Seeing the world through the eyes of Palestinians...
December 21, 2009 6:39 AM   Subscribe

Israeli government admits to illegal organ harvesting program. The admission comes on the heels of previous Israeli government denials and claims of anti-semitism, and is prompted by a report by Israel's Channel 2 (video in Hebrew and English), featuring an interview conducted in 2000 with Dr. Jehuda Hiss, the former head of Israel's forensic institute, in which he claimed workers harvested skin, corneas, heart valves, and bones from Palestinians, Israelis, and foreign workers without notification or consent. It appears that Hiss conducted the interview after he was made a scapegoat for the illegal program. Hiss has been subsequently silent, and it has has been speculated that he is being paid off, with the highest salary of any Israeli public sector employee.
posted by markkraft (53 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Seriously, if we're going to have a post about this it'd be nice to have it (a) not be from someone rarin' to go about it in the comments and (b) maybe not just some minimum number of hours after the last n were removed and blood is still hot. Someone less grindy give it a shot in a few days or something when it won't be more gas on a metacommentary fire. -- cortex



 
Just so y'all know there's already a MetaTalk discussion going on about this story prompted by an earlier deleted post on the same subject.
posted by Kattullus at 6:41 AM on December 21, 2009


This Jewish organ thieves problem must be really bad. I'm constantly reading about it.
posted by Joe Beese at 6:42 AM on December 21, 2009 [7 favorites]


Isn't this a threepeat?
posted by dortmunder at 6:43 AM on December 21, 2009


(Note.: I have absolutely no reason to believe the speculated rationale mentioned by the aforementioned site for why the Hiss has such a large salary. What interests me in this case isn't the speculation, but the unusually high salary itself, especially after years of scandal.
posted by markkraft at 6:44 AM on December 21, 2009


Also, I finally figured out why that Jewish girl was flirting with me the other night. A mixed drink wasn't the only thing she was after.
posted by dortmunder at 6:44 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


maybe she was after a person who understands the difference between Israelis and Jews
posted by criticalbill at 6:46 AM on December 21, 2009 [16 favorites]


I searched for a post about this, but there wasn't one, so... *shrug*

I didn't check MeTa, but I think the write-up I gave it is fair, and cites the actual interview in question.It would certainly be hard to question the facts presented, outside of the speculation on why the doctor is being paid so damn much, which I mentioned.
posted by markkraft at 6:47 AM on December 21, 2009


You know how Republicans called Democrats traitors because they didn't want to enter a needless war? And how (some) Democrats countered that the real traitors are the ones doing harm to our armed forces, treasury and image abroad by engaging in it?

Likewise, the people really doing harm to Israel are not the "anti-semites" (real or imagined) in the world.
posted by DU at 6:47 AM on December 21, 2009 [9 favorites]


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.
posted by Daddy-O at 6:49 AM on December 21, 2009 [2 favorites]


Organlegging. I guess Larry Niven was right.
posted by smoothvirus at 6:49 AM on December 21, 2009


Isn't this a threepeat?

Seriously, have a heart.
posted by gman at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


Dr Jehuda Hiss?

What, did his parents pick his name from an antisemitic book of pantomime villains or something?

I'd write something longer and more erudite on the actual post, but I'm guessing third time over this post is likely to last as long as snowflake in a firestorm.
posted by MuffinMan at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2009 [3 favorites]


Are you kidding, Daddy-O? If we thought US-funded healthcare was illegally harvesting organs, we'd just shrug or something?

I can see the universal Metafilter chorus now: "Oh, no big deal. They were dying anyway, who cares what their families think?"
posted by Malor at 6:51 AM on December 21, 2009


If we were harvesting Iraqi or Afghani organs it probably would be a big deal. Or if the Russians were harvested Georgian organs from those who died in that scuffle.

Also I'm not that familiar with Muslim burial practices, but I think having nothing inside when the body eventually gets returned is a bad thing.
posted by Allan Gordon at 6:52 AM on December 21, 2009


(Note.: I have absolutely no reason to believe the speculated rationale mentioned by the aforementioned site for why the Hiss has such a large salary. What interests me in this case isn't the speculation, but the unusually high salary itself, especially after years of scandal.

He's Elvis in time-travelling larval form? FFS, pull yourself together.
posted by hawthorne at 6:53 AM on December 21, 2009


Likewise, the people really doing harm to Israel are not the "anti-semites" (real or imagined) in the world.


Israel is it's own worst enemy. A den of thieves, so to speak. What can you expect from a corrupt institution/nation like that?
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:56 AM on December 21, 2009


"I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country."

Perhaps if it didn't involve the incredibly controversial idea of Israelis stealing organs from Palestinians, and the Israeli government didn't *LOUDLY* deny such a thing *AND* accuse the Swedes of anti-semitism, canceling a state visit just as Sweden became head of the EU, etc.

The simple fact is, Israelis have talked about organ theft for years, and Americans never heard about it, until Israel made a big, huge stink. We didn't read the Swedish article to find out, certainly. We found out because the Israeli government was so loud about their counterclaims of anti-semitism, to the point of causing an international incident.
posted by markkraft at 6:56 AM on December 21, 2009 [5 favorites]


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.

That's bullshit and you know it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:57 AM on December 21, 2009


Faint of Butt: "That's bullshit and you know it."

I don't know it.

And now that I notice the HURF DURF title of the post, I'm flagging this.
posted by Joe Beese at 6:59 AM on December 21, 2009


nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country

Not just any country!
posted by anthill at 7:01 AM on December 21, 2009


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.

The Alder Hey scandal.
posted by Electric Dragon at 7:01 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm not comfortable with the word "harvest" because it de-humanizes. Are the victims like wild-caught salmon and mushrooms?
posted by stbalbach at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2009


And not just once, but twice!
posted by anthill at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2009


Flack away, Joe. Flack away.
posted by markkraft at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2009


somewhat related
posted by Allan Gordon at 7:03 AM on December 21, 2009


My apologies for using the term "harvested". I initially used "organ stealing", but thought that wasn't "balanced" enough.

But apparently, "balanced" isn't balanced enough for some who prefer a permanent state of imbalance.
posted by markkraft at 7:05 AM on December 21, 2009


I heard the Israelis use the blood of christian children in their passover rites too.

Not sure why this isn't bigger news. I suspect conspiracy. Possibly of the papist variety; I've seen quite a few Portuguese around lately.
posted by aramaic at 7:05 AM on December 21, 2009


Illegal organ harvesting happens over and over again all over the world and rarely is discussed on MeFi. This story has now been posted three times in the blue. All three times the focus has not been on the horrors of illegal organ harvesting, but on the Israel and Palestinian angle.
posted by Daddy-O at 7:06 AM on December 21, 2009 [2 favorites]


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.

http://www.metafilter.com/47520/It-raises-many-difficult-ethical-issues
posted by prak at 7:06 AM on December 21, 2009 [2 favorites]


markkraft, as was pointed out in the article, and the previous deleted threads, the initial claims made by the Swedish newspaper was that Palestinians were being abducted, killed, and robbed of their organs by the Israelis. The latest revelation is that the doctors were robbing anyone who came through the morgue. The former is much worse than the latter, and requires a conspiracy orders of magnitude larger. Accusing the country of that kind of conspiracy requires more than an admission of the latter.

Basically, I fail to see how the denial of the former article was silly, when its claims are still unproven.
posted by FuManchu at 7:07 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.

I nearly posted about the pishtacos (no really, that's the name) killing Peruvians to sell their fat to the European cosmetic industry, but the whole thing seemed hoax-y.

It turns out the whole dismembered bodies hanging above buckets of rendered fat crime scene was set up by corrupt cops to cover up the cop's own extrajudicial murders.
posted by orthogonality at 7:07 AM on December 21, 2009


I'll bet nobody would notice it or bother making a post about it if it happened in some other country.

Interesting that anthill could easily find posts to counter this odd claim. Will we see a retraction, an apology, an admission of error? Hell no! Since this is an I/P thread, there are only well-ground axes. Personally, I found the links pretty interesting. I'd say they certainly sour my opinion of Israel - how could they not?
posted by billysumday at 7:08 AM on December 21, 2009


I still don't understand why the country of Israel is getting so mad at an article published by a privately owned newspaper company in Sweden.

I have no idea if the article is based on fact or fiction, but it seems like a strong response from Israel over something Sweden has no control over.
posted by Allan Gordon at 7:10 AM on December 21, 2009


markkraft: "But apparently, "balanced" isn't balanced enough for some who prefer a permanent state of imbalance."

Those dastardly "some"!

When will a strong leader rid us of this foul menace?
posted by Joe Beese at 7:11 AM on December 21, 2009


"the initial claims made by the Swedish newspaper was that Palestinians were being abducted, killed, and robbed of their organs by the Israelis"

That is not particularly far from the reality here, from a Palestinian perspective.

Someone gets wounded somewhere, perhaps without anyone else witnessing the incident. They get taken by IDF, disappear temporarily into the system, they die, their organs get harvested, and the body is returned to their family eventually, who wonder why they're missing parts.

From what I remember of the Swedish article, a lot of the cases cited were fairly old ones, though the implication was this practice could still be going on, especially in the wake of the rabbinical involvement in the New Jersey illegal organ racket.

Clearly, the Israeli government could've handled the matter in a far more truthful, honest manner. They apparently chose not to, however, because they were unaware of any hard evidence -- outside of actual pictures of autopsied Palestinians -- to point out the actual truth.

Well, they were wrong.
posted by markkraft at 7:17 AM on December 21, 2009


But apparently, "balanced" isn't balanced enough for some who prefer a permanent state of imbalance.

I'm all for Israel/Palestine discussions (at least in the sense that I don't want any topic to be undoable here; it's not a subject that gets my own blood flowing), but I really wish that they would more often come from, if not dispassionate, at least merely interested people. Instead, it's all this ax-grindy shit, again and again and again, that is semi-hidden behind "balanced" (scare quotes mandatory) writing. It gets old, and I'm sorry for the moderators who have to mop up the mess every fucking time.

Do your ax grinding on your blog, and bring the interesting discussion here.
posted by Forktine at 7:18 AM on December 21, 2009 [2 favorites]


When will a strong leader rid us of this foul menace?

Where can we find someone with the pure strength of will needed to oppose this global threat?

I'll tell you: He will rise from the People, inevitable, protean, a true expression of our age!

With His iron will and unconquerable spirit, He will lead us into the glorious future.

Set down your pencils, turn off the computers, raise your fists to heaven! Our mighty People march forward to glory! Forward to victory! The servile pigs and mewling vermin of the world await our hammers! Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln will be avenged!

Pure Strength! Pure Will! Pure Blood!
posted by aramaic at 7:20 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]




As long as Palestinians had equal opportunity to receive the harvested organs I have no problem with this. But then I don't believe any of that religion stuff..

If we were all truly pro-life then organ donation would be mandatory.
posted by srboisvert at 7:25 AM on December 21, 2009


As for the relevance and newsworthiness of the Swedish article, it's worth noting that the only reason Israel admitted to this program of theirs is that an American academic who did the interview released it because of the row between Israel and Sweden over the Swedish article in the first place.

You don't know the full scale of that interview, nor do I. But the guy who did made it public because he felt the Swedish paper was essentially correct, and that the Government of Israel was lying about it.
posted by markkraft at 7:25 AM on December 21, 2009


ZenMasterThis... sorry, but it was obvious.

My alternative was: This isn't Kosher. It's not even Halal!
posted by markkraft at 7:26 AM on December 21, 2009


Dude, you're in a hole. Stop digging.
posted by cavalier at 7:29 AM on December 21, 2009


That is not particularly far from the reality here, from a Palestinian perspective.

The Swedish article distorted facts and made stuff up. Surely you can see the difference between what the Swedish article claimed happened, and what actually happened. For a media source to invent stories is cause for strong criticism, especially when the charge is "Country X kills enemies to harvest their organs". The fact of the matter is a group of doctors harvested organs from anyone already dead, Israeli and Palestinian alike, who was brought to them. The Swedish news outlet could have certainly "handled the matter in a far more truthful, honest manner." It doesn't make the truth of the matter less repugnant, but the distinction is no small matter of getting certain eensy weensy details wrong.

Also, did you really need this thread title?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:29 AM on December 21, 2009


Also, did you really need this thread title?

I know, right? A perfect chance for a Blade Runner reference, wasted.
posted by a young man in spats at 7:34 AM on December 21, 2009 [2 favorites]


No, by all means... kill the title. Also, I never said that the Swedish article was 100% accurate.

That said, I'm not going to say anything silly like "they distorted facts and made stuff up", when a big part of that article was about trying to explain things they just didn't have all the facts to explain.

It's not their fault that they speculated on a mystery, while all the facts were hidden from them by the Israeli government. That's a *BIG* part of what papers do! When they have a story, they try to report on what they can report on, but it's up to you, the reader, to know that the people providing them the information are coming at things from their own angle... and the angle of Palestinians who wonder about disappearances, only to get back autopsied bodies with missing parts is a valid one to report on.
posted by markkraft at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


Previously, in New York
posted by TedW at 7:36 AM on December 21, 2009


Is it your intention to police and prune this thread throughout, markkraft? By my count, you've already made 9 comments in the thread, which is unusual.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:37 AM on December 21, 2009


I'm not really sure of the difference between Israeli soldiers purposely killing Palestinians to harvest their organs and Israeli soldiers killing Palestinians and then harvesting their organs.

Seems like we get the same conclusion.
posted by Allan Gordon at 7:38 AM on December 21, 2009


It's not their fault that they speculated on a mystery, while all the facts were hidden from them by the Israeli government.

As Watergate taught us, it's not the crime (however terrible that is), it's the coverup.
posted by orthogonality at 7:39 AM on December 21, 2009


You know, aramaic, I find comments like yours to be incredibly tasteless and offensive. You try very, very hard to shut off perfectly valid criticism of a horrific practice.

It's not anti-semitism to criticize the government of Israel. And deliberately confusing matters with posts like that is disgusting. They've actually admitted that they stole organs from donors without permission, and comparing outrage at that to the old 'blood libel' shit is appalling, and horrible. You are enabling these people to avoid responsibility for these apparently real abuses. You, and they, are hiding behind the "you just hate Jews!" shield, and I think that's completely vile.

I think it's pretty goddamn unlikely that the Israelis were actually attacking Palestinians to take their body parts, but they are certainly attacking Palestinians, and they certainly were taking body parts as late as 2004.

Remember the old thing about avoiding even the appearance of impropriety?
posted by Malor at 7:39 AM on December 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


I wish MeFi could be the one I/P-free place on the fucking internet.

It's like watching a playground brawl for eternity.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:40 AM on December 21, 2009


It's not their fault that they speculated on a mystery, while all the facts were hidden from them by the Israeli government.

It is entirely their fault that they reported what they did. Speculation is a part of the news cycle, sure. But we're not talking about the possible causes for the credit crisis, or what's going on at COP15. When your speculation is that there is a government-sanctioned program to kill a political enemy and harvest their fucking organs, you had damned well better be sure you have all your facts triple-checked before you even consider going there. The Swedish article charged forth anyway, and were wrong. There's nothing defensible about this, and it's hardly the fault of the Israeli government to react the way they did.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:41 AM on December 21, 2009


BTW, Marisa... could you point out examples of the Swedish article having "made stuff up"? You're certain about it, I'm sure, or you wouldn't have accused the journalists in question of completely fabricating parts of their story.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone they quoted said something false or that they simply didn't know... but that's not the same as accusing a journalist of fabricating news.

The paper in question stuck by their story, even after all the heat put on them. I would like to think they did so because they represented the facts, as they knew them to be.
posted by markkraft at 7:43 AM on December 21, 2009


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