Squeal Like a Pig
August 24, 2010 5:33 PM Subscribe
This year is the 40th anniversary of the publication of Deliverance. "Dickey wrote about men, neither dudes nor (although they were fathers) dads. The men in “Deliverance” meet real monsters and recognize their ability to become, in Dickey’s phrase, countermonsters."
I've never been able to figure that film out, although I do recall introducing it to two friends of mine back in uni who were shocked, shocked at the treatment of Ned Beatty's character. And that Burt Reynolds looks like GI Joe.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:45 PM on August 24, 2010
posted by KokuRyu at 5:45 PM on August 24, 2010
Lets limit comments about homosexual rape and inbreeding to actual discussion of the book or film.
Oh, so this thread gets to be the exception?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:45 PM on August 24, 2010 [13 favorites]
Oh, so this thread gets to be the exception?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:45 PM on August 24, 2010 [13 favorites]
Interesting that the movie came out only two years after the book.
posted by smackfu at 5:49 PM on August 24, 2010
posted by smackfu at 5:49 PM on August 24, 2010
Lets limit comments about homosexual rape and inbreeding to actual discussion of the book or film.
I've always felt ashamed that I have no deeper understanding of the story than that.
I would be honestly grateful if someone could explain the story's relevance to me.
posted by nola at 5:52 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've always felt ashamed that I have no deeper understanding of the story than that.
I would be honestly grateful if someone could explain the story's relevance to me.
posted by nola at 5:52 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Interesting that the movie came out only two years after the book.
"Interesting" or..."incestesting"?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:55 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
"Interesting" or..."incestesting"?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:55 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
I've always felt ashamed that I have no deeper understanding of the story than that.
I would be honestly grateful if someone could explain the story's relevance to me.
My read on it has always been that a key theme is the idea of industrial society (and/or civilization in general) emasculating men in some fundamental way - and that while some men lament this (as Burt Reynolds' character does in various short he-man soliliquys throughout the first half of the film), it's not necessarily a bad thing.
These guys don't have the skills to exist in the wild for more than a couple of days, and even then they need all manner of industrially produced accoutrements to get by. In the opening sequences, they're clearly soft, both physically and emotionally. Comfortable and unchallenged, easy in their creature comforts. And when they finally meet the face of uncivilized man in the person of their attackers in the wilderness, they are given a brutal crash course in their own vulnerability. But in the end, it's those civilization-made tools and skills - a gun, the socioeconomic status to hide the body walk away from a murder scene without legal consequence because of the far lower status of the murdered - that keep them alive, not their wilderness survival skills.
The fact that they're navigating a river valley that will soon be flooded by a hydroelectric plant's dam has always struck me as reinforcing this theme.
posted by gompa at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2010 [41 favorites]
I would be honestly grateful if someone could explain the story's relevance to me.
My read on it has always been that a key theme is the idea of industrial society (and/or civilization in general) emasculating men in some fundamental way - and that while some men lament this (as Burt Reynolds' character does in various short he-man soliliquys throughout the first half of the film), it's not necessarily a bad thing.
These guys don't have the skills to exist in the wild for more than a couple of days, and even then they need all manner of industrially produced accoutrements to get by. In the opening sequences, they're clearly soft, both physically and emotionally. Comfortable and unchallenged, easy in their creature comforts. And when they finally meet the face of uncivilized man in the person of their attackers in the wilderness, they are given a brutal crash course in their own vulnerability. But in the end, it's those civilization-made tools and skills - a gun, the socioeconomic status to hide the body walk away from a murder scene without legal consequence because of the far lower status of the murdered - that keep them alive, not their wilderness survival skills.
The fact that they're navigating a river valley that will soon be flooded by a hydroelectric plant's dam has always struck me as reinforcing this theme.
posted by gompa at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2010 [41 favorites]
Nothing personal. But after today's Congo rape and cat torture posts, I find myself wishing you had chosen a different title.
Dickey has never struck me as more significant a novelist than, say, Irwin Shaw. But if Deliverance is the "literature" you've tagged this post with, wouldn't it merit the dignity of a less sensational title?
If I was making an anniversary post about Se7en as a classic work of cinema, I wouldn't title the post "What's In The Box?"
Just saying.
posted by Joe Beese at 6:02 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
Dickey has never struck me as more significant a novelist than, say, Irwin Shaw. But if Deliverance is the "literature" you've tagged this post with, wouldn't it merit the dignity of a less sensational title?
If I was making an anniversary post about Se7en as a classic work of cinema, I wouldn't title the post "What's In The Box?"
Just saying.
posted by Joe Beese at 6:02 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
i found both the film and the book really interesting only because it was one of those texts that made clear how terrorfied men were about dropping down in class, and about the obsession they have about anal penetration as the ultimate punishment, and lastly, how the anality/pentrative sexuality is often tied into discourses of class or race. it is basically in the canon only because of the culture's obsession with these intersections (Cf Spike Lee's 25th Hour)
posted by PinkMoose at 6:03 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:03 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
I couldn't resist the title, my lifelong identification of a movie I saw when I was young. my apologies to those who were offended. Let's imagine I titled it Dueling Banjos.
posted by Xurando at 6:07 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Xurando at 6:07 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just as the whole of The Crying Game has been reduced to "she's a dude" in the common consciousness, so has Deliverance been reduced to "buttsexed by hillbillies; also banjos".
posted by KChasm at 6:11 PM on August 24, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by KChasm at 6:11 PM on August 24, 2010 [12 favorites]
If there were a renaissance of DVD rentals of Se7en, on the other hand, I _would_ attempt to title a post "What's In the (Red)box???!"
posted by Earthtopus at 6:17 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Earthtopus at 6:17 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
/Shoots everyone not discussing this the right way with a hugebow and arrow, canoes off with Mayor Curley after mutually agreeing never to mention the matter ever again, is haunted by dreams of grasping MeFite hands reaching out of the water. Banjos.
posted by Artw at 6:20 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:20 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
Reading Dickey's novel was a revelation -- the film was excellent, and haunting, and exposed a teenage me to moral ambiguity in a lot of ways, but finding the book in my late 20s was my first experience of "book to film" that took me beyond "yeah, there was stuff in the novel that didn't make it into the movie" to "holy shit, the book was poetry and as good as the movie was, it wasn't a shadow of the original."
I still have that hardcover -- a decommissioned library book, if I recall -- on a shelf here somewhere. I need to read it again.
posted by Shepherd at 6:21 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
I still have that hardcover -- a decommissioned library book, if I recall -- on a shelf here somewhere. I need to read it again.
posted by Shepherd at 6:21 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, since we've gone there, let me just recount my adolescent experience of watching Deliverance in edited form one Saturday afternoon with a bunch of friends. They'd seen it before, and were particularly taken with the scene where the redneck gentlemen got the fat guy to take all his clothes off and pig squeal. Oh! How they laughed! Friends: I did not laugh. I in fact decided we should walk up the street and get some candy, possibly buy some comic books, and conveniently forget that this horrible thing was on. One of my friends, who was annoyed but who I guess also wanted some candy and comic books, accompanied me, rambling about what we had seen the whole way. Wasn't it really funny, though? And we were missing it! Because that guy was totally fat, and he was making those noises, and wouldn't it be funny to make somebody --
"I...don't think that was what was happening, dude."
"What? No, look, he was all, 'Squeee! Squeeee!' and then they were all -- "
"Dude. Why."
"What?"
"Why did they make him take off his clothes."
"What? Well...I don't know, it was funny, because...you know...he was all in his drawers, and then...then they were riding him around...and...um..."
"Dude!"
"No, it was like...you know...like in wrestling..."
"They were totally fucking that guy in the ass!"
"...no."
"Yes."
"No, it just..." (long pause) "Oh, God! OH MY GOD!!"
"Is it funny now?"
"Auggghhhhh! AUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!"
...In conclusion, what the hell Channel 43 Deliverance at 2:00 on Saturday?!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:21 PM on August 24, 2010 [28 favorites]
"I...don't think that was what was happening, dude."
"What? No, look, he was all, 'Squeee! Squeeee!' and then they were all -- "
"Dude. Why."
"What?"
"Why did they make him take off his clothes."
"What? Well...I don't know, it was funny, because...you know...he was all in his drawers, and then...then they were riding him around...and...um..."
"Dude!"
"No, it was like...you know...like in wrestling..."
"They were totally fucking that guy in the ass!"
"...no."
"Yes."
"No, it just..." (long pause) "Oh, God! OH MY GOD!!"
"Is it funny now?"
"Auggghhhhh! AUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!"
...In conclusion, what the hell Channel 43 Deliverance at 2:00 on Saturday?!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:21 PM on August 24, 2010 [28 favorites]
This thread is useless without the purty mouth tag.
posted by fish tick at 6:25 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by fish tick at 6:25 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
We can't stop here, this is banjo country.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:36 PM on August 24, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:36 PM on August 24, 2010 [6 favorites]
This is the first time I have ever seen the film shorthanded by "squeal" and/or lolbuttrape. Your sensitivity has redeemed the thread, Joe Beese.
posted by everichon at 6:44 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by everichon at 6:44 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's uncanny how many times I've heard straight guys (especially lawyers, for some reason) chuckle nervously as they remember "that scene in 'Deliverance,' dude." If I had a quarter .....
posted by blucevalo at 6:46 PM on August 24, 2010
posted by blucevalo at 6:46 PM on August 24, 2010
I really like the film but I love the novel. It is a stunning piece of work.
For those who dug it, I highly recommend Dickey's To the White Sea. The Coen Brothers screenplay adaptation (pdf) is also fantastic.
posted by dobbs at 6:47 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
For those who dug it, I highly recommend Dickey's To the White Sea. The Coen Brothers screenplay adaptation (pdf) is also fantastic.
posted by dobbs at 6:47 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
Interesting that the movie came out only two years after the book.
The book rights were bought while in galleys.
posted by dobbs at 6:48 PM on August 24, 2010
The book rights were bought while in galleys.
posted by dobbs at 6:48 PM on August 24, 2010
"Breathing life into great writing?"
(note: the name of the youtube clip is not the actual name of the skit)
posted by stifford at 6:57 PM on August 24, 2010
(note: the name of the youtube clip is not the actual name of the skit)
posted by stifford at 6:57 PM on August 24, 2010
Deliverance is a haunting film, one of those movies that you hate to watch but can't stop.
The turning point for me is always the dueling banjo scene. Billy Redden scared the heck out of me. When they didn't turn back at that point, all I could think was "WTF, guys, go home and have a beer!"
posted by HuronBob at 7:09 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
The turning point for me is always the dueling banjo scene. Billy Redden scared the heck out of me. When they didn't turn back at that point, all I could think was "WTF, guys, go home and have a beer!"
posted by HuronBob at 7:09 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Many years ago in the early days of the decade, a mate and I subjected a third friend to a double feature of Deliverance, backed by Meet the Feebles after we learned that although he had heard of both films, he didn't know anything about them other than that they were supposed to be great.
Our pitch was "You'll like Deliverance; it's got Burt Reynolds in it! And Feebles is by the same guy that made The Frighteners, but it's like a Kiwi version of The Muppet Show!"
A couple of hours playing videogames, drinking beer and tequila, and then we put the first tape on.
It's nearly ten years down the road, and he still doesn't trust us to pick movies for him.
posted by MarchHare at 7:19 PM on August 24, 2010 [6 favorites]
Our pitch was "You'll like Deliverance; it's got Burt Reynolds in it! And Feebles is by the same guy that made The Frighteners, but it's like a Kiwi version of The Muppet Show!"
A couple of hours playing videogames, drinking beer and tequila, and then we put the first tape on.
It's nearly ten years down the road, and he still doesn't trust us to pick movies for him.
posted by MarchHare at 7:19 PM on August 24, 2010 [6 favorites]
I edited a totally unfair version of Deliverance as a teaser for a film I wanted to direct. But it was easy to do because the film is hardly subtle. It relies very strongly on a bunch of southern gothic stereotypes. I enjoy it, more or less, but mostly for the schadenfreude of a bunch of effete dude ranch guys caught in a rural situation which goes horribly wrong. Personally speaking, I've been there. In the film, Reynolds emerges as the ?hero? because he's willing to go where the other guys won't. But he's no hero.
These days -- and don't think I haven't got the treatment written -- Deliverance would be set in the inner city, or possibly Iraq.
posted by unSane at 7:28 PM on August 24, 2010
These days -- and don't think I haven't got the treatment written -- Deliverance would be set in the inner city, or possibly Iraq.
posted by unSane at 7:28 PM on August 24, 2010
Dickey's cameo as the sheriff is one of my favourite cameos ever.
"Don't ever do nothin' like this again"
Indeed.
posted by showmethecalvino at 7:29 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Don't ever do nothin' like this again"
Indeed.
posted by showmethecalvino at 7:29 PM on August 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Gompa, my take on the film is pretty much in line with yours. But what about the dueling banjos scene? I've had problems putting that scene in line with the rest of the movie.
My first thought: the scene seems to imply that the "wild" men and "modern" men were essentially the same, in that they could both perform, appreciate, and enjoy the same music. I recall both players challenging each other and then grinning at the climax of the song.
But, at the end, the young country boy refused to shake the older city man's hand. So what seemed like a bridging experience was nipped in the bud.
My second thought: the boy is reacting to the co-opting of "his" culture. He's impressed the city man can play a rollicking, challenging piece of bluegrass, but that doesn't mean he understands the culture behind the music. (Or something like that? Maybe he feels the city folk are "slumming" and feels insulted?) This seems to be reinforced by the fact that the country folk were dancing, ergo actually enjoying the music, while the city folk just smiled, being just amused (if I recall that correctly).
In short, the men from the city want to play the music, ride the river, and act like they're "natural" folk, but they're obviously not.
I'd love to read anyone's thoughts.
posted by Anephim at 7:31 PM on August 24, 2010
My first thought: the scene seems to imply that the "wild" men and "modern" men were essentially the same, in that they could both perform, appreciate, and enjoy the same music. I recall both players challenging each other and then grinning at the climax of the song.
But, at the end, the young country boy refused to shake the older city man's hand. So what seemed like a bridging experience was nipped in the bud.
My second thought: the boy is reacting to the co-opting of "his" culture. He's impressed the city man can play a rollicking, challenging piece of bluegrass, but that doesn't mean he understands the culture behind the music. (Or something like that? Maybe he feels the city folk are "slumming" and feels insulted?) This seems to be reinforced by the fact that the country folk were dancing, ergo actually enjoying the music, while the city folk just smiled, being just amused (if I recall that correctly).
In short, the men from the city want to play the music, ride the river, and act like they're "natural" folk, but they're obviously not.
I'd love to read anyone's thoughts.
posted by Anephim at 7:31 PM on August 24, 2010
Anephim,
My take on the banjo scene was, simply the communication from the kid that "no matter what connection you feel you have with this world, it is tenuous and acceptance will not happen".
posted by HuronBob at 7:35 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
My take on the banjo scene was, simply the communication from the kid that "no matter what connection you feel you have with this world, it is tenuous and acceptance will not happen".
posted by HuronBob at 7:35 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
So it's actually a good movie, eh?
I'll have to watch it, then. Thanks, I guess.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:45 PM on August 24, 2010
I'll have to watch it, then. Thanks, I guess.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:45 PM on August 24, 2010
Really -- the book means a lot more to me than the movie and wish there was more discussion of that here. The extended bit where the main character is climbing the rock face was absolutely gripping and disorienting. The whole book accomplishes something rare -- it doesn't put you in the character's headspace so much as make you witness to how extremity can warp reality and become a sort of religious experience. Enthralling book. To me very little to do with rape or hillbillies and more like a book going for and achieving a sustained narcotic effect.
posted by matthewstopheles at 7:47 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by matthewstopheles at 7:47 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
These days -- and don't think I haven't got the treatment written -- Deliverance would be set in the inner city, or possibly Iraq.
Deliverance is the (tacit) adaptation of Heart of Darkness that opens the 1970s; Apocalypse Now is the one that closes it.
posted by holgate at 7:55 PM on August 24, 2010 [11 favorites]
Deliverance is the (tacit) adaptation of Heart of Darkness that opens the 1970s; Apocalypse Now is the one that closes it.
posted by holgate at 7:55 PM on August 24, 2010 [11 favorites]
I'd love to read anyone's thoughts.
Maybe I'm just a philistine, but I thought it was just that the kid was meant to be autistic.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:58 PM on August 24, 2010
Maybe I'm just a philistine, but I thought it was just that the kid was meant to be autistic.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:58 PM on August 24, 2010
Deliverance is the (tacit) adaptation of Heart of Darkness that opens the 1970s; Apocalypse Now is the one that closes it.
Beautifully put. My mind is wandering the path in between those two now.
posted by showmethecalvino at 8:13 PM on August 24, 2010
Beautifully put. My mind is wandering the path in between those two now.
posted by showmethecalvino at 8:13 PM on August 24, 2010
Didn't the kid also have an unconventional number of fingers? That'll mess with a handshake.
posted by Jilder at 8:45 PM on August 24, 2010
posted by Jilder at 8:45 PM on August 24, 2010
But what about the dueling banjos scene? I've had problems putting that scene in line with the rest of the movie.
Yeah, the dueling banjos . . .
Much as plain ole autism or some sort of inbreeding side effect might explain it, there's way too much allegorical stuff in the movie to read such a pointed moment as simple naturalistic interaction.
Probably more like: You city folk might play a banjo, you might know our music, we might even share a moment of joy together, and you might think that unites us in some kind of common humanity that glosses over the criminal inequality between me and you. But picking a tune on a banjo doesn't make you one of us, because there's no way an inbred illiterate freak like me could ever be one of you. That we-are-one kumbaya shit might fly in the city, but not out here close to the natural way of things. Because you aren't from here and never will be, no way in hell I'm shaking your hand.
Something roughly like that, anyway.
posted by gompa at 8:49 PM on August 24, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yeah, the dueling banjos . . .
Much as plain ole autism or some sort of inbreeding side effect might explain it, there's way too much allegorical stuff in the movie to read such a pointed moment as simple naturalistic interaction.
Probably more like: You city folk might play a banjo, you might know our music, we might even share a moment of joy together, and you might think that unites us in some kind of common humanity that glosses over the criminal inequality between me and you. But picking a tune on a banjo doesn't make you one of us, because there's no way an inbred illiterate freak like me could ever be one of you. That we-are-one kumbaya shit might fly in the city, but not out here close to the natural way of things. Because you aren't from here and never will be, no way in hell I'm shaking your hand.
Something roughly like that, anyway.
posted by gompa at 8:49 PM on August 24, 2010 [5 favorites]
Or, on failure-to-preview, what HuronBob said in a single sentence.
posted by gompa at 8:56 PM on August 24, 2010
posted by gompa at 8:56 PM on August 24, 2010
I watched it recently...my impression is that the entire movie is about conflict between how modern people see the natural world vs the reality, and how they see themselves vs how they really are. The duelling banjos scene is the touchpoint in that relationship - the modern man plays the music like how he wants to see himself - an adult, with a modern guitar. The kid playing the banjo is his inner self - damaged, unsure and immature. The banjo is also the natural world, whereas the guitar is the modern world. They collide and they harmonize but they don't ultimately ally themselves with one another.
The flooding of the river and the removal of the valley is a metaphor for the loss of innocence in the men, I think. They encounter a place very different from what they were expecting - the innocence of the natural world and their tendency to retain that innocence. The inability of Jon Voigt's character to shoot the deer, but their same ability to shoot a man, marks a line where they can be humane to nature but hurtful to other men. It flips their impressions of themselves on the head - they figured they needed to fight the river but ultimately it's themselves they're fighting. The rape scene shows them that what's 'manly' is ultimately not what they were expecting at all.
posted by jimmythefish at 9:20 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
The flooding of the river and the removal of the valley is a metaphor for the loss of innocence in the men, I think. They encounter a place very different from what they were expecting - the innocence of the natural world and their tendency to retain that innocence. The inability of Jon Voigt's character to shoot the deer, but their same ability to shoot a man, marks a line where they can be humane to nature but hurtful to other men. It flips their impressions of themselves on the head - they figured they needed to fight the river but ultimately it's themselves they're fighting. The rape scene shows them that what's 'manly' is ultimately not what they were expecting at all.
posted by jimmythefish at 9:20 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
Deliverance is the (tacit) adaptation of Heart of Darkness that opens the 1970s; Apocalypse Now is the one that closes it.
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
posted by mannequito at 9:38 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
posted by mannequito at 9:38 PM on August 24, 2010 [3 favorites]
The banjo vs. guitar scene is a duel, even down to the name of the song. The song is not about harmony - it is a call-and-response song they improvise.
After it is over, the guitarist, surprised that a yokel like this can play music, says something like "Wow that kid can play!" to his city friends. The banjo player to him is no more than an organ grinder monkey. Of course the kid isn't going to shake his hand.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 11:07 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
After it is over, the guitarist, surprised that a yokel like this can play music, says something like "Wow that kid can play!" to his city friends. The banjo player to him is no more than an organ grinder monkey. Of course the kid isn't going to shake his hand.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 11:07 PM on August 24, 2010 [7 favorites]
the guitarist, surprised that a yokel like this can play music, says something like "Wow that kid can play!" to his city friends. The banjo player to him is no more than an organ grinder monkey.
Agreed. The guitarist, Drew, and Ned Beatty's character Bobby are two sides of the same patronizing coin, although the latter's blatant contempt for the hillbillies is more obvious. While all the members of the party suffer, it is those two who are violated in the most drastic of ways.
"Them panties. Take 'em off." is the gotcha line for me. Christ, what a great movie.
I have a James Dickey compilation around here somewhere, don't think I ever sat down and read it. Something I will have to rectify.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:26 PM on August 24, 2010
Agreed. The guitarist, Drew, and Ned Beatty's character Bobby are two sides of the same patronizing coin, although the latter's blatant contempt for the hillbillies is more obvious. While all the members of the party suffer, it is those two who are violated in the most drastic of ways.
"Them panties. Take 'em off." is the gotcha line for me. Christ, what a great movie.
I have a James Dickey compilation around here somewhere, don't think I ever sat down and read it. Something I will have to rectify.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:26 PM on August 24, 2010
My read on it has always been that a key theme is the idea of industrial society (and/or civilization in general) emasculating men in some fundamental way
That's basically it. I think fundamental is the contrast between rule of law and culture of honor, which is a part of the Scotch/Irish tradition in Appalachia. In a wild remote place, honor is more important than law which is too far away to protect. After the first canoeist is murdered, the party face a question: go to the police (law), or fight back and revenge the death (honor). The question divides the party. Some chose to fight, and they win, others not, and they are killed. They reach the end of the river and re-enter the world of the law, almost literally surrounded by police. As the river fills up, it turns into a placid lake, like men who live in the world of laws, controlled. But tellingly, dams are man-made and won't last forever. The most haunting part of the novel.
posted by stbalbach at 11:30 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
That's basically it. I think fundamental is the contrast between rule of law and culture of honor, which is a part of the Scotch/Irish tradition in Appalachia. In a wild remote place, honor is more important than law which is too far away to protect. After the first canoeist is murdered, the party face a question: go to the police (law), or fight back and revenge the death (honor). The question divides the party. Some chose to fight, and they win, others not, and they are killed. They reach the end of the river and re-enter the world of the law, almost literally surrounded by police. As the river fills up, it turns into a placid lake, like men who live in the world of laws, controlled. But tellingly, dams are man-made and won't last forever. The most haunting part of the novel.
posted by stbalbach at 11:30 PM on August 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
The film Deliverance pretty much launched commercial whitewater rafting operations in the Southeast US. In fact, the oldest whitewater rafting companies in North Carolina and Georgia (where the movie was filmed) were started by guys who were whitewater consultants/stunt men for the film, with the first clients being people who had seen the film and wanted to run the same rapids.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:34 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 11:34 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
bluedaisy: the oldest whitewater rafting companies in North Carolina and Georgia (where the movie was filmed) were started by guys who were whitewater consultants/stunt men for the film, with the first clients being people who had seen the film and wanted to run the same rapids.
Is that nutty to anybody else? A movie about outsider / city folk who go for an adventure and wind up tragically out of their depth is seen by a bunch of outsider / city folk and those people decide that they would like to go for that exact same adventure, hey that looked fun ?
posted by paisley henosis at 12:22 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Is that nutty to anybody else? A movie about outsider / city folk who go for an adventure and wind up tragically out of their depth is seen by a bunch of outsider / city folk and those people decide that they would like to go for that exact same adventure, hey that looked fun ?
posted by paisley henosis at 12:22 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Interesting James Dickey fact: he was Jimmy Carter's favourite poet and read his poem "The Strength of Fields" at his inauguration.
posted by rhymer at 1:17 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by rhymer at 1:17 AM on August 25, 2010
The quote in the NYT piece about boozing is great too:
“I am crazy about being drunk,” he wrote. “I like it like Patton liked war.”
posted by rhymer at 1:59 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
“I am crazy about being drunk,” he wrote. “I like it like Patton liked war.”
posted by rhymer at 1:59 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Thanks for this post and the comments. I now have a deeper appreciation of the movie. I saw it once, many years ago. It left some kind of impression and I even wrote a song about it, but I really couldn't process it. Not until reading this thread did I realize the nuance and depth in the story. Off to Amazon then.
posted by Danila at 2:14 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by Danila at 2:14 AM on August 25, 2010
Has anyone linked to The Dangerous World of Deliverance?
posted by pracowity at 3:39 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by pracowity at 3:39 AM on August 25, 2010
Banjos.
Jesus H. Christ, people, you would somebody just link to the damned video already.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:18 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Jesus H. Christ, people, you would somebody just link to the damned video already.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:18 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Rich Hall did a great BBC documentary recently, 'Dirty South,' about the Southern USA's depiction in fiction, Hollywood etc. Not surprising he covered Deliverance - the interesting thing that came out about was that it was based on a real event where Dickey got into trouble cannoning down a river. Except then the locals could not have been more helpful, driving him to hospital, dragging his canoe out of the river, taking him back to his car. Then he went home 'and being a writer' wondered what might have happened different.
I've probably mentioned it before but as a kid in 70s Britain the US was Deliverance... well those bits that weren't Starsky and Hutch or Kojak.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:34 AM on August 25, 2010 [5 favorites]
I've probably mentioned it before but as a kid in 70s Britain the US was Deliverance... well those bits that weren't Starsky and Hutch or Kojak.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:34 AM on August 25, 2010 [5 favorites]
Anybody else here ever meet James Dickey?
He came to my school in the mid-70s. I was part of a group in the English Department hosting a reception for him. He arrived on campus with a pretty new wife and appeared inebriated from the get-go. His general persona was like an angry porcupine--I don't want to be here, stay away.
The reading went fairly well although I heard complaints that the guy was drunk (by then I was figuring it was just the way he was). Dickey arrived at the reception a couple of hours late--now he was definitely drunk and hadn't brought the wife along. After sullenly fielding a few questions from shy English majors in a distinctly absurdist and resentful manner, he went into the host's kitchen, selected an expensive, unopened bottle of Scotch, and headed for the door. My roommate said something along the lines of "have a good evening" to him and he shoved her nearly to the floor.
He struck me as a man struggling with many internal demons.
Obviously Deliverance was a major point of focus during the few reasonable exchanges of that visit. I believe Dickey spoke to the theme of nature as a raw, overpowering force which strips away civilization's disguise and reveals the "inner man". Certainly there were threads of ostentatious virility vs. the blunt reality of backwoods culture, and the rape scene underscored that in the most visceral possible way.
The film used the initial musical encounter as a metaphor for demonstrating that although things may appear to be in harmony, the hard nut of things is that only so much can be shared. When the music ended, so did the connection.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:11 AM on August 25, 2010 [6 favorites]
He came to my school in the mid-70s. I was part of a group in the English Department hosting a reception for him. He arrived on campus with a pretty new wife and appeared inebriated from the get-go. His general persona was like an angry porcupine--I don't want to be here, stay away.
The reading went fairly well although I heard complaints that the guy was drunk (by then I was figuring it was just the way he was). Dickey arrived at the reception a couple of hours late--now he was definitely drunk and hadn't brought the wife along. After sullenly fielding a few questions from shy English majors in a distinctly absurdist and resentful manner, he went into the host's kitchen, selected an expensive, unopened bottle of Scotch, and headed for the door. My roommate said something along the lines of "have a good evening" to him and he shoved her nearly to the floor.
He struck me as a man struggling with many internal demons.
Obviously Deliverance was a major point of focus during the few reasonable exchanges of that visit. I believe Dickey spoke to the theme of nature as a raw, overpowering force which strips away civilization's disguise and reveals the "inner man". Certainly there were threads of ostentatious virility vs. the blunt reality of backwoods culture, and the rape scene underscored that in the most visceral possible way.
The film used the initial musical encounter as a metaphor for demonstrating that although things may appear to be in harmony, the hard nut of things is that only so much can be shared. When the music ended, so did the connection.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:11 AM on August 25, 2010 [6 favorites]
Read the book when I was 15 and haven't since, never saw the film. Thanks for the wonderful interpretations in the thread; you've all presented some really interesting perspectives on the book.
The Dirty South series sounds so interesting.
posted by Miko at 6:13 AM on August 25, 2010
The Dirty South series sounds so interesting.
posted by Miko at 6:13 AM on August 25, 2010
Side note: "Dueling Banjos" wasn't written for this film. It's an arrangement of an older song by Arthur Smith. IT's original title was "Feudin' Banjos."
In Southern ethnomusicoligical terms, the decision to swap out the second banjo for a guitar was no accident. It completely underscores the tension over urbanization and class.
posted by Miko at 6:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
In Southern ethnomusicoligical terms, the decision to swap out the second banjo for a guitar was no accident. It completely underscores the tension over urbanization and class.
posted by Miko at 6:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
kinnakeet: I never met the man, but I know many, many people who did.
I worked for the last eight years at the Univ. of South Carolina and was there as a student for three years prior to that, and his shadow still looms large at that school. As a teenager I was a huge fan of Deliverance and later a massive fan of his poetry (most of which I still adore) but I'm quite conflicted about the man himself.
Let me say this: I have had the great luck to meet many, many artists, some of whom are known in the vernacular of America and some whose names would be familiar to students in primary schools and the number of them that are kind, decent people is small enough to fit in one hand, and I certainly don't expect those whose work I respect to fit into my ideal of personality, but the sheer number of people in Columbia, who still shake their heads and spit on the ground just at the mention of Dickey's name, makes kinnakeet's anecdote ring very true.
Around the halls of the English dept at USC, Dickey is still mentioned in hushed tones, not merely out of respect, but to keep any older faculty from flying into a rage and telling a story about him that generally ends in one of two ways: 1) Dickey barging into their classes, drunk or 2) Dickey barging into their homes, drunk. He was very much in the Dylan Thomas mold, and while this produced some amazing work (a poem about a junkyard that by-god makes me smell the air) it made him nigh on impossible to learn from in any sense except in what not to do.
I'm not gonna go strewing any of his dirty laundry about here on the internet (the stories I've told above are already well-known) but my respect for the man has dimmed from all out love to true admiration, and I've heard many others express their feelings it was his over-the-top success with Deliverance that made him drop so far afterward, and that the cliche of that only drove him further down.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 6:51 AM on August 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
I worked for the last eight years at the Univ. of South Carolina and was there as a student for three years prior to that, and his shadow still looms large at that school. As a teenager I was a huge fan of Deliverance and later a massive fan of his poetry (most of which I still adore) but I'm quite conflicted about the man himself.
Let me say this: I have had the great luck to meet many, many artists, some of whom are known in the vernacular of America and some whose names would be familiar to students in primary schools and the number of them that are kind, decent people is small enough to fit in one hand, and I certainly don't expect those whose work I respect to fit into my ideal of personality, but the sheer number of people in Columbia, who still shake their heads and spit on the ground just at the mention of Dickey's name, makes kinnakeet's anecdote ring very true.
Around the halls of the English dept at USC, Dickey is still mentioned in hushed tones, not merely out of respect, but to keep any older faculty from flying into a rage and telling a story about him that generally ends in one of two ways: 1) Dickey barging into their classes, drunk or 2) Dickey barging into their homes, drunk. He was very much in the Dylan Thomas mold, and while this produced some amazing work (a poem about a junkyard that by-god makes me smell the air) it made him nigh on impossible to learn from in any sense except in what not to do.
I'm not gonna go strewing any of his dirty laundry about here on the internet (the stories I've told above are already well-known) but my respect for the man has dimmed from all out love to true admiration, and I've heard many others express their feelings it was his over-the-top success with Deliverance that made him drop so far afterward, and that the cliche of that only drove him further down.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 6:51 AM on August 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
For those who dug it, I highly recommend Dickey's To the White Sea. The Coen Brothers screenplay adaptation (pdf) is also fantastic.
posted by dobbs at 7:47 PM on August 24 [+] [!]
Wait, what??? What a perfect combination! Thanks for posting this.
I just bought a copy of Hart's biography, "The World as a Lie" for two bucks at Barnes and Noble. You can open that book at any point and find examples of Dickey behaving eponymously. He was pretty much a pathological liar. Some great poems, however.
posted by mecran01 at 6:59 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by dobbs at 7:47 PM on August 24 [+] [!]
Wait, what??? What a perfect combination! Thanks for posting this.
I just bought a copy of Hart's biography, "The World as a Lie" for two bucks at Barnes and Noble. You can open that book at any point and find examples of Dickey behaving eponymously. He was pretty much a pathological liar. Some great poems, however.
posted by mecran01 at 6:59 AM on August 25, 2010
The Connells' video for "Maybe" is a parody of Deliverance.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on August 25, 2010
Inner turmoil certainly has generated a lot of literature, 1f2frfbf. I had encounters with John Gardner and Allen Ginsberg that convinced me that there could be no sadder pursuit than that of the writer.
On the other hand, Jules Feiffer seemed pretty balanced but his focus was humor. Isaac Azimov was okay enough but his focus was clearly young, large-breasted women.
Dickey, though, in terms of the unhappiness he carried around with him seemed to be in a class by himself. I kinda wonder if he's at peace even now.
posted by kinnakeet at 7:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, Jules Feiffer seemed pretty balanced but his focus was humor. Isaac Azimov was okay enough but his focus was clearly young, large-breasted women.
Dickey, though, in terms of the unhappiness he carried around with him seemed to be in a class by himself. I kinda wonder if he's at peace even now.
posted by kinnakeet at 7:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I still have that hardcover -- a decommissioned library book, if I recall -- on a shelf here somewhere. I need to read it again."
I, too, have a decommissioned library hardcover copy, but I know where mine is. I keep it on the top of the toilet tank in my bathroom, dog-eared to the Good Part so that any visiting guests have potty-time reading material.
I am absolutely, 100% serious. Come visit, if you don't believe me.
posted by Eideteker at 8:43 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
I, too, have a decommissioned library hardcover copy, but I know where mine is. I keep it on the top of the toilet tank in my bathroom, dog-eared to the Good Part so that any visiting guests have potty-time reading material.
I am absolutely, 100% serious. Come visit, if you don't believe me.
posted by Eideteker at 8:43 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some great observations here!
An often-forgotten scene (immortalized by a sample in Primus' "My Name is Mud") is the part where Reynolds takes off in his rambler, blasting through the hollers (hollows), nearly getting himself and his friend killed when they go off the 'road.' "Whar you goin, city boy?" This is not your fucking playground, this is our home. Just because you're away from your laws don't mean yer away from ours (ourn).
I am dying, DYING, for Squidbillies to do a Deliverance episode. That show has such hidden depths and nuances at times that I think they could really pull it off. Would probably have to be a half-hour special season finale (like the musical they did this year). SDB/Unknown + Deliverance? Please make it happen.
posted by Eideteker at 9:01 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
An often-forgotten scene (immortalized by a sample in Primus' "My Name is Mud") is the part where Reynolds takes off in his rambler, blasting through the hollers (hollows), nearly getting himself and his friend killed when they go off the 'road.' "Whar you goin, city boy?" This is not your fucking playground, this is our home. Just because you're away from your laws don't mean yer away from ours (ourn).
I am dying, DYING, for Squidbillies to do a Deliverance episode. That show has such hidden depths and nuances at times that I think they could really pull it off. Would probably have to be a half-hour special season finale (like the musical they did this year). SDB/Unknown + Deliverance? Please make it happen.
posted by Eideteker at 9:01 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
bluedaisy: the oldest whitewater rafting companies in North Carolina and Georgia (where the movie was filmed) were started by guys who were whitewater consultants/stunt men for the film, with the first clients being people who had seen the film and wanted to run the same rapids.
paisley henosis: Is that nutty to anybody else? A movie about outsider / city folk who go for an adventure and wind up tragically out of their depth is seen by a bunch of outsider / city folk and those people decide that they would like to go for that exact same adventure, hey that looked fun ?
Nutty, I suppose, in the same way that Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil made people want to go to Savannah.
Also, I think the whole local hicks thing makes the trip more enticing to people--as if, somehow, they are risking their lives on the river and with the community around it. Something like that.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2010
paisley henosis: Is that nutty to anybody else? A movie about outsider / city folk who go for an adventure and wind up tragically out of their depth is seen by a bunch of outsider / city folk and those people decide that they would like to go for that exact same adventure, hey that looked fun ?
Nutty, I suppose, in the same way that Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil made people want to go to Savannah.
Also, I think the whole local hicks thing makes the trip more enticing to people--as if, somehow, they are risking their lives on the river and with the community around it. Something like that.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2010
Mefi Meetup in Eideteker's bathroom?
(immortalized by a sample in Primus' "My Name is Mud")
Aha, that's where that sample is from! Always wondered.
They used a similar hillbilly sample from Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 in Jerry Was A Race Car Driver ("Dawwwwggg Will Hunt!")
posted by mannequito at 5:38 PM on August 25, 2010
(immortalized by a sample in Primus' "My Name is Mud")
Aha, that's where that sample is from! Always wondered.
They used a similar hillbilly sample from Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 in Jerry Was A Race Car Driver ("Dawwwwggg Will Hunt!")
posted by mannequito at 5:38 PM on August 25, 2010
I never met James Dickey, although the stories I read hear jibe with everything I heard about the man and how he conducted himself as a person. I didn't hear these first hand, but they were well known enough to be passed around second hand. There are many amazing artists who are not nice/good people.
As for Deliverance, I have no need to see the movie. I read and loved the book. I always viewed it as finding the will and means to survive, and how that changed these "emasculated" men. The bit where he's aiming the bow and cannot afford to miss has always stuck in my head.
posted by Hactar at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2010
As for Deliverance, I have no need to see the movie. I read and loved the book. I always viewed it as finding the will and means to survive, and how that changed these "emasculated" men. The bit where he's aiming the bow and cannot afford to miss has always stuck in my head.
posted by Hactar at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2010
I've never read or seen Deliverance. My knowledge of it is pretty much the average pop culture knowledge: i.e. there is a river, hillbillies, banjos, and anal rape. But I think I've always assumed it was a version of Heart of Darkness, intentionally or unintentionally. (I'm in the minority of people who kinda like Heart of Darkness but are not real big fans of Apocalypse Now.)
But after reading this thread, I think I'm going at least watch the movie.
posted by threeturtles at 10:55 PM on August 25, 2010
But after reading this thread, I think I'm going at least watch the movie.
posted by threeturtles at 10:55 PM on August 25, 2010
threeturtles: (I'm in the minority of people who kinda like Heart of Darkness but are not real big fans of Apocalypse Now.)
What about people who liked Aguirre but were kind of wishy-washy on Apocalypse Now, how are we reprresented?
posted by paisley henosis at 11:26 PM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
What about people who liked Aguirre but were kind of wishy-washy on Apocalypse Now, how are we reprresented?
posted by paisley henosis at 11:26 PM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
« Older He's not Haggard, though the economy is | Jackanory time Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:42 PM on August 24, 2010 [2 favorites]