February 17, 2000
7:50 PM   Subscribe

This guy gets in pissing contest with that guy, then this guy's new widget looks a lot like these folks' widget (at least that's what this other guy says). And now these folks give that guy a job.
I love the web! (Just not for the right reasons)
posted by wendell (40 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
I just found out about this stuff today, and here's my take:

Dave Winer is famous for being a loud mouth, so when he's wrong, he's really wrong. I couldn't believe it when I read it. I couldn't believe that Winer was dissin' Derek's well-known design skills in public when Winer admits repeatedly that he has no design sense himself.

Winer also fails to understand or ask anyone else how long Derek's had his personal site in its current "weblog" form.

Regarding the email thing, it's painfully obvious to anyone that's had a website up for more than 4 or 5 years that spam bots suck ass and a good way to get around them is to have a contact form instead.

The javascripted links are usually a tad annoying to me, but Derek uses them in funny ways, he sets up a joke, and the destination is the punchline.

I have no idea why people hate opening new windows, I use large monitors at high resolutions and usually have 4 or 5 browser windows open at any time. I find Derek's opening new windows to be convenient, I can stop reading his entry, click a link, and continue to read his entries without losing my place in my current window.

I guess it ticked off Winer that Derek mentioned the SalonWiredHerringFool thing, but the things Derek had to say about it were the same things everyone else talked about when Winer first launched it.

And then Derek politely says it's tacky to tell people how to design their personal sites, and Winer flys off the fucking handle and says that Powazek.com is a brain-dead weblog. Whatever Dave, if you don't like his site, don't fucking visit it and don't fucking tell the world how much you hate it because no one fucking cares what you think about one person's personal site.

I've had it with Dave Winer...
posted by mathowie at 8:25 PM on February 17, 2000

I think Derek was pretty reserved in his comments, both about SHWF and Dave's criticism. I think it's excellent that the Pyra team have hired him at the same time, because if you compare the blogger sites against the userlanders, then it's pretty easy to see where the design skills lie.
If you want to criticise a corporate site about useability and standards, go ahead. When you start laying into a personal site, then the at least do it privately via e-mail (though it seems Dave can't work out how to use a form).
I say, more Power to Powazek! Down with Dave!

posted by Neale at 8:37 PM on February 17, 2000

i wonder if this is a generational thing, or just a bullethead thing?

dave had a run-in (see the 19th & 20th) with peterme in recent history, too.

unfortunately, dave deleted his same-day scripting.com reply to peter's original stfu message. the gist was basically "peter merholz is being mean. he just started at epinions, and probably has a lot of options there", in what i perceived to be a "be nice, or i'll be mean to your new business" type of thing. lame.

he's conceited.
posted by mmanning at 9:54 PM on February 17, 2000

Dave Winer's the sort of person who ought to count to ten before saying things. (Hence the "don't edit me" thing today.) It's all a little embarrassing; especially when he chooses, of all people, Derek to attack. I laughed.

That said, the comment about ETP and Blogger being the Geocities and Xoom of the weblog world seems more than relevant here...

posted by holgate at 10:09 PM on February 17, 2000

What is wrong with this Winer guy? (I'd never heard of him before all this, perhaps that says enough.) He doesn't know when to stop, does he? He's continuing his uninformed, pea-brained comments, laying in to Pyra/Derek now.

He's got no suss at all. A curse on him and his domain.

posted by prolific at 10:41 PM on February 17, 2000

I adore two things about kottke.org, Metafilter and powazek.com: economy and cleanliness.

These are the only three weblogs I visit every day. I only visit Winer's site when it gets around that he's made an ass of himself. Monthly, at best. Or worst, I guess.

I don't even think of powazek.com as a Weblog, and I don't think Derek does either. It's just a site with occasional updates on his life. He has an economical voice, avoiding the sloppy lists of links and the "Today I took a shit and this is what I was reading ..." diaries that give Weblogs a bad name.

It's sad to see someone picking fights with Derek, consensus Friendliest Person on the Net four years running.
posted by luke at 10:55 PM on February 17, 2000

And, of course, these sites aren't just pretty. What, a sound-to-noise ratio of about .9? Where do most Weblogs rate -- .2? .1?
posted by luke at 11:42 PM on February 17, 2000

>>I have no idea why people hate opening new windows, I use >>large monitors at high resolutions and usually have 4 or 5 >>browser windows open at any time. I find Derek's opening >>new windows to be convenient, I can stop reading his >>entry, click a link, and continue to read his entries >>without losing my place in my current window.

I agree... I've always been a supporter of new windows. I usually read through something and open all the links up and let them load up while I read. Then I visit all the links. If the site doesn't automatically make a new window for me, I just open it in a new window myself.

And I do find it incredibly funny when people jump on things that have been around in a certain format for ages and ages. It makes me giggle, even.
posted by stefnet at 11:43 PM on February 17, 2000

Wait. My math is bad. Pretend .9 is 10:1; pretend .2 and .1 are 1:5 and 1:10, respectively.

I'm a journalist, not a math major.

When's that editing feature coming, Matt?
posted by luke at 11:49 PM on February 17, 2000

Yikes, that guy is a mean old bastard, trying to sound like David Siegel and coming across like Super Dave.

I'm confused though. This new think that Derek's a part of, it's a weblogger app? I don't quite get it.
posted by Cavatica at 6:30 AM on February 18, 2000

Basically, it's an web-based app that makes weblogging really easy. Similar to Dave's EditThisPage thing, but a lot more customizable and intuitive. (To me, anyway, but of course I'm biased since I use it). It does all the archive moving, etc for you.

I don't think Derek is actually werking on the app, but just redesigning the site for them.
posted by zannah at 7:11 AM on February 18, 2000


Does dave pronounce his name "whiner".
Because that's what he sounds like.
posted by tomcosgrave at 7:42 AM on February 18, 2000

And lets not forget that design isn't just making stuff look purty...it's about making things functional and communication. On that level, especially, does Derek's stuff succeed and Dave's stuff fail.
posted by jkottke at 7:55 AM on February 18, 2000

From Dave's Site:

BTW, the only reason I criticized Powazek is that I think his design sucks. I had tried it several times, so I know it had nothing to do with my mood. He preaches about his design skill so mightily. I think he's pompous, a set-up to be ragged on if there ever was one.

Not to sound rude, but with numerous Cool Site of the Day awards and like on Derek's part, this sounds like Design Envy or something, coming from Dave. It's one thing to believe and to know that you are good, but it's another to knock anyone who can't reach your 'standards'.

Hey, this should go into the Fray. :)
posted by Cavatica at 10:14 AM on February 18, 2000

BTW - the first paragraph is Dave's quote.
posted by Cavatica at 10:14 AM on February 18, 2000

I love you people.

Just to clear up a few misconceptions, I'm still one of the few, the proud, the freelancers. I'm working on a project for Pyra for the next few weeks. I couldn't have dreamed up a more fun project with cooler people. Stoked, I am.

As for the rest, I've taken the high road. If it's one thing I've learned from my experience with online communities, it's that silence is often the best response to insanity.

I do appreciate your support, though. So thank you. When I think about the "weblog community" it's you folks that come to mind.

Ever forward,

-- Derek

posted by fraying at 10:31 AM on February 18, 2000

Watch out for Dave at SXSW, I'd hate to see you get a pie-ing during the weblog forum.

No, strike that, I'd love to see it - but I'm not going to be there, so ...

posted by CrazyUncleJoe at 11:43 AM on February 18, 2000

Hi. I luv you people, too. :)

BTW, Dave won't be at SXSW. During the weblog panel, he and I will both be on a panel at PC Forum.

Should be interesting.
posted by evhead at 12:31 PM on February 18, 2000

On the *same* panel (moderated by he), that is.
posted by evhead at 12:32 PM on February 18, 2000

"He preaches about his design skill so mightily."

Anyone who has ever heard or read Derek say "I'm so good," please raise your hand.

No, I didn't think so.
posted by luke at 12:32 PM on February 18, 2000

Oh come on, Luke, he says it daily right after "I am God" and "Please sacrifice your children to me now" and "What do you mean the case of AK47s I ordered aren't going to come on time?"


posted by zannah at 12:48 PM on February 18, 2000


I just had a look at the readme section on Daves site. -

"No flames or personal comments about anyone are allowed. Any frustration-venting will immediately be deleted. This is not a place for you to be heard."

Talk about "do as I say, not as I do".
He really is full of shit, is Dave.

posted by tomcosgrave at 12:54 PM on February 18, 2000 [1 favorite]

>Our sites need a real designer. We have great tools and back-ends, we could add a lot of features to what you're doing.

from an email dave sent me late last year, trying to get me to go work for him. so, if derek is up there amongst my "top ten designers i admire" list, what does that say about dave wanting to hire me?
especially since ev wouldn't hire me, but he hired derek. ;-)
posted by brig at 1:55 PM on February 18, 2000

Greetings fellow citizens! You're all full of shit, so you might as well admit it. I wish Derek, Ev, Brigitte, the best wishes, the rest of you I don't know. And Brig, when I asked for your help that was before we got ETP going, and if I recall you were pleased to get the inquiry, I think you said it made your day. Have fun, enjoy your lives, and weblogs all the way!
posted by davewiner at 3:25 PM on February 18, 2000

Wait, call us pompous, too!
posted by luke at 3:40 PM on February 18, 2000 [1 favorite]

And call us setups to be ragged on!

As we say in Ireland "ya feckin' gobshite, ya!"
posted by tomcosgrave at 3:49 PM on February 18, 2000

it's true, i admit it, i was pleased to get the inquiry & it did make my day. i was trying to point out the irony, i guess it didn't come across as well as i'd hoped.
posted by brig at 4:10 PM on February 18, 2000

OK, you're all full of shit, and pompous.

BTW, I love Brig. And if Derek wasn't such a popularity junkie I probably would love him too.

Have a nice day!
posted by davewiner at 4:30 PM on February 18, 2000

<irony value=high>Yup, that's Derek all right. Mr. self-promotion. I wish he would just shut up about how great his products are and how many people use them. And he's a hypocrite! And he pretends there's only one way to do things on the Web! And he tells other people how to run their personal sites! And he's bland! And he's rude! And he misuses the subjunctive mood! </irony>

No, wait. I must be thinking of someone else.

posted by luke at 4:46 PM on February 18, 2000

There are now 30 comments on this thread, including this one.

Matt - is this a record? :-)
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:44 PM on February 18, 2000

heh, yeah, I should probably close it up before it gets any uglier.

I'm kidding actually, if anyone wants to keep kicking that dead horse over there, go right on ahead and do it.
posted by mathowie at 5:48 PM on February 18, 2000

Dave, I don't know if you're still listening, but could you give us a few examples of how Derek "preaches about his design skill so mightily" in a "pompous" manner?

As for your arrogance and pompousness, I can cite numerous examples of you telling us that Manila and ETP are going to change the world (which is total crap, by the way). Of course, that could just be corporate, rhetorical cheerleading. In that case, maybe you need to hop on the Cluetrain (see #24 in particular).

p.s. I would post this on the discussion groups over at Userland (assuming that I can figure out the correct animal skull to click on), but I fear that it would get erased and me booted from further participation. Again, hop on the Cluetrain (approx. #51-55 and several others pertaining to openess and the value of dissenting opinion).
posted by jkottke at 10:16 PM on February 18, 2000

Comment & Criticism. It's bound to happen on weblogs. There are ways, however, of making sure that the criticism isn't insulting, patronising, or rude.
The flip side is accepting that criticism gracefully, which it's clear Derek did and Dave didn't.
Hurling insult after insult ain't gonna help, and I'm suprised someone who always seemed clued in has had such a mental breakdown.
Now, I realise that coming from me that might seem a little pot'n'kettle. But I've always been careful not to single anyone out, or be rude without an element of humour. And even when Derek disagreed with my methods (i'm part of the dark side with dave), I can see past that to realise that he has a point. Enough so not to take offense at his offense, but learn a little from it.
In the end, what you say in your blog is public opinion, an I agree with Brig's latest rant that you have to be careful with what you say. You can't turn back the clock and pretend it didn't happen. If you are in a position of respect in a community, if you start hurling insults it belittles yourself and the community you are part of.
Hey, if I can learn something from all of this, surely Dave can too.
posted by Neale at 5:18 AM on February 19, 2000

Reflecting on Sparky's death. It occured to me, in light of this weekend's flamefest, of the irony of Charlie Brown, the boy who feels too much, being called a "blockhead" by his peers.

There's just a little bit too much blockheadedness coming from one side of this argument. And if weblogging is "about" anything, then it's not about being a blockhead.
posted by holgate at 4:15 PM on February 19, 2000

What flamefest? All I hear are a bunch of people mouthing off about my personality. I was talking about websites. I did say he's pompous. I regret that. When I've heard him speak I *thought* he was pompous. Regardless, I won't critique his website again unless he gets rid of the stupid user-hostile things his site does, for a simple reason, I won't be using it. Take care and have a great weekend, where ever you are.
posted by davewiner at 5:10 PM on February 19, 2000

>>Take care and have a great weekend, where ever you are.

Geez. Looks like somebody's trying to get on our good side all of a sudden. Well don't buy into it. He's still the devil! Crucify him!
posted by premiumpolar at 11:19 AM on February 20, 2000

7 words (and a song): Mose Allison's "Your Mind Is On Vacation"
posted by mathowie at 12:09 PM on February 20, 2000

Q: Where is it easiest to find adults acting like short-tempered idiots?Hint: Al Gore created it.
posted by gleemax at 1:32 PM on February 20, 2000

I think it's funny that after this shitstorm, led by MattHowie himself, Powazek now has implemented all of my suggestions! How about that. Shuv it up your ass Matt.
posted by davewiner at 3:34 PM on November 29, 2001

One more thing -- I love you guys!
posted by davewiner at 3:51 PM on November 29, 2001

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