This is not your father's fag-hating god! ...is it?
July 1, 2010 5:36 PM Subscribe
"I hugged a man in his underwear. I hugged him tightly. And I am proud."
Christian demonstrators working with the Marin Foundation spent the day at Chicago's Pride Parade to deliver an unexpected message: "I'm Sorry."
But, not everyone is feeling the love. And the suspicion might be well-founded.
Christian demonstrators working with the Marin Foundation spent the day at Chicago's Pride Parade to deliver an unexpected message: "I'm Sorry."
But, not everyone is feeling the love. And the suspicion might be well-founded.
I hugged a man and I liked it. (Add autotune here please).
posted by Serial Killer Slumber Party at 5:40 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by Serial Killer Slumber Party at 5:40 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
This is a great new thing for Christians alike. Its not about discrimination but for winning souls.
posted by mind2body at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by mind2body at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2010
Nothing will reconcile me with religion, good intentions aside. It remains a scourge, sorry or not.
posted by emhutchinson at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2010 [16 favorites]
posted by emhutchinson at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2010 [16 favorites]
I sort of feel you emhutchinson, but from a practical standpoint I think this is a damn good thing. Religion isn't going anywhere, scourge or not, and so churches doing one of the few things available to them that might actually repair the horribly damaged relationship between them and many gay people is an excellent step forward in making society a better place to live.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 5:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 5:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
Just as a fun side story, when my step-dad came out a few years ago, my fundie mom called me and told me it was my "Christian duty" to stage a "Christian intervention" and basically Jesus the gay out of him.
Yeah, gonna take more than hugging guys in their underpants for me to take these guys seriously.
posted by jimhankmom at 5:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yeah, gonna take more than hugging guys in their underpants for me to take these guys seriously.
posted by jimhankmom at 5:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
That's nothing. I once knew a man with a wooden leg named Smith.
posted by DU at 6:00 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by DU at 6:00 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
"I hugged a man in my underwear. How he got into my underwear, Lord only knows."
posted by hal9k at 6:01 PM on July 1, 2010 [29 favorites]
posted by hal9k at 6:01 PM on July 1, 2010 [29 favorites]
Yeah, gonna take more than hugging guys in their underpants for me to take these guys seriously.
Why, was one of the people who hugged a guy in your underpants your fundie mom?
posted by kenko at 6:03 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
Why, was one of the people who hugged a guy in your underpants your fundie mom?
posted by kenko at 6:03 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Anything that tones down the mutual hate, on both sides (warranted or not) is a good thing.
posted by rocket88 at 6:13 PM on July 1, 2010 [29 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 6:13 PM on July 1, 2010 [29 favorites]
I call this progress. Sure, it would be nice if they embraced gay people without simultaneously adhering to and preaching and ideology of condemnation and exclusion, but it's still progress. Nice first step, and it's worth acknowledging as such. That said, it will never be acceptable to preach that gay people are inherently sinful or gay behavior is inherently sinful. Until that is repudiated by Christians, there can be no true reconciliation. But I'll take this for what it's worth - a nice first gesture.
posted by VikingSword at 6:15 PM on July 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by VikingSword at 6:15 PM on July 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
Dammit, hal9k. Now I have nothing to put in this comment.
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 6:17 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 6:17 PM on July 1, 2010
"I'm Sorry" - The Marin Foundation at Chicago's Gay Pride Parade 2010.
posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on July 1, 2010
Nothing will reconcile me with religion, good intentions aside. It remains a scourge, sorry or not.
In my opinion, this is not a story about reconciling with religion; it is a story about reconciling with religious people.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 6:19 PM on July 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
In my opinion, this is not a story about reconciling with religion; it is a story about reconciling with religious people.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 6:19 PM on July 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
You were in a swimming team and won something?
Good for you.
posted by sien at 6:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Good for you.
posted by sien at 6:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I literally cried over the photo on Towleroad covering this. I am not from a fundie family but my partner is. Then I read the update which covers the whole Marin controversy.
I'm not sure why I'm commenting, but a recent BBC r4 show noted it's unlikely the Jesus would ever come back and say 'yeah, but not the poofs!'
posted by CaptApollo at 6:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure why I'm commenting, but a recent BBC r4 show noted it's unlikely the Jesus would ever come back and say 'yeah, but not the poofs!'
posted by CaptApollo at 6:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've wondered what will happen to the millions of vicious homophones in this country as their position continues to be further marginalized. The dustbin of history is an excellent metaphor but not an actual place. Will the prop 8-voting gay-bashing demographic reform? Will they silent themselves without changing, like post-60s southern racists who learned what not to share in public? Will they splinter, self-organize and embrace extremism like the Birchers? Will there be homophobic reenactors like the lost causers, embarrassing everyone to the left of Jerry Falwell's bloated corpse? Or will people repent and embrace modernity, in a manner hinted in this post, problematic though the implementation may be.
Perhaps this encourages some, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by allen.spaulding at 6:25 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Perhaps this encourages some, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by allen.spaulding at 6:25 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I concur with VikingSword. It's a first step. Better than the usual Christian behavior, at least.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:26 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:26 PM on July 1, 2010
Key quote from Michelangelo Signorile (in the "well-founded" link):
posted by ericb at 6:27 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
"I invited Marin to be on my program on Sirius Satellite Radio , where he would not answer a simple question I asked four times: 'Do you affirm homosexuality as normal, natural, and healthy?' Marin claimed that as a 'bridge' he had to be circumspect and also denied ever saying the foundation would make him rich. He also said that he had the full support of HRC, GLAA , and GMHC , which he had linked to and listed on his Web site as 'sponsors and donors,' even though he admitted they had not given him any money."I call 'fraud.'
posted by ericb at 6:27 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
This kind of passive agressive religious proselytizing sets off my creep radar. Signorile's reporting confirms that feeling. Ugh. *shivers*
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:28 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:28 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Until that is repudiated by Christians, there can be no true reconciliation.
I think part of the problem is that, as for Christians* anyways, there isn't some sort of governing Christian body that can repudiate the behavior. When it comes down to it, it's really just about the Visible Christians. If all of the Visible Christians exhibit bigoted behavior, then you start to think pretty much all Christians are bigoted.
The point of this demonstration, I think, is to increase the number of non-bigoted Visible Christians, so that maybe some gay equality advocates won't need to hate Christians just because they are Christian. I'd like to hope that this non-bigoted pro-gay-equality Christian has some legs, so it can grow and spread. It would be a win-win for everybody. Such Christians exist, I swear they do, but I think they just get drowned out by the bigots.
Otherwise, I think it's kind of hokey for one group of people to apologize for what a bunch of other people did. I mean, it does nobody any good if I, as a Catholic, apologize for the rampant child molestation committed by priests.
*As opposed to Catholics or Mormons. Also, as opposed to Episcopalians.
posted by jabberjaw at 6:32 PM on July 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
I think part of the problem is that, as for Christians* anyways, there isn't some sort of governing Christian body that can repudiate the behavior. When it comes down to it, it's really just about the Visible Christians. If all of the Visible Christians exhibit bigoted behavior, then you start to think pretty much all Christians are bigoted.
The point of this demonstration, I think, is to increase the number of non-bigoted Visible Christians, so that maybe some gay equality advocates won't need to hate Christians just because they are Christian. I'd like to hope that this non-bigoted pro-gay-equality Christian has some legs, so it can grow and spread. It would be a win-win for everybody. Such Christians exist, I swear they do, but I think they just get drowned out by the bigots.
Otherwise, I think it's kind of hokey for one group of people to apologize for what a bunch of other people did. I mean, it does nobody any good if I, as a Catholic, apologize for the rampant child molestation committed by priests.
*As opposed to Catholics or Mormons. Also, as opposed to Episcopalians.
posted by jabberjaw at 6:32 PM on July 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
"I hugged a man in his underwear. I hugged him tightly."
So... wait, is he talking about "Pride" the MMA competition, or "Pride" the parade?
posted by qvantamon at 6:33 PM on July 1, 2010
So... wait, is he talking about "Pride" the MMA competition, or "Pride" the parade?
posted by qvantamon at 6:33 PM on July 1, 2010
Ching, ching!
"Andrew Marin, Kevin Harris, and I [Nathan Nathan Albert, Director of Pastoral Care] at The Marin Foundation have gotten tons of requests for an 'I'm Sorry' shirt. For those interested in buying one, we now have that available. 100% of the proceeds for these shirts will go back to The Marin Foundation..."*posted by ericb at 6:35 PM on July 1, 2010
I've only been to one Pride parade, in New York. Can't remember the year, but probably late '90s. Anyway, I brought my mom, who's a pro-gay Christian who was born and raised in Arkansas and has lived in a small town in Texas for the past 25 years. Near the end of the parade, there were several church floats. My mom cried--she had never seen that kind of show of support for gay people from other Christians.
I had always assumed that such floats are an annual occurrence, but this is getting so much attention. I guess it's the apology aspect that's causing all the press? My point, and I do have one, is that there are Christians who accept that being gay is completely normal. I guess it would be a shame if a bunch of people who still believe the whole hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner crap grabbed the recognition from Christians who are truly pro-gay.
Still, it's a step in the right direction if bigoted Christians realized that their bigotry is just a personal belief and should not be imposed on others.
posted by Mavri at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I had always assumed that such floats are an annual occurrence, but this is getting so much attention. I guess it's the apology aspect that's causing all the press? My point, and I do have one, is that there are Christians who accept that being gay is completely normal. I guess it would be a shame if a bunch of people who still believe the whole hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner crap grabbed the recognition from Christians who are truly pro-gay.
Still, it's a step in the right direction if bigoted Christians realized that their bigotry is just a personal belief and should not be imposed on others.
posted by Mavri at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I call 'fraud.'
Seriously? Honestly, who cares if the guy who started the foundation is a fraud as long as young people -- the young people pictured and discussed in the article -- are actually acknowledging and apologizing for their prior unChristian acts??
(Also, though I know a lot of people think Christian = homophobic, I want to point out that a large contingent from my church actually walked in the Chciago Pride parade, after being blessed by the clergy and the congregation. So before you tar all Christians with the brush of hatred, realize that there are Christians out there who believe that God didn't make anyone to be hated, and have been working towards spreading THAT gospel for years.)
posted by devinemissk at 6:37 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
Seriously? Honestly, who cares if the guy who started the foundation is a fraud as long as young people -- the young people pictured and discussed in the article -- are actually acknowledging and apologizing for their prior unChristian acts??
(Also, though I know a lot of people think Christian = homophobic, I want to point out that a large contingent from my church actually walked in the Chciago Pride parade, after being blessed by the clergy and the congregation. So before you tar all Christians with the brush of hatred, realize that there are Christians out there who believe that God didn't make anyone to be hated, and have been working towards spreading THAT gospel for years.)
posted by devinemissk at 6:37 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Who want to to feel your underwear upon their loins"
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 6:41 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 6:41 PM on July 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
rather have a scam artist sell the message of acceptance and love than have a scam artist sell the message of intolerance and hatred.
posted by el io at 6:51 PM on July 1, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by el io at 6:51 PM on July 1, 2010 [11 favorites]
Also, though I know a lot of people think Christian = homophobic, I want to point out that a large contingent from my church actually walked in the Chciago Pride parade, after being blessed by the clergy and the congregation. So before you tar all Christians with the brush of hatred, realize that there are Christians out there who believe that God didn't make anyone to be hated, and have been working towards spreading THAT gospel for years.
This.
The point of this demonstration, I think, is to increase the number of non-bigoted Visible Christians, so that maybe some gay equality advocates won't need to hate Christians just because they are Christian. I'd like to hope that this non-bigoted pro-gay-equality Christian has some legs, so it can grow and spread. It would be a win-win for everybody. Such Christians exist, I swear they do, but I think they just get drowned out by the bigots.
And this.
posted by jeanmari at 7:03 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
This.
The point of this demonstration, I think, is to increase the number of non-bigoted Visible Christians, so that maybe some gay equality advocates won't need to hate Christians just because they are Christian. I'd like to hope that this non-bigoted pro-gay-equality Christian has some legs, so it can grow and spread. It would be a win-win for everybody. Such Christians exist, I swear they do, but I think they just get drowned out by the bigots.
And this.
posted by jeanmari at 7:03 PM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
This kind of passive agressive religious proselytizing sets off my creep radar.
Kind of like how my 'creep radar' was triggered when learning that the original AIDSRides USA bicycle and Avon Breast Cancer 3-Day Walks fundraisers were organized by the for-profit company Pallotta TeamWorks.
After lawsuits for paltry contributions to AIDS organizations ("In two Florida AIDS Rides only $482,000 of the $2.3 Million donated went to charity. In three Texas rides, less than $1 million of the $5.8 million contributed ended up with the beneficiary charities.") and anger from many, the company shut-down in 2002.
And, guess what? Dan Pallotta relaunched his controversial company in 2008. This is the new and improved for-profit Pallotta Teamworks .
And history repeats itself: AIDS Network Used 58% Of Donations From ACT Ride On Operating Costs.
posted by ericb at 7:06 PM on July 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
Kind of like how my 'creep radar' was triggered when learning that the original AIDSRides USA bicycle and Avon Breast Cancer 3-Day Walks fundraisers were organized by the for-profit company Pallotta TeamWorks.
After lawsuits for paltry contributions to AIDS organizations ("In two Florida AIDS Rides only $482,000 of the $2.3 Million donated went to charity. In three Texas rides, less than $1 million of the $5.8 million contributed ended up with the beneficiary charities.") and anger from many, the company shut-down in 2002.
And, guess what? Dan Pallotta relaunched his controversial company in 2008. This is the new and improved for-profit Pallotta Teamworks .
And history repeats itself: AIDS Network Used 58% Of Donations From ACT Ride On Operating Costs.
posted by ericb at 7:06 PM on July 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
The point of this demonstration, I think, is to increase the number of non-bigoted Visible Christians, so that maybe some gay equality advocates won't need to hate Christians just because they are Christian.
The point of this demonstration sure as shit better be an unqualified apology for truly disgusting behavior. The change in image comes with the reformed behavior.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 7:10 PM on July 1, 2010
The point of this demonstration sure as shit better be an unqualified apology for truly disgusting behavior. The change in image comes with the reformed behavior.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 7:10 PM on July 1, 2010
Twitter: Purchase our "I'm Sorry" T-shirts that we wore at the Chicago Pride Parade.
I just threw-up a bit in my mouth.
posted by ericb at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2010
I just threw-up a bit in my mouth.
posted by ericb at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2010
AIDS Network Used 58% Of Donations From ACT Ride On Operating Costs.
Hmmm, I wonder how much of a typical church's donations go to operating costs?
posted by Mental Wimp at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2010
Hmmm, I wonder how much of a typical church's donations go to operating costs?
posted by Mental Wimp at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2010
Addendum: not that the 58% is a good thing.
posted by Mental Wimp at 7:21 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by Mental Wimp at 7:21 PM on July 1, 2010
Addendum: not that the 58% is a good thing.
Exactly.
Exactly.
"This audit proves that in 2008 AIDS Network lied to all of the ACT Ride participants when it said that 90% of their donations were used to support AIDS Network prevention and client services. The audit proves that only 32% of Rider donations were used for these services. What is shocking to everyone who has ever invested the time and enormous energy to complete the ACT Ride and raise the funds – is that 58% of their hard earned donations are used by AIDS Network to cover their fundraising and management costs."posted by ericb at 7:23 PM on July 1, 2010
I shot an elephant in my pyjamas.
posted by Trochanter at 7:23 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by Trochanter at 7:23 PM on July 1, 2010
Oops! I scanned the whole thread looking for elephant and pyjamas, post my little joke, and then see halk9k has made it without using either term. club. member. wouldn't have me. veal.
posted by Trochanter at 7:27 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 7:27 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Trochanter, let me introduce you to my friend, Groucho Marx, who will be perfoming all week here in the Poconos!
posted by ericb at 7:29 PM on July 1, 2010
posted by ericb at 7:29 PM on July 1, 2010
Don't be silly, ericb. Groucho played the Catskills.
posted by jonmc at 7:34 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 7:34 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
So before you tar all Christians with the brush of hatred, realize that there are Christians out there who believe that God didn't make anyone to be hated, and have been working towards spreading THAT gospel for years.
My church (Congregational/U.C.C.) has been accepting of us LGBT folks for years!
Oh, and there has been a history of the United Church of Christ's television commercials promoting 'inclusion' being rejected by broadcast television.
posted by ericb at 7:43 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
My church (Congregational/U.C.C.) has been accepting of us LGBT folks for years!
Oh, and there has been a history of the United Church of Christ's television commercials promoting 'inclusion' being rejected by broadcast television.
posted by ericb at 7:43 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I hugged a man in my underwear. How he got into my underwear, Lord only knows."
I think I recently heard some Senators using very similar lines to the Press....
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:45 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think I recently heard some Senators using very similar lines to the Press....
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:45 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Nothing will reconcile me with religion, good intentions aside. It remains a scourge, sorry or not.
How do you feel about religious PEOPLE? Are they too a "scourge"?
If you also feel it's not worth reconciling with religious people, then what makes you different FROM the people who you decry for writing off an entire class of people solely because of something they do?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
How do you feel about religious PEOPLE? Are they too a "scourge"?
If you also feel it's not worth reconciling with religious people, then what makes you different FROM the people who you decry for writing off an entire class of people solely because of something they do?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on July 1, 2010 [4 favorites]
Hi Key West checking in. You know, thegayestplaceonearth.com? Here's my take on this:
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
See, here in Key West, we have a random guy who people here refer to as Mr Hate. He shows up at the main gay events with big signs that read "God Hates Faggots". He showed up to one of the biggest AIDS Help events recently with a sign that said "Faggots burn in HELL". It's so sad.
Seeing as people come here to Key West to experience tolerance—the city of Key West's official philosophy is All people are created equal members of One Human Family—it's to our community's credit that we tolerate this person as well. (His other signs read, "Soldiers burn in HELL" and "Obama something something" but you get the drift.)
Nonetheless, considering what all the people who are gay have had to put up elsewhere before flocking here, and that visiting kids have to be exposed to that—local kids know better—Mr Hate puts a real damper on the Pride Parade....
...except not this year. This year the Key West Gay & Lesbian Community Center formed a team to be around Mr Hate with signs that read "WE LOVE YOU!" and "Everyone is Loved" and "Love loves Love" and so on. And it was stunning watching the reaction of people being hurt by this one guy with his sad signs suddenly light up with good cheer and immediate tears of joy when they say the Key West GLCC signs.
So, I can say from personal experience—and, full disclosure, as the president of the Key West Gay & Lesbian Community Center—this kind of action goes a long way towards healing the hurt.
If the group is selling t-shirts, great! Spread the message, spread the love. People who are Christian around here will welcome this sort of effort. It's been a long time coming. And trust me, if they showed up here it would be one giant loving hugging mascara-running, tear-filled happy festival. Keep up the good work, Marin Foundation. We love you too!
Remember, it is takes some real effort to overcome the kind of indoctrinated hatred that is historical to Christianity towards homosexuality. Even if these folks are unaware of what they have started here, it took a lot to make the first move. Coming out of an intolerant mindset and moving towards an open-minded and open-armed one takes more than common sense. It takes courage. And for that, I applaud these love activists.
posted by Mike Mongo at 9:02 PM on July 1, 2010 [12 favorites]
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
See, here in Key West, we have a random guy who people here refer to as Mr Hate. He shows up at the main gay events with big signs that read "God Hates Faggots". He showed up to one of the biggest AIDS Help events recently with a sign that said "Faggots burn in HELL". It's so sad.
Seeing as people come here to Key West to experience tolerance—the city of Key West's official philosophy is All people are created equal members of One Human Family—it's to our community's credit that we tolerate this person as well. (His other signs read, "Soldiers burn in HELL" and "Obama something something" but you get the drift.)
Nonetheless, considering what all the people who are gay have had to put up elsewhere before flocking here, and that visiting kids have to be exposed to that—local kids know better—Mr Hate puts a real damper on the Pride Parade....
...except not this year. This year the Key West Gay & Lesbian Community Center formed a team to be around Mr Hate with signs that read "WE LOVE YOU!" and "Everyone is Loved" and "Love loves Love" and so on. And it was stunning watching the reaction of people being hurt by this one guy with his sad signs suddenly light up with good cheer and immediate tears of joy when they say the Key West GLCC signs.
So, I can say from personal experience—and, full disclosure, as the president of the Key West Gay & Lesbian Community Center—this kind of action goes a long way towards healing the hurt.
If the group is selling t-shirts, great! Spread the message, spread the love. People who are Christian around here will welcome this sort of effort. It's been a long time coming. And trust me, if they showed up here it would be one giant loving hugging mascara-running, tear-filled happy festival. Keep up the good work, Marin Foundation. We love you too!
Remember, it is takes some real effort to overcome the kind of indoctrinated hatred that is historical to Christianity towards homosexuality. Even if these folks are unaware of what they have started here, it took a lot to make the first move. Coming out of an intolerant mindset and moving towards an open-minded and open-armed one takes more than common sense. It takes courage. And for that, I applaud these love activists.
posted by Mike Mongo at 9:02 PM on July 1, 2010 [12 favorites]
Christian congregations march in Pride parades all the time, and don't have weaselly homophobic doctrines. Why does a church that's less inclusive than those get more attention? Why does it become a standard for what Christians are like?
posted by mobunited at 9:33 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by mobunited at 9:33 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
A few people in this thread have said that if they still hate the "sin", what does it matter if they engage with the "sinner" as an equal human being.
One of my favourite speeches is an examination of human (particularly American) experience. It stopped short of preaching its own morality, instead satisfying itself with having built, and having extolled the virtues of, shared experience. The speech ended like this:
I believe that liberalism is a recognition of experience rather than tradition as the fountainhead of morality. So, just as I recognize my experience, I feel that I must accept that other people who have different experiences than me will arrive at different conclusions, but no matter what we must never cut ourselves off from from each other with prejudice and closed-mindedness. So long as there is respect and the sharing of experience, my experience tells me that synthesis is inevitable — perfection is inevitable.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 9:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
One of my favourite speeches is an examination of human (particularly American) experience. It stopped short of preaching its own morality, instead satisfying itself with having built, and having extolled the virtues of, shared experience. The speech ended like this:
And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue... He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."The reason people tear up when they read this Christian person's story is that in that moment — in that hug between the Christian ex-homophobe and the gay guy in his underwear, that is where perfection begins.
By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough... But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger ... [it] is where perfection begins.
I believe that liberalism is a recognition of experience rather than tradition as the fountainhead of morality. So, just as I recognize my experience, I feel that I must accept that other people who have different experiences than me will arrive at different conclusions, but no matter what we must never cut ourselves off from from each other with prejudice and closed-mindedness. So long as there is respect and the sharing of experience, my experience tells me that synthesis is inevitable — perfection is inevitable.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 9:59 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
A few people in this thread have said that if they still hate the "sin", what does it matter if they engage with the "sinner" as an equal human being.
I think it's slightly more subtle than that. It's more that this thing that appears to be heartfelt and an extremely positive step on the road to reconciliation between two groups could very well be a craven attempt to get publicity for a church without actually changing any attitudes or behavior towards homosexuals. It makes the apology disingenuous and downright insulting to the people they're apologizing to. And these are people to whom an apology is owed by this and many other churches.
"Yeah, we're sorry we treated you like shit. Howzabout you come down to the church and get told your an unrepentant sinner if you decide to ever have sex with a person you're attracted to. Oh, by the way, we're totally going to vote down your rights the next time we and people like us decide they should again be subjected to a referendum. Apology accepted? Awesome. Here comes the collection plate!"
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think it's slightly more subtle than that. It's more that this thing that appears to be heartfelt and an extremely positive step on the road to reconciliation between two groups could very well be a craven attempt to get publicity for a church without actually changing any attitudes or behavior towards homosexuals. It makes the apology disingenuous and downright insulting to the people they're apologizing to. And these are people to whom an apology is owed by this and many other churches.
"Yeah, we're sorry we treated you like shit. Howzabout you come down to the church and get told your an unrepentant sinner if you decide to ever have sex with a person you're attracted to. Oh, by the way, we're totally going to vote down your rights the next time we and people like us decide they should again be subjected to a referendum. Apology accepted? Awesome. Here comes the collection plate!"
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I really want to be all heart-warmed and happy by this. I feel like such a cynic that I'm not. It's a first step - I want to believe that it's a genuine one, taken with good intent - on a long road, and I am definitely relieved to see people walking that road. I don't know. I guess I'm just having a hard time overcoming my own worst nature. Too often, apologies are made to make the person apologizing feel better about the lousy things they've done.
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:29 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:29 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Apology accepted? Awesome. Here comes the collection plate!"
Ha. Funny... But I think you should read Nathan's posts in the comments (search for "Nathan said" on the second link.)
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 10:35 PM on July 1, 2010
Ha. Funny... But I think you should read Nathan's posts in the comments (search for "Nathan said" on the second link.)
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 10:35 PM on July 1, 2010
Also present at the Chicago Pride Parade: A float from the Cubs, and the Stanley Cup.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:35 PM on July 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 10:35 PM on July 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
But I think you should read Nathan's posts in the comments (search for "Nathan said" on the second link.)
I did what you said and literally none of my questions were answered. I got a lot of mealy-mouthed rambling about "love" but nothing really on the day-to-day implications of Christian theology on gay people. I'm not even sure Nathan understands what he should be apologizing for, or what a meaningful apology would actually entail. It seems to me like he's just spouting the same-old tired "hate the sin love the sinner" nonsense that doesn't amount to any picture of love that I'd recognize. If he's going to go on telling gay people that they can never get married (and thus never have sex) then I'm afraid he's just as full of shit today as he was last week.
I want to believe this, but the evidence that this is just some dumb stunt is mounting. He has to actually change the way he treats gay people (this includes his and his church's teachings) or he's actually done more harm than good. If he won't do what's necessary then when a church finally comes along that will people won't be so ready to believe that they're on the up and up.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:47 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I did what you said and literally none of my questions were answered. I got a lot of mealy-mouthed rambling about "love" but nothing really on the day-to-day implications of Christian theology on gay people. I'm not even sure Nathan understands what he should be apologizing for, or what a meaningful apology would actually entail. It seems to me like he's just spouting the same-old tired "hate the sin love the sinner" nonsense that doesn't amount to any picture of love that I'd recognize. If he's going to go on telling gay people that they can never get married (and thus never have sex) then I'm afraid he's just as full of shit today as he was last week.
I want to believe this, but the evidence that this is just some dumb stunt is mounting. He has to actually change the way he treats gay people (this includes his and his church's teachings) or he's actually done more harm than good. If he won't do what's necessary then when a church finally comes along that will people won't be so ready to believe that they're on the up and up.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:47 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Although it sounds like you disagree, my point was that when people build shared experience, they inevitably take each other's feelings into account. So, regarding your examples, something will have to give: either he will have to accept gay marriage or else gay people will have to stop wanting to get married. This synthesis is dependent on the shared experience.
Perhaps, someone who is against gay marriage can be seen to be "sinning", and yet shouldn't we be accepting of the person while we reject their conclusion? Isn't this the path to understanding. Or is conviction and intolerance the best answer?
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 11:05 PM on July 1, 2010
Perhaps, someone who is against gay marriage can be seen to be "sinning", and yet shouldn't we be accepting of the person while we reject their conclusion? Isn't this the path to understanding. Or is conviction and intolerance the best answer?
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 11:05 PM on July 1, 2010
I just read Nathan's comments. He seems like a nice enough guy. But he still goes on about the "scholarship on both sides of the debate" and in his post he dismisses the churches who have accepted gay people and march in the parade. Apparently apologising with a t-shirt while belonging to a group that still insists that gay people are sinners is better than belonging to a church that doesn't see being gay as a sin at all, because his style of reconciliation is better than acceptance.
It seems like he's actually going to meet up with some gay people to chat. I hope he's not trying to get them to attend Marin group seminars or proselytise at them. But if he does, I hope they proselytise right back at him. He seems like the kind of guy who is halfway to considering homosexuality a neutral thing, and actually talking to some gays might help him figure that out. But for now, he's on the "we're all sinners" track, which means that he equates homosexual love with stealing, lying, murder, adultery and so on.
posted by harriet vane at 11:23 PM on July 1, 2010
It seems like he's actually going to meet up with some gay people to chat. I hope he's not trying to get them to attend Marin group seminars or proselytise at them. But if he does, I hope they proselytise right back at him. He seems like the kind of guy who is halfway to considering homosexuality a neutral thing, and actually talking to some gays might help him figure that out. But for now, he's on the "we're all sinners" track, which means that he equates homosexual love with stealing, lying, murder, adultery and so on.
posted by harriet vane at 11:23 PM on July 1, 2010
On a very individual level, I think it's admirable and courageous that each person holding one of those signs acknowledged that they did indeed have something to be sorry for.
Does that make up for the relentless hatred and intolerance spewed by the Christian right? No. But they're not apologising for Jerry Falwell; they're apologising for themselves. Were the shoe on the other foot, I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to do that.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:21 AM on July 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
Does that make up for the relentless hatred and intolerance spewed by the Christian right? No. But they're not apologising for Jerry Falwell; they're apologising for themselves. Were the shoe on the other foot, I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to do that.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:21 AM on July 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
Near the end of the parade, there were several church floats.
Yeah, NYC Pride passes a couple churches in the downtown area who have always handed out water and been supportive of the parade, as well. Higher up on the route, they pass (or used to) St. Patrick's which has always kept its doors closed to the excitement, however.
This is nice, and I think reflective of the cultural shift that has been taking and continues to take place, but this particular moment isn't all that noteworthy. It's one among many personal interchanges that are just becoming more common. Which is great.
posted by mdn at 1:36 AM on July 2, 2010
Yeah, NYC Pride passes a couple churches in the downtown area who have always handed out water and been supportive of the parade, as well. Higher up on the route, they pass (or used to) St. Patrick's which has always kept its doors closed to the excitement, however.
This is nice, and I think reflective of the cultural shift that has been taking and continues to take place, but this particular moment isn't all that noteworthy. It's one among many personal interchanges that are just becoming more common. Which is great.
posted by mdn at 1:36 AM on July 2, 2010
Isn't it funny how fundamentalist Christians are perfectly cool with things that Jesus actually condemned, like usury and the death penalty, while raging against things he never even mentioned, like homosex?
posted by Jimmy Havok at 2:19 AM on July 2, 2010 [14 favorites]
posted by Jimmy Havok at 2:19 AM on July 2, 2010 [14 favorites]
Eh these are just false-flag Christians, like those other fuckers in black that have been making the news lately.
posted by Joe Chip at 2:45 AM on July 2, 2010
posted by Joe Chip at 2:45 AM on July 2, 2010
Jimmy Havok Isn't it funny how fundamentalist Christians are perfectly cool with things that Jesus actually condemned, like usury and the death penalty, while raging against things he never even mentioned, like homosex?
It's not the least bit funny. Don't ask how, ask why. Who gains? To whose benefit is it, that Christians are distracted from performing Christianity by this nonsense and by its close relatives, anti-abortionism and anti-evolutionism?
posted by aeschenkarnos at 2:59 AM on July 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's not the least bit funny. Don't ask how, ask why. Who gains? To whose benefit is it, that Christians are distracted from performing Christianity by this nonsense and by its close relatives, anti-abortionism and anti-evolutionism?
posted by aeschenkarnos at 2:59 AM on July 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
i am with ericb on this one i'm afraid. he is scamming and making money.
posted by marienbad at 4:38 AM on July 2, 2010
posted by marienbad at 4:38 AM on July 2, 2010
For a view of how the other side thinks, the people that Marin was writing for:
The blog author's review
Reader reviews: Part 1
Reader reviews: Part 2
I don't trust Marin, although I appreciate what he's trying to do. A quote to explain why:
All of the links come from internetMonk and the late Michael Spencer. It's an interesting read for godless liberals like me, although I do believe they are not a representative sample of the evangelical right, as they tend to be more nuanced and respectful.
posted by Hactar at 4:59 AM on July 2, 2010
The blog author's review
Reader reviews: Part 1
Reader reviews: Part 2
I don't trust Marin, although I appreciate what he's trying to do. A quote to explain why:
This isn’t a book about counseling teens or strugglers. At the CStone panel discussion, Andrew was completely respectful of the Exodus ministry people who said they do NOT attempt to recruit people out but disciple those wanting to come out.Anybody who is respectful of Exodus ministry doesn't get taken completely seriously when talking about loving gay people in my book. But that's just me.
It is a book about relating to the GLBT community. It is not a book that addresses the “problem” of homosexuality no matter who makes that call. It is a book about relating to those who are settled in their sexual identity.
All of the links come from internetMonk and the late Michael Spencer. It's an interesting read for godless liberals like me, although I do believe they are not a representative sample of the evangelical right, as they tend to be more nuanced and respectful.
posted by Hactar at 4:59 AM on July 2, 2010
"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
On the other hand, as Malcolm X said, "You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress."
posted by Legomancer at 6:53 AM on July 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, as Malcolm X said, "You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress."
posted by Legomancer at 6:53 AM on July 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
See, here in Key West, we have a random guy who people here refer to as Mr Hate
Oh snap, I just saw that guy on Duval a couple of weeks ago. He was holding a sign that said "GOD SENT THE OIL". I think there was an anti-gay thing too. For whatever reason, the oil thing sticks in my mind more.
posted by jquinby at 8:21 AM on July 2, 2010
Oh snap, I just saw that guy on Duval a couple of weeks ago. He was holding a sign that said "GOD SENT THE OIL". I think there was an anti-gay thing too. For whatever reason, the oil thing sticks in my mind more.
posted by jquinby at 8:21 AM on July 2, 2010
The key to this is a lot of Christians coming out and admitting a double standard; that a lot of churches have made a big stink about one "sin" that was socially/religiously acceptable to dislike, while getting along just fine with divorced folk and non-Christians and whoever else was riding in the sin basket. Christians can believe all sorts of things are sins and yet be totally accepting of people committing them, and I think acknowledging the disproportion of the fuss about one "sin" in particular is a healthy step, although admittedly, seeing this whole debacle put to rest would be preferred.
posted by redsparkler at 11:46 AM on July 2, 2010
posted by redsparkler at 11:46 AM on July 2, 2010
This is like the world war 2 christmas soccer game. They're just going to go back to killing each other at midnight.
wait
posted by tehloki at 1:47 PM on July 2, 2010
wait
posted by tehloki at 1:47 PM on July 2, 2010
Oh snap, I just saw that guy on Duval a couple of weeks ago. He was holding a sign that said "GOD SENT THE OIL". I think there was an anti-gay thing too. For whatever reason, the oil thing sticks in my mind more.
And here you go. Featuring local drag star Gina Maseratti blowing Mr Hate a kiss, a typical day in Key West.
Photos by visitors ensue.
—
You can see how the signs are designed to immediately hurt people as deeply and painfully as possible. The first time I saw the one about Matt Shepard it stopped me in my tracks and completely took my breath away. I thought I had been stabbed.
On the distinctly plus side, that one sign makes people ask about him who don't know who Matthew Sheppard is . So there you go. In that way, he is doing more good for our cause—and that cause is civil rights, equality, and diversity—than he possibly realizes.
posted by Mike Mongo at 9:35 PM on July 2, 2010
And here you go. Featuring local drag star Gina Maseratti blowing Mr Hate a kiss, a typical day in Key West.
Photos by visitors ensue.
—
You can see how the signs are designed to immediately hurt people as deeply and painfully as possible. The first time I saw the one about Matt Shepard it stopped me in my tracks and completely took my breath away. I thought I had been stabbed.
On the distinctly plus side, that one sign makes people ask about him who don't know who Matthew Sheppard is . So there you go. In that way, he is doing more good for our cause—and that cause is civil rights, equality, and diversity—than he possibly realizes.
posted by Mike Mongo at 9:35 PM on July 2, 2010
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That said, true contrition requires a change in behavior.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 5:39 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]