Liberal Guilt
January 5, 2009 11:11 AM Subscribe
"Church was not part of my family life, and I don't think I ever expected to find myself being a Christian or, as I used to think of it, a 'religious nut.'"
Sara Miles grew up an atheist. One day she went into a church, took communion and had a moment with God. She's now a Christian that has made it her mission in life to feed the homeless. She's started a food pantry in the slums of San Francisco that feeds over 450 hungry families every week.
She's also a lesbian who is outspoken for gay marriage and considers herself a liberal but doesn't really care for liberal guilt.
And lo, she became a "religious nut" after all.
Dig the cross in the sandwich. Awesome.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:23 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Dig the cross in the sandwich. Awesome.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:23 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Someone told her, "it is not who you are, but who you know".
posted by Senator at 11:25 AM on January 5, 2009
posted by Senator at 11:25 AM on January 5, 2009
Helping others, giving generously and selflessly is a nice thing. It is a liberal thing, if conservatives tend to be a bit selfish and caught up with their own well being, but does that mean being liberal makes you guilty? I had thought that the guilt came because one reached out, felt sorry for those less fortunate. If I do work at a soup kitchen, I do not feel guilt for doing it.
As for her religion: fine. But it is possible to help others and not be religious...god works in mysterious ways. Even for guilt-ridden atheists.
posted by Postroad at 11:29 AM on January 5, 2009
As for her religion: fine. But it is possible to help others and not be religious...god works in mysterious ways. Even for guilt-ridden atheists.
posted by Postroad at 11:29 AM on January 5, 2009
MILES: And then a woman put a piece of fresh bread in my hand and gave me a goblet of some rather nasty, sweet wine. And I ate the bread and was completely thunderstruck by what I felt happening to me. So I stood there crying, completely unsure of what was happening to me. Got out of the church as quickly as I could before some strange, creepy Christian would try to chat with me, and came back the next week because I was hungry, and kept coming back and kept coming back to take that bread.
MILES: I think what I discovered in that moment when I put the bread in my mouth and was so blown away by the reality of the bread OMG the bread om nom nom the breeeead.
I think what she's doing is great. At the same time, I think Eddie Murphy's 'Ritz Crackers' routine applies here and she was terribly hungry when she had the bread. She talks again and again about the bread. She named her book after the bread. She put the bread as the cover. Wouldn't it be funny if all this was because she was crazy hungry and somebody had made some fresh bread.
I say that because that totally happened to me. One day a few years ago I was so hungry and then I realized there was a can of soup in the cupboard. And I said aloud "I could have soup!" And I kept saying it and it rang in my head like some never-before thought of revelation. "I could have soup!." ..."I could have soup. I can have soup!" "I can have soup."
Obviously that didn't make her do all the wonderful things she's done, but I swear I know that feeling. Her incessant talk of the bread reminds me of my own soup ravings.
posted by cashman at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2009 [11 favorites]
MILES: I think what I discovered in that moment when I put the bread in my mouth and was so blown away by the reality of the bread OMG the bread om nom nom the breeeead.
I think what she's doing is great. At the same time, I think Eddie Murphy's 'Ritz Crackers' routine applies here and she was terribly hungry when she had the bread. She talks again and again about the bread. She named her book after the bread. She put the bread as the cover. Wouldn't it be funny if all this was because she was crazy hungry and somebody had made some fresh bread.
I say that because that totally happened to me. One day a few years ago I was so hungry and then I realized there was a can of soup in the cupboard. And I said aloud "I could have soup!" And I kept saying it and it rang in my head like some never-before thought of revelation. "I could have soup!." ..."I could have soup. I can have soup!" "I can have soup."
Obviously that didn't make her do all the wonderful things she's done, but I swear I know that feeling. Her incessant talk of the bread reminds me of my own soup ravings.
posted by cashman at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2009 [11 favorites]
"She's now a Christian that who has made it her mission in life to feed the homeless. She's started a food pantry in the slums of San Francisco that feeds over 450 hungry families every week. She's also a lesbian that who"
"Sara Miles grew up an atheist."
Unlikely, useless the child is indoctrinated, as in a religion. Would you say that a child grew up "a-ToothFairyist" if never introduced to that fiction? "A-StaurtLittle-ist"?
In all likelihood, Sarah did not attend a weekly service that emphasized, with liturgy, song, and instruction the fictional nature of Jesus's father (or of Thor, or of Raven). We don't invent a special name for children who aren't told about Hansel and Gretel or the tale of The Old Women Who Lived in a Shoe; Sarah simply grew up without one additional fairy-tale, about the magic voyeur who, when he's not changing water into wine, orders genocide: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
posted by orthogonality at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
"Sara Miles grew up an atheist."
Unlikely, useless the child is indoctrinated, as in a religion. Would you say that a child grew up "a-ToothFairyist" if never introduced to that fiction? "A-StaurtLittle-ist"?
In all likelihood, Sarah did not attend a weekly service that emphasized, with liturgy, song, and instruction the fictional nature of Jesus's father (or of Thor, or of Raven). We don't invent a special name for children who aren't told about Hansel and Gretel or the tale of The Old Women Who Lived in a Shoe; Sarah simply grew up without one additional fairy-tale, about the magic voyeur who, when he's not changing water into wine, orders genocide: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
posted by orthogonality at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
I'm sure she's doing good works, but where you hear the rhetoric "liberal guilt", you'll often hear coded diatribes against "political correctness" or "affirmative action", while noting the importance of "defending marriage from gays", "leaving no child behind", funding "faith-based initiatives" and sending our boys overseas to "protect freedom". While she may be correct about some things, her piety doesn't automatically lend legitimacy to all of them, so it pays to be wary.
Reversing the meaning of words is an interesting rhetorical tactic, when a person should be made to feel shame for even simply being aware of some default biases in the system, let alone trying to correct for them in small, personal ways -- by, say, working at a kitchen or donating food or clothing -- or even systemic ways, by working to elect leaders who will do the right thing.
There is a lot of wondrous doublespeak used by those in a position of power, just to maintain the status quo. It's a shame to see good people get corrupted by it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:35 AM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
Reversing the meaning of words is an interesting rhetorical tactic, when a person should be made to feel shame for even simply being aware of some default biases in the system, let alone trying to correct for them in small, personal ways -- by, say, working at a kitchen or donating food or clothing -- or even systemic ways, by working to elect leaders who will do the right thing.
There is a lot of wondrous doublespeak used by those in a position of power, just to maintain the status quo. It's a shame to see good people get corrupted by it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:35 AM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
She's also a lesbian who"
Ugh, I really suck at grammar. I sat and reread that hoping I had that right. I can handle the pile on's and the snark, but I get so frustrated at myself for not catching grammatical errors.
I'll send an email to the powers that be to fix that. Thank you for catching it!
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:40 AM on January 5, 2009
Ugh, I really suck at grammar. I sat and reread that hoping I had that right. I can handle the pile on's and the snark, but I get so frustrated at myself for not catching grammatical errors.
I'll send an email to the powers that be to fix that. Thank you for catching it!
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:40 AM on January 5, 2009
Liberal Guilt isn't bad - as I understand it, it's the notion that liberals who are well-to-do are doing acts of kindness and good because they feel guilty for their well-being, perhaps with the idea that their place in the world was gained by the suffering or loss of others. Sure, you can play the martyr card, publicly repent for your sins by doing well for the less fortunate, or you can be a good person whenever the opportunity arises, or go out of your way to help others. Calling the news when you host a fund-raiser is one thing; feeding the hungry on a weekly basis is another.
I've traded one set of neurotic obsessions for another, I think. I like this line, because being a follower of some faith-based ideology doesn't mean you're crazy. People are crazy for all sorts of reasons.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:46 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I've traded one set of neurotic obsessions for another, I think. I like this line, because being a follower of some faith-based ideology doesn't mean you're crazy. People are crazy for all sorts of reasons.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:46 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
orthogonality, that wasn't insulting or paternalistic at all. No, not at all.
posted by oddman at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2009 [16 favorites]
posted by oddman at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2009 [16 favorites]
From what I have gathered from her "liberal guilt" bit was that it's not that she serves the less fortunate because she feels guilty about it, but because it's just a good thing to do and in turn it makes you feel wonderful about yourself as well.
I work at a homeless shelter and I often find myself feeling terribly sorrow for the people that show up. And then on top of that I feel guilty as hell for as well off as I am (compared to them). I keep reminding myself "this is a good thing to do and good will come from it."
I don't know if that's right or wrong. Maybe it is what is, however it sure does make me feel good in the end and I hope someone getting a sandwhich, a bath and some clean socks makes them feel good too.
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I work at a homeless shelter and I often find myself feeling terribly sorrow for the people that show up. And then on top of that I feel guilty as hell for as well off as I am (compared to them). I keep reminding myself "this is a good thing to do and good will come from it."
I don't know if that's right or wrong. Maybe it is what is, however it sure does make me feel good in the end and I hope someone getting a sandwhich, a bath and some clean socks makes them feel good too.
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
One day she went into a church, took communion and had a moment with God. She's now a Christian that has made it her mission in life to feed the homeless.
Good for her and her community. I don't buy into the whole "god" thing, myself. But I can concede that charitable acts done in his name are generally no-less beneficial for the people who's lives are being made better.
If finding god makes you feel good about yourself, that's great. If finding god makes you want to selflessly devote your time to making the lives of others around you better with no strings attached? That's fantastic. I can criticize the influence of the church all day long, but I'm also perfectly ok with pointing out when someone is inspired by the best parts of religion.
It doesn't happen often enough, in my opinion. But it sure is nice when it does.
posted by quin at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
Good for her and her community. I don't buy into the whole "god" thing, myself. But I can concede that charitable acts done in his name are generally no-less beneficial for the people who's lives are being made better.
If finding god makes you feel good about yourself, that's great. If finding god makes you want to selflessly devote your time to making the lives of others around you better with no strings attached? That's fantastic. I can criticize the influence of the church all day long, but I'm also perfectly ok with pointing out when someone is inspired by the best parts of religion.
It doesn't happen often enough, in my opinion. But it sure is nice when it does.
posted by quin at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
The Myth Of Religion
-------------------------------
1) Grew up atheist
2) "Found" God
3) Now does good works
The implication, and the utility of such an implication to "the opiate of the masses", is left to the reader.
posted by DU at 11:56 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
-------------------------------
1) Grew up atheist
2) "Found" God
3) Now does good works
The implication, and the utility of such an implication to "the opiate of the masses", is left to the reader.
posted by DU at 11:56 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
DU,
I read her book a while back. According to what she wrote, she was sort of doing this before she "found God." It's just that she utilized church space to feed a mass of people.
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:58 AM on January 5, 2009
I read her book a while back. According to what she wrote, she was sort of doing this before she "found God." It's just that she utilized church space to feed a mass of people.
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:58 AM on January 5, 2009
Would you say that a child grew up "a-ToothFairyist" if never introduced to that fiction? "A-StaurtLittle-ist"?
If upwards of 80% of a nation believed in the Tooth Fairy as a real entity, and many of those felt that the Tooth Fairy's reality was the single most significant thing about their lives, then, yes, of course, there would be some term to describe the minority who felt differently.
If the word "atheist" didn't exist, there would be all kinds of people clamoring to create it. "Why the hell does everyone else have a simple term to describe their beliefs and we aren't even credited with a label?"
Signed,
A former atheist who always found the term useful
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:59 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
If upwards of 80% of a nation believed in the Tooth Fairy as a real entity, and many of those felt that the Tooth Fairy's reality was the single most significant thing about their lives, then, yes, of course, there would be some term to describe the minority who felt differently.
If the word "atheist" didn't exist, there would be all kinds of people clamoring to create it. "Why the hell does everyone else have a simple term to describe their beliefs and we aren't even credited with a label?"
Signed,
A former atheist who always found the term useful
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:59 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Some of y'all are being really mean.
I've been to services at St. Gregory's, and I could see how it could be a life-changing experience for someone who wanted a religious experience but was squicked out by religion. It's a very beautiful place.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
I've been to services at St. Gregory's, and I could see how it could be a life-changing experience for someone who wanted a religious experience but was squicked out by religion. It's a very beautiful place.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
Would like to see MSM article:
1. Grew up holy-roller religious
2. Discovered humanitarianism, atheism, agnosticism
3. Began doing good works
(Or is this not newsworthy? Believable? Socially inspiring?)
posted by terranova at 12:08 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
1. Grew up holy-roller religious
2. Discovered humanitarianism, atheism, agnosticism
3. Began doing good works
(Or is this not newsworthy? Believable? Socially inspiring?)
posted by terranova at 12:08 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
The implication, and the utility of such an implication to "the opiate of the masses", is left to the reader.
Strange, because in reading her story, I didn't get the impression that she was some unfeeling robot who looked out for number one, until the day she walked into church. As Hands of Manos notes, she'd been socially active before. She had a transformative experience and it's part of her motivation to do good things. I'd say that's a plus, and I can't say I see where any "implication" arises out of that.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:11 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Strange, because in reading her story, I didn't get the impression that she was some unfeeling robot who looked out for number one, until the day she walked into church. As Hands of Manos notes, she'd been socially active before. She had a transformative experience and it's part of her motivation to do good things. I'd say that's a plus, and I can't say I see where any "implication" arises out of that.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:11 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
If the word "atheist" didn't exist, there would be all kinds of people clamoring to create it. "Why the hell does everyone else have a simple term to describe their beliefs and we aren't even credited with a label?'
I think this is exactly the point orthogonality was trying to make. There is (or should be) no simple term to describe the beliefs of atheists because atheists don't necessarily share common beliefs. They just don't buy into one particular line of BS.
posted by Manjusri at 12:21 PM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
I think this is exactly the point orthogonality was trying to make. There is (or should be) no simple term to describe the beliefs of atheists because atheists don't necessarily share common beliefs. They just don't buy into one particular line of BS.
posted by Manjusri at 12:21 PM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
Unlikely, useless the child is indoctrinated, as in a religion. Would you say that a child grew up "a-ToothFairyist" if never introduced to that fiction? "A-StaurtLittle-ist"?
She mentions atheist parents who don't support her conversion, so we don't know if she was "raised an atheist" or not, minus the first few chapters of the book.
And parents absolutely can and do "raise a child as an atheist". It may not be as common, but I could introduce you to a friend of mine who absolutely was "indoctrinated" from toddlerhood on how religious folks (Christians, especially) were weaker, less intelligent proles for believing in a higher power, and should not be treated with any sort of tolerance. His dad was more of an angry, bitter drunk than a Marxist, but whatever.
posted by availablelight at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2009
She mentions atheist parents who don't support her conversion, so we don't know if she was "raised an atheist" or not, minus the first few chapters of the book.
And parents absolutely can and do "raise a child as an atheist". It may not be as common, but I could introduce you to a friend of mine who absolutely was "indoctrinated" from toddlerhood on how religious folks (Christians, especially) were weaker, less intelligent proles for believing in a higher power, and should not be treated with any sort of tolerance. His dad was more of an angry, bitter drunk than a Marxist, but whatever.
posted by availablelight at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2009
I did a story a while back on some similar figures in Philly, at least as far as their involvement in the grassroots poverty movement and the religious motivation behind it. The further you get from the larger, better funded, more mainstream social service agencies and the closer you get to these sort of shoestring grassroots ventures the greater the presence of charismatic religous types. It's essentially unavoidable if you intend to work in the field and I honestly never let it bother me for that reason. These people were there in the community working in the trenches waaaaaaaay before I got there so I always had a tremendous respect for them despite the fact that I thought some of their ideas were a little wacky. Basically, we're on the same team with respect to a very broad area of different social justice topics so if you kept the discussion off the subject of Jesus directly you honestly wouldn't even know you disagreed about it.
However, I have been in street corner missions to meet with clients where some serious hellfire and brimstone was raining down and in those moments I just sort of detatched and observed and honestly was kind of blown away, albeit at what I thought was a sort of an intensely bizarre scene.
Even at the big, mainstream social service agencies there's a huge number of people working there on a religious mission. Big city social service agencies tend to be heavily black and latino and the black and latino communities in the city are seriously Christian, so it's not uncommon at my current job to see people having casual conversations over the Bible on their lunch breaks. I honestly can't say I've ever been bothered by it, my coworkers are totally cool and I actually enjoy ear hustling their Jesus talks just out of my own personal curiousity about what a that kind of conversation between a group of educated young black social workers consists of.
posted by The Straightener at 12:31 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
However, I have been in street corner missions to meet with clients where some serious hellfire and brimstone was raining down and in those moments I just sort of detatched and observed and honestly was kind of blown away, albeit at what I thought was a sort of an intensely bizarre scene.
Even at the big, mainstream social service agencies there's a huge number of people working there on a religious mission. Big city social service agencies tend to be heavily black and latino and the black and latino communities in the city are seriously Christian, so it's not uncommon at my current job to see people having casual conversations over the Bible on their lunch breaks. I honestly can't say I've ever been bothered by it, my coworkers are totally cool and I actually enjoy ear hustling their Jesus talks just out of my own personal curiousity about what a that kind of conversation between a group of educated young black social workers consists of.
posted by The Straightener at 12:31 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Discovered humanitarianism, atheism, agnosticism, Began doing good works
(Or is this not newsworthy? Believable? Socially inspiring?)
I don't consider that story particularly believable. I've modified it a little for you, in case you want to sell it to the media:
1. Grew up religious
2. Became atheist
3. Whined about it incessantly on the Internet
posted by shii at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2009 [15 favorites]
(Or is this not newsworthy? Believable? Socially inspiring?)
I don't consider that story particularly believable. I've modified it a little for you, in case you want to sell it to the media:
1. Grew up religious
2. Became atheist
3. Whined about it incessantly on the Internet
posted by shii at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2009 [15 favorites]
Bruce Kent left the priesthood rather than follow his cardinal's instructions and give up politics.
posted by Abiezer at 12:54 PM on January 5, 2009
posted by Abiezer at 12:54 PM on January 5, 2009
"And parents absolutely can and do "raise a child as an atheist". It may not be as common, but I could introduce you to a friend of mine who absolutely was "indoctrinated" from toddlerhood on how religious folks (Christians, especially) were weaker, less intelligent proles for believing in a higher power, and should not be treated with any sort of tolerance"
Sounds like your friend was indoctrinated with some false beliefs, but these beliefs are not atheism. I reject these beliefs, does that mean I'm not atheist even though I reject Christianity? The problem with the phrase 'raised as atheist' is that it does paint this illusory picture of equivalence. Like there are two competing bodies of thought, both based on equally sound (or unsound) reasoning, and switching between them is an essentially esthetic choice.
posted by Manjusri at 12:55 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sounds like your friend was indoctrinated with some false beliefs, but these beliefs are not atheism. I reject these beliefs, does that mean I'm not atheist even though I reject Christianity? The problem with the phrase 'raised as atheist' is that it does paint this illusory picture of equivalence. Like there are two competing bodies of thought, both based on equally sound (or unsound) reasoning, and switching between them is an essentially esthetic choice.
posted by Manjusri at 12:55 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I read her book, and it is a story worth reading.
The Metafilterterian knee-jerk revulsion/reaction towards anyone who takes religion/spirituality seriously is the worst part of this otherwise fantastic site.
posted by Roach at 1:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [12 favorites]
The Metafilterterian knee-jerk revulsion/reaction towards anyone who takes religion/spirituality seriously is the worst part of this otherwise fantastic site.
posted by Roach at 1:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [12 favorites]
His dad was more of an angry, bitter drunk than a Marxist
Same difference.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:03 PM on January 5, 2009
Same difference.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:03 PM on January 5, 2009
The problem with the phrase 'raised as atheist' is that it does paint this illusory picture of equivalence. Like there are two competing bodies of thought, both based on equally sound (or unsound) reasoning, and switching between them is an essentially esthetic choice.
Oh, I don't know about pictures of equivalence. Children can be raised to be wonderful human beings from an atheist or a religious background. Their backgrounds are not equivalent in the sense of "the same", even beyond the aesthetic, but similar values can stem from either upbringing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:06 PM on January 5, 2009
Oh, I don't know about pictures of equivalence. Children can be raised to be wonderful human beings from an atheist or a religious background. Their backgrounds are not equivalent in the sense of "the same", even beyond the aesthetic, but similar values can stem from either upbringing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:06 PM on January 5, 2009
I'm curious about the part where the atheist just happens ("for no earthly reason") to wander into a church and take communion: "I walked into this building thinking, 'Huh, wonder what's going on in there?'"
For "curious" read "skeptical".
Stories like this... well, for me they have exactly the opposite effect from what is intended. "And then a miracle occurred!" is the least satisfying narrative technique ever, and it pushes me away from the faith more strongly than anything else could.
The whole core of her story is this radical spontaneous transformation, but in none of the excerpts from the book or the transcripted interview does she seem the least bit curious about what, exactly, happened. It just... happens. She eats a wafer, she is thunderstruck, she becomes a Christian. Ta-dah!
Maybe she goes into more detail in the book, though the excerpts quoted on her site and in the interviews don't make me particularly hopeful in that regard. If she does I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I'm an atheist but not a militant one; I have close friends who are strong believers of several different faiths, and the value they derive from religion is obvious. And this conversion seems to have been a good thing for Sarah Miles. Got her a book deal, anyway. So, seriously, good for her. But still. If this is meant to inspire people who don't already agree with her, it's had the opposite effect for at least one person.
posted by ook at 1:11 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
For "curious" read "skeptical".
Stories like this... well, for me they have exactly the opposite effect from what is intended. "And then a miracle occurred!" is the least satisfying narrative technique ever, and it pushes me away from the faith more strongly than anything else could.
The whole core of her story is this radical spontaneous transformation, but in none of the excerpts from the book or the transcripted interview does she seem the least bit curious about what, exactly, happened. It just... happens. She eats a wafer, she is thunderstruck, she becomes a Christian. Ta-dah!
Maybe she goes into more detail in the book, though the excerpts quoted on her site and in the interviews don't make me particularly hopeful in that regard. If she does I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I'm an atheist but not a militant one; I have close friends who are strong believers of several different faiths, and the value they derive from religion is obvious. And this conversion seems to have been a good thing for Sarah Miles. Got her a book deal, anyway. So, seriously, good for her. But still. If this is meant to inspire people who don't already agree with her, it's had the opposite effect for at least one person.
posted by ook at 1:11 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
The notion of raising a child as an atheist is silly. Raising a child implies to me that you are actually doing something constructive (or destructive) by using your influence as a parent.
To raise a child Christian involves stuff (Christening, Sunday School, the whole God thing).
To raise a child with no beliefs in the Supernatural involves nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Regarding the links, good for her. She does nice things and believes in things that I don't. I also don't expect to find myself becoming a Christian, but I never discount it. The mind is a screwed up thing. I never discount the fact that I'm actually the Messiah either. Only time and my sanity will tell.
posted by twistedonion at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2009
To raise a child Christian involves stuff (Christening, Sunday School, the whole God thing).
To raise a child with no beliefs in the Supernatural involves nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Regarding the links, good for her. She does nice things and believes in things that I don't. I also don't expect to find myself becoming a Christian, but I never discount it. The mind is a screwed up thing. I never discount the fact that I'm actually the Messiah either. Only time and my sanity will tell.
posted by twistedonion at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2009
ook,
In the book she says that she realized she'd been feeding people all her life (and not just at the transformation). I believe that Christianity only enhanced her "giving food" state of mind. That's what I gathered from the book.
It's a good read, I was really touched by it. Whether she's a Christian, Atheist or anything else...good on her for helping out the less fortunate and good for her about not doing it out of guilt.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:21 PM on January 5, 2009
In the book she says that she realized she'd been feeding people all her life (and not just at the transformation). I believe that Christianity only enhanced her "giving food" state of mind. That's what I gathered from the book.
It's a good read, I was really touched by it. Whether she's a Christian, Atheist or anything else...good on her for helping out the less fortunate and good for her about not doing it out of guilt.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:21 PM on January 5, 2009
This thread is useless until it addresses the question that's on everybody's lips: ie, is Sarah still drinking her own piss?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm curious about the part where the atheist just happens ("for no earthly reason") to wander into a church and take communion: "I walked into this building thinking, 'Huh, wonder what's going on in there?'"
St Gregory's is a lovely and unusual building, and the inside has a stunning mural of various "saints" (I use the quotes because not all the people in the mural have officially been declared saints by whomever) dancing. There's nothing intimidating about the entrance, and the people I encountered there on the one time I went were all really nice. I can easily imagine someone just wandering in, because it's a cool building like that.
posted by rtha at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2009
St Gregory's is a lovely and unusual building, and the inside has a stunning mural of various "saints" (I use the quotes because not all the people in the mural have officially been declared saints by whomever) dancing. There's nothing intimidating about the entrance, and the people I encountered there on the one time I went were all really nice. I can easily imagine someone just wandering in, because it's a cool building like that.
posted by rtha at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2009
"I'm curious about the part where the atheist just happens ("for no earthly reason") to wander into a church and take communion: "I walked into this building thinking, 'Huh, wonder what's going on in there?'"
The part I failed to leave out of the post was that she was a reporter (in South America mostly) and that she had a natural curiosity of things. She'd walked past this church many times and decided to go in to see what it was all about.
Sorry about leaving that part out.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2009
The part I failed to leave out of the post was that she was a reporter (in South America mostly) and that she had a natural curiosity of things. She'd walked past this church many times and decided to go in to see what it was all about.
Sorry about leaving that part out.
posted by Hands of Manos at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2009
The part I failed to leave out of the post was that she was a reporter (in South America mostly) and that she had a natural curiosity of things. She'd walked past this church many times and decided to go in to see what it was all about.
And in fairness, she does say exactly that in the PBS link.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:32 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
And in fairness, she does say exactly that in the PBS link.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:32 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
We've taken communion by mistake. We're in this church here. Are you the priest?
Stop saying that Withnail, of course he's the fucking priest!
posted by mandal at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2009
Stop saying that Withnail, of course he's the fucking priest!
posted by mandal at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2009
"To raise a child Christian involves stuff (Christening, Sunday School, the whole God thing).
To raise a child with no beliefs in the Supernatural involves nothing. Absolutely nothing. "
On the contrary, raising a child with no beliefs in the supernatural involves actively teaching them that all the religious around them are wrong, and all the stuff about ghosts and so on that's on TV and in magazines is wrong and teaching them that adults frequently have screwball ideas, and how to sort fact from fiction generally.
Parents aren't the only ones involved in raising a child. Society on a wider scale is, and to raise an atheist takes I think some activity to counteract that effect.
posted by edd at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
To raise a child with no beliefs in the Supernatural involves nothing. Absolutely nothing. "
On the contrary, raising a child with no beliefs in the supernatural involves actively teaching them that all the religious around them are wrong, and all the stuff about ghosts and so on that's on TV and in magazines is wrong and teaching them that adults frequently have screwball ideas, and how to sort fact from fiction generally.
Parents aren't the only ones involved in raising a child. Society on a wider scale is, and to raise an atheist takes I think some activity to counteract that effect.
posted by edd at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
I think what she's doing is great. At the same time, I think Eddie Murphy's 'Ritz Crackers' routine applies here and she was terribly hungry when she had the bread.
This is one of the things that led to my long-time conviction that Arby's is a fantastic, top-quality eating establishment.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2009
This is one of the things that led to my long-time conviction that Arby's is a fantastic, top-quality eating establishment.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2009
This is one of the things that led to my long-time conviction that Arby's is a fantastic, top-quality eating establishment.
This clinched it for me.
posted by jonmc at 2:39 PM on January 5, 2009
This clinched it for me.
posted by jonmc at 2:39 PM on January 5, 2009
edd writes: "On the contrary, raising a child with no beliefs in the supernatural involves actively teaching them that all the religious around them are wrong, and all the stuff about ghosts and so on that's on TV and in magazines is wrong and teaching them that adults frequently have screwball ideas, and how to sort fact from fiction generally."
Sounds like what they do at most Divinity Schools.
Those who think that religion is merely about "belief" are hunting the snark. People join religious organizations for a variety of reasons. How they think of God is usually a bit more complex, than just believing in the tooth fairy. Half of the old ladies in my church don't even believe in the afterlife. Nor is it just about doing good things. Talk about God is more like reading poetry than listing facts. Facts might be more interesting to some, but that is an aesthetic choice. A religious lens is one way to live a life more fully.
Not the only way, of course.
posted by john wilkins at 2:49 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
Sounds like what they do at most Divinity Schools.
Those who think that religion is merely about "belief" are hunting the snark. People join religious organizations for a variety of reasons. How they think of God is usually a bit more complex, than just believing in the tooth fairy. Half of the old ladies in my church don't even believe in the afterlife. Nor is it just about doing good things. Talk about God is more like reading poetry than listing facts. Facts might be more interesting to some, but that is an aesthetic choice. A religious lens is one way to live a life more fully.
Not the only way, of course.
posted by john wilkins at 2:49 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
"The Metafilterterian knee-jerk revulsion/reaction towards anyone who takes religion/spirituality seriously is the worst part of this otherwise fantastic site."
That's a bit disingenuous. I don't see anyone reacting to her personally with revulsion. I do see a healthy amount of disdain for the proselytizing flavor of the post. Did you expect to see a post about a former atheist only attract posters who take religion seriously?
"On the contrary, raising a child with no beliefs in the supernatural involves actively teaching them that all the religious around them are wrong, and all the stuff about ghosts and so on that's on TV and in magazines is wrong and teaching them that adults frequently have screwball ideas, and how to sort fact from fiction generally"
I think simply doing the latter (teaching a kid to think rationally) can accomplish the former. My mother did her best to indoctrinate me with religion along with a healthy assortment of other superstitions. My dad taught me chess and turned me on to science fiction. Guess who won?
posted by Manjusri at 3:21 PM on January 5, 2009
That's a bit disingenuous. I don't see anyone reacting to her personally with revulsion. I do see a healthy amount of disdain for the proselytizing flavor of the post. Did you expect to see a post about a former atheist only attract posters who take religion seriously?
"On the contrary, raising a child with no beliefs in the supernatural involves actively teaching them that all the religious around them are wrong, and all the stuff about ghosts and so on that's on TV and in magazines is wrong and teaching them that adults frequently have screwball ideas, and how to sort fact from fiction generally"
I think simply doing the latter (teaching a kid to think rationally) can accomplish the former. My mother did her best to indoctrinate me with religion along with a healthy assortment of other superstitions. My dad taught me chess and turned me on to science fiction. Guess who won?
posted by Manjusri at 3:21 PM on January 5, 2009
And I ate the bread and was completely thunderstruck by what I felt happening to me. ... I think what I discovered in that moment when I put the bread in my mouth and was so blown away by the reality of the bread OMG the bread om nom nom the breeeead.
Ergot's a helluva drug.
posted by nicwolff at 3:28 PM on January 5, 2009
Ergot's a helluva drug.
posted by nicwolff at 3:28 PM on January 5, 2009
Guess who won?
I didn't realize there was a contest going on between religion and science. At least, I was under the impression the only people who still buy that dichotomy prefer simplistic, cartoonish imaginings of the "other".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I didn't realize there was a contest going on between religion and science. At least, I was under the impression the only people who still buy that dichotomy prefer simplistic, cartoonish imaginings of the "other".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think this is exactly the point orthogonality was trying to make. There is (or should be) no simple term to describe the beliefs of atheists because atheists don't necessarily share common beliefs. They just don't buy into one particular line of BS.
Oh, come on. Atheists absolutely do share at least one common belief, and it's the one that allows them to be called atheists by definition. If you were interested at all in being fair or consistent, you would react similarly to the term "Christian," a word that refers to a myriad of not entirely compatible belief systems involving Jesus Christ. You would still be wrong to do so, but at least you would be consistent.
Anyway: good on Sara for her deeds. I don't empathize with her conviction, but it sure seems to encourage her, so why not a thumbs-up for the mix of Sara Miles and Jesus?
posted by invitapriore at 3:50 PM on January 5, 2009
Oh, come on. Atheists absolutely do share at least one common belief, and it's the one that allows them to be called atheists by definition. If you were interested at all in being fair or consistent, you would react similarly to the term "Christian," a word that refers to a myriad of not entirely compatible belief systems involving Jesus Christ. You would still be wrong to do so, but at least you would be consistent.
Anyway: good on Sara for her deeds. I don't empathize with her conviction, but it sure seems to encourage her, so why not a thumbs-up for the mix of Sara Miles and Jesus?
posted by invitapriore at 3:50 PM on January 5, 2009
Marisa Stole the Precious Thing writes "I didn't realize there was a contest going on between religion and science."
Not just science, but all of society.
Not just science, but all of society.
"Hence a certain tension between religion and society marks the higher stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness. Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a "conflict between science and religion." Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control, and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and-after some hesitation- the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile among the oppressed another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization." Will Durant, (The Story of Civilization V.1., 71)posted by mullingitover at 3:52 PM on January 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
mullingitover:
Thanks for that comment. I miss Durant.
posted by RussHy at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2009
Thanks for that comment. I miss Durant.
posted by RussHy at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2009
Let me put it another way: I wasn't aware that people were supposed to be solidly and completely allied with either religion or science. I'm aware that there are forces on both sides who are antagonistic towards each other.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:21 PM on January 5, 2009
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:21 PM on January 5, 2009
"I didn't realize there was a contest going on between religion and science."
Never heard of intelligent design? Some aspects and forms of religion, even christianity can be reconciled with a rational or scientific world-view. But other forms are clearly in competition with science and rational thought on a variety of fronts, esp. time in the classroom and influence over public policy in general.
"Oh, come on. Atheists absolutely do share at least one common belief, and it's the one that allows them to be called atheists by definition."
Come on yourself. Lack of a belief is not in itself a belief. This is axiomatic and (should be) noncontroversial. Even if you buy that Atheists all actively believe in the nonexistence of God, that still does not constitute a body of belief that someone can be said to have been "raised as".
posted by Manjusri at 4:49 PM on January 5, 2009
Never heard of intelligent design? Some aspects and forms of religion, even christianity can be reconciled with a rational or scientific world-view. But other forms are clearly in competition with science and rational thought on a variety of fronts, esp. time in the classroom and influence over public policy in general.
"Oh, come on. Atheists absolutely do share at least one common belief, and it's the one that allows them to be called atheists by definition."
Come on yourself. Lack of a belief is not in itself a belief. This is axiomatic and (should be) noncontroversial. Even if you buy that Atheists all actively believe in the nonexistence of God, that still does not constitute a body of belief that someone can be said to have been "raised as".
posted by Manjusri at 4:49 PM on January 5, 2009
"I didn't realize there was a contest going on between religion and science."
Science is in a contest with itself. Religion just gets trampled on whenever it's foolish enough to lay claim to territory science has an interest in.
posted by edd at 4:57 PM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
Science is in a contest with itself. Religion just gets trampled on whenever it's foolish enough to lay claim to territory science has an interest in.
posted by edd at 4:57 PM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
I wasn't aware that people were supposed to be solidly and completely allied with either religion or science.
On the one side, you've got an epistemology which claims that you need empirical proof to make objective claims. On the other side, you've got a set of objective claims that are completely lacking in empirical proof. Gee, the conflict must obviously be human, because I can't see any innate conflict there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:06 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
On the one side, you've got an epistemology which claims that you need empirical proof to make objective claims. On the other side, you've got a set of objective claims that are completely lacking in empirical proof. Gee, the conflict must obviously be human, because I can't see any innate conflict there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:06 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
i was "raised as an atheist" but i don't think i realized it until i was old enough for my friends to give me shit for not believing in god. my parents never told me what an atheist was or exactly what or whom it was that we were supposed to be rejecting, because we weren't. i was raised a democratic socialist, however, so i know what it's like to be indoctrinated.
i will say that the one huge advantage that the religious have over atheists is their ability to form communities. atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done, nor do the slackers have the prospect of eternal damnation to scare them into doing the right thing to keep up appearances.
i suppose most atheists assume that the government is the vehicle for large-scale assistance, but it's usually so busy fighting religious wars that it's hard to turn it to any other task.
posted by klanawa at 5:07 PM on January 5, 2009
i will say that the one huge advantage that the religious have over atheists is their ability to form communities. atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done, nor do the slackers have the prospect of eternal damnation to scare them into doing the right thing to keep up appearances.
i suppose most atheists assume that the government is the vehicle for large-scale assistance, but it's usually so busy fighting religious wars that it's hard to turn it to any other task.
posted by klanawa at 5:07 PM on January 5, 2009
klanawa writes "i will say that the one huge advantage that the religious have over atheists is their ability to form communities. atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done, nor do the slackers have the prospect of eternal damnation to scare them into doing the right thing to keep up appearances. "
Utter nonsense. You're conversing in a secular community, thus gutting your first point. The second fallacy here is that you need religion to be able to be a 'good person' or to know what 'good works' are. These things are intrinsic to healthy humans who have had their fundamental needs met; religion is a side effect a not a cause of community.
Another fun and relevant quote:
Utter nonsense. You're conversing in a secular community, thus gutting your first point. The second fallacy here is that you need religion to be able to be a 'good person' or to know what 'good works' are. These things are intrinsic to healthy humans who have had their fundamental needs met; religion is a side effect a not a cause of community.
Another fun and relevant quote:
“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.” - Arthur C. Clarkeposted by mullingitover at 5:30 PM on January 5, 2009
nor do the slackers have the prospect of eternal damnation to scare them into doing the right thing to keep up appearances. "
The thing about atheism and religion is that we're good because we value goodness, not because we have an invisible gun to our heads.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:52 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
The thing about atheism and religion is that we're good because we value goodness, not because we have an invisible gun to our heads.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:52 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Atheism and morality, rather. Bah.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:55 PM on January 5, 2009
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:55 PM on January 5, 2009
She'd walked past this church many times and decided to go in to see what it was all about.
I did see that. I can completely understand walking into a church out of curiosity, or because it's got nice murals, or what have you. I can't see taking part in the sacrament on a whim, however. Personally I'd think it awfully disrespectful to perform the central ritual of somebody else's faith as a nonbeliever, just on a lark. I see the PBS link says they "offer it to everybody" at that church, so, okay, maybe... but I still have a hard time believing this conversion was nearly as unpremeditated and spontaneous as she makes it out to be.
Meanwhile, I take back what I said earlier: the emptiness of "and then a miracle occurred!" is not the thing that pushes me away from faith more than anything else. What really does is asshole statements like this one, which seem to come up in every single thread about religion:
atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done
For "have", try "need". Ethics and faith are not synonymous, thank you very much.
posted by ook at 6:17 PM on January 5, 2009
I did see that. I can completely understand walking into a church out of curiosity, or because it's got nice murals, or what have you. I can't see taking part in the sacrament on a whim, however. Personally I'd think it awfully disrespectful to perform the central ritual of somebody else's faith as a nonbeliever, just on a lark. I see the PBS link says they "offer it to everybody" at that church, so, okay, maybe... but I still have a hard time believing this conversion was nearly as unpremeditated and spontaneous as she makes it out to be.
Meanwhile, I take back what I said earlier: the emptiness of "and then a miracle occurred!" is not the thing that pushes me away from faith more than anything else. What really does is asshole statements like this one, which seem to come up in every single thread about religion:
atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done
For "have", try "need". Ethics and faith are not synonymous, thank you very much.
posted by ook at 6:17 PM on January 5, 2009
The other really interesting thing about Sarah Miles, IMO, is her role in the death of David Whiting. Whiting was her manager/lover, and during the making of The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing, she dumps Whiting and starts fucking Burt Reynolds. At some point during these events there's a confrontation between Reynolds and Whiting, and Whiting ends up dead.
Death at Gila Bend
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:20 PM on January 5, 2009
Death at Gila Bend
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:20 PM on January 5, 2009
Um, Peter, that's Sarah Miles the actress, not Sara Miles the ex-atheist writer.
posted by nicwolff at 8:11 PM on January 5, 2009
posted by nicwolff at 8:11 PM on January 5, 2009
atheists don't have a mother ship to go to for instruction on exactly how good works are to be done, nor do the slackers have the prospect of eternal damnation to scare them into doing the right thing to keep up appearances.
Wait wait wait. I'm not an atheist, but I imagine that there are any number of sources that everyone draws upon when following their conscience. There are any number of charitable institutions, figures and mindsets that don't necessitate belief in a deity in order to work them. No one has a monopoly on good will for its own sake, last I checked.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:14 PM on January 5, 2009
Wait wait wait. I'm not an atheist, but I imagine that there are any number of sources that everyone draws upon when following their conscience. There are any number of charitable institutions, figures and mindsets that don't necessitate belief in a deity in order to work them. No one has a monopoly on good will for its own sake, last I checked.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:14 PM on January 5, 2009
Faith is great. Religion inevitably leads to disaster.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:53 PM on January 5, 2009
posted by five fresh fish at 9:53 PM on January 5, 2009
Further, there is no conflict between faith and science. Science is "how," while faith is "why."
Religion and science conflict because science shines light on the "how," which often invalidates the historical religious explanations.
Religions should turn their attention back to the things science can not explain, ie. about the all-powerful not-of-this-universe being that instantiated this universe and its ability to judge our personal behaviours as a means of determining our state in the afterlife (heaven, reincarnation, whatever).
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 PM on January 5, 2009
Religion and science conflict because science shines light on the "how," which often invalidates the historical religious explanations.
Religions should turn their attention back to the things science can not explain, ie. about the all-powerful not-of-this-universe being that instantiated this universe and its ability to judge our personal behaviours as a means of determining our state in the afterlife (heaven, reincarnation, whatever).
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 PM on January 5, 2009
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posted by furtive at 11:14 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]