, I Am Gay, on a hit list to be banned, but that Palin participated in anti-abortion pickets aimed at shutting down the gynecologist, Dr. Susan Lemagie.
posted by jonp72 at 6:26 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jonp72 at 6:26 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
We're talking about abortion here now? I guess this is now the official Palin thread. Maybe you guys will convince Konoila she's wrong, and do it fewer than 2000 comments. Good luck! Or you know, you could ignore her because her ass is crazy and she's not interested in facts you can't look up in your gut. Last I checked, neither McCain or Obama is running on a More/Less Abortion ticket. I don't know why people let these threads get derailed. And these are long ass threads. It takes a special kind of hard boiled trolling to derail them.
posted by chunking express at 6:34 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by chunking express at 6:34 AM on September 16, 2008
They don't believe that human life is worthy of protection in all its stages
Or, to be more accurate, they DO believe that human life IS worthy of protecting in ALL its stages. Unlike your team, who couldn't be bothered to protect anybody outside of the womb (except where "protect" means remove rights willy-nilly and/or bomb back to the stone age), and will only 'protect' those in the womb cynically and rhetorically, and just long enough to get into office.
Better sex education, safe and legal abortion, a curtailing of random jingoistic wars, and an economic climate where unexpected children are not a financial apocalypse will do vastly more to protect human life in all its stages than trying to overturn Roe v Wade.
Fuck. I'm feeding the... troll? That isn't quite right, but it's pretty close.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:34 AM on September 16, 2008
Or, to be more accurate, they DO believe that human life IS worthy of protecting in ALL its stages. Unlike your team, who couldn't be bothered to protect anybody outside of the womb (except where "protect" means remove rights willy-nilly and/or bomb back to the stone age), and will only 'protect' those in the womb cynically and rhetorically, and just long enough to get into office.
Better sex education, safe and legal abortion, a curtailing of random jingoistic wars, and an economic climate where unexpected children are not a financial apocalypse will do vastly more to protect human life in all its stages than trying to overturn Roe v Wade.
Fuck. I'm feeding the... troll? That isn't quite right, but it's pretty close.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:34 AM on September 16, 2008
Fuck. I'm feeding the... troll? That isn't quite right, but it's pretty close.
No, you're feeding the troll. There's nothing close about it. You're arguing with the lady that WILL NOT BEND!!11! What exactly are you hoping to get out of this? What does anyone here hope to accomplish.
When Konoila actually has a say what you can do with your va-jay-jay, then arguing with her and trying to refute her crazy talk might be worth your time. While she's blathering on the Internet about Obama eating aborted babies, not so much.
posted by chunking express at 6:45 AM on September 16, 2008
No, you're feeding the troll. There's nothing close about it. You're arguing with the lady that WILL NOT BEND!!11! What exactly are you hoping to get out of this? What does anyone here hope to accomplish.
When Konoila actually has a say what you can do with your va-jay-jay, then arguing with her and trying to refute her crazy talk might be worth your time. While she's blathering on the Internet about Obama eating aborted babies, not so much.
posted by chunking express at 6:45 AM on September 16, 2008
Palin's reference to Bush's worldview might have been a dog-whistle code word for Religious Right audiences.
I think that's a little over the top. Palin may have heard the word a lot in church, but that doesn't mean she thought it had some secret dog-whistle meaning. I mean "worldview" doesn't actually mean anything different to evangelicals then it does to secular people, and besides her entire candidacy is one giant dog whistle, why bother adding more too it.
Anyway, the conservatives have got a 5/4 majority in the supreme court now. There's no reason to think that they won't be able to eventually overturn the court. If McCain gets in the people picking his judicial nominations will be at least as crazy as those who picked his VP.
Those who want to end abortion really are on the cusp of success. It make sense for them to support this ticket.
posted by delmoi at 6:48 AM on September 16, 2008
I think that's a little over the top. Palin may have heard the word a lot in church, but that doesn't mean she thought it had some secret dog-whistle meaning. I mean "worldview" doesn't actually mean anything different to evangelicals then it does to secular people, and besides her entire candidacy is one giant dog whistle, why bother adding more too it.
Anyway, the conservatives have got a 5/4 majority in the supreme court now. There's no reason to think that they won't be able to eventually overturn the court. If McCain gets in the people picking his judicial nominations will be at least as crazy as those who picked his VP.
Those who want to end abortion really are on the cusp of success. It make sense for them to support this ticket.
posted by delmoi at 6:48 AM on September 16, 2008
OK, let's stop stereotyping small town people, Christians, hunters, and rural people. And in fact, let's stop stereotyping small town Alaskans.
I spend a lot of time in a small town in rural Alaska. Native Alaska, to be specific.
And my Native friends are supporting Obama. Just to counter the konolian version of "America," let' be clear: these are small-town Alaskan hunters, churchgoing Christians (Presbyterian, Assemblies of God, or non-denom charismatics), gun owners (as in even 7 year old girls shoot like military marksmen) and mostly staunchly anti-abortion. They are extremely family-centered people. They have an unbelievable record of military service and heroism. They believe oil exploration on the North Slope is necessary and can be done carefully. And almost to a one, they are supporting Barack Obama because they are thinking, intelligent people who can see the big picture. The Palin nomination was charming to them for a week, because everyone knows her up there (indeed, I met her for a handshake back in June). But now they are busy sorting out their reactions and it has moved from surprise to astonishment to foreboding.
I thought of this because an Inupiaq buddy sent this to his email list this morning:
http://turtletalk.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/palin-on-tribes/
Palin on Tribes
From Lloyd Miller & Heather Kendall Miller
Sarah Palin’s Record on Alaska Native and Tribal Issues
--- And here are the highlighted topics. Complete and detailed (and footnoted) cases for each of these points can be found at the link above. --
1. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing
2. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Hunting
3. Palin has attacked Alaska Tribal Sovereignty
4. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Languages
Sarah Palin's husband is part Yupik; no one is alleging that she's an anti-Native racist (I know people that say she is, in that casual way that so many white Alaskans are). She certainly has fans and advocates in the Native community. But her policies have been anti-Native, and the policies of the GOP in Alaska have been systematically anti-Native, and pro-big-oil, which hates having to go through sovereign Native political institutions to get its paws on the black gold under the tundra.
Haven't heard much at all about this stuff on the news, so I hope this is interesting to some folks. Mind you, konolia, I've been to church with these people -- my friends on the North Slope, almost all people of very modest means -- dozens of times, said grace with them over meals, and gone hunting with them on the sea ice. I've said the pledge of allegiance with them on the 4th of July. I've debated the morality of abortion (and many other things) with them in a spirit of open and honest intellectual exchange. They believe a lot of what your "Americans I know" believe about salvation and grace and guns and patriotism.
But they are appalled by the pick of Sarah Palin and strongly supportive of Obama, still, almost to a one.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:55 AM on September 16, 2008 [12 favorites]
I spend a lot of time in a small town in rural Alaska. Native Alaska, to be specific.
And my Native friends are supporting Obama. Just to counter the konolian version of "America," let' be clear: these are small-town Alaskan hunters, churchgoing Christians (Presbyterian, Assemblies of God, or non-denom charismatics), gun owners (as in even 7 year old girls shoot like military marksmen) and mostly staunchly anti-abortion. They are extremely family-centered people. They have an unbelievable record of military service and heroism. They believe oil exploration on the North Slope is necessary and can be done carefully. And almost to a one, they are supporting Barack Obama because they are thinking, intelligent people who can see the big picture. The Palin nomination was charming to them for a week, because everyone knows her up there (indeed, I met her for a handshake back in June). But now they are busy sorting out their reactions and it has moved from surprise to astonishment to foreboding.
I thought of this because an Inupiaq buddy sent this to his email list this morning:
http://turtletalk.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/palin-on-tribes/
Palin on Tribes
From Lloyd Miller & Heather Kendall Miller
Sarah Palin’s Record on Alaska Native and Tribal Issues
--- And here are the highlighted topics. Complete and detailed (and footnoted) cases for each of these points can be found at the link above. --
1. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing
2. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Hunting
3. Palin has attacked Alaska Tribal Sovereignty
4. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Languages
Sarah Palin's husband is part Yupik; no one is alleging that she's an anti-Native racist (I know people that say she is, in that casual way that so many white Alaskans are). She certainly has fans and advocates in the Native community. But her policies have been anti-Native, and the policies of the GOP in Alaska have been systematically anti-Native, and pro-big-oil, which hates having to go through sovereign Native political institutions to get its paws on the black gold under the tundra.
Haven't heard much at all about this stuff on the news, so I hope this is interesting to some folks. Mind you, konolia, I've been to church with these people -- my friends on the North Slope, almost all people of very modest means -- dozens of times, said grace with them over meals, and gone hunting with them on the sea ice. I've said the pledge of allegiance with them on the 4th of July. I've debated the morality of abortion (and many other things) with them in a spirit of open and honest intellectual exchange. They believe a lot of what your "Americans I know" believe about salvation and grace and guns and patriotism.
But they are appalled by the pick of Sarah Palin and strongly supportive of Obama, still, almost to a one.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:55 AM on September 16, 2008 [12 favorites]
I have no illusions about McCain. I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.
Well, good for you! I just spit out my breakfast laughing.
I have a neighbor whose sister-in-law's brother's best friend once shook hands with President Bush before he was president. She had no illusions about Bush!
posted by ericb at 6:57 AM on September 16, 2008
Well, good for you! I just spit out my breakfast laughing.
I have a neighbor whose sister-in-law's brother's best friend once shook hands with President Bush before he was president. She had no illusions about Bush!
posted by ericb at 6:57 AM on September 16, 2008
You think people won't vote for Obama cause I called them "white trash"?
No, I think it forecloses an end to the polarization of this country to use language like that to stereotype people of very diverse views and characters.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:59 AM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
No, I think it forecloses an end to the polarization of this country to use language like that to stereotype people of very diverse views and characters.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:59 AM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
By the way, Obama is not looking to expand government, but actually to cut programs using a line-item review. Bush (with help from senators like McCain) has led the federal government through an unpredecedented expansion - actually, a ballooining - which is drawing more heavily on the tax base than we can sustain. McCain's continued work in this direction sounds like it would be exactly antithetical to what you wish to see.
Right you are, Miko. I still haven't figured out why the Obama campaign isn't all over this in the press--this is the central tenet of modern conservative political philosophy, the 'small government' flag that Goldwater ran up the flag in the 80's and that a huge swath of the conservative base continues to insist (against all logic) is what characterizes the Republican party. It's clearly not the case; the last 8 years has seen the biggest increase in federal budget outlays since WWII. If you consider times of peace (and it would be a serious stretch to analogize the GWAT to WWII), the increase in federal spending under Bush (just under 55% between 2000 and 2007, if Wikipedia's and the White House's numbers are to be believed) is the largest since Roosevelt's tenure (just over 38% between 1934 and 1940, by the same sources). The difference there, of course, is that Roosevelt used that massive spending increase to create billions of dollars in infrastructure investment and drop the unemployment rate by double digits. Since the Republicans have taken over, they've used their monstrous budget hikes to kill 600,000 brown people and create an entire new branch of federal government, with the net effect that we have to take our shoes off when we get on an airplane.
Seems to me that if the Democrats were to take this and run with it, they could absolutely crush McCain on anything even vaguely shaped like the economy--a 55% expansion in government, and they have the DHS to show for it. And you're worried Obama is going to raise taxes?
posted by Mayor West at 7:01 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Right you are, Miko. I still haven't figured out why the Obama campaign isn't all over this in the press--this is the central tenet of modern conservative political philosophy, the 'small government' flag that Goldwater ran up the flag in the 80's and that a huge swath of the conservative base continues to insist (against all logic) is what characterizes the Republican party. It's clearly not the case; the last 8 years has seen the biggest increase in federal budget outlays since WWII. If you consider times of peace (and it would be a serious stretch to analogize the GWAT to WWII), the increase in federal spending under Bush (just under 55% between 2000 and 2007, if Wikipedia's and the White House's numbers are to be believed) is the largest since Roosevelt's tenure (just over 38% between 1934 and 1940, by the same sources). The difference there, of course, is that Roosevelt used that massive spending increase to create billions of dollars in infrastructure investment and drop the unemployment rate by double digits. Since the Republicans have taken over, they've used their monstrous budget hikes to kill 600,000 brown people and create an entire new branch of federal government, with the net effect that we have to take our shoes off when we get on an airplane.
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Seems to me that if the Democrats were to take this and run with it, they could absolutely crush McCain on anything even vaguely shaped like the economy--a 55% expansion in government, and they have the DHS to show for it. And you're worried Obama is going to raise taxes?
posted by Mayor West at 7:01 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
tossing around "white trash" and other such epithets is NOT HELPFUL to the cause here.
Something can be both true and unhelpful, and I am judging people based on their actions
ND¢, I get what you're saying here, I do, but as a girl who was raised in the South I can tell you that the term "white trash" is a spectacularly loaded phrase -- in the same realm as the N-word, although with only a fraction of the baggage, of course. Regardless, it's a shitty thing to call someone -- much less as a tool to generalize about an entire swath of the population -- no matter how much you think they've earned it, and it's certainly not a term to throw around so cavalierly.
If anything, it's less about hurting the feelings of the people in question and more about undercutting the weight of your own argument. A racial epithet, regardless of the race at which it's directed, is beneath you, and I'd be grateful if you could knock it off.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Something can be both true and unhelpful, and I am judging people based on their actions
ND¢, I get what you're saying here, I do, but as a girl who was raised in the South I can tell you that the term "white trash" is a spectacularly loaded phrase -- in the same realm as the N-word, although with only a fraction of the baggage, of course. Regardless, it's a shitty thing to call someone -- much less as a tool to generalize about an entire swath of the population -- no matter how much you think they've earned it, and it's certainly not a term to throw around so cavalierly.
If anything, it's less about hurting the feelings of the people in question and more about undercutting the weight of your own argument. A racial epithet, regardless of the race at which it's directed, is beneath you, and I'd be grateful if you could knock it off.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
And on preview: what fourcheesemac said.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:02 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:02 AM on September 16, 2008
So the liar has turned this into an abortion thread too, eh? Swell.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 AM on September 16, 2008
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
You know who else went to Harvard? Yep -- Bill O'Reilly, spinmeister galore!
posted by ericb at 7:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know who else went to Harvard? Yep -- Bill O'Reilly, spinmeister galore!
posted by ericb at 7:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids. Nuff said.What on earth is that even supposed to mean?
It means Konolia will be qualified to run the Department of Health & Human Services in the new administration! Congratulations!
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [7 favorites]
"Those who want to end abortion really are on the cusp of success. It make sense for them to support this ticket."
The people who want to end LEGAL abortion think they are on the cusp of success. Illegal aborters are on their own. konolia said it - if death is a consequence of ILLEGAL abortion, so be it.
Abortion is not supposed to be the solution for all the problems we can think of. It's for the situations we can't even imagine.
posted by no, that other sockpuppet at 7:06 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
The people who want to end LEGAL abortion think they are on the cusp of success. Illegal aborters are on their own. konolia said it - if death is a consequence of ILLEGAL abortion, so be it.
Abortion is not supposed to be the solution for all the problems we can think of. It's for the situations we can't even imagine.
posted by no, that other sockpuppet at 7:06 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
If you have a problem with academics pushing untested theories, have a problem with the party that follows such flawed research. The theorists who never test their theories and continue to insist upon them despite evidence to the contrary are working for the Republican party.
If you have a problem with people just for having gone to university and worked hard and studied, well, all I can say is that I respect people who work hard and who try their best no matter what they set their hands or mind to.
posted by jb at 7:24 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you have a problem with academics pushing untested theories, have a problem with the party that follows such flawed research. The theorists who never test their theories and continue to insist upon them despite evidence to the contrary are working for the Republican party.
If you have a problem with people just for having gone to university and worked hard and studied, well, all I can say is that I respect people who work hard and who try their best no matter what they set their hands or mind to.
posted by jb at 7:24 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin's reference to Bush's worldview might have been a dog-whistle code word for Religious Right audiences.
OMG DID YOU JUST CALL EVANGELICALS DOGS??1!!ONE111!
posted by contessa at 7:29 AM on September 16, 2008
OMG DID YOU JUST CALL EVANGELICALS DOGS??1!!ONE111!
posted by contessa at 7:29 AM on September 16, 2008
shiu mai baby and fourcheesemac: you are probably right. Deserved or not, it is not me putting my best foot forward or a good way to win over others. As for growing up in the South shiu mai baby, I grew up in a town in South Carolina (I still live in the state, but not the town) of around 20,000 people with a per capita income average below $15,000 and went to public schools for my entire education. I know of what I speak and I know the connotations of it. That being said, consider it dropped.
posted by ND¢ at 7:30 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ND¢ at 7:30 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Forget lipstick, mooseburgers and beehive hair-do's. It's the economy, stupid.
New Obama Ad: John McCain Doesn't Understand the Economy Is Broken.
The campaigns took a detour on 'identity politics' and is "back-on-track" with a focus on issues.
posted by ericb at 7:41 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
New Obama Ad: John McCain Doesn't Understand the Economy Is Broken.
The campaigns took a detour on 'identity politics' and is "back-on-track" with a focus on issues.
posted by ericb at 7:41 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hope the Obama campaign drops bad ads like the "McCain can't use a computer" and sticks to stuff like this. The worm is turning. Just watch. Something is up, with people like Brooks and Cohen turning on McCain. Should be an interesting week. (And month).
posted by Bookhouse at 7:47 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 7:47 AM on September 16, 2008
John McCain yesterday: "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."
Uh-oh -- Goldman Sachs Earnings Fall 70%. Hmmm...Freddie, Fannie, Lehmann Brothers, AIG ... and piss poor performance from the largest investment banker. Things are looking good. We're all just a nation of "whiners!"
posted by ericb at 7:49 AM on September 16, 2008
Uh-oh -- Goldman Sachs Earnings Fall 70%. Hmmm...Freddie, Fannie, Lehmann Brothers, AIG ... and piss poor performance from the largest investment banker. Things are looking good. We're all just a nation of "whiners!"
posted by ericb at 7:49 AM on September 16, 2008
"The fundamentals of our economy are strong."
McCain must mean "ours" = "my family." Makes sense. With over a $100 million,7, 10, 12 homes, a private jet, etc. the McCain family is doing just okay.
posted by ericb at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain must mean "ours" = "my family." Makes sense. With over a $100 million,
posted by ericb at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2008
Yeah, that's one of the things yesterday that just made me want to tear my hair out: on the day of one of the biggest drops in the DJIA, when Lehman Brothers, that old stalwart of the banking world, went broke, and Merrill Lynch on the verge of becoming a Bank of America property, John McCain has the brass ones to say that "the fundamentals of our economy are still strong."
Holy shit, that is some seriously out-of-touch speechifying right there.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2008
Holy shit, that is some seriously out-of-touch speechifying right there.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2008
Joe Biden:
"My lord, take a look at what — who got us in this hole, whose policies. This has been a Republican philosophy of letting Wall Street do what they want and the middle class be damned. It's about time we change it. If I sound like I'm angry, I am fighting mad for middle-class people who have been the scapegoat of this economy because of the policies of the McCains and the Bushes."posted by ericb at 7:55 AM on September 16, 2008
You want to try to reason with them and get Republican talking points and "Jesus said so" back at you, then fine. But if it makes me ugly and pathetic to call a spade a fucking spade then so be it.
Why would I want to argue with a social caricature you've exaggerated to justify your bilious nonsense? How could I?
Instead of "white trash," allow me to change that to "the religious right" or "Christofascists"
I don't think the primary actors in that movement get the majority of their funding from Bubba redeeming his empties.
Here's a CNN demographic breakdown of exit poll results from the 2004 election, which featured the highest turn-out since 1968. While Bush got most of the white, Protestant, socially conservative vote, only 36% of the voters whose income is less than $15K (8% of the total) voted for him compared to Kerry's 63%. Bush leads when income gets above $50k and the divide between he and Kerry gets wider as the income bracket widens.
So, not poor uneducated white trash.
In regards to education, Bush and Kerry split the 4% of voters who didn't graduate high school, and then Bush narrowly leads among the 80% of voters who completed high school, attended college, and completed college. Kerry wins the post-grads, but the spread's only 11%
So, not uneducated white trash.
78% of Jesus freaks went for Bush, but that is only 78% of the 23% who self-identified as evangelical/born again. They aren't kingmakers, they're motivated voters. Blame the 44.7% who didn't vote. Odds are a chunk of that 44.7% is a lot closer to your vapid imaginings anyway (Disenfranchised, uneducated, poor), but keep tilting at those windmills and enjoy your imaginary culture war, hero. The grown-ups will do the real work.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
Why would I want to argue with a social caricature you've exaggerated to justify your bilious nonsense? How could I?
Instead of "white trash," allow me to change that to "the religious right" or "Christofascists"
I don't think the primary actors in that movement get the majority of their funding from Bubba redeeming his empties.
Here's a CNN demographic breakdown of exit poll results from the 2004 election, which featured the highest turn-out since 1968. While Bush got most of the white, Protestant, socially conservative vote, only 36% of the voters whose income is less than $15K (8% of the total) voted for him compared to Kerry's 63%. Bush leads when income gets above $50k and the divide between he and Kerry gets wider as the income bracket widens.
So, not poor uneducated white trash.
In regards to education, Bush and Kerry split the 4% of voters who didn't graduate high school, and then Bush narrowly leads among the 80% of voters who completed high school, attended college, and completed college. Kerry wins the post-grads, but the spread's only 11%
So, not uneducated white trash.
78% of Jesus freaks went for Bush, but that is only 78% of the 23% who self-identified as evangelical/born again. They aren't kingmakers, they're motivated voters. Blame the 44.7% who didn't vote. Odds are a chunk of that 44.7% is a lot closer to your vapid imaginings anyway (Disenfranchised, uneducated, poor), but keep tilting at those windmills and enjoy your imaginary culture war, hero. The grown-ups will do the real work.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
Something else the Obama people need to get out there--
From a Bob Herbert column today:
A study coming out Tuesday from scholars at Columbia, Harvard, Purdue and Michigan projects that 20 million Americans who have employment-based health insurance would lose it under the McCain plan.
(Of course, probably some of those so-called "scholars" like arugula, so they don't count.)
posted by neroli at 8:04 AM on September 16, 2008
From a Bob Herbert column today:
A study coming out Tuesday from scholars at Columbia, Harvard, Purdue and Michigan projects that 20 million Americans who have employment-based health insurance would lose it under the McCain plan.
(Of course, probably some of those so-called "scholars" like arugula, so they don't count.)
posted by neroli at 8:04 AM on September 16, 2008
Another new Obama ad , on equal pay.
Yep. Back to the issues. Why waste breath on Palin? The Obama/Biden campaign will stay focused on issues from this point forward. McCain/Palin will try to distract with dirty politics, sleaze and identity politics.
Many, if not most, Americans are concerned about what this economic downturn (heck, yesterday was the worst day on Wall Street since 9/11 with $700 billion in shareholder wealth erased) might mean to them: the stability of their jobs, the general health of their retirement plans, consumer prices, gas/oil prices, etc.
The average American has no time to split the hairs on what the Bush Doctrine means.
The headlines now are: McCain has become a liar, is "out-of-touch." Tell us, McCain, how can you truly be the agent of change? Obama, tell us your plans for aiding the current crisis.
posted by ericb at 8:05 AM on September 16, 2008
Yep. Back to the issues. Why waste breath on Palin? The Obama/Biden campaign will stay focused on issues from this point forward. McCain/Palin will try to distract with dirty politics, sleaze and identity politics.
Many, if not most, Americans are concerned about what this economic downturn (heck, yesterday was the worst day on Wall Street since 9/11 with $700 billion in shareholder wealth erased) might mean to them: the stability of their jobs, the general health of their retirement plans, consumer prices, gas/oil prices, etc.
The average American has no time to split the hairs on what the Bush Doctrine means.
The headlines now are: McCain has become a liar, is "out-of-touch." Tell us, McCain, how can you truly be the agent of change? Obama, tell us your plans for aiding the current crisis.
posted by ericb at 8:05 AM on September 16, 2008
neroli -- would you please stop posting fancy-pants research and elsewhere facts! And, yes, those elitists just spin those numbers every which way to scare us!
posted by ericb at 8:07 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by ericb at 8:07 AM on September 16, 2008
Hey, did you hear that McCain invented the BlackBerry? He also invented these delicious fries, and luscious chocolate cake*, and oh, yeah, insulin. Yeah, that's the ticket.
* A lie.
posted by maudlin at 8:09 AM on September 16, 2008
* A lie.
posted by maudlin at 8:09 AM on September 16, 2008
John McCain yesterday: "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."
John McCain (January 2008):
posted by ericb at 8:14 AM on September 16, 2008
John McCain (January 2008):
"'The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.'His words instill confidence and inspiration, don't they?
...'I don’t believe we’re headed into a recession,' he said, 'I believe the fundamentals of this economy are strong and I believe they will remain strong.'"
posted by ericb at 8:14 AM on September 16, 2008
A funny piece on Palin in the New Yorker.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Bookhouse at 8:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain Admits He's "Divorced" From Reality: "It's easy for me to go to Washington, and frankly, be somewhat divorced from the day-to-day challenges people have."
Palin's Favorability Numbers Eroding
posted by kirkaracha at 8:19 AM on September 16, 2008
Palin's Favorability Numbers Eroding
posted by kirkaracha at 8:19 AM on September 16, 2008
Even Mitt Romney is calling McCain a liar!!!. But actually I'm pretty sure that video is from the primary campaign when McCain lied about him and claimed Mitt opposed the surge.
It's kind of interesting how Romney had the same issues with McCain that Obama does now. McCain was lying about him, and Romney was complaining that McCain's campaign was full of lobbyists. Except no one cared because everyone hated Mitt Romney.
posted by delmoi at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2008
It's kind of interesting how Romney had the same issues with McCain that Obama does now. McCain was lying about him, and Romney was complaining that McCain's campaign was full of lobbyists. Except no one cared because everyone hated Mitt Romney.
posted by delmoi at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2008
Krugman: Phil Gramm [McCain economic adviser and “odds-on favorite to be the Treasury Secretary”] would be ‘just the guy’ to lead us into a Great Depression.
posted by ericb at 8:25 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by ericb at 8:25 AM on September 16, 2008
Yo, Gramm -- Suggestions Welcome
"Given that Enron-linked former senator, McCain economic advisor, and mortgage-industry-specializing banking lobbyist Phil Gramm has been credited as mover and shaker behind the very law that allowed the current financial meltdown to happen, I'd love to hear what McCain and Gramm think should be done to solve this crisis.posted by ericb at 8:29 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
As of yet, of course, their only response is to deny that any of it is significant. No problem, everything's fine. Sure, people are losing their homes to foreclosure; sure, investors are being wiped out. But hey, aside from that, everything's peachy.
Nonetheless... since McCain has indeed pegged Gramm as 'one of the smartest person in the world' when it comes to economics, I'm dying to find out what Phil Gramm thinks should be done to fix the problem that Phil Gramm and the other lets-deregulate-everything Republicans helped create.
Maybe drilling will fix it?
Maybe more deregulation will allow the free market to something something something?
Maybe if we had poured all our Social Security into these institutions, this would never have happened, because the free market dictates that private retirement investments always go up. Just like how dropped toast always lands on its edge?
Maybe the Republicans have invented a machine to convert bullshit into gold?
Maybe Lehman Brothers should have sold more stuff on eBay?
No, seriously -- I'm all ears. What's your advice to America this time, Gramm? McCain?"
Have the wheels come off the straight talk express?
Yep. Big time!
posted by ericb at 8:29 AM on September 16, 2008
Yep. Big time!
posted by ericb at 8:29 AM on September 16, 2008
the McCain health plan would treat employer-paid health benefits as income that employees would have to pay taxes on.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:37 AM on September 16, 2008 [6 favorites]
The net effect of the plan, the study said, “almost certainly will be to increase family costs for medical care.”More proof that McCain is an arrogant bastard who has no idea of how regular (i.e. non-millionaire, non-congress) people live in America. Right now the "free market" has screwed tens of millions, charging them outrageous amounts because they have prior medical conditions such as...cancerous melanomas or caesarians or chronic ear infections. Ten years ago the Repulicans were able to scare people off the idea of Nationalized Health Care Coverage, but the last 10 years have made the situation more dire and most Americans are just begging for relief.
Under the McCain plan (now the McCain-Palin plan) employees who continue to receive employer-paid health benefits would look at their pay stubs each week or each month and find that additional money had been withheld to cover the taxes on the value of their benefits.
Yet another radical element of McCain’s plan is his proposal to undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be meaningless.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:37 AM on September 16, 2008 [6 favorites]
Much as I hate to bring the abortion derail to this thread, I am still astonished that people who vigorously debate konolia on this subject apparently do not even know the biggest problem that pro life people have with Obama: the fact that he voted against a law that sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention. Obama has since nuanced his opinion (he now says that he supports the new federal law that essentially says the same thing), but still, his voting shows he is not just pro-choice, but much more pro choice than most people. The reasoning he gives ("it is such a burden to the doctors who have to care for the children that are born alive after an abortion attempt") also does not sound very compassionate. I truly support Obama, and I consider myself pro-choice but I vehemently disagree with him on this.
This article makes excellent points. The fact that abortion is such an all or nothing debate in American politics at the moment is not a good thing.
posted by davar at 8:43 AM on September 16, 2008
This article makes excellent points. The fact that abortion is such an all or nothing debate in American politics at the moment is not a good thing.
posted by davar at 8:43 AM on September 16, 2008
The net effect of the plan, the study said, “almost certainly will be to increase family costs for medical care.”
Under the McCain plan (now the McCain-Palin plan) employees who continue to receive employer-paid health benefits would look at their pay stubs each week or each month and find that additional money had been withheld to cover the taxes on the value of their benefits.
Right now a lot of people have no idea how much their employer's contribution is. They think that the amount that comes out of their check pre-tax is the amount they pay for insurance. You wanna see public perception of the health care situation and the best way to fix it change real fast, this will do it. Let 'em see how much this stuff really costs and watch how they react if it's an acknowledged part of their pay. But yeah, it would be pretty painful.
posted by dilettante at 8:46 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Under the McCain plan (now the McCain-Palin plan) employees who continue to receive employer-paid health benefits would look at their pay stubs each week or each month and find that additional money had been withheld to cover the taxes on the value of their benefits.
Right now a lot of people have no idea how much their employer's contribution is. They think that the amount that comes out of their check pre-tax is the amount they pay for insurance. You wanna see public perception of the health care situation and the best way to fix it change real fast, this will do it. Let 'em see how much this stuff really costs and watch how they react if it's an acknowledged part of their pay. But yeah, it would be pretty painful.
posted by dilettante at 8:46 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I really hope the Obama campaign brings the health care debate into the foreground and pushes back hard against McCain's plan. I think it's one of the most powerful things he's got, and not just because of the facts.
Over the last couple of weeks, I've been reading the various comments threads attached to the NYT articles and editorials. (I know...I've gone insane...I admit that.) Whatever the topic of the piece, the responses have been more or less the same: McCain people shouting McCain talking points, and Obama people shouting Obama talking points. (Granted, the latter have a curious tendency to be supported by facts.) The responses to the Bob Herbert editorial are different. Suddenly people are telling their own own stories. They're talking about medical problems they've experienced and seen close up, and how they've been screwed over by the insurance companies. It's powerful stuff.
We need to hear more of these stories. I think there are a lot of people who, when they hear the Republican line (privatization makes things more efficient, what's good for business is good for America) have an automatic tendency to believe it--but just in the abstract. When they're asked to think about their own encounters with big business, they can come up with plenty of stories about being ignored, taken advantage of, and run ragged.
This is the way to make populism work for the Democrats.
posted by neroli at 8:47 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Over the last couple of weeks, I've been reading the various comments threads attached to the NYT articles and editorials. (I know...I've gone insane...I admit that.) Whatever the topic of the piece, the responses have been more or less the same: McCain people shouting McCain talking points, and Obama people shouting Obama talking points. (Granted, the latter have a curious tendency to be supported by facts.) The responses to the Bob Herbert editorial are different. Suddenly people are telling their own own stories. They're talking about medical problems they've experienced and seen close up, and how they've been screwed over by the insurance companies. It's powerful stuff.
We need to hear more of these stories. I think there are a lot of people who, when they hear the Republican line (privatization makes things more efficient, what's good for business is good for America) have an automatic tendency to believe it--but just in the abstract. When they're asked to think about their own encounters with big business, they can come up with plenty of stories about being ignored, taken advantage of, and run ragged.
This is the way to make populism work for the Democrats.
posted by neroli at 8:47 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Suddenly people are telling their own own stories. They're talking about medical problems they've experienced and seen close up, and how they've been screwed over by the insurance companies. It's powerful stuff.
If anyone hasn't seen Michael Moore's 'Sicko' [trailer], I highly recommend seeing it!
posted by ericb at 8:53 AM on September 16, 2008
If anyone hasn't seen Michael Moore's 'Sicko' [trailer], I highly recommend seeing it!
posted by ericb at 8:53 AM on September 16, 2008
With the passing of David Foster Wallace, I was reminded of his piece in Rolling Stone covering the Straight Talk Express during the 2000 primaries. It is a long read, but worth it.
What is amazing is just what a 180 McCain has done pretty much on everything. McCain is using the exact same tactics against Obama now that were used against him in 2000. The man that ended each of his stump speeches with "I. Won't. Lie" is now doing the complete opposite.
posted by birdherder at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
What is amazing is just what a 180 McCain has done pretty much on everything. McCain is using the exact same tactics against Obama now that were used against him in 2000. The man that ended each of his stump speeches with "I. Won't. Lie" is now doing the complete opposite.
posted by birdherder at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Now, let us discuss the Élites. There are two kinds of folks: Élites and Regulars. Why people love Sarah Palin is, she is a Regular. That is also why they love me. She did not go to some Élite Ivy League college, which I also did not. Her and me, actually, did not go to the very same Ivy League school. Although she is younger than me, so therefore she didn’t go there slightly earlier than I didn’t go there. But, had I been younger, we possibly could have not graduated in the exact same class. That would have been fun. Sarah Palin is hot. Hot for a politician. Or someone you just see in a store. But, happily, I did not go to college at all, having not finished high school, due to I killed a man. But had I gone to college, trust me, it would not have been some Ivy League Élite-breeding factory but, rather, a community college in danger of losing its accreditation, built right on a fault zone, riddled with asbestos, and also, the crack-addicted professors are all dyslexic."
posted by homunculus at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
From the New Yorker article linked above:
"[What's] the difference between a dead moose with lipstick on and a dead moose without lipstick?
Lipstick.
posted by yeti at 9:24 AM on September 16, 2008
"[What's] the difference between a dead moose with lipstick on and a dead moose without lipstick?
Lipstick.
posted by yeti at 9:24 AM on September 16, 2008
Something is up, with people like Brooks and Cohen turning on McCain. Should be an interesting week.
And also Ross Douthat (from 'Conservatives Turn On McCain-Palin'):
And also Ross Douthat (from 'Conservatives Turn On McCain-Palin'):
"Now that we've seen the entirety of the Palin-Gibson tete-a-tete, I concur with Rich Lowry and Rod Dreher. The most that can be said in her defense is that she kept her cool and avoided any brutal gaffes; other than that, she seemed about an inch deep on every issue outside her comfort zone. Yes, the questions were tougher than the ones that a Tim Kaine or Tim Pawlenty probably would have been handed, but they were all questions that a vice-presidential nominee needs to be able to answer. And there's no way to look at her performance as anything save supporting evidence for the non-hysterical critique of her candidacy - that it's just too much, too soon - and a splash of cold water for those of us with high hopes for her future on the national stage."posted by ericb at 9:26 AM on September 16, 2008
Maybe you guys will convince Konoila she's wrong, and do it fewer than 2000 comments. Good luck!
You're right. After all, convincing konolia that she's wrong is about as likely as convincing you that people might have reasons for debating her other than changing her mind.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:35 AM on September 16, 2008
You're right. After all, convincing konolia that she's wrong is about as likely as convincing you that people might have reasons for debating her other than changing her mind.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:35 AM on September 16, 2008
Dirty radio pinkos Fresh Air compare and contrast the candidates' health care proposals.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:40 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:40 AM on September 16, 2008
Hey, did you hear that McCain invented the BlackBerry?
...former FCC Chairman Reed Hundt...: 'John McCain is so out of touch that his economics adviser thinks he deserves credit for creating a Canadian company.'"* posted by ericb at 9:44 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
"Asked what work John McCain did as Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee that helped him understand the financial markets, the candidate's top economic adviser wielded visual evidence: his BlackBerry.Isn't Research in Motion, the maker of the Blackberry, a Canadian company?
'He did this,' Douglas Holtz-Eakin told reporters this morning, holding up his BlackBerry. 'Telecommunications of the United States is a premier innovation in the past 15 years, comes right through the Commerce committee so you're looking at the miracle John McCain helped create and that's what he did.'
...former FCC Chairman Reed Hundt...: 'John McCain is so out of touch that his economics adviser thinks he deserves credit for creating a Canadian company.'"* posted by ericb at 9:44 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
konolia: What the does this mean?
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
Who are you referring to? And what plans proposed by Ivy league theorists have been instituted in the last 8 years that Americans are sick of?
posted by batou_ at 9:55 AM on September 16, 2008
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
Who are you referring to? And what plans proposed by Ivy league theorists have been instituted in the last 8 years that Americans are sick of?
posted by batou_ at 9:55 AM on September 16, 2008
Right now a lot of people have no idea how much their employer's contribution is. ... Let 'em see how much this stuff really costs and watch how they react if it's an acknowledged part of their pay.
I just happen to have my last pay stub right here in front of me. My employer is forthright enough to have a little box near the bottom which tallies up all the things they pay out of pocket on my behalf -- retirement account, disability insurance, life, health & dental. It's good info to know. Lets me know what I'm really "costing" them to employ me.
For the good of the group, I did a little bit of math to demonstrate how much the McCain health agenda would affect someone like me. This is just my health insurance costs, mind you. I have no idea if his ill-concieved plan would have an effect on other supplemental plans like Dental. At my place of work, the employee contribution toward the health plan is scaled depending on how much your annual salary is - the less paid pay a smaller proportion, and higher paid pay higher. Pay and rate-wise, I'm somewhere in the middle of the range; I contribute about 20% of the cost. Also, we are self-insured, meaning my employer actually has some sort of fund set aside to pay medical claims, but there is a third-party administrator in there somewhere to help coordinate the plan, so I'm sure that's not cheap.
Oh, also, it's not even really great insurance. Thank god I've never gotten very sick (so far).
Total cost of my annual health insurance: $6698.88
Amount of the above figure paid by my employer per year: $5435.76
Which means, under McCain's plan, I would be taxed on $5435.76 as additional income. This is no small amount to me; it represents almost a 10% bump in my taxable income.
But, ho-ho! What's this? I get a $2500 refundable tax credit? Dude. That still leaves me holding the bag to pay income tax on $3000 more "income" than I never had to pay before.
And what about the contribution I make? Right now I'm able to do that pre-tax. Is it safe to assume that would also be a thing of the past under McCain? After all, how could he justify taxing me for the part I don't even pay from my salary, but still giving me the option to pay my portion pre-tax?
Bottom line: we are fuxed if McCain wins.
posted by contessa at 10:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [9 favorites]
I just happen to have my last pay stub right here in front of me. My employer is forthright enough to have a little box near the bottom which tallies up all the things they pay out of pocket on my behalf -- retirement account, disability insurance, life, health & dental. It's good info to know. Lets me know what I'm really "costing" them to employ me.
For the good of the group, I did a little bit of math to demonstrate how much the McCain health agenda would affect someone like me. This is just my health insurance costs, mind you. I have no idea if his ill-concieved plan would have an effect on other supplemental plans like Dental. At my place of work, the employee contribution toward the health plan is scaled depending on how much your annual salary is - the less paid pay a smaller proportion, and higher paid pay higher. Pay and rate-wise, I'm somewhere in the middle of the range; I contribute about 20% of the cost. Also, we are self-insured, meaning my employer actually has some sort of fund set aside to pay medical claims, but there is a third-party administrator in there somewhere to help coordinate the plan, so I'm sure that's not cheap.
Oh, also, it's not even really great insurance. Thank god I've never gotten very sick (so far).
Total cost of my annual health insurance: $6698.88
Amount of the above figure paid by my employer per year: $5435.76
Which means, under McCain's plan, I would be taxed on $5435.76 as additional income. This is no small amount to me; it represents almost a 10% bump in my taxable income.
But, ho-ho! What's this? I get a $2500 refundable tax credit? Dude. That still leaves me holding the bag to pay income tax on $3000 more "income" than I never had to pay before.
And what about the contribution I make? Right now I'm able to do that pre-tax. Is it safe to assume that would also be a thing of the past under McCain? After all, how could he justify taxing me for the part I don't even pay from my salary, but still giving me the option to pay my portion pre-tax?
Bottom line: we are fuxed if McCain wins.
posted by contessa at 10:05 AM on September 16, 2008 [9 favorites]
wielded visual evidence: his BlackBerry
Maybe he got the notes wrong and was supposed to hold up a blackberry. I mean, McCain is pretty old. He could have invented the "bramble raspberry".
posted by quin at 10:06 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maybe he got the notes wrong and was supposed to hold up a blackberry. I mean, McCain is pretty old. He could have invented the "bramble raspberry".
posted by quin at 10:06 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hey, did you hear that McCain invented the BlackBerry?
This idea probably started with part of McCain's response to ScienceDebate2008, "Under my guiding hand, Congress developed a wireless spectrum policy that spurred the rapid rise of mobile phones and Wi-Fi technology..."
You'd think they'd be more careful, considering the great fun the pundits had with a similar statement made by Al Gore.
posted by gruchall at 10:13 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
This idea probably started with part of McCain's response to ScienceDebate2008, "Under my guiding hand, Congress developed a wireless spectrum policy that spurred the rapid rise of mobile phones and Wi-Fi technology..."
You'd think they'd be more careful, considering the great fun the pundits had with a similar statement made by Al Gore.
posted by gruchall at 10:13 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
davar: the biggest problem that pro life people have with Obama: the fact that he voted against a law that sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention
More info on this from FactCheck: "At issue is Obama's opposition to Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection, even if doctors believe it could not survive. . . . It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support." . . . many . . . people – perhaps most – think of "infanticide" as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:18 AM on September 16, 2008
More info on this from FactCheck: "At issue is Obama's opposition to Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection, even if doctors believe it could not survive. . . . It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support." . . . many . . . people – perhaps most – think of "infanticide" as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:18 AM on September 16, 2008
From Ben Smith at Politico:
McCain supporter Carly Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett Packard, seemed to veer off message for a moment on St. Louis's KTRS Radio, when she made the case that Sarah Palin may be qualified to run Amerca -- but certainly not to run her old company.
"Do you think she has the experience to run a major company like Hewlett Packard?" the host asked Fiorina.
"No, I don’t," she replied. "But that’s not what she’s running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:22 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain supporter Carly Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett Packard, seemed to veer off message for a moment on St. Louis's KTRS Radio, when she made the case that Sarah Palin may be qualified to run Amerca -- but certainly not to run her old company.
"Do you think she has the experience to run a major company like Hewlett Packard?" the host asked Fiorina.
"No, I don’t," she replied. "But that’s not what she’s running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:22 AM on September 16, 2008
the biggest problem that pro life people have with Obama: the fact that he voted against a law that sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention. Obama has since nuanced his opinion (he now says that he supports the new federal law that essentially says the same thing), but still, his voting shows he is not just pro-choice, but much more pro choice than most people.
This is a reference to an act passed in the Illinois state legislature with the inflammatory title of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, which included several objectionable provisions that promoted government interference with women who had life-threatening prenancies. Here's a column by Anthony Stevens-Arroyo, a Catholic conservative who voted for Goldwater, that convincingly debunks the infanticide smears being leveled against Obama by anti-abortion extremists. According to Stevens-Arroyo, here's the meat of the issue:
The legislation would have required the state to provide health care to children born alive after an abortion. Now, existing Illinois law already covered all children. But the BAIPA [Born Alive Infant Protection Act] was intended to create a special status for the survivors of abortion – mostly late-term abortion. The BAIPA clarified that these survivors were “children.” If that was all the law intended, I think it should have been passed and Obama’s self-identified faith should have led him to vote for it.
But things are not always as they seem. Although phrased in legalese, there were three additional and problematic provisions. First, the BAIPA would have immediately usurped the rights of the parents without any hearing or legal process. Second, the act would have mandated taxpayer funds be used for the health care as long as the needy child was alive,
administered by still another government bureaucracy. Third, it gave a green light to trial lawyers to sue just about everybody on two legs. Catholic teaching always protects the rights of parents against big government. Moreover, I have enough of my Barry Goldwater vote left in me to be wary of lining the pockets of trial lawyers.
Stevens-Arroyo also said:
If Obama is guilty of infanticide for opposing mandated health care in the relatively few cases of abortion survivors, then isn’t McCain guilty of far worse by denying government mandated health care to 46 million Americans? I reject this logic: McCain’s plan does not amount to genocide of the poor and Obama’s vote is not infanticide. With his characteristic
serenity, Senator Obama refused to descend into the mud of accusations, demands for retraction, etc. That kind of old politics produces tribalistic hatred rather than participatory progress and it's so unChristian!
There's nothing to apologize for about wanting to save parents from having to deal with pro-life extremists who want to force a Terri Schiavo-style intervention on little babies, regardless of the parents' wishes. If you have ever known anyone who has had to deal with a miscarriage or stillbirth in their own family, you should understand.
In other words, it's not about being "extremely pro-choice." It's about being pro-freedom, period.
posted by jonp72 at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2008 [9 favorites]
This is a reference to an act passed in the Illinois state legislature with the inflammatory title of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, which included several objectionable provisions that promoted government interference with women who had life-threatening prenancies. Here's a column by Anthony Stevens-Arroyo, a Catholic conservative who voted for Goldwater, that convincingly debunks the infanticide smears being leveled against Obama by anti-abortion extremists. According to Stevens-Arroyo, here's the meat of the issue:
The legislation would have required the state to provide health care to children born alive after an abortion. Now, existing Illinois law already covered all children. But the BAIPA [Born Alive Infant Protection Act] was intended to create a special status for the survivors of abortion – mostly late-term abortion. The BAIPA clarified that these survivors were “children.” If that was all the law intended, I think it should have been passed and Obama’s self-identified faith should have led him to vote for it.
But things are not always as they seem. Although phrased in legalese, there were three additional and problematic provisions. First, the BAIPA would have immediately usurped the rights of the parents without any hearing or legal process. Second, the act would have mandated taxpayer funds be used for the health care as long as the needy child was alive,
administered by still another government bureaucracy. Third, it gave a green light to trial lawyers to sue just about everybody on two legs. Catholic teaching always protects the rights of parents against big government. Moreover, I have enough of my Barry Goldwater vote left in me to be wary of lining the pockets of trial lawyers.
Stevens-Arroyo also said:
If Obama is guilty of infanticide for opposing mandated health care in the relatively few cases of abortion survivors, then isn’t McCain guilty of far worse by denying government mandated health care to 46 million Americans? I reject this logic: McCain’s plan does not amount to genocide of the poor and Obama’s vote is not infanticide. With his characteristic
serenity, Senator Obama refused to descend into the mud of accusations, demands for retraction, etc. That kind of old politics produces tribalistic hatred rather than participatory progress and it's so unChristian!
There's nothing to apologize for about wanting to save parents from having to deal with pro-life extremists who want to force a Terri Schiavo-style intervention on little babies, regardless of the parents' wishes. If you have ever known anyone who has had to deal with a miscarriage or stillbirth in their own family, you should understand.
In other words, it's not about being "extremely pro-choice." It's about being pro-freedom, period.
posted by jonp72 at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2008 [9 favorites]
But you see, these wonderful awesome Democrats of yours? The ones you all think are going to usher in a Brand New Day? They don't believe that human life is worthy of protection in all its stages.
neither do the republicans - and that goes for the abortion issue - they cry and cry about the poor dead babies and you people lap it up and then when they get elected they sit on their asses and do nothing about it - or just enough to be credible, and no more
john mccain is not really pro-life - he's pro-talk-about-being-pro-life-to-get-elected - and you're falling for it
palin, of course, probably is sincere
we already know bush wasn't
posted by pyramid termite at 10:45 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
neither do the republicans - and that goes for the abortion issue - they cry and cry about the poor dead babies and you people lap it up and then when they get elected they sit on their asses and do nothing about it - or just enough to be credible, and no more
john mccain is not really pro-life - he's pro-talk-about-being-pro-life-to-get-elected - and you're falling for it
palin, of course, probably is sincere
we already know bush wasn't
posted by pyramid termite at 10:45 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Good editorial: The Ugly New McCain
After all, convincing konolia that she's wrong is about as likely as convincing you that people might have reasons for debating her other than changing her mind.
I'm sorry. I guess I define debate differently than you. Please, continue talking past each other.
posted by chunking express at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2008
After all, convincing konolia that she's wrong is about as likely as convincing you that people might have reasons for debating her other than changing her mind.
I'm sorry. I guess I define debate differently than you. Please, continue talking past each other.
posted by chunking express at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2008
Well, shock of shocks! A 527 group focusing on the "infanticide" smear, Born Alive Truth, has popped up and is already filling the airwaves in Ohio and New Mexico with misleading attack ads.
And the Obama campaign's response:
"The recent attacks on Senator Obama that allege he would allow babies born alive to die are outrageous lies. The suggestion that Obama -- the proud father of two little girls -- and others who opposed these bills supported infanticide is deeply offensive and insulting. There is no room for these kinds of distortions and lies in this campaign.
What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions.
They will not tell you that Obama voted against these laws in Illinois because they were clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade.
They will not tell you that these laws were also opposed by pro-choice Republicans and the Illinois Medical Society -- a leading association of doctors in the state.
And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat.
The bills Senator Obama voted against in Illinois were crafted to undermine Roe v. Wade or pre-existing Illinois state law regulating reproductive healthcare and medical practice, which is why Senator Obama objected to them."
posted by Rhaomi at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
And the Obama campaign's response:
"The recent attacks on Senator Obama that allege he would allow babies born alive to die are outrageous lies. The suggestion that Obama -- the proud father of two little girls -- and others who opposed these bills supported infanticide is deeply offensive and insulting. There is no room for these kinds of distortions and lies in this campaign.
What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions.
They will not tell you that Obama voted against these laws in Illinois because they were clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade.
They will not tell you that these laws were also opposed by pro-choice Republicans and the Illinois Medical Society -- a leading association of doctors in the state.
And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat.
The bills Senator Obama voted against in Illinois were crafted to undermine Roe v. Wade or pre-existing Illinois state law regulating reproductive healthcare and medical practice, which is why Senator Obama objected to them."
posted by Rhaomi at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hey, did you hear that McCain invented the BlackBerry?
You'd think they'd be more careful, considering the great fun the pundits had with a similar statement made by Al Gore.
The pundits weren't clever enough to come up with "Al Gore invented the Internet" all by themselves. The meme developed out of Republican National Committee press releases. It only dissipated through the media, because lazy TV pundits needed to fill airtime and lazy print journalists needed to fill the "news hole."
posted by jonp72 at 10:49 AM on September 16, 2008
You'd think they'd be more careful, considering the great fun the pundits had with a similar statement made by Al Gore.
The pundits weren't clever enough to come up with "Al Gore invented the Internet" all by themselves. The meme developed out of Republican National Committee press releases. It only dissipated through the media, because lazy TV pundits needed to fill airtime and lazy print journalists needed to fill the "news hole."
posted by jonp72 at 10:49 AM on September 16, 2008
Rich. When asked, Palin proponent Carly Fiorina said she doesn't think Palin is experienced enough to run a major company.
I guess the country isn't as important as a company.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
I guess the country isn't as important as a company.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, what Fiorina actually said was that Palin wasn't experienced enough to run her former company, HP. And she should know, given what a bang-up job she did herself.
posted by neroli at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by neroli at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
To be fair I tend to agree that running a company requires a different set of competencies and skills than running a country and that being able to run one does not automatically qualify someone to do the other. Sure there's a lot of overlap, but there are significant differences too.
It would have been more interesting if Fiorina went into detail about what specific qualities Palin lacks to run a major company. My guess is though that this would have exposed qualities that are also necessary to run a country.
posted by like_neon at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2008
It would have been more interesting if Fiorina went into detail about what specific qualities Palin lacks to run a major company. My guess is though that this would have exposed qualities that are also necessary to run a country.
posted by like_neon at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2008
America is sick of Ivy League theorists spinning their vast and glorious plans by way of the fawning media machine.
Oh, it is to laugh. Let's look at this.
I'm getting a little worrn out on hearing the Ivy League implicated as shorthand for the liberal boogeyman. Firstly, I'm not sure how many people even know what the Ivy League is - it's an athletic conference, made up of only eight schools: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, University of Pennsylvania, and Yale. The linked article does an excellent job of how we ended up lumping them together - they are the oldest schools in America, they generally have Prtestant origins, they have been playing one another in sports for hundreds of years (though the conference was only formalized in the 50s), they are all academically selective, they are all well endowed and wealthy, and they are all in the East. Historically, West Point and the Naval Academy have been lumped in with the Ivies, sharing many of their characteristics. Also equivalent to them in many respects are other highly selective private colleges: Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, MIT, University of Chicago, Notre Dame, Stanford, Georgetown, Washington & Lee, etc.
If you think of Ivy League as "educated at an elite, selective, moneyed, private institution of higher learning," then it certainly takes in a large swath of our public servants, most of whom find that an advanced degree is necessary to gain the education and make the connections that will allow them to get and understand policy jobs.
But even if you think the eight colleges in the Ivy League themeselves are poisoning the public with softheaded, communist ideas, and that you need to rid government of their graduates and their thinking, you're still not going to be able to vote Republican. Both the Bush Administration and the McCain campaign are lousy with the graduates of these supposed hotbeds of unAmericanism. I've been having a little look around and have compiled this list of Ivy League graduates, and other graduates of elite non-public institutions, in the Administration and the campaign. It looks as though both Bush and McCain rely upon the kind of thorough, world-class scholarship this institutions provide - McCain, in particular, is drawing upon the knowledge of a great many advisors currently in the academy in these very institutions.
I wonder what it's like when they get together for roundtables? When they compare college rings and ties, and discuss who was in what honor society and who had who for constitutional law, laughing about old times on the ol' campus, and then watch their candidates malign "Ivy Leaguers" and "elitists?" to the public? I guess they laugh it off. They believe they know better than the rest of us, after all, and if takes misreprenting yourself and your advisory teams, letting the public think you're a lot less well-off and well-educated and well-connected than you are, then so be it. At the Faculty Club victory party it'll all be behind you. All's fair in politics, right?
So here's a list. Please note that this is just a sampling. I stopped not because I ran out of Ivy and other elite graduates to look up; I stopped because I got tired and there was no end in sight. I think this is enough to make my general point.
Ivy League Graduates in the Bush Administration
Dick Cheney, VP: Yale (dropped out)
Michael Mukasey, Attorney General: Columbia and Yale Law (editor of Yale Law Journal)
Elaine Chao, Labor Secretary: Harvard Business School, Mt Holyoke, Dartmouth, MIT, and Columbia
Samuel Bodman, Energy Secretary: Cornell, MIT
Mary Peters, Transportation Secretary: Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
Henry Paulsen, Treasury Secretary: Harvard MBA, Dartmouth
Robert Gates, Defense Secretary: William and Mary, Georgetown
Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security: Harvard and Harvard Law
James Peake, Veterans Affairs: West Point and Cornell
Josh Bolton, Chief of Staff: Princeton, Stanford, taught at Yale Law
Bush Administration Graduates from Other Elite Private Institutions
Condolleeza Rice: Notre Dame
Steve Preston, HUD: University of Chicago and Northwestern
Susan Schwab, US Ambassador and Trade Rep: Williams, Stanford, George Washington
Steve Johnson, EPA Head: George Washington
Ivy League Graduates on McCain's Campaign Staff
John Huntsman, Campaign Co-Chair: University of Pennsyvania
Tom Ridge, Campaign Co-Chair, Harvard
Frederick Smith, Campaign Co-Chair, Yale
Fred Malek, Finance Director, National Leadership Team: Harvard
Gerald Parsky, Bush Team: Princeton
Kevin Hassett, policy adviser: University of Pennsylvanie
Douglas Holtz-Eakin, policy adviser: Princeton, teaches at Princeton and Columbia
John Thain, policy adviser: MIT, Harvard Business School
Max Boot, foreign policy adviser: Yale
Niall Ferguson, foreign policy adviser: Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, teaches at Harvard
Alexander Haig, foreign policy adviser: Columbia, Georgetown
Robert Kagan, foreign policy adviser: Yale, Kennedy school at Harvard
Bill Kristol, foreign policy adviser: Harvard
James R. Schlesinger, foreign policy adviser: Harvard
George Schultz, foreign policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
R. James Woolsey, foreign policy adviser: Stanford, Yale
Jeff R. Brown, economic policy adviser: Harvard, MIT
Steve Davis, economic policy adviser: Brown, has taught at MIT and Stanford
Melissa Kearney, economic policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
Adam Lerrick, economic policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
Ken Rogoff, economic policy adviser: Yale, MIT, has taught at Princeton and Harvard
[I lleft out a long list of graduates of West Point and the Naval Academy]
Graduates of Other Elite Institutions on McCain's Campaign Staff
Charlie Condon, Campaign Co-Chair: Duke, Notre Dame
Robert Mosbacher, Chairman, National Leadership Team: Washington & Lee
Phil Levy, economic policy adviser: Stanford, Michigan
Luke Froeb, economic policy adviser: Stanford
Carly Fiorina, "Inner Circle": Stanford, MIT
Ron Weiser, Bush team: University of Michigan
Nicole Devenish Wallace, Bush team: Northwestern
Lisa Graham Keegan, policy adviser: Stanford
Bernard Aronson, foreign policy adviser: University of Chicago
Stephen Biegun, foreign policy adviser: University of Michigan
Lorne Craner, foreign policy adviser: Georgetown
Gary Schmit, foreign policy adviser: University of Chicago
Michael Green, foreign policy adviser: Johns Hopkins, MIT
Carlos Bonilla, economic policy adviser; American, Georgetown
...do you think it's just possible we might be able to agree tht there is a use for people with what is likely the world's best education - world-class, elite, demanding, thorough higher education - especially at the advanced degree level - in both political parties, when they're asking to do something as important as leading the government of the world's most powerful nation?
posted by Miko at 11:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [58 favorites]
Oh, it is to laugh. Let's look at this.
I'm getting a little worrn out on hearing the Ivy League implicated as shorthand for the liberal boogeyman. Firstly, I'm not sure how many people even know what the Ivy League is - it's an athletic conference, made up of only eight schools: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, University of Pennsylvania, and Yale. The linked article does an excellent job of how we ended up lumping them together - they are the oldest schools in America, they generally have Prtestant origins, they have been playing one another in sports for hundreds of years (though the conference was only formalized in the 50s), they are all academically selective, they are all well endowed and wealthy, and they are all in the East. Historically, West Point and the Naval Academy have been lumped in with the Ivies, sharing many of their characteristics. Also equivalent to them in many respects are other highly selective private colleges: Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, MIT, University of Chicago, Notre Dame, Stanford, Georgetown, Washington & Lee, etc.
If you think of Ivy League as "educated at an elite, selective, moneyed, private institution of higher learning," then it certainly takes in a large swath of our public servants, most of whom find that an advanced degree is necessary to gain the education and make the connections that will allow them to get and understand policy jobs.
But even if you think the eight colleges in the Ivy League themeselves are poisoning the public with softheaded, communist ideas, and that you need to rid government of their graduates and their thinking, you're still not going to be able to vote Republican. Both the Bush Administration and the McCain campaign are lousy with the graduates of these supposed hotbeds of unAmericanism. I've been having a little look around and have compiled this list of Ivy League graduates, and other graduates of elite non-public institutions, in the Administration and the campaign. It looks as though both Bush and McCain rely upon the kind of thorough, world-class scholarship this institutions provide - McCain, in particular, is drawing upon the knowledge of a great many advisors currently in the academy in these very institutions.
I wonder what it's like when they get together for roundtables? When they compare college rings and ties, and discuss who was in what honor society and who had who for constitutional law, laughing about old times on the ol' campus, and then watch their candidates malign "Ivy Leaguers" and "elitists?" to the public? I guess they laugh it off. They believe they know better than the rest of us, after all, and if takes misreprenting yourself and your advisory teams, letting the public think you're a lot less well-off and well-educated and well-connected than you are, then so be it. At the Faculty Club victory party it'll all be behind you. All's fair in politics, right?
So here's a list. Please note that this is just a sampling. I stopped not because I ran out of Ivy and other elite graduates to look up; I stopped because I got tired and there was no end in sight. I think this is enough to make my general point.
Ivy League Graduates in the Bush Administration
Dick Cheney, VP: Yale (dropped out)
Michael Mukasey, Attorney General: Columbia and Yale Law (editor of Yale Law Journal)
Elaine Chao, Labor Secretary: Harvard Business School, Mt Holyoke, Dartmouth, MIT, and Columbia
Samuel Bodman, Energy Secretary: Cornell, MIT
Mary Peters, Transportation Secretary: Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
Henry Paulsen, Treasury Secretary: Harvard MBA, Dartmouth
Robert Gates, Defense Secretary: William and Mary, Georgetown
Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security: Harvard and Harvard Law
James Peake, Veterans Affairs: West Point and Cornell
Josh Bolton, Chief of Staff: Princeton, Stanford, taught at Yale Law
Bush Administration Graduates from Other Elite Private Institutions
Condolleeza Rice: Notre Dame
Steve Preston, HUD: University of Chicago and Northwestern
Susan Schwab, US Ambassador and Trade Rep: Williams, Stanford, George Washington
Steve Johnson, EPA Head: George Washington
Ivy League Graduates on McCain's Campaign Staff
John Huntsman, Campaign Co-Chair: University of Pennsyvania
Tom Ridge, Campaign Co-Chair, Harvard
Frederick Smith, Campaign Co-Chair, Yale
Fred Malek, Finance Director, National Leadership Team: Harvard
Gerald Parsky, Bush Team: Princeton
Kevin Hassett, policy adviser: University of Pennsylvanie
Douglas Holtz-Eakin, policy adviser: Princeton, teaches at Princeton and Columbia
John Thain, policy adviser: MIT, Harvard Business School
Max Boot, foreign policy adviser: Yale
Niall Ferguson, foreign policy adviser: Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, teaches at Harvard
Alexander Haig, foreign policy adviser: Columbia, Georgetown
Robert Kagan, foreign policy adviser: Yale, Kennedy school at Harvard
Bill Kristol, foreign policy adviser: Harvard
James R. Schlesinger, foreign policy adviser: Harvard
George Schultz, foreign policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
R. James Woolsey, foreign policy adviser: Stanford, Yale
Jeff R. Brown, economic policy adviser: Harvard, MIT
Steve Davis, economic policy adviser: Brown, has taught at MIT and Stanford
Melissa Kearney, economic policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
Adam Lerrick, economic policy adviser: Princeton, MIT
Ken Rogoff, economic policy adviser: Yale, MIT, has taught at Princeton and Harvard
[I lleft out a long list of graduates of West Point and the Naval Academy]
Graduates of Other Elite Institutions on McCain's Campaign Staff
Charlie Condon, Campaign Co-Chair: Duke, Notre Dame
Robert Mosbacher, Chairman, National Leadership Team: Washington & Lee
Phil Levy, economic policy adviser: Stanford, Michigan
Luke Froeb, economic policy adviser: Stanford
Carly Fiorina, "Inner Circle": Stanford, MIT
Ron Weiser, Bush team: University of Michigan
Nicole Devenish Wallace, Bush team: Northwestern
Lisa Graham Keegan, policy adviser: Stanford
Bernard Aronson, foreign policy adviser: University of Chicago
Stephen Biegun, foreign policy adviser: University of Michigan
Lorne Craner, foreign policy adviser: Georgetown
Gary Schmit, foreign policy adviser: University of Chicago
Michael Green, foreign policy adviser: Johns Hopkins, MIT
Carlos Bonilla, economic policy adviser; American, Georgetown
...do you think it's just possible we might be able to agree tht there is a use for people with what is likely the world's best education - world-class, elite, demanding, thorough higher education - especially at the advanced degree level - in both political parties, when they're asking to do something as important as leading the government of the world's most powerful nation?
posted by Miko at 11:02 AM on September 16, 2008 [58 favorites]
But there is *some* obligation to be truthful and fair, and you have tossed that obligation overboard.
McCain needs to hear that.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:07 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain needs to hear that.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:07 AM on September 16, 2008
I *heart* Miko and her ninja research skills.
Wanna know what would be an even better list? All the staffers, hires and appointees under Bush who are alumni of barely credible, non-elite, non-ivory-tower institutions such as Bob Jones University, Liberty University, or Regent University.
I wonder how many of them will be sticking around to work for McCain/Palin?
posted by contessa at 11:13 AM on September 16, 2008
Wanna know what would be an even better list? All the staffers, hires and appointees under Bush who are alumni of barely credible, non-elite, non-ivory-tower institutions such as Bob Jones University, Liberty University, or Regent University.
I wonder how many of them will be sticking around to work for McCain/Palin?
posted by contessa at 11:13 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain Gets Testy On Morning Joe -- Watch it.
posted by ericb at 11:15 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 11:15 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
"McCain openly sparred with ['Morning Joe' co-host Mika] Brzezinski, whom he accused of being an open supporter of Obama. Asked by the host to assess whether an ad attacking him on the economy was out of bounds, McCain replied: 'I'll leave that for the American people to decide. I still say to you, and I know you are a supporter of Senator Obama, if you would urge him to come and do town all meetings with me as I have asked him to do time after time the whole tenor of the campaign would change.'I think we are starting to see McCain's (in)famous temper showing through, especially now that he is being called out for his lying and dishonorable campaign style.
The charge created an awkward and tense environment for the rest of the segment, with Brzezinski forced to note (as she has done in the past) that one of her brothers works for the McCain campaign (another brother works for Obama, and her father was once an adviser).
'Senator,' she said, 'as a characterized Barack Obama supporter, I take objection. I'Il just say, take care of my brother working at the campaign.'
'Thanks,' replied McCain, 'that was a cheap shot.'
But the issue clearly hung over the rest of the morning. Later in the show, Brzezinski addressed it once again.
'In light of the John McCain interview, I feel I need to say not only does my brother work for the McCain campaign, but he worked for George Bush for six years,' she said. 'I'm proud of him.'
Meanwhile, Republican strategist and former McCain aide Mike Murphy was left to explain away the Senator's humor, albeit adding that he thought the campaign's antagonism to the media had crossed a line.
'I don't think he meant it as an attack,' he said. 'There's definitely become a mentality inside the McCain campaign which is very hostile for anybody in the media they think is at all favorable to the other side. I think that's mistake. I think they overreact. I think doesn't do McCain well to have that mentality in the campaign. I don't really understand it because it's not his natural way.'"
posted by ericb at 11:21 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Miko, your amazing list needs to go viral.
Anybody want to register ivyleagueelitists.com and put it up there?
posted by neroli at 11:27 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anybody want to register ivyleagueelitists.com and put it up there?
posted by neroli at 11:27 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
the fact that he voted against a law that sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention. Obama has since nuanced his opinion (he now says that he supports the new federal law that essentially says the same thing), but still, his voting shows he is not just pro-choice, but much more pro choice than most people. The reasoning he gives ("it is such a burden to the doctors who have to care for the children that are born alive after an abortion attempt") also does not sound very compassionate. I truly support Obama, and I consider myself pro-choice but I vehemently disagree with him on this.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Babies cannot be aborted past the time of viability, which means any "baby" which would be "born" during a botched abortion attempt would be un-viable, and have no chance to live no matter what kind of "medical care" it got.
A late term abortion, which remember we're still talking about fetuses who could not survive outside of the woomb, involves crushing the skull (as pro-lifers remind us all the time) and then cutting up the fetus. What kind of "medical attention" should be required if somehow the heart was still beating in that situation!? First of all, I can't imagine it being "alive" in the first place and I also can't imagine anything could be done to help it.
So why on earth should a law mandate that you should? It's obviously a bogus law designed specifically to screw with pro-choicers. And furthermore, I think this is the law that obama voted "present" on, and got dinged by Hillary as bing pro-life during the primary. His pro-life opponents call him pro choice on the basis of this vote, and his pro-choice opponents call him pro-life based on the same vote.
A vote that was complete nonsense to begin with.
(now, reading the rest of the thread, there is apparently already a law in place in Illinois that would require treatment. But how often does that actually happen, where a baby is "born alive" during an abortion attempt?)
posted by delmoi at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2008
That doesn't make any sense at all. Babies cannot be aborted past the time of viability, which means any "baby" which would be "born" during a botched abortion attempt would be un-viable, and have no chance to live no matter what kind of "medical care" it got.
A late term abortion, which remember we're still talking about fetuses who could not survive outside of the woomb, involves crushing the skull (as pro-lifers remind us all the time) and then cutting up the fetus. What kind of "medical attention" should be required if somehow the heart was still beating in that situation!? First of all, I can't imagine it being "alive" in the first place and I also can't imagine anything could be done to help it.
So why on earth should a law mandate that you should? It's obviously a bogus law designed specifically to screw with pro-choicers. And furthermore, I think this is the law that obama voted "present" on, and got dinged by Hillary as bing pro-life during the primary. His pro-life opponents call him pro choice on the basis of this vote, and his pro-choice opponents call him pro-life based on the same vote.
A vote that was complete nonsense to begin with.
(now, reading the rest of the thread, there is apparently already a law in place in Illinois that would require treatment. But how often does that actually happen, where a baby is "born alive" during an abortion attempt?)
posted by delmoi at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2008
if you would urge him to come and do town all meetings with me as I have asked him to do time after time the whole tenor of the campaign would change.
Is that some sort of weird threat? Is he actually saying that the nasty "tenor" of his campaign is because Obama isn't wasting money on a completely impractical activity a month before the elections? Seriously??
posted by like_neon at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2008
Is that some sort of weird threat? Is he actually saying that the nasty "tenor" of his campaign is because Obama isn't wasting money on a completely impractical activity a month before the elections? Seriously??
posted by like_neon at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2008
This Week in Blackness #4 - about The OBAMA WAFFLES
posted by homunculus at 11:37 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 11:37 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
'Senator,' she said, 'as a characterized Barack Obama supporter, I take objection. I'Il just say, take care of my brother working at the campaign.'
'Thanks,' replied McCain, 'that was a cheap shot.'
But the issue clearly hung over the rest of the morning. Later in the show, Brzezinski addressed it once again.
Her father is an Obama supporter though.
posted by delmoi at 11:40 AM on September 16, 2008
'Thanks,' replied McCain, 'that was a cheap shot.'
But the issue clearly hung over the rest of the morning. Later in the show, Brzezinski addressed it once again.
Her father is an Obama supporter though.
posted by delmoi at 11:40 AM on September 16, 2008
Dems sue to block Michigan GOP from barring voters who lost homes
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on September 16, 2008
McCain is a wimp (politically) and can't take the attacks, it seems. If the Obama campaign wants to win, they'll find a couple of soft spots and just attack them over and over again until someone cracks.
posted by cell divide at 11:42 AM on September 16, 2008
posted by cell divide at 11:42 AM on September 16, 2008
Humorous Palin Venn Diagram
But... but... it doesn't all join up in the middle! Scarface is just a random blob!
posted by Artw at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2008
But... but... it doesn't all join up in the middle! Scarface is just a random blob!
posted by Artw at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2008
And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat.
This is not true. On all the pro-life blogs I read, people do know that Obama said he would have voted for the federal version (I said the same thing in my comment) but they maintain that this federal version was virtually the same as the Illinois version that he did oppose.
What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions.
So, what was the purpose of the new law and why did Obama vote against it, and said that it was such a burden for the doctors? I know that he feared it would undermine Roe v Wade, but still, even NARAL said that it did not oppose this bill. Are NARAL pro-life extremists now? If there already was this law, why did the nurse in the hospital (Jill Stanek) discover that those babies were left to die in a utility room or thrown in the trash? (I know that the article I link to is inflammatory, but the nurse did testify and I have no reason to doubt that she is speaking the truth about what she found).
If Obama is guilty of infanticide for opposing mandated health care in the relatively few cases of abortion survivors, then isn’t McCain guilty of far worse by denying government mandated health care to 46 million Americans?
Well, yes, he is. So? This is not about McCain. This would mean that you could justify everything Obama does and says, because McCain always comes out worse in the end. I support Obama, but I think he is wrong on the topic of late term abortion. I don't know why that makes me a pro-life extremist or an Obama attacker. Surely many of you also disagree with some parts of his policy?
A late term abortion, which remember we're still talking about fetuses who could not survive outside of the woomb, involves crushing the skull
We're not talking about fetusus who cannot survive outside of the womb. These are very late term abortions. Apparently, they don't always crush the skull in those abortions, since there is a form of abortion called "life birth abortion".
posted by davar at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2008
This is not true. On all the pro-life blogs I read, people do know that Obama said he would have voted for the federal version (I said the same thing in my comment) but they maintain that this federal version was virtually the same as the Illinois version that he did oppose.
What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions.
So, what was the purpose of the new law and why did Obama vote against it, and said that it was such a burden for the doctors? I know that he feared it would undermine Roe v Wade, but still, even NARAL said that it did not oppose this bill. Are NARAL pro-life extremists now? If there already was this law, why did the nurse in the hospital (Jill Stanek) discover that those babies were left to die in a utility room or thrown in the trash? (I know that the article I link to is inflammatory, but the nurse did testify and I have no reason to doubt that she is speaking the truth about what she found).
If Obama is guilty of infanticide for opposing mandated health care in the relatively few cases of abortion survivors, then isn’t McCain guilty of far worse by denying government mandated health care to 46 million Americans?
Well, yes, he is. So? This is not about McCain. This would mean that you could justify everything Obama does and says, because McCain always comes out worse in the end. I support Obama, but I think he is wrong on the topic of late term abortion. I don't know why that makes me a pro-life extremist or an Obama attacker. Surely many of you also disagree with some parts of his policy?
A late term abortion, which remember we're still talking about fetuses who could not survive outside of the woomb, involves crushing the skull
We're not talking about fetusus who cannot survive outside of the womb. These are very late term abortions. Apparently, they don't always crush the skull in those abortions, since there is a form of abortion called "life birth abortion".
posted by davar at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2008
Fiorina clarifies: ‘I don’t think John McCain could run a major corporation.’
"Earlier today, McCain spokeswoman Carly Fiorina told a St. Louis radio program that Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) was not qualified to run a business. This afternoon, she reiterated her comments on MSNBC [video | 00:47], this time clarifying that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) — or any other presidential candidate — couldn’t run a major corporation either.posted by ericb at 11:57 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
...Similarly, this morning campaign spokesman Douglas Holtz-Eakin seemed to suggest that McCain’s understanding of the economy was not important, since he’s 'not running to be treasury secretary.'
Obama campaign spokesman Tommy Vietor responded: 'If John McCain’s top economic advisor doesn’t think he can run a corporation, how on Earth can he run the largest economy in the world in the midst of a financial crisis? Apparently even the people who run his campaign agree that the economy is an issue John McCain doesn’t understand as well as he should.'"
Apparently, they don't always crush the skull in those abortions, since there is a form of abortion called "life birth abortion".
No there isn't. Leaving babies to die is a crime in and of itself. The language used in many of these "partial birth abortion" discussions is not the language of doctors, it's the language of people who want to control doctors. World Net Daily is not a reliable news source. The baby Jill Stanek is highlighting on her blog claiming it was "born alive" post-abortion was from 1977.
posted by jessamyn at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2008 [8 favorites]
No there isn't. Leaving babies to die is a crime in and of itself. The language used in many of these "partial birth abortion" discussions is not the language of doctors, it's the language of people who want to control doctors. World Net Daily is not a reliable news source. The baby Jill Stanek is highlighting on her blog claiming it was "born alive" post-abortion was from 1977.
posted by jessamyn at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2008 [8 favorites]
On all the pro-life blogs I read
Clarification: I don't read any pro-life blogs. I meant: blogs from religious people who are pro-life and mention the topic sometimes.
posted by davar at 12:19 PM on September 16, 2008
Clarification: I don't read any pro-life blogs. I meant: blogs from religious people who are pro-life and mention the topic sometimes.
posted by davar at 12:19 PM on September 16, 2008
On her blog, Jill says: In 1999, I discovered babies were being aborted alive at Christ Hospital. I testified before a Congressional committee in 2000 and 2001. I was fired in 2001. Obama opposed IL's Born Alive Infant Protection Act in 2001, 2002, and 2003.
posted by davar at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by davar at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2008
On all the pro-life blogs I read, people do know that Obama said he would have voted for the federal version (I said the same thing in my comment) but they maintain that this federal version was virtually the same as the Illinois version that he did oppose.
Federal abortion laws and state abortion laws are inherently different, even if their wording is exactly the same, because the Supreme Court, our Constitution, and our federal system of government gives the states more latitude in regulating abortion than the state government. A state law can be used in a Supreme Court test case much more easily than a federal law, because Supreme Court precedent still gives most of the prerogative to regulate abortion to the states. A state law with the wording of the Illinois anti-abortion act can be used to undermine Roe v. Wade, even though a federal law with the exact same wording would not.
Now, davar, is there anything else you want to say in defense of allowing anti-abortion extremist busybodys to jam feeding tubes down the throats of nonviable infants, despite the parents' wishes?
posted by jonp72 at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Federal abortion laws and state abortion laws are inherently different, even if their wording is exactly the same, because the Supreme Court, our Constitution, and our federal system of government gives the states more latitude in regulating abortion than the state government. A state law can be used in a Supreme Court test case much more easily than a federal law, because Supreme Court precedent still gives most of the prerogative to regulate abortion to the states. A state law with the wording of the Illinois anti-abortion act can be used to undermine Roe v. Wade, even though a federal law with the exact same wording would not.
Now, davar, is there anything else you want to say in defense of allowing anti-abortion extremist busybodys to jam feeding tubes down the throats of nonviable infants, despite the parents' wishes?
posted by jonp72 at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama campaign files suit over “voter-foreclosure” plans
posted by effwerd at 12:42 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by effwerd at 12:42 PM on September 16, 2008
Miko for the slam dunk.
Yes, that needs to go viral. And I don't say that just because I'm a grad of one Ivy and faculty at another (in between there were large public universities in the west for grad school and early career).
One stereotype that is quite pernicious persists here -- that people who vote Republican are primarily working stiffs without fancy educations, and people who vote democratic are monied and educated elites. The majority of people educated at these schools goes on to work in business, especially the financial industries (chuckle, grimace). The alumni donor pools for these universities is quite conservative.
The democrats don't need to win a majority of working-class Americans. They just need to win a slightly bigger majority than they have in recent elections. The populist/evangelical appeal is directed at the *margins* of the American lower middle and working-classes, an attempt to peel of a few million by appealing to cultural hotbutton issues, stoking racialized resentments. And I don't think it works this time.
In the long run, people are forced to be pragmatic realists or die resisting it. The question is not if we're turning left and toward the liberal agenda, but whether the big turn happens in this election or waits another 2 or 4 years. McCain and Palin are each historical relics, of slightly different political eras that are connected by the thread of Nixon's Southern Strategy and the Goldwater campaign. Palin will never -- mark my words, never -- be president even if she wins the VP slot this time. It may take another 4 years of GOP malfeasance to run this country fully into the ditch, but my gut tells me most American voters are going to see that's what they get with McFourMoreYears and the Bride of Bushenstein when they're in the booth at the moment of decision.
As for Ivy League bashing, you act like working-class people don't deserve or want a good education. You might be interested to know that a student from a family of what would be solid-middle-class standing (between 40 and 60K/yr depending on school) will pay *nothing* to attend any Ivy League school. If s/he has the grades and the drive, the doors are (at last) pretty wide open.
Of course, there are deeper reasons than tuition why such students are rarer than hen's teeth in the Ivies, and increasingly rarer in the major and elite public universities too.
I remember many years ago, I had dropped out of my Ivy League college to make a go of it as a musician. I fell into a really blue-collar world, and the a brilliant blue collar Irish girl I was then involved with said to me one day "you know, you gave up what I wish for more than anything in the world." She didn't mean it as a compliment, either.
She was working for it, too. She went on to get an Ivy League PhD and is now a very prominent economist for a conservative think tank. Me, I bummed around a while longer before I realized she was right. I went on to focus my life's work on working-class issues and communities (and students).
Mocking the educated, or the pursuit of education at a high level, is a piss poor way to make a positive case for a political ideology. Which is not to say that the "meritocratic" American education system is not a system for reproducing class conflict and divergence, because of course what you mean when you say "Ivy League" is a) rich and b) condescending. And yep, I've known plenty of rich and class-condescending students in my combined 15 years or so in Ivy League institutions. To a one, though, they've been young Republicans. And they aren't anything like a majority.
The funny thing is that Dick Cheney and John McCain are trying to convince people like konolia that they respect her and her community and Barack Obama and the democrats don't. The truth of the matter is that most of the architects of the GOP agenda, most of McCain's advisers, most of the Ivy-educated staffers and policy wonks who work for him, would not spend 10 minutes talking to konolia, or to Sarah Palin sans power. That's why I quoted that Bill Maher routine above.
When someone pretends to like you and your ilk because they want your vote, you should be offended, not honored.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2008 [21 favorites]
Yes, that needs to go viral. And I don't say that just because I'm a grad of one Ivy and faculty at another (in between there were large public universities in the west for grad school and early career).
One stereotype that is quite pernicious persists here -- that people who vote Republican are primarily working stiffs without fancy educations, and people who vote democratic are monied and educated elites. The majority of people educated at these schools goes on to work in business, especially the financial industries (chuckle, grimace). The alumni donor pools for these universities is quite conservative.
The democrats don't need to win a majority of working-class Americans. They just need to win a slightly bigger majority than they have in recent elections. The populist/evangelical appeal is directed at the *margins* of the American lower middle and working-classes, an attempt to peel of a few million by appealing to cultural hotbutton issues, stoking racialized resentments. And I don't think it works this time.
In the long run, people are forced to be pragmatic realists or die resisting it. The question is not if we're turning left and toward the liberal agenda, but whether the big turn happens in this election or waits another 2 or 4 years. McCain and Palin are each historical relics, of slightly different political eras that are connected by the thread of Nixon's Southern Strategy and the Goldwater campaign. Palin will never -- mark my words, never -- be president even if she wins the VP slot this time. It may take another 4 years of GOP malfeasance to run this country fully into the ditch, but my gut tells me most American voters are going to see that's what they get with McFourMoreYears and the Bride of Bushenstein when they're in the booth at the moment of decision.
As for Ivy League bashing, you act like working-class people don't deserve or want a good education. You might be interested to know that a student from a family of what would be solid-middle-class standing (between 40 and 60K/yr depending on school) will pay *nothing* to attend any Ivy League school. If s/he has the grades and the drive, the doors are (at last) pretty wide open.
Of course, there are deeper reasons than tuition why such students are rarer than hen's teeth in the Ivies, and increasingly rarer in the major and elite public universities too.
I remember many years ago, I had dropped out of my Ivy League college to make a go of it as a musician. I fell into a really blue-collar world, and the a brilliant blue collar Irish girl I was then involved with said to me one day "you know, you gave up what I wish for more than anything in the world." She didn't mean it as a compliment, either.
She was working for it, too. She went on to get an Ivy League PhD and is now a very prominent economist for a conservative think tank. Me, I bummed around a while longer before I realized she was right. I went on to focus my life's work on working-class issues and communities (and students).
Mocking the educated, or the pursuit of education at a high level, is a piss poor way to make a positive case for a political ideology. Which is not to say that the "meritocratic" American education system is not a system for reproducing class conflict and divergence, because of course what you mean when you say "Ivy League" is a) rich and b) condescending. And yep, I've known plenty of rich and class-condescending students in my combined 15 years or so in Ivy League institutions. To a one, though, they've been young Republicans. And they aren't anything like a majority.
The funny thing is that Dick Cheney and John McCain are trying to convince people like konolia that they respect her and her community and Barack Obama and the democrats don't. The truth of the matter is that most of the architects of the GOP agenda, most of McCain's advisers, most of the Ivy-educated staffers and policy wonks who work for him, would not spend 10 minutes talking to konolia, or to Sarah Palin sans power. That's why I quoted that Bill Maher routine above.
When someone pretends to like you and your ilk because they want your vote, you should be offended, not honored.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2008 [21 favorites]
(Clarification -- by "you act like working-class people don't deserve a good education," I meant to address konolia's original use of "Ivy League" as an insult)
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2008
You might be interested to know that a student from a family of what would be solid-middle-class standing (between 40 and 60K/yr depending on school) will pay *nothing* to attend any Ivy League school. If s/he has the grades and the drive, the doors are (at last) pretty wide open.
But if you have neither the grades nor the drive, you can still get in anyway...as long as you pay full freight and your last name rhymes with "Smush."
posted by contessa at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
But if you have neither the grades nor the drive, you can still get in anyway...as long as you pay full freight and your last name rhymes with "Smush."
posted by contessa at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
from 1977.
And that's another of the rhetorical tricks used by the right -- focus on some totally marginal, almost non-existent, possible outrage or contingency, and then move it right to the center of the debate. "Partial birth" abortion is an exceedingly rare procedure, used as a last resort in medically severe situations, not as a casual solution to forgetting to take one's birth control pill. People do it when they discover a genetic defect in late pregnancy, or the mother's health is compromised by cancer chemotherapy. But somehow the Illinois legislature needs to take up a bill specifically to deal with a contingency that almost never happens? What kind of insult is that? Who thinks that bill was meant to address any actual situation with a wise and compassionate and pragmatic policy? It was pure political symbolism, which makes it no better than the other lies being told in this election.
And then people act like being in favor of passing totally symbolic laws crafted to stir outrage and make hay for the anti-choice cause is somehow justifiable? Or that how a state legislator votes on such bullshit "legislation" is a moral litmus test? What, so if Obama didn't support this crap law, that means he would like to see more partial birth abortions?
ENOUGH. If you believe that shit, as I said, you're either disingenuous or easily misled because you're stupid. Or both. Can we not pretend we don't see the obvious, when a trick is a trick, a lie a lie, a fact evidence?
Meanwhile, no one gets nearly as worked up at the way thousands of babies -- actual born ones -- and children die in bombing raids, or have their lives stunted by industrial pollution, or live in poverty, and on and on and on. We're all worked up arguing about something on the rare end of almost never, which only happens under conditions that are none of anyone's business but the suffering family and their doctors. They jam the law down the throat of the doctor/patient relationship, stick their science hating fists right into the debate about science policy, and lie by extremely inflammatory and exaggerated turns of phrase.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2008 [8 favorites]
And that's another of the rhetorical tricks used by the right -- focus on some totally marginal, almost non-existent, possible outrage or contingency, and then move it right to the center of the debate. "Partial birth" abortion is an exceedingly rare procedure, used as a last resort in medically severe situations, not as a casual solution to forgetting to take one's birth control pill. People do it when they discover a genetic defect in late pregnancy, or the mother's health is compromised by cancer chemotherapy. But somehow the Illinois legislature needs to take up a bill specifically to deal with a contingency that almost never happens? What kind of insult is that? Who thinks that bill was meant to address any actual situation with a wise and compassionate and pragmatic policy? It was pure political symbolism, which makes it no better than the other lies being told in this election.
And then people act like being in favor of passing totally symbolic laws crafted to stir outrage and make hay for the anti-choice cause is somehow justifiable? Or that how a state legislator votes on such bullshit "legislation" is a moral litmus test? What, so if Obama didn't support this crap law, that means he would like to see more partial birth abortions?
ENOUGH. If you believe that shit, as I said, you're either disingenuous or easily misled because you're stupid. Or both. Can we not pretend we don't see the obvious, when a trick is a trick, a lie a lie, a fact evidence?
Meanwhile, no one gets nearly as worked up at the way thousands of babies -- actual born ones -- and children die in bombing raids, or have their lives stunted by industrial pollution, or live in poverty, and on and on and on. We're all worked up arguing about something on the rare end of almost never, which only happens under conditions that are none of anyone's business but the suffering family and their doctors. They jam the law down the throat of the doctor/patient relationship, stick their science hating fists right into the debate about science policy, and lie by extremely inflammatory and exaggerated turns of phrase.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2008 [8 favorites]
Miko: you may also want to include this Yale B.A./Harvard M.B.A. grad on your list.
posted by hangashore at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by hangashore at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2008
I also want to amend this statement about class-condescending Ivy League students:
"To a one, though, they've been young Republicans."
Actually, on reflection, of course that's not true. I've heard some ignorant condescension toward poor and working people from self-styled liberals and progressives too.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:14 PM on September 16, 2008
"To a one, though, they've been young Republicans."
Actually, on reflection, of course that's not true. I've heard some ignorant condescension toward poor and working people from self-styled liberals and progressives too.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:14 PM on September 16, 2008
Ahmadinejad Wants McCain and Palin in The White House
posted by homunculus at 1:20 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by homunculus at 1:20 PM on September 16, 2008
Evidence surfaces the John McCain did invent the Blackberry.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [7 favorites]
But back to "in what respect charlie". I had a look at Wikipedia, which Charlie K. says credits him with first naming something the "Bush doctrine". Sure enough, that's what it said today when I went to look at it today. Here's the problem: before the Charlie Gibson interview with Sarah Palin, it didn't talk about this "pre-9/11" Bush Doctrine. As you might expect, there was a real storm of edits to this page starting the night before I heard the "in what respect" line on the morning news. After spending way too much time digging around in the wikipedia changes, it looks like the first addition of that text was on September 12, 2008 at about 8:07AM Wikipedia time (see here), though without looking at all the revisions I can't say whether it had surfaced earlier. If Charlie K. wants to use Wikipedia to support the notion that the bush doctrine is a hopelessly muddled term, he should look to wikipedia as it was before this interview, not after. As far as I can see, the last legitimate This seems to be the revision of August 8, 2008.
Now head back to the Gibson interview. After Palin's initial response, he says as a clarification of his question, "the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002 before the Iraq war". If the problem was indeed that she did not understand which of the "four Bush doctrines" she was being asked about, it should be clarified at this point.
After letting her respond again, he says "the Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self defense. We have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us".
Let's compare this with what Wikipedia said on August 8:
So in conclusion, let's get beyond "In what respect, Charlie". Let's concentrate on the part where, after the interviewer has said "Do you agree with the Bush Doctrine, enunciated September 2002 before the Iraq War? The Bush Doctrine, as I understand it, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self defense. We have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us". Listen to the interview again from that point forward, and try to form a new opinion as to whether she's really giving a good answer to Gibson's question, once it's fully stated. I was going to end with my own opinion on that, but I think I'll skip that part and leave it to each of you.
posted by jepler at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
Now head back to the Gibson interview. After Palin's initial response, he says as a clarification of his question, "the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002 before the Iraq war". If the problem was indeed that she did not understand which of the "four Bush doctrines" she was being asked about, it should be clarified at this point.
After letting her respond again, he says "the Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self defense. We have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us".
Let's compare this with what Wikipedia said on August 8:
- The Bush Doctrine is a phrase used to describe various related foreign policy principles of United States president George W. Bush, created in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks.
- Later it came to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate (used to justify the invasion of Iraq).
- In a series of speeches in late 2001 and 2002 President Bush expanded on his view of American foreign policy and global intervention, declaring [...] that the United States had the right to act unilaterally in its own security interests.
- The main elements of the Bush Doctrine were delineated in a National Security Council document, the National Security Strategy of the United States, published on September 20, 2002. This document is often cited as the definitive statement of the doctrine. [...] Out of the National Security Strategy, four main points are highlighted as the core to the Bush Doctrine: Preemption, Military Primacy, New Multilateralism, and the Spread of Democracy.
So in conclusion, let's get beyond "In what respect, Charlie". Let's concentrate on the part where, after the interviewer has said "Do you agree with the Bush Doctrine, enunciated September 2002 before the Iraq War? The Bush Doctrine, as I understand it, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self defense. We have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us". Listen to the interview again from that point forward, and try to form a new opinion as to whether she's really giving a good answer to Gibson's question, once it's fully stated. I was going to end with my own opinion on that, but I think I'll skip that part and leave it to each of you.
posted by jepler at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
if you would urge him to come and do town all meetings with me as I have asked him to do time after time the whole tenor of the campaign would change.
Obama countered McCain's proposal for 10 joint town-hall appearances with an offer of five joint appearances (including the three traditional debates between the presidential candidates), and McCain rejected the counteroffer.
To be fair I tend to agree that running a company requires a different set of competencies and skills than running a country and that being able to run one does not automatically qualify someone to do the other.
In 2000 then-Governor Bush was touted as an MBA PResident that would run the United States like a CEO.
Ivy League Graduates in the Bush Administration
George W. Bush. Yale University, BA History, 1968. Harvard Business School, MBA, 1975.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't believe Governor Palin had any understanding of the phrase "Bush Doctrine" before the interview.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Ahmadinejad Wants McCain and Palin in The White House
Tomorrow's Republican talking point: You see? Even life-long liberals like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are coming to the realization that John McCain is the right man for the job!
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:31 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Tomorrow's Republican talking point: You see? Even life-long liberals like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are coming to the realization that John McCain is the right man for the job!
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:31 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
isten to the interview again from that point forward, and try to form a new opinion as to whether she's really giving a good answer to Gibson's question, once it's fully stated.
and when you're done doing that, listen to Joe Biden on Meet the press a couple of weeks ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0bEzW7v1E
Opinions about the issues and candidates aside, Does Sarah Palin give a "good" answer that shows any sort of depth of understanding of foriegn Policy?
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2008
and when you're done doing that, listen to Joe Biden on Meet the press a couple of weeks ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0bEzW7v1E
Opinions about the issues and candidates aside, Does Sarah Palin give a "good" answer that shows any sort of depth of understanding of foriegn Policy?
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2008
What an enlightened choice: Sarah Palin: Dominionist Stalking Horse Why don't the Democrats shoot this once and for all or is America really a theocracy.? In neither of the two Palin threads has the word dominionism appeared. Is the elephant really behind the curtain?
posted by adamvasco at 1:58 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by adamvasco at 1:58 PM on September 16, 2008
I think we're well aware that she's some kind of wedge issue spooky scarey person.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on September 16, 2008
Even Fox News calls out McCain campaign on lies [video | 04:23].
posted by ericb at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
McCain Described The Economy’s Fundamentals As ‘Strong’ At Least 18 Times In 2008.
posted by ericb at 2:10 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ericb at 2:10 PM on September 16, 2008
Yeah, konolia, Truman sounds like he had the same “unblinking” attitude and confidence in himself (read: blind ambition) as Gov. Palin. From Wikipedia:
Shortly after taking the oath of office, Truman said to reporters:posted by breaks the guidelines? at 2:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
“Boys, if you ever pray, pray for me now. I don't know if you fellas ever had a load of hay fall on you, but when they told me what happened yesterday, I felt like the moon, the stars, and all the planets had fallen on me.”
In what respect are the economys fundamentals strong?
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on September 16, 2008
Yeah, konolia, Truman sounds like he had the same “unblinking” attitude ...
The Daily Show: Sarah Palin Won't Blink [video | 08:35].
posted by ericb at 2:17 PM on September 16, 2008
The Daily Show: Sarah Palin Won't Blink [video | 08:35].
posted by ericb at 2:17 PM on September 16, 2008
I think we're well aware that she's some kind of wedge issue spooky scarey person.
Nah she's just a good ol' fashioned rootin' tootin' hockey mom. Just momin' some hockey all the live long day! When she's not saying "Thanks, but no thanks" for bridges as the talent portion of her administration she's out having babies to play more hockey and ride their snow machines straight to reform the bejeebers out of Washington. Golly gosh! I can see Russia!
Fucking Fuck America!
posted by ND¢ at 2:21 PM on September 16, 2008
Nah she's just a good ol' fashioned rootin' tootin' hockey mom. Just momin' some hockey all the live long day! When she's not saying "Thanks, but no thanks" for bridges as the talent portion of her administration she's out having babies to play more hockey and ride their snow machines straight to reform the bejeebers out of Washington. Golly gosh! I can see Russia!
Fucking Fuck America!
posted by ND¢ at 2:21 PM on September 16, 2008
"Fuck" is not a verb in that last sentence. "Fucking Fuck" is an interjection and then "America" is the subject of the interjection. Like if you had a friend named Bill and he said to you "You know, I rented that movie The Hottie and the Nottie the other day and it was actually pretty funny." and then you said "Fucking Fuck Bill!" because you could not believe that Bill, who is your friend and who you care about, despite the really dumb things he has done in the past, would actually find something that appears so blatantly idiotic and aimed at the lowest common denominator appealing.
posted by ND¢ at 2:34 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ND¢ at 2:34 PM on September 16, 2008
Fucking Fuck America!
Feeling annoyed? Republican insanity got you down? Spate of lies and blatant dishonesty that's even getting called out by Karl Rove and Fox News making you want to slap somebody?
Well we've got just the thing for you. Registering a voter or two! Guaranteed to pick you up. Whether it's meeting an actual real life republican who isn't like a certain someone you know who just dodges questions, or meeting a Democrat or independent who feels like they can't vote for the liars, you'll feel a lot better!
Voter Registration™. In these times where you'll want to yell obscenities at polarized conceptions of people based on one or two question avoiding nonbending superstallers, Voter Registration™ puts you in front of real people, who will likely listen to your informed and well thought out views on why McCain/Palin is a horrible choice.
Act NOW and you'll receive the added benefit of feeling like you made a difference, instead of spending countless hours responding to somebody who is by and large ignoring you.
Try it today!
Offer valid for only the next couple of weeks when the deadline to register voters hits. If you're not an American citizen, you can take all the time you want and argue until kingdom comes. I'm cashman and I approved this message.
posted by cashman at 2:41 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Feeling annoyed? Republican insanity got you down? Spate of lies and blatant dishonesty that's even getting called out by Karl Rove and Fox News making you want to slap somebody?
Well we've got just the thing for you. Registering a voter or two! Guaranteed to pick you up. Whether it's meeting an actual real life republican who isn't like a certain someone you know who just dodges questions, or meeting a Democrat or independent who feels like they can't vote for the liars, you'll feel a lot better!
Voter Registration™. In these times where you'll want to yell obscenities at polarized conceptions of people based on one or two question avoiding nonbending superstallers, Voter Registration™ puts you in front of real people, who will likely listen to your informed and well thought out views on why McCain/Palin is a horrible choice.
Act NOW and you'll receive the added benefit of feeling like you made a difference, instead of spending countless hours responding to somebody who is by and large ignoring you.
Try it today!
Offer valid for only the next couple of weeks when the deadline to register voters hits. If you're not an American citizen, you can take all the time you want and argue until kingdom comes. I'm cashman and I approved this message.
posted by cashman at 2:41 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
You're not saying fuck Bill. Because Bill is your friend. You wouldn't say that about him. You are say "Fuck! Bill. What the fuck man? You just rent terrible movies and sit around in your sad little apartment and watch them by yourself in your pajamas and chuckle when "the nottie" farts on some dude or whatever happens in that terrible movie, but I am sure that is probably what happens? Is that how you want your life to be Bill? There is a whole world out there and you are sitting around eating an entire sleeve of oreos and watching a movie written for Paris Hilton?! Come on Bill! YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS! I believe that you are better than this. I love you Bill. I do. I love you."
posted by ND¢ at 2:44 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ND¢ at 2:44 PM on September 16, 2008
'Fuck' is not a verb in that last sentence. 'Fucking Fuck' is an interjection and then 'America' is the subject of the interjection.
Actually, I think you need a comma (or maybe an exclamation point) after "fuck."
I spell it konolia.
And it's "Democratic Party." Please make a note of it.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:47 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Boy oh boy, Andrew Sullivan keeps bringing it on. From Robert F. Kennedy Jr on HuffingtonPost:
"Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that "some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in pubic premises before the snow flies." It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list," - Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Can you imagine if Obama had quoted, say, Malcolm X in his convention speech? The uproar would still be going on.
Double Standards R* Us.
* "R" for Republican
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
"Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that "some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in pubic premises before the snow flies." It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list," - Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Can you imagine if Obama had quoted, say, Malcolm X in his convention speech? The uproar would still be going on.
Double Standards R* Us.
* "R" for Republican
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
Palin and experience.
If you liked that one, here's some more straight talk from Bret Stephens:
If you liked that one, here's some more straight talk from Bret Stephens:
Last week marked the 20th anniversary of the mass hysteria phenomenon known as global warming. Much of the science has since been discredited. Now it's time for political scientists, theologians and psychiatrists to weigh in.posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:54 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here was the Pegler quote from Palin's convention speech:
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity", she said, a Pegler quote that also appeared in the book "Right From the Beginning" by Pat Buchanan. "
Now, either Palin herself thought to dig for a Pegler quote, or McCain's speechwriting team did. I'd like to know which, and if it's the former, I'd like to know her opinion of Pegler's other documented opinions, not just his opinion that the assassination of a presidential candidate would be fine, but his virulent anti-semitism (so much so that he was *kicked out* of the John Birch Society, probably the only person ever to be so, for being such a blatant anti-semite). President Truman, whom Palin also cited positively, despised Pegler, and vice versa. Pegler was a very bad person, a McCarthyite and a flaming far right nationalist and racist - he makes Limbaugh and Hannity look like Shields and Brooks.
I ask again: if Obama had quoted an obscure Black nationalist radical writer, or a not so obscure one -- if he had invoked Malcolm instead of Martin in Denver -- this race would be so over it would be time to start planning for the super bowl party.
Yet this gun bunny approvingly quotes a near-Nazi writer (someone still beloved by American Nazis) and the only people who call her on it are Thomas Frank and Frank Rich? Tell me again that media is either balanced or has a liberal bias.
What. The. Fuck.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:59 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity", she said, a Pegler quote that also appeared in the book "Right From the Beginning" by Pat Buchanan. "
Now, either Palin herself thought to dig for a Pegler quote, or McCain's speechwriting team did. I'd like to know which, and if it's the former, I'd like to know her opinion of Pegler's other documented opinions, not just his opinion that the assassination of a presidential candidate would be fine, but his virulent anti-semitism (so much so that he was *kicked out* of the John Birch Society, probably the only person ever to be so, for being such a blatant anti-semite). President Truman, whom Palin also cited positively, despised Pegler, and vice versa. Pegler was a very bad person, a McCarthyite and a flaming far right nationalist and racist - he makes Limbaugh and Hannity look like Shields and Brooks.
I ask again: if Obama had quoted an obscure Black nationalist radical writer, or a not so obscure one -- if he had invoked Malcolm instead of Martin in Denver -- this race would be so over it would be time to start planning for the super bowl party.
Yet this gun bunny approvingly quotes a near-Nazi writer (someone still beloved by American Nazis) and the only people who call her on it are Thomas Frank and Frank Rich? Tell me again that media is either balanced or has a liberal bias.
What. The. Fuck.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:59 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
Sorry, the quote and context above come from the Wikipedia article on Westbrook Pegler, which is seeing a fair bit of action at the moment.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2008
Palin and experience.
so, that's the argument? - that she's another calvin coolidge?
phffffft - talk about damning with faint praise
posted by pyramid termite at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2008
so, that's the argument? - that she's another calvin coolidge?
phffffft - talk about damning with faint praise
posted by pyramid termite at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2008
Tell me again that media is either balanced or has a liberal bias.
Hint: it's not the media (moves in very close and starts to whisper), it's America.
posted by cell divide at 3:05 PM on September 16, 2008
Hint: it's not the media (moves in very close and starts to whisper), it's America.
posted by cell divide at 3:05 PM on September 16, 2008
I like umbrage as much as the next guy, but I'm sure Palin has no clue who Pegler is, and I would bet the Bush hack who wrote the speech doesn't know either. Someone saw the line in the Buchanan book, and thought it would be a Maverick-y thing to put it in. That's it. Doesn't prove anybody is a frothing anti-Semite. It's a non-issue.
Would the McCain camp make a big fuss if the situation were reversed? Oh sure, absolutely.
But that's why we don't like them.
posted by neroli at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
Would the McCain camp make a big fuss if the situation were reversed? Oh sure, absolutely.
But that's why we don't like them.
posted by neroli at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]
(Well, I mean Buchanan's an anti-semite...but everybody knew that already.)
posted by neroli at 3:15 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by neroli at 3:15 PM on September 16, 2008
We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity
oh, bullshit - people in small towns are just as dishonest, phony, and buffoonish as anywhere else, and many of them are not good people - they're mean, nosy and prone to judge a person by who his relatives are and what church they go to
and since when is minneapolis a small town? (1890 census - 164,738) - and mr pegler wrote for that small town rag the chicago tribune?
i come from a town that has about 50,000 people - and a school district that had a high school class of less than 100 people - so westbrook can just forget telling me what people in small towns are like
and who the hell names their kid after a shopping mall? did he have siblings named eastpointe and southland?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2008
oh, bullshit - people in small towns are just as dishonest, phony, and buffoonish as anywhere else, and many of them are not good people - they're mean, nosy and prone to judge a person by who his relatives are and what church they go to
and since when is minneapolis a small town? (1890 census - 164,738) - and mr pegler wrote for that small town rag the chicago tribune?
i come from a town that has about 50,000 people - and a school district that had a high school class of less than 100 people - so westbrook can just forget telling me what people in small towns are like
and who the hell names their kid after a shopping mall? did he have siblings named eastpointe and southland?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:18 PM on September 16, 2008
No point in blinking when our eyes are already closed, amirite?
posted by breaks the guidelines? at 3:28 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by breaks the guidelines? at 3:28 PM on September 16, 2008
Well, gee, this isn't partisan at all. GOP lawmakers try to derail Troopergate investigation...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7802801
posted by clever sheep at 3:34 PM on September 16, 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7802801
posted by clever sheep at 3:34 PM on September 16, 2008
McCain doesn’t know what his own committee does.
“With Wall Street’s financial institutions in turmoil, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) argued in a series of interviews today that his experience on the Senate Commerce Committee meant he knew ‘how to fix this economy.’ ‘I understand the economy. I was chairman of the Commerce Committee that oversights every part of our economy,’ McCain told CNBC’s Squawk Box [video].posted by ericb at 3:35 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
But, as the Washington Post points out, the Commerce Committee doesn’t oversee ‘every part of our economy,’ let alone ‘the very areas now in crisis’:‘In fact, it is the Senate Banking Committee that has oversight of “banks, banking and financial institutions; control of prices of commodities, rents and services; federal monetary policy, including the Federal Reserve System; financial aid to commerce and industry and money and credit, including currency and coinage.”It’s not that surprising that McCain is confused about the Commerce Committee’s economic responsibilities, considering that he freely admits, ‘The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.’”
According to its Web site, the Commerce Committee oversees 13 areas, beginning with the Coast Guard, and continuing through “regulation of consumer products and services … except for credit, financial services, and housing” — the very areas now in crisis.’
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"
Like on Twin Peaks.
posted by mazola at 3:38 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Like on Twin Peaks.
posted by mazola at 3:38 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Harry Reid lambast McCain on his statement that the "fundamentals of the economy are strong" [video | 07:38]
posted by ericb at 3:40 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ericb at 3:40 PM on September 16, 2008
McCain backpedals on all the talk shows this morning [video | 04:00].
posted by ericb at 3:43 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 3:43 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Is he now saying that it's the medias fault that he clearly has no clue what "fundamentals of the economy" actually means yet?
posted by Artw at 3:46 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by Artw at 3:46 PM on September 16, 2008
"the fundamentals of our economy are strong"
--John McCain, September 15, 2008
"The fundamental business of the country, that is production and distribution of commodities, is on a sound and prosperous basis." -- Herbert Hoover, October 1929
And a lot of horseshit. Or Miracle-Gro.
That's like Shane MacGowan getting kicked out of The Pogues for drinking too much.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
--John McCain, September 15, 2008
"The fundamental business of the country, that is production and distribution of commodities, is on a sound and prosperous basis." -- Herbert Hoover, October 1929
We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity
And a lot of horseshit. Or Miracle-Gro.
so much so that he was *kicked out* of the John Birch Society, probably the only person ever to be so, for being such a blatant anti-semite
That's like Shane MacGowan getting kicked out of The Pogues for drinking too much.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"
You know what I learned growing up in a small town? That the cops are easy to ditch. This led to my friends and I discovering the value of breaking and entering, trespassing, improvised explosive fabrication, theft, and probably a hundred other things that I won't go on to mention. Small towns are not some bastion of morals and righteousness, there are a lot of judgmental assholes and misanthropic troublemakers, just like you find in cities.
This is a stupid theme, and they should stop using it.
posted by quin at 3:51 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know what I learned growing up in a small town? That the cops are easy to ditch. This led to my friends and I discovering the value of breaking and entering, trespassing, improvised explosive fabrication, theft, and probably a hundred other things that I won't go on to mention. Small towns are not some bastion of morals and righteousness, there are a lot of judgmental assholes and misanthropic troublemakers, just like you find in cities.
This is a stupid theme, and they should stop using it.
posted by quin at 3:51 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Especially since Wasilla, Alaska is the state's meth capital.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:57 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:57 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
I read "small town values" as this election cycle's gay marriage replacement- it's code for bigotry. It's not acceptable to be openly bigoted anymore. Beating the drum about gay marriage was getting stale, so they found a new doublespeak term for it.
posted by ambrosia at 4:03 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ambrosia at 4:03 PM on September 16, 2008
What is it exactly that the VP does? Sing along!
posted by madamjujujive at 4:04 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by madamjujujive at 4:04 PM on September 16, 2008
will spatter his spoonful of brains in pubic premises before the snow flies
Yup, sounds like a Kennedy. Got his head stuck in someone's pubics.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:10 PM on September 16, 2008
Yup, sounds like a Kennedy. Got his head stuck in someone's pubics.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:10 PM on September 16, 2008
Especially since Wasilla, Alaska is the state's meth capital.
This morning Garrison Keillor described Wasilla as a series of intersecting strip malls.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on September 16, 2008
This morning Garrison Keillor described Wasilla as a series of intersecting strip malls.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on September 16, 2008
Wasilla: Come for the Cristal Meth, stay for the Rape.
Small town values!
posted by delmoi at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Small town values!
posted by delmoi at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Come for the Cristal Meth
I can't afford that French shit. I just buy the regular meth.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:26 PM on September 16, 2008 [6 favorites]
I can't afford that French shit. I just buy the regular meth.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:26 PM on September 16, 2008 [6 favorites]
So are you guys saying you're too good to do meth like the rest of us?
Fuck elitists. I bet you've got some sort of Ivy League education...
posted by defenestration at 4:32 PM on September 16, 2008
Fuck elitists. I bet you've got some sort of Ivy League education...
posted by defenestration at 4:32 PM on September 16, 2008
... kits.
posted by jessamyn at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
...the McCain health plan would treat employer-paid health benefits as income that employees would have to pay taxes on...
Journal Disputes McCain’s Health Care Claims
posted by ericb at 4:53 PM on September 16, 2008
Journal Disputes McCain’s Health Care Claims
"Senator John McCain’s top domestic policy adviser, former Congressional Budget Office director Douglas J. Holtz-Eakin, recently said in a conference call with reporters that Mr. McCain’s health care proposal would 'put 25 to 30 million individuals out of the ranks of the uninsured, into the ranks of the insured.' In an article [in the journal Health Affairs] released Tuesday, a panel of prominent health economists concludes that Mr. Holtz-Eakin’s projection is off by, well, 25 to 30 million."..prominent health economists... Pfft. What does a panel of experts -- likely educated at those elite Ivy League institutions -- really know? They just spin facts and figures.
posted by ericb at 4:53 PM on September 16, 2008
...Wasilla, Alaska is the state's meth capital.
Yep.
posted by ericb at 4:56 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yep.
posted by ericb at 4:56 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think we established that Asian people are White, and therefore racist, in the Tim Wise thread. It hasn't been established which Black people are White yet though.
posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on September 16, 2008
By the way, the Tina Fey Palin SNL skit was totally sexist you guys!
posted by ND¢ at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ND¢ at 5:13 PM on September 16, 2008
Oprah, SNL, The View... They're really playing this media victimisation thing to the hilt, aren't they? The big crybabies*.
[* NOT BABBYIST]
posted by Artw at 5:16 PM on September 16, 2008
[* NOT BABBYIST]
posted by Artw at 5:16 PM on September 16, 2008
By the way, the Tina Fey Palin SNL skit was totally sexist you guys!
So says McCain surrogate Carly Fiorina who also said today that neither McCain or Palin have the experience to run a U.S. business.
Countdown begins to see when Fiorina joins Phil Gramm as "former" economic adviser to John McCain. 5...4...3...2...
posted by ericb at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2008
So says McCain surrogate Carly Fiorina who also said today that neither McCain or Palin have the experience to run a U.S. business.
Countdown begins to see when Fiorina joins Phil Gramm as "former" economic adviser to John McCain. 5...4...3...2...
posted by ericb at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2008
Hi, just checking in since it's been like two days and I was kind of hoping konolia had figured out how to explain how Michelle Malkin isn't racist because she's Asian by now.
Don't hold your breath.
posted by ericb at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Don't hold your breath.
posted by ericb at 5:28 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
This may be an inappropriate thing to say, on many levels, but...
...I have a HUGE crush on Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
posted by neroli at 5:36 PM on September 16, 2008
...I have a HUGE crush on Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
posted by neroli at 5:36 PM on September 16, 2008
That Fox News video...
The McCain rep I'm-rubber-you're-glued every lie leveled at them. It was totally pathological.
My brain hurts.
posted by defenestration at 5:45 PM on September 16, 2008
The McCain rep I'm-rubber-you're-glued every lie leveled at them. It was totally pathological.
My brain hurts.
posted by defenestration at 5:45 PM on September 16, 2008
Thanks neroli. That video made my brain feel a bit better.
posted by defenestration at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by defenestration at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2008
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"
Oh barf. Every time I remember this moment from her speech I just want to reach out and smack the smug bitch. Anybody with half a brain growing up in a small town skeddadles at the first opportunity.
I live in a small town. We don't have a single bookstore, not since the Christian bookstore closed down. We don't have a non-chain restaurant (aside from the Toot-N-Tell and trust me, you don't want to go there.) We don't have a museum. If it weren't for the county library we wouldn't have a thing in this town to feed your brain or broaden your horizons. What we do have is lots of WalMarts and every other crappy chain you can think of. Lucky for us, Raleigh is only a 15 minute drive, otherwise this place would be intolerable.
I guess the whole idea of bringing up your children where they might get some culture is a foreign concept to Palin. Too Frenchified. Oh I forgot, the Palin kids get all the culture they need down at the big, fancy hockey rink, because looking at paintings from other times and other countries might make them dishonest, insincere, and undignified. And unwed, pregnant 17-year-old girls are so dignified and honest!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh barf. Every time I remember this moment from her speech I just want to reach out and smack the smug bitch. Anybody with half a brain growing up in a small town skeddadles at the first opportunity.
I live in a small town. We don't have a single bookstore, not since the Christian bookstore closed down. We don't have a non-chain restaurant (aside from the Toot-N-Tell and trust me, you don't want to go there.) We don't have a museum. If it weren't for the county library we wouldn't have a thing in this town to feed your brain or broaden your horizons. What we do have is lots of WalMarts and every other crappy chain you can think of. Lucky for us, Raleigh is only a 15 minute drive, otherwise this place would be intolerable.
I guess the whole idea of bringing up your children where they might get some culture is a foreign concept to Palin. Too Frenchified. Oh I forgot, the Palin kids get all the culture they need down at the big, fancy hockey rink, because looking at paintings from other times and other countries might make them dishonest, insincere, and undignified. And unwed, pregnant 17-year-old girls are so dignified and honest!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:02 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Toot-N-Tell
Nu-uh! It is not called that. Is it? It's called that? Is it next door to the Smelt-it Dealt-it Lounge?
posted by Bookhouse at 6:07 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Nu-uh! It is not called that. Is it? It's called that? Is it next door to the Smelt-it Dealt-it Lounge?
posted by Bookhouse at 6:07 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's called the Toot-N-Tell because it is right next to the train tracks, which explains the "Toot" but not the "Tell." It's been around forever. And just so you know exactly what small towns are really like, there used to be an ice cream shop on main street and the old lady who ran the shop sold cigarettes and a few staples like bread and milk. But the Toot-N-Tell is two blocks away and the owners complained to the city council that this was cutting into their business, so the ice cream vendor had to remove her other stock. The ice cream shop folded not long after, leaving those of us who live in the area with no place to buy a loaf of bread within walking distance.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I really like Debbie Wasserman Schultz too!
Just got back from an organizing meeting for volunteers for Obama in my town of 208...people are scared enough to work really hard.
posted by schyler523 at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2008
Just got back from an organizing meeting for volunteers for Obama in my town of 208...people are scared enough to work really hard.
posted by schyler523 at 6:41 PM on September 16, 2008
Lucky for us, Raleigh is only a 15 minute drive, otherwise this place would be intolerable.
I'm shaking my head....you have the benefits of a small town lifestyle (and there are some, here in NC) and you are FIFTEEN MINUTES from Raleigh, which means you are also near Chapel Hill and Durham, which means you have art museums and science museums and history museums and large universities and dance companies and on and on and on....for that matter I just checked your profile and you are in a Raleigh suburb.
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
Back to your point-I understand why you think where you live is intolerable. You live near people who are probably a lot like my cousins-heck, it's possible you DO live near a cousin of mine, for that matter. They aren't like me. I like art and dance and theater. They like Nascar and country music and visiting relatives and the occasional cigarette. And they love their little Baptist church and the covered dish suppers and the ball games and going fishing and so on and so forth.
And Raleigh is only 15 minutes away.
Oh, the horror.
posted by konolia at 6:45 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm shaking my head....you have the benefits of a small town lifestyle (and there are some, here in NC) and you are FIFTEEN MINUTES from Raleigh, which means you are also near Chapel Hill and Durham, which means you have art museums and science museums and history museums and large universities and dance companies and on and on and on....for that matter I just checked your profile and you are in a Raleigh suburb.
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
Back to your point-I understand why you think where you live is intolerable. You live near people who are probably a lot like my cousins-heck, it's possible you DO live near a cousin of mine, for that matter. They aren't like me. I like art and dance and theater. They like Nascar and country music and visiting relatives and the occasional cigarette. And they love their little Baptist church and the covered dish suppers and the ball games and going fishing and so on and so forth.
And Raleigh is only 15 minutes away.
Oh, the horror.
posted by konolia at 6:45 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm really wondering how the financial meltdown is going to play in the election. I mean, from where I stand, the difference in substance between what Obama is saying and what McCain is putting out is just ASTONISHING.
If you want to see the full deal, take a look at the speech he gave today in Colorado: 1, 2.
It's long, and it's kind of wonky, and he definitely runs out of steam a bit in the middle--but the mix of passion and information seems like the kind of thing that could be really effective right now.
Hardly anyone really gets what's going on with all the bank failures. Nobody knows what it's going to mean for them. People want to understand.
The thing about Obama's background that--according to the Republicans--was laughable, now seems more important: he's a teacher. And this is exactly the kind of situation where people might turn to a teacher before they turn to a soldier.
If he could only prune it down a little, put out the radio edit instead of the extended dance mix, I think he might really have something that could win people over.
posted by neroli at 7:04 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
If you want to see the full deal, take a look at the speech he gave today in Colorado: 1, 2.
It's long, and it's kind of wonky, and he definitely runs out of steam a bit in the middle--but the mix of passion and information seems like the kind of thing that could be really effective right now.
Hardly anyone really gets what's going on with all the bank failures. Nobody knows what it's going to mean for them. People want to understand.
The thing about Obama's background that--according to the Republicans--was laughable, now seems more important: he's a teacher. And this is exactly the kind of situation where people might turn to a teacher before they turn to a soldier.
If he could only prune it down a little, put out the radio edit instead of the extended dance mix, I think he might really have something that could win people over.
posted by neroli at 7:04 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
And they love their little Baptist church and the covered dish suppers and the ball games and going fishing and so on and so forth.
I think you've confused your relatives with the cast of the Andy Griffith show. No Worries...It could happen to anyone. There weren't any Black People in Mayberry, so my pretend family is The Huxtables. This game is fun! Let's play again!
2008: the year Republicans discovered sarcasm.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:06 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think you've confused your relatives with the cast of the Andy Griffith show. No Worries...It could happen to anyone. There weren't any Black People in Mayberry, so my pretend family is The Huxtables. This game is fun! Let's play again!
2008: the year Republicans discovered sarcasm.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:06 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
...can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
posted by neroli at 7:07 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by neroli at 7:07 PM on September 16, 2008
I have a HUGE crush on Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
I'm pretty impressed myself. She annoyed me n end when she was a Clinton surrogate with her case for counting the Florida delegates, but those same pitbull qualities (with lipstick, no less) are a heck of lot more appealing when they're deployed for the side you're on, and I'm glad she's been such a solid team player -- unlike a few . She stays on message like nobody's business. We need that.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:19 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty impressed myself. She annoyed me n end when she was a Clinton surrogate with her case for counting the Florida delegates, but those same pitbull qualities (with lipstick, no less) are a heck of lot more appealing when they're deployed for the side you're on, and I'm glad she's been such a solid team player -- unlike a few . She stays on message like nobody's business. We need that.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:19 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
I don't think anyone here would argue against the splendor and beauty of the outdoors, but I'll wager what was being referred to was the lack of culture that small towns have. Or rather, that a monoculture exists in small towns, and for many this is stifling, to put it mildly.
posted by zardoz at 7:22 PM on September 16, 2008
I don't think anyone here would argue against the splendor and beauty of the outdoors, but I'll wager what was being referred to was the lack of culture that small towns have. Or rather, that a monoculture exists in small towns, and for many this is stifling, to put it mildly.
posted by zardoz at 7:22 PM on September 16, 2008
We don't have a non-chain restaurant (aside from the Toot-N-Tell and trust me, you don't want to go there.)
Am I missing something here? It's like the name of that restaurant is bragging about how it will give you flatulence. Not trying to be condescending. I just don't see the attraction in it, that's all.
posted by jonp72 at 7:32 PM on September 16, 2008
Am I missing something here? It's like the name of that restaurant is bragging about how it will give you flatulence. Not trying to be condescending. I just don't see the attraction in it, that's all.
posted by jonp72 at 7:32 PM on September 16, 2008
If you want to see the full deal, take a look at the speech he gave today in Colorado: 1, 2.
The whole speech is posted one Obama's own youtube channel, sans annoying graphics. It's a pretty impressive 38 minutes, very worth listening to.
McCain also has a youtube channel, but it seems to have less stump speech coverage, more ads. I like the stump speeches - they are much more informative on policies than ads (duh).
posted by jb at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2008
The whole speech is posted one Obama's own youtube channel, sans annoying graphics. It's a pretty impressive 38 minutes, very worth listening to.
McCain also has a youtube channel, but it seems to have less stump speech coverage, more ads. I like the stump speeches - they are much more informative on policies than ads (duh).
posted by jb at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2008
Am I missing something here? It's like the name of that restaurant is bragging about how it will give you flatulence. Not trying to be condescending. I just don't see the attraction in it, that's all.
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity and great rumbling farts that would make city folk tremble in their Prada boots"
posted by neroli at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity and great rumbling farts that would make city folk tremble in their Prada boots"
posted by neroli at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
konolia - earlier you asked about Obama and the economy - I strongly suggest you listen to the speech which is heavy on substantive policy.
posted by jb at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by jb at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008
I think you've confused your relatives with the cast of the Andy Griffith show. No Worries...It could happen to anyone. There weren't any Black People in Mayberry, so my pretend family is The Huxtables. This game is fun! Let's play again!
I don't understand. I'm describing actual relatives.
By the way, Aunt Sharon's quite the cook. You'd love her coconut pie.
posted by konolia at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008
I don't understand. I'm describing actual relatives.
By the way, Aunt Sharon's quite the cook. You'd love her coconut pie.
posted by konolia at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008
Alaska is a magnificent backyard. So full of riches and beauty. So let's kill the beauty and plunder the riches!
Wolf and Polar Bear hunt from airplane after we convince people to Drill BABY DRILL!
posted by tomierna at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Wolf and Polar Bear hunt from airplane after we convince people to Drill BABY DRILL!
posted by tomierna at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't believe Governor Palin had any understanding of the phrase "Bush Doctrine" before the interview.
I wonder whether, when Palin heard the word "doctrine," she was thinking that "doctrine" referred to Bush's religious beliefs. It would make sense. Most of the time when we say "doctrine" outside of a foreign policy context, we use it to refer to religious doctrine. This would make Palin's reference to Bush's "worldview" more comprehensible. It also might explain why she paused and said, "In what respect, Charlie?" Palin was obviously prepped to take on questions about her religious views, as her attempt to deflect the "Is the Iraq War the will of God?" question with an Abraham Lincoln quotation might suggest. Instead of realizing that the question was about foreign policy, Palin may have thought it was an attempt to draw her into making statements that compared her religious worldview with George W. Bush's religious worldview.
posted by jonp72 at 8:05 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
I wonder whether, when Palin heard the word "doctrine," she was thinking that "doctrine" referred to Bush's religious beliefs. It would make sense. Most of the time when we say "doctrine" outside of a foreign policy context, we use it to refer to religious doctrine. This would make Palin's reference to Bush's "worldview" more comprehensible. It also might explain why she paused and said, "In what respect, Charlie?" Palin was obviously prepped to take on questions about her religious views, as her attempt to deflect the "Is the Iraq War the will of God?" question with an Abraham Lincoln quotation might suggest. Instead of realizing that the question was about foreign policy, Palin may have thought it was an attempt to draw her into making statements that compared her religious worldview with George W. Bush's religious worldview.
posted by jonp72 at 8:05 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
McCain reportedly ‘furious’ with Fiorina, campaign adviser says she will ‘disappear’ from TV.
posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on September 16, 2008
...can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
New Mexico. I absolutely relished that mountain view I had every single day on my walk to work, with those brilliant blue New Mexico skies. And that drive down the hill, facing the mountains near Santa Fe, especially in the winter? Aww, I fucking miss New Mexico. And they have way better food. I lived in Los Alamos for three years, and you know what? Republicans though they are, even they don't think the small town in New Mexico is the be-all-end-all of America and encourage their kids to rise above their small town experience and experience the rest that this great country, and frankly great world has to offer.
But then, most of them have those "worthless" PhDs, many from the "useless" Ivy League schools. I guess they don't count in the American Experience.
But it's funny. All my fish-fry, covered dish, church-going (mostly Methodist and Catholic, though, not "real" Christians) family are voting for Obama. Those that aren't, just can't stomach voting for a black man. I'm sure your proud to have them on your side. And you know what? Every one of them, including my mother, who can't (yet) bring herself to vote for a black man, is deeply proud of my academic accomplishments. My Dad (God rest his soul) called me his hero. My grandfather went around bragging to everyone he could about my "astrology" (astronomy) degree.
I'm sure you have too much time bearing false witness towards Barack Obama, along with your pals John McCain and Sarah Palin, like the good Christians you are, to really care what some "worthless" fellow American with a PhD thinks. But this particular "worthless American" thinks you can take your hatred, your bigotry, your lies, your proud stupidity, and shove them right back up your ass.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:16 PM on September 16, 2008 [10 favorites]
New Mexico. I absolutely relished that mountain view I had every single day on my walk to work, with those brilliant blue New Mexico skies. And that drive down the hill, facing the mountains near Santa Fe, especially in the winter? Aww, I fucking miss New Mexico. And they have way better food. I lived in Los Alamos for three years, and you know what? Republicans though they are, even they don't think the small town in New Mexico is the be-all-end-all of America and encourage their kids to rise above their small town experience and experience the rest that this great country, and frankly great world has to offer.
But then, most of them have those "worthless" PhDs, many from the "useless" Ivy League schools. I guess they don't count in the American Experience.
But it's funny. All my fish-fry, covered dish, church-going (mostly Methodist and Catholic, though, not "real" Christians) family are voting for Obama. Those that aren't, just can't stomach voting for a black man. I'm sure your proud to have them on your side. And you know what? Every one of them, including my mother, who can't (yet) bring herself to vote for a black man, is deeply proud of my academic accomplishments. My Dad (God rest his soul) called me his hero. My grandfather went around bragging to everyone he could about my "astrology" (astronomy) degree.
I'm sure you have too much time bearing false witness towards Barack Obama, along with your pals John McCain and Sarah Palin, like the good Christians you are, to really care what some "worthless" fellow American with a PhD thinks. But this particular "worthless American" thinks you can take your hatred, your bigotry, your lies, your proud stupidity, and shove them right back up your ass.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:16 PM on September 16, 2008 [10 favorites]
Well, I've spent a lot of time in New Mexico, which is indeed sublime country, and less time in Alaska, but while on sheer beauty they can be fairly compared, on wildness, there's no question Alaska is orders of magnitude more impressive.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:22 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:22 PM on September 16, 2008
Damn, neroli, that was hilarious. Highly recommended humor link alert.
While we're cracking ourselves up, here's a comment I saw on ThinkProgress tonight (where the news is that McCain has busted Carly Fiorina down to buck private rank in anger at her comments):
"it sure is getting crowded under the straight talk express."
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:26 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
While we're cracking ourselves up, here's a comment I saw on ThinkProgress tonight (where the news is that McCain has busted Carly Fiorina down to buck private rank in anger at her comments):
"it sure is getting crowded under the straight talk express."
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:26 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
I think you've confused your relatives with the cast of the Andy Griffith show.
i think you've confused your television with your brain
posted by pyramid termite at 8:38 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
i think you've confused your television with your brain
posted by pyramid termite at 8:38 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
At least John Sidney McCain, III isn't a Democrat.
on preview: LOL, fourcheesemac
posted by lysdexic at 8:50 PM on September 16, 2008
on preview: LOL, fourcheesemac
posted by lysdexic at 8:50 PM on September 16, 2008
I'm really wondering how the financial meltdown is going to play in the election.
It's a huge plus for McCain. As the only candidate to have barely escaped indictment in a scandal involving a massive bank industry failure brought about by corrupt lobying of the Senate, and the subsequent $150+ billion, largely taxpayer funded bailout, he has the experience to guide us through this one. Expect to see his ads about that tomorrow. Or, wait, no.
Why isn't anyone talking about this? Did we forget?
posted by The Bellman at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's a huge plus for McCain. As the only candidate to have barely escaped indictment in a scandal involving a massive bank industry failure brought about by corrupt lobying of the Senate, and the subsequent $150+ billion, largely taxpayer funded bailout, he has the experience to guide us through this one. Expect to see his ads about that tomorrow. Or, wait, no.
Why isn't anyone talking about this? Did we forget?
posted by The Bellman at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
So that WSJ article by Bret Stephens attempts to justify Palin's inexperience by comparing her to three former VP picks who it argues were also inexperienced. Let's compare the three records [facts courtesy of Wikipedia]:
Calvin Coolidge
Stephens says:
Graduated from Amherst, practiced law in Amherst, MA
1896: Campaigned for McKinley
1897: Became chair of Republican Committee
1898: Opened own law office
1898: he won election to the City Council of Northampton
1899: he declined renomination, running instead for City Solicitor.
1900: Elected for a one-year term in 1900
1901: Re-elected , and reelected in 1901
1901: Selected for clerk of county courts
1906: Nominated for election to the state House of Representatives. He won a close victory over the incumbent Democrat. In his freshman term, Coolidge served on minor committees and, although he usually voted with the party, was known as a Progressive Republican, voting in favor of such measures as women's suffrage and the direct election of Senators
1907: Served in the session of the Massachusetts General Court.
1909: Ran for mayor of Northampton. Defeated his challenger by a vote of 1,597 to 1,409.[29] During his first term (1910 to 1911), he increased teachers' salaries and retired some of the city's debt while still managing to effect a slight tax decrease.[30]
1911: Renominated, defeating the same opponent by a slightly larger margin.[31]
1912: Ran for State Senator and won by a large margin. Served on arbitration committee that settled the "bread and roses" strike.
1913: Served another term as state senator, serving as chairman on railroad committee
1914: Coolidge elected again to state Senate and unanimously elected as President of the Senate.
1915: Coolidge runs for Lieutenant Governor and wins.
1916: Coolidge is re-elected as Lt. Governor
1918: Coolidge runs for Governor and wins, quashes major police strike
1919: Coolidge runs for governor again, winning by an even larger margion, leading to His suggestions that Coolidge should run for President in 1920.[
1920: Coolidge is nominated by the Republican Party to run as Vice President.
Teddy Roosevelt
Stephens says:
1880: Graduated graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude (22nd of 177) from Harvard in 1880, and entered Columbia Law School.
1881: Ran for New York Assemblyman, won. Authored more bills than any other state legislator.
1882: Wrote an influential history book on the war of 1812.
1884: Left Senate.
1887-96: Wrote six more books, including a four-volume History of the West
1888: Campaigned for Benjamin Harrison
1888-1895: Served in the US Civil Service Commision, to which he was nominated by Harrison
1895-97: Served as head of NYC Police Commisioners, totally reforming department
1897: Served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, apppointed by President McKinley
1898: Formed and led volunteer regiment of "Rough Riders" in Spanish-American War. He was nominated for, and posthumously awarded, the Medal of Honor, the only American President to be decorated with the highest military honor in the nation.
1898: Elected Governor of New York.
1900: Republican Party pressured McKinley to take him on as running mate.
1901: Roosevelt takes on Presidency after six months as VP after McKinley dies of a gunshot wound.
Harry S Truman
Stephens says:
1905-11 Served in National Guard
1917-19 Appointed an officer commanding an artillery brigade
1922: Elected County Judge
1926: Elected Presiding Judge for the county court
1930: Re-elected Presiding Judge. Coordinated the "Ten Year Plan", which transformed Jackson County and the Kansas City skyline with public works projects, including an roads, construction of a new County Court building, and the dedication of a series of 12 monuments honoring pioneer women.
1933: Appointed Missouri's director for the Federal Re-Employment program (part of the Civil Works Administration)
1934: Won election to US Senate by more than 20 percent
1940: Succeeded in winning contested re-election to the Senate
1941: Headed a US Senate committee examining wastefulness in the military; saved $15 billion and as a result was nominated Time's Man of the Year in 1945
1944: Nominated Vice President
Those are some pretty impressive resumes by individuals who dedicated their lives to public service, paying their dues by gaining experience in important elected offices. Let's see whether Stephen's comparison of their resumes to Palin's holds up.
Sarah Palin
1982-1987: Attends five different colleges, eventually graduating from the University of Idaho
1984: Won Miss Wasilla Beauty Contest and second runner-up in Miss Alaska Beauty Pageant.
1988: In 1988, worked as a sports reporter for KTUU-TV in Anchorage, Alaska, and for the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman as a sports reporter. Also helped in her husband’s commercial fishing family business.
1992: Elected to City Council of Wasilla on 530 votes. to opponent's 310.
1995: Elected to City Council again, 413 votes to 185
1996: Quits council term to run for mayor of Wasilla, population 6300. Wins.
1999: Elected to second mayoral term. Elected president of Alaska Council of Mayors.
2002: Term limits prevented another run for mayor. Runs for Lt. Governor, loses.
2003: Appointed to Oil and Gas Commission as "ethics supervisor." Resigns in less than a year, citing "lack of ethics" among commission members
2003-05: Served as one of three directors of "[later indicted] Ted Steven's Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," a 527 group s designed to provide political training for Republican women in Alaska. [Palin told the Anchorage Daily News that she had decided not to run for the U.S. Senate that year because her teenage son opposed it. Palin said "How could I be the team mom if I was a U.S. Senator?"]
2006: Elected as Governor.
And there you have it! Looks like it takes one of those stretches of epic proportions to compare Palin's skimpy record with some of the most influential politicians of the last century - people who dedicated the bulk of their careers to public service, giving government the serious attention it requires, and making sure they had abundant experience in military service, law, committee work, and governance before allowing themselves to be nominated for the second-highest office in the land. Good thing TR was so experienced, since McKinley kicked the bucket only six months after he attained the VP desk.
In their days, people believed that a demonstrated history of serious public service, the ability to lead, and qualifications were required before they would grant their votes to someone seeking office. Stephens takes a pretty huge risk invoking the names of three prominent and experienced Republicans of the past century - I know he means to shore up Palin's case, but anyone who looks at the records of the three people he names can't help but notice the glaring differences between their qualifications and hers. Maybe not such a smart gambit.
posted by Miko at 9:00 PM on September 16, 2008 [30 favorites]
Calvin Coolidge
Stephens says:
When Coolidge was named to Warren Harding's ticket in 1920, he had been governor of Massachusetts for less than two years. Aside from a largely powerless stint as lieutenant governor and other smaller legislative posts, his chief previous government experience was as mayor of Northampton, to which he was first elected in 1910 by a Wasilla-like margin of 1,597 to 1,409.Survey says:
Graduated from Amherst, practiced law in Amherst, MA
1896: Campaigned for McKinley
1897: Became chair of Republican Committee
1898: Opened own law office
1898: he won election to the City Council of Northampton
1899: he declined renomination, running instead for City Solicitor.
1900: Elected for a one-year term in 1900
1901: Re-elected , and reelected in 1901
1901: Selected for clerk of county courts
1906: Nominated for election to the state House of Representatives. He won a close victory over the incumbent Democrat. In his freshman term, Coolidge served on minor committees and, although he usually voted with the party, was known as a Progressive Republican, voting in favor of such measures as women's suffrage and the direct election of Senators
1907: Served in the session of the Massachusetts General Court.
1909: Ran for mayor of Northampton. Defeated his challenger by a vote of 1,597 to 1,409.[29] During his first term (1910 to 1911), he increased teachers' salaries and retired some of the city's debt while still managing to effect a slight tax decrease.[30]
1911: Renominated, defeating the same opponent by a slightly larger margin.[31]
1912: Ran for State Senator and won by a large margin. Served on arbitration committee that settled the "bread and roses" strike.
1913: Served another term as state senator, serving as chairman on railroad committee
1914: Coolidge elected again to state Senate and unanimously elected as President of the Senate.
1915: Coolidge runs for Lieutenant Governor and wins.
1916: Coolidge is re-elected as Lt. Governor
1918: Coolidge runs for Governor and wins, quashes major police strike
1919: Coolidge runs for governor again, winning by an even larger margion, leading to His suggestions that Coolidge should run for President in 1920.[
1920: Coolidge is nominated by the Republican Party to run as Vice President.
Teddy Roosevelt
Stephens says:
TR, as a former assistant secretary of the Navy, had more foreign policy experience than Mrs. Palin, though one wonders what today we would make of a candidate whose proud boast was that he had killed an enemy soldier "like a jackrabbit.Survey says:
1880: Graduated graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude (22nd of 177) from Harvard in 1880, and entered Columbia Law School.
1881: Ran for New York Assemblyman, won. Authored more bills than any other state legislator.
1882: Wrote an influential history book on the war of 1812.
1884: Left Senate.
1887-96: Wrote six more books, including a four-volume History of the West
1888: Campaigned for Benjamin Harrison
1888-1895: Served in the US Civil Service Commision, to which he was nominated by Harrison
1895-97: Served as head of NYC Police Commisioners, totally reforming department
1897: Served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, apppointed by President McKinley
1898: Formed and led volunteer regiment of "Rough Riders" in Spanish-American War. He was nominated for, and posthumously awarded, the Medal of Honor, the only American President to be decorated with the highest military honor in the nation.
1898: Elected Governor of New York.
1900: Republican Party pressured McKinley to take him on as running mate.
1901: Roosevelt takes on Presidency after six months as VP after McKinley dies of a gunshot wound.
Harry S Truman
Stephens says:
"Then there is Harry Truman, to whom Mrs. Palin compared herself at the Republican convention. "He had only to open his mouth and his origins were plain," wrote David McCullough... "It wasn't just that he came from a particular part of the country, geographically, but from a specific part of the American experience, an authentic pioneer background, and a specific place in the American imagination."Survey says:
The Truman comparison seems especially to rankle Mrs. Palin's critics, perhaps because in many respects it rings true. Take vetting. John McCain may have met Mrs. Palin only once before he offered her the job, but Franklin Roosevelt admitted "I hardly know Truman" in July 1944, the same month the "Senator from Pendergast" was put on the Democratic ticket.
Or take foreign policy experience. It's fair to say that Mrs. Palin has none, and the McCain campaign should drop the transparent pretense that Alaska's proximity to Russia, or her nominal responsibility for the state's National Guard, gives her some.
Then again, what did Truman know? "Truman had no experience in relations with Britain or Russia, no firsthand knowledge of Churchill or Stalin," writes Mr. McCullough. "He didn't know his own Secretary of State, more than to say hello. . . . Roosevelt, Truman would tell [daughter] Margaret privately, 'never did talk to me confidentially about the war, or about foreign affairs or what he had in mind for peace after the war.' He was unprepared, bewildered."
Truman, it's true, had served bravely as an army captain in World War I; he knew the nature of war. But his chief recommendation as a U.S. senator was as a good-government type who bucked his home state's machine politics (though not so frontally as Mrs. Palin bucked hers) and fought waste, fraud and corruption in military spending."
1905-11 Served in National Guard
1917-19 Appointed an officer commanding an artillery brigade
1922: Elected County Judge
1926: Elected Presiding Judge for the county court
1930: Re-elected Presiding Judge. Coordinated the "Ten Year Plan", which transformed Jackson County and the Kansas City skyline with public works projects, including an roads, construction of a new County Court building, and the dedication of a series of 12 monuments honoring pioneer women.
1933: Appointed Missouri's director for the Federal Re-Employment program (part of the Civil Works Administration)
1934: Won election to US Senate by more than 20 percent
1940: Succeeded in winning contested re-election to the Senate
1941: Headed a US Senate committee examining wastefulness in the military; saved $15 billion and as a result was nominated Time's Man of the Year in 1945
1944: Nominated Vice President
Those are some pretty impressive resumes by individuals who dedicated their lives to public service, paying their dues by gaining experience in important elected offices. Let's see whether Stephen's comparison of their resumes to Palin's holds up.
Sarah Palin
1982-1987: Attends five different colleges, eventually graduating from the University of Idaho
1984: Won Miss Wasilla Beauty Contest and second runner-up in Miss Alaska Beauty Pageant.
1988: In 1988, worked as a sports reporter for KTUU-TV in Anchorage, Alaska, and for the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman as a sports reporter. Also helped in her husband’s commercial fishing family business.
1992: Elected to City Council of Wasilla on 530 votes. to opponent's 310.
1995: Elected to City Council again, 413 votes to 185
1996: Quits council term to run for mayor of Wasilla, population 6300. Wins.
1999: Elected to second mayoral term. Elected president of Alaska Council of Mayors.
2002: Term limits prevented another run for mayor. Runs for Lt. Governor, loses.
2003: Appointed to Oil and Gas Commission as "ethics supervisor." Resigns in less than a year, citing "lack of ethics" among commission members
2003-05: Served as one of three directors of "[later indicted] Ted Steven's Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," a 527 group s designed to provide political training for Republican women in Alaska. [Palin told the Anchorage Daily News that she had decided not to run for the U.S. Senate that year because her teenage son opposed it. Palin said "How could I be the team mom if I was a U.S. Senator?"]
2006: Elected as Governor.
And there you have it! Looks like it takes one of those stretches of epic proportions to compare Palin's skimpy record with some of the most influential politicians of the last century - people who dedicated the bulk of their careers to public service, giving government the serious attention it requires, and making sure they had abundant experience in military service, law, committee work, and governance before allowing themselves to be nominated for the second-highest office in the land. Good thing TR was so experienced, since McKinley kicked the bucket only six months after he attained the VP desk.
In their days, people believed that a demonstrated history of serious public service, the ability to lead, and qualifications were required before they would grant their votes to someone seeking office. Stephens takes a pretty huge risk invoking the names of three prominent and experienced Republicans of the past century - I know he means to shore up Palin's case, but anyone who looks at the records of the three people he names can't help but notice the glaring differences between their qualifications and hers. Maybe not such a smart gambit.
posted by Miko at 9:00 PM on September 16, 2008 [30 favorites]
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
The scorched, barren deserts of a post-WWIII apocalypse, amirite?
posted by cortex at 9:02 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
The scorched, barren deserts of a post-WWIII apocalypse, amirite?
posted by cortex at 9:02 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Grand Moff Palin.
Oh look what Sarah Palin is wearing now: It’s an Imperial death smock.
I literally laughed so hard I snorted!
not piggist
posted by cashman at 9:04 PM on September 16, 2008
Oh look what Sarah Palin is wearing now: It’s an Imperial death smock.
I literally laughed so hard I snorted!
not piggist
posted by cashman at 9:04 PM on September 16, 2008
[sexist]Yet another Bush We Can't Trust[/sexist]
via my GF on Ravelry
posted by schyler523 at 9:05 PM on September 16, 2008
via my GF on Ravelry
posted by schyler523 at 9:05 PM on September 16, 2008
I don't understand. I'm describing actual relatives.
You could just as well be describing my actual relatives. They live fifteen minutes drive from a town of people... in the mountains. Even for BC, they're hicks. Seriously, even for BC.
The basic mathematics and self-evident logic of the theory of evolution as a good and often predictive research tool, is beyond them; let alone that the formula for evolution as a motive force lacks any ability to pass judgement on the theory of godhead.
But, still, they're mostly harmless. They're probably not one-issue voters. And even if they were, it's not like we have batshitinsane rape-baby mommas and alzheimer daddies running our political parties.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:05 PM on September 16, 2008
You could just as well be describing my actual relatives. They live fifteen minutes drive from a town of people... in the mountains. Even for BC, they're hicks. Seriously, even for BC.
The basic mathematics and self-evident logic of the theory of evolution as a good and often predictive research tool, is beyond them; let alone that the formula for evolution as a motive force lacks any ability to pass judgement on the theory of godhead.
But, still, they're mostly harmless. They're probably not one-issue voters. And even if they were, it's not like we have batshitinsane rape-baby mommas and alzheimer daddies running our political parties.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:05 PM on September 16, 2008
Miko is amazing!
posted by schyler523 at 9:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by schyler523 at 9:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Miko is amazing!
Nah -- just tired of the bullshit! We're a better country than this. I'd like to believe.
posted by Miko at 9:14 PM on September 16, 2008
Nah -- just tired of the bullshit! We're a better country than this. I'd like to believe.
posted by Miko at 9:14 PM on September 16, 2008
The Truman comparison seems especially to rankle Mrs. Palin's critics, perhaps because in many respects it rings true.
Yes, but (as a native Missourian) in the "I knew Harry Truman, and you're no Harry Truman" sort of way.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:18 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yes, but (as a native Missourian) in the "I knew Harry Truman, and you're no Harry Truman" sort of way.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:18 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
The scorched, barren deserts of a post-WWIII apocalypse, amirite?
Apparently AoG are into a pre-tribulation rapture, so after bringing about the proper conditions for the Apocalypse Palin and family get to go chill with Jesus while the unsaved suffer all the nasty shit. Then they get to come back for a triumphant battle with the demonic forces (I suspect Palin shall snipe from a helicopter) and the thousand-year theocracy followed by the Last Judgment.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:26 PM on September 16, 2008
Apparently AoG are into a pre-tribulation rapture, so after bringing about the proper conditions for the Apocalypse Palin and family get to go chill with Jesus while the unsaved suffer all the nasty shit. Then they get to come back for a triumphant battle with the demonic forces (I suspect Palin shall snipe from a helicopter) and the thousand-year theocracy followed by the Last Judgment.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:26 PM on September 16, 2008
Full disclosure: I'm voting for McCain.
Double Full disclosure: Most of you will *forget* to vote because you'll be too busy furiously adding to threads like this.
In another 20 years you'll smarten up.
Maybe.
PS I know "smarten" isn't a word, but post away, that's your prime directive(that's something sci-fi that makes you guys do things, right?)
posted by Rafaelloello at 9:43 PM on September 16, 2008
Double Full disclosure: Most of you will *forget* to vote because you'll be too busy furiously adding to threads like this.
In another 20 years you'll smarten up.
Maybe.
PS I know "smarten" isn't a word, but post away, that's your prime directive(that's something sci-fi that makes you guys do things, right?)
posted by Rafaelloello at 9:43 PM on September 16, 2008
Bob Barr lawsuit seeks to bar (pun intended) Obama and McCain from Texas Ballot.
posted by schyler523 at 9:44 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by schyler523 at 9:44 PM on September 16, 2008
Smarten is, in fact, a word. Jane Austen was using it two hundred years ago.
Plus, Oregon has vote-by-mail, so I can participate in democracy without having to leavethe house my mother's basement.
posted by cortex at 9:58 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Plus, Oregon has vote-by-mail, so I can participate in democracy without having to leave
posted by cortex at 9:58 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
Why isn't anyone talking about this? Did we forget?
The Rachel Maddow Show had David Sirota on.
...McCain's fortmative economic experience was in the last crisis, the S&L crisis, where he was one of the Keating Five. In that scandal, he was somebody who used his senate position to effectively intervene and press regulators to not get involved and regulate that scandal.
And I don't know if that second (video) link will work. It should be the McCain-omics video. And you will have to sit through an ad.
posted by effwerd at 10:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
The Rachel Maddow Show had David Sirota on.
...McCain's fortmative economic experience was in the last crisis, the S&L crisis, where he was one of the Keating Five. In that scandal, he was somebody who used his senate position to effectively intervene and press regulators to not get involved and regulate that scandal.
And I don't know if that second (video) link will work. It should be the McCain-omics video. And you will have to sit through an ad.
posted by effwerd at 10:12 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
you'll be too busy furiously adding to threads like this.
Right, whereas you'll be adding your bon mots to threads like this, or were those 17 posts in the original Palin thread by another Rafaelloello?
Seriously, dude, not many of us here who can vote will be "forgetting" jack on election day.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:23 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Right, whereas you'll be adding your bon mots to threads like this, or were those 17 posts in the original Palin thread by another Rafaelloello?
Seriously, dude, not many of us here who can vote will be "forgetting" jack on election day.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:23 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Full disclosure: I'm voting for McCain.
No, Rafaelloello, not you! (Who are you, anyway?) Anybody but you! (Honestly, who are you?) I don't believe in nothin' no more now that you've decided to exercise your constitutional right as you see fit! (Seriously, it's cool, but y'know, what do you want, a medal?)
I get that to someone who leans Right such a pronouncement in a overwhelmingly Centre-Left community like this one may feel akin to coming out to your Lumberjack/Marine dad, but aside from a couple of wacky folks, I'm betting that most who read your earthshattering revelation will shrug their shoulders and say 'Well, at least he's voting'.
Because that's sort of how democracy works.
Full disclosure: Canadian, making his first political donation EVAR to Obama.
I just wish I had done it before the dollar went below parity.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
No, Rafaelloello, not you! (Who are you, anyway?) Anybody but you! (Honestly, who are you?) I don't believe in nothin' no more now that you've decided to exercise your constitutional right as you see fit! (Seriously, it's cool, but y'know, what do you want, a medal?)
I get that to someone who leans Right such a pronouncement in a overwhelmingly Centre-Left community like this one may feel akin to coming out to your Lumberjack/Marine dad, but aside from a couple of wacky folks, I'm betting that most who read your earthshattering revelation will shrug their shoulders and say 'Well, at least he's voting'.
Because that's sort of how democracy works.
Full disclosure: Canadian, making his first political donation EVAR to Obama.
I just wish I had done it before the dollar went below parity.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
You're right, dude. I'm totally going to forget to vote. Totally going to forget to make sure a bunch of people I know vote too. Yup, yup.
posted by cashman at 10:56 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by cashman at 10:56 PM on September 16, 2008
Full disclosure: Canadian, making his first political donation EVAR to Obama.
Uh, no you're not, because that's illegal.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Uh, no you're not, because that's illegal.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
And to think you were on my short list of potential fronts, dirigibleman.
*Shakes head*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:03 PM on September 16, 2008
*Shakes head*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:03 PM on September 16, 2008
Double Full disclosure: Most of you will *forget* to vote because you'll be too busy furiously adding to threads like this.
Oh, Rafaelloello, thank you for the best laugh I've had all day.
posted by palomar at 11:16 PM on September 16, 2008
Oh, Rafaelloello, thank you for the best laugh I've had all day.
posted by palomar at 11:16 PM on September 16, 2008
Caligula for President: Better American Living Through Tyranny
posted by homunculus at 11:18 PM on September 16, 2008
posted by homunculus at 11:18 PM on September 16, 2008
"...and I was told I would be addressing you alone."
Well, that would have been interesting...
Also: Alaska's Attorney General blocks subpoena of state employees in Troopergate probe
jonp72: "I wonder whether, when Palin heard the word "doctrine," she was thinking that "doctrine" referred to Bush's religious beliefs. It would make sense. Most of the time when we say "doctrine" outside of a foreign policy context, we use it to refer to religious doctrine. This would make Palin's reference to Bush's "worldview" more comprehensible."
But that just raises a different set of concerns. I mean, is it not troubling that someone with a very real chance of becoming president would immediately interpret an ambiguous term like "doctrine" in its religious sense rather than the diplomatic one?
To put it another way, when vetting an aspiring chemist it is not a very encouraging sign to hear him say "yoon-yen-ized" instead of "un-eye-on-ized".
posted by Rhaomi at 2:02 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, that would have been interesting...
Also: Alaska's Attorney General blocks subpoena of state employees in Troopergate probe
jonp72: "I wonder whether, when Palin heard the word "doctrine," she was thinking that "doctrine" referred to Bush's religious beliefs. It would make sense. Most of the time when we say "doctrine" outside of a foreign policy context, we use it to refer to religious doctrine. This would make Palin's reference to Bush's "worldview" more comprehensible."
But that just raises a different set of concerns. I mean, is it not troubling that someone with a very real chance of becoming president would immediately interpret an ambiguous term like "doctrine" in its religious sense rather than the diplomatic one?
To put it another way, when vetting an aspiring chemist it is not a very encouraging sign to hear him say "yoon-yen-ized" instead of "un-eye-on-ized".
posted by Rhaomi at 2:02 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, Rafaelloello, thank you for the best laugh I've had all day.
Sure, and when you wake up at your desk on November 5th, the impressions of the keys from your keyboard on your face, and you realize you forgot to vote because you were too busy posting on the internet, then who'll be laughing, eh wiseacre? I personally intend to set up a desktop widget that reminds me to vote. That's what we science-fiction folks do. Nanoo-nanoo! Smarten up!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:11 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
Sure, and when you wake up at your desk on November 5th, the impressions of the keys from your keyboard on your face, and you realize you forgot to vote because you were too busy posting on the internet, then who'll be laughing, eh wiseacre? I personally intend to set up a desktop widget that reminds me to vote. That's what we science-fiction folks do. Nanoo-nanoo! Smarten up!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:11 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
I think Rafaelolleo whatever felt inspired to come out to us Marine/Lumberjack types, and that can't have been easy or felt very safe. For whatever reason, at the time he needed us to know he was going to vote, and not for the guy most MeFites are supporting. I can see where reading a thread like this you'd start to feel like you were a freak, the only one of your kind (other than konolia, who is a kind in her own right).
I'd like to give him (?) a group hug. We'll all get through this, you know. As a family. And we still love you Rafaelolleo. We don't care if you do have a thing for pigs in lipstick. You're one of us.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:30 AM on September 17, 2008
I'd like to give him (?) a group hug. We'll all get through this, you know. As a family. And we still love you Rafaelolleo. We don't care if you do have a thing for pigs in lipstick. You're one of us.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:30 AM on September 17, 2008
Republicans begin efforts to suppress the vote in Florida and California, via "We have you registered as a republican" mailers with "Do Not Forward" stamped on them. Election officials criticize the efforts.
posted by cashman at 5:35 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
The piece, paid for by the Republican National Committee and authorized by McCain, tells voters it is seeking to double-check their "unconfirmed" party affiliations while asking for money. A letter signed by McCain tells the Democrats: "We have you registered as a Republican."This is sickening.
Two top Florida elections officials, both Republicans, faulted the GOP mailing, calling it "confusing" and "unfortunate" because of a potential to undermine voter confidence by making them question the accuracy of their registrations.
"It is unfortunate, because it does put a lot of doubt in people's minds," said Secretary of State Kurt Browning, the state's top elections official.
After his office received dozens of calls, Duval County Supervisor of Elections Jerry Holland issued a media alert that his office had nothing to do with it. "They were upset folks and they were very concerned," said Holland, a Republican. "They mainly said their party (listing) was different than it was."
Some Democrats suspect a motive beyond raising money. The first-class GOP mailing has a "Do not forward" instruction on the envelope, meaning they will be returned to the GOP if a recipient has had mail forwarded, perhaps to a summer address, or has moved.
Letters returned as undeliverable can be compiled into "challenge lists" of unverifiable addresses and can be used to challenge voters' eligibility during early voting or on Election Day. The vote suppression technique is known as "vote caging."
The letter asks recipients to note changes on an "RNC File Card" and return it to the party by Sept. 26. The card shows a nine-digit "voter ID" number, but the supervisor of elections in Jacksonville's Duval County said the numbers are wrong and do not match the state's voter database.
posted by cashman at 5:35 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
You know, at the beginning of all this, back when Obama and Clinton were still death-matching but McCain had already been chose, I thought, "You know, this could be so much worse. I like Barack a lot, Clinton pretty well and McCain, while I'd never vote for him, I do think he is an honorable man. The sanest Republican anywhere near national office, even, and maybe things will be OK no matter what happens"
Boy was I out to fucking lunch. We are in a scrap with crazy, wicked people. A hell of a scrap.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:16 AM on September 17, 2008 [14 favorites]
Boy was I out to fucking lunch. We are in a scrap with crazy, wicked people. A hell of a scrap.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:16 AM on September 17, 2008 [14 favorites]
The Sarah Palin Phenomenon Is Doomed -- "The Media Live To Build You Up, Then Knock You Down."
posted by ericb at 7:10 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by ericb at 7:10 AM on September 17, 2008
Full disclosure: I'm voting for McCain.
Don't tell me, Rafaelloello: you personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids, as well? Nuff said.
posted by ericb at 7:14 AM on September 17, 2008
Don't tell me, Rafaelloello: you personally know a woman who used to babysit his three oldest kids, as well? Nuff said.
posted by ericb at 7:14 AM on September 17, 2008
It's a real shame these voter-repression techniques werent made illegal during the past four years.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:14 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 7:14 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bob Barr lawsuit seeks to bar (pun intended) Obama and McCain from Texas Ballot.
Not Bad Bob Barr? Bothersome Bob Barr? Bob the Butcher Barr?
posted by kirkaracha at 7:24 AM on September 17, 2008
The Palin Bounce Fades for McCain -- "Polls show Obama gaining strength on doubts over GOP's VP pick and McCain's economy flip-flops."
posted by ericb at 7:40 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by ericb at 7:40 AM on September 17, 2008
Four More Years! Four More Years!
"For much of this year, Mr. McCain has seemed to struggle to strike a balance between conveying the optimism that many voters want in their leaders, and the I-feel-your-pain empathy that they crave during hard times. His task is complicated by the tension between his plans to continue many of the economic policies of the unpopular incumbent Republican president he hopes to succeed, and his pledges to improve the American economy and shake up Washington.posted by ericb at 7:49 AM on September 17, 2008
As recently as January, Mr. McCain argued at a Republican debate that Americans were better off than they were eight years ago; by this summer he had released an advertisement that said 'we’re worse off than we were four years ago.'"
Ghah, in light of the six(!) irate/upset e-mails accusing me of criminality I woke up to following my Canadian-donating-to-Obama comment, I should probably clarify that no, I did not actually get a front; an American friend purchased a handsome mug from Obama's website, rounded up his donation, and in the spirit of the free trade and friendship which binds our nations together, sold said mug to me at the price he paid for it.
No fraud or funneling of funds, no grounds for accusations of foreign influence, no untoward shenanigans that would reflect badly upon the candidate. So please accept my apologies for any misunderstandings my glibness caused, and stop sending me e-mails saying I'm going to end up in American jail. 'Cuz that's just not funny.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:02 AM on September 17, 2008
No fraud or funneling of funds, no grounds for accusations of foreign influence, no untoward shenanigans that would reflect badly upon the candidate. So please accept my apologies for any misunderstandings my glibness caused, and stop sending me e-mails saying I'm going to end up in American jail. 'Cuz that's just not funny.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:02 AM on September 17, 2008
I'm going to hope and pray Obama is elected.... I doubt we can afford 4 more years of Bush.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:04 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:04 AM on September 17, 2008
I'm shaking my head....you have the benefits of a small town lifestyle (and there are some, here in NC) and you are FIFTEEN MINUTES from Raleigh, which means you are also near Chapel Hill and Durham, which means you have art museums and science museums and history museums and large universities and dance companies and on and on and on....for that matter I just checked your profile and you are in a Raleigh suburb.
Are you willfully obtuse or do you just have trouble with reading comprhension? My point was that small towns are limiting by virtue of their smallness and if you want anything that is out of the ordinary you have to leave the small town and go somewhere else.
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
If I could have a second home in Alaska that would be fine for family vacations. Or if I wanted to bring my child up to become a big game hunter or the best hockey player in the world then Alaska might be my choice. But if I wanted to bring her up to appreciate fine art and fine dining, and expose her to different cultures, languages,and music so that she became a well-rounded person then Alaska would not be on my list, no. Within driving distance of Paris, London, or New York would be ideal.
Back to your point-I understand why you think where you live is intolerable. You live near people who are probably a lot like my cousins-heck, it's possible you DO live near a cousin of mine, for that matter. They aren't like me. I like art and dance and theater. They like Nascar and country music and visiting relatives and the occasional cigarette. And they love their little Baptist church and the covered dish suppers and the ball games and going fishing and so on and so forth.
First of all I said it would be intolerable if I could not go to five star restaurants in Durham, the theater in Chapel Hill, and the museums in Raleigh. Second, visiting relatives, going to church, and fishing are great activities for middle age folk who have given up on straining their brain at all. I'd be willing to bet that they love the all-you-can-eat buffet at The Golden Corral and Disney films. People who stay in their comfort zones and never get exposed to anything out of the ordinary, anything they might have to think too hard about, love small towns and small town activities because it is just so comforting. Liked mashed potatoes. But I fail to see why that makes them more honorable, dignified, or more sincere than people who live in the city. What it does make them (often, not always) is intolerant of other lifestyles. And it also makes them boring.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:10 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Are you willfully obtuse or do you just have trouble with reading comprhension? My point was that small towns are limiting by virtue of their smallness and if you want anything that is out of the ordinary you have to leave the small town and go somewhere else.
As for Palin and where she brought up her children, can you think of a more magnificent landscape for one's backyard than Alaska?
If I could have a second home in Alaska that would be fine for family vacations. Or if I wanted to bring my child up to become a big game hunter or the best hockey player in the world then Alaska might be my choice. But if I wanted to bring her up to appreciate fine art and fine dining, and expose her to different cultures, languages,and music so that she became a well-rounded person then Alaska would not be on my list, no. Within driving distance of Paris, London, or New York would be ideal.
Back to your point-I understand why you think where you live is intolerable. You live near people who are probably a lot like my cousins-heck, it's possible you DO live near a cousin of mine, for that matter. They aren't like me. I like art and dance and theater. They like Nascar and country music and visiting relatives and the occasional cigarette. And they love their little Baptist church and the covered dish suppers and the ball games and going fishing and so on and so forth.
First of all I said it would be intolerable if I could not go to five star restaurants in Durham, the theater in Chapel Hill, and the museums in Raleigh. Second, visiting relatives, going to church, and fishing are great activities for middle age folk who have given up on straining their brain at all. I'd be willing to bet that they love the all-you-can-eat buffet at The Golden Corral and Disney films. People who stay in their comfort zones and never get exposed to anything out of the ordinary, anything they might have to think too hard about, love small towns and small town activities because it is just so comforting. Liked mashed potatoes. But I fail to see why that makes them more honorable, dignified, or more sincere than people who live in the city. What it does make them (often, not always) is intolerant of other lifestyles. And it also makes them boring.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:10 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
I forgot to add that since I have now learned that Alaska is the Rape Capital of America and that Wasilla is the Meth Capital of Alaska, I would most assuredly NOT choose to raise my daughter in Wasilla.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:17 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:17 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
People who stay in their comfort zones and never get exposed to anything out of the ordinary, anything they might have to think too hard about, love small towns and small town activities because it is just so comforting. Liked mashed potatoes. But I fail to see why that makes them more honorable, dignified, or more sincere than people who live in the city. What it does make them (often, not always) is intolerant of other lifestyles. And it also makes them boring.
This kind of crap just makes it harder to communicate across party lines -- much as I feel the sentiment you're getting at, it's not helpful and it feeds the troll.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 8:43 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
This kind of crap just makes it harder to communicate across party lines -- much as I feel the sentiment you're getting at, it's not helpful and it feeds the troll.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 8:43 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Further on the "Catholic country" business, back in April, Douglas Kmiec -- a staunch Republican and Reagan Justice Dept. official -- was *denied communion* by his Catholic church for having endorsed Barack Obama.
In a world where laws were taken seriously, this would cost the Catholic church its tax exemption. But since we live in a virtual theocracy, almost no one has even heard about it.
If I were a Catholic Obama supporter, I would not put another dime in the collection plate until I heard an apology for this.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:46 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
In a world where laws were taken seriously, this would cost the Catholic church its tax exemption. But since we live in a virtual theocracy, almost no one has even heard about it.
If I were a Catholic Obama supporter, I would not put another dime in the collection plate until I heard an apology for this.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:46 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here is Kmiec's own account of being denied communion on BeliefNet. Makes your blood boil.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:48 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:48 AM on September 17, 2008
The same thing happened to Joe Biden, according to this NY Times article I read this morning. In that case, it was due to support for abortion rights.
But then his local bishop plunged into the fray, barring Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, from receiving communion in the area because of his support for abortion rights.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 9:05 AM on September 17, 2008
But then his local bishop plunged into the fray, barring Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, from receiving communion in the area because of his support for abortion rights.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 9:05 AM on September 17, 2008
McCain has mocked the Obama fundraiser that Barbra Streisand hosted last night in L.A. (forgetting that McCain was feted at a Hollywood fundraiser last month).
An oldy, but a prescient goody! -- McCain Sings Streisand [video | 02:40]
An oldy, but a prescient goody! -- McCain Sings Streisand [video | 02:40]
"I've been in politics for over 20 years, and for over 20 years I've had Barbra Streisand trying to do my job. So I've decided to try my hand at her job...My new CD is a must for all Barbra Streisand fans, as well as Log Cabin Republicans...A portion of all sales will be used to damage Alaskan Wildlife Preserves."posted by ericb at 9:12 AM on September 17, 2008
Palin credits electoral success to witchhunter
Actually I don't know how much communication across party lines is possible:
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:20 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, [...]This kind of crap just makes it harder to communicate across party lines
“And I'm thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are," she continued. "And he’s praying not 'oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,' no, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.'"[...]
In 1988, Pastor Muthee and his wife traveled to Kenya after being "called by God." Setting up shop in the basement of a grocery store, they claim to have brought 200 people "to God" and away from the town's "spiritual oppression."
The source of the oppression? Witchcraft, Muthee says. When researching the community, they found that a woman named "Mama Jane" ran a divination clinic that drew a large following in the town.
“We prayed, we fasted, the Lord showed us a spirit of witchcraft resting over the place,” Pastor Muthee said.
Actually I don't know how much communication across party lines is possible:
A new study out of Yale University confirms what argumentative liberals have long-known: Offering reality-based rebuttals to conservative lies only makes conservatives cling to those lies even harder[...] In a paper approaching publication, Nyhan, a PhD student at Duke University, and Reifler, at Georgia State University, suggest that Republicans might be especially prone to the backfire effect because conservatives may have more rigid views than liberalsDo I believe in this study? I'm reserving judgement until I see more evidence from further studies. However, it is hard to deny that when offered facts the immediate reaction of many Republicans is to a) ignore the facts offered, b) counter the facts with irrelevant arguments such as "Clinton did it too," and c) offer up anecdotal evidence as to why the facts are wrong.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:20 AM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
In a world where laws were taken seriously, this would cost the Catholic church its tax exemption.
I'd like it better if the church made its position loud and clear to all of its bishops, priests and followers. Dionne points out:
The priest's actions are almost certainly out of line with the policy of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. In their statement "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," issued last November, the bishops said: "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position."
Kmiec clearly wasn't basing his support of Obama on where he stood on abortion, therefore the priest had no basis to deny him eucharist.
I agree, more Catholic democrats do need to hear about this, because there is a groundswell of the wacky superconservative membership who (like some of their nondenominational counterparts) openly equate voting Democrat to sinning.
posted by contessa at 9:25 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'd like it better if the church made its position loud and clear to all of its bishops, priests and followers. Dionne points out:
The priest's actions are almost certainly out of line with the policy of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. In their statement "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," issued last November, the bishops said: "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position."
Kmiec clearly wasn't basing his support of Obama on where he stood on abortion, therefore the priest had no basis to deny him eucharist.
I agree, more Catholic democrats do need to hear about this, because there is a groundswell of the wacky superconservative membership who (like some of their nondenominational counterparts) openly equate voting Democrat to sinning.
posted by contessa at 9:25 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama smeared by Taheri on Iraq Troop Withdrawals; Journalist Notorious for False Story on Iranian Jews
posted by homunculus at 9:26 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by homunculus at 9:26 AM on September 17, 2008
Palin said she has smoked marijuana -- remember, it was legal under state law, she said, even if illegal under U.S. law -- but says she didn't like it and doesn't smoke it now.
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:31 AM on September 17, 2008
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:31 AM on September 17, 2008
Another doozy -- Despite Claims Today He Warned of this Crisis, McCain in December 2007 Said He Didn't See This Crisis Coming.
posted by ericb at 10:01 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by ericb at 10:01 AM on September 17, 2008
New Obama 2-minute ad about the economy -- it's good.
posted by ericb at 10:02 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by ericb at 10:02 AM on September 17, 2008
CNN Demolishes Every McCain Campaign Lie [video | 05:12].
posted by ericb at 10:09 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 10:09 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, is it possible that the choice of Palin is really meant to woo Catholics who otherwise might have seen little difference between McCain and Obama on the abortion issue? As noted upthread, I think, Catholics are about 25% of the electorate, far more than any other denomination, and yet I haven't seen the Palin choice characterized other than a sop to Evangelical protestants. This is especially likely since Catholics may be disproportionately represented in marginal states in the NE, Midwest and SW (Hispanics) whereas the evangelist base is strongest in Red states anyway.
posted by Rumple at 10:18 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by Rumple at 10:18 AM on September 17, 2008
Since December 2007 McCain has consistently claimed that our economy's fundamentals are strong.
Video of McCain: Our Economy’s “Fundamentals are Strong” (18 instances) [video | 02:33].
After watching that, I'm dizzy!
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Video of McCain: Our Economy’s “Fundamentals are Strong” (18 instances) [video | 02:33].
After watching that, I'm dizzy!
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, is it possible that the choice of Palin is really meant to woo Catholics who otherwise might have seen little difference between McCain and Obama on the abortion issue?
For what it's worth, Catholics are not quite the single-issue voters that evangelicals are. You've got some that vote anti-choice, or vote against gay marriage, to be sure, but then there are those driven by the principles of peace, i.e., anti-death penalty, anti-war. Their voting is as complex as their demographic - from working class Latinos to New England blue bloods - so it's not that easy to pin them down. The one consistency is, they vote for the winner. Catholics have supported the winners of the last nine presidential elections - five Republican and three Democratic presidents, and one popular-vote-winning but presidency-losing Democrat, Al Gore - so, pretty much a 5-4 split in slight favor with conservatives. Last November, bishops outlined a statement that more or less outlines "voting Catholic", Besides the church's rejection of abortion, the document asks that society help the most vulnerable, respect the rights of workers, support migrants, be peacemakers and care for the environment.
So McCain choosing a rabidly anti-choice running mate does not necessarily tip the Catholic vote in his favor - Catholic Hispanics tend to vote Democrat, and Obama and McCain are pretty much tied among white Catholics. Also, 41% of Catholics identify themselves as independents. Long story short: still way too soon to tell either way.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
For what it's worth, Catholics are not quite the single-issue voters that evangelicals are. You've got some that vote anti-choice, or vote against gay marriage, to be sure, but then there are those driven by the principles of peace, i.e., anti-death penalty, anti-war. Their voting is as complex as their demographic - from working class Latinos to New England blue bloods - so it's not that easy to pin them down. The one consistency is, they vote for the winner. Catholics have supported the winners of the last nine presidential elections - five Republican and three Democratic presidents, and one popular-vote-winning but presidency-losing Democrat, Al Gore - so, pretty much a 5-4 split in slight favor with conservatives. Last November, bishops outlined a statement that more or less outlines "voting Catholic", Besides the church's rejection of abortion, the document asks that society help the most vulnerable, respect the rights of workers, support migrants, be peacemakers and care for the environment.
So McCain choosing a rabidly anti-choice running mate does not necessarily tip the Catholic vote in his favor - Catholic Hispanics tend to vote Democrat, and Obama and McCain are pretty much tied among white Catholics. Also, 41% of Catholics identify themselves as independents. Long story short: still way too soon to tell either way.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
via Waxy: Sarah Palin's yahoo account hacked ; More info on WikiLeaks ; also on Reddit.
posted by chunking express at 10:55 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by chunking express at 10:55 AM on September 17, 2008
A good recent New Yorker piece dealing with the Catholic vote.
posted by Miko at 10:55 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by Miko at 10:55 AM on September 17, 2008
yuck:
LYNN FORESTER DE ROTHSCHILD, MEMBER OF DNC PLATFORM COMMITTEE, ENDORSES JOHN MCCAIN
ARLINGTON, VA -- Today the McCain-Palin campaign announced the endorsement of Lynn Forester de Rothschild, a prominent Hillary Clinton supporter and member of the Democratic National Committee's Platform Committee.
"In an election as important at this, we must choose the candidate who has a proven record of bipartisanship and reforming government, and that's John McCain," Rothschild said. "We can't afford a president who lacks experience and judgment and has never crossed party lines to work for meaningful reform. Amid tough economic times and foreign policy concerns, we need someone who is ready to lead. Although I am a Democrat, I recognize that it's more important to put country ahead of party and that's why I support John McCain."
Rothschild, an attorney and businesswoman, supported Sen. Clinton during the Democratic primaries. She will campaign for Sen. McCain through Election Day.
posted by Rumple at 10:57 AM on September 17, 2008
LYNN FORESTER DE ROTHSCHILD, MEMBER OF DNC PLATFORM COMMITTEE, ENDORSES JOHN MCCAIN
ARLINGTON, VA -- Today the McCain-Palin campaign announced the endorsement of Lynn Forester de Rothschild, a prominent Hillary Clinton supporter and member of the Democratic National Committee's Platform Committee.
"In an election as important at this, we must choose the candidate who has a proven record of bipartisanship and reforming government, and that's John McCain," Rothschild said. "We can't afford a president who lacks experience and judgment and has never crossed party lines to work for meaningful reform. Amid tough economic times and foreign policy concerns, we need someone who is ready to lead. Although I am a Democrat, I recognize that it's more important to put country ahead of party and that's why I support John McCain."
Rothschild, an attorney and businesswoman, supported Sen. Clinton during the Democratic primaries. She will campaign for Sen. McCain through Election Day.
posted by Rumple at 10:57 AM on September 17, 2008
I can accept that people don't have the same views as I do, but what mystifies/enrages me is the doublethink. When Richmond mayor/Virginia governor Tim Kaine was being considered as a running mate for Obama, Karl Rove said he wasn't qualified because Richmond was a small city and Virginia was a small state. Then they pick Palin and Rove says she's qualified. How do these ignorant motherfuckers' heads not explode from the cognitive dissonance?
McCain Mocks Obama Fundraiser, Doesn't Mention His Own. McCain had held two fundraisers this week when he criticized Obama.
Then charging for rape kits makes mavericky budget-balancing sense.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:58 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain has mocked the Obama fundraiser that Barbra Streisand hosted last night in L.A. (forgetting that McCain was feted at a Hollywood fundraiser last month).
McCain Mocks Obama Fundraiser, Doesn't Mention His Own. McCain had held two fundraisers this week when he criticized Obama.
Alaska is the Rape Capital of America
Then charging for rape kits makes mavericky budget-balancing sense.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:58 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin's yahoo account hacked
Holy shit.
There's a joke about Scientology in here, but I don't have the energy to make it right now.
posted by cortex at 11:03 AM on September 17, 2008
Holy shit.
There's a joke about Scientology in here, but I don't have the energy to make it right now.
posted by cortex at 11:03 AM on September 17, 2008
I have to say, the yahoo account getting hacked thing made my day. That may make me a bad person, but I'll have to live with that.
posted by 8dot3 at 11:07 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by 8dot3 at 11:07 AM on September 17, 2008
Sarah Palin's yahoo account hacked
I called it.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:10 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
I called it.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:10 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Just like a /b/tard, not getting all the data off before announcing. Someone competent would have never announced this until control of gov.sarah could be parlayed to compromise gov.palin, and a tarball of everything put on a server in Indonesia.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:12 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:12 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
And kudos to Bookhouse, who pondered the possibility of a hack 6 days ago.
posted by 8dot3 at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by 8dot3 at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2008
The other thing I'd add to the question about Palin wooing Catholics is the flip-side, at least from the evangelical POV: A large number of evangelicals are cool, if not outright hostile, towards Catholicism, which is regarded by many as only slightly better than Mormonism.
In spite of the relatively recent rise of the Evangelical Catholic, you'll find among the self-proclaimed "spirit-filled" Christians opinions on Catholics that range from "our misguided brothers in Christ" to "followers of a false faith." The worship of the Virgin, the canonization of saints, and the view of priest-as-communication-conduit-to-God are just three of the biggest issues that evangelicals have with Catholicism. (I can provide links to those assertions, if needed, but I really don't want to throw the traffic to the crazy folks that espouse such attitudes if I can help it.)
Anyway, knowing all that, I find it weird if the McCain campaign expected Palin to help win over the Catholic vote. I mean, there's definitely the common ground on the anti-abortion stance, obviously, but if I were Catholic and I knew that many churches similar to Palin's had only marginal (if that) respect for my faith? I'm not sure I'd be sold on the ticket.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:16 AM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
In spite of the relatively recent rise of the Evangelical Catholic, you'll find among the self-proclaimed "spirit-filled" Christians opinions on Catholics that range from "our misguided brothers in Christ" to "followers of a false faith." The worship of the Virgin, the canonization of saints, and the view of priest-as-communication-conduit-to-God are just three of the biggest issues that evangelicals have with Catholicism. (I can provide links to those assertions, if needed, but I really don't want to throw the traffic to the crazy folks that espouse such attitudes if I can help it.)
Anyway, knowing all that, I find it weird if the McCain campaign expected Palin to help win over the Catholic vote. I mean, there's definitely the common ground on the anti-abortion stance, obviously, but if I were Catholic and I knew that many churches similar to Palin's had only marginal (if that) respect for my faith? I'm not sure I'd be sold on the ticket.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:16 AM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
Lynn Forester de Rothschild in 2007: "I think if history is our guide, we've had stronger economies, more wealth creation, under Democratic presidents than we have under Republican presidents."
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:22 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:22 AM on September 17, 2008
LYNN FORESTER DE ROTHSCHILD, MEMBER OF DNC PLATFORM COMMITTEE, ENDORSES JOHN MCCAIN
That's Lady Lynn Forrester de Rothschild to you buddy. You know--wife of Sir Evelyn, mistress of Ascott House. The one who just called Barack Obama an "elitist."
posted by neroli at 11:26 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
That's Lady Lynn Forrester de Rothschild to you buddy. You know--wife of Sir Evelyn, mistress of Ascott House. The one who just called Barack Obama an "elitist."
posted by neroli at 11:26 AM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
Just like a /b/tard, not getting all the data off before announcing. Someone competent would have never announced this until control of gov.sarah could be parlayed to compromise gov.palin, and a tarball of everything put on a server in Indonesia.
Seriously, looks like some /b/tard had massive epic win on their hands and turned it right into epic fail. Just imagine: Anonymous taking down the McCain/Palin campaign, had there been something really good in there.
EPIC FAIL, /b/, EPIC FAIL.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:31 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Seriously, looks like some /b/tard had massive epic win on their hands and turned it right into epic fail. Just imagine: Anonymous taking down the McCain/Palin campaign, had there been something really good in there.
EPIC FAIL, /b/, EPIC FAIL.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:31 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
A good video by the Obama campaign on why you should give, give, give.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:33 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 11:33 AM on September 17, 2008
Yeah, it's kind of a waste/stupid that they hacked the account and publicized things before actually doing anything of use. Dumbaclots. This could have been a much more interesting story.
posted by chunking express at 11:34 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by chunking express at 11:34 AM on September 17, 2008
That's assuming the hack story is true, though it seems to be.
posted by chunking express at 11:43 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by chunking express at 11:43 AM on September 17, 2008
Who the f**k is /b/?
This would seem like either a brilliantly well-executed hoax of magnificent proportions but foul intent, or one of the great moments in internet history.
Wow. It's hard not to look at the stuff on wikileaks, but I am resisting. I need this confirmed by the NY Times or something before I'm gonna fall for something that smells so strongly of Rove.
Man is Alaska what it is. The governor uses a Yahoo email account? Can't wait til they find her Bebo page.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:47 AM on September 17, 2008
This would seem like either a brilliantly well-executed hoax of magnificent proportions but foul intent, or one of the great moments in internet history.
Wow. It's hard not to look at the stuff on wikileaks, but I am resisting. I need this confirmed by the NY Times or something before I'm gonna fall for something that smells so strongly of Rove.
Man is Alaska what it is. The governor uses a Yahoo email account? Can't wait til they find her Bebo page.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:47 AM on September 17, 2008
As requested, the memetic force of Miko's Ivy League Elitist list can now be experienced at Ivy League Elitists.
As mentioned in the MefiProjects post, any ad revenue from this will go to a recipient of Miko's choice.
posted by tomierna at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2008 [12 favorites]
As mentioned in the MefiProjects post, any ad revenue from this will go to a recipient of Miko's choice.
posted by tomierna at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2008 [12 favorites]
I mean, there's definitely the common ground on the anti-abortion stance, obviously, but if I were Catholic and I knew that many churches similar to Palin's had only marginal (if that) respect for my faith? I'm not sure I'd be sold on the ticket.
Yeah, Catholics tend to take umbrage when you liken the Pope to the Antichrist.
Also, there's this: Roman Catholics for Obama.
Yeah, Catholics tend to take umbrage when you liken the Pope to the Antichrist.
Also, there's this: Roman Catholics for Obama.
We hope you'll spend time reviewing all of the material housed or linked from here. But if you read just two documents, please make them the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship -- which explains why "[t]here may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other grave reasons" -- and Barack Obama's Blueprint for Change, which outlines all of Senator Obama's positions and is, we think, reflective of why he is the candidate whose views are most compatible with the Catholic outlook.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
On this website, we have collected and linked to documents from the Church and from Church authorities that reflect on the importance of civic participation motivated by all of the principles of Catholic Social Teaching: Life and Dignity of the Human Person; Call to Family, Community, and Participation; Rights and Responsibilities; Option for the Poor and Vulnerable; The Dignity of Work and the Rights of Workers; Solidarity; and Care for God's Creation.
Even though we do not agree with all of Senator Obama's positions, we believe that he is the best candidate for President. He is able to inspire and appeal not only to committed Democrats, but to independents and Republicans too. He has a way of bringing people together that can only help our country as well as our country's relationship with the rest of the world. We desperately need a President who will give voice to our better angels. Senator Obama resists succumbing to partisan or divisive rhetoric and will look for common ground in addressing some of the most pressing needs of our time -- among them alleviating poverty, protecting the environment, making peace and, we believe, creating a culture of life.
That's Lady Lynn Forrester de Rothschild to you buddy.
Is she technically a Lady? Bazillionaire Sir Evelyn Robert de Rothschild was married to second wife Victoria Lou Schott when he was knighted in 1989. He divorced in Schott in 2000 after twenty years of marriage and married Forrester - over twenty years his junior - in November of that same year, two years after they were introduced to one another by agent of Eros, Nixon crony, and all-round regular guy Henry Kissinger.
Do ex-wives have to hand the mantle of Lady over to the new wives? Are they called Ex-Ladies? Do they change the radio station when that Lyle Lovett song comes on? These are burning questions!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2008
Is she technically a Lady? Bazillionaire Sir Evelyn Robert de Rothschild was married to second wife Victoria Lou Schott when he was knighted in 1989. He divorced in Schott in 2000 after twenty years of marriage and married Forrester - over twenty years his junior - in November of that same year, two years after they were introduced to one another by agent of Eros, Nixon crony, and all-round regular guy Henry Kissinger.
Do ex-wives have to hand the mantle of Lady over to the new wives? Are they called Ex-Ladies? Do they change the radio station when that Lyle Lovett song comes on? These are burning questions!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2008
TED video: the moral roots of liberals and conservatives
posted by lysdexic at 11:50 AM on September 17, 2008
posted by lysdexic at 11:50 AM on September 17, 2008
Wired has the hacked Yahoo account story and appears to be confirming a bit.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2008
Hacking story to a new thread, say witnesses.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:12 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:12 PM on September 17, 2008
The caps from the Yahoo account don't strike me as particularly damning, or even interesting for that matter. They don't even jive with Anonymous' supposed prime directive of doing something "for the lulz" (I physically cringe to write the word "lulz"). Pretty boring stuff that doesn't really help or hurt. Unless agrieved Scientologists cast sympathy votes in her favor or something.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2008
Lies about lies
But you can't have an argument with people who play according to these rules. They enforce no code of decency upon themselves, and no one exists to enforce it. The "objective" media? Stop joking. They're powerless to stop it; all they really do, as NPR did this morning, is give more air time to the victim-playing about the lies about the lies.
posted by Artw at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2008
But you can't have an argument with people who play according to these rules. They enforce no code of decency upon themselves, and no one exists to enforce it. The "objective" media? Stop joking. They're powerless to stop it; all they really do, as NPR did this morning, is give more air time to the victim-playing about the lies about the lies.
posted by Artw at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2008
Sarah Palin's yahoo account hacked
When the hell is it that 4chan has become such a source of WTF news with regard to this kind? I mean Anonymous going after Scientologists, then /b/ supposedly gaining access to Palin's email?
Though I have to admit, it was kind of a "maverick" thing to do.
(I do fear the inevitable internet security theater that will undoubtedly follow if this is true.)
Who the f**k is /b/?
This.
posted by quin at 12:26 PM on September 17, 2008
When the hell is it that 4chan has become such a source of WTF news with regard to this kind? I mean Anonymous going after Scientologists, then /b/ supposedly gaining access to Palin's email?
Though I have to admit, it was kind of a "maverick" thing to do.
(I do fear the inevitable internet security theater that will undoubtedly follow if this is true.)
Who the f**k is /b/?
This.
posted by quin at 12:26 PM on September 17, 2008
Have the wheels come off the straight talk express?
Harry Reid rips the fenders off the Straight Talk Express [video | 03:47].
posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Harry Reid rips the fenders off the Straight Talk Express [video | 03:47].
posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Lady Lynn Forrester de Rothschild is going to support Thurston Howell III John Sidney McCain III because Barack Obama's an elitist? Boo hoo.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:24 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 2:24 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
fourcheesemac writes "Man is Alaska what it is. The governor uses a Yahoo email account? Can't wait til they find her Bebo page."
People in executive/management positions using weak ass public web mail systems is disturbingly common. Usually with easily hacked passwords to boot. I've had discussions on this so many times with said individuals that I've practically got a standard speech prepared. Including a counter to the inevitable whine that they don't like using the company's system because we make them change their password regularly and enforce strong passwords.
posted by Mitheral at 2:26 PM on September 17, 2008
People in executive/management positions using weak ass public web mail systems is disturbingly common. Usually with easily hacked passwords to boot. I've had discussions on this so many times with said individuals that I've practically got a standard speech prepared. Including a counter to the inevitable whine that they don't like using the company's system because we make them change their password regularly and enforce strong passwords.
posted by Mitheral at 2:26 PM on September 17, 2008
FWIW were I something to do with the obama campaign I wouldn't go near the yahoo thing with a long shitty stick.
posted by Artw at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
FWIW were I something to do with the obama campaign I wouldn't go near the yahoo thing with a long shitty stick...
And I bet they won't. They've stayed away from the discussion of the Palin kids, rumors, etc. The Obama camp is riding the high-road and focusing on McCain and the issues, as they should. Attack the McSame/Bush record, etc.
posted by ericb at 3:00 PM on September 17, 2008
And I bet they won't. They've stayed away from the discussion of the Palin kids, rumors, etc. The Obama camp is riding the high-road and focusing on McCain and the issues, as they should. Attack the McSame/Bush record, etc.
posted by ericb at 3:00 PM on September 17, 2008
Senate Democrat Raises Keating Five, Rips McCain On Economy, Palin
“One of the Senate's most progressive members ripped John McCain on Tuesday for offering a phony populist self-portrayal in the wake of the current crisis in the financial markets. In the process, Sherrod Brown of Ohio raised the Republican nominee's involvement in the Keating Five scandal as evidence that voters couldn't trust McCain's record on both the economy and ethics.posted by ericb at 3:12 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
‘It is not so much his economic proposals but his economic record,’ Brown said of McCain. ‘His main adviser is Phil Gramm -- he was his mentor in the Senate -- and you just tie it all together. Of course John McCain supported the oil industry, he has oil lobbyists working for him. Of course John McCain supported these trade agreements, he has got Wall Street people working for him... It is all wrapped up together. John McCain is a creature of these interest groups in Washington. He is no maverick and, from the Keating Five on, his ethics have been questionable. He's not a maverick and Barack has got to just keep hammering on that.’”
White House won’t side with McCain on ‘fundamentals’ of economy being ’strong.’
posted by ericb at 3:15 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 3:15 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Huge Voter Protection Effort To Be Launched Today
posted by homunculus at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
McCain Makes Sharp Right Turn on Stem Cells
IIRC They've previously accused Biden of being a liar when he said they'd limit stem cell research.
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on September 17, 2008
IIRC They've previously accused Biden of being a liar when he said they'd limit stem cell research.
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on September 17, 2008
But I fail to see why that makes them more honorable, dignified, or more sincere than people who live in the city. What it does make them (often, not always) is intolerant of other lifestyles
So you get to be intolerant of theirs?
I hope, while you are educating your children about art and culture, you are also teaching them how to be good human beings. Which would include not being snobs.
posted by konolia at 3:58 PM on September 17, 2008
So you get to be intolerant of theirs?
I hope, while you are educating your children about art and culture, you are also teaching them how to be good human beings. Which would include not being snobs.
posted by konolia at 3:58 PM on September 17, 2008
Small town Americans == SAINTS! or you are a snob.
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh for pete's sake, konolia. How is esteeming small-town life as some sort of mythic Mayberryesque bubble of morality over life in the big cold cities any less snobbish than what you just quoted?
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:18 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:18 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Tolerating intolerance is not a virtue; despising intolerance is not snobbish. Intolerance is not a "lifestyle"; it's a character flaw.
posted by nicwolff at 4:19 PM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 4:19 PM on September 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
I hope, while you are educating your children about art and culture, you are also teaching them how to be good human beings. Which would include not being snobs.
I'd say you're treading on extremely thin ice with this self-righteous proclamation of yours regarding how people may or may not be raising their own children to be good human beings, and I'd strongly suggesting backing up off of this train of thought.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:22 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'd say you're treading on extremely thin ice with this self-righteous proclamation of yours regarding how people may or may not be raising their own children to be good human beings, and I'd strongly suggesting backing up off of this train of thought.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:22 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
"strongly suggest" of course
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:28 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:28 PM on September 17, 2008
If Senator McCain's experience as a POW 40 years ago counts in his favor, than his Keating Five involvement 20 years ago should count against him. In light of this week's events on Wall Street it's interesting that "Keating had made contributions of about $1.3 million to various U.S. Senators, and he called on those Senators to help him resist regulators."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:29 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 4:29 PM on September 17, 2008
I hope, while you are educating your children about art and culture, you are also teaching them how to be good human beings. Which would include not being snobs.
I'd say you're treading on extremely thin ice with this self-righteous proclamation of yours regarding how people may or may not be raising their own children to be good human beings, and I'd strongly suggesting backing up off of this train of thought.
No, I don't think so.
See, although I myself enjoy art and music and "culture" I understand that in some sense these are personal preferences. My parents certainly didn't raise me to appreciate art-now, they did have an awesome LP of Rhapsody In Blue that I played over and over and over again as a child, but I was not raised to "be cultured."
I think that it is far too easy to talk about how boring and obnoxious a small town is (even one fifteen minutes away from Art and Culture) without realizing that there are other values that are even more important to expose one's young to. Values like looking after each other (neighbors in small towns are really good at that.) Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up." Now, to bring it back more to what this thread is talking about, you have a whole subset of Americans who are openly showing their disdain for a whole other subset of Americans-simply by virtue of the fact the first group feels superior. Well, depending on what you use for a measuring stick, in some ways group one could be characterized as "better." But what Group One is missing is that in the eyes of Group Two, they have shown themselves to be arrogant, snobbish, and totally lacking in basic decency.
If you are trying to persuade Group Two that they need to vote for Group One's candidate, this leads to Major Fail.
posted by konolia at 4:51 PM on September 17, 2008
I'd say you're treading on extremely thin ice with this self-righteous proclamation of yours regarding how people may or may not be raising their own children to be good human beings, and I'd strongly suggesting backing up off of this train of thought.
No, I don't think so.
See, although I myself enjoy art and music and "culture" I understand that in some sense these are personal preferences. My parents certainly didn't raise me to appreciate art-now, they did have an awesome LP of Rhapsody In Blue that I played over and over and over again as a child, but I was not raised to "be cultured."
I think that it is far too easy to talk about how boring and obnoxious a small town is (even one fifteen minutes away from Art and Culture) without realizing that there are other values that are even more important to expose one's young to. Values like looking after each other (neighbors in small towns are really good at that.) Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up." Now, to bring it back more to what this thread is talking about, you have a whole subset of Americans who are openly showing their disdain for a whole other subset of Americans-simply by virtue of the fact the first group feels superior. Well, depending on what you use for a measuring stick, in some ways group one could be characterized as "better." But what Group One is missing is that in the eyes of Group Two, they have shown themselves to be arrogant, snobbish, and totally lacking in basic decency.
If you are trying to persuade Group Two that they need to vote for Group One's candidate, this leads to Major Fail.
posted by konolia at 4:51 PM on September 17, 2008
Would one of those groups wear $300,000 outfits and $500 shoes, have so many houses they can't keep track of them, and take nine-car motorcades to Starbucks?
How about values like not lying? Almost every qualification Sarah Palin has presented is a lie. She's lying in the job interview. Shouldn't that disqualify her? (I documented the leading examples in the other thread, and you ducked the issue.)
It'd be interesting to revisit his involvement with Vicki Iseman. McCain lucked out when people focused on the allegations of an affair, which were pretty sketchy, and ignored the pretty clear evidence that he acted improperly on her behalf.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
there are other values that are even more important to expose one's young to
How about values like not lying? Almost every qualification Sarah Palin has presented is a lie. She's lying in the job interview. Shouldn't that disqualify her? (I documented the leading examples in the other thread, and you ducked the issue.)
Keating 5 corruption
It'd be interesting to revisit his involvement with Vicki Iseman. McCain lucked out when people focused on the allegations of an affair, which were pretty sketchy, and ignored the pretty clear evidence that he acted improperly on her behalf.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
Values like not posing false dichotomies. Values like not insuating the possibility that anyone here would not teach their children to be decent human beings. That should be a given to you, and I'd hope you'd offer the sort of respect that most people have been bending over backwards to give you here.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:03 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
Values like not posing false dichotomies. Values like not insuating the possibility that anyone here would not teach their children to be decent human beings. That should be a given to you, and I'd hope you'd offer the sort of respect that most people have been bending over backwards to give you here.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:03 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
Would one of those groups wear $300,000 outfits and $500 shoes...
That was Cindy McCain's convention outfit.
And now we have Sarah Palin's -- Hockey mom outfit worth $2,500 -- just for the top. Regular small-town Mom!
posted by ericb at 5:07 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
That was Cindy McCain's convention outfit.
And now we have Sarah Palin's -- Hockey mom outfit worth $2,500 -- just for the top. Regular small-town Mom!
posted by ericb at 5:07 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
But what Group One is missing is that in the eyes of Group Two, they have shown themselves to be arrogant, snobbish, and totally lacking in basic decency. If you are trying to persuade Group Two that they need to vote for Group One's candidate, this leads to Major Fail.
Seriously, either group could be group one and two here depending which outraged costituency you represent. There are better ways to explain why you think your side is right and the other side is wrong. I love my small town, but it's also full of child rapists. Nothing is perfect.
posted by jessamyn at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
Seriously, either group could be group one and two here depending which outraged costituency you represent. There are better ways to explain why you think your side is right and the other side is wrong. I love my small town, but it's also full of child rapists. Nothing is perfect.
posted by jessamyn at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]
I don't believe you can consider yourself to live in a small town if you are within fifteen minutes drive of a big city. You are in a suburb of the big city, is what you are.
In fifteen minutes, you can walk across my town.
Oddly, though, we have an art gallery, two live theatres, a couple arenas, music in the parks, etcetera. It's not exactly a cultural dead zone... and it's not like Art and Culture are the be-all and end-all: we have world-class nordic and alpine skiing within a half-hour drive, a humongous lake for sailing, endless hiking and biking trails, a half-dozen world-reknown golf courses. All things that you pretty much don't get in a big city.
One of the values I like in my small town is "ain't nobodies business if you do." We don't have pinheads trying to stop people from marrying, having sex, smoking dope, whatever. That's probably more of a Canadian cultural thing than a small town thing, though...
posted by five fresh fish at 5:09 PM on September 17, 2008
In fifteen minutes, you can walk across my town.
Oddly, though, we have an art gallery, two live theatres, a couple arenas, music in the parks, etcetera. It's not exactly a cultural dead zone... and it's not like Art and Culture are the be-all and end-all: we have world-class nordic and alpine skiing within a half-hour drive, a humongous lake for sailing, endless hiking and biking trails, a half-dozen world-reknown golf courses. All things that you pretty much don't get in a big city.
One of the values I like in my small town is "ain't nobodies business if you do." We don't have pinheads trying to stop people from marrying, having sex, smoking dope, whatever. That's probably more of a Canadian cultural thing than a small town thing, though...
posted by five fresh fish at 5:09 PM on September 17, 2008
Which would include not being snobs.
Can you please define "snob" for us?
posted by ericb at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2008
Can you please define "snob" for us?
posted by ericb at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2008
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up."
Gosh, that could be a euphamism for so many things.
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2008
Gosh, that could be a euphamism for so many things.
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2008
I think that it is far too easy to talk about how boring and obnoxious a small town is (even one fifteen minutes away from Art and Culture) without realizing that there are other values that are even more important to expose one's young to. Values like looking after each other (neighbors in small towns are really good at that.) Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
I've lived in small towns, and big cities. I've gotten treated well - and poorly - in both.
None of the things you mentioned are specific to small towns, or found in every small town. For every idyllic Mayberry, there's a meth-crazy Wasilla. And insularity is not a virtue - ever.
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up."
Or being different.
Now, to bring it back more to what this thread is talking about, you have a whole subset of Americans who are openly showing their disdain for a whole other subset of Americans-simply by virtue of the fact the first group feels superior.
I think that insularity, unwillingness to acknowledge reality, willingness to make other people behave the way you think they should - those things are worthy of my disdain. I don't care where you live. Those things should be worthy of your disdain too, but instead you embrace them and call them "small-town values." That's bullshit.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2008 [6 favorites]
I've lived in small towns, and big cities. I've gotten treated well - and poorly - in both.
None of the things you mentioned are specific to small towns, or found in every small town. For every idyllic Mayberry, there's a meth-crazy Wasilla. And insularity is not a virtue - ever.
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up."
Or being different.
Now, to bring it back more to what this thread is talking about, you have a whole subset of Americans who are openly showing their disdain for a whole other subset of Americans-simply by virtue of the fact the first group feels superior.
I think that insularity, unwillingness to acknowledge reality, willingness to make other people behave the way you think they should - those things are worthy of my disdain. I don't care where you live. Those things should be worthy of your disdain too, but instead you embrace them and call them "small-town values." That's bullshit.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2008 [6 favorites]
Values like looking after each other (neighbors in small towns are really good at that.) Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
Defines the small town/village where I grew up in Connecticut.
posted by ericb at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2008
Defines the small town/village where I grew up in Connecticut.
posted by ericb at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2008
Now, to bring it back more to what this thread is talking about, you have a whole subset of Americans who are openly showing their disdain for a whole other subset of Americans-simply by virtue of the fact the first group feels superior.
In what way do you feel "inferior?" In what way do the "others" appear superior to you? The fact that they back up their arguments/statements with facts? Or, what?
posted by ericb at 5:13 PM on September 17, 2008
In what way do you feel "inferior?" In what way do the "others" appear superior to you? The fact that they back up their arguments/statements with facts? Or, what?
posted by ericb at 5:13 PM on September 17, 2008
fff: What is the name of your town so I can move there one day (especially if McCain wins)?
posted by brain cloud at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by brain cloud at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2008
I love my small town, but it's also full of child rapists.
Okay, that was not the second part of that sentence that I was expecting. "But the movie theater isn't very good," maybe, or "but it's hard to find a salsa-dancing partner." I did not see "but it's also full of child rapists" coming.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:40 PM on September 17, 2008 [7 favorites]
Okay, that was not the second part of that sentence that I was expecting. "But the movie theater isn't very good," maybe, or "but it's hard to find a salsa-dancing partner." I did not see "but it's also full of child rapists" coming.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:40 PM on September 17, 2008 [7 favorites]
Alaska senator accused of causing flight ruckus
State legislator kept texting, threw water when refused alcohol, police say
They're all mavericks in Alaska!
posted by lukemeister at 5:45 PM on September 17, 2008
State legislator kept texting, threw water when refused alcohol, police say
They're all mavericks in Alaska!
posted by lukemeister at 5:45 PM on September 17, 2008
brain cloud,
Sadly, fff has already closed applications for Canadian refugee status.
posted by lukemeister at 5:51 PM on September 17, 2008
Sadly, fff has already closed applications for Canadian refugee status.
posted by lukemeister at 5:51 PM on September 17, 2008
If you are trying to persuade Group Two that they need to vote for Group One's candidate, this leads to Major Fail.
I think it's helpful to understand that for some of us, "changing your vote" isn't the goal. There is value in the discourse. It motivates us to take part in the process. It distracts us about our worries about an uncertain future. Some of us hate the echo chamber and find too much agreement lulls us into intellectual slumber. I personally find arguing about politics to be fun.
I also trulywant to understand things that aren't readily obvious to me. When I ask a republican "How can you vote republican after the past 8 years of malfeasance?" I'm not attacking his beliefs, I REALLY want to know.
In this election especially there really is an aspect of uncertainty on both sides that whoever wins may not be able to get us out of this mess. If someone on the other side sees some light at the end of the tunnel, i wanna see it too.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:52 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think it's helpful to understand that for some of us, "changing your vote" isn't the goal. There is value in the discourse. It motivates us to take part in the process. It distracts us about our worries about an uncertain future. Some of us hate the echo chamber and find too much agreement lulls us into intellectual slumber. I personally find arguing about politics to be fun.
I also trulywant to understand things that aren't readily obvious to me. When I ask a republican "How can you vote republican after the past 8 years of malfeasance?" I'm not attacking his beliefs, I REALLY want to know.
In this election especially there really is an aspect of uncertainty on both sides that whoever wins may not be able to get us out of this mess. If someone on the other side sees some light at the end of the tunnel, i wanna see it too.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:52 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
In this election especially there really is an aspect of uncertainty on both sides that whoever wins may not be able to get us out of this mess. If someone on the other side sees some light at the end of the tunnel, i wanna see it too.
I can appreciate this sentiment, and I want you to know that I emphatically agree with discourse between right and left. But the "Group 1 and Group 2" being posed by konolia here are the good, honest, small-town folk who raise their children to be decent human beings, and the big-city arts-and-culture snobs who may or may not teach their children to be good people - caricaturesque, mean-spirited and inaccurate depictions that simultaneously insult both rural and urban alike. Remember, in Konolialand, rural people don't care about the arts, and anyone who shows an interest in culture might be of weak moral fibre. In other words, you might be wasting your time with this particular conservative if honest and engaging discourse is what you're after.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:03 PM on September 17, 2008
I can appreciate this sentiment, and I want you to know that I emphatically agree with discourse between right and left. But the "Group 1 and Group 2" being posed by konolia here are the good, honest, small-town folk who raise their children to be decent human beings, and the big-city arts-and-culture snobs who may or may not teach their children to be good people - caricaturesque, mean-spirited and inaccurate depictions that simultaneously insult both rural and urban alike. Remember, in Konolialand, rural people don't care about the arts, and anyone who shows an interest in culture might be of weak moral fibre. In other words, you might be wasting your time with this particular conservative if honest and engaging discourse is what you're after.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:03 PM on September 17, 2008
Regular small-town Mom!
Oh, forgot to mention that Sarah and Todd Palin own three houses and have their own private sea-plane.
posted by ericb at 6:06 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, forgot to mention that Sarah and Todd Palin own three houses and have their own private sea-plane.
posted by ericb at 6:06 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Poll: McCain struggles with Bush link -- "NYT: John McCain is seen by voters as far less likely to bring change than Barack Obama."
posted by ericb at 6:07 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 6:07 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
NYT: John McCain is seen by voters as far less likely to bring change than Barack Obama.
Yeah, he lets Cindy handle the finances. McCain never was a good tipper anyway.
posted by lukemeister at 6:09 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Yeah, he lets Cindy handle the finances. McCain never was a good tipper anyway.
posted by lukemeister at 6:09 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh hi, looks like the Palin bubble burst - the gap between McCain and Obama, which saw McCain surge temporarily forward since the RNC and has been steadily shrinking since, has officially closed at the time of this posting according to data compiled from numerous nationwide polls.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:14 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:14 PM on September 17, 2008
...anyone who shows an interest in culture might be of weak moral fibre...
And most likely gay and/or "cosmopolitan," as Rudy Giuliani sneered and flapped his wrists during his speech at the RNC Convention.
posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on September 17, 2008
And most likely gay and/or "cosmopolitan," as Rudy Giuliani sneered and flapped his wrists during his speech at the RNC Convention.
posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on September 17, 2008
First of all let's get this whole definition thing out of the way. When my town, Garner, was incorporated 102 years ago it certainly was not a suburb of Raleigh. It was a small town with its own train station and its own Main street and its own businesses-- mostly agriculture and rock quarries. I won't deny that with the increasing sprawl of the Triangle (Raleigh-Chapel Hill-Durham) we are becoming more of a bedroom community as are all the other small towns in the area: Clayton, Fuquay-Varina, Holly Springs. In point of fact a suburb can be defined as:
This whole "small town" discussion arose because the Republicans chose to make it a theme of their convention. To hear Rudy Guliani, former mayor of the greatest city in the world, sneer out the word "cosmopolitan" was one of the strangest moments in politics that I can recall. And then Palin followed that up with "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity." Some of us felt like "small town America" was not the be all, end all of perfection. So the question arises, do people in the cities not have honesty, sincerity and dignity? Is there something about small towns that makes them the bastions of dignity? Are small towns inherently better? Sounds like Five Fresh Fish lucked out with his small town, on the other hand Sarah Palin once thought that Wasilla was lacking in a few areas:
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:37 PM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
Town or unincorporated developed area close to a city. Suburbs, since they are largely residential, are usually dependent on a city for employment and support services and are generally characterized by low-density development relative to the city. However, considerable industrial development has occurred in many suburbs so that their dependency on a city has been reduced.While the train doesn't stop here anymore, we still have our own police force, and several large businesses. For example, not far from where I live they produce Slim Jims (on Jones Sausage Road) and when you drive by you can smell em.
This whole "small town" discussion arose because the Republicans chose to make it a theme of their convention. To hear Rudy Guliani, former mayor of the greatest city in the world, sneer out the word "cosmopolitan" was one of the strangest moments in politics that I can recall. And then Palin followed that up with "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity." Some of us felt like "small town America" was not the be all, end all of perfection. So the question arises, do people in the cities not have honesty, sincerity and dignity? Is there something about small towns that makes them the bastions of dignity? Are small towns inherently better? Sounds like Five Fresh Fish lucked out with his small town, on the other hand Sarah Palin once thought that Wasilla was lacking in a few areas:
"Sarah Palin, a commercial fisherman from Wasilla, told her husband on Tuesday she was driving to Anchorage to shop at Costco. Instead, she headed straight for Ivana. And there, at J.C. Penney's cosmetic department, was Ivana, the former Mrs. Donald Trump, sitting at a table next to a photograph of herself. She wore a light-colored pantsuit and pink fingernail polish. Her blonde hair was coiffed in a bouffant French twist. 'We want to see Ivana,' said Palin, who admittedly smells like salmon for a large part of the summer, 'because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture.' <>
And Konolia the number one most important trait I have tried to impress on my daughter is empathy. Far from being a snob and looking down her nose at people different from herself, she embraces people who are gay or ugly or poor or Latino or religious or disadvantaged. If she doesn't become a kindergarten teacher, I hope she will think about social services because she would be very good at it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:37 PM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]
Values like treating people right. Values like 'remembering where you came from.'
I remember where I came from. I grew up outside Clifton, Virginia (pop. 85). As a kid I spent the summers on my grandparents' farm outside Mountain Grove, Missouri (pop. 4,574), where my dad was from (mom's from Harville, Missouri, which is so small it doesn't rate a Wikipedia page). I went to college in Fairfax, Virginia (pop. 22,407), then I lived in Chapel Hill, North Carolina (pop. 54,492). Then I moved to San Francisco (which is a small "big city," pop. 764,976) and get to see people from small towns in red states slur me and my neighbors with slanders and stereotypes. I remember where I came from, all right.
I learned about treating people right at Vacation Bible School in Mountain Grove. I learned that Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." John McCain, the guy you're supporting for president, laughed it up with President Bush while people drowned in the streets of New Orleans. The party you support mocked Barrack Obama for turning his back on a Wall Street fortune so he could go door-to-door in the bad parts of Chicago and try to make people's lives better. John McCain, the adulterer you're supporting for president, dumped the wife who stood by him while he was a POW for a younger woman. Sarah Palin, the hypocrite you're supporting for vice president, gave her daughter a choice she wants to deny to other women, charged rape victims for rape kits and forensic exams. That doesn't seem like treating people right to me.
And most likely gay and/or 'cosmopolitan,' as Rudy Giuliani sneered and flapped his wrists during his speech at the RNC Convention.
Leave it to a cross-dressing guy with gay roommates to mock others for being "cosmopolitan."
posted by kirkaracha at 6:44 PM on September 17, 2008 [20 favorites]
In other words, you might be wasting your time with this particular conservative if honest and engaging discourse is what you're after.
Oh, I know...It's pretty much like a bizarro world version of this old bloom county comic at this point.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:48 PM on September 17, 2008
Oh, I know...It's pretty much like a bizarro world version of this old bloom county comic at this point.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:48 PM on September 17, 2008
But the "Group 1 and Group 2" being posed by konolia here are the good, honest, small-town folk who raise their children to be decent human beings, and the big-city arts-and-culture snobs who may or may not teach their children to be good people - caricaturesque, mean-spirited and inaccurate depictions that simultaneously insult both rural and urban alike. Remember, in Konolialand, rural people don't care about the arts, and anyone who shows an interest in culture might be of weak moral fibre. In other words, you might be wasting your time with this particular conservative if honest and engaging discourse is what you're after.
That's not what I wrote.
What I wrote had to do with people who felt that just because THEY like art and dance and theater, that they are superior to people that don't. And that people who do that might consider that people who aren't into the arts but who ARE polite and decent might be worthy of more respect than the arts and croissant crowd who are rude and look down their noses at the Nascar crowd. And of course, there are polite folks in the arts and croIssant crowd, but these are not the folks I am presently discussing.
And please, do, recall that I myself LIKE art and dance and music and croissants and the occasional glass of white wine. Even though I was raised by people who like Nascar.
Let me point out that stereotypes in general sometimes have grains of truth in them but often are simply functions of prejudice and lazy thinking. I have seen quite a number of comments in this thread that were demeaning and hateful towards certain types of people. Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories. And a lot of them (unBiblical as it is) are the kind to hold grudges and hold them a long time. Those are not the folks that I as a politician or as a supporter of a politician would want to piss off (in the American sense of the phrase.)
posted by konolia at 6:52 PM on September 17, 2008
That's not what I wrote.
What I wrote had to do with people who felt that just because THEY like art and dance and theater, that they are superior to people that don't. And that people who do that might consider that people who aren't into the arts but who ARE polite and decent might be worthy of more respect than the arts and croissant crowd who are rude and look down their noses at the Nascar crowd. And of course, there are polite folks in the arts and croIssant crowd, but these are not the folks I am presently discussing.
And please, do, recall that I myself LIKE art and dance and music and croissants and the occasional glass of white wine. Even though I was raised by people who like Nascar.
Let me point out that stereotypes in general sometimes have grains of truth in them but often are simply functions of prejudice and lazy thinking. I have seen quite a number of comments in this thread that were demeaning and hateful towards certain types of people. Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories. And a lot of them (unBiblical as it is) are the kind to hold grudges and hold them a long time. Those are not the folks that I as a politician or as a supporter of a politician would want to piss off (in the American sense of the phrase.)
posted by konolia at 6:52 PM on September 17, 2008
Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories.
Yet they still voted for the current administration twice.
You're right. we shouldn't be looking down on these people. Irony at that level deserves NEA grants.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:12 PM on September 17, 2008
Yet they still voted for the current administration twice.
You're right. we shouldn't be looking down on these people. Irony at that level deserves NEA grants.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:12 PM on September 17, 2008
XQUZYPHYR,
Wow, I had given McCain the benefit of the doubt, thinking he was mad about the Spanish troop withdrawals from Iraq, but now I see it's just Zapatero, Zapatista, whatever...
posted by lukemeister at 7:57 PM on September 17, 2008
Wow, I had given McCain the benefit of the doubt, thinking he was mad about the Spanish troop withdrawals from Iraq, but now I see it's just Zapatero, Zapatista, whatever...
posted by lukemeister at 7:57 PM on September 17, 2008
Distraction Alert. You Know It's Coming.
"Given the current state of the McCain/Palin campaign (it's crashing) -- and the horrible state of the economy (it's crashing) -- you have to know some major distraction is in the pipeline from the GOP. McCain has to do something to change the subject. So, expect some vintage Rovian trick. But, this one will have to be extra ugly...In any case, possibly as soon as tomorrow, McCain's going into Red Alert distraction mode. You've been warned."posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on September 17, 2008
LYNN FORESTER DE ROTHSCHILD, MEMBER OF DNC PLATFORM COMMITTEE, ENDORSES JOHN MCCAIN
New McCain Royalty Surrogate, Her Royal Highness Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild, Calls Voters "Rednecks"
New McCain Royalty Surrogate, Her Royal Highness Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild, Calls Voters "Rednecks"
posted by ericb at 8:16 PM on September 17, 2008 [2 favorites]'The people out, you know, who are the rednecks or whoever, are bitter.'Ah yes, nothing shows that John McCain understands the plight of working Americans like a woman with a royal title and $100 million referring to American voters as 'rednecks' in the middle of an economic crisis." [video | 00:15].
- McCain surrogate Her Royal Highness Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild, CNN, 9/17/08
I've lived in small towns and big cities. There are wonderful people and heinous assholes in both small towns and big cities. Small towns offer many advantages in quality of life. So do big cities.
Let's remember that this election isn't about who's better, small towns or big cities. We're all Americans, and most of us will experience both positive and negative aspects of both environments in some way or another. We have many bigger fish to fry. It's another false division, meant to draw us away from identifying common goals and interests.
Palin's weakness is not that she comes from a small town, nor is it a strength. It is a valid experience, but not a particularly impressive one. As governor, she represents more people, but her time in office is so short that she really hasn't accumulated much seasoning or even had to contend for a re-election (which is doubtful that she'd win, given what Alaskans are saying about her). It's fine experience to start with, but even small-town Harry Truman picked up some leadership practice during 14 years in the National Guard and reserves and as captain of an artillery corps in World War I France, and served two Senate terms before he had the temerity to accept the veep nomination. Another 14 years in local office preceded his two Senate terms. His small-town background may have given him a particularly helpful outlook and rapport with many voters; but I'd wager that the wisdom gained from all those long years of public service gave him a lot more, and what's more, may have improved his skill at working with people whose backgrounds diverged from his own.
Again, let's pull the identity issues out of this. No one is going to tell anyone else where to live. The question at hand is whether another four years of the Bush trajectory will leave anyone's small town or big city in any kind of shape to support its residents, educate its students, pay its bills, bring home its soldiers, keep its hospital doors open and police on the beats.
posted by Miko at 8:19 PM on September 17, 2008 [6 favorites]
Let's remember that this election isn't about who's better, small towns or big cities. We're all Americans, and most of us will experience both positive and negative aspects of both environments in some way or another. We have many bigger fish to fry. It's another false division, meant to draw us away from identifying common goals and interests.
Palin's weakness is not that she comes from a small town, nor is it a strength. It is a valid experience, but not a particularly impressive one. As governor, she represents more people, but her time in office is so short that she really hasn't accumulated much seasoning or even had to contend for a re-election (which is doubtful that she'd win, given what Alaskans are saying about her). It's fine experience to start with, but even small-town Harry Truman picked up some leadership practice during 14 years in the National Guard and reserves and as captain of an artillery corps in World War I France, and served two Senate terms before he had the temerity to accept the veep nomination. Another 14 years in local office preceded his two Senate terms. His small-town background may have given him a particularly helpful outlook and rapport with many voters; but I'd wager that the wisdom gained from all those long years of public service gave him a lot more, and what's more, may have improved his skill at working with people whose backgrounds diverged from his own.
Again, let's pull the identity issues out of this. No one is going to tell anyone else where to live. The question at hand is whether another four years of the Bush trajectory will leave anyone's small town or big city in any kind of shape to support its residents, educate its students, pay its bills, bring home its soldiers, keep its hospital doors open and police on the beats.
posted by Miko at 8:19 PM on September 17, 2008 [6 favorites]
In small towns, the cardinal sin is "being stuck-up."
Yep...and Bristol Palin is expecting a child after having been "stuck up" unprotected by Levi Johnston -- a babby formed out of wedlock!
posted by ericb at 8:24 PM on September 17, 2008
Yep...and Bristol Palin is expecting a child after having been "stuck up" unprotected by Levi Johnston -- a babby formed out of wedlock!
posted by ericb at 8:24 PM on September 17, 2008
Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories.
Yet they still voted for the current administration twice.
Seriously. These ... people, politicians, they do not respect you. All of you. John McCain and George W. Bush don't give two shits about the lives of fetuses. If it was possible to press a button and reveal their heart of hearts I'd lay down a bet that they're pretty solid atheists/agnostics. Illegal immigration? They're stealing our jobs? They love when illegal immigrants "steal" jobs from Americans, because that's more money to them and less money spent due to those pesky minimum wage and other regulations.
But they'll use these things. Talk about outlawing abortion, enacting abstinence-only sex ed. Actually enact these policies or not? Doesn't matter too much. Their kids will be taught to use a condom and, should it be necessary, will be able to receive a safe abortion, legal or not. Their homes will be cleaned by illegal immigrants, though in the off chance they're caught they certainly had no idea at all that there was any irregularity. The troops? "Support the troops" means "support the war." Ain't none of them doing jack shit to actually provide for the troops - they're getting electrocuted in the showers because decent electrical work isn't even being paid for and veterans are getting the short end of the stick just like always.
Your Democrats aren't much better, though. Right now Barack Obama is hocking a FIRST EDITION Obama-Biden car magnet. I eagerly await the Obama-Biden limited edition collectible decorative plate for only 3 easy installments of whatever.99. Obama has a pretty face, so let's plaster it all over the damn place. Hey, let's do a gimmick of saying we'll announce the VP with SMS so now we have everyone signed up for text message spam. He should have a record, if not jail time, for weed and coke, but he doesn't solely because he wasn't caught. I'd love to see him either state that he'd be better off with an arrest record or admit that he's a hypocrite. The best possibility I see from Obama is that he's playing these games, he's treating the populace in manipulative fashions and with bullshit, with some paternal or patronizing interest in sullying himself with this bullshit while still planning to act righteously, in the best interests of the people, once he's president. That one I'll buy when I see it.
These people are not on your side.
Sarah Palin is an interesting case. McCain and the Republicans played to these things so much that it looks like he ended up stuck with someone who it seems actually believes in them. I bet John McCain hates Sarah Palin's guts.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:30 PM on September 17, 2008
Yet they still voted for the current administration twice.
Seriously. These ... people, politicians, they do not respect you. All of you. John McCain and George W. Bush don't give two shits about the lives of fetuses. If it was possible to press a button and reveal their heart of hearts I'd lay down a bet that they're pretty solid atheists/agnostics. Illegal immigration? They're stealing our jobs? They love when illegal immigrants "steal" jobs from Americans, because that's more money to them and less money spent due to those pesky minimum wage and other regulations.
But they'll use these things. Talk about outlawing abortion, enacting abstinence-only sex ed. Actually enact these policies or not? Doesn't matter too much. Their kids will be taught to use a condom and, should it be necessary, will be able to receive a safe abortion, legal or not. Their homes will be cleaned by illegal immigrants, though in the off chance they're caught they certainly had no idea at all that there was any irregularity. The troops? "Support the troops" means "support the war." Ain't none of them doing jack shit to actually provide for the troops - they're getting electrocuted in the showers because decent electrical work isn't even being paid for and veterans are getting the short end of the stick just like always.
Your Democrats aren't much better, though. Right now Barack Obama is hocking a FIRST EDITION Obama-Biden car magnet. I eagerly await the Obama-Biden limited edition collectible decorative plate for only 3 easy installments of whatever.99. Obama has a pretty face, so let's plaster it all over the damn place. Hey, let's do a gimmick of saying we'll announce the VP with SMS so now we have everyone signed up for text message spam. He should have a record, if not jail time, for weed and coke, but he doesn't solely because he wasn't caught. I'd love to see him either state that he'd be better off with an arrest record or admit that he's a hypocrite. The best possibility I see from Obama is that he's playing these games, he's treating the populace in manipulative fashions and with bullshit, with some paternal or patronizing interest in sullying himself with this bullshit while still planning to act righteously, in the best interests of the people, once he's president. That one I'll buy when I see it.
These people are not on your side.
Sarah Palin is an interesting case. McCain and the Republicans played to these things so much that it looks like he ended up stuck with someone who it seems actually believes in them. I bet John McCain hates Sarah Palin's guts.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:30 PM on September 17, 2008
And please, do, recall that I myself LIKE art and dance and music and croissants and the occasional glass of white wine.
Oh my. So does art, dance, music, croissants and white wine = "superior" culture? Or, what?
konolia -- can you please define "culture" for us ... and, as asked above, "snob," "inferior" and "superior?"
Do are those who race in NASCAR different from those who enjoy watching the races? Is there a cultural divide between the wealthy sponsors and the multi-millionaire race car drivers from the middle-class spectators?
To repeat -- in your mind how is enjoying "art, dance, music, croissants and white wine" different from preferring NASCAR, Dunkin' Donuts and Budweiser?
posted by ericb at 8:42 PM on September 17, 2008
Oh my. So does art, dance, music, croissants and white wine = "superior" culture? Or, what?
konolia -- can you please define "culture" for us ... and, as asked above, "snob," "inferior" and "superior?"
Do are those who race in NASCAR different from those who enjoy watching the races? Is there a cultural divide between the wealthy sponsors and the multi-millionaire race car drivers from the middle-class spectators?
To repeat -- in your mind how is enjoying "art, dance, music, croissants and white wine" different from preferring NASCAR, Dunkin' Donuts and Budweiser?
posted by ericb at 8:42 PM on September 17, 2008
FWIW -- I enjoy some art, music, white wine and Dunkin' Donuts...not so much dance, croissants, NASCAR and Budweiser. Give me a seat at Fenway for the Sox and a locally-brewed Sam Adams or Harpoon.
posted by ericb at 8:45 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by ericb at 8:45 PM on September 17, 2008
The best possibility I see from Obama is that he's playing these games, he's treating the populace in manipulative fashions and with bullshit, with some paternal or patronizing interest in sullying himself with this bullshit while still planning to act righteously, in the best interests of the people, once he's president.
That sentence doesn't make any sense.
That one I'll buy when I see it.
I dunno, I think it's kind of hard to see calculatedly laying the groundwork by spending your entire life and career in community and public service just so you could pull one over on the populace at the last minute. Obama's been working toward this for a long time, not playing games, but playing to win. You've got another imaginative stretch going on there.
Who are you planning to vote for? And why?
posted by Miko at 8:46 PM on September 17, 2008
That sentence doesn't make any sense.
That one I'll buy when I see it.
I dunno, I think it's kind of hard to see calculatedly laying the groundwork by spending your entire life and career in community and public service just so you could pull one over on the populace at the last minute. Obama's been working toward this for a long time, not playing games, but playing to win. You've got another imaginative stretch going on there.
Who are you planning to vote for? And why?
posted by Miko at 8:46 PM on September 17, 2008
While the train doesn't stop here anymore, we still have our own police force, and several large businesses. For example, not far from where I live they produce Slim Jims (on Jones Sausage Road) and when you drive by you can smell em.
Big whoopie.
Not far from where I live is... nothing.
That's what makes this a small town: it's small, and it's relatively isolated. To get to the nearest city with more than a hundred thousand people, I have to drive five hours. To get to the nearest city with more than fifty thousand people, it's a half-hour. To a town with less than twenty-five thousand people, another twenty minutes. And in between: nothing. Houses on acreages, and a lot of farmland or forest.
Wasilla is a small town. Garner is not a small town.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:50 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Big whoopie.
Not far from where I live is... nothing.
That's what makes this a small town: it's small, and it's relatively isolated. To get to the nearest city with more than a hundred thousand people, I have to drive five hours. To get to the nearest city with more than fifty thousand people, it's a half-hour. To a town with less than twenty-five thousand people, another twenty minutes. And in between: nothing. Houses on acreages, and a lot of farmland or forest.
Wasilla is a small town. Garner is not a small town.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:50 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anyone seen the economy lately? The government is looking for it.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:54 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 8:54 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anyone seen the economy lately? The government is looking for it.
No. But, McCain/Palin are actively looking for the next lipsticked pig distraction.
posted by ericb at 9:01 PM on September 17, 2008
No. But, McCain/Palin are actively looking for the next lipsticked pig distraction.
posted by ericb at 9:01 PM on September 17, 2008
Sarah Palin, the hypocrite you're supporting for vice president, gave her daughter a choice
I don't think getting abstinence only sex ed and being raised with one's faith pounding it in that using birth control is as huge a sin as having an abortion is really being given much of a choice.
posted by brujita at 9:02 PM on September 17, 2008
I don't think getting abstinence only sex ed and being raised with one's faith pounding it in that using birth control is as huge a sin as having an abortion is really being given much of a choice.
posted by brujita at 9:02 PM on September 17, 2008
Obama supporters can now unclench.
Until the major distraction comes tomorrow.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:08 PM on September 17, 2008
Until the major distraction comes tomorrow.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:08 PM on September 17, 2008
That sentence doesn't make any sense.
I let them get too damn lengthy or just plain run-on sometimes. Let me try to be clearer: I don't, overall, see the Obama campaign acting in a pure or fully respectful fashion towards the American people. I would not, for example, market "first edition" cheap consumer branding trinkets to anyone I respected. Given that Obama seems to be participating, more or less (less than McCain, certainly, I'll admit) in this sort of thing, I see him as playing a corrupt game. (I'll quite readily admit it may not be possible to run a high-level campaign without corrupting oneself, which introduces a can of worms I'll leave for another day.) With my viewpoint that he's pandering, manipulating, etc., the best possibility I see is that he is sullying himself with this nastiness but is taking an ends-over-means position, planning to work for the good of the people once the bullshit has gotten him into office.
Obama's been working toward this for a long time, not playing games, but playing to win.
I definitely think he's a bright guy. With that in mind, the whole "community organizer" think could be straight-up honest work for the good of the people. It could also be a planned entry-level, political-resume-building step to build up cred before he begins his political career by kicking all his opponents off the ballot. I know people with vague intimations of political aspirations and some of them were starting themselves off with college student government positions.
Who are you planning to vote for? And why?
I am planning to vote for Obama. The other day I sent in my voter registration. The system is set up to realistically allow two choices, so, there you go.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:33 PM on September 17, 2008
I let them get too damn lengthy or just plain run-on sometimes. Let me try to be clearer: I don't, overall, see the Obama campaign acting in a pure or fully respectful fashion towards the American people. I would not, for example, market "first edition" cheap consumer branding trinkets to anyone I respected. Given that Obama seems to be participating, more or less (less than McCain, certainly, I'll admit) in this sort of thing, I see him as playing a corrupt game. (I'll quite readily admit it may not be possible to run a high-level campaign without corrupting oneself, which introduces a can of worms I'll leave for another day.) With my viewpoint that he's pandering, manipulating, etc., the best possibility I see is that he is sullying himself with this nastiness but is taking an ends-over-means position, planning to work for the good of the people once the bullshit has gotten him into office.
Obama's been working toward this for a long time, not playing games, but playing to win.
I definitely think he's a bright guy. With that in mind, the whole "community organizer" think could be straight-up honest work for the good of the people. It could also be a planned entry-level, political-resume-building step to build up cred before he begins his political career by kicking all his opponents off the ballot. I know people with vague intimations of political aspirations and some of them were starting themselves off with college student government positions.
Who are you planning to vote for? And why?
I am planning to vote for Obama. The other day I sent in my voter registration. The system is set up to realistically allow two choices, so, there you go.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:33 PM on September 17, 2008
To repeat -- in your mind how is enjoying "art, dance, music, croissants and white wine" different from preferring NASCAR, Dunkin' Donuts and Budweiser?
Well, I like Dunkin Donuts too. Plus their coffee is pretty tasty.
Budweiser is nasty. I don't drink beer now but when I did it was Miller.
But to answer your question, all of it is just personal taste. I like art and music and dance but I'm not exactly Junior League material.
However I am aware that people are invested in liking certain things as being markers of social class. Which means I'm the kind of person who will mess up all their nice neat categories.
posted by konolia at 9:34 PM on September 17, 2008
Well, I like Dunkin Donuts too. Plus their coffee is pretty tasty.
Budweiser is nasty. I don't drink beer now but when I did it was Miller.
But to answer your question, all of it is just personal taste. I like art and music and dance but I'm not exactly Junior League material.
However I am aware that people are invested in liking certain things as being markers of social class. Which means I'm the kind of person who will mess up all their nice neat categories.
posted by konolia at 9:34 PM on September 17, 2008
FFF: So your definition of a "small town" is a) it must be small and b) it must be isolated. That means anyone living in a small community in say Connecticut or Southern California or New York can't think of themselves as living in a small town. That's a pretty strict definition you got there. You and I are going to have to disagree on this point.
Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories. And a lot of them (unBiblical as it is) are the kind to hold grudges and hold them a long time. Those are not the folks that I as a politician or as a supporter of a politician would want to piss off (in the American sense of the phrase.)
So is holding grudges a small town value or is it more like a Southern value? I guess there is nothing that says you can't be an honest, sincere, dignified person who holds grudges. Doesn't sound too Christian, though.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:50 PM on September 17, 2008
Those particular people are not stupid, they know when they are being looked down on, and they have very long memories. And a lot of them (unBiblical as it is) are the kind to hold grudges and hold them a long time. Those are not the folks that I as a politician or as a supporter of a politician would want to piss off (in the American sense of the phrase.)
So is holding grudges a small town value or is it more like a Southern value? I guess there is nothing that says you can't be an honest, sincere, dignified person who holds grudges. Doesn't sound too Christian, though.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:50 PM on September 17, 2008
You're a straight-up independent thinker, you are!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:50 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by five fresh fish at 9:50 PM on September 17, 2008
Sorry, that was directed one-above, SLoG.
"You're a straight-up independent thinker, you are, konolia!"
posted by five fresh fish at 9:51 PM on September 17, 2008
"You're a straight-up independent thinker, you are, konolia!"
posted by five fresh fish at 9:51 PM on September 17, 2008
America needs more culture that highlights the values of our small towns. Where have you gone, David Lynch, our nation turns it lonely eyes to you...
posted by NortonDC at 9:53 PM on September 17, 2008
posted by NortonDC at 9:53 PM on September 17, 2008
So it appears that McCain- he's the one on the ticket who is stronger on foreign policy, mind you- either doesn't know the leader of Spain, or thinks the leader of Spain is an enemy of the United States.
It seems obvious that he must have confused Zapatero with Zapatista.
But he thinks that Zapatista is a dude, and not an organization? That's also pretty fucking far from comforting.
Well, I like Dunkin Donuts too. Plus their coffee is pretty tasty.
You GOTTA get up north where there's at least one Tim Horton's on every intersection. It's like Dunkin Donuts, but with sammiches and soup and chili. Double-double and an old fashioned, yeah.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:04 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
It seems obvious that he must have confused Zapatero with Zapatista.
But he thinks that Zapatista is a dude, and not an organization? That's also pretty fucking far from comforting.
Well, I like Dunkin Donuts too. Plus their coffee is pretty tasty.
You GOTTA get up north where there's at least one Tim Horton's on every intersection. It's like Dunkin Donuts, but with sammiches and soup and chili. Double-double and an old fashioned, yeah.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:04 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
FFF: So your definition of a "small town" is a) it must be small and b) it must be isolated. That means anyone living in a small community in say Connecticut or Southern California or New York
Won't speak to CT or SoCal, but NY is a large state and there is plenty of room for isolation. Everyone lives in NYC, Long Island, or slightly north of NYC and besides that it's rural with a few population centers spread about.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:11 PM on September 17, 2008
Won't speak to CT or SoCal, but NY is a large state and there is plenty of room for isolation. Everyone lives in NYC, Long Island, or slightly north of NYC and besides that it's rural with a few population centers spread about.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:11 PM on September 17, 2008
So your definition of a "small town" is a) it must be small and b) it must be isolated.
Well, d-uh. Otherwise Burnaby is a small town: it only has 200000 people.
And it's in the middle of a 2 million person metropolis. But, hey, it's incorporated and has its own police and everything! Never you mind that it's a seamless mass of houses and businesses and malls from the heart of Vancouver all the way to the far side of Surrey. It's a small town!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:25 PM on September 17, 2008
Well, d-uh. Otherwise Burnaby is a small town: it only has 200000 people.
And it's in the middle of a 2 million person metropolis. But, hey, it's incorporated and has its own police and everything! Never you mind that it's a seamless mass of houses and businesses and malls from the heart of Vancouver all the way to the far side of Surrey. It's a small town!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:25 PM on September 17, 2008
Oh, I came back here to post this:
Seems that better fiscal management would have allowed the Republican administration to at least come close to breaking even.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:27 PM on September 17, 2008
But, in fact, the economy's weaker-than-expected performance, along with other "technical" factors that are beyond policymakers' control, account for less than a fourth of the $1.3 trillion deterioration in the budget. The other three-fourths -- $1 trillion's worth -- is due to actions by the White House and Congress since 2001 -- specifically, the tax cuts and spending increases they enacted.Some dude at Huffington. YMMV.
Seems that better fiscal management would have allowed the Republican administration to at least come close to breaking even.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:27 PM on September 17, 2008
That's not what I wrote.
Ah, bullshit, konolia. Let's look at the statement to which I refer - you said:
Second, you manage to simultaneously insult rural and urban simultaneously - rural people are by no means any distance "away from Art and Culture", any more than urban people are any distance away from "values like treating people right". Do you understand how not cut-and-dry the world is? How there are different shades between black and white?
Talking about your love of white wine and croissants doesn't change a damn thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:12 AM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
Ah, bullshit, konolia. Let's look at the statement to which I refer - you said:
I hope, while you are educating your children about art and culture, you are also teaching them how to be good human beings. Which would include not being snobs. ... See, although I myself enjoy art and music and "culture" I understand that in some sense these are personal preferences. My parents certainly didn't raise me to appreciate art-now, they did have an awesome LP of Rhapsody In Blue that I played over and over and over again as a child, but I was not raised to "be cultured."First of all, the statement "I hope you are also teaching [your children] to be good human beings" is an insuation that there is a possibility that some of us are not, and that those who are not fall under your "urban snob" category. That is a shameful charge to level at another human being.
I think that it is far too easy to talk about how boring and obnoxious a small town is (even one fifteen minutes away from Art and Culture) without realizing that there are other values that are even more important to expose one's young to. Values like looking after each other (neighbors in small towns are really good at that.) Values like treating people right. Values like "remembering where you came from."
Second, you manage to simultaneously insult rural and urban simultaneously - rural people are by no means any distance "away from Art and Culture", any more than urban people are any distance away from "values like treating people right". Do you understand how not cut-and-dry the world is? How there are different shades between black and white?
Talking about your love of white wine and croissants doesn't change a damn thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:12 AM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
Budweiser is nasty. I don't drink beer now but when I did it was Miller.
Ah, the good stuff.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:29 AM on September 18, 2008
Ah, the good stuff.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:29 AM on September 18, 2008
Wow. From reading the NYT this morning, I learn that McCain and Palin have begun using "Fanfare for the Common Man" as their walk-on music at rallies.
Just amazing. Gail Collins has a fine little column today about the many faces of McCain, in which she dispenses a few jabs worthy of Maureen Dowd, such as:
" . . . he [McCain] had just morphed into a new persona — a raging populist demanding more regulation of the nation’s financial system. And since McCain’s willingness to make speeches that have nothing to do with his actual beliefs is not matched by an ability to give them, he wound up sounding like Bob Dole impersonating Huey Long."
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:42 AM on September 18, 2008
Just amazing. Gail Collins has a fine little column today about the many faces of McCain, in which she dispenses a few jabs worthy of Maureen Dowd, such as:
" . . . he [McCain] had just morphed into a new persona — a raging populist demanding more regulation of the nation’s financial system. And since McCain’s willingness to make speeches that have nothing to do with his actual beliefs is not matched by an ability to give them, he wound up sounding like Bob Dole impersonating Huey Long."
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:42 AM on September 18, 2008
he wound up sounding like Bob Dole impersonating Huey Long
I'm starting to wish either one of them was the GOP candidate. You know, to restore some dignity to the party.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:49 AM on September 18, 2008
I'm starting to wish either one of them was the GOP candidate. You know, to restore some dignity to the party.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:49 AM on September 18, 2008
It's not indecent. It's highly moral, Majesty. It's full of proper small town virtues.
Excuse me, Majesty, but what do you think these could be? Being from New York, I'd love to learn.
Well, tell him, konolia. Name us a small town virtue.
Love, sire.
Oh, love! Of course, in New York we know nothing about love.
posted by yeti at 6:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Excuse me, Majesty, but what do you think these could be? Being from New York, I'd love to learn.
Well, tell him, konolia. Name us a small town virtue.
Love, sire.
Oh, love! Of course, in New York we know nothing about love.
posted by yeti at 6:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
America needs more culture that highlights the values of our small towns. Where have you gone, David Lynch, our nation turns it lonely eyes to you...
Apropos the "small town" discussion ...
Simon and Garfunkel -- 'My Little Town.'
posted by ericb at 6:50 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Apropos the "small town" discussion ...
Simon and Garfunkel -- 'My Little Town.'
posted by ericb at 6:50 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yesterday, McCain Event at GM Factory Becomes Obama Rally.
posted by ericb at 7:04 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 7:04 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
NY Times Poll: McCain Widely Viewed As "Typical Republican" Would Continue Or Expand Bush's Policies.
posted by ericb at 7:21 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by ericb at 7:21 AM on September 18, 2008
Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) On Palin: ‘I Think It’s A Stretch To…Say She’s Got The Experience To Be President’.
posted by ericb at 7:25 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by ericb at 7:25 AM on September 18, 2008
I would not, for example, market "first edition" cheap consumer branding trinkets to anyone I respected.
For one thing, you're assuming that people don't want the trinkets. They do. At my local campaign office, we can't keep Obama gear in stock. Why? His campaign understands the power of symbol and the need to demonstrate wide and visible support. It's the same reason that FDR commissioned artists to create posters, murals, and buttons during the New Deal and World War II - the images spread the message and lend supporters a sense of inclusion in the work of the party.
And for another, they're an important source of revenue. Obama's campaign began by swearing off some categories of support that traditionally go to major party candidates, and has emphasized small-donor support. So to make up for some lost income, the campaign has designed and sold great-looking swag to bring cash into the coffers. It absolutely is unrealistic to think you can run a campaign without attending to the bottom line of what is a nonprofit business with a limited lifespan (that was one of Hilary's mistkaes). Dollars equal reach and resources; I much prefer doing something direct and honest, like selling gear supporters want, than raising those funds by other means.
the whole "community organizer" think could be straight-up honest work for the good of the people. It could also be a planned entry-level, political-resume-building step to build up cred before he begins his political career by kicking all his opponents off the ballot.
So what? Does it matter? It was an instrtuctive and important experience. Obama seems to have wanted a political career from the beginning. His choice to begin it with community organizing, though, is telling. Most people on his trajectory spend those years working as a Congressional aide or in a judge's chambers, building their connections and experience entirely within the halls of established government. If you read about Obama's organizing years, either in Dreams From My Father or any of the profiles that have been published, you realize how very different a task he set himself. He inserted himself at the intersection of established government structures (schools, social work agencies, housing project administrators, police stations, the district offices of city and state reps) and neglected communities, finding ways for people to access democracy to improve their lives. Regardless of his reasons for doing it, he learned quite a bit about the difference between government as practiced in voting chambers and government as lived and experienced by regular people in their own neighborhoods. I don't doubt that he was always ambitious; I'm thankful - telented people should aim to do as much leadership as they can. But I respect his choice to begin his education in civic life in this manner, which is so very different from the ways in which most politicians start out.
posted by Miko at 7:32 AM on September 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
For one thing, you're assuming that people don't want the trinkets. They do. At my local campaign office, we can't keep Obama gear in stock. Why? His campaign understands the power of symbol and the need to demonstrate wide and visible support. It's the same reason that FDR commissioned artists to create posters, murals, and buttons during the New Deal and World War II - the images spread the message and lend supporters a sense of inclusion in the work of the party.
And for another, they're an important source of revenue. Obama's campaign began by swearing off some categories of support that traditionally go to major party candidates, and has emphasized small-donor support. So to make up for some lost income, the campaign has designed and sold great-looking swag to bring cash into the coffers. It absolutely is unrealistic to think you can run a campaign without attending to the bottom line of what is a nonprofit business with a limited lifespan (that was one of Hilary's mistkaes). Dollars equal reach and resources; I much prefer doing something direct and honest, like selling gear supporters want, than raising those funds by other means.
the whole "community organizer" think could be straight-up honest work for the good of the people. It could also be a planned entry-level, political-resume-building step to build up cred before he begins his political career by kicking all his opponents off the ballot.
So what? Does it matter? It was an instrtuctive and important experience. Obama seems to have wanted a political career from the beginning. His choice to begin it with community organizing, though, is telling. Most people on his trajectory spend those years working as a Congressional aide or in a judge's chambers, building their connections and experience entirely within the halls of established government. If you read about Obama's organizing years, either in Dreams From My Father or any of the profiles that have been published, you realize how very different a task he set himself. He inserted himself at the intersection of established government structures (schools, social work agencies, housing project administrators, police stations, the district offices of city and state reps) and neglected communities, finding ways for people to access democracy to improve their lives. Regardless of his reasons for doing it, he learned quite a bit about the difference between government as practiced in voting chambers and government as lived and experienced by regular people in their own neighborhoods. I don't doubt that he was always ambitious; I'm thankful - telented people should aim to do as much leadership as they can. But I respect his choice to begin his education in civic life in this manner, which is so very different from the ways in which most politicians start out.
posted by Miko at 7:32 AM on September 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
Obama on the "bitter" remark:
posted by Miko at 7:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [9 favorites]
There has been a small "political flare-up because I said something that everybody knows is true, which is that there are a whole bunch of folks in small towns in Pennsylvania, in towns right here in Indiana, in my hometown in Illinois, who are bitter," Obama said Saturday morning at a town hall-style meeting at the university. "They are angry. They feel like they have been left behind. They feel like nobody is paying attention to what they're going through."Critique the gaffe. But listen for the substance.
"So I said, well you know, when you're bitter you turn to what you can count on. So people, they vote about guns, or they take comfort from their faith and their family and their community. And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming over to this country."
After acknowledging his previous remarks in California could have been better phrased, he added:
"The truth is that these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation, those are important. That's what sustains us. But what is absolutely true is that people don't feel like they are being listened to.
"And so they pray and they count on each other and they count on their families. You know this in your own lives, and what we need is a government that is actually paying attention.
posted by Miko at 7:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [9 favorites]
OK, this is really bizarre. McCain was giving an interview with a Spanish news channel and was asked about the prime minister of Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. He gave a weird answer in which he seems to be confused either about who Zapatero is or (less likely, although this is the way the Spanish press is interpreting it) whether Spain is in Latin America or Europe.
The exchange in question is at the end of that interview, and it's not clear to me exactly what's going on, but he sounds very confused. It comes across to me as something of a senior moment that could be very damaging if it gets traction in the US media.
posted by EarBucket at 7:43 AM on September 18, 2008
The exchange in question is at the end of that interview, and it's not clear to me exactly what's going on, but he sounds very confused. It comes across to me as something of a senior moment that could be very damaging if it gets traction in the US media.
posted by EarBucket at 7:43 AM on September 18, 2008
More here:
John McCain didn't appear to know that Spain was in Europe, or that the leader of Spain was named Zapatero, even after he was told that Zapatero was the leader of Spain.
When asked about Spain and Zapatero, by a Spanish reporter for a Spanish newspaper, McCain responded about Mexico and Latin America. A reader suggested something that Josh had already considered, that perhaps McCain thought the reporter was talking about the Zapatistas in Mexico, the guerilla group. But that's not possible as the reporter clearly said she was talking about Spain and Spain's leader, Zapatero. She told McCain this twice. Let me tell you exactly what she asked McCain (per the translation):
"Senator, finally, let's talk about Spain. If you're elected president, would you invite President Zapatero to meet with you in the White House?"
McCain then gives this odd answer about America's friends and America's enemies. He also, oddly, talks about Mexico (why Mexico? The question was about Spain) and how he'd invite friendly leaders to the White House. She then asks him again, would that invitation include President Zapatero? He says again that he'd have to review relations first, blah blah. She then says again, "so you'd have to wait to see, so would you meet with him in the White House?" He again repeats his weird statement about friends and enemies. McCain also throws in, oddly, to the Spanish reporter, when she's asking him about meeting the Spanish president, a line about the importance of our relationship with Latin America (this is now the second time he answered a question about meeting the president of Spain with an answer about Latin America). She then says to McCain one last time:
"Okay, but I'm talking about Europe - the president of Spain, would you meet with him?"
This time, there was no room for confusion. McCain then gives this very bizarre answer:
"I will meet with any leader who has the same principles and philosophy as us in terms of human rights, democracy, and freedom and I will stand up to those who do not."
posted by EarBucket at 7:44 AM on September 18, 2008
John McCain didn't appear to know that Spain was in Europe, or that the leader of Spain was named Zapatero, even after he was told that Zapatero was the leader of Spain.
When asked about Spain and Zapatero, by a Spanish reporter for a Spanish newspaper, McCain responded about Mexico and Latin America. A reader suggested something that Josh had already considered, that perhaps McCain thought the reporter was talking about the Zapatistas in Mexico, the guerilla group. But that's not possible as the reporter clearly said she was talking about Spain and Spain's leader, Zapatero. She told McCain this twice. Let me tell you exactly what she asked McCain (per the translation):
"Senator, finally, let's talk about Spain. If you're elected president, would you invite President Zapatero to meet with you in the White House?"
McCain then gives this odd answer about America's friends and America's enemies. He also, oddly, talks about Mexico (why Mexico? The question was about Spain) and how he'd invite friendly leaders to the White House. She then asks him again, would that invitation include President Zapatero? He says again that he'd have to review relations first, blah blah. She then says again, "so you'd have to wait to see, so would you meet with him in the White House?" He again repeats his weird statement about friends and enemies. McCain also throws in, oddly, to the Spanish reporter, when she's asking him about meeting the Spanish president, a line about the importance of our relationship with Latin America (this is now the second time he answered a question about meeting the president of Spain with an answer about Latin America). She then says to McCain one last time:
"Okay, but I'm talking about Europe - the president of Spain, would you meet with him?"
This time, there was no room for confusion. McCain then gives this very bizarre answer:
"I will meet with any leader who has the same principles and philosophy as us in terms of human rights, democracy, and freedom and I will stand up to those who do not."
posted by EarBucket at 7:44 AM on September 18, 2008
The Palin/RNC bump has eroded.
Candidates Back to Where They Were Before Conventions, and Palin Pick
Candidates Back to Where They Were Before Conventions, and Palin Pick
"Polls taken after the Republican convention suggested that Mr. McCain had enjoyed a surge of support — particularly among white women after his selection of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate — but the latest poll indicates 'the Palin effect' was, at least so far, a limited burst of interest.posted by ericb at 7:46 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The contest appears to be roughly where it was before the two conventions and before the vice presidential selections: Mr. Obama has the support of 48 percent of registered voters, compared with 43 percent for Mr. McCain, a difference within the poll’s margin of sampling error, and statistically unchanged from the tally in the last New York Times/CBS News Poll in mid-August."
Konolia, did you seriously reach all the way back to freaking April to revive the infamous "bitter" comment as your sole evidence that Barack disdains small-town America (even as you conveniently ignored the explanation, quoted by Miko, that the man himself gave soon thereafter).
I mean, really? That's all you can come up with? Because it's pretty damned lame, frankly. Surely you can do better than that.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:49 AM on September 18, 2008
I mean, really? That's all you can come up with? Because it's pretty damned lame, frankly. Surely you can do better than that.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:49 AM on September 18, 2008
High Turnout, New Procedures May Mean an Election Day Mess
"Faced with a surge in voter registrations leading up to Nov. 4, election officials across the country are bracing for long lines, equipment failures and confusion over polling procedures that could cost thousands the chance to cast a ballot.posted by ericb at 7:51 AM on September 18, 2008
The crush of voters will strain a system already in the midst of transformation, with jurisdictions introducing new machines and rules to avoid the catastrophe of the deadlocked 2000 election and the lingering controversy over the 2004 outcome. Even within the past few months, cities and counties have revamped their processes: Nine million voters, including many in the battleground states of Ohio, Florida and Colorado, will use equipment that has changed since March.
But the widespread changes meant to reassure the public have also increased the potential for trouble."
I mean, really? That's all you can come up with? Because it's pretty damned lame, frankly. Surely you can do better than that.
I'll bet dollars to donuts (Dunkin', that is), she can't.
posted by ericb at 7:52 AM on September 18, 2008
I'll bet dollars to donuts (Dunkin', that is), she can't.
posted by ericb at 7:52 AM on September 18, 2008
It's kind of hard to evaluate that McCain in Spain story without reading an English transcipt, which doesn't seem to exist yet (my high school Spanish isn't up to the task). If one turns up, would someone please post? Thanks!
posted by Miko at 8:06 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Miko at 8:06 AM on September 18, 2008
@ericb That will just get spun on the news as, "Look at all these long lines! So many people love to Vote. Democracy at work!" America needs some serious help when it comes to running elections. Serious ass help.
posted by chunking express at 8:09 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by chunking express at 8:09 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I feel compelled to weigh in on the small town issue.
I won't go into much detail except to say that as a social scientist, one of my research specializations could be reasonably described as the study of American small-town culture, and that I've logged more hours than most professors, I would venture, sleeping in single-wide trailers, worshipping in evangelical churches, playing country music in dangerous beer joints, drinking and talking shit in roadside garages, trailing along on hunting trips, and -- to the main point -- having open political and cultural and religious discussions in which I have almost never disguised my own liberal, agnostic, cosmopolitan identity from people who, almost to a one, identify as conservative, Christian, and "small town." (What, you don't have friends with whom you disagree politically?)
And that experience is one major reason I am so supportive of Barack Obama. Of everything he stands for, for me it all goes back to "we don't live in a red America or a blue America, we live in the United States of America." When he said that at the '04 convention, a chill ran down my spine and I knew -- in that moment -- he would be president one day. That argument goes beyond liberal or conservative, beyond the racial essentialism that lies behind "cultural" arguments for political identity. It is the "enough" in this election. Enough of this red/blue bullshit; we need to form a national consensus and we need a sense of community. We're facing challenges the likes of which we have never seen and there is no time to argue about who's more virtuous than someone else. Enough.
Because can't you see, konolia -- or anyone on the other side tossing around stereotypes of small town communities -- this is how corporate power dominates us? It's as simple as this: we have been turned against each other as a nation (and not for the first time) in the service of an agenda to rule, not to move us forward as a nation. The evidence is so abundantly clear -- there is no legitimate ideological "conservatism" to the practices of the right in this country, other than the conservation of corporate power. The rest of the agenda is bread and circuses, a sop to the useful idiots whose votes can be bought for a little broadly applied fear and outrage every four years, stoked by backward looking cultural nostalgia for a time that is *not* coming back. And by "useful idiots" I mean to say that's how Karl Rove and his pals think of people like konolia and my small town friends, whose votes they nearly take for granted (the same way the Dems have taken African American votes for granted, and that's another subject worth exploring).
The only way to start undoing decades of culture war smokescreen for class war reality is to undercut the discourse of polarization of values on which it depends. Demography is, in part, doing that for us, as is technology, as are the routinized crises of the global economy. But the simplest step to take is simply to stop accepting these categories -- "small town" and "cosmopolitan" as descriptions of anything but ideological fantasy figures, as themselves productive of the "reality" of these distinctions.
The Obama campaign has made impressive efforts to do this. They could go further, I think -- a lot. But especially those of us who support Barack Obama need to internalize the message discipline because it's a message of *truth.* People are people; everyone is parochial in her/his own way; all of us are easily led to fear and hate someone else on some level because that's human nature, adaptive on some level in earlier times; there are good people and bad people in every community, of every ethnicity, in every social class. The bad people win if they can keep us at each other's throats.
That means we can criticize what's wrong with small town politics, the problems facing small town communities, and the limits of the application of small town nostalgia to contemporary social problems and issues without stereotyping the people who live in those communities. And vice versa for cities and urban communities.
Indeed, consider that Metafilter is in many ways a small town. All of our problems, and all of the things we love about this site, are the problems of community, and a community in which anonymity is not an option (not real-world, but locally -- we're a reputational community, a basic diagnostic feature of "small town" social life).
Anyway, I know it's not easy. I fight it myself because outrage and anger are powerful emotions, and so much seems at stake in this election. And I think tolerance has its limits -- I personally hit the line at racism, overt theocratic ideology, and science-denial. But those are extreme positions, and they are marginal in America, whether in cities or small towns (and they are found in both). They can be decried without being used to stereotype the much larger number of basically decent people. Politicians say things about America as a "decent" nation all the time, and my own view is that they are right about the broad national character, but they take supreme advantage of that very decency, and what we've gotten is an indecent spectacle for a politics, in the service of an indecent agenda of war and repression and greed. And that hypocrisy has fostered a tone of brutal indecency in our political discourse.
But the thing about Obama is not only that he can win, but that he can win without playing the old game of divide and conquer. *That* is the meaningful victory within sight here -- a transformation of the GOP Southern Strategy model that has had us by the short hairs for decades and that has *crippled* the ability of government to actually govern in rational and consensus-based ways. An end to the depressing cynicism of our public life. And end to distracting culture wars that keep us from coming together.
Yes we can.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [48 favorites]
I won't go into much detail except to say that as a social scientist, one of my research specializations could be reasonably described as the study of American small-town culture, and that I've logged more hours than most professors, I would venture, sleeping in single-wide trailers, worshipping in evangelical churches, playing country music in dangerous beer joints, drinking and talking shit in roadside garages, trailing along on hunting trips, and -- to the main point -- having open political and cultural and religious discussions in which I have almost never disguised my own liberal, agnostic, cosmopolitan identity from people who, almost to a one, identify as conservative, Christian, and "small town." (What, you don't have friends with whom you disagree politically?)
And that experience is one major reason I am so supportive of Barack Obama. Of everything he stands for, for me it all goes back to "we don't live in a red America or a blue America, we live in the United States of America." When he said that at the '04 convention, a chill ran down my spine and I knew -- in that moment -- he would be president one day. That argument goes beyond liberal or conservative, beyond the racial essentialism that lies behind "cultural" arguments for political identity. It is the "enough" in this election. Enough of this red/blue bullshit; we need to form a national consensus and we need a sense of community. We're facing challenges the likes of which we have never seen and there is no time to argue about who's more virtuous than someone else. Enough.
Because can't you see, konolia -- or anyone on the other side tossing around stereotypes of small town communities -- this is how corporate power dominates us? It's as simple as this: we have been turned against each other as a nation (and not for the first time) in the service of an agenda to rule, not to move us forward as a nation. The evidence is so abundantly clear -- there is no legitimate ideological "conservatism" to the practices of the right in this country, other than the conservation of corporate power. The rest of the agenda is bread and circuses, a sop to the useful idiots whose votes can be bought for a little broadly applied fear and outrage every four years, stoked by backward looking cultural nostalgia for a time that is *not* coming back. And by "useful idiots" I mean to say that's how Karl Rove and his pals think of people like konolia and my small town friends, whose votes they nearly take for granted (the same way the Dems have taken African American votes for granted, and that's another subject worth exploring).
The only way to start undoing decades of culture war smokescreen for class war reality is to undercut the discourse of polarization of values on which it depends. Demography is, in part, doing that for us, as is technology, as are the routinized crises of the global economy. But the simplest step to take is simply to stop accepting these categories -- "small town" and "cosmopolitan" as descriptions of anything but ideological fantasy figures, as themselves productive of the "reality" of these distinctions.
The Obama campaign has made impressive efforts to do this. They could go further, I think -- a lot. But especially those of us who support Barack Obama need to internalize the message discipline because it's a message of *truth.* People are people; everyone is parochial in her/his own way; all of us are easily led to fear and hate someone else on some level because that's human nature, adaptive on some level in earlier times; there are good people and bad people in every community, of every ethnicity, in every social class. The bad people win if they can keep us at each other's throats.
That means we can criticize what's wrong with small town politics, the problems facing small town communities, and the limits of the application of small town nostalgia to contemporary social problems and issues without stereotyping the people who live in those communities. And vice versa for cities and urban communities.
Indeed, consider that Metafilter is in many ways a small town. All of our problems, and all of the things we love about this site, are the problems of community, and a community in which anonymity is not an option (not real-world, but locally -- we're a reputational community, a basic diagnostic feature of "small town" social life).
Anyway, I know it's not easy. I fight it myself because outrage and anger are powerful emotions, and so much seems at stake in this election. And I think tolerance has its limits -- I personally hit the line at racism, overt theocratic ideology, and science-denial. But those are extreme positions, and they are marginal in America, whether in cities or small towns (and they are found in both). They can be decried without being used to stereotype the much larger number of basically decent people. Politicians say things about America as a "decent" nation all the time, and my own view is that they are right about the broad national character, but they take supreme advantage of that very decency, and what we've gotten is an indecent spectacle for a politics, in the service of an indecent agenda of war and repression and greed. And that hypocrisy has fostered a tone of brutal indecency in our political discourse.
But the thing about Obama is not only that he can win, but that he can win without playing the old game of divide and conquer. *That* is the meaningful victory within sight here -- a transformation of the GOP Southern Strategy model that has had us by the short hairs for decades and that has *crippled* the ability of government to actually govern in rational and consensus-based ways. An end to the depressing cynicism of our public life. And end to distracting culture wars that keep us from coming together.
Yes we can.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [48 favorites]
It's kind of hard to evaluate that McCain in Spain story without reading an English transcipt
Transcript + recording.
It sounds to me like he wasn't listening and/or had trouble understanding the question, and just kept going on autopilot.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008
Transcript + recording.
It sounds to me like he wasn't listening and/or had trouble understanding the question, and just kept going on autopilot.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008
High Turnout, New Procedures May Mean an Election Day Mess
Vote early.
...and vote often.
posted by clearly at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Vote early.
...and vote often.
posted by clearly at 8:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
chunking express, you're absolutely right about that. Whether or not you believe election fraud was at work in 2004 in Ohio, you don't have to go as far as fraud to understand that our election committees are often so unprepared and poorly run that if they'd occurred in a new third world democracy, we'd be sending observers. I've seen it in my own districts - running out of ballots (WTF?), lengthy delays due to broken machines or the Xeroxing of more ballots, an inadequate number of voting booths for the tunout, misinformation making its way through long lines. Shameful stuff that totally undermines the basis for a representative democracy.
Your comment has prompted me to do what I can do at the state and local level - I'm going to email to my town clerk and state election commission, cite this article, and ask what preparations are being made. A letter to the editor wouldn't hurt, either. I urge others to do this too. Voting needs to be a smooth and convenient process in this day and age of intense schedules, commutes, and more than one job per person.
I'm a campaign volunteer, and they've also urged us to remind people that they're entitled to vote absentee if they don't think they'll be able to vote at the polls. All you have to do is contact your Town or City clerk's office to request an absentee ballot. They mail it to you, you fill it out in the comfort of your own home at your own convenience, and mail it back any time before Election Day. That's another way to avoid mess-ups at the polls.
posted by Miko at 8:28 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Your comment has prompted me to do what I can do at the state and local level - I'm going to email to my town clerk and state election commission, cite this article, and ask what preparations are being made. A letter to the editor wouldn't hurt, either. I urge others to do this too. Voting needs to be a smooth and convenient process in this day and age of intense schedules, commutes, and more than one job per person.
I'm a campaign volunteer, and they've also urged us to remind people that they're entitled to vote absentee if they don't think they'll be able to vote at the polls. All you have to do is contact your Town or City clerk's office to request an absentee ballot. They mail it to you, you fill it out in the comfort of your own home at your own convenience, and mail it back any time before Election Day. That's another way to avoid mess-ups at the polls.
posted by Miko at 8:28 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
posted by kirkaracha at 8:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [11 favorites]
Do any of the candidates or VP picks speak any foreign languages? Have we ever had a bilingual president?
posted by iamkimiam at 8:31 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by iamkimiam at 8:31 AM on September 18, 2008
Future President Jeb Bush is fluent in Spanish.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:36 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:36 AM on September 18, 2008
High Turnout, New Procedures May Mean an Election Day Mess
Vote early.
The Early Voting Information Center at Reed College.
"31 states allow no-excuse pre-Election Day in-person voting - either early voting on a voting machine or in-person absentee voting."
Can anybody find a good chart or a list of early voting dates for these states?
posted by cashman at 8:37 AM on September 18, 2008
Vote early.
The Early Voting Information Center at Reed College.
"31 states allow no-excuse pre-Election Day in-person voting - either early voting on a voting machine or in-person absentee voting."
Can anybody find a good chart or a list of early voting dates for these states?
posted by cashman at 8:37 AM on September 18, 2008
I wish I could favorite that comment a hundred times, FCM.
posted by Miko at 8:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 8:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I remember George Bush speaking some Spanish during the 2000 campaign. Then it became unfashionable for Republicans to speak anything but good old-fashioned Murican, and we haven't heard much about it since.
Jimmy Carter speaks some limited Spanish.
James Garfield could write in Latin with one hand and Greek with the other--at the same time.
Martin Van Buren's first language was Dutch.
Thomas Jefferson could read, at least, in Greek, Latin, French (I believe he spoke French fluently), Italian, and Spanish, with some dabbling in German, Arabic, Gaelic, and Welsh. But he was an elitist.
It's likely most of the founding fathers had at least some Latin and Greek, as anyone with any education at the time would have.
posted by EarBucket at 8:44 AM on September 18, 2008
Jimmy Carter speaks some limited Spanish.
James Garfield could write in Latin with one hand and Greek with the other--at the same time.
Martin Van Buren's first language was Dutch.
Thomas Jefferson could read, at least, in Greek, Latin, French (I believe he spoke French fluently), Italian, and Spanish, with some dabbling in German, Arabic, Gaelic, and Welsh. But he was an elitist.
It's likely most of the founding fathers had at least some Latin and Greek, as anyone with any education at the time would have.
posted by EarBucket at 8:44 AM on September 18, 2008
Do any of the candidates or VP picks speak any foreign languages? Have we ever had a bilingual president?
Obama: “I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!"
posted by ericb at 8:46 AM on September 18, 2008
Obama: “I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!"
posted by ericb at 8:46 AM on September 18, 2008
Yeah, the transcript was helpful. He did misunderstand what he was being asked, made the mistake of assuming it was about South America, mentioned a few South American issues, but was clearly unsure and retreated to vagueness ("we will meet with our friends"). He wasn't tracking fully.
posted by Miko at 8:53 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Miko at 8:53 AM on September 18, 2008
More on Thomas Jefferson:
"Thomas Jefferson was indeed accomplished. Not only did he master English (of course), but he also learned Latin, Greek, Spanish, Italian, French and more than twelve Native American dialects. Approximately 18 altogether."On his language education in college:
"I was educated at William and Mary college in Williamsburg. I read Greek, Latin, French, Italian, Spanish, and English of course, with something of it’s radix the Anglo-Saxon."Regarding French, in particular:
"The French language is unquestionably an important object of education. The habit of speaking it can only be acquired by conversation. This may be done either in France or Canada (for I learn here that the French of the genteel Canadians is very pure). While learning the language in France a young man's morals, health and fortune are more irresistibly endangered than in any country of the universe: in Canada he would be acquiring a knowledge of the country and it's inhabitants which cannot fail to be useful in life to every American. On this point I have long ago made up my mind, that Canada is the country to which we should send our children to acquire a knowledge of the French tongue."posted by ericb at 9:02 AM on September 18, 2008
He also, oddly, talks about Mexico (why Mexico? The question was about Spain)
Well they speak Spanish in Mexico-- so.... close enough. Just like after 9/11 when those Arab guys attacked us, we attacked Iraq. Close enough.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:06 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well they speak Spanish in Mexico-- so.... close enough. Just like after 9/11 when those Arab guys attacked us, we attacked Iraq. Close enough.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:06 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Department of Daily Blowback:
Joe Klein, who has been increasingly fierce (and who used to be a real McCain booster) in Time Magazine today:
John McCain has raised serious questions about whether he has the character to lead the nation. He has defaced his beloved military code of honor. He has run a dirty campaign.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:19 AM on September 18, 2008
Joe Klein, who has been increasingly fierce (and who used to be a real McCain booster) in Time Magazine today:
John McCain has raised serious questions about whether he has the character to lead the nation. He has defaced his beloved military code of honor. He has run a dirty campaign.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:19 AM on September 18, 2008
From Ear Bucket's TPM link: The story is already getting picked up pretty quickly in the Spanish press. And the way it's being interpreted in the Spanish press is that McCain got confused about the fact that Spain is a country in Europe, rather than a rogue state in Latin America.
I love that idea of Spain as a rogue state in Latin America. I see a mustachioed Spain roaming around, unpredictable, robbing the estate of a wealthy land owner and then giving it all away to a little peasant girl in the street. Maybe spending the night between red satin sheets with a prostitute with a heart of gold before leaving at dawn to go fight a duel with an arrogant police captain who grinds his boot into the face of the poor. Oh wait. Am I confusing "Spain" with "Zorro"?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:20 AM on September 18, 2008 [10 favorites]
I love that idea of Spain as a rogue state in Latin America. I see a mustachioed Spain roaming around, unpredictable, robbing the estate of a wealthy land owner and then giving it all away to a little peasant girl in the street. Maybe spending the night between red satin sheets with a prostitute with a heart of gold before leaving at dawn to go fight a duel with an arrogant police captain who grinds his boot into the face of the poor. Oh wait. Am I confusing "Spain" with "Zorro"?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:20 AM on September 18, 2008 [10 favorites]
From reading the NYT this morning, I learn that McCain and Palin have begun using "Fanfare for the Common Man" as their walk-on music at rallies.
Heh. Isn't that the same bit of music that Bill Clinton used during his first Inauguration, for which the right-wing mercilessly derided him?
posted by contessa at 9:23 AM on September 18, 2008
Heh. Isn't that the same bit of music that Bill Clinton used during his first Inauguration, for which the right-wing mercilessly derided him?
posted by contessa at 9:23 AM on September 18, 2008
Boy... he really is in the habit of running his mouth of on subjects he knows nothing about with great authority, isn't he?
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on September 18, 2008
McCain Slights Spanish Prime Minister: according to a McCain foreign policy advisor, "there is no doubt Senator McCain knew exactly to whom the question referred," and it was a deliberate snub.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:24 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 9:24 AM on September 18, 2008
How McCain Lost Me, by Elizabeth Drew, author of the very complimentary 2002 book Citizen McCain.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2008
He wasn't tracking fully.
Yeah, that seems exactly right.
The actual embarrassing thing here is that the McCain people, instead of just saying that, are now claiming he meant exactly what he said. Randy Sheunemann: "Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview."
Way to dig yourself further into a hole, Randy. And BTW, it's Prime Minister Zapatero.
posted by neroli at 9:29 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that seems exactly right.
The actual embarrassing thing here is that the McCain people, instead of just saying that, are now claiming he meant exactly what he said. Randy Sheunemann: "Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview."
Way to dig yourself further into a hole, Randy. And BTW, it's Prime Minister Zapatero.
posted by neroli at 9:29 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Shhh ... Aaron Copland was gay.
posted by lukemeister at 9:31 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by lukemeister at 9:31 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Thomas Jefferson: "While learning the language in France a young man's morals, health and fortune are more irresistibly endangered than in any country of the universe..."
"Franklin, I'm looking in your general vicinity."
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:36 AM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
"Franklin, I'm looking in your general vicinity."
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:36 AM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
That Elizabeth Drew piece has a quote from McCain's 2002 memoir that should get some more exposure:
I didn’t decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. . . . In truth, I’d had the ambition for a long time.
Well, that's some Straight Talk, at least.
posted by neroli at 9:38 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I didn’t decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. . . . In truth, I’d had the ambition for a long time.
Well, that's some Straight Talk, at least.
posted by neroli at 9:38 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
And BTW, it's Prime Minister Zapatero.
In the Spanish press, Zapatero is referred to as "the president" -- el presidente Zapatero.
posted by ericb at 9:39 AM on September 18, 2008
In the Spanish press, Zapatero is referred to as "the president" -- el presidente Zapatero.
posted by ericb at 9:39 AM on September 18, 2008
Have you seen where Palin told Hannity that she watched Tina Fey's impression of her "with the sound off"? But that she "nailed it"?
Seriously. That's what she wants you to believe. That she was parodied on national television but chose to watch it with the sound off, because, you know ... well, because if she admits that she listened to the audio she could be asked about the actual skit instead of Tina Fey's appearance and then what can she say?
posted by Bookhouse at 9:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Seriously. That's what she wants you to believe. That she was parodied on national television but chose to watch it with the sound off, because, you know ... well, because if she admits that she listened to the audio she could be asked about the actual skit instead of Tina Fey's appearance and then what can she say?
posted by Bookhouse at 9:40 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
McCain people, instead of just saying that, are now claiming he meant exactly what he said
Pretty much like he knew what he meant by "Fundamentals of the economy".
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on September 18, 2008
Pretty much like he knew what he meant by "Fundamentals of the economy".
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on September 18, 2008
"Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview."
"That's rather odd, since in April, McCain did an interview with the same Spanish newspaper saying bygones were bygones, it was time to 'look to the future,' and that he'd welcome Zapatero visiting him in the White House. So, why the sudden change now? We're seriously to believe that McCain just decided, 6 weeks before the election, to bash the entire nation of Spain when 5 months ago he said he was happy to meet with the Spanish leader?"posted by ericb at 9:42 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. . .
UNBLINKABLE!
posted by Artw at 9:42 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
UNBLINKABLE!
posted by Artw at 9:42 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
And BTW, it's Prime Minister Zapatero. In the Spanish press, Zapatero is referred to as "the president" -- el presidente Zapatero.
But a McCain spokesman should indeed refer to him as Prime Minister Zapatero.
posted by ericb at 9:44 AM on September 18, 2008
But a McCain spokesman should indeed refer to him as Prime Minister Zapatero.
posted by ericb at 9:44 AM on September 18, 2008
Oh my ... there you go again!
The Fish Oil Salesman: McCain Pushes Offshore Drilling Because Fish ‘Love To Be Around’ Oil Rigs
posted by ericb at 9:45 AM on September 18, 2008
The Fish Oil Salesman: McCain Pushes Offshore Drilling Because Fish ‘Love To Be Around’ Oil Rigs
posted by ericb at 9:45 AM on September 18, 2008
In the Spanish press, Zapatero is referred to as "the president"
Thanks for the correction, ericb.
"It's clear that neroli knew exactly what he was saying. He doesn't need some effete 'Spanish' press to define his terms."--neroli's camapaign manager
posted by neroli at 9:48 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
"It's clear that neroli knew exactly what he was saying. He doesn't need some effete 'Spanish' press to define his terms."--neroli's camapaign manager
posted by neroli at 9:48 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
It looks like the McCain camp is going with the spin that he meant what he said. But that doesn't make any sense. Lay aside for the moment the fact that Spain is a close ally of the United States and that making belligerent statements about its prime minister makes you look kind of nuts. If McCain knew he was talking about Spain, why on earth would he ramble about Latin America?
It's clear to me that he made a mistake--probably he just misheard the reporter, because of her accent and/or because his hearing's not what it used to be. But what does it say about his campaign that they're not willing to admit that he made an error? Is it a matter of pride? Or are they scared that voters will think he's going senile?
This would have gone away a lot faster if he'd just admitted he misspoke.
posted by EarBucket at 10:08 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's clear to me that he made a mistake--probably he just misheard the reporter, because of her accent and/or because his hearing's not what it used to be. But what does it say about his campaign that they're not willing to admit that he made an error? Is it a matter of pride? Or are they scared that voters will think he's going senile?
This would have gone away a lot faster if he'd just admitted he misspoke.
posted by EarBucket at 10:08 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Life begins at rape... ask Mayor Sarah Palin
posted by homunculus at 10:15 AM on September 18, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 10:15 AM on September 18, 2008 [5 favorites]
The Delicate Subject of McCain's Marbles:
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
At Wednesday's town hall -- his first with Sarah Palin -- he topped himself with this explanation of her credentials "She has been commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard. Fact. On September 11 a contingent of the Guard deployed to Iraq and her son happened to be one of them so I think she understands national security challenges."And here is where I, SLoG, add a nice little funny bit, except I'm laughing too hard to think of anything
Which is fine except:
The governor of Alaska doesn't command the National Guard in combat overseas.
Sarah Palin didn't deploy anyone anywhere on September 11th. She was a guest speaker at an Army deployment ceremony.
Track Palin isn't in the National Guard; he's in the Army.
Sometimes it seems like it's more than John McCain can handle, just keeping all the lies about Sarah Palin straight in his head. Tomorrow he'll say she's in the Air Force herself, on a plane she bought on eBay, bombing the bridges at Toko-Ri.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:25 AM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
geez, homonculus, that essay made me physically sick. I can't imagine being raped and then being presented with a bill for $1200 for the collection of the evidence that would allow me to prosecute the criminal. And I'd known about her decline to fund the rape kits, but not that she fired the experienced police official who put them in his budget. Or that Alaska has the highest per-capita rate of rape in the US.
posted by Miko at 10:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 10:30 AM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
A Culture of Violence Against Women: More Than Rape Kits
posted by homunculus at 10:48 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 10:48 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Guys, really...stop arguing with Konolia. She doesn't even pass the Turing test. It's a construct for fuck's sake. Quit it.
As to small towns...lived in teeny little towns in the deep South for a goodly part of my life. You know what there is to do in a teeny little Southern town? Drugs. Lots of drugs. Sex....lots and lots and LOTS of sex. Build race cars and shoot at things. Cause there's fuck all to do there otherwise.
Don't give me this Victorian romantic bullshit about the morality of small towns. I've known more swingers, drug addicts and law breakers in small towns than I've ever met in Dallas, London or Amsterdam.
posted by dejah420 at 11:23 AM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
As to small towns...lived in teeny little towns in the deep South for a goodly part of my life. You know what there is to do in a teeny little Southern town? Drugs. Lots of drugs. Sex....lots and lots and LOTS of sex. Build race cars and shoot at things. Cause there's fuck all to do there otherwise.
Don't give me this Victorian romantic bullshit about the morality of small towns. I've known more swingers, drug addicts and law breakers in small towns than I've ever met in Dallas, London or Amsterdam.
posted by dejah420 at 11:23 AM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
I really have a yenposted by Grangousier at 11:34 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
To go back once again,
Back to the place where no one wears a frown,
To see once more those super-special just plain folks
In my home town.
No fellow could ignore
The little girl next door,
She sure looked sweet in her first evening gown.
Now there's a charge for what she used to give for free
In my home town.
I remember dan, the druggist on the corner, 'e
Was never mean or ornery,
He was swell.
He killed his mother-in-law and ground her up real well,
And sprinkled just a bit
Over each banana split.
The guy that taught us math,
Who never took a bath,
Acquired a certain measure of renown,
And after school he sold the most amazing pictures
In my home town.
That fellow was no fool
Who taught our sunday school,
And neither was our kindly parson brown.
We're recording tonight so I have to leave this line out.
In my home town.
I remember sam, he was the village idiot.
And though it seems a pity, it
Was so.
He loved to burn down houses just to watch the glow,
And nothing could be done,
Because he was the mayor's son.
The guy that took a knife
And monogrammed his wife,
Then dropped her in the pond and watched her drown.
Oh, yes indeed, the people there are just plain folks
In my home town.
My Home Town
Tom Lehrer
Here's a catchy song for you .
posted by Bookhouse at 11:23 AM on September 18 [1 favorite -] [!]
¡MARIACHIS NOT MCCAIN!
[via Projects]
posted by neroli at 11:47 AM on September 18, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 11:23 AM on September 18 [1 favorite -] [!]
¡MARIACHIS NOT MCCAIN!
[via Projects]
posted by neroli at 11:47 AM on September 18, 2008
Hey, I guess we better quit. Turns out Sarah Palin has been annointed by God to smite the unbelievers.
Sorry, God!
posted by Bookhouse at 11:54 AM on September 18, 2008
Sorry, God!
posted by Bookhouse at 11:54 AM on September 18, 2008
Konolia, did you seriously reach all the way back to freaking April to revive the infamous "bitter" comment as your sole evidence that Barack disdains small-town America
I don't doubt he disdains small-town America. I certainly know from observation his supporters do.
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people. The latter are certainly more...polished. My main point is that if Obama supporters don't get that their disdain is visible and noted by those small town types, that Obama just might have his butt handed to him in the upcoming election. But, hey, that's fine with me.
posted by konolia at 11:57 AM on September 18, 2008
I don't doubt he disdains small-town America. I certainly know from observation his supporters do.
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people. The latter are certainly more...polished. My main point is that if Obama supporters don't get that their disdain is visible and noted by those small town types, that Obama just might have his butt handed to him in the upcoming election. But, hey, that's fine with me.
posted by konolia at 11:57 AM on September 18, 2008
I don't doubt he disdains small-town America.
That's silly.
their disdain is visible and noted by those small town types
Get over it. Welcome to the real world, where some of us face disdain just by walking down the street. No really, get over it.
posted by cashman at 12:10 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
That's silly.
their disdain is visible and noted by those small town types
Get over it. Welcome to the real world, where some of us face disdain just by walking down the street. No really, get over it.
posted by cashman at 12:10 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
I don't doubt he disdains small-town America. I certainly know from observation his supporters do.
I think you have "small town" confused with "ignorant" here.
And ignorant people live everywhere. (I'm not calling you one, or calling all religious people ignorant, or anything of the sort, not even trying to imply that, so stay with me to the end here please...) Don't try to deny that there are ignorant, small-minded people living in small towns. You know they exist. Everywhere. Small towns, too.
Do Obama supporters disdain ignorant people? Ignorant people who continue to repeat ignorant viewpoints like "Obama must be a Muslim because of his name" or "I'm not votin' for anycolored black man" or "Those terrorists came from Iraq, that's why we're going to bomb them back to the stone age!" Absolutely. And I'm betting that you do to, because your answers over time have proven again and again that you value education and progress for your children and grandchildren. That you want them to be informed, thoughtful people, because that's really the only way you succeed in the world.
But ignorant people aren't limited to small towns, and small towns aren't full of ignorant people.
I live in Maine -- a state that is nothing but small towns strung one after the next. I can't think of a single person I've ever met here -- Republican or Democrat -- who feels "distained" by Obama's supporters because they live in a village or small town. How could they, when those supporters are living next door to them in the same small town, living those same small town lives?
posted by anastasiav at 12:12 PM on September 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
I think you have "small town" confused with "ignorant" here.
And ignorant people live everywhere. (I'm not calling you one, or calling all religious people ignorant, or anything of the sort, not even trying to imply that, so stay with me to the end here please...) Don't try to deny that there are ignorant, small-minded people living in small towns. You know they exist. Everywhere. Small towns, too.
Do Obama supporters disdain ignorant people? Ignorant people who continue to repeat ignorant viewpoints like "Obama must be a Muslim because of his name" or "I'm not votin' for any
But ignorant people aren't limited to small towns, and small towns aren't full of ignorant people.
I live in Maine -- a state that is nothing but small towns strung one after the next. I can't think of a single person I've ever met here -- Republican or Democrat -- who feels "distained" by Obama's supporters because they live in a village or small town. How could they, when those supporters are living next door to them in the same small town, living those same small town lives?
posted by anastasiav at 12:12 PM on September 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
Vote Early
This site has voter registration deadlines, availability of early voting, and early voting start dates on a State-by-State basis.
Somewhat interesting, Nevada closes voter registration on Oct 2 (this is the earliest), while Vermont closes on Oct. 25 (this is the latest date). Make sure you are registered, you only have about two weeks in some states.
Also, availability of early voting or absentee voting varies quite a bit by state. Check your local rules to make sure you are eligible for early voting, some states require a reason to vote early or as an absentee.
Good luck, and make sure your chads are fully punched.
posted by clearly at 12:12 PM on September 18, 2008
This site has voter registration deadlines, availability of early voting, and early voting start dates on a State-by-State basis.
Somewhat interesting, Nevada closes voter registration on Oct 2 (this is the earliest), while Vermont closes on Oct. 25 (this is the latest date). Make sure you are registered, you only have about two weeks in some states.
Also, availability of early voting or absentee voting varies quite a bit by state. Check your local rules to make sure you are eligible for early voting, some states require a reason to vote early or as an absentee.
Good luck, and make sure your chads are fully punched.
posted by clearly at 12:12 PM on September 18, 2008
Make sure you are registered, you only have about two weeks in some states.
Six states (Idaho, Maine, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Wisconsin and Wyoming) allow same-day (ie: Election Day) voter registration. One (North Dakota) does not have voter registration at all.
posted by anastasiav at 12:17 PM on September 18, 2008
Six states (Idaho, Maine, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Wisconsin and Wyoming) allow same-day (ie: Election Day) voter registration. One (North Dakota) does not have voter registration at all.
posted by anastasiav at 12:17 PM on September 18, 2008
Seriously. And disdain? Disdain??? I believe that was what we all saw on display at the RNC. Utter and complete disdain. It was ugly, and it was appalling.
posted by mothershock at 12:21 PM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
posted by mothershock at 12:21 PM on September 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
Hey, I guess we better quit. Turns out Sarah Palin has been annointed by God to smite the unbelievers.
Excerpt from the e-mail: "Last week at Obama's acceptance speech, that spirit exalted itself in front of a Greek temple-like stage, and to a huge audience like in a Roman arena. Obama was portrayed as god-like. His voice thundered as a god's voice."
Wait a minute—highly charismatic speaker, huge audience, football stadium, booming voice of a god—I see what they're implying: Barack Obama is Billy Graham!
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:22 PM on September 18, 2008
Excerpt from the e-mail: "Last week at Obama's acceptance speech, that spirit exalted itself in front of a Greek temple-like stage, and to a huge audience like in a Roman arena. Obama was portrayed as god-like. His voice thundered as a god's voice."
Wait a minute—highly charismatic speaker, huge audience, football stadium, booming voice of a god—I see what they're implying: Barack Obama is Billy Graham!
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:22 PM on September 18, 2008
Can I Vote
Find out if you are registered to vote, where you are registered to vote, and the polling location that corresponds with your registration.
I just found out I am registered as a Republican. Weird.
posted by clearly at 12:24 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Find out if you are registered to vote, where you are registered to vote, and the polling location that corresponds with your registration.
I just found out I am registered as a Republican. Weird.
posted by clearly at 12:24 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The schism between rural and urban is attributable to both valid criticisms and specious preconceptions and prejudices. There's definitely disdain for the other on both sides, but what else is new? It's a bullshit nonsense red herring.
You can't convert the ignorant, you can only educate them if they want to be educated.
Stop wasting your breath and time, people.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:25 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
You can't convert the ignorant, you can only educate them if they want to be educated.
Stop wasting your breath and time, people.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:25 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
And after it rains
Theres a rainbow
And all of the colors are black
Its not that the colors aren't there
Its just imagination they lack
Everything's the same
Back in my little town
Nothing but the dead and dying
Back in my little town
posted by Meatbomb at 12:30 PM on September 18, 2008
Theres a rainbow
And all of the colors are black
Its not that the colors aren't there
Its just imagination they lack
Everything's the same
Back in my little town
Nothing but the dead and dying
Back in my little town
posted by Meatbomb at 12:30 PM on September 18, 2008
I just found out I am registered as a Republican. Weird.
Cool, that means they'll let you vote!
posted by Grangousier at 12:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
Cool, that means they'll let you vote!
posted by Grangousier at 12:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
Six states (Idaho, Maine, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Wisconsin and Wyoming) allow same-day (ie: Election Day) voter registration. One (North Dakota) does not have voter registration at all.
Little known fact: In Rhode Island, you can register to vote the same day ONLY for Presidential elections (it's a limited ballot, too). But you have to go to City Hall to register, and then go to your polling place to cast a vote. Takes a bit of dedication, but the loophole is there. [For all other elections, sadly, you need to register 30 days before.]
posted by lunit at 12:37 PM on September 18, 2008
Little known fact: In Rhode Island, you can register to vote the same day ONLY for Presidential elections (it's a limited ballot, too). But you have to go to City Hall to register, and then go to your polling place to cast a vote. Takes a bit of dedication, but the loophole is there. [For all other elections, sadly, you need to register 30 days before.]
posted by lunit at 12:37 PM on September 18, 2008
I feel sorry for you. I honestly do. You are being lied to, repeatedly, and you're not examining the information you're receiving with a careful eye for inconsistencies. At all.
And that's just in church!
posted by mrnutty at 12:37 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
And that's just in church!
posted by mrnutty at 12:37 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
From the Alaska Dispatch:
From Pep Rallies to secret emails and troopergate - a Sarah Palin Primer
Palin got help from corrupt oilman during her first run for state office
posted by dejah420 at 12:41 PM on September 18, 2008
From Pep Rallies to secret emails and troopergate - a Sarah Palin Primer
Palin got help from corrupt oilman during her first run for state office
posted by dejah420 at 12:41 PM on September 18, 2008
1001??
posted by anastasiav at 12:48 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by anastasiav at 12:48 PM on September 18, 2008
I certainly know from observation his supporters do.
Which supporters? What have you observed? All supporters, or just a subset? Please give evidence for "Obama's supporters disdain people from small towns." I currently live in a small town. I'm a supporter.
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people. The latter are certainly more...polished.
When was the last time you visited a big city? Did you see only "polished" people? In the last few months I've been in Minneapolis, Rochester, San Francisco, Manchester NH, Portland Me, and Philadelphia. I sure saw a lot of poor people, a lot of working-class people. I saw a lot of immigrants, a lot of people with young children. People waiting for the bus, working in sub shops and dry cleaners, cleaning houses and hotel rooms. I saw middle-class people streaming in to work at Kodak and Target and Wells Fargo, heading for jobs doing data entry, accounting, inventory management, HR paperwork. I saw corporate executives in shiny black cars. I saw kids playing on playgrounds and students going to classes. I saw twentysomethings gathering in coffeehouses and watering holes and moms in parks with young kids. I saw long lines outside movie theatres. I saw Little League and basketball games being played in neighborhood lots and courts. I saw blowhards pontificating in bars, and city councillors headed for meetings with big sheaves of paper in their hands. I saw firefighters and police officers. I saw soldiers. I saw street vendors and minimum wage retail clerks.
Just who is it you're imagining living in cities? Some television version of wealthy young hipsters? Regular people live in cities. They live there because there are jobs, and there's housing, and you might be able to save a buck getting by without a car, and there are things for you and your family to do, and there's opportunity to move up in your field, move around in your industry, get back to school and retrain without uprooting yourself. Sometimes people live in a city because it's their hometown; their family, heritage, church, and community life is there. Sometimes they live in a city because they want to help the most people, as doctors or teachers or social workers, and cities are where the most people are. Sometimes they live in a city because they enjoy variety and neighborliness, because they want to meet and get to know a lot of different kinds of people.
Please let this false division die. People in cities are no more a monolithic bloc than people in small towns. They are individuals, with diffeerent lives and incomes and different voting inclinations. If you believe they are different at heart from other Americans, you must ask why? Who has told you that? Do you know it firsthand, or is it an idea that has been repeatedly suggested so often that it seems it must be true? Because it's not true. My family of small-town Texas Democrats knows it's not true, as do my small-town Democratic Maine neighbors who work in defense in the Naval Shipyard and volunteer on the fire department and First Aid squad.. The gold traders and insurance brokers in Manhattan know it's not true, and know how to vote the side that's buttered, as well.
America is both more complex than this simple division suggests, and has more in common than it suggests, as well. I won't assume that reasonable people of goodwill all vote the same way according to what sort of municipality they're in. Voting records tell a different story. We aren't divided along clean lines, because we can think for ourselves. What I have hope for is that reasonable people can find we agree on most of our basic principles and hopes for the country, if we stop falling for rdiculously simplistic depictions that reduce us to one or two surface qualities..
posted by Miko at 12:50 PM on September 18, 2008 [81 favorites]
Which supporters? What have you observed? All supporters, or just a subset? Please give evidence for "Obama's supporters disdain people from small towns." I currently live in a small town. I'm a supporter.
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people. The latter are certainly more...polished.
When was the last time you visited a big city? Did you see only "polished" people? In the last few months I've been in Minneapolis, Rochester, San Francisco, Manchester NH, Portland Me, and Philadelphia. I sure saw a lot of poor people, a lot of working-class people. I saw a lot of immigrants, a lot of people with young children. People waiting for the bus, working in sub shops and dry cleaners, cleaning houses and hotel rooms. I saw middle-class people streaming in to work at Kodak and Target and Wells Fargo, heading for jobs doing data entry, accounting, inventory management, HR paperwork. I saw corporate executives in shiny black cars. I saw kids playing on playgrounds and students going to classes. I saw twentysomethings gathering in coffeehouses and watering holes and moms in parks with young kids. I saw long lines outside movie theatres. I saw Little League and basketball games being played in neighborhood lots and courts. I saw blowhards pontificating in bars, and city councillors headed for meetings with big sheaves of paper in their hands. I saw firefighters and police officers. I saw soldiers. I saw street vendors and minimum wage retail clerks.
Just who is it you're imagining living in cities? Some television version of wealthy young hipsters? Regular people live in cities. They live there because there are jobs, and there's housing, and you might be able to save a buck getting by without a car, and there are things for you and your family to do, and there's opportunity to move up in your field, move around in your industry, get back to school and retrain without uprooting yourself. Sometimes people live in a city because it's their hometown; their family, heritage, church, and community life is there. Sometimes they live in a city because they want to help the most people, as doctors or teachers or social workers, and cities are where the most people are. Sometimes they live in a city because they enjoy variety and neighborliness, because they want to meet and get to know a lot of different kinds of people.
Please let this false division die. People in cities are no more a monolithic bloc than people in small towns. They are individuals, with diffeerent lives and incomes and different voting inclinations. If you believe they are different at heart from other Americans, you must ask why? Who has told you that? Do you know it firsthand, or is it an idea that has been repeatedly suggested so often that it seems it must be true? Because it's not true. My family of small-town Texas Democrats knows it's not true, as do my small-town Democratic Maine neighbors who work in defense in the Naval Shipyard and volunteer on the fire department and First Aid squad.. The gold traders and insurance brokers in Manhattan know it's not true, and know how to vote the side that's buttered, as well.
America is both more complex than this simple division suggests, and has more in common than it suggests, as well. I won't assume that reasonable people of goodwill all vote the same way according to what sort of municipality they're in. Voting records tell a different story. We aren't divided along clean lines, because we can think for ourselves. What I have hope for is that reasonable people can find we agree on most of our basic principles and hopes for the country, if we stop falling for rdiculously simplistic depictions that reduce us to one or two surface qualities..
posted by Miko at 12:50 PM on September 18, 2008 [81 favorites]
Time to return the favor -- Miko, I wish I could favorite *that* 100 times.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:04 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:04 PM on September 18, 2008
Miko:
Thanks for not giving up on konolia.
posted by hifiparasol at 1:07 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Thanks for not giving up on konolia.
posted by hifiparasol at 1:07 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Ever find yourself wondering when John McCain gave his last press conference? Lost track of the time lapse between Sarah Palin's selection and her very first press conference? Fret no more, my friends - it's the McCain Press Watch!
posted by bmarkey at 1:21 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by bmarkey at 1:21 PM on September 18, 2008
Wow. The world (not to mention this thread) need more thoughtful people like Miko.
posted by gruchall at 1:23 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by gruchall at 1:23 PM on September 18, 2008
A Method To His Madness? McCain Could Be Making Bush’s Grudge Against Spain Official U.S. Policy
posted by homunculus at 1:36 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by homunculus at 1:36 PM on September 18, 2008
The Virginia GOP is holding a minority outreach rally Saturday. Among the featured speakers: former Senator George "Macaca" Allen!
posted by EarBucket at 1:43 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by EarBucket at 1:43 PM on September 18, 2008
No, John McCain will not meet with the terrorists who sank the Maine on 9/11. NEVER FORGET.
Besides, wasn't Spain considered Transalpine Gaul when John McCain was growing up?
***not agist, but definitely confusionist***
posted by lukemeister at 1:57 PM on September 18, 2008
Besides, wasn't Spain considered Transalpine Gaul when John McCain was growing up?
***not agist, but definitely confusionist***
posted by lukemeister at 1:57 PM on September 18, 2008
The Virginia GOP is holding a minority outreach rally Saturday. Among the featured speakers: former Senator George "Macaca" Allen!
Somebody help me out here. I'm not sure what's worse:
1 - the fact that the GOP is so unrepentantly tin-eared about the minority community that they would send, of all people, George Fucking Allen to rally them, or
2 - the fact that the GOP couldn't get any one of the many current racist Republican senators to stump for McCain; they had to get a former one instead.
posted by contessa at 1:58 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Somebody help me out here. I'm not sure what's worse:
1 - the fact that the GOP is so unrepentantly tin-eared about the minority community that they would send, of all people, George Fucking Allen to rally them, or
2 - the fact that the GOP couldn't get any one of the many current racist Republican senators to stump for McCain; they had to get a former one instead.
posted by contessa at 1:58 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The Virginia GOP is holding a minority outreach rally Saturday.
I think anything less than a minority reacharound is doomed to failure at this point.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:22 PM on September 18, 2008
I think anything less than a minority reacharound is doomed to failure at this point.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:22 PM on September 18, 2008
Please let this false division die. People in cities are no more a monolithic bloc than people in small towns. They are individuals, with diffeerent lives and incomes and different voting inclinations.
I think this election is making this abundantly clear. My own family is comprised of working class, pro-union, small town Catholics who've voted consistently Democrat since FDR. Who's polling that demographic, right? This cynical belief of "small town people vote like this, but city folk vote like this" and that either side have different values is just typical divide-and-conquer horseshit that the GOP has been hammering all the way back to Nixon. It's gotten now to the point where there are almost cartoonish depictions made (e.g., konolia's insinuation that urbanites might not put as much priority on installing "values" in their children as arts and culture). Qui bono? Blue bloods dressed in "aw shucks" costumes like the Bushes.
The act has worn thin, and hopefully this November should put the final nail in the coffin of this sick vaudeville routine.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:33 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
I think this election is making this abundantly clear. My own family is comprised of working class, pro-union, small town Catholics who've voted consistently Democrat since FDR. Who's polling that demographic, right? This cynical belief of "small town people vote like this, but city folk vote like this" and that either side have different values is just typical divide-and-conquer horseshit that the GOP has been hammering all the way back to Nixon. It's gotten now to the point where there are almost cartoonish depictions made (e.g., konolia's insinuation that urbanites might not put as much priority on installing "values" in their children as arts and culture). Qui bono? Blue bloods dressed in "aw shucks" costumes like the Bushes.
The act has worn thin, and hopefully this November should put the final nail in the coffin of this sick vaudeville routine.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:33 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Daily Show on small town values at the RNC.
Is he bringing his noose and Confederate flag?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
The Fish Oil Salesman: McCain Pushes Offshore Drilling Because Fish 'Love To Be Around' Oil Rigs
We can't bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell 'em stories that don't go anywhere - like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. 'Give me five bees for a quarter,' you’d say. Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
The Virginia GOP is holding a minority outreach rally Saturday. Among the featured speakers: former Senator George 'Macaca' Allen!
Is he bringing his noose and Confederate flag?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
konolia's insinuation that urbanites might not put as much priority on installing "values" in their children as arts and culture
The remark you are referencing had a wee bit to do with how I felt I myself was being treated in the thread. Because people who put a high priority on treating others fairly usually treat others fairly.
Marisa, if you spent as much time noticing that some folks feel insulted when told they are stupid for having their opinions (Republicans) as you do insinuating that I'm slagging urbanites, you might understand what it is I am trying to say here.
Thankfully there are plenty of fairminded people both here and in meatspace who, although they don't agree with my politics, understand that people on both sides deserve respect, if not agreement.
I am in a rather weird position. I'm connected (by marriage) to the Republican party functionaries in this state. I was born into a family of working class folks whose own origins in some cases veered pretty close to "white trash." I went to school and have socialized and worked for and with folks on the higher ends of society's spectrums. I honestly have led a Forrest Gump life in that I have seen and talked to and socialized with folks on food stamps AND folks in million dollar mansions. I have seen the honest and heartfelt values of the local small town folks, and also witnessed casual racism and closedmindedness in those same folks. Those latter two qualities have also been observed in loftier places, I must say. Finally, for a good chunk of my early married life, I was actually a Democrat, whose husband at that time was active in the local Democratic party. (yes, same husband. The party changed, not him. Thanks for asking.)
I have observed loads of political games, both from the outside and the inside. I know that Obama has played as many as the next person. So has McCain. Palin on the other hand made a career out of stomping the gameplayers and beating them at their own game. It remains to be seen whether she can handle it on a national playing field.
The one reason I think the McCain/Palin ticket has a chance is that people are desperate for someone to come along who they think will actually govern in their best interest and not play the game. I am not sure such a thing is possible but if it is and if they see Palin as that person, November will be quite interesting.
And finally, one of HIllary's old supporters (some lady named de Rothschild) is on the record as saying Obama is an elitist. The mind boggles.
posted by konolia at 3:24 PM on September 18, 2008
The remark you are referencing had a wee bit to do with how I felt I myself was being treated in the thread. Because people who put a high priority on treating others fairly usually treat others fairly.
Marisa, if you spent as much time noticing that some folks feel insulted when told they are stupid for having their opinions (Republicans) as you do insinuating that I'm slagging urbanites, you might understand what it is I am trying to say here.
Thankfully there are plenty of fairminded people both here and in meatspace who, although they don't agree with my politics, understand that people on both sides deserve respect, if not agreement.
I am in a rather weird position. I'm connected (by marriage) to the Republican party functionaries in this state. I was born into a family of working class folks whose own origins in some cases veered pretty close to "white trash." I went to school and have socialized and worked for and with folks on the higher ends of society's spectrums. I honestly have led a Forrest Gump life in that I have seen and talked to and socialized with folks on food stamps AND folks in million dollar mansions. I have seen the honest and heartfelt values of the local small town folks, and also witnessed casual racism and closedmindedness in those same folks. Those latter two qualities have also been observed in loftier places, I must say. Finally, for a good chunk of my early married life, I was actually a Democrat, whose husband at that time was active in the local Democratic party. (yes, same husband. The party changed, not him. Thanks for asking.)
I have observed loads of political games, both from the outside and the inside. I know that Obama has played as many as the next person. So has McCain. Palin on the other hand made a career out of stomping the gameplayers and beating them at their own game. It remains to be seen whether she can handle it on a national playing field.
The one reason I think the McCain/Palin ticket has a chance is that people are desperate for someone to come along who they think will actually govern in their best interest and not play the game. I am not sure such a thing is possible but if it is and if they see Palin as that person, November will be quite interesting.
And finally, one of HIllary's old supporters (some lady named de Rothschild) is on the record as saying Obama is an elitist. The mind boggles.
posted by konolia at 3:24 PM on September 18, 2008
She's also on record of calling you aredneck
posted by Mick at 3:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Mick at 3:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin on the other hand made a career out of stomping the gameplayers and beating them at their own game.
There's no "on the other hand", there, though. When you beat someone at their own game, and their game is being a gameplayer, you are a gameplayer. The news coming out of Alaska has Palin looking increasingly like a cronyist bully as far as Alaskan politics goes. I'm not sure what the distinction you're trying to draw here is.
posted by cortex at 3:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
There's no "on the other hand", there, though. When you beat someone at their own game, and their game is being a gameplayer, you are a gameplayer. The news coming out of Alaska has Palin looking increasingly like a cronyist bully as far as Alaskan politics goes. I'm not sure what the distinction you're trying to draw here is.
posted by cortex at 3:32 PM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
The one reason I think the McCain/Palin ticket has a chance is that people are desperate for someone to come along who they think will actually govern in their best interest and not play the game. I am not sure such a thing is possible but if it is and if they see Palin as that person, November will be quite interesting.
So they hope McCain drops dead in office?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:46 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
So they hope McCain drops dead in office?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:46 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
I have seen the honest and heartfelt values of the local small town folks, and also witnessed casual racism and closedmindedness in those same folks. Those latter two qualities have also been observed in loftier places, I must say.
Again, is not lying one of those "heartfelt values"? Every qualification presented for Governor Palin a lie. Shouldn't that disqualify her? Please either put up or shut up.
Also, are you saying people in "loftier places" don't have honest and heartfelt values?
posted by kirkaracha at 3:53 PM on September 18, 2008
The Palin/McCain Administration: Sarah Flips The Ticket During A Rally (video).
posted by ericb at 4:14 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 4:14 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Again, is not lying one of those "heartfelt values"? Every qualification presented for Governor Palin a lie.
Another Palin Lie: Claimed She Took Pay Cut As Mayor, Actually Got Raise.
posted by ericb at 4:27 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Another Palin Lie: Claimed She Took Pay Cut As Mayor, Actually Got Raise.
posted by ericb at 4:27 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Liar, liar, your pants are on fire!
Palin says Alaska supplies 20 percent of U.S. energy. Not true. Not even close.posted by ericb at 4:34 PM on September 18, 2008
Sarah ("I'm Against Federal Earmarks") Palin's Push for Earmarks.
“Most people cannot grasp that a specific person is a pathological liar until a) it bites them in the ass and b) there isn't a shadow of another explanation for the bite marks. If only a) is true, they will come up with endless excuses. If only b) is true, they will rationalize away why the bite wasn't so harsh or wasn't even a bite at all given the context.posted by ericb at 4:38 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Those of us who observe that pathological lying is both possible and more common than generally assumed frequently get ourselves into your situation: people can't handle being faced with this sad fact and blame us for pointing it out.
Like Will Ferrell's character Mugatu in Zoolander, who was frustrated because no one else realized Blue Steel was the same as all Zoolander's other expressions, we start to feel like we're taking crazy pills.
I don't care one way or another about Sarah Palin as a person, but anyone who ‘gets’ pathological lying can see there's way, way too much about what she says that's demonstrably false to be explained any other way.”*
The Lying Game -- "Like George W. Bush, McCain and Palin have to lie. Because if they told the truth about their policies, they'd lose the election."
posted by ericb at 4:45 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by ericb at 4:45 PM on September 18, 2008
Marisa, if you spent as much time noticing that some folks feel insulted when told they are stupid for having their opinions (Republicans) as you do insinuating that I'm slagging urbanites, you might understand what it is I am trying to say here.
I heard you just fine: small town folks believe in values like being a decent human being, while urbanites place a higher priority on arts and culture. We get it already.
You also "hope" that urbantites "also" teach their children to be good people, as if that could even be drawn into question. I find it boggling that you could even cast such a doubt on another person. I have no doubt in my mind that you, Palin, or even the most hardcore neocon on the planet are trying to raise their children to be decent human beings. There's actually room for doubt in your mind that Democrats do? What the hell?
You talk a lot about having seen so many different world, and so many different types of people, yet you seem downright determined to draw clear and distinct lines between urban and rural priorities and values. I personally believe the values of raising children to be decent human beings, of wanting to leave the world a better place than you found it, to take care of the people who need care are not correspondent to population density, just as ignorance, bigotry and intolerance aren't either. Come join us here in America some day, you might like it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:51 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
I heard you just fine: small town folks believe in values like being a decent human being, while urbanites place a higher priority on arts and culture. We get it already.
You also "hope" that urbantites "also" teach their children to be good people, as if that could even be drawn into question. I find it boggling that you could even cast such a doubt on another person. I have no doubt in my mind that you, Palin, or even the most hardcore neocon on the planet are trying to raise their children to be decent human beings. There's actually room for doubt in your mind that Democrats do? What the hell?
You talk a lot about having seen so many different world, and so many different types of people, yet you seem downright determined to draw clear and distinct lines between urban and rural priorities and values. I personally believe the values of raising children to be decent human beings, of wanting to leave the world a better place than you found it, to take care of the people who need care are not correspondent to population density, just as ignorance, bigotry and intolerance aren't either. Come join us here in America some day, you might like it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:51 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Bush DOJ Doesn’t Even Pretend To Take Threats To Obama Seriously
posted by homunculus at 5:10 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 5:10 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
"Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that "some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in pubic premises before the snow flies." It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list," - Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
This is recycled from the mammoth Palin thread, where Pegler's odiousness was also cited.
This is recycled from the mammoth Palin thread, where Pegler's odiousness was also cited.
[R]eminds me of a story an oncologist friend of mine told me regarding konolia's and dawson's home state. He was a medical student at Duke University in 1963 and working in the hospital. Although at the time NC was a beacon of enlightenment among southern states regarding race relations, things were still going slowly, so there were two public wards, one, named for Ostler, for whites and another for blacks. He was in the Ostler ward, named for the eminent physician, when the news of JFK's assassination came over the television. The ward broke out in cheering. As he told me this story, my friend began to weep. I had never seen him do this before.posted by Mental Wimp at 5:40 PM on September 18, 2008
Social change moves slowly in the south, not the least because some politicians are eager to exploit the historical hatreds. Those enlightened individuals who nevertheless support these politicians are evil, because they know better.
I heard you just fine: small town folks believe in values like being a decent human being, while urbanites place a higher priority on arts and culture. We get it already.
Marisa, it is obvious you aren't getting it. If you wish to discuss anything with me further it will be by memail or metatalk.
posted by konolia at 6:01 PM on September 18, 2008
Marisa, it is obvious you aren't getting it. If you wish to discuss anything with me further it will be by memail or metatalk.
posted by konolia at 6:01 PM on September 18, 2008
Oh, and I meant to add this quote to my last post:
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people
I said that.
Now, I'm done.
posted by konolia at 6:12 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm not claiming small town people are any better than big city people
I said that.
Now, I'm done.
posted by konolia at 6:12 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
it is obvious you aren't getting it.
Pheh. Typical small town arrogance/elitism/condescension.
Can't we all get along?
posted by psmealey at 6:22 PM on September 18, 2008
Pheh. Typical small town arrogance/elitism/condescension.
Can't we all get along?
posted by psmealey at 6:22 PM on September 18, 2008
Palin on fiscal policy:
“Dissapointed that taxpayers are called upon to bailout another one. Certainly AIG though with the construction bonds that they’re holding and with the insurance that they are holding very, very impactful to Americans so you know the shot that has been called by the Feds its understandable but very, very disappointing that taxpayers are called upon for another one.”
Palin on energy policy:
"Oil and coal? Of course, it's a fungible commodity and they don't flag, you know, the molecules, where it's going and where it's not. But in the sense of the Congress today, they know that there are very, very hungry domestic markets that need that oil first. So, I believe that what Congress is going to do, also, is not to allow the export bans to such a degree that it's Americans that get stuck to holding the bag without the energy source that is produced here, pumped here. It's got to flow into our domestic markets first."
Is there anyone who'd still like to argue that this woman has any idea what she's talking about? About anything?
posted by EarBucket at 7:20 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
“Dissapointed that taxpayers are called upon to bailout another one. Certainly AIG though with the construction bonds that they’re holding and with the insurance that they are holding very, very impactful to Americans so you know the shot that has been called by the Feds its understandable but very, very disappointing that taxpayers are called upon for another one.”
Palin on energy policy:
"Oil and coal? Of course, it's a fungible commodity and they don't flag, you know, the molecules, where it's going and where it's not. But in the sense of the Congress today, they know that there are very, very hungry domestic markets that need that oil first. So, I believe that what Congress is going to do, also, is not to allow the export bans to such a degree that it's Americans that get stuck to holding the bag without the energy source that is produced here, pumped here. It's got to flow into our domestic markets first."
Is there anyone who'd still like to argue that this woman has any idea what she's talking about? About anything?
posted by EarBucket at 7:20 PM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Is there anyone who'd still like to argue that this woman has any idea what she's talking about? About anything?
Brain hurts just attempting to parse her sentences. Like Bush, but with less of a command of spoken English.
posted by brain cloud at 7:39 PM on September 18, 2008
Brain hurts just attempting to parse her sentences. Like Bush, but with less of a command of spoken English.
posted by brain cloud at 7:39 PM on September 18, 2008
I've said it before, but every time she opens her mouth in front of reporters, she reminds me of nothing so much as this:
“I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps. And uh…I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq, everywhere like such as…and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.”
She would scare me less if she'd just admit she didn't know anything, but would work really hard to learn what she needs to know. But it's clear that she doesn't think it matters that she doesn't know anything. She'll just prattle off whatever comes to mind. It's like McCain thought Bush was too full of insecurity and self-doubt.
posted by EarBucket at 7:43 PM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
“I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps. And uh…I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq, everywhere like such as…and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.”
She would scare me less if she'd just admit she didn't know anything, but would work really hard to learn what she needs to know. But it's clear that she doesn't think it matters that she doesn't know anything. She'll just prattle off whatever comes to mind. It's like McCain thought Bush was too full of insecurity and self-doubt.
posted by EarBucket at 7:43 PM on September 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
EarBucket -- Palin's nonsensical responses have to be some sort of 'MadLibs-on-Steroids' subterfuge. WTF!!! I think she's been programmed by handlers to respond to certain words. She blurts out partial responses amended with others. She is way above her head -- and above her "pay grade," as they are so wont to say!
posted by ericb at 8:05 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 8:05 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin: A New Kind of Leader Unskilled and Unaware of it
posted by maryh at 8:05 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by maryh at 8:05 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
konolia: Marisa, if you spent as much time noticing that some folks feel insulted when told they are stupid for having their opinions (Republicans) as you do insinuating that I'm slagging urbanites, you might understand what it is I am trying to say here.
So your contention is that folks feel insulted for having certain opinions, and that lefty-types look down on those people? It helps the discussion if we include some examples here.
If anyone, small town person, suburban person, city person, believes, for example, that Obama is a Muslim, then that is an ignorant person. When a person says he/she isn't voting for Obama because he is black, that is a racist (and by default, an ignorant person). When a person says "Let's go to war with Iraq, cause the Muslims that caused 9/11 need to be brought to justice", then that is an ignorant person.
Maybe "lefties" wouldn't "look down" on those with these opinions if the opinions were based on any kind of objective facts or commonly held beliefs. The three examples I gave you are not. They are opinions based on ignorance of the facts. "Small town" has little or nothing to do with it, though you will find a lot of those opinions in small towns. You'll also find them in larger areas. If a person has ignorant opinions and can't do themselves the favor of confirming whether or not they're true/have real value, and then has a pity party because some "snob" is looking down on them...well boo fucking hoo. Konolia, would you defend any of those opinions? Really, I want to know.
I have observed loads of political games, both from the outside and the inside. I know that Obama has played as many as the next person. So has McCain. Palin on the other hand made a career out of stomping the gameplayers and beating them at their own game.
Palin is a bully who abuses the power given to her by the people. She would be a continuation of the secrecy and cronyism of the Bush administration. She makes McCain look almost principled in comparison, even amidst his penchant for lying on the campaign trail.
And finally, one of HIllary's old supporters (some lady named de Rothschild) is on the record as saying Obama is an elitist. The mind boggles.
My mind doesn't. Who is de Rothschild and why should I care?
posted by zardoz at 8:16 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
So your contention is that folks feel insulted for having certain opinions, and that lefty-types look down on those people? It helps the discussion if we include some examples here.
If anyone, small town person, suburban person, city person, believes, for example, that Obama is a Muslim, then that is an ignorant person. When a person says he/she isn't voting for Obama because he is black, that is a racist (and by default, an ignorant person). When a person says "Let's go to war with Iraq, cause the Muslims that caused 9/11 need to be brought to justice", then that is an ignorant person.
Maybe "lefties" wouldn't "look down" on those with these opinions if the opinions were based on any kind of objective facts or commonly held beliefs. The three examples I gave you are not. They are opinions based on ignorance of the facts. "Small town" has little or nothing to do with it, though you will find a lot of those opinions in small towns. You'll also find them in larger areas. If a person has ignorant opinions and can't do themselves the favor of confirming whether or not they're true/have real value, and then has a pity party because some "snob" is looking down on them...well boo fucking hoo. Konolia, would you defend any of those opinions? Really, I want to know.
I have observed loads of political games, both from the outside and the inside. I know that Obama has played as many as the next person. So has McCain. Palin on the other hand made a career out of stomping the gameplayers and beating them at their own game.
Palin is a bully who abuses the power given to her by the people. She would be a continuation of the secrecy and cronyism of the Bush administration. She makes McCain look almost principled in comparison, even amidst his penchant for lying on the campaign trail.
And finally, one of HIllary's old supporters (some lady named de Rothschild) is on the record as saying Obama is an elitist. The mind boggles.
My mind doesn't. Who is de Rothschild and why should I care?
posted by zardoz at 8:16 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I have seen the honest and heartfelt values of the local small town folks, and also witnessed casual racism and closedmindedness in those same folks. Those latter two qualities have also been observed in loftier places, I must say.
konolia -- can you please define for us what you mean by "loftier places?" What do you mean by "small town values?" How do those values differ from ex-urban, suburban, urban, inner-city, etc. values?
And to repeat myself once again: "...can you [also] please define 'culture' for us ... and, as asked above, what you mean by 'snob,' 'inferior' and 'superior?'"
Please don't tell me we should take this exchange to MefiMail. You would do yourself well by answering these questions in this thread, so that we might better understand your position and stance on crucial issues we all face this election cycle.
posted by ericb at 8:20 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
konolia -- can you please define for us what you mean by "loftier places?" What do you mean by "small town values?" How do those values differ from ex-urban, suburban, urban, inner-city, etc. values?
And to repeat myself once again: "...can you [also] please define 'culture' for us ... and, as asked above, what you mean by 'snob,' 'inferior' and 'superior?'"
Please don't tell me we should take this exchange to MefiMail. You would do yourself well by answering these questions in this thread, so that we might better understand your position and stance on crucial issues we all face this election cycle.
posted by ericb at 8:20 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin misrepresents her record on the Bridge to Nowhere for 11th. time.
posted by ericb at 8:42 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 8:42 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The McCain-Palin campaign has now misrepresented Palin’s record with regard to the Bridge to Nowhere at least 36 times.
posted by ericb at 8:43 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 8:43 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
I've said it before, but every time she opens her mouth in front of reporters, she reminds me of nothing so much as this: -- Earbucket
You're not the only one.
I have seen another mashup where Palin is shown speaking to Charlie Gibson while Miss Teen USA's voice comes out of her mouth, but I can't find it right now.
Frankly, I think this would be a ballsy campaign commercial for Obama to run. Even though I know that's insane. Payback for "Britney" et al.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:56 PM on September 18, 2008
You're not the only one.
I have seen another mashup where Palin is shown speaking to Charlie Gibson while Miss Teen USA's voice comes out of her mouth, but I can't find it right now.
Frankly, I think this would be a ballsy campaign commercial for Obama to run. Even though I know that's insane. Payback for "Britney" et al.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:56 PM on September 18, 2008
Wow, how have you guys missed this one?
“We’re going to do a few new things also,” she said at a rally in Cedar Rapids. “For instance, as Alaska’s governor, I put the government’s checkbook online so that people can see where their money’s going. We’ll bring that kind of transparency, that responsibility, and accountability back. We’re going to bring that back to D.C.”
There’s just one problem with proposing to put the federal checkbook online – somebody’s already done it. His name is Barack Obama.
[...continued]
posted by neroli at 9:48 PM on September 18, 2008
“We’re going to do a few new things also,” she said at a rally in Cedar Rapids. “For instance, as Alaska’s governor, I put the government’s checkbook online so that people can see where their money’s going. We’ll bring that kind of transparency, that responsibility, and accountability back. We’re going to bring that back to D.C.”
There’s just one problem with proposing to put the federal checkbook online – somebody’s already done it. His name is Barack Obama.
[...continued]
posted by neroli at 9:48 PM on September 18, 2008
zardoz: Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild - as in these Rothschilds, and she lives in this little place when not running her holdings company, jet-setting around the globe, and calling Obama elitist.
Of course, maybe her crowd thinks of themselves as so high up that it's an insult to call someone merely "elite."
posted by casarkos at 10:12 PM on September 18, 2008
Of course, maybe her crowd thinks of themselves as so high up that it's an insult to call someone merely "elite."
posted by casarkos at 10:12 PM on September 18, 2008
Sarah Quaylin: "Actually, Dan Quayle is looking pretty good right now."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:00 PM on September 18, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 11:00 PM on September 18, 2008
the whole "community organizer" think could be straight-up honest work for the good of the people. It could also be a planned entry-level, political-resume-building step to build up cred before he begins his political career by kicking all his opponents off the ballot.
In the real world, that's called "job training." Being a successful community organizer before becoming a politician seems like a damn fine idea to me. I prefer proven competence.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:42 PM on September 18, 2008
In the real world, that's called "job training." Being a successful community organizer before becoming a politician seems like a damn fine idea to me. I prefer proven competence.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:42 PM on September 18, 2008
Maybe "lefties" wouldn't "look down" on those with these opinions if the opinions were based on any kind of objective facts or commonly held beliefs.
That is, in fact, a fact. It is almost exclusively the reason konolia's "opinions" (they're uninformed assumption more than opinion, IMO) are unpopular on MeFi. It's not that we hates Republicans: it's that we hate ignorance of fact.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions: greater morality requires balancing all the issues, not blindly defaulting to a single issue. Ignoring the facts is unwise and shortsighted.
If you're sighting down an Armageddon within your lifetime, I suppose you can always figure 'screw the long-term consequences.' "I'm gonna act like Christ is coming down the day after the President signs his very first act — the Abortion Abolishment Act."
Mind, that thoroughly screws over your own kids if you turn out, like so many others have, to be mistaken...
posted by five fresh fish at 12:20 AM on September 19, 2008
That is, in fact, a fact. It is almost exclusively the reason konolia's "opinions" (they're uninformed assumption more than opinion, IMO) are unpopular on MeFi. It's not that we hates Republicans: it's that we hate ignorance of fact.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions: greater morality requires balancing all the issues, not blindly defaulting to a single issue. Ignoring the facts is unwise and shortsighted.
If you're sighting down an Armageddon within your lifetime, I suppose you can always figure 'screw the long-term consequences.' "I'm gonna act like Christ is coming down the day after the President signs his very first act — the Abortion Abolishment Act."
Mind, that thoroughly screws over your own kids if you turn out, like so many others have, to be mistaken...
posted by five fresh fish at 12:20 AM on September 19, 2008
Wow. Read Life Begins at Rape and then get your friends to read it. What a brutal, awful thing to do to other humans: charge them to be swabbed and given an drug that prevents implantation (just like what happens 3 out of 4 fertilizations). All the pleasure of feeling that you're being violated again, and you get to pay for it!
Fucking. Inhuman.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:31 AM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Fucking. Inhuman.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:31 AM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Marisa, it is obvious you aren't getting it. If you wish to discuss anything with me further it will be by memail or metatalk.
I've pulled out quotes of things you've said in this very thread, wherein you quite clearly state that small town folk and city folk have different sets of values. If you've now changed your mind, great. But don't run in circles and then say that I "don't get it". I'm using all my telepathic and clairvoyant abilities to try and win the lottery as it is; I can't spare my psychic powers to try and divine if you mean something completely different than what you say.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
I've pulled out quotes of things you've said in this very thread, wherein you quite clearly state that small town folk and city folk have different sets of values. If you've now changed your mind, great. But don't run in circles and then say that I "don't get it". I'm using all my telepathic and clairvoyant abilities to try and win the lottery as it is; I can't spare my psychic powers to try and divine if you mean something completely different than what you say.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Organizers of an anti-Iran rally next week have dropped Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin from the event, days after Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton pulled out. The move angered Republican presidential nominee John McCain, who accused Democratic rivals of having his running mate disinvited. All Americans should agree on the need to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, he said. Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor called the charge "another dishonorable lie from John McCain." He said the Obama campaign had planned to send its own surrogate to the rally. A number of American Jewish organizers are staging the rally in New York City against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They had announced earlier this week that the event would feature both Clinton and Palin.And by "awkward" they mean "universe-imploding".
Clinton aides fumed over what they saw as a slight by organizers, because they had no idea until told by reporters that Palin was supposed to attend, too.
The New York senator had agreed weeks ago to attend the rally, but abruptly backed out late Tuesday after learning of the pairing. Clinton, whose historic bid for the presidency came up short, has sought to avoid a public face-off with Palin. A Clinton-Palin double billing at such an event would have been awkward.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:11 AM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
A few things about the rape kit story, which damn well should be the undoing of Sarah Palin. I'm amazed this hasn't had more press. It's everything that's evil about her and what she stands for.
You will hear often that Alaska has the highest rate of forcible rape in the US, but you will almost never hear why.
There is one and only one reason for that is the very high population of Native people, long regarded as fair game for rapists and criminals and poorly protected by the state and, too often, inept tribal law enforcement authorities. I have *personally* heard more than one white Alaskan man make jokes about raping underage (!) Native girls for sport. (And yes, I did something about the more serious instance of this I encountered, though I am not at liberty to say what.)
Such jokes are *common* expressions of masculine and white power in rural Alaska. So is the rape they refer to. And this isn't just Alaska. Rape of Native American women by whites taking advantage of their vulnerability is quite common in other Western states as well. But it's worse in Alaska.
People don't understand Alaska. They think it's like any other rural American state. It's not. The presence of Native people is much stronger and larger than in other Western states, the history of their disenfranchisement, and their resistance to it, much more recent. And the exertion of Anglo power over Natives is much more brutal and subject to much less oversight. Alaska is bigger and far more rural and far less policed than any other state in the US, by a long shot.
So Sarah Palin's "pay for your own rape kit" policy, while it may have been targeting the inclusion of emergency contraception in the kit (you want to bet this was justified as "the government won't pay for contraception for rape victims, or anyone else," and not directly by the cost of rape kits), was among her various anti-Native policy initiatives and statements, as I document in a post above.
You think I am kidding? Here's Amnesty International's report on the issue. You will there note the statistic that one in three Native Alaskan women will be raped in her lifetime. From personal observation, I'd say that might be a conservative number based on a narrow definition of "rape."
Make no mistake: Alaska is founded on a racist and genocidal stealing of Native lands just like the lower 48. The only difference up there is that it is still going on big time, and that oil wealth and a later start to the genocide gave Native Alaskans a little more of a fighting chance than the Indians of the lower 48 had.
From Shannyn Moore's "Life Begins at Rape" (posted by fff above)
Alaska has the nation’s highest per-capita rate of forcible rape. A disproportionate number of rape and sexual assault victims are Native Alaskan women. Alaska Native people in Anchorage were 9.7 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than others living in the city between 2000 and 2003. Alaska crime statistics never seemed to make a “Northern Exposure” episode. But this isn’t about statistics-real lives were affected by Palin’s regressive policies. One thing Alaska can’t seem to export is the fundamental information around a woman’s rights. Alaska “liberalized” abortion laws before Roe v. Wade. Our dirty secret had to do with a woman’s right to be safe from rapists. This right to choose was not only threatened, but abolished with Sarah Palin’s archaic policy as Mayor of Wasilla. The rape kit included emergency contraception. To be sure, emergency contraception is not, nor does it cause an abortion. In fact, ec prevents pregnancy and therefore reduces abortions.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:44 AM on September 19, 2008 [19 favorites]
You will hear often that Alaska has the highest rate of forcible rape in the US, but you will almost never hear why.
There is one and only one reason for that is the very high population of Native people, long regarded as fair game for rapists and criminals and poorly protected by the state and, too often, inept tribal law enforcement authorities. I have *personally* heard more than one white Alaskan man make jokes about raping underage (!) Native girls for sport. (And yes, I did something about the more serious instance of this I encountered, though I am not at liberty to say what.)
Such jokes are *common* expressions of masculine and white power in rural Alaska. So is the rape they refer to. And this isn't just Alaska. Rape of Native American women by whites taking advantage of their vulnerability is quite common in other Western states as well. But it's worse in Alaska.
People don't understand Alaska. They think it's like any other rural American state. It's not. The presence of Native people is much stronger and larger than in other Western states, the history of their disenfranchisement, and their resistance to it, much more recent. And the exertion of Anglo power over Natives is much more brutal and subject to much less oversight. Alaska is bigger and far more rural and far less policed than any other state in the US, by a long shot.
So Sarah Palin's "pay for your own rape kit" policy, while it may have been targeting the inclusion of emergency contraception in the kit (you want to bet this was justified as "the government won't pay for contraception for rape victims, or anyone else," and not directly by the cost of rape kits), was among her various anti-Native policy initiatives and statements, as I document in a post above.
You think I am kidding? Here's Amnesty International's report on the issue. You will there note the statistic that one in three Native Alaskan women will be raped in her lifetime. From personal observation, I'd say that might be a conservative number based on a narrow definition of "rape."
Make no mistake: Alaska is founded on a racist and genocidal stealing of Native lands just like the lower 48. The only difference up there is that it is still going on big time, and that oil wealth and a later start to the genocide gave Native Alaskans a little more of a fighting chance than the Indians of the lower 48 had.
From Shannyn Moore's "Life Begins at Rape" (posted by fff above)
Alaska has the nation’s highest per-capita rate of forcible rape. A disproportionate number of rape and sexual assault victims are Native Alaskan women. Alaska Native people in Anchorage were 9.7 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than others living in the city between 2000 and 2003. Alaska crime statistics never seemed to make a “Northern Exposure” episode. But this isn’t about statistics-real lives were affected by Palin’s regressive policies. One thing Alaska can’t seem to export is the fundamental information around a woman’s rights. Alaska “liberalized” abortion laws before Roe v. Wade. Our dirty secret had to do with a woman’s right to be safe from rapists. This right to choose was not only threatened, but abolished with Sarah Palin’s archaic policy as Mayor of Wasilla. The rape kit included emergency contraception. To be sure, emergency contraception is not, nor does it cause an abortion. In fact, ec prevents pregnancy and therefore reduces abortions.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:44 AM on September 19, 2008 [19 favorites]
And I will say this: konolia, justify your "culture of life" in light of this issue. Making women bear their rapists' babies is nothing short of pure evil.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:49 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:49 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Writing Raven (Native Tlingit/Athabascan) on Sarah Palin's egregious policies and attitudes toward Native People and on the spuriousness of Todd Palin's claim to a Native (Yup'ik) identity, which is being reported as an uncritical fact in the lower 48.
Indian Country Today (the newspaper of record in Native America) on McCain/Palin's egregious policies toward Native issues.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:57 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Indian Country Today (the newspaper of record in Native America) on McCain/Palin's egregious policies toward Native issues.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:57 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
And the exertion of Anglo power over Natives is much more brutal a
Actually, I need to correct this statement. I don't think "brutal" is the word I want, since there are different forms and degree of brutality to White/Native relations everywhere in the US . . .
I meant something more like "brute," as in "direct." Native Alaskans control some significant resources in their sovereign territories, and constitute a significant constituency for any statewide politician. They are also divided against each other on various levels. So both Natives in general, and particular tribes, are direct actors in everyday politics -- their affairs are not forgotten, isolated to the reservation, or seen as problems of an underclass in quite the same way as for Native Americans in the lower 48.
The political history of Native sovereignty in Alaska is complex and fascinating stuff. We'll be learning a lot more about it now, I guess.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:29 AM on September 19, 2008
Actually, I need to correct this statement. I don't think "brutal" is the word I want, since there are different forms and degree of brutality to White/Native relations everywhere in the US . . .
I meant something more like "brute," as in "direct." Native Alaskans control some significant resources in their sovereign territories, and constitute a significant constituency for any statewide politician. They are also divided against each other on various levels. So both Natives in general, and particular tribes, are direct actors in everyday politics -- their affairs are not forgotten, isolated to the reservation, or seen as problems of an underclass in quite the same way as for Native Americans in the lower 48.
The political history of Native sovereignty in Alaska is complex and fascinating stuff. We'll be learning a lot more about it now, I guess.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:29 AM on September 19, 2008
"Are there any Paraguayans here? No? Well, of course, their request for subsidies was not, uh, Paraguayan as it is, as it were, uh, the United States government would never have if the President, our President had not and as far as I know that's the way it will always be. Is that clear?"
posted by EarBucket at 6:43 AM on September 19, 2008
posted by EarBucket at 6:43 AM on September 19, 2008
I have *personally* heard more than one white Alaskan man make jokes about raping underage (!) Native girls for sport... You will there note the statistic that one in three Native Alaskan women will be raped in her lifetime.
Damn it, fourcheesemac, I was hoping to have a nice quiet Friday, and after reading your comment I'm going to spend the whole day with the war drums pounding behind my eyes.
How the fuck can something like this be going on in our country? It's absolutely unconscionable.
posted by quin at 7:31 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Damn it, fourcheesemac, I was hoping to have a nice quiet Friday, and after reading your comment I'm going to spend the whole day with the war drums pounding behind my eyes.
How the fuck can something like this be going on in our country? It's absolutely unconscionable.
posted by quin at 7:31 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I am in a rather weird position. I'm connected (by marriage) to the Republican party functionaries in this state... for a good chunk of my early married life, I was actually a Democrat, whose husband at that time was active in the local Democratic party. (yes, same husband. The party changed, not him. Thanks for asking.)
What's odd about this last long comment, konolia, is that you're not talking about you. You're talking about your husband, as though your political views and his are Siamese twinlike. I didn't ask about your husband, thanks. How do you account for your transformation from Democrat to Republican? Also, what changes did you see in the Democratic Party?
I'm also wondering whether you feel similarly about the hanges in the Republican Party. I don't know when you made your switch, but the Gop has changed a great deal in the past 30 years. Where once it stood for fiscal responsibility, today it is known for not balancing the budget and living within the nation's means, history of deficit spending that runs $400 billion a year, doubling the national debtwithin just eight years. It once stood for encouraging business development to provide good jobs and entrepreneurship opportunity to the middle and working classes and encourage growth; today, it gives generous handouts in the form of tax loopholes and subsidies to giant global corporations, driving small business owners and their good jobs out of the market, and leaving only minimum wage service jobs here while skilled work goes overseas. Tax cuts have gone to the wealthiest 1% of Americas, while the rest of us struggle to pay our tax bills and meet rising expenses. In the first six years of the Bush Administration, he and the Congress increased federal spending by more than 50% (during all the Clinton years it was only 32%; Bush Sr. manager 23%). Federal spending in 2006 was 2.7 trillion - that's $9,000 per American to fund one year of federal government -- or $36,000 for a family of four -- some of which I'm sure we could all find a use for if we were able to hang onto it. . The Republican Party used to stand for small, limited government; today, we live in an America in which Republican leadership created an enormous new federal bureaucratic agency, expanded the federal education department to take on tasks formerly left to the states, massively increaxed federal spending on Medicare, gave the FBI and CIA new powers to look into Americans' activities, and inserted itself through legislation into private and personal family matters. The GOP once wanted to promote democracy worldwide and increase national security; today, its mismanagement of the war has alienated former allies and radicalized America's enemies, making us if anything far more unsafe than we were on the day of 9/11.
I'm not a Republican, but if I were, I'd be proufoundly concerned about the direction the Party had taken away from its founding principles. Its values have changed - and the Bush Administration led the way, but they couldn't have done it without the assistance of all the Republicans in Congress and at the state and local level and in the judiciary.
What concerns me is that I see Republicans putting self-interest over what's best for the country. That's also what upsets me in your comments, konolia; you describe your support for Republicans in terms of your family and community identity - it's your husband's party, it's a "small-town" party, it's the 'team' you're on. But I don't think these policies are ones that you really support, in your heart of hearts. It seems that the Party has left people like you behind in its quest to improve conditions for the wealthiest owners of the biggest businesses.
What they have done is make sure they've kept social conservatism in the party platform, so that they could hang on to the vots of those people who pretty much disagree with everything the Party is doing except for its stance on reproductive rights and sexual orientation. But I really think this is a lose-lose scenario. Social conservatives feel that they have to vote for the Party because they feel they have no other choice, so the Party can do whatever it wants on all other issues (most of which are really bad for the middle-class families social conservatives say they want so much to support). Meanwhile, in the more progressive party, we tend to be deprived of the passionate voices that want to see an America that takes care of its own, supports families, improves education and health care, and creates good jobs but also wants to ensure dignity for religious activities and have moral discussions about social ills - those discussions were among the driving forces in the Civil Rights movement, for instance, and I'm sad to see that some people who espouse Christian principles have left the party over single issues. I'd love to see a Democratic Party that contained more Christians who, though they might oppose abortion for instance, were willing to do so by developing strategies to prevent unplanned pregnancy and provide access to family planning.
There are ways to make progress on our common goals without encroaching on individual freedom, and I wish we could do so. If there was ever a time to do that, it's now. We have to put the country first. I know that's McCain's slogan, but his voting history and actions don't support that goal. What we're talking about in this election is nothing less than the survival of America. We stand a chance of no longer being a first-world nation and losing our world leadership and strength if we continue on the negative path GOP leadership has set. But if we can overcome our differences enough to agree that our country needs to return to the common principles that made it strong - fiscal health, support for families and small businesses, international leadership, fairness and excellence at all levels of government - we stand a chance of saving it. I've talked to a lot of Republicans who are ready to signal to their party and to the nation as a whole that they don't approve of the GOP that produced Bush and McCain. It's not the Party they signed on for, and not the one that has the best interests of average Americans at heart. The GOP leadership has betrayed the ideals its supporters so badly that it may be time to rise above loyalty to party, and consider first loyalty to country.
posted by Miko at 7:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [35 favorites]
What's odd about this last long comment, konolia, is that you're not talking about you. You're talking about your husband, as though your political views and his are Siamese twinlike. I didn't ask about your husband, thanks. How do you account for your transformation from Democrat to Republican? Also, what changes did you see in the Democratic Party?
I'm also wondering whether you feel similarly about the hanges in the Republican Party. I don't know when you made your switch, but the Gop has changed a great deal in the past 30 years. Where once it stood for fiscal responsibility, today it is known for not balancing the budget and living within the nation's means, history of deficit spending that runs $400 billion a year, doubling the national debtwithin just eight years. It once stood for encouraging business development to provide good jobs and entrepreneurship opportunity to the middle and working classes and encourage growth; today, it gives generous handouts in the form of tax loopholes and subsidies to giant global corporations, driving small business owners and their good jobs out of the market, and leaving only minimum wage service jobs here while skilled work goes overseas. Tax cuts have gone to the wealthiest 1% of Americas, while the rest of us struggle to pay our tax bills and meet rising expenses. In the first six years of the Bush Administration, he and the Congress increased federal spending by more than 50% (during all the Clinton years it was only 32%; Bush Sr. manager 23%). Federal spending in 2006 was 2.7 trillion - that's $9,000 per American to fund one year of federal government -- or $36,000 for a family of four -- some of which I'm sure we could all find a use for if we were able to hang onto it. . The Republican Party used to stand for small, limited government; today, we live in an America in which Republican leadership created an enormous new federal bureaucratic agency, expanded the federal education department to take on tasks formerly left to the states, massively increaxed federal spending on Medicare, gave the FBI and CIA new powers to look into Americans' activities, and inserted itself through legislation into private and personal family matters. The GOP once wanted to promote democracy worldwide and increase national security; today, its mismanagement of the war has alienated former allies and radicalized America's enemies, making us if anything far more unsafe than we were on the day of 9/11.
I'm not a Republican, but if I were, I'd be proufoundly concerned about the direction the Party had taken away from its founding principles. Its values have changed - and the Bush Administration led the way, but they couldn't have done it without the assistance of all the Republicans in Congress and at the state and local level and in the judiciary.
What concerns me is that I see Republicans putting self-interest over what's best for the country. That's also what upsets me in your comments, konolia; you describe your support for Republicans in terms of your family and community identity - it's your husband's party, it's a "small-town" party, it's the 'team' you're on. But I don't think these policies are ones that you really support, in your heart of hearts. It seems that the Party has left people like you behind in its quest to improve conditions for the wealthiest owners of the biggest businesses.
What they have done is make sure they've kept social conservatism in the party platform, so that they could hang on to the vots of those people who pretty much disagree with everything the Party is doing except for its stance on reproductive rights and sexual orientation. But I really think this is a lose-lose scenario. Social conservatives feel that they have to vote for the Party because they feel they have no other choice, so the Party can do whatever it wants on all other issues (most of which are really bad for the middle-class families social conservatives say they want so much to support). Meanwhile, in the more progressive party, we tend to be deprived of the passionate voices that want to see an America that takes care of its own, supports families, improves education and health care, and creates good jobs but also wants to ensure dignity for religious activities and have moral discussions about social ills - those discussions were among the driving forces in the Civil Rights movement, for instance, and I'm sad to see that some people who espouse Christian principles have left the party over single issues. I'd love to see a Democratic Party that contained more Christians who, though they might oppose abortion for instance, were willing to do so by developing strategies to prevent unplanned pregnancy and provide access to family planning.
There are ways to make progress on our common goals without encroaching on individual freedom, and I wish we could do so. If there was ever a time to do that, it's now. We have to put the country first. I know that's McCain's slogan, but his voting history and actions don't support that goal. What we're talking about in this election is nothing less than the survival of America. We stand a chance of no longer being a first-world nation and losing our world leadership and strength if we continue on the negative path GOP leadership has set. But if we can overcome our differences enough to agree that our country needs to return to the common principles that made it strong - fiscal health, support for families and small businesses, international leadership, fairness and excellence at all levels of government - we stand a chance of saving it. I've talked to a lot of Republicans who are ready to signal to their party and to the nation as a whole that they don't approve of the GOP that produced Bush and McCain. It's not the Party they signed on for, and not the one that has the best interests of average Americans at heart. The GOP leadership has betrayed the ideals its supporters so badly that it may be time to rise above loyalty to party, and consider first loyalty to country.
posted by Miko at 7:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [35 favorites]
She's just like Cheney -- Palin Refuses To Say Whether She Would Be Part Of Executive Branch.
posted by ericb at 8:03 AM on September 19, 2008
posted by ericb at 8:03 AM on September 19, 2008
Is anyone else a little in love with Miko right now?
posted by bluishorange at 8:08 AM on September 19, 2008 [8 favorites]
posted by bluishorange at 8:08 AM on September 19, 2008 [8 favorites]
Another "senior moment?" Or, just merely clueless?
In economic policy speech, McCain says ‘chairman of the FEC’ — not SEC — should resign.
In economic policy speech, McCain says ‘chairman of the FEC’ — not SEC — should resign.
"In his speech today on the crisis in the financial markets, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) referred to the Federal Election Commission (FEC) when he was trying to refer to the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC):posted by ericb at 8:10 AM on September 19, 2008'That’s why I believe that the chairman of the FEC should resign and leave office and be replaced.'McCain slightly amended his statement from yesterday, when he said he would 'fire' SEC Chairman Christopher Cox. After it was reported that a 'commissioner of an independent regulatory commission cannot be removed by the president,' McCain softened his demand and said he would request the chairman’s resignation."
But I don't think these policies are ones that you really support, in your heart of hearts. It seems that the Party has left people like you behind in its quest to improve conditions for the wealthiest owners of the biggest businesses.
The only way to change things is to participate.
posted by konolia at 8:11 AM on September 19, 2008
The only way to change things is to participate.
posted by konolia at 8:11 AM on September 19, 2008
The only way to change things is to participate.
I fully agree. You have a lot of choices about where to put your participation. Do you feel your participation has had an impact on the Party during the last eight years? What was that impact?
posted by Miko at 8:15 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I fully agree. You have a lot of choices about where to put your participation. Do you feel your participation has had an impact on the Party during the last eight years? What was that impact?
posted by Miko at 8:15 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
It seems that the Party has left people like you behind in its quest to improve conditions for the wealthiest owners of the biggest businesses. What they have done is make sure they've kept social conservatism in the party platform, so that they could hang on to the vots of those people who pretty much disagree with everything the Party is doing except for its stance on reproductive rights and sexual orientation.
And we know from David Kuo, former White House insider and member of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Bush and others courted the conservative religious right while privately disparaging them.
And we know from David Kuo, former White House insider and member of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Bush and others courted the conservative religious right while privately disparaging them.
“[David Kuo, an evangelical Christian and card-carrying member of the religious right] says the White House was a place that cynically used religion for political ends and that White House aides ridiculed the very Christian leaders who helped bring Mr. Bush to office.posted by ericb at 8:31 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
In his book [Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction], Kuo wrote that White House staffers would roll their eyes at evangelicals, calling them ‘nuts’ and ‘goofy.’
Asked if that was really the attitude, Kuo tells [CBS’s Leslie] Stahl, ‘Oh, absolutely. You name the important Christian leader and I have heard them mocked by serious people in serious places.’
Specifically, Kuo says people in the White House political affairs office referred to Pat Robertson as ‘insane,’ Jerry Falwell as ‘ridiculous,’ and that James Dobson ‘had to be controlled.’ And President Bush, he writes, talked about his compassion agenda, but never really fought for it.”
Yes the pay-for-your-own-rape-kit story is horrifying, but it won't be very shocking for North Carolinians. As I mentioned long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away (that other Palin thread) sadly, up until this summer the state of North Carolina billed the victims of rape for their rape kit.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:33 AM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
The bills just throw the attack up in your face over and over again and make it that much harder for the wounds to heal," said a 36-year-old Wake County woman who was raped in 2006. Months after her attack, the bills for WakeMed hospital began arriving, urging her to pay the $600 that her insurance didn't cover. [...]Even now the state will not be covering the full cost.
Now, for patients with insurance, hospitals will bill the insurer, then settle any co-payments and deductibles with the state. Bills for uninsured patients will be sent, as they have been, directly to the state's Rape Victims Assistance Program.
the state will pay the hospital a total of $800, including $200 for ambulance transportation. The program, or its counterpart Victims Crime Compensation Fund, likely will be able to pay for other medical treatment needed because of an attack.My question, when the story broke last spring, was how did this stay secret for so long? Why the sudden outrage? Hospital personnel, insurance agents, victims, friends and family, they must have all known this was going on, but there was never any outrage. I still don't know why the medical insurance companies are expected to pay for part of the exam.
The rates are far below what hospitals had been billing the state for rape kit exam services. The average bill to the program last year was $1,600.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:33 AM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
That does raise a lot of questions for me. What happens when people get mugged or shot by an attacker and have to go to the ER? It's sort of analoguous - the victim needs treatment, but the hospital staff also has to document evidence for law enforcement. Who pays?
The pay issue is revolting, but that article was even more interesting because it gave the context - a state with a rape epidemic which government has not addressed. Regardless of who pays for the kits, that's really the larger concern.
posted by Miko at 9:10 AM on September 19, 2008
The pay issue is revolting, but that article was even more interesting because it gave the context - a state with a rape epidemic which government has not addressed. Regardless of who pays for the kits, that's really the larger concern.
posted by Miko at 9:10 AM on September 19, 2008
The only way to change things is to participate.
That's absurd. History is replete with examples of people who have changed things by refusing to participate. Now, I'll grant you that the question of whether an institution is better changed from within or by refusing to participate is not an easy one, and must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but this bumper-sticker generality is just plain false.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:40 AM on September 19, 2008
That's absurd. History is replete with examples of people who have changed things by refusing to participate. Now, I'll grant you that the question of whether an institution is better changed from within or by refusing to participate is not an easy one, and must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but this bumper-sticker generality is just plain false.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:40 AM on September 19, 2008
I'm also just very skeptical that the actions of individual Republicans who are not especially well connected or wealthy have much, if any, impact on the overall direction of the GOP. The party isn't directed by its base membership anymore. I don't see how individuals of principle can affect its direction, as long as the leaders give their allegiance first to the financial elite and serve mostly those interests before attending to the affairs of regular Americans.
The dominance of the party by wealthy corporate leaders has worked as long as they could count on faithful supporters continuing to vote for them. But at this point, I think the only way for honest Republicans to send the message that they don't approve of the Party's hijacking is to remove that popular support. Voting Republican again keeps the same people in power and the same thinking in place; they'll see no need to change if the support is still there, as it always has been. Voting for them indicates that you think this direction is a healthy one. You don't fix what doesn't appear to be broken. This is a referndum on the Party's direction as much as it is a national election.
And yes, you can change parties from within; but it takes time, and a whole lot of volunteer work and willingness of really good people to give up their time to public service. That kind of change is slow (as I know from waiting about a decade for my party to finally change). Time is one thing we don't have. We can't afford four more years - heck, even two more years - of present fiscal policy and foreign relations; we'll be crippled at the end of that, and the pace of change within the party won't outpace the leaking away of our nation's health.
One solution for concerned Republicans might be to vote for another candidate, or no Presidential candidate, also voting for people you definitely approve of on the rest of the ticket and abstaining from those you don't support, and then spend the next few years redoubling efforts to be active at the local and state levels to rebuild the party along the lines of its traditional platform. I'd love to see a Republican Party that led responsibly and argued about issues of substance, even when I don't agree with the party's stance. At least then I know we're coming from the same place: love of country.That sort of Party I can respect. This present-day version - it's not motivated by that.
posted by Miko at 10:00 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
The dominance of the party by wealthy corporate leaders has worked as long as they could count on faithful supporters continuing to vote for them. But at this point, I think the only way for honest Republicans to send the message that they don't approve of the Party's hijacking is to remove that popular support. Voting Republican again keeps the same people in power and the same thinking in place; they'll see no need to change if the support is still there, as it always has been. Voting for them indicates that you think this direction is a healthy one. You don't fix what doesn't appear to be broken. This is a referndum on the Party's direction as much as it is a national election.
And yes, you can change parties from within; but it takes time, and a whole lot of volunteer work and willingness of really good people to give up their time to public service. That kind of change is slow (as I know from waiting about a decade for my party to finally change). Time is one thing we don't have. We can't afford four more years - heck, even two more years - of present fiscal policy and foreign relations; we'll be crippled at the end of that, and the pace of change within the party won't outpace the leaking away of our nation's health.
One solution for concerned Republicans might be to vote for another candidate, or no Presidential candidate, also voting for people you definitely approve of on the rest of the ticket and abstaining from those you don't support, and then spend the next few years redoubling efforts to be active at the local and state levels to rebuild the party along the lines of its traditional platform. I'd love to see a Republican Party that led responsibly and argued about issues of substance, even when I don't agree with the party's stance. At least then I know we're coming from the same place: love of country.That sort of Party I can respect. This present-day version - it's not motivated by that.
posted by Miko at 10:00 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Is Sarah Palin A Closet John Bircher?: A 1995 photo shows Sarah Palin reading an article, Con-Con Call by Don Fotheringham, from the John Birch Society's magazine, The New American. The blog, Bag News Notes, also has an interesting blog post about the photo.
posted by jonp72 at 10:26 AM on September 19, 2008
posted by jonp72 at 10:26 AM on September 19, 2008
I'm also just very skeptical that the actions of individual Republicans who are not especially well connected or wealthy have much
We have some connections.
I don't see how individuals of principle can affect its direction, as long as the leaders give their allegiance first to the financial elite and serve mostly those interests before attending to the affairs of regular Americans.
I don't see this as just a Republican problem.
Btw, I am not too fond of Falwellesque types of political participation. I'm thinking that the change I 'd like to see will come from a lot of individuals. Not a "moral majority" type movement. My husband is not one of those types, nor am I. He's simply a Republican Party official who happens to be Christian. People who think their salvation will be found in a voting booth, so to speak, are mistaken.
That having been said, I feel a moral obligation to vote my conscience. In some cases that forces me to be a single issue voter. In others, I might have political views (on things like the economy) that are practical rather than blatantly spiritual. I probably have different views on the best way to get to a particular desired political end than most of you-even if we agree on what we would like to see happen, I believe path A will get us there, and perhaps you believe path B or C.
Any large scale organization-Republican, Democrat, etc etc...will almost always be filled with corruption simply because many people who seek power are prone to it. And many people who simply want to make a difference get caught up in it. I know the Republican party has warts. I also know the Democrats have them as well. That's what we have and are stuck with.
Meanwhile, while we are arguing about who to vote for for President, please remember that the legislative branch has as much or more to do with where this country is going and how well it is or is not working than a President does.
posted by konolia at 10:45 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
We have some connections.
I don't see how individuals of principle can affect its direction, as long as the leaders give their allegiance first to the financial elite and serve mostly those interests before attending to the affairs of regular Americans.
I don't see this as just a Republican problem.
Btw, I am not too fond of Falwellesque types of political participation. I'm thinking that the change I 'd like to see will come from a lot of individuals. Not a "moral majority" type movement. My husband is not one of those types, nor am I. He's simply a Republican Party official who happens to be Christian. People who think their salvation will be found in a voting booth, so to speak, are mistaken.
That having been said, I feel a moral obligation to vote my conscience. In some cases that forces me to be a single issue voter. In others, I might have political views (on things like the economy) that are practical rather than blatantly spiritual. I probably have different views on the best way to get to a particular desired political end than most of you-even if we agree on what we would like to see happen, I believe path A will get us there, and perhaps you believe path B or C.
Any large scale organization-Republican, Democrat, etc etc...will almost always be filled with corruption simply because many people who seek power are prone to it. And many people who simply want to make a difference get caught up in it. I know the Republican party has warts. I also know the Democrats have them as well. That's what we have and are stuck with.
Meanwhile, while we are arguing about who to vote for for President, please remember that the legislative branch has as much or more to do with where this country is going and how well it is or is not working than a President does.
posted by konolia at 10:45 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
We can't afford four more years - heck, even two more years - of present fiscal policy and foreign relations; we'll be crippled at the end of that, and the pace of change within the party won't outpace the leaking away of our nation's health
And I submit that we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy and probably economic policy as well.
And there are a lot of people in meat space that agree with me.
posted by konolia at 10:47 AM on September 19, 2008
And I submit that we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy and probably economic policy as well.
And there are a lot of people in meat space that agree with me.
posted by konolia at 10:47 AM on September 19, 2008
By the way, for those who would bring this up-the more I have been learning about Obama lately the less I want him anywhere near the White House.
I used to prefer him over Hillary. That has changed.
I still think he is a nice man. But the more I learn about him the more I hope he loses in November.
posted by konolia at 10:49 AM on September 19, 2008
I used to prefer him over Hillary. That has changed.
I still think he is a nice man. But the more I learn about him the more I hope he loses in November.
posted by konolia at 10:49 AM on September 19, 2008
Good, we get it.
Too bad he's going to win by a landslide.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2008
Too bad he's going to win by a landslide.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2008
The only way to change things is to participate.
You seem to have confused "participate" with "collaborate." Your support of the Republican party goes against your Christian values in every way but one. I don't see where in the Bible Christ discussed when it was ok to kill people in other countries because your government dislikes theirs. You will let them get away with murder, as long as they promise to only murder those who've escaped the womb.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
You seem to have confused "participate" with "collaborate." Your support of the Republican party goes against your Christian values in every way but one. I don't see where in the Bible Christ discussed when it was ok to kill people in other countries because your government dislikes theirs. You will let them get away with murder, as long as they promise to only murder those who've escaped the womb.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:55 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
konolia, can you talk specifically about what things youre learning about it, and what specifically is turning you off? As far as understanding where other folks are coming from, details on the front are certainly more interesting to me than just knowing you don't like him as a candidate (much as I presume you get more use out of hearing why someone distrusts or dislikes Palin than from just hearing that said distrust/dislike exists).
posted by cortex at 10:56 AM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex at 10:56 AM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
And there are a lot of people in meat space that agree with me.
Luckily, there are more who do not agree with you. Today's Gallup, 49/44 Obama, confirming the widespread trend in all the polls. Key states are coming nicely around -- strong leads in recent Michigan and Pennsylvania polls, and we're either leading or tied or within the margin of error in Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Colorado, Nevada, New Hampshire, and North Carolina. Hell, we're within the margin of error in Indiana.
When a black liberal democrat is within the margin of error in Indiana, take it to the bank. McCain is going to be a pathetic footnote in history. And you can smell the desperation.
Now that we know konolia has a family connection to the GOP, we know what she's about here. Alas, this thread (and the last one) have become excellent resources for those of us working to elect Obama. We'll never convince the konolias of the world, but then that's why the number of evangelical voters and the percentage of people who still support George W. Bush are almost exactly the same 25 percent: dead enders.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Luckily, there are more who do not agree with you. Today's Gallup, 49/44 Obama, confirming the widespread trend in all the polls. Key states are coming nicely around -- strong leads in recent Michigan and Pennsylvania polls, and we're either leading or tied or within the margin of error in Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Colorado, Nevada, New Hampshire, and North Carolina. Hell, we're within the margin of error in Indiana.
When a black liberal democrat is within the margin of error in Indiana, take it to the bank. McCain is going to be a pathetic footnote in history. And you can smell the desperation.
Now that we know konolia has a family connection to the GOP, we know what she's about here. Alas, this thread (and the last one) have become excellent resources for those of us working to elect Obama. We'll never convince the konolias of the world, but then that's why the number of evangelical voters and the percentage of people who still support George W. Bush are almost exactly the same 25 percent: dead enders.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
the more I have been learning about Obama lately the less I want him anywhere near the White House.
What is it you're learning? Wouldn't you want us to know it, so that we might not vote for him if it's a serious problem? I definitely want to know what you think makes him an unwise choice. You stand the chance of picking up votes if you have some convincing crituqies.
I know the Republican party has warts. I also know the Democrats have them as well.
Yes, but they're not equivalent. "Lesser of two evils" is a fallacy, and one that people who believe in the staus quo find useful. Corruption scandals, impeachable offenses, secrecy, backroom deals, incompetence - the party in power is in failure. They are simply not governing well. We will never get a perfect leader, and don't need one; just better leadership. The record and composition of today's Democratic Party is nowhere near as sullied and filthy as that of the Republicans.
We have some connections.
Don't we all. But I'd be very surprised if you have the kind I'm talking about.
posted by Miko at 11:08 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
What is it you're learning? Wouldn't you want us to know it, so that we might not vote for him if it's a serious problem? I definitely want to know what you think makes him an unwise choice. You stand the chance of picking up votes if you have some convincing crituqies.
I know the Republican party has warts. I also know the Democrats have them as well.
Yes, but they're not equivalent. "Lesser of two evils" is a fallacy, and one that people who believe in the staus quo find useful. Corruption scandals, impeachable offenses, secrecy, backroom deals, incompetence - the party in power is in failure. They are simply not governing well. We will never get a perfect leader, and don't need one; just better leadership. The record and composition of today's Democratic Party is nowhere near as sullied and filthy as that of the Republicans.
We have some connections.
Don't we all. But I'd be very surprised if you have the kind I'm talking about.
posted by Miko at 11:08 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
And I submit that we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy and probably economic policy as well.
If you could back that statement up with some sort of reasoning, we'd be having a delightful debate of political ideas. Instead we're really back where we started,and nobody really wants to keep playing that game.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:11 AM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
If you could back that statement up with some sort of reasoning, we'd be having a delightful debate of political ideas. Instead we're really back where we started,and nobody really wants to keep playing that game.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:11 AM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
TPM Grand Old Docket: The Grand Ole Docket tracks trial dates, court appearances and sentencing hearings for players in the current array of national political scandals. But not just any crook can make it on the Docket - it's reserved for perps who are unambiguously under investigation (just a news report is not enough).
posted by Miko at 11:14 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 11:14 AM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
And I submit that we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy and probably economic policy as well.
I'm not sure who this "we" is, since none of us here are war profiteers or oil barons.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:25 AM on September 19, 2008 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure who this "we" is, since none of us here are war profiteers or oil barons.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:25 AM on September 19, 2008 [5 favorites]
Josh Marshall on McCain's Spain gaffe:
In itself mishearing or misunderstanding a question isn't the worse thing in the world, though being too proud to ask for the question to be repeated and going with the assumption that the mystery leader must be some Hugo Chavez type character out of Woody Allen's Bananas does suggest a certain recklessness of character.posted by hifiparasol at 11:25 AM on September 19, 2008
...
And whatever the misunderstanding, let's face it. When a president or presidential nominees gets confused in an interview, appears to say that a European country is in the Western Hemisphere and inadvertently makes highly belligerent statements toward a major ally, that's a big problem.
By the way, for those who would bring this up-the more I have been learning about Obama lately the less I want him anywhere near the White House.
konolia in the interests of having a conversation instead of "a referendum on what konolia thinks about everything", would you mind actually talking about what you are talking about instead of merely alluding to it? I appreciate your trying to give the conservative/Republican perspective on some of this, but this sort of I Spy guessing game about what's on your mind wastes everyone's time and inhibits real conversation.
posted by jessamyn at 11:42 AM on September 19, 2008 [18 favorites]
konolia in the interests of having a conversation instead of "a referendum on what konolia thinks about everything", would you mind actually talking about what you are talking about instead of merely alluding to it? I appreciate your trying to give the conservative/Republican perspective on some of this, but this sort of I Spy guessing game about what's on your mind wastes everyone's time and inhibits real conversation.
posted by jessamyn at 11:42 AM on September 19, 2008 [18 favorites]
> Hello, I am Eliza.
* Can you tell me a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy?
> Don't you believe that I can tell you a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy?
* I do.
> OK... "Can me tell you a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy". Tell me more.
* I don't think he will be. Prove to me otherwise.
> Don't you really think he will be. Prove to you otherwise?
* Yes.
> I see.
* Federal deficit. Tell me how Obama will make it worse.
> What is it that you really want to know?
* Sure.
> OK... "Federal deficit. Tell you how Obama will make it worse". Tell me more.
posted by maxwelton at 11:48 AM on September 19, 2008 [7 favorites]
* Can you tell me a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy?
> Don't you believe that I can tell you a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy?
* I do.
> OK... "Can me tell you a bit more about how Obama is bad for the economy". Tell me more.
* I don't think he will be. Prove to me otherwise.
> Don't you really think he will be. Prove to you otherwise?
* Yes.
> I see.
* Federal deficit. Tell me how Obama will make it worse.
> What is it that you really want to know?
* Sure.
> OK... "Federal deficit. Tell you how Obama will make it worse". Tell me more.
posted by maxwelton at 11:48 AM on September 19, 2008 [7 favorites]
Gov. Sarah Palin's favorable/unfavorable ratings have suffered a stunning 21 point collapse in just one week, according to Research 2000 polling. Last week, 52% approved and 35% disapproved of the GOP vice presidential nominee (+17 net). This week, 42% approved and 46% disapprove (-4 net).
posted by Mick at 11:51 AM on September 19, 2008
posted by Mick at 11:51 AM on September 19, 2008
And I submit that we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy and probably economic policy as well.
Can you please tell us what you don't like about Obama's positions on foreign and economic policy?
Here, I'll help out. Here's the Obama/Biden official policy positions: foreign and economic.
Each hyperlink leads to quite a bit of information and detailed plans laid out by Obama/Biden for addressing these issues.
posted by ericb at 12:27 PM on September 19, 2008
Can you please tell us what you don't like about Obama's positions on foreign and economic policy?
Here, I'll help out. Here's the Obama/Biden official policy positions: foreign and economic.
Each hyperlink leads to quite a bit of information and detailed plans laid out by Obama/Biden for addressing these issues.
posted by ericb at 12:27 PM on September 19, 2008
Irony of the Day:
Mr. McCain has criticized the S.E.C., saying that it had allowed “speculators and hedge funds turn our markets into a casino.”
McCain loves casinos:
In the past decade, he has played on Mississippi riverboats, on Indian land, in Caribbean craps pits and along the length of the Las Vegas Strip. Back in 2005 he joined a group of journalists at a magazine-industry conference in Puerto Rico, offering betting strategy on request. "Enjoying craps opens up a window on a central thread constant in John's life," says John Weaver, McCain's former chief strategist, who followed him to many a casino. "Taking a chance, playing against the odds." (Time, 7/2/08)
posted by neroli at 12:28 PM on September 19, 2008
Mr. McCain has criticized the S.E.C., saying that it had allowed “speculators and hedge funds turn our markets into a casino.”
McCain loves casinos:
In the past decade, he has played on Mississippi riverboats, on Indian land, in Caribbean craps pits and along the length of the Las Vegas Strip. Back in 2005 he joined a group of journalists at a magazine-industry conference in Puerto Rico, offering betting strategy on request. "Enjoying craps opens up a window on a central thread constant in John's life," says John Weaver, McCain's former chief strategist, who followed him to many a casino. "Taking a chance, playing against the odds." (Time, 7/2/08)
posted by neroli at 12:28 PM on September 19, 2008
With the money saved on those rape kits, Palin could sure buy a lot of severed wolf paws
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 12:30 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 12:30 PM on September 19, 2008
we can't afford four years of Obama's leadership regarding foreign policy
President Bush and Senator McCain mocked Obama and called him naive for saying he'd negotiate with Iran. Now Defense Secretary Robert Gates and five former secretaries of state agree with Obama. Ready to lead? He's already leading.
McCain said he'd follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell, but he wouldn't go into Pakistan. Obama said he'd attack terrorists in Pakistan, and McCain called him naive and irresponsible. Now we're attacking terrorists in Pakistan. Ready to lead? He's already leading.
Obama proposed a 16-month timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq. Now the Iraqi Prime Minister, Bush, and McCain say it's a good timeframe. Ready to lead? He's already leading.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:47 PM on September 19, 2008 [21 favorites]
After reading this interview with Bart Gellman,author of Angler, a recent book about the Dick Cheney Vice Presidency, i'm starting to wonder if The whole Palin thing isn't a bit of a Red Herring.
All hand-wringing aside, Sarah Palin is no Dick Cheney. Sure, if McCain dies, we're looking at a Mad max style apocalyptic wasteland. But should he win and also live through a full term, all evidence seems to point towards Palin being a pretty useless VP.
On the other hand we have Biden, who like Cheney, knows how the sausage is made. Does he step into the VP spot, see the keys to diabolical power that Cheney left in the desk drawer and lose his damn mind? I know I would. What would a Biden shadow government look like?
If I was a Republican lawmaker right now, I'd be terrified of the precedents that Bush/Cheney are leaving for the next team. I wonder if an Obama win starts to look like an inevitability, will we start to see some of the current Administration turn into whistleblowers.
posted by billyfleetwood at 12:50 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
All hand-wringing aside, Sarah Palin is no Dick Cheney. Sure, if McCain dies, we're looking at a Mad max style apocalyptic wasteland. But should he win and also live through a full term, all evidence seems to point towards Palin being a pretty useless VP.
On the other hand we have Biden, who like Cheney, knows how the sausage is made. Does he step into the VP spot, see the keys to diabolical power that Cheney left in the desk drawer and lose his damn mind? I know I would. What would a Biden shadow government look like?
If I was a Republican lawmaker right now, I'd be terrified of the precedents that Bush/Cheney are leaving for the next team. I wonder if an Obama win starts to look like an inevitability, will we start to see some of the current Administration turn into whistleblowers.
posted by billyfleetwood at 12:50 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Kirkaracha I'd love to see that as the next Obama ad.
posted by like_neon at 12:58 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by like_neon at 12:58 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
There's no arguing with someone who won't even consider factual evidence.
As for all this small town shit, explain to me why Obama is leading in Iowa by between 8 and 14 points? You have heard of Iowa, right? It's sort of right in the middle, and it has a few small towns.
I guess Iowans are just the wrong sort of small town white people, too "cosmopolitan" from all those trips to Cedar Rapids to catch the ballet and drink French wine.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:59 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
As for all this small town shit, explain to me why Obama is leading in Iowa by between 8 and 14 points? You have heard of Iowa, right? It's sort of right in the middle, and it has a few small towns.
I guess Iowans are just the wrong sort of small town white people, too "cosmopolitan" from all those trips to Cedar Rapids to catch the ballet and drink French wine.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:59 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
I guess Iowans are just the wrong sort of small town white people, too "cosmopolitan" from all those trips to Cedar Rapids to catch the ballet and drink French wine.
Oh, they're cosmopolitan in Iowa. The first by-the-hour hotel I ever saw was in Des Moines.
posted by COBRA! at 1:26 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, they're cosmopolitan in Iowa. The first by-the-hour hotel I ever saw was in Des Moines.
posted by COBRA! at 1:26 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama supports tough, direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. Now is the time to pressure Iran directly to change their troubling behavior. Obama and Biden would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress
See, this SOUNDS wonderful. But Iran doesn't give a crap about the WTO, economic investments and normal diplomatic relations.
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
Obama is naive. Very naive.
posted by konolia at 1:31 PM on September 19, 2008
See, this SOUNDS wonderful. But Iran doesn't give a crap about the WTO, economic investments and normal diplomatic relations.
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
Obama is naive. Very naive.
posted by konolia at 1:31 PM on September 19, 2008
But Iran doesn't give a crap about the WTO, economic investments and normal diplomatic relations.
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
Also, they wear bones in their noses and call airplanes BIG SILVER SKY BIRD.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:39 PM on September 19, 2008 [15 favorites]
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
Also, they wear bones in their noses and call airplanes BIG SILVER SKY BIRD.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:39 PM on September 19, 2008 [15 favorites]
It is naive to think that the hopes and desires of an entire nation can be summed up in a single short sentence.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:44 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:44 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Iran doesn't give a crap about the WTO, economic investments and normal diplomatic relations.
Looks like they've got a lot in common with the United States. You guys should talk!
posted by Grangousier at 1:45 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Looks like they've got a lot in common with the United States. You guys should talk!
posted by Grangousier at 1:45 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Obama is naive. Very naive.
I'm a lot more worried about what the saber-rattling and clumsy intimidation of the Bush Administration will do to an unpredictable nuclear power in the Middle East. Thsy threatening, hamfisted policy is likely to backfire. That's an extremely dangerous game to play, especially when we are not at our strongest militarily. I think Iran is a thorny issue for any President, as it is for all heads of state who have yet to find a solution to Iran's threat,but interestingly, McCain seems to think that Iran does "give a crap" about the WTO, economic incentives, and international relations:
Obama's Republican rival, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.), has lauded the European efforts, saying in April that the coalition "deserves praise for its great efforts to present a positive endgame: an Iran with far-reaching economic incentives, external support for a civilian nuclear energy program and integration into the international community."
Once again, it kind of looks like you need another candidate.
Obama's ideas are unconventional, but his reasoning is solid. He's exceedingly well informed and has terrific advisers. Diplomatic efforts have not been exhausted, and if Iran did attack Israel, obviously we would come to Israel's aid. I have no trust for the strategic foreign policy thinking of the present administration. Look at the mess they've made. Their ideas don't work on the world stage.
posted by Miko at 1:58 PM on September 19, 2008
I'm a lot more worried about what the saber-rattling and clumsy intimidation of the Bush Administration will do to an unpredictable nuclear power in the Middle East. Thsy threatening, hamfisted policy is likely to backfire. That's an extremely dangerous game to play, especially when we are not at our strongest militarily. I think Iran is a thorny issue for any President, as it is for all heads of state who have yet to find a solution to Iran's threat,but interestingly, McCain seems to think that Iran does "give a crap" about the WTO, economic incentives, and international relations:
Obama's Republican rival, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.), has lauded the European efforts, saying in April that the coalition "deserves praise for its great efforts to present a positive endgame: an Iran with far-reaching economic incentives, external support for a civilian nuclear energy program and integration into the international community."
Once again, it kind of looks like you need another candidate.
Obama's ideas are unconventional, but his reasoning is solid. He's exceedingly well informed and has terrific advisers. Diplomatic efforts have not been exhausted, and if Iran did attack Israel, obviously we would come to Israel's aid. I have no trust for the strategic foreign policy thinking of the present administration. Look at the mess they've made. Their ideas don't work on the world stage.
posted by Miko at 1:58 PM on September 19, 2008
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
Obama is naive. Very naive.
I don't think you know much about Iran, konolia. You see, konolia, Iran has long been a well educated, progressive country, konolia, with a large middle class. Unfortunately, konolia, the US has dicked with their governance multiple times, starting around the turn of the last century until the now, konolia, and it has led to the periodic imposition of extreme regimes, from the Shah to the Ayatollah Khomeini to the present faceless mullahs. You should recognize, konolia, that the current Iranian president's extreme rhetoric regarding Israel is a tool to influence other Islamic states, konolia, and certainly does not encompass the full range of the wishes and desires of its ruling class or its middle class, who long to be an important part of the larger community. Even you, konolia, should be careful of single-issue thinking about a large and diverse country like Iran. I know, konolia, that that would require expanding your sphere of information beyond you and your fellow/spousal Republican operatives, but, konolia, I am sure you have it in you despite these handicaps and your one-issue focus. Go for it, konolia!
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:01 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Obama is naive. Very naive.
I don't think you know much about Iran, konolia. You see, konolia, Iran has long been a well educated, progressive country, konolia, with a large middle class. Unfortunately, konolia, the US has dicked with their governance multiple times, starting around the turn of the last century until the now, konolia, and it has led to the periodic imposition of extreme regimes, from the Shah to the Ayatollah Khomeini to the present faceless mullahs. You should recognize, konolia, that the current Iranian president's extreme rhetoric regarding Israel is a tool to influence other Islamic states, konolia, and certainly does not encompass the full range of the wishes and desires of its ruling class or its middle class, who long to be an important part of the larger community. Even you, konolia, should be careful of single-issue thinking about a large and diverse country like Iran. I know, konolia, that that would require expanding your sphere of information beyond you and your fellow/spousal Republican operatives, but, konolia, I am sure you have it in you despite these handicaps and your one-issue focus. Go for it, konolia!
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:01 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Heh. From konolia's link:
I have a friend who is both feminist and left-leaning. I asked her why they hate Palin so much. She said, ‘Because she’s had it all: family, career. And she did it without a man like Bill Clinton helping her. She did it on her own.’
Are we really supposed to believe that there's a single human being on the planet who actually talks like this?
posted by EarBucket at 2:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
I have a friend who is both feminist and left-leaning. I asked her why they hate Palin so much. She said, ‘Because she’s had it all: family, career. And she did it without a man like Bill Clinton helping her. She did it on her own.’
Are we really supposed to believe that there's a single human being on the planet who actually talks like this?
posted by EarBucket at 2:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Something about Sarah
posted by konolia at 1:55 PM on September 19 [+] [!]
From the link, referring to Palin:
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:09 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by konolia at 1:55 PM on September 19 [+] [!]
From the link, referring to Palin:
Who is obviously a warm, civic-minded, talented mother of five?Yes, we have recently seen now warm and civic-minded she is. And talented? You betcha!
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:09 PM on September 19, 2008
Palin as an environmental steward:
But while Mayor Stein tried to impose some reason on Wasilla's helter-skelter development, and its growing pressures on Mat-Su Valley's environmental treasures, when Sarah Palin took his place, she quickly announced, "Wasilla is open for business."posted by hifiparasol at 2:12 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
"That's for sure," Church said. "Sarah was so eager for big-box stores to move in that she allowed Fred Meyer to build right on Wasilla Lake, and her handpicked successor, Dianne Keller, has done the same with Target."
...
Wasilla City Council member Dianne Woodruff hears the same lament about her town all the time. "Everywhere in Alaska, you hear people say, 'We don't want to be another Wasilla.' We're not just the state's meth capital, we're the ugly box-store capital. Was Sarah a good steward of this beautiful valley? No. I think it comes from her lack of experience and awareness of other places, how other cities try to preserve what makes them attractive and livable."
Mental Wimp, I went to college with people from Iran who spent quite a lot of time protesting the Shah on the brickyard (this was at NC State back in the 70's.) I also went to Bible college with a gal who grew up in Iran with her missionary parents-who all had to flee when Ayatollah Khomeini took over. So maybe I am a wee bit familiar with the country.
You should recognize, konolia, that the current Iranian president's extreme rhetoric regarding Israel is a tool to influence other Islamic states, konolia
And just think how impressed those other states will be when the missiles arc towards Tel Aviv!
posted by konolia at 2:13 PM on September 19, 2008
You should recognize, konolia, that the current Iranian president's extreme rhetoric regarding Israel is a tool to influence other Islamic states, konolia
And just think how impressed those other states will be when the missiles arc towards Tel Aviv!
posted by konolia at 2:13 PM on September 19, 2008
From the above article...
I have said it before: Hillary Clinton’s husband was president of the United States. Sarah Palin’s works the night shift in an oil field. Who is the feminist hero?
Is there a word for something missing the point so badly that it actually PROVES the point it's trying to refute?
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:19 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
I have said it before: Hillary Clinton’s husband was president of the United States. Sarah Palin’s works the night shift in an oil field. Who is the feminist hero?
Is there a word for something missing the point so badly that it actually PROVES the point it's trying to refute?
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:19 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
konolia,
Given that Israel has nukes, I think Iran has a lot more to worry about than Israel.
posted by lukemeister at 2:21 PM on September 19, 2008
Given that Israel has nukes, I think Iran has a lot more to worry about than Israel.
posted by lukemeister at 2:21 PM on September 19, 2008
So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?
posted by Miko at 2:23 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by Miko at 2:23 PM on September 19, 2008
And no one’s communication skills are better than Bork’s or Thomas’s. Quayle isn’t bad, either — you don’t rise that high in politics without knowing how to communicate.
Do they have to pay royalties to the Onion they write stuff like that?
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:25 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Do they have to pay royalties to the Onion they write stuff like that?
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:25 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
So maybe I am a wee bit familiar with the country.
Can you see Iran from your home in North Carolina?
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
Can you see Iran from your home in North Carolina?
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
So maybe I am a wee bit familiar with the country.
And your familiarity convinces you that all they want to do is nuke Israel? And what lukemeister said.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2008
And your familiarity convinces you that all they want to do is nuke Israel? And what lukemeister said.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2008
I'd like to clarify my remark. I don't mean to imply that Israel plans a nuclear attack on Iran. I mean that Bush and McCain's "line in the sand" talk is more likely to lead to worst-case scenarios than thinking about the issues and, yes, even talking to people whom we have deemed part of the "Axis of Evil".
posted by lukemeister at 2:29 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by lukemeister at 2:29 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hey, this thread comes up first when you google "Palin pancakes" How hard does that rock?
A few loose ends:
Obama is naive. Very naive.
Awesome. Truly awesome. Obama is naive; Palin is seasoned and substantial; konolia is a foreign policy expert.
Konolia, there is not time to disabuse you of every single GOP simplification, talking point, red herring, hot button distraction, or outright slanderous lie. Not that you're capable of being disabused because, in fact, you're being disingenuous, a subject I talked about a long way upthread.
So we've learned that you're a bit more than just another airforce mom from Fayetteville -- what with your family connections to the GOP, and registering voters at gun shows, and attending those fish fries where weird men carry newspaper clippings of classified ads for Obama workers in their wallets as props for outrage. You speak in tongues, while sucking on the lipstick-smeared teat of the Grand Old Pig. Your aww shucks I'm just a little old mom is a hoot and quite artful -- as for me, I have the fondest memories of the Ted Haggard thread, when I first fell for you and your John Cleese-level-frustrating sleights of rhetoric and turns of essentialist tropes, the delight of the never-ending argument with a cipher for everything wrong about and with American right wing culture (which is no more small town than big city and no more religious than state capitalist). Oh and say, have you done any TV? I hear that Carly Fiorina's gig is open and you are way better at keeping the talking points front and center and keeping reasonable questions from penetrating your verbosphere, let alone your cognitive processes.
But to make it clear, I never have any hope (perhaps unlike Miko or some others) of convincing you of anything. You mistake my attentions, at least, for my giving a whit about how you plan to vote or which lie you think sounds most slanderous about Obama. (Was it you who praised the difference between McCain's "simple" name and Obama's, in one of these Palin threads?)
No, I feed the creature and take the thing from your hand because the more you say, the more you reveal the bankruptcy of the very arguments you try to support, most of the time (you do nail something once in a while, but stopped clocks and all that). Any lurker or visitor who made it down here to comments #1100+ will have seen enough evidence to become an Obama volunteer by now. The more you say, the better we look. Rather like Sarah Palin.
And then you personalize this stuff by claiming to embody some oppressed constituency in America, and by transferring that sense of oppression to the assertion of your minority right to a fair hearing on Metafilter. And it is thus no surprise that the responses get personalized in return, and somehow conveniently the whole thread turns out to be much more about *you.* As if you represented some authentic meatspace type to whom any of the rest of us owed Palin-esque "deference" simply because you're a rare and delicate flower of commonness on this otherwise godless elitist website.
There are plenty of conservatives whose ideas and intellect I fear, or whom I respect, or rarely both (I'm thinking, I'm thinking) who can convince me of portions of their case, sometimes only temporarily, sometimes moving me to the right with facts and reason. I'm definitely to the right of my younger self on a lot of matters that involve giving credit to human nature. I've seen too much incompetence and bad character to be naive about what people are like -- and I don't think Obama is some kind of god, just the best candidate we've had for a president, at the best time for such a candidate to come along, as I could have hoped for through these 8 terrible years of Bush, whom I regard as a war criminal, an election thief, and the leader of Neocon/theocon coup d'etat in this country that almost worked, and may still work if we don't rise up against it in this election. (One of my main reasons for working hard for Barack is because I want to see some Bush officials held accountable for the crimes of this regime, which you know for a fact will be swept under the rug under a McCain administration).
If you really believe in the scenarios you are so afraid of -- Obama wants to kill babies, or will let Iran nuke Israel, or whatever -- you are obliged to at least offer some semblance of an argument for and facts in support of such a case.
Like John McCain needs to learn, and Governor Palin as well, just repeating something *does not make it true.*
I believe, atheist that I am, that the 9th commandment reads "thou shalt not bear false witness." Remember that one?
The fears you cite to disparage Obama are not arguments or facts. They are prejudicial and ignorant, if they are sincere. If not, they are disingenous, which is a nice way of saying they are "lies."
McCain will lose this election because he is an opportunistic (but bad) liar, and chose a pathological liar as his running mate. His one major strength was his honor. Astonishingly, he has squandered what was left of it in the last three weeks, with 6+ weeks still to go.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [19 favorites]
A few loose ends:
Obama is naive. Very naive.
Awesome. Truly awesome. Obama is naive; Palin is seasoned and substantial; konolia is a foreign policy expert.
Konolia, there is not time to disabuse you of every single GOP simplification, talking point, red herring, hot button distraction, or outright slanderous lie. Not that you're capable of being disabused because, in fact, you're being disingenuous, a subject I talked about a long way upthread.
So we've learned that you're a bit more than just another airforce mom from Fayetteville -- what with your family connections to the GOP, and registering voters at gun shows, and attending those fish fries where weird men carry newspaper clippings of classified ads for Obama workers in their wallets as props for outrage. You speak in tongues, while sucking on the lipstick-smeared teat of the Grand Old Pig. Your aww shucks I'm just a little old mom is a hoot and quite artful -- as for me, I have the fondest memories of the Ted Haggard thread, when I first fell for you and your John Cleese-level-frustrating sleights of rhetoric and turns of essentialist tropes, the delight of the never-ending argument with a cipher for everything wrong about and with American right wing culture (which is no more small town than big city and no more religious than state capitalist). Oh and say, have you done any TV? I hear that Carly Fiorina's gig is open and you are way better at keeping the talking points front and center and keeping reasonable questions from penetrating your verbosphere, let alone your cognitive processes.
But to make it clear, I never have any hope (perhaps unlike Miko or some others) of convincing you of anything. You mistake my attentions, at least, for my giving a whit about how you plan to vote or which lie you think sounds most slanderous about Obama. (Was it you who praised the difference between McCain's "simple" name and Obama's, in one of these Palin threads?)
No, I feed the creature and take the thing from your hand because the more you say, the more you reveal the bankruptcy of the very arguments you try to support, most of the time (you do nail something once in a while, but stopped clocks and all that). Any lurker or visitor who made it down here to comments #1100+ will have seen enough evidence to become an Obama volunteer by now. The more you say, the better we look. Rather like Sarah Palin.
And then you personalize this stuff by claiming to embody some oppressed constituency in America, and by transferring that sense of oppression to the assertion of your minority right to a fair hearing on Metafilter. And it is thus no surprise that the responses get personalized in return, and somehow conveniently the whole thread turns out to be much more about *you.* As if you represented some authentic meatspace type to whom any of the rest of us owed Palin-esque "deference" simply because you're a rare and delicate flower of commonness on this otherwise godless elitist website.
There are plenty of conservatives whose ideas and intellect I fear, or whom I respect, or rarely both (I'm thinking, I'm thinking) who can convince me of portions of their case, sometimes only temporarily, sometimes moving me to the right with facts and reason. I'm definitely to the right of my younger self on a lot of matters that involve giving credit to human nature. I've seen too much incompetence and bad character to be naive about what people are like -- and I don't think Obama is some kind of god, just the best candidate we've had for a president, at the best time for such a candidate to come along, as I could have hoped for through these 8 terrible years of Bush, whom I regard as a war criminal, an election thief, and the leader of Neocon/theocon coup d'etat in this country that almost worked, and may still work if we don't rise up against it in this election. (One of my main reasons for working hard for Barack is because I want to see some Bush officials held accountable for the crimes of this regime, which you know for a fact will be swept under the rug under a McCain administration).
If you really believe in the scenarios you are so afraid of -- Obama wants to kill babies, or will let Iran nuke Israel, or whatever -- you are obliged to at least offer some semblance of an argument for and facts in support of such a case.
Like John McCain needs to learn, and Governor Palin as well, just repeating something *does not make it true.*
I believe, atheist that I am, that the 9th commandment reads "thou shalt not bear false witness." Remember that one?
The fears you cite to disparage Obama are not arguments or facts. They are prejudicial and ignorant, if they are sincere. If not, they are disingenous, which is a nice way of saying they are "lies."
McCain will lose this election because he is an opportunistic (but bad) liar, and chose a pathological liar as his running mate. His one major strength was his honor. Astonishingly, he has squandered what was left of it in the last three weeks, with 6+ weeks still to go.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [19 favorites]
So maybe I am a wee bit familiar with the country.
Nope. We know that you are not, because you said that all that Iran wants is to destroy Israel, which is patent nonsense. While their dislike for Israel is presumably sincere, what Iran wants primarily is to be the preeminent regional power in the middle east, and thanks to the invasion and self-destruction of Iraq, Bush has helped them immensely.
In any case, Iran is already well-deterred from actually flinging missiles at Tel Aviv by a hundred or so Israeli nukes. McCain is a lot more likely to provoke Iran into striking because they think they're about to be invaded by the US than Obama is to wave his hand in the air and pronounce his blessing over the nuking or gassing of Israeli towns.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:31 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Nope. We know that you are not, because you said that all that Iran wants is to destroy Israel, which is patent nonsense. While their dislike for Israel is presumably sincere, what Iran wants primarily is to be the preeminent regional power in the middle east, and thanks to the invasion and self-destruction of Iraq, Bush has helped them immensely.
In any case, Iran is already well-deterred from actually flinging missiles at Tel Aviv by a hundred or so Israeli nukes. McCain is a lot more likely to provoke Iran into striking because they think they're about to be invaded by the US than Obama is to wave his hand in the air and pronounce his blessing over the nuking or gassing of Israeli towns.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:31 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
So, konolia, you knew some Iranians. What does that have to do with a current understanding of the socio-economic-political issues of that country, its standing in the Middle East and world at large?
You often use anecdotes (e.g. "I know someone who babysat for McCain's three oldest children," etc.) to somehow qualify a point you are trying to make. Screw the anecdotes. Share with us the substance of your arguments and positions. Knowing someone who is Iranian does not qualify your point ... it just makes you appear somewhat foolish.
Avoiding anecdotal information, I'd be interested in your answer to Miko's question above: "So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?"
posted by ericb at 2:35 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
You often use anecdotes (e.g. "I know someone who babysat for McCain's three oldest children," etc.) to somehow qualify a point you are trying to make. Screw the anecdotes. Share with us the substance of your arguments and positions. Knowing someone who is Iranian does not qualify your point ... it just makes you appear somewhat foolish.
Avoiding anecdotal information, I'd be interested in your answer to Miko's question above: "So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?"
posted by ericb at 2:35 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
But Iran doesn't give a crap about the WTO, economic investments and normal diplomatic relations.
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
This is coming from the person who stated "I don't know all the details about why we went to war, etc." But you have an extremely incisive understanding of Iran's foreign policy, even if you can't explain ours. I'm impressed! Clearly, you are qualified for a cabinet position in the Palin/McCain administration.
Sadly for Iran, even if you were right, it can't wipe Israel off the map, EVEN IF IT ACQUIRES NEWCLEAR WEAPONS. Because, like most other countries, it doesn't want to be destroyed itself, and Israel has a strong advantage in both nuclear and conventional weaponry. Once the "missiles arc towards Tel Aviv," Tehran would be a smoking crater.
But the fact is, Iran has a large, Western-friendly middle class. Lots of Iranians come here for college, for example. Iran wants to be recognized as a major regional power, and there's not a lot we can do about it, and their interests aren't going to match ours all (or perhaps most) of the time, but that's a lousy excuse to start a war.
... had to flee when Ayatollah Khomeini took over ...
One would think this might have taught you the danger of theocracy, but I guess not. I guess Christian theocracy = good, other theocracy = bad.
Obama is naive. Very naive.
Obviously. After all, pursuing diplomacy is so naive, when you can just have a war.
Obama's so naive, he worked with that wacky liberal Senator Lugar - a Republican who knows a thing about foreign policy - to reduce nuclear proliferation.
posted by me & my monkey at 2:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
It only cares about wiping Israel off the map.
This is coming from the person who stated "I don't know all the details about why we went to war, etc." But you have an extremely incisive understanding of Iran's foreign policy, even if you can't explain ours. I'm impressed! Clearly, you are qualified for a cabinet position in the Palin/McCain administration.
Sadly for Iran, even if you were right, it can't wipe Israel off the map, EVEN IF IT ACQUIRES NEWCLEAR WEAPONS. Because, like most other countries, it doesn't want to be destroyed itself, and Israel has a strong advantage in both nuclear and conventional weaponry. Once the "missiles arc towards Tel Aviv," Tehran would be a smoking crater.
But the fact is, Iran has a large, Western-friendly middle class. Lots of Iranians come here for college, for example. Iran wants to be recognized as a major regional power, and there's not a lot we can do about it, and their interests aren't going to match ours all (or perhaps most) of the time, but that's a lousy excuse to start a war.
... had to flee when Ayatollah Khomeini took over ...
One would think this might have taught you the danger of theocracy, but I guess not. I guess Christian theocracy = good, other theocracy = bad.
Obama is naive. Very naive.
Obviously. After all, pursuing diplomacy is so naive, when you can just have a war.
Obama's so naive, he worked with that wacky liberal Senator Lugar - a Republican who knows a thing about foreign policy - to reduce nuclear proliferation.
posted by me & my monkey at 2:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
I never have any hope (perhaps unlike Miko or some others) of convincing you of anything.
For the record, I'm not out to convince konolia of anything. But I'm also not out to let people off the hook for light-duty thinking or sound-bite argumentation. I want to know if she's got any compelling reasons for her affiliation that demonstrate concern for the best interests of the country. So far I don't think we've found any, but the thread's still going, so...
posted by Miko at 2:43 PM on September 19, 2008
For the record, I'm not out to convince konolia of anything. But I'm also not out to let people off the hook for light-duty thinking or sound-bite argumentation. I want to know if she's got any compelling reasons for her affiliation that demonstrate concern for the best interests of the country. So far I don't think we've found any, but the thread's still going, so...
posted by Miko at 2:43 PM on September 19, 2008
Something about Sarah
Wait, you found something supportive of Palin on National Review? That must be exceedingly important, because we all acknowledge National Review editorials to be completely free of bias and not at all pure PR swill (yes, the same is true of editorials at Mother Jones or whatever).
One of them said, “What would be the general media reaction if Obama’s e-mail were hacked and disseminated? It would be a lot stronger.”
This is one of those classic things that's easy to lie about. If the shoe were on the other foot, you'd bitch and moan even more than we are! It's easy because (unless there is) there's no evidence about what the media would do if Obama's email were hacked, because that hasn't happened. It's easy because you get to impute whatever impure, dastardly, and cowardly motives you want to the people who haven't reacted to things that haven't happened.
I have a friend who is both feminist and left-leaning. I asked her why they hate Palin so much. She said, ‘Because she’s had it all: family, career. And she did it without a man like Bill Clinton helping her. She did it on her own.’”
Nup.
It's easy to hate her for being a transparent stunt -- it's McCain's way of patting women on the head and saying "Look at the purty jewelry I bought you!" without looking into any of the things that (some) women had been excited about in Hillary Clinton's campaign. It's easy to hate her for representing the idea that, hey, your qualifications don't matter and it's okay if you take rabidly anti-women positions (viz, rape kits) as long as you've got tits and twat to parade around in front of other people. Many people correctly understand that to be insulting, and someone who willingly takes up the mantle of being that insult is despicable.
It's easy to hate her as an outstanding hypocrite, who stands up and blethers about values and character and goes after anyone who crossed her. It's easy to hate her as a hypocrite who stands up and blethers about ethics and then hires her school chums instead of the best people for the job. It's easy to hate her for slandering Christianity in the work she does and fails to do while she loudly trumpets her Christianity at you.
Frankly, it's easy to hate what she represents about McCain. If you'd asked me in June, I'd have told you that I'd still rather Obama win. But then, McCain didn't seem too bad, and frankly I wouldn't mind if there were another Republican in the White House for the next few years, which seem unpromising. And, yeah, McCain had trended to the right a bit, but still seemed more or less himself. But with Palin, we saw him really caving in to, well, your lot of christian conservatives, really just abandoning any pretense that he was still any sort of maverick with any sort of principles beyond getting elected, with the parade of lies following shortly after. And, yeah, that sticks in my craw because we had had the first election in a long time where I felt pretty decent about, at the time, all three major candidates, and that's been stolen from me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
Wait, you found something supportive of Palin on National Review? That must be exceedingly important, because we all acknowledge National Review editorials to be completely free of bias and not at all pure PR swill (yes, the same is true of editorials at Mother Jones or whatever).
One of them said, “What would be the general media reaction if Obama’s e-mail were hacked and disseminated? It would be a lot stronger.”
This is one of those classic things that's easy to lie about. If the shoe were on the other foot, you'd bitch and moan even more than we are! It's easy because (unless there is) there's no evidence about what the media would do if Obama's email were hacked, because that hasn't happened. It's easy because you get to impute whatever impure, dastardly, and cowardly motives you want to the people who haven't reacted to things that haven't happened.
I have a friend who is both feminist and left-leaning. I asked her why they hate Palin so much. She said, ‘Because she’s had it all: family, career. And she did it without a man like Bill Clinton helping her. She did it on her own.’”
Nup.
It's easy to hate her for being a transparent stunt -- it's McCain's way of patting women on the head and saying "Look at the purty jewelry I bought you!" without looking into any of the things that (some) women had been excited about in Hillary Clinton's campaign. It's easy to hate her for representing the idea that, hey, your qualifications don't matter and it's okay if you take rabidly anti-women positions (viz, rape kits) as long as you've got tits and twat to parade around in front of other people. Many people correctly understand that to be insulting, and someone who willingly takes up the mantle of being that insult is despicable.
It's easy to hate her as an outstanding hypocrite, who stands up and blethers about values and character and goes after anyone who crossed her. It's easy to hate her as a hypocrite who stands up and blethers about ethics and then hires her school chums instead of the best people for the job. It's easy to hate her for slandering Christianity in the work she does and fails to do while she loudly trumpets her Christianity at you.
Frankly, it's easy to hate what she represents about McCain. If you'd asked me in June, I'd have told you that I'd still rather Obama win. But then, McCain didn't seem too bad, and frankly I wouldn't mind if there were another Republican in the White House for the next few years, which seem unpromising. And, yeah, McCain had trended to the right a bit, but still seemed more or less himself. But with Palin, we saw him really caving in to, well, your lot of christian conservatives, really just abandoning any pretense that he was still any sort of maverick with any sort of principles beyond getting elected, with the parade of lies following shortly after. And, yeah, that sticks in my craw because we had had the first election in a long time where I felt pretty decent about, at the time, all three major candidates, and that's been stolen from me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
I went to college with people from Iran who spent quite a lot of time protesting the Shah on the brickyard (this was at NC State back in the 70's.) I also went to Bible college with a gal who grew up in Iran with her missionary parents-who all had to flee when Ayatollah Khomeini took over. So maybe I am a wee bit familiar with the country.
You do know - don't you? - that you'd be more persuasive if you deployed that knowledge to explain, for example, how Obama's policies (with reference to specific sentences) would shift the balance of power between the various Iranian factions, such that "wiping Israel off the map" would be the likely outcome. Could you provide details please?
You must know that most of us here would love nothing so much as a good back-and-forth intellectual debate that's instructive and enlightening. Even if we don't ultimately change our positions or persuade others, we gain respect for those who demonstrate that their positions are well-thought-out and based on a commanding knowledge of whatever subject it is they claim to know about. We're asking these questions not to persecute you, but in good faith that you do have verifiable information about Obama that we as decent and moral human beings would like to evaluate for ourselves, and factor into our decision-making. We're asking in good faith. This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate yours.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:00 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
You do know - don't you? - that you'd be more persuasive if you deployed that knowledge to explain, for example, how Obama's policies (with reference to specific sentences) would shift the balance of power between the various Iranian factions, such that "wiping Israel off the map" would be the likely outcome. Could you provide details please?
You must know that most of us here would love nothing so much as a good back-and-forth intellectual debate that's instructive and enlightening. Even if we don't ultimately change our positions or persuade others, we gain respect for those who demonstrate that their positions are well-thought-out and based on a commanding knowledge of whatever subject it is they claim to know about. We're asking these questions not to persecute you, but in good faith that you do have verifiable information about Obama that we as decent and moral human beings would like to evaluate for ourselves, and factor into our decision-making. We're asking in good faith. This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate yours.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:00 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
You do realize that the last National Intelligence Estimate for Iran says something like:
Our assessment that Iran halted the program in 2003 primarily in response to
international pressure indicates Tehran’s decisions are guided by a cost-benefit
approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic, and
military costs. This, in turn, suggests that some combination of threats of intensified
international scrutiny and pressures, along with opportunities for Iran to achieve its
security, prestige, and goals for regional influence in other ways, might—if perceived
by Iran’s leaders as credible—prompt Tehran to extend the current halt to its nuclear
weapons program. It is difficult to specify what such a combination might be.
In our judgment, only an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective would plausibly keep Iran from eventually producing nuclear weapons—and such a decision is inherently reversible.
We assess with high confidence that Iran has the scientific, technical and industrial
capacity eventually to produce nuclear weapons if it decides to do so.
The 'classic' case of nuclear proliferation, AFAIK, involves a country facing a threat it feels it cannot defeat with conventional arms. Hence, Israel's development of nuclear weapons, South Africa's nuclear program (which has, apparently since been dismantled), Taiwan's nuclear program (which stopped once the US said they would intervene if the Communists came across the strait), and things like that. This is because nuclear weapons are very, very expensive to develop, and you pay a 'social' price for developing them in that it tends to make your neighbors very, very nervous.
Countries do not develop nuclear weapons because they are 'evil'. Stopping other countries from developing nuclear weapons by force (essentially making them more expensive) is possible, but very, very difficult because it does not address the inherent underlying reason that that country seeks nuclear weapons (see '...only an Iranian political decision ...'). Threatening force in fact makes it _more_ likely that that country will develop nuclear weapons because now you waving around the most powerful military on Earth ... which kind of sounds like your classic 'can't be stopped by conventional arms' problem.
There has never been a 'hot' shooting war between two nuclear powers. (Border skirmishes don't count.) This is because you can't 'win' a nuclear war. (The only way to win is not to play, right?)
posted by Comrade_robot at 3:03 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Our assessment that Iran halted the program in 2003 primarily in response to
international pressure indicates Tehran’s decisions are guided by a cost-benefit
approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic, and
military costs. This, in turn, suggests that some combination of threats of intensified
international scrutiny and pressures, along with opportunities for Iran to achieve its
security, prestige, and goals for regional influence in other ways, might—if perceived
by Iran’s leaders as credible—prompt Tehran to extend the current halt to its nuclear
weapons program. It is difficult to specify what such a combination might be.
In our judgment, only an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective would plausibly keep Iran from eventually producing nuclear weapons—and such a decision is inherently reversible.
We assess with high confidence that Iran has the scientific, technical and industrial
capacity eventually to produce nuclear weapons if it decides to do so.
The 'classic' case of nuclear proliferation, AFAIK, involves a country facing a threat it feels it cannot defeat with conventional arms. Hence, Israel's development of nuclear weapons, South Africa's nuclear program (which has, apparently since been dismantled), Taiwan's nuclear program (which stopped once the US said they would intervene if the Communists came across the strait), and things like that. This is because nuclear weapons are very, very expensive to develop, and you pay a 'social' price for developing them in that it tends to make your neighbors very, very nervous.
Countries do not develop nuclear weapons because they are 'evil'. Stopping other countries from developing nuclear weapons by force (essentially making them more expensive) is possible, but very, very difficult because it does not address the inherent underlying reason that that country seeks nuclear weapons (see '...only an Iranian political decision ...'). Threatening force in fact makes it _more_ likely that that country will develop nuclear weapons because now you waving around the most powerful military on Earth ... which kind of sounds like your classic 'can't be stopped by conventional arms' problem.
There has never been a 'hot' shooting war between two nuclear powers. (Border skirmishes don't count.) This is because you can't 'win' a nuclear war. (The only way to win is not to play, right?)
posted by Comrade_robot at 3:03 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
For the record, like Miko, I'm not trying to persuade you, konolia, of anything either. I do like to learn. You've claimed knowledge that, if accurate, I would learn from.
If you can't demonstrate a command of the subject (you haven't addressed the economic question either, but perhaps you're typing up your response to that right now, since of course you're fielding a bombardment), don't you think the Christian thing to do would be to admit that you don't know as much as you've claimed? (ie, good faith)
And if there are significant gaps in your knowledge, don't you think the Christian thing to do would be to admit that your voting preference is not driven by the imperatives of logic but your faith? I'm not calling you stupid, here. Many intelligent people apply logic in some areas of their lives and not others.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:16 PM on September 19, 2008
If you can't demonstrate a command of the subject (you haven't addressed the economic question either, but perhaps you're typing up your response to that right now, since of course you're fielding a bombardment), don't you think the Christian thing to do would be to admit that you don't know as much as you've claimed? (ie, good faith)
And if there are significant gaps in your knowledge, don't you think the Christian thing to do would be to admit that your voting preference is not driven by the imperatives of logic but your faith? I'm not calling you stupid, here. Many intelligent people apply logic in some areas of their lives and not others.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:16 PM on September 19, 2008
For the record, I'm not out to convince konolia of anything. But I'm also not out to let people off the hook for light-duty thinking or sound-bite argumentation. I want to know if she's got any compelling reasons for her affiliation that demonstrate concern for the best interests of the country. So far I don't think we've found any, but the thread's still going, so...
I applaud your efforts in this regard, although I remain pretty convinced this is a pearls-before-swine situation here. More anecdotes, more cryptic rectal smoke, and more pointless aw-shucks vaudeville is pretty much what you can expect in return for your thoughtful and inspiring arguments. Your faith is a lot stronger than mine.
Oh, speaking of that elitist Obama and how out of touch he is with the common man:
Poll: Obama tops McCain as football-watching buddy. My favorite part:
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:19 PM on September 19, 2008
I applaud your efforts in this regard, although I remain pretty convinced this is a pearls-before-swine situation here. More anecdotes, more cryptic rectal smoke, and more pointless aw-shucks vaudeville is pretty much what you can expect in return for your thoughtful and inspiring arguments. Your faith is a lot stronger than mine.
Oh, speaking of that elitist Obama and how out of touch he is with the common man:
Poll: Obama tops McCain as football-watching buddy. My favorite part:
McCain backers were a bit more intrigued by watching with Obama than the Democrat's supporters were with making McCain their football buddy. While fewer than one in 10 Obama backers wanted to watch with McCain, nearly one in five McCain supporters wanted to kick back with Obama.Poll: People prefer Obama over McCain as teacher.
"He seems intensely focused in a way I'm not sure he does sit down and relax," McCain supporter Lanita Linch, 41, of Harrison, Ark., said of the Republican. She said she'd rather watch with Obama because he seemed like "someone you could be comfortable and at ease with," but cautioned, "If he's not a Cowboys fan, we'd have a problem."
Asked which they'd choose to be their child's teacher, Obama was the choice by a more decisive 55 percent to 44 percent, including a markedly stronger performance by the Illinois senator among whites. Those questioned generally said that for viewing a football game, they were looking for someone they would feel comfortable spending time with. For a teacher, they often described a more complex process measuring a candidate's life experience, communications skills and tolerance of different viewpoints.And at the time of this posting, Obama has pulled ahead of McCain according to compiled averages of different national polls. The question remains, though: could Obama watch a football game while teaching a class? I'm not entirely convinced.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:19 PM on September 19, 2008
You must know that most of us here would love nothing so much as a good back-and-forth intellectual debate that's instructive and enlightening.
This. And, if my last note came off as snarky, I came back to clarify. I engage in this, and keep pushing, because I honestly believe that we have to get beyond the simplistic, one-liner politicking that we've gotten used to over the last few years. We have to be talking about real ideas, real problems, real solutions, and not just who drinks latte or who watches NASCAR. That stuff doesn't matter. When we can actually engage in substantive conversation about the issues, there's potential for progress, even if neither side votes differently. What might happen is that we might think differently. We open up the possibility that beyond "A is right!" "No, B is right!" there might emerge a "C, which could not have been imagined without closely examining A and B."
We can't stay stuck in the culture war, or in old-hat thinking about any of the issues we're facing. I don't mind engaging in serious, good-faith debate with people who disagree with me. But we've come to a point where it's hard to honestly pretend that things have gone well under current leadership and that we should continue on the same path. Good, good faith arguments for that are very few. I continue to listen for them, but keep finding that when you push a little bit on most of the arguments, they give way like a rice-paper screen. And what's behind the screen is often either a personal or financial investment in the status quo, not a desire for America to actually solve some of the problems that are currently plaguing us.
We've got to get beyond the shallow debate. WE've got to stop being intimidated by smart-assed, identity-based attacks and the slogans and catchphrases of pundits and shills. We've got to start talking about what matters. So to every shot of that kind across the pow, I'm going to keep asking "What's behind that? Does it mean anything? Does it matter when you look at the underlying issues?" I don't expect to convince anyone here. But once you stop reacting to the surface and look at what's underneath, always referencing that against the ultimate goal of the good of the country, it sure is some nutrient-dense food for thought when it comes to the undecided people.
posted by Miko at 3:23 PM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
This. And, if my last note came off as snarky, I came back to clarify. I engage in this, and keep pushing, because I honestly believe that we have to get beyond the simplistic, one-liner politicking that we've gotten used to over the last few years. We have to be talking about real ideas, real problems, real solutions, and not just who drinks latte or who watches NASCAR. That stuff doesn't matter. When we can actually engage in substantive conversation about the issues, there's potential for progress, even if neither side votes differently. What might happen is that we might think differently. We open up the possibility that beyond "A is right!" "No, B is right!" there might emerge a "C, which could not have been imagined without closely examining A and B."
We can't stay stuck in the culture war, or in old-hat thinking about any of the issues we're facing. I don't mind engaging in serious, good-faith debate with people who disagree with me. But we've come to a point where it's hard to honestly pretend that things have gone well under current leadership and that we should continue on the same path. Good, good faith arguments for that are very few. I continue to listen for them, but keep finding that when you push a little bit on most of the arguments, they give way like a rice-paper screen. And what's behind the screen is often either a personal or financial investment in the status quo, not a desire for America to actually solve some of the problems that are currently plaguing us.
We've got to get beyond the shallow debate. WE've got to stop being intimidated by smart-assed, identity-based attacks and the slogans and catchphrases of pundits and shills. We've got to start talking about what matters. So to every shot of that kind across the pow, I'm going to keep asking "What's behind that? Does it mean anything? Does it matter when you look at the underlying issues?" I don't expect to convince anyone here. But once you stop reacting to the surface and look at what's underneath, always referencing that against the ultimate goal of the good of the country, it sure is some nutrient-dense food for thought when it comes to the undecided people.
posted by Miko at 3:23 PM on September 19, 2008 [6 favorites]
It's easy to hate her for being a transparent stunt -
For just a moment, I considered doing a FTFY on this, but I'm trying to keep the discourse somewhat elevated. Just know that I was thinking about it really hard...
posted by quin at 3:27 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
For just a moment, I considered doing a FTFY on this, but I'm trying to keep the discourse somewhat elevated. Just know that I was thinking about it really hard...
posted by quin at 3:27 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama: McCain "Panicked." "Now, I think it's a pretty clear that Senator McCain is a little panicked right now. At this point he seems to be willing to say anything or do anything or change any position or violate any principle to try and win this election, and I've got to say it's kind of sad to see. That's not the politics we need."
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on September 19, 2008
i met some people from the u a e once - and it's clear to me that all the u a e wants to do is to smoke dope and drink budweiser in cheap motel rooms
posted by pyramid termite at 3:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [9 favorites]
More evidence of Palin's bad treatment by the media.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:32 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:32 PM on September 19, 2008
There's no arguing with someone who won't even consider factual evidence.
And yet people continue to do so, despite the evidence of its futility.
*sigh*
posted by homunculus at 3:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
And yet people continue to do so, despite the evidence of its futility.
*sigh*
posted by homunculus at 3:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I went to college with people from Iran who spent quite a lot of time protesting the Shah on the brickyard (this was at NC State back in the 70's.)
You do know, don't you, that things have changed in the intervening three decades? That the Shah has been ousted and all that?
posted by leftcoastbob at 4:09 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
You do know, don't you, that things have changed in the intervening three decades? That the Shah has been ousted and all that?
posted by leftcoastbob at 4:09 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
I went to college with people from Iran who spent quite a lot of time protesting the Shah on the brickyard (this was at NC State back in the 70's.)
Ah, the incisive "some of my best friends are black" argument. Very effective.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:16 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Ah, the incisive "some of my best friends are black" argument. Very effective.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:16 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
And this is just silly, even as it perfectly underscores Miko's outstanding (as usual) comment earlier today about focusing on the issues. The GOP is actually giving Biden shit over some run-of-the-mill sports trash talking. If there are people in Ohio who would actually not vote for a ticket out of some neanderthalic collegiate loyalty, I don't want to know about it.
Regardless, it's pretty funny that the Republicans are so desperate that they're trying to turn this into a controversy.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:27 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Regardless, it's pretty funny that the Republicans are so desperate that they're trying to turn this into a controversy.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:27 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hey, he's only stating the truth about OSU. Should have said it in Michigan, though.
posted by casarkos at 4:30 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by casarkos at 4:30 PM on September 19, 2008
Hey, this thread comes up first when you google "Palin pancakes"
Palin pancakes? I hear they taste great with moose bacon!
posted by jonp72 at 4:36 PM on September 19, 2008
Palin pancakes? I hear they taste great with moose bacon!
posted by jonp72 at 4:36 PM on September 19, 2008
Wow. That whole article is a comedy rollercoaster. shiu mai baby.
So, Biden says the Fightin' Blue Hens are "going to kick Ohio State's ass". And this is what GOP State chair Bob Bennett comes up with:
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:40 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
So, Biden says the Fightin' Blue Hens are "going to kick Ohio State's ass". And this is what GOP State chair Bob Bennett comes up with:
"As if his comments about it being a patriotic duty for Ohioans to pay higher taxes weren't bad enough, now Biden is taking pot shots at the Buckeyes. Barack Obama and Joe Biden must really think they can win this election without Ohio, because they're doing their best to lose it with stupid comments like these. Keep talking, Joe."Funnily enough, as the CNN article points out, what Biden actually said was that it was patriotic for some wealthier Americans to pay higher taxes. But hey, fuck facts. Also, this was pretty sweet:
David Wade, a spokesman for Biden said, “I think this episode explains exactly why we’ll win Ohio: Joe Biden is loyal to his home team, and John McCain is loyal to President Bush."Man, I love how this back-and-forth between spokespeople is taking on the form of the battle rap scenes from Eight Mile. If I was David Wade, I'd hire someone to stand behind me and yell "Oh snap!" anytime I said something like this.
"We forgive the Republicans on this one, though," he added. "After watching John McCain flip flop on everything from taxes to torture, they’re just mystified by someone who takes a position and sticks with it.”
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:40 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
For just a moment, I considered doing a FTFY on this, but I'm trying to keep the discourse somewhat elevated.
In that same spirit, let me note that I agree that the stunt in question did have a certain cunning.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
In that same spirit, let me note that I agree that the stunt in question did have a certain cunning.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Even his own family is coming out and remarking on the 180° turn from the Straight Talkin’ Maverick to the craven, say anything, do anything, pander to all politician desperately taking his last covetous bid at the White House. Ouch.
John and I are related through our grandmothers. Katherine Vaulx McCain and Huetta Vaulx Boles, both of Fayetteville, Ark., were sisters. My side of the Vaulx family represents a long line of Democrats, but it is with no small amount of pride that we’ve followed the life and career of now-Sen. John McCain.[..]posted by dejah420 at 5:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
Although neither my father nor I have ever voted for a Republican, when John threw his hat in the ring in 2000, we were both very proud and encouraged, and not just because he’s our relative. This was the first Republican who, on a national stage, was saying things like, “If we repeal Roe vs. Wade tomorrow, thousands of young American women will be performing illegal and dangerous operations,” and, “Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer-reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance.” Wow!
Here was a man who was not abiding by partisan lines, who was, instead, living up to his promise of “straight talk” and commonsense thinking. The right-wing Republican base may not have agreed with everything he said, but the rest of America certainly respected him for speaking his mind honestly.
Jump ahead to the campaign Sen. McCain is currently running. Clearly, a lot can change in eight years. Our nation has gone from a time of unparalleled prosperity and peace to one marked by debt in the trillions of dollars, record foreclosures, and a global reputation for warmongering and neo-imperialism.
So, where is the straight-talking, commonsense John McCain of 2000? I’m afraid he is long gone, replaced by a desperate version of himself who seems to contradict nearly everything he once stood for.
What becomes apparent in his ideological about-face is just how out of touch McCain really is with America’s working families. [..]
But, as he continually demonstrates in this campaign, my cousin John is long gone. “Straight talk” has been replaced with “flip-flop.” Saddest all, this is the same man who, when campaigning in 2000, told a crowd of supporters, “I don’t think Bill Gates needs a tax cut. I think your parents do.”
My parents, John, need some help after the economic destruction Bush has wrought in the last eight years, but it’s clear you’re not the one who’ll give it to us. America’s working families no longer recognize you, nor does your own.
In the spirit of bipartisanship (after all, we did start out a thread or so ago with a wacky rumor) here is something that was just emailed to me. By the same individual who gave us an early head's up on the Palin pick.
Just for fun-DOES Biden have any health problems? And, just for fun again-if this did happen, how do you think the typical Democrat will respond?
Normally I would have just laughed and gone on to my next email, but this political season is teaching me that nothing is too bizarre to be possible.
Well, Rush Limbaugh has been saying that the Democrats would work out a way to get Hillary on the Obama ticket -- looks like he may be right again!! This was sent to me, and snopes.com doesn't have anything on it, nor does truthorfiction.com - but it wouldn't surprise me -- ANYTHING the Dems can do to TRY and win this election will be done - and you can be sure the Clintons are behind this!! Good Morning America had Hillary on yesterday morning, and she hedged when asked about how important the "woman" issue.
On or about October 5th, Biden will excuse himself from the ticket, citing health problems,
and he will be replaced by Hillary. This is timed to occur after the VP debate on 10/2.
There have been talks all weekend about how to proceed with this info. Generally, the feeling
is that we should all go ahead and get it out there to as many blog sites and personal email
lists as is possible. I have already seen a few short blurbs about this - the "health problem".
Cited in those articles was an aneurysm. Probably many of you have heard the same rumblings....
posted by konolia at 5:41 PM on September 19, 2008
Just for fun-DOES Biden have any health problems? And, just for fun again-if this did happen, how do you think the typical Democrat will respond?
Normally I would have just laughed and gone on to my next email, but this political season is teaching me that nothing is too bizarre to be possible.
Well, Rush Limbaugh has been saying that the Democrats would work out a way to get Hillary on the Obama ticket -- looks like he may be right again!! This was sent to me, and snopes.com doesn't have anything on it, nor does truthorfiction.com - but it wouldn't surprise me -- ANYTHING the Dems can do to TRY and win this election will be done - and you can be sure the Clintons are behind this!! Good Morning America had Hillary on yesterday morning, and she hedged when asked about how important the "woman" issue.
On or about October 5th, Biden will excuse himself from the ticket, citing health problems,
and he will be replaced by Hillary. This is timed to occur after the VP debate on 10/2.
There have been talks all weekend about how to proceed with this info. Generally, the feeling
is that we should all go ahead and get it out there to as many blog sites and personal email
lists as is possible. I have already seen a few short blurbs about this - the "health problem".
Cited in those articles was an aneurysm. Probably many of you have heard the same rumblings....
posted by konolia at 5:41 PM on September 19, 2008
Wait, you found something supportive of Palin on National Review?
Actually, the article isn't supportive of Palin--that's the strange thing. The article spends a lot of time condemning those who criticize Palin, but it fails to say a single good thing about Palin herself. Unless you count the fact that her husband works in an oil field. That's the best someone at National Review can find to say about Palin? The article isn't pro-Palin, just anti-anti-Palin. I suppose it might appeal to people who believe "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," (if they're already convinced liberals are their enemies) but that's about it.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:41 PM on September 19, 2008
Actually, the article isn't supportive of Palin--that's the strange thing. The article spends a lot of time condemning those who criticize Palin, but it fails to say a single good thing about Palin herself. Unless you count the fact that her husband works in an oil field. That's the best someone at National Review can find to say about Palin? The article isn't pro-Palin, just anti-anti-Palin. I suppose it might appeal to people who believe "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," (if they're already convinced liberals are their enemies) but that's about it.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:41 PM on September 19, 2008
konolia, what?
posted by cortex at 5:47 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex at 5:47 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Man, I love how this back-and-forth between spokespeople is taking on the form of the battle rap scenes from Eight Mile. If I was David Wade, I'd hire someone to stand behind me and yell "Oh snap!" anytime I said something like this.
And be like "OhhhhhHHHhhhh!!!!"
That OSU thing is hilarious because it's the freaking Deleware BLUE HENS. I mean really. I heard about that story and I honestly thought, they must really think Republican voters are stupid. I mean flat out stupid. I know some people are ignorant, but this is not only hoping people are incredibly stupid, misinformed and petty, but also deliberately trying to angle for that. It's trying to bring out the worst in people.
The other funny part is that Carson Palmer, the Cincinnati Bengals quarterback, said he couldn't wait to have the Ohio State fans (not the team, the fans) shut up by a beatdown (Which indeed did occur, 35-3, as noted in the article). Appalachian State/Michigan notwithstanding, the Delaware Blue Hens beating beating OSU is like you playing Michael Jor.... THE TEAM IS THE BLUE HENS, COME THE FUCK ON. It's sports silliness. Anybody who supports a party who has people that make ridiculous points like this should be seriously wondering if their party has been hijacked by a bunch of lying and cheating miscreants.
posted by cashman at 5:49 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
And be like "OhhhhhHHHhhhh!!!!"
That OSU thing is hilarious because it's the freaking Deleware BLUE HENS. I mean really. I heard about that story and I honestly thought, they must really think Republican voters are stupid. I mean flat out stupid. I know some people are ignorant, but this is not only hoping people are incredibly stupid, misinformed and petty, but also deliberately trying to angle for that. It's trying to bring out the worst in people.
The other funny part is that Carson Palmer, the Cincinnati Bengals quarterback, said he couldn't wait to have the Ohio State fans (not the team, the fans) shut up by a beatdown (Which indeed did occur, 35-3, as noted in the article). Appalachian State/Michigan notwithstanding, the Delaware Blue Hens beating beating OSU is like you playing Michael Jor.... THE TEAM IS THE BLUE HENS, COME THE FUCK ON. It's sports silliness. Anybody who supports a party who has people that make ridiculous points like this should be seriously wondering if their party has been hijacked by a bunch of lying and cheating miscreants.
posted by cashman at 5:49 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin Is Scaring the Bejeesus Out of Floridians
“Fascinating article Ben Smith just posted about how undecided Floridians are now moving towards Obama because of Sarah Palin. Seems they aren't very thrilled with ‘ideologues’ like Palin. I'm going to guess that part of the reason is a visceral distrust of where the arch-Christian Palin comes down on the question of Jews and issues they care about. Actually, it would be a fascinating question to ask Palin, if she thinks Jews need to be ‘saved,’ and whether they're going to hell. In the menatime, let's not forget that the anti-Semitic Pat Buchanan claims that Palin was a big supporter of his presidential campaign. Palin denies it, but then again, she and McCain have been lying every single day since McCain picked her, so we're to believe Palin doesn't have a personal problem with Jews because she, a serial liar, tells us so? Pat Buchanan thinks she's swell, and says she was a big supporter. Here he is.’”posted by ericb at 5:58 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hillary ...hedged when asked about how important the "woman" issue.
I think your sentence got cut off there, konolia. It's difficult to make sense of what Hillary was quoted as saying.
Oh yeah, it didn't actually quote her. Just describes "hedging" without anything to back it up.
Nor am I certain what this conspiracy-rumor-waiting-to-see-the-light-of-proof about Biden's health history you speak of has to do with anything. Your quote takes trouble to state it's *not* on snopes or other web sites -- therefore it lends credibility to said rumor, how, exactly?
I actually wanted to share with you, or for anyone interested, an interesting perspective from a former right-leaner, Frank Schaeffer, son of a legendary evangelical minister Francis Schaeffer who carved the way toward contemporary "religious right" movement as we knew it during the past couple of decades.
The younger Schaeffer is quite articulate, I find, about this movement's development and it helps me understand the direction your side is coming from a little better, konolia.
And hopefully you were able to see the post earlier someone shared about a former editor of National Review and where he's coming from today.
posted by skyper at 6:00 PM on September 19, 2008
I think your sentence got cut off there, konolia. It's difficult to make sense of what Hillary was quoted as saying.
Oh yeah, it didn't actually quote her. Just describes "hedging" without anything to back it up.
Nor am I certain what this conspiracy-rumor-waiting-to-see-the-light-of-proof about Biden's health history you speak of has to do with anything. Your quote takes trouble to state it's *not* on snopes or other web sites -- therefore it lends credibility to said rumor, how, exactly?
I actually wanted to share with you, or for anyone interested, an interesting perspective from a former right-leaner, Frank Schaeffer, son of a legendary evangelical minister Francis Schaeffer who carved the way toward contemporary "religious right" movement as we knew it during the past couple of decades.
The younger Schaeffer is quite articulate, I find, about this movement's development and it helps me understand the direction your side is coming from a little better, konolia.
And hopefully you were able to see the post earlier someone shared about a former editor of National Review and where he's coming from today.
posted by skyper at 6:00 PM on September 19, 2008
apologies... Wick Allison is, apparently, STILL the editor-in-chief of Nat'l Review -- his wording makes it sound like publisher as well, I can't tell the difference...
posted by skyper at 6:05 PM on September 19, 2008
But we've come to a point where it's hard to honestly pretend that things have gone well under current leadership and that we should continue on the same path.
A masterful understatement.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:15 PM on September 19, 2008
A masterful understatement.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:15 PM on September 19, 2008
Oh what a surprise: Palin is lying about Troopergate.
Next verse, same as the first!
posted by five fresh fish at 6:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Next verse, same as the first!
posted by five fresh fish at 6:30 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Wait, I thought Florida Jews loved Pat Buchanan.
My brother and sister were in a bar one time, and my brother went up to the bar to get a couple of beers. He gives the bartender a twenty, and while the bartender's making change another guy comes up, puts down enough money for two beers, and takes my brother's beers. My brother gets two more beers, pays for them with the guy's money, and says "enjoy your beer" to the guy as he's walking back to the table. The guy gets all up in my brother's face and wants to fight him. He starts poking my brother in the chest and saying he wants to take it outside. My sister sees this going on, steps up, and punches the guy in the face. He still tries to pick a fight with my brother, who says, "What do I need to fight you for? My sister is kicking your ass!"
So no, I don't think they'll replace Biden.
I'd have a blaxploitation band follow me around I'm Gonna Get U Sucka-style.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:35 PM on September 19, 2008 [7 favorites]
Just for fun-DOES Biden have any health problems? And, just for fun again-if this did happen, how do you think the typical Democrat will respond?
My brother and sister were in a bar one time, and my brother went up to the bar to get a couple of beers. He gives the bartender a twenty, and while the bartender's making change another guy comes up, puts down enough money for two beers, and takes my brother's beers. My brother gets two more beers, pays for them with the guy's money, and says "enjoy your beer" to the guy as he's walking back to the table. The guy gets all up in my brother's face and wants to fight him. He starts poking my brother in the chest and saying he wants to take it outside. My sister sees this going on, steps up, and punches the guy in the face. He still tries to pick a fight with my brother, who says, "What do I need to fight you for? My sister is kicking your ass!"
So no, I don't think they'll replace Biden.
If I was David Wade, I'd hire someone to stand behind me and yell "Oh snap!" anytime I said something like this.
I'd have a blaxploitation band follow me around I'm Gonna Get U Sucka-style.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:35 PM on September 19, 2008 [7 favorites]
ANYTHING the Dems can do to TRY and win this election will be done - and you can be sure the Clintons are behind this!!
Yeah, they've really been playing dirty pool lately, what with their campaigning on the issues. How dare they! They should be out there disenfranchising voters, lying like rugs on every issue under the sun, and hiding their VP candidate from any serious questions from the biased mainstream media. That's what your party is doing, after all.
posted by me & my monkey at 6:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Yeah, they've really been playing dirty pool lately, what with their campaigning on the issues. How dare they! They should be out there disenfranchising voters, lying like rugs on every issue under the sun, and hiding their VP candidate from any serious questions from the biased mainstream media. That's what your party is doing, after all.
posted by me & my monkey at 6:37 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
And speaking of Troopergate, I flat out can't understand this.
Vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's husband will ignore a subpoena in the probe of Palin's firing of Alaska's public safety chief, the campaign said.
A spokeswoman for the John McCain-Sarah Palin campaign Thursday said Todd Palin wouldn't receive a fair hearing before the state Senate Judiciary Committee, scheduled to take statements Friday in the investigation, CNN reported.
So you can just say "The Man's got it out for me so take your subpoena and shove it!"? Or do you have to know important people in the Republican Party? Lucky you, Konalia!
posted by leftcoastbob at 6:45 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's husband will ignore a subpoena in the probe of Palin's firing of Alaska's public safety chief, the campaign said.
A spokeswoman for the John McCain-Sarah Palin campaign Thursday said Todd Palin wouldn't receive a fair hearing before the state Senate Judiciary Committee, scheduled to take statements Friday in the investigation, CNN reported.
So you can just say "The Man's got it out for me so take your subpoena and shove it!"? Or do you have to know important people in the Republican Party? Lucky you, Konalia!
posted by leftcoastbob at 6:45 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Konolia's war. The one that she's in support of, even though she's not so sure why you're there:
posted by five fresh fish at 6:47 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
His emotionally charged testimony, like all of those in the book that covered panels addressing dehumanisation, civilian testimony, sexism in the military, veterans' health care, and the breakdown of the military, raised issues that were repeated again and again by other veterans.Nuking the old woman who was trying to bring food to the soldiers, that was classy. And remember the old rumour that troops were planting evidence on civilian casualties, so they could claim they'd killed enemy combatants? Turns out to be true.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:47 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
In the spirit of bipartisanship (after all, we did start out a thread or so ago with a wacky rumor)...
Screw the rumors.
Since you professed knowledge of Iran (as per your affiliation with Iranians in the 1970's), can you please finally answer miko's question (as above): "So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?"
posted by ericb at 6:57 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Screw the rumors.
Since you professed knowledge of Iran (as per your affiliation with Iranians in the 1970's), can you please finally answer miko's question (as above): "So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?"
posted by ericb at 6:57 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh. This is where all the crazy went.
Yes, I mean both of you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 PM on September 19, 2008
Yes, I mean both of you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 PM on September 19, 2008
Konolia, look: I respect you in a lot of ways. I know it's tough to stand up for your faith, and for the party you believe in (even though a lot of us are having a tough time figuring out if there are any concrete facts beyond your vote).
But for the love of honest discourse: When you get an e-mail forward that swears it's not "on snopes"? Your first move should be checking snopes, not scurrying over here to post it as anything beyond the most desperate of speculations. Yes, I know it's still listed as "undetermined," officially, but any carbon-based creature with anything resembling higher brain functions can see that it is most likely the latest round of baseless bullshit that has been the trademark of every lame ploy from the GOP.
Can you at least try to pretend you respect the conversation we're trying to have here?
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [9 favorites]
But for the love of honest discourse: When you get an e-mail forward that swears it's not "on snopes"? Your first move should be checking snopes, not scurrying over here to post it as anything beyond the most desperate of speculations. Yes, I know it's still listed as "undetermined," officially, but any carbon-based creature with anything resembling higher brain functions can see that it is most likely the latest round of baseless bullshit that has been the trademark of every lame ploy from the GOP.
Can you at least try to pretend you respect the conversation we're trying to have here?
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [9 favorites]
Fighting back against allegations she may have fired her then-Public Safety Commissioner, Walt Monegan, for refusing to go along with a personal vendetta, Palin on Monday argued in a legal filing that she fired Monegan because he had a "rogue mentality" and was bucking her administration's directives.
"The last straw," her lawyer argued, came when he planned a trip to Washington, D.C., to seek federal funds for an aggressive anti-sexual-violence program. The project, expected to cost from $10 million to $20 million a year for five years, would have been the first of its kind in Alaska, which leads the nation in reported forcible rape.
Seriously, why isn't her treatment of Alaska's rape epidemic more of a story? This is vile, heartless stuff.
posted by maryh at 7:53 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
"The last straw," her lawyer argued, came when he planned a trip to Washington, D.C., to seek federal funds for an aggressive anti-sexual-violence program. The project, expected to cost from $10 million to $20 million a year for five years, would have been the first of its kind in Alaska, which leads the nation in reported forcible rape.
Seriously, why isn't her treatment of Alaska's rape epidemic more of a story? This is vile, heartless stuff.
posted by maryh at 7:53 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
It's difficult to definitively prove a negative, but rumors of Biden's replacement as a VP candidate seem to be nothing more than e-mail chatter at this point, and reports of Biden's health issues in the press appear to be mostly biographical mentions that he was hospitalized in 1988 after suffering from two brain aneurysms. No presidential candidate has switched running mates in the middle of a campaign since George McGovern replaced Thomas Eagleton with Sargent Shriver just 18 days after the 1972 Democratic convention (Eagleton stepped down when reports surfaced that he had previously been hospitalized for nervous exhaustion and received electroshock therapy), with disastrous results: McGovern lost in an electoral landslide. A strategy of calculatedly springing a change of running mates on the public just before an election carries the danger of proving a double-edged sword: Whatever boost Barack Obama's campaign might conceivably gain by swapping Joe Biden for Hillary Clinton just a month before the general election might also be more than offset by criticism that such a last-minute switch demonstrated poor decision-making ability and was indicative of a weak and vacillating presidential candidate.Thank you, Snopes. Also:
"The last straw," her lawyer argued, came when he planned a trip to Washington, D.C., to seek federal funds for an aggressive anti-sexual-violence program. The project, expected to cost from $10 million to $20 million a year for five years, would have been the first of its kind in Alaska, which leads the nation in reported forcible rape.
Oh, but wait: The document, a state travel authorization form, shows that Palin's chief of staff, Mike Nizich, approved Monegan's trip to Washington, D.C., "to attend meeting with Senator Murkowski." The date next to Nizich's signature reads June 18.
Oops!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:02 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
ere is something that was just emailed to me. By the same individual who gave us an early head's up on the Palin pick.
It's really best not to believe or pass along information that is not sourced.
This appears to be a retread of a 2000 rumor that started on the other side of the aisle:
...we have encountered this kind of "October surprise" claptrap before. Cast your memory back to the 2000 election and consider the telling similarities between the specimen above and the one below, which arrived in my inbox eight years ago to the month:
It's really best not to believe or pass along information that is not sourced.
This appears to be a retread of a 2000 rumor that started on the other side of the aisle:
...we have encountered this kind of "October surprise" claptrap before. Cast your memory back to the 2000 election and consider the telling similarities between the specimen above and the one below, which arrived in my inbox eight years ago to the month:
I just heard a rumor from a good source. The Republican party is feeling that Cheney is a liability on the ticket. There's a rumor that a few weeks prior to the election in a desperate attempt to win, Cheney will resign because of a trumped up heart problem or potential "threat to his health."posted by Miko at 8:03 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Then either John McCain or Colin Powell will be asked to come on the ticket and save the party. This move is afoot in top circles and to try to squelch it PLEASE send this letter to as many people as you can. If we get the rumor out on the internet, they won't be able to do their calculated move without repercussions.
So what do you think is the best way to quell the Iran threat, konolia?"
When I get the call to run for Vice President, I'll tell you.
posted by konolia at 8:05 PM on September 19, 2008
When I get the call to run for Vice President, I'll tell you.
posted by konolia at 8:05 PM on September 19, 2008
Well, Sarah did, and she didn't have any fucking idea either.
posted by yhbc at 8:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by yhbc at 8:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
crap! I broke my promise to myself and responded! BAD commish! BAD!
posted by yhbc at 8:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by yhbc at 8:07 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
any carbon-based creature with anything resembling higher brain functions can see that it is most likely the latest round of baseless bullshit that has been the trademark of every lame ploy from the GOP.
Well, that's what I thought when folks were so sure Palin was Trig's GRANDMOTHER.
I have to treat this as a halfserious exercise else I'd be curled in the corner in a fetal position wailing,"When will this end? WHEN WILLL IT END??????????"
posted by konolia at 8:08 PM on September 19, 2008
Well, that's what I thought when folks were so sure Palin was Trig's GRANDMOTHER.
I have to treat this as a halfserious exercise else I'd be curled in the corner in a fetal position wailing,"When will this end? WHEN WILLL IT END??????????"
posted by konolia at 8:08 PM on September 19, 2008
(Cut me a little slack. I have had a horrible headache all day, plus guess whose number the Board of Elections here gives out for people looking for McCain signs? Even after being told-twice-to use hubby's cell phone number instead????)
posted by konolia at 8:11 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by konolia at 8:11 PM on September 19, 2008
The thing that galls me about that National Review article (not that I should really be galled by anything coming out of the National Review, but, you know, whatever) is this: Nordlinger and the anonymous women in his article so very, very stunned and shocked by the baseless hatred they're seeing directed at Sarah Palin.
The strong dislike of Palin is, from what I've seen, based on verifiable fact: her penchant for placing her underqualified high school buddies in cushy government jobs; her ruthlessness when it comes to cutting any dissenters off at the knees; the fact that her dedication to protecting innocent life stops the instant that life leaves the womb (and never, ever extends to the woman carrying the pregnancy); the cavalier way she takes up the mantle of "feminism" like a $2500 Valentino jacket without giving a flying fuck about the principles and massive sacrifices of the hard-working women who were the true standard bearers of that title; and so forth.
Meanwhile, the GOP has merrily stoked the embers of any and every ridiculous rumor that was ever floated about Obama, truth be damned. Obama's a seekrit muzlim, Obama hates small towns, Obama hates America and married an uppity black woman who hates America more, Obama's the Anticrhist, Obama wants to kill and eat your precious, precious unborn babies. You want to talk about hatred? I'll give you bottomless, scary, hatred.
What are the odds that these same National Review folks were equally pearl-clutchy over the legion of lies against Obama?
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:13 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
The strong dislike of Palin is, from what I've seen, based on verifiable fact: her penchant for placing her underqualified high school buddies in cushy government jobs; her ruthlessness when it comes to cutting any dissenters off at the knees; the fact that her dedication to protecting innocent life stops the instant that life leaves the womb (and never, ever extends to the woman carrying the pregnancy); the cavalier way she takes up the mantle of "feminism" like a $2500 Valentino jacket without giving a flying fuck about the principles and massive sacrifices of the hard-working women who were the true standard bearers of that title; and so forth.
Meanwhile, the GOP has merrily stoked the embers of any and every ridiculous rumor that was ever floated about Obama, truth be damned. Obama's a seekrit muzlim, Obama hates small towns, Obama hates America and married an uppity black woman who hates America more, Obama's the Anticrhist, Obama wants to kill and eat your precious, precious unborn babies. You want to talk about hatred? I'll give you bottomless, scary, hatred.
What are the odds that these same National Review folks were equally pearl-clutchy over the legion of lies against Obama?
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:13 PM on September 19, 2008 [4 favorites]
There a number of versions of this email available by checking Google. I love the introduction lines - always the same vague appeal to (unnamed) authority that konolia offers ("the same individual who gave us an early head's up on the Palin pick.")
On Daily Kos you get: "I just received this from a man who generally checks things out before
sending. Thought this was important enough to send along to like-minded people..."
From Free Republic we have it as "Let me share some info with you that I have gotten from excellent sources within the DNC:..."
From this blog, we have "Rumor at this point, but one I keep hearing about through different channels. Just for your info, On or about October 5th, Biden will excuse himself from the ticket,"
And this blog: "This story came to me via an eMail from a person I trust, so if they sent it to me He at least believes it so I am posting it her!"
Moral: don't trust people who reprint and forward emails without confirming the source and content.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
On Daily Kos you get: "I just received this from a man who generally checks things out before
sending. Thought this was important enough to send along to like-minded people..."
From Free Republic we have it as "Let me share some info with you that I have gotten from excellent sources within the DNC:..."
From this blog, we have "Rumor at this point, but one I keep hearing about through different channels. Just for your info, On or about October 5th, Biden will excuse himself from the ticket,"
And this blog: "This story came to me via an eMail from a person I trust, so if they sent it to me He at least believes it so I am posting it her!"
Moral: don't trust people who reprint and forward emails without confirming the source and content.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
the same individual who gave us an early head's up on the Palin pick
Point of order-the person who forwarded this to me is the same person who told us it was Palin hours before it was announced. But I get your point.
I posted the thing because it amused me and I figured it would amuse the rest of you. And again, stranger things have happened, anyway. Elections are full of small amusing things if one looks for them. And believe me, I look for them.
posted by konolia at 8:24 PM on September 19, 2008
Point of order-the person who forwarded this to me is the same person who told us it was Palin hours before it was announced. But I get your point.
I posted the thing because it amused me and I figured it would amuse the rest of you. And again, stranger things have happened, anyway. Elections are full of small amusing things if one looks for them. And believe me, I look for them.
posted by konolia at 8:24 PM on September 19, 2008
Point of order-the person who forwarded this to me is the same person who told us it was Palin hours before it was announced. But I get your point.
I understood that, because you stated it clearly. But in this case, it arrived with no corroborating information, no source. There's nothing terribly magical about an early heads-up on the VP pick - there's a food chain for information. As the child and grandchild of journalists, I know what it's like to get the early heads-up. But as the child and granchild of journalists, I also know what it's like to pick up the phone or do some research to confirm information and name a source before spreading it. Just a good practice.
posted by Miko at 8:31 PM on September 19, 2008
I understood that, because you stated it clearly. But in this case, it arrived with no corroborating information, no source. There's nothing terribly magical about an early heads-up on the VP pick - there's a food chain for information. As the child and grandchild of journalists, I know what it's like to get the early heads-up. But as the child and granchild of journalists, I also know what it's like to pick up the phone or do some research to confirm information and name a source before spreading it. Just a good practice.
posted by Miko at 8:31 PM on September 19, 2008
any carbon-based creature with anything resembling higher brain functions can see that it is most likely the latest round of baseless bullshit that has been the trademark of every lame ploy from the GOP.
Well, that's what I thought when folks were so sure Palin was Trig's GRANDMOTHER.
Easy with that broad brush you're using there, darlin'. If you recall, most of the posters on the epic Palin thread where that salacious rumor was bandied about were either dismissive of it or just ignored it outright. Hell, I can't stand Palin but even I pointed out -- and still think -- that her reproductive choices have exactly squat to do with her raging incompetence as a VP candidate.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:36 PM on September 19, 2008
Well, that's what I thought when folks were so sure Palin was Trig's GRANDMOTHER.
Easy with that broad brush you're using there, darlin'. If you recall, most of the posters on the epic Palin thread where that salacious rumor was bandied about were either dismissive of it or just ignored it outright. Hell, I can't stand Palin but even I pointed out -- and still think -- that her reproductive choices have exactly squat to do with her raging incompetence as a VP candidate.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:36 PM on September 19, 2008
only cares about wiping Israel off the map
The fascinating thing about this comment is the juxtaposition of Iranian and American emotionally religious voters. In both America and Iran, certain issues are manipulated by the ruling parties to invoke emotional responses in constituents. In Iran, the Anti-Israel position is similar to the Anti-Abortion position in the South. Both can legitimately claim that in extreme cases, children are literally being killed by Israel/Abortion. Both can legitimately claim a form of moral superiority when focusing on specific issues of their cause while ignoring the broader context. Both lead to politicians making extreme statements in order to rile up their supporters.
Ahmedinijad's mostly domestic pandering to the anti-Israel factions he represents can also rile up emotions in the United States. It usually seems that hard right religious conservatives in every country actually agree on most issues, the defining difference then becomes foreign policy where they are diametrically opposed.
posted by cell divide at 8:38 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
The fascinating thing about this comment is the juxtaposition of Iranian and American emotionally religious voters. In both America and Iran, certain issues are manipulated by the ruling parties to invoke emotional responses in constituents. In Iran, the Anti-Israel position is similar to the Anti-Abortion position in the South. Both can legitimately claim that in extreme cases, children are literally being killed by Israel/Abortion. Both can legitimately claim a form of moral superiority when focusing on specific issues of their cause while ignoring the broader context. Both lead to politicians making extreme statements in order to rile up their supporters.
Ahmedinijad's mostly domestic pandering to the anti-Israel factions he represents can also rile up emotions in the United States. It usually seems that hard right religious conservatives in every country actually agree on most issues, the defining difference then becomes foreign policy where they are diametrically opposed.
posted by cell divide at 8:38 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
There's nothing terribly magical about an early heads-up on the VP pick - there's a food chain for information.
It was going around for a good day before it was announced. I never understood why you trumpeted this like you had some kind of in. Maybe I just check too many political blogs, but it was known way before 'hours' prior to an announcement. On top of that, a friend called it back in May, so it wasn't like nobody saw it coming, either.
I figured it would amuse the rest of you.
No you didn't. You are mirroring McCain/Palin in flailing and throwing out every distraction you can dream up, to try to get attention away from the lying of your party from top to bottom, and the disastrous condition much of the United States of America is in as your party has been in power the last 8 years.
posted by cashman at 8:42 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
It was going around for a good day before it was announced. I never understood why you trumpeted this like you had some kind of in. Maybe I just check too many political blogs, but it was known way before 'hours' prior to an announcement. On top of that, a friend called it back in May, so it wasn't like nobody saw it coming, either.
I figured it would amuse the rest of you.
No you didn't. You are mirroring McCain/Palin in flailing and throwing out every distraction you can dream up, to try to get attention away from the lying of your party from top to bottom, and the disastrous condition much of the United States of America is in as your party has been in power the last 8 years.
posted by cashman at 8:42 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
Hm, I hadn't seen this story about changes to Palin's article on Wikipedia 24 hours before the rumor of her selection was leaked.
posted by Miko at 8:56 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by Miko at 8:56 PM on September 19, 2008
Konolia, do you believe in witches?
posted by Mick at 9:12 PM on September 19, 2008
The pastor whose prayer Sarah Palin says helped her to become governor of Alaska founded his ministry with a witchhunt against a Kenyan woman who he accused of causing car accidents through demonic spells.More crazy here.
posted by Mick at 9:12 PM on September 19, 2008
Believe in witches?
I've been to the home of two and drank iced tea with them.
But that's not exactly what that first link is really about.
I take it you haven't met many African pastors.
posted by konolia at 9:30 PM on September 19, 2008
I've been to the home of two and drank iced tea with them.
But that's not exactly what that first link is really about.
I take it you haven't met many African pastors.
posted by konolia at 9:30 PM on September 19, 2008
I've been to the home of two and drank iced tea with them.
Not sweet tea?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:42 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
Not sweet tea?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:42 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]
I take it you haven't met many African pastors.
Pah, the Catholic Church is lousy with 'em.
But once again, we're talking about narrow personal experience. It's not really important.
posted by Miko at 9:53 PM on September 19, 2008
Pah, the Catholic Church is lousy with 'em.
But once again, we're talking about narrow personal experience. It's not really important.
posted by Miko at 9:53 PM on September 19, 2008
You're already answering more questions than she is.
But still neck-and-neck for not really answering anything at all. "When I get the call to run for VP, I'll tell you" seems like a cop-out to me. So we're just supposed to take accept, for no real reason, that Obama's plan for Iran is a terrible idea. His clear and precise platform on Iran was presented here, to be accepted or criticized. As per usual, there was no real criticism, just dismissal. Naturally, for someone to assert that this plan is a bad idea, there must be some inkling of an alternate solution in mind. None is proferred. But Obama's still wrong, trust me! Possibly because Iranians were known personally (which lends what to Iran's relationship with the rest of the world today, we don't know). But hey, look at this e-mail forward, my head hurts, it's been a long day. Dodge, weave, spin. I'm still very curious to hear a real, concrete, alternative solution that can be meaningfully discussed here, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:12 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
But still neck-and-neck for not really answering anything at all. "When I get the call to run for VP, I'll tell you" seems like a cop-out to me. So we're just supposed to take accept, for no real reason, that Obama's plan for Iran is a terrible idea. His clear and precise platform on Iran was presented here, to be accepted or criticized. As per usual, there was no real criticism, just dismissal. Naturally, for someone to assert that this plan is a bad idea, there must be some inkling of an alternate solution in mind. None is proferred. But Obama's still wrong, trust me! Possibly because Iranians were known personally (which lends what to Iran's relationship with the rest of the world today, we don't know). But hey, look at this e-mail forward, my head hurts, it's been a long day. Dodge, weave, spin. I'm still very curious to hear a real, concrete, alternative solution that can be meaningfully discussed here, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:12 PM on September 19, 2008 [3 favorites]
There have been talks all weekend about how to proceed with this info. Generally, the feeling is that we should all go ahead and get it out there to as many blog sites and personal email lists as is possible.
Thanks konolia. Mission accomplished. Did you forward the email to all of your family and friends, you know, Just for fun?
posted by Sailormom at 10:14 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Thanks konolia. Mission accomplished. Did you forward the email to all of your family and friends, you know, Just for fun?
posted by Sailormom at 10:14 PM on September 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I went to college with people from Iran who spent quite a lot of time protesting the Shah... I also went to Bible college with a gal who grew up in Iran with her missionary parents
Well, when I babysat for Iranians they let me have two fudgecicles from the freezer and didn't block the nudie channels.
So there.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:44 PM on September 19, 2008
Well, when I babysat for Iranians they let me have two fudgecicles from the freezer and didn't block the nudie channels.
So there.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:44 PM on September 19, 2008
Here’s the small-town values and politics I know.
My entire family, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, is from Wyoming. Now, granted, by Wyoming standards, they're from large towns – but relative to much of the rest of the country, they’re still small towns. I spent a good chunk of my childhood in Laramie. My dad grew up with the Cheneys in Casper (he knew Lynn Cheney when her last name was still Vincent); one of his paintings hangs in the Cheneys’ home. So, despite her insinuations (not to mention her attendant slanders of those of us who live in cities), konolia is not the only person who knows a little something about small towns and their residents and their values.
All of my grandparents were working-class. My grandfathers fought in WWII. My dad’s dad was a sign maker. My mom’s dad was a carpenter and cabinetmaker. My grandmothers worked when necessary in low-paid office and retail jobs to help put food on the table. Their parents were ranchers and railroaders. My parents were the first in their families to go to college.
The last time I saw my dad’s mom was in the Denver airport in the summer of 1988; she was flying to San Francisco to visit friends and family. She died of a massive stroke while she was there. The last thing she – a devout Catholic and lifelong Republican – ever said to me was to tell me how proud she was that I would be voting in my first election that November, and to confide in me that she had decided to vote for Dukakis. The reason? “I know what it’s like to be a woman without the right to make decisions about her own body – and honey, I don’t want you to lose that right.”
Twelve years later, my mom’s folks died, a few months before the 2000 election. They were die-hard Democrats; my grandfather, who had grown up in poverty and had always dreamed of being a physicist but never had the money to go to college, a man who loved Marian Anderson and Johnny Cash in equal measure, railed from his hospital bed as he lay dying against George W. Bush’s “stupidity and venality” -- the two qualities he arguably hated the most.
One of the last political acts of theirs that I am aware of was in response to the gay-bashing murder of Mathew Shepard. My grandparents, horrified and devastated but too frail to attend his vigil, put a candle in their window in his honor. I spoke to my grandparents that night on the phone, shortly before I left to attend a vigil in Chicago. And my grandfather, choking back his grief and rage, told me this: “Tell everyone you know that our heart breaks for that young man and his family. Tell everyone you know that bigotry isn’t a Wyoming value.”
That's what I told the crowd, via bullhorn, that night, and I'll say it here again, via Metafilter, all these years later. And all the konolias in the world will not alter this fact: that love and truth and decency are not the exclusive property of small towns. Where they find no home is among small minds.
posted by scody at 10:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [51 favorites]
My entire family, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, is from Wyoming. Now, granted, by Wyoming standards, they're from large towns – but relative to much of the rest of the country, they’re still small towns. I spent a good chunk of my childhood in Laramie. My dad grew up with the Cheneys in Casper (he knew Lynn Cheney when her last name was still Vincent); one of his paintings hangs in the Cheneys’ home. So, despite her insinuations (not to mention her attendant slanders of those of us who live in cities), konolia is not the only person who knows a little something about small towns and their residents and their values.
All of my grandparents were working-class. My grandfathers fought in WWII. My dad’s dad was a sign maker. My mom’s dad was a carpenter and cabinetmaker. My grandmothers worked when necessary in low-paid office and retail jobs to help put food on the table. Their parents were ranchers and railroaders. My parents were the first in their families to go to college.
The last time I saw my dad’s mom was in the Denver airport in the summer of 1988; she was flying to San Francisco to visit friends and family. She died of a massive stroke while she was there. The last thing she – a devout Catholic and lifelong Republican – ever said to me was to tell me how proud she was that I would be voting in my first election that November, and to confide in me that she had decided to vote for Dukakis. The reason? “I know what it’s like to be a woman without the right to make decisions about her own body – and honey, I don’t want you to lose that right.”
Twelve years later, my mom’s folks died, a few months before the 2000 election. They were die-hard Democrats; my grandfather, who had grown up in poverty and had always dreamed of being a physicist but never had the money to go to college, a man who loved Marian Anderson and Johnny Cash in equal measure, railed from his hospital bed as he lay dying against George W. Bush’s “stupidity and venality” -- the two qualities he arguably hated the most.
One of the last political acts of theirs that I am aware of was in response to the gay-bashing murder of Mathew Shepard. My grandparents, horrified and devastated but too frail to attend his vigil, put a candle in their window in his honor. I spoke to my grandparents that night on the phone, shortly before I left to attend a vigil in Chicago. And my grandfather, choking back his grief and rage, told me this: “Tell everyone you know that our heart breaks for that young man and his family. Tell everyone you know that bigotry isn’t a Wyoming value.”
That's what I told the crowd, via bullhorn, that night, and I'll say it here again, via Metafilter, all these years later. And all the konolias in the world will not alter this fact: that love and truth and decency are not the exclusive property of small towns. Where they find no home is among small minds.
posted by scody at 10:46 PM on September 19, 2008 [51 favorites]
grr, cutting and pasting will be the death of me. That penultimate sentence originally read: "love and truth and decency are not the exclusive property of small towns nor a particular party."
posted by scody at 10:58 PM on September 19, 2008
posted by scody at 10:58 PM on September 19, 2008
If there are people in Ohio who would actually not vote for a ticket out of some neanderthalic collegiate loyalty
they should have never let the neanderthals start a college down there
posted by pyramid termite at 5:18 AM on September 20, 2008
they should have never let the neanderthals start a college down there
posted by pyramid termite at 5:18 AM on September 20, 2008
Konolia, do you believe in witches?
I can't answer for Konolia, obviously, but I can tell you that most evangelical folks who attend the churches like Palin's certainly believes in bone fide witches. They believe that witches worship (and are agents of ) the devil himself, no matter how "the secular world" might try to frame it in some nature-friendly earth-mothery wiccanism. They believe that demons, and demon possession, are absolutely real. They believe that demons and angels are actual beings that surround us and affect everyday life. If you can stomach the atrocious writing*, read This Present Darkness, by Frank Peretti, to get a peek inside this particular aspect of evangelical faith. Sure, a Christian like Palin knows that the book is fiction, but that same person will most likely believe that that book (and all the other highly popular books that are members of the "spiritual warfare" subgenre of Christian Lit) are an accurate description of the unseen spirit world that is all about affecting the human world.
I've lost track of the number of times as a teen I heard a missionary, back from the deepest heart of Africa (or South America, or Asia, or other distinctly not-white, not-Western parts of the world), talk unblinkingly about performing exorcisms on the native peoples they were there to save. They described the exorcisms in great lurid detail, too -- the subject flailing about, convulsing, speaking in an unrecognizable language until *poof* Jesus cast out those demons and the person was suddenly all better.
So yeah: that bit about witches is definitely not an unusual thing to be discussed in a church like Palin's. At all.
* - One of the most unintentionally hilarious parts of that book is where Peretti describes this secret New Age getaway for the wealthy and powerful that's also --gasp!-- stronghold for the demons. The super-hilarious part is when he makes this thinly-veiled reference to George Lucas being at the retreat, implying that the Star Wars trilogy was responsible for influencing millions of people to The Dark Side (the Satan kind, not the Sith kind), because all that stuff about The Force was really just a demon-inspired cloak for the New Age movement. Actually, that scene might have been in the sequel book, now that I think about it, but even when I was younger and totally into the evangelical thing, I still rolled my eyes at the Star Wars = Satanism bit.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I can't answer for Konolia, obviously, but I can tell you that most evangelical folks who attend the churches like Palin's certainly believes in bone fide witches. They believe that witches worship (and are agents of ) the devil himself, no matter how "the secular world" might try to frame it in some nature-friendly earth-mothery wiccanism. They believe that demons, and demon possession, are absolutely real. They believe that demons and angels are actual beings that surround us and affect everyday life. If you can stomach the atrocious writing*, read This Present Darkness, by Frank Peretti, to get a peek inside this particular aspect of evangelical faith. Sure, a Christian like Palin knows that the book is fiction, but that same person will most likely believe that that book (and all the other highly popular books that are members of the "spiritual warfare" subgenre of Christian Lit) are an accurate description of the unseen spirit world that is all about affecting the human world.
I've lost track of the number of times as a teen I heard a missionary, back from the deepest heart of Africa (or South America, or Asia, or other distinctly not-white, not-Western parts of the world), talk unblinkingly about performing exorcisms on the native peoples they were there to save. They described the exorcisms in great lurid detail, too -- the subject flailing about, convulsing, speaking in an unrecognizable language until *poof* Jesus cast out those demons and the person was suddenly all better.
So yeah: that bit about witches is definitely not an unusual thing to be discussed in a church like Palin's. At all.
* - One of the most unintentionally hilarious parts of that book is where Peretti describes this secret New Age getaway for the wealthy and powerful that's also --gasp!-- stronghold for the demons. The super-hilarious part is when he makes this thinly-veiled reference to George Lucas being at the retreat, implying that the Star Wars trilogy was responsible for influencing millions of people to The Dark Side (the Satan kind, not the Sith kind), because all that stuff about The Force was really just a demon-inspired cloak for the New Age movement. Actually, that scene might have been in the sequel book, now that I think about it, but even when I was younger and totally into the evangelical thing, I still rolled my eyes at the Star Wars = Satanism bit.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Re the 'fungible' quote from Palin, Earbucket asks: Is there anyone who'd still like to argue that this woman has any idea what she's talking about?
Well, bearing in mind that "she knows more about energy than probably anybody else in the United States of America" it is surely no surprise that what she says makes no sense to anybody else. It's just too intelligent, see?
posted by essexjan at 5:52 AM on September 20, 2008
Well, bearing in mind that "she knows more about energy than probably anybody else in the United States of America" it is surely no surprise that what she says makes no sense to anybody else. It's just too intelligent, see?
posted by essexjan at 5:52 AM on September 20, 2008
The truly awesome poll analyst Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com has an interesting new post, comparing the polls that *do* survey cell phone-only respondents and those that don't.
On balance, he finds a 2.2 percentage point advantage to Obama (over and above the baseline poll average) when cell-only registered voters are included. How cool is that?
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:06 AM on September 20, 2008
On balance, he finds a 2.2 percentage point advantage to Obama (over and above the baseline poll average) when cell-only registered voters are included. How cool is that?
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:06 AM on September 20, 2008
Yeah, Gov. Energy doesn't seem to understand a) that oil and gas have a global market, and that you can't produce more for domestic consumption only without restricting free trade in an industry that is predicated on free trade (if we cut off, say, China or India, I imagine Venezuela and the Saudis will just increase the amount they sell to China and India and decrease our allocation proportionally, especially if our currency is fatally weakened and our economy is shrinking).
She also doesn't seem to understand that the global market for refined fuels is not the same as the market for raw fuels. You can only sell refined fuels if you have the refining capacity.
I'm not sure she knows what "fungible" means. I think she thinks it means her emails can be deleted without being stored on a server somewhere.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:11 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
She also doesn't seem to understand that the global market for refined fuels is not the same as the market for raw fuels. You can only sell refined fuels if you have the refining capacity.
I'm not sure she knows what "fungible" means. I think she thinks it means her emails can be deleted without being stored on a server somewhere.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:11 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
This morning's Palin roundup -- chin up, gang, and remember that despite her assertions, konolia does not speak for any particular majority, or even for Republicans. An amazing number of sensible voices on the right are rising up to oppose the Palin hail mary pass.
Anchorage Daily News -- She's "abdicated" as governor:
Gov. Sarah Palin has surrendered important gubernatorial duties to the Republican presidential campaign. McCain staff are handling public and press questions about actions she has taken as governor. The governor who said, "Hold me accountable," is hiding behind the hired guns of the McCain campaign to avoid accountability.
Is it too much to ask that Alaska's governor speak for herself, directly to Alaskans, about her actions as Alaska's governor?
An endorsement for Barack from the Seattle Times (the more conservative of Seattle's two dailies, endorsed Bush in 2000, Kerry in 2004):
Obama should be the next president of the United States because he is the most qualified change agent. Obama is a little young, but also brilliant. If he sometimes seems brainy and professorial, that's OK. We need the leader of the free world to think things through, carefully. We have seen the sorry results of shooting from the hip.
Florida's St Petersburg Times focus group finds that Palin, on her own, is pushing undecided and conservative democrat voters to Obama -- she's that scary to normal people:
Of the 11 undecided voters participating in the discussion one recent evening at the Times — four Republicans, five Democrats, and two registered to no party — only two Republican men applauded the selection of Palin.
Nobody had finalized a choice, but seven of the panelists said that McCain's running mate selection had made them more likely to vote for Obama, and in several cases much more likely.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:32 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Anchorage Daily News -- She's "abdicated" as governor:
Gov. Sarah Palin has surrendered important gubernatorial duties to the Republican presidential campaign. McCain staff are handling public and press questions about actions she has taken as governor. The governor who said, "Hold me accountable," is hiding behind the hired guns of the McCain campaign to avoid accountability.
Is it too much to ask that Alaska's governor speak for herself, directly to Alaskans, about her actions as Alaska's governor?
An endorsement for Barack from the Seattle Times (the more conservative of Seattle's two dailies, endorsed Bush in 2000, Kerry in 2004):
Obama should be the next president of the United States because he is the most qualified change agent. Obama is a little young, but also brilliant. If he sometimes seems brainy and professorial, that's OK. We need the leader of the free world to think things through, carefully. We have seen the sorry results of shooting from the hip.
Florida's St Petersburg Times focus group finds that Palin, on her own, is pushing undecided and conservative democrat voters to Obama -- she's that scary to normal people:
Of the 11 undecided voters participating in the discussion one recent evening at the Times — four Republicans, five Democrats, and two registered to no party — only two Republican men applauded the selection of Palin.
Nobody had finalized a choice, but seven of the panelists said that McCain's running mate selection had made them more likely to vote for Obama, and in several cases much more likely.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:32 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
This is a doozy--in the Sep/Oct issue of Contingencies, the magazine of the American Academy of Actuaries, McCain says this:
Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.
Just imagine! If we deregulated the health insurance industry, it could be doing just as well as the banks right now!
posted by EarBucket at 6:35 AM on September 20, 2008 [7 favorites]
Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.
Just imagine! If we deregulated the health insurance industry, it could be doing just as well as the banks right now!
posted by EarBucket at 6:35 AM on September 20, 2008 [7 favorites]
And all the konolias in the world will not alter this fact: that love and truth and decency are not the exclusive property of small towns
For the last and final time I NEVER SAID THEY WERE.
posted by konolia at 7:25 AM on September 20, 2008
For the last and final time I NEVER SAID THEY WERE.
posted by konolia at 7:25 AM on September 20, 2008
As to Iran-my foreign policy plan is basically talk softly and carry a big stick.
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
I think our nation's enemies will be able to play him like a Stradivarius.
posted by konolia at 7:30 AM on September 20, 2008
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
I think our nation's enemies will be able to play him like a Stradivarius.
posted by konolia at 7:30 AM on September 20, 2008
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
I think our nation's enemies will be able to play him like a Stradivarius.
Again, why? What specifically is wrong with his Iran policy? How does it differ from your Teddy Roosevelt solution? And from where are you divining this clairvoyant vision of him lacking "inner fortitude"? Put down the mud shovel for a moment and back up what you say with facts. If it's not too much trouble.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:37 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think our nation's enemies will be able to play him like a Stradivarius.
Again, why? What specifically is wrong with his Iran policy? How does it differ from your Teddy Roosevelt solution? And from where are you divining this clairvoyant vision of him lacking "inner fortitude"? Put down the mud shovel for a moment and back up what you say with facts. If it's not too much trouble.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:37 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
We have a big stick. It's called the US Military and our nuclear arsenal.
It's the speaking softly part that has eluded the Bush administration, and McCain has followed suit with his stupid saber rattling for votes (Georgia, Iran, now *Spain?*)
Get. A. Clue.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:51 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's the speaking softly part that has eluded the Bush administration, and McCain has followed suit with his stupid saber rattling for votes (Georgia, Iran, now *Spain?*)
Get. A. Clue.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:51 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Christ, konolia you're too much... I think you should stick to defending your choice in president to the abortion issue. At least there, you're not going to dig yourself into a deeper hole.
Speak softly and carry a big stick? Bully for you! We have a NEWCLEAR arsenal that can erase life on the planet. Obama isn't getting rid of that. Obama will have the same big stick, but he will speak more before using military force. Blowing people up is not the best way to make friends and influence people.
When necessary, any president would use military force. The key there is when is it necessary? Bush and McCain thought that invading and occupying Iraq was necessary. McCain would shoot first and ask questions later. He actually sang "bomb bomb bomb Iran" and laughed. His partner's script is more of the same. Will we go to war with Russia if Russia annexes South Ossetia? The same South Ossetia that has wanted to be independent of Georgia since the USSR collapsed?
posted by birdherder at 7:58 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Speak softly and carry a big stick? Bully for you! We have a NEWCLEAR arsenal that can erase life on the planet. Obama isn't getting rid of that. Obama will have the same big stick, but he will speak more before using military force. Blowing people up is not the best way to make friends and influence people.
When necessary, any president would use military force. The key there is when is it necessary? Bush and McCain thought that invading and occupying Iraq was necessary. McCain would shoot first and ask questions later. He actually sang "bomb bomb bomb Iran" and laughed. His partner's script is more of the same. Will we go to war with Russia if Russia annexes South Ossetia? The same South Ossetia that has wanted to be independent of Georgia since the USSR collapsed?
posted by birdherder at 7:58 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
Criminy! We don't elected a damned King in this country. We elect a friggin' President! Whether or not you are able to see Obama's intestinal fortitude through the internet or not, he will appoint people to critical positions that are tops in their areas, and he WILL listen to them if what they recommend is the proper course of action.
Good Lord, are we all EIGHT YEARS OLD???
posted by psmealey at 8:09 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Criminy! We don't elected a damned King in this country. We elect a friggin' President! Whether or not you are able to see Obama's intestinal fortitude through the internet or not, he will appoint people to critical positions that are tops in their areas, and he WILL listen to them if what they recommend is the proper course of action.
Good Lord, are we all EIGHT YEARS OLD???
posted by psmealey at 8:09 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here, I'll even make it easier for you. Here is a handy checklist of aspects of Obama's Iran policy*. Feel free to tick off what you don't like about it, then explain why and/or offer an alternative solution.
[ ] Engage in direct talks with Iranian leaders.
[ ] Offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations only if nuclear ambitions and the support for terror are abandoned.
[ ] Impose sanctions with a global mandate.
[ ] Military action if absolutely necessary.
Seriously, I'm very curious what you would change about this, and what you'd have instead, your emotional judgement of Obama aside.
*(Keep in mind that this is pretty much the solution that worked in dealing with Libya, a country which, although far from being a bastion of free thinking and democracy, has gone from being a state which sponsored terror to a state which paid reparations to the families of the Lockerbie victims, has formerly renounced terror, and was one of the first to condemn the 911 attacks - thanks to a combination of diplomatic pressure and economic incentives. No regime change was even necessary. Funnily enough, the military strike we made on Libya only seemed to make Khaddafi further entrenched in his rhetoric. It was international pressure and incentives that turned him around. Even some of my staunchest Reaganite buddies hail our handling of Libya as a success story - although there is still a lot of work yet to do, no Libyan civilians needed to die, no American soldiers needed to die, and we didn't need to plunge our country into a crushing debt to make a positive impact on this country. I say this so you'll understand what the logic is behind my support of Obama's Iran policy.)
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:10 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
[ ] Engage in direct talks with Iranian leaders.
[ ] Offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations only if nuclear ambitions and the support for terror are abandoned.
[ ] Impose sanctions with a global mandate.
[ ] Military action if absolutely necessary.
Seriously, I'm very curious what you would change about this, and what you'd have instead, your emotional judgement of Obama aside.
*(Keep in mind that this is pretty much the solution that worked in dealing with Libya, a country which, although far from being a bastion of free thinking and democracy, has gone from being a state which sponsored terror to a state which paid reparations to the families of the Lockerbie victims, has formerly renounced terror, and was one of the first to condemn the 911 attacks - thanks to a combination of diplomatic pressure and economic incentives. No regime change was even necessary. Funnily enough, the military strike we made on Libya only seemed to make Khaddafi further entrenched in his rhetoric. It was international pressure and incentives that turned him around. Even some of my staunchest Reaganite buddies hail our handling of Libya as a success story - although there is still a lot of work yet to do, no Libyan civilians needed to die, no American soldiers needed to die, and we didn't need to plunge our country into a crushing debt to make a positive impact on this country. I say this so you'll understand what the logic is behind my support of Obama's Iran policy.)
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:10 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
We've come 1197 comments so far and I find it harder and harder not to consider you a troll konolia. Comment after comment of yours and all I see is personal anecdote, opinion, and rumor. You post every so often with responses that do nothing to further the discussion here. People have asked you repeatedly to back up your assertions or to provide relevance to your personal anecdotes and yet you still refuse to respond. Frankly I'm almost willing to consider you a bad faith poster, because you post something inflammatory and then never support your posts by responding to the people who engaged with you. Which is typical troll behavior. Are you trolling konolia?
posted by Axle at 8:20 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Axle at 8:20 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
And you base this on what, exactly? Did the witches you have tea with devine this through the entrails of chickens or is it your own gut feeling you're going with?
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
And you base this on what, exactly? Did the witches you have tea with devine this through the entrails of chickens or is it your own gut feeling you're going with?
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Elections are full of small amusing things if one looks for them. And believe me, I look for them.
You keep asking us to "believe you."
Simultaneously, you repeatedly post bald-faced lies.
I do not think "belief" has the meaning you think it does.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
You keep asking us to "believe you."
Simultaneously, you repeatedly post bald-faced lies.
I do not think "belief" has the meaning you think it does.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Konolia, do you believe in witches?
I've had conversation with Konolia about witches. She believes they exist, and really are able to muck around with supernatural powers.
Yah, I know.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:05 AM on September 20, 2008
I've had conversation with Konolia about witches. She believes they exist, and really are able to muck around with supernatural powers.
Yah, I know.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:05 AM on September 20, 2008
ABCNews : New Doubts Over Palin's Troopergate Claims -- "Internal Government Document Contradicts Sarah Palin, Campaign."
posted by ericb at 9:10 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericb at 9:10 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Keep in mind that this is pretty much the solution that worked in dealing with Libya, a country which, although far from being a bastion of free thinking and democracy, has gone from being a state which sponsored terror to a state which paid reparations to the families of the Lockerbie victims, has formerly renounced terror, and was one of the first to condemn the 911 attacks - thanks to a combination of diplomatic pressure and economic incentives.
Actually, the turning point with Libya is when we bombed them and in the process killed Khadafi's toddler daughter.
This turns my stomach-I had children her age when it happened-but after that we had Khadafi's attention.
posted by konolia at 9:13 AM on September 20, 2008
Actually, the turning point with Libya is when we bombed them and in the process killed Khadafi's toddler daughter.
This turns my stomach-I had children her age when it happened-but after that we had Khadafi's attention.
posted by konolia at 9:13 AM on September 20, 2008
Ah -- Ronald Reagan's directive in 1986 for airstrikes -- on of which killed Khadadi's adopted daughter and 36 other people; all in retaliation after two U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed in a Berlin disco bombing allegedly ordered by Khadafi.
posted by ericb at 9:18 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by ericb at 9:18 AM on September 20, 2008
Axle, I am not a troll. I am only a middleaged conservative woman who hates abortion, sees great big red flags with Obama, is not all that sanguine about McCain, is terrified about the direction this country seems to be headed, and is stuck here being the only conservative willing to post on this stuff on threads like this. Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
posted by konolia at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by konolia at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2008
This turns my stomach-I had children her age when it happened-but after that we had Khadafi's attention.
Whoa. You're admitting that killing babies is OK if it serves a legitimate foreign policy interest? Now that's a culture of mothaf**kin life!
Absolutely unbelievable.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [8 favorites]
Whoa. You're admitting that killing babies is OK if it serves a legitimate foreign policy interest? Now that's a culture of mothaf**kin life!
Absolutely unbelievable.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:21 AM on September 20, 2008 [8 favorites]
(Even if it's an absolutely insane statement to which there is not one shred of truth.)
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:23 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:23 AM on September 20, 2008
Actually, the turning point with Libya is when we bombed them and in the process killed Khadafi's toddler daughter.
That happened in 1986! So the UN sanctions didn't work at all, and Khadafi turned over the Lockerbie suspects in 1999 because his kid was killed thirteen years earlier. Khadfi abandoned its WMD aspirations in 2003 because of the 1986 bombing.
Of course the US "got his attention" in 1986 but to say that was the "turning point" is asinine. If anything, killing his child would make him more reluctant to cooperate with the rest of the world.
Of course the 1986 air strikes on Libya could explain McCain's coolness to Spain. Like France (oops sorry about your embassy in Tripoli!), Spain did not allow the fighters to fly over its airspace.
posted by birdherder at 9:34 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
That happened in 1986! So the UN sanctions didn't work at all, and Khadafi turned over the Lockerbie suspects in 1999 because his kid was killed thirteen years earlier. Khadfi abandoned its WMD aspirations in 2003 because of the 1986 bombing.
Of course the US "got his attention" in 1986 but to say that was the "turning point" is asinine. If anything, killing his child would make him more reluctant to cooperate with the rest of the world.
Of course the 1986 air strikes on Libya could explain McCain's coolness to Spain. Like France (oops sorry about your embassy in Tripoli!), Spain did not allow the fighters to fly over its airspace.
posted by birdherder at 9:34 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
I know it's the New York Times and all, and therefore a far less authoritative source than a certain someone, but here's the skinny:
Libyan Stagnation a Big Factor in Qaddafi Surprise
Money quote:
. . . . experts agree that the main factors underlying his [Qaddafi's] decision are more likely to be his disastrous economic policies at home, the squandering of Libya's bountiful oil resources and a deepening isolation that threatens any hopes for the country's future.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:36 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Libyan Stagnation a Big Factor in Qaddafi Surprise
Money quote:
. . . . experts agree that the main factors underlying his [Qaddafi's] decision are more likely to be his disastrous economic policies at home, the squandering of Libya's bountiful oil resources and a deepening isolation that threatens any hopes for the country's future.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:36 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
Treated how? Badly because you are asked to back-up your claims and statements -- which you conveniently ignore and fail to do?
posted by ericb at 9:39 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Treated how? Badly because you are asked to back-up your claims and statements -- which you conveniently ignore and fail to do?
posted by ericb at 9:39 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Ah, ye olde persecution complex at play once again!
posted by ericb at 9:42 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by ericb at 9:42 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
I am the first to say that I'm not up on internal Iranian politics, but all I know that the previous Iranian president, Khatami, was trying to liberalize the counrty from within (saw a documentary on him and his party, c2000). I was getting hopeful that Iran could become more of a liberal democracy (it is democratic, just not very liberal as in "open and free").
Next thing I know, the US has invaded Iraq, called Iran part of the "Axis of Evil", and started rattling sabers.
Then in the following presidential elections, a rabidly anti-American, as well as anti-Israel, President is elected. It seems to me that saber rattling is decidedly unsuccessful in dealing with hostile regimes, but rather successful in creating them.
I'm not afraid that McCain doesn't have enough backbone - I'm afraid that he has too much and that his intemperate (and very ill-informed) approach to international relations will make the world a more dangerous place than it was.
posted by jb at 9:44 AM on September 20, 2008 [6 favorites]
Next thing I know, the US has invaded Iraq, called Iran part of the "Axis of Evil", and started rattling sabers.
Then in the following presidential elections, a rabidly anti-American, as well as anti-Israel, President is elected. It seems to me that saber rattling is decidedly unsuccessful in dealing with hostile regimes, but rather successful in creating them.
I'm not afraid that McCain doesn't have enough backbone - I'm afraid that he has too much and that his intemperate (and very ill-informed) approach to international relations will make the world a more dangerous place than it was.
posted by jb at 9:44 AM on September 20, 2008 [6 favorites]
Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
There's a word for that, and it rhymes with wussies.
Seriously, there have been plenty of conservative MeFites who have more than held their own in fierce debates on this site.
This is schoolyard stuff -- my invisible friends (just like all those anecdotal neighbors) prove y'all wrong! Believe me!
You're welcome to your opinions, of course. But you are obligated to tell the truth if you choose to defend them. You tell so many lies, spread so much slander, and sling so much bullshit that it does your opinions no service to defend them the way you do. I concur that you're on safer ground reverting to "it's the abortion, and that's it." (Though I wonder if Giuliani were the candidate for the GOP whether you wouldn't be finding another single issue to view in starkly black and white terms to support the pro-choice cross-dressing self-aggrandizing junior league fascist former mayor of my city -- and I lived through the entirely RG administration.)
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:45 AM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
There's a word for that, and it rhymes with wussies.
Seriously, there have been plenty of conservative MeFites who have more than held their own in fierce debates on this site.
This is schoolyard stuff -- my invisible friends (just like all those anecdotal neighbors) prove y'all wrong! Believe me!
You're welcome to your opinions, of course. But you are obligated to tell the truth if you choose to defend them. You tell so many lies, spread so much slander, and sling so much bullshit that it does your opinions no service to defend them the way you do. I concur that you're on safer ground reverting to "it's the abortion, and that's it." (Though I wonder if Giuliani were the candidate for the GOP whether you wouldn't be finding another single issue to view in starkly black and white terms to support the pro-choice cross-dressing self-aggrandizing junior league fascist former mayor of my city -- and I lived through the entirely RG administration.)
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:45 AM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
...the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
Poll: Racial views steer some away from Obama.
posted by ericb at 9:52 AM on September 20, 2008
Poll: Racial views steer some away from Obama.
posted by ericb at 9:52 AM on September 20, 2008
entire, not entirely
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:54 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:54 AM on September 20, 2008
Treated how? Badly because you are asked to back-up your claims and statements -- which you conveniently ignore and fail to do?
I used to post on forums frequented by College Republicans. I got treated much worse as a minority point of view on those forums, and I always did my best to back up my claims with factual information. That being said, I don't think you can legitimately call konolia a troll. What's going on is an example of the backfire effect, whereby exposure to information refuting a belief only causes somebody to hold on even more tenaciously to that belief. We don't arrive at our beliefs purely through reason, but also through how we view our own identity and what we want to believe is true. Reason is important, but it's ability to change minds is highly overrated.
posted by jonp72 at 9:55 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I used to post on forums frequented by College Republicans. I got treated much worse as a minority point of view on those forums, and I always did my best to back up my claims with factual information. That being said, I don't think you can legitimately call konolia a troll. What's going on is an example of the backfire effect, whereby exposure to information refuting a belief only causes somebody to hold on even more tenaciously to that belief. We don't arrive at our beliefs purely through reason, but also through how we view our own identity and what we want to believe is true. Reason is important, but it's ability to change minds is highly overrated.
posted by jonp72 at 9:55 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Andrew Sullivan, Naomi Klein, Will.I.Am, and Bill Maher on Palin, race, and religion . . . it gets interesting and tense. Good watching. (YouTube link)
Worth it also to hear Naomi Klein call Palin "Bush in drag." Sullivan calls Palin a "farce." (Then he defends people of faith against Maher's usual smackdown riff on religion.)
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2008
Worth it also to hear Naomi Klein call Palin "Bush in drag." Sullivan calls Palin a "farce." (Then he defends people of faith against Maher's usual smackdown riff on religion.)
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2008
Poll: Racial views steer some away from Obama.
If Obama loses and it can be determined in any reliable fashion that it was plain old white racism that did it, this country is going to be so fucked. Imagine all of these young people awakened to the ideas of hope and idealism being told, "nope, the stupid racism of the adults stole it from you."
Ugly times.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:02 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
If Obama loses and it can be determined in any reliable fashion that it was plain old white racism that did it, this country is going to be so fucked. Imagine all of these young people awakened to the ideas of hope and idealism being told, "nope, the stupid racism of the adults stole it from you."
Ugly times.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:02 AM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
jonp72 -- you're exactly right. Well put.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:03 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:03 AM on September 20, 2008
Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
And we are to "believe you" when you say this, right. Because unlike all your other lies, this time you're telling the truth!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:04 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
And we are to "believe you" when you say this, right. Because unlike all your other lies, this time you're telling the truth!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:04 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Are you trolling konolia?
Between her trolling and dawson's concern trolling, the Big Palin Thread is a textbook on how to do so successfully. I bet a full third of that thread (and this one as well) deals exclusively with the trolling.
That people were actually thanking her for it is a touch of brilliance worthy of whatever hardware they hand out at the annual awards ceremony.
I just don't get the "respect" for konolia. It would be one thing if she had a consistent conservative, religious point of view which was backed up by cites, interesting statistics, facts, quotes, whatever...but it's always made-up bon mots, questionable anecdotes, outright lies and what seem like straight-from-the-party-memo talking points, all of which are called out, none of which are defended. That's not a position, that's disruption.
posted by maxwelton at 10:11 AM on September 20, 2008 [17 favorites]
Between her trolling and dawson's concern trolling, the Big Palin Thread is a textbook on how to do so successfully. I bet a full third of that thread (and this one as well) deals exclusively with the trolling.
That people were actually thanking her for it is a touch of brilliance worthy of whatever hardware they hand out at the annual awards ceremony.
I just don't get the "respect" for konolia. It would be one thing if she had a consistent conservative, religious point of view which was backed up by cites, interesting statistics, facts, quotes, whatever...but it's always made-up bon mots, questionable anecdotes, outright lies and what seem like straight-from-the-party-memo talking points, all of which are called out, none of which are defended. That's not a position, that's disruption.
posted by maxwelton at 10:11 AM on September 20, 2008 [17 favorites]
Oh wow. Reading the Anchorage Daily News has become like Christmas morning lately (I read ADN anyway for professional reasons, but it's usually something of a chore). First they accuse her of "abdicating" her governship in an editorial (linked above) and then the publish a comment by Alan Borras that asserts a whole new Chrstianist layer to troopergate. Hold on to your snowshoes, people.
Kopp hiring proved Palin's fundamentalist street cred
which begins
So far Gov. Palin's handling of Alaska's Troopergate has focused on why Commissioner of Public Safety Walt Monegan was fired. An equally important question is why Chuck Kopp was hired to replace him.
and ends
Whether or not Sarah Palin pandered to the Christian fundamentalist right on the back of a good man's career and believes she was chosen by God only she can say. Likewise, only John McCain can say whether he sold his political soul and selected the least prepared vice presidential candidate in United States history for the sake of political gain. The electorate deserves some answers.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:13 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Kopp hiring proved Palin's fundamentalist street cred
which begins
So far Gov. Palin's handling of Alaska's Troopergate has focused on why Commissioner of Public Safety Walt Monegan was fired. An equally important question is why Chuck Kopp was hired to replace him.
and ends
Whether or not Sarah Palin pandered to the Christian fundamentalist right on the back of a good man's career and believes she was chosen by God only she can say. Likewise, only John McCain can say whether he sold his political soul and selected the least prepared vice presidential candidate in United States history for the sake of political gain. The electorate deserves some answers.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:13 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
As to Iran-my foreign policy plan is basically talk softly and carry a big stick.
That's not a policy, it's a platitude. But in any case, it's closer to Obama than McCain.
Currently, our policy is that we don't talk to the Iranians - softly or otherwise - and we reserve the right to preemptively go to war if we think they will be a threat in the future.
Our misadventure in Iraq - which was by any rational measure a mistake - has strengthened Iran as a regional power.
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
On what do you base that observation? I'm genuinely curious. Neither of us know anything about his inner fortitude, other than that he obviously has enough to run a very tight campaign. If he does half as good a job as President as he's done with his campaign, he'll be the best president of recent memory.
I am not a troll. I am only a middleaged conservative woman who hates abortion, sees great big red flags with Obama, is not all that sanguine about McCain, is terrified about the direction this country seems to be headed, and is stuck here being the only conservative willing to post on this stuff on threads like this.
No, you are not a troll. Trolls generally provide better arguments than you do. You post opinions, without justifications, without facts, without argument. If you're terrified about he direction this country seems to be headed, it seems you'd want someone who doesn't agree with the decisions of the last eight years.
If you want people to stop calling you a troll, back up your opinions with facts and cogent arguments. At least, answer direct questions for once.
And as for conservatism, well, it's "conservatives" like you who give it a bad name. I used to be a conservatism, back when conservatism meant limited federal government, no federal deficits, and keeping big government out of my private affairs. Those were the days.
You, konolia, are no conservative. You want the government to be big enough to wage perpetual war and to legislate your morality into everyone's business. That, konolia, is not conservatism.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:33 AM on September 20, 2008 [7 favorites]
That's not a policy, it's a platitude. But in any case, it's closer to Obama than McCain.
Currently, our policy is that we don't talk to the Iranians - softly or otherwise - and we reserve the right to preemptively go to war if we think they will be a threat in the future.
Our misadventure in Iraq - which was by any rational measure a mistake - has strengthened Iran as a regional power.
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
On what do you base that observation? I'm genuinely curious. Neither of us know anything about his inner fortitude, other than that he obviously has enough to run a very tight campaign. If he does half as good a job as President as he's done with his campaign, he'll be the best president of recent memory.
I am not a troll. I am only a middleaged conservative woman who hates abortion, sees great big red flags with Obama, is not all that sanguine about McCain, is terrified about the direction this country seems to be headed, and is stuck here being the only conservative willing to post on this stuff on threads like this.
No, you are not a troll. Trolls generally provide better arguments than you do. You post opinions, without justifications, without facts, without argument. If you're terrified about he direction this country seems to be headed, it seems you'd want someone who doesn't agree with the decisions of the last eight years.
If you want people to stop calling you a troll, back up your opinions with facts and cogent arguments. At least, answer direct questions for once.
And as for conservatism, well, it's "conservatives" like you who give it a bad name. I used to be a conservatism, back when conservatism meant limited federal government, no federal deficits, and keeping big government out of my private affairs. Those were the days.
You, konolia, are no conservative. You want the government to be big enough to wage perpetual war and to legislate your morality into everyone's business. That, konolia, is not conservatism.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:33 AM on September 20, 2008 [7 favorites]
So this comes down to an idea that you have that Obama would not use military strength if diplomacy failed?
What reason do you have for saying that? He's made clear that he's ready and willing to serve as Commander-in-Chief:
IN addition, his platform includes current plans for the use of military power immediately - as he draws down Iraw, he proposes to increase presence and activity in Afghanistan, sending two full brigades to fight the Taliban resurgence, which has blown up as we devoted energyand attention to the Iraq surge. And he places a great deal of emphasis on rebuilding readiness. As we know, BUsh's management has left us defensively weak and quite vulnerable, as a nation. There is a shortage of officers. Academy graduates are leaving the force. Bush has taken away G.I. benefits, reduced funding for veterans' medical treatment, overcommitted our forces to progressively longer deployments which leave the United States (and its families) weaker at home and spend out human resources that might be needed if we are attacked again. The Stars & Stripes reported last year:
Air Force Readiness Down 17% Since 2001
Military Leaders Tell Bush Troops Strained
Obama is able to listen and to exercise informed judgement based on evidence and solid advice, which I think is what makes you feel, konolia, that he's soft. I know it's a lot more attractive, and lends a sense of security, to see a leader talking tough and resorting to the use of the military quicky and without provocation. That appearance of strength is exciting. But it's a false sense of security. It's an illusion, not a reality. The military is weaker than it's been in decades. The "talking tough" strategy is a dangerous one; used against belligerents who are ready to go to extremes for their causes, just escalates violence much more quickly and breaks down any move toward the ultimate goal - stability and peaceful international relations. I think we'd be a lot better off with a Commander-in-Chief who reasons from existing conditions and listens to the armed forces rather than continues to execute a world ideology of pushing forced democracy on nations that have no ability to sustain it, without regard to realities on the ground - what Bush has done and McCain proposes. We need to remain the strongest military power on earth, and at this rate, we're not going to be able to maintain that. Not with more than 50% of West Point graduates leaving the service for private careers since Bush took office, many citing poor conditions in the military. Hell, we're not going to be able to pay for it anyway, if we don't change our spending on the deficit and begin reducing the national debt.
So maybe you could rethink what you think good leadership is: talking toughand making rash mistakes that weaken our armed forces and put us in a vulnerable position domestically and internationally, or making wise, informed, strategic decisions with a view toward long-term stability in the world.posted by Miko at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2008 [17 favorites]
What reason do you have for saying that? He's made clear that he's ready and willing to serve as Commander-in-Chief:
Barack Obama believes that No president should ever hesitate to use force – unilaterally if necessary – to protect America and our vital interests when we are attacked or imminently threatened. But when we use force in situations other than self-defense, we should make every effort to garner the clear support and participation of others – the kind of burden-sharing and support President George H.W. Bush rallied before he launched Operation Desert Storm.I recommend you rad his position paper on defense. There's a lot of interesting stuff there, things you might be interested in as a parent of a serviceperson, especially given the possibility that Obama will be his next boss.
IN addition, his platform includes current plans for the use of military power immediately - as he draws down Iraw, he proposes to increase presence and activity in Afghanistan, sending two full brigades to fight the Taliban resurgence, which has blown up as we devoted energyand attention to the Iraq surge. And he places a great deal of emphasis on rebuilding readiness. As we know, BUsh's management has left us defensively weak and quite vulnerable, as a nation. There is a shortage of officers. Academy graduates are leaving the force. Bush has taken away G.I. benefits, reduced funding for veterans' medical treatment, overcommitted our forces to progressively longer deployments which leave the United States (and its families) weaker at home and spend out human resources that might be needed if we are attacked again. The Stars & Stripes reported last year:
Air Force Readiness Down 17% Since 2001
Personnel and airframes are both feeling the strain of high operations tempos provoked by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, added Gen. Ronald Keys, Commander of the Air Combat Command.In March, we saw this article:
The Air Force uses a sliding scale of C1 to C4 to measure the readiness, with units graded C1 and C2 prepared to “go and accomplish the mission,” he said.
But when units are rated C3 or C4, “you have to find major workarounds,” Keys said.
Since 2001, the Air Force has seen “the percentage of units in C1 and C2 [status] in a steady decline,” Keys said.
“Wear and tear on the fleet is visible,” said Gen. Duncan McNabb, Commander of the Air Mobility Command.
But personnel are also a concern, Keys said, especially the so-called “one-to-one dwell time.”
One-to-one dwell is what the Air Force calls the six months on, six months off deployment schedule airmen with high-demand skills, such as air transport crews, military police, or intelligence experts, are experiencing.
The troop increase for Iraq announced by President Bush in January put an additional strain on air transport capabilities, McNabb said...
Military Leaders Tell Bush Troops Strained
WASHINGTON (AP) — Behind the Pentagon's closed doors, U.S. military leaders told President Bush Wednesday they are worried about the Iraq war's mounting strain on troops and their families. But they indicated they'd go along with a brief halt in pulling out troops this summer.Does this look to you like good military management? I'm from an Army family and I'm not naive about international threats and the need for a strong national defense program. But I think Obama's approach will be much more strategic and will actually enhance, not diminish, our national security. His military advisors are truly excellent people with a tremendous amount of combined experience in defense service.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff did say senior commanders in Iraq should make more frequent assessments of security conditions, an idea that appeared aimed at increasing pressure for more rapid troop reductions.
The chiefs' concern is that U.S. forces are being worn thin, compromising the Pentagon's ability to handle crises elsewhere in the world.
...Wednesday's 90-minute Pentagon session, held in a secure conference room known as "the Tank," was arranged by Defense Secretary Robert Gates to provide Bush an additional set of military views as he prepares to decide how to proceed in Iraq once his troop buildup, which began in 2007, runs its course by July.
...The Joint Chiefs are particularly concerned about Afghanistan and an increasingly active Taliban insurgency.
Obama is able to listen and to exercise informed judgement based on evidence and solid advice, which I think is what makes you feel, konolia, that he's soft. I know it's a lot more attractive, and lends a sense of security, to see a leader talking tough and resorting to the use of the military quicky and without provocation. That appearance of strength is exciting. But it's a false sense of security. It's an illusion, not a reality. The military is weaker than it's been in decades. The "talking tough" strategy is a dangerous one; used against belligerents who are ready to go to extremes for their causes, just escalates violence much more quickly and breaks down any move toward the ultimate goal - stability and peaceful international relations. I think we'd be a lot better off with a Commander-in-Chief who reasons from existing conditions and listens to the armed forces rather than continues to execute a world ideology of pushing forced democracy on nations that have no ability to sustain it, without regard to realities on the ground - what Bush has done and McCain proposes. We need to remain the strongest military power on earth, and at this rate, we're not going to be able to maintain that. Not with more than 50% of West Point graduates leaving the service for private careers since Bush took office, many citing poor conditions in the military. Hell, we're not going to be able to pay for it anyway, if we don't change our spending on the deficit and begin reducing the national debt.
So maybe you could rethink what you think good leadership is: talking toughand making rash mistakes that weaken our armed forces and put us in a vulnerable position domestically and internationally, or making wise, informed, strategic decisions with a view toward long-term stability in the world.posted by Miko at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2008 [17 favorites]
other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
Oh, that's B.S. No one is treating you badly - asking a commenter to be accountable for their views isn't treating you badly. If indeed anyone is emailing you, tell 'em to grow a pair and start sticking up for what they believe in. I wish they'd post, because they might actually have some reasoning and some sources that would provide a more robust argument for their point of view.
It seems pretty clear, konolia, that you're basically willing to accept and defend the status quo ad infinitum as long as your leaders continue to say they'll act to outlaw abortion. I agree that you should just be honest about that. If that's not accurate, then you need to provide some meaningful response to the many unanswered questions here in order to demonstrate otherwise.
posted by Miko at 10:43 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Oh, that's B.S. No one is treating you badly - asking a commenter to be accountable for their views isn't treating you badly. If indeed anyone is emailing you, tell 'em to grow a pair and start sticking up for what they believe in. I wish they'd post, because they might actually have some reasoning and some sources that would provide a more robust argument for their point of view.
It seems pretty clear, konolia, that you're basically willing to accept and defend the status quo ad infinitum as long as your leaders continue to say they'll act to outlaw abortion. I agree that you should just be honest about that. If that's not accurate, then you need to provide some meaningful response to the many unanswered questions here in order to demonstrate otherwise.
posted by Miko at 10:43 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
There's more in the amazing ADN story about Kopp I linked to above -- it ties troopergate as Palin's blood oath to the Christianist right (prove you'll fire Monegan and replace him with our boy and we'll advance you as a national politician), and to their fronting her as the VP of choice, foisted on McCain in exchange for Christianist support. Far from being a maverick, inspired pick, indeed, Palin may have been forced on McCain against his wishes or better judgment, and she may have been groomed for the spot.
Subsequent events suggest that the price of support for McCain by the fundamentalist Christian leadership would be a vice presidential candidate of their liking. Gov. Palin was a logical choice for Franklin Graham, whose ties to Alaska include a palatial, by Bush Alaska standards, second home in Port Alsworth: a community that has often served as a retreat for Christian fundamentalist leaders.
Mind you, it's one commentary in one newspaper (that knows Palin well and has been way ahead of the investigative curve since all this crap started with Palin). It's implications and speculation, though there's a solid logic to the speculation.
If this is true, it's the fork being stuck in McCain. If it is revealed that he was forced to accept Palin, he loses everything.
I say once again that this looks speculative. But it's fascinating. Hmmmmm.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2008
Subsequent events suggest that the price of support for McCain by the fundamentalist Christian leadership would be a vice presidential candidate of their liking. Gov. Palin was a logical choice for Franklin Graham, whose ties to Alaska include a palatial, by Bush Alaska standards, second home in Port Alsworth: a community that has often served as a retreat for Christian fundamentalist leaders.
Mind you, it's one commentary in one newspaper (that knows Palin well and has been way ahead of the investigative curve since all this crap started with Palin). It's implications and speculation, though there's a solid logic to the speculation.
If this is true, it's the fork being stuck in McCain. If it is revealed that he was forced to accept Palin, he loses everything.
I say once again that this looks speculative. But it's fascinating. Hmmmmm.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2008
Axle, I am not a troll. I am only a middleaged conservative woman who hates abortion, sees great big red flags with Obama, is not all that sanguine about McCain, is terrified about the direction this country seems to be headed, and is stuck here being the only conservative willing to post on this stuff on threads like this. Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
If you aren't a troll, then why do you exhibit trollish behavior? Actions speak louder than words, and what you're doing right now is trollish.
You do not promote discourse and conversation. Many times over, people respond to what you say, asking you for the reasons you feel the way you do. Do you answer them? Provide the rest of us with an interesting back-and-forth between interesting viewpoints? No. You ignore those that would engage with you and post more things that you have to know will provoke arguments. That's trollish, right there.
I'm all for people giving personal anecdotes and feelings about a topic, once. This is what you do all the time. It's shallow, it provides the rest of us with nothing save that you believe something. I'm going to quote the two moderators who've posted in this thread in regards to you, as they appear to me to be good people with exceptionally reasoned advice:
cortex: konolia, can you talk specifically about what things youre learning about it, and what specifically is turning you off? As far as understanding where other folks are coming from, details on the front are certainly more interesting to me than just knowing you don't like him as a candidate (much as I presume you get more use out of hearing why someone distrusts or dislikes Palin than from just hearing that said distrust/dislike exists).
jessamyn: konolia in the interests of having a conversation instead of "a referendum on what konolia thinks about everything", would you mind actually talking about what you are talking about instead of merely alluding to it? I appreciate your trying to give the conservative/Republican perspective on some of this, but this sort of I Spy guessing game about what's on your mind wastes everyone's time and inhibits real conversation.
Will you please answer the questions of those that would discuss the things you find important? We'll all be better off if you did.
As for the other conservatives, they have a right, like anyone else on this site, to say what they believe and to not be silenced for it. Sure, we've got a large contingent of know-it-alls who don't understand when they're stamping out viewpoints, but they're all gone from this thread, and if anyone ever gets too offensive, flag it and move on as they say.
I'm going to take my own advice now and back out of this thread, because I'm not adding anything to the conversation. My only wish is that you'll start participating instead of dodging.
posted by Axle at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
If you aren't a troll, then why do you exhibit trollish behavior? Actions speak louder than words, and what you're doing right now is trollish.
You do not promote discourse and conversation. Many times over, people respond to what you say, asking you for the reasons you feel the way you do. Do you answer them? Provide the rest of us with an interesting back-and-forth between interesting viewpoints? No. You ignore those that would engage with you and post more things that you have to know will provoke arguments. That's trollish, right there.
I'm all for people giving personal anecdotes and feelings about a topic, once. This is what you do all the time. It's shallow, it provides the rest of us with nothing save that you believe something. I'm going to quote the two moderators who've posted in this thread in regards to you, as they appear to me to be good people with exceptionally reasoned advice:
cortex: konolia, can you talk specifically about what things youre learning about it, and what specifically is turning you off? As far as understanding where other folks are coming from, details on the front are certainly more interesting to me than just knowing you don't like him as a candidate (much as I presume you get more use out of hearing why someone distrusts or dislikes Palin than from just hearing that said distrust/dislike exists).
jessamyn: konolia in the interests of having a conversation instead of "a referendum on what konolia thinks about everything", would you mind actually talking about what you are talking about instead of merely alluding to it? I appreciate your trying to give the conservative/Republican perspective on some of this, but this sort of I Spy guessing game about what's on your mind wastes everyone's time and inhibits real conversation.
Will you please answer the questions of those that would discuss the things you find important? We'll all be better off if you did.
As for the other conservatives, they have a right, like anyone else on this site, to say what they believe and to not be silenced for it. Sure, we've got a large contingent of know-it-alls who don't understand when they're stamping out viewpoints, but they're all gone from this thread, and if anyone ever gets too offensive, flag it and move on as they say.
I'm going to take my own advice now and back out of this thread, because I'm not adding anything to the conversation. My only wish is that you'll start participating instead of dodging.
posted by Axle at 10:51 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Further evidence is actually in this thread -- Miko's link to the story about Wikipedia's Palin entry being edited in advance of her being selected, and konolia's admission that news of Palin's pick was circulating in advance in her circles, which we know are Christianist ones and "connected by marriage" to the GOP establishment in NC, an establishment where Christianists definitely have a lot of power and might be in on such a plan.
So -- if any of this is true -- the surprise here was not Palin; it was McCain's susceptibility to the Jesus Mafia's offer he couldn't refuse.
Please let it be true, Jesus. I may believe yet.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:53 AM on September 20, 2008
So -- if any of this is true -- the surprise here was not Palin; it was McCain's susceptibility to the Jesus Mafia's offer he couldn't refuse.
Please let it be true, Jesus. I may believe yet.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:53 AM on September 20, 2008
Actually, the turning point with Libya is when we bombed them and in the process killed Khadafi's toddler daughter.
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
Scrolling through this thread, there's a pattern of you making baseless assertions, being asked by others to clarify, and you either completely ignoring these questions or responding with anecdotes, dismissal and lies. So do drop the pretention of having weighed different aspects of both candidates and having come to a reasoned conclusion. McCain-Palin think abortion should be illegal, and that's why you're voting for them. Stick with that. Don't pretend you know or understand much of anything about any of the other issues at stake.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
Scrolling through this thread, there's a pattern of you making baseless assertions, being asked by others to clarify, and you either completely ignoring these questions or responding with anecdotes, dismissal and lies. So do drop the pretention of having weighed different aspects of both candidates and having come to a reasoned conclusion. McCain-Palin think abortion should be illegal, and that's why you're voting for them. Stick with that. Don't pretend you know or understand much of anything about any of the other issues at stake.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I’m a little confused. Let me see if I have this straight…
posted by ericb at 10:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [31 favorites]
-- If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you’re “exotic, different.”OK, much clearer now!
-- Grow up in Alaska eating moose burgers, a quintessential American story.
-- If your name is Barack you’re a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.
-- Name your kids Willow, Trig and Track, you’re a maverick.
-- Graduate from Harvard Law School and you are unstable.
-- Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you’re well grounded.
-- If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over 750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate’s Health and Human Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran’s Affairs committees, you don’t have any real leadership experience.
-- If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you’re qualified to become the country’s second highest ranking executive.
-- If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you’re not a real Christian.
-- If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and left your disfigured wife and married the heiress the next month, you’re a Christian.
-- If you teach responsible, age appropriate sex education, including the proper use of birth control, you are eroding the fiber of society.
-- If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex education in your state’s school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up pregnant , you’re very responsible.
-- If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family’s values don’t represent America’s.
-- If you’re husband is nicknamed “First Dude”, with at least one DWI conviction and no college education, who didn’t register to vote until age 25 and once was a member of a group that advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your family is extremely admirable.
posted by ericb at 10:59 AM on September 20, 2008 [31 favorites]
ericb, that needs to go viral too. amazingly well said.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:03 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:03 AM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
By the way, Alan Boraas, who wrote the ADN piece, is someone I know from professional colleagues to be credible. He's an anthropologist who also works with Native Alaskans, and an endangered language activist as well as a professor at UofA. He's no crank.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:05 AM on September 20, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:05 AM on September 20, 2008
ericb, that needs to go viral too. amazingly well said.
It has already ... via e-mails and posted on numerous blogs.
posted by ericb at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2008
It has already ... via e-mails and posted on numerous blogs.
posted by ericb at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2008
And drip drip drip. Gallup today shows Obama 50, McCain 44.
Like Palin never happened.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2008
Like Palin never happened.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2008
ericb, that needs to go viral too. amazingly well said.
It has; I've had that emailed to me at least five times over the last week or so.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:18 AM on September 20, 2008
It has; I've had that emailed to me at least five times over the last week or so.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:18 AM on September 20, 2008
Whoa. McCain up over Obama in *South* Carolina by only six points . . . . (Rasmussen). And in WEST Virginia by only four points (ARG)! 2 points in Montana (ARG). Ahead in Indiana (Selzer).
Most of this is from before the sharp uptick in Obama's national tracking numbers, and the financial crisis really breaking into the national consciousness and while Palin was still melting down.
So what the heck was that about small town voters? For all intents and purposes we're tied in rural America outside the deep south, or leading.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:22 AM on September 20, 2008
Most of this is from before the sharp uptick in Obama's national tracking numbers, and the financial crisis really breaking into the national consciousness and while Palin was still melting down.
So what the heck was that about small town voters? For all intents and purposes we're tied in rural America outside the deep south, or leading.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:22 AM on September 20, 2008
The Bush Legacy: Need $700 Billion For Bailout... Taliban Thriving In Afghanistan... Bailout Cost $1 Trillion... Iraq Over $1 Trillion... Treasury Secretary: "Financial Security Of All Americans Depends On Our Ability To Restore Our Financial Institutions" ... 4161 Soldiers Killed In Iraq...
Four more years! Four more years!!!
posted by ericb at 11:29 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Four more years! Four more years!!!
posted by ericb at 11:29 AM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
and konolia's admission that news of Palin's pick was circulating in advance in her circles, which we know are Christianist ones and "connected by marriage" to the GOP establishment in NC, an establishment where Christianists definitely have a lot of power and might be in on such a plan.
Uh, not really. We got our heads-up from a more liberal section of the Party.
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 20, 2008
Uh, not really. We got our heads-up from a more liberal section of the Party.
posted by konolia at 11:32 AM on September 20, 2008
Like Palin never happened.
Ding dong, the witch(hunter)'s dead?
Now we can get back to worrying about voter suppression and election theft.
posted by scody at 11:38 AM on September 20, 2008
Ding dong, the witch(hunter)'s dead?
Now we can get back to worrying about voter suppression and election theft.
posted by scody at 11:38 AM on September 20, 2008
Though I wonder if Giuliani were the candidate for the GOP whether you wouldn't be finding another single issue to view in starkly black and white terms to support the pro-choice cross-dressing self-aggrandizing junior league fascist former mayor of my city -- and I lived through the entirely RG administration
If he'd been the nominee, my butt would be sitting home on Election Day.
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
That's a helluva thing to say to someone with a black son-in-law and biracial grandchild.
Palin refuses to answer the press
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
Were you even alive when this happened? I remember how much trouble Khadafi was before the bombings; afterward, not so much.
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
posted by konolia at 11:47 AM on September 20, 2008
If he'd been the nominee, my butt would be sitting home on Election Day.
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
That's a helluva thing to say to someone with a black son-in-law and biracial grandchild.
Palin refuses to answer the press
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
Were you even alive when this happened? I remember how much trouble Khadafi was before the bombings; afterward, not so much.
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
posted by konolia at 11:47 AM on September 20, 2008
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
No one said that Palin was refusing to take questions from lapdogs. What she won't talk to is the press.
posted by scody at 11:57 AM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
No one said that Palin was refusing to take questions from lapdogs. What she won't talk to is the press.
posted by scody at 11:57 AM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
Were you even alive when this happened?
As a matter of fact, yes, I was alive and politically aware when this happened, thanks for asking. Sweet of you to toss that in there, irrelevant though it may be. But don't let things like actual cited facts and analysis just a couple of posts further up in this thread deter you from sticking by your own empty position. Lemme guess - you knew a Libyan at the Rotary Club, so you've got the inside track?
Stop dodging honest and simple questions, flinging mud and starting arguments you have no intention of following through with facts. It's tiresome and no longer funny.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:02 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
As a matter of fact, yes, I was alive and politically aware when this happened, thanks for asking. Sweet of you to toss that in there, irrelevant though it may be. But don't let things like actual cited facts and analysis just a couple of posts further up in this thread deter you from sticking by your own empty position. Lemme guess - you knew a Libyan at the Rotary Club, so you've got the inside track?
Stop dodging honest and simple questions, flinging mud and starting arguments you have no intention of following through with facts. It's tiresome and no longer funny.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:02 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Uh, not really. We got our heads-up from a more liberal section of the Party.
So you say now. I have no idea what to believe from you any more.
That's a helluva thing to say to someone with a black son-in-law and biracial grandchild.
Yes, you've used some version of this argument before. Means nothing. Rather like saying Michelle Malkin can't be a racist because she's Asian.
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
Right, but evasive. There's no reasonable sense in which Hannity is a journalist representing "the press." He's a partisan activist.
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
Red herring alert. So do many other state legislators in Illinois. You don't know anything about the legislative process in Illinois. Registering "present" is a way to register dissatisfaction or criticism without holding up legislation that will otherwise pass no matter how you vote and where you support the general thrust of the legislation.
You're way down the list of talking points now, though, in your search for a subject changer that will stick. If you really cared about the answer to that question, as in it would really sway your opinion of anything, it would be worth a detailed response. Suffice it say that Obama is overwhelmingly popular in Illinois.
No idea whether to believe you about Giuliani. Like I said, I just can't tell when you're violating the 9th commandment any more.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:02 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
So you say now. I have no idea what to believe from you any more.
That's a helluva thing to say to someone with a black son-in-law and biracial grandchild.
Yes, you've used some version of this argument before. Means nothing. Rather like saying Michelle Malkin can't be a racist because she's Asian.
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
Right, but evasive. There's no reasonable sense in which Hannity is a journalist representing "the press." He's a partisan activist.
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
Red herring alert. So do many other state legislators in Illinois. You don't know anything about the legislative process in Illinois. Registering "present" is a way to register dissatisfaction or criticism without holding up legislation that will otherwise pass no matter how you vote and where you support the general thrust of the legislation.
You're way down the list of talking points now, though, in your search for a subject changer that will stick. If you really cared about the answer to that question, as in it would really sway your opinion of anything, it would be worth a detailed response. Suffice it say that Obama is overwhelmingly popular in Illinois.
No idea whether to believe you about Giuliani. Like I said, I just can't tell when you're violating the 9th commandment any more.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:02 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
For those who need some sunshine, Barack's speaking live in Jacksonville, FL, right now. Streaming here.
He's been electric on the stump this week, so if you need some fortitude to go with the hope, check it out. (3PM EST)
Not sure how many attendees, but supposedly thousands are waiting outside the gates even though it's full. Compare this to McCain's 2/3 empty house in J'ville last week.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:14 PM on September 20, 2008
He's been electric on the stump this week, so if you need some fortitude to go with the hope, check it out. (3PM EST)
Not sure how many attendees, but supposedly thousands are waiting outside the gates even though it's full. Compare this to McCain's 2/3 empty house in J'ville last week.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:14 PM on September 20, 2008
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
McCain misses more senate votes in 110th Congress than any other senator!
posted by ericb at 12:15 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
McCain misses more senate votes in 110th Congress than any other senator!
posted by ericb at 12:15 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
You're way down the list of talking points now, though, in your search for a subject changer that will stick.
Yeah. She's now throwing out random shit to see if anything will stick. And nothing is.
posted by ericb at 12:18 PM on September 20, 2008
Yeah. She's now throwing out random shit to see if anything will stick. And nothing is.
posted by ericb at 12:18 PM on September 20, 2008
Jon Stewart slams Hannity’s “hard-hitting” Palin interview
posted by homunculus at 12:20 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by homunculus at 12:20 PM on September 20, 2008
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
I personally doubt that about konolia.
Oh, that's B.S. No one is treating you badly
I disagree. People have repeatedly taken g a personal tone with Konolia and called her names, due in part to their utter frustration with their ability to make her "see the light" so to speak.
What I gathered from this and the other thread is that konolia is essentially voting for the lesser of two evils in her eyes. She's not really happy with McCain, but Obama scares the hell outta her. I'm guessing it's because he looks and sounds like a slick politician. He looks a bit too comfortable in his suit, like the sorta of man who, when the pipe under the sink breaks, calls someone else as opposed to getting down on his knees, suit or no suit, and at least trying to fix it himself. It's nice that he's spent the last however months running a campaign about himself and managed to convince a lot of people to vote for him, but what has he really done that's worthwhile, you know?
It's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there, that's fine, we're (and here I'm attempting to explain what conservatives like konolia are thinking, not that I agree with them) not saying he's a bad person, not at all. He just seems like the sort of person who maybe started out like one of us, but then went on to something else and forgot where he came from. Say what you will about McCain, he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
Seriously, what kinda man (again, I'm channeling where I think konolia is coming from), when asked when a baby really becomes a person, answers "that's above my pay grade?!" The kinda man who's spent too much time in the books and not enough time actually dealing with the world. He can't even honestly say what he thinks?! Hell no, that's a person you can trust, especially when the chips are down and the chips look they're going to be coming down all across America.
konolia, is this about right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I personally doubt that about konolia.
Oh, that's B.S. No one is treating you badly
I disagree. People have repeatedly taken g a personal tone with Konolia and called her names, due in part to their utter frustration with their ability to make her "see the light" so to speak.
What I gathered from this and the other thread is that konolia is essentially voting for the lesser of two evils in her eyes. She's not really happy with McCain, but Obama scares the hell outta her. I'm guessing it's because he looks and sounds like a slick politician. He looks a bit too comfortable in his suit, like the sorta of man who, when the pipe under the sink breaks, calls someone else as opposed to getting down on his knees, suit or no suit, and at least trying to fix it himself. It's nice that he's spent the last however months running a campaign about himself and managed to convince a lot of people to vote for him, but what has he really done that's worthwhile, you know?
It's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there, that's fine, we're (and here I'm attempting to explain what conservatives like konolia are thinking, not that I agree with them) not saying he's a bad person, not at all. He just seems like the sort of person who maybe started out like one of us, but then went on to something else and forgot where he came from. Say what you will about McCain, he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
Seriously, what kinda man (again, I'm channeling where I think konolia is coming from), when asked when a baby really becomes a person, answers "that's above my pay grade?!" The kinda man who's spent too much time in the books and not enough time actually dealing with the world. He can't even honestly say what he thinks?! Hell no, that's a person you can trust, especially when the chips are down and the chips look they're going to be coming down all across America.
konolia, is this about right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
He looks like that, but he owns 7 houses and has a wife worth 100 million or so.
What you're saying is that she's ignorant and proud of it. I think the consensus here would agree.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
He looks like that, but he owns 7 houses and has a wife worth 100 million or so.
What you're saying is that she's ignorant and proud of it. I think the consensus here would agree.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
People have repeatedly taken g a personal tone with Konolia and called her names, due in part to their utter frustration with their ability to make her "see the light" so to speak.
I personally don't labor under any delusions of "coverting" konolia, and I think few do anymore. Mostly, this is an exercise in trying to get a straight answer to an honest question. Any honest question. The fact that you've had to "channel" what you think konolia might be thinking or believing is a testament to how little substance she's actually contributed in this discussion. Just the standard rotation of stir shit, ignore questions, make a biographical anecdote, stir more shit. The Iran policy is just one example of many - flat out says Obama is wrong, is asked to articulate why, replies that she doesn't "trust" him, and then hey, look, an e-mail forward!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I personally don't labor under any delusions of "coverting" konolia, and I think few do anymore. Mostly, this is an exercise in trying to get a straight answer to an honest question. Any honest question. The fact that you've had to "channel" what you think konolia might be thinking or believing is a testament to how little substance she's actually contributed in this discussion. Just the standard rotation of stir shit, ignore questions, make a biographical anecdote, stir more shit. The Iran policy is just one example of many - flat out says Obama is wrong, is asked to articulate why, replies that she doesn't "trust" him, and then hey, look, an e-mail forward!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
konolia: If he'd been the nominee, my butt would be sitting home on Election Day.
...
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
This seems hypocritical. In the very same comment, you seem to be criticizing Obama for voting present, while claiming that you would have used a similar voting tactic had Giuliai been nominated.
posted by gruchall at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
...
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
This seems hypocritical. In the very same comment, you seem to be criticizing Obama for voting present, while claiming that you would have used a similar voting tactic had Giuliai been nominated.
posted by gruchall at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Were you even alive when this happened? I remember how much trouble Khadafi was before the bombings; afterward, not so much.
Bombing of Libya: April 15, 1986.
Libyan Arms Supplied to the Provisional IRA: November 1, 1987.
Pan Am Flight 103 Bombing | Lockerbie: December 21, 1988.
posted by ericb at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Bombing of Libya: April 15, 1986.
Libyan Arms Supplied to the Provisional IRA: November 1, 1987.
Pan Am Flight 103 Bombing | Lockerbie: December 21, 1988.
posted by ericb at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
People like konolia, well -
"Guys like us, we're not not some brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We're not members of the factinista. We go straight from the gut....That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works. "posted by casarkos at 12:39 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Say what you will about McCain, he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
I guess he's the only American who will pick lettuce for $50 an hour.
posted by lukemeister at 12:43 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I guess he's the only American who will pick lettuce for $50 an hour.
posted by lukemeister at 12:43 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there...
Umm...the Harvard Law Review isn't "some newspaper," but one of the most esteemed legal journals in the U.S. Many of its articles have had immense impact on the legal landscape of our nation.
Being named the "President" of the Harvard Law Review is quite an achievement...and Obama was named the first black president ever.
Members of the HLR often go on to distinguished careers. HLR alums include, among others:
Umm...the Harvard Law Review isn't "some newspaper," but one of the most esteemed legal journals in the U.S. Many of its articles have had immense impact on the legal landscape of our nation.
Being named the "President" of the Harvard Law Review is quite an achievement...and Obama was named the first black president ever.
Members of the HLR often go on to distinguished careers. HLR alums include, among others:
"Supreme Court Justices Edward Sanford, Felix Frankfurter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Antonin Scalia, Stephen Breyer and Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., Presidential nominee Senator Barack Obama, Secretary of State Dean Acheson, Charles Hamilton Houston, Alger Hiss, Archibald MacLeish, Secretary of Transportation and Brown v. Board of Education attorney William Coleman, Jr., Judge Richard Posner, Chief Judge Henry Friendly, Chief Judge Michael Boudin, U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, former U.S. Solicitor General Paul Clement, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Chris Cox, print and broadcast journalist Jeffrey Toobin, former New York governor Eliot Spitzer, Harvard Law School Dean Elena Kagan, Yale Law School Dean Harold Koh, former Canadian ambassador Allan Gotlieb, former Assistant Attorney General Viet Dinh, former New York State Solicitor General Preeta D. Bansal, University of Texas President William C. Powers, and former Harvard University president Derek Bok."posted by ericb at 12:45 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
Oh, for fuck's sake. Where do people come up with these fantasies?
First off, my boyfriend -- my white, working-class boyfriend who's supposed to be the kind of guy who doesn't relate to snooty ol' Barack -- works as a handyman; he is the guy who gets called to fix the pipe for people who won't get their hands dirty. And nine times out of ten, it's rich white men or their trophy wives who call him.
Second off, governing is slightly more complex than fixing a leak. Anyone who explicitly doesn't want the more intelligent, thoughtful, complex thinker in charge can feel free to set sail for the Isle of Dumbshit to let monkeys continue to run things for them. But please, stop holding those of us who enjoy using reason and critical thinking hostage to the delusion that there's some political virtue to the lowest possible common denominator.
posted by scody at 12:45 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh, for fuck's sake. Where do people come up with these fantasies?
First off, my boyfriend -- my white, working-class boyfriend who's supposed to be the kind of guy who doesn't relate to snooty ol' Barack -- works as a handyman; he is the guy who gets called to fix the pipe for people who won't get their hands dirty. And nine times out of ten, it's rich white men or their trophy wives who call him.
Second off, governing is slightly more complex than fixing a leak. Anyone who explicitly doesn't want the more intelligent, thoughtful, complex thinker in charge can feel free to set sail for the Isle of Dumbshit to let monkeys continue to run things for them. But please, stop holding those of us who enjoy using reason and critical thinking hostage to the delusion that there's some political virtue to the lowest possible common denominator.
posted by scody at 12:45 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
He just seems like the sort of person who maybe started out like one of us, but then went on to something else...
Yeah -- onto greatness and an proven ability to inspire and lead -- whether at Harvard, in Chicago, the Illinois Senate and the U.S. Senate. Not to mention, being the CEO of one of the most effective, finely-tuned political campaigns in U.S. history.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on September 20, 2008
Yeah -- onto greatness and an proven ability to inspire and lead -- whether at Harvard, in Chicago, the Illinois Senate and the U.S. Senate. Not to mention, being the CEO of one of the most effective, finely-tuned political campaigns in U.S. history.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on September 20, 2008
Didn't Sean Hannity interview her this week?
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
I thought she refuted herself well enough. I wouldn't call it an interview either- more of a song and dance team.
posted by pointilist at 1:06 PM on September 20, 2008
Nope, this is incorrect, as was pointed out a few times already. Thanks all the same for, once again, chiming in without substance and avoiding simple questions put before you.
I thought she refuted herself well enough. I wouldn't call it an interview either- more of a song and dance team.
posted by pointilist at 1:06 PM on September 20, 2008
"Obama? How can you support an Illinois lawyer with only two years of experience in national office?
Oh, it worked out pretty well last time."
posted by ericb at 1:07 PM on September 20, 2008
Oh, it worked out pretty well last time."
posted by ericb at 1:07 PM on September 20, 2008
some newspaper or some such up
BB was channeling his konolia impression with this, but then that's the point. In trying to explain konolia's politics, he needs to invest her with the kind of ignorance where the Harvard Law Review is "some newspaper." In such a universe, being mayor of a small town is some kind of experience, landing a plane for refueling in Ireland is some kind of foreign travel, and having a campaign staff that is lousy with lobbyists is some kind of reform.
Ignorance is not the same thing as authenticity. And it is often feigned.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
BB was channeling his konolia impression with this, but then that's the point. In trying to explain konolia's politics, he needs to invest her with the kind of ignorance where the Harvard Law Review is "some newspaper." In such a universe, being mayor of a small town is some kind of experience, landing a plane for refueling in Ireland is some kind of foreign travel, and having a campaign staff that is lousy with lobbyists is some kind of reform.
Ignorance is not the same thing as authenticity. And it is often feigned.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
I thought she refuted herself well enough. I wouldn't call it an interview either- more of a song and dance team.
Ah. But I was responding to the Libya thing.
Still, yes, I wouldn't call an interview with Hannity "talking to the press" any more than I would consider picking up a friend's tab at Ruby Tuesday's "donating to charity".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Ah. But I was responding to the Libya thing.
Still, yes, I wouldn't call an interview with Hannity "talking to the press" any more than I would consider picking up a friend's tab at Ruby Tuesday's "donating to charity".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Obama today at Bethune-Cookman University, Daytona Beach, FL
“The Democratic presidential nominee used McCain's own words to attack him as an opponent of federal regulation of the banking industry, said his rival's support for partial privatization of Social Security could jeopardize retirement security for many Americans and fought back on the question of which candidate has closer ties to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.posted by ericb at 1:12 PM on September 20, 2008
Speaking at Bethune-Cookman University at an event highlighting his campaign's efforts to appeal to women voters, Obama invoked the current financial crisis by taking aim at an article carrying McCain's name in the current issue of Contingencies magazine, published by the American Academy of Actuaries.
In it, McCain wrote, ‘Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.’
‘So let me get this straight -- he wants to run health care like they've been running Wall Street,’ Obama told the audience. ‘Well, Senator, I know some folks on Main Street who aren't going to think that's such a good idea.’
McCain has attacked Obama this past week for ties to former executives of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, including in two television ads. But he said it's McCain whose campaign is replete with current or former lobbyists for the mortgage giants. He cited comments by the former head of Fannie Mae's government relations office, who was quoted in Politico as saying, ‘When I see photographs of Sen. McCain's staff, it looks to me like the team of lobbyists who used to report to me.’
‘Folks,’ Obama said, ‘you can't make this stuff up.’
On Social Security, Obama said, McCain's support for privatization would leave senior citizens at risk at a time when the stock market has plummeted. ‘I know Senator McCain is talking about a 'casino culture' on Wall Street -- but the fact is, he's the one who wants to gamble with your life savings and that is not going to happen when I'm president of the United States.’
He said that if McCain had his way, ‘the millions of Floridians who rely on it would've had their Social Security tied up in the stock market this week,’ although McCain has not called for full privatization of the system.”
OK, the news that makes my day . . . Navajo Nation, Mescalero, and the AIPC all endorse Obama together.
And I continue to note how Barack *always* includes Native Americans in his lists of all the constituencies who need to come together to take back the country, and how his campaign has really worked hard to reach and connect with Native leaders and voters.
By the way, a majority of Native Americans are rural, Christian, and working class.
Everybody's coming on board. Today, the Obama campaign announced that the All Indian Pueblo Council (AIPC), Mescalero Apache Tribe and Navajo Nation President Joe Shirley endorsed Barack Obama for President.
“The numerous issues facing Indian tribes require the attention of a President who genuinely respects sovereignty and self determination,” said Governor Michael J. Chavarria, Chair of the 8 Northern Pueblos. “The northern pueblos have moved to endorse the presidential candidacy of Senator Barack Obama. Our endorsement is given knowing that Indian issues will have prominence in an Obama Administration.”
“Native America needs leadership that will regard tribal sovereignty as important and Barack Obama is that leadership. His record shows his commitment to education, health, and advancing the wage earning power of families who struggle,” said Navajo Nation Vice President Ben Shelly. “We need Barack Obama in the White House, to work with Congress, and make improvements that will put us closer to self-sufficiency while strengthening our tribal sovereignty.”
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:27 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
And I continue to note how Barack *always* includes Native Americans in his lists of all the constituencies who need to come together to take back the country, and how his campaign has really worked hard to reach and connect with Native leaders and voters.
By the way, a majority of Native Americans are rural, Christian, and working class.
Everybody's coming on board. Today, the Obama campaign announced that the All Indian Pueblo Council (AIPC), Mescalero Apache Tribe and Navajo Nation President Joe Shirley endorsed Barack Obama for President.
“The numerous issues facing Indian tribes require the attention of a President who genuinely respects sovereignty and self determination,” said Governor Michael J. Chavarria, Chair of the 8 Northern Pueblos. “The northern pueblos have moved to endorse the presidential candidacy of Senator Barack Obama. Our endorsement is given knowing that Indian issues will have prominence in an Obama Administration.”
“Native America needs leadership that will regard tribal sovereignty as important and Barack Obama is that leadership. His record shows his commitment to education, health, and advancing the wage earning power of families who struggle,” said Navajo Nation Vice President Ben Shelly. “We need Barack Obama in the White House, to work with Congress, and make improvements that will put us closer to self-sufficiency while strengthening our tribal sovereignty.”
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:27 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
That's great, fourcheesemac!
And I love that Barack is pointing out McCain's own words this month, where McCain is wrong yet again.
posted by cashman at 1:36 PM on September 20, 2008
And I love that Barack is pointing out McCain's own words this month, where McCain is wrong yet again.
posted by cashman at 1:36 PM on September 20, 2008
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
The article itself answers that question. But the easy answer is that he voted "present" 130 times out of 4000 votes, and 800 bills in which he was a sponsor or co-sponsor.
As to questions of his "fortitude"...really? The guy has so far been wildly successful at undertaking the task of becoming the first Black President of the US, and quite possibly the most powerful Black man in the world since the days of Hannibal. The man stood in a stadium of 80,000 people, on an elevated platform, with spotlights on him, despite having daily death threats, and knowing that days earlier men were arrested in a car with sniper rifles, walkie-talkies and a plan to kill him.
Question his politics all you want, but i think he's proved his fortitude.
I guess what I'm trying to say is "Boy, that Sarah Palin sure was a shitty choice for VP."
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:43 PM on September 20, 2008 [11 favorites]
The article itself answers that question. But the easy answer is that he voted "present" 130 times out of 4000 votes, and 800 bills in which he was a sponsor or co-sponsor.
As to questions of his "fortitude"...really? The guy has so far been wildly successful at undertaking the task of becoming the first Black President of the US, and quite possibly the most powerful Black man in the world since the days of Hannibal. The man stood in a stadium of 80,000 people, on an elevated platform, with spotlights on him, despite having daily death threats, and knowing that days earlier men were arrested in a car with sniper rifles, walkie-talkies and a plan to kill him.
Question his politics all you want, but i think he's proved his fortitude.
I guess what I'm trying to say is "Boy, that Sarah Palin sure was a shitty choice for VP."
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:43 PM on September 20, 2008 [11 favorites]
"Boy, that Sarah Palin sure was a shitty choice for VP."
And this thread, long as it is, had documented her slide in the polls, her transformation from Great White Hope to Lipstick Smeared Goat, and the unraveling of the whole Palin charade. Tomorrow, this thread will be one week old. In that week, mark my words, McCain lost the election. And this thread is a very useful chronicle of that week.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 20, 2008
And this thread, long as it is, had documented her slide in the polls, her transformation from Great White Hope to Lipstick Smeared Goat, and the unraveling of the whole Palin charade. Tomorrow, this thread will be one week old. In that week, mark my words, McCain lost the election. And this thread is a very useful chronicle of that week.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 20, 2008
Because in my considered opinion, the real issue for you and your anecdotal friends is that Barack Obama is black.
I honestly don't know that this is an issue for konolia (though I have absolutely no doubt it is one of the issues for the much-vaunted anecdotal friends/aerobics instructors/etc.).
I believe that the real issue -- putting aside the litmus test of abortion -- is that he is manifestly more intelligent. The fact is, Obama speaks to his audience with the implicit assumption that regardless of where they may or may not have gone to school, they're as essentially smart as he is.
This very quality that so many people find invigorating and exciting about Obama is precisely what konolia and her friends find so untrustworthy. Some people enjoy being challenged; others find it upsetting. Some people see a complex thinker and are reassured; others see a complex thinker and are repelled.
Bush, Cheney, McCain, Palin et al. speak the language of absolutes -- of "not blinking, Charlie." They present simplistic worldviews that, while factually divorced from the actual realities of the world, are designed to engage, manipulate, and reassure simple thinkers. I know because I've got some in my own family: people who are unsettled by complexity to the point of anger. They want a black-and-white world, and they dislike and distrust implicitly anyone who says it's not.
If I had to lay money on it, I'd say that konolia doesn't like Obama on a gut level because she feels he talks down to her. The ironic thing is that the very candidates who DO talk down to her are the ones she votes for, every time, for the simple fact that they A) pass the abortion litmus test, and B) present themselves as smart "enough" to say things that sound like common sense to konolia, but not "too" smart to say things that would challenge her in any way.
This is why she never answers any of our direct questions, here or in any thread: because she can't. To do so would expose the fact (to herself, mind, not to us; we already get it) the narrow limits of her thought process, which she's essentially admitted in other threads is proscribed by what she is told by her pastor, etc. -- the personal authorities she falls back on as "greater minds" than hers when she finds herself surrounded by too many pesky facts or difficult questions. (This is why she fell all over herself to sidestep a real discussion of faith in this thread presented by folks like Miko and Pater Aletheias -- fellow believers who challenged her with a far more thoughtful, nuanced, intelligent, and in-depth approach to religion to her cartoonish "I'm the persecuted Christian" lament.) It's why some of the few times I've seen her get truly angry are when someone compares bigotry against gay couples to the bigotry against interracial couples a generation ago. Facing that fact is profoundly uncomfortable to her, and she must push it away as fast and as hard as she can.
Folks like konolia don't want to think too hard -- not about the world, and most certainly not about themselves. McCain allows them that pleasure, just as Bush did; indeed, for 40 years, the GOP has cynically relied on it as part of their strategy to shape politics into something that's about personal feelings rather than actual personal interests. There is literally no other way to explain rationally why the same woman who asked this question five years ago is going to vote for the guy who wants to deregulate health care like the banking industry.
posted by scody at 2:14 PM on September 20, 2008 [63 favorites]
I honestly don't know that this is an issue for konolia (though I have absolutely no doubt it is one of the issues for the much-vaunted anecdotal friends/aerobics instructors/etc.).
I believe that the real issue -- putting aside the litmus test of abortion -- is that he is manifestly more intelligent. The fact is, Obama speaks to his audience with the implicit assumption that regardless of where they may or may not have gone to school, they're as essentially smart as he is.
This very quality that so many people find invigorating and exciting about Obama is precisely what konolia and her friends find so untrustworthy. Some people enjoy being challenged; others find it upsetting. Some people see a complex thinker and are reassured; others see a complex thinker and are repelled.
Bush, Cheney, McCain, Palin et al. speak the language of absolutes -- of "not blinking, Charlie." They present simplistic worldviews that, while factually divorced from the actual realities of the world, are designed to engage, manipulate, and reassure simple thinkers. I know because I've got some in my own family: people who are unsettled by complexity to the point of anger. They want a black-and-white world, and they dislike and distrust implicitly anyone who says it's not.
If I had to lay money on it, I'd say that konolia doesn't like Obama on a gut level because she feels he talks down to her. The ironic thing is that the very candidates who DO talk down to her are the ones she votes for, every time, for the simple fact that they A) pass the abortion litmus test, and B) present themselves as smart "enough" to say things that sound like common sense to konolia, but not "too" smart to say things that would challenge her in any way.
This is why she never answers any of our direct questions, here or in any thread: because she can't. To do so would expose the fact (to herself, mind, not to us; we already get it) the narrow limits of her thought process, which she's essentially admitted in other threads is proscribed by what she is told by her pastor, etc. -- the personal authorities she falls back on as "greater minds" than hers when she finds herself surrounded by too many pesky facts or difficult questions. (This is why she fell all over herself to sidestep a real discussion of faith in this thread presented by folks like Miko and Pater Aletheias -- fellow believers who challenged her with a far more thoughtful, nuanced, intelligent, and in-depth approach to religion to her cartoonish "I'm the persecuted Christian" lament.) It's why some of the few times I've seen her get truly angry are when someone compares bigotry against gay couples to the bigotry against interracial couples a generation ago. Facing that fact is profoundly uncomfortable to her, and she must push it away as fast and as hard as she can.
Folks like konolia don't want to think too hard -- not about the world, and most certainly not about themselves. McCain allows them that pleasure, just as Bush did; indeed, for 40 years, the GOP has cynically relied on it as part of their strategy to shape politics into something that's about personal feelings rather than actual personal interests. There is literally no other way to explain rationally why the same woman who asked this question five years ago is going to vote for the guy who wants to deregulate health care like the banking industry.
posted by scody at 2:14 PM on September 20, 2008 [63 favorites]
Bush, Cheney, McCain, Palin et al. speak the language of absolutes -- of "not blinking, Charlie." They present simplistic worldviews that, while factually divorced from the actual realities of the world, are designed to engage, manipulate, and reassure simple thinkers. I know because I've got some in my own family: people who are unsettled by complexity to the point of anger. They want a black-and-white world, and they dislike and distrust implicitly anyone who says it's not.
I think the core of this has more to do with emotional response than critical thinking, really. Reason is the slave of passions, and all that. In my experience, otherwise intelligent people are fully susceptible to having their Fear, Outrage or Anger buttons pushed and voting in stark contrast with their own best interests. Some new research suggests that this might be the case:
I think the core of this has more to do with emotional response than critical thinking, really. Reason is the slave of passions, and all that. In my experience, otherwise intelligent people are fully susceptible to having their Fear, Outrage or Anger buttons pushed and voting in stark contrast with their own best interests. Some new research suggests that this might be the case:
When we're suddenly confronted with a shocking image, our skin becomes moist and we blink strongly. These actions are automatic and unintentional; they happen without conscious thought. So it may come as a surprise that they can also predict some of our most seemingly considered beliefs - our political attitudes.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
According to a new American study, the stronger these responses, the more likely people are to support the Iraq War, Biblical truth, the Patriot Act and greater defence budgets. Conversely, people who show weaker "startle reflexes" are more likely to support foreign aid, immigration, gay marriage and abortion rights.
Folks like our friend in NC seem primarily to vote against Democrats, because they feel like they "are being talked down to" or that they resent people that think they know better.
Republicans, I guess, speak their language, but once in office, they do things like deregulate industries which have the effect of siphoning the till to the über rich, but when we (the people) bail them out, we pay for it in terms of delayed taxation and reduced services.
At the macro level, these are not difficult cause and effect relationships, yet for whatever reason the red meat of abortion, gays, the military and so on obscures these facts during election season despite the fact that the republicans have barely lifted a finger to deliver on any of these things. I'm not saying the Democrats are the be-all end-all, and certainly there are those within party ranks that have been greedily swilling at this trough, but at as far back as I can remember (1973), they have governed measurably more responsibly than Republicans.
So, we end up with a thieving government that's pushed our country to the brink of disaster, so the idiots that vote for these scoundrels can feel better about themselves for three months every four years.
In fifty or a hundred years, they'll read about us in the history books and marvel at just how fucking stupid a self-proclaimed advanced society could have been.
posted by psmealey at 2:34 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Republicans, I guess, speak their language, but once in office, they do things like deregulate industries which have the effect of siphoning the till to the über rich, but when we (the people) bail them out, we pay for it in terms of delayed taxation and reduced services.
At the macro level, these are not difficult cause and effect relationships, yet for whatever reason the red meat of abortion, gays, the military and so on obscures these facts during election season despite the fact that the republicans have barely lifted a finger to deliver on any of these things. I'm not saying the Democrats are the be-all end-all, and certainly there are those within party ranks that have been greedily swilling at this trough, but at as far back as I can remember (1973), they have governed measurably more responsibly than Republicans.
So, we end up with a thieving government that's pushed our country to the brink of disaster, so the idiots that vote for these scoundrels can feel better about themselves for three months every four years.
In fifty or a hundred years, they'll read about us in the history books and marvel at just how fucking stupid a self-proclaimed advanced society could have been.
posted by psmealey at 2:34 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
McCain advisers said they had been concerned that a loose format could leave Ms. Palin, a relatively inexperienced debater, at a disadvantage and largely on the defensive.
Fools! They're not even counting the times she negotiated with the Russians via semaphore from her front porch!
posted by scody at 2:35 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Fools! They're not even counting the times she negotiated with the Russians via semaphore from her front porch!
posted by scody at 2:35 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
McCain advisers said they had been concerned that a loose format could leave Ms. Palin, a relatively inexperienced debater, at a disadvantage and largely on the defensive.
Shouldn't they have thought of that, you know, before they PUT HER ON THE FUCKING TICKET?!
posted by mothershock at 2:39 PM on September 20, 2008 [11 favorites]
Shouldn't they have thought of that, you know, before they PUT HER ON THE FUCKING TICKET?!
posted by mothershock at 2:39 PM on September 20, 2008 [11 favorites]
And also, I understand that now the Republican party is the sole arbiter of what is and what is not sexist, but can you imagine, even for a moment, either party making the same request of a debate involving a male candidate? And having that request taken seriously?
posted by mothershock at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mothershock at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
There's a laff riot Limbaugh editorial in the WSJ: Obama Is Stoking Racial Antagonism
Summary: Obama called me a racist! Sure, I said the words "stupid and unskilled Mexicans" on my show, but, here, let me show you the larger context: I was really saying that if people are going to be stupid, we might as well give their jobs to stupid and unskilled Mexicans. See? That's not racist at all!
posted by kaibutsu at 2:47 PM on September 20, 2008
Summary: Obama called me a racist! Sure, I said the words "stupid and unskilled Mexicans" on my show, but, here, let me show you the larger context: I was really saying that if people are going to be stupid, we might as well give their jobs to stupid and unskilled Mexicans. See? That's not racist at all!
posted by kaibutsu at 2:47 PM on September 20, 2008
McCain advisers said they had been concerned that a loose format could leave Ms. Palin, a relatively inexperienced debater, at a disadvantage and largely on the defensive.
Wow.
The debate prep must not be going well.
posted by Tenuki at 2:50 PM on September 20, 2008
Wow.
The debate prep must not be going well.
posted by Tenuki at 2:50 PM on September 20, 2008
The debate prep must not be going well.
Maybe they can't get her to stop interjecting "Charlie!" between every third word.
posted by scody at 3:24 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Maybe they can't get her to stop interjecting "Charlie!" between every third word.
posted by scody at 3:24 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
(and if that shows up as an SNL sketch anytime soon, I want credit from Tina Fey.)
posted by scody at 3:28 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by scody at 3:28 PM on September 20, 2008
At the insistence of the McCain campaign, the Oct. 2 debate between Gov. Sarah Palin and her Democratic rival, Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., will have shorter question-and-answer segments than those for the presidential nominees, the advisers said. There will also be much less opportunity for free-wheeling, direct exchanges between the running mates.The only thing more pathetic than the fact that the McCain campaign had to request this is the fact that the Commission on Presidential Debates accepted it.
McCain advisers said they had been concerned that a loose format could leave Ms. Palin, a relatively inexperienced debater, at a disadvantage and largely on the defensive.
Non-partisan, my ass.
posted by Rhaomi at 3:35 PM on September 20, 2008 [7 favorites]
Al Giordano at The Field lays a beatdown on the racial voting story.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:42 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 3:42 PM on September 20, 2008
The Iraq War did not Force Gadaffi's Hand. Libya: A Victory For Diplomacy.
Would you care to explain why you haven't read the December 2007 article you linked to? The entire article explains this.
Sarah Palin went to two colleges in Hawaii.
That's old news.
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
Would you care to explain why you haven't read the December 2007 article you linked to? The entire article explains this.
If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you’re 'exotic, different.'
Sarah Palin went to two colleges in Hawaii.
So -- if any of this is true -- the surprise here was not Palin; it was McCain's susceptibility to the Jesus Mafia's offer he couldn't refuse.
That's old news.
For weeks, advisers close to the campaign said, Mr. McCain had wanted to name as his running mate his good friend Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, the Democrat turned independent. But by the end of last weekend, the outrage from Christian conservatives over the possibility that Mr. McCain would fill out the Republican ticket with Mr. Lieberman, a supporter of abortion rights, had become too intense to be ignored.posted by kirkaracha at 3:48 PM on September 20, 2008
Because the other conservatives-who email me privately-don't want to post and get treated the way I do.
"The lurkers support me in email!"
posted by the duck by the oboe at 4:03 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
"The lurkers support me in email!"
posted by the duck by the oboe at 4:03 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
My dad dated a Charlie! model for a while in college. that is all I have to add to this conversation. That and Choice! Gin!
posted by mrzarquon at 4:15 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by mrzarquon at 4:15 PM on September 20, 2008
Could someone please find and post an email address and/or postal address for the Commission on Presidential Debates? I've got something I'd like to say to them. I can't find any contact info on their site.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:29 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by iamkimiam at 4:29 PM on September 20, 2008
I don't think Obama has the inner fortitude to back up his words with tough action when necessary.
there's this peculiar document that claims that it's congress' responsibility to declare war on other countries - it's called the constitution, you may have heard of it
unfortunately it seems that the past 5 or 6 presidents and congresses have preferred allowing the president to act like the meanest drunk in the bar rather than follow the actual rules of the government
as a conservative, i'm sure you're appreciative of that - aren't you?
(would that both parties understand this a lot better than they seem to do now)
posted by pyramid termite at 4:31 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
there's this peculiar document that claims that it's congress' responsibility to declare war on other countries - it's called the constitution, you may have heard of it
unfortunately it seems that the past 5 or 6 presidents and congresses have preferred allowing the president to act like the meanest drunk in the bar rather than follow the actual rules of the government
as a conservative, i'm sure you're appreciative of that - aren't you?
(would that both parties understand this a lot better than they seem to do now)
posted by pyramid termite at 4:31 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
This might come in handy for her in her preparation for the upcoming vice-presidential debate.
Sarah Palin's Guide To Public Speaking
1. Don't blink!
2. Make it personal!
Always use the questioner's name when responding to a question.
3. Stall!
If you're not sure what the answer is, say, "In what respect, Charlie?"
4. Stall some more!
If you're still not sure what the answer is, repeat the last part of the question as the beginning of your answer. It'll buy you some time to think of what else to say.
5. Use important-sounding words!
Saying things like "fungible" makes you sound like you know what you're talking about!
6. Don't be afraid to go colloquial!
Nothing loosens up a crowd like a few well-placed "guys and gals" or "you moms out there"!
7. Ramble!
When you're not sure of what to say, this is often your best strategy: Just keep talking until someone cuts you off! It doesn't matter what words you say, just keep saying stuff! The news media will report on it like it actually meant something!
8. Play offense!
Got a tough question? Turn it on the questioner: say something like, "I challenge you to ask me a tough question!" This will seem confusing to the questioner, because he probably just *did* ask you a tough question, but now you're all, oooh, you don't scare me, bring it on, sucker! and that makes him wonder if you might be an idiot. But who's the idiot now, idiot?
9. Talking points, talking points, talking points!
It doesn't matter if they're relevant to the question, it doesn't matter if you use them properly, it doesn't even matter if they're TRUE! Just say them!
10. LIE.
posted by mothershock at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2008 [8 favorites]
Sarah Palin's Guide To Public Speaking
1. Don't blink!
2. Make it personal!
Always use the questioner's name when responding to a question.
3. Stall!
If you're not sure what the answer is, say, "In what respect, Charlie?"
4. Stall some more!
If you're still not sure what the answer is, repeat the last part of the question as the beginning of your answer. It'll buy you some time to think of what else to say.
5. Use important-sounding words!
Saying things like "fungible" makes you sound like you know what you're talking about!
6. Don't be afraid to go colloquial!
Nothing loosens up a crowd like a few well-placed "guys and gals" or "you moms out there"!
7. Ramble!
When you're not sure of what to say, this is often your best strategy: Just keep talking until someone cuts you off! It doesn't matter what words you say, just keep saying stuff! The news media will report on it like it actually meant something!
8. Play offense!
Got a tough question? Turn it on the questioner: say something like, "I challenge you to ask me a tough question!" This will seem confusing to the questioner, because he probably just *did* ask you a tough question, but now you're all, oooh, you don't scare me, bring it on, sucker! and that makes him wonder if you might be an idiot. But who's the idiot now, idiot?
9. Talking points, talking points, talking points!
It doesn't matter if they're relevant to the question, it doesn't matter if you use them properly, it doesn't even matter if they're TRUE! Just say them!
10. LIE.
posted by mothershock at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2008 [8 favorites]
Could someone please find and post an email address and/or postal address for the Commission on Presidential Debates?
From here:
Commission on Presidential Debates
Janet Brown (executive director), 202-872-1020
Scott Warner, 703-231-6925
scott@warnerstrategies.com
Frank Fahrenkopf is the co-chair.
And the address:
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Ave NW #445
Washington, DC 20036
posted by cashman at 5:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
From here:
Commission on Presidential Debates
Janet Brown (executive director), 202-872-1020
Scott Warner, 703-231-6925
scott@warnerstrategies.com
Frank Fahrenkopf is the co-chair.
And the address:
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Ave NW #445
Washington, DC 20036
posted by cashman at 5:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
"The lurkers support me in email!"
Sure, whatever, and a lot of people have supported konolia's posting in-thread too, just not the ideas she argues.
konolia posts argument, or personal anecdote.
thread posts 20-30 comments refuting said argument, with links to evidence.
konolia posts different argument. or makes snarky comment about what someone said.
NOT ONCE. Not once in this thread has she came back to her original opinion, and commented on the added information people have given her. This leads me to belive that she is a troll.
posted by graventy at 6:00 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Sure, whatever, and a lot of people have supported konolia's posting in-thread too, just not the ideas she argues.
konolia posts argument, or personal anecdote.
thread posts 20-30 comments refuting said argument, with links to evidence.
konolia posts different argument. or makes snarky comment about what someone said.
NOT ONCE. Not once in this thread has she came back to her original opinion, and commented on the added information people have given her. This leads me to belive that she is a troll.
posted by graventy at 6:00 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
From the front page: A Veteran's Case Against John McCain.
I'm sure those members of this thread who care so deeply about fortitude when it comes to matters of the armed services will be most interested in the part where McCain had the fortitude to oppose the most recent G.I. Bill (George Bush opposed it, too!), then had the extra fortitude to turn around and take credit for the same bill after it had passed resoundingly.
Hear that, enemies of freedom? McCain will not be played like a Stradivarius! Nor any rare, sought-after 17th-century stringed instrument that has become a synonym for excellence! He, like Bush, has the fortitude to stand upto for our troops!
posted by scody at 6:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm sure those members of this thread who care so deeply about fortitude when it comes to matters of the armed services will be most interested in the part where McCain had the fortitude to oppose the most recent G.I. Bill (George Bush opposed it, too!), then had the extra fortitude to turn around and take credit for the same bill after it had passed resoundingly.
Hear that, enemies of freedom? McCain will not be played like a Stradivarius! Nor any rare, sought-after 17th-century stringed instrument that has become a synonym for excellence! He, like Bush, has the fortitude to stand up
posted by scody at 6:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
NOT ONCE. Not once in this thread has she came back to her original opinion, and commented on the added information people have given her. This leads me to belive that she is a troll.
posted by graventy at 9:00 PM on September 20 [+] [!]
Oh good grief.
If you think I'm a troll don't feed me. Fair enough?
I disagree. People have repeatedly taken g a personal tone with Konolia and called her names, due in part to their utter frustration with their ability to make her "see the light" so to speak.
What I gathered from this and the other thread is that konolia is essentially voting for the lesser of two evils in her eyes. She's not really happy with McCain, but Obama scares the hell outta her. I'm guessing it's because he looks and sounds like a slick politician. He looks a bit too comfortable in his suit, like the sorta of man who, when the pipe under the sink breaks, calls someone else as opposed to getting down on his knees, suit or no suit, and at least trying to fix it himself. It's nice that he's spent the last however months running a campaign about himself and managed to convince a lot of people to vote for him, but what has he really done that's worthwhile, you know?
It's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there, that's fine, we're (and here I'm attempting to explain what conservatives like konolia are thinking, not that I agree with them) not saying he's a bad person, not at all. He just seems like the sort of person who maybe started out like one of us, but then went on to something else and forgot where he came from. Say what you will about McCain, he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
Seriously, what kinda man (again, I'm channeling where I think konolia is coming from), when asked when a baby really becomes a person, answers "that's above my pay grade?!" The kinda man who's spent too much time in the books and not enough time actually dealing with the world. He can't even honestly say what he thinks?! Hell no, that's a person you can trust, especially when the chips are down and the chips look they're going to be coming down all across America.
konolia, is this about right?
Quoted for truth. +10.
posted by konolia at 6:24 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by graventy at 9:00 PM on September 20 [+] [!]
Oh good grief.
If you think I'm a troll don't feed me. Fair enough?
I disagree. People have repeatedly taken g a personal tone with Konolia and called her names, due in part to their utter frustration with their ability to make her "see the light" so to speak.
What I gathered from this and the other thread is that konolia is essentially voting for the lesser of two evils in her eyes. She's not really happy with McCain, but Obama scares the hell outta her. I'm guessing it's because he looks and sounds like a slick politician. He looks a bit too comfortable in his suit, like the sorta of man who, when the pipe under the sink breaks, calls someone else as opposed to getting down on his knees, suit or no suit, and at least trying to fix it himself. It's nice that he's spent the last however months running a campaign about himself and managed to convince a lot of people to vote for him, but what has he really done that's worthwhile, you know?
It's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there, that's fine, we're (and here I'm attempting to explain what conservatives like konolia are thinking, not that I agree with them) not saying he's a bad person, not at all. He just seems like the sort of person who maybe started out like one of us, but then went on to something else and forgot where he came from. Say what you will about McCain, he least looks and sounds like someone who would get his hands dirty, fixing the pipe under the sink.
Seriously, what kinda man (again, I'm channeling where I think konolia is coming from), when asked when a baby really becomes a person, answers "that's above my pay grade?!" The kinda man who's spent too much time in the books and not enough time actually dealing with the world. He can't even honestly say what he thinks?! Hell no, that's a person you can trust, especially when the chips are down and the chips look they're going to be coming down all across America.
konolia, is this about right?
Quoted for truth. +10.
posted by konolia at 6:24 PM on September 20, 2008
So did the McCain campaign ever explain their incompetence around the picture of the middle school at his RNC speech?
posted by cashman at 6:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 6:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Being ignorant is unpatriotic.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Kay Hagan up 5 in North Carolina; Barack Obama tied with McCain at 46 in North Carolina. Tonight. via PPP polling.
You don't even speak for your own state.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:48 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
You don't even speak for your own state.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:48 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
This seems hypocritical. In the very same comment, you seem to be criticizing Obama for voting present, while claiming that you would have used a similar voting tactic had Giuliai been nominated
I am not a state Senator elected to vote on laws. Apples and oranges.
posted by konolia at 6:48 PM on September 20, 2008
I am not a state Senator elected to vote on laws. Apples and oranges.
posted by konolia at 6:48 PM on September 20, 2008
Quoted for truth. +10.
Ok, konolia, if you agree with BB's characterization (of a conservative's characterization) of Obama, then you must concede that your choice is based on gut-level feeling, and not by objective facts. If this is the case, then I would disagree with you, but I can understand. However, if you say baseless things like "Obama would be weak against Iran" (I'm paraphrasing) and have no real facts to back that up...well, I don't understand that reasoning. If the latter is the case, it seems to me to be true intellectual dishonesty.
In other words, if you are just voting from your gut, fine, but say so. There will be a lot less confused people on this thread.
posted by zardoz at 7:06 PM on September 20, 2008
Ok, konolia, if you agree with BB's characterization (of a conservative's characterization) of Obama, then you must concede that your choice is based on gut-level feeling, and not by objective facts. If this is the case, then I would disagree with you, but I can understand. However, if you say baseless things like "Obama would be weak against Iran" (I'm paraphrasing) and have no real facts to back that up...well, I don't understand that reasoning. If the latter is the case, it seems to me to be true intellectual dishonesty.
In other words, if you are just voting from your gut, fine, but say so. There will be a lot less confused people on this thread.
posted by zardoz at 7:06 PM on September 20, 2008
2006? really? flagged as noise. This is trolling. I was on your side for a while, even though we don't agree on pretty much everything. But now you're just trolling, and bringing the site down. This is not what Metafilter is supposed to be like.
posted by cashman at 7:09 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by cashman at 7:09 PM on September 20, 2008
Ah, Rezko.
She's got two arrows left -- Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers. Like McCain, she's almost out of ammo. And like McCain, she's become known as a bearer of false witness, meaning no one bothers trying to take what she says seriously because it's probably not true.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:15 PM on September 20, 2008
She's got two arrows left -- Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers. Like McCain, she's almost out of ammo. And like McCain, she's become known as a bearer of false witness, meaning no one bothers trying to take what she says seriously because it's probably not true.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:15 PM on September 20, 2008
Keating 5. Your move.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:17 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:17 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
konolia, is this about right?
Quoted for truth. +10.
Ok, see, the point you missed there is that you are not basing your dislike on anything substantial, konolia. You are literally making your choice for the next President of the United States on gut reaction, unfounded rumor, e-mail forwards, and emotion. That's it. Does this not strike you as even the slightest bit unpatriotic? Don't you think the next President should be picked because of his demonstrated qualifications, intelligence, judgment, and vision for this country? I mean, if it's not we might as well just hand the keys to the ballot box to Simon Cowell, because if we're voting on emotion alone then it's really no different from American Idol, and we should just go ahead and book Seacrest to moderate the debates.
There are plenty of Obama supporters in this thread who have given link after link that evidences Obama's readiness to be president. People like Miko, fourcheesemac, ericb, and so many others have given us countless articles from all over the political spectrum that provide documented, hard facts that are informing their vote for Obama. Time and time and time again, you have been asked for the same courtesy, to back up your dislike for Obama with anything beyond allegations and speculation. We have literally begged you to come up something of substance -- anonymous e-mail forwards and tired, debunked rumors don't count, for the record -- but you either can't or won't. If it's the former, then please: do some research, come up with indisputable evidence that backs up your assertions. We may still disagree, but at least we will be disagreeing in an honorable fashion. If it's the latter, then I can't for the life of me figure out why you even bother to post. That's not me trying to silence your voice; it just seems like a massive exercise in futility, and a pretty significant waste of everyone's time, including (and especially) yours.
As has also been said a dozen times over: it would be fantastic if some of the other right-wingers could find the guts to speak up in this thread and back up their statements with verifiable fact. Frankly, I'd kill to have the conservative equivalent of a Miko around these parts.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [6 favorites]
Quoted for truth. +10.
Ok, see, the point you missed there is that you are not basing your dislike on anything substantial, konolia. You are literally making your choice for the next President of the United States on gut reaction, unfounded rumor, e-mail forwards, and emotion. That's it. Does this not strike you as even the slightest bit unpatriotic? Don't you think the next President should be picked because of his demonstrated qualifications, intelligence, judgment, and vision for this country? I mean, if it's not we might as well just hand the keys to the ballot box to Simon Cowell, because if we're voting on emotion alone then it's really no different from American Idol, and we should just go ahead and book Seacrest to moderate the debates.
There are plenty of Obama supporters in this thread who have given link after link that evidences Obama's readiness to be president. People like Miko, fourcheesemac, ericb, and so many others have given us countless articles from all over the political spectrum that provide documented, hard facts that are informing their vote for Obama. Time and time and time again, you have been asked for the same courtesy, to back up your dislike for Obama with anything beyond allegations and speculation. We have literally begged you to come up something of substance -- anonymous e-mail forwards and tired, debunked rumors don't count, for the record -- but you either can't or won't. If it's the former, then please: do some research, come up with indisputable evidence that backs up your assertions. We may still disagree, but at least we will be disagreeing in an honorable fashion. If it's the latter, then I can't for the life of me figure out why you even bother to post. That's not me trying to silence your voice; it just seems like a massive exercise in futility, and a pretty significant waste of everyone's time, including (and especially) yours.
As has also been said a dozen times over: it would be fantastic if some of the other right-wingers could find the guts to speak up in this thread and back up their statements with verifiable fact. Frankly, I'd kill to have the conservative equivalent of a Miko around these parts.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [6 favorites]
So what's this about Obama and Rezko?
That article is two years old. Since then, investigators have found nothing illegal about Obama's dealings with Rezko. If they had, that's all we'd be hearing about in the media every single day.
Really, konolia, you're not dumb, and you know the folks here just look at that link as a sad, sad, desperate attempt to deflect the questions that have been pointedly addressed to you.
posted by zardoz at 7:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
That article is two years old. Since then, investigators have found nothing illegal about Obama's dealings with Rezko. If they had, that's all we'd be hearing about in the media every single day.
Really, konolia, you're not dumb, and you know the folks here just look at that link as a sad, sad, desperate attempt to deflect the questions that have been pointedly addressed to you.
posted by zardoz at 7:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Time and time and time again, you have been asked for the same courtesy, to back up your dislike for Obama with anything beyond allegations and speculation.
And the corollary to this, obviously, is that I'd be just as eager to see solid facts about McCain that form the foundation of your decision to vote for him.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:33 PM on September 20, 2008
And the corollary to this, obviously, is that I'd be just as eager to see solid facts about McCain that form the foundation of your decision to vote for him.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:33 PM on September 20, 2008
Konolia is so uninformed that she can read Brandon's simulation of her own self and agree that's it accurate… not recognizing for a moment that
Honestly, folk, you gotta get out the vote. If you let the retards out-number you, you're going to pay even worse than you already have. You really don't want that future. It's a bad one.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:38 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
it's nice that he went to Harvard and edited some newspaper or some such up there, that's fine, we're not saying he's a bad person, not at all.illustrates her as a vapid twit.
It's nice that he's spent the last however months running a campaign about himself and managed to convince a lot of people to vote for him, but what has he really done that's worthwhile, you know?And she agreed — this shows a good understanding of what she thinks.
Honestly, folk, you gotta get out the vote. If you let the retards out-number you, you're going to pay even worse than you already have. You really don't want that future. It's a bad one.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:38 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I mean, if it's not we might as well just hand the keys to the ballot box to Simon Cowell
Hell, for that matter, if it comes down to Simon "not only do I not suffer fools gladly, I insult them on television in ways they can't quite understand" Cowell versus people who forward OMG OBAMA IS A MUSLIM COMMIE WHO KILLS BABIES (ALSO? ARUGULA!!!!!!!) emails, I believe I'll go with chest-waxing Brit.
posted by scody at 7:40 PM on September 20, 2008
Hell, for that matter, if it comes down to Simon "not only do I not suffer fools gladly, I insult them on television in ways they can't quite understand" Cowell versus people who forward OMG OBAMA IS A MUSLIM COMMIE WHO KILLS BABIES (ALSO? ARUGULA!!!!!!!) emails, I believe I'll go with chest-waxing Brit.
posted by scody at 7:40 PM on September 20, 2008
Frankly, I'd kill to have the conservative equivalent of a Miko around these parts.
Damn right. (Though "equivalent" is a lot to ask for, there being only one possible Miko, whose fans are legion -- count me among them.) It would be a lot more interesting to debate on a more serious level. There *are* reasonable arguments for McCain (that Palin comparison to the ones for Barack Obama). But they haven't even been tried in this thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:45 PM on September 20, 2008
Damn right. (Though "equivalent" is a lot to ask for, there being only one possible Miko, whose fans are legion -- count me among them.) It would be a lot more interesting to debate on a more serious level. There *are* reasonable arguments for McCain (that Palin comparison to the ones for Barack Obama). But they haven't even been tried in this thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:45 PM on September 20, 2008
I know this is old news to almost everybody reading here, but I just find it hysterical that anybody thinks the Rezko thing amounts to anything like an argument.
It's amazing looking at the comment threads in various blogs and newspapers where McCain supporters STILL keep bringing it up as if this is some terrible damning conspiracy that OMG, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT! I can only assume the right-wing email networks are still pushing this thing like it's the goddamn DaVinci Code or something.
For what it's worth, the Chicago Tribune ran this on March 16:
U.S. Sen. Barack Obama waited 16 months to attempt the exorcism. But when he finally sat down with the Tribune editorial board Friday, Obama offered a lengthy and, to us, plausible explanation for the presence of now-indicted businessman Tony Rezko in his personal and political lives.
The most remarkable facet of Obama's 92-minute discussion was that, at the outset, he pledged to answer every question the three dozen Tribune journalists crammed into the room would put to him. And he did.
[...]
When we endorsed Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination Jan. 27, we said we had formed our opinions of him during 12 years of scrutiny. We concluded that the professional judgment and personal decency with which he has managed himself and his ambition distinguish him.
Nothing Obama said in our editorial board room Friday diminishes that verdict.
CAN WE MOVE ON NOW PLEASE?
posted by neroli at 7:46 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
It's amazing looking at the comment threads in various blogs and newspapers where McCain supporters STILL keep bringing it up as if this is some terrible damning conspiracy that OMG, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT! I can only assume the right-wing email networks are still pushing this thing like it's the goddamn DaVinci Code or something.
For what it's worth, the Chicago Tribune ran this on March 16:
U.S. Sen. Barack Obama waited 16 months to attempt the exorcism. But when he finally sat down with the Tribune editorial board Friday, Obama offered a lengthy and, to us, plausible explanation for the presence of now-indicted businessman Tony Rezko in his personal and political lives.
The most remarkable facet of Obama's 92-minute discussion was that, at the outset, he pledged to answer every question the three dozen Tribune journalists crammed into the room would put to him. And he did.
[...]
When we endorsed Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination Jan. 27, we said we had formed our opinions of him during 12 years of scrutiny. We concluded that the professional judgment and personal decency with which he has managed himself and his ambition distinguish him.
Nothing Obama said in our editorial board room Friday diminishes that verdict.
CAN WE MOVE ON NOW PLEASE?
posted by neroli at 7:46 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
So what's this about Obama and Rezko?
oooh, someone wrote a letter in 2006 - now there's a real hot lead
you have nothing and every time you post something like this, it becomes more apparent
you're not up to this level of debate and you may as well give up
posted by pyramid termite at 7:51 PM on September 20, 2008
oooh, someone wrote a letter in 2006 - now there's a real hot lead
you have nothing and every time you post something like this, it becomes more apparent
you're not up to this level of debate and you may as well give up
posted by pyramid termite at 7:51 PM on September 20, 2008
illustrates her as a vapid twit.
This.
It's why we lost in 2000 and 2004 and may still lose in 2008. Even now, having her view point better explained, people still insist on pilling on the insults, facts and various lines of reasoning as proof that their way is the right way, the only way dammit.
Frankly, if ya'll were as smart as you think you are this would have been figured out ages ago (no, i'm not claiming to be a genius here, far from). But from a tactical point of view, if you don't understand your enemy, then how can you expect to defeat him?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 PM on September 20, 2008
This.
It's why we lost in 2000 and 2004 and may still lose in 2008. Even now, having her view point better explained, people still insist on pilling on the insults, facts and various lines of reasoning as proof that their way is the right way, the only way dammit.
Frankly, if ya'll were as smart as you think you are this would have been figured out ages ago (no, i'm not claiming to be a genius here, far from). But from a tactical point of view, if you don't understand your enemy, then how can you expect to defeat him?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 PM on September 20, 2008
The thing about Rezko to me is this...is this the kind of individual Obama hangs around with?
In politics, you are known by the company you keep. I want to know what company Obama keeps.
You guys are really good at putting my candidate under a lice comb and picking every last nit. Well, your fella has some things that make me suspicious. I don't know enough YET but I know enough to know I want to know MORE.
Obama has run a pretty campaign. He is photogenic. He is expert at presenting a beautiful facade. But then, so was John Edwards. Forgive me if I am trying to grab the curtain to look behind it. Because I am convinced that behind the curtain there is something there to see.
With McCain, his flaws are right there in front of God and everybody.
posted by konolia at 8:12 PM on September 20, 2008
In politics, you are known by the company you keep. I want to know what company Obama keeps.
You guys are really good at putting my candidate under a lice comb and picking every last nit. Well, your fella has some things that make me suspicious. I don't know enough YET but I know enough to know I want to know MORE.
Obama has run a pretty campaign. He is photogenic. He is expert at presenting a beautiful facade. But then, so was John Edwards. Forgive me if I am trying to grab the curtain to look behind it. Because I am convinced that behind the curtain there is something there to see.
With McCain, his flaws are right there in front of God and everybody.
posted by konolia at 8:12 PM on September 20, 2008
Pastor Hagee.
What kind of man hangs around with a rat fucker like Hagee?
Your move.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
What kind of man hangs around with a rat fucker like Hagee?
Your move.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Wait, I'll double down:
Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”
– Sen. John McCain, speaking to a Republican dinner, June 1998.
What kind of man says something like this about a teenaged girl?
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [12 favorites]
Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”
– Sen. John McCain, speaking to a Republican dinner, June 1998.
What kind of man says something like this about a teenaged girl?
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [12 favorites]
In politics, you are known by the company you keep.
You mean like Sarah Palin keeping company with a secessionist party and a witchhunting pastor and her husband who's breaking Alaska law by refusing to comply with a subpeona? That company? Surely you don't mean that company!
posted by scody at 8:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
You mean like Sarah Palin keeping company with a secessionist party and a witchhunting pastor and her husband who's breaking Alaska law by refusing to comply with a subpeona? That company? Surely you don't mean that company!
posted by scody at 8:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
Or how about McCain's very good buddy, convicted felon and racist wacko G. Gordon Liddy?
Here's some choice Liddy:
In 1994, Liddy gave this advice to listeners after the tragedy in Waco, Texas: "Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests ... Kill the sons of bitches." Liddy, like Ayers, was openly promoting armed resistance against the U.S. government. Still, McCain calls Liddy an "old friend."
More about it here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
Here's some choice Liddy:
In 1994, Liddy gave this advice to listeners after the tragedy in Waco, Texas: "Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests ... Kill the sons of bitches." Liddy, like Ayers, was openly promoting armed resistance against the U.S. government. Still, McCain calls Liddy an "old friend."
More about it here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:25 PM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]
The thing about Rezko to me is this...is this the kind of individual Obama hangs around with?
with probable cause that a crime has been committed (or an ethical breach has occured), persuade a judge or a congressional committee to subpoena people and investigate
if you have that probable cause
of course out of the 4 presidential and vice presidential candidates, there's only one person whose associates are being subpoenaed right now, right? and i assume that todd palin is going to obey the law of the land and submit to testifying, right? becaise that's what an honest american who respects the law does, right?
call me back when obama's associates start getting subpoenas
or when you have something, anything that hasn't been debunked to death already
i wouldn't hesitate to throw over obama for a 3rd party candidate if he had something really damning come up against him - but you're not giving me that, you're just giving me moldy leftovers
posted by pyramid termite at 8:32 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
with probable cause that a crime has been committed (or an ethical breach has occured), persuade a judge or a congressional committee to subpoena people and investigate
if you have that probable cause
of course out of the 4 presidential and vice presidential candidates, there's only one person whose associates are being subpoenaed right now, right? and i assume that todd palin is going to obey the law of the land and submit to testifying, right? becaise that's what an honest american who respects the law does, right?
call me back when obama's associates start getting subpoenas
or when you have something, anything that hasn't been debunked to death already
i wouldn't hesitate to throw over obama for a 3rd party candidate if he had something really damning come up against him - but you're not giving me that, you're just giving me moldy leftovers
posted by pyramid termite at 8:32 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
konolia, I know that the last few responses to your most recent question may seem a little "NO, YOU"-ish, but I submit that characterizing them that way may be missing the point.
The point of bringing up all the nasty scum that McCain and Palin are associated with is not meant to say that they're just as bad as Obama. It's to say that what all of them are doing is not bad at all.
Politics, especially high-level politics, is all about networking. The average person knows a couple of hundred people. The average politician has to know thousands. And, with politics being a dirty business, there's a high probability of many of those people being corrupt.
But notice -- "those people". They're the corrupt ones, not the central figure.
Rising anywhere in politics requires working with all manner of scumbag and douchenozzle and bigot and dumbass. Sometimes all four at once. A delightful grab-bag of asshattery. But no matter how much you work with someone, no matter how many times you talk to them, that doesn't mean you automatically subscribe to their views or endorse their lifestyle.
The only way guilt-by-association works is when the association goes beyond something more substantial than a first-name relationship. If Obama had been involved in criminal activity with Rezko, that'd be one hell of an association.
But he's not.
If Obama had attended every one of Rev. Wright's inflammatory sermons with a smile on his face, that would be pretty damn good proof that he approves of those views.
But he doesn't.
If six-year-old Obama had funneled his weekly allowance to the Weather Underground with a note explicitly asking them to use it to help bring down the federal government, that would be front page news.
But he didn't.
So please, don't act like just *knowing* someone corrupt means that know-er himself is corrupt.
And perhaps consider the idea that if the worst the Republicans can say about Obama is this sort of sidelong, wink-wink, nudge-nudge implication of corruption, without any hard evidence to back it up, even after more than a year of hard-fought campaigning against the opposition researchers of both the GOP and the Clinton juggernaut (not to mention whatever shadowy Bush administration wiretapping could ferret out), then maybe that says far more good about Obama than it does bad.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:51 PM on September 20, 2008 [9 favorites]
The point of bringing up all the nasty scum that McCain and Palin are associated with is not meant to say that they're just as bad as Obama. It's to say that what all of them are doing is not bad at all.
Politics, especially high-level politics, is all about networking. The average person knows a couple of hundred people. The average politician has to know thousands. And, with politics being a dirty business, there's a high probability of many of those people being corrupt.
But notice -- "those people". They're the corrupt ones, not the central figure.
Rising anywhere in politics requires working with all manner of scumbag and douchenozzle and bigot and dumbass. Sometimes all four at once. A delightful grab-bag of asshattery. But no matter how much you work with someone, no matter how many times you talk to them, that doesn't mean you automatically subscribe to their views or endorse their lifestyle.
The only way guilt-by-association works is when the association goes beyond something more substantial than a first-name relationship. If Obama had been involved in criminal activity with Rezko, that'd be one hell of an association.
But he's not.
If Obama had attended every one of Rev. Wright's inflammatory sermons with a smile on his face, that would be pretty damn good proof that he approves of those views.
But he doesn't.
If six-year-old Obama had funneled his weekly allowance to the Weather Underground with a note explicitly asking them to use it to help bring down the federal government, that would be front page news.
But he didn't.
So please, don't act like just *knowing* someone corrupt means that know-er himself is corrupt.
And perhaps consider the idea that if the worst the Republicans can say about Obama is this sort of sidelong, wink-wink, nudge-nudge implication of corruption, without any hard evidence to back it up, even after more than a year of hard-fought campaigning against the opposition researchers of both the GOP and the Clinton juggernaut (not to mention whatever shadowy Bush administration wiretapping could ferret out), then maybe that says far more good about Obama than it does bad.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:51 PM on September 20, 2008 [9 favorites]
Well, your fella has some things that make me suspicious. I don't know enough YET but I know enough to know I want to know MORE.
What are you waiting for? You have an internet connection and a curious mind (to an extent). Obama's been at the forefront of the race for almost a year now, the nominee for several months. Only 45-odd days left.
Please come back to us with substantive stories about Obama's supposed nefarious dealings and relationships. And regarding the "things" you're suspicious about, drawing suspicion from his relationships with both Rezko and Ayers is not good enough. It seems Rezko was/is a bad guy and Ayers was a bad guy, and Obama knew them both. Knowing them is not enough to draw suspicion. I could turn the tables and list a litany of names of pretty sketchy folks that McCain knows and has had dealings with, but you'd ignore that anyway.
Again, you're the one who is so curious about Obama's dark, dark past. Please, enlighten me about what it is that Obama's done.
Or...
Or is it possible that you would rather keep your suspicion and not learn more, because you know it would be a very difficult thing to actually change your mind on who you want to vote for? Anyway, get crackin', konolia, there are dozens and dozens of links aimed specifically at you on this thread and the previous. We're all ears to what you conclude about your "suspicions".
posted by zardoz at 8:55 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
What are you waiting for? You have an internet connection and a curious mind (to an extent). Obama's been at the forefront of the race for almost a year now, the nominee for several months. Only 45-odd days left.
Please come back to us with substantive stories about Obama's supposed nefarious dealings and relationships. And regarding the "things" you're suspicious about, drawing suspicion from his relationships with both Rezko and Ayers is not good enough. It seems Rezko was/is a bad guy and Ayers was a bad guy, and Obama knew them both. Knowing them is not enough to draw suspicion. I could turn the tables and list a litany of names of pretty sketchy folks that McCain knows and has had dealings with, but you'd ignore that anyway.
Again, you're the one who is so curious about Obama's dark, dark past. Please, enlighten me about what it is that Obama's done.
Or...
Or is it possible that you would rather keep your suspicion and not learn more, because you know it would be a very difficult thing to actually change your mind on who you want to vote for? Anyway, get crackin', konolia, there are dozens and dozens of links aimed specifically at you on this thread and the previous. We're all ears to what you conclude about your "suspicions".
posted by zardoz at 8:55 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
What kind of man says something like this about a teenaged girl?
Rush Limbaugh, for another.
posted by maxwelton at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2008
Rush Limbaugh, for another.
posted by maxwelton at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2008
Well, I'd much rather be accused of associating with both Rezko and Ayers than Rush Limbaugh.
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:06 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:06 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
But from a tactical point of view, if you don't understand your enemy, then how can you expect to defeat him?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:16 PM on September 20, 2008
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:16 PM on September 20, 2008
Fox News: Congressman Rick Renzi indicted on federal fraud charges. "The charges include conspiracy, wire fraud, money laundering, concealment of money laundering, transactions with criminally derived funds, extortion, insurance fraud and criminal forfeiture."
ABC News: "Rep. Rick Renzi, R-Ariz., allegedly defrauded dozens of pro-life organizations for hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund his first congressional bid...Organizations such as Arizona Right-to-Life, the Hope Crisis Pregnancy Center and the Wickenburg Pregnancy Resource Center paid insurance premiums to Renzi's insurance firm, Renzi & Company, but received notices their insurance coverage was going to be cancelled for nonpayment, according to a 2003 complaint filed with the State of Arizona. The complaint was first reported by the Phoenix New Times.
According to the indictment, Renzi funneled those payments -- totaling more than $400,000 -- through various accounts and finally to his campaign. "
McCain on Renzi: (CBS News) "Rick has represented the first district of Arizona with tenacity, honesty and integrity beyond reproach. I work with Rick every day and can report to you his total dedication to the people of Arizona and the United States." [Asked about the indictment,] McCain said "I don't know enough of the details to make a judgment," McCain said. "These kinds of things are always very unfortunate."
Who's this Rick Renzi? An old neighbor or golf buddy of McCains? Well, no. He was appointed chair of McCain's campaign in McCain's home state.
Ah, the company you keep.
On "feeding the troll" - konolia, I don't consider you a troll. I'm not "feeding" you but responding to your points. Traditionally, in an argument, you respond to such a response with a counterpoint, building the conversation in a linear fashion. What's disappointing about arguing with you is that you don't actually engage in this two-way, participatory process. You just move the goalposts, lobbing out a new point as though your old (generally weakened) point never existed. Not only is that no way to win an argument, it's no way to win respect for yourself and your thinking, or to show respect for others' points of view.
But I thank you anyway. This thread has created a pretty good catalogue of the remaining arguments and strategies the Republicans have to use in this election. And each of those arguments and strategies has been met with serious, substantive challenge. If that doesn't give a person pause, or at least create a willingness to consider matters more closely, it means they're pretty much die-hard supporter to whom new evidence is inadmissible and whose vote was never going to budge anyway. But I do a lot of persuasion calling and canvassing, and doing the research and developing knowledge of -- and responses to -- each of these talking points has helped me immeasurably in talking with undecided voters, who will be the decisive factor in this election. So this really is good practice for me, and I think makes a difference to all of us who talk with undecided voters. It's really helpful. It just makes me sad that here on MetaFilter we aren't really having a conversation, just having the equivalent of a tennis rally that goes like this: konolia serves, others return the serve handily, on topic, in boundaries, hoping to get a nice volley going, and then each time konolia steps aside so the ball dies. That's really not good sportsmanship, and seems like bad faith about the conversation process itself. I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
posted by Miko at 9:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [24 favorites]
ABC News: "Rep. Rick Renzi, R-Ariz., allegedly defrauded dozens of pro-life organizations for hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund his first congressional bid...Organizations such as Arizona Right-to-Life, the Hope Crisis Pregnancy Center and the Wickenburg Pregnancy Resource Center paid insurance premiums to Renzi's insurance firm, Renzi & Company, but received notices their insurance coverage was going to be cancelled for nonpayment, according to a 2003 complaint filed with the State of Arizona. The complaint was first reported by the Phoenix New Times.
According to the indictment, Renzi funneled those payments -- totaling more than $400,000 -- through various accounts and finally to his campaign. "
McCain on Renzi: (CBS News) "Rick has represented the first district of Arizona with tenacity, honesty and integrity beyond reproach. I work with Rick every day and can report to you his total dedication to the people of Arizona and the United States." [Asked about the indictment,] McCain said "I don't know enough of the details to make a judgment," McCain said. "These kinds of things are always very unfortunate."
Who's this Rick Renzi? An old neighbor or golf buddy of McCains? Well, no. He was appointed chair of McCain's campaign in McCain's home state.
Ah, the company you keep.
On "feeding the troll" - konolia, I don't consider you a troll. I'm not "feeding" you but responding to your points. Traditionally, in an argument, you respond to such a response with a counterpoint, building the conversation in a linear fashion. What's disappointing about arguing with you is that you don't actually engage in this two-way, participatory process. You just move the goalposts, lobbing out a new point as though your old (generally weakened) point never existed. Not only is that no way to win an argument, it's no way to win respect for yourself and your thinking, or to show respect for others' points of view.
But I thank you anyway. This thread has created a pretty good catalogue of the remaining arguments and strategies the Republicans have to use in this election. And each of those arguments and strategies has been met with serious, substantive challenge. If that doesn't give a person pause, or at least create a willingness to consider matters more closely, it means they're pretty much die-hard supporter to whom new evidence is inadmissible and whose vote was never going to budge anyway. But I do a lot of persuasion calling and canvassing, and doing the research and developing knowledge of -- and responses to -- each of these talking points has helped me immeasurably in talking with undecided voters, who will be the decisive factor in this election. So this really is good practice for me, and I think makes a difference to all of us who talk with undecided voters. It's really helpful. It just makes me sad that here on MetaFilter we aren't really having a conversation, just having the equivalent of a tennis rally that goes like this: konolia serves, others return the serve handily, on topic, in boundaries, hoping to get a nice volley going, and then each time konolia steps aside so the ball dies. That's really not good sportsmanship, and seems like bad faith about the conversation process itself. I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
posted by Miko at 9:18 PM on September 20, 2008 [24 favorites]
But from a tactical point of view, if you don't understand your enemy, then how can you expect to defeat him?
When all there is to konolia's position is gut feelings and an astounding collection of lies, here's the thing: I don't expect to change her mind. Never, not ever does konolia step up to the plate and present well-supported evidence of fact?
You don't defeat konolia's cult by understanding it: you defeat it by out-numbering it. Which you do, three-to-one. Those people polled who remained in support of Bush even when 80% of the population disapproved of what he was doing? That's her base. They barely. even. count.
Get out the voteL you don't get rid of the rotten power structure without taking away its power.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:34 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
When all there is to konolia's position is gut feelings and an astounding collection of lies, here's the thing: I don't expect to change her mind. Never, not ever does konolia step up to the plate and present well-supported evidence of fact?
You don't defeat konolia's cult by understanding it: you defeat it by out-numbering it. Which you do, three-to-one. Those people polled who remained in support of Bush even when 80% of the population disapproved of what he was doing? That's her base. They barely. even. count.
Get out the voteL you don't get rid of the rotten power structure without taking away its power.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:34 PM on September 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
Because then one would not receive so much attention.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:41 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Because then one would not receive so much attention.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:41 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fine. Call names. I don't care.
All I really need to know about Obama is that he thinks that a baby born alive after a botched abortion should just lay there in the specimen pan and die with no medical treatment.
Forget his whispered connections with Chicago corruption. Forget his, well, forgettable term in the Illinois senate. Forget his selfdescribed foolish real estate deal.
All I really need to know about him is that, hey, these folks,they are paying for a dead baby, they should GET a dead baby.
Don't give me crap about, oh, just trying to make sure Roe Vs Wade stands.
He is playing politics with dying infants.
I cannot and will not respect that.
And someone who can indeed do the above?
Dang straight there's something behind that curtain.
Because even NARAL thinks you should grant medical treatment to a live baby born after an abortion attempt.
And if determining when human life deserves protection is above his pay grade?
Then most assuredly, so is the White House.
posted by konolia at 9:50 PM on September 20, 2008
All I really need to know about Obama is that he thinks that a baby born alive after a botched abortion should just lay there in the specimen pan and die with no medical treatment.
Forget his whispered connections with Chicago corruption. Forget his, well, forgettable term in the Illinois senate. Forget his selfdescribed foolish real estate deal.
All I really need to know about him is that, hey, these folks,they are paying for a dead baby, they should GET a dead baby.
Don't give me crap about, oh, just trying to make sure Roe Vs Wade stands.
He is playing politics with dying infants.
I cannot and will not respect that.
And someone who can indeed do the above?
Dang straight there's something behind that curtain.
Because even NARAL thinks you should grant medical treatment to a live baby born after an abortion attempt.
And if determining when human life deserves protection is above his pay grade?
Then most assuredly, so is the White House.
posted by konolia at 9:50 PM on September 20, 2008
This isn't about defending McCain; it's about tweaking people who support Obama.
The bible says nought about the morality of playing the role of a shitheel in an online community. Indeed, I'm fairly sure it earns Proselytization Points® in some faiths.
It is dead evident to pretty much everyone that konolia is all about the lies. Time and again her statements are discredited by reputable news sources and by plain fact. This has gone on long enough.
A MetaFilter populated by liars would be a much poorer MetaFilter indeed.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:52 PM on September 20, 2008
The bible says nought about the morality of playing the role of a shitheel in an online community. Indeed, I'm fairly sure it earns Proselytization Points® in some faiths.
It is dead evident to pretty much everyone that konolia is all about the lies. Time and again her statements are discredited by reputable news sources and by plain fact. This has gone on long enough.
A MetaFilter populated by liars would be a much poorer MetaFilter indeed.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:52 PM on September 20, 2008
Obama: The Black Nazi. He's coming for your babbies!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:54 PM on September 20, 2008
posted by five fresh fish at 9:54 PM on September 20, 2008
And yet here you are, saying once again that "you don't know enough about Obama" and refusing to fucking say what exactly you want to know.
I'll tell you what she wants to know---
Just something really, really bad, okay? She just wants to find out some bombshell that is so horrendously awful that he will have to slink away forever and the Good People of South Carolina will never have to think of him again. Is that so much to ask???
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:58 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'll tell you what she wants to know---
Just something really, really bad, okay? She just wants to find out some bombshell that is so horrendously awful that he will have to slink away forever and the Good People of South Carolina will never have to think of him again. Is that so much to ask???
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:58 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
You sound hysterical.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:59 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:59 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
FFF, what lies? I have OPINIONS you don't agree with but that does not make them LIES.
And fwiw I haven't had time to read every single comment on this thread. The only reason I am back here at all (I deleted it from recent comments) is nickyskye called me.
Anyway, I'm done here.
posted by konolia at 9:59 PM on September 20, 2008
And fwiw I haven't had time to read every single comment on this thread. The only reason I am back here at all (I deleted it from recent comments) is nickyskye called me.
Anyway, I'm done here.
posted by konolia at 9:59 PM on September 20, 2008
All I really need to know about Obama is that he thinks that a baby born alive after a botched abortion should just lay there in the specimen pan and die with no medical treatment.
THIS WAS ALREADY DEBUNKED EARLIER IN THE THREAD
posted by graventy at 10:03 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
THIS WAS ALREADY DEBUNKED EARLIER IN THE THREAD
posted by graventy at 10:03 PM on September 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
> I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
Because for some of us, deep down, we fear that if we silence the last red voice, we will become a crazy blue echo chamber.
But then maybe someone else will step in and provide a proper return volley, and a discussion can commence.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:03 PM on September 20, 2008
Because for some of us, deep down, we fear that if we silence the last red voice, we will become a crazy blue echo chamber.
But then maybe someone else will step in and provide a proper return volley, and a discussion can commence.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:03 PM on September 20, 2008
HOW IS LIVE BABBY AFTER ABORTED
No, seriously - could someone that isn't konolia please explain to me, in objective terms, how the hell one gets a live "baby" after an abortion? Are there medically documented cases or something? I would think that even after a non-textbook-perfect abortion, the fetus would be too damaged to survive outside the woman's body, but IANAD...
(do zombie fetuses count as "live"?)
posted by casarkos at 10:08 PM on September 20, 2008
No, seriously - could someone that isn't konolia please explain to me, in objective terms, how the hell one gets a live "baby" after an abortion? Are there medically documented cases or something? I would think that even after a non-textbook-perfect abortion, the fetus would be too damaged to survive outside the woman's body, but IANAD...
(do zombie fetuses count as "live"?)
posted by casarkos at 10:08 PM on September 20, 2008
Everybody needs a hug.
sorry, couldn't help it
posted by neroli at 10:15 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
sorry, couldn't help it
posted by neroli at 10:15 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I'm done here.
Promise?
I understand why people want to refute konolia -- I've tried to do it myself. But if these threads have proven nothing else, it's that she's never going to listen. She doesn't want to hear what you have to say. She's the end product of thirty years of dirty pool by the RNC, an organization that absolutely thrives on the ignorance of the people who feed it money. It's not a red state or a blue state thing. It's not big cities vs. small towns. It's willful ignorance, ostriches with heads in the sand, hoping to god that someone won't make them think. Because if these people actually sat down to think about what a goddamn mess their political leaders have made of this country, they would never, ever recover. So they choose cognitive dissonance over the knowledge of their own dirty hands. They choose to repeat lies, like a child does, as if saying something enough times makes it come true.
I would absolutely relish a conversation with someone on the other side of the political spectrum from me, if it was an intelligent debate rather than talking points vomit. I've often said that politics are my sports. But anyone looking to get that kind of back-and-forth from konolia or others like her will be sadly disappointed. She cannot have that conversation with you.
posted by sugarfish at 10:31 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Promise?
I understand why people want to refute konolia -- I've tried to do it myself. But if these threads have proven nothing else, it's that she's never going to listen. She doesn't want to hear what you have to say. She's the end product of thirty years of dirty pool by the RNC, an organization that absolutely thrives on the ignorance of the people who feed it money. It's not a red state or a blue state thing. It's not big cities vs. small towns. It's willful ignorance, ostriches with heads in the sand, hoping to god that someone won't make them think. Because if these people actually sat down to think about what a goddamn mess their political leaders have made of this country, they would never, ever recover. So they choose cognitive dissonance over the knowledge of their own dirty hands. They choose to repeat lies, like a child does, as if saying something enough times makes it come true.
I would absolutely relish a conversation with someone on the other side of the political spectrum from me, if it was an intelligent debate rather than talking points vomit. I've often said that politics are my sports. But anyone looking to get that kind of back-and-forth from konolia or others like her will be sadly disappointed. She cannot have that conversation with you.
posted by sugarfish at 10:31 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
All I really need to know about Obama is that he thinks that a baby born alive after a botched abortion should just lay there in the specimen pan and die with no medical treatment.
Well, shit, if you're going to know lies about him, why not know that he personally went back in time and became Pontius Pilate, and then went back again and became Judas, and a third time and was Mengele and really enjoyed it, and he's really a Red Lectroid from Planet 10 and he eats old people's medicine for fuel?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:52 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, shit, if you're going to know lies about him, why not know that he personally went back in time and became Pontius Pilate, and then went back again and became Judas, and a third time and was Mengele and really enjoyed it, and he's really a Red Lectroid from Planet 10 and he eats old people's medicine for fuel?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:52 PM on September 20, 2008 [3 favorites]
The Candidates and the Supreme Court
posted by homunculus at 11:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 11:12 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Starting with a baseline of the states Kerry won in 2004 plus Iowa and New Mexico puts Obama at 264 electoral votes with 270 needed to win (he's leading in all these states today except New Hampshire, but I think NH will go for Obama). Florida, Nevada, and Ohio are close swing states again this time. Colorado and Virginia are swing states this year.
The trend lines in Arkansas, Indiana, Louisiana, and West Virginia look surprisingly good for Obama (but those states don't get polled that often).
McCain has to win every state I named (except New Hempshire) to win.
If Obama wins the Kerry states plus Iowa and New Mexico plus any one of Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Nevada, Ohio, Virginia, or West Virginia, he wins.
If Obama wins only the Kerry states plus Iowa and New Mexico and either Nevada or West Virginia, McCain and Obama tie with 269 electoral votes apiece and the election goes to the House of Representatives and the incoming House votes on a state-by-state basis (and Obama probably wins).
posted by kirkaracha at 11:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
The trend lines in Arkansas, Indiana, Louisiana, and West Virginia look surprisingly good for Obama (but those states don't get polled that often).
McCain has to win every state I named (except New Hempshire) to win.
If Obama wins the Kerry states plus Iowa and New Mexico plus any one of Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Nevada, Ohio, Virginia, or West Virginia, he wins.
If Obama wins only the Kerry states plus Iowa and New Mexico and either Nevada or West Virginia, McCain and Obama tie with 269 electoral votes apiece and the election goes to the House of Representatives and the incoming House votes on a state-by-state basis (and Obama probably wins).
posted by kirkaracha at 11:20 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Seriously, jessamyn...
Seriously METATALK for dealing with this. This thread is way too long to have this discussion here.
posted by jessamyn at 11:21 PM on September 20, 2008
Seriously METATALK for dealing with this. This thread is way too long to have this discussion here.
posted by jessamyn at 11:21 PM on September 20, 2008
Thanks all, for all the links, analysis, and refutations of unsubstantiated rumours. I'm better informed now about all four candidates, and much better able to argue my position. I've recently become friends with a conservative who's always voted right-wing, out of habit and a tendency to get most his information from right-wing sources without thinking about it critically. I have had much fun pointing out how badly grounded his opinions are, and he's intellectually honest enough to take it good-naturedly and concede "Yeah, you're right, I'm moving the goalposts" or "Yeah, that lying 'Teaching sex to kindergarteners' ad of McCain's is inexcusable."
He observed plaintively last week after fielding several sets of links I'd sent him that "You've got the whole team at Metafilter finding articles for you," and yesterday sent me this:
"I'm starting to worry - may not be able to amuse you anymore - moving over to your side on more things than you know."
Like me, he's Canadian, so Obama won't be getting another vote out of it. But it seems to me that there are probably some people lurking here who, like him, are intelligent and conscientious and honest enough, who love learning and sharpening their thinking more than clinging to the belief that they're always right, to engage with the facts and arguments presented here. To use them to, if not "move over to my side," at least ensure that their own positions are grounded in more than suspicion and rumour. Come on out of the woodwork, please? And again, thanks to everyone for the links and analysis. Hugs all around!
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:30 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
He observed plaintively last week after fielding several sets of links I'd sent him that "You've got the whole team at Metafilter finding articles for you," and yesterday sent me this:
"I'm starting to worry - may not be able to amuse you anymore - moving over to your side on more things than you know."
Like me, he's Canadian, so Obama won't be getting another vote out of it. But it seems to me that there are probably some people lurking here who, like him, are intelligent and conscientious and honest enough, who love learning and sharpening their thinking more than clinging to the belief that they're always right, to engage with the facts and arguments presented here. To use them to, if not "move over to my side," at least ensure that their own positions are grounded in more than suspicion and rumour. Come on out of the woodwork, please? And again, thanks to everyone for the links and analysis. Hugs all around!
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:30 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Ha. Good times.
Parting shot to the one who went away: you defend your opinion with lies. I've counted over 30 bald faced lies from you in this thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:51 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Parting shot to the one who went away: you defend your opinion with lies. I've counted over 30 bald faced lies from you in this thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:51 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just for laughs--an amusing, if a bit juvenile, opinion piece on Sarah Palin.
posted by zardoz at 5:25 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 5:25 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ha.
Saturday Night Live was merciless about the "McCain the Liar" meme last night. Perfect pitch sketch of a desperate McCain "approving" ever more slanderous and dishonest commercials in desperation.
Here's the thing about lying, deceiving, distorting, and making shit up (for a certain someone who is far too invested in being the center of attention to have actually left). Once you get known as a liar, nothing you say has any credibility. People assume everything you say is a lie. This also happens when you consort professionally with known and proven liars like Sarah Palin.
I am amazed to see it sticking to McCain and Palin, at long last. We watched the GOP lie its way into office in 2000 and 2004 by controlling the media and telling really big lies. But maybe it's because McCain (like konolia) is such a bad, emotion-driven liar, or maybe it's because Sarah Palin is so egregiously, obviously, unqualified to be dog catcher and is clearly lying to our faces, even now repeating lies that have been made famous as if no one had said anything.
But the story of this election has now become: McCain is an opportunistic and bad liar. And he picked a vice presidential nominee who is a serial and pathological liar. When the election can be driven to topics that are emotional and not serious or rational, lying can work, but people are too worried to be quite as bamboozled by bullshit this time.
Once SNL has its parodic teeth into a trope like "Lying McCain," it's out there big time.
McCain/Palin has become a pathetic joke. In one week. During the duration of this very thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:10 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Saturday Night Live was merciless about the "McCain the Liar" meme last night. Perfect pitch sketch of a desperate McCain "approving" ever more slanderous and dishonest commercials in desperation.
Here's the thing about lying, deceiving, distorting, and making shit up (for a certain someone who is far too invested in being the center of attention to have actually left). Once you get known as a liar, nothing you say has any credibility. People assume everything you say is a lie. This also happens when you consort professionally with known and proven liars like Sarah Palin.
I am amazed to see it sticking to McCain and Palin, at long last. We watched the GOP lie its way into office in 2000 and 2004 by controlling the media and telling really big lies. But maybe it's because McCain (like konolia) is such a bad, emotion-driven liar, or maybe it's because Sarah Palin is so egregiously, obviously, unqualified to be dog catcher and is clearly lying to our faces, even now repeating lies that have been made famous as if no one had said anything.
But the story of this election has now become: McCain is an opportunistic and bad liar. And he picked a vice presidential nominee who is a serial and pathological liar. When the election can be driven to topics that are emotional and not serious or rational, lying can work, but people are too worried to be quite as bamboozled by bullshit this time.
Once SNL has its parodic teeth into a trope like "Lying McCain," it's out there big time.
McCain/Palin has become a pathetic joke. In one week. During the duration of this very thread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:10 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
McCain Rated As America’s Worst Senator For Children
Today, the Children’s Defense Fund Action Council released its 2007 Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard. CDF reports some positive news, particularly that average scores for members of Congress “improved from the previous three years with more Members scoring 100 percent than in 2004, 2005 or 2006.”
Many, however, did not fare so well. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) received a 10 percent rating — the worst in the U.S. Senate.
CDF ranked members on 10 votes affecting children:
1. Increase minimum wage (H.R. 2)
2. Increase funding for children with disabilities (S. Con. Res. 21)
3. Protect children from unsafe medications (S. 1082)
4. 2008 Budget resolution (S. Con. Res. 21)
5. SCHIP Reauthorization (H.R. 976)
6. College Cost Reduction and Access Act (H.R. 2669)
7. SCHIP (H.R. 976 - motion to concur)
8. DREAM Act (S. 2205)
9. Funding child health and education (H.R. 3043)
10. Improving Head Start programs (H.R. 1429)
McCain has missed 57 percent of Senate votes this session, being absent or voting “present” for 8 out of 10 children-related votes. McCain voted “yes” to increase the minimum wage; his only other vote was voting “no” on SCHIP reauthorization on Aug. 2, 2007:
Furthermore, the rankings weren’t divided by party. Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Gordon Smith (R-OR) received strong 70 percent rankings.
McCain’s CDF score has steadily declined over the years. In 2004, he received a 38 percent; in 2005, 22 percent; in 2006, 10 percent.
Read the full report here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:16 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Today, the Children’s Defense Fund Action Council released its 2007 Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard. CDF reports some positive news, particularly that average scores for members of Congress “improved from the previous three years with more Members scoring 100 percent than in 2004, 2005 or 2006.”
Many, however, did not fare so well. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) received a 10 percent rating — the worst in the U.S. Senate.
CDF ranked members on 10 votes affecting children:
1. Increase minimum wage (H.R. 2)
2. Increase funding for children with disabilities (S. Con. Res. 21)
3. Protect children from unsafe medications (S. 1082)
4. 2008 Budget resolution (S. Con. Res. 21)
5. SCHIP Reauthorization (H.R. 976)
6. College Cost Reduction and Access Act (H.R. 2669)
7. SCHIP (H.R. 976 - motion to concur)
8. DREAM Act (S. 2205)
9. Funding child health and education (H.R. 3043)
10. Improving Head Start programs (H.R. 1429)
McCain has missed 57 percent of Senate votes this session, being absent or voting “present” for 8 out of 10 children-related votes. McCain voted “yes” to increase the minimum wage; his only other vote was voting “no” on SCHIP reauthorization on Aug. 2, 2007:
Furthermore, the rankings weren’t divided by party. Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Gordon Smith (R-OR) received strong 70 percent rankings.
McCain’s CDF score has steadily declined over the years. In 2004, he received a 38 percent; in 2005, 22 percent; in 2006, 10 percent.
Read the full report here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:16 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
McCain and Palin have indeed found themselves defined as "liars" these past couple of weeks. And it is sticking.
Expect to see each depicted with Pinocchio noses in comedy sketches (example) and political cartoons (example), not to mention Halloween costumes. Some folks are mobilzing to show up at McCain/Palin events wearing the noses.
posted by ericb at 6:22 AM on September 21, 2008
Expect to see each depicted with Pinocchio noses in comedy sketches (example) and political cartoons (example), not to mention Halloween costumes. Some folks are mobilzing to show up at McCain/Palin events wearing the noses.
posted by ericb at 6:22 AM on September 21, 2008
You don't defeat konolia's cult by understanding it: you defeat it by out-numbering it.
How'd that work for ya in 2000, 2002 and 2004?
It would be good for the Democrats to remember that they won in 2006 because things were sucking so bad, not so much because they did a great job.
My overall in this conversation is this: If konolia and similar conservatives rely more on gut feelings rather than a list of facts, then give them a good gut feeling about your candidate, instead of presenting a list of facts over and over that has been shown not to change their mind. Stop with the juvenile name calling and treat them as people worthy of respect.
Doing this will defuse the culture wars and give less room for a Karl Rove type to come in and exploit the differences for political gain. Remember, the presidential elections were close. It's unbelievably stupid for Democrats to continually push people away when literally every vote will count.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:46 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
How'd that work for ya in 2000, 2002 and 2004?
It would be good for the Democrats to remember that they won in 2006 because things were sucking so bad, not so much because they did a great job.
My overall in this conversation is this: If konolia and similar conservatives rely more on gut feelings rather than a list of facts, then give them a good gut feeling about your candidate, instead of presenting a list of facts over and over that has been shown not to change their mind. Stop with the juvenile name calling and treat them as people worthy of respect.
Doing this will defuse the culture wars and give less room for a Karl Rove type to come in and exploit the differences for political gain. Remember, the presidential elections were close. It's unbelievably stupid for Democrats to continually push people away when literally every vote will count.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:46 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
I have to go with Miko's awesome approach to konolia here. I too am frustrated that so much of the conversation has been diverted to a nonproductive back and forth, but I can't support people calling konolia names and dubbing her a liar. You can be wrong, misguided, or ill-informed without being a liar. Obama is all about taking the high road - should his supporters do any less?
Plus, as Miko and cybercoitus interruptus have noted, konolia has played the role of a foil prompting many here to present an awesome collection of facts, refutations and arguments against the republican party talking points trotted out by the far right. This thread has become a "facts at your fingertips" resource that I will be using often and I know others will.
I have relatives like konolia in my life - swallowing all the lies about Obama hook, line, and sinker. I am convinced that I will never get them to change their minds about Obama - they are either too strongly single issue (abortion) or racist. My goal now is simply to get them to change their minds about McCain-Palin and either sit this one out or vote for a third party.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:48 AM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
Plus, as Miko and cybercoitus interruptus have noted, konolia has played the role of a foil prompting many here to present an awesome collection of facts, refutations and arguments against the republican party talking points trotted out by the far right. This thread has become a "facts at your fingertips" resource that I will be using often and I know others will.
I have relatives like konolia in my life - swallowing all the lies about Obama hook, line, and sinker. I am convinced that I will never get them to change their minds about Obama - they are either too strongly single issue (abortion) or racist. My goal now is simply to get them to change their minds about McCain-Palin and either sit this one out or vote for a third party.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:48 AM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
George Will (!) on Stephanpoulous this AM:
"John McCain showed his personality this week and it made some of us fearful."
George. Will.
Over.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:49 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
"John McCain showed his personality this week and it made some of us fearful."
George. Will.
Over.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:49 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
How'd that work for ya in 2000, 2002 and 2004?
Well, we won a majority in 2000 but had the election stolen. After that, the GOP controlled the power of the incumbent presidency, so any subsequent wins were tainted by the illegitimacy of 2000.
It worked out rather better in 2006, as the truth about BushCo became clearer.
This time, it's going to work out much better, I think.
Anyway, some more links:
Alan Wolfe -- The Lying Game (Salon)
McCain's propensity to lie has become what political junkies call a meme, an idea or behavior that runs, seemingly unstoppably, from one media outlet to another. Some bloggers offer daily counts of how many falsehoods McCain tells while others wonder why the Democrats do not respond in turn. Even the mainstream press has gotten into the act. One of the pleasures of the 2008 campaign -- I admit they have been few and far between -- is watching all those who once admired John McCain for his truthfulness realize the true depths of his moral depravity. When McCain is linked to Palin, moreover, as he so frequently wants to be, lying experiences something of a multiplier effect. These candidates lie so much that they have taken to lying about their own lies. . . . Why do Republicans lie so much? Why is McCain following the Bush script? Why, at the very moment when he wanted a "maverick" by his side, did McCain pick a congenital liar to be his running mate? Republicans engage in what I can only call "structural lies." To understand what this means consider this: Just about every significant lie uttered by Republican politicians is designed to make them seem less conservative than they really are.
McCain Lie-O-Meter
(McCainpedia) -- currently at 61 documented lies.
CNN: Documenting McCain's lies -- YouTube
Patrick Healy: Let's Call A Lie, A Lie, Finally (NY Times, Week in Review)
Ezra Klein -- "It's Not a Lie if John McCain Says It" American Prospect.
Sarah Palin: Maverick to Nowhere (TPM video, documenting McCain/Palin lies) Youtube
Paul Krugman - "Blizzard of Lies" (NY Times, Sept. 11)
Lies, Damn Lies, and John McCain (Mark Mellman, The Hill, 9/16)
And a wonderful, detailed look at McCain's long history of lying and corruption in Arizona, Amy Silverman's New Times article "Postmodern John McCain: The Presidential Candidate Some Arizonans Know -- and Loathe." (Aug. 7)
So . . . . Thanks, But No Thanks to Lyin' John and his pal, Snowjob Squareglasses (h/t to Charles Blow, NYT, "Lipstick Bungle")
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:15 AM on September 21, 2008 [7 favorites]
Well, we won a majority in 2000 but had the election stolen. After that, the GOP controlled the power of the incumbent presidency, so any subsequent wins were tainted by the illegitimacy of 2000.
It worked out rather better in 2006, as the truth about BushCo became clearer.
This time, it's going to work out much better, I think.
Anyway, some more links:
Alan Wolfe -- The Lying Game (Salon)
McCain's propensity to lie has become what political junkies call a meme, an idea or behavior that runs, seemingly unstoppably, from one media outlet to another. Some bloggers offer daily counts of how many falsehoods McCain tells while others wonder why the Democrats do not respond in turn. Even the mainstream press has gotten into the act. One of the pleasures of the 2008 campaign -- I admit they have been few and far between -- is watching all those who once admired John McCain for his truthfulness realize the true depths of his moral depravity. When McCain is linked to Palin, moreover, as he so frequently wants to be, lying experiences something of a multiplier effect. These candidates lie so much that they have taken to lying about their own lies. . . . Why do Republicans lie so much? Why is McCain following the Bush script? Why, at the very moment when he wanted a "maverick" by his side, did McCain pick a congenital liar to be his running mate? Republicans engage in what I can only call "structural lies." To understand what this means consider this: Just about every significant lie uttered by Republican politicians is designed to make them seem less conservative than they really are.
McCain Lie-O-Meter
(McCainpedia) -- currently at 61 documented lies.
CNN: Documenting McCain's lies -- YouTube
Patrick Healy: Let's Call A Lie, A Lie, Finally (NY Times, Week in Review)
Ezra Klein -- "It's Not a Lie if John McCain Says It" American Prospect.
Sarah Palin: Maverick to Nowhere (TPM video, documenting McCain/Palin lies) Youtube
Paul Krugman - "Blizzard of Lies" (NY Times, Sept. 11)
Lies, Damn Lies, and John McCain (Mark Mellman, The Hill, 9/16)
And a wonderful, detailed look at McCain's long history of lying and corruption in Arizona, Amy Silverman's New Times article "Postmodern John McCain: The Presidential Candidate Some Arizonans Know -- and Loathe." (Aug. 7)
So . . . . Thanks, But No Thanks to Lyin' John and his pal, Snowjob Squareglasses (h/t to Charles Blow, NYT, "Lipstick Bungle")
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:15 AM on September 21, 2008 [7 favorites]
Well, we won a majority in 2000 but had the election stolen.
How can you respect a party that let an election be stolen from them? Seriously, that's screams wimp. and they're still whining about, eight years later, blaming other election losses on it. Geez, these are the last people I want near the nuclear codes, since they won't even have the guts to use them.
I'm channeling here, of course.
More channeling:
It just makes me sad that here on MetaFilter we aren't really having a conversation, just having the equivalent of a tennis rally that goes like this: konolia serves, others return the serve handily, on topic, in boundaries, hoping to get a nice volley going, and then each time konolia steps aside so the ball dies. That's really not good sportsmanship, and seems like bad faith about the conversation process itself. I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
You see, my fellow conservatives, DO YOU SEE?! They really do want us to just shut up and take their crap. They don't respect us at all, so why the hell should we waste time responding to every little point of theirs?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:34 AM on September 21, 2008
How can you respect a party that let an election be stolen from them? Seriously, that's screams wimp. and they're still whining about, eight years later, blaming other election losses on it. Geez, these are the last people I want near the nuclear codes, since they won't even have the guts to use them.
I'm channeling here, of course.
More channeling:
It just makes me sad that here on MetaFilter we aren't really having a conversation, just having the equivalent of a tennis rally that goes like this: konolia serves, others return the serve handily, on topic, in boundaries, hoping to get a nice volley going, and then each time konolia steps aside so the ball dies. That's really not good sportsmanship, and seems like bad faith about the conversation process itself. I can understand not wanting to engage in conversation. But then why not just be quiet?
You see, my fellow conservatives, DO YOU SEE?! They really do want us to just shut up and take their crap. They don't respect us at all, so why the hell should we waste time responding to every little point of theirs?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:34 AM on September 21, 2008
They don't respect us at all, so why the hell should we waste time responding to every little point of theirs?
I think conservatives are more than capable of substantial argument. What konolia does has nothing to do with her party affiliation.
And why is it their game? Why are we obliged to spoonfeed aw-shucks pleasantries to people who've already made up their minds? Thanks but no thanks - I'd rather do my bit to help motivate the base and turn undecideds.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:40 AM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
I think conservatives are more than capable of substantial argument. What konolia does has nothing to do with her party affiliation.
And why is it their game? Why are we obliged to spoonfeed aw-shucks pleasantries to people who've already made up their minds? Thanks but no thanks - I'd rather do my bit to help motivate the base and turn undecideds.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:40 AM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
Thanks but no thanks...
Hey, stop quoting Palin!
posted by ericb at 8:02 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hey, stop quoting Palin!
posted by ericb at 8:02 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hey, stop quoting Palin!
I did it on purpose! It's a good phrase to throw right back at the GOP. It reminds everyone of a callous and obvious lie they kept repeating until "liar" became McCain's brand name, replacing "honor." It's the little lie that unraveled the big lies the GOP is telling us. And it's what I hope 54 or so million voters say to McCain/Palin on Nov. 4.
Thanks, but no thanks, you liars.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:10 AM on September 21, 2008
I did it on purpose! It's a good phrase to throw right back at the GOP. It reminds everyone of a callous and obvious lie they kept repeating until "liar" became McCain's brand name, replacing "honor." It's the little lie that unraveled the big lies the GOP is telling us. And it's what I hope 54 or so million voters say to McCain/Palin on Nov. 4.
Thanks, but no thanks, you liars.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:10 AM on September 21, 2008
How can you respect a party that let an election be stolen from them?
You are kidding right? I can respect the victim of a theft much more than I can the thief, in general. When it's democracy itself that has been stolen, it's dead easy.
This year, it's finally time for payback. And after that, war crimes trials.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:13 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
You are kidding right? I can respect the victim of a theft much more than I can the thief, in general. When it's democracy itself that has been stolen, it's dead easy.
This year, it's finally time for payback. And after that, war crimes trials.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:13 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hey, stop quoting Palin!
She totally stole that from me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:15 AM on September 21, 2008
She totally stole that from me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:15 AM on September 21, 2008
Why are we obliged to spoonfeed aw-shucks pleasantries to people who've already made up their minds?
Because if you don't, someone else will.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2008
Because if you don't, someone else will.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2008
Joe Klein | Time Magazine:
"One of the big differences between the old John McCain and the current edition is that the old one (1) would admit error and (2) would admit there were things he didn't know. That was a good part of his charm. The current edition--a parody of the worst sort of political flim-flam artist--not only lies about his own positions, but attempts to camouflage those lies by mischaracterizing his opponent's positions. It is appropriate, then, that the American Academy of Actuaries--a group devoted to the precise calculation of death rates--has exposed McCain's extravagant fraudulence of the past week for what it was."posted by ericb at 8:41 AM on September 21, 2008
"You can learn something about a person by the company she keeps. In the churches where Palin has worshiped for decades, parishioners enjoy "baptism in the Holy Spirit," "miraculous healings" and "the gift of tongues." Invariably, they offer astonishingly irrational accounts of this behavior and of its significance for the entire cosmos. Palin's spiritual colleagues describe themselves as part of "the final generation," engaged in "spiritual warfare" to purge the earth of "demonic strongholds." Palin has spent her entire adult life immersed in this apocalyptic hysteria. Ask yourself: Is it a good idea to place the most powerful military on earth at her disposal?"
posted by plexi at 8:41 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by plexi at 8:41 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080929/berman_ames
Common man, everyone's plumber, pure of heart John McCain, boarding the yacht of confessed con-man Rafaello Follieri in Montenegro in August.
Excerpt:
"At the time he met McCain, Follieri was adept at collecting friends in powerful places and using those connections to attract investments in projects which later turned out to be bogus. . . . . . Follieri's ties to McCain's orbit have been largely overlooked by the media. Follieri first met McCain when the Arizona Senator visited Montenegro from August 29-31 as part of a Congressional delegation that included Republican senators Lindsay Graham, Richard Burr, Saxby Chambliss, Mel Martinez and John Sununu. . . .
What, exactly, was McCain doing aboard Follieri's yacht? Or put another way, was this McCain's 70th birthday wish--to spend an evening floating on the Adriatic with one of Hollywood's top actresses and her smooth-talking Italian beau?"
What kind of man hangs around with convicted con artists and (gasp) their Hollywood celebrity girlfriends?
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:46 AM on September 21, 2008
Common man, everyone's plumber, pure of heart John McCain, boarding the yacht of confessed con-man Rafaello Follieri in Montenegro in August.
Excerpt:
"At the time he met McCain, Follieri was adept at collecting friends in powerful places and using those connections to attract investments in projects which later turned out to be bogus. . . . . . Follieri's ties to McCain's orbit have been largely overlooked by the media. Follieri first met McCain when the Arizona Senator visited Montenegro from August 29-31 as part of a Congressional delegation that included Republican senators Lindsay Graham, Richard Burr, Saxby Chambliss, Mel Martinez and John Sununu. . . .
What, exactly, was McCain doing aboard Follieri's yacht? Or put another way, was this McCain's 70th birthday wish--to spend an evening floating on the Adriatic with one of Hollywood's top actresses and her smooth-talking Italian beau?"
What kind of man hangs around with convicted con artists and (gasp) their Hollywood celebrity girlfriends?
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:46 AM on September 21, 2008
Palin has spent her entire adult life immersed in this apocalyptic hysteria. Ask yourself: Is it a good idea to place the most powerful military on earth at her disposal?
Actually, I'd go a step further and say that anyone who uses the word, "smite" either in a non-ironic way or when not directly quoting some Old Testament passage should not be allowed anywhere near a foreign policy decision-making position.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:50 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Actually, I'd go a step further and say that anyone who uses the word, "smite" either in a non-ironic way or when not directly quoting some Old Testament passage should not be allowed anywhere near a foreign policy decision-making position.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:50 AM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Because if you don't, someone else will.
I know where you're coming from here, but did you see the part where I said "people who've already made up their minds"? It's an exercise in futility to try and pander to people who've clearly already firmly decided on who they're voting for, who demonstrate denial and cognitive dissonance whe confronted with substance, and will never, ever perceive Obama to be some good ol' boy now matter what kind of charismatic delights he may perform. Those people are a lost cause and it's a waste of energy trying to convince them of anything. I'm tired of the fatalist mentality that we need to bend over backwards to appease a few nutjobs who've already very clearly stated where their vote lies when we've got a wide swath of undecideds out there who outnumber them, as well as a number of Democrats who need to be reminded to vote.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:11 AM on September 21, 2008
I know where you're coming from here, but did you see the part where I said "people who've already made up their minds"? It's an exercise in futility to try and pander to people who've clearly already firmly decided on who they're voting for, who demonstrate denial and cognitive dissonance whe confronted with substance, and will never, ever perceive Obama to be some good ol' boy now matter what kind of charismatic delights he may perform. Those people are a lost cause and it's a waste of energy trying to convince them of anything. I'm tired of the fatalist mentality that we need to bend over backwards to appease a few nutjobs who've already very clearly stated where their vote lies when we've got a wide swath of undecideds out there who outnumber them, as well as a number of Democrats who need to be reminded to vote.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:11 AM on September 21, 2008
The McCains have 13 cars (the Obamas have one).
posted by kirkaracha at 9:24 AM on September 21, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 9:24 AM on September 21, 2008
I know where you're coming from here, but did you see the part where I said "people who've already made up their minds"? It's an exercise in futility to try and pander to people who've clearly already firmly decided on who they're voting for
I agree with this. We don't actually need to argue with or convince die-hard conservatives; the ones still supporting McCain/Palin have shown that nothing will budge them from this position. It would be a waste of time to try to change their votes; once it becomes clear that they're not interested in prioritizing the health of the nation over themselves and their special interests, it's time to move on. All we need to do is concentrate our efforts on winning the votes of the legions of reasonable people who are troubled with the results of the direction the Republican Party has taken over the last decade. The Democratic strategy is to concentrate on undecideds and new voters, and in canvassing, I've seen it be very effective. I'm volunteering in New Hampshire, and I feel really pretty encouraged that the state's going to go blue - it did in '04, just barely, and we're talking to a lot more changed-stance voters this year than turned up in '04. Also, people are tired of combative politics and really wanting to find common cause. A lot of the undecideds I've been talking to want to see more bipartisanship, and they're not seeing it in the McCain approach, which disappoints them because he was once thought to work across the aisle. What they don't want to see is more attempts to splinter the populace with false divisions. So that's not what the Democratic Party is doing. Our strategy isn't broken.
posted by Miko at 9:56 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
I agree with this. We don't actually need to argue with or convince die-hard conservatives; the ones still supporting McCain/Palin have shown that nothing will budge them from this position. It would be a waste of time to try to change their votes; once it becomes clear that they're not interested in prioritizing the health of the nation over themselves and their special interests, it's time to move on. All we need to do is concentrate our efforts on winning the votes of the legions of reasonable people who are troubled with the results of the direction the Republican Party has taken over the last decade. The Democratic strategy is to concentrate on undecideds and new voters, and in canvassing, I've seen it be very effective. I'm volunteering in New Hampshire, and I feel really pretty encouraged that the state's going to go blue - it did in '04, just barely, and we're talking to a lot more changed-stance voters this year than turned up in '04. Also, people are tired of combative politics and really wanting to find common cause. A lot of the undecideds I've been talking to want to see more bipartisanship, and they're not seeing it in the McCain approach, which disappoints them because he was once thought to work across the aisle. What they don't want to see is more attempts to splinter the populace with false divisions. So that's not what the Democratic Party is doing. Our strategy isn't broken.
posted by Miko at 9:56 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Want Equal Pay? Lilly Ledbetter In New Obama Ad
posted by homunculus at 9:58 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 9:58 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
The Push to ‘Otherize’ Obama
"What is happening, I think, is this: religious prejudice is becoming a proxy for racial prejudice. In public at least, it’s not acceptable to express reservations about a candidate’s skin color, so discomfort about race is sublimated into concerns about whether Mr. Obama is sufficiently Christian. The result is this campaign to 'otherize' Mr. Obama. Nobody needs to point out that he is black, but there’s a persistent effort to exaggerate other differences, to de-Americanize him."
posted by homunculus at 11:15 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
"What is happening, I think, is this: religious prejudice is becoming a proxy for racial prejudice. In public at least, it’s not acceptable to express reservations about a candidate’s skin color, so discomfort about race is sublimated into concerns about whether Mr. Obama is sufficiently Christian. The result is this campaign to 'otherize' Mr. Obama. Nobody needs to point out that he is black, but there’s a persistent effort to exaggerate other differences, to de-Americanize him."
posted by homunculus at 11:15 AM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Obama on the bailout plan to nowhere: thanks, but no thanks.
We must work quickly in a bipartisan fashion to resolve this crisis to avert an even broader economic catastrophe. But Washington also has to recognize that economic recovery requires that we act, not just to address the crisis on Wall Street, but also the crisis on Main Street and around kitchen tables across America.
As of now, the Bush Administration has only offered a concept with a staggering price tag, not a plan. Even if the U.S. Treasury recovers some or most of its investment over time, this initial outlay of up to $700 billion is sobering. And in return for their support, the American people must be assured that the deal reflects the basic principles of transparency, fairness, and reform.
First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
Second, taxpayers shouldn’t be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.
Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.
And finally, this plan can’t just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street. We have to come together, as Democrats and Republicans, to pass a stimulus plan that will put money in the pockets of working families, save jobs, and prevent painful budget cuts and tax hikes in our states.
posted by maudlin at 11:36 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
We must work quickly in a bipartisan fashion to resolve this crisis to avert an even broader economic catastrophe. But Washington also has to recognize that economic recovery requires that we act, not just to address the crisis on Wall Street, but also the crisis on Main Street and around kitchen tables across America.
As of now, the Bush Administration has only offered a concept with a staggering price tag, not a plan. Even if the U.S. Treasury recovers some or most of its investment over time, this initial outlay of up to $700 billion is sobering. And in return for their support, the American people must be assured that the deal reflects the basic principles of transparency, fairness, and reform.
First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
Second, taxpayers shouldn’t be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.
Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.
And finally, this plan can’t just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street. We have to come together, as Democrats and Republicans, to pass a stimulus plan that will put money in the pockets of working families, save jobs, and prevent painful budget cuts and tax hikes in our states.
posted by maudlin at 11:36 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
On a random note, I was trawling through Metafilter looking for a webcomic to read and stumbled across this, which is Washington's farewell speech "translated" into modern talk. It's quite long but worth a read with some prescient points such as:
Control goes back and forth between one party and another, and they just get more and more pissed, and we’ve seen that get really bad in the past. But it also leads to terrible, controlling government and general suckage. This gets the people more angry, they get behind one party leader or another, and that guy just takes that support and does whatever he wants, screwing up the country.
I’m not talking about anyone in particular here, but this isn’t necessarially too far off, and it’s always gonna be a threat, so keep an eye out.
This division distracts us, enfeebles the government, it gets everyone riled up with jealousy and false alarms, it pits us against each other, and eventually creates riots and stuff. It also opens the door to other countries getting a hand in our system, since they can reach in through the party structure, and then we just become their puppets.
I can't vouch for its accuracy in interpreting his speech, but it's still food for though.
posted by like_neon at 11:44 AM on September 21, 2008
Control goes back and forth between one party and another, and they just get more and more pissed, and we’ve seen that get really bad in the past. But it also leads to terrible, controlling government and general suckage. This gets the people more angry, they get behind one party leader or another, and that guy just takes that support and does whatever he wants, screwing up the country.
I’m not talking about anyone in particular here, but this isn’t necessarially too far off, and it’s always gonna be a threat, so keep an eye out.
This division distracts us, enfeebles the government, it gets everyone riled up with jealousy and false alarms, it pits us against each other, and eventually creates riots and stuff. It also opens the door to other countries getting a hand in our system, since they can reach in through the party structure, and then we just become their puppets.
I can't vouch for its accuracy in interpreting his speech, but it's still food for though.
posted by like_neon at 11:44 AM on September 21, 2008
But Washington also has to recognize that economic recovery requires that we act, not just to address the crisis on Wall Street, but also the crisis on Main Street and around kitchen tables across America.
the first real test of the obama presidency is upon him already - is this just going to be talk or is he actually willing to lead the democrats in congress into a showdown with bush over this plan?
things could get very nasty quickly if this turns into a fight - and i don't like the idea of bailing out wall street for 700 billion while the rest of the country takes a bath - i'm sick of our government throwing around this kind of money for the fat cats and the war planners and then turning around and telling the american public - "oh, we can't help you - we're broke"
pay close attention to this - the gauntlet's been thrown down - does obama mean it, or is he just bluffing?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:01 PM on September 21, 2008
the first real test of the obama presidency is upon him already - is this just going to be talk or is he actually willing to lead the democrats in congress into a showdown with bush over this plan?
things could get very nasty quickly if this turns into a fight - and i don't like the idea of bailing out wall street for 700 billion while the rest of the country takes a bath - i'm sick of our government throwing around this kind of money for the fat cats and the war planners and then turning around and telling the american public - "oh, we can't help you - we're broke"
pay close attention to this - the gauntlet's been thrown down - does obama mean it, or is he just bluffing?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:01 PM on September 21, 2008
Alaskans Angered that Palin is Off-Limits (LA Times)
Even conservatives are expressing resentment over the governor's about-face on the Monegan investigation and the infiltration of state government by the McCain campaign.posted by scody at 12:05 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
"This Palin VP thing has Alaskans all stirred up. Much like Palin divided the Republican Party, she has managed to divide the state over her national candidacy," conservative talk-show host Dan Fagan complained in a commentary last week. [...] "No politician is so popular and charismatic that they should be above accountability and telling the truth."
By the way, would anyone here care to explain why Obama has so many "present" votes in the Illinois Senate?
Okay, here come the Rovian talking points, right on schedule.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:37 PM on September 21, 2008
Okay, here come the Rovian talking points, right on schedule.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:37 PM on September 21, 2008
George Will (!) on Stephanpoulous this AM: "John McCain showed his personality this week and it made some of us fearful."
ABC Panel Tears Into McCain: Not Presidential, Age Should Be An Issue
ABC Panel Tears Into McCain: Not Presidential, Age Should Be An Issue
“For John McCain, the panel discussion on This Week with George Stephanopoulos could not have been more brutal.posted by ericb at 1:42 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Minutes after conservative columnist George Will declared that the Senator was decidedly un-presidential is his unexpected call for the firing of SEC Chairman Chris Cox, Sam Donaldson, the long-time ABC hand, said that McCain's erratic message on the economy again raised questions about his age.
‘I suppose the McCain campaign's hope is that when there's a big crisis, people will go for age and experience,’ said Will. ‘The question is, who in this crisis looked more presidential, calm and un-flustered? It wasn't John McCain who, as usual, substituting vehemence for coherence, said 'let's fire somebody.' And picked one of the most experienced and conservative people in the administration, Chris Cox, and for no apparent reason... It was un-presidential behavior by a presidential candidate.’
Donaldson then jumped in: ‘It was two days after the he said the fundamentals of the economy were strong. His talking points have gotten all mixed up. And I think the question of age is back on the table.’
It should be noted that McCain's call for the firing of Cox was dismissed right off the bat, as the president does not have the authority to axe an SEC chairman. The criticisms that Donaldson raised concerned the fact that McCain started the week by touting the fundamentals of the economy, before pivoting into fits of populist mantra and calling for increased regulation of the markets - position at odds with McCain's traditional economic philosophies.
‘When I say age,’ he explained, ‘I don't know the difference between finding your talking points and not delivering the right ones, we have seen him do this frequently but this last week was the worst. Between two stops in Florida, as you say, he had to revise his thinking about what he wanted to say about the economy, wanted to feel the pain suddenly than say everything is great.’
The whole, painful, episode crested with Will leveling an even harsher blow.
‘John McCain showed his personality this week,’ said the writer and pundit, ‘and made some of us fearful.’”
The McCains have 13 cars (the Obamas have one).
The McCains have a private jet. The Palins have a private sea-plane. The Obamas don't have either.
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
The McCains have a private jet. The Palins have a private sea-plane. The Obamas don't have either.
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hello. It's your daily chronicle of the demise of the McCain/Palin candidacy:
Today, 25-30 thousand (yes, I said 25-30 thousand, and confirmed by fire officials, unlike the M/P crowd size lies) people showed up to try to see Barack Obama in . . . Charlotte. That would be Charlotte, North Carolina. 130 or so miles due west of konolia.
And Gallup shows Obama breaking 50 (to 44 for M/P) for the second time in a week.
You can watch Barack in Charlotte here. He lays out a seven point plan for the economic crisis, and rejects the blank check government bailout firmly.
That's a leader. And our next president.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:02 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Today, 25-30 thousand (yes, I said 25-30 thousand, and confirmed by fire officials, unlike the M/P crowd size lies) people showed up to try to see Barack Obama in . . . Charlotte. That would be Charlotte, North Carolina. 130 or so miles due west of konolia.
And Gallup shows Obama breaking 50 (to 44 for M/P) for the second time in a week.
You can watch Barack in Charlotte here. He lays out a seven point plan for the economic crisis, and rejects the blank check government bailout firmly.
That's a leader. And our next president.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:02 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Second, taxpayers shouldn’t be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
So Lehman collapsed but "key players" to get $2.5 billion in bonuses.
posted by ericb at 2:10 PM on September 21, 2008
So Lehman collapsed but "key players" to get $2.5 billion in bonuses.
posted by ericb at 2:10 PM on September 21, 2008
Bill Maher's got a good gag running:
FreeLevi.org
He's trying to spring Levi Johnston -- Bristol's ever so Christian baby daddy -- from a forced marriage.
LOL.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
FreeLevi.org
He's trying to spring Levi Johnston -- Bristol's ever so Christian baby daddy -- from a forced marriage.
LOL.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
But Washington also has to recognize that economic recovery requires that we act, not just to address the crisis on Wall Street, but also the crisis on Main Street and around kitchen tables across America.
Boehner: Treasury’s Bailout Package Should Help Only Wall Street, Not Main Street.
posted by ericb at 2:13 PM on September 21, 2008
Boehner: Treasury’s Bailout Package Should Help Only Wall Street, Not Main Street.
posted by ericb at 2:13 PM on September 21, 2008
Who is/are the elitist[s]?
We is! We is! Or at least I are.
See what makes ya an elitist is that you are intelligent, edumacated, and think "gut feelings" need to be backed up with facts before they become policies.
Oh, and we've got this silly old fashioned elitist notion of truth.
I guess we're not real Americans.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:14 PM on September 21, 2008
We is! We is! Or at least I are.
See what makes ya an elitist is that you are intelligent, edumacated, and think "gut feelings" need to be backed up with facts before they become policies.
Oh, and we've got this silly old fashioned elitist notion of truth.
I guess we're not real Americans.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:14 PM on September 21, 2008
Today, 25-30 thousand (yes, I said 25-30 thousand, and confirmed by fire officials, unlike the M/P crowd size lies) people showed up to try to see Barack Obama in . . . Charlotte.
They were probably all on their way to pick up McCain signs or something.
posted by drezdn at 2:16 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
They were probably all on their way to pick up McCain signs or something.
posted by drezdn at 2:16 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
He's trying to spring Levi Johnston -- Bristol's ever so Christian baby daddy -- from a forced marriage.
“What I took away from that is that the People Magazine spin about how excited the happy couple is about their upcoming nuptials and Levi's ‘Bristol’ finger tattoo is the Karl Rovian nonsense that anyone who thinks about it for a scintilla of a second intuitively knows that it is. If McCain-Palin lose, my easy bet is that there will be no nuptials. But if they win, the hand Levi dealt himself by having had the poor luck to knock up the daughter of the Vice President of the United States (at the time who could have known?) will have to be played out.posted by ericb at 2:18 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Pader Johnston has disconnected the Johnston family's land line. So I can't call him to ask what kind of deal he cut. But if Levi was my kid, the deal I would have cut would, at an absolute minimum, have been: $500,000 for from now to the November election. If McCain-Palin win, a $ 1 million signing bonus to take the trip down the aisle. Then, for the duration of the McCain-Palin administration, $100,000 a month for every month Mr. and Mrs. Johnston live under the same roof, and $50,000 a month for every month that they remain married but do not.
That's chump change for the RNC. And if, in the best case for the nation, it turns out to be only a $500,000 payday for sixty days of work, that's a life changing grubstake for an eighteen-year-old kid and more than enough to enable Levi to make his child support payments.”*
The McCains have a private jet.
Well, how else is John "Regular Guy" McCain going to travel efficiently between all his houses to fix all those leaky pipes? Sheesh.
Today, 25-30 thousand (yes, I said 25-30 thousand, and confirmed by fire officials, unlike the M/P crowd size lies) people showed up to try to see Barack Obama in . . . Charlotte. That would be Charlotte, North Carolina. 130 or so miles due west of konolia.
Feh. 25,000 polished, big-city snobs waving their CHARDONNAY WE CAN BELIEVE IN signs.
posted by scody at 2:20 PM on September 21, 2008 [5 favorites]
Well, how else is John "Regular Guy" McCain going to travel efficiently between all his houses to fix all those leaky pipes? Sheesh.
Today, 25-30 thousand (yes, I said 25-30 thousand, and confirmed by fire officials, unlike the M/P crowd size lies) people showed up to try to see Barack Obama in . . . Charlotte. That would be Charlotte, North Carolina. 130 or so miles due west of konolia.
Feh. 25,000 polished, big-city snobs waving their CHARDONNAY WE CAN BELIEVE IN signs.
posted by scody at 2:20 PM on September 21, 2008 [5 favorites]
This leads me to belive that she is a troll.
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC. On another blog I used to follow, there was a fellow who would post like konolia, basically sticking to RNC talking points in a rather detached way, and never seemed to get ruffled. He did seem to link to sources for factual information much more often than she does, but still, he would not really respond to the most difficult challenges to his talking points, but merely repeat arguments on the softer parts. Eventually, he checked out of the blog, not posting any more posts because he was going to Iraq on an administration-appointed post.
Does anyone know if the RNC (or DNC, for that matter) hires people to inhabit blogs such as this to push their talking points? I don't know if they do, or if they do whether konolia is such a creature, but I'm beginning to have a queasy feeling about the way she posts. She doesn't really seem interested in investigating or really defending her own positions, and merely seems to be pushing talking points that lurkers can use in less informed company to attempt to sway opinions. I'm sure she doesn't think that what she is saying here is swaying any of the people who actually comment.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:22 PM on September 21, 2008
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC. On another blog I used to follow, there was a fellow who would post like konolia, basically sticking to RNC talking points in a rather detached way, and never seemed to get ruffled. He did seem to link to sources for factual information much more often than she does, but still, he would not really respond to the most difficult challenges to his talking points, but merely repeat arguments on the softer parts. Eventually, he checked out of the blog, not posting any more posts because he was going to Iraq on an administration-appointed post.
Does anyone know if the RNC (or DNC, for that matter) hires people to inhabit blogs such as this to push their talking points? I don't know if they do, or if they do whether konolia is such a creature, but I'm beginning to have a queasy feeling about the way she posts. She doesn't really seem interested in investigating or really defending her own positions, and merely seems to be pushing talking points that lurkers can use in less informed company to attempt to sway opinions. I'm sure she doesn't think that what she is saying here is swaying any of the people who actually comment.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:22 PM on September 21, 2008
Does anyone know if the RNC (or DNC, for that matter) hires people to inhabit blogs such as this to push their talking points?
My long-held suspicion about MetaMan ("This account is disabled.").
Check out his illustrious posting history.
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on September 21, 2008
My long-held suspicion about MetaMan ("This account is disabled.").
Check out his illustrious posting history.
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on September 21, 2008
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC.
I've been saying that for a while in this thread. Yes, they do hire people -- or send volunteers -- out to do just what she's doing. They are all over the net.
The only thing that makes me doubt it is that she's a walking advertisement for everything wrong with the GOP. She isn't convincing anyone of anything here. And as several have said, this thread has become a great compendium of arguments and resources for Barack Obama supporters.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:28 PM on September 21, 2008
I've been saying that for a while in this thread. Yes, they do hire people -- or send volunteers -- out to do just what she's doing. They are all over the net.
The only thing that makes me doubt it is that she's a walking advertisement for everything wrong with the GOP. She isn't convincing anyone of anything here. And as several have said, this thread has become a great compendium of arguments and resources for Barack Obama supporters.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:28 PM on September 21, 2008
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC.
Hm ... maybe ... or maybe - and hear me out on this one - she just has no idea what the fuck she's talking about, and finds it easier to ignore direct questions and toss up red herrings than to engage in any sort of meaningful discussion. I'm just putting that out there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:31 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Hm ... maybe ... or maybe - and hear me out on this one - she just has no idea what the fuck she's talking about, and finds it easier to ignore direct questions and toss up red herrings than to engage in any sort of meaningful discussion. I'm just putting that out there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:31 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
She's not an RNC plant -- she joined as bunnyfire back in March of '01.
posted by sugarfish at 2:33 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by sugarfish at 2:33 PM on September 21, 2008
I'm beginning to have a queasy feeling about the way she posts
Nah, it's just her M.O.: random non sequiturs, outright lies, urban legends, the inability to stay on-topic or distinguish fact from fiction -- all wrapped up in leaps of logic that would get you kicked off a high school debate team -- have been her stock in trade for many years, on a refreshing variety of topics.
posted by scody at 2:34 PM on September 21, 2008
Nah, it's just her M.O.: random non sequiturs, outright lies, urban legends, the inability to stay on-topic or distinguish fact from fiction -- all wrapped up in leaps of logic that would get you kicked off a high school debate team -- have been her stock in trade for many years, on a refreshing variety of topics.
posted by scody at 2:34 PM on September 21, 2008
The Palins have a private sea-plane.
In all honesty, I don't think this is an unusual thing for an active, business-oriented family in the North or Coastal wildernesses. It's a tool of the trade.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:34 PM on September 21, 2008
In all honesty, I don't think this is an unusual thing for an active, business-oriented family in the North or Coastal wildernesses. It's a tool of the trade.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:34 PM on September 21, 2008
Anyway, let's stop talking about you know who. She said she left the thread. She's already been the subject of the thread for way too long.
She probably had to get to the Charlotte Obama rally today, anyway.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:45 PM on September 21, 2008
She probably had to get to the Charlotte Obama rally today, anyway.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:45 PM on September 21, 2008
In all honesty, I don't think this is an unusual thing for an active, business-oriented family in the North or Coastal wildernesses. It's a tool of the trad
When Palin was mayor, over 60 percent of Wasilla's residents lived below the Federal poverty line.
Planes aren't unusual in Alaska. People with money have them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2008
When Palin was mayor, over 60 percent of Wasilla's residents lived below the Federal poverty line.
Planes aren't unusual in Alaska. People with money have them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2008
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC.
[giggles]
The only thing konolia succeeds in accomplishing is a refutation of her lies and misrepresentations time and time and time and time again. She does noting but present talking points, links to discredited sources, absurd rumours, and denialist cheerleading.
If anything, she's an operative for Obama's geek team, assigned to get the facts repeated again and again on one of the web's biggest discussion-based communities. She's might be paid to placidly present inane statements; Miko to comprehensively refute them, and I to shout get out the vote on occasion.
Oh noes! Our cover is blown!
posted by five fresh fish at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2008
[giggles]
The only thing konolia succeeds in accomplishing is a refutation of her lies and misrepresentations time and time and time and time again. She does noting but present talking points, links to discredited sources, absurd rumours, and denialist cheerleading.
If anything, she's an operative for Obama's geek team, assigned to get the facts repeated again and again on one of the web's biggest discussion-based communities. She's might be paid to placidly present inane statements; Miko to comprehensively refute them, and I to shout get out the vote on occasion.
Oh noes! Our cover is blown!
posted by five fresh fish at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2008
Sorry, that's 67 percent of families.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:55 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:55 PM on September 21, 2008
If anything, she's an operative for Obama's geek team
Shhh.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:05 PM on September 21, 2008
Shhh.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:05 PM on September 21, 2008
HuffPo has video of "This Week" on ABC this morning, where George Will smacks down McCain as "unpresidential," Sam Donaldson raises the "question of age," and even Cokie (Shill) Roberts is forced to concede that voters trust Obama more -- and it hurts her to say it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/21/abc-panel-tears-into-mcca_n_128055.html
Wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:08 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/21/abc-panel-tears-into-mcca_n_128055.html
Wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:08 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm beginning to suspect she is an operative for the RNC.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
It's unbelievably stupid for Democrats to continually push people away when literally every vote will count.
Barring a visit from Jesus Himself to tell her otherwise, konolia's going to vote for the Republican candidate. And it doesn't matter one bit who that is, short of said candidate identifying himself as the Antichrist. She's a single-issue voter who votes against her own stated interest ON THAT ONE ISSUE (assuming, of course, that she wants to see the total number of abortions reduced.) Clearly, she is not going to be swayed by anything we say here.
So, if we're not going to convince her, why bother saying anything? In my own case, I believe that good speech is the answer to bad speech. If someone says something stupid about politics and society, he needs to be called out on it, if not for his own benefit then for the benefit of others.
Who is/are the elitist[s]?
I, for one, miss elitism. Of course, it used to be a big component of the Republican party. I don't see anything wrong with the notion that we should be led by our best and brightest. I don't want an "average Joe" as President. I don't care which candidate would be better at fixing his own plumbing, or which one I'd rather have a beer with.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:16 PM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
It's unbelievably stupid for Democrats to continually push people away when literally every vote will count.
Barring a visit from Jesus Himself to tell her otherwise, konolia's going to vote for the Republican candidate. And it doesn't matter one bit who that is, short of said candidate identifying himself as the Antichrist. She's a single-issue voter who votes against her own stated interest ON THAT ONE ISSUE (assuming, of course, that she wants to see the total number of abortions reduced.) Clearly, she is not going to be swayed by anything we say here.
So, if we're not going to convince her, why bother saying anything? In my own case, I believe that good speech is the answer to bad speech. If someone says something stupid about politics and society, he needs to be called out on it, if not for his own benefit then for the benefit of others.
Who is/are the elitist[s]?
I, for one, miss elitism. Of course, it used to be a big component of the Republican party. I don't see anything wrong with the notion that we should be led by our best and brightest. I don't want an "average Joe" as President. I don't care which candidate would be better at fixing his own plumbing, or which one I'd rather have a beer with.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:16 PM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
Have to say I'd rather have a beer with Barack than a four course meal with fine wine with McCain.
Any. Day.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:20 PM on September 21, 2008
Any. Day.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:20 PM on September 21, 2008
The McCains have 13 cars (the Obamas have one).
McCain lied about only buying American cars all his life.
posted by ericb at 3:36 PM on September 21, 2008
McCain lied about only buying American cars all his life.
posted by ericb at 3:36 PM on September 21, 2008
To put the current state of the election into obtuse sports metaphors. McCain is like the 5th starting pitcher on a baseball team. No one is terribly excited when he's throwing, but in this game he'd manage to get pretty deep into it while keeping the score close. In the past week, he's stopped throwing strikes and started throwing home runs and even some of the Republican media water carriers are starting to yell "take him out!"
Palin is like the star prospect at the AA level, not much experience, but a quick look at her stats led to a premature call up. She was throwing heat for a game or two, but since then hasn't been pitching that well.
Obama is the team Ace, who hit a bit of a rough patch in the middle of the season, but is regaining his sharp edge.
Biden is Jamie Moyer.
posted by drezdn at 3:41 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Palin is like the star prospect at the AA level, not much experience, but a quick look at her stats led to a premature call up. She was throwing heat for a game or two, but since then hasn't been pitching that well.
Obama is the team Ace, who hit a bit of a rough patch in the middle of the season, but is regaining his sharp edge.
Biden is Jamie Moyer.
posted by drezdn at 3:41 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
if we're not going to convince her, why bother saying anything?
And don't forget that for every MeFi poster, there are bunches of member and non-member lurkers (I couldn't venture to guess how many, but there are at least two in my personal life, and surely many more I know nothing of). People reading this thread may have started out on the fence, curious about Palin and maybe giving some serious consideration to supporting the GOP. The content of this thread is powerful enough to defuse some of that support.
We're never just talking to one poster if we're talking in a thread. There are a lot of people out there.
posted by Miko at 3:44 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
And don't forget that for every MeFi poster, there are bunches of member and non-member lurkers (I couldn't venture to guess how many, but there are at least two in my personal life, and surely many more I know nothing of). People reading this thread may have started out on the fence, curious about Palin and maybe giving some serious consideration to supporting the GOP. The content of this thread is powerful enough to defuse some of that support.
We're never just talking to one poster if we're talking in a thread. There are a lot of people out there.
posted by Miko at 3:44 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
McCain lied about only buying American cars all his life.
Well, the VW is made in Mexico (unlike Spain, actually is part of North America) and the Honda is made in Ohio and he's not sure if he bought his daughter's Prius or not. I think we can all relate to not being sure if we bought $20K car. But what he meant to say is he bought all of the cars at American car dealers and he was a POW.
posted by birdherder at 4:20 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, the VW is made in Mexico (unlike Spain, actually is part of North America) and the Honda is made in Ohio and he's not sure if he bought his daughter's Prius or not. I think we can all relate to not being sure if we bought $20K car. But what he meant to say is he bought all of the cars at American car dealers and he was a POW.
posted by birdherder at 4:20 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
I think McCain is more like Curt Schilling, waving his bloody sock and kvetching about Manny Ramirez while he's on the disabled list.
posted by lukemeister at 5:10 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by lukemeister at 5:10 PM on September 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Have to say I'd rather have a beer with Barack than a four course meal with fine wine with McCain.
You should go for that four course meal. If he gets elected, we'll all get fucked, but at least he bought you dinner first.
McCain lied about only buying American cars all his life.
I'd let that one slide. Many foreign brands are domestically made, and vice-versa. My spouse's last car was a Pontiac, built in Korea, based on a German design. Plus, even with American-made cars, many subsystems and assemblies are made overseas, and vice-versa.
Besides, I doubt he buys most of these cars directly. Isn't that what his wife's servants are for?
posted by me & my monkey at 5:21 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
You should go for that four course meal. If he gets elected, we'll all get fucked, but at least he bought you dinner first.
McCain lied about only buying American cars all his life.
I'd let that one slide. Many foreign brands are domestically made, and vice-versa. My spouse's last car was a Pontiac, built in Korea, based on a German design. Plus, even with American-made cars, many subsystems and assemblies are made overseas, and vice-versa.
Besides, I doubt he buys most of these cars directly. Isn't that what his wife's servants are for?
posted by me & my monkey at 5:21 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain lately, seems more like Luis Tiant than Curt Schilling.
Obama reminds me of Mariano Rivera. Cool, calm, collected, deadly in the last few innings.
Sarah Palin reminds me of some batboy who finds himself caught in a rundown.
Biden I can't place.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:35 PM on September 21, 2008
Obama reminds me of Mariano Rivera. Cool, calm, collected, deadly in the last few innings.
Sarah Palin reminds me of some batboy who finds himself caught in a rundown.
Biden I can't place.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:35 PM on September 21, 2008
Biden is Jamie Moyer.
Back in the mid 90's I worked at a team shop directly across the street from the Kingdome in Seattle. Befor and after the games, we would be as busy as one could possibly be, but during the game, we mostly just sat around eating sunflower seeds and shot the shit with the ticket scalpers. It was a pretty sweet gig. One day mid-game I'm sitting in front of the store having a smoke, and I see a guy standing on the curb in a Mariners uniform. I call one of my coworkers over, "Hey, is that Jamie Moyers? I thought he was starting today, shouldn't he be, I dunno, pitching or something?"
My coworker comes out and informs me that he just heard on the radio that Moyers came out of the game with some sort of injury. Sure enough it was Moyers in full uniform, just standing there. Then a car pulls around, and he gets in and they drive off.
Besides the fact that he was loitering outside the stadium in full uniform, the reason I remember that moment so clearly is that my co-worker says "That was his wife driving, she comes in the store every once in a while, nice lady" to which I responded, "Doesn't Moyer make like 2 million a year? If so, why are he and his wife driving around in 2 year old Honda Accord?"
I think Biden might actually be Jamie Moyers.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:41 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Back in the mid 90's I worked at a team shop directly across the street from the Kingdome in Seattle. Befor and after the games, we would be as busy as one could possibly be, but during the game, we mostly just sat around eating sunflower seeds and shot the shit with the ticket scalpers. It was a pretty sweet gig. One day mid-game I'm sitting in front of the store having a smoke, and I see a guy standing on the curb in a Mariners uniform. I call one of my coworkers over, "Hey, is that Jamie Moyers? I thought he was starting today, shouldn't he be, I dunno, pitching or something?"
My coworker comes out and informs me that he just heard on the radio that Moyers came out of the game with some sort of injury. Sure enough it was Moyers in full uniform, just standing there. Then a car pulls around, and he gets in and they drive off.
Besides the fact that he was loitering outside the stadium in full uniform, the reason I remember that moment so clearly is that my co-worker says "That was his wife driving, she comes in the store every once in a while, nice lady" to which I responded, "Doesn't Moyer make like 2 million a year? If so, why are he and his wife driving around in 2 year old Honda Accord?"
I think Biden might actually be Jamie Moyers.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:41 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Owen Matthews in Newsweek: Why Realists Are Worried About McCain.
Good article on the risky politicization of foreign affairs (Georgia is the case in point) by McCain.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:50 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Good article on the risky politicization of foreign affairs (Georgia is the case in point) by McCain.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:50 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
I know somebody payin' child support for one of his kids
His baby momma car and crib is bigger than his
You will see him on TV any given Sunday
Win the Superbowl and drive off in a Hyundai
(Kanye, Gold Digger)
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:53 PM on September 21, 2008
His baby momma car and crib is bigger than his
You will see him on TV any given Sunday
Win the Superbowl and drive off in a Hyundai
(Kanye, Gold Digger)
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:53 PM on September 21, 2008
Barack Obama's excellent 60 Minutes interview tonight: (CBS news video)
Part 1
Part 2
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:58 PM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
Part 1
Part 2
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:58 PM on September 21, 2008 [4 favorites]
In all seriousness, this thread breaks my heart. Konolia may not have the time to read every comment in this thread, and dammit neither do I, but I have, and every comment in the initial mammoth Palin thread. These comments, and the disconnect between them, is a catalog of hellfire. It has taken 12 billion years for this planet to achieve its current state, and the questing and suffering of our every innumerable ancestor to bring us to the present. And this, this, this, this abject failure of dialog, this is what we chose? All for nothing?
Brandon Blatcher I direct this at you. I resign sadly with others any hope for Konolia, who will not hear as she is heard. But you Brandon, while I appreciate the helpful mediating role you attempt, and that you strive to be reasonable, you do yourself and everyone a great disservice to only "channel", to express views you refuse to stand behind. These are times of enormous significance and consequence, and the future of your children and the honor of your ancestors deserve so much more. In all seriousness.
posted by kaspen at 6:21 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher I direct this at you. I resign sadly with others any hope for Konolia, who will not hear as she is heard. But you Brandon, while I appreciate the helpful mediating role you attempt, and that you strive to be reasonable, you do yourself and everyone a great disservice to only "channel", to express views you refuse to stand behind. These are times of enormous significance and consequence, and the future of your children and the honor of your ancestors deserve so much more. In all seriousness.
posted by kaspen at 6:21 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'd like to make an extended comment about Brandon Blatcher's role as a simultaneously annoying yet helpful sound absorption wall in ye olde echo chamber. About how I think it's an important function to keep people from repeating any agreed-upon mistakes of previous campaigns in 2000 & 2004, even if he seems to do that without acknowledging enough the maddening trolling and antimetafilterestablishmentarianism (information and facts, links) of the one he was channeling.
But I'm not, because the subject is the straight talk express veering off the road and now plowing through people's homes and lives. So with regard to McCain's campaign, he referenced Adam Smith and Social Contract theory tonight. I'm not up on my Smith enough to have known without doing a search, if his reference was correct, or if it didn't really make sense.
Also, I still wonder about the green screen debacle - did they ever talk about that little bit of stupidity?
posted by cashman at 6:41 PM on September 21, 2008
But I'm not, because the subject is the straight talk express veering off the road and now plowing through people's homes and lives. So with regard to McCain's campaign, he referenced Adam Smith and Social Contract theory tonight. I'm not up on my Smith enough to have known without doing a search, if his reference was correct, or if it didn't really make sense.
Also, I still wonder about the green screen debacle - did they ever talk about that little bit of stupidity?
posted by cashman at 6:41 PM on September 21, 2008
What?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on September 21, 2008 [3 favorites]
Palin is like the star prospect at the AA level, not much experience, but a quick look at her stats led to a premature call up. She was throwing heat for a game or two, but since then hasn't been pitching that well.
...
Sarah Palin reminds me of some batboy who finds himself caught in a rundown.
No, no, no, no.
Palin is Joba Chamberlain. Shows up with great flash, but there are all these rules around him -- only in the 7th, only two batters, etc. But he's a celebrity in a hurry. It eventually leads to all these questions about whether he should be coming out of the pen or starting, even with all the weird rules.
Eventually, after screaming in the press from "The Boss," they start him. In his 12th start, he starts to pitch poorly in Texas, and eventually waves over the trainer, who yanks him from the game. Next thing you hear is he's on his way to Dr. Andrews down in Birmingham for an injury the Yankees weren't very public about. He's back in the pen now and likely will remain there for a while to come.
I think, eventually, Palin's popularity will lead someone to try and "start" her, and it won't be pretty.
As for the others, much as I hate to say it, I kinda see McCain as Jamie Moyer. His career started late and there's no reason he should still be going. Obama is Greg Maddux -- incredible control pitcher, though people got on him for years for not being a power guy. Biden... I don't know. Terry Mulholland? Someone who hung around a long time as a pitcher, even starting late in his career.
posted by dw at 7:52 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
...
Sarah Palin reminds me of some batboy who finds himself caught in a rundown.
No, no, no, no.
Palin is Joba Chamberlain. Shows up with great flash, but there are all these rules around him -- only in the 7th, only two batters, etc. But he's a celebrity in a hurry. It eventually leads to all these questions about whether he should be coming out of the pen or starting, even with all the weird rules.
Eventually, after screaming in the press from "The Boss," they start him. In his 12th start, he starts to pitch poorly in Texas, and eventually waves over the trainer, who yanks him from the game. Next thing you hear is he's on his way to Dr. Andrews down in Birmingham for an injury the Yankees weren't very public about. He's back in the pen now and likely will remain there for a while to come.
I think, eventually, Palin's popularity will lead someone to try and "start" her, and it won't be pretty.
As for the others, much as I hate to say it, I kinda see McCain as Jamie Moyer. His career started late and there's no reason he should still be going. Obama is Greg Maddux -- incredible control pitcher, though people got on him for years for not being a power guy. Biden... I don't know. Terry Mulholland? Someone who hung around a long time as a pitcher, even starting late in his career.
posted by dw at 7:52 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
I should just explain the Luis Tiant comparison: McCain keeps throwing crazy breaking shit that sometimes fools the batter, but most of the time is out of the zone, and is likely to bring a runner in from third on a wild pitch.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:02 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:02 PM on September 21, 2008
The McCain and Obama 60 Minutes interviews were pretty interesting. I really enjoyed it when McCain included among Palin's qualifications being governnor of the "largest state geographically", but was puzzled by telling the country that being handed the dogtags of a soldier killed in action was "what being president is all about". What? Jesus, as sure as hell hope not. I thought Obama's follow-up was strong, especially as how he was able to respond to things McCain had just brought up in his own interview - regarding the "old boy network", taxes, and the surge (even though McCain had of course discussed these things before this interview). It definitely helps to be the headlining act, but I think the strongest aspect was giving Americans a clear outline of action for his first days in office on the economy, Iraq and health care. From McCain? OK, he'll move the political officer out of the White House - great. But apart from the hypothetical "If the president could replace the SEC chairman, I'd pick Cuomo" input, there wasn't a lot there. And justifying not giving middle class Americans a bigger tax cut because he doesn't want to raise taxes on people making more than $250K? Not a good selling point.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:05 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:05 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
If we're going to make comparisons to hitters, I'm just hoping Biden is the Democratic equivalent of Craig Counsell.
posted by drezdn at 8:44 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by drezdn at 8:44 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin is Nuke LaLoosh. "Another new league record! In addition he hit the sportswriter, the public address announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:20 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 9:20 PM on September 21, 2008
Brandon Blatcher is OK by me. As I read it, he is merely suggesting we be open minded, generous, and as inclusive as possible. All good things. And he urges us to learn from past mistakes. Nothing wrong with that.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:28 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by madamjujujive at 9:28 PM on September 21, 2008
I should just explain the Luis Tiant comparison: McCain keeps throwing crazy breaking shit that sometimes fools the batter, but most of the time is out of the zone, and is likely to bring a runner in from third on a wild pitch.
Then why not compare him to Nolan Ryan? A very good to great pitcher who is overhyped by the average fan. His record for career K's will likely never be touched (5714), but neither will his career BBs record (2795, almost 1000 ahead of Steve Carlton at #2 and well over 1200 ahead of the active leader Tom Glavine) or his career WP record (277, 51 ahead of the only other post-WWII with more than 220, Phil Niekro... a knuckleballer).
Ryan was a very, very, very good pitcher, no doubt. But seventh game of the World Series, which pitcher who peaked in the 1970s would you rather have starting on the mound -- Ryan or Tom Seaver? Ryan or Steve Carlton? Ryan or Jim Palmer? Ryan or Cathfish Hunter?
posted by dw at 9:32 PM on September 21, 2008
Then why not compare him to Nolan Ryan? A very good to great pitcher who is overhyped by the average fan. His record for career K's will likely never be touched (5714), but neither will his career BBs record (2795, almost 1000 ahead of Steve Carlton at #2 and well over 1200 ahead of the active leader Tom Glavine) or his career WP record (277, 51 ahead of the only other post-WWII with more than 220, Phil Niekro... a knuckleballer).
Ryan was a very, very, very good pitcher, no doubt. But seventh game of the World Series, which pitcher who peaked in the 1970s would you rather have starting on the mound -- Ryan or Tom Seaver? Ryan or Steve Carlton? Ryan or Jim Palmer? Ryan or Cathfish Hunter?
posted by dw at 9:32 PM on September 21, 2008
Comparing Sarah Palin to any pitcher or hitter talented enough to make it to the show is nuts. She is an A-league player who is small enough to be put in as a pinch-hitter when they need a walk.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:12 PM on September 21, 2008
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:12 PM on September 21, 2008
Interesting take on the religious right and their stance on the environment, polar bears, and creationism. And how John McCain and Sarah Palin fit into all of it.
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:40 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:40 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Comparing Sarah Palin to any pitcher or hitter talented enough to make it to the show is nuts. She is an A-league player who is small enough to be put in as a pinch-hitter when they need a walk.
Don't kid yourself: She wouldn't be on that ticket if she didn't have talent. She might be only the fan favorite vastly overrated scrappy utility player, but she still has talent.
posted by dw at 11:10 PM on September 21, 2008
Don't kid yourself: She wouldn't be on that ticket if she didn't have talent. She might be only the fan favorite vastly overrated scrappy utility player, but she still has talent.
posted by dw at 11:10 PM on September 21, 2008
Sarah Palin is Milli Vanilli. Really big splash initially (even though people with any musical taste were all WTF, this sucks right from day one), basically just one hit and nothing else. Picked purely on outward physical appearance based on what the big suits thought would sell because "people think they look cool". When it turns out they have no talent whatsoever the producers and execs fill them with fake stuff made by other people. After a lot of questioning and doubt, eventually they are forced to face the public... and turns out they can hardly speak English, let alone perform as initially advertised.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:51 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 11:51 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
The McCains have a private jet.
Well, duh. Didn't you know about Arizona? "The only way to get around is by small private plane."
posted by zardoz at 2:14 AM on September 22, 2008
Well, duh. Didn't you know about Arizona? "The only way to get around is by small private plane."
posted by zardoz at 2:14 AM on September 22, 2008
Do you think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President? - so far, the ayes have it - on PBS, no less. Must be getting freep'd.
posted by madamjujujive at 3:32 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by madamjujujive at 3:32 AM on September 22, 2008
madam, I've noticed a lot of Palin pumping (so to speak) on various completely non-political boards and blogs I visit in the last day or so. Probably more of the same.
posted by maxwelton at 3:52 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by maxwelton at 3:52 AM on September 22, 2008
It came to me in my dreams last night: the wall street bailout that asks taxpayers to cover the losses of investment banks is like Wasilla asking victims of sexual assault to pay for their own rape kits.
That could be useful as an analogy.
As for Palin, I still say Tiant. Because he was so oblivious to any criticism.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:06 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
That could be useful as an analogy.
As for Palin, I still say Tiant. Because he was so oblivious to any criticism.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:06 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
And because he was fucking crazy.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:08 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:08 AM on September 22, 2008
Do you think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President? - so far, the ayes have it - on PBS, no less. Must be getting freep'd.
To my knowledge, Sarah Palin is more than 34 years old, is a natural born citizen and been a resident of the U.S. for more than 14 years. This makes her qualified to be President.
I definitely think this is the wrong question to be asking.
posted by psmealey at 5:17 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
To my knowledge, Sarah Palin is more than 34 years old, is a natural born citizen and been a resident of the U.S. for more than 14 years. This makes her qualified to be President.
I definitely think this is the wrong question to be asking.
posted by psmealey at 5:17 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
fourcheesemac: Close, but in those instances it is assumed that the evidence collected in a rape kit would be used to prosecute the rapist. In a wall street bailout I've heard no such proposals to even slap these guys on the hand.
posted by like_neon at 5:21 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by like_neon at 5:21 AM on September 22, 2008
would be used to prosecute the rapist.
Probably not, in Wasilla. They would use it to prosecute the victim, somehow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:36 AM on September 22, 2008
Probably not, in Wasilla. They would use it to prosecute the victim, somehow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:36 AM on September 22, 2008
McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis, was paid more than 2 million dollars as a lobbyist for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. (NY Times)
Wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 AM on September 22, 2008
Wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 AM on September 22, 2008
Another casual McCain lie: on 60 minutes, when asked where he'd lived the longest (an obvious set up, and obviously a question McCain was prepared in advance to answer), McCain looked down and said "Hanoi." Oh, did he forget to remind us he was a POW?
Bullshit. He's been the senator from Arizona for 26 years. That means he's been a resident of Arizona for that long, and has lived in Arizona and/or Washington DC (or rather both) for 26 years. He spent 5 years as a POW.
Amazing. He just opens his mouth and lies on national TV, over and over again.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:50 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bullshit. He's been the senator from Arizona for 26 years. That means he's been a resident of Arizona for that long, and has lived in Arizona and/or Washington DC (or rather both) for 26 years. He spent 5 years as a POW.
Amazing. He just opens his mouth and lies on national TV, over and over again.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:50 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
he is merely suggesting we be open minded, generous, and as inclusive as possible.
Yeah.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2008
Yeah.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2008
Sometimes you can take it too far though, where you are giving credence to ridiculous points of view.
posted by cashman at 6:07 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by cashman at 6:07 AM on September 22, 2008
Bullshit. He's been the senator from Arizona for 26 years. That means he's been a resident of Arizona for that long, and has lived in Arizona and/or Washington DC (or rather both) for 26 years. He spent 5 years as a POW.
Quite obviously a metaphor: 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton are longer than 26 years in Arizona/Washington.
Isn't that what he meant to say?
posted by sour cream at 6:10 AM on September 22, 2008
Quite obviously a metaphor: 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton are longer than 26 years in Arizona/Washington.
Isn't that what he meant to say?
posted by sour cream at 6:10 AM on September 22, 2008
Did McCain Presidential Campaign Violate Finance Laws with Southeast Asia Trip?
posted by mothershock at 6:16 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by mothershock at 6:16 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think McCain meant that with 8 houses (or whatever it is), he's spent less time in each house than he did in Hanoi.
posted by lukemeister at 6:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by lukemeister at 6:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Bullshit. He's been the senator from Arizona for 26 years. That means he's been a resident of Arizona for that long, and has lived in Arizona and/or Washington DC (or rather both) for 26 years. He spent 5 years as a POW.
Time in a box as a POW is measure in dog years so he's spent close to 40 years in Hanoi.
Seriously, that is a stupid question. It just seems to be a set up for "can you remind us again you're a former POW?" McCain dilutes the meaning of being a POW every time he does this shit. If I were a former POW I would be pissed he uses it as a prop like Rudy does with 9/11.
posted by birdherder at 6:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Time in a box as a POW is measure in dog years so he's spent close to 40 years in Hanoi.
Seriously, that is a stupid question. It just seems to be a set up for "can you remind us again you're a former POW?" McCain dilutes the meaning of being a POW every time he does this shit. If I were a former POW I would be pissed he uses it as a prop like Rudy does with 9/11.
posted by birdherder at 6:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Palin = Bobby Sprowl - appropriately, almost exactly 30 years after the Boston Massacre (Red Sox fans may commence weeping).
posted by hangashore at 6:42 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by hangashore at 6:42 AM on September 22, 2008
McCain lately, seems more like Luis Tiant
Don't talk about El Tiante like that. Just don't.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:16 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Don't talk about El Tiante like that. Just don't.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:16 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sometimes you can take it too far though, where you are giving credence to ridiculous points of view.
Funny, I thought it was basic humanity to give respect to a person's views, even if you don agree with them
You guys argued with konolia for the past several weeks and didn't make the slightest headway, since both sides were speaking their own language and refusing to listen to the other. I hoped by explaining her point of view, you might be able to have better conversations with her about the subject.
Instead, you're continuing the name calling. Many of you have professed to be tired of partisan politics, yet when the chips were down in this and the other thread, you're reduced to flinging juvenile names with a self righteous tone because she isn't doing what you want her to, which is no surprise.
I do not agree with konolia, but I'd like to think we could discuss this in a civil fashion, preferably over barbecue, and walk away from the conversation with plans to do it again sometime instead "those people are shit, I can't deal with THEM, fuck'em."
As to konolia, it's been pretty obvious to me that she's working from her gut with these opinions, and that's fine, lots of people do that, on a variety of subjects. Flinging facts at people when they're doing this doesn't always work and it clearly wasn't working and has never worked with her. So why continue on that tract? Wouldn't it be smarter to come at from a different approach as opposed to continually trying to fit that square peg in round hole?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Funny, I thought it was basic humanity to give respect to a person's views, even if you don agree with them
You guys argued with konolia for the past several weeks and didn't make the slightest headway, since both sides were speaking their own language and refusing to listen to the other. I hoped by explaining her point of view, you might be able to have better conversations with her about the subject.
Instead, you're continuing the name calling. Many of you have professed to be tired of partisan politics, yet when the chips were down in this and the other thread, you're reduced to flinging juvenile names with a self righteous tone because she isn't doing what you want her to, which is no surprise.
I do not agree with konolia, but I'd like to think we could discuss this in a civil fashion, preferably over barbecue, and walk away from the conversation with plans to do it again sometime instead "those people are shit, I can't deal with THEM, fuck'em."
As to konolia, it's been pretty obvious to me that she's working from her gut with these opinions, and that's fine, lots of people do that, on a variety of subjects. Flinging facts at people when they're doing this doesn't always work and it clearly wasn't working and has never worked with her. So why continue on that tract? Wouldn't it be smarter to come at from a different approach as opposed to continually trying to fit that square peg in round hole?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hoped by explaining her point of view...
What you're failing to realize is that people are frustrated that konolia was never able to do this, despite repeated polite requests that she do so.
posted by tractorfeed at 8:23 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
What you're failing to realize is that people are frustrated that konolia was never able to do this, despite repeated polite requests that she do so.
posted by tractorfeed at 8:23 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain lately, seems more like Luis Tiant
Dude! Luis Tiant is the exemplar of the classic era of 1970s baseball when many players had awesome muttonchops and porn mustaches. Do not ruin that for me by linking it with McCain! Besides, Tiant had style. He could pitch a fastball while damn near wrapping his leg around his head. You can't do that with steroids.
posted by jonp72 at 8:29 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Dude! Luis Tiant is the exemplar of the classic era of 1970s baseball when many players had awesome muttonchops and porn mustaches. Do not ruin that for me by linking it with McCain! Besides, Tiant had style. He could pitch a fastball while damn near wrapping his leg around his head. You can't do that with steroids.
posted by jonp72 at 8:29 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
BB, I agree with the spirit of your argument, to some extent, and I fully agree that labeling someone like konolia a troll is a cheap -- and lazy -- shot to take at someone with whom you don't agree.
My issue, though, is this: konolia has been asked a zillion times to bring something of substance to the conversation, and she doesn't. Furthermore, she's demonstrated on numerous occasions that in the political world, everything boils down to abortion. That subject is more important to her than anything else, and she will either vote for the candidate who professes to be pro-life or just stay home.
How can you possibly have a rational dialogue with someone who deals in absolutes like that? Reasoned discourse requires the ability to see nuances and shades of gray in every situation, and from what I've seen, both here and in private MeMail, all conversations with Konolia will wind up on the subject of abortion. I've tried to engage her in a non-combative way on this stuff, but it inevitably came back to her black/white pro-life/anti-choice stance, and I just can't stomach another go-around on that Mobius strip.
I would love it, absolutely love it, for someone with conservative views to engage us here with reason and facts and such, because arguing with emotion is just so pointless and subjective. I really wanted konolia to fight back with something more than her gut feelings, and, much to my disappointment, it's pretty clear that ain't gonna happen.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
My issue, though, is this: konolia has been asked a zillion times to bring something of substance to the conversation, and she doesn't. Furthermore, she's demonstrated on numerous occasions that in the political world, everything boils down to abortion. That subject is more important to her than anything else, and she will either vote for the candidate who professes to be pro-life or just stay home.
How can you possibly have a rational dialogue with someone who deals in absolutes like that? Reasoned discourse requires the ability to see nuances and shades of gray in every situation, and from what I've seen, both here and in private MeMail, all conversations with Konolia will wind up on the subject of abortion. I've tried to engage her in a non-combative way on this stuff, but it inevitably came back to her black/white pro-life/anti-choice stance, and I just can't stomach another go-around on that Mobius strip.
I would love it, absolutely love it, for someone with conservative views to engage us here with reason and facts and such, because arguing with emotion is just so pointless and subjective. I really wanted konolia to fight back with something more than her gut feelings, and, much to my disappointment, it's pretty clear that ain't gonna happen.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:30 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
it's been pretty obvious to me that she's working from her gut with these opinions, and that's fine.
Is this site about ignoring facts, links and research and "working from your gut"?
posted by cashman at 8:41 AM on September 22, 2008
Is this site about ignoring facts, links and research and "working from your gut"?
posted by cashman at 8:41 AM on September 22, 2008
Is this site about ignoring facts, links and research and "working from your gut"?
No, that's MetaTalk.
posted by lukemeister at 8:53 AM on September 22, 2008
No, that's MetaTalk.
posted by lukemeister at 8:53 AM on September 22, 2008
How can you possibly have a rational dialogue with someone who deals in absolutes like that? Reasoned discourse requires the ability to see nuances and shades of gray in every situation...
You can't. Witness the 2000 and 2004 elections.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:59 AM on September 22, 2008
You can't. Witness the 2000 and 2004 elections.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:59 AM on September 22, 2008
You guys argued with konolia for the past several weeks and didn't make the slightest headway, since both sides were speaking their own language and refusing to listen to the other. I hoped by explaining her point of view, you might be able to have better conversations with her about the subject.
There's a homeless guy on the street outside my office here. He's clearly batshit insane. Perhaps if you explained his point of view to me, I might be able to have better conversations with him? No? Exactly.
No one here is going to convince konolia of anything. AND THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is to shine a light on the darkness, for others to see.
Wouldn't it be smarter to come at from a different approach as opposed to continually trying to fit that square peg in round hole?
Maybe if we knew konolia outside of Metafilter. But we (or at least I) don't. The best we can do here is to provide arguments buttressed by facts.
And because I don't know konolia outside of here, I have no compunction about calling her out on her dissembling ways. If she just said, fine, I'm going to vote Republican just because of abortion, and nothing else, well then that's the end of that discussion.* But she doesn't. Instead, she goes through all these other rationalizations first - Obama's naive, Palin is qualified, etc, etc. As each gets shot down in turn by facts, she just moves on to the next. That behavior is worthy of a little name-calling. And being called names is a bit less serious than the theocratic government she wants to foist on us.
*Putting aside, for now, whether Republican social policies result in more abortions than Democratic policies.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:00 AM on September 22, 2008 [8 favorites]
There's a homeless guy on the street outside my office here. He's clearly batshit insane. Perhaps if you explained his point of view to me, I might be able to have better conversations with him? No? Exactly.
No one here is going to convince konolia of anything. AND THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is to shine a light on the darkness, for others to see.
Wouldn't it be smarter to come at from a different approach as opposed to continually trying to fit that square peg in round hole?
Maybe if we knew konolia outside of Metafilter. But we (or at least I) don't. The best we can do here is to provide arguments buttressed by facts.
And because I don't know konolia outside of here, I have no compunction about calling her out on her dissembling ways. If she just said, fine, I'm going to vote Republican just because of abortion, and nothing else, well then that's the end of that discussion.* But she doesn't. Instead, she goes through all these other rationalizations first - Obama's naive, Palin is qualified, etc, etc. As each gets shot down in turn by facts, she just moves on to the next. That behavior is worthy of a little name-calling. And being called names is a bit less serious than the theocratic government she wants to foist on us.
*Putting aside, for now, whether Republican social policies result in more abortions than Democratic policies.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:00 AM on September 22, 2008 [8 favorites]
Washington Post:
"Mr. McCain's selection of an inexperienced and relatively unknown figure was unsettling, and the campaign's decision to keep her sequestered from serious interchanges with reporters and voters serves only to deepen the unease. Mr. McCain is entitled to choose the person he thinks would be best for the job. He is not entitled to keep the public from being able to make an informed assessment of that judgment. Ms. Palin's speech-making skills are impressive, but the more she repeats the same stump speech lines, the queasier we get. Nor have her answers to the gentle questioning she has encountered provided any confidence that Ms. Palin has a grasp of the issues."posted by ericb at 9:00 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
New Obama ad: McCain wants to deregulate health care just as he and others did to the financial markets [video].
posted by ericb at 9:02 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by ericb at 9:02 AM on September 22, 2008
Back to Palin: CNN finally picks up the rape kit story.
posted by scody at 9:05 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by scody at 9:05 AM on September 22, 2008
So why continue on that tract? Wouldn't it be smarter to come at from a different approach...?
It depends on what your goal is. If your goal were to convince her to adopt your point, you're right, a different tak would have been appropriate. But that was never my goal, since I recognize that konolia's political stance is determined by one or two issues of social conservatism that are unlikely to change. My goal was therefore to get her other talking points off the table, showing their weakness or lack of substance, so that she would eventually have to confine herself to commenting about only her own views on abortion, which she can authentically defend. This is important to me because it's vital to get beyond sound-bite politicking to authentic conversation about issues. Refuting positions which cannot be supported is one step toward getting to positions which can be supported.
At the same time, my goal in responding to each talking point was to present a fact-based argument that can be used in the broader discourse over the issues with reasonable people whose votes are not already decided. they are indeed useful. Emotion and image are important tools of politics, but without facts and evidence, they are ultimately empty. I've found in canvassing that I need to know my stuff, because people who are considering crossing party lines to vote do ask for specifics.
I endorse your general message of respect, and I try.
posted by Miko at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
It depends on what your goal is. If your goal were to convince her to adopt your point, you're right, a different tak would have been appropriate. But that was never my goal, since I recognize that konolia's political stance is determined by one or two issues of social conservatism that are unlikely to change. My goal was therefore to get her other talking points off the table, showing their weakness or lack of substance, so that she would eventually have to confine herself to commenting about only her own views on abortion, which she can authentically defend. This is important to me because it's vital to get beyond sound-bite politicking to authentic conversation about issues. Refuting positions which cannot be supported is one step toward getting to positions which can be supported.
At the same time, my goal in responding to each talking point was to present a fact-based argument that can be used in the broader discourse over the issues with reasonable people whose votes are not already decided. they are indeed useful. Emotion and image are important tools of politics, but without facts and evidence, they are ultimately empty. I've found in canvassing that I need to know my stuff, because people who are considering crossing party lines to vote do ask for specifics.
I endorse your general message of respect, and I try.
posted by Miko at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
Why should we take konolia's word for it that she "represents" whatever she says she represents? Many of my posts in this thread have been about arguing the opposite, that she represents a very clear minority of politically active conservatives who exist everywhere, but don't deserve the right to claim American identity or our common political symbols and narratives for themselves.
To assume that rural or small town America is full of konolias is the kind of stereotyping I'm opposing, not the stereotyping of konolia herself -- she has effectively insisted on being stereotyped as a GOP activist and an abortion wingnut. Her kind is a minority in the US *and* in small town, rural America, and even among Republicans and religious Americans. She drags all these groups behind her when she struts in here to wave her conservative martyrdom flag, but she's as full of BS about that as she is about most of her arguments and anecdotes. I know Small Town America. Small Town Americans are friends of mine. And konolia is NOT small town America, any more than any one person could be. But even as a type.
She's baiting us to say things that she can then interpret as elitist slams on "real Americans," as if none of us could claim to be that. She is creating arguments by self-fulfilling prophecy. But we can expose the method, which is the careful use of non sequitur, exaggeration, outright deception, the bearing of false witness, and when all else fails the reductio ad absurdam of the bloody shirt of a fictional abortion scenario.
People who say "Barack Obama is in favor of killing babies" are either lying scumbags, addled cultists, or mentally deranged. They have no sense of reality, or they do and it doesn't suit them to acknowledge it. Whatever.
Those people are a minority. We cannot convince them. But we already do outnumber them. And we can expose their bullshit and refuse to grant to them their claim of "silent majority" status when they represent no such majority.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2008 [6 favorites]
To assume that rural or small town America is full of konolias is the kind of stereotyping I'm opposing, not the stereotyping of konolia herself -- she has effectively insisted on being stereotyped as a GOP activist and an abortion wingnut. Her kind is a minority in the US *and* in small town, rural America, and even among Republicans and religious Americans. She drags all these groups behind her when she struts in here to wave her conservative martyrdom flag, but she's as full of BS about that as she is about most of her arguments and anecdotes. I know Small Town America. Small Town Americans are friends of mine. And konolia is NOT small town America, any more than any one person could be. But even as a type.
She's baiting us to say things that she can then interpret as elitist slams on "real Americans," as if none of us could claim to be that. She is creating arguments by self-fulfilling prophecy. But we can expose the method, which is the careful use of non sequitur, exaggeration, outright deception, the bearing of false witness, and when all else fails the reductio ad absurdam of the bloody shirt of a fictional abortion scenario.
People who say "Barack Obama is in favor of killing babies" are either lying scumbags, addled cultists, or mentally deranged. They have no sense of reality, or they do and it doesn't suit them to acknowledge it. Whatever.
Those people are a minority. We cannot convince them. But we already do outnumber them. And we can expose their bullshit and refuse to grant to them their claim of "silent majority" status when they represent no such majority.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2008 [6 favorites]
Put it this way: North Carolina is currently a dead heat. So presumably everyone supporting Barack Obama does not think he is in favor of killing babies. The other 50 percent certainly does not support McCain, en masse, because they think Obama is in favor of killing babies. I'd guess that at most -- at very most, in the South -- half of McCain's support comes from people for whom anti-Choice ideology is a litmus test issue, and even they don't really trust McCain. And not all of them live in rural areas or small towns -- indeed, my informed bet is that most live in suburban communities and work in cities.
So let's say konolia, very generously, represents the 25 percent of Americans that still support Bush. We will never convince those people to join the movement away from Bushism, or some significant number of them. We call them "wingnuts" for a reason -- they're fucking crazy.
We need to call them out, not appease them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:22 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
So let's say konolia, very generously, represents the 25 percent of Americans that still support Bush. We will never convince those people to join the movement away from Bushism, or some significant number of them. We call them "wingnuts" for a reason -- they're fucking crazy.
We need to call them out, not appease them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:22 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
forgot --
while not ceding to them the mantle of "Real Americans."
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:23 AM on September 22, 2008
while not ceding to them the mantle of "Real Americans."
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:23 AM on September 22, 2008
...represents the 25 percent of Americans that still support Bush
Bush's overall approval rating is now at 19%.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bush's overall approval rating is now at 19%.
Among all Americans, 19% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 76% disapprove.Heckuva job, Bushie!
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Awesome. That has to be a historical record!
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:32 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:32 AM on September 22, 2008
Do you think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President? - so far, the ayes have it - on PBS, no less. Must be getting freep'd.
Difference of opinion about what it takes to be President: competence vs. talking points.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:34 AM on September 22, 2008
Difference of opinion about what it takes to be President: competence vs. talking points.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:34 AM on September 22, 2008
Do you think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President? - so far, the ayes have it - on PBS, no less. Must be getting freep'd.
It is. I just heard from a friend who indicates the Right has coordinated an e-mail campaign to bump that (non-scientific) survey to Palin's favor.
posted by ericb at 9:38 AM on September 22, 2008
It is. I just heard from a friend who indicates the Right has coordinated an e-mail campaign to bump that (non-scientific) survey to Palin's favor.
posted by ericb at 9:38 AM on September 22, 2008
Diarist rubthorn has a nice piece on dailyKos today about Obama organizing in . . .
Fayeteville, NC!
There we learn:
My family moved here from Waukegan, Illinois on January 2, 1974, and since that time, my county has voted for the "other side" in all Presidential elections. The good news...As of August 31, 2008, the Obama campaign has registered over 100,000 new voters in my area! This is a 9.7% increase - higher than the state's increase in new registered voters (7.3%) Hallelujah! Follow me please . . .
This portends well for our candidate. The Republicans have new voter registrations of 51,000 and Independents 45,000! The Democratic Party has registered more than the Independent and Republican parties combined this cycle!
So for everyone Mr. konolia registered at those gun shows, the Democratic party was registering two more Democrats in konolia's home town.
I rest my case.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:39 AM on September 22, 2008
Fayeteville, NC!
There we learn:
My family moved here from Waukegan, Illinois on January 2, 1974, and since that time, my county has voted for the "other side" in all Presidential elections. The good news...As of August 31, 2008, the Obama campaign has registered over 100,000 new voters in my area! This is a 9.7% increase - higher than the state's increase in new registered voters (7.3%) Hallelujah! Follow me please . . .
This portends well for our candidate. The Republicans have new voter registrations of 51,000 and Independents 45,000! The Democratic Party has registered more than the Independent and Republican parties combined this cycle!
So for everyone Mr. konolia registered at those gun shows, the Democratic party was registering two more Democrats in konolia's home town.
I rest my case.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:39 AM on September 22, 2008
SurveyUSA new poll out today shows Obama up 6 in Virginia. In Virginia.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:43 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:43 AM on September 22, 2008
Did you know that the New York Times is "pro-Obama" and "not today by any standard a journalistic organization"? It must be true, because the McCain campaign said so!
From the TPM link above:
The McCain campaign is going on the attack against the New York Times for reporting that campaign manger Rick Davis was paid almost $2 million as head of a lobbying organization that represented Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. . . . On a conference call with reporters today, Davis said only that he was involved in an effort to promote the cause of home-ownership -- but that he wasn't actually a lobbyist. . . . Then Steve Schmidt, the campaign's chief operating officer, aggressively took on the Times. "Whatever the New York Times once was, it is not today by any standard a journalistic organization," Schmidt said. "It is a pro-Obama organization that every day attacks Senator McCain, attacks Governor Palin, and excuses Senator Obama."
posted by mothershock at 9:47 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
From the TPM link above:
The McCain campaign is going on the attack against the New York Times for reporting that campaign manger Rick Davis was paid almost $2 million as head of a lobbying organization that represented Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. . . . On a conference call with reporters today, Davis said only that he was involved in an effort to promote the cause of home-ownership -- but that he wasn't actually a lobbyist. . . . Then Steve Schmidt, the campaign's chief operating officer, aggressively took on the Times. "Whatever the New York Times once was, it is not today by any standard a journalistic organization," Schmidt said. "It is a pro-Obama organization that every day attacks Senator McCain, attacks Governor Palin, and excuses Senator Obama."
posted by mothershock at 9:47 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Steve Schmidt forgot to say the NYT is run by the Jews and communists.
posted by birdherder at 9:56 AM on September 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by birdherder at 9:56 AM on September 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
Daily Kos blogger: Conservatives trying to "freep" Palin poll
Tammy Bruce: "...PBS has a poll up asking whether or not Sarah Palin is qualified to serve as the vice-president. Joel noted this is a poll that deserves proper iCon representation."
Free Republic: "Need to freep this poll."
Illinois Review: "Flip the PBS Poll - PBS has an online poll about Sarah Palin - and (surprise, surprise!) the results are currently overwhelmingly negative. Let's not let the angry left win this poll."
Nice, honest tactics. And, now that a Democratic response is organizing, we get the message on the Sean Hannity board: Dems Stacking Palin PBS Poll!"
So we'll have this poll become a mad clicking contest. Web polls are utterly useless anyway - they're used only to make a web page seem more dynamic. They have no descriptive value. On the plus side, all these hits to a PBS page may result in more support from underwriters and stronger data in support of grant applications.
posted by Miko at 9:59 AM on September 22, 2008
Tammy Bruce: "...PBS has a poll up asking whether or not Sarah Palin is qualified to serve as the vice-president. Joel noted this is a poll that deserves proper iCon representation."
Free Republic: "Need to freep this poll."
Illinois Review: "Flip the PBS Poll - PBS has an online poll about Sarah Palin - and (surprise, surprise!) the results are currently overwhelmingly negative. Let's not let the angry left win this poll."
Nice, honest tactics. And, now that a Democratic response is organizing, we get the message on the Sean Hannity board: Dems Stacking Palin PBS Poll!"
So we'll have this poll become a mad clicking contest. Web polls are utterly useless anyway - they're used only to make a web page seem more dynamic. They have no descriptive value. On the plus side, all these hits to a PBS page may result in more support from underwriters and stronger data in support of grant applications.
posted by Miko at 9:59 AM on September 22, 2008
McCain Clueless When Asked About Fiorina’s $40 Million Golden Parachute: ‘I Do Not Know The Details’
“For the past week, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) has been railing against Wall Street ‘fat cats’ and pledging to ‘stop multi-million dollar payouts to CEOs who have broken the public trust.’posted by ericb at 10:01 AM on September 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
This principled stance against excessive executive compensation, however, is undermined by the fact that McCain’s senior economic adviser and former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina received $42 million dollars in compensation after being fired from HP. On NBC this morning, host Meredith Vieira noted that Fiorina ‘is an example of exactly the kind of person you say is at the root of the problem.’ McCain replied, ‘I don’t think so’:McCAIN: I don’t think so. … Because I think she did a good job as CEO in many respects. I don’t know the details of her compensation package. But she’s one of many advisers that I have.‘How can you not know the details of her past? I mean, that would be awfully important,’ Vieira responded.
Q: But she did get a $45 million dollar golden parachute after being fired while 20,000 of her employees were laid off.
McCAIN: I have many of the people, but I do not know the details of what happened.
Nor is McCain’s statement that Fiorina did a ‘good job’ as CEO of Hewlett-Packard quite accurate. The board of HP fired Fiorina in 2005, concluding ‘that she was spending too much time on the road, neglecting the nuts-and-bolts execution of her own strategic ideas,’ according to the New York Times. ‘[H]er superstar status was also her undoing.’
As CEO, Fiorina parked profits overseas using tax shelters, even though it negatively impacted the economy. The company held more than $14 billion overseas in 2004, according to the Washington Post. The Wall Street Journal noted that her tenure was ‘marked by a drop in morale at a company with a legendary history of a collegial culture.”
What the hell does "I have many of the people" mean? Does he mean lobbyists and fired CEOs?
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:05 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:05 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
$39 billion: The Wall Street Bonuses for the Big Five Investment Banks Last Year.
Bush Backs Unlimited Compensation For Disgraced CEOs: Now Is Not The Time For ‘Punitive Measures’.
posted by ericb at 10:06 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
"In 2007, Wall Street’s five biggest firms — Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, and Morgan Stanley — paid a record $39 billion in bonuses to themselves."These company executives are still fiercely fighting to protect their pay. Politico notes that the Bush Treasury Department is 'resisting efforts' by House Democrats 'to impose pay limits on Wall Street executives and bankers.'"
That’s $10 billion more than the $29 billion loan taxpayers are making to J.P. Morgan to save Bear Stearns.
Those 2007 bonuses were paid even though the shareholders in those firms last year collectively lost about $74 billion in stock declines — their worst year since 2002."
Bush Backs Unlimited Compensation For Disgraced CEOs: Now Is Not The Time For ‘Punitive Measures’.
posted by ericb at 10:06 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
‘How can you not know the details of her past? I mean, that would be awfully important,’ Vieira responded.
Fiorina? Palin? Oh, err, both!
posted by ericb at 10:18 AM on September 22, 2008
Fiorina? Palin? Oh, err, both!
posted by ericb at 10:18 AM on September 22, 2008
Evangelical leader smacks McCain for lack of 'principle' -- "He’s not the John McCain of 2000. … He seems to be waffling on issue after issue."
posted by ericb at 10:20 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by ericb at 10:20 AM on September 22, 2008
Bloomberg News: Obama, Not McCain Has Steady Hand In Crisis.
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on September 22, 2008
The Fiorina thing is outrageous. And McCain just grins and lies. That's just awful. Hypocrite. If he had the slightest bit of honor he would admit he was wrong and that it was a problem and he'd get rid of her. Nothing McCain said in that video ericb posted made any sense. I guess next ABC will be on the McCain campaign shit list, to go along with that monster Larry King of CNN and the New York Times. That needs to turn into an ad about McCains continued lying and complete contradictions.
posted by cashman at 10:23 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by cashman at 10:23 AM on September 22, 2008
Tammy Bruce: "...PBS has a poll up asking whether or not Sarah Palin is qualified to serve as the vice-president. Joel noted this is a poll that deserves proper iCon representation."Tammy Bruce: "...PBS has a poll up asking whether or not Sarah Palin is qualified to serve as the vice-president. Joel noted this is a poll that deserves proper iCon representation."
Slight derail, so feel free to move along.
I clicked on this link, and it occurred to me that one of the marketing efforts by the right wing to bring in sexually frustrated young males (large constituency for them, in my casual, non-scientific observation) is to have these marginally attractive, babed up bimbos pimp the talking points so that these guys can feel a little bit like they have a social life with a decent-looking woman by reading their books, watching them on TV and listening to their radio show. It's really quite brilliant and I hadn't appreciated it until just now. Probably not an original observation, but to me increased my awe in just how carefully these guys think through the details of marketing what would otherwise be odious ideas. And maybe not such a derail, given that we are talking about the Moosebabe from AK.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:24 AM on September 22, 2008
Slight derail, so feel free to move along.
I clicked on this link, and it occurred to me that one of the marketing efforts by the right wing to bring in sexually frustrated young males (large constituency for them, in my casual, non-scientific observation) is to have these marginally attractive, babed up bimbos pimp the talking points so that these guys can feel a little bit like they have a social life with a decent-looking woman by reading their books, watching them on TV and listening to their radio show. It's really quite brilliant and I hadn't appreciated it until just now. Probably not an original observation, but to me increased my awe in just how carefully these guys think through the details of marketing what would otherwise be odious ideas. And maybe not such a derail, given that we are talking about the Moosebabe from AK.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:24 AM on September 22, 2008
Washington Post: Steering the McCain Campaign, a Lot of Old Bush Hands.
Four More Years! Four More Years!!!
posted by ericb at 10:27 AM on September 22, 2008
Four More Years! Four More Years!!!
posted by ericb at 10:27 AM on September 22, 2008
Wow, ericb. That Bloomberg piece is really telling. Thanks.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:30 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:30 AM on September 22, 2008
Yeah, that Bloomberg piece is really revealing. Here's the money (rim shot) quote:
Tellingly, three former SEC chairmen, a Democrat, Arthur Levitt, and two Republicans, David Ruder and Bill Donaldson, have endorsed Obama. Levitt is a board member of Bloomberg LP, the parent company of Bloomberg News.posted by scody at 10:43 AM on September 22, 2008 [5 favorites]
Donaldson, who was tapped by Bush to head the SEC, says Obama called him last year about the financial-regulatory problems. He has never heard from McCain.
"Obama has been talking about the need for better financial regulation well before this crisis hit and has done some real thinking about it,'' says Donaldson, a lifelong Republican. "McCain comes across as someone who suddenly realized changes have to be made.''
Salon: My candidate, myself. After referencing the same Unskilled and Unaware of it article referenced earlier in the thread, the article ends with this:
posted by cashman at 10:53 AM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
The candidates should be willing, even eager to submit to the most difficult personal interrogations themselves. After all, this is an opportunity to demonstrate their intellectual prowess and skills with decision-making. Conversely, no candidate should be allowed to retreat into canned speeches or evasive comments.I hope that Gwen Ifill will provide some excellent questions. Palin has already shown herself to be more Bush in shrinking away and taking question time away from us.
Many of the failures of post-9/11 American policy were caused by or aggravated by the inability of our president to recognize his intellectual limitations (including his choice of advisors), keep an open mind, evaluate evidence such as the presence or absence of weapons of mass destruction, and listen to all sides of a complex issue. Perhaps this could have been avoided if Bush had been forced to publicly answer serious multifaceted questions prior to the election. Let's not make the same mistake again.
The next six weeks are our only chance to elect the most qualified candidate. This is not a time for interviewer politeness and gentle repartee that sidesteps controversial or delicate issues. It is not enough to hear each candidate regurgitate memorized and rehearsed policy statements; we must know what they will do and how they will act in situations for which they have not been adequately prepared. Leadership is measured by the best decisions during the worst times.
posted by cashman at 10:53 AM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
Evangelical leader smacks McCain for lack of principle.
Richard Cizik is more than an evangelical leader. As the article says, he runs the National Association of Evangelicals. That's 30 million members who comprise 45,000 churches from 59 denominations. And he's not happy with McCain or Palin.
But, before we jump up and down cheering over this, he doesn't exactly ensorse Obama, either. His parting shot is this:
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:04 AM on September 22, 2008
Richard Cizik is more than an evangelical leader. As the article says, he runs the National Association of Evangelicals. That's 30 million members who comprise 45,000 churches from 59 denominations. And he's not happy with McCain or Palin.
But, before we jump up and down cheering over this, he doesn't exactly ensorse Obama, either. His parting shot is this:
“I am a Republican, but I’m not comfortable with giving the Republicans four more years. I don’t see John McCain differing enough from the incumbent, and yet Obama is a work in progress, pretty much, so we’d be taking some risk with him. It’s a conundrum.”Keep in mind Cizik is himself something of a conundrum. He opposes gay marriage, is staunchly pro-life, but has also tried to make environmentalism a Christian issue, calling it "creation care". This earned him the wrath of Dobson, but has also earned him a great deal of respect in Washington for being able to come out on top nonetheless. And the 30 million people who comprise the NAE definitely listen to what he has to say.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:04 AM on September 22, 2008
Rasmussen: Obama up 52/44 in Minnesota (today).
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:10 AM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:10 AM on September 22, 2008
Matt Taibbi -- in the print edition of Rolling Stone (haven't seen this online) comes up with a beautiful zinger about Sarah Palin:
She appeared to be completely without shame and utterly full of shit, awing a room full of hardened reporters with her sickly-sweet line about the high-school-flame-turned-hubby who "five children later," is "still my guy." It was like watching Gidget address the Reichstag.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:31 AM on September 22, 2008 [10 favorites]
She appeared to be completely without shame and utterly full of shit, awing a room full of hardened reporters with her sickly-sweet line about the high-school-flame-turned-hubby who "five children later," is "still my guy." It was like watching Gidget address the Reichstag.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:31 AM on September 22, 2008 [10 favorites]
Oh, sorry -- the Taibbi piece is online.
OK, on a site called MarijuanaRadio. But still.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:33 AM on September 22, 2008
OK, on a site called MarijuanaRadio. But still.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:33 AM on September 22, 2008
More classic Taibbi:
The truly disgusting thing about Sarah Palin isn’t that she’s totally unqualified, or a religious zealot, or married to a secessionist, or unable to educate her own daughter about sex, or a fake conservative who raised taxes and porked up earmark millions every chance she got. No, the most disgusting thing about her is what she says about us: That you can ram us in the ass for eight solid years, and we’ll not only thank you for your trouble, we’ll sign you up for eight more years, if only you promise to stroke us in the right spot for few hours around election time.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:35 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
The truly disgusting thing about Sarah Palin isn’t that she’s totally unqualified, or a religious zealot, or married to a secessionist, or unable to educate her own daughter about sex, or a fake conservative who raised taxes and porked up earmark millions every chance she got. No, the most disgusting thing about her is what she says about us: That you can ram us in the ass for eight solid years, and we’ll not only thank you for your trouble, we’ll sign you up for eight more years, if only you promise to stroke us in the right spot for few hours around election time.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:35 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Miko, once cloning is perfected, I hope you're gently nudged to the front of the "people we need to clone" line. The world needs more of your intelligence and class.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:38 AM on September 22, 2008 [8 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:38 AM on September 22, 2008 [8 favorites]
Taibbi is doing his best to be the new Hunter S. Thompson. Cruel and brilliant:
Sarah Palin is a symbol of everything that is wrong with the modern United States. As a representative of our political system, she’s a new low in reptilian villainy, the ultimate cynical masterwork of puppeteers like Karl Rove. But more than that, she is a horrifying symbol of how little we ask for in return for the total surrender of our political power. Not only is Sarah Palin a fraud, she’s the tawdriest, most half-assed fraud imaginable, 20 floors below the lowest common denominator, a character too dumb even for daytime TV – And this country is going to eat her up, cheering every step of the way. All because most Americans no longer have the energy to do anything but lie back and allow ourselves to be jacked off by the calculating thieves who run this grasping consumer paradise we call a nation.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin is a symbol of everything that is wrong with the modern United States. As a representative of our political system, she’s a new low in reptilian villainy, the ultimate cynical masterwork of puppeteers like Karl Rove. But more than that, she is a horrifying symbol of how little we ask for in return for the total surrender of our political power. Not only is Sarah Palin a fraud, she’s the tawdriest, most half-assed fraud imaginable, 20 floors below the lowest common denominator, a character too dumb even for daytime TV – And this country is going to eat her up, cheering every step of the way. All because most Americans no longer have the energy to do anything but lie back and allow ourselves to be jacked off by the calculating thieves who run this grasping consumer paradise we call a nation.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, thanks...I am at least as edified and amazed by the writing here as anyone else, though. The good minds and spirits of MetaFilter hearten me.
posted by Miko at 12:10 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by Miko at 12:10 PM on September 22, 2008
Oooh. Palin may have been a clinic blocker, keeping women from access to health services they are legally entitled to access.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:14 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:14 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
And this country is going to eat her up, cheering every step of the way.
"Sarah Palin excites huge Florida crowd
Tens of thousands in Florida's Republican heartland turned out to hear vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin speak.
Palin drew thousands more than the estimated 20,000 people that turned out for Bush. A fire rescue official estimated the crowd at 25,000 to 30,000."
posted by cashman at 12:26 PM on September 22, 2008
"Sarah Palin excites huge Florida crowd
Tens of thousands in Florida's Republican heartland turned out to hear vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin speak.
Palin drew thousands more than the estimated 20,000 people that turned out for Bush. A fire rescue official estimated the crowd at 25,000 to 30,000."
posted by cashman at 12:26 PM on September 22, 2008
That huge Florida crowd in a conservative area was 25-30K. Good for her. Note that you may see this cited elsewhere as 60K, but this was based on the opinion of one fire marshal there and disputed by another. Of course, given the McCain's history of inflating crowd counts, I'd like to see proof the first guy exists and said what he's claimed to have said.
Meanwhile, as Jed points out, Obama pulled at least 20K in a GOP-friendly area of the same state a few days ago.
posted by maudlin at 12:48 PM on September 22, 2008
Meanwhile, as Jed points out, Obama pulled at least 20K in a GOP-friendly area of the same state a few days ago.
posted by maudlin at 12:48 PM on September 22, 2008
Fourcheesemac, thanks for posting. I sometimes think that Taibbi is a smug, posturing jackass, but that was an incredibly satisfying read. My favorite bit was right here:
So, sure, Barack Obama might be every bit as much as a slick piece of imageering as Sarah Palin. The difference is in what the image represents. The Obama image represents tolerance, intelligence, education, patience with the notion of compromise and negotiation, and a willingness to stare ugly facts right in the face, all qualities we’re actually going to need in government if we’re going to get out of this huge mess we’re in.
Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas
posted by psmealey at 12:58 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
So, sure, Barack Obama might be every bit as much as a slick piece of imageering as Sarah Palin. The difference is in what the image represents. The Obama image represents tolerance, intelligence, education, patience with the notion of compromise and negotiation, and a willingness to stare ugly facts right in the face, all qualities we’re actually going to need in government if we’re going to get out of this huge mess we’re in.
Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas
posted by psmealey at 12:58 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
My family moved here from Waukegan, Illinois on January 2, 1974, and since that time, my county has voted for the "other side" in all Presidential elections. The good news...As of August 31, 2008, the Obama campaign has registered over 100,000 new voters in my area! This is a 9.7% increase - higher than the state's increase in new registered voters (7.3%) Hallelujah! Follow me please . . .
This portends well for our candidate. The Republicans have new voter registrations of 51,000 and Independents 45,000! The Democratic Party has registered more than the Independent and Republican parties combined this cycle!
It looks like konolia's comment about this got eaten by Metafilter, but she was right that this is highly inaccurate. I'm not sure where this person's getting these numbers from, but they're wrong.
Currently for the entire state of North Carolina since the first of the year, there are 194,168 new Democrats, 28,512 new Republicans, 1,176 Libertarians (they weren't an available option until this year), and 140,001 new unaffiliated voters. 121,366 of the new registrations are African-American voters.
posted by EarBucket at 1:06 PM on September 22, 2008
This portends well for our candidate. The Republicans have new voter registrations of 51,000 and Independents 45,000! The Democratic Party has registered more than the Independent and Republican parties combined this cycle!
It looks like konolia's comment about this got eaten by Metafilter, but she was right that this is highly inaccurate. I'm not sure where this person's getting these numbers from, but they're wrong.
Currently for the entire state of North Carolina since the first of the year, there are 194,168 new Democrats, 28,512 new Republicans, 1,176 Libertarians (they weren't an available option until this year), and 140,001 new unaffiliated voters. 121,366 of the new registrations are African-American voters.
posted by EarBucket at 1:06 PM on September 22, 2008
konolia's here? I thought she left. She MeMailed me some sort of response to this.
But thanks for the even better numbers! 200K new dems, 30K new repubs, and 140K new unaffiliated, assuming that almost anyone Mr. K registered at a gun show would sign on as a repub, means we out organized them 6 to 1, not 2 to 1.
Woohoo!
In other news, the Humane Society of the US has issued its first ever presidential endorsement -- for Barack Obama!
Cute picture of Barack and a puppy.
Back off, wolf killer.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:12 PM on September 22, 2008 [5 favorites]
But thanks for the even better numbers! 200K new dems, 30K new repubs, and 140K new unaffiliated, assuming that almost anyone Mr. K registered at a gun show would sign on as a repub, means we out organized them 6 to 1, not 2 to 1.
Woohoo!
In other news, the Humane Society of the US has issued its first ever presidential endorsement -- for Barack Obama!
Cute picture of Barack and a puppy.
Back off, wolf killer.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:12 PM on September 22, 2008 [5 favorites]
A scathing article from Sam Harris in Newsweek in defense of "elitism" (shame about the lame title, though). The whole damn thing is eminently quotable, but here's a sample.
If anyone could make Christian theocracy smell like apple pie, Sarah Palin could.posted by scody at 1:13 PM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
[...] The point to be lamented is not that Sarah Palin comes from outside Washington, or that she has glimpsed so little of the earth's surface (she didn't have a passport until last year), or that she's never met a foreign head of state. The point is that she comes to us, seeking the second most important job in the world, without any intellectual training relevant to the challenges and responsibilities that await her.
[...] The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin's lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. "They think they're better than you!" is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. "Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!" Yes, all too ordinary.
[...] What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance. Watching her deny to Gibson that she had ever harbored the slightest doubt about her readiness to take command of the world's only superpower, one got the feeling that Palin would gladly assume any responsibility on earth:
"Governor Palin, are you ready at this moment to perform surgery on this child's brain?"
"Of course, Charlie. I have several boys of my own, and I'm an avid hunter."
"But governor, this is neurosurgery, and you have no training as a surgeon of any kind."
"That's just the point, Charlie. The American people want change in how we make medical decisions in this country. And when faced with a challenge, you cannot blink."
The prospects of a Palin administration are far more frightening, in fact, than those of a Palin Institute for Pediatric Neurosurgery. Ask yourself: how has "elitism" become a bad word in American politics? There is simply no other walk of life in which extraordinary talent and rigorous training are denigrated. We want elite pilots to fly our planes, elite troops to undertake our most critical missions, elite athletes to represent us in competition and elite scientists to devote the most productive years of their lives to curing our diseases. And yet, when it comes time to vest people with even greater responsibilities, we consider it a virtue to shun any and all standards of excellence. [...]
I believe that with the nomination of Sarah Palin for the vice presidency, the silliness of our politics has finally put our nation at risk. The world is growing more complex—and dangerous—with each passing hour, and our position within it growing more precarious. Should she become president, Palin seems capable of enacting policies so detached from the common interests of humanity, and from empirical reality, as to unite the entire world against us.
But thanks for the even better numbers!
No problem. NC Board of Elections registration numbers for the beginning of the year and current figures, if you're interested in perusing them further.
posted by EarBucket at 1:18 PM on September 22, 2008
No problem. NC Board of Elections registration numbers for the beginning of the year and current figures, if you're interested in perusing them further.
posted by EarBucket at 1:18 PM on September 22, 2008
I'm really done now.
I am seriously wondering why I stay here on this site at all. I posted a link to my board of elections, refuting the numbers on that Kos site.
There were only 20,000 total registrations since Jan I, 2008 in my county.
I posted a link so y'all could check for yourself.
But that was deleted.
So, maybe you just need an echo chamber.
posted by konolia at 1:19 PM on September 22, 2008
I am seriously wondering why I stay here on this site at all. I posted a link to my board of elections, refuting the numbers on that Kos site.
There were only 20,000 total registrations since Jan I, 2008 in my county.
I posted a link so y'all could check for yourself.
But that was deleted.
So, maybe you just need an echo chamber.
posted by konolia at 1:19 PM on September 22, 2008
Ack, she sends me more lies, now by email.
Specific for Fayetteville and Cumberland county, published yesterday:
New voter registrations could shift balance
By Francis X. Gilpin
Staff writer
. . .
Cumberland County already was a stronghold for North Carolina Democrats as they rang in 2008. There were 39,314 more registered Democrats than Republicans here.
That edge has since grown to nearly 47,000, largely because of the state’s surprising role in Barack Obama’s presidential primary victory over Hillary Rodham Clinton.
. . .
Cumberland and Robeson counties were among 10 in North Carolina that tallied the most Democratic senatorial and gubernatorial primary votes from 2000 to 2004, according to Guillory’s program.
. . . .
But Modibo M. Kadalie, a political scientist at Fayetteville State University, said the Democratic resurgence has changed that in North Carolina. “There’s a lot of young white voters who are going to go for Obama, and there’s a lot of working-class voters who are going to go for Obama,” Kadalie said. “The Democratic Party has been left with a more multiracial character.”
. . .
Since January in Cumberland County, Democrats have increased registration by nearly 10 percent and Republicans, by nearly 3 percent. The unaffiliated roll grew by 11 percent.
The Hayes campaign promised to comment on how voter registration in the 8th Congressional District might affect Hayes’ re-election chances but failed do so.
______
Again, whatever the exact numbers, my point stands: konolia's home town has more registered democrats than republicans.
So she doesn't "represent" Fayetteville or "small town America" or "North Carolina" any better than I do.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:19 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Specific for Fayetteville and Cumberland county, published yesterday:
New voter registrations could shift balance
By Francis X. Gilpin
Staff writer
. . .
Cumberland County already was a stronghold for North Carolina Democrats as they rang in 2008. There were 39,314 more registered Democrats than Republicans here.
That edge has since grown to nearly 47,000, largely because of the state’s surprising role in Barack Obama’s presidential primary victory over Hillary Rodham Clinton.
. . .
Cumberland and Robeson counties were among 10 in North Carolina that tallied the most Democratic senatorial and gubernatorial primary votes from 2000 to 2004, according to Guillory’s program.
. . . .
But Modibo M. Kadalie, a political scientist at Fayetteville State University, said the Democratic resurgence has changed that in North Carolina. “There’s a lot of young white voters who are going to go for Obama, and there’s a lot of working-class voters who are going to go for Obama,” Kadalie said. “The Democratic Party has been left with a more multiracial character.”
. . .
Since January in Cumberland County, Democrats have increased registration by nearly 10 percent and Republicans, by nearly 3 percent. The unaffiliated roll grew by 11 percent.
The Hayes campaign promised to comment on how voter registration in the 8th Congressional District might affect Hayes’ re-election chances but failed do so.
______
Again, whatever the exact numbers, my point stands: konolia's home town has more registered democrats than republicans.
So she doesn't "represent" Fayetteville or "small town America" or "North Carolina" any better than I do.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:19 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
And once again, either the Fayetteville newspaper is lying or konolia is lying about the number of new registrants. Of course, we're supposed to believe that she "called" the voter registration office for her numbers.
Can she tell the truth? Or is she as constitutionally unable to do so as Sarah Palin.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:21 PM on September 22, 2008
Can she tell the truth? Or is she as constitutionally unable to do so as Sarah Palin.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:21 PM on September 22, 2008
Hold on, I should retract that -- this article doesn't tell us the number of total new registrants, just that the dems have an edge in konolia's home county, and that was my sole point.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:23 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:23 PM on September 22, 2008
Yup, in Cumberland county, 8,881 new Democrats, 1,426 new Republicans, 4,592 new unaffiliated this year.
posted by EarBucket at 1:24 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by EarBucket at 1:24 PM on September 22, 2008
Fourcheesemac, my husband called the Board of Elections.
And as for your numbers, we are talking about new registrations from January of this year until now. For those familiar with the area, we have always had big Democrat numbers-many if not most of those are conservative Democrats who traditionally vote Republican at presidential elections. These are people who are democrats because granddaddy was a Democrat.
Even your own numbers only account for approximately 8,000 more Democrats.
posted by konolia at 1:26 PM on September 22, 2008
And as for your numbers, we are talking about new registrations from January of this year until now. For those familiar with the area, we have always had big Democrat numbers-many if not most of those are conservative Democrats who traditionally vote Republican at presidential elections. These are people who are democrats because granddaddy was a Democrat.
Even your own numbers only account for approximately 8,000 more Democrats.
posted by konolia at 1:26 PM on September 22, 2008
it occurred to me that one of the marketing efforts by the right wing to bring in sexually frustrated young males (large constituency for them, in my casual, non-scientific observation) is to have these marginally attractive, babed up bimbos pimp the talking points so that these guys can feel a little bit like they have a social life with a decent-looking woman by reading their books, watching them on TV and listening to their radio show.
Probably not an original observation, but to me increased my awe in just howcarefully these guys think with their dick through the details of marketing what would otherwise be odious ideas.
Fixed that for you.
posted by jonp72 at 1:27 PM on September 22, 2008
Probably not an original observation, but to me increased my awe in just how
Fixed that for you.
posted by jonp72 at 1:27 PM on September 22, 2008
Okay, on preview, I see you corrected yourself. Fair enough.
posted by konolia at 1:27 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by konolia at 1:27 PM on September 22, 2008
Which means that Cumberland has actually seen greater Democratic gains than the rest of the state, both as a percentage of the population, and as compared to statewide ratio of new voter registrations by party. It's turning bluer faster than the state as a whole.
posted by EarBucket at 1:30 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by EarBucket at 1:30 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, and Kay Hagan is up by 6 over Liddy Dole in Rasmussen, today.
And Cumberland country will go for Obama this year.
Look, the point is that konolia pretends she speaks for some silent majority of "small town" Americans. But when you examine it, even her home town is majority democrat, conservative or not, and competitive for Obama and Hagan.
I don't care about konolia or her church friends. I care about not stereotyping her community based on her actions or claims to represent it, or communities like it. Obama is winning in small town and rural areas all over this country.
Do not let people like konolia make you confuse "evangelical" (less than 20 percent of the vote) and "rural" or "small town" values, voters, or priorities. They are *not* one and the same thing. Her claim to martyrdom on MeFi is rooted in charges that we're a bunch of elitist ("Ivy League") smarty pants who don't know how regl'r Amurricans think and feel. She's wrong.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:31 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
And Cumberland country will go for Obama this year.
Look, the point is that konolia pretends she speaks for some silent majority of "small town" Americans. But when you examine it, even her home town is majority democrat, conservative or not, and competitive for Obama and Hagan.
I don't care about konolia or her church friends. I care about not stereotyping her community based on her actions or claims to represent it, or communities like it. Obama is winning in small town and rural areas all over this country.
Do not let people like konolia make you confuse "evangelical" (less than 20 percent of the vote) and "rural" or "small town" values, voters, or priorities. They are *not* one and the same thing. Her claim to martyrdom on MeFi is rooted in charges that we're a bunch of elitist ("Ivy League") smarty pants who don't know how regl'r Amurricans think and feel. She's wrong.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:31 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh, and roughly 2/3 of all Americans are pro Choice.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:33 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:33 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
For those familiar with the area, we have always had big Democrat numbers-many if not most of those are conservative Democrats who traditionally vote Republican at presidential elections.
Doesn't look like it:
The turnout is abysmal, though!
posted by Miko at 1:36 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Doesn't look like it:
Presidential politics: Cumberland County supported George W. Bush in the last election. According to unofficial vote totals for 2004, Bush received 48,042 votes and Kerry received 44,328 votes.That's pretty darn close, meaning most of the Democratic voters are NOT voting Republican in elections.
In the November 2000 race, the outcome in Cumberland County was quite close. Countywide, 38,129 people voted for Bush and 38,626 voted for Gore.
The turnout is abysmal, though!
posted by Miko at 1:36 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
And Cumberland country will go for Obama this year.
Bet on it. Cumberland was neck-and-neck between Kerry and Bush four years ago, and Obama's got a lot of factors in his favor: a huge number of black voters, big Dem gains in registration, plus he's way out-performing Kerry state-wide.
I'd say Hagan's about 60-40 to beat Dole at this point, the presidential race is a toss-up here, and Purdue's the underdog in the gubernatorial race.
posted by EarBucket at 1:37 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Bet on it. Cumberland was neck-and-neck between Kerry and Bush four years ago, and Obama's got a lot of factors in his favor: a huge number of black voters, big Dem gains in registration, plus he's way out-performing Kerry state-wide.
I'd say Hagan's about 60-40 to beat Dole at this point, the presidential race is a toss-up here, and Purdue's the underdog in the gubernatorial race.
posted by EarBucket at 1:37 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain camp calls on reporters to stop calling them liars, while lying.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:41 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Bookhouse at 1:41 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Wikipedia has more precise Cumberland County totals from 2004:
Kerry: 48.1% (45,788) - Bush: 51.6 (49,139)
posted by Miko at 1:42 PM on September 22, 2008
Kerry: 48.1% (45,788) - Bush: 51.6 (49,139)
posted by Miko at 1:42 PM on September 22, 2008
Yup, in Cumberland county, 8,881 new Democrats, 1,426 new Republicans, 4,592 new unaffiliated this year.
So while the exact numbers were off, the claim that the number of new Democrats > the number of new Republicans and unaffiliateds combined still stands? Great, moving on then!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:44 PM on September 22, 2008
So while the exact numbers were off, the claim that the number of new Democrats > the number of new Republicans and unaffiliateds combined still stands? Great, moving on then!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:44 PM on September 22, 2008
Kay Hagan is dusting Dole's butt because of her commercials. Go google them. The woman could be Hitler in a dress and people would vote for her.
Fourcheesemac, you aren't familiar with the South, are you?
Here in my county, if you want to vote and have your vote count for such offices as Sheriff, one needs to be a Democrat because traditionally, most folks running for office here run under the Democratic Party. That is starting to change here, but slowly. Meanwhile, most of the white Democrats in this region-not all, certainly, but most-are very conservative. If you ask them most of them will tell you"I don't vote for the party, I vote for the person." This is why they really don't worry about their party registration. To them it is pretty meaningless most of the time, as they look askance at all politicians pretty equally.
The higher numbers you see regarding registration are probably a reflection of the push to register African American voters. We have a historically black state college here (Fayetteville State) not to mention numerous strong African-American church congregations. As one of the previous posts mentioned, there has been a strong push to register these people precisely as they are seen as guaranteed votes for Obama (and mostly they are probably right, although I do know black conservatives here locally too-one of whom is running for state House as a Republican.)
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations. So the party that does the best job of motivating folks to go vote will most likely be the party with the advantage...bearing in mind that as the Dems motivate registered Dems to vote they have no way of truly knowing if their voter is a Blue Dog Democrat/Reagan Democrat or a liberal Democrat.
posted by konolia at 1:45 PM on September 22, 2008
Fourcheesemac, you aren't familiar with the South, are you?
Here in my county, if you want to vote and have your vote count for such offices as Sheriff, one needs to be a Democrat because traditionally, most folks running for office here run under the Democratic Party. That is starting to change here, but slowly. Meanwhile, most of the white Democrats in this region-not all, certainly, but most-are very conservative. If you ask them most of them will tell you"I don't vote for the party, I vote for the person." This is why they really don't worry about their party registration. To them it is pretty meaningless most of the time, as they look askance at all politicians pretty equally.
The higher numbers you see regarding registration are probably a reflection of the push to register African American voters. We have a historically black state college here (Fayetteville State) not to mention numerous strong African-American church congregations. As one of the previous posts mentioned, there has been a strong push to register these people precisely as they are seen as guaranteed votes for Obama (and mostly they are probably right, although I do know black conservatives here locally too-one of whom is running for state House as a Republican.)
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations. So the party that does the best job of motivating folks to go vote will most likely be the party with the advantage...bearing in mind that as the Dems motivate registered Dems to vote they have no way of truly knowing if their voter is a Blue Dog Democrat/Reagan Democrat or a liberal Democrat.
posted by konolia at 1:45 PM on September 22, 2008
I posted a link so y'all could check for yourself.
But that was deleted.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure there was some sort of server hiccup. The site went down for a couple of minutes and when it came back up, there were several consecutive comments gone, yours included. I don't think it was an intentional deletion.
posted by EarBucket at 1:47 PM on September 22, 2008
But that was deleted.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure there was some sort of server hiccup. The site went down for a couple of minutes and when it came back up, there were several consecutive comments gone, yours included. I don't think it was an intentional deletion.
posted by EarBucket at 1:47 PM on September 22, 2008
Oh, and yes, Miko, generally voter turnout here is rather abysmal. I suspect that this time it might not be the case!
posted by konolia at 1:52 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by konolia at 1:52 PM on September 22, 2008
There was a server weirdness. Last time I checked in I got a screen full of duplicate posts.
posted by Miko at 1:57 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by Miko at 1:57 PM on September 22, 2008
Here in my county, if you want to vote and have your vote count for such offices as Sheriff, one needs to be a Democrat because traditionally, most folks running for office here run under the Democratic Party. That is starting to change here, but slowly.
Wait a sec. Your vote counts no matter who you vote for local office. You don't need to be registered in the party you vote for in a general election. I'm not sure what you mean here.
posted by Miko at 2:00 PM on September 22, 2008
Wait a sec. Your vote counts no matter who you vote for local office. You don't need to be registered in the party you vote for in a general election. I'm not sure what you mean here.
posted by Miko at 2:00 PM on September 22, 2008
although I do know black conservatives here locally too
Like Vernon Robinson! (Remember him?)
But seriously, folks:
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations. So the party that does the best job of motivating folks to go vote will most likely be the party with the advantage
This. This is absolutely correct. And it's why Republicans should be crapping themselves right now. If a Southern red state like North Carolina that the GOP has been able to take for granted for 32 years is coming down to GOTV operations, McCain is doomed. If Obama loses here by 2 points, he wins Virginia by 4.
(Oh, and considering that Obama has six times as many paid staffers on the ground in NC and what I'd bet is at minimum a 6-1 volunteer advantage, I'm feeling all right about our odds as far as the ground game is concerned, too.)
posted by EarBucket at 2:00 PM on September 22, 2008
Like Vernon Robinson! (Remember him?)
But seriously, folks:
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations. So the party that does the best job of motivating folks to go vote will most likely be the party with the advantage
This. This is absolutely correct. And it's why Republicans should be crapping themselves right now. If a Southern red state like North Carolina that the GOP has been able to take for granted for 32 years is coming down to GOTV operations, McCain is doomed. If Obama loses here by 2 points, he wins Virginia by 4.
(Oh, and considering that Obama has six times as many paid staffers on the ground in NC and what I'd bet is at minimum a 6-1 volunteer advantage, I'm feeling all right about our odds as far as the ground game is concerned, too.)
posted by EarBucket at 2:00 PM on September 22, 2008
Fourcheesemac, you aren't familiar with the South, are you?
If you only knew.
Damn right I am familiar with the south. People who know me offline are laughing. Among other things, I've written a book on southern small town culture, and spent a good 10 years or so as a touring musician based in the Southwest, in which capacity I saw more of this country's small towns than you can name. And made many friends. And attended many churches, for what it's worth. I've even been to a few (hundred) fish fries.
But I've already explained that. Maybe the reason you're such an impossible interlocutor is that you don't read what anyone else writes before you speak your bit.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:03 PM on September 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
If you only knew.
Damn right I am familiar with the south. People who know me offline are laughing. Among other things, I've written a book on southern small town culture, and spent a good 10 years or so as a touring musician based in the Southwest, in which capacity I saw more of this country's small towns than you can name. And made many friends. And attended many churches, for what it's worth. I've even been to a few (hundred) fish fries.
But I've already explained that. Maybe the reason you're such an impossible interlocutor is that you don't read what anyone else writes before you speak your bit.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:03 PM on September 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
Wait a sec. Your vote counts no matter who you vote for local office. You don't need to be registered in the party you vote for in a general election. I'm not sure what you mean here
Well, you are right. The problem lies in that when you have two Democrats and no Republicans running for an office, the election ends when the primary does, for that particular race. Which means if you are a Republican, you didn't get to vote for that office.
posted by konolia at 2:10 PM on September 22, 2008
Well, you are right. The problem lies in that when you have two Democrats and no Republicans running for an office, the election ends when the primary does, for that particular race. Which means if you are a Republican, you didn't get to vote for that office.
posted by konolia at 2:10 PM on September 22, 2008
based in the Southwest
That is a totally different culture. My husband is from Colorado-he grew up in little mountain towns like Dolores and Salida-and trust me, the South is still a little of a culture shock for him.
posted by konolia at 2:12 PM on September 22, 2008
That is a totally different culture. My husband is from Colorado-he grew up in little mountain towns like Dolores and Salida-and trust me, the South is still a little of a culture shock for him.
posted by konolia at 2:12 PM on September 22, 2008
The woman could be Hitler in a dress and people would vote for her.
Yep. Pretty much describes Sarah Palin.
posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yep. Pretty much describes Sarah Palin.
posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here in my county, if you want to vote and have your vote count for such offices as Sheriff, one needs to be a Democrat because traditionally, most folks running for office here run under the Democratic Party.
What? Miko's right; this makes no sense.
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations.
For what it's worth, the newly registered are typically much more motivated to vote. I have a feeling NC's going to be an interesting sight this November.
But yeah, we'll see.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:13 PM on September 22, 2008
What? Miko's right; this makes no sense.
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time. THAT will matter way more than numbers of registrations.
For what it's worth, the newly registered are typically much more motivated to vote. I have a feeling NC's going to be an interesting sight this November.
But yeah, we'll see.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:13 PM on September 22, 2008
McCain camp calls on reporters to stop calling them liars, while lying.
An Interpretation of Steve Schmidt's Conference Call.
posted by ericb at 2:14 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
An Interpretation of Steve Schmidt's Conference Call.
posted by ericb at 2:14 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Doesn't look like it: [election statistics follow]
What that means given the fairly high black population is, in all likelihood, that black Democrats voted overwhelmingly for Gore and Kerry and that the white Democratic vote was deeply split, if not majority-Bush.
Wait a sec. Your vote counts no matter who you vote for local office.
For local offices, it's still not-uncommon in the ruralish South for whoever wins the Democratic nomination to overwhelmingly win the general. So if you want a say in who your sheriff actually is, that election is the Democratic primary.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
What that means given the fairly high black population is, in all likelihood, that black Democrats voted overwhelmingly for Gore and Kerry and that the white Democratic vote was deeply split, if not majority-Bush.
Wait a sec. Your vote counts no matter who you vote for local office.
For local offices, it's still not-uncommon in the ruralish South for whoever wins the Democratic nomination to overwhelmingly win the general. So if you want a say in who your sheriff actually is, that election is the Democratic primary.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I'm done here. -- konolia at 12:59 AM on September 21.
I'm really done now. -- konolia at 4:19 PM on September 22.
Oh, really? I don't think so!
posted by ericb at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm really done now. -- konolia at 4:19 PM on September 22.
Oh, really? I don't think so!
posted by ericb at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Marisa, see my reply to Miko.
If the only people running are democrats, then the winner of the democratic party election is the defacto winner of the election. There's been a time or two I didn't get to vote for sheriff, for instance.
posted by konolia at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008
If the only people running are democrats, then the winner of the democratic party election is the defacto winner of the election. There's been a time or two I didn't get to vote for sheriff, for instance.
posted by konolia at 2:21 PM on September 22, 2008
That is a totally different culture.
I said *based* in the southwest. Like I said, you need to learn to read better.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:22 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I said *based* in the southwest. Like I said, you need to learn to read better.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:22 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
You still get to vote. It may not be for the person you WISH was running, but you still get a vote!
posted by mothershock at 2:24 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by mothershock at 2:24 PM on September 22, 2008
If the only people running are democrats, then the winner of the democratic party election is the defacto winner of the election. There's been a time or two I didn't get to vote for sheriff, for instance.
And in this instance, we have a Republican and a Democrat running for president, so I can't say I understand where this factoid fits in with the number of newly registered Dems outnumbering newly registered Reps and Unaffiliateds combined. The sudden surge certainly isn't par for the course, and can't be entirely (or probably even mostly) attributed to local politics. Still, interesting to know.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:27 PM on September 22, 2008
And in this instance, we have a Republican and a Democrat running for president, so I can't say I understand where this factoid fits in with the number of newly registered Dems outnumbering newly registered Reps and Unaffiliateds combined. The sudden surge certainly isn't par for the course, and can't be entirely (or probably even mostly) attributed to local politics. Still, interesting to know.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:27 PM on September 22, 2008
A fascinating Pew report from 2004 on Southern Democrats and whether they are different from other Democrats:
posted by Miko at 2:29 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Southern Democrats are more culturally conservative than are Democrats in the rest of the country. But Southern Democrats agree with their fellow partisans elsewhere on many other issues, particularly in their support for the social safety net. ...I'm also familiar with the South through my own life experience, which is just as valid as anybody's, and just as anecdotal. So, once again, maybe we can get beyond "I know the South/ small towns/ Christians / Republicans/ Democrats/ and you don't, so I must be right."
...Despite the impressive electoral performance of the Republican Party in the South, however, Republicans do not greatly outnumber Democrats there. Overall, 34% of Southerners and 32% of those living outside the South identify themselves as Republicans (and when independents who lean toward a party are included, Republicans and Democrats are tied at 45% each). Among whites, the GOP does have a significant advantage in the South, with 41% of Southerners affiliating with the party, compared with 35% among non-Southerners....
Southern Democrats are more conservative on certain kinds of issues, though most of the differences are not especially large. The biggest area of regional disagreement is on cultural matters, including homosexuality, immigration, and – especially among white Democrats – race....
In the post-New Deal era, one of the defining differences between the Democratic and Republican parties has been the role of the government in economic matters. Despite differences with the national Democratic Party on the issue of race, many Southern white voters found the party to be a compatible political home on economic matters. And as black voters gained greater political clout with the passage of legislation such as the Voting Rights Act, Southern support for the party's stands on regulation and social safety net remained relatively strong....
Southern Democrats are just as committed to the social safety net as Democrats outside the South. Strong majorities of Democrats in every region agree that the government should take care of people who can't help themselves. And the same percentages of Democrats in the South and elsewhere (64%) believe that the government should help more needy people even if it means going deeper into debt.
Looks there's not really all that much difference between Southern Democrats and others on the issues of this election.
posted by Miko at 2:29 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
What that means given the fairly high black population is, in all likelihood, that black Democrats voted overwhelmingly for Gore and Kerry and that the white Democratic vote was deeply split, if not majority-Bush.
Ah, gotcha. So konolia was basically saying, of the white Democrats she knows, many lean right in elections. That could well be true, but it doesn't describe all local Democrats as a group, let alone "most" Democrats as was claimed - just the subset that is white.
posted by Miko at 2:34 PM on September 22, 2008
Ah, gotcha. So konolia was basically saying, of the white Democrats she knows, many lean right in elections. That could well be true, but it doesn't describe all local Democrats as a group, let alone "most" Democrats as was claimed - just the subset that is white.
posted by Miko at 2:34 PM on September 22, 2008
Obama Eyes a North Carolina Turnaround
“‘I need you Charlotte! I need you North Carolina!’ thundered Sen. Barack Obama on Sunday, addressing 15,000 people who gathered to hear him in this bright red state.posted by ericb at 2:50 PM on September 22, 2008
Capping a speech about the economic ‘values at stake’ in the election, Obama sounded more like a field organizer than a candidate, trying to persuade voters that a Democrat could actually win here. ‘I need you to knock on some doors!’ he yelled, ‘I need you to make some phone calls! I need you to talk to your neighbors!’
North Carolina has voted Republican in every presidential election since 1968, with the post-Watergate exception of 1972, when the Southerner Jimmy Carter won the state.
Obama’s campaign would probably not be spending precious time here in September, however, or investing in large-scale rallies or buying TV ads, unless they thought the state was truly in play. Some recent polling supports their optimism.
Democracy Corps, the polling firm run by Clintonites Stan Greenberg and James Carville, just surveyed the state and found Obama and McCain are neck and neck, with libertarian Bob Barr drawing several points.
Locals say Obama ‘will do a better job than McCain on the economy and jobs’ by 52 to 38 percent.
Even more striking, the firm’s memo, North Carolina Open to Democrats in 2008, states, ‘Obama holds a small advantage over McCain on taxes, 46 to 41 percent, a remarkable finding for a Democrat in North Carolina.’
Tar Heel voters say the country is on the wrong track by 68 to 22 percent — less than the country as a whole but still a strong majority.
Both presidential candidates now promise change, of course, but Obama can benefit more from antipathy for Republican federal policy in a state that’s been backing the status quo for a long time.”
And in this instance, we have a Republican and a Democrat running for president, so I can't say I understand where this factoid fits in with the number of newly registered Dems outnumbering newly registered Reps and Unaffiliateds combined.
To be fair, historically you've had a lot of NC Dems who are perfectly comfortable sending a Republican to the White House and a Democrat to the governor's mansion.
posted by EarBucket at 2:52 PM on September 22, 2008
To be fair, historically you've had a lot of NC Dems who are perfectly comfortable sending a Republican to the White House and a Democrat to the governor's mansion.
posted by EarBucket at 2:52 PM on September 22, 2008
And the subset she knows. Very important distinction.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:53 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:53 PM on September 22, 2008
To be fair, historically you've had a lot of NC Dems who are perfectly comfortable sending a Republican to the White House and a Democrat to the governor's mansion.
Oh, certainly. I just don't think thousands upon thousands of people, for the first time, registered with the Democrats this year to put McCain in office. Some of them, sure. Most of them? Doubtful.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:56 PM on September 22, 2008
Oh, certainly. I just don't think thousands upon thousands of people, for the first time, registered with the Democrats this year to put McCain in office. Some of them, sure. Most of them? Doubtful.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:56 PM on September 22, 2008
And just to guess, I'd say Fayetteville is about 60/40 or maybe 55/45 white/nonwhite (mostly African American), and out in the country it's a little more white, maybe 70/30.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:02 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:02 PM on September 22, 2008
The McCain-Palin Project: War With Iran
From the link:
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:25 PM on September 22, 2008
From the link:
"We gather here today to highlight the Iranian dictator's intentions and to call for action to thwart him."These warmongers do have a hard time with facts. If she is talking about Ahmedinejad, he was elected. If she is talking about Ali Khamenei, he is appointed by the Assembly of Experts, and so this is an oligarchy, not a dictatorship. Not that it is a terrible mistake, it's just that they're willing to call for war against an enemy they are so ignorant of that they can't even properly describe it. And how, when they can't get the simple, verifiable facts correct, can we trust anything else they claim about the enemy and their casus belli?
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:25 PM on September 22, 2008
Oh, sorry -- the Taibbi piece is online.
I love Matt Taibbi. I do. I love his prose, his emotion, his well crafted vitriol, his passion, his indignation, his refusal of the status quo, ...I just love him. Matt Taibbi, quite unbeknownst to him, is my secret journalism boyfriend.
posted by dejah420 at 3:31 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
I love Matt Taibbi. I do. I love his prose, his emotion, his well crafted vitriol, his passion, his indignation, his refusal of the status quo, ...I just love him. Matt Taibbi, quite unbeknownst to him, is my secret journalism boyfriend.
posted by dejah420 at 3:31 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Fourcheesemac, don't forget the Lumbee population-plus we have a pretty sizeable Hispanic population-which is rapidly growing.
posted by konolia at 3:57 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by konolia at 3:57 PM on September 22, 2008
(Matt has asked me to back off the political threads. So I'll see ya around.
posted by konolia at 4:02 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by konolia at 4:02 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Since some of us are using this thread as a resource for counterarguments and contextualization for context-free soundbites, here's another charge making the conservative rounds.
Andy McCarthy in the National Review Online:
Will Obama put our money where his mouth is? He took with both hands, $105,849, from Fan & Fred: placing him third behind only Sens. Dodd and Kerry (and nosing out Hillary) over the last decade — fast work since he's only been there for 3 years.
Will The One be returning that money to the taxpayers who are being asked to pick up this tab?
Context from Politifact:
Corporations cannot give to candidates, so the center's list adds up contributions from Fannie and Freddie employees and their families. Obama has received a lot of money during his presidential campaign, though, and Fannie and Freddie don't make his list of top 20 companies. (The top three companies with employees donating to Obama are Goldman Sachs, University of California, and Citigroup, according to the center.)
The New York Times looked at contributions from Fannie and Freddie's boards of directors and lobbyists, who are technically not employees. That analysis found Fannie and Freddie-related contributors gave $116,000 to John McCain and his related committees, compared with $16,000 to Obama and his related committees.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:26 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Andy McCarthy in the National Review Online:
Will Obama put our money where his mouth is? He took with both hands, $105,849, from Fan & Fred: placing him third behind only Sens. Dodd and Kerry (and nosing out Hillary) over the last decade — fast work since he's only been there for 3 years.
Will The One be returning that money to the taxpayers who are being asked to pick up this tab?
Context from Politifact:
Corporations cannot give to candidates, so the center's list adds up contributions from Fannie and Freddie employees and their families. Obama has received a lot of money during his presidential campaign, though, and Fannie and Freddie don't make his list of top 20 companies. (The top three companies with employees donating to Obama are Goldman Sachs, University of California, and Citigroup, according to the center.)
The New York Times looked at contributions from Fannie and Freddie's boards of directors and lobbyists, who are technically not employees. That analysis found Fannie and Freddie-related contributors gave $116,000 to John McCain and his related committees, compared with $16,000 to Obama and his related committees.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:26 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Hell, sorry about the borked Politifact link.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:29 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:29 PM on September 22, 2008
What I am wondering is whose side will be more motivated to get to the polls and vote-either early or on the day itself-considering that the lines are gonna be pretty darn long this time.
What kind of dirty tricks will the Republican party be playing in order to thwart the election? I mean, other than making every effort legal and illegal to cage black voters, of course.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:52 PM on September 22, 2008
What kind of dirty tricks will the Republican party be playing in order to thwart the election? I mean, other than making every effort legal and illegal to cage black voters, of course.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:52 PM on September 22, 2008
Kay Hagan is dusting Dole's butt because of her commercials. Go google them. The woman could be Hitler in a dress and people would vote for her.
The Rocking Chairs and Gas Station ads are pretty great. And I think Dole's cuter than Hitler.
If anyone could make Christian theocracy smell like apple pie, Sarah Palin could.
"When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." -- Sinclair Lewis
we have always had big Democrat numbers
Democratic numbers, please.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:53 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Those Hagan ads are totally fair, funny, and effective. Worth a look even if you don't care about NC sen.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:09 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:09 PM on September 22, 2008
A second poll (ABC/Washpo) confirms: Barack Obama leading outside the MoE in Virginia: 50-44.
Hot damn.
Who needs Ohio?
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 PM on September 22, 2008
Hot damn.
Who needs Ohio?
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 PM on September 22, 2008
And oh, the internals of that Virginia poll look *good.*
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:19 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:19 PM on September 22, 2008
Richard Trumka, Sec. Treasurer of the AFL CIO, discusses the issue of Obama's race and white working-class midwestern voters in a remarkably forceful and intelligent talk at the DNC. Highly recommended. (Youtube)
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:28 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:28 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Trumka (at 3:40): "Racism is a tool that’s used to divide working people. The only way working people have ever won anything in this country is by crossing that color line – by turning to each other, and not on each other." Amen.
posted by scody at 6:00 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by scody at 6:00 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sarah Palin addresses Media!
Media, Pennsylvania: the suburb of Philadelphia.
This must be some kind of sick joke. I despise this woman.
posted by clearly at 6:04 PM on September 22, 2008
Media, Pennsylvania: the suburb of Philadelphia.
This must be some kind of sick joke. I despise this woman.
posted by clearly at 6:04 PM on September 22, 2008
schyler523's "elitist" link Reminded me of somethinng that's been bugging me lately. The way in which the defense can reframe the attack.
The initial argument wasn't that McCain was out of touch because he owned 7 houses. It was that he couldn't remember how many houses he owned. Cindy McCain came back the next day with "My family worked hard to make all that money,and isn't that the American dream?" Which I thought was a lame counter, but it seems to have worked. Everyone still focuses on the number and not the forgetting.
Kind of the same way the initial Palin misgivings which were more about the lack of vetting, became about the what the lack of vetting turned up.
In that light, despite constant criticism for not attacking constantly or effectively, Obama's main attack of "more of the same/4 more years of bush" has been really difficult for The McCain camp to jiu-jitsu it's way out of. When all of this is Over, win or lose, the Obama campaign message discipline will be at the top of the list for future campaigns to emulate.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:11 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
The initial argument wasn't that McCain was out of touch because he owned 7 houses. It was that he couldn't remember how many houses he owned. Cindy McCain came back the next day with "My family worked hard to make all that money,and isn't that the American dream?" Which I thought was a lame counter, but it seems to have worked. Everyone still focuses on the number and not the forgetting.
Kind of the same way the initial Palin misgivings which were more about the lack of vetting, became about the what the lack of vetting turned up.
In that light, despite constant criticism for not attacking constantly or effectively, Obama's main attack of "more of the same/4 more years of bush" has been really difficult for The McCain camp to jiu-jitsu it's way out of. When all of this is Over, win or lose, the Obama campaign message discipline will be at the top of the list for future campaigns to emulate.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:11 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
*Cats for Obama* is definitely cute. (Not to be confused with *Pussies For McCain*).
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:20 PM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:20 PM on September 22, 2008 [4 favorites]
Who is the Elitist?
John Sidney McCain III. Why the Obama campaign doesn't mention his full name daily is a mystery to me.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:36 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Because that would open the door to the McCain campaign using "Barack Hussein Obama" as a smear, as opposed to leaving that dirty work to their surrogates. Probably a smart call by Plouffe.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:43 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:43 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Newsweek's Jonathan Alter invokes the Keating Five scandal, says McCain getting a free ride from the media.
posted by ericb at 9:09 PM on September 22, 2008
posted by ericb at 9:09 PM on September 22, 2008
To quote the message that led this thread:
The white war hero would never tell a lie. He has too much Honortm.
Bwaahahaha! Good one, billysumday!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:12 PM on September 22, 2008
The white war hero would never tell a lie. He has too much Honortm.
Bwaahahaha! Good one, billysumday!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:12 PM on September 22, 2008
Marisa, if you spent as much time noticing that some folks feel insulted when told they are stupid for having their opinions (Republicans) as you do insinuating that I'm slagging urbanites, you might understand what it is I am trying to say here.
Okay, I'll come right out and say it. The opinions that Republicans hold? Stupid.
It is unfortunate that abortions occur and you believe them to be murder. But they are not going to stop. So voting for people who are against them is not going to result in real change. And the fact that you seem just a little less disturbed over the thoughts of living, breathing babies in other countries dying (because they don't have our "freedom") hurts your position. Because according to anyone's definition--mine or yours--those children are alive. And they are dying necessarily, and quite a lot of them were actually loved and wanted by their parents. But it's okay, because they probably wouldn't grow up to be Christians, and what's the point of worrying over soon-to-be damned souls?
Sarah Palin? An idiot, at least relative to what she potentially could be...a president. She was chosen purely for political reasons. She fires up the Republican base, she looks pretty, and until she was more closely examined she sounded like a solid character. But she's like that crappy icing on cakes you get at the store, that look good but are flavorless and empty and crack and fall apart when you put your fork into them. The thing is, the more time passes, the less and less she talks like someone who knows what they're doing. The verbage she is using? Stupid.
Taxes as a Republican issue? Stupid. Ronald Reagan and Bush Junior are both responsible for increasing our national debt exponentially and increase spending in huge and totally unnecessary ways. Repubilcans seem to have no quirks about fighting wars, building borders, or increasing security. None of these things actually appreciably saves lives or preserves our wellbeing. If we spent even a fraction of the money squandered on things that we need, like healthcare, better education, etc. we'd see huge payoffs. It boggles the mind that Obama will probably lose, if he loses, because people think he is going to raise their taxes. Republicans are able to sell all Americans on the great American Dream (hallucination): next year, you too could be rich, so you *will* be affected by all of these wealthy-people tax cuts! OMG you will be affected by the death tax, somehow, magically, even though it's really an estate tax and only comes into play for amounts well over $1 million.
Values as a Republican issue? Poppycock. A lot of conservatives try to badmouth liberals as being "elite". Well, I really don't see the hypocrisy or shame in being wealthy and educated and still trying to help poor people. But I *do* think it's totally immoral for the Republican party to claim it is the party of morality when so many of its politicians talk in one direction while they're swirling their funny business in the other. Closeted gay self-hating homophobes, multiple divorcees who treated their wives like crap, and crafty advisors who use religion to tip an election one way or another (and encourage preachers to actually lie by saying that their congregants will go to hell...exactly where did Jesus say that?) for the purpose of pushing their self-serving economic agendas.
What about science? Whoops, did I say science, I meant un-science. Global warming, evolution, sociology, political science -- no discipline is "off the hook" so long as there are hard hitting conservatives pundits seeking to defend their beliefs and interests against the onslaught of petty facts and reality.
Add to the fact that the party is still harboring a whole bunch of closet racists, sexists, and homophobes, and I really don't have a lot of patience for them anymore. Look, we tried your way for 8 years, okay? It sucked. It sucked really really bad. We're sorry you got all hot and bothered when Clinton got his penis sucked and then lied about it. If we cross our hearts and swear that Obama will try to keep his privates in his undies for all the years he is president will you guys shut the heck up and just, oh, I don't know, give rational thinking a chance, just once?!?!?
I like you Konolia. I really do. This is honestly more directed at Republican positions than you specifically. But I think that your intelligence really shines when you're offering wisdom about how to deal with everyday life and living. When you're trying to defend Palin as a viable candidate? Not so much.
posted by Deathalicious at 10:33 PM on September 22, 2008 [11 favorites]
Okay, I'll come right out and say it. The opinions that Republicans hold? Stupid.
It is unfortunate that abortions occur and you believe them to be murder. But they are not going to stop. So voting for people who are against them is not going to result in real change. And the fact that you seem just a little less disturbed over the thoughts of living, breathing babies in other countries dying (because they don't have our "freedom") hurts your position. Because according to anyone's definition--mine or yours--those children are alive. And they are dying necessarily, and quite a lot of them were actually loved and wanted by their parents. But it's okay, because they probably wouldn't grow up to be Christians, and what's the point of worrying over soon-to-be damned souls?
Sarah Palin? An idiot, at least relative to what she potentially could be...a president. She was chosen purely for political reasons. She fires up the Republican base, she looks pretty, and until she was more closely examined she sounded like a solid character. But she's like that crappy icing on cakes you get at the store, that look good but are flavorless and empty and crack and fall apart when you put your fork into them. The thing is, the more time passes, the less and less she talks like someone who knows what they're doing. The verbage she is using? Stupid.
Taxes as a Republican issue? Stupid. Ronald Reagan and Bush Junior are both responsible for increasing our national debt exponentially and increase spending in huge and totally unnecessary ways. Repubilcans seem to have no quirks about fighting wars, building borders, or increasing security. None of these things actually appreciably saves lives or preserves our wellbeing. If we spent even a fraction of the money squandered on things that we need, like healthcare, better education, etc. we'd see huge payoffs. It boggles the mind that Obama will probably lose, if he loses, because people think he is going to raise their taxes. Republicans are able to sell all Americans on the great American Dream (hallucination): next year, you too could be rich, so you *will* be affected by all of these wealthy-people tax cuts! OMG you will be affected by the death tax, somehow, magically, even though it's really an estate tax and only comes into play for amounts well over $1 million.
Values as a Republican issue? Poppycock. A lot of conservatives try to badmouth liberals as being "elite". Well, I really don't see the hypocrisy or shame in being wealthy and educated and still trying to help poor people. But I *do* think it's totally immoral for the Republican party to claim it is the party of morality when so many of its politicians talk in one direction while they're swirling their funny business in the other. Closeted gay self-hating homophobes, multiple divorcees who treated their wives like crap, and crafty advisors who use religion to tip an election one way or another (and encourage preachers to actually lie by saying that their congregants will go to hell...exactly where did Jesus say that?) for the purpose of pushing their self-serving economic agendas.
What about science? Whoops, did I say science, I meant un-science. Global warming, evolution, sociology, political science -- no discipline is "off the hook" so long as there are hard hitting conservatives pundits seeking to defend their beliefs and interests against the onslaught of petty facts and reality.
Add to the fact that the party is still harboring a whole bunch of closet racists, sexists, and homophobes, and I really don't have a lot of patience for them anymore. Look, we tried your way for 8 years, okay? It sucked. It sucked really really bad. We're sorry you got all hot and bothered when Clinton got his penis sucked and then lied about it. If we cross our hearts and swear that Obama will try to keep his privates in his undies for all the years he is president will you guys shut the heck up and just, oh, I don't know, give rational thinking a chance, just once?!?!?
I like you Konolia. I really do. This is honestly more directed at Republican positions than you specifically. But I think that your intelligence really shines when you're offering wisdom about how to deal with everyday life and living. When you're trying to defend Palin as a viable candidate? Not so much.
posted by Deathalicious at 10:33 PM on September 22, 2008 [11 favorites]
Man, I love this so incredibly much: Maureen Dowd got Aaron Sorkin to imagine a conversation between Obama and Jeb Bartlet, the President on The West Wing. I originally saw it in crossoverman's "There is only hope" thread on the blue, but I definitely felt it was worthy of posting here as well.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:47 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:47 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
A second poll (ABC/Washpo) confirms: Barack Obama leading outside the MoE in Virginia: 50-44.
It's even better when you include third party candidates in the question: 51 Obama, 43 McCain, 2 Barr, 2 Nader.
Virginia's looking good.
posted by EarBucket at 5:03 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's even better when you include third party candidates in the question: 51 Obama, 43 McCain, 2 Barr, 2 Nader.
Virginia's looking good.
posted by EarBucket at 5:03 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ah, new polling today. Relevant to this thread: Center for Rural Strategies shows McCain up (only) 10 points over Obama in 13 key rural states. That's better than against Bush in 2004 (13 percent win in rural areas) and far better than Bush 2000. Given that 20 percent of Americans live in rural communities, being only 10 points down with the 20 percent of voters who are usually the most reliable GOP bloc is really impressive for any democrat in the modern era. Obama, make no mistake, is competitive in rural America. Money quote:
The rural race is more competitive than four years ago, said Tim Marema of the nonprofit Center for Rural Strategies, of Whitesburg, Kentucky, which commissioned the poll, conducted last week. At this point in 2004, President George W. Bush had a 13-point rural lead over John Kerry on his way to re-election.
This has to scare the crap out of McCain.
Another good one today:
NBC poll has Obama leading by 2 (within MoE) in Florida, confirming a spate of recent polling showing Florida well and truly tied. We can win Florida with strong GOTV.
And the excellent firm PPP has a few internals out for a forthcoming Colorado poll that shows Sarah Palin with a growing unfavorable rating (from 41/38 fav/unfav to 38/47 in less than two weeks) and that is expected to show Obama up by 3 or 4 in Colorado. Palin is a drag on the ticket in Colorado, a western state where she's supposed to be a big help.
Quinnipiac has a few good ones out yesterday too, confirming PPP's likely Colorado numbers, showing a nice solid lead in Wisconsin for Barack, and showing Obama's slight leads in Michigan and Minnesota holding steady (but within MoE):
COLORADO: Obama 49 (44) – McCain 45 (46)
MICHIGAN: Obama 48 (46) - McCain 44 (42)
MINNESOTA: Obama 47 (46) - McCain 45 (44)
WISCONSIN: Obama 49 (50) - McCain 42 (39)
Research 2000 daily tracker continues to show the same 6 point Obama lead nationally that we're seeing (btwn 3 and 6) in almost all national trackers all week.
So again, do not let people tell you Obama can't win Bush states, rural areas, or this election. I fully expect that after the first debate and a few more days of financial crisis that we will see Obama head into the low 50s, Mccain into the low 40s. State polling is just now catching up to the Obama rise and McCain decline of last week.
Fortitude!
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 AM on September 23, 2008
The rural race is more competitive than four years ago, said Tim Marema of the nonprofit Center for Rural Strategies, of Whitesburg, Kentucky, which commissioned the poll, conducted last week. At this point in 2004, President George W. Bush had a 13-point rural lead over John Kerry on his way to re-election.
This has to scare the crap out of McCain.
Another good one today:
NBC poll has Obama leading by 2 (within MoE) in Florida, confirming a spate of recent polling showing Florida well and truly tied. We can win Florida with strong GOTV.
And the excellent firm PPP has a few internals out for a forthcoming Colorado poll that shows Sarah Palin with a growing unfavorable rating (from 41/38 fav/unfav to 38/47 in less than two weeks) and that is expected to show Obama up by 3 or 4 in Colorado. Palin is a drag on the ticket in Colorado, a western state where she's supposed to be a big help.
Quinnipiac has a few good ones out yesterday too, confirming PPP's likely Colorado numbers, showing a nice solid lead in Wisconsin for Barack, and showing Obama's slight leads in Michigan and Minnesota holding steady (but within MoE):
COLORADO: Obama 49 (44) – McCain 45 (46)
MICHIGAN: Obama 48 (46) - McCain 44 (42)
MINNESOTA: Obama 47 (46) - McCain 45 (44)
WISCONSIN: Obama 49 (50) - McCain 42 (39)
Research 2000 daily tracker continues to show the same 6 point Obama lead nationally that we're seeing (btwn 3 and 6) in almost all national trackers all week.
So again, do not let people tell you Obama can't win Bush states, rural areas, or this election. I fully expect that after the first debate and a few more days of financial crisis that we will see Obama head into the low 50s, Mccain into the low 40s. State polling is just now catching up to the Obama rise and McCain decline of last week.
Fortitude!
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:17 AM on September 23, 2008
Chris Rock on Letterman last night discussing Bill Clinton, Sarah Palin, and Alaska. Has this great line:
"She's up there holding a dead moose, and Michael Vick is like, 'why am I in jail?'"
And he calls Alaska "Road Warrior, with snow."
Hilarious. (Youtube link)
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:24 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
"She's up there holding a dead moose, and Michael Vick is like, 'why am I in jail?'"
And he calls Alaska "Road Warrior, with snow."
Hilarious. (Youtube link)
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:24 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain Transition Head Lobbied for Freddie Mac Before Takeover.
posted by cashman at 5:25 AM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
Newly available congressional records show Timmons's firm received $260,000 this year before its lobbying activities were barred under terms of the government rescue of the failed mortgage giant. Timmons, 77, is listed as a lobbyist for Freddie Mac on the company's midyear financial-disclosure form.Just like with Fiorina, he faux rails against these people, and these people are the ones leading his campaign! He's just straight lying. And they're stalling, because the debate this week is about foreign policy, so they will just stall for a few days until that news takes over. I know politics is a dirty game, but this seems to be just blatant assuming that the people who vote for you are complete morons. You want to know what elitist is talking down to you and taking you for complete morons, republicans? John McCain is that elitist. Not that it hasn't been noted before, but it just seems to get more and more blatant when McCain's top campaign staff roster is full of the people he claims he's against.
While Republicans say Timmons is making plans for the transition if McCain wins in November, the campaign wouldn't confirm his role. Timmons didn't return a phone call seeking comment.
McCain has labeled Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae as prime culprits in creating the financial storm that has roiled Wall Street and Washington.
``At the center of the problem were the lobbyists, politicians, and bureaucrats who succeeded in persuading Congress and the administration to ignore the festering problems at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac,'' he said last week in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
``Using money and influence, they prevented reforms that would have curbed their power and limited their ability to damage our economy,'' he said. ``And now, as ever, the American taxpayers are left to pay the price for Washington's failure.''
posted by cashman at 5:25 AM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
Naomi Wolff scares the crap out of me with this column.
Money quote:
Scharansky divided nations into "fear societies" and "free societies." Make no mistake: Sarah "Evita" Palin is Rove and Cheney's cosmetic rebranding of their fascist push: she will help to establish a true and irreversible "fear society" in this once free once proud nation. For God's sake, do not let her; do not let them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:43 AM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Money quote:
Scharansky divided nations into "fear societies" and "free societies." Make no mistake: Sarah "Evita" Palin is Rove and Cheney's cosmetic rebranding of their fascist push: she will help to establish a true and irreversible "fear society" in this once free once proud nation. For God's sake, do not let her; do not let them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:43 AM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Seriously. And combine that with this little article on how the Army is preparing for martial law...
posted by mothershock at 6:11 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by mothershock at 6:11 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
From the comments on the Naomi Wolf column: "The VEEP in wolves clothing."
posted by lysdexic at 7:05 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by lysdexic at 7:05 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Well, well. George Will expands on his scathing indictment of John McCain's temperament on This Week (ABC, linked above). Now he's got a column in the Washington Post
Money quote:
Under the pressure of the financial crisis, one presidential candidate is behaving like a flustered rookie playing in a league too high. It is not Barack Obama.
When the GOP loses George Will, all hell is about to break loose. McCain seems to have jumped the shark with all but the rabid evangelical base, still busily devouring the raw meat of the Palin pick, but soon to turn on their master when their stomachs growl again and they realize they've been sold a bill of goods (electorally speaking). McCain has been so busy shoring up his base that he's failed to build a bridge to the center of his own party, which he assumed he had for most of the last year or two. The long awaited divide within the right is now manifesting across the board, and both the neocons and the evangelicals do not have sufficient numbers without main street and corporate pragmatic republicans in the mix.
It's like Christmas morning. Because if they lose this election badly, the craziest evangelicals are peeling off for good. We may well be witnessing the apotheosis of the GOP for our generation. Whatever future it has, it will not be with Sarah Palin or her wing of the coalition.
Oh, and in light of an earlier set of conflicts upthread, there's a little movement on to donate to Planned Parenthood in Sarah Palin's name. You can use the same interface to donate in anyone's name. Not that I'm suggesting anything, but if you'd like the thank you card sent to the Alaska Governor's Office, their address is:
Governor Sarah Palin
Alaska State Capitol Building
Third Floor
P.O. Box 110001
Juneau, AK 99811-0001
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:14 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Money quote:
Under the pressure of the financial crisis, one presidential candidate is behaving like a flustered rookie playing in a league too high. It is not Barack Obama.
When the GOP loses George Will, all hell is about to break loose. McCain seems to have jumped the shark with all but the rabid evangelical base, still busily devouring the raw meat of the Palin pick, but soon to turn on their master when their stomachs growl again and they realize they've been sold a bill of goods (electorally speaking). McCain has been so busy shoring up his base that he's failed to build a bridge to the center of his own party, which he assumed he had for most of the last year or two. The long awaited divide within the right is now manifesting across the board, and both the neocons and the evangelicals do not have sufficient numbers without main street and corporate pragmatic republicans in the mix.
It's like Christmas morning. Because if they lose this election badly, the craziest evangelicals are peeling off for good. We may well be witnessing the apotheosis of the GOP for our generation. Whatever future it has, it will not be with Sarah Palin or her wing of the coalition.
Oh, and in light of an earlier set of conflicts upthread, there's a little movement on to donate to Planned Parenthood in Sarah Palin's name. You can use the same interface to donate in anyone's name. Not that I'm suggesting anything, but if you'd like the thank you card sent to the Alaska Governor's Office, their address is:
Governor Sarah Palin
Alaska State Capitol Building
Third Floor
P.O. Box 110001
Juneau, AK 99811-0001
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:14 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Naomi Wolff scares the crap out of me with this column.
Naomi Wolff can bite my shiny metal ass. Many others on the left and right have weighed her theories and found her wanting. That article of hers was just a rehash of her hyperbole without much consideration of whether Obama's economic team isn't influenced by the Chicago School themselves... considering many of them teach at U Chicago.
Seriously. And combine that with this little article on how the Army is preparing for martial law...
In the last days of Clinton some on the right thought Clinton did the Cole bombing to seize control. I knew this would happen on the left this time around.
Honestly, calm the hell down, all of you. Let's just hope we don't get a Florida or a 269-269 final.
posted by dw at 8:00 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Naomi Wolff can bite my shiny metal ass. Many others on the left and right have weighed her theories and found her wanting. That article of hers was just a rehash of her hyperbole without much consideration of whether Obama's economic team isn't influenced by the Chicago School themselves... considering many of them teach at U Chicago.
Seriously. And combine that with this little article on how the Army is preparing for martial law...
In the last days of Clinton some on the right thought Clinton did the Cole bombing to seize control. I knew this would happen on the left this time around.
Honestly, calm the hell down, all of you. Let's just hope we don't get a Florida or a 269-269 final.
posted by dw at 8:00 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Andrew Sullivan keeps up the pressure on Palin . . . choice excerpt from The Twelve Lies of Sarah Palin:
So for the record, let it be known that the candidate for vice-president for the GOP is a compulsive, repetitive, demonstrable liar. If you follow the links, here is the proof. I repeat: proof:
- She has lied about the Bridge To Nowhere. She ran for office favoring it, wore a sweatshirt defending it, and only gave it up when the federal congress, Senator McCain in particular, went ballistic. She kept the money anyway and favors funding Don Young's Way, at twice the cost of the original bridge.
- She has lied about her firing of the town librarian and police chief of Wasilla, Alaska.
- She has lied about pressure on Alaska's public safety commissioner to fire her ex-brother-in-law.
- She has lied about her previous statements on climate change.
- She has lied about Alaska's contribution to America's oil and gas production.
- She has lied about when she asked her daughters for their permission for her to run for vice-president.
- She has lied about the actual progress in constructing a natural gas pipeline from Alaska.
- She has lied about Obama's position on habeas corpus.
- She has lied about her alleged tolerance of homosexuality.
- She has lied about the use or non-use of a TelePrompter at the St Paul convention.
- She has lied about her alleged pay-cut as mayor of Wasilla.
- She has lied about what Alaska's state scientists concluded about the health of the polar bear population in Alaska.
You cannot trust a word she says. On anything.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:14 AM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
So for the record, let it be known that the candidate for vice-president for the GOP is a compulsive, repetitive, demonstrable liar. If you follow the links, here is the proof. I repeat: proof:
- She has lied about the Bridge To Nowhere. She ran for office favoring it, wore a sweatshirt defending it, and only gave it up when the federal congress, Senator McCain in particular, went ballistic. She kept the money anyway and favors funding Don Young's Way, at twice the cost of the original bridge.
- She has lied about her firing of the town librarian and police chief of Wasilla, Alaska.
- She has lied about pressure on Alaska's public safety commissioner to fire her ex-brother-in-law.
- She has lied about her previous statements on climate change.
- She has lied about Alaska's contribution to America's oil and gas production.
- She has lied about when she asked her daughters for their permission for her to run for vice-president.
- She has lied about the actual progress in constructing a natural gas pipeline from Alaska.
- She has lied about Obama's position on habeas corpus.
- She has lied about her alleged tolerance of homosexuality.
- She has lied about the use or non-use of a TelePrompter at the St Paul convention.
- She has lied about her alleged pay-cut as mayor of Wasilla.
- She has lied about what Alaska's state scientists concluded about the health of the polar bear population in Alaska.
You cannot trust a word she says. On anything.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:14 AM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Sarah Palin: Mean Girl (David Talbot, Salon)
Racism and the Race -- Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:38 AM on September 23, 2008
Racism and the Race -- Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:38 AM on September 23, 2008
Networks deny Palin camera coverage at UN world leader meetings (after McCain camp forbids them from having reporters there who might . . . gasp . . . ask questions and not show proper "deference").
Could the media be growing a pair? Are they actually taking offense at the blame-the-media and avoid-the-media strategies of the McCain campaign?
I mean, the whole point of this fiasco in NYC was supposed to be getting pictures of the Divine Ms. Sarah shaking hands with world leaders, and because they are afraid she might get asked questions, they are willing to forego coverage on major networks? Wow. wow. wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Could the media be growing a pair? Are they actually taking offense at the blame-the-media and avoid-the-media strategies of the McCain campaign?
I mean, the whole point of this fiasco in NYC was supposed to be getting pictures of the Divine Ms. Sarah shaking hands with world leaders, and because they are afraid she might get asked questions, they are willing to forego coverage on major networks? Wow. wow. wow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Update (NY Times) -- Media Rebellion Over Palin Photo Opps
McCain is backing down and will permit reporters. Now, will they ask questions?
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:30 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
McCain is backing down and will permit reporters. Now, will they ask questions?
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:30 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Palin Pandered to Wasilla's Wackiest Wingnuts
posted by jonp72 at 9:36 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jonp72 at 9:36 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Aw, that Rednecks for Obama site seriously warms the heart of this GRITS*.
* - Girl Raised In The South
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:41 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
* - Girl Raised In The South
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:41 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
And PPP Colorado has now come out -- Obama 51, McCain 44. Obama now leads with white voters.
As a reminder, Obama wins VA, NC, CO, NM, and NV and he doesn't *need* Ohio or Florida. (Even so, I think he will take Florida; recent polling internals for Tampa Bay area showing great numbers, and remember that Florida has been creamed by the housing market meltdown.)
Thank you Sarah Palin!
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:05 AM on September 23, 2008
As a reminder, Obama wins VA, NC, CO, NM, and NV and he doesn't *need* Ohio or Florida. (Even so, I think he will take Florida; recent polling internals for Tampa Bay area showing great numbers, and remember that Florida has been creamed by the housing market meltdown.)
Thank you Sarah Palin!
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:05 AM on September 23, 2008
Racism and the Race -- Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive
This is the bit that really scares me. I know how racist lots of people are. Those who were born after desegregation not only don't have, but cannot understand the racism of those who remember "colored" drinking fountains, and lunch counters where black workers weren't welcome, and different doors into hospitals, different treatment at the hands of the justice system...it's impossible, I think, for us to understand how radically the world changed because of Lyndon Johnson and his courageous decision to end his own political career and give the south to the Republicans, so that all people, regardless of skin color, would be protected under the law.
Segregation didn't even start in some southern states until the 70s. I was one of the first kids bused into a "bad neighborhood". And ya know, when I left the chain link fence, and went home with a school friend...there wasn't anything "bad" about the neighborhood...it was just filled with black folks. The houses were just like the houses in our blue collar neighborhood...filled with kids and peanut butter and laughter.
But that's not how the grown ups saw it. They threw rocks at our buses, angry at the government for busing white kids into a black neighborhood, and taking it out on the cowering 6 year olds in the bus. I can't even imagine how horrible it was for the black kids bused into the white neighborhoods.
To this day, older towns in the South (this may be true in the North, I don't know), are divided along an unspoken, but firmly dividing line. It's weird. I recently visited a whole bunch of places, and every town had a street, or an avenue where one neighborhood stopped and the next racial neighborhood picked up...and there's this sort of weird zone between the two where almost nobody goes.
I think the "black" thing is a much bigger issue than many people think it is. Especially those of us that are progressives. We want to believe that it doesn't matter, that people have evolved in the 40 years since Selma, that equality has taken hold in the hearts and minds of the people around us.
But I fear that it hasn't. I think the Republican-fed hysteria about "affirmative action taking away jobs from good white people" has taken root and grown strong. Media distortion of crimes have made people afraid of black men. I have two black families in houses across and catercorner from my house. When they moved in, I was the only one who went over with a casserole and a welcome to the neighborhood bag of goodies. (You know, those things you can never find when you move; soap, toilet paper, dish soap, etc.) One of the men is a doctor, and one of them is a social worker who fosters teen boys. All I heard from the neighbors was how our property values were going to go down. In the 21st century! Seriously. And when I said "Erm...how does a doctor make property value go down?", they looked around and whispered "Well...you know...", as though I were going to be part of their racist conspiracy by refusing to say "Wait? You mean because they're Black?"
Racism is alive and growing, and I fear that it may be the downfall of not just Obama, but of the entire country. For if the electorate defines what's right by the color of the candidate's skin...we have lost so much more than hope. We've lost our humanity.
posted by dejah420 at 10:06 AM on September 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
This is the bit that really scares me. I know how racist lots of people are. Those who were born after desegregation not only don't have, but cannot understand the racism of those who remember "colored" drinking fountains, and lunch counters where black workers weren't welcome, and different doors into hospitals, different treatment at the hands of the justice system...it's impossible, I think, for us to understand how radically the world changed because of Lyndon Johnson and his courageous decision to end his own political career and give the south to the Republicans, so that all people, regardless of skin color, would be protected under the law.
Segregation didn't even start in some southern states until the 70s. I was one of the first kids bused into a "bad neighborhood". And ya know, when I left the chain link fence, and went home with a school friend...there wasn't anything "bad" about the neighborhood...it was just filled with black folks. The houses were just like the houses in our blue collar neighborhood...filled with kids and peanut butter and laughter.
But that's not how the grown ups saw it. They threw rocks at our buses, angry at the government for busing white kids into a black neighborhood, and taking it out on the cowering 6 year olds in the bus. I can't even imagine how horrible it was for the black kids bused into the white neighborhoods.
To this day, older towns in the South (this may be true in the North, I don't know), are divided along an unspoken, but firmly dividing line. It's weird. I recently visited a whole bunch of places, and every town had a street, or an avenue where one neighborhood stopped and the next racial neighborhood picked up...and there's this sort of weird zone between the two where almost nobody goes.
I think the "black" thing is a much bigger issue than many people think it is. Especially those of us that are progressives. We want to believe that it doesn't matter, that people have evolved in the 40 years since Selma, that equality has taken hold in the hearts and minds of the people around us.
But I fear that it hasn't. I think the Republican-fed hysteria about "affirmative action taking away jobs from good white people" has taken root and grown strong. Media distortion of crimes have made people afraid of black men. I have two black families in houses across and catercorner from my house. When they moved in, I was the only one who went over with a casserole and a welcome to the neighborhood bag of goodies. (You know, those things you can never find when you move; soap, toilet paper, dish soap, etc.) One of the men is a doctor, and one of them is a social worker who fosters teen boys. All I heard from the neighbors was how our property values were going to go down. In the 21st century! Seriously. And when I said "Erm...how does a doctor make property value go down?", they looked around and whispered "Well...you know...", as though I were going to be part of their racist conspiracy by refusing to say "Wait? You mean because they're Black?"
Racism is alive and growing, and I fear that it may be the downfall of not just Obama, but of the entire country. For if the electorate defines what's right by the color of the candidate's skin...we have lost so much more than hope. We've lost our humanity.
posted by dejah420 at 10:06 AM on September 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
Hell, Barack holds all the Kerry states plus Iowa, NM, and Colorado and he wins regardless of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina. (Assumes holding Minnesota, Michigan, Penn, and NH).
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:09 AM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:09 AM on September 23, 2008
Why is New Hampshire such an island of marginality in the middle of the solidly democrat Northeast?
And, thanks for keeping the good links coming, guys.
posted by Rumple at 10:19 AM on September 23, 2008
And, thanks for keeping the good links coming, guys.
posted by Rumple at 10:19 AM on September 23, 2008
Not that I'm suggesting anything, but if you'd like the thank you card sent to the Alaska Governor's Office...
Done. And you guys will come rescue me from Gitmo if these 'tards win the election, right? Right, guys? Guys?...
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:41 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Done. And you guys will come rescue me from Gitmo if these 'tards win the election, right? Right, guys? Guys?...
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:41 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
And you guys will come rescue me from Gitmo if these 'tards win the election, right?
Sure we will. But I'm not sure it'll work.
COLLECTED MEFITES: Hi, we're here to pick up Mental Wimp.
GITMO GENERAL: I'm sorry, President Palin isn't here. Have you checked the Wasilla White House?
posted by hifiparasol at 10:55 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sure we will. But I'm not sure it'll work.
COLLECTED MEFITES: Hi, we're here to pick up Mental Wimp.
GITMO GENERAL: I'm sorry, President Palin isn't here. Have you checked the Wasilla White House?
posted by hifiparasol at 10:55 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, President Palin isn't here. Have you checked the Wasilla Waffle House?
posted by ericb at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, Supreme High Empress Palin, Divine One Anointed by Jesus Himself, isn't here. Have you checked the Wasilla Federal Church of God?
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:06 AM on September 23, 2008 [6 favorites]
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:06 AM on September 23, 2008 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, her lordship isn't here. GET IN THE VAN, HIPPIE!
posted by dirtdirt at 11:12 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by dirtdirt at 11:12 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, Supreme High Empress Palin, Divine One Anointed by Jesus Himself, isn't here. Have you checked the Wasilla Federal Church of God?
"We must pray for the Lord's will to be done [wink, wink]."
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:16 AM on September 23, 2008
"We must pray for the Lord's will to be done [wink, wink]."
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:16 AM on September 23, 2008
When McCain took questions, one woman in the audience stood up and directed her attention to the reporters in the room. She wasn't happy about reading stories focusing on Sarah Palin's family.(this story, click on Listen Now, then skip to about 1:39)
"We want the media to start doing their job and stop picking on little children because of their age and their pregnancies. Shame on you. Shame on all of youse."
McCain thought about about his response.
"I'm not - that is a great question. heheh. One thing I want to assure you of is that Governor Palin, she can take it. She can take it."
I don't know about you, but I'm not hearing any Palin Pregnancy stories on the news or reading them in my newspaper. I'd love to see her prove McCain right by taking more actual interviews, though.
posted by jepler at 12:19 PM on September 23, 2008
scody's link above to the piece by Sam Harris, in Newsweek Sept 29 (why do they do that?) issue, deserves repetition for emphasis. Harris takes Palin apart better than anyone else has done so far. Totally gripping read. Better even than Taibbi because a tad more nuanced yet just as outraged. Money quote:
The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin's lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. "They think they're better than you!" is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. "Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!" Yes, all too ordinary.
Must read.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:31 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin's lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. "They think they're better than you!" is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. "Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!" Yes, all too ordinary.
Must read.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:31 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Do you think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President? - so far, the ayes have it - on PBS, no less. Must be getting freep'd.
To my knowledge, Sarah Palin is more than 34 years old, is a natural born citizen and been a resident of the U.S. for more than 14 years. This makes her qualified to be President.
I definitely think this is the wrong question to be asking.
Well, there's a huge difference between "eligible" and "qualified". Schwarzenegger is more qualified than Palin, but he's not eligible.
posted by lysdexic at 12:42 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
To my knowledge, Sarah Palin is more than 34 years old, is a natural born citizen and been a resident of the U.S. for more than 14 years. This makes her qualified to be President.
I definitely think this is the wrong question to be asking.
Well, there's a huge difference between "eligible" and "qualified". Schwarzenegger is more qualified than Palin, but he's not eligible.
posted by lysdexic at 12:42 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Be careful whom you leave in your dust but fail to kill, Oh Anointed One.
Lyda Green, president of the Alaska state senate and a republican, has been publicly trashed by the Palin and McCain campaign as part of the troopergate coverup. Well, she may have power to convene the senate to pursue an independent investigation, and she sounds mad enough to try. (Mother Jones, MoJo blog)
Lie down with sharks, wake up with no limbs, sister. They have payback in Alaska politics too.
We're going to learn a lot more about Alaska politics in the coming weeks. And the backstabbing climber who used her colleagues as ladder rungs in her scramble for the brass ring.
Seriously, I think she's done in Alaskan politics if she doesn't win Veep, which ain't gonna happen.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:43 PM on September 23, 2008
Lyda Green, president of the Alaska state senate and a republican, has been publicly trashed by the Palin and McCain campaign as part of the troopergate coverup. Well, she may have power to convene the senate to pursue an independent investigation, and she sounds mad enough to try. (Mother Jones, MoJo blog)
Lie down with sharks, wake up with no limbs, sister. They have payback in Alaska politics too.
We're going to learn a lot more about Alaska politics in the coming weeks. And the backstabbing climber who used her colleagues as ladder rungs in her scramble for the brass ring.
Seriously, I think she's done in Alaskan politics if she doesn't win Veep, which ain't gonna happen.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:43 PM on September 23, 2008
From fourcheesemac's Newsweek link:
I care even more about the many things Palin thinks she knows but doesn't: like her conviction that the Biblical God consciously directs world events. Needless to say, she shares this belief with mil-lions of Americans—but we shouldn't be eager to give these people our nuclear codes, either. There is no question that if President McCain chokes on a spare rib and Palin becomes the first woman president, she and her supporters will believe that God, in all his majesty and wisdom, has brought it to pass. Why would God give Sarah Palin a job she isn't ready for? He wouldn't. Everything happens for a reason. Palin seems perfectly willing to stake the welfare of our country—even the welfare of our species—as collateral in her own personal journey of faith. Of course, McCain has made the same unconscionable wager on his personal journey to the White House.
This attitude is absolutely 100% true for the many, many evangelicals I know, and that is fucking terrifying.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I care even more about the many things Palin thinks she knows but doesn't: like her conviction that the Biblical God consciously directs world events. Needless to say, she shares this belief with mil-lions of Americans—but we shouldn't be eager to give these people our nuclear codes, either. There is no question that if President McCain chokes on a spare rib and Palin becomes the first woman president, she and her supporters will believe that God, in all his majesty and wisdom, has brought it to pass. Why would God give Sarah Palin a job she isn't ready for? He wouldn't. Everything happens for a reason. Palin seems perfectly willing to stake the welfare of our country—even the welfare of our species—as collateral in her own personal journey of faith. Of course, McCain has made the same unconscionable wager on his personal journey to the White House.
This attitude is absolutely 100% true for the many, many evangelicals I know, and that is fucking terrifying.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama: The Price of Being Black (currently discussed here) explains the Bradley Effect:
Such behavior has been called the "Bradley Effect ," after Tom Bradley, a black mayor of Los Angeles who lost his bid to be California's governor back in 1982. While every poll showed him leading his white opponent, that isn't how the final tally turned out. Things haven't been far different in some other elections involving black candidates. In 1989, David Dinkins was eighteen points ahead in the polls for New York's mayoral election, but ended up winning by only a two-point edge. (...)
Just out of the booth, we hear them telling white exit pollers that they supported the black candidate, whereas returns from these precincts show far fewer such votes. Thus they lie to interviewers they don't know and will never see again. Barack Obama wants to think "white guilt [over treatment of blacks] has largely exhausted itself in America." [6] I'm less sure. Almost all people who reject black candidates say they have nonracial reasons for doing so. And many undoubtedly believe what they're saying. So I'm not persuaded that the Bradley gap won't emerge this year. The Obama campaign would do well to print signs to post prominently in all its offices: ALWAYS SUBTRACT SEVEN PERCENT!
And if you subtract seven percent (or even three), it doesn't look too good for Obama.
So here are the main reasons why I still believe that Obama will lose, in spite of the current polls showing him ahead:
a) The Bradley Effect
b) Voter disenfranchisement (making it virtually impossible for some to register)
c) Voter caging
d) Diebold shenanigans
Frustratingly, any of b) to d) could make the difference, but afterwards it can conveniently be blamed on the Bradley effect. "The country just isn't ready for a black president, you know."
posted by sour cream at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2008
Such behavior has been called the "Bradley Effect ," after Tom Bradley, a black mayor of Los Angeles who lost his bid to be California's governor back in 1982. While every poll showed him leading his white opponent, that isn't how the final tally turned out. Things haven't been far different in some other elections involving black candidates. In 1989, David Dinkins was eighteen points ahead in the polls for New York's mayoral election, but ended up winning by only a two-point edge. (...)
Just out of the booth, we hear them telling white exit pollers that they supported the black candidate, whereas returns from these precincts show far fewer such votes. Thus they lie to interviewers they don't know and will never see again. Barack Obama wants to think "white guilt [over treatment of blacks] has largely exhausted itself in America." [6] I'm less sure. Almost all people who reject black candidates say they have nonracial reasons for doing so. And many undoubtedly believe what they're saying. So I'm not persuaded that the Bradley gap won't emerge this year. The Obama campaign would do well to print signs to post prominently in all its offices: ALWAYS SUBTRACT SEVEN PERCENT!
And if you subtract seven percent (or even three), it doesn't look too good for Obama.
So here are the main reasons why I still believe that Obama will lose, in spite of the current polls showing him ahead:
a) The Bradley Effect
b) Voter disenfranchisement (making it virtually impossible for some to register)
c) Voter caging
d) Diebold shenanigans
Frustratingly, any of b) to d) could make the difference, but afterwards it can conveniently be blamed on the Bradley effect. "The country just isn't ready for a black president, you know."
posted by sour cream at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2008
New Mexico GOP leader: Hispanics won’t support Obama because they think they’re ‘above blacks.’
posted by ericb at 1:00 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by ericb at 1:00 PM on September 23, 2008
"In Ohio today, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) ignored questions from reporters on the bailout, prompting one journalist to yell, 'Has your bus become the No Talk Express?'"*
posted by ericb at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Refuse to submit to cynicism. The best poll analysts, most especially Nate Silver (at the absolutely essential fivethirtyeight.com ), have raised serious doubts about the Bradley effect being in any evidence in the dem primaries; if it's there, it's far less than 3 percent. And there are a number of unpolled and unpollable factors (including a "reverse Bradley effect," the number of younger voters with only cell phones, and the incalulable effect of Obama's massive registration and GOTV efforts) that would seem to add up to more than enough to compensate.
Even the vote rigging/caging/theft stuff, while clearly already underway, is only effective at the margin in a very close election.
I still remember Florida 2000 and Swift Boat 2004 like they were yesterday, and am prone to cynicism and pessimism on our chances out of sheer respect for just how evil and crooked the GOP really is. But I'm a social scientist, and when I apply my rational mind to the situation, I think it looks pretty good for a win this time. The big unknown -- and this could also be a GOP dirty trick a la Reagan and the missles for hostages caper -- would be a major war on terra event or the capture of Bin Laden in the weeks before the election. Word on a number of reliable streets is that Bushco is definitely making efforts in that direction, and who knows how the terra-ists are thinking -- I'm sure we'll see more things like Karachi and Yemen, more videotapes (which I think are produced in Dick Cheney's bunker, personally, using actors from Guantanamo).
But the sheer scale of this economic crisis -- we're talking more money than the entire Iraq war, and more impact on people's immediate daily lives -- would otherwise seem to be an overwhelming advantage to the democratic party. Obama needs to play it right. So far, so good.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2008
Even the vote rigging/caging/theft stuff, while clearly already underway, is only effective at the margin in a very close election.
I still remember Florida 2000 and Swift Boat 2004 like they were yesterday, and am prone to cynicism and pessimism on our chances out of sheer respect for just how evil and crooked the GOP really is. But I'm a social scientist, and when I apply my rational mind to the situation, I think it looks pretty good for a win this time. The big unknown -- and this could also be a GOP dirty trick a la Reagan and the missles for hostages caper -- would be a major war on terra event or the capture of Bin Laden in the weeks before the election. Word on a number of reliable streets is that Bushco is definitely making efforts in that direction, and who knows how the terra-ists are thinking -- I'm sure we'll see more things like Karachi and Yemen, more videotapes (which I think are produced in Dick Cheney's bunker, personally, using actors from Guantanamo).
But the sheer scale of this economic crisis -- we're talking more money than the entire Iraq war, and more impact on people's immediate daily lives -- would otherwise seem to be an overwhelming advantage to the democratic party. Obama needs to play it right. So far, so good.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2008
Here -- take heart. Nate Silver, who does the math more seriously than anyone else blogging publicly about the election, argues against expecting much of a Bradley effect. Convinced me.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:08 PM on September 23, 2008
This is what a true woman of the people looks -- and sounds -- like: Rep. Marcy Kaptur on the bail-out farce.
posted by mothershock at 1:17 PM on September 23, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by mothershock at 1:17 PM on September 23, 2008 [7 favorites]
The best poll analysts, most especially Nate Silver (at the absolutely essential fivethirtyeight.com ), have raised serious doubts about the Bradley effect being in any evidence in the dem primaries; if it's there, it's far less than 3 percent.
I'm not convinced. This is the dem primaries, in which the choice boiled down to Obama vs. Clinton ("Hey, I didn't vote for the black guy, but I voted for the woman -- ain't I progressive?"). But a national election where the choice is between a black and a white guy might be an entirely different beast.
Also, what makes you so sure there won't be significant fraud using Diebold? Apparently, the tools are all in place. Any discrepancies to the polls can be conveniently explained away with the Bradley effect ("Gee, a Bradley percentage of six percent nationwide, whoda thunk it?")
I just hope that team Obama has on the ground helpers ready on E-day to document all irregularities (preferably on video) and has also retained a couple good lawyers. Does anyone here know what measures are being taken in that direction?
posted by sour cream at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2008
I'm not convinced. This is the dem primaries, in which the choice boiled down to Obama vs. Clinton ("Hey, I didn't vote for the black guy, but I voted for the woman -- ain't I progressive?"). But a national election where the choice is between a black and a white guy might be an entirely different beast.
Also, what makes you so sure there won't be significant fraud using Diebold? Apparently, the tools are all in place. Any discrepancies to the polls can be conveniently explained away with the Bradley effect ("Gee, a Bradley percentage of six percent nationwide, whoda thunk it?")
I just hope that team Obama has on the ground helpers ready on E-day to document all irregularities (preferably on video) and has also retained a couple good lawyers. Does anyone here know what measures are being taken in that direction?
posted by sour cream at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2008
It looks like McCain may have helped cover up information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
posted by casarkos at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by casarkos at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2008
And yes he does! Lots of them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2008
Gallup shows Dem party ID is back up to 10 points over GOP ID -- it had fallen sharply after the GOP convention, but it's back.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:46 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:46 PM on September 23, 2008
Oh, Marcy Kaptur! Thank you mothershock.
Watch that video, if you haven't. Freaking right on!
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2008
Watch that video, if you haven't. Freaking right on!
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2008
I just hope that team Obama has on the ground helpers ready on E-day to document all irregularities (preferably on video) and has also retained a couple good lawyers. Does anyone here know what measures are being taken in that direction?
The Obama campaign is recruiting teams of volunteer lawyers to work as poll observers in swing states, particularly in precincts with high minority populations.
The man cut his teeth in Chicago. He's going to play hardball.
posted by EarBucket at 1:55 PM on September 23, 2008
The Obama campaign is recruiting teams of volunteer lawyers to work as poll observers in swing states, particularly in precincts with high minority populations.
The man cut his teeth in Chicago. He's going to play hardball.
posted by EarBucket at 1:55 PM on September 23, 2008
Stupid shit forwarded by my wifes relatives:
>
> This is a matter of opinion and opinions are like (well you know) everybody has one.
>
> My personal opinion? I agree.
>
> If after reading this email you disagree, Please, no need to reply back to me. Your opinion is yours and that's fine, just delete it.
> *******************************
> A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine that America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.
>
> Pause a moment, reflect back.
>
> These events are actual events from history.
>
> They really happened!!!
>
> Do you remember?
>
> 1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male extremist.
>
> 2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim male extremists.
> 5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists. ( remember the pilot of this flight was from
> Richmond , MO )
>
> 8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim male extremists.
>
> 13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you guessed it-- Muslim male extremists.
>
> No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people... Absolutely No Profiling!
>
>
> They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
>
> According to The Book of Revelation:
>
> The Anti-Christ will be a man who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, he will destroy everything.
>
> And Now:
> For the award winning Act of Stupidity Of all times the People of America want to elect, to the most Powerful position on the face of the Planet -- The Presidency of the United states of America .. A Male of Muslim descent who is the most extremely liberal Senator in Congress (in other words an extremist) and in his 40's.
>
> Have the American People completely lost their Minds, or just their Power of Reason ???
>
> I'm sorry but I refuse to take a chance on the 'unknown' candidate Obama...
>
> Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other stupid attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense.
>
> As the writer of the award winning story ' Forest Gump' so aptly put it,
> 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does'
>
> Each opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet..do it!
> or again. . . just delete if you disagree.
>
posted by Artw at 2:03 PM on September 23, 2008
>
> This is a matter of opinion and opinions are like (well you know) everybody has one.
>
> My personal opinion? I agree.
>
> If after reading this email you disagree, Please, no need to reply back to me. Your opinion is yours and that's fine, just delete it.
> *******************************
> A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine that America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.
>
> Pause a moment, reflect back.
>
> These events are actual events from history.
>
> They really happened!!!
>
> Do you remember?
>
> 1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male extremist.
>
> 2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim male extremists.
> 5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists. ( remember the pilot of this flight was from
> Richmond , MO )
>
> 8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male extremists.
>
> 12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim male extremists.
>
> 13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you guessed it-- Muslim male extremists.
>
> No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people... Absolutely No Profiling!
>
>
> They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
>
> According to The Book of Revelation:
>
> The Anti-Christ will be a man who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, he will destroy everything.
>
> And Now:
> For the award winning Act of Stupidity Of all times the People of America want to elect, to the most Powerful position on the face of the Planet -- The Presidency of the United states of America .. A Male of Muslim descent who is the most extremely liberal Senator in Congress (in other words an extremist) and in his 40's.
>
> Have the American People completely lost their Minds, or just their Power of Reason ???
>
> I'm sorry but I refuse to take a chance on the 'unknown' candidate Obama...
>
> Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other stupid attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense.
>
> As the writer of the award winning story ' Forest Gump' so aptly put it,
> 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does'
>
> Each opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet..do it!
> or again. . . just delete if you disagree.
>
posted by Artw at 2:03 PM on September 23, 2008
It looks like McCain may have helped cover up information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
My God. If all this info is true and the facts are self-evident enough for the mainstream media to figure out (which is hard to say, since they seem to take a long time to figure anything out of late), then the election is over. Period.
Because this, my friends, is the ultimate cynicism -- to make yourself into the POW Hero while preventing the truth about Vietnam POW-MIAs coming out.
They still fly the POW-MIA flag at Mariners and Seahawks games. I think it's state law. Imagine every Obama supporting Seahawks fan pointing at the flag and telling their McCain supporting Seahawks fan seat-mate that that flag still flies because John McCain did all he could to make sure They Did Not All Come Home?
posted by dw at 2:04 PM on September 23, 2008
My God. If all this info is true and the facts are self-evident enough for the mainstream media to figure out (which is hard to say, since they seem to take a long time to figure anything out of late), then the election is over. Period.
Because this, my friends, is the ultimate cynicism -- to make yourself into the POW Hero while preventing the truth about Vietnam POW-MIAs coming out.
They still fly the POW-MIA flag at Mariners and Seahawks games. I think it's state law. Imagine every Obama supporting Seahawks fan pointing at the flag and telling their McCain supporting Seahawks fan seat-mate that that flag still flies because John McCain did all he could to make sure They Did Not All Come Home?
posted by dw at 2:04 PM on September 23, 2008
Sounds like konolia.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:05 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:05 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ken Silverstein interviews Nate Silver in Harpers. Good stuff.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:11 PM on September 23, 2008
> If after reading this email you disagree, Please, no need to reply back to me. Your opinion is yours and that's fine, just delete it.
A riot; and the request is repeated at the bottom. Seems reasonable, but then consider the effect: people who disagree stay silent, while people who enthusiastically agree propogate the message, and it never really confronts the powerful light of day. Whatever; I'd respond anyway, to the whole address list. People should be accountable for their email blasts.
Might include these links about how that email's origin was tracked down and about racist wingnut Andy Martin, who created it: Scholar Looks for First Link in E-Mail Chain About Obama and perhaps Martin's campaign website from his run for, um, Senator from Illinois. Wikipedia.
posted by Miko at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
A riot; and the request is repeated at the bottom. Seems reasonable, but then consider the effect: people who disagree stay silent, while people who enthusiastically agree propogate the message, and it never really confronts the powerful light of day. Whatever; I'd respond anyway, to the whole address list. People should be accountable for their email blasts.
Might include these links about how that email's origin was tracked down and about racist wingnut Andy Martin, who created it: Scholar Looks for First Link in E-Mail Chain About Obama and perhaps Martin's campaign website from his run for, um, Senator from Illinois. Wikipedia.
posted by Miko at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Funny how the Oklahoma City bombing and the Texas cyanide gas plot are missing from that list.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:31 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:31 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Whoops, be careful - looks like the WaPo story is about a different email forward.
But here's a direct taking-on of this one:
But here's a direct taking-on of this one:
Let’s begin with the Book of Revelation (note the singular, which is accurate), the final book in the Bible’s New Testament, which is 22 chapters long. Its sweeping apocalyptic language is laced with metaphors and symbols that challenge modern readers, but nowhere does it offer the kind of cookbook definition of the Antichrist proposed in this e-mail.posted by Miko at 2:31 PM on September 23, 2008 [12 favorites]
To reach our findings, we read the Book of Revelation and interviewed two religious scholars. Here's what we found:
• The word “anti-christ” does not appear in the Book of Revelation.
“The word Antichrist is not used in the Book of Revelation so this is important to point out,” said Dr. James D. Tabor, professor and chair of the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. “Everybody thinks the word is used.”
That’s a pretty big hole in this e-mail from the get-go. We didn’t find the word in reading the text and our second scholar confirms this critical point.
“First and foremost, the word Antichrist and a figure called the Antichrist never occurs in the Book of Revelation in the New Testament,” said Dr. L. Michael White, professor of classics and religious studies at the University of Texas and director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins.
Now, some people interpret characters in the Book of Revelation to be the Antichrist even though the text doesn’t use this word. Specifically, in Chapter 13 there is a beast “having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy” that some consider to be an allusion to the Antichrist.
“It’s only in Chapter 13 and you could almost miss it,” Tabor said.
But among biblical scholars and historians, there is strong consensus that none of the strange, evil-sounding characters in the Book of Revelation actually represents the Antichrist.
“It wasn’t there in the Bible,” White said. “It emerges in the Middle Ages. It’s something historians deal with.”
Now the word Antichrist does appear a few times in other books of the Bible, specifically in First John and Second John. The description in First John, Chapter 4, verse 3 says: “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
• There’s no mention of a man of a certain age.
The Book of Revelation talks of God, Jesus Christ, John, spirits, Jezebel, a beast like a calf, a beast like a flying eagle, elders, a great red dragon and many more animals and people. But nowhere does it describe “a man, in his 40s,” as the e-mail alleges.
“As you notice, there’s nothing about being age 40,” Tabor said. “This is completely wrong. The Book of Revelation doesn’t say that. It says it’s a male, so I guess they got that right. It says ‘he,’ ‘he,’ ‘he.’ ”
• There’s no mention of the word “Muslim.”
Considering the Bible was completed by the early second century, and the religion of Islam wasn’t founded until the early 600s, it’s not surprising that the word Muslim (the name for followers of Islam) does not appear in the Book of Revelation.
So it’s this part of the e-mail, where it says the Antichrist will be a man “of Muslim descent,” that our religious scholars find particularly ridiculous.
By definition, the Antichrist is “the polar opposite and ultimate enemy of Christ,” according to the Encyclopedia Britannica. And because Muslims believe “there is no god but God,” they would have great difficulty with the idea of elevating a person to a divine status, White said.
“A Muslim would be a monotheist and the last thing a Muslim would do is have anyone worship anyone other than God,” Tabor said.
Not to mention the fact that Obama is not a Muslim.
White points to the specific descriptions of the Antichrist as evidence that the e-mail is drawing from a number of sources to create the image it wants to portray.
“There is no part of that anywhere in the Bible, not in those forms,” said White, who was a co-writer and historical consultant for the 1999 PBS documentary, Apocalypse! Time, History, and Revolution. “That’s all a jigsaw puzzle of bits and pieces all filtered through the kind of end-of-world scenarios we get in the theology that is the underpinning of the Left Behind novels.”
White says this patchwork interpretation of the Bible is common in some groups trying to justify certain beliefs.
“Of course, they never bothered to read the Scriptures carefully ... so it’s kind of a system of interpretation. That if you start with that presupposition, it’s all there you can just find it,” White said.
“That description (in the chain e-mail) never occurs anywhere in one place nor are the component parts really about the same situation. It’s a cherry-picking through Scripture to get it all to fit together.”
It looks like McCain may have helped cover up information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
I remember reading about this in 2004, but in this case the target was John Kerry.
Yup, there it is.
posted by lysdexic at 2:45 PM on September 23, 2008
I remember reading about this in 2004, but in this case the target was John Kerry.
Yup, there it is.
A number of staffers became increasingly upset about Kerry's close relationship with the Department of Defense, which was supposed to be under examination. (Dick Cheney was then defense secretary.) It had become clear that Kerry, Zwenig, and others close to the chairman, such as Senator John McCain of Arizona, a dominant committee member, had gotten cozy with the officials and agencies supposedly being probed for obscuring P.O.W. information over the years. Committee hearings, for example, were being orchestrated to suit the examinees, who were receiving lists of potential questions in advance. Another internal memo from the period, by a staffer who requested anonymity, said: "Speaking for the other investigators, I can say we are sick and tired of this investigation being controlled by those we are supposedly investigating."This article was all about Kerry. Nothing about McCain until now. Not sure what it signifies, except that there's always more than meets the eye.
posted by lysdexic at 2:45 PM on September 23, 2008
Artw I hope your wife does email back. How dare the sender to give you such trash and then basically say, "lalalalalalalal NOT LISTENING if you disagree LALALALA" Screw that. If they can dish it, they can take it.
posted by like_neon at 2:48 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by like_neon at 2:48 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Durhhh I'm still so mad about that email! I'm almost hoping I get one too so I can zip right back, "Sorry, my OPINION is that you're ignorant. Please respect that and don't email me again. Ever." and then link to Miko's awesome comment.
posted by like_neon at 2:56 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by like_neon at 2:56 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh boy. Oh boy.
Just off the presses -- LaTimes/Bloomberg poll shows Obama leading nationally by 12 points (49/37) in a two man race, 48/33 (15 pts) if Barr and Nader are in the picture.
This could be an outlier, of course. Or it could be catching major movement. And it also shows that Barr and Nader hurt McCain worse than Obama on a national level.
15 points. That's outside the f**king margin of error, for sure. Should set some nice talking points in place for the pre-debate blab fest!
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2008
Just off the presses -- LaTimes/Bloomberg poll shows Obama leading nationally by 12 points (49/37) in a two man race, 48/33 (15 pts) if Barr and Nader are in the picture.
This could be an outlier, of course. Or it could be catching major movement. And it also shows that Barr and Nader hurt McCain worse than Obama on a national level.
15 points. That's outside the f**king margin of error, for sure. Should set some nice talking points in place for the pre-debate blab fest!
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2008
My God. If all this info is true and the facts are self-evident enough for the mainstream media to figure out (which is hard to say, since they seem to take a long time to figure anything out of late), then the election is over. Period.
I'm not so sure. While the article casarkos links spends a lot of time making a strong case that there were American prisoners in Vietnam even after Vietnam claimed they had all been returned, only a small part of the article deals with McCain's alleged role in covering this fact up. And I don't see weakening a few pieces of legislation which might have brought that to light being a major source of voter outrage. Schanberg even has to pad out the "McCain's Role" section with speculation about McCain's confession to the Viet Cong, which is hardly relevant to what he's actually done to cover it up.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:11 PM on September 23, 2008
I'm not so sure. While the article casarkos links spends a lot of time making a strong case that there were American prisoners in Vietnam even after Vietnam claimed they had all been returned, only a small part of the article deals with McCain's alleged role in covering this fact up. And I don't see weakening a few pieces of legislation which might have brought that to light being a major source of voter outrage. Schanberg even has to pad out the "McCain's Role" section with speculation about McCain's confession to the Viet Cong, which is hardly relevant to what he's actually done to cover it up.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:11 PM on September 23, 2008
I forgot the link I was so excited. Here is the LATimes/Bloomberg poll.
(I was also excited because in a rare moment of justice, the US Supreme Court just stayed the execution of Troy Davis in Georgia with 2 hours to go . . .)
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:12 PM on September 23, 2008
(I was also excited because in a rare moment of justice, the US Supreme Court just stayed the execution of Troy Davis in Georgia with 2 hours to go . . .)
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:12 PM on September 23, 2008
I love that email, it manages to put the anti-christ, gloria allred, forest gump and bobby kennedy in the proper context. Brilliant!
posted by cell divide at 3:12 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by cell divide at 3:12 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Aw jeez, that was an old poll. My error. Shoot.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2008
I'm not finding this discussion quite as interesting since konolia was silenced.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 3:14 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Crabby Appleton at 3:14 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here is information about the correct *forthcoming* LAT/Bloomberg poll -- they released some numbers but not the presidential topline, which is coming soon, and they are hinting at happy news for Obama in any case. They say the poll shows "deep seated worries" over the economy.
Also, charges dropped against Amy Goodman for Minneapolis. Cool . . ..
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:18 PM on September 23, 2008
Also, charges dropped against Amy Goodman for Minneapolis. Cool . . ..
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:18 PM on September 23, 2008
A producer on Fox-frickin'-News calls bullshit on the lack of Palin access. Between this and George Will getting as close to endorsing Obama as a man like him ever will leads to the question: outside of people who believe that Obama is the Antichrist, how many friends does McCain have left?
posted by Bookhouse at 3:21 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Bookhouse at 3:21 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I was also excited because in a rare moment of justice, the US Supreme Court just stayed the execution of Troy Davis in Georgia with 2 hours to go
woo, good news!
posted by scody at 3:30 PM on September 23, 2008
woo, good news!
posted by scody at 3:30 PM on September 23, 2008
That poll is from June.
posted by cell divide at 4:27 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by cell divide at 4:27 PM on September 23, 2008
Rick Davis's company was taking money from Freddie Mac up until last month.
But, you know, Obama talked to a dude on the phone once, so, like, it's pretty much even.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:02 PM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
But, you know, Obama talked to a dude on the phone once, so, like, it's pretty much even.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:02 PM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Funny how the Oklahoma City bombing and the Texas cyanide gas plot are missing from that list.
The anthrax attacks, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:06 PM on September 23, 2008
casarkos: It looks like McCain may have helped cover up information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
This needs to be in a FPP. I'm in tears right now and my stomach hurts just thinking that McCain could have done this to all of us who never get to know what happened to our family members.
If this is all verifiable, then he should be stripped of his medals, his right to wear the uniform, and any and all pretense of being a fucking war hero. I'm sick to my stomach to think that he parades around the place bleating about his Vietnam trauma and has done this much to keep us from knowing what happened to our fathers, our brothers, our cousins, our sons.
I want him tarred and feathered in POW flags. I want his shackles to be made from the bracelets worn for so long they've caused calluses on the wrists of the families who've waited a lifetime in the hopes that if nothing else, they would get the remains to be buried with the other generations who've served their country.
I'm so angry right now I can't see through the tears. Fuck John McCain. Fuck his stage managed heroism. Fuck his plastic patriotism. Fuck him and his platitudes. Fucking hell, just fuck that bastard.
posted by dejah420 at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
This needs to be in a FPP. I'm in tears right now and my stomach hurts just thinking that McCain could have done this to all of us who never get to know what happened to our family members.
If this is all verifiable, then he should be stripped of his medals, his right to wear the uniform, and any and all pretense of being a fucking war hero. I'm sick to my stomach to think that he parades around the place bleating about his Vietnam trauma and has done this much to keep us from knowing what happened to our fathers, our brothers, our cousins, our sons.
I want him tarred and feathered in POW flags. I want his shackles to be made from the bracelets worn for so long they've caused calluses on the wrists of the families who've waited a lifetime in the hopes that if nothing else, they would get the remains to be buried with the other generations who've served their country.
I'm so angry right now I can't see through the tears. Fuck John McCain. Fuck his stage managed heroism. Fuck his plastic patriotism. Fuck him and his platitudes. Fucking hell, just fuck that bastard.
posted by dejah420 at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
dejah, don't let it get you worked up. I dislike John McCain as much as anyone, but that article was conspiracy theory claptrap.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:48 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 5:48 PM on September 23, 2008
That poll is from June.
I know. Followed the wrong link and got all excited. Actually, despite promising the trial heat number this evening, LA Times has not yet done so for this poll. Looking at the internals they have released, it looks like about the same range as the other national trackers -- 2-4 points in BO's favor.
I agree with Bookhouse -- the McCain vs. POWs story is not solid. And it's a distraction that ends up making dems look like they are attacking his service and his captivity, and lets him raise all that stuff in defense. It also doesn't *matter* -- this election is not going to devolve around demolishing McCain's character, but in establishing Obama's as superior on the metrics of intellect, temperament, and vision. McCain's turned into a scumbag, but there's much to admire in his history too, and I'm with those who say that he'll do a better job of exposing his own slide into deep hypocrisy and cynicism if we avoid directly attacking his character. And certainly we should never attack him with anything that is either not provably true or that is clearly irrelevant to the election at hand. That's what Republicans do.
And maybe that's why George Will, David Brooks, Andrew Sullivan, and other thoughtful and intelligent conservatives will do it for us, anyway.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:05 PM on September 23, 2008
I know. Followed the wrong link and got all excited. Actually, despite promising the trial heat number this evening, LA Times has not yet done so for this poll. Looking at the internals they have released, it looks like about the same range as the other national trackers -- 2-4 points in BO's favor.
I agree with Bookhouse -- the McCain vs. POWs story is not solid. And it's a distraction that ends up making dems look like they are attacking his service and his captivity, and lets him raise all that stuff in defense. It also doesn't *matter* -- this election is not going to devolve around demolishing McCain's character, but in establishing Obama's as superior on the metrics of intellect, temperament, and vision. McCain's turned into a scumbag, but there's much to admire in his history too, and I'm with those who say that he'll do a better job of exposing his own slide into deep hypocrisy and cynicism if we avoid directly attacking his character. And certainly we should never attack him with anything that is either not provably true or that is clearly irrelevant to the election at hand. That's what Republicans do.
And maybe that's why George Will, David Brooks, Andrew Sullivan, and other thoughtful and intelligent conservatives will do it for us, anyway.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:05 PM on September 23, 2008
Sorry if that article was empty conspiracy stuff and I fell for it. Does someone have a good debunk?
posted by casarkos at 6:09 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by casarkos at 6:09 PM on September 23, 2008
What. The. Fuck. McCain?
Here is the video of McCain confronting Alfond in that 1992 committee hearing.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:15 PM on September 23, 2008
Here is the video of McCain confronting Alfond in that 1992 committee hearing.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:15 PM on September 23, 2008
...that article was conspiracy theory claptrap.
Yeah, maybe. But it's worth stressing that that article was written by Sidney Schanberg. Dude won a Pulitzer. They made a movie about him. I'm really skeptical about Vietnam MIA stuff too, but this is not some random tinfoil-hat guy.
posted by neroli at 6:17 PM on September 23, 2008
Yeah, maybe. But it's worth stressing that that article was written by Sidney Schanberg. Dude won a Pulitzer. They made a movie about him. I'm really skeptical about Vietnam MIA stuff too, but this is not some random tinfoil-hat guy.
posted by neroli at 6:17 PM on September 23, 2008
Fair enough. I probably let my general distaste for my theory overly color my reply to the article.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:22 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 6:22 PM on September 23, 2008
Bookhouse said: dejah, don't let it get you worked up. I dislike John McCain as much as anyone, but that article was conspiracy theory claptrap.
Proof of that? Where's the debunking proof? Those documents look awfully official. And I tell you what, when some of your earliest memories are of waiting for someone who never comes...it's a little hard to not get worked up when it seems like someone who *should* have been helping was in fact doing everything in his power to *deter* anyone from helping.
I am the first generation of my family since the American Revolution who hasn't worn a uniform. The primary reason for that is that I believe the government lied about Vietnam, and subsequently about the POWs. My family has lost soldiers on every field of battle, and Vietnam was no exception. Of the three who served, one came home alive, one came home dead, and one never came home.
So, I appreciate that you may think this is all tinfoil asshattery, but unless you've got documentation as strong as those in this Pulitzer Prize winning journalist's article, I advise you not to tell survivors "not to get worked up" about it.
posted by dejah420 at 6:36 PM on September 23, 2008
Proof of that? Where's the debunking proof? Those documents look awfully official. And I tell you what, when some of your earliest memories are of waiting for someone who never comes...it's a little hard to not get worked up when it seems like someone who *should* have been helping was in fact doing everything in his power to *deter* anyone from helping.
I am the first generation of my family since the American Revolution who hasn't worn a uniform. The primary reason for that is that I believe the government lied about Vietnam, and subsequently about the POWs. My family has lost soldiers on every field of battle, and Vietnam was no exception. Of the three who served, one came home alive, one came home dead, and one never came home.
So, I appreciate that you may think this is all tinfoil asshattery, but unless you've got documentation as strong as those in this Pulitzer Prize winning journalist's article, I advise you not to tell survivors "not to get worked up" about it.
posted by dejah420 at 6:36 PM on September 23, 2008
Well, well, well.
Rick Davis has been on Freddie Mac's payroll -- OK, his firm, Davis & Manafort, in which he is an equity partner, on leave for the campaign, has been -- since 2005 and through *last month.* Isikoff is reporting this on the front page of Newsweek tonight; and the New York Times (payback time) has it in equal detail, coming at McCain from all sides tonight.
And the clincher here is that McCain lied about this -- directly saying that Davis had no connection to Freddie Mac -- in a recent TV interview. And some of this reporting is clearly saying that what FM was buying was access to McCain.
Punked, dude.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:42 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Rick Davis has been on Freddie Mac's payroll -- OK, his firm, Davis & Manafort, in which he is an equity partner, on leave for the campaign, has been -- since 2005 and through *last month.* Isikoff is reporting this on the front page of Newsweek tonight; and the New York Times (payback time) has it in equal detail, coming at McCain from all sides tonight.
And the clincher here is that McCain lied about this -- directly saying that Davis had no connection to Freddie Mac -- in a recent TV interview. And some of this reporting is clearly saying that what FM was buying was access to McCain.
Punked, dude.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:42 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here, listen to McCain lie to your face. (YouTube)
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:44 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:44 PM on September 23, 2008
Speaking of scary Muslims, my wife and I got our free, unwanted DVDs of Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West in the mail today. The executive producer of 24 says it's "required viewing for everyone". Well, then! Have you been as lucky as we were? Bonus points for suggestions on what to do with the DVDs.
posted by lukemeister at 6:50 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by lukemeister at 6:50 PM on September 23, 2008
Gov. Sarah Palin on Monday indicated she will cooperate with a separate probe run by people she can fire.
Firing people is a form of change, right?
posted by lukemeister at 6:51 PM on September 23, 2008
Firing people is a form of change, right?
posted by lukemeister at 6:51 PM on September 23, 2008
Regarding the Schanberg article...
I haven't read it thoroughly, let alone tried to fact-check it. But even if you disregard the OMG HUGE COVER-UP stuff, there's this:
He has regularly vilified those who keep trying to pry out classified documents as "hoaxers," charlatans," "conspiracy theorists" and "dime-store Rambos."
Assuming the quotes aren't totally made up out of whole cloth (which really doesn't seem like something The Nation would do), those are the kind of statements that would really offend a large portion of exactly the demographic McCain is trying to win with the "war hero" narrative.
posted by neroli at 6:56 PM on September 23, 2008
I haven't read it thoroughly, let alone tried to fact-check it. But even if you disregard the OMG HUGE COVER-UP stuff, there's this:
He has regularly vilified those who keep trying to pry out classified documents as "hoaxers," charlatans," "conspiracy theorists" and "dime-store Rambos."
Assuming the quotes aren't totally made up out of whole cloth (which really doesn't seem like something The Nation would do), those are the kind of statements that would really offend a large portion of exactly the demographic McCain is trying to win with the "war hero" narrative.
posted by neroli at 6:56 PM on September 23, 2008
Lukemeister: slap an Obama bumpersticker on those suckers and return to sender.
posted by nudar at 6:57 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by nudar at 6:57 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I appreciate that you may think this is all tinfoil asshattery, but unless you've got documentation as strong as those in this Pulitzer Prize winning journalist's article, I advise you not to tell survivors "not to get worked up" about it.
Yeah, I overstated my point, and certainly meant no offense. Mea culpa.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:05 PM on September 23, 2008
Yeah, I overstated my point, and certainly meant no offense. Mea culpa.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:05 PM on September 23, 2008
Speaking of scary Muslims, my wife and I got our free, unwanted DVDs of Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West in the mail today. The executive producer of 24 says it's "required viewing for everyone". Well, then! Have you been as lucky as we were? Bonus points for suggestions on what to do with the DVDs.
I heard they were sending those out in newspapers...if that's the case with you, for starters, I'd cancel my subscription. And write a letter to the editor.
posted by zardoz at 7:05 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I heard they were sending those out in newspapers...if that's the case with you, for starters, I'd cancel my subscription. And write a letter to the editor.
posted by zardoz at 7:05 PM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
zardoz,
No, we got these in the mail. I thought I was safe because I hadn't bought a newspaper in a while.
posted by lukemeister at 7:12 PM on September 23, 2008
No, we got these in the mail. I thought I was safe because I hadn't bought a newspaper in a while.
posted by lukemeister at 7:12 PM on September 23, 2008
I heard they were sending those out in newspapers...if that's the case with you, for starters, I'd cancel my subscription. And write a letter to the editor.
Also, you might want to--hell, everyone here might want to--send a letter of support to the Greenboro (NC) News-Record, the one paper that refused to distribute the DVD.
posted by neroli at 7:15 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
Also, you might want to--hell, everyone here might want to--send a letter of support to the Greenboro (NC) News-Record, the one paper that refused to distribute the DVD.
posted by neroli at 7:15 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
Regarding McCain and POWs, Schanberg wrote the same article about John Kerry four years ago. Unless new facts have emerged since 2004, this seems Swiftboaty to me.
posted by lukemeister at 7:19 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by lukemeister at 7:19 PM on September 23, 2008
Lessig on Palin's "experience" (Blip.tv video)
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:28 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:28 PM on September 23, 2008
Artw I hope your wife does email back.
Well, she went with...
It is true that male muslim extremists brought all of these atrocities on innocents and that is condemnable beyond words. May God protect us from such evil.
Yes, Barack Obama has brown skin. But Barack Obama has never been a muslim - and in fact was raise by a white kansas woman and her parents in Kansas and Hawaii. He met his african, muslim father only once.
This line of logic takes too enormous of a leap for me to find it at all credible.
God save us all if this is the way we choose our leaders. By this reasoning, all white men are evil because Hitler was a white man...and by the way, Hitler considered himself a Christian.
God bless all of you.
I would have gone OMG WTF YOU RACISTS myself, but I guess she was playing the audience.
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on September 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
Well, she went with...
It is true that male muslim extremists brought all of these atrocities on innocents and that is condemnable beyond words. May God protect us from such evil.
Yes, Barack Obama has brown skin. But Barack Obama has never been a muslim - and in fact was raise by a white kansas woman and her parents in Kansas and Hawaii. He met his african, muslim father only once.
This line of logic takes too enormous of a leap for me to find it at all credible.
God save us all if this is the way we choose our leaders. By this reasoning, all white men are evil because Hitler was a white man...and by the way, Hitler considered himself a Christian.
God bless all of you.
I would have gone OMG WTF YOU RACISTS myself, but I guess she was playing the audience.
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on September 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
lukemeister said: Regarding McCain and POWs, Schanberg wrote the same article about John Kerry four years ago. Unless new facts have emerged since 2004, this seems Swiftboaty to me.
I think the thing you're not realizing is that he has been writing about Southeast Asia for 50 years, with the majority of his focus having been on Cambodia and Vietnam. He's written more words about POWs than almost anyone. The article you linked isn't "the same" article at all. It mentions some of the same people and committees...because those are the committees and people who were in charge of those arenas.
For more background on the coverage he's given to the POWs and MIAs, I refer you to
Did America Abandon Vietnam War P.O.W.'s? Part 1, which was written and published in the September 1994 issue of Penthouse magazine. The story you linked was published in 2004. The article I referenced was published in the last few days and will see print in an October issue.
He's been following this story for a long, long time. To accuse him of partisanship or "swiftboating" seems way off the mark to me.
posted by dejah420 at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2008
I think the thing you're not realizing is that he has been writing about Southeast Asia for 50 years, with the majority of his focus having been on Cambodia and Vietnam. He's written more words about POWs than almost anyone. The article you linked isn't "the same" article at all. It mentions some of the same people and committees...because those are the committees and people who were in charge of those arenas.
For more background on the coverage he's given to the POWs and MIAs, I refer you to
Did America Abandon Vietnam War P.O.W.'s? Part 1, which was written and published in the September 1994 issue of Penthouse magazine. The story you linked was published in 2004. The article I referenced was published in the last few days and will see print in an October issue.
He's been following this story for a long, long time. To accuse him of partisanship or "swiftboating" seems way off the mark to me.
posted by dejah420 at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2008
dejah420,
I'm sorry for your loss. My real point was that, as far as I can tell, Schanberg's piece about McCain contains no new information, so I don't see the value in republishing old allegations.
posted by lukemeister at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2008
I'm sorry for your loss. My real point was that, as far as I can tell, Schanberg's piece about McCain contains no new information, so I don't see the value in republishing old allegations.
posted by lukemeister at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2008
"I ghost wrote letters to the editor for the McCain campaign". (Salon link, sorry).
"I spent a morning in John McCain's Virginia campaign headquarters ghost-writing letters to the editor for McCain supporters to sign. I even pretended to have a son in Iraq."
That's straight talk for you.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:23 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
"I spent a morning in John McCain's Virginia campaign headquarters ghost-writing letters to the editor for McCain supporters to sign. I even pretended to have a son in Iraq."
That's straight talk for you.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:23 PM on September 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
Well, here we are, more than a week into the thread's history, and when we started we were all worried about the polls.
Tonight's bombshell: ABC/WashPo, Obama 52/McCain 43 likely voters, really consistent and solid internals that show Obama closing the deal with independents, and winning white women. If the poll is an outlier, it's a remarkably convincing one.
That's 9 points. We need to make it 15 and we need to watch for dirty tricks, but this week is some vindication of the intelligence of enough of the American people to make a difference. You cannot like with impunity when the stakes are obvious.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:53 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Tonight's bombshell: ABC/WashPo, Obama 52/McCain 43 likely voters, really consistent and solid internals that show Obama closing the deal with independents, and winning white women. If the poll is an outlier, it's a remarkably convincing one.
That's 9 points. We need to make it 15 and we need to watch for dirty tricks, but this week is some vindication of the intelligence of enough of the American people to make a difference. You cannot like with impunity when the stakes are obvious.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:53 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I like those poll results with impunity!
posted by Bookhouse at 9:57 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Bookhouse at 9:57 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fuck me but that Salon link is depressing and distressing.
posted by cgc373 at 10:07 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by cgc373 at 10:07 PM on September 23, 2008
That's quite a link, i_am-joe's_spleen. Recommended read - or here's an excerpt for the gist:
"You can be whoever you want to be," says an inviting Phil Tuchman. "You can be a beggar or a millionaire. A mom or a husband. Whatever. You decide!"posted by Miko at 10:19 PM on September 23, 2008 [6 favorites]
I volunteer in political campaigns now and then. After a series of outings for Obama and a first mission as a phone banker for John McCain, I returned to McCain's headquarters in Arlington, Va. The offer was too alluring to delay -- they wanted to put me into action as a ghostwriter.
...The assignment is simple: We are going to write letters to the editor and we are allowed to make up whatever we want -- as long as it adds to the campaign. After today we are supposed to use our free moments at home to create a flow of fictional fan mail for McCain. "Your letters," says Phil Tuchman, "will be sent to our campaign offices in battle states. Ohio. Pennsylvania. Virginia. New Hampshire. There we'll place them in local newspapers."
Place them? I may be wrong, but I thought that in the USA only a newspaper's editors decided that.
"We will show your letters to our supporters in those states," explains Phil. "If they say: 'Yeah, he/she is right!' then we ask them to sign your letter. And then we send that letter to the local newspaper. That's how we send dozens of letters at once."
The article is supported with the McCain-Palin Talking Points.
I'm pretty appalled by this. It goes a step beyond the standard practice to instruct volunteers to make up a specific identity, write a letter as if from that imagined person, and then shop the letter around to a signer. The Democratic office also has sample letters, but they instruct people to use them as generic examples and then write their own, genuine letters - never once have I heard anyone tell another person to "be whoever you want to be" or organize a dissemination service for a ghostwritten letter. That's plain sleazy.'
For comparison, here are the Obama Talking Points given to NH letter writers (sorry, can't find a way to link it without putting all my private contact info up, but would MeMail anyone who cares the link. Or you can look up your own state's guidelines here:
Simply share your story—the most powerful voice will be your own.
Taxes:
Barack Obama wants the tax code to be fairer—to favor honest, hard-working Americans and seniors.
•He has proposed a $1,000 tax cut for middle class families, and he wants to lower the taxes paid by seniors.
•Senator Obama wants to eliminate income taxes for seniors making less than $50,000. This will provide an immediate tax cut averaging $1,400 to 7 million seniors and relieve 27 million seniors from the burden of filing tax returns. For millions of seniors, this will eliminate the need to hire a tax preparer, resulting in even larger savings.
Senator McCain’s policies favor tax breaks for big oil over New Hampshire residents.
•McCain’s plan gives $4 billion dollars in new tax breaks to big oil companies even though they’re raking in profits due to higher gas prices.
•McCain’s economic plan would offer a tax break worth $1 billion dollars each to the 8 largest corporations in America, including 1.2 billion dollars to Exxon alone.
•McCain’s economic plan leaves out 101 million American households, providing no tax breaks to those hard-working Americans, while giving tax breaks of 270 thousand dollars to the top tenth of a percent of households who make over 2.8 million a year.
LIHEAP:
With fewer funds available and higher home heating costs, the local number at the LIHEAP office has become a crisis hotline for New Hampshire families.
•More than 32,000 New Hampshire families relied on LIHEAP last winter to keep the heat on. Heating oil prices are expected to rise 50% or more this year.
•This means thousands more New Hampshire residents who qualify for heating assistance can be expected to apply for it this winter, making already scarce funds harder to come by.
•John McCain has voted against LIHEAP funding five times since 2005.
•Senator Obama has voted to increase LIHEAP funding five times since 2005.
•Hard-working Americans should not have to choose between putting food on the table and heating their homes.
•We can’t afford four more years of failed Bush-McCain economic policies. New Hampshire cannot afford to be left out in the cold by John McCain.
Five goals to keep America safe and prosperous:
•As President, Barack Obama will lead this country in a new direction by focusing on five goals essential to making America safer:
•Ending the war in Iraq responsibly. Obama will change our mission and end the war by responsibly redeploying our combat troops and pushing Iraq’s leaders toward a political solution. We can safely remove our combat brigades at a pace of one to two combat brigades per month, and complete our redeployment in 16 months.
•Finishing the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban. Obama will send at least two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan and offer greater assistance to Afghanistan’s military and judiciary—and investing in growth from the bottom up. And he’ll increase nonmilitary aid to Pakistan and step up security in the border region with Afghanistan.
•Securing all nuclear weapons and materials from terrorists and rogue nations. Obama will lead a global effort to secure all loose nuclear materials around the world during his first term as President. And because we can’t allow Iran to develop a nuclear weapon, Obama will use all elements of American power to pressure the Iranian regime, starting with aggressive, principled, and direct diplomacy backed by strong sanctions.
•Achieving true energy security. Global warming and our dependence on oil from hostile nations add up to a national security crisis. As President, Obama will end our dependence on foreign oil by investing $150 billion in renewable and alternative energy over the next ten years—an investment that will create millions of jobs along the way.
•Rebuilding our alliances to meet the challenges of the 21st century. Obama will reinvigorate longstanding diplomatic efforts around the world and launch new ones. He’ll double our foreign assistance to $50 billion by 2012 so that we can help bring stability to failing states, cut global poverty in half, fight poverty and disease, and support sustainable growth.
Metafilter: hoaxers," charlatans," "conspiracy theorists" and "dime-store Rambos." & placemarkers
posted by Rumple at 11:50 PM on September 23, 2008
posted by Rumple at 11:50 PM on September 23, 2008
Speaking of Luis Tiant, and teams that finally figure out how to win the big one . . .
Red Sox clinched a playoff berth last night!
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:13 AM on September 24, 2008
Red Sox clinched a playoff berth last night!
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:13 AM on September 24, 2008
Amazed this hasn't been linked here -- or maybe it has? But this vid is a huge hit in the ether at the moment -- CNN's Campbell Brown calls out the McCain campaign as "sexist" for hiding Sarah Palin from tough questions. The mock sincerity hides a real edge -- revolt of the courtiers underway? You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll be amazed.
Huffpo link because it's nicer quality vid than the youtube going around that looks like someone shot a TV set with a VHS camera.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:51 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Huffpo link because it's nicer quality vid than the youtube going around that looks like someone shot a TV set with a VHS camera.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:51 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
And Nate Silver at 538 does it again, with an amazing peek inside the manipulation of the betting markets for the election - and suggests that someone is gaming intrade. It's scare mathematical forensic work. Gave me the creeps.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:06 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:06 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Palin, it should be noted, will be taking questions from CBS's Katie Couric on Wednesday.
Woo. That should be about as hard hitting as a marshmallow kitten. What a joke. May as well have Big Bird interview her.
posted by like_neon at 6:18 AM on September 24, 2008 [7 favorites]
Woo. That should be about as hard hitting as a marshmallow kitten. What a joke. May as well have Big Bird interview her.
posted by like_neon at 6:18 AM on September 24, 2008 [7 favorites]
And the clincher here is that McCain lied about this -- directly saying that Davis had no connection to Freddie Mac...
The biggest story of the campaign
The biggest story of the campaign
Mark this day down. Today – last night, actually – the New York Times and Roll Call reported (it's hard to see who was first) what may be the biggest political story of the campaign. How big? John McCain might have to fire his campaign manager. Big enough?posted by ericb at 6:23 AM on September 24, 2008 [7 favorites]
The story is this. The lobbying firm of Rick Davis, the manager, was being paid $15,000 a month by Freddie Mac until last month. That fact is a direct contradiction of words McCain had spoken Sunday night. At that time, responding to a Times story being prepared for Monday's paper revealing that Davis had been the head of a lobbying consortium led by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae until 2005, McCain said Davis had done no further work for either mortgage giant.
Someone's lying – either Davis to McCain, or McCain to the public. I trust you see the problem here.
The stories are here, by David Kirkpatrick (whose reporting on this topic has been leading the way) and Jackie Calmes of the Times, and here, by Tory Newmeyer of Roll Call. You should definitely read every word of both. I think after you do you'll agree that, depending on how big the pick-up is today and how hard the Obama camp presses this, it's pretty difficult to see how Davis can stay on as campaign manager.
The revelations are devastating for two reasons. First, as I noted above, either Davis lied to McCain or McCain lied to the voters. From the Times story:'On Sunday, in an interview with CNBC and The Times, Mr. McCain responded to a question about that tie between Mr. Davis and the two mortgage companies by saying that he "has had nothing to do with it since, and I'll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it."'Who lied to whom? This is the kind of thing we might not know for a while, or maybe never. My hunch would be that Davis concealed it from McCain and that McCain, as is his wont, just winged it Sunday night, without really caring whether it was true, because that's what he does. But let me clearly label that a hunch. I don't know. But it doesn't really matter.
The second reason this is devastating is maybe even bigger than the question of the Sunday lie, which is limited in scope after all to a sort of narrow legal question. The second reason is that McCain has been going around putting lobbyists, specifically for Fannie & Freddie, at the heart of the whole problem." [more]
ABC/WashPo, Obama 52/McCain 43 likely voters
Just for kicks, here's roughly what that kind of popular vote margin would look like in the Electoral College. I don't think we're likely to get that kind of landslide, but those numbers look awfully hard for McCain to come back from, barring some kind of major game-changer. Check out the results with third-party candidates included: Obama 51 McCain 41 Barr 1 Nader 3. That puts McCain ten points back with only about four percent of voters still undecided. It's not over till it's over, but if you feel like making some easy money, I'd recommend buying up some of those Obama contracts at Intrade while they're still hovering around 50%.
posted by EarBucket at 6:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just for kicks, here's roughly what that kind of popular vote margin would look like in the Electoral College. I don't think we're likely to get that kind of landslide, but those numbers look awfully hard for McCain to come back from, barring some kind of major game-changer. Check out the results with third-party candidates included: Obama 51 McCain 41 Barr 1 Nader 3. That puts McCain ten points back with only about four percent of voters still undecided. It's not over till it's over, but if you feel like making some easy money, I'd recommend buying up some of those Obama contracts at Intrade while they're still hovering around 50%.
posted by EarBucket at 6:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Steve Waldman of Beiefnet - Is the political alliance between Catholics and Evangelicals "fraying"?
Apropos of various themes upthread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:40 AM on September 24, 2008
Apropos of various themes upthread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:40 AM on September 24, 2008
> But Barack Obama has never been a muslim
wow, imagine the shitstorm if obama was muslim...
posted by dhruva at 8:05 AM on September 24, 2008
wow, imagine the shitstorm if obama was muslim...
posted by dhruva at 8:05 AM on September 24, 2008
Ta-Nehisi Coates argues that McCain has badly misunderstood the reasons for Obama's success:
For weeks we heard this ridiculous line of argument that Palin brought the same "excitement" and "energy" to the table as Obama, thus equalizing the race. That is exactly the sort fatal underestimation that is going to get John McCain murked in November.
Obama isn't Obama because he is more "exciting" or had more "heat" or "energy." He's Obama because his handlers had a deft understanding of caucus rules, because they understood the promise of the Dean/Trippi internet strategy, because they understood the ground game. Fuck all the rhetorical flourishes, all the talk of "exotic" lineage, all Ivy League pedigree, all the hoary meditation on the impact of a black president. It's all bullshit. If Obama doesn't hang eleven straight on Team Clinton in February then we'd all be talking about the dream of Susan B. Anthony. If Hillary Clinton's people understood the rules the way Obama's people did, then McCain would be running ads attacking The Restoration.
posted by EarBucket at 8:12 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
For weeks we heard this ridiculous line of argument that Palin brought the same "excitement" and "energy" to the table as Obama, thus equalizing the race. That is exactly the sort fatal underestimation that is going to get John McCain murked in November.
Obama isn't Obama because he is more "exciting" or had more "heat" or "energy." He's Obama because his handlers had a deft understanding of caucus rules, because they understood the promise of the Dean/Trippi internet strategy, because they understood the ground game. Fuck all the rhetorical flourishes, all the talk of "exotic" lineage, all Ivy League pedigree, all the hoary meditation on the impact of a black president. It's all bullshit. If Obama doesn't hang eleven straight on Team Clinton in February then we'd all be talking about the dream of Susan B. Anthony. If Hillary Clinton's people understood the rules the way Obama's people did, then McCain would be running ads attacking The Restoration.
posted by EarBucket at 8:12 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Obama Scales Back His 50-State Strategy
…it's now down to 48 — you can cross Alaska and North Dakota off the list — and two other states, Montana and Georgia, are on life support…posted by jepler at 9:31 AM on September 24, 2008
> But Barack Obama has never been a muslim
wow, imagine the shitstorm if obama was muslim...
Why? He's not. End of story.
posted by Big_B at 9:40 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
wow, imagine the shitstorm if obama was muslim...
Why? He's not. End of story.
posted by Big_B at 9:40 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You could have just linked to that, Rhaomi. No need to cut and paste the whole thing. This isn't /.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:11 AM on September 24, 2008
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:11 AM on September 24, 2008
Best nickname evah for Sarah Palin . . . saw this on a discussion board this am:
"Churchy Spice."
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:14 AM on September 24, 2008 [5 favorites]
"Churchy Spice."
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:14 AM on September 24, 2008 [5 favorites]
imagine the shitstorm if obama was muslim
Or, better yet, imagine the shitstorm if McCain was the scheming, manipulative political cynic a bunch of us have been claiming he is for years.
Oh, wait.
posted by hifiparasol at 10:19 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Or, better yet, imagine the shitstorm if McCain was the scheming, manipulative political cynic a bunch of us have been claiming he is for years.
Oh, wait.
posted by hifiparasol at 10:19 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Pre-release of some internals from tonight's much anticipated NBC/WSJ poll:
Forty-nine percent say that Palin is unqualified to be president if the need arises, compared with 40 percent who say she's qualified.
By contrast, 64 percent believe Biden is qualified to be president, versus just 21 percent who disagree.
LOL.
BTW -- Barack is about to speak in Dunedin, FL. Warmup acts on now. Streaming on BarackObama.com or CNN.
And our fearless leader George "What Me Worry?" Bush will address the nation about the financial crisis this evening. Good timing for McCain to remind everyone in America just who has been in charge for the last 8 years. Mr. 19 percent himself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:20 AM on September 24, 2008
Forty-nine percent say that Palin is unqualified to be president if the need arises, compared with 40 percent who say she's qualified.
By contrast, 64 percent believe Biden is qualified to be president, versus just 21 percent who disagree.
LOL.
BTW -- Barack is about to speak in Dunedin, FL. Warmup acts on now. Streaming on BarackObama.com or CNN.
And our fearless leader George "What Me Worry?" Bush will address the nation about the financial crisis this evening. Good timing for McCain to remind everyone in America just who has been in charge for the last 8 years. Mr. 19 percent himself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:20 AM on September 24, 2008
Rick Davis, like Palin, is running from the media, under scandal.
"The New York Times, under fire from the McCain camp over an earlier piece probing McCain campaign manager Rick Davis, responded today with a second piece that hits Davis very hard, reporting that Davis' lobbying firm received a monthly sum of $15,000 from Freddie Mac up until last month.
Now comes word that Davis has quietly canceled a gathering he was supposed to hold with reporters today."
TPM
How could anybody vote for these jokers? McCain is looking you right in the eye, daily, and lying to you. And it's not even something you have to go back months or years to investigate - he's doing it every few days, and it's being documented in real time! Then when it's time to face the music, McCain's people run from the media. McCain's VP pick Palin still hasn't given a press conference. McCain's campaign manager is under fire and canceling meetings with the media, running as well. McCain's staff member Fiorina got millions in a golden parachute. Tucker Bounds is the lyingest liar that ever lied, as CNN's Campbell Brown found out.
It's right there in front of your face, reported in reputable publications, and even starting to be picked up by fox news. Come on!
posted by cashman at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
"The New York Times, under fire from the McCain camp over an earlier piece probing McCain campaign manager Rick Davis, responded today with a second piece that hits Davis very hard, reporting that Davis' lobbying firm received a monthly sum of $15,000 from Freddie Mac up until last month.
Now comes word that Davis has quietly canceled a gathering he was supposed to hold with reporters today."
TPM
How could anybody vote for these jokers? McCain is looking you right in the eye, daily, and lying to you. And it's not even something you have to go back months or years to investigate - he's doing it every few days, and it's being documented in real time! Then when it's time to face the music, McCain's people run from the media. McCain's VP pick Palin still hasn't given a press conference. McCain's campaign manager is under fire and canceling meetings with the media, running as well. McCain's staff member Fiorina got millions in a golden parachute. Tucker Bounds is the lyingest liar that ever lied, as CNN's Campbell Brown found out.
It's right there in front of your face, reported in reputable publications, and even starting to be picked up by fox news. Come on!
posted by cashman at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Sorry about that, guys. I'd posted the full piece because I figured it would have more effect if it weren't immediately obvious it was from the Onion. Then again, WALL OF TEXT!
posted by Rhaomi at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2008
posted by Rhaomi at 10:29 AM on September 24, 2008
These aren't spirit fingers. THESE ARE SPIRIT FINGERS.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Actually, I was messing around with some 50-state-strategy numbers last night. There were eleven states that W. carried by more than 60% in 2004. Here's where they were last night for McCain, according to pollster.com.
IN...60.1% > 47.7% (21% drop)
ND...62.9% > 52.5% (16% drop)
AL...62.5% > 55.1% (12% drop)
NE...66.6% > 59.5% (11% drop)
UT...71.1% > 63.9% (10% drop)
WY...69.0% > 62.0% (10% drop)
ID...68.5% > 62.1% (9% drop)
TX...61.2% > 55.9% (9% drop)
AK...61.8% > 56.7% (8% drop)
OK...65.6% > 62.0% (5% drop)
KS...62.2% > 59.6% (4% drop)
Indiana goes from a 21-point win to a battleground state, Gov. Palin's Alaska is currently 5 points less Republican than it was in '04, and the Republican 60-point blowout states go from eleven to four, with every one losing substantial support (most over 10%). Not that the margin of victory matters to the electoral college, but it's encouraging to see.
(PS: What's the Matter With Kansas?)
posted by ormondsacker at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
IN...60.1% > 47.7% (21% drop)
ND...62.9% > 52.5% (16% drop)
AL...62.5% > 55.1% (12% drop)
NE...66.6% > 59.5% (11% drop)
UT...71.1% > 63.9% (10% drop)
WY...69.0% > 62.0% (10% drop)
ID...68.5% > 62.1% (9% drop)
TX...61.2% > 55.9% (9% drop)
AK...61.8% > 56.7% (8% drop)
OK...65.6% > 62.0% (5% drop)
KS...62.2% > 59.6% (4% drop)
Indiana goes from a 21-point win to a battleground state, Gov. Palin's Alaska is currently 5 points less Republican than it was in '04, and the Republican 60-point blowout states go from eleven to four, with every one losing substantial support (most over 10%). Not that the margin of victory matters to the electoral college, but it's encouraging to see.
(PS: What's the Matter With Kansas?)
posted by ormondsacker at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fox News poll (!) shows it O-45/M-39 (registered voters).
And John McCain's makeup artist, Tiffanie White, has worked for American Idol and So You Think You Can Dance . . . He's paid her almost $6000 to hide his ugly mug on TV to date.
You cannot make this shit up. And they went after Edwards for a haircut? Obama as a "celebrity?"
Hell, in fact, I recall the McCain himself is reported to have gone after his wife for wearing too much makeup.
McCain needs a new campaign song, and I'm sure Tom Petty won't mind if he uses it:
Cuz I'm free/free fallin'
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:28 AM on September 24, 2008
And John McCain's makeup artist, Tiffanie White, has worked for American Idol and So You Think You Can Dance . . . He's paid her almost $6000 to hide his ugly mug on TV to date.
You cannot make this shit up. And they went after Edwards for a haircut? Obama as a "celebrity?"
Hell, in fact, I recall the McCain himself is reported to have gone after his wife for wearing too much makeup.
McCain needs a new campaign song, and I'm sure Tom Petty won't mind if he uses it:
Cuz I'm free/free fallin'
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:28 AM on September 24, 2008
Ack, sorry -- Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll results
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:30 AM on September 24, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:30 AM on September 24, 2008
fourcheesemac> And Nate Silver at 538 does it again, with an amazing peek inside the manipulation of the betting markets for the election - and suggests that someone is gaming intrade. It's scare mathematical forensic work. Gave me the creeps.
This is the sort of thing which makes me wonder what Surowiecki is thinking when he lauds the predictive ability of these markets. They completely failed to catch Gore's popular vote win in 2000 and whipsawed wildly in 2004.
I think that Silver is reading too much into the Barack winning and Hillary winning markets. He sees them as a sign of some nut planning (or at least hoping for) an Obama assassination. It seems more likely to me that given how little volume is in these markets, they are easily moved by someone hoping to make it seem as if McCain is currently stronger than he actually is.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2008
This is the sort of thing which makes me wonder what Surowiecki is thinking when he lauds the predictive ability of these markets. They completely failed to catch Gore's popular vote win in 2000 and whipsawed wildly in 2004.
I think that Silver is reading too much into the Barack winning and Hillary winning markets. He sees them as a sign of some nut planning (or at least hoping for) an Obama assassination. It seems more likely to me that given how little volume is in these markets, they are easily moved by someone hoping to make it seem as if McCain is currently stronger than he actually is.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2008
UrineSoakedRube: "I think that Silver is reading too much into the Barack winning and Hillary winning markets. He sees them as a sign of some nut planning (or at least hoping for) an Obama assassination."
He's since said in the comments that he doesn't think the assassination scenario is a likely one, but that it is still the Secret Service's duty to investigate improbable threats.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:41 AM on September 24, 2008
He's since said in the comments that he doesn't think the assassination scenario is a likely one, but that it is still the Secret Service's duty to investigate improbable threats.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:41 AM on September 24, 2008
Looks like you were right, en pounds of inedita. Apparently McCain is "suspending his campaign" and wants to delay the first debate in order to deal with the financial crisis. (Breaking news, no link)
Knock me over with a feather.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:06 PM on September 24, 2008
Knock me over with a feather.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:06 PM on September 24, 2008
McCain seeks to delay debate to focus on economy
NEW YORK (AP) - Republican John McCain says he's directing his staff to work with Barack Obama's campaign and the debate commission to delay Friday's debate because of the economic crisis.posted by peeedro at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2008
In a statement, McCain says he will stop campaigning after addressing former President Bill Clinton's Global Initiative session on Thursday and return to Washington to focus on the nation's financial problems.
McCain also said he wants President Bush to convene a leadership meeting in Washington. Both he and Obama would attend the session
Um, I meant to link to this comment by ten pounds of inedita.
I guess I am just so darned inspired by this totally selfless push for bipartisanship on the part of Sen. McCain that I can't even attribute correctly.
Obama's camp is rejecting the deal according to CNN, btw.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2008
I guess I am just so darned inspired by this totally selfless push for bipartisanship on the part of Sen. McCain that I can't even attribute correctly.
Obama's camp is rejecting the deal according to CNN, btw.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2008
Hmm, McCain wants to delay Friday's debate?
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:17 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:17 PM on September 24, 2008
Whoops -- this thread takes so long to load that three comments can come in while one is posting.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2008
I ungigantopasted it.
Good, I was getting gigantopasty from staying indoors reading this thread.
posted by lukemeister at 12:19 PM on September 24, 2008
Good, I was getting gigantopasty from staying indoors reading this thread.
posted by lukemeister at 12:19 PM on September 24, 2008
Yep, ten pounds of inedita wins the soothsaying prize. Pretty impressive.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2008
I'm moving to that thread. Because MCain is really bringing out the crazy.
posted by Miko at 12:33 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by Miko at 12:33 PM on September 24, 2008
Oh I am so glad someone made a new thread before we had the Palin II: Electric Caribou thread on our hands. Good move, fcm.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2008 [9 favorites]
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2008 [9 favorites]
Or rather, good move, parmanparman; good move to fcm for, um, pointing it out to the rest of us. Heh.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:54 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:54 PM on September 24, 2008
Palin II: Electric Caribou
I convulsed I laughed so hard.
posted by cashman at 1:16 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
I convulsed I laughed so hard.
posted by cashman at 1:16 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't think my prediction was all that impressive. I'm not even an American; I just thought it was obvious that something like this would happen.
I wouldn't be surprised now if there are no debates. McCain tells Obama to debate himself on Friday and then cancels the remaining presidential debates and the VP debate because Obama is, I dunno, too adversarial or because it doesn't serve the process or the people or whatever.
Having debates hurts McCain. Having Palin debate kills his campaign utterly. Weaseling out of them by whatever means he can muster can only help him.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:35 PM on September 24, 2008
I wouldn't be surprised now if there are no debates. McCain tells Obama to debate himself on Friday and then cancels the remaining presidential debates and the VP debate because Obama is, I dunno, too adversarial or because it doesn't serve the process or the people or whatever.
Having debates hurts McCain. Having Palin debate kills his campaign utterly. Weaseling out of them by whatever means he can muster can only help him.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:35 PM on September 24, 2008
Off to lurk in the new thread. I haven't checked in a while, but how's The Thread kicking in it's final week?
posted by yeti at 2:55 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by yeti at 2:55 PM on September 24, 2008
Ooh, yeah, now that I think of it, McCain's already framing the debates like this by repeating the irrelevancy that Obama wouldn't agree to ten 'town hall' meetings.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 8:13 PM on September 24, 2008
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 8:13 PM on September 24, 2008
Palin still running from the American people.
posted by cashman at 7:40 AM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]
"McCain spokesman Michael Goldfarb said Palin will do more interviews and hold at least one news conference before Election Day.Bullshit. This is an American people issue. This freak could easily be president, and you're telling me she might have done one - ONE news conference where she's forced to answer questions in real time in front of the nation? "At least one"? They just make up ridiculous lies and then swallow them whole themselves, and try to believe so strongly in them that you have to either call them on it or accept it. This shit is bananas.
"I know the media is throwing a temper tantrum about this," Goldfarb said. But, he said, "she was so beat up the first week when she came on and this campaign has had fraught relations with the media ever since. There's just not a tremendous amount of concern. The campaign is resolved not to allow the media to dictate her schedule. . . . This is mainly an inside-the-Beltway issue."
posted by cashman at 7:40 AM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]
Run run run, Sarah Palin. Palin won't reveal her finances until after debate.
posted by cashman at 8:51 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by cashman at 8:51 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]
Well, of course not, that would be against everything she stands for.
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on September 25, 2008
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on September 25, 2008
Affidavits revealed? No idea if this is legit. "According to The NATIONAL ENQUIRER, three members of the man’s family, including one by sworn affidavit, have claimed that Palin engaged in an affair with husband Todd’s former business partner, Brad Hanson."
I've watched a few of the Palin interviews, just out of morbid curiousity.
My god, she's dumber than a rock. What an incomprehensible campaign strategy. The only explanation I've ever encountered that makes any sense is that the Republican party is deliberately throwing the election. Maybe so they can shaft the Democratic party with the Greater Depression.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:22 PM on September 25, 2008
I've watched a few of the Palin interviews, just out of morbid curiousity.
My god, she's dumber than a rock. What an incomprehensible campaign strategy. The only explanation I've ever encountered that makes any sense is that the Republican party is deliberately throwing the election. Maybe so they can shaft the Democratic party with the Greater Depression.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:22 PM on September 25, 2008
Rewatch this video. I know it's an anti-palin video calling her out on her support of the bridge (and road) to nowhere, but rewatch it. She seems like an excellent speaker and debate participant.
Granted, she could just be out of her league when it comes to the national stage, but...think she's playing possum a bit perhaps?
posted by cashman at 3:11 PM on September 27, 2008
Granted, she could just be out of her league when it comes to the national stage, but...think she's playing possum a bit perhaps?
posted by cashman at 3:11 PM on September 27, 2008
I think Christopher Orr nails it:
I'm reminded of the situation you see every now and then in sports, when a talented athlete--which, conveniently enough, Palin was--gets a taste of heavy duty coaching and, rather than being built up, is broken down, losing confidence in his game, becoming tentative, second-guessing himself even to the point of paralysis. I don't know whether that's what's happened to Sarah Palin. But from where I sit, it sure looks like it.
posted by EarBucket at 3:15 PM on September 27, 2008
I'm reminded of the situation you see every now and then in sports, when a talented athlete--which, conveniently enough, Palin was--gets a taste of heavy duty coaching and, rather than being built up, is broken down, losing confidence in his game, becoming tentative, second-guessing himself even to the point of paralysis. I don't know whether that's what's happened to Sarah Palin. But from where I sit, it sure looks like it.
posted by EarBucket at 3:15 PM on September 27, 2008
"I know the media is throwing a temper tantrum about this," Goldfarb said. But, he said, "she was so beat up the first week when she came on and this campaign has had fraught relations with the media ever since. There's just not a tremendous amount of concern. The campaign is resolved not to allow the media to dictate her schedule. . . . This is mainly an inside-the-Beltway issue."
Obnoxious. And false. It's an issue I've heard a bunch of not-that-political people talking about. Besides which, what, we're supposed to feel sorry that she felt "beat up" and "fraught" by her discussions with the media? What the hell does she think the VP job is all about? Does she not get that she has to converse with the most powerful people in the world, and be subject not only to review by our own media, but that of all the world's nations - which isn't always quite as polite as ours? If she can't take the heat, she hasn't got what it takes.
she's playing possum a bit perhaps?
I too have been wondering a little about whether she's purposely underwhelming now so that in an eventual debate she can appear to exceed expectations just by being not a TOTAL idiot. It's the kind of Scooby Doo move that's so crazy, it just might work. But I think that's a stretch - it'd be Rovey, and they have failed to be Rovey so far. And by all accounts, she's much better versed on Alaska issues, which she's had a chance to practicve talking about, than on non-Alaska (read: all other) issues.
posted by Miko at 3:20 PM on September 27, 2008
Obnoxious. And false. It's an issue I've heard a bunch of not-that-political people talking about. Besides which, what, we're supposed to feel sorry that she felt "beat up" and "fraught" by her discussions with the media? What the hell does she think the VP job is all about? Does she not get that she has to converse with the most powerful people in the world, and be subject not only to review by our own media, but that of all the world's nations - which isn't always quite as polite as ours? If she can't take the heat, she hasn't got what it takes.
she's playing possum a bit perhaps?
I too have been wondering a little about whether she's purposely underwhelming now so that in an eventual debate she can appear to exceed expectations just by being not a TOTAL idiot. It's the kind of Scooby Doo move that's so crazy, it just might work. But I think that's a stretch - it'd be Rovey, and they have failed to be Rovey so far. And by all accounts, she's much better versed on Alaska issues, which she's had a chance to practicve talking about, than on non-Alaska (read: all other) issues.
posted by Miko at 3:20 PM on September 27, 2008
Oh, also, in those bridge-to-nowhere videos, she's reciting the same set of talking points over and over. Anyone gets good at that. It doesn't reflect any actual thinking (the repetition of "stand in the way of progress" is a giveaway). They are also all planned performances involving the reading of a prepared speech or the remembering of a prepared statement. An interview with a journalist, or a debate, are totally different situations. You don't know what you will be asked, and can't prepare a statement in advance. Nor can you call on your repertoire of memorized issue statements when they're all tightly Alaskan in nature.
posted by Miko at 3:30 PM on September 27, 2008
posted by Miko at 3:30 PM on September 27, 2008
You have a point, but at the same time I'd be wary were I Biden. The common way to play it seems to suggest he just squash her over time and not pounce, so as to avoid being cast as a meanie who bullies the woman. But if he does that she might sock him right in the jaw and have him all flustered. I just happened to rewatch that video and all of a sudden she wasn't stupid at all.
posted by cashman at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2008
posted by cashman at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2008
An interesting strand seems to be emerging in some of the writing about Palin. I'd call it "empathetic opposition." It seems to have grown out of the the "John McCain is a sexist for shielding Palin from the media" line that Campbell Brown took in that spot cited above. But, after the debacle of the Couric interview, this got tinged with "I feel sorry for Sarah Palin. She's obviously in over her head."
It's interesting because it mirrors what has been the supposedly been the favorable reaction from the public--"I identify with her. She's just like me"--but turns it on its head. It's expressed most fully in Judith Warner's NYT essay, which concludes: "Palin’s nomination isn’t just an insult to the women (and men) of America. It’s an act of cruelty toward her as well."
Ta-Nehisi Coates did something more with that in a post yesterday--an essay which somehow managed to say both "The Palin choice is all about playing on white resentment" and "I understand exactly why she is so appealing, because my background is similar to hers." It's a messy piece, obviously written on the fly, but it's incredibly moving and gets at the complex intersections of race and class going on in a really nuanced way.
Anyhow, I have a feeling that the Palin story is going to be back on the table next week, and we're about to see a few new wrinkles emerge
posted by neroli at 4:50 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's interesting because it mirrors what has been the supposedly been the favorable reaction from the public--"I identify with her. She's just like me"--but turns it on its head. It's expressed most fully in Judith Warner's NYT essay, which concludes: "Palin’s nomination isn’t just an insult to the women (and men) of America. It’s an act of cruelty toward her as well."
Ta-Nehisi Coates did something more with that in a post yesterday--an essay which somehow managed to say both "The Palin choice is all about playing on white resentment" and "I understand exactly why she is so appealing, because my background is similar to hers." It's a messy piece, obviously written on the fly, but it's incredibly moving and gets at the complex intersections of race and class going on in a really nuanced way.
Anyhow, I have a feeling that the Palin story is going to be back on the table next week, and we're about to see a few new wrinkles emerge
posted by neroli at 4:50 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
Oh, Jesus Christ.
Inside John McCain’s campaign the expectation is growing that there will be a popularity boosting pre-election wedding in Alaska between Bristol Palin, 17, and Levi Johnston, 18, her schoolmate and father of her baby. “It would be fantastic,” said a McCain insider. “You would have every TV camera there. The entire country would be watching. It would shut down the race for a week.”
These people are horrific.
posted by EarBucket at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2008 [9 favorites]
Inside John McCain’s campaign the expectation is growing that there will be a popularity boosting pre-election wedding in Alaska between Bristol Palin, 17, and Levi Johnston, 18, her schoolmate and father of her baby. “It would be fantastic,” said a McCain insider. “You would have every TV camera there. The entire country would be watching. It would shut down the race for a week.”
These people are horrific.
posted by EarBucket at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2008 [9 favorites]
After reversing on debate, John McCain looks like John McCan't
“The collapse of McCain's Hail Mary intervention capped a tumultuous week which saw the Arizona Democrat's lead over Obama evaporate and his running mate deliver a ragged and at times impenetrable TV interview. With economic jitters playing to traditional Democratic dogma, McCain's Big Mo suddenly reverted to his challenger.posted by ericb at 6:51 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]
‘This is the attention-deficit-disorder campaign,’ said a bewildered senior Republican operative. ‘They've had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad week.’
In the process, McCain invited questions about his judgment and ability to work his will in Washington if elected.
‘This raises the fundamental issue of how a guy who is hated by his own party can govern,’ fretted a GOP mandarin who worked for several Presidents. ‘If he can't control the Republicans, how can he run a country?’”
I too have been wondering a little about whether she's purposely underwhelming now so that in an eventual debate she can appear to exceed expectations just by being not a TOTAL idiot.
That has GOT to be it. There's no way Palin is this stupid and unready, there's got be something else going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on September 28, 2008
That has GOT to be it. There's no way Palin is this stupid and unready, there's got be something else going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on September 28, 2008
She may be unready (after all, how can she be expected to learn foreign policy, economics, etc. in a matter of mere weeks?) but she's not stupid. She's ignorant of the subjects she is supposed to know but up until now had no real interest in learning.
She's like the high school student who's been cheating on tests since Algebra I and getting A's. Now she's supposed to stand up in front of the whole school and answer questions in Advanced Calculus and she can't do it even though she's been prepped for a couple of weeks by people who actually know the subject.
She's ignorant, not stupid.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:34 AM on September 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
She's like the high school student who's been cheating on tests since Algebra I and getting A's. Now she's supposed to stand up in front of the whole school and answer questions in Advanced Calculus and she can't do it even though she's been prepped for a couple of weeks by people who actually know the subject.
She's ignorant, not stupid.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:34 AM on September 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
The Record of Stockton, CA, endorses Obama -- the first time in since FDR's first reelection campaign that the newspaper has endorsed the Democratic presidential candidate.
posted by scody at 1:57 PM on September 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by scody at 1:57 PM on September 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
I would not, for example, market "first edition" cheap consumer branding trinkets to anyone I respected.About that swag (some of which I would love to be able to buy but can't as a foreigner, and rightly so) I wonder why amongst all the tees and winter gear is there not a hoody to be had? Too
For one thing, you're assuming that people don't want the trinkets. They do. At my local campaign office, we can't keep Obama gear in stock.
...
And for another, they're an important source of revenue. Obama's campaign began by swearing off some categories of support that traditionally go to major party candidates, and has emphasized small-donor support. So to make up for some lost income, the campaign has designed and sold great-looking swag to bring cash into the coffers.
posted by =^^= at 4:35 AM on September 29, 2008
I'm pretty sure there was a hoody during the primaries. I could be wrong, though.
posted by EarBucket at 4:55 AM on September 29, 2008
posted by EarBucket at 4:55 AM on September 29, 2008
the tactics employed in last Friday's debate aimed at not scaring off if not winning over the undecideds?
What tactics do you mean?
Hoodies: I don't know why there aren't any on the website, but there are a lot available from designers other than official ones, and those you are welcome to buy.
posted by Miko at 11:42 AM on September 29, 2008
What tactics do you mean?
Hoodies: I don't know why there aren't any on the website, but there are a lot available from designers other than official ones, and those you are welcome to buy.
posted by Miko at 11:42 AM on September 29, 2008
Or strategy, I may be confusing the two ;)
What I mean is that, for example, in the debate thread some people expressed their disappointment that during the debate Obama wasn't as passionate and forceful in his arguments and rhetoric as they'd like. Compare, for example, his cool and collectedness during the debate with the passion in the speech he gave in Fredericksburg yesterday.
Granted, a debate is a completely different from a speech on the stump, but people have since pointed out that the debate was not intended for those who have already decided to vote for Obama: it's aimed at those who haven't made up their minds yet or decided to hold their noses and vote for McCain but could be persuaded to change their minds.
"On strategy and tactics" by James Fallows in the Atlantic:
So that's why I wondered about the lack of hoodies when I checked out the Obama site. I truly wonder if someone in the campaign actually thought about it and decided that hoodies would make Obama seem less comfy and safe to some voters? The fact that there are Obama hoodies to be had but just not from the website or official designers is great for me so that I can actually get one, but it doesn't answer my (admittedly rather beanplated) question.
posted by =^^= at 5:56 PM on September 29, 2008
What I mean is that, for example, in the debate thread some people expressed their disappointment that during the debate Obama wasn't as passionate and forceful in his arguments and rhetoric as they'd like. Compare, for example, his cool and collectedness during the debate with the passion in the speech he gave in Fredericksburg yesterday.
Granted, a debate is a completely different from a speech on the stump, but people have since pointed out that the debate was not intended for those who have already decided to vote for Obama: it's aimed at those who haven't made up their minds yet or decided to hold their noses and vote for McCain but could be persuaded to change their minds.
"On strategy and tactics" by James Fallows in the Atlantic:
"But Obama either figured out, or instinctively understood, that the real battle was to make himself seem comfortable, reasonable, responsible, well-versed, and in all ways "safe" and non-outsiderish to the audience just making up its mind about him. (And yes, of course, his being a young black man challenging an older white man complicated everything he did and said, which is why his most wittily aggressive debate performance was against another black man, Alan Keyes, in his 2004 Senate race.)"And from what I've read and heard, there seems to be a growing consensus that he succeeded in that.
So that's why I wondered about the lack of hoodies when I checked out the Obama site. I truly wonder if someone in the campaign actually thought about it and decided that hoodies would make Obama seem less comfy and safe to some voters? The fact that there are Obama hoodies to be had but just not from the website or official designers is great for me so that I can actually get one, but it doesn't answer my (admittedly rather beanplated) question.
posted by =^^= at 5:56 PM on September 29, 2008
Huh. Banned? Or did she take her ball and go home? That seems out of character.
posted by EarBucket at 7:30 PM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by EarBucket at 7:30 PM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
So that's why I wondered about the lack of hoodies when I checked out the Obama site. I truly wonder if someone in the campaign actually thought about it and decided that hoodies would make Obama seem less comfy and safe to some voters?
Maybe they would like hoodies better if they knew they were called "bunny-hugs" in Saskachewan.
posted by jb at 7:42 PM on September 29, 2008
Maybe they would like hoodies better if they knew they were called "bunny-hugs" in Saskachewan.
posted by jb at 7:42 PM on September 29, 2008
I apologise for not taking your word for it, jb. It's definitely true: "say no to hoody......bunnyhugs are dope".
posted by =^^= at 8:29 PM on September 29, 2008
posted by =^^= at 8:29 PM on September 29, 2008
What I mean is that, for example, in the debate thread some people expressed their disappointment that during the debate Obama wasn't as passionate and forceful in his arguments and rhetoric as they'd like. Compare, for example, his cool and collectedness during the debate with the passion in the speech he gave in Fredericksburg yesterday.
I agree that his style was appropriate to his audience and strategy. I hadn't thought about it as a race-related strategy to this point. Certainly it makes some sense. However, I've seen him speak elsewhere, most notably in a Q&A forum in the NH primaries, and he was calm, pleasant, and statesmanlike just as he was in the debates. I think there are times for fiery passionate speeches, and times for reasoned discussion - and your own events designated as "rallies" with crowds of supporters are the time for the former, while many other fora are the time for the latter.
His performance in this debate was also not very different from the style he employed during the 26 Democratic debates during the primary season (about half of which I watched).
There was also some calculated handling of the debate in an attempt to create a contrast between calm and thoughtfulness (on Obama's part) and "meanness" and short temper on McCain's part. That does seem to have worked, as I've heard many people characterize McCain as "rude," "mean" or "petty" in the days since the event.
So I agree there may have been some racial dynamics at play, because to some extent there inevitably are, but don't believe they were the driving factor in debate strategy or that any such concern caused him to behave differently than he has at any point during this campaign. Obama's demeanor iFriday night wasn't at all unusual for him; it fell well within his standard spectrum of expression. For those people who had only seen him depicted in full "rally" mode, he may have seemed restrained, but I think "rally" mode is actually the exception to his normal communication style, not the rule.
About the hoodies, I really can't speculate.
posted by Miko at 8:47 PM on September 29, 2008
I agree that his style was appropriate to his audience and strategy. I hadn't thought about it as a race-related strategy to this point. Certainly it makes some sense. However, I've seen him speak elsewhere, most notably in a Q&A forum in the NH primaries, and he was calm, pleasant, and statesmanlike just as he was in the debates. I think there are times for fiery passionate speeches, and times for reasoned discussion - and your own events designated as "rallies" with crowds of supporters are the time for the former, while many other fora are the time for the latter.
His performance in this debate was also not very different from the style he employed during the 26 Democratic debates during the primary season (about half of which I watched).
There was also some calculated handling of the debate in an attempt to create a contrast between calm and thoughtfulness (on Obama's part) and "meanness" and short temper on McCain's part. That does seem to have worked, as I've heard many people characterize McCain as "rude," "mean" or "petty" in the days since the event.
So I agree there may have been some racial dynamics at play, because to some extent there inevitably are, but don't believe they were the driving factor in debate strategy or that any such concern caused him to behave differently than he has at any point during this campaign. Obama's demeanor iFriday night wasn't at all unusual for him; it fell well within his standard spectrum of expression. For those people who had only seen him depicted in full "rally" mode, he may have seemed restrained, but I think "rally" mode is actually the exception to his normal communication style, not the rule.
About the hoodies, I really can't speculate.
posted by Miko at 8:47 PM on September 29, 2008
It's definitely true
Indeed; my sister moved there ten years ago and we still make fun of her: "Don't forget to put your bunnyhug on while you're drinking Vi-Co in the quonset!"
Oh, those Saskatchewaners.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:33 AM on September 30, 2008
Indeed; my sister moved there ten years ago and we still make fun of her: "Don't forget to put your bunnyhug on while you're drinking Vi-Co in the quonset!"
Oh, those Saskatchewaners.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:33 AM on September 30, 2008
I read cortex's comment several times before I figured out that he wasn't talking about nuclear launch buttons.
posted by jacalata at 1:14 AM on September 30, 2008
posted by jacalata at 1:14 AM on September 30, 2008
“Is that a pizza place?”
WTF?
Yes, what was up with that?
posted by =^^= at 1:19 AM on September 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
WTF?
Yes, what was up with that?
posted by =^^= at 1:19 AM on September 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, OK, mystery solved in the Oh sh*t thread. But still...weird.
posted by =^^= at 1:54 AM on September 30, 2008
posted by =^^= at 1:54 AM on September 30, 2008
Heads-up: we're liveblogging the VP debate here over on Politicalfilter.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:23 PM on October 2, 2008
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:23 PM on October 2, 2008
From Obama last night "The Straight Talk Express lost a wheel on that one." It was one of the better lines from the debate.
posted by caddis at 8:12 AM on October 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 8:12 AM on October 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
It was silly to begin with but I raised it, sooo for the record: yes, you can! There are official Obama hoodies to be had. If you're American, that is :(
posted by =^^= at 1:18 AM on October 14, 2008
posted by =^^= at 1:18 AM on October 14, 2008
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posted by billysumday at 5:44 AM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]