Transgender library worker files lawsuit
November 5, 2009 11:29 AM Subscribe
Bobbie E. Burnett is suing her employers, the Free Library of Philadelphia, for discrimination. She's been employed there for nearly 20 years, but transitioned to a female gender identity in 2001, at which point she says discrimination set in.
"Slurs hurled at Burnett by some staffers include 'freak,' 'man in woman’s clothing' and 'nigger,' according to the suit. On one occasion, when Burnett expressed wishes for a nice weekend to a coworker, the employee responded with, 'Burn in hell,' according to the lawsuit."
Last year, the Library of Congress lost a lawsuit against a trans person over a job offer. LoC "claimed at trial that transgender people are not covered under federal anti-discrimination laws". The American Library Association has an active GLBT Round Table, but it can still be difficult to find trans information in libraries. Many universities have special resource pages instructing library patrons in searching for GLBT info, because "transgender" isn't a LoC Subject heading. Users need to search for "transsexuals" or "hermaphroditism" instead of "intersex".
Last year, the Library of Congress lost a lawsuit against a trans person over a job offer. LoC "claimed at trial that transgender people are not covered under federal anti-discrimination laws". The American Library Association has an active GLBT Round Table, but it can still be difficult to find trans information in libraries. Many universities have special resource pages instructing library patrons in searching for GLBT info, because "transgender" isn't a LoC Subject heading. Users need to search for "transsexuals" or "hermaphroditism" instead of "intersex".
Actually, Astro Zombie, weird though that sounds, there are a lot of people who would be afraid to hurl racist slurs at a man but who feel confident doing so when the target is a woman.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:34 AM on November 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:34 AM on November 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
Actually, Astro Zombie, weird though that sounds, there are a lot of people who would be afraid to hurl racist slurs at a man but who feel confident doing so when the target is a woman.
Ugh. My view of humanity, already dim, just got bleaker.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:37 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ugh. My view of humanity, already dim, just got bleaker.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:37 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
I hope she cleans out what's left of the city coffers. That behavior is unacceptable. Let the city's many bigots enjoy less police protection, less library, fewer trash pickups as fair recompense for their behavior.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:37 AM on November 5, 2009
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:37 AM on November 5, 2009
On one occasion, when Burnett expressed wishes for a nice weekend to a coworker, the employee responded with, 'Burn in hell,' according to the lawsuit.
Seriously? How does a person even get to the point of being about to say that and not think, whether for moral, practical or legal reasons, that it would be a bad idea?
posted by DU at 11:45 AM on November 5, 2009
Seriously? How does a person even get to the point of being about to say that and not think, whether for moral, practical or legal reasons, that it would be a bad idea?
posted by DU at 11:45 AM on November 5, 2009
when Burnett expressed wishes for a nice weekend to a coworker, the employee responded with, 'Burn in hell,'
Man, we consider that workplace pleasantries here...
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:46 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Man, we consider that workplace pleasantries here...
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:46 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Concidentally, this story appeared in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution. It is a must-read for the hilarious deposition outtakes, such as:
“I think some members of the legislature would view that taking place in our office as perhaps immoral, perhaps unnatural, and perhaps, if you will, liberal or ultra-liberal,”
posted by dortmunder at 11:46 AM on November 5, 2009
“I think some members of the legislature would view that taking place in our office as perhaps immoral, perhaps unnatural, and perhaps, if you will, liberal or ultra-liberal,”
posted by dortmunder at 11:46 AM on November 5, 2009
What the fuck is the matter with people? I think or say this at least once a day, it seems, but really, what the fuck is the matter with people who are allegedly adults and professionals that they think it's okay to treat a co-worker (or anyone) this way?
posted by rtha at 11:48 AM on November 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by rtha at 11:48 AM on November 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
Printer friendly version of the main link. The one not-blocked ad I saw had some shirtless dude on it...
posted by JohnFredra at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009
posted by JohnFredra at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009
For me, this was even more sad and startling than what happened in Maine. As a librarian, I see so many awesome library people and like to sort of think that librarians/library workers are progressive and liberal-minded and generally wonderful people. Many of them are, but this story was a sad wake-up call for me that it's not a universal principal.
posted by booknerd at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by booknerd at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
Man, we consider that workplace pleasantries here...
Actually, that's how Mrs U and I part company pretty often.
Me: Well, I'm off to work. So I guess I'll...see you in hell.
Her: OK, see you in hell!
I don't even remember when or why we started that.
posted by DU at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
Actually, that's how Mrs U and I part company pretty often.
Me: Well, I'm off to work. So I guess I'll...see you in hell.
Her: OK, see you in hell!
I don't even remember when or why we started that.
posted by DU at 11:49 AM on November 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
We recently addressed something like this in a class I'm taking. We had a guest speaker who gave us examples of all the crazy personnel management issues that she'd gone through over the years.
In one case she had a male worker who started wearing make-up, using the women's restroom, etc. Eventually he approached her to ask if he could start wearing women's clothing to work. When she requested our thoughts on the matter, I suggested diversity training.
She said that wasn't a wrong answer, but I believe her response was along the lines of "If you present me with a Doctor's Note saying that you're going through gender reassignment and that now is the time for you to start doing wearing women's clothing, then fine. Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one."
That struck me as a great way to handle her particular problem, but not really addressing the possible workplace impacts gender reassignment (or even the mild cross-dressing) can have.
posted by sciurus at 11:50 AM on November 5, 2009
In one case she had a male worker who started wearing make-up, using the women's restroom, etc. Eventually he approached her to ask if he could start wearing women's clothing to work. When she requested our thoughts on the matter, I suggested diversity training.
She said that wasn't a wrong answer, but I believe her response was along the lines of "If you present me with a Doctor's Note saying that you're going through gender reassignment and that now is the time for you to start doing wearing women's clothing, then fine. Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one."
That struck me as a great way to handle her particular problem, but not really addressing the possible workplace impacts gender reassignment (or even the mild cross-dressing) can have.
posted by sciurus at 11:50 AM on November 5, 2009
I hope she cleans out what's left of the city coffers. That behavior is unacceptable. Let the city's many bigots enjoy less police protection, less library, fewer trash pickups as fair recompense for their behavior.
Um... while I fully support her right to sue, and seek punitive damages for, utterly unacceptable disgusting behavior, can we please refrain from eagerly promoting the loss of vital municipal services for the people who depend on them? I don't think I count bigots among my friends, and I think our trash could use picking up too.
posted by Tomorrowful at 11:51 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Um... while I fully support her right to sue, and seek punitive damages for, utterly unacceptable disgusting behavior, can we please refrain from eagerly promoting the loss of vital municipal services for the people who depend on them? I don't think I count bigots among my friends, and I think our trash could use picking up too.
posted by Tomorrowful at 11:51 AM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
So this isn't cool. But it can be weird to work with someone going through this sort of reassignment.
I once worked a tradeshow where a man, dressed as a woman, came to the booth and was asking me questions. I'm certainly too polite and/or socially awkward to say anything but I have to be honest: it was uncomfortable talking to a man - and there was no doubt it was a man - dressed in a skirt, blouse and women's shoes. In my defense, this was the first time I had ever met someone who did this, much less had to talk to them at a trade show.
Another time I reconnected with an old high-school acquaintance at a work conference and much to my surprise, he had become a woman. That was for some reason less weird to me than a man simply dressing as a woman in public. Anyway, we had a nice lunch together and caught up.
So I am sympathetic to these people insofar as it can be awkward, uncomfortable and even upsetting to work with someone who is openly breaking their perception of social norms. I am not at all sympathetic to idiotic stuff like insulting and harassing the person and worrying about catching their cooties.
posted by GuyZero at 11:58 AM on November 5, 2009
I once worked a tradeshow where a man, dressed as a woman, came to the booth and was asking me questions. I'm certainly too polite and/or socially awkward to say anything but I have to be honest: it was uncomfortable talking to a man - and there was no doubt it was a man - dressed in a skirt, blouse and women's shoes. In my defense, this was the first time I had ever met someone who did this, much less had to talk to them at a trade show.
Another time I reconnected with an old high-school acquaintance at a work conference and much to my surprise, he had become a woman. That was for some reason less weird to me than a man simply dressing as a woman in public. Anyway, we had a nice lunch together and caught up.
So I am sympathetic to these people insofar as it can be awkward, uncomfortable and even upsetting to work with someone who is openly breaking their perception of social norms. I am not at all sympathetic to idiotic stuff like insulting and harassing the person and worrying about catching their cooties.
posted by GuyZero at 11:58 AM on November 5, 2009
I hope she cleans out what's left of the city coffers. That behavior is unacceptable. Let the city's many bigots enjoy less police protection, less library, fewer trash pickups as fair recompense for their behavior.
Um. you are aware that the city's many non-bigots would suffer these consequences just as badly, yes? And that wishing ill upon an entire city because of the actions of a few is kind of a mirror-image of the kind of hatred exhibited by the morons at the library? and, frankly, idiotic?
Unless Philly has some sort of bigot-specific trash collection service of which I am unaware.
(Garbage goes in the white receptacle. recyclables, IN THE OTHER WHITE RECEPTACLE)
posted by ScotchRox at 11:59 AM on November 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
Um. you are aware that the city's many non-bigots would suffer these consequences just as badly, yes? And that wishing ill upon an entire city because of the actions of a few is kind of a mirror-image of the kind of hatred exhibited by the morons at the library? and, frankly, idiotic?
Unless Philly has some sort of bigot-specific trash collection service of which I am unaware.
(Garbage goes in the white receptacle. recyclables, IN THE OTHER WHITE RECEPTACLE)
posted by ScotchRox at 11:59 AM on November 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
Re: Dortmunder's AJC link.
It's interesting that the article followed the employee's pronoun preferences, but continued to refer to her by her male name, Glenn. It gave Vandy Beth as her new name, so why not just stick with that?
In one case she had a male worker who started wearing make-up, using the women's restroom, etc. Eventually he approached her to ask if he could start wearing women's clothing to work. When she requested our thoughts on the matter, I suggested diversity training.
She said that wasn't a wrong answer, but I believe her response was along the lines of "If you present me with a Doctor's Note saying that you're going through gender reassignment and that now is the time for you to start doing wearing women's clothing, then fine. Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one."
Wouldn't it seem more jarring to have a male-sex person wearing make-up and dressed as a man using the women's restroom, than to have a male-sex person fully expressing female gender using the women's restroom?
And wouldn't everything be easier if we just had unisex restrooms?
posted by HotPants at 12:00 PM on November 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
It's interesting that the article followed the employee's pronoun preferences, but continued to refer to her by her male name, Glenn. It gave Vandy Beth as her new name, so why not just stick with that?
In one case she had a male worker who started wearing make-up, using the women's restroom, etc. Eventually he approached her to ask if he could start wearing women's clothing to work. When she requested our thoughts on the matter, I suggested diversity training.
She said that wasn't a wrong answer, but I believe her response was along the lines of "If you present me with a Doctor's Note saying that you're going through gender reassignment and that now is the time for you to start doing wearing women's clothing, then fine. Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one."
Wouldn't it seem more jarring to have a male-sex person wearing make-up and dressed as a man using the women's restroom, than to have a male-sex person fully expressing female gender using the women's restroom?
And wouldn't everything be easier if we just had unisex restrooms?
posted by HotPants at 12:00 PM on November 5, 2009 [4 favorites]
The underlying notion that this type of discrimination only happens in isolated locales or in specific places that can be labelled other -- Maine! Philadelphia! -- is sort of odd. It happens everywhere. I sincerely doubt that there are more (or fewer) bigots of this kind in Philadelphia than most other large cities in the United States. Here's a recent example from Atlanta. (Georgia State Legislative Counsel Sewell Brumby: "I think it’s unsettling to think of someone dressed in women’s clothing with male sexual organs inside that clothing.”)
I agree with Tomorrowful that wishing the loss of municipal services on any city, however bigoted some of its inhabitants might be, is not exactly a promising road to go down.
And yes, booknerd does have a point about the findability of trans materials in many libraries (which goes hand in hand with the availability of published trans materials). Thank you for posting the UC Berkeley Library's resource guide, which is a particularly strong one.
posted by blucevalo at 12:01 PM on November 5, 2009
I agree with Tomorrowful that wishing the loss of municipal services on any city, however bigoted some of its inhabitants might be, is not exactly a promising road to go down.
And yes, booknerd does have a point about the findability of trans materials in many libraries (which goes hand in hand with the availability of published trans materials). Thank you for posting the UC Berkeley Library's resource guide, which is a particularly strong one.
posted by blucevalo at 12:01 PM on November 5, 2009
Man, I was just waxing nostalgic about Philly yesterday and now this. As a native son, lemme just say fuck yunz.
posted by boo_radley at 12:01 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by boo_radley at 12:01 PM on November 5, 2009
Whoops, I didn't realize I was re-posting dortmunder's link. Sorry about that.
posted by blucevalo at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by blucevalo at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009
Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one.
Dear god, what if my boss finds out I'm not really a brunette!
I'm not trying to make light of the horrible discrimination against people who are transgendered. It seems really misguided to assume that someone is "just cross-dressing" up to and until the point that they have GRS. And to ask for a doctor's note to "prove" that someone has a matching set of genitals and gender markers seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
posted by muddgirl at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Dear god, what if my boss finds out I'm not really a brunette!
I'm not trying to make light of the horrible discrimination against people who are transgendered. It seems really misguided to assume that someone is "just cross-dressing" up to and until the point that they have GRS. And to ask for a doctor's note to "prove" that someone has a matching set of genitals and gender markers seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
posted by muddgirl at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
dortmunder, that story is both terrible and hilarious.
"It makes me think about things I don’t like to think about, particularly at work..."
It's not just that one is forced to think about difficult things, but forced to do so at work? That seems... liberal. Un-American! It's not right, is all. It'd be one thing if it were just immoral or even unnatural, of course. Thank the stars he's not in a position to deal with difficult and thought-provoking issues, such as Legislative Counsel for the State of Geor... oh.
I seem to be swearing at people a lot this week, which is not really elevating the discourse, I know, but all of these people can go fuck themselves.
posted by Errant at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009
"It makes me think about things I don’t like to think about, particularly at work..."
It's not just that one is forced to think about difficult things, but forced to do so at work? That seems... liberal. Un-American! It's not right, is all. It'd be one thing if it were just immoral or even unnatural, of course. Thank the stars he's not in a position to deal with difficult and thought-provoking issues, such as Legislative Counsel for the State of Geor... oh.
I seem to be swearing at people a lot this week, which is not really elevating the discourse, I know, but all of these people can go fuck themselves.
posted by Errant at 12:02 PM on November 5, 2009
blucevalo: "The underlying notion that this type of discrimination only happens in isolated locales or in specific places that can be labelled other"
What the hell does this mean? I don't think of Philadelphia or Maine as "other" and I lived in one. How is a major metro area "isolated"? Or an entire state, for that matter?
posted by boo_radley at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2009
What the hell does this mean? I don't think of Philadelphia or Maine as "other" and I lived in one. How is a major metro area "isolated"? Or an entire state, for that matter?
posted by boo_radley at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2009
Um. you are aware that the city's many non-bigots would suffer these consequences just as badly, yes?
Every time the city's many non-bigots hear some asshole call someone else a "fag" or otherwise, I hope that person gets dealt with by non-bigots appropriately, when those "few" bigots hurt everyone else. It's time for the "many" non-bigots to step up and shut that down. Or they get used to chasing the rats out of their three- and four-week old garbage on the street corner. Time to set priorities about how to treat your fellow human beings.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:08 PM on November 5, 2009
Every time the city's many non-bigots hear some asshole call someone else a "fag" or otherwise, I hope that person gets dealt with by non-bigots appropriately, when those "few" bigots hurt everyone else. It's time for the "many" non-bigots to step up and shut that down. Or they get used to chasing the rats out of their three- and four-week old garbage on the street corner. Time to set priorities about how to treat your fellow human beings.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:08 PM on November 5, 2009
Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one.
That strikes me as a horrendous way to handle her particular non-problem. What in heck does "hired as a man" mean? If you're a man hired as something other than a porn star, then making your penis central to your job probably means you're doing it wrong.
Sheesh, I'm glad I work somewhere where it would never occur to anyone to ask the boss for permission to wear a dress.
posted by Zed at 12:09 PM on November 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
That strikes me as a horrendous way to handle her particular non-problem. What in heck does "hired as a man" mean? If you're a man hired as something other than a porn star, then making your penis central to your job probably means you're doing it wrong.
Sheesh, I'm glad I work somewhere where it would never occur to anyone to ask the boss for permission to wear a dress.
posted by Zed at 12:09 PM on November 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
That strikes me as a horrendous way to handle her particular non-problem.
Yeah, I agree. What do I care if the guy is wearing makeup and dresses whatever he was "hired as".
Using the women's restroom, though...that's a problem. Not because I (the hypothetical employer) care but because at least one of the women that use that restroom are going to complain. And then what do I do?
posted by DU at 12:12 PM on November 5, 2009
Yeah, I agree. What do I care if the guy is wearing makeup and dresses whatever he was "hired as".
Using the women's restroom, though...that's a problem. Not because I (the hypothetical employer) care but because at least one of the women that use that restroom are going to complain. And then what do I do?
posted by DU at 12:12 PM on November 5, 2009
Georgia State Legislative Counsel Sewell Brumby: "I think it’s unsettling to think of someone dressed in women’s clothing with male sexual organs inside that clothing.”)
My first thought when I read that quote was that Mr. Brumby had, at some point, had a Lola experience.
posted by dortmunder at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2009
My first thought when I read that quote was that Mr. Brumby had, at some point, had a Lola experience.
posted by dortmunder at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2009
DU - it's really, usually, not a problem at all, especially with diversity awareness training.
After all, it's not "a man wearing make-up and using the woman's restroom". It is "a woman using the woman's restroom".
posted by muddgirl at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2009
After all, it's not "a man wearing make-up and using the woman's restroom". It is "a woman using the woman's restroom".
posted by muddgirl at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2009
And what do y'all think we're doing in there, that it's a problem for transwomen to use a woman's restroom but not transmen to use a man's restroom?
Women walk in. They use a private stall with a lock on it. They wash their hands and leave.
posted by muddgirl at 12:22 PM on November 5, 2009
Women walk in. They use a private stall with a lock on it. They wash their hands and leave.
posted by muddgirl at 12:22 PM on November 5, 2009
Printer friendly version of the main link. The one not-blocked ad I saw had some shirtless dude on it...
posted by JohnFredra at 7:49 PM on November 5 [+] [!]
It's worse than that... that dude used to be a dudette. Them's some freakish non-tittie that we're being exposed to! Won't somebody, etc, etc...
posted by twine42 at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by JohnFredra at 7:49 PM on November 5 [+] [!]
It's worse than that... that dude used to be a dudette. Them's some freakish non-tittie that we're being exposed to! Won't somebody, etc, etc...
posted by twine42 at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2009
This issue is currently being taken up by the senate. Language in the current Emplopyee Non-Discrimination Act may be changed to also protect against discrimination based on an employees "actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity" A transgender advocacy organization in MA has been encouraging people to call their senators and ask them to support this bill -- I would encourage you to do the same!
posted by cubby at 12:27 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by cubby at 12:27 PM on November 5, 2009
She said that wasn't a wrong answer, but I believe her response was along the lines of "If you present me with a Doctor's Note saying that you're going through gender reassignment and that now is the time for you to start doing wearing women's clothing, then fine. Until then, however, you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one."
HOLY FUCKING SHIT that answer is crap and would get anyone sued six ways to Sunday in many US states.
I hope your employers didn't pay this "guest speaker" any money whatsoever, because giving people outrageous misinformation about sensitive HR management topics would be bad enough for free.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:32 PM on November 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
HOLY FUCKING SHIT that answer is crap and would get anyone sued six ways to Sunday in many US states.
I hope your employers didn't pay this "guest speaker" any money whatsoever, because giving people outrageous misinformation about sensitive HR management topics would be bad enough for free.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:32 PM on November 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
when Burnett expressed wishes for a nice weekend to a coworker, the employee responded with, 'Burn in hell,'
In fairness, this is Philly we're talking about here.
posted by adamrice at 12:39 PM on November 5, 2009
In fairness, this is Philly we're talking about here.
posted by adamrice at 12:39 PM on November 5, 2009
The part that really hits me is the "didn't want to touch things she touched" line. ... it's just one of those tragic signs of how no matter how much you think otherwise there's just a shitload of ignorant people in this country.
Except Even people who work in libraries.
Sigh.
posted by scratch at 12:46 PM on November 5, 2009
Sigh.
posted by scratch at 12:46 PM on November 5, 2009
I know we've got this 'meanest city in america' reputation going on, but please don't kick us when we're down. We lost the series AND are experiencing a transit strike. There's a lot of sad sports fans with sore feet on the sidewalks today.
That said, I am hugely disappointed in the Free Library for being so extraordinarily lame on this one. I've been a patron and sponsor of the library for years. They just sent me a donation request this week. I think I'll send them a letter explaining why I am not donating this year. Thanks for the heads up, booknerd.
posted by 8dot3 at 12:49 PM on November 5, 2009
That said, I am hugely disappointed in the Free Library for being so extraordinarily lame on this one. I've been a patron and sponsor of the library for years. They just sent me a donation request this week. I think I'll send them a letter explaining why I am not donating this year. Thanks for the heads up, booknerd.
posted by 8dot3 at 12:49 PM on November 5, 2009
Georgia State Legislative Counsel Sewell Brumby: "I think it’s unsettling to think of someone dressed in women’s clothing with male sexual organs inside that clothing.”
That's so...odd. It's never occurred to me to think about what sexual organs my co-workers have under their clothing.
posted by rtha at 12:51 PM on November 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
That's so...odd. It's never occurred to me to think about what sexual organs my co-workers have under their clothing.
posted by rtha at 12:51 PM on November 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
HOLY FUCKING SHIT that answer is crap and would get anyone sued six ways to Sunday in many US states.
Can you explain why?
Not disagreeing, but it seemed a reasonable way to distinguish between people with odd, but strong, clothing preferences and people with something like a medical need, so I'm curious why it's not.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:53 PM on November 5, 2009
Can you explain why?
Not disagreeing, but it seemed a reasonable way to distinguish between people with odd, but strong, clothing preferences and people with something like a medical need, so I'm curious why it's not.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:53 PM on November 5, 2009
Not disagreeing, but it seemed a reasonable way to distinguish between people with odd, but strong, clothing preferences
A person who self-identifies as a man who wears women's clothing (a la Eddie Izzard) is a man, and thus should not be using the women's restroom.
A person who self-identifies as a woman shouldn't have someone in HR say "You need to bring a doctor's note" in a scolding, punitive way.
The right answer would be "If you are in the process of gender transition, we will need to figure out the right way for all of us to handle this and support you throughout the process. If you are self-identifying as male, it is not appropriate for you to use the women's room."
There are good resources out there for managing gender transitions in the workplace.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:59 PM on November 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
A person who self-identifies as a man who wears women's clothing (a la Eddie Izzard) is a man, and thus should not be using the women's restroom.
A person who self-identifies as a woman shouldn't have someone in HR say "You need to bring a doctor's note" in a scolding, punitive way.
The right answer would be "If you are in the process of gender transition, we will need to figure out the right way for all of us to handle this and support you throughout the process. If you are self-identifying as male, it is not appropriate for you to use the women's room."
There are good resources out there for managing gender transitions in the workplace.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:59 PM on November 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
The main problem here is the "doctor's note" business, and the "you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one" bit.
That's not cool. It's scolding and punitive and "you need a doctor's note" is a shitty way to manage that. Gender transition doesn't start in a doctor's office, for one thing.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2009
That's not cool. It's scolding and punitive and "you need a doctor's note" is a shitty way to manage that. Gender transition doesn't start in a doctor's office, for one thing.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2009
And wouldn't everything be easier if we just had unisex restrooms?
You know, I went to UC Santa Cruz in the 1970's when they had the unisex bathrooms in the dorms, and it sucked. As liberal as I consider myself to be, it was an idea that sounded good but didn't work out that well.
posted by chocolatetiara at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2009
You know, I went to UC Santa Cruz in the 1970's when they had the unisex bathrooms in the dorms, and it sucked. As liberal as I consider myself to be, it was an idea that sounded good but didn't work out that well.
posted by chocolatetiara at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2009
I'm surprised more cash-strap munipalities aren't encouraging more men to transition to women. This way they can pay less.
I kidd
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:08 PM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
I kidd
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:08 PM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
Can I ask why, chocolatetiara? I lived in dorms with co-ed bathrooms, and as long as the stalls and showers are appropriately designed (IE, not a long trough shower as was popular in the early days of dorm-building), it was never a problem.
It also depends, I suppose, on the number of residents per bathroom. We had 3-5 per one stall/shower and while scheduling was a problem, I don't recall any other issues.
posted by muddgirl at 1:09 PM on November 5, 2009
It also depends, I suppose, on the number of residents per bathroom. We had 3-5 per one stall/shower and while scheduling was a problem, I don't recall any other issues.
posted by muddgirl at 1:09 PM on November 5, 2009
Shy pooper.
We had one girl who didn't like the fact that I left my shower poof thing hanging on the shower head to dry out. But I think that would have been a problem in a unisex shower, too.
posted by muddgirl at 1:23 PM on November 5, 2009
We had one girl who didn't like the fact that I left my shower poof thing hanging on the shower head to dry out. But I think that would have been a problem in a unisex shower, too.
posted by muddgirl at 1:23 PM on November 5, 2009
Well, good for her. Nobody should have to endure that sort of treatment, especially from the so-called 'professionals' that they work with.
It makes me angry and impotently so, too. I have a friend who is going through this issue. Based on dictates from HR, they can't openly harass her, but they still find ways.
Yes, its strange and a bit uncomfortable at first, trying to find your way around how to deal with someone changing something that fundamental about themselves. But at the end of the day, we're all human beings. I don't fully understand the fear and thus loathing this provokes (or being attracted to the same sex, or both sexes). They're adults, its their bodies, their lives. Just treat human beings like human beings, with decency and respect. And that should cover it.
posted by sandraregina at 1:54 PM on November 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
It makes me angry and impotently so, too. I have a friend who is going through this issue. Based on dictates from HR, they can't openly harass her, but they still find ways.
Yes, its strange and a bit uncomfortable at first, trying to find your way around how to deal with someone changing something that fundamental about themselves. But at the end of the day, we're all human beings. I don't fully understand the fear and thus loathing this provokes (or being attracted to the same sex, or both sexes). They're adults, its their bodies, their lives. Just treat human beings like human beings, with decency and respect. And that should cover it.
posted by sandraregina at 1:54 PM on November 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's interesting that the article followed the employee's pronoun preferences, but continued to refer to her by her male name, Glenn. It gave Vandy Beth as her new name, so why not just stick with that?
Glenn is her surname.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:34 PM on November 5, 2009
Glenn is her surname.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:34 PM on November 5, 2009
I once worked for an agency and one of the long time employees transgendered from male to female.
Some of the staff went to management and raised a fuss when it came to the idea of her using "their" bathroom.
Their solution was to create a separate bathroom for this person to use all by herself in the basement.
posted by Tullyogallaghan at 2:49 PM on November 5, 2009
Some of the staff went to management and raised a fuss when it came to the idea of her using "their" bathroom.
Their solution was to create a separate bathroom for this person to use all by herself in the basement.
posted by Tullyogallaghan at 2:49 PM on November 5, 2009
This raises flags for me:
"Burnett suffers from clinical depression, allegedly due to her mistreatment at the Free Library, and she’s taken extended medical leaves to recover from the stress, according to the lawsuit."
Isn't one of the key points about clinical depression that it isn't caused by outside events? Not that this isn't really bad if it did happen exactly as presented, but we're taking that for granted, and maybe we shouldn't.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:55 PM on November 5, 2009
"Burnett suffers from clinical depression, allegedly due to her mistreatment at the Free Library, and she’s taken extended medical leaves to recover from the stress, according to the lawsuit."
Isn't one of the key points about clinical depression that it isn't caused by outside events? Not that this isn't really bad if it did happen exactly as presented, but we're taking that for granted, and maybe we shouldn't.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:55 PM on November 5, 2009
Mitrovarr - I'm not a lawyer, but this sort of language seems standard for a lawsuit that is claiming damages. The lawyer puts in pretty much everything with the hope that parts of it will stick.
posted by muddgirl at 3:10 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by muddgirl at 3:10 PM on November 5, 2009
Isn't one of the key points about clinical depression that it isn't caused by outside events?
No.
posted by Zed at 3:15 PM on November 5, 2009
No.
posted by Zed at 3:15 PM on November 5, 2009
Apparently it changed since I went to school. I'm pretty sure I remember it being thought of as clearly biochemical at the time.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:21 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:21 PM on November 5, 2009
Mitrovarr, clinical depression can be either endogenous or exogenous. Stress itself can trigger changes in brain biochemistry.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:38 PM on November 5, 2009
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:38 PM on November 5, 2009
“And wouldn't everything be easier if we just had unisex restrooms?”
Not for my co-workers. Not after chili night.
“Even people who work in libraries.”
Yeah, that’s the weird thing. You wouldn’t think libraries would have that kind of environment. So, where the hell’s the break even where people just leave other people be? Nutty.
Gas stations maybe. They seems pretty egalitarian. Not a lot of talking though so you can’t really tell. Boring. Which seems to be a plus. People don’t have time to give each other crap, just want to get in and out.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2009
Not for my co-workers. Not after chili night.
“Even people who work in libraries.”
Yeah, that’s the weird thing. You wouldn’t think libraries would have that kind of environment. So, where the hell’s the break even where people just leave other people be? Nutty.
Gas stations maybe. They seems pretty egalitarian. Not a lot of talking though so you can’t really tell. Boring. Which seems to be a plus. People don’t have time to give each other crap, just want to get in and out.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2009
Sidhedevil: Mitrovarr, clinical depression can be either endogenous or exogenous. Stress itself can trigger changes in brain biochemistry.
Yep, looks like it changed since I learned about it (or maybe I forgot that part.) I should have looked it up first, I guess.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:56 PM on November 5, 2009
Yep, looks like it changed since I learned about it (or maybe I forgot that part.) I should have looked it up first, I guess.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:56 PM on November 5, 2009
t was uncomfortable talking to a man - and there was no doubt it was a man - dressed in a skirt, blouse and women's shoes. In my defense, this was the first time I had ever met someone who did this, much less had to talk to them at a trade show.
This is very understandable! I remember this sort of thing full well, but you know, you can easily get used to it. I'm a very straight guy but at some point I had to realize that the idea of wearing woman's clothing isn't that weird - why not? And, good for you! in realizing where you were at, your discomfort, and not attributing it to a fault in your counterparty.(*)
What's weird to me is that I know a reasonable number of people who think it's fine to kill people because they have beliefs or a skin color that are different from theirs. I run into this quite a lot, and I see it in the newspapers every single day as they continue their rah-rah push for more war in the Middle and Far East. I hear this crap from all sorts of people, people on the internet, randoms I meet.
It's surprisingly easy to get over men dressed as ladies, or men wanting to have other men's penises in their anuses. But I'm 47 years old and yet every time I hear men wanting to propel pieces of lead into other people's bodies to stop them from living it makes me feel sick, even though I've been hearing it all my life.
(* - one of the nice things about cross-dressers is that if you tell them, "I'm terribly sorry, I'm having trouble knowing how to react to you since you're a man dressed as a woman," 95% of the time they'll be happy to give you friendly advice. Trust me, you won't get that nice response if you tell a Republican, "I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to react to someone who talks about killing Arabs like that.")
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:37 PM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
This is very understandable! I remember this sort of thing full well, but you know, you can easily get used to it. I'm a very straight guy but at some point I had to realize that the idea of wearing woman's clothing isn't that weird - why not? And, good for you! in realizing where you were at, your discomfort, and not attributing it to a fault in your counterparty.(*)
What's weird to me is that I know a reasonable number of people who think it's fine to kill people because they have beliefs or a skin color that are different from theirs. I run into this quite a lot, and I see it in the newspapers every single day as they continue their rah-rah push for more war in the Middle and Far East. I hear this crap from all sorts of people, people on the internet, randoms I meet.
It's surprisingly easy to get over men dressed as ladies, or men wanting to have other men's penises in their anuses. But I'm 47 years old and yet every time I hear men wanting to propel pieces of lead into other people's bodies to stop them from living it makes me feel sick, even though I've been hearing it all my life.
(* - one of the nice things about cross-dressers is that if you tell them, "I'm terribly sorry, I'm having trouble knowing how to react to you since you're a man dressed as a woman," 95% of the time they'll be happy to give you friendly advice. Trust me, you won't get that nice response if you tell a Republican, "I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to react to someone who talks about killing Arabs like that.")
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:37 PM on November 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
"you were hired as a man and should continue to present yourself as one..."
"I take it you wouldn't have hired me if you'd thought I was a woman at the time?"
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:33 AM on November 6, 2009
"I take it you wouldn't have hired me if you'd thought I was a woman at the time?"
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:33 AM on November 6, 2009
My partner transitioned F-to-M while working as a reference librarian at the State Library of Michigan. People were great about it; he had no troubles with supervisors or co-workers. I do think a supervisor made some kind of statement to everybody along the lines of, "officially, we're cool with this, so no shit, OK?" but he didn't think that had really been necessary.
It always frustrates me and makes me angry that it's not like that for everybody.
posted by not that girl at 2:22 AM on November 6, 2009
It always frustrates me and makes me angry that it's not like that for everybody.
posted by not that girl at 2:22 AM on November 6, 2009
I wonder if FTMs get the same amount of harassment at work as MTFs. My guess is no, because in my experience, FTMs are more passable in the early stages of transition, and it's socially acceptable for cis-women to wear pants and be more "masculine" whereas it's an extreme taboo for cis-men to wear feminine clothes. It really boils down to misogyny - it's cool and tough (and sometimes sexy) when a woman dresses like a guy, but it's wussy and weird when a man dresses like a woman.* Masculinity = step up, femininity = step down.
*(Yes, I know crossdressing is not the same thing as transsexuality, but they're often conflated in the mind of the general public.)
posted by desjardins at 7:05 AM on November 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
*(Yes, I know crossdressing is not the same thing as transsexuality, but they're often conflated in the mind of the general public.)
posted by desjardins at 7:05 AM on November 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
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I mean, what the fuck? If I change my gender, can I expect people to start calling me paddy and mick?
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:32 AM on November 5, 2009