These guys play rough
July 22, 2009 9:02 AM Subscribe
There's no way we get all this stuff and everything is done fair and square and everyone gets treated right. A Chinese employee of Foxconn, entrusted with fourteen (maybe sixteen) prototype iPhones misplaced one before they could be shipped; what followed was his detainment and torture at the hands of company police, and his eventual suicide. Shanghaiist has confirmed the story. Fake Steve weighs in.
Think Different.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:09 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:09 AM on July 22, 2009
There's no way we get all this stuff and everything is done fair and square and everyone gets treated right.
Bullshit. I know that's a satirical post but it's a justification I see all the time and it's still bullshit.
posted by muddgirl at 9:10 AM on July 22, 2009
Bullshit. I know that's a satirical post but it's a justification I see all the time and it's still bullshit.
posted by muddgirl at 9:10 AM on July 22, 2009
@amro: No, I didn't. I'm a goof. I meant to leave out the last link, and add this one instead. Mea culpa.
posted by littlerobothead at 9:11 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by littlerobothead at 9:11 AM on July 22, 2009
The story was reported on Digital Beat, with comments from Apple on Cnet (via), and 90+ other news outlets.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by filthy light thief at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2009
I don't think linking a satirical blog is really the best lead FPP here. Hopefully a mod will fix.
posted by delmoi at 9:15 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by delmoi at 9:15 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
The hidden costs of cheap stuff. As much as I enjoyed Fake Steve's rant, I wish it was the real Steve saying those things.
posted by tommasz at 9:17 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by tommasz at 9:17 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Poor guy.
I have to wonder if he jumped or was pushed.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:18 AM on July 22, 2009
I have to wonder if he jumped or was pushed.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:18 AM on July 22, 2009
I'm really thinking maybe I shouldn't have yelled at that Chinese guy so much
Is that really Steve Job's blog? Stay classy.
posted by Big_B at 9:20 AM on July 22, 2009
Is that really Steve Job's blog? Stay classy.
posted by Big_B at 9:20 AM on July 22, 2009
When the statement "Shanghaiist has confirmed the story" follows the sentence "A Chinese employee of Foxconn, entrusted with fourteen (maybe sixteen) prototype iPhones misplaced one before they could be shipped; what followed was his detainment and torture at the hands of company police, and his eventual suicide", it implies (to me at least) that all elements of that sentence were confirmed. I didn't see confirmation of the torture anywhere - which is not to say that I believe it didn't happen, I'd just like to know if any evidence has been presented (video, eyewitness testimony, etc.) the interrogation consisted of.
Having said that...
.
posted by brandman at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2009
Having said that...
.
posted by brandman at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2009
If you want cheap shoes, the price you pay is knowing that children are slaving away, making them.
If you want cheap oil, the price you pay is knowing that the military-industrial complex is killing people on the other side of the globe for it.
If you want cheap electronic gadgets, the price you pay is knowing that people toil away in Foxconn labor camps to make it.
This is all the end product of our consumerism and our focus on getting everything cheaper, and for punishing companies who didn't outsource by buying things from the companies who did. It's easy to demonize the companies here, but they follow profit the same way water flows downhill. It's the American consumer who created the landscape that makes this behavior profitable, and who must sacrifice 'cheap' if we want anything to change.
Apple doesn't have its iPhones built by Foxconn in China because they enjoy complex international business deals and working across a language barrier; they do it because otherwise, that $400 iPhone might cost $600, and lots of people wouldn't buy it and would instead buy something from a manufacturer who did play the race-to-the-bottom game.
I don't see this changing. We're addicted to cheap goods at any cost, and have found myriad ways to rationalize the brutality that must go on in other parts of the world in order to bring it to us.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2009 [69 favorites]
If you want cheap oil, the price you pay is knowing that the military-industrial complex is killing people on the other side of the globe for it.
If you want cheap electronic gadgets, the price you pay is knowing that people toil away in Foxconn labor camps to make it.
This is all the end product of our consumerism and our focus on getting everything cheaper, and for punishing companies who didn't outsource by buying things from the companies who did. It's easy to demonize the companies here, but they follow profit the same way water flows downhill. It's the American consumer who created the landscape that makes this behavior profitable, and who must sacrifice 'cheap' if we want anything to change.
Apple doesn't have its iPhones built by Foxconn in China because they enjoy complex international business deals and working across a language barrier; they do it because otherwise, that $400 iPhone might cost $600, and lots of people wouldn't buy it and would instead buy something from a manufacturer who did play the race-to-the-bottom game.
I don't see this changing. We're addicted to cheap goods at any cost, and have found myriad ways to rationalize the brutality that must go on in other parts of the world in order to bring it to us.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2009 [69 favorites]
The high cost of having your prototypes built in America might also pay for an additional level of security, that might be impossible to obtain while sending all your precious latest designs overseas as a first step. Of course, we can also notice that there appear to be plenty of people in those foreign destinations who take the security just as seriously. Then again, all the suicides and assassinations in the world might not generate as much assurance as having Bob's Blueprint Builders from the valley (imagining a startup funded by Woz) build your stuff instead.
posted by nervousfritz at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by nervousfritz at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2009
There's no way we get all this stuff and everything is done fair and square and everyone gets treated right.Bullshit. I know that's a satirical post but it's a justification I see all the time and it's still bullshit.
I don't think he's justifying it. I think he's grappling with his own indirect responsibility for the guy's death. That piece is a bit weird, because he sort of turns off the satire for a couple paragraphs to say "we, collectively, killed this guy because we feed the system of slave labor that keeps us comfortable."
posted by fatbird at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
I thought this bit of Fake Steve was one of those moments where the satirist just tells the truth, and possibly the purest moment on Fake Steve's illustrious career.
"What's more, you know it. Everyone knows it."
posted by mwhybark at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
"What's more, you know it. Everyone knows it."
posted by mwhybark at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
If you want cheap electronic gadgets, the price you pay is knowing that people toil away in Foxconn labor camps to make it.
Except iPhones aren't even cheap, and price certainly isn't the reason people buy them.
And the thing is, the factories that make those kind of devices don't really employ that much cheap labor. I doubt manufacturing them here or in countries like Japan would really have much impact on the price. The reason so many computer products are made in china really have nothing to do with the price of labor, but rather the fact that so much infrastructure has been put in place already, due to massive government support. It's just a coincidence that all this infrastructure was put in place in a totalitarian regime.
Also, remember price had nothing to do with the way this guy was treated, rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish.
posted by delmoi at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
Except iPhones aren't even cheap, and price certainly isn't the reason people buy them.
And the thing is, the factories that make those kind of devices don't really employ that much cheap labor. I doubt manufacturing them here or in countries like Japan would really have much impact on the price. The reason so many computer products are made in china really have nothing to do with the price of labor, but rather the fact that so much infrastructure has been put in place already, due to massive government support. It's just a coincidence that all this infrastructure was put in place in a totalitarian regime.
Also, remember price had nothing to do with the way this guy was treated, rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish.
posted by delmoi at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
Also, FWIW, Fake Steve's character has been changing possibly as a result of the Real Steve's recent liver transplant.
I doubt that the satirist (Daniel somebody? If only there was some sort of mechanisim which would enable me to look up his name easily!) has a character arc in mind, but the moment of introspection which focuses on the contradictions of being Fake Steve - of living in a consumer society - comes out of the satirist's visualization of post-op Fake Steve.
Thus the toadies exchanging glances and asking "Or what, when they put in a liver they take out your balls?"
I'm so glad FSJ is back!
posted by mwhybark at 9:33 AM on July 22, 2009
I doubt that the satirist (Daniel somebody? If only there was some sort of mechanisim which would enable me to look up his name easily!) has a character arc in mind, but the moment of introspection which focuses on the contradictions of being Fake Steve - of living in a consumer society - comes out of the satirist's visualization of post-op Fake Steve.
Thus the toadies exchanging glances and asking "Or what, when they put in a liver they take out your balls?"
I'm so glad FSJ is back!
posted by mwhybark at 9:33 AM on July 22, 2009
Just for a goddamn cell phone.
posted by Legomancer at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by Legomancer at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2009
fatbird: "...I think he's grappling with his own indirect responsiblilty..."
delmoi: "Also, remember price had nothing to do with the way this guy was treated, rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish."
Right. It's not Fake Steve's (or Real Steve's) indirect responsibility. It's his direct responsibility. But neither FSJ or actual SJ would ever, ever, EVER see that or accept that. So instead FSJ blames the consumer, the society. First-water characterization, simply brilliant.
posted by mwhybark at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2009
delmoi: "Also, remember price had nothing to do with the way this guy was treated, rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish."
Right. It's not Fake Steve's (or Real Steve's) indirect responsibility. It's his direct responsibility. But neither FSJ or actual SJ would ever, ever, EVER see that or accept that. So instead FSJ blames the consumer, the society. First-water characterization, simply brilliant.
posted by mwhybark at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2009
Because this guy's death is directly, irrefutably tied to the little rectangle of glass and plastic that I wear on my hip, not a result of cops overreacting when investigating a minor crime, the way that they sometimes do, in any number of different situations, all over the world. I'll have to devote precisely as long of a guilt trip to this as I did to Congolese coltan.
Also, it's a little past Fake Steve's "We Are The World" window of opportunity, and by "a little" I mean "way".
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:40 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, it's a little past Fake Steve's "We Are The World" window of opportunity, and by "a little" I mean "way".
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:40 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Except iPhones aren't even cheap, and price certainly isn't the reason people buy them.
Except that if cheap labor was not available, the iPhones would be even more expensive, and THAT price certainly would be the reason people wouldn't buy them.
posted by splice at 9:42 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Except that if cheap labor was not available, the iPhones would be even more expensive, and THAT price certainly would be the reason people wouldn't buy them.
posted by splice at 9:42 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's just a coincidence that all this infrastructure was put in place in a totalitarian regime.
Isn't that always the way.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:43 AM on July 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
Isn't that always the way.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:43 AM on July 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
And the thing is, the factories that make those kind of devices don't really employ that much cheap labor.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that. We enjoy a fabulous standard of living (and gadgetry) on the backs of cheap foreign labour.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:47 AM on July 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
Yeah, keep telling yourself that. We enjoy a fabulous standard of living (and gadgetry) on the backs of cheap foreign labour.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:47 AM on July 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
It's not Fake Steve's (or Real Steve's) indirect responsibility. It's his direct responsibility.
Remind me, if you could, where you got this information from? Aside from the FSJ post, which is, you know, satire?
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:49 AM on July 22, 2009
Remind me, if you could, where you got this information from? Aside from the FSJ post, which is, you know, satire?
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:49 AM on July 22, 2009
Comment on the blog from Hunter S. Thompson:
HunterSThompson 35 minutes ago
So, we are all connected by a moral thread, where every action has moral consequences. As Rob keeps saying out here, "The spider's web of being. Touch one part and the whole thing vibrates."
Well, maybe so...But guilt by association is a favorite tool of The Swine, particularly those in my game.
Just the other day, Cronkhite rolls in here, blubbering about how journalism has gone to hell. I said, "Calm down, you old news dog. Let it go. It's Chinatown. OK? It's Chinatown." I took responsibility for the journalism. After all, I am a professional. It's not mine, but the man needed help.
So for jobso, it's Chinatown, only the Big One with a Giant Wall.
posted by nosila at 9:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
HunterSThompson 35 minutes ago
So, we are all connected by a moral thread, where every action has moral consequences. As Rob keeps saying out here, "The spider's web of being. Touch one part and the whole thing vibrates."
Well, maybe so...But guilt by association is a favorite tool of The Swine, particularly those in my game.
Just the other day, Cronkhite rolls in here, blubbering about how journalism has gone to hell. I said, "Calm down, you old news dog. Let it go. It's Chinatown. OK? It's Chinatown." I took responsibility for the journalism. After all, I am a professional. It's not mine, but the man needed help.
So for jobso, it's Chinatown, only the Big One with a Giant Wall.
posted by nosila at 9:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Is it true that Blackwater provides security for Foxconn?
posted by toppermost at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by toppermost at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2009
♪ Oohh, come on, they're turning kids into slaves
They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers
But what's the real cost, 'cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper
Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them?
What are your overheads? ♫
posted by filthy light thief at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers
But what's the real cost, 'cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper
Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them?
What are your overheads? ♫
posted by filthy light thief at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
YES...all you shopping at Wal-Mart
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:59 AM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:59 AM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
Satire is amusing for its voices, but profound for its silences.
posted by voltairemodern at 10:07 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by voltairemodern at 10:07 AM on July 22, 2009
Right. It's not Fake Steve's (or Real Steve's) indirect responsibility. It's his direct responsibility. But neither FSJ or actual SJ would ever, ever, EVER see that or accept that.
Wow, way to construe something based on no evidence or details whatsoever.
Meanwhile, FSJ is so real-sounding it's scary. Damn he's good.
posted by fungible at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow, way to construe something based on no evidence or details whatsoever.
Meanwhile, FSJ is so real-sounding it's scary. Damn he's good.
posted by fungible at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
I guess the alternative is building your own mp3 player.
posted by hellojed at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by hellojed at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2009
Picking out American addition to cheap gadgets as the driving force behind human rights abuses in China seems a bit myopic. I'm pretty sure those abuses have more to do with China than the US.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:19 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:19 AM on July 22, 2009
YES...all you shopping at Wal-Mart
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
That's exactly my point. This sort of exploitation has nothing to do with making cheaper products, because relatively inexpensive products can be made without exploiting employees, either economically or physically. Focusing on those who can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-mart shifts "the blame" away from the rest of us, who buy products made in the same damn factories with a greater mark-up state-side. This is a problem that capitalism can't solve.
posted by muddgirl at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
That's exactly my point. This sort of exploitation has nothing to do with making cheaper products, because relatively inexpensive products can be made without exploiting employees, either economically or physically. Focusing on those who can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-mart shifts "the blame" away from the rest of us, who buy products made in the same damn factories with a greater mark-up state-side. This is a problem that capitalism can't solve.
posted by muddgirl at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
Some facts about Foxconn.
From the above link:
From the above link:
Although workers receive free housing and food, have medical benefits (the company pays 80% of expenses), and have 3 months of maternity leave, workers at the factory live in dormitories so crowded and noisy they cannot sleep properly, are forbidden from cooking or having visitors, are isolated because of the barren world outside the factory gates, and are not paid for all of their wages.posted by yoink at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Nevermind that the real story is that a (Chinese) company mistreated one its workers to the point of killing him — the implied story that Apple and Steve Jobs personally instructed Foxconn to drive this individual to death is much juicier.
It's just not good business for corporate media to point out that companies mistreat labor. Way to go with another hard-hitting exposé, MSM!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's just not good business for corporate media to point out that companies mistreat labor. Way to go with another hard-hitting exposé, MSM!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Go to Ambercrombie or TNA or some other stupid ass shop 14 year old girls buy $100 t-shirts. The clothes are all made in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, China, etc, etc. People don't give a fuck where stuff gets made.
posted by chunking express at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by chunking express at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
Wal-Mart don't sell Apple products?
And let's not turn a story about the human toll of consumerism into a hurf durf culture war against the stereotyped MacBook hipsters/douchebags.
says the MacBook-owning hipster douchebag
posted by acb at 10:28 AM on July 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
Wal-Mart don't sell Apple products?
And let's not turn a story about the human toll of consumerism into a hurf durf culture war against the stereotyped MacBook hipsters/douchebags.
says the MacBook-owning hipster douchebag
posted by acb at 10:28 AM on July 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
There's some truly awesome 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. Really beautiful to behold.
Hopefully this will lead to Apple investigating the goings-on at Foxcomm, particularly into the matter of whether he was actually pushed. If he was not, though, I'm personally wary of throwing blame around - particularly "direct responsibility" and the like - when suicide was his own decision. Jobs got pissed at a contractor for losing highly valuable IP? Makes sense. That Contractor then takes it out on the kid "responsible?" Also highly predictable. The employee then taking his life over the incident? That's the unpredictable part here, and if it were under work-circumstances that weren't related to Apple, we wouldn't even be considering it as a rational response to the situation, because it's not.
All of that is not to say that 1) we know for sure that the employee wasn't pushed, or 2) that we shouldn't be paying more attention to the realities of The U.S. (and Canada and Europe and Australia and Japan) putting the rest of the world into indentured servitude so that we may continue to live unsustainable lifestyles. I hope Apple looks into it (a "suicide note" via text message seems ultra-sketchy and easy-to-fake, to me) and I hope it does give Jobs, and all of us, pause, but saying that he is directly responsible for an irrational action made by another doesn't sit well with me.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2009
Hopefully this will lead to Apple investigating the goings-on at Foxcomm, particularly into the matter of whether he was actually pushed. If he was not, though, I'm personally wary of throwing blame around - particularly "direct responsibility" and the like - when suicide was his own decision. Jobs got pissed at a contractor for losing highly valuable IP? Makes sense. That Contractor then takes it out on the kid "responsible?" Also highly predictable. The employee then taking his life over the incident? That's the unpredictable part here, and if it were under work-circumstances that weren't related to Apple, we wouldn't even be considering it as a rational response to the situation, because it's not.
All of that is not to say that 1) we know for sure that the employee wasn't pushed, or 2) that we shouldn't be paying more attention to the realities of The U.S. (and Canada and Europe and Australia and Japan) putting the rest of the world into indentured servitude so that we may continue to live unsustainable lifestyles. I hope Apple looks into it (a "suicide note" via text message seems ultra-sketchy and easy-to-fake, to me) and I hope it does give Jobs, and all of us, pause, but saying that he is directly responsible for an irrational action made by another doesn't sit well with me.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2009
"Congratulations to every one of us damn Americans. We killed another human being with our consumerism."
No. We didn't. But enjoy stewing in your guilt and self-loathing.
China is a big grown up country, with a government that doesn't mind forcing it's way on it's people. If they cared about fair labor practices, they would have them. But I'm sure they're happy to see you think the Americans are to blame.
We get our stuff cheaply by using exploited labor in other countries. No one disputes that. But those labor practices were bad (or worse) before we started buying sneakers and Walkmans.
We have plenty of things we *can* do something about to feel guilty over. No need to make ever injustice in China our fault.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
No. We didn't. But enjoy stewing in your guilt and self-loathing.
China is a big grown up country, with a government that doesn't mind forcing it's way on it's people. If they cared about fair labor practices, they would have them. But I'm sure they're happy to see you think the Americans are to blame.
We get our stuff cheaply by using exploited labor in other countries. No one disputes that. But those labor practices were bad (or worse) before we started buying sneakers and Walkmans.
We have plenty of things we *can* do something about to feel guilty over. No need to make ever injustice in China our fault.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
The reality is that the "liberal" elite (near synonym for "Apple consumers"?) are indeed people likely to care about this death/suicide/killing.
This likelihood of caring is why high-profile exposures the toxicity of Apple product manufacturing have been somewhat successful. Such campaigns highlighting such elitist hypocrisies would not work unless they targeted emotionally susceptible green yuppie types who are more likely to change their behavior and/or petition their favorite manufacturers than your average Wal-Marter.
/overreaching generalizations
Out of cynical curiosity, where do you do your electronics shopping?
posted by mistersquid at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
The reality is that the "liberal" elite (near synonym for "Apple consumers"?) are indeed people likely to care about this death/suicide/killing.
This likelihood of caring is why high-profile exposures the toxicity of Apple product manufacturing have been somewhat successful. Such campaigns highlighting such elitist hypocrisies would not work unless they targeted emotionally susceptible green yuppie types who are more likely to change their behavior and/or petition their favorite manufacturers than your average Wal-Marter.
/overreaching generalizations
Out of cynical curiosity, where do you do your electronics shopping?
posted by mistersquid at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
If you want cheap electronic gadgets, the price you pay is knowing that people toil away in Foxconn labor camps to make it.
I don't know, it doesn't look so bad to me.
Related:
Supplier Responsibility at Apple
2009 Progress Report
Chinese factory conditions tarnish Apple's image
Basically, there are ongoing issues, but Apple has been much more aggressive about auditing and addressing them since the bad publicity they got in 2006.
posted by designbot at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2009
I don't know, it doesn't look so bad to me.
Related:
Supplier Responsibility at Apple
2009 Progress Report
Chinese factory conditions tarnish Apple's image
Basically, there are ongoing issues, but Apple has been much more aggressive about auditing and addressing them since the bad publicity they got in 2006.
posted by designbot at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2009
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
I can confirm this much: My Apple product actually came with a plane ticket to China, where a Foxconn company van drove myself and several others to the ledge where this guy was standing. I cannot say whether or not we each took turns repeatedly pushing his dead body off the ledge.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
I can confirm this much: My Apple product actually came with a plane ticket to China, where a Foxconn company van drove myself and several others to the ledge where this guy was standing. I cannot say whether or not we each took turns repeatedly pushing his dead body off the ledge.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
Also, remember price had nothing to do with the way this guy was treated, rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish.
It sucks that this guy is dead, but it's not as if Apple forced him to install Silverlight.
Apple's Secrecy Fetish has to be the most aggravating thing about dealing with Apple in a professional sense. My last employer was an all apple shop, and when we talked to their rep about getting a couple more Xraid trays, we were told to wait a couple months- there would be a big announcement that we would be very interested in. That big announcement ? Apple would no longer produce the Xraid and instead would resell rebranded Promise raid boxes, which are shit in comparison. We bought some Sun arrays instead.
And that's the thing. If I'm planning my budget and purchases over the next year or so, I can call up my HP or IBM or Dell rep and get roadmaps and specs and all sorts of things to help me administer my business and my budget. Apple could give a shit less about me.
Which, you know, is cool. Apple makes swell products if you're just riding your fixie to the coffee shop to mingle with other creatives. Apple sucks donkey balls if you do IT administration for a living and have come to expect that vendors actually make your life easier.
And, evidently, Apple really, really, sucks you dare mess with the ASF.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
delmoi: And the thing is, the factories that make those kind of devices don't really employ that much cheap labor. I doubt manufacturing them here or in countries like Japan would really have much impact on the price. The reason so many computer products are made in china really have nothing to do with the price of labor, but rather the fact that so much infrastructure has been put in place already, due to massive government support.
The iPhone may not be cheap compared to the entry level giveaway phones and Apple's cult of secrecy no doubt plays a significant part. But I can't believe you truly think the iPhone could be made for anything near the same price in the US. The US used to have an electronics manufacturing industry, including computers. All the infrastructure was here at one time. There was a reason those industries moved overseas: it was no longer cost effective to continue making computers and other electronics here.
Not a cell phone but for a price comparison the original Mac made in the USA sold for $2500 at introduction in 1984, about $5500 in today's dollars. You can buy a made in China iMac today for $1200. If Apple had continued to manufacture computers in the US an iMac wouldn't cost $5500 today but it sure as hell wouldn't cost anything near $1200.
posted by 6550 at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
The iPhone may not be cheap compared to the entry level giveaway phones and Apple's cult of secrecy no doubt plays a significant part. But I can't believe you truly think the iPhone could be made for anything near the same price in the US. The US used to have an electronics manufacturing industry, including computers. All the infrastructure was here at one time. There was a reason those industries moved overseas: it was no longer cost effective to continue making computers and other electronics here.
Not a cell phone but for a price comparison the original Mac made in the USA sold for $2500 at introduction in 1984, about $5500 in today's dollars. You can buy a made in China iMac today for $1200. If Apple had continued to manufacture computers in the US an iMac wouldn't cost $5500 today but it sure as hell wouldn't cost anything near $1200.
posted by 6550 at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Hands up who's not using a computing device right now? OK, you're off the hook. After I've had a good look round the rest of your place that is...
posted by i_cola at 10:51 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by i_cola at 10:51 AM on July 22, 2009
Without getting into the details, I work at a company that makes cellphones and some of my work involves interacting with people work at companies like Foxconn. It really is a different world there, even for people who do virtually the same job as me. There are people who pretty obviously work insane hours, even in an industry that has notoriously heavy workloads. Most of the engineers I've known at those kinds of companies for a while and then burn out because it's tough. One of the negatives of modern globalized corporations is that you can work with someone over the phone or via email all day and not really have any idea of what kind of conditions they are working under.
And I'm not surprised that this was over prototypes. Leaking prototypes, especially to high tier expensive models, is a big deal because as soon as the details get out the companies that produce knockoffs will start copying it, and the difference between having a product with not competitors versus having a lot of knockoffs available could be hundreds of millions of dollars. Where I work they used to have posters of the "Loose lips sink ships" variety that were closeups of faces of models who looked beat up (with black eyes, cuts, band-aids, etc.). The slogan was something like "Don't hurt the company" but the message most people got was "Leak our products and we'll beat the shit out of you."
posted by burnmp3s at 10:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
And I'm not surprised that this was over prototypes. Leaking prototypes, especially to high tier expensive models, is a big deal because as soon as the details get out the companies that produce knockoffs will start copying it, and the difference between having a product with not competitors versus having a lot of knockoffs available could be hundreds of millions of dollars. Where I work they used to have posters of the "Loose lips sink ships" variety that were closeups of faces of models who looked beat up (with black eyes, cuts, band-aids, etc.). The slogan was something like "Don't hurt the company" but the message most people got was "Leak our products and we'll beat the shit out of you."
posted by burnmp3s at 10:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
That Fake Steve Jobs piece might be the toughest, best piece of satire I have read in a long time, especially in that it so completely implicated the reader. Jesus. I sort of feel like crying now.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:54 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:54 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
What a great way to start the morning, with the realization 99% of my stuff is tainted with the specter of cheap labor and all the associated evils.
I'm going to starbucks.
posted by hellojed at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2009
I'm going to starbucks.
posted by hellojed at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2009
From Foxconn's Business Strategy:
Through the proprietary one-stop shopping vertical integrated eCMMS model to revolutionize the conventional inefficient electronics outsourcing model;
Woah, woah, WOAH, fellas! Baby steps.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Through the proprietary one-stop shopping vertical integrated eCMMS model to revolutionize the conventional inefficient electronics outsourcing model;
Woah, woah, WOAH, fellas! Baby steps.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
And the thing is, the factories that make those kind of devices don't really employ that much cheap labor. I doubt manufacturing them here or in countries like Japan would really have much impact on the price.
You could probably get them made in Japan, for more, but it would be nearly impossible to make them here for anything remotely close to the cost in China. Rubbermaid was forced to move their plant from the US to China to remain competitive, and they make plastic bins in a process that is almost completely automated. Dell doesn't even make computers here anymore.
You have to remember that in China, labor is functionally free. Secondly, the cost to obtain environmental clearance to operate these facilities here is staggering. Third, most of the parts in the iPhone are coming from other vendors in China or Taiwan, so now you have a massively more complex shipping and logistics problem to contend with.
Consumerism is at fault here. Look, many people are buying iPhones and other crap with credit cards they can't pay off. But consumerism is not a disease - that would imply that it isn't the consumers fault. Consumerism is a bad habit, like picking your nose. Anyone can get them selves out of the mindset that makes people check websites like Gizmodo or Engadget every day, but they choose not to.
The reality is that most people don't care about the abusive factory in China that builds their luxury phone. They don't care about the illegal alien who mows their lawn or paints their house. They float above it completely oblivious. Whatever the morlochs have to do to keep the world running is their own filthy business. Just as long as they keep it running.
posted by Pastabagel at 11:10 AM on July 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
You could probably get them made in Japan, for more, but it would be nearly impossible to make them here for anything remotely close to the cost in China. Rubbermaid was forced to move their plant from the US to China to remain competitive, and they make plastic bins in a process that is almost completely automated. Dell doesn't even make computers here anymore.
You have to remember that in China, labor is functionally free. Secondly, the cost to obtain environmental clearance to operate these facilities here is staggering. Third, most of the parts in the iPhone are coming from other vendors in China or Taiwan, so now you have a massively more complex shipping and logistics problem to contend with.
Consumerism is at fault here. Look, many people are buying iPhones and other crap with credit cards they can't pay off. But consumerism is not a disease - that would imply that it isn't the consumers fault. Consumerism is a bad habit, like picking your nose. Anyone can get them selves out of the mindset that makes people check websites like Gizmodo or Engadget every day, but they choose not to.
The reality is that most people don't care about the abusive factory in China that builds their luxury phone. They don't care about the illegal alien who mows their lawn or paints their house. They float above it completely oblivious. Whatever the morlochs have to do to keep the world running is their own filthy business. Just as long as they keep it running.
posted by Pastabagel at 11:10 AM on July 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
Out of cynical curiosity, where do you do your electronics shopping?
NewEgg, in general.
Also, I own an iPhone. I'm jes messin' with you guys. *smooch*
posted by adamdschneider at 11:21 AM on July 22, 2009
NewEgg, in general.
Also, I own an iPhone. I'm jes messin' with you guys. *smooch*
posted by adamdschneider at 11:21 AM on July 22, 2009
It's not about supposed moral failings of American consumers or Apple consumers. It's the logic of global capitalism.
There's been a "a deep, and lasting, decline of the rate of return on capital investment since the end of the 1960s. The failure of the rate of profit to recover is all the more remarkable, in view of the huge drop-off in the growth of real wages over the period. The main cause, though not the only cause, of the decline in the rate of profit has been a persistent tendency to overcapacity in global manufacturing industries. What happened was that, one-after-another, new manufacturing power entered the world market — Germany and Japan, the Northeast Asian NICs (Newly Industrializing Countries), the southeast Asian Tigers, and, finally, the Chinese Leviathan."* You get the flood of FDI into the above countries and lately China and the shift of manufacturing here in an attempt to maintain rates of profit, not because American (or other Western) consumers historically had ever become massively unhappy with the availability and pricing of goods in their home markets or the speed at which innovation happened and clamoured to have their own jobs sent overseas to places with weaker social protections.
posted by Abiezer at 11:30 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
There's been a "a deep, and lasting, decline of the rate of return on capital investment since the end of the 1960s. The failure of the rate of profit to recover is all the more remarkable, in view of the huge drop-off in the growth of real wages over the period. The main cause, though not the only cause, of the decline in the rate of profit has been a persistent tendency to overcapacity in global manufacturing industries. What happened was that, one-after-another, new manufacturing power entered the world market — Germany and Japan, the Northeast Asian NICs (Newly Industrializing Countries), the southeast Asian Tigers, and, finally, the Chinese Leviathan."* You get the flood of FDI into the above countries and lately China and the shift of manufacturing here in an attempt to maintain rates of profit, not because American (or other Western) consumers historically had ever become massively unhappy with the availability and pricing of goods in their home markets or the speed at which innovation happened and clamoured to have their own jobs sent overseas to places with weaker social protections.
posted by Abiezer at 11:30 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Let's keep the focus where it belongs, on the Apple consumers who think they're above all this.
Me, me! *Jumps up and down with hand raised* I've got an anecdote to confirm the stereotype!
I was hanging out with two friends of mine a couple of years ago, one of whom is a very granola, crunchy, tie-dye lesbian and another who, though goofy and warm of heart, is very strictly religious. We got into a discussion about Christmas and granola-crunchy girl went on and on about how morally bankrupt and superficial a holiday it is and how it's the product of thoughtless zombie consumerism. Religious friend thinks that modern Christians are loosey-goosey and spineless rule-benders, and so enthusiastically agreed.
So it was left to me, an atheist, to say that Christmas is my favorite holiday and I really don't think it's distinctively all that bad compared to the way the rest of our society works anyways. And that hating on Christmas is a faddish thing that people do as a sort of rebellion-nonconformist chic, against a culture and society that they buy into when it's convenient or suits their own purposes or style.
On the way out on the town we got into granola crunchy lesbian's car and there smack in the middle of her dashboard was an iPod stereo. I did not allow this to go un-remarked-upon.
The problem isn't specifically consumerism, it's even more generally an issue of passing the buck morally and making exceptions to ethical conduct for yourself or your own interests. The totalitarian regime ruling China is in many respects the descendant of the progressives and convention-defiers of yesteryear, who on the road to gaining political power and once in political power started making exceptions for themselves and never stopped. (And of course throw an egomaniacal sociopath like Mao in there as the cause of China's woes, but you get what I mean - the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.)
posted by XMLicious at 11:32 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Okay, I'm sold. How do I get a quality mobile phone that's made in the USA (union if possible)? The American Apparel thread has gotten me thinking a lot about buying choices, and I'm sick of just sitting behind my Mac Mini snarking at everyone.
I don't need web access. A camera and an mp3 player are nice; I don't use anything else. Needs to be compatible with Verizon, but doesn't have to be distributed by Verizon. I'm willing to forego my free "new every two" so I can be smug on Metafilter.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:34 AM on July 22, 2009
I don't need web access. A camera and an mp3 player are nice; I don't use anything else. Needs to be compatible with Verizon, but doesn't have to be distributed by Verizon. I'm willing to forego my free "new every two" so I can be smug on Metafilter.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:34 AM on July 22, 2009
I'm not quite clear on how the general labor conditions in China (let alone any other parts of the globalized manufacturing sector) relates to this particular incident, which is about relatively high-level issues of corporate fears relating to industrial espionage. That is, even in an industry where the workers were treated really well, one images that Apple would have come down like a ton of bricks on this guy. He wasn't driven to suicide by being forced to work for pennies-an-hour, he was driven to suicide because he was suspected of stealing company secrets. The whole "logic of global capitalism" angle seems oddly tangential to the facts of the case.
posted by yoink at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2009
posted by yoink at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2009
The worst of all was Katie. She came in and she's like, You're fucking kidding me, right? Are you kidding me? What'd they do, give you Phil Donahue's liver? Or what, when they put in a liver they take out your balls? I didn't realize that. Steve, the guy was weak. That's all. He was weak. And what's more, he was stealing from us. Do you hear me? Stealing. You think he lost a prototype? Please. He didn't lose shit. And whether he jumped or got pushed, does it matter? For what it's worth, my take is it wasn't Foxconn that threw him off the roof, it was whoever he was working for. Whoever was paying him. They were worried he'd rat them out. Jesus, Steve. You know I love you, but what the fuck is wrong with you these days? Man up, okay? Man the fuck up. Or I'm seriously going to start worrying about you.
this is an extremely convincing depiction of the sort of mindset that sleeps well at night when they're involved in this kind of thing. accurate? I don't know. But, for what it's worth (virtually nothing) it's extremely convincing.
posted by shmegegge at 11:38 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
this is an extremely convincing depiction of the sort of mindset that sleeps well at night when they're involved in this kind of thing. accurate? I don't know. But, for what it's worth (virtually nothing) it's extremely convincing.
posted by shmegegge at 11:38 AM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
The whole "logic of global capitalism" angle seems oddly tangential to the facts of the case.
You imagine the kind of corporate governance that produced the culture under which a company would kidnap and beat one of its own employees, driving him to his death, is not somehow related to the development of the rule of law and social protections in China?
It's not unimaginable in a Western nation, but it's certainly more run-of-the-mill here.
posted by Abiezer at 11:41 AM on July 22, 2009
You imagine the kind of corporate governance that produced the culture under which a company would kidnap and beat one of its own employees, driving him to his death, is not somehow related to the development of the rule of law and social protections in China?
It's not unimaginable in a Western nation, but it's certainly more run-of-the-mill here.
posted by Abiezer at 11:41 AM on July 22, 2009
Apple doesn't have its iPhones built by Foxconn in China because they enjoy complex international business deals and working across a language barrier; they do it because otherwise, that $400 iPhone might cost $600, and lots of people wouldn't buy it and would instead buy something from a manufacturer who did play the race-to-the-bottom game.
I think we should remember that there's a little thing called profit involved here, not just manufacturing costs. From what I could find, the cost to manufacture an the $200 i-phone 3G is $100, and Apple gets a cut of the service contract.
When these jobs are getting shipped overeas, I think we need to remember that corporations also love to 1. increase their profit margin, and 2. not be hassled by a democratic government. It's much easier to deal with a totalitarian state that will silence it's citizens and not impose environmental protections.
Americans wanting cheap products is not really the culprit here, but Americans be willing to purchase items from companies manufacturing in China is. And, the Chinese government. And globalization...and many other things. But the "we want cheap goods" argument seems a little simple to me.
And yes, I have an i-phone.
posted by fyrebelley at 11:49 AM on July 22, 2009
I think we should remember that there's a little thing called profit involved here, not just manufacturing costs. From what I could find, the cost to manufacture an the $200 i-phone 3G is $100, and Apple gets a cut of the service contract.
When these jobs are getting shipped overeas, I think we need to remember that corporations also love to 1. increase their profit margin, and 2. not be hassled by a democratic government. It's much easier to deal with a totalitarian state that will silence it's citizens and not impose environmental protections.
Americans wanting cheap products is not really the culprit here, but Americans be willing to purchase items from companies manufacturing in China is. And, the Chinese government. And globalization...and many other things. But the "we want cheap goods" argument seems a little simple to me.
And yes, I have an i-phone.
posted by fyrebelley at 11:49 AM on July 22, 2009
Okay, I'm sold. How do I get a quality mobile phone that's made in the USA (union if possible)?
LOL ROTFL
posted by designbot at 11:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
LOL ROTFL
posted by designbot at 11:52 AM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Go to the corner shop where they sell the American-made televisions.
Also, if you can't find that place, stop and ask for directions at the local US car dealership. The salesman will know exactly what you are talking about.
posted by nervousfritz at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2009
Also, if you can't find that place, stop and ask for directions at the local US car dealership. The salesman will know exactly what you are talking about.
posted by nervousfritz at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2009
Did anyone else notice this quote (via the Gizmodo article) from a Foxconn "company spokesperson":
But can you imagine any, ANY PR flack from a Western company who would dare admit that her beloved corporation could ever have done anything even slightly wrong, might indeed be anything less than a perfect workers' paradise?
It struck me that in China, there's room for companies to actively participate in making their workers' lives better, because they don't have to worry about being sued into bankruptcy the moment they admit any kind of liability whatsoever.
posted by xthlc at 12:07 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Regardless of the reason of Sun's suicide, it is to some extent a reflection of Foxconn's internal management deficiencies, especially in how to help young workers cope with the psychological pressures of working life at the company.OK, so workers have basically no rights in China and there's a lot of abuse and this suicide is an perfect example of a flawed system.
But can you imagine any, ANY PR flack from a Western company who would dare admit that her beloved corporation could ever have done anything even slightly wrong, might indeed be anything less than a perfect workers' paradise?
It struck me that in China, there's room for companies to actively participate in making their workers' lives better, because they don't have to worry about being sued into bankruptcy the moment they admit any kind of liability whatsoever.
posted by xthlc at 12:07 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Halloween Jack: "Remind me, if you could, where you got this information from? Aside from the FSJ post, which is, you know, satire?"
Dude, Apple's culture of secrecy is 100% Real Steve Jobs. Do you really dispute that?
posted by mwhybark at 12:09 PM on July 22, 2009
Dude, Apple's culture of secrecy is 100% Real Steve Jobs. Do you really dispute that?
posted by mwhybark at 12:09 PM on July 22, 2009
I thought this bit of Fake Steve was one of those moments where the satirist just tells the truth, and possibly the purest moment on Fake Steve's illustrious career.
"What's more, you know it. Everyone knows it."
It's a secret to everybody.
posted by Evilspork at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2009
"What's more, you know it. Everyone knows it."
It's a secret to everybody.
posted by Evilspork at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2009
fungible: "Wow, way to construe something based on no evidence or details whatsoever."
Way to misread what I was saying. Apple's culture of secrecy created the conditions that killed this kid. Steve Jobs created the culture of secrecy. Not really hard to do the math here.
posted by mwhybark at 12:12 PM on July 22, 2009
Way to misread what I was saying. Apple's culture of secrecy created the conditions that killed this kid. Steve Jobs created the culture of secrecy. Not really hard to do the math here.
posted by mwhybark at 12:12 PM on July 22, 2009
Everyone in this thread talking about how this is the fault of the American consumer (or German or Japanese...whatever, let's call it industrialized country consumer) is missing the point. Consumer activism is a cop out.
It's about the fault of American citizens. Fact is this entire "consumer activism" thing is misplaced. The fact is that as American citizens we can act collectively, through government to regulate what is imported into the United States. We can control what is legally importable through our borders. We chose to allow China and other countries with sub par labor standards to export to the USA. Thus, we force American workers to compete with Chinese workers, driving down labor standards everywhere. We do have the de jure power to change this.
Of course then there's the argument that American citizens don't really have the ability to change any part of our government, that political organizing is useless blah blah blah blah blah. Well if you believe that then just give up already and get the hell out of the way of those of us who'd like to do something.
posted by wuwei at 12:13 PM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
It's about the fault of American citizens. Fact is this entire "consumer activism" thing is misplaced. The fact is that as American citizens we can act collectively, through government to regulate what is imported into the United States. We can control what is legally importable through our borders. We chose to allow China and other countries with sub par labor standards to export to the USA. Thus, we force American workers to compete with Chinese workers, driving down labor standards everywhere. We do have the de jure power to change this.
Of course then there's the argument that American citizens don't really have the ability to change any part of our government, that political organizing is useless blah blah blah blah blah. Well if you believe that then just give up already and get the hell out of the way of those of us who'd like to do something.
posted by wuwei at 12:13 PM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
Navelgazer: "particularly into the matter of whether he was actually pushed."
Argh, FSJ is the ONLY source for that implication. He may well be 'only serious' but no other sources (that I have read, anyway) are even mentioning that possibility.
posted by mwhybark at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2009
Argh, FSJ is the ONLY source for that implication. He may well be 'only serious' but no other sources (that I have read, anyway) are even mentioning that possibility.
posted by mwhybark at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2009
Remember, once upon a time, when WalMart had a "Made In The U.S.A." policy, and they would routinely advertise that they aggressively sought out products for their shelves which were manufactured domestically?
I even remember them advertising that, if they carried a product from overseas, they would try actively to replace that on their shelves with one that wasn't.
Seriously, this really is how it used to be.
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
I even remember them advertising that, if they carried a product from overseas, they would try actively to replace that on their shelves with one that wasn't.
Seriously, this really is how it used to be.
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Not really hard to do the math here.
well, that's some awfully selective math, there. I'm not saying that Apple's completely uninvolved or anything, but the chain from secrecy to suicide is not direct. at the simplest, it's
secrecy + american consumer culture + globalization + mistake + corporate repercussions + overseas culture of corporate abuse + serious wrongdoing on part of chinese manufacturer + lack of governmental oversight = suicide.
and I'm certainly over simplifying it. there are probably division signs and shit in there. fuck, maybe square roots? I don't know.
posted by shmegegge at 12:17 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
well, that's some awfully selective math, there. I'm not saying that Apple's completely uninvolved or anything, but the chain from secrecy to suicide is not direct. at the simplest, it's
secrecy + american consumer culture + globalization + mistake + corporate repercussions + overseas culture of corporate abuse + serious wrongdoing on part of chinese manufacturer + lack of governmental oversight = suicide.
and I'm certainly over simplifying it. there are probably division signs and shit in there. fuck, maybe square roots? I don't know.
posted by shmegegge at 12:17 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
You can't have an Omelas without breaking a couple of eggs....
posted by tzikeh at 12:18 PM on July 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 12:18 PM on July 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
roll truck roll, I like to buy used products when I see no convenient ethical alternative. Then I'm at least not directly supporting an industry.
Through this "consumer activism", there is the benefit of spreading awareness. The more folks there are who know (and care!) about an issue, the more likely a politician will be to respond his/her constituents.
posted by aniola at 12:23 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Through this "consumer activism", there is the benefit of spreading awareness. The more folks there are who know (and care!) about an issue, the more likely a politician will be to respond his/her constituents.
posted by aniola at 12:23 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Wow, I can't believe how many of you are totally missing the point here. How dense...
The main thing that I took away from this is 'iPhone FOURTH GENERATION'!!!! HOLY FUCK, I wonder how shiny it is?! I wonder how the new shiny bits relate to the old shiny bits. Anyone here willing to speculate on how awesome that thing is? This chinese guy that got fired or whatever probably went totally insane after just looking at the thing! Oh lord, I'd kill a man just to have my contract expire before this thing is released!
posted by iloveit at 12:25 PM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
The main thing that I took away from this is 'iPhone FOURTH GENERATION'!!!! HOLY FUCK, I wonder how shiny it is?! I wonder how the new shiny bits relate to the old shiny bits. Anyone here willing to speculate on how awesome that thing is? This chinese guy that got fired or whatever probably went totally insane after just looking at the thing! Oh lord, I'd kill a man just to have my contract expire before this thing is released!
posted by iloveit at 12:25 PM on July 22, 2009 [9 favorites]
I suppose that the Asian culture of responsibility and shame is as valid an explanation of this suicide as any other, but has nobody even raised the question of murder? As in, the security blokes tossed him off the roof?
posted by dhartung at 12:29 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by dhartung at 12:29 PM on July 22, 2009
shmegegge: "I'm certainly over simplifying it. there are probably division signs and shit in there. fuck, maybe square roots? I don't know."
Ha-ha, well stated! There are a bunch of overlapping issues in this thread and the fact that FSJ's remakable satire did the raveling is making it more complicated to keep 'em separate.
I suppose one test of the secrecy fetish as contributing factor would be to look for other instances of Chinese prototype product loss leading one way or another to the death of a Chinese worker. Stated that way, I would be actively surprised to discover that this was a unique death, so I guess that might let Steve off the hook.
For the record, I should make it clear that I am a die-hard Mac person who really does own more Apple-manufactured stuff than I could ever need or use. No iPhone, though. Waiting on the price to come down.
posted by mwhybark at 12:30 PM on July 22, 2009
Ha-ha, well stated! There are a bunch of overlapping issues in this thread and the fact that FSJ's remakable satire did the raveling is making it more complicated to keep 'em separate.
I suppose one test of the secrecy fetish as contributing factor would be to look for other instances of Chinese prototype product loss leading one way or another to the death of a Chinese worker. Stated that way, I would be actively surprised to discover that this was a unique death, so I guess that might let Steve off the hook.
For the record, I should make it clear that I am a die-hard Mac person who really does own more Apple-manufactured stuff than I could ever need or use. No iPhone, though. Waiting on the price to come down.
posted by mwhybark at 12:30 PM on July 22, 2009
This isn't the first time someone has died over an Apple handheld, either.
posted by fightorflight at 12:31 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by fightorflight at 12:31 PM on July 22, 2009
I feel bad.
*Plays Scrabble on his iPhone*
Ahhh, much better.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:37 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
*Plays Scrabble on his iPhone*
Ahhh, much better.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:37 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
We can control what is legally importable through our borders. We chose to allow China and other countries with sub par labor standards to export to the USA. Thus, we force American workers to compete with Chinese workers, driving down labor standards everywhere. We do have the de jure power to change this.
Sure. But we don't, because we're addicted as a society to cheap stuff. Or at least to stuff that's cheap when you buy it, because it has its costs externalized elsewhere. We could, if we desired, slap tariffs on Chinese imports sufficient to level the playing field between operations like Foxconn and a similar operation run using unionized labor here in the States. But it's not going to happen, because it would cause the price of goods to increase here.
We had an opportunity to do something like that about 20 years ago, when most of the high-tech assembly work was still being done here. But we didn't, and moving in the other direction would be incredibly difficult. We let the whole industry go, because it meant cheaper stuff and, to a lesser extent, higher profit margins. (Although I'd debate the latter — profit margins for most hardware companies have narrowed significantly over the years; the companies that are still around run very lean, cost-focused operations. They might have originally outsourced in the hopes of higher profits, but they're now locked in by price pressure. That sort of shortsightedness wouldn't be hard to believe.)
That ship has quite literally — in the form of thousands of containerships a year — sailed. What we should be looking at now is not how to recapture electronics assembly work, but how to stop the next industry which is currently served by living-wage employees from beginning its own race to the bottom.
As for the comments regarding Foxconn in particular, although they do have some actual automated manufacturing here and there, the plants that are being discussed are assembly operations and hugely labor-dependent. Although there is an increasing amount of actual fabrication done in the PRC, the high-cost components of something like an iPhone — the ICs, the screen, the memory — generally come from places like the US, Israel, Japan, Germany, or S. Korea. Essentially, the automated high-tech production is done in high-wage countries, while assembly and test is done in China or other low-wage locales. (Apple isn't the only one: cf. Intel's list of fabs; many are in the US, but none of their test/assembly plants are. That's not accidental.)
Although the iPhone might not look like a "hand made" device, there is a lot of manual labor involved in putting the pieces together into a finished product, and packing that product up. Doubtless many of the manual operations could be automated, but it's not cost effective to when you can pay armies of workers $50/mo instead.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:15 PM on July 22, 2009
Sure. But we don't, because we're addicted as a society to cheap stuff. Or at least to stuff that's cheap when you buy it, because it has its costs externalized elsewhere. We could, if we desired, slap tariffs on Chinese imports sufficient to level the playing field between operations like Foxconn and a similar operation run using unionized labor here in the States. But it's not going to happen, because it would cause the price of goods to increase here.
We had an opportunity to do something like that about 20 years ago, when most of the high-tech assembly work was still being done here. But we didn't, and moving in the other direction would be incredibly difficult. We let the whole industry go, because it meant cheaper stuff and, to a lesser extent, higher profit margins. (Although I'd debate the latter — profit margins for most hardware companies have narrowed significantly over the years; the companies that are still around run very lean, cost-focused operations. They might have originally outsourced in the hopes of higher profits, but they're now locked in by price pressure. That sort of shortsightedness wouldn't be hard to believe.)
That ship has quite literally — in the form of thousands of containerships a year — sailed. What we should be looking at now is not how to recapture electronics assembly work, but how to stop the next industry which is currently served by living-wage employees from beginning its own race to the bottom.
As for the comments regarding Foxconn in particular, although they do have some actual automated manufacturing here and there, the plants that are being discussed are assembly operations and hugely labor-dependent. Although there is an increasing amount of actual fabrication done in the PRC, the high-cost components of something like an iPhone — the ICs, the screen, the memory — generally come from places like the US, Israel, Japan, Germany, or S. Korea. Essentially, the automated high-tech production is done in high-wage countries, while assembly and test is done in China or other low-wage locales. (Apple isn't the only one: cf. Intel's list of fabs; many are in the US, but none of their test/assembly plants are. That's not accidental.)
Although the iPhone might not look like a "hand made" device, there is a lot of manual labor involved in putting the pieces together into a finished product, and packing that product up. Doubtless many of the manual operations could be automated, but it's not cost effective to when you can pay armies of workers $50/mo instead.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:15 PM on July 22, 2009
You imagine the kind of corporate governance that produced the culture under which a company would kidnap and beat one of its own employees, driving him to his death, is not somehow related to the development of the rule of law and social protections in China?
It's not unimaginable in a Western nation, but it's certainly more run-of-the-mill here.
Again, that seems to have a lot to do with the nature of China's government, but not a lot to do, per se, with the "logic of global capitalism." There's no inherent connection between a low-wage, high-growth economy and a corrupt and underdeveloped legal system. China had a corrupt and pusillanimous legal system long before it hopped on the global capitalism gravy train.
posted by yoink at 1:17 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's not unimaginable in a Western nation, but it's certainly more run-of-the-mill here.
Again, that seems to have a lot to do with the nature of China's government, but not a lot to do, per se, with the "logic of global capitalism." There's no inherent connection between a low-wage, high-growth economy and a corrupt and underdeveloped legal system. China had a corrupt and pusillanimous legal system long before it hopped on the global capitalism gravy train.
posted by yoink at 1:17 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is what happens when you're afraid to open the source.
posted by koeselitz at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by koeselitz at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2009
Again, that seems to have a lot to do with the nature of China's government, but not a lot to do, per se, with the "logic of global capitalism."
fyrebelley spoke to this above:
When these jobs are getting shipped overeas, I think we need to remember that corporations also love to 1. increase their profit margin, and 2. not be hassled by a democratic government. It's much easier to deal with a totalitarian state that will silence it's citizens and not impose environmental protections.
There's also a kind of hierarchy of factory hell/associated cost within Asia, you know. There's a reason why these operations move from, eg: Malaysia to China. The "pre-existing infrastructure" argument ignores that manufacturing happily moves from places of even incrementally greater cost and any sign of interference from government to a place of lesser cost/resistance. Of course the markup is on our side. That doesn't change the fact that ethical considerations are given only exactly as much weight as customers do, whether that's Kathy Lee Gifford line clothing or Adidas shoes. (or your latest techno-fix)
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2009
fyrebelley spoke to this above:
When these jobs are getting shipped overeas, I think we need to remember that corporations also love to 1. increase their profit margin, and 2. not be hassled by a democratic government. It's much easier to deal with a totalitarian state that will silence it's citizens and not impose environmental protections.
There's also a kind of hierarchy of factory hell/associated cost within Asia, you know. There's a reason why these operations move from, eg: Malaysia to China. The "pre-existing infrastructure" argument ignores that manufacturing happily moves from places of even incrementally greater cost and any sign of interference from government to a place of lesser cost/resistance. Of course the markup is on our side. That doesn't change the fact that ethical considerations are given only exactly as much weight as customers do, whether that's Kathy Lee Gifford line clothing or Adidas shoes. (or your latest techno-fix)
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2009
re: Roll Truck Roll and the quest for ethical cell phones
I can't think of any phones made in the US, but if you're willing to buy from first world countries in general with well-paid workers, Nokia is your answer.
You will have to hunt a bit for the "Made in Finland" label as they seem to split their production between the local factories and Hong Kong and you may have to make a sacrifice by switching to a GSM carrier, as I don't know if any of the CDMA models are built in Finland.
Furthermore, I have no idea if the workers in Finland are unionized, but since they seem to have a decent or great standard of living, I suppose they're well compensated with little threat of being pushed off of a building. If someone lost a pre-production model, they might be barred from the company sauna for a week but that would probably be the extent of their worries.
Of course, Nokia helped the Iranian government build the firewall that's blocking communications by the resistance, so giving them money is also an ethical compromise.
posted by pandaharma at 1:57 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
I can't think of any phones made in the US, but if you're willing to buy from first world countries in general with well-paid workers, Nokia is your answer.
You will have to hunt a bit for the "Made in Finland" label as they seem to split their production between the local factories and Hong Kong and you may have to make a sacrifice by switching to a GSM carrier, as I don't know if any of the CDMA models are built in Finland.
Furthermore, I have no idea if the workers in Finland are unionized, but since they seem to have a decent or great standard of living, I suppose they're well compensated with little threat of being pushed off of a building. If someone lost a pre-production model, they might be barred from the company sauna for a week but that would probably be the extent of their worries.
Of course, Nokia helped the Iranian government build the firewall that's blocking communications by the resistance, so giving them money is also an ethical compromise.
posted by pandaharma at 1:57 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
You can hate Christmas and still own an iPod, I have it on good authority.
posted by jessamyn at 2:07 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 2:07 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is what happens when you're afraid to open the source.
Oh, bullpuckys.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:16 PM on July 22, 2009
Oh, bullpuckys.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:16 PM on July 22, 2009
But can you imagine any, ANY PR flack from a Western company who would dare admit that her beloved corporation could ever have done anything even slightly wrong, might indeed be anything less than a perfect workers' paradise?
Yes. Happens all the time. Corporations frequently admit something has gone wrong and try to take action to fix the problem / salvage their brand image. Denny's. Texaco. Every company that's ever been forced to recall products, such as Graco, Bird's Eye or Ford.
In each case, the process takes a predictable path:
* Delay / Denial (More likely the former than the latter. "We're looking into it.")
* Bolstering ("We have always held our employees to the highest standards.")
* Shifting the Blame (Note: NOT abrogation of responsibility. Typically, blame is shifted to a small group to protect the rest of the company/brand)
* Mortification ("We are shocked and saddened....")
* Corrective Action
* Reporting results of said actions to the public.
Public Relations Crisis Management is rarely about lying to the public. Usually it's more of an attempt to minimize fallout damage.
posted by zarq at 2:16 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yes. Happens all the time. Corporations frequently admit something has gone wrong and try to take action to fix the problem / salvage their brand image. Denny's. Texaco. Every company that's ever been forced to recall products, such as Graco, Bird's Eye or Ford.
In each case, the process takes a predictable path:
* Delay / Denial (More likely the former than the latter. "We're looking into it.")
* Bolstering ("We have always held our employees to the highest standards.")
* Shifting the Blame (Note: NOT abrogation of responsibility. Typically, blame is shifted to a small group to protect the rest of the company/brand)
* Mortification ("We are shocked and saddened....")
* Corrective Action
* Reporting results of said actions to the public.
Public Relations Crisis Management is rarely about lying to the public. Usually it's more of an attempt to minimize fallout damage.
posted by zarq at 2:16 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Alternative to Chinese iPhones: Made in Switzerland, Made in Britain, Made in Canada.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Although the iPhone might not look like a "hand made" device, there is a lot of manual labor involved in putting the pieces together into a finished product, and packing that product up. Doubtless many of the manual operations could be automated, but it's not cost effective to when you can pay armies of workers $50/mo instead.
And even then, it's not like Chinese citizens are better off unemployed than they are employed at a place like Foxconn.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:24 PM on July 22, 2009
And even then, it's not like Chinese citizens are better off unemployed than they are employed at a place like Foxconn.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:24 PM on July 22, 2009
Public Relations Crisis Management is rarely about lying to the public. Usually it's more of an attempt to minimize fallout damage.
sometimes by lying to the public.
posted by shmegegge at 2:25 PM on July 22, 2009
sometimes by lying to the public.
posted by shmegegge at 2:25 PM on July 22, 2009
sometimes by lying to the public.
Correction: I should have said "Effective, ethical Public Relations Crisis Management is rarely about lying to the public."
As a publicist, I have managed a few crises for clients (both corporate and otherwise.)
A smart, experienced publicist won't lie outright and/or misrepresent the facts to the media, especially during a crisis. Of course, they won't always be given a choice by management. But lies have a tendency to come out at the worst possible times and in the most destructive manner possible. We work hard to build trust and relationships with journalists. Lie, and you not only create a no-win situation, but also run the risk of being branded an untrustworthy liaison.
A publicist may lie to cover a person or company's rear. But it's never a good idea.
posted by zarq at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2009
Correction: I should have said "Effective, ethical Public Relations Crisis Management is rarely about lying to the public."
As a publicist, I have managed a few crises for clients (both corporate and otherwise.)
A smart, experienced publicist won't lie outright and/or misrepresent the facts to the media, especially during a crisis. Of course, they won't always be given a choice by management. But lies have a tendency to come out at the worst possible times and in the most destructive manner possible. We work hard to build trust and relationships with journalists. Lie, and you not only create a no-win situation, but also run the risk of being branded an untrustworthy liaison.
A publicist may lie to cover a person or company's rear. But it's never a good idea.
posted by zarq at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2009
We all know that there's no fucking way in the world we should have microwave ovens and refrigerators and TV sets and everything else at the prices we're paying for them. There's no way we get all this stuff and everything is done fair and square and everyone gets treated right. No way. And don't be confused -- what we're talking about here is our way of life. Our standard of living. You want to "fix things in China," well, it's gonna cost you. Because everything you own, it's all done on the backs of millions of poor people whose lives are so awful you can't even begin to imagine them, people who will do anything to get a life that is a tiny bit better than the shitty one they were born into, people who get exploited and treated like shit and, in the worst of all cases, pay with their lives.
Fake or not, Steve makes a valid, if also totally depressing point.
Reading this and simultaneously looking at my brand new iPod sends conflicting feelings: "Oh wow, this gadget has actually lived up to the hype and really, truly revolutionized my life and I have the fricking CONCISE OED in my pocket, which is like every nerd's wet-dream. And oh, yeah, I bought into the conspicuous consumerist American culture where everything has to be newer and better and shinier, which is destroying the world. But... it's got A MONKEY on it!"
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Fake or not, Steve makes a valid, if also totally depressing point.
Reading this and simultaneously looking at my brand new iPod sends conflicting feelings: "Oh wow, this gadget has actually lived up to the hype and really, truly revolutionized my life and I have the fricking CONCISE OED in my pocket, which is like every nerd's wet-dream. And oh, yeah, I bought into the conspicuous consumerist American culture where everything has to be newer and better and shinier, which is destroying the world. But... it's got A MONKEY on it!"
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Blazecock Pileon: "Alternative to Chinese iPhones: Made in Switzerland."
Are you sure? 'Cause that is some fugly, over-the-top, craaazy bling bling flash grotesquerie right there. SOLD by the gnomes, you bet. Made by 'em? Designed by 'em? Um.
posted by mwhybark at 2:52 PM on July 22, 2009
Are you sure? 'Cause that is some fugly, over-the-top, craaazy bling bling flash grotesquerie right there. SOLD by the gnomes, you bet. Made by 'em? Designed by 'em? Um.
posted by mwhybark at 2:52 PM on July 22, 2009
My point is that those are luxury phones that very few are willing to pay for. But you can almost certainly avoid sweatshop labor through those outfits, if you're willing to pay the costs for supporting those niche markets.
One alternative is, as consumers and shareholders, to put pressure on Apple and — in turn — Apple placing pressure on its vendors. Apple listened and continues to listen about environmental concerns, for example, so there's no reason to expect that Apple can't buy a better supplier, once it is motivated to do so from the people who have the most say in the company's direction: you and me.
Another alternative, apparently most popular in the press and on Metafilter, is to indirectly blame Steve Jobs, Apple or users of Apple products for this man's death, even though there is no evidence to support those claims. That works out best for everyone concerned, as that means we don't need to do much more than be outraged and trot out the same tired garbage arguments.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
One alternative is, as consumers and shareholders, to put pressure on Apple and — in turn — Apple placing pressure on its vendors. Apple listened and continues to listen about environmental concerns, for example, so there's no reason to expect that Apple can't buy a better supplier, once it is motivated to do so from the people who have the most say in the company's direction: you and me.
Another alternative, apparently most popular in the press and on Metafilter, is to indirectly blame Steve Jobs, Apple or users of Apple products for this man's death, even though there is no evidence to support those claims. That works out best for everyone concerned, as that means we don't need to do much more than be outraged and trot out the same tired garbage arguments.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Since they're putting RFIDs in damn near everything these days, I would less against the general concept (at least pre-purchase) of having those little tags everywhere if you could wave some device at some shiny object on the shelf and find out more about it. You know, connect to a database and find out that while the last 10% of it was assembled in America, it was primarily designed, mined, molded, and made in countries W, X, Y, and Z. Why yes, this bunch of bananas traveled 4,000 miles to get here. Deep nutritional information. Was it made in a factory that handles peanut products? Basically, every kind of data you could want so you can make an informed decision in line with, well, however you want to spend your money.
Of course, the app would probably be for the iPhone ...
posted by adipocere at 3:10 PM on July 22, 2009
Of course, the app would probably be for the iPhone ...
posted by adipocere at 3:10 PM on July 22, 2009
Blazecock Pileon: "My point is that those are luxury phones that very few are willing to pay for.
Oh, point taken. FWIW wikipedia does credit a Francophonist last-named fellow as 'designer,' so one supposes the opportunity to sell a handset for up to $1.3 million might well overcome an ingrained preference for clean modernist design.
posted by mwhybark at 3:20 PM on July 22, 2009
Oh, point taken. FWIW wikipedia does credit a Francophonist last-named fellow as 'designer,' so one supposes the opportunity to sell a handset for up to $1.3 million might well overcome an ingrained preference for clean modernist design.
posted by mwhybark at 3:20 PM on July 22, 2009
Oops, and sure, consumer pressure on Apple actually has a hstory of making a difference - something else I think we can also credit el Jobso with in part. The dude is a unique case, and the company he heads reflects his personality and his values, one of which is obsessive secrecy and one of which is at a minimum above-average corporate citizenship.
And don't mistake the FSJ piece for useless Jobs-bashing - Real Steve is on record as having occasionally read it, although I doubt very much he'll be directed to it by, er, Katie or whoever. It's having an effect in this thread, for lands' sake, and of course everyone at Apple reads it (he asserted groundlessly). Those darts struck home.
posted by mwhybark at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2009
And don't mistake the FSJ piece for useless Jobs-bashing - Real Steve is on record as having occasionally read it, although I doubt very much he'll be directed to it by, er, Katie or whoever. It's having an effect in this thread, for lands' sake, and of course everyone at Apple reads it (he asserted groundlessly). Those darts struck home.
posted by mwhybark at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2009
Right now, an entrepreneur is creating a pitch for "cruelty-free" electronics. The happy, fairly-remunerated workers will be housed in Cadbury village accomodation and you can watch them sing in their work via webcams mounted over the assembly line. Then you, the consumer, can decide what sort of premium you'd like to pay to salve your conscience as you crack open the 100% carbon-neutral, biodegradable packaging.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:35 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:35 PM on July 22, 2009
Oh, now I get it - all of those plant closings in China are just eco-friendly "catch and release" factory staffing!
posted by XMLicious at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by XMLicious at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2009
The happy, fairly-remunerated workers will be housed in Cadbury village accomodation and you can watch them sing in their work via webcams mounted over the assembly line.
You've been watching Toys again, haven't you?
posted by hippybear at 4:31 PM on July 22, 2009
You've been watching Toys again, haven't you?
posted by hippybear at 4:31 PM on July 22, 2009
My point is that
...there seems to be no way in which you cannot insert yourself as the defnder of Apple, as Pogo so amusingly noted.
posted by rodgerd at 4:53 PM on July 22, 2009
...there seems to be no way in which you cannot insert yourself as the defnder of Apple, as Pogo so amusingly noted.
posted by rodgerd at 4:53 PM on July 22, 2009
Late to the thread, but holy shit, poor kid.
I know a guy who worked for a Symbian development firm, here in London. They were allowed to sign out the Nokia prototypes they had for testing until one of them took one out to the pub, got pissed and left it on the table when he went to the loo. Of course it got stolen, and the only consequence was that they weren't allowed to sign out any prototypes for testing any more. That's it. The dude kept his job, didn't even get a warning, and still works for the company. The phone was released on schedule, two years after it was stolen.
.
posted by goo at 5:38 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
I know a guy who worked for a Symbian development firm, here in London. They were allowed to sign out the Nokia prototypes they had for testing until one of them took one out to the pub, got pissed and left it on the table when he went to the loo. Of course it got stolen, and the only consequence was that they weren't allowed to sign out any prototypes for testing any more. That's it. The dude kept his job, didn't even get a warning, and still works for the company. The phone was released on schedule, two years after it was stolen.
.
posted by goo at 5:38 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
hippybear
& i_am_joe's_spleen: "The happy, fairly-remunerated workers will be housed in Cadbury village accomodation and you can watch them sing in their work via webcams mounted over the assembly line.
You've been watching Toys again, haven't you?"
Naw, I think he was just shopping for a new Prius.
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on July 22, 2009
& i_am_joe's_spleen: "The happy, fairly-remunerated workers will be housed in Cadbury village accomodation and you can watch them sing in their work via webcams mounted over the assembly line.
You've been watching Toys again, haven't you?"
Naw, I think he was just shopping for a new Prius.
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on July 22, 2009
Seriously, though... if this guy "lost" a prototype, the odds are pretty good that he sold it / stole it.
Did he jump because he was raked over the coals by his employer... or because of the disgrace of his behavior, how he was going to lose everything he owned, bring shame on his family... and how his employer -- quite rightly -- was going to fire him?
What do you think would happen to you over here if you "lost" the next-gen iPhone?! Would it be that different, really?
posted by markkraft at 9:41 PM on July 22, 2009
Did he jump because he was raked over the coals by his employer... or because of the disgrace of his behavior, how he was going to lose everything he owned, bring shame on his family... and how his employer -- quite rightly -- was going to fire him?
What do you think would happen to you over here if you "lost" the next-gen iPhone?! Would it be that different, really?
posted by markkraft at 9:41 PM on July 22, 2009
Yeah, i'm pretty sure things would be pretty different over here. I also love your ultra orientalized view of China.
This comment has disgraced my family. I will now kill myself.
posted by chunking express at 9:47 PM on July 22, 2009
This comment has disgraced my family. I will now kill myself.
posted by chunking express at 9:47 PM on July 22, 2009
And now I am dead.
posted by chunking express at 9:48 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by chunking express at 9:48 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Great. Who will write the obit post for chunking express?
.
posted by hippybear at 9:56 PM on July 22, 2009
.
posted by hippybear at 9:56 PM on July 22, 2009
He was apparently beaten up, and his apartment was searched. Not cool at all, but not particularly unusual, globally speaking.
It seems a real stretch to theorize that they would interrogate him, search his place, leave him alone for several hours... and return later to throw him out the window.
FoxConn's CEO has made it clear that any employee found to have abused him will be suspended and face criminal charges. That, to me, seems pretty fair.
What doesn't seem fair is to blame Apple for being angry that a firm they hired lost one of their prototypes. Why shouldn't they be angry? Do you really think that Apple said "beat him up", or that his place should be searched by anyone other than police?
posted by markkraft at 10:20 PM on July 22, 2009
It seems a real stretch to theorize that they would interrogate him, search his place, leave him alone for several hours... and return later to throw him out the window.
FoxConn's CEO has made it clear that any employee found to have abused him will be suspended and face criminal charges. That, to me, seems pretty fair.
What doesn't seem fair is to blame Apple for being angry that a firm they hired lost one of their prototypes. Why shouldn't they be angry? Do you really think that Apple said "beat him up", or that his place should be searched by anyone other than police?
posted by markkraft at 10:20 PM on July 22, 2009
Again, that seems to have a lot to do with the nature of China's government, but not a lot to do, per se, with the "logic of global capitalism." There's no inherent connection between a low-wage, high-growth economy and a corrupt and underdeveloped legal system. China had a corrupt and pusillanimous legal system long before it hopped on the global capitalism gravy train.
Again - missing the point. The argument was presented up thread that it was demand from consumers in the West that had sent manufacturing to countries like China - my contention is that no, it was the pursuit of better profit margins. China offered a stable polity with a "disciplined" and educated labour force and a "good business environment" and was the preferred choice for those reasons. Have a look at the figures for FDI in recent years. That "good business environment" included the lack of free trade unions and local government bending over backwards and bending the law to assist investors.
posted by Abiezer at 11:56 PM on July 22, 2009
Again - missing the point. The argument was presented up thread that it was demand from consumers in the West that had sent manufacturing to countries like China - my contention is that no, it was the pursuit of better profit margins. China offered a stable polity with a "disciplined" and educated labour force and a "good business environment" and was the preferred choice for those reasons. Have a look at the figures for FDI in recent years. That "good business environment" included the lack of free trade unions and local government bending over backwards and bending the law to assist investors.
posted by Abiezer at 11:56 PM on July 22, 2009
I suppose that the Asian culture of responsibility and shame is as valid an explanation of this suicide as any other, but has nobody even raised the question of murder? As in, the security blokes tossed him off the roof?
This was my assumption of what happened too, and seems to be fairly widely shared here.
posted by Abiezer at 11:57 PM on July 22, 2009
This was my assumption of what happened too, and seems to be fairly widely shared here.
posted by Abiezer at 11:57 PM on July 22, 2009
I know a guy who worked for a Symbian development firm, here in London.
Man oh man did I read that wrong the first time around.
posted by Spatch at 5:36 AM on July 23, 2009
Man oh man did I read that wrong the first time around.
posted by Spatch at 5:36 AM on July 23, 2009
I suppose that the Asian culture of responsibility and shame is as valid an explanation of this suicide as any other
There's a lot of Orientalism in this thread. People commit suicide because of work pressures all over the world (even inside Apple, as my link shows), but there seems to be an undercurrent of "well, this would never happen where I work, it must be because he's [other]". I don't think that's true.
It's hard to find out exactly what Dayong actually did, but I'm presuming it wasn't factory-floor level grunt-work, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take iPhones away to lose, and Foxconn would more clearly be talking about theft. So rising young worker makes career-killing mistake, and under appalling pressure from company, takes his own life. This happens everywhere (even at Cupertino, as my last link showed).
Asian culture has little to do with it, other than the fact that "appalling pressure" here took the form of beatings, whereas Western firms stick more to psychological abuse.
posted by fightorflight at 5:51 AM on July 23, 2009
There's a lot of Orientalism in this thread. People commit suicide because of work pressures all over the world (even inside Apple, as my link shows), but there seems to be an undercurrent of "well, this would never happen where I work, it must be because he's [other]". I don't think that's true.
It's hard to find out exactly what Dayong actually did, but I'm presuming it wasn't factory-floor level grunt-work, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take iPhones away to lose, and Foxconn would more clearly be talking about theft. So rising young worker makes career-killing mistake, and under appalling pressure from company, takes his own life. This happens everywhere (even at Cupertino, as my last link showed).
Asian culture has little to do with it, other than the fact that "appalling pressure" here took the form of beatings, whereas Western firms stick more to psychological abuse.
posted by fightorflight at 5:51 AM on July 23, 2009
rather it had to do with Apple's secrecy fetish.
Apple's not the only one. Harley forbids the employees from going to bars or other places with the test bikes/next years models would sit outside due to the trade rags being able to snap pics.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:30 AM on July 23, 2009
Apple's not the only one. Harley forbids the employees from going to bars or other places with the test bikes/next years models would sit outside due to the trade rags being able to snap pics.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:30 AM on July 23, 2009
The dude kept his job, didn't even get a warning, and still works for the company. The phone was released on schedule, two years after it was stolen.
Two weeks is not a big deal. By that time the product has already been announced, specs have been released, outside people are getting samples to review, etc. Where I work a lot of people casually "borrow" protos earlier than that to start using as their personal phones. What is a big deal, and was certainly the case with these iPhones, is when a very early prototype that practically no one outside of the dev team knows any details about gets leaked. Where I work you get searched on the way in and on the way out if you even want to be in the same room as some of the earliest prototypes.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:04 AM on July 23, 2009
Two weeks is not a big deal. By that time the product has already been announced, specs have been released, outside people are getting samples to review, etc. Where I work a lot of people casually "borrow" protos earlier than that to start using as their personal phones. What is a big deal, and was certainly the case with these iPhones, is when a very early prototype that practically no one outside of the dev team knows any details about gets leaked. Where I work you get searched on the way in and on the way out if you even want to be in the same room as some of the earliest prototypes.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:04 AM on July 23, 2009
Asian culture has little to do with it, other than the fact that "appalling pressure" here took the form of beatings, whereas Western firms stick more to psychological abuse.
Even that strikes me as a law enforcement issue more than a cultural one.
"The West" has a long history of bosses beating and killing workers when they think the law will look the other way. If Western firms stick to psychological abuse these days, it's because they fear prosecution, not because of a cultural commitment to nonviolence.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:14 AM on July 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Even that strikes me as a law enforcement issue more than a cultural one.
"The West" has a long history of bosses beating and killing workers when they think the law will look the other way. If Western firms stick to psychological abuse these days, it's because they fear prosecution, not because of a cultural commitment to nonviolence.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:14 AM on July 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
I don't see how it could be Fake Steve's Direct responsibility.
posted by delmoi at 4:33 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by delmoi at 4:33 PM on July 23, 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/technology/companies/27apple.html
"Soon after, in the early-morning hours of July 16, Mr. Sun apparently jumped to his death from the 12th floor of an apartment building in what his employer, Foxconn Technology, says was a suicide."
That is some parsed copy.
posted by mwhybark at 11:13 PM on July 26, 2009
"Soon after, in the early-morning hours of July 16, Mr. Sun apparently jumped to his death from the 12th floor of an apartment building in what his employer, Foxconn Technology, says was a suicide."
That is some parsed copy.
posted by mwhybark at 11:13 PM on July 26, 2009
Two weeks is not a big deal
Two years, burnmp3s. It was an early prototype, and there were no repercussions from Nokia for the employee or the development house. It would have been buggy as hell, so the speculation is that the thief thought it was broken and didn't even realise it was a prototype.
posted by goo at 11:12 AM on July 29, 2009
Two years, burnmp3s. It was an early prototype, and there were no repercussions from Nokia for the employee or the development house. It would have been buggy as hell, so the speculation is that the thief thought it was broken and didn't even realise it was a prototype.
posted by goo at 11:12 AM on July 29, 2009
Oops, bad reading comprehension. Yeah, that would pretty much get you instantly fired where I work.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:21 AM on July 29, 2009
posted by burnmp3s at 11:21 AM on July 29, 2009
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posted by chunking express at 9:05 AM on July 22, 2009