Teach, Bundanoon, teach!
July 18, 2009 4:18 PM Subscribe
This seems like a strange law. I suppose other types of beverages in plastic containers are still allowed. I wonder if they have a definition of what counts as bottled water, i.e. does sparkling water/soda water count, what if the water is sold with an essence of lemon. Does only 100 percent count?
I would like to see how the law is worded.
(It seems like this is more about increasing public awareness about the water plant case that is in the courts.)
posted by Hicksu at 4:46 PM on July 18, 2009
I would like to see how the law is worded.
(It seems like this is more about increasing public awareness about the water plant case that is in the courts.)
posted by Hicksu at 4:46 PM on July 18, 2009
I think it was Heinlein that used to say that the three signs of a civilization in decline were a loss of basic civility, poor road maintenance, and a lack of trust in the water supply.
(I sneer at that asshole every time I bump my way across the potholes to buy Evian. :) )
It strikes me that bottled water is a symptom, and banning the stuff isn't a likely cure. People shouldn't even want it. Water from the tap is something like a half-cent a gallon, but the market is willing to pay more for bottled water than for gasoline. Something's deeply out of whack there.
posted by Malor at 4:48 PM on July 18, 2009 [5 favorites]
(I sneer at that asshole every time I bump my way across the potholes to buy Evian. :) )
It strikes me that bottled water is a symptom, and banning the stuff isn't a likely cure. People shouldn't even want it. Water from the tap is something like a half-cent a gallon, but the market is willing to pay more for bottled water than for gasoline. Something's deeply out of whack there.
posted by Malor at 4:48 PM on July 18, 2009 [5 favorites]
There's a very good argument to be made for a ban on selling beverages of any kind whatsoever in disposable bottles. There's no good argument for singling out water, however. If I buy a Diet Coke or a Fanta in a plastic bottle and discard that, I'm doing exactly the same damage to the environment as I am if I buy a plastic bottle with water in it.
I simply don't understand the people who say "but you can get water from a drinking fountain." Of course I can. I can't, however, carry a fucking drinking fountain around with me.
posted by yoink at 4:50 PM on July 18, 2009 [9 favorites]
I simply don't understand the people who say "but you can get water from a drinking fountain." Of course I can. I can't, however, carry a fucking drinking fountain around with me.
posted by yoink at 4:50 PM on July 18, 2009 [9 favorites]
...the market is willing to pay more for bottled water than for gasoline.
Puts a new spin on the old classic blues line:
asked my baby for a drink of water
and she gave me gasoline
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:51 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Puts a new spin on the old classic blues line:
asked my baby for a drink of water
and she gave me gasoline
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:51 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
People shouldn't even want it. Water from the tap is something like a half-cent a gallon, but the market is willing to pay more for bottled water than for gasoline.
This, right here, is the argument that seems to me to (in most cases) completely miss the point. On the (rare) occasions when I have bought bottled water it is not because I suspect that there is anything wrong with the quality of the municipal water supply, it is solely because I want a portable drink, don't happen to have left home with a water bottle (or have the means to fill one) and don't want to buy a flavored sugar-water drink. The cost of the water (like the cost of a Coke) doesn't reflect the inherent value of the ingredients, it reflects the costs of packaging, distribution, refrigeration, advertising, etc. etc. etc.
posted by yoink at 4:54 PM on July 18, 2009 [9 favorites]
This, right here, is the argument that seems to me to (in most cases) completely miss the point. On the (rare) occasions when I have bought bottled water it is not because I suspect that there is anything wrong with the quality of the municipal water supply, it is solely because I want a portable drink, don't happen to have left home with a water bottle (or have the means to fill one) and don't want to buy a flavored sugar-water drink. The cost of the water (like the cost of a Coke) doesn't reflect the inherent value of the ingredients, it reflects the costs of packaging, distribution, refrigeration, advertising, etc. etc. etc.
posted by yoink at 4:54 PM on July 18, 2009 [9 favorites]
I simply don't understand the people who say "but you can get water from a drinking fountain." Of course I can. I can't, however, carry a fucking drinking fountain around with me.
This, right here, is the argument that seems to me to (in most cases) completely miss the point. On the (rare) occasions when I have bought bottled water it is not because I suspect that there is anything wrong with the quality of the municipal water supply, it is solely because I want a portable drink, don't happen to have left home with a water bottle (or have the means to fill one) and don't want to buy a flavored sugar-water drink. The cost of the water (like the cost of a Coke) doesn't reflect the inherent value of the ingredients, it reflects the costs of packaging, distribution, refrigeration, advertising, etc. etc. etc.
Good God, please RTMFA before you keep yappin:
To prevent lost profit in the town's businesses that sell bottled water, Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price. Residents will be able to fill the bottles for free at public water fountains, or pay a small fee to fill them with filtered water kept in the stores.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 4:55 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
This, right here, is the argument that seems to me to (in most cases) completely miss the point. On the (rare) occasions when I have bought bottled water it is not because I suspect that there is anything wrong with the quality of the municipal water supply, it is solely because I want a portable drink, don't happen to have left home with a water bottle (or have the means to fill one) and don't want to buy a flavored sugar-water drink. The cost of the water (like the cost of a Coke) doesn't reflect the inherent value of the ingredients, it reflects the costs of packaging, distribution, refrigeration, advertising, etc. etc. etc.
Good God, please RTMFA before you keep yappin:
To prevent lost profit in the town's businesses that sell bottled water, Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price. Residents will be able to fill the bottles for free at public water fountains, or pay a small fee to fill them with filtered water kept in the stores.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 4:55 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
And now....the kidney stone epedemic begins!
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:58 PM on July 18, 2009
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:58 PM on July 18, 2009
Good God, please RTMFA before you keep yappin:
And please read people's posts properly before posting a rude and ill-considered reply. I was replying to Malor's statement--not to the MFA.
posted by yoink at 4:58 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
And please read people's posts properly before posting a rude and ill-considered reply. I was replying to Malor's statement--not to the MFA.
posted by yoink at 4:58 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
I can't, however, carry a fucking drinking fountain around with me.
But you can carry a reusable glass bottle.
The argument against water specifically in disposable bottles, while environmental, is environmental from a two-pronged standpoint: you can't get pop from the tap. Bottled water discourages use of public water supplies, which in the first world are usually better quality than bottled water most of the time anyway but suffer in the public eye from lack of a pricetag.
In short, pop is just an environmentally unfriendly product we'd rather see less of; bottled water is an environmentally unfriendly product that replaces an environmentally friendly (and essentially free) alternative.
posted by mightygodking at 5:00 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
But you can carry a reusable glass bottle.
The argument against water specifically in disposable bottles, while environmental, is environmental from a two-pronged standpoint: you can't get pop from the tap. Bottled water discourages use of public water supplies, which in the first world are usually better quality than bottled water most of the time anyway but suffer in the public eye from lack of a pricetag.
In short, pop is just an environmentally unfriendly product we'd rather see less of; bottled water is an environmentally unfriendly product that replaces an environmentally friendly (and essentially free) alternative.
posted by mightygodking at 5:00 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Speaking of this:
Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price.
This doesn't seem all that different then just selling the bottles with the water already inside.
posted by Hicksu at 5:01 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price.
This doesn't seem all that different then just selling the bottles with the water already inside.
posted by Hicksu at 5:01 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
From the second link:
Bundanoon's battle against the bottle has been brewing for years, ever since a Sydney-based beverage company announced plans to build a water extraction plant in the town. Residents were furious over the prospect of an outsider taking their water, trucking it up to Sydney for processing and then selling it back to them.
Emphasis mine. That's I think the main reason for the ban. Water is a huge deal in little towns, when rain is often rare enough to be mythological. Basically the ban is a ban on needlessly processing something that is free to begin with. Very different from banning any bottled drink.
posted by Jilder at 5:03 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bundanoon's battle against the bottle has been brewing for years, ever since a Sydney-based beverage company announced plans to build a water extraction plant in the town. Residents were furious over the prospect of an outsider taking their water, trucking it up to Sydney for processing and then selling it back to them.
Emphasis mine. That's I think the main reason for the ban. Water is a huge deal in little towns, when rain is often rare enough to be mythological. Basically the ban is a ban on needlessly processing something that is free to begin with. Very different from banning any bottled drink.
posted by Jilder at 5:03 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
As for the statement Mr. Asshole quotes:
To prevent lost profit in the town's businesses that sell bottled water, Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price. Residents will be able to fill the bottles for free at public water fountains, or pay a small fee to fill them with filtered water kept in the stores.
A) If the bottles are reusable, and are, in fact, reused, that won't "prevent lost profit." I don't actually care about that, however, because--as I already pointed out--I think there's a good case to be made for banning disposable bottles.
B) This still leaves unaddressed the problem presented by Coke et al. (And a lot of people who currently drink water will probably switch to those products).
posted by yoink at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2009
To prevent lost profit in the town's businesses that sell bottled water, Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price. Residents will be able to fill the bottles for free at public water fountains, or pay a small fee to fill them with filtered water kept in the stores.
A) If the bottles are reusable, and are, in fact, reused, that won't "prevent lost profit." I don't actually care about that, however, because--as I already pointed out--I think there's a good case to be made for banning disposable bottles.
B) This still leaves unaddressed the problem presented by Coke et al. (And a lot of people who currently drink water will probably switch to those products).
posted by yoink at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2009
And please read people's posts properly before posting a rude and ill-considered reply. I was replying to Malor's statement--not to the MFA.
You're right; I'm sorry.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2009 [7 favorites]
You're right; I'm sorry.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2009 [7 favorites]
Now what will the boy bower birds use to attract females?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:05 PM on July 18, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:05 PM on July 18, 2009 [6 favorites]
Hmm, does Australia or other countries not have a system like Der Grüne Punkt? It seems like that's a much better way of dealing with plastic bottle waste. Up the costs for recycling the bottles, pass it onto consumers, and let the externalities price away their bad behavior. Even without such a system, I know in some less economically developed countries you can buy cola in a plastic bag for about a third the price of buying it in a bottle due to high bottle rebates.
However, this doesn't deal with the fact that the town is just mightily pissed with the company trying to take their water.
posted by Sova at 5:08 PM on July 18, 2009
However, this doesn't deal with the fact that the town is just mightily pissed with the company trying to take their water.
posted by Sova at 5:08 PM on July 18, 2009
>>Kingston suggested they instead sell reusable bottles for about the same price.
>This doesn't seem all that different then just selling the bottles with the water already inside.
Bottles full of air are lighter than bottles full of water. The problem with bottled water isn't just the bottles, but also the energy turned into pollution by transport.
posted by morganw at 5:11 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
>This doesn't seem all that different then just selling the bottles with the water already inside.
Bottles full of air are lighter than bottles full of water. The problem with bottled water isn't just the bottles, but also the energy turned into pollution by transport.
posted by morganw at 5:11 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
The world's biggest anti-nuclear activist sellout and Australia's bully pulpit version of Bono - Peter Garrett - has got his big beak in this.
Another thing I read but we might want to get some Eastern States Australians to confirm: Bundanoon is full of weekend retreats, hobby farms, and retirees of the "chattering class." I'd love to do a full audit on these squawkers' lifestyles and determine just how much they really care about the environment.
I suspect lazy feel-good tokenism. Other possible motivational factors mentioned above were quite interesting, too.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:18 PM on July 18, 2009
Another thing I read but we might want to get some Eastern States Australians to confirm: Bundanoon is full of weekend retreats, hobby farms, and retirees of the "chattering class." I'd love to do a full audit on these squawkers' lifestyles and determine just how much they really care about the environment.
I suspect lazy feel-good tokenism. Other possible motivational factors mentioned above were quite interesting, too.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:18 PM on July 18, 2009
Why is this even news? Because it is possibly the first town in the world to ban bottled water and because bottled water is a symbol of ecological waste in an era when that is a big topic for most people.
It looks more like a political move more than anything else. They are trying to keep the bottled water company from coming in and taking a lot of their water, and the company is using the court system to fight them, probably with much higher priced lawyers than the small town can afford.
So the town played the only other card they had--they are banning the company's product. The company may still win in court but at least the town is putting up a good fight.
posted by eye of newt at 5:24 PM on July 18, 2009
It looks more like a political move more than anything else. They are trying to keep the bottled water company from coming in and taking a lot of their water, and the company is using the court system to fight them, probably with much higher priced lawyers than the small town can afford.
So the town played the only other card they had--they are banning the company's product. The company may still win in court but at least the town is putting up a good fight.
posted by eye of newt at 5:24 PM on July 18, 2009
I support this. With the money they save on buying boutique water they can purchase much more beer and Jack Daniels & Cokes, which both come in aluminium cans that can be more readily recycled.
posted by Ritchie at 5:42 PM on July 18, 2009
posted by Ritchie at 5:42 PM on July 18, 2009
Hmm, does Australia or other countries not have a system like Der Grüne Punkt? It seems like that's a much better way of dealing with plastic bottle waste. Up the costs for recycling the bottles, pass it onto consumers, and let the externalities price away their bad behavior. Even without such a system, I know in some less economically developed countries you can buy cola in a plastic bag for about a third the price of buying it in a bottle due to high bottle rebates.
However, this doesn't deal with the fact that the town is just mightily pissed with the company trying to take their water.
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery, I suspect it may have something to do with being a sensible, forward thinking idea.
posted by mattoxic at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
However, this doesn't deal with the fact that the town is just mightily pissed with the company trying to take their water.
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery, I suspect it may have something to do with being a sensible, forward thinking idea.
posted by mattoxic at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
The biggest problem, going forward, with bottled water is twofold:
1. It's horribly redundant. The infrastructure already exists to deliver clean,safe water to your house- FOR CHEAP. The municipality needs the support of the community to cover the costs of maintaining that infrastructure. If people lose faith in the local supply, they are unlikely to support bond issues and maintenance costs.
2. That can lead to corporate interests stepping in and buying up groundwater and distribution rights. Then you have succeeded in commoditizing a basic human right - clean and safe drinking water.
This is happening. I recommend watching the documentary Thirst.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
1. It's horribly redundant. The infrastructure already exists to deliver clean,safe water to your house- FOR CHEAP. The municipality needs the support of the community to cover the costs of maintaining that infrastructure. If people lose faith in the local supply, they are unlikely to support bond issues and maintenance costs.
2. That can lead to corporate interests stepping in and buying up groundwater and distribution rights. Then you have succeeded in commoditizing a basic human right - clean and safe drinking water.
This is happening. I recommend watching the documentary Thirst.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2009 [2 favorites]
The biggest problem, going forward, with bottled water is twofold:
1. It's horribly redundant. The infrastructure already exists to deliver clean,safe water to your house- FOR CHEAP. The municipality needs the support of the community to cover the costs of maintaining that infrastructure. If people lose faith in the local supply, they are unlikely to support bond issues and maintenance costs.
I used to live in Scotland, we had a fantastic water supply pretty much the same quality you'd get in mineral water bottles. I'd buy a bottle of water if It was warm and wasn't near a water source.
I now live in France and the water quality here is awful, limescale covers everything and I wouldn't even consider drinking what comes out of my tap. Bottled water here is pretty huge because of that. I've noticed a vast difference in the quality of the water in any region depending on where it is.
posted by MrCynical at 7:33 PM on July 18, 2009
1. It's horribly redundant. The infrastructure already exists to deliver clean,safe water to your house- FOR CHEAP. The municipality needs the support of the community to cover the costs of maintaining that infrastructure. If people lose faith in the local supply, they are unlikely to support bond issues and maintenance costs.
I used to live in Scotland, we had a fantastic water supply pretty much the same quality you'd get in mineral water bottles. I'd buy a bottle of water if It was warm and wasn't near a water source.
I now live in France and the water quality here is awful, limescale covers everything and I wouldn't even consider drinking what comes out of my tap. Bottled water here is pretty huge because of that. I've noticed a vast difference in the quality of the water in any region depending on where it is.
posted by MrCynical at 7:33 PM on July 18, 2009
I now live in France and the water quality here is awful, limescale covers everything and I wouldn't even consider drinking what comes out of my tap. Bottled water here is pretty huge because of that. I've noticed a vast difference in the quality of the water in any region depending on where it is.
I understand that; I've lived places where the tap water was either super hard, super soft, and/or not-great-tasting.
But that's different than not clean and not safe.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:50 PM on July 18, 2009
I understand that; I've lived places where the tap water was either super hard, super soft, and/or not-great-tasting.
But that's different than not clean and not safe.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:50 PM on July 18, 2009
They're banned in Toronto city buildings as well. For instance, they're not allowed to be sold at City Hall.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2009
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2009
I don't know which outrage hat to wear! You've got authoritarian government on one side and spoiled consumers on the other.
We should do a better job of taxing things in proportion to their external costs. In the US that job would probably start with gasoline and make it to plastic bottles pretty quickly.
posted by Bokononist at 8:13 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
We should do a better job of taxing things in proportion to their external costs. In the US that job would probably start with gasoline and make it to plastic bottles pretty quickly.
posted by Bokononist at 8:13 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bottles full of air are lighter than bottles full of water. The problem with bottled water isn't just the bottles, but also the energy turned into pollution by transport.
Yes -- and first, the new plastic bottles are shipped to (for example) Fiji, which are then shipped back full, finally to be (in most cases) discarded by the user.
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery, I suspect it may have something to do with being a sensible, forward thinking idea.
And here in the US, the only states with bottle refunds are Maine, Hawaii, California, and now, Michigan. Because of the payout, those places have much less plastic trash accumulating along the roadsides, since scavengers make some extra cash collecting these empties.
posted by Rash at 8:15 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yes -- and first, the new plastic bottles are shipped to (for example) Fiji, which are then shipped back full, finally to be (in most cases) discarded by the user.
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery, I suspect it may have something to do with being a sensible, forward thinking idea.
And here in the US, the only states with bottle refunds are Maine, Hawaii, California, and now, Michigan. Because of the payout, those places have much less plastic trash accumulating along the roadsides, since scavengers make some extra cash collecting these empties.
posted by Rash at 8:15 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
In California in the late 70s or early 80s, the deposit on glass bottles was ten cents. It was pretty darn lucrative to collect them, and many youth groups did precisely that. And you hardly ever saw broken glass on the road. (I'd guess 10 cents then would be about the same as 20 cents now.)
For some reason, they dropped the deposit to 5 cents, and so people focused much less intensely on collecting them, and more trash piled up. I never did find out why they did that.
posted by Malor at 8:23 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
For some reason, they dropped the deposit to 5 cents, and so people focused much less intensely on collecting them, and more trash piled up. I never did find out why they did that.
posted by Malor at 8:23 PM on July 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
I now live in France and the water quality here is awful, limescale covers everything
Reverse Osmosis filtered water pretty much negates any regional water difference. Although the environmental impact of RO vs bottled water is unclear: the 1-time cost of creating the filter, the annual filter replacements, the waste water (2 gallons of waste for 1 gallon of filtered) and for some units electricity. Still, since its point source it must trump bottled water which has to be transported.
I'm not big on bottled water but filtered water is really important.
posted by stbalbach at 8:33 PM on July 18, 2009
Reverse Osmosis filtered water pretty much negates any regional water difference. Although the environmental impact of RO vs bottled water is unclear: the 1-time cost of creating the filter, the annual filter replacements, the waste water (2 gallons of waste for 1 gallon of filtered) and for some units electricity. Still, since its point source it must trump bottled water which has to be transported.
I'm not big on bottled water but filtered water is really important.
posted by stbalbach at 8:33 PM on July 18, 2009
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery, I suspect it may have something to do with being a sensible, forward thinking idea.
Troll! :)
West Oz had the scheme in my youth. Can't remember when or why it was stopped.
Also what Malor said. The bounty was relatively big. "Bottle drives" were common fund raisers for junior sporting clubs. I have fantastic family memories doing such a thing for 4-5 days for my swimming club, driving around the neighbourhood, asking for bottles.
One lovely man – a man of the cloth FWIW, a Catholic Deacon – gave us 72 bottles. I’ll never forget my excitement over that particular haul. Ka-CHING!
The starter motor on dad's car shat itself as a result of 5 days of starting the car every 100 meters. It cost more to fix than the money we raised. Ha! Poor bastard.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:01 PM on July 18, 2009
Troll! :)
West Oz had the scheme in my youth. Can't remember when or why it was stopped.
Also what Malor said. The bounty was relatively big. "Bottle drives" were common fund raisers for junior sporting clubs. I have fantastic family memories doing such a thing for 4-5 days for my swimming club, driving around the neighbourhood, asking for bottles.
One lovely man – a man of the cloth FWIW, a Catholic Deacon – gave us 72 bottles. I’ll never forget my excitement over that particular haul. Ka-CHING!
The starter motor on dad's car shat itself as a result of 5 days of starting the car every 100 meters. It cost more to fix than the money we raised. Ha! Poor bastard.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:01 PM on July 18, 2009
I still fondly remember buying the old green glass bottles of Coke when I was in high school. I would loyally keep the bottles as much as possible, realizing that, due to the deposits involved, every so many bottles of something I drank too much of anyway, I got a FREE bottle!
There are times I curse the advent of the plastics era.
(embarrassedly looks away from the netbook he is posting from...)
posted by Samizdata at 9:08 PM on July 18, 2009
There are times I curse the advent of the plastics era.
(embarrassedly looks away from the netbook he is posting from...)
posted by Samizdata at 9:08 PM on July 18, 2009
I know that bottled water is evil and they probably should get rid of it, but christ I will be sad when Smartwater is gone.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 9:15 PM on July 18, 2009
posted by The Devil Tesla at 9:15 PM on July 18, 2009
There's no good argument for singling out water, however. If I buy a Diet Coke or a Fanta in a plastic bottle and discard that, I'm doing exactly the same damage to the environment as I am if I buy a plastic bottle with water in it.
tl;dr; Not exactly the same damage; the sugar water will be made with local water, while the Fiji water consumed some umpteen litres of oil and hundreds of litres of water in its manufacture and shipment. A bottle of local water plus some sugar is relatively cheap by comparison, I suspect.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:26 PM on July 18, 2009
tl;dr; Not exactly the same damage; the sugar water will be made with local water, while the Fiji water consumed some umpteen litres of oil and hundreds of litres of water in its manufacture and shipment. A bottle of local water plus some sugar is relatively cheap by comparison, I suspect.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:26 PM on July 18, 2009
South Australia is the only state that has a bottle refund policy- they have had it for years and works well by all accounts- why the other states don't introduce it is a mystery...
Because all the soft-drink manufacturers have been lobbying hard against it. SA has the highest rates of recycling in Australia, but the people who create the bottles don't want to have to deal with it. I'd love to see the SA program made national.
It's a bit funny to see people above carrying on about "authoritarian governments" and "they should have just taxed it" - we're talking about a small country town here. They held a town-hall meeting to make the decision on the ban, with 400 attending. 2 people voted against it - one guy who was worried about everyone getting diabetes because everyone would just drink softdrink instead, and one guy representing the bottled water company.
If everyone agrees you just don't want something around, why waste time with lengthy public education campaigns, and finding a way to increase local taxes on a product available worldwide? Just ban the stupid product and move on to something more important.
posted by harriet vane at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2009 [4 favorites]
Because all the soft-drink manufacturers have been lobbying hard against it. SA has the highest rates of recycling in Australia, but the people who create the bottles don't want to have to deal with it. I'd love to see the SA program made national.
It's a bit funny to see people above carrying on about "authoritarian governments" and "they should have just taxed it" - we're talking about a small country town here. They held a town-hall meeting to make the decision on the ban, with 400 attending. 2 people voted against it - one guy who was worried about everyone getting diabetes because everyone would just drink softdrink instead, and one guy representing the bottled water company.
If everyone agrees you just don't want something around, why waste time with lengthy public education campaigns, and finding a way to increase local taxes on a product available worldwide? Just ban the stupid product and move on to something more important.
posted by harriet vane at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2009 [4 favorites]
Echo that I don't want to drink the water out of my tap. For one thing, it's orange due to heavy amounts of iron-eating bacteria (which defies all my attempts to shock chlorinate), and for another it tastes and smells awful. Since I can't afford to drill a new well (at $50/foot, the going rate here...and could be as deep as 300 feet), I do the best I can by buying large bottles for the cooler (reusable, but a heavy thick plastic that is probably equivalent to a hundred regular bottles).
posted by Kickstart70 at 10:10 PM on July 18, 2009
posted by Kickstart70 at 10:10 PM on July 18, 2009
Ban is probably the wrong word - it's not like the town council has gone all Footloose and decided to pass a law against bottled water; local businesses have just decided to band together and, with the support of locals, not sell the stuff. Big Brother is not involved, nothing to see here, move along, move along...
And, re: South Aust's deposit/recycling scheme - most (all?) Australian states used to have such a government-mandated scheme; SA just (wisely) never shut theirs down. It didn't last long once manufacturers started going to plastic bottles, sometime in the mid-late 70's (although there was some overlap). I remember well the public campaign by manufacturers pushing how pointless & inefficient glass recycling was, and how plastic recycling was even more inefficient and wasteful. By the late 70's / early 80's, all the glass bottle recycling depots had closed - I think the last one in Brisbane was the one attached to the XXXX brewery (which, by that time, was only accepting longnecks for washing/refilling). I remember getting 5c per glass bottle returned (10c for Coke bottles!) when I was at high school (which I finished in 1983).
posted by Pinback at 11:42 PM on July 18, 2009
And, re: South Aust's deposit/recycling scheme - most (all?) Australian states used to have such a government-mandated scheme; SA just (wisely) never shut theirs down. It didn't last long once manufacturers started going to plastic bottles, sometime in the mid-late 70's (although there was some overlap). I remember well the public campaign by manufacturers pushing how pointless & inefficient glass recycling was, and how plastic recycling was even more inefficient and wasteful. By the late 70's / early 80's, all the glass bottle recycling depots had closed - I think the last one in Brisbane was the one attached to the XXXX brewery (which, by that time, was only accepting longnecks for washing/refilling). I remember getting 5c per glass bottle returned (10c for Coke bottles!) when I was at high school (which I finished in 1983).
posted by Pinback at 11:42 PM on July 18, 2009
>>And here in the US, the only states with bottle refunds are Maine, Hawaii, California, and now, Michigan.
>Pretty sure we have this is Oregon.
Wikipedia claims California, Hawaii, Oregon, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts, Iowa, Michigan and New York
Not on that list? Rhode Island, my birthplace. They were debating a bottle bill 30 years ago, but I see that it took California 15 years to follow Oregon's lead. Looks like legislation still gets introduced though. Delaware's legislature voted to repeal their bill, but the Governor could still repeal it.
California has an odd system where the deposit and refund are independent and "for the first half of 2007, consumers enjoyed a refund rate higher than the deposit rate."
Re: draining aquifers to fill & export bottles: this looked imminent in the community next door to mine, but they organized & got my independent water co. to buy theirs. I moved away last year, but it looks like it worked out. That was some good tasting water, though of course it tasted better from the bathroom tap than the kitchen's.
posted by morganw at 1:38 AM on July 19, 2009
>Pretty sure we have this is Oregon.
Wikipedia claims California, Hawaii, Oregon, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts, Iowa, Michigan and New York
Not on that list? Rhode Island, my birthplace. They were debating a bottle bill 30 years ago, but I see that it took California 15 years to follow Oregon's lead. Looks like legislation still gets introduced though. Delaware's legislature voted to repeal their bill, but the Governor could still repeal it.
California has an odd system where the deposit and refund are independent and "for the first half of 2007, consumers enjoyed a refund rate higher than the deposit rate."
Re: draining aquifers to fill & export bottles: this looked imminent in the community next door to mine, but they organized & got my independent water co. to buy theirs. I moved away last year, but it looks like it worked out. That was some good tasting water, though of course it tasted better from the bathroom tap than the kitchen's.
posted by morganw at 1:38 AM on July 19, 2009
If everyone agrees you just don't want something around, why waste time with lengthy public education campaigns, and finding a way to increase local taxes on a product available worldwide? Just ban the stupid product and move on to something more important.
That is not how rights work.
Sorry.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:21 AM on July 19, 2009
That is not how rights work.
Sorry.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:21 AM on July 19, 2009
New York's bottle deposit covers carbonated beverages only. Beer and soda have deposits, but water, juice, and wine don't.
posted by oaf at 9:01 AM on July 19, 2009
posted by oaf at 9:01 AM on July 19, 2009
And you have a right to certain commercial products?
I think not.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:01 AM on July 19, 2009
I think not.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:01 AM on July 19, 2009
And here in the US, the only states with bottle refunds are Maine, Hawaii, California, and now, Michigan.
Not sure what "and now" means there: Michigan has had bottle returns as long as I've lived here, nearly a decade. Unless you mean expanding the categories of returnables (like including bottled water), which hadn't happened at the time that article was written and hasn't happened yet.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:39 AM on July 19, 2009
Not sure what "and now" means there: Michigan has had bottle returns as long as I've lived here, nearly a decade. Unless you mean expanding the categories of returnables (like including bottled water), which hadn't happened at the time that article was written and hasn't happened yet.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:39 AM on July 19, 2009
That is not how rights work.
Sorry.
Correct! But it is how democracy works.
posted by Jilder at 12:20 PM on July 19, 2009
Sorry.
Correct! But it is how democracy works.
posted by Jilder at 12:20 PM on July 19, 2009
Correct! But it is how democracy works.That is not how rights work.Sorry.
Democracy was completely in play here. The town decided to not support bottled water. Local democracy.
Not a whole lot different than towns that have organized to bar Wal*Mart, or strip clubs, or whatever businesses they do not wish to support. Only members of that community are affected, and it was a decision made through a democratic process.
The only people who might have a legitimate beef with this town's decision are citizens of that town. The rest of us can decide to not move there if we disagree with their city ordinances.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:43 PM on July 19, 2009
Oops. I mangled the indents et al. Looks like jilder was essentially saying the same as I.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:44 PM on July 19, 2009
posted by five fresh fish at 12:44 PM on July 19, 2009
Who owns the water? Government or Tribal Elders?
That's the only thing I care about and can't seem to find the answer to.
Plastic bottles are not the real issue here. At all. I promise you.
If Tribal Elders gave the ok, there's more to this story and it's amusing!
If the Government gave the ok.. Then wtf, huh?
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 2:01 PM on July 19, 2009
That's the only thing I care about and can't seem to find the answer to.
Plastic bottles are not the real issue here. At all. I promise you.
If Tribal Elders gave the ok, there's more to this story and it's amusing!
If the Government gave the ok.. Then wtf, huh?
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 2:01 PM on July 19, 2009
When it comes to bottled beverages, I split the difference.
I buy a bottle of something (usually PowerAde Zero; big bottle, no calories, and it looks like I'm drinking Windex), and then I keep the empty and fill it with water (a few times a day during the work week). I scrub the mouth of the bottle a couple times a week so it doesn't get stinky. I leave the bottle at work, so I don't even need to carry it home or back (that way I don't have to worry about remembering to bring it with me).
So I save money, I don't use as many bottles, and I'm drinking local water (as far as I can tell. The water comes from a delivery company, so it might not be. The sink water at work is awful, though).
When I want new non-water beverage, I buy a new one, but it's maybe twice a month at most. A year ago, I was buying a new drink almost every day. I waste a lot less money and a lot less plastic now.
But I hardly ever buy bottled water any more. I really like the big caps on the Voss bottles, but I have a hard time finding anywhere close to my work who has Voss. And convenience stores seem to only have the plastic ones, and not the glass.
I wish the Bundies well, and hope that this is the start of something big, and that someone comes up with a good, cool, fun way to revitalize the idea that tap water, fountain water, et cetera, are okay. Public water filters would be really awesome.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:01 PM on July 19, 2009
I buy a bottle of something (usually PowerAde Zero; big bottle, no calories, and it looks like I'm drinking Windex), and then I keep the empty and fill it with water (a few times a day during the work week). I scrub the mouth of the bottle a couple times a week so it doesn't get stinky. I leave the bottle at work, so I don't even need to carry it home or back (that way I don't have to worry about remembering to bring it with me).
So I save money, I don't use as many bottles, and I'm drinking local water (as far as I can tell. The water comes from a delivery company, so it might not be. The sink water at work is awful, though).
When I want new non-water beverage, I buy a new one, but it's maybe twice a month at most. A year ago, I was buying a new drink almost every day. I waste a lot less money and a lot less plastic now.
But I hardly ever buy bottled water any more. I really like the big caps on the Voss bottles, but I have a hard time finding anywhere close to my work who has Voss. And convenience stores seem to only have the plastic ones, and not the glass.
I wish the Bundies well, and hope that this is the start of something big, and that someone comes up with a good, cool, fun way to revitalize the idea that tap water, fountain water, et cetera, are okay. Public water filters would be really awesome.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:01 PM on July 19, 2009
It's not like a reverse-osmosis filtration system is *that* expensive for a business to install for its employees. Or on a grander scale, a water cooler; the bottles are pretty much infinitely recycleable and, again, the water is sourced locally.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:04 PM on July 19, 2009
posted by five fresh fish at 8:04 PM on July 19, 2009
Another thing I read but we might want to get some Eastern States Australians to confirm: Bundanoon is full of weekend retreats, hobby farms, and retirees of the "chattering class."
Sums the place up perfectly. Like nearby Bowral, Bundanoon is the kind of town that upper-middle-class Sydneysiders move to in order to live out their fantasies that they're actually in England & members of the landed gentry.
Conveniently, it's only a couple of hours drive in a Range Rover from Sydney - perfect for catching up on a bit of opera, because one would simply go batty on the farm without easy access to culture, dahling.
Aside from those kinds of pretentious twats, you can also find the usual kinds of meditation retreats & ye olde rustic arty-crafty antiquey devonshire tea & pottery joints to cater to daytrippers from Sydney - weekend drivers in search of some of that crisp country air, and perhaps a jar or two of 'homemade' preserves.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:35 PM on July 19, 2009
Sums the place up perfectly. Like nearby Bowral, Bundanoon is the kind of town that upper-middle-class Sydneysiders move to in order to live out their fantasies that they're actually in England & members of the landed gentry.
Conveniently, it's only a couple of hours drive in a Range Rover from Sydney - perfect for catching up on a bit of opera, because one would simply go batty on the farm without easy access to culture, dahling.
Aside from those kinds of pretentious twats, you can also find the usual kinds of meditation retreats & ye olde rustic arty-crafty antiquey devonshire tea & pottery joints to cater to daytrippers from Sydney - weekend drivers in search of some of that crisp country air, and perhaps a jar or two of 'homemade' preserves.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:35 PM on July 19, 2009
Further to the South Australian bottle recycling scheme, its worth noting that the scheme now also includes a refundable deposit (5 cents, IIRC) on plastic-treated milk cartons and plastic milk cartons. This means that I'll be able to cash in by recycling the tonne of Farmer's Union Iced Coffee cartons that are sure to pile up within weeks of my returning home.
posted by MarchHare at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2009
posted by MarchHare at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2009
Not a whole lot different than towns that have organized to bar Wal*Mart, or strip clubs, or whatever businesses they do not wish to support. Only members of that community are affected, and it was a decision made through a democratic process.
Exactly. Corporations don't have a right to sell us any particular product. Water is still freely available for all who are thirsty. This isn't a civil rights issue.
This town has no sway over anyone else's life, but they decided they couldn't be arsed supporting a product that does nothing for them and has better alternatives. End of story, except that a lot of people outside of their town thought it was a good idea.
I think Bundanoon is getting in the same type of water fountains that were installed at Manly Beach not too long ago. Vandal-resistant, wheelchair-friendly, with tall signs so you can find them easily and taps so you can fill your own reuseable bottle. You can see a better picture (and read a bizarrely formatted e-book) here.
posted by harriet vane at 3:27 AM on July 20, 2009
Exactly. Corporations don't have a right to sell us any particular product. Water is still freely available for all who are thirsty. This isn't a civil rights issue.
This town has no sway over anyone else's life, but they decided they couldn't be arsed supporting a product that does nothing for them and has better alternatives. End of story, except that a lot of people outside of their town thought it was a good idea.
I think Bundanoon is getting in the same type of water fountains that were installed at Manly Beach not too long ago. Vandal-resistant, wheelchair-friendly, with tall signs so you can find them easily and taps so you can fill your own reuseable bottle. You can see a better picture (and read a bizarrely formatted e-book) here.
posted by harriet vane at 3:27 AM on July 20, 2009
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posted by Captain Cardanthian! at 4:24 PM on July 18, 2009