In which I re-fight WW2 and lose
January 26, 2011 5:33 AM   Subscribe

 
Learning how to play HoI is about as difficult as becoming the leader of one of the combatant countries - so it's not really much of an opportunity.
posted by Joe Beese at 5:36 AM on January 26, 2011


Just checked the price of Hearts of Iron III on Steam on a whim, and noticed that the "Hearts of Iron III Complete Pack" is $56.40, which is $1.99 more than buying all the components individually ($19.99 game + $19.99 expansion + 6 * $1.99 dlc + $2.49 dlc = $54.41).

Maybe I'll just wait for a sale. I think it may have been on sale during the last holiday sale, but I didn't have a reason to pick it up then...
posted by yeoz at 5:54 AM on January 26, 2011


Maybe I'll just wait for a sale.

Why not just invade Poland?
posted by three blind mice at 6:01 AM on January 26, 2011 [12 favorites]


I had a friend who used to play the earlier versions of this all the time. He loved playing as a non-traditional country. I remember when he conquered the Nazis with Brazil. I'll let him know that this is out.
posted by charred husk at 6:02 AM on January 26, 2011


Been fallowing Paul Mason's blog (and twitter) (previously) for a while on the back of his great reports on Newsnight. I was surprised and pleased when he posted this and revealed himself as a total wargames/simulation game nerd.

Had a go with a previous version of HoI a bit back and it was too much like flying a spread-sheet but I am to go back to the latest version at some point as I've heard it's better. But I'm kinda of games at the moment after getting bored with Total War.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:02 AM on January 26, 2011


Why not just invade Poland?

He forgot Poland.
posted by empath at 6:20 AM on January 26, 2011 [4 favorites]


Funny, I can't seem to get any traction retelling my story of the Civ IV game where I played Montezuma all the way from 4000 BC, and managed to steamroll Lincoln with horse archers before he could fortify Iowa with pikemen, and the rode complete control of the western hemisphere through the early age of gunpowder, when my caravels arrived off the coast of Spain to find that the Portugese had annexed most of Europe, so I had to fight Joao all the way through to the Russian border (controlled by Genghis Khan!) and--

Hey, where are you going? I could totally pad this out to 1500 words for a column on the Beeb.
posted by Mayor West at 6:44 AM on January 26, 2011 [12 favorites]


That's because the Aztecs have an overpowered unit.
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Learning how to play HoI is about as difficult as becoming the leader of one of the combatant countries - so it's not really much of an opportunity.

Terrifyingly, HoI is considered the entry-level game in the Paradox catalog, because all you really have to do is manage the military, compared to Victoria, where you have to run an entire 19th century economy in addition to the military and political aspects of the game.
posted by Copronymus at 7:13 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Want.
posted by pompomtom at 7:26 AM on January 26, 2011


Maybe I'll just wait for a sale. I think it may have been on sale during the last holiday sale, but I didn't have a reason to pick it up then..

There was some huge Paradox bundle over the holidays with every game they have on Steam for maybe $100.

Reading this article the other day inspired me to try playing Europa Universalis III again. According to Steam my first attempt a few months ago lasted 7 minutes before I got overwhelmed and quit.
posted by ghharr at 7:27 AM on January 26, 2011


EU3 really is the crown jewel in Paradox's... uh... crown. I like the depth of the political and economic management in Vicky 2, but there's simply no substitute for EU3 when it comes to worrying about whether or not your monarch's marriage to the royals in some other country will result in a personal union, or establishing a Caribbean colony as a non-West European nation, or...

Dammit, I had to do some work today.
posted by a small part of the world at 7:35 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


the entry-level game in the Paradox catalog

Wouldn't that be Crusader Kings? Most of the turn-by-turn action is based on the organization and delegation of individual courtiers, which I find much more intuitive than grappling with inflation sliders or figuring out how many tanks to deploy to Seville.
posted by Iridic at 7:37 AM on January 26, 2011


EU3 is the most overwhelmingly complex game I have ever tried to play. I can only see being good at it if it's the only thing you ever do with your spare time.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:51 AM on January 26, 2011


Just checked the price of Hearts of Iron III on Steam on a whim, and noticed that the "Hearts of Iron III Complete Pack" is $56.40, which is $1.99 more than buying all the components individually ($19.99 game + $19.99 expansion + 6 * $1.99 dlc + $2.49 dlc = $54.41).

If it helps, none of the DLC is really worth even the two clams they want for it. Almost everyone plays in counters mode, so the sprite packs are pointless. And the music packs... eh.

You absolutely do want to spring for Semper Fi, though. It fixes a number of annoyances from the main game and removes a bit of tedious micromanagement (don't get me wrong, though... the whole game is still micro). For one thing, it gives you an "arcade" supply mode, if you don't want to worry about that as much.

HoI is every bit as engaging as it is daunting.
posted by jammer at 7:54 AM on January 26, 2011


Aw, now I want to fire up EU3:MMU today.

or at least figure out how to get some calvinists to spread into my capital i mean, geez, imaginary people, accept your depravity already
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 8:00 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]


I'm partial to their Arsenal of Democracy, personally.

Same era, same idea, better interface, less retarded AI.

In HoI3, naval AI was such crap, and Bitter Peace was bugged, etc etc.

Technology research was awesome, map was awesome, land combat was awesome, even the OOB stuff was awesome in how it incorporated air power.

But somehow.. meh. I've had way more fun on the HoI2 engine. :/
posted by edguardo at 8:06 AM on January 26, 2011


I am fascinated by games like this, but at heart am a casual gamer (i.e., I had trouble understanding Civ 2 and have not tried since). I fail at being a historian.

is there anything in the Paradox catalog that comes with training wheels? It all looks so pretty...
posted by catlet at 8:15 AM on January 26, 2011


I just find it fascinating that the simulations are becoming complex enough to learn historical lessons from. Even if the historical lessons are basically that the solutions we envision in hindsight are overly simplistic, that's an impressive thing for a game to convey.
posted by MrVisible at 8:15 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


After my experiences with Victoria 2, which is terribly buggy (after a major patch) and the developers do not seem keen on improving the game, I'm really reluctant on investing more money and energy into Paradox games.
posted by elder18 at 8:19 AM on January 26, 2011


EU3 is at 4€ on the steam store right now - I might try it - any good resources to get started for an absolute beginner ?
posted by motdiem2 at 8:28 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


So, who's up for some Blockout? Anyone? Round robin? Anyone?
posted by fatbird at 8:40 AM on January 26, 2011


Mmm, spreadsheets!
posted by Mick at 8:55 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Wouldn't that be Crusader Kings?

That's a fair point, although Crusader Kings's narrow focus and randomness make it seem like a different kind of game in some ways.

EU3 is at 4€ on the steam store right now - I might try it - any good resources to get started for an absolute beginner ?

The EU3 Wiki isn't a bad place to start. It lays out some basic information that's not easy to find in the game itself, and there are also guides for specific countries.
posted by Copronymus at 9:22 AM on January 26, 2011


EU3 is at 4€ on the steam store right now
I just picked this up. Thanks!
The EU3 expansion "Heir to the Throne" is on sale too, btw, for $2/2€
posted by yeoz at 9:25 AM on January 26, 2011


There'll be a new one out soon: Great Depression II Tagline, "Central Bank your way out of this"

OK that's a lame tagline. But if they had games like that not only would economics be more fun, but normal people might also understand it better. Even if everything does still depend on the assumptions in the model.
posted by Philosopher's Beard at 9:25 AM on January 26, 2011


Sounds about as exciting as Balance of Power which taught me the political meaning of the term "Finlandization".
posted by GuyZero at 9:42 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


any good resources to get started?

This video tutorial will acquaint you with the interface. (You might as well skip the in-game tutorial; I don't think Paradox even bothered to update it for the expansion packs.) Browsing after-action reports, like this Milan AAR, will give you some idea of what gameplay is like on the other side of the learning curve.

Something cool that hasn't been mentioned yet: most of the Paradox flagship games (Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis 3, Victoria 2, and Hearts of Iron 3) play on the same or similar engines, which means that once you reach the termination date of one game, you can convert your save file into a scenario for the next title in the series. Assuming months, possibly years of free time, you're able to shepherd an alternate Europe from 1066 to 1946.

This is something I will never actually do, but it's pleasant to have the option.
posted by Iridic at 9:53 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


The Hearts of Iron series really is an amazing achievement but HoI2 is technically superior to HoI3 (despite HoI3 being quite an impressive history sim in it's own right). I haven't played HoI3 in a while but as I recall some of the problems were quite glaring (Stalingrad being over 1000km from it's actual location, for example) and so complex that even the AI seemed to have trouble figuring things out (the multi-tiered Army Group->Army->Corps->etc. command system is genius but very poorly executed, most of the time my Army Groups just sat around dumbfounded at the general orders I gave them).

I usually play Arsenal of Democracy when I have the urge, and I almost always play as a peaceful Germany just to see how differently I can make history. Interesting discovery: if Germany had concentrated more on scientific research than military buildup in the 1930's, and had remained peaceful throughout the 1940's, they could have had a space program by 1946 and possibly manned missions to the moon by the mid 1950's. Talk about your alternate history!

I think that HoI3 has the potential to be a truly epic game, but it needs some major tweaking. I mean, major, major development. Maybe by another company or set of designers. It needs to be simplified a little (or at least have the option of adjusting complexity/simplicity) and the AI needs to be vastly improved. I know that's way easier said than done, but it would be worth it.

Also, I've finally figured out why Africa lags behind the rest of the world in development: they need more factories and rare materials. I await my Nobel Prize. That is all.
posted by Avenger at 10:01 AM on January 26, 2011


Thanks iridic & copronymous ! I wasn't planning on sleeping anyway tonight
posted by motdiem2 at 10:39 AM on January 26, 2011


I've played pretty much all of these, starting from the original Europe Universalis (which I bought imemdiately upon finding out you could vassalize a country instead of just absorb it). The EU games are still my favourite. The Victoria range of games I never got into - too much micromanagement (9 or 10 population types _per_ zone, each with their different set of needs and satisfaction levels). The HoI games are good, but I think the AI just cheats too much, and the game just felt sluggish and slow.

Crusader Kings was (it's a rather old game now) very interesting. The feudal system forces you to compromise so much, giving out parcels of lands to various Lords so you can maintain your kingdom. Marrying off your children to seal alliances or insert your dynasty into someone else's kingdom.

But really like all of these Paradox games - they're generally all buggy as hell.

Such a shame.
posted by schwa at 10:46 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


That article was fun, but (as is often the case) I like the MeFi comments more. And now I have just purchased EUIII Complete on Steam.

Looks like I'll be neglecting my family duties for awhile. Sorry kids, daddy has to conquer Europe...do you want to watch?
posted by jnrussell at 10:53 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


they're generally all buggy as hell.

Yeah, it's heartbreak and frustration to play a Paradox game on release. The general rule is to hold off for three years to let the patches and mods settle - which means I'll have to wait until 2015 for a playable version of Crusader Kings II.
posted by Iridic at 11:15 AM on January 26, 2011


I'll have to wait until 2015 for a playable version of Crusader Kings II.

That is not a preview I should have read, especially since my copy of the original stopped working on my new computer, leaving me totally unable to marry my dullard son to a 16 stewardship/diplomacy Catalan.
posted by Copronymus at 11:58 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


We should just blame the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts for WW2 and the holocaust. None of this would've happened had they let THAT GUY in.
posted by slater at 12:24 PM on January 26, 2011


Hah, actually Iridic it takes about two years in multiplayer, playing 4 hours a week. I've completed one such game, and am now in the Crusader Kings portion of a second one. Its quite the time suck.

Really, paradox games don't become truly playable until the third expansion or so. Victoria and Crusader Kings only got one each and really remain buggy as all heck. On the other hand EU3 has just been getting better and better. If you want to play EU3 at all, I highly recommend all 4 expansion packs. For instance, in Heir to the Throne, they've added war aims and a very robust Holy Roman Empire and papacy options. I've had loads more fun with this than I did before it came out.
posted by Carillon at 12:44 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


HoI never did it for me. I suspect that's because I played Vicky first, and she is my passion (I have the game price equation taped above one of my work monitors so I can focus on what's important throughout the day).

HoI doesn't have the level of economic micromanagement that I'd grown to love, also, HoI is a war game, while one can play Vicky as an economic and colonial game as well.

Vicky 2 improved on the political system while amputating economic micromanagement of the original. I'm sticking with the original for now.
posted by banal evil at 1:09 PM on January 26, 2011


Recently fell prey to Arsenal of Democracy (as I did two years ago to HoI II, damn it), and it is goooood. After putzing around for a few months on the easiest level I finally found the time to give the normal level a full attention try as the Soviets. Man, it's brutal, that AI. If it wasn't for a terrible winter and the minor Axis powers overextending themselves stupidly on the Ukraine, I'd be behind the Urals after 15 months of carnage.
posted by Iosephus at 2:09 PM on January 26, 2011


Here's a couple of the more interesting AARs (After Action Reports) that I've found.

Due to a set of debacles early in the war, Japan finds herself without much of a navy. Despite this handicap, Japanese paratroopers manage to conquer much of the Americas, including Washington DC.

If you're wanting a 1,000 year playthrough, someone took the time to replay the Hohenzollern dynasty from 1066 to 1946, using Crusader Kings, EU3, Victoria, and HOI2. Going from a backwater duchy in the Holy Roman Empire to being the Kaiser leading over an industrialized superpower. This is probably the AAR to end all AARs.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:23 PM on January 26, 2011


OhGodOhGodOhGod no don't let me click on that link. If Civ was the gateway drug, this looks like pure heroin. Mrs GH will *NOT* be pleased.
posted by Guernsey Halleck at 3:10 PM on January 26, 2011


Honestcoyote: I actually was going to do something like that, but my small scale conversion between Vicki and HoI II was a total disaster enough to make me never want to try it. Each game has its own different features and specializations that don't translate neatly or cleanly at all. Certainly not enough to maintain the "daydreaming immersion" aspect of all of these Grand Strategy games.

My example: Playing the United States from 1830 on. Going well in Vicki. Wrap up the Civil War in about 18 months during the Van Buren administration. By the 1880s, the USSA - as I now have come to think of it - is a State-Socialist Superpower stretching from the middle of modern Mexico through Alaska. A contiguous Alaska. We've allied with a surging, united Germany to contain a fully industrialized China in cahoots with a waning but still formidable England. This mostly entails be sending Germany moral support for wars I make them get into, while singing worker's songs back home protected by a fleet of about eleventy billion submarines. Russia, Persia and the Ottomans are basically relegated to also-ran status.

1936 or whatever the end date was hits. I export the file, looking forward to dropping some nukes on London. Load up HoI II - which I actually did not and do not have a bunch of experience with. Load up. All the TERRITORIES are still owned by their prospective owners, but otherwise all bets are off. All that time spent focusing on anything that wasn't the military (since that's really all HoI II gives a shit about that carries over) was totally wasted. Not just the political systems, but even the *alliances*. I mean, really, Paradox - why the fuck would I want to be in an alliance with Britain against Germany.

Oh, and then three days later my entire economy collapsed under the upkeep weight of eleventy billion submarines.
posted by absalom at 3:52 PM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]


I was delighted to find that HoI3 had been ported to the Mac. I just bought the game and the Semper Fi expansion pack for $44. I plan to reunify Poland and Lithuania. . .
posted by rdone at 8:08 PM on January 26, 2011


Reading things like this make me glad I'm still running OS 10.4. I like having a life and a job.
posted by Hactar at 9:01 AM on January 27, 2011


« Older Didn't this used to be called gravy?   |   What ? No Oscar nomination Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments