Visual Migraine simulator
September 25, 2008 6:52 AM   Subscribe

Finally I can show you what I see in my head when I have a Visual Migraine. I get these a couple times a year, but only recently found this site with the amazingly-accurate flash animation.
posted by centerpunch (69 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite
I don't want to see it if it's going to induce a seizure.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:54 AM on September 25, 2008

Every time that happens to my vision I just turn off the power and blow in the cartridge.
posted by Damn That Television at 7:00 AM on September 25, 2008 [7 favorites]

It's not seizure inducing. If anything, it's almost sedate. The effect kinda sneaks up on you.
posted by boo_radley at 7:01 AM on September 25, 2008

Jeez! That'd freak me out. Whenever I get migraines, I get something similar, except instead of flashing rainbow patches it just turns into... nothing. I get like a void in my vision. Which can suck when you're driving and then oh look I can't see anything in this one area how safe. Oh look now that area is growing.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 7:03 AM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]

This made my eyes water and my brain curdle. My wife and her brother get these, although I don't know if the rainbow matches (the blind spot does). They say alcohol helps. Suuuure.
posted by DU at 7:04 AM on September 25, 2008

it's the amazing technicolor dream coat belt
posted by nitsuj at 7:05 AM on September 25, 2008

Yeah, I get these from time to time too, but oddly enough, mine are always strictly black & white, no color. Other than that, yep, that's pretty much exactly what I experience. Great find, centerpunch!

What's really odd is that for a couple of years, the only thing that would trigger mine was drinking several cups of coffee at my in-laws' place. Something in their water perhaps?
posted by kcds at 7:05 AM on September 25, 2008

That's so pretty I want to lie down in a very dark room and hate my face.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:05 AM on September 25, 2008

I freaked out the first time I had one- thought I was having a stroke or worse. (Of course, when you close your eyes the pattern is still there!) I was at work, felt like I was going to pass out (from shock, I guess), friend called 911 and gave me aspirin, ambulance came and took me to hospital. By the time I got there it was almost gone. Doctor said it was a visual migraine, but I didn't really believe him until I googled around and found some similar descriptions from other folks.

Mine are usually triggered by stress and/or bright light. I now know to just take advil, close my eyes and relax, and they're usually gone in 15 minutes.

I never have a headache with them, but some folks do.
posted by centerpunch at 7:06 AM on September 25, 2008

I get that! I didn't realise it had a name, I just thought it was the 'aura' ie. typical migraine behaviour. It never occurred to me that it was due to something weird happening in the visual centre of my brain. I suppose when it's happening, analysing it is the last thing I would want to do.
I've never experienced it while driving but I'd probably attempt to pull over and go to sleep for a while, as that usually sorts the visual aspect of it for me, and if I sleep early enough, means I won't get the accompanying headache.
DU, I find alcohol helps too. I've always assumed it acted in a sedative manner.
posted by 999 at 7:10 AM on September 25, 2008

I'm glad I saw this today. It happened to me about a year ago and I had no idea what was going on, which freaked me out more than the visual itself. Honestly, I figured it was either a stroke or a bizarre flashback (Too much LDS).
posted by indeed at 7:11 AM on September 25, 2008

I've never had this, but I do get floaters quite often.
posted by nitsuj at 7:11 AM on September 25, 2008

Why the hell didn't this person pull over?
posted by schroedinger at 7:13 AM on September 25, 2008

God that sucks. My migraines are usually flickering in the peripheral field of vision - and can be brought on by time under fluorescent lighting. Under normal circumstances I can observe their flicker, with a migraine it's like someone pounding on my head at roughly 60hz.

It might be colorful like that, I don't know. But it hurts when it happens.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:15 AM on September 25, 2008

Mine usually start at the edges and work their way in to the middle, but otherwise that was pretty accurate. I need to lie down now.
posted by goatdog at 7:21 AM on September 25, 2008

Honestly, I figured it was either a stroke or a bizarre flashback (Too much LDS).

It was the 60s, everyone was doing it... but it can happen to you, man! You go on a mission, get your consecrated garments, get married in the temple, and all of a sudden you've got flashing colored lights in front of your eyes. Fun fact: this is why they banned coffee in Utah!

Seriously, though, I get something similar to this, though like kcds, mine are in black and white. The part where it slowly crawls downward before spreading was eerily familiar...
posted by vorfeed at 7:22 AM on September 25, 2008 [13 favorites]

I get these, the medical term is scintillating scotoma. An older term was Fortification Spectrum, because of their perceived similarity to military drawings of earthwork fortifications. So every time I get one I start thinking of spies secretly making drawings of Ottoman forts!
posted by gdav at 7:22 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

That's awesome... it really helps me empathize a little more with people's ailments if I can "experience" it different ways. It's interesting that this kind of voyeurism wouldn't have been possible 20 or 30 years ago, or at least would have been absurdly inaccurate due to the primitive technology and artistic license.
posted by crapmatic at 7:23 AM on September 25, 2008

Doing a control+f search for "stress" in that thread is interesting. I had one of these a few years ago and it sucked.
posted by cashman at 7:28 AM on September 25, 2008

Yeah, the rainbow thing isn't accurate. Showing how it distorts and multiplies and spreads and slowly...drifts...outward... was pretty good though. Good enough to make me go "Ugh," and set my coffee down.

Ah, fuck, my right eye's twitching now. I don't even like thinking about them.

One of the top ten moments of my life was when I discovered that Relpax plus a dose of prescription strength Aleve completely knocks it out. I still get the visuals, but no pain and no vomiting. That's after three decades, roughly half of which I went undiagnosed, the other half of which I got stuff that was no better than sugar pills. I would seriously bottom for whoever invented Relpax, it's been that much of a life-changer for me.

Much better than my great-grandfather's cure, which was come home from work every Friday, throw up, swallow a handful of aspirin, limp down to the bar, and get totally shitfaced. Man must have had an iron gut to do that.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:29 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

3 times I have experienced this. Never any pain. Delightful to have an explanation.
posted by artaxerxes at 7:34 AM on September 25, 2008

A couple more simulations of Migraine Auras.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:46 AM on September 25, 2008

Mine goes from dot to arc to full ring, then expands until it goes beyond my peripheral vision. Then I know I've got 30-45 minutes to throw down some medicine, get back to my cave, and try to get to sleep before I start hating life.

Just reading this thread has turned my stomach. Ugh.
posted by kimota at 7:49 AM on September 25, 2008

If you, like me, are wondering where you've seen this before, it was linked in an AskMe answer.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:55 AM on September 25, 2008

"I get something similar, except instead of flashing rainbow patches it just turns into... nothing. I get like a void in my vision." - CitrusFreak12

Thats the same thing that happens to me. Excruciating pain and loss of vision from peripheral to inwards to the point where sometimes the only viewable area I have is about 1 inch circle in the center of my vision. Its temporary (usually only lasts about an hour) but during that time I'm pretty much useless.
posted by jmnugent at 7:56 AM on September 25, 2008

Like kcds, mine is strictly black and white, and I would say more paisley/blob-like than this animation. And it hasn't yet happened while driving, which is good, because a lot of people are going to die if it does. (Of course there's always a good chance of that anytime I get behind the wheel, migraine or no.)
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:57 AM on September 25, 2008

Ugh, that was hard to watch! Like others, mine have no color but it's basically similar. Sometimes it gets to the point where I can't see in most of my vision field. Usually no pain, thankfully. I wouldn't drive while having one!!
posted by ahdeeda at 8:03 AM on September 25, 2008

Wow, StickyCarpet, I can see why this guy felt the need to make a better visualization of his migraine experience. Those two examples are dreadful.
posted by JBennett at 8:10 AM on September 25, 2008

I get these, but mine start in my peripheral vision, rather than the center field. Sometimes parts of my visual field just go away during them. These used to precede skull splitting headaches, but now I just end up with a dull background headache and severe sleepiness.
posted by notbuddha at 8:21 AM on September 25, 2008

(Too much LDS)

Double dumbass on you!
posted by adamdschneider at 8:26 AM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

I used to get Hemiplegic migraines (incredibly traumatising) without visual auras when I was younger that have since passed, but a family member gets this kind, and I fully expect to experience it in the future. So this has been a useful post for me, now I know exactly what to expect. Didn't really think to look into visual representations. Thank you all!
posted by saturnine at 8:43 AM on September 25, 2008

I just want to get on the "me too"-train: Mine are black and white and not especially C-shaped, but seems to be triggered by overworking or not getting enough sleep. They go away after sleep or after I get half an hour or so of relaxation. I get them about once a year.

I haven't experienced them on fairly stressful military maneuvers, though, they only pop up when I'm at a desk. Don't know if fresh air is an antidote.
posted by Harald74 at 8:45 AM on September 25, 2008

I get these in oil-slick silver colors in an undulating S shape + the void in the center of my vision. I know it's winding down when I get tunnel vision, then go briefly blind (2-5 minutes) before the light show stops and the pounding starts.

I had to fight down a rush of incipient panic when I started to watch this, couldn't get through it. Ugh.
posted by jamaro at 9:13 AM on September 25, 2008

When I was 1st diagnosed with diabetes, I started going blind. I thought that blindness meant pitch black darkness. Wrong! Light got through but my eyes were filled with fluid that let in silvery pearlish light. Luckily the doctors were able to get my sugar glucose down and the fluid drained from my eyes, restoring my sight. I can read the number of a bus 2 blocks away again. They used to call me 'Eagle Eyes'.
posted by doctorschlock at 9:14 AM on September 25, 2008

That's not how mine look. I get a subtle ring of diffraction in the middle of my vision, like a psychedelic hula hoop. Inside and outside the ring looks normal. It starts off small and gets bigger and bigger til the ring is outside my field of vision, and then I need to go and lie down in a dark room.
posted by w0mbat at 9:14 AM on September 25, 2008

It looks like a fun game, but I can't work out the controls.
posted by hnnrs at 9:17 AM on September 25, 2008

Mine goes from dot to arc to full ring, then expands until it goes beyond my peripheral vision.

That's pretty much how mine are too, although they don't quite get to a full ring, more like an arc which is 90% of a full circle--sometimes the opening is on the left, and sometimes on the right. Mine are in color, mainly with blue/green/red bits. I've had three in the past ten years, never with any associated headache. (Nor have I ever had conventional migraines.) The first time really freaked me out, called the doctor, who reassured me that immediate attention was not necessary. After that I did some research on them and found they weren't dangerous (other than effects of having obscured vision), so the second and third time I was able to just enjoy the ride (15-20 minutes for me). Hasn't happened while I've been driving, but I'd need to pull over if it did. Fortunately mine start out small and initially block only a very small part of my vision, so I'd be able to do this safely.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:19 AM on September 25, 2008


Thanks SO much for finding and posting this.

I started getting these about a year ago (though my doctor referred to them as "Ocular Migraines").

The first one I got, I ended up in the emergency room, convinced I was having a stroke, aneurysm, or detached retina. Very disconcerting.

I got two last week, one day after the next, and during the second one, made a point to note exactly what was occurring so I could make an animated simulation to show my wife what it's like...

What you've linked to is not only extremely accurate, but saved me a fair amount of time as well.

Too cool.

Thanks again!
posted by numlok at 9:34 AM on September 25, 2008

Hmm- stuck in traffic... and then he suddenly gets a migraine...
Sounds all too familiar.

If you suffer from migraines, I suggest you google "Dr. John Sarno".

Sarno cured himself of migraines by examining his own patterns of repressed rage.
posted by Zambrano at 10:10 AM on September 25, 2008

Okay, I'm removing this thread from my activity now, because reading it is making me miserable. AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:35 AM on September 25, 2008

Mine are pretty similar to that in terms of the shape, although of course it's different every time, but it's not colored in like that -- it's just not there, a blind spot, with a slightly sparkly border. It's just... a hole, I guess. It's not black. It's not ANYTHING. It's just a spot that isn't there and that I have to look around. In a bad attack, my usable visual area can be very small, just one tiny bit, usually off center.

Generally, that phase lasts for 20 to 25 minutes, and then my vision clears up over about one minute -- and then if I'm going to get a headache, it hits pretty hard. The intensity seems to relate to how much vision I lost. If I'm dropping a lot, I know to take ibuprofen and pound a bunch of coffee right away.

Even when it's bad, I don't throw up or need to hide in dark places like many people do. It's just a bad headache, not crippling pain, but I definitely Don't Want To Be Bothered during a migraine.

The loss of vision is super annoying, and I tend to do it more when I'm stressed. It was a tradition, for many years, for me to migraine on my first day of a new job. After the third or fourth time that happened, I started going in way early on the first day, so I could get my vision settled and still be there on time.
posted by Malor at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2008

I got migraines in my 20s and I used to get visual effects, but it was more of a cognitive blindness and it was totally lateral - I couldn't describe anything in the right half of my visual field, from either eye, but I could walk around without bumping into anything.

Last time I had a migraine I forgot how to read. Didn't even have much of a headache, and I could recognize and define individual words, but I couldn't get from one word to another and make any kind of sense of them. Scary!
posted by nicwolff at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2008

(Too much LDS)

Why does everyone have to blame the Mormons for everything?
posted by rokusan at 11:05 AM on September 25, 2008

Mine usually aren't colorful, just bright.
Then I start to go numb on half of my body.

Last time I had a migraine I forgot how to read.
Been there too.
posted by brevator at 11:15 AM on September 25, 2008

I freaked out the first time I had one- thought I was having a stroke or worse. (Of course, when you close your eyes the pattern is still there!) I was at work, felt like I was going to pass out (from shock, I guess), friend called 911 and gave me aspirin...

If you think you're having a stroke you shouldn't take aspirin. It may be useful if you're having an ischemic stroke, but if you're having a hemorrhagic stroke it will make it harder for your blood to clot. This is why people are routinely given aspirin during suspected heart attacks, but have to wait 'til after a cat scan take anti-platelets or anti-coagulants during a suspected stroke.
posted by brevator at 11:31 AM on September 25, 2008

Ugh. Just watching that made my palms sweat and had me eyeing my peripheral vision warily. I've had about ten migraines in the last three months, and they all either have the glorious scotoma, or "hi! your left hand is no longer talking to the rest of the system, have fun with that."

My first one, at age, 20, knocked out the entire right side of my upper body-- limp arm, full-vision blind spot, drooling, slurring, etc. The docs took me off hormonal birth control Right Quick, gave me a head CT, and pronounced it a migraine. I had one maybe every five years up until recently, when they ramped up abruptly.

My GP is sympathetic and handed me a medication that's an ergot derivative and a truly whacking dose of caffeine all in one. It's the holdout pistol for when the shotgun of Aleve + two Tylenol has failed.

Ergot. One of my other meds is derived from snake venom. I love science, but I'm totally waiting for the eye of newt suppositories at this rate.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:18 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

CitrusFreak12, Malor et al, have you ever received a clear diagnosis from a doctor about those? I get the exact same thing about twice a year. I've always tried to describe it as "Well, one second I can see, and the next second everything on the left side of my peripheral vision looks like ... whatever is behind me. It just cuts off. There's no color or anything; it's blank, not there." This is usually followed by an intense headache that lasts for about three hours.

Docs always said, "Huh, never heard of that before. Probably migraine-related." I'd love to see a pertinent link about this since I've never really been able to find more info about it.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 12:27 PM on September 25, 2008

Last time I had a migraine I forgot how to read. Didn't even have much of a headache, and I could recognize and define individual words, but I couldn't get from one word to another and make any kind of sense of them.

I get that, too. I also often can't make sense of what people are saying to me -- I know they're speaking English, but the words make no sense. I have a hard time talking and writing too -- I'll use the wrong words, not be able to spell, things like that. On one occasion I sent my mom an email and managed to spell a couple of words backwards. That was freaky to see later on.

I sent this link to my boss, because it looks exactly like what I see when I get a migraine. I've actually been called on the carpet at work for occasionally staying home sick with one, because she just didn't get that it's not a bad headache it's like a brain malfunction. NOW she gets it.
posted by sarcasticah at 12:33 PM on September 25, 2008

I get these, the medical term is scintillating scotoma.

Am I the only one who read this as scintillating scrotom? (goddamn Mormons, get out of my brain!)
posted by Pollomacho at 12:33 PM on September 25, 2008

We should start a monthly meeting of metafilter migraineurs.
posted by brevator at 12:41 PM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]

Only if we pinky swear never to discuss symptoms in detail. Otherwise I'm hanging with the straights.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:12 PM on September 25, 2008

I have epilepsy and basilar migraine and I would seriously like to see if this approximates the experience of any of the auras I've experienced, but I really do want someone to answer first: Is this going to induce a seizure? Cause I'd really rather not have one. Thnx!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:15 PM on September 25, 2008

You can count me in the club, but I'm one of those outliers who don't get the visual ones- mine is the pain-nausea-dry-heaves canyoupleaserunovermyheadandmakeitgoaway type.

Care to join me as I whimper (silently-noise makes it worse) on the bathroom floor? It's cold but dark and quiet, and can be made somewhat more comfy if you collect all the towels and make a pillow and blankie out of them.
posted by mightshould at 1:31 PM on September 25, 2008

We should start a monthly meeting of metafilter migraineurs.

Because we don't whine and bitch enough already.

(I kid, I kid. Also, I have so many ice packs in the freezer for when I get migraines that I barely have room for food).
posted by at 2:18 PM on September 25, 2008

mightshould -- when you get those migraines, have you tried taking a hot bath with the lights off? The combination of total darkness, the subtle white noise as the tub fills, and the temperature differential on my skin helps a lot with those kind of I-need-sensory-deprivation migraines. It's sort of womblike, I guess. I find it helps to soak a cloth in the hot water and wipe my face with it, too... again, the temperature change as the air hits the water helps a lot.

It works best if you can catch the migraine before it progresses to the full-blown, can't-even-stand-the-sound-of-the-water stage, but at this point I've sort of programmed myself to associate that sound with relief, anyway.
posted by vorfeed at 2:22 PM on September 25, 2008

I've had migraines for over ten years (I'm only 25). This site really drives home how they're not just a headache that you can tough out. Try focusing while your vision is doing that and it feels like someone is inflating a balloon full of concrete inside your head. Hahah, no.

Even though my symptoms aren't the same, there are a lot of school administrators that I would like to send this link.

posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:39 PM on September 25, 2008

To me it was fairly accurate, but not totally dead on. I see a shimmer with a more complex coastline and tiny, high frequency roiling internal detail, and it never make more than a C-shape. It begins in my center of vision and slowly expands off to the side until it's finally 'out of sight'
posted by jfrancis at 2:52 PM on September 25, 2008

Hmm, vorfeed, that's really worth a try, as the throne is next to the tub so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.... It's not something I've heard as a solution, thanks for sharing! Hmmm, relaxing warm bath sounds wonderful, but I cannot say that I'm looking forward to the next opportunity to try it out.

I've tried the ice pack to the base of the neck, and that sometimes helps if I catch it early. Right now, I've been trying a fistfull of vitamins and minerals as an attempt to prevent them. I'd hate to tempt fate and say it works, but it's been a couple of months now... I try and do anything to not take the drugs. Even the disolving tablets have a hard time staying down. They seem to be getting worse as I get older.
posted by mightshould at 3:02 PM on September 25, 2008

I can't remember a time when I didn't have migraines. I get the "please just crush my head" kind now, with the nausea and need for silence, stillness, scentlessness and dark, but when I was a kid I'd get the puking, too. I think I learned to recognize them and take Excedrin or knock myself out earlier, hence the lack of vomit these days. Wonderful how Excedrin turned out to work better than just about anything, with whatever will make me sleep (yay Benadryl!) a close second. These days I think I'm getting weird atypical migraine stuff going on, too, and it's horrible. It's like the migraines know I'm on to them or something. And then there are the times that I can look straight at stuff but it seems to have gone two dimensional and while I can describe it perfectly, it feels like I can't see.

And I don't get ocular migraines but that flash thing was really messing with me.
posted by dilettante at 5:07 PM on September 25, 2008

you broke it! i get the following message:

This Account Has Exceeded Its CPU Quota
Wait a few minutes and use your browser's "Back" button or click here to try again.

harumph. i waited a few minutes & tried again & got the same thing. oooowwww. this makes my head hurt.
posted by msconduct at 5:21 PM on September 25, 2008

jfrancis has the symptoms I experience down perfectly.

Wondering if there are any other treatments people like. I've been getting them since I was 12 and the only thing that works for me is hydrocodone and rest. The frequency of my migraines has slowed since I've gotten my blood pressure under control, but I had one this past Saturday and it was probably the worst I've ever experienced. I was in bed for 36 hours straight. The hydrocodone didn't touch it. I've tried maxalt and imitrex to no avail. What other treatments do people like?
posted by brevator at 7:09 PM on September 25, 2008

What other treatments do people like?

Many people swear by marijuana.

Personally, if I catch the migraine when it's just starting, caffeine often works for me -- a strong cup of coffee or (even better) one of those dark chocolate bars with coffee beans in them sometimes dials it down. If I combine it with a lie-down in a dark, quiet room, sometimes I'll be able to get back up in an hour or two without the migraine. If it's already a full-blown migraine, though, caffeine usually doesn't help enough.

In my experience, the key to treatment is catching them early, when you can just barely feel that they might be coming on... there are (for me) several things which will help at that point, but the options dwindle quickly if it keeps going.
posted by vorfeed at 7:42 PM on September 25, 2008

Great. Just Great. Thanks a LOT. Now I'm going to have to show someone else that flash vid within 7 days or I'm going to start having visual migranes myself.

At least that's what the little girl on the phone just said.
posted by matty at 7:43 PM on September 25, 2008

I had never known that what I got were migraines until I went to the optometrist when I was 16. They had a video running on the screen that was an even better simulation than the main link (which isn't bad for just throwing it together).

Most of the time mine aren't followed by a particularly bad headache, but if I sneeze anytime in the following three days, I regret it instantly.
posted by chimaera at 9:29 PM on September 25, 2008

I just had one of these yesterday. I get about 2-3 a year.

Whenever this happens to me I also have a period of about 5 minutes or so during which I am unable to speak. I can make noises, but I can't form the words I'd like to say. I also have trouble processing words that I can read through the visual kaleidoscope that I'm seeing.

This has always made me uneasy. It is comforting to know that I'm not having mini-strokes or li'l seizures, which was all that I could imagine going on up there.

Thanks for this.
posted by YFiB at 6:15 AM on September 26, 2008

Also, I just decided that Li'l Seizure would make a great rap name. Or breakdancer.
posted by YFiB at 6:17 AM on September 26, 2008

vorfeed's hot bath in a dark room = good but what makes it even better for me is hot bath with icepack on my head. Talk about temperature differential.

Also, apparently I have started turning a new and exciting color during migraines. I used to go all grey, now I have a greenish tint, apparently. And this is according to my business partner's son, who said -- she later told me, after I ended up going home for the day -- "Why is she GREEN?"
posted by at 6:25 AM on September 26, 2008

Ughh, yep, that's the fella. Had about two or three of these things in my life, usually when exhausted from exercise or from too many late nights. The last one was totally freaky - started off with a weird feeling behind the eyes then over about 15 minutes i completely lost the left hand side of my vision, i could see out of both eyes but when i looked in the mirror i could only see the right side of anything. Not.Pleasant.
posted by gangster_computer_god at 6:40 AM on September 26, 2008

Catch 'em early -- for me that's definitely key to avoiding the "please either pump me full of demerol or kill me now" phase. Actually, I've only gone to the ER for a migraine once, and it was great. Imitrex, dexamethasone, and Vicodin hadn't touched it, and I was vomiting. After a farily horrible hour long wait in a bright room, I was examined and then given a demerol IV. That pretty much let me sleep, and I woke up a couple of hours later (5am) and got a taxi home. Ahhhh.

I, like the grandfather mentioned upthread, get Friday evening migraines. I can avoid them by just staying stressed over the weekend. For me, excedrin might help a little, but alcohol just nauseates me.

Once a migraine is over, I feel Just GREAT. It is such a relief to be able to move around painlessly again.
posted by Hello Dad, I'm in Jail at 6:03 AM on September 27, 2008

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