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January 17, 2011 4:40 PM Subscribe
Following 25 years of exile, and disembarking in the midst of a power vacuum, Jean Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier has returned to Haiti.
While human rights groups have called for his arrest, such a move from the acting government seems unlikely.
Baby Doc has enjoyed loyalist support throughout his exile, often enjoining him to return. Leaked Diplomatic cables from 2006 expressed U.S. concern over his destabilizing potential. Baby Doc says he's only there to help.
While human rights groups have called for his arrest, such a move from the acting government seems unlikely.
Baby Doc has enjoyed loyalist support throughout his exile, often enjoining him to return. Leaked Diplomatic cables from 2006 expressed U.S. concern over his destabilizing potential. Baby Doc says he's only there to help.
Nobody puts Baby in the corner!
posted by Joe Beese at 4:54 PM on January 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Joe Beese at 4:54 PM on January 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
I'm just glad Doakes isn't alive to see this.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:57 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:57 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
The lwas weep.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:58 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:58 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Jesus, can things get any worse for that poor benighted country?
posted by jokeefe at 5:01 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 5:01 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Bad. Gotta be bad.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:04 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:04 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sorry if I was too soon. Believe me, that guy really tests my belief that no one deserves cholera. I wholeheartedly agree he's a disaster in his own right.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:06 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:06 PM on January 17, 2011
OK. Here's a chance for a CIA assassination to do some good. C'mon CIA!
posted by mr_roboto at 5:07 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by mr_roboto at 5:07 PM on January 17, 2011
I was on this night before, he will be out of the country in 72 hours. He justs want to build some things and have a look-see.
TIA.
posted by clavdivs at 5:14 PM on January 17, 2011
TIA.
posted by clavdivs at 5:14 PM on January 17, 2011
Meanwhile Aristide sits exiled in South Africa. Fuck this entire goddamn geopolitical system.
posted by The White Hat at 5:23 PM on January 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by The White Hat at 5:23 PM on January 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Um, Aristide isn't exactly a saint either. His clerical background notwithstanding.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:28 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by leotrotsky at 5:28 PM on January 17, 2011
Tonton Macoute recruiting is probably already underway. I saw a young man interviewed earlier who said he heard that Baby Doc would bring jobs to the country. Ugh. Poor Haiti.
posted by msali at 5:44 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by msali at 5:44 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've had a hard time understanding the ins and outs of Aristede's ouster. My impression is that another democratically elected leader was disliked and subsequently replaced by Western powers, and Canada in particular playing a shameful role.
I'd be interested in easy to digest links from either leotrotsky or The White Hat...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 6:02 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'd be interested in easy to digest links from either leotrotsky or The White Hat...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 6:02 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Busy cramming for stupid physiology exam tomorrow. Much obliged if someone could pick up my slack. Looking at you, 133tpolicywonk.
posted by The White Hat at 6:12 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by The White Hat at 6:12 PM on January 17, 2011
Haiti does not need his help. I have a deep sense of foreboding.
posted by arcticseal at 6:33 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by arcticseal at 6:33 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
He'll be out in 3 days. So really, there's nothing concrete that a country can do (short of making him disappear). But I doubt that will happen.
They could put pressure on the leadership to have him arrested, but I doubt it will work.
Ugh. What a slimeball.
He'll probably come back a few times to get support, and then run back to France. And then, when Haiti is rebuilt to a semi-functional state, he'll come back for good and take over.
Fucking cockroach.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:44 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
They could put pressure on the leadership to have him arrested, but I doubt it will work.
Ugh. What a slimeball.
He'll probably come back a few times to get support, and then run back to France. And then, when Haiti is rebuilt to a semi-functional state, he'll come back for good and take over.
Fucking cockroach.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:44 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Why would the CIA assassinate him? This is going to be great for ratings.
posted by swift at 6:56 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by swift at 6:56 PM on January 17, 2011
Ah, geez, why does Haiti get the shaft? Why doesn't a compassionate government adopt it?
posted by five fresh fish at 6:59 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by five fresh fish at 6:59 PM on January 17, 2011
Busy cramming for stupid physiology
Those are brutal from what I hear. I could check back in a few days...
Best of luck!
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 7:02 PM on January 17, 2011
Those are brutal from what I hear. I could check back in a few days...
Best of luck!
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 7:02 PM on January 17, 2011
why does Haiti get the shaft?
Haven't you heard? It was their pact with the devil, of course!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:05 PM on January 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Haven't you heard? It was their pact with the devil, of course!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:05 PM on January 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah - tags...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 7:06 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 7:06 PM on January 17, 2011
Jesus, can everyone here really be so removed from reality? Haiti is completely out of the control of Haitians right now and it is a living hell in many places now. In that context, Duvalier seems like a savior to a large portion of the population. Even many people here in the States who are Haitian and have lived here for a some time speak about wanting Duvalier back. The idea is for the sake of their families living there.
Yes, Duvalier-led government was a dictatorship. Yes, it was bad for many. But for most it was regular meals and a safe system that was understandable. In many civilizations, a consistent government is preferable to no government.
An constant state of chaos enables things like such as Duvalier returning to happen. When you are in chaos, any order is better than none at all.
Duvalier bad, yes, sure. And so is starvation and uncontrollable surroundings. When the choice is relentless havoc or food, work, and a sense of balance, a number of us choose the latter.
I won't even get into the cultural differences between Haitians and non-Haitians except to say that I don't understand Haiti but I understand it is its own place with its own people and culture and desires and needs. They are not ours. They are their own.
My point is this. Duvalier as a leader is not simply "bad" or "evil" or "wrong". It is a style of management. For instance, how Republicans in the US behave like serfs defending the rights of an aristocracy. The sort of government Republicans represent is a management style. In the face of a present order, it is incongruous and unhealthy no matter how popular.
However, the moment the US went into a chaos state—September 11, 2001—Republicanism became the order of the day. At the time for the greatest number of people, it was the most desired style of management.
Likewise, however a better style of governing exists besides Duvalier's, it does not exist in Haiti. People tell me of people there helping who live in fenced guarded compounds with showers and amenities but who go out daily to help Haitians and Haiti. Imagine. You wake up safe and sound, get dressed for work, then check into chaos for a few hours. When your shift is over, you check out and go back to a compound of sanity. Haitians who actually live in Haiti don't have that luxury; there is no check-in, check-out.
With all the money and attention which has been paid to Haiti, it is within reason that a respect and honor of the culture would be instilled in those offering assistance. So how come we still see people who are supposed to be over there to help bossing people around while holding weapons and generally behaving culturally superior? Answer: Because it is a chaos.
Duvalier does not represent good to people in that setting, he represents an understandable reality. And in the face of unrelenting disorder, give a moment to try and imagine how that would seem welcome.
posted by humannaire at 7:07 PM on January 17, 2011 [13 favorites]
Yes, Duvalier-led government was a dictatorship. Yes, it was bad for many. But for most it was regular meals and a safe system that was understandable. In many civilizations, a consistent government is preferable to no government.
An constant state of chaos enables things like such as Duvalier returning to happen. When you are in chaos, any order is better than none at all.
Duvalier bad, yes, sure. And so is starvation and uncontrollable surroundings. When the choice is relentless havoc or food, work, and a sense of balance, a number of us choose the latter.
I won't even get into the cultural differences between Haitians and non-Haitians except to say that I don't understand Haiti but I understand it is its own place with its own people and culture and desires and needs. They are not ours. They are their own.
My point is this. Duvalier as a leader is not simply "bad" or "evil" or "wrong". It is a style of management. For instance, how Republicans in the US behave like serfs defending the rights of an aristocracy. The sort of government Republicans represent is a management style. In the face of a present order, it is incongruous and unhealthy no matter how popular.
However, the moment the US went into a chaos state—September 11, 2001—Republicanism became the order of the day. At the time for the greatest number of people, it was the most desired style of management.
Likewise, however a better style of governing exists besides Duvalier's, it does not exist in Haiti. People tell me of people there helping who live in fenced guarded compounds with showers and amenities but who go out daily to help Haitians and Haiti. Imagine. You wake up safe and sound, get dressed for work, then check into chaos for a few hours. When your shift is over, you check out and go back to a compound of sanity. Haitians who actually live in Haiti don't have that luxury; there is no check-in, check-out.
With all the money and attention which has been paid to Haiti, it is within reason that a respect and honor of the culture would be instilled in those offering assistance. So how come we still see people who are supposed to be over there to help bossing people around while holding weapons and generally behaving culturally superior? Answer: Because it is a chaos.
Duvalier does not represent good to people in that setting, he represents an understandable reality. And in the face of unrelenting disorder, give a moment to try and imagine how that would seem welcome.
posted by humannaire at 7:07 PM on January 17, 2011 [13 favorites]
Haven't you heard? It was their pact with the devil, of course!
Exactly. I hear this so much it makes me cry, flapjax. The way it is told, as if Haiti itself stood up on legs of land and stone and shook hands with the Devil. As if.
posted by humannaire at 7:15 PM on January 17, 2011
Exactly. I hear this so much it makes me cry, flapjax. The way it is told, as if Haiti itself stood up on legs of land and stone and shook hands with the Devil. As if.
posted by humannaire at 7:15 PM on January 17, 2011
thanks, humannaire. i wanted to say the same thing but couldn't say it very well. it's not like they're doing just fine without him.
maybe we should let the haiti decide if they want him back.
posted by lester at 7:23 PM on January 17, 2011
maybe we should let the haiti decide if they want him back.
posted by lester at 7:23 PM on January 17, 2011
There's a special place in my heart for totalitarian apologists. Keep on keepin' on, guys.
Haven't you heard? It was their pact with the devil, of course!
I think what Robertson was alluding to was the ascendancy of the Vodou religion during the Hatian revolution. To his medieval muddle of a worldview any non-abrahamic faith is Satanism; especially if it involves dancing and dancing and warm climates. He may not actually care about their impudent overthrow of colonialism per se.
I hear this so much it makes me cry, flapjax.
From whom? I didn't think it was actually repeated anywhere outside of Pat's private echo chamber. Not snark: I'm genuinely interested.
posted by clarknova at 7:41 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Haven't you heard? It was their pact with the devil, of course!
I think what Robertson was alluding to was the ascendancy of the Vodou religion during the Hatian revolution. To his medieval muddle of a worldview any non-abrahamic faith is Satanism; especially if it involves dancing and dancing and warm climates. He may not actually care about their impudent overthrow of colonialism per se.
I hear this so much it makes me cry, flapjax.
From whom? I didn't think it was actually repeated anywhere outside of Pat's private echo chamber. Not snark: I'm genuinely interested.
posted by clarknova at 7:41 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Torture: it's a management style.
posted by leonard horner at 7:49 PM on January 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by leonard horner at 7:49 PM on January 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Murder: a way to lead.
posted by leonard horner at 7:53 PM on January 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by leonard horner at 7:53 PM on January 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
He may not actually care about their impudent overthrow of colonialism per se.
Oh, I think Robertson had some very real-world, modern-era political ideas and opinions about those revolutionary uppity negroes. Fostered, it is said, by his ultra-conservative, racist father, Senator Absalom Willis Robertson
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:01 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Oh, I think Robertson had some very real-world, modern-era political ideas and opinions about those revolutionary uppity negroes. Fostered, it is said, by his ultra-conservative, racist father, Senator Absalom Willis Robertson
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:01 PM on January 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
The Haitians are just grateful it's not Joe Miller or Christine O'Donnell.
posted by Xoebe at 8:09 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by Xoebe at 8:09 PM on January 17, 2011
Jesus, can everyone here really be so removed from reality?
posted by clavdivs at 8:19 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by clavdivs at 8:19 PM on January 17, 2011
Republicanism (whatever that is) became the order of the day after Sept. 11? Democrats didn't do badly in Congress after that time, but had previously, and also won the White House. The modern GOP brand of conservatism has been the primary force in public policy since the election of Ronald Reagan, with Clinton providing only a brief reaction and co-opting/admixture of GOP conservative-led ideas. Electorally, however, we're in a holding pattern nationally, with takeovers by both sides possible, but demographics not on the conservative's long-term side unless they quickly adapt. We've been in this holding pattern for a long time now, no matter the GOP conservatives' success in pushing policy ideas and debates into the mainstream.
Back to Haiti.
posted by raysmj at 8:28 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Back to Haiti.
posted by raysmj at 8:28 PM on January 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ah, geez, why does Haiti get the shaft? Why doesn't a compassionate government adopt it?
Well, we tried that. It was called the Ottawa Initiative.
Sez Wikipedia:
The Ottawa Initiative on Haiti or simply the Ottawa Initiative,[1] was a conference that took place in Montreal on 31 January and 1 February 2003, to decide the future of Haiti's government, though no Haitian government officials were invited. The conference was attended by Canadian, French, and U.S. and Latin American officials. What exactly transpired is difficult to say, since Canada is keeping the documents that came out of this conference secret.
Paternalism, interference and benign neglect have all contributed to this situation. Haitians don't need to be re-colonized.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:11 PM on January 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Well, we tried that. It was called the Ottawa Initiative.
Sez Wikipedia:
The Ottawa Initiative on Haiti or simply the Ottawa Initiative,[1] was a conference that took place in Montreal on 31 January and 1 February 2003, to decide the future of Haiti's government, though no Haitian government officials were invited. The conference was attended by Canadian, French, and U.S. and Latin American officials. What exactly transpired is difficult to say, since Canada is keeping the documents that came out of this conference secret.
Paternalism, interference and benign neglect have all contributed to this situation. Haitians don't need to be re-colonized.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:11 PM on January 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
So because paternalistic dinks screwed it up, we shouldn't try again?
posted by five fresh fish at 9:19 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by five fresh fish at 9:19 PM on January 17, 2011
back to what Ray? that baby doc is trying to steal back Haiti? or that the country is co-opted by everyone...phew, MLK threads get a handful of comments, and alot of them fucking rotten and you want more from filterines to garner more pontifications of distress? Save it or write up a solution?
Perhaps something democratic is in order? (whatever that is)
posted by clavdivs at 9:19 PM on January 17, 2011
Perhaps something democratic is in order? (whatever that is)
posted by clavdivs at 9:19 PM on January 17, 2011
So because paternalistic dinks screwed it up, we shouldn't try again?
not try again ever.
posted by clavdivs at 9:21 PM on January 17, 2011
not try again ever.
posted by clavdivs at 9:21 PM on January 17, 2011
So because paternalistic dinks screwed it up, we shouldn't try again?
Not sure if you're being serious here, but I am. We (Canada, US, et al) are the paternalistic dinks that screwed up Haiti in the first place.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:27 PM on January 17, 2011
Not sure if you're being serious here, but I am. We (Canada, US, et al) are the paternalistic dinks that screwed up Haiti in the first place.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:27 PM on January 17, 2011
Imagine. You wake up safe and sound, get dressed for work, then check into chaos for a few hours. When your shift is over, you check out and go back to a compound of sanity.
Whew, thanks for that. For a while I felt bad that I wasn't volunteering in Haiti. Now that I see how hypocritical it is, I feel much better about staying home instead.
posted by vorpal bunny at 10:13 PM on January 17, 2011
Whew, thanks for that. For a while I felt bad that I wasn't volunteering in Haiti. Now that I see how hypocritical it is, I feel much better about staying home instead.
posted by vorpal bunny at 10:13 PM on January 17, 2011
Haiti is like a tinderbox that every so often the US says, hey, there's something going on there! Toss a couple of lighted torches at it and let's see what's going on!
We haven't done the country much good, and don't expect we ever will. Even when we mean well. We gave them millions in the 60s, and Papa Doc misappropriated it to train his Tonton Macoute private occult paramilitary army, which murdered political opponents and left their bodies in public for display, among other acts of government terrorism against its own people.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:19 PM on January 17, 2011
We haven't done the country much good, and don't expect we ever will. Even when we mean well. We gave them millions in the 60s, and Papa Doc misappropriated it to train his Tonton Macoute private occult paramilitary army, which murdered political opponents and left their bodies in public for display, among other acts of government terrorism against its own people.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:19 PM on January 17, 2011
Aftenposten has posted several other cables concerning Haiti.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:41 PM on January 17, 2011
posted by jeffburdges at 10:41 PM on January 17, 2011
Astro Zombie: "... Papa Doc misappropriated it to train his Tonton Macoute private occult paramilitary army, which murdered political opponents and left their bodies in public for display, among other acts of government terrorism against its own people"
Papa Doc? Wasn't he in 8 Mile? I kid.
Baby Doc inherited power at age 19 and promptly spent money like it was unlimited while his people lived in abject poverty.
He does not need to return to the helm in Haiti.
posted by bwg at 1:48 AM on January 18, 2011
Papa Doc? Wasn't he in 8 Mile? I kid.
Baby Doc inherited power at age 19 and promptly spent money like it was unlimited while his people lived in abject poverty.
He does not need to return to the helm in Haiti.
posted by bwg at 1:48 AM on January 18, 2011
I guess he´s only in it for the money.
Haitian timeline 1957 - Present
posted by adamvasco at 1:53 AM on January 18, 2011
Haitian timeline 1957 - Present
posted by adamvasco at 1:53 AM on January 18, 2011
It's like an 80's reunion tour....
Reminds me of the song by Al Stewart, Tonton Macoute.
Come on to Haiti, you don't need a treaty
Papa Doc will do you OK
Tonton in the sun, he's polishing his gun
You'd better just stay out of his way.
Bowie, I think, also had a 1980s song with references to the Tonton Macoute, but I can't pin it down.
posted by three blind mice at 3:49 AM on January 18, 2011
Reminds me of the song by Al Stewart, Tonton Macoute.
Come on to Haiti, you don't need a treaty
Papa Doc will do you OK
Tonton in the sun, he's polishing his gun
You'd better just stay out of his way.
Bowie, I think, also had a 1980s song with references to the Tonton Macoute, but I can't pin it down.
posted by three blind mice at 3:49 AM on January 18, 2011
I guess Baby Doc needed something to do now that he's no longer Dick Cheney's adviser.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:56 AM on January 18, 2011
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:56 AM on January 18, 2011
We haven't done the country much good, and don't expect we ever will.
Well, it didn't help that France charged Haiti 17 billion euros in compensation for no longer being slaves to French business owners.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:06 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, it didn't help that France charged Haiti 17 billion euros in compensation for no longer being slaves to French business owners.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:06 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Arrested by noon on Tuesday, riots by six pm, I fear. He didn't come back without some assurances to his safety. Why did that awful man have to return?
posted by msali at 9:36 AM on January 18, 2011
posted by msali at 9:36 AM on January 18, 2011
Electorally, however, we're in a holding pattern nationally, with takeovers by both sides possible, but demographics not on the conservative's long-term side unless they quickly adapt. We've been in this holding pattern for a long time now, no matter the GOP conservatives' success in pushing policy ideas and debates into the mainstream.
A "holding pattern" isn't what I'd term the last 10+ years with GOP policy and messaging in the ascendancy (despite the temporary beating back of that ascendancy in 2006 and 2008), not to mention innumerable GOP-sponsored bills passed into law (not just "policy ideas").
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on January 18, 2011
A "holding pattern" isn't what I'd term the last 10+ years with GOP policy and messaging in the ascendancy (despite the temporary beating back of that ascendancy in 2006 and 2008), not to mention innumerable GOP-sponsored bills passed into law (not just "policy ideas").
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on January 18, 2011
Here's some good news: Baby Doc has been detained by the police. Apparently they want to know where all the money went.
Have fun explaining that one, Jean Claude!
posted by clarknova at 10:18 AM on January 18, 2011
Have fun explaining that one, Jean Claude!
posted by clarknova at 10:18 AM on January 18, 2011
Is that good news? Maybe that was his plan all along.
posted by Burhanistan
That is exactly my thought Burhanistan. I fear that this was his plan all along, and Haiti's woes will continue to spiral downwards. Why did that awful man have to come back? As if wretched poverty, earthquakes, cholera and food shortages weren't enough.
Read Edwidge Danticat's heartbreaking piece from last week's New Yorker about the anniversary of the quake, and just try and imagine that this terror revisiting from afar is not just another plague upon this already beleaguered country.
posted by msali at 12:17 PM on January 18, 2011
posted by Burhanistan
That is exactly my thought Burhanistan. I fear that this was his plan all along, and Haiti's woes will continue to spiral downwards. Why did that awful man have to come back? As if wretched poverty, earthquakes, cholera and food shortages weren't enough.
Read Edwidge Danticat's heartbreaking piece from last week's New Yorker about the anniversary of the quake, and just try and imagine that this terror revisiting from afar is not just another plague upon this already beleaguered country.
posted by msali at 12:17 PM on January 18, 2011
Who do you think he is, Emperor Palpatine? He came back so he could be detained by the ruling government so he could be freed by some Lespwa Jedi so he can trick them into becoming Macoute Lords?
Sure, he's a cunning fucker, but I don't think "being taken into custody for questioning about your past crimes" is a plot device ousted dictators prefer.
posted by clarknova at 1:25 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sure, he's a cunning fucker, but I don't think "being taken into custody for questioning about your past crimes" is a plot device ousted dictators prefer.
posted by clarknova at 1:25 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sure, he's a cunning fucker, but I don't think "being taken into custody for questioning about your past crimes" is a plot device ousted dictators prefer.
Hitler did it.
posted by clavdivs at 2:12 PM on January 18, 2011
Hitler did it.
posted by clavdivs at 2:12 PM on January 18, 2011
He wasn't a fallen state leader, and arrest was not his plan.
In other news: Duvalier is no longer "Just Visiting"
posted by clarknova at 2:26 PM on January 18, 2011
In other news: Duvalier is no longer "Just Visiting"
posted by clarknova at 2:26 PM on January 18, 2011
Sure, he's a cunning fucker, but I don't think "being taken into custody for questioning about your past crimes" is a plot device ousted dictators prefer.
Part of me thinks that he was so arrogant that he expected exile, at the worst. Another part of me thinks that he means to plan a coup and see himself installed as President. This certainly wouldn't be impossible from prison - it would be more like par for Haitian politics since he left.
posted by god hates math at 3:33 PM on January 18, 2011
Part of me thinks that he was so arrogant that he expected exile, at the worst. Another part of me thinks that he means to plan a coup and see himself installed as President. This certainly wouldn't be impossible from prison - it would be more like par for Haitian politics since he left.
posted by god hates math at 3:33 PM on January 18, 2011
That kind of gambit is for younger and hungrier men. This is a guy who's spent his sixty years wrapped in luxury. His plan probably boiled down to two main points:
a) Be put up somewhere nice by Duvalieristas now that the Swiss accounts are empty
b) Get the band back together now that the stars look right
From the Forbes article it seems he had no expectation of getting himself arrested.
Doesn't mean he won't try to roll with it, of course...
posted by clarknova at 4:35 PM on January 18, 2011
a) Be put up somewhere nice by Duvalieristas now that the Swiss accounts are empty
b) Get the band back together now that the stars look right
From the Forbes article it seems he had no expectation of getting himself arrested.
Doesn't mean he won't try to roll with it, of course...
posted by clarknova at 4:35 PM on January 18, 2011
arrest was not his plan, relaxing was. Read the trial, he knew the jig was up and hoped to get off, he got buckus and a nice little donut from the courts.
er, do you mean Palpintine or baby doc. Hitler led a revolt against the "state" of Bavaria and "fell" in the process. He ran and a chance to get to Germany but did not, he was then arrested. Went to jail wrote a book and hoodwinked the world.
he (BD) is arrested, then the people break him out, he spreads cash,
baby could have a new pair of shoes.
Chavez is not applicable IMO.
posted by clavdivs at 4:52 PM on January 18, 2011
er, do you mean Palpintine or baby doc. Hitler led a revolt against the "state" of Bavaria and "fell" in the process. He ran and a chance to get to Germany but did not, he was then arrested. Went to jail wrote a book and hoodwinked the world.
he (BD) is arrested, then the people break him out, he spreads cash,
baby could have a new pair of shoes.
Chavez is not applicable IMO.
posted by clavdivs at 4:52 PM on January 18, 2011
clarknova:
B-stan (can i stop that now b-stan!)
B-stan has a point. limited but effective. The coup: if he had designs, they would be precise yet ad-hoc. Getting arrested there is precisly what he would want. You see, time is everything in a coup...how many last week, none the less, timing, yes, Hitlers was poorly timed out and timed but he did not see the larger picture, then. Timing. Let us go to exhibit A:
The Pronunciamiento
time sorta slows done, "like a snake sunnin itself on the road"
yes, timing.
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on January 18, 2011
B-stan (can i stop that now b-stan!)
B-stan has a point. limited but effective. The coup: if he had designs, they would be precise yet ad-hoc. Getting arrested there is precisly what he would want. You see, time is everything in a coup...how many last week, none the less, timing, yes, Hitlers was poorly timed out and timed but he did not see the larger picture, then. Timing. Let us go to exhibit A:
The Pronunciamiento
time sorta slows done, "like a snake sunnin itself on the road"
yes, timing.
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on January 18, 2011
So now that Baby Doc is in custody, does anyone else want to go on about what "management style" this is, and its being as if it's encoded into Haitian genes or whatever? That was such a ridiculous thing to say.
I objected to the GOP is ruling now thing because it wasn't true, first, but GOP strength didn't suddenly come out of nowhere after Sept. 11, and even then the GOP wasn't always dominant. How we came to this place is a long, long story with many variables at work, but it can't be simplified like, It was all Sept. 11, by any stretch of the imagination. Saying that Haitians just want a corrupt strongman felt similarly simplistic and even insulting to me, ignored what led the former dictator to seek exile, probable international influence, global democratization, and the like. I say this even knowing a little something about the Caribbean and Latin American experience with what's been called bureaucratic authoritarianism, which is an old, old concept now. I'm not great authority on Haiti, but its people aren't space aliens or something.
posted by raysmj at 5:40 PM on January 18, 2011
I objected to the GOP is ruling now thing because it wasn't true, first, but GOP strength didn't suddenly come out of nowhere after Sept. 11, and even then the GOP wasn't always dominant. How we came to this place is a long, long story with many variables at work, but it can't be simplified like, It was all Sept. 11, by any stretch of the imagination. Saying that Haitians just want a corrupt strongman felt similarly simplistic and even insulting to me, ignored what led the former dictator to seek exile, probable international influence, global democratization, and the like. I say this even knowing a little something about the Caribbean and Latin American experience with what's been called bureaucratic authoritarianism, which is an old, old concept now. I'm not great authority on Haiti, but its people aren't space aliens or something.
posted by raysmj at 5:40 PM on January 18, 2011
Duvalier at the Karibe [video].
If I understand correctly, the woman is shouting, "I love you, I love you."
posted by humannaire at 9:27 PM on January 18, 2011
If I understand correctly, the woman is shouting, "I love you, I love you."
posted by humannaire at 9:27 PM on January 18, 2011
"We have nothing to hide and we are not afraid of nobody, nothing," he said, adding that the judge asked Duvalier when he was planning to leave. "If he wants to live in this country, that's his right," Georges said. "He is back to stay. He can do politics. He can come and go, do whatever he pleases as long as it is legal."
heh,
watch what happens next.
posted by clavdivs at 9:42 AM on January 19, 2011
heh,
watch what happens next.
posted by clavdivs at 9:42 AM on January 19, 2011
That was such a ridiculous thing to say.
Yeah, I wanted to address that earlier, but chose to simply address his motivation instead.
The man is directly responsible for the torture and murder of many Haitians. To call that a "management style" is incredibly insulting to the families of those that suffered under his reign. Let alone that his misuse of funds is in no small way responsible for the state the country is in right now (the earthquake notwithstanding).
If I understand correctly, the woman is shouting, "I love you, I love you."
You understand that the media doing this reporting has a vested interest in reporting that kind of reaction, right? There's no story in "Duvalier returns to Haiti; nobody really notices."
The thing about it is, the political environment in Haiti is extremely complex. There were more than 30 candidates for the currently disputed election. Sweet Mickey is a singer. Mirlande Manigat's husband was President for 6 months. Jude Celestin is essentially the hand-picked choice of Preval, but nobody knows where he came from, or anything about him, or where he got all of his money. Wyclef-Jean would have won by a landslide, had he been allowed to run, and the votes counted honestly.
And yes, there is support for the return of both Duvalier and Aristide. In November I saw graffiti in Port-au-Prince that read "Bienvenue Preziden JC Duvalier." It would an extremely bad idea, though, to think that this support is widespread.
posted by god hates math at 6:55 AM on January 20, 2011
Yeah, I wanted to address that earlier, but chose to simply address his motivation instead.
The man is directly responsible for the torture and murder of many Haitians. To call that a "management style" is incredibly insulting to the families of those that suffered under his reign. Let alone that his misuse of funds is in no small way responsible for the state the country is in right now (the earthquake notwithstanding).
If I understand correctly, the woman is shouting, "I love you, I love you."
You understand that the media doing this reporting has a vested interest in reporting that kind of reaction, right? There's no story in "Duvalier returns to Haiti; nobody really notices."
The thing about it is, the political environment in Haiti is extremely complex. There were more than 30 candidates for the currently disputed election. Sweet Mickey is a singer. Mirlande Manigat's husband was President for 6 months. Jude Celestin is essentially the hand-picked choice of Preval, but nobody knows where he came from, or anything about him, or where he got all of his money. Wyclef-Jean would have won by a landslide, had he been allowed to run, and the votes counted honestly.
And yes, there is support for the return of both Duvalier and Aristide. In November I saw graffiti in Port-au-Prince that read "Bienvenue Preziden JC Duvalier." It would an extremely bad idea, though, to think that this support is widespread.
posted by god hates math at 6:55 AM on January 20, 2011
I want to come home too.
clarknova I cant apologize for being an ass, but we all can agree that baby doc needs to go away, good post...a needed post
posted by clavdivs at 10:33 AM on January 20, 2011
clarknova I cant apologize for being an ass, but we all can agree that baby doc needs to go away, good post...a needed post
posted by clavdivs at 10:33 AM on January 20, 2011
You understand that the media doing this reporting has a vested interest in reporting that kind of reaction, right? There's no story in "Duvalier returns to Haiti; nobody really notices."
You understand that "the media" is doing no such thing, right? That "the media" is not reporting on any real support for Duvalier. That that is a YT-uploaded video with (at the time of this writing) under 200 views?
It would an extremely bad idea, though, to think that this support is widespread.
No story, bad idea or otherwise, I am not making a case for it. I am explaining what is being explained to me as it comes from Haiti. Because of this dialog here on Mefi I have spread my inquiry further. What I have said is coming directly from people in Haiti.
Did you know that there is now a very noticeable problem with 13-15 year old girls being pregnant? It is because they are doing whatever they can do get food or medicine.
If you doubt that there is substantial support for Duvalier, call and ask the families who are your close friends and from Haiti (or just ask them when they call you). How you will know they are your friends is not because they call you when they need help but rather because they trust their children with you. Ask them what they think. Since these are your close friends and they trust you, they will tell you. It is not to be quoted or reported but that is understood as you are close friends.
Now, ask them why so many people support Duvalier and explain that people support Aristide, too, so what about he?
It will be explained to you that you don't understand, that in the in the 25 years since Duvalier left nothing has gone right. That under Duvalier people ate, that there was plenty of food, that there was no crime, that it was safe.
This will be explained at the same time that it is explained that Duvalier killed tens of thousands of people, that there were secret police, that people could not criticize the government.
It will further be explained that Aristide took more than Duvalier in about a third of the time, and that it was never good under him.
As they share this with you, they will say to you that if Duvalier leads again they are not against it.
This is what you will hear all day long as you call your friends who are Haitian to check on them and their families. They will also laugh in amazement that you know about Duvalier and about his returning to Haiti.
One more thing. You will be able to tell you very close friends who are Haitian because they will not suggest you go there or ask you to go there for with them. Some will. But your very close friends who are Haitian will only say, "I would love to take you to Haiti because it is beautiful but not now. I won't let you go there now."
I do not know what will happen but I do know what is happening. And whether we choose to believe that there is "widespread support for Duvalier" or not, this does not change the fact that to scoff at Duvalier returning to power would be disingenuous. It can happen and there is plenty of support for it. Not by the political but by the hungry. And in this case, the hungry will have there way whatever it may be.
In Haiti, good people are dying in droves. The people doing the dying need a stopgap. As one hasn't come from the so-called good guys, the opportunity has come to weigh options. That is what is happening now.
posted by humannaire at 5:36 PM on January 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
You understand that "the media" is doing no such thing, right? That "the media" is not reporting on any real support for Duvalier. That that is a YT-uploaded video with (at the time of this writing) under 200 views?
It would an extremely bad idea, though, to think that this support is widespread.
No story, bad idea or otherwise, I am not making a case for it. I am explaining what is being explained to me as it comes from Haiti. Because of this dialog here on Mefi I have spread my inquiry further. What I have said is coming directly from people in Haiti.
Did you know that there is now a very noticeable problem with 13-15 year old girls being pregnant? It is because they are doing whatever they can do get food or medicine.
If you doubt that there is substantial support for Duvalier, call and ask the families who are your close friends and from Haiti (or just ask them when they call you). How you will know they are your friends is not because they call you when they need help but rather because they trust their children with you. Ask them what they think. Since these are your close friends and they trust you, they will tell you. It is not to be quoted or reported but that is understood as you are close friends.
Now, ask them why so many people support Duvalier and explain that people support Aristide, too, so what about he?
It will be explained to you that you don't understand, that in the in the 25 years since Duvalier left nothing has gone right. That under Duvalier people ate, that there was plenty of food, that there was no crime, that it was safe.
This will be explained at the same time that it is explained that Duvalier killed tens of thousands of people, that there were secret police, that people could not criticize the government.
It will further be explained that Aristide took more than Duvalier in about a third of the time, and that it was never good under him.
As they share this with you, they will say to you that if Duvalier leads again they are not against it.
This is what you will hear all day long as you call your friends who are Haitian to check on them and their families. They will also laugh in amazement that you know about Duvalier and about his returning to Haiti.
One more thing. You will be able to tell you very close friends who are Haitian because they will not suggest you go there or ask you to go there for with them. Some will. But your very close friends who are Haitian will only say, "I would love to take you to Haiti because it is beautiful but not now. I won't let you go there now."
I do not know what will happen but I do know what is happening. And whether we choose to believe that there is "widespread support for Duvalier" or not, this does not change the fact that to scoff at Duvalier returning to power would be disingenuous. It can happen and there is plenty of support for it. Not by the political but by the hungry. And in this case, the hungry will have there way whatever it may be.
In Haiti, good people are dying in droves. The people doing the dying need a stopgap. As one hasn't come from the so-called good guys, the opportunity has come to weigh options. That is what is happening now.
posted by humannaire at 5:36 PM on January 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Re Aristide; US embassy cables reveal how anxious the US was to enlist Brazil to keep the deposed Jean-Bertrand Aristide out of Haiti
posted by adamvasco at 5:37 PM on January 21, 2011
posted by adamvasco at 5:37 PM on January 21, 2011
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posted by KokuRyu at 4:45 PM on January 17, 2011 [5 favorites]