McVeigh, Nichols did not act alone? U.S. had prior knowledge of the bombing? (via Fark)
May 8, 2001 12:37 AM Subscribe
McVeigh, Nichols did not act alone? U.S. had prior knowledge of the bombing? (via Fark) Interesting piece about a forthcoming 500 page report by the Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee. They conclude, among other things, that the blast has links to bin Laden. Kind of scary how much the allegations remind me of the JFK investigation.
The only credible news on this I saw was that McVeigh's first lawyer (Jones I think) says he believes McVeigh was helped, and that leg they found in the rubble who they never identified was his accomplice. He was on MSNBC and Fox News this Monday.
posted by owillis at 2:17 AM on May 8, 2001
posted by owillis at 2:17 AM on May 8, 2001
Good post Mo Nickels. Just one question. Does Rupert Murdoch happen to own WorldNet Daily? Sure sounds like it. Expect Faux News to pick this up any minute now. :)
posted by nofundy at 4:52 AM on May 8, 2001
posted by nofundy at 4:52 AM on May 8, 2001
"Oooh-wee! That ol' bin Laden he sho' nuff is de debbil, ain't he?! And we hears he owns de 'lectric company in California, too!"
That's one of the silliest things I've read recently... Conspiracy theories are like mushrooms - they thrive in dank, foul-smelling places that seldom see any light and are more likely than not poisonous to humans who consume them. Haven't we reached the point where we can accept this as the tragic act of a single, misguided man - and just get past it? I feel for the loss of the former legislator who felt compelled to do this, but enough is enough.
posted by m.polo at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2001
That's one of the silliest things I've read recently... Conspiracy theories are like mushrooms - they thrive in dank, foul-smelling places that seldom see any light and are more likely than not poisonous to humans who consume them. Haven't we reached the point where we can accept this as the tragic act of a single, misguided man - and just get past it? I feel for the loss of the former legislator who felt compelled to do this, but enough is enough.
posted by m.polo at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2001
I read the same thing on alt.conspiricy.black.helicopters
posted by bondcliff at 6:00 AM on May 8, 2001
posted by bondcliff at 6:00 AM on May 8, 2001
Well, let me preface this post by saying that I'm not a conspiracist, that in fact I'm a good old-fashioned moderate liberal who *almost* voted for Nader but chickened out at the last minute and voted for Gore. Ok? Those are my demographic credentials. And here's my story:
Last month I was studying late in my library carrel and I locked myself out. They sent over a security guard to let me back in, and while we were walking back out of the library and I mentioned that I was once a security guard and had "Guarded" an ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) factory, and said that I supposed they guard that stuff a lot closer since the world trade center bombing. He told me that he had been a munitions officer in the Marines in (1968?) and so I asked him what he thought of the notion (put forth by G. Gordon Liddy) that McVeigh was using some sort of secret CIA method of truck bombing that showed he had been trained by the govt., blah blah blah and he replied,
"McVeigh was an idiot. He did a terrible job at the bombing. If he had any sense at all he would have put small loads on the supporting pillars so that they collapsed."
At this point he gestured at the pillars in the library and showed how the charges should be placed.
Before leaving for the night, I went online and googled around and found this link, which suggests that the damage in the building is inconsistent with a single truck bomb:
(actually this isn't the *exact* same link, but very similar)
http://www.sightings.com/political/bombing1.htm
GENERAL PARTIN AND OTHER BOMB EXPERTS' OPINIONS
Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, U.S. Air Force, retired, has 25 years experience in explosives and ballistic weapons design and testing. General Partin also served as the Commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory. Partin has this to say:
"When I first saw the picture of the truck bomb's assymetrical damage to the Federal building in Oklahoma, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would of been technically impossible without supplementary demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete bases inside the building, a standard demolition technique. For a simplistic blast truck bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A7 is beyond credulity." General Partin further explained that;
"The total incompatability with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that either some columns collapsed that should not have collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should of collapsed and did not."
"Reinforced concrete targets in large buildings are hard targets to blast. I know of no way possible to reproduce the apparent building damage through simply a truck bomb effort."
Maybe the ATF was illegally storying explosives and they went off. I don't know. But I still think there's something going on.
posted by mecran01 at 6:16 AM on May 8, 2001
Last month I was studying late in my library carrel and I locked myself out. They sent over a security guard to let me back in, and while we were walking back out of the library and I mentioned that I was once a security guard and had "Guarded" an ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) factory, and said that I supposed they guard that stuff a lot closer since the world trade center bombing. He told me that he had been a munitions officer in the Marines in (1968?) and so I asked him what he thought of the notion (put forth by G. Gordon Liddy) that McVeigh was using some sort of secret CIA method of truck bombing that showed he had been trained by the govt., blah blah blah and he replied,
"McVeigh was an idiot. He did a terrible job at the bombing. If he had any sense at all he would have put small loads on the supporting pillars so that they collapsed."
At this point he gestured at the pillars in the library and showed how the charges should be placed.
Before leaving for the night, I went online and googled around and found this link, which suggests that the damage in the building is inconsistent with a single truck bomb:
(actually this isn't the *exact* same link, but very similar)
http://www.sightings.com/political/bombing1.htm
GENERAL PARTIN AND OTHER BOMB EXPERTS' OPINIONS
Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, U.S. Air Force, retired, has 25 years experience in explosives and ballistic weapons design and testing. General Partin also served as the Commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory. Partin has this to say:
"When I first saw the picture of the truck bomb's assymetrical damage to the Federal building in Oklahoma, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would of been technically impossible without supplementary demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete bases inside the building, a standard demolition technique. For a simplistic blast truck bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A7 is beyond credulity." General Partin further explained that;
"The total incompatability with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that either some columns collapsed that should not have collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should of collapsed and did not."
"Reinforced concrete targets in large buildings are hard targets to blast. I know of no way possible to reproduce the apparent building damage through simply a truck bomb effort."
Maybe the ATF was illegally storying explosives and they went off. I don't know. But I still think there's something going on.
posted by mecran01 at 6:16 AM on May 8, 2001
Mecran01, I can give you some tin foil if you'd like to make a hat...
posted by bondcliff at 6:34 AM on May 8, 2001
posted by bondcliff at 6:34 AM on May 8, 2001
McVeigh was using some sort of secret CIA method of truck bombing
Gotta love those secret CIA methods! The same sophisticated techniques were applied to bombing our Embassies in Beirut, Tanzania and Kenya, our military barracks in Beirut and Dhahran, the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, and the World Trade Center in New York. The sad fact is that the knowledge and chemical ingredients required to build a massive bomb are easy to acquire, as Tim McVeigh and so many other psychopaths have unfortunately proved.
posted by Chairman_MaoXian at 6:50 AM on May 8, 2001
Gotta love those secret CIA methods! The same sophisticated techniques were applied to bombing our Embassies in Beirut, Tanzania and Kenya, our military barracks in Beirut and Dhahran, the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, and the World Trade Center in New York. The sad fact is that the knowledge and chemical ingredients required to build a massive bomb are easy to acquire, as Tim McVeigh and so many other psychopaths have unfortunately proved.
posted by Chairman_MaoXian at 6:50 AM on May 8, 2001
Rupert Murdoch?! Nah, that Aussie punter's a rank lib'ral compared to Joseph Farah of World Net Daily. Stories under his byline have included "The Rainforest Myth" and "The American Police State", for sampling.
The black helicopter crowd has always maintained that McVeigh was a tool of a CIA plot to use Arab terrorists and Americans in the "patriot" movement to bomb a government target and thus give the Klinton administration a mandate to institute the police state (You know, the one we live under today. Shh. Don't tell anyone.), and eliminate domestic enemies as at Ruby Ridge and Waco. As such, you will often see references to "the American Reichstag", referring to the Nazi bombing of the German parliament building, which was later ret-conned by the Nazis, once in power, into a plot by the pre-Hitler German government to discredit the Nazis.
I've always been curious about that leg (as, I'm sure, would anyone); but I don't see how it could be John Doe No. 2, who was allegedly seen with McVeigh after the bombing.
posted by dhartung at 8:19 AM on May 8, 2001
The black helicopter crowd has always maintained that McVeigh was a tool of a CIA plot to use Arab terrorists and Americans in the "patriot" movement to bomb a government target and thus give the Klinton administration a mandate to institute the police state (You know, the one we live under today. Shh. Don't tell anyone.), and eliminate domestic enemies as at Ruby Ridge and Waco. As such, you will often see references to "the American Reichstag", referring to the Nazi bombing of the German parliament building, which was later ret-conned by the Nazis, once in power, into a plot by the pre-Hitler German government to discredit the Nazis.
I've always been curious about that leg (as, I'm sure, would anyone); but I don't see how it could be John Doe No. 2, who was allegedly seen with McVeigh after the bombing.
posted by dhartung at 8:19 AM on May 8, 2001
dhartung: the background on the conspiracy theorists is helpful. For the record: *I* don't think that Mcveigh had some sort of CIA training--that came from G. Gordon Liddy. I just found myself, serendipitously, talking to a munitions expert one night and bounced that off of him.
I also don't believe the Oklahoma bombing was part of some sort of govt. conspiracy.
I just don't find it implausible that Mcveigh had lots of help, and that there may have been additional explosives planted in the building. That's all. No tinfoil hat necessary.
posted by mecran01 at 8:56 AM on May 8, 2001
I also don't believe the Oklahoma bombing was part of some sort of govt. conspiracy.
I just don't find it implausible that Mcveigh had lots of help, and that there may have been additional explosives planted in the building. That's all. No tinfoil hat necessary.
posted by mecran01 at 8:56 AM on May 8, 2001
Kind of scary how much the allegations remind me of the JFK investigation.
Kind of scary how much this reminds me of something I'd hear on Art Bell...
posted by DiplomaticImmunity at 11:24 AM on May 8, 2001
Kind of scary how much this reminds me of something I'd hear on Art Bell...
posted by DiplomaticImmunity at 11:24 AM on May 8, 2001
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A good small example of the kind of half-assed, disingenuous reporting it does is this: In the article it says, "[Rep. Charles] Key, who left the state legislature in 1998..." What it doesn't say is that he lost the election in 1998 in a run-off, and he lost again in 2000 in the primaries. My understanding is that Key was perceived as a fame-seeking nutjob by the voting population, who may have also felt his judgement was addled by the death of his grandson in the bombing (which the article also does not mention). Another example: The article says Charles Key was successful in convening a grand jury, one of his original goals. What it doesn't say is that the grand jury found there was no evidence of a conspiracy.
Second, the report is not the official report, but one put out by an apparently self-appointed committee.
Judging by the articles about the report, it has many unprofessional flaws: It relies on hearsay, rather than physical evidence. It relies upon the absence of physical evidence to prove its points, rather than the presence of it. The report is heavy on eye-witness testimony. It relies on "Middle Eastern" and "Mideastern" as coded insinuation of terrorism or terrorists. It suggests a wide-ranging conspiracy whose only motive appears to be to... well, protect the the conspiracy that protects the conspiracy.
We will see what the report looks like when it is finally released.
posted by Mo Nickels at 2:05 AM on May 8, 2001