Signs of Feminism
April 19, 2010 4:56 PM Subscribe
Flickr user CaseFace123 asked people to make a sign expressing their thoughts feminism and then pose with it. Some are inspired, some are upset, some are confused, and others run the gamut. (via feministing)
Five women and girls responded, while ten men and boys did.
posted by zinfandel at 5:07 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by zinfandel at 5:07 PM on April 19, 2010
Dumb!
(In a good way)
I have absolutely no idea what this one means.
posted by heyforfour at 5:07 PM on April 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
(In a good way)
I have absolutely no idea what this one means.
posted by heyforfour at 5:07 PM on April 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
That 'Ridiculous: seriously, you're equal already, let's focus on important issues' sign is like Pavlov's bell to me. I look at it and feel a wave of instant, overwhelming anger.
posted by somergames at 5:14 PM on April 19, 2010 [46 favorites]
posted by somergames at 5:14 PM on April 19, 2010 [46 favorites]
Five women and girls responded, while ten men and boys did.
How can we close the "opinions on the internet" gap?
posted by DU at 5:17 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
How can we close the "opinions on the internet" gap?
posted by DU at 5:17 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I hate it when my FPP has a typo. It was supposed to say "expressing their thoughts ON feminism.."
avoiding a derail, however, what would YOUR sign say?
(I haven't even answered this on my own yet, to be honest)
posted by revmitcz at 5:27 PM on April 19, 2010
avoiding a derail, however, what would YOUR sign say?
(I haven't even answered this on my own yet, to be honest)
posted by revmitcz at 5:27 PM on April 19, 2010
you're equal already
Hey, the barista treats us all the same.
posted by JaredSeth at 5:28 PM on April 19, 2010
Hey, the barista treats us all the same.
posted by JaredSeth at 5:28 PM on April 19, 2010
I can't believe I just used the word 'barista'. I feel dirty.
posted by JaredSeth at 5:28 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by JaredSeth at 5:28 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is what my sign would say.
Hamburger
posted by logicpunk at 5:30 PM on April 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hamburger
posted by logicpunk at 5:30 PM on April 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hungry!! What does that mean and why is he sticking his tongue out like that? It makes no sense.
posted by tellurian at 5:31 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by tellurian at 5:31 PM on April 19, 2010
I think he's a feministarian.
posted by Nothing... and like it at 5:37 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Nothing... and like it at 5:37 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hah, logicpunk, I was about to link that. Note: check the hovet-text.
somergames, he added a heart, did you see? Um, yeah, I did, too, and I have no idea what it meant.
Did anyone else read the "confused" sign as spelling out SIDS with the lined up first letters? Again, meaning unknown.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:42 PM on April 19, 2010
somergames, he added a heart, did you see? Um, yeah, I did, too, and I have no idea what it meant.
Did anyone else read the "confused" sign as spelling out SIDS with the lined up first letters? Again, meaning unknown.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:42 PM on April 19, 2010
Cool project, but also so, so disheartening. I hate that people hate the word AND the concept of feminism. And women are in no way equal already.
posted by agregoli at 5:49 PM on April 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 5:49 PM on April 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
oh my god. how long have i been reading a softer world and not known that there's fucking hover text? now i have to go back through the archives.
posted by eyeballkid at 5:50 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by eyeballkid at 5:50 PM on April 19, 2010
CrayDrygu - that was a brilliant and concise way to sum it all up. I'd favorite that comment a few hundred times if I could.
posted by revmitcz at 6:09 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by revmitcz at 6:09 PM on April 19, 2010
I'm sorry, but "Feministing" seems like an ill-considered name.
Really? I think it's hilarious.
posted by delmoi at 6:27 PM on April 19, 2010
Really? I think it's hilarious.
posted by delmoi at 6:27 PM on April 19, 2010
I like this guy. It's clear he's just saying what he feels, what the word makes him think of, regardless of what that means.
Also my guess on "Dumb! (in a good way)" is that he thinks that it is dumb that feminism exists because its ideals should be upheld by default.
posted by Bobicus at 8:22 PM on April 19, 2010
Also my guess on "Dumb! (in a good way)" is that he thinks that it is dumb that feminism exists because its ideals should be upheld by default.
posted by Bobicus at 8:22 PM on April 19, 2010
Feministing derail: My brain scrambled it into nemifisting. I can't remember who coined the brilliant proxy hatefuck, but nemifisting sounds like what someone should be doing to hate fueled anti-feminists (although technically a portmanteau of nemesis and fisting should probably be nemefisting).
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:23 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:23 PM on April 19, 2010
Since I'm a guy, and will always have at best an outsider's view of feminism's true worth: "If I were treated for a lifetime as I was in high school: as a second class citizen not yet worthy of respect, I'd be wearing a label like anarchist, or revolutionary. Given that, I think feminism is an amazing, awesome, positive force and you should too."
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:34 PM on April 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:34 PM on April 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
As said in the other thread, guys should go car shopping with a woman, with her being the one who will be buying the car. You will encounter a car salesman who talks to her through you. It's a clue-by-four about equality issues.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:38 PM on April 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 8:38 PM on April 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
I no longer even find it amusing to claim not to be a feminist on left-leaning internet sites, leading me to believe that feminism has sunk to the darkest depths of "old meme" status.
posted by planet at 9:03 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by planet at 9:03 PM on April 19, 2010
Oh man, I love this one. Right on, little sister!
When I was in eighth grade or so, my sister gave me a hand-me-down shirt with a glittery, 70s iron-on transfer that read "When God created man, she was only joking." I wore it to school with my neon green bell bottoms, not thinking much about it except that my outfit was awesome. One of my classmates read my shirt aloud during drama class and asked me if I was a feminist. I laughed--I sincerely thought she was joking. Not because I wasn't, but because I hadn't even realized that you could be a modern, educated, smart, and awesome girl and not be a feminist.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:07 PM on April 19, 2010 [9 favorites]
When I was in eighth grade or so, my sister gave me a hand-me-down shirt with a glittery, 70s iron-on transfer that read "When God created man, she was only joking." I wore it to school with my neon green bell bottoms, not thinking much about it except that my outfit was awesome. One of my classmates read my shirt aloud during drama class and asked me if I was a feminist. I laughed--I sincerely thought she was joking. Not because I wasn't, but because I hadn't even realized that you could be a modern, educated, smart, and awesome girl and not be a feminist.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:07 PM on April 19, 2010 [9 favorites]
My sign would say: "Define your terms."
posted by Amanojaku at 10:28 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Amanojaku at 10:28 PM on April 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
a little bit of history re: this sort of project: Gillian Wearing "Signs That Say What You Want Them To Say and Not Signs That Say Want Someone Else Wants You To Say" 1992-1993
posted by huffa at 11:23 PM on April 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by huffa at 11:23 PM on April 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Thanks, huffa. I was just going to ask if anyone remembered "I'm desperate."
posted by betweenthebars at 11:35 PM on April 19, 2010
posted by betweenthebars at 11:35 PM on April 19, 2010
And women are in no way equal already.
I think you have equality. allow me to explain:
I was the fattest kid in a hundred-mile radius back in fourth grade. all I wanted to be is equal, to be treated like anyone else. I changed that only to find out that I had been equal all along - everyone else gets the shitty treatment from some people, too. it's just for different reasons.
we're all equally facing the unjust world we live in.
posted by krautland at 2:12 AM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think you have equality. allow me to explain:
I was the fattest kid in a hundred-mile radius back in fourth grade. all I wanted to be is equal, to be treated like anyone else. I changed that only to find out that I had been equal all along - everyone else gets the shitty treatment from some people, too. it's just for different reasons.
we're all equally facing the unjust world we live in.
posted by krautland at 2:12 AM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Uh, did you miss the acid attack survivor thread?
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:51 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:51 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
As said in the other thread, guys should go car shopping with a woman, with her being the one who will be buying the car. You will encounter a car salesman who talks to her through you. It's a clue-by-four about equality issues.
That could simply be because there are a lot of asshole men who will get pissed off if another guy talks to "his girl". Not knowing the relationship between said male & female car buyer, I'd default to talking to the dude too.
posted by scrowdid at 4:21 AM on April 20, 2010
That could simply be because there are a lot of asshole men who will get pissed off if another guy talks to "his girl". Not knowing the relationship between said male & female car buyer, I'd default to talking to the dude too.
posted by scrowdid at 4:21 AM on April 20, 2010
That could simply be because there are a lot of asshole men who will get pissed off if another guy talks to "his girl". Not knowing the relationship between said male & female car buyer, I'd default to talking to the dude too.
Uh . . . if someone is plunking down 10,000+ on a purchase, then you should speak directly to them when they're buying something.
For what it's worth, my "we're not there yet" experience has always been going into a chain guitar shop--any chain guitar shop--with another woman. It always takes an inordinate amount of time to get anyone to even acknowledge our existence, while dudes and their teenage sons get helped immediately.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:39 AM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Uh . . . if someone is plunking down 10,000+ on a purchase, then you should speak directly to them when they're buying something.
For what it's worth, my "we're not there yet" experience has always been going into a chain guitar shop--any chain guitar shop--with another woman. It always takes an inordinate amount of time to get anyone to even acknowledge our existence, while dudes and their teenage sons get helped immediately.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:39 AM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Maybe you have to be a guy to see it happen, but some guys have a way of making you aware pretty quickly that you should be talking to them and not the female. I don't like it personally, but whatever. For all I know, they have a healthy, consensual master/slave relationship. Or maybe they're just creepy traditionalists. Not my cup of tea, but it happens.
posted by scrowdid at 5:07 AM on April 20, 2010
posted by scrowdid at 5:07 AM on April 20, 2010
we're all equally facing the unjust world we live in.
says the man typing from his keyboard onto the internet... which alone means you have access to more resources & privileges than the vast majority of people living on the planet
so, no, we are not all facing the unjust world we live in equally - not even close
posted by jammy at 5:15 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
says the man typing from his keyboard onto the internet... which alone means you have access to more resources & privileges than the vast majority of people living on the planet
so, no, we are not all facing the unjust world we live in equally - not even close
posted by jammy at 5:15 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think mine would say "9/11 Was An Inside Job" just to wreck the curve.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:47 AM on April 20, 2010
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:47 AM on April 20, 2010
says the man typing from his keyboard onto the internet... which alone means you have access to more resources & privileges than the vast majority of people living on the planet
what a shallow way to view the world. you don't know what I have or lack. yet you feel entirely comfortable judging me but also the ones you pretend to defend.
but you're right, we're actually not equal. I just learned that women can cause earthquakes. I certainly don't know how to achieve that. my admiration is yours.
posted by krautland at 6:42 AM on April 20, 2010
what a shallow way to view the world. you don't know what I have or lack. yet you feel entirely comfortable judging me but also the ones you pretend to defend.
but you're right, we're actually not equal. I just learned that women can cause earthquakes. I certainly don't know how to achieve that. my admiration is yours.
posted by krautland at 6:42 AM on April 20, 2010
If people want to talk about the service-people only talking to men thing, there's an open thread where you can get educated.
posted by harriet vane at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2010
posted by harriet vane at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2010
I think you have equality. allow me to explain:
Oh wonderful, an explanation! Allow me to answer with something anecdotish.
I'm a trans woman. For the first 21 years of my life, I appeared to be male and was treated as such; since then, for the last 9 years, I have lived as a woman and been treated as such. And based on my one little life, in a rich country, born to a middle-class family with an upper-class accent, I conclude that women do not have equality with men. Not even close. Not even a little bit. Not a damn chance. No. Nuh-uh.
British society, wonderfully civilised though it may be, treats women like shit compared to how it treats men. Maybe you don't need to have seen both sides to really get how vast the difference is, but it helps.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:56 AM on April 20, 2010 [19 favorites]
Oh wonderful, an explanation! Allow me to answer with something anecdotish.
I'm a trans woman. For the first 21 years of my life, I appeared to be male and was treated as such; since then, for the last 9 years, I have lived as a woman and been treated as such. And based on my one little life, in a rich country, born to a middle-class family with an upper-class accent, I conclude that women do not have equality with men. Not even close. Not even a little bit. Not a damn chance. No. Nuh-uh.
British society, wonderfully civilised though it may be, treats women like shit compared to how it treats men. Maybe you don't need to have seen both sides to really get how vast the difference is, but it helps.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:56 AM on April 20, 2010 [19 favorites]
what a shallow way to view the world. you don't know what I have or lack. yet you feel entirely comfortable judging me but also the ones you pretend to defend.
It is entirely clear, by your tele-presence on this forum, that you have access to a wider range of resources and privilege than a large portion of the people on the planet. It is also entirely clear that you're lacking access to a sense of perspective, which is part of the issue here.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:58 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
It is entirely clear, by your tele-presence on this forum, that you have access to a wider range of resources and privilege than a large portion of the people on the planet. It is also entirely clear that you're lacking access to a sense of perspective, which is part of the issue here.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:58 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
krautland: "I think you have equality. allow me to explain:"
I was going to answer with my stock response that women, in the U.S. anyway, still make 76.5% of what men make for doing the same work. However, I pointed this out in class the other day and one of my male students - one who would definitely not identify as a feminist - became enraged. "That proves nothing!" He shouted with a broad swipe of his hand. "Huh?" was the collective response. "Those numbers - you're interpreting them to mean what you want!" I asked him to explain. "Well, women probably make less than men because they do a shittier job and so should be paid less."
This is where I transform into Willem Dafoe from the Boondock Saints and scream "Raaaaa there was a firefight!"
It was a complete bloodbath, I tell you. The class was mostly women, and the guy was a gulf war vet so I was a little nervous but I've never seen anything like it in all my years.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:58 AM on April 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
I was going to answer with my stock response that women, in the U.S. anyway, still make 76.5% of what men make for doing the same work. However, I pointed this out in class the other day and one of my male students - one who would definitely not identify as a feminist - became enraged. "That proves nothing!" He shouted with a broad swipe of his hand. "Huh?" was the collective response. "Those numbers - you're interpreting them to mean what you want!" I asked him to explain. "Well, women probably make less than men because they do a shittier job and so should be paid less."
This is where I transform into Willem Dafoe from the Boondock Saints and scream "Raaaaa there was a firefight!"
It was a complete bloodbath, I tell you. The class was mostly women, and the guy was a gulf war vet so I was a little nervous but I've never seen anything like it in all my years.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:58 AM on April 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
Feminism is the gender campaign in the overall war for justice.
posted by klangklangston at 9:22 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 9:22 AM on April 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
That could simply be because there are a lot of asshole men who will get pissed off if another guy talks to "his girl".
A good theory, but I could not possibly have made it more clear to the salesmen that I was along for the ride. Not looking at the salesmen, walking away while they talk, and at one point I had to tell one of those assholes to quit talking to me and to talk to her only.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:02 AM on April 20, 2010
A good theory, but I could not possibly have made it more clear to the salesmen that I was along for the ride. Not looking at the salesmen, walking away while they talk, and at one point I had to tell one of those assholes to quit talking to me and to talk to her only.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:02 AM on April 20, 2010
Re: this "but it's really just because there's an underlying threat when talking to a guy's girl" bit, even if that is the case at times, that's hardly non-sexist either you know.
posted by ifjuly at 10:15 AM on April 20, 2010
posted by ifjuly at 10:15 AM on April 20, 2010
"If people want to talk about the service-people only talking to men thing, there's an open thread where you can get educated."
Link please?
posted by Irontom at 10:45 AM on April 20, 2010
Link please?
posted by Irontom at 10:45 AM on April 20, 2010
A good theory, but I could not possibly have made it more clear to the salesmen that I was along for the ride. Not looking at the salesmen, walking away while they talk, and at one point I had to tell one of those assholes to quit talking to me and to talk to her only.
I understand, I've been in that position too. I think there's a little truth in both theories. I've also had it happen in the other direction as well, like when I, a male, go to a fabric store with my girlfriend for a sewing project I have, and the ladies in the store answer *my* questions by talking to her.
posted by scrowdid at 1:21 PM on April 20, 2010
I understand, I've been in that position too. I think there's a little truth in both theories. I've also had it happen in the other direction as well, like when I, a male, go to a fabric store with my girlfriend for a sewing project I have, and the ladies in the store answer *my* questions by talking to her.
posted by scrowdid at 1:21 PM on April 20, 2010
A good theory, but I could not possibly have made it more clear to the salesmen that I was along for the ride. Not looking at the salesmen, walking away while they talk, and at one point I had to tell one of those assholes to quit talking to me and to talk to her only.
QFT. I asked a male friend to come with me when car shopping for exactly this reason. We would walk into the dealership and approach the nearest salesperson. I would say "I'm interested in buying a Camry. What do you have in stock?" If the salesperson's answer was directed to my friend, he would say "I'm not the one buying, she is. I'm just along for the ride."
And if the salesperson STILL insisted on addressing my friend (which happened more than once), we would turn and walk out.
Unsurprisingly, the dealership where the salesperson looked me in the eye and said "A Camry? We have several, please come this way" got the sale.
posted by Lexica at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
QFT. I asked a male friend to come with me when car shopping for exactly this reason. We would walk into the dealership and approach the nearest salesperson. I would say "I'm interested in buying a Camry. What do you have in stock?" If the salesperson's answer was directed to my friend, he would say "I'm not the one buying, she is. I'm just along for the ride."
And if the salesperson STILL insisted on addressing my friend (which happened more than once), we would turn and walk out.
Unsurprisingly, the dealership where the salesperson looked me in the eye and said "A Camry? We have several, please come this way" got the sale.
posted by Lexica at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was going to answer with my stock response that women, in the U.S. anyway, still make 76.5% of what men make for doing the same work.
Not to nitpick, but that particular statistic isn't quite as damning as it seems. Most people take it to mean that given a man and a woman working the exact same job, absent any other factors, the man will make more than the woman, but, as the link explains, "This number compares the income off [sic] all men and women who work 35 hours or more each week." It reflects the difference between the average man's earnings and the average woman's earnings, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. "Doing the same work" isn't taken into account.
While it almost certainly *does* reflect a certain level of institutionalized sexism (women often not encouraged or allowed to work in higher-paying, typically male fields), it also reflects the greater number of woman who choose to be at-home parents. One could argue that in a completely gender-bias-free environment, the stay-at-home role would be split across genders equally, but given the biological realities, that's probably unlikely to happen any time soon, and probably shouldn't be taken as evidence of patriarchy.
At the very least, it's a statistic that's significantly more complicated than it's usually acknowledged as.
posted by Amanojaku at 4:30 PM on April 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Not to nitpick, but that particular statistic isn't quite as damning as it seems. Most people take it to mean that given a man and a woman working the exact same job, absent any other factors, the man will make more than the woman, but, as the link explains, "This number compares the income off [sic] all men and women who work 35 hours or more each week." It reflects the difference between the average man's earnings and the average woman's earnings, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. "Doing the same work" isn't taken into account.
While it almost certainly *does* reflect a certain level of institutionalized sexism (women often not encouraged or allowed to work in higher-paying, typically male fields), it also reflects the greater number of woman who choose to be at-home parents. One could argue that in a completely gender-bias-free environment, the stay-at-home role would be split across genders equally, but given the biological realities, that's probably unlikely to happen any time soon, and probably shouldn't be taken as evidence of patriarchy.
At the very least, it's a statistic that's significantly more complicated than it's usually acknowledged as.
posted by Amanojaku at 4:30 PM on April 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
funny. I say you have equality because you get shitty treatment and you say you are not equal because you get shitty treatment. ah, well.
Baby_Balrog: you might find this interesting.
posted by krautland at 4:31 PM on April 20, 2010
Baby_Balrog: you might find this interesting.
posted by krautland at 4:31 PM on April 20, 2010
No, no-one disputes that everyone gets shitty treatment. But the shitty treatment that some people (women, LGBT people, disabled people, people of colour, and many more) get is both different and more pervasive.
So yes, fat people are subject to discrimination, taunts, and so forth. I recall studies that found fat people don't earn as much, and find it more difficult to get jobs and access healthcare. But a fat woman, well, she gets all that plus discrimination for being a woman: lower pay yet again, doctors refusing to provide certain care because she "might want a baby some day", and so on (googling for "male privilege checklist" will undoubtedly provide lists upon lists of shit women get that men don't, and having been in both places I can confirm their accuracy). Hell, I know people joke about it -- "Time to go hire a fat, disabled, lesbian whale!" -- but imagine being fat, female, gay, disabled, and black, and trying to get a job; this shit multiplies.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 12:31 AM on April 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
So yes, fat people are subject to discrimination, taunts, and so forth. I recall studies that found fat people don't earn as much, and find it more difficult to get jobs and access healthcare. But a fat woman, well, she gets all that plus discrimination for being a woman: lower pay yet again, doctors refusing to provide certain care because she "might want a baby some day", and so on (googling for "male privilege checklist" will undoubtedly provide lists upon lists of shit women get that men don't, and having been in both places I can confirm their accuracy). Hell, I know people joke about it -- "Time to go hire a fat, disabled, lesbian whale!" -- but imagine being fat, female, gay, disabled, and black, and trying to get a job; this shit multiplies.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 12:31 AM on April 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Time to go hire a fat, disabled, lesbian whale!"
meh... I think once you're talking about people like that you have no chance if you just fill one category they happen to have a problem with. the owner of fedex flat-out says that for certain management positions he only hires ex-marines because "they have more discipline."
this sounds to me like you picked a rather extreme example to tar a lot more innocent people with. I don't for a second dispute that there are people who treat women as less than equal. heck, I know a guy in a hiring position who does that. but it rubs me the wrong way when they are being used as a measure for how society is. most people are decent and fair. most people hate injustice. and running into a case where you are being discriminated in proves only that one person is different, not all.
posted by krautland at 8:20 AM on April 21, 2010
meh... I think once you're talking about people like that you have no chance if you just fill one category they happen to have a problem with. the owner of fedex flat-out says that for certain management positions he only hires ex-marines because "they have more discipline."
this sounds to me like you picked a rather extreme example to tar a lot more innocent people with. I don't for a second dispute that there are people who treat women as less than equal. heck, I know a guy in a hiring position who does that. but it rubs me the wrong way when they are being used as a measure for how society is. most people are decent and fair. most people hate injustice. and running into a case where you are being discriminated in proves only that one person is different, not all.
posted by krautland at 8:20 AM on April 21, 2010
You'd be right, krautland, if you weren't so wrong. Most people may be decent and fair, but the fact is that there is a huge amount of prejudice and discrimination. You just can not blithely deny what is true.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 AM on April 21, 2010
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 AM on April 21, 2010
Sorry if I get a bit spittle-y here.
Saying one person showing racisim, sexisim, ableism, etc to another individual more or less "sucks, but isn't everyone's problem" is sort of the whole fucking problem. Issues of social justice aren't just about individuals who hold fucked up views and act on them, consciously or unconsciously. Social justice is about society at large and the institutional, compound, effects of discrimination. Even decent and fair people acting within institutionalized sexism promote sexism without holding or acting on sexist views.
An example: A female student excels in all areas of study, and through out high school is forming ideas of what she would like to study at college. Adults, and adults in the media, show her possible roles for her future over many years. There is a dearth of female mathematicians, but she sees many female authors. She studies english in college.
No one in this situation acted with particular sexist malice, nor is becoming an english major a bad thing. Nothing exactly was stopping her from studying math, but nothing was promoting it either. With a lack of role models, she, as a psychologically developing person, was not given the opportunity to emulate an adult. This is not an experience a young man would face. This is a (mild) example of institutionalized sexism.
Am I making sense? Are you getting it? Anecdotes about "this guy was a jerk to me because I'm a woman" DO NOT MEAN THE SAME THING AS "this woman was a jerk to me because I'm a guy". We are not acting in a void, where one person's actions stand alone. We live in a world with patriarchy and institutionalized discrimination. This is something I see men forget about all the time. I would love for an asshole to just be an asshole. Maybe that would be a sign of a free and equal world. We're not there yet.
I link to the penultimate thread on this topic. Good day.
posted by fontophilic at 10:22 AM on April 21, 2010 [6 favorites]
Saying one person showing racisim, sexisim, ableism, etc to another individual more or less "sucks, but isn't everyone's problem" is sort of the whole fucking problem. Issues of social justice aren't just about individuals who hold fucked up views and act on them, consciously or unconsciously. Social justice is about society at large and the institutional, compound, effects of discrimination. Even decent and fair people acting within institutionalized sexism promote sexism without holding or acting on sexist views.
An example: A female student excels in all areas of study, and through out high school is forming ideas of what she would like to study at college. Adults, and adults in the media, show her possible roles for her future over many years. There is a dearth of female mathematicians, but she sees many female authors. She studies english in college.
No one in this situation acted with particular sexist malice, nor is becoming an english major a bad thing. Nothing exactly was stopping her from studying math, but nothing was promoting it either. With a lack of role models, she, as a psychologically developing person, was not given the opportunity to emulate an adult. This is not an experience a young man would face. This is a (mild) example of institutionalized sexism.
Am I making sense? Are you getting it? Anecdotes about "this guy was a jerk to me because I'm a woman" DO NOT MEAN THE SAME THING AS "this woman was a jerk to me because I'm a guy". We are not acting in a void, where one person's actions stand alone. We live in a world with patriarchy and institutionalized discrimination. This is something I see men forget about all the time. I would love for an asshole to just be an asshole. Maybe that would be a sign of a free and equal world. We're not there yet.
I link to the penultimate thread on this topic. Good day.
posted by fontophilic at 10:22 AM on April 21, 2010 [6 favorites]
most people are decent and fair.
A person is not society. Besides, most people think of themselves as decent and fair, and yet apparently decent and fair people still vote against gay rights, still make jokes about black people, etc., etc.
running into a case where you are being discriminated in proves only that one person is different, not all.
I've had a few goes at writing this reply and not coming off extremely bitter, but the murder rate for black trans women would like to have a word with you at this point. Being murdered is, for a black trans woman, more likely than dying of disease, or accident, or old age. There is something about this wonderful society we've cooked up between us that makes this so, and remember that the attitude that murders people is just a more extreme version of the attitude that denies them healthcare, or votes against their rights. The world is a big heap of razor blades and the people at the top, white males, may get nicked a little occasionally -- and it definitely hurts! -- but the people at the bottom are getting cut to ribbons.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:42 AM on April 21, 2010 [6 favorites]
A person is not society. Besides, most people think of themselves as decent and fair, and yet apparently decent and fair people still vote against gay rights, still make jokes about black people, etc., etc.
running into a case where you are being discriminated in proves only that one person is different, not all.
I've had a few goes at writing this reply and not coming off extremely bitter, but the murder rate for black trans women would like to have a word with you at this point. Being murdered is, for a black trans woman, more likely than dying of disease, or accident, or old age. There is something about this wonderful society we've cooked up between us that makes this so, and remember that the attitude that murders people is just a more extreme version of the attitude that denies them healthcare, or votes against their rights. The world is a big heap of razor blades and the people at the top, white males, may get nicked a little occasionally -- and it definitely hurts! -- but the people at the bottom are getting cut to ribbons.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:42 AM on April 21, 2010 [6 favorites]
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posted by mccarty.tim at 5:05 PM on April 19, 2010