The Independent
September 17, 2001 3:15 PM   Subscribe

The Independent runs this story by Robert Fisk: Bush is walking into a trap
posted by vowe (26 comments total)
 
Without retaliation, it just gives the terrorists a green light to continue thier actions.

I know this is apples and oranges, but it is like kidnapping. If you pay the ransom, the kidnappers know that you will pay them again.
posted by da5id at 3:26 PM on September 17, 2001


But according to Fisk's point of view, the ransom the kidnappers seek is furious retribution- and then wide scale escalation, until the entire arab world is united against the west.

It's a compelling argument.
posted by Zbobo at 3:31 PM on September 17, 2001


It's obvious that SOMETHING has to be done. I'm certainly glad I'm not the one who has to make that decision....
posted by david1016 at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2001


Warning: It takes a while to read this rant. But I think it's worth it if you want to understand Fisk.
posted by vowe at 3:39 PM on September 17, 2001


don't confuse anomosity with intend to kill. it's a very dangerous thing to do.
posted by incubus at 4:01 PM on September 17, 2001


The main point of the article that I take, is that America needs to ask the "why" alongside the "what" and the "who"

Only then will we truly be able to protect ourselves in the future. This article is very well-written, and makes some very salient points about America's position in one part of the Middle East. The other article cited by Vowe helps to clear up the rest of the Middle East.
posted by eric anders at 4:10 PM on September 17, 2001


Most of Europe (with the possible exception of Britain) and Russia appear to want just what Robert Fisk is proposing - a more measured response. America's desire for revenge increasingly appears to be in danger of undermining the support Bush will get from other nations who don't want to see a backlash from the whole Arab world.
posted by arc at 4:11 PM on September 17, 2001


I am really sorry you see Mr Fisk's work as a rant but I know the truth - and history - can be unpopular and it must be difficult to think independently right now. Be brave, be intelligent and try. I want to bomb them all to bits too but there are so many martyrs to be made and so many more to follow them.

We need to try something new. Fisk might not have the solution there but at least he has thought about doing something differently. We should have come further than the old testament by now.
posted by terrymiles at 4:22 PM on September 17, 2001


previously, on metafilter....

worth it if you want to understand the 'rant'
posted by asok at 4:24 PM on September 17, 2001


You are right, I should not have called it 'rant'.
posted by vowe at 4:31 PM on September 17, 2001


Who is laying a trap?
posted by semmi at 4:42 PM on September 17, 2001


Detailed article on the Sabra and Chatila massacre that Fisk refers to in his column. I'm not sure about the accuracy, as I'm not well-informed on the Lebanon conflict.
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 4:43 PM on September 17, 2001


As far as whether or not the "rant" is a "rant" -- that's what the author himself titled it. Dur.

The rant link has some interesting stuff, but it fantastically one-sided when it comes to Israel. Any treatment of the creation of the state of Israel that fails to mention WWII and the Holocaust is pretty biased. Clue: Jews had pretty good reasons to pack up and move to Palastine around 1945-48. You can debate whether their claim to a homeland in the Palastine Mandate was legitimate, but you can't ignore this fundamental reason for the creation of the state.

The Independent article has some solid analysis. However, I am hopeful that some of the more blood-thirsty rhetoric we are getting out of the Bush administration is for domestic consumption rather than a preview of some blunt-force attack on Afghanistan. The delay in our response might support this position. We could have hit Afghanistan with B-52's and cruise missles days ago, but have not. Hopefully, we are going to lean on the Pakis and the Saudis to have the Taliban grab Bin Laden for us, or at least lead our special forces to the right cave.

The Independent article also leaves out a whole litany of PLO bad acts, btw.
posted by Mid at 4:55 PM on September 17, 2001


Who is laying a trap?

Fisk asserts that bin Laden is laying the trap, trying to draw the U.S. into actions that would unite the Islamic world against it.

Hopefully, there's someone in the administration smart enough to figure this out, too.

I agree with the main point of Fisk's essay, that we should persistently ask why this happened, and to try to place it in some historical context for ourselves. Whether or not you agree with U.S. intervention in the Middle East, the fact is we have intervened there (and also have declined to intervene there when we should have) to secure and maintain our access to petroleum.
posted by Ty Webb at 5:06 PM on September 17, 2001


Hopefully there's someone in the administration with enough fore-sight to look past how this will make Bush look like the "weenie" his administration is so scared of for the next election, if we make it that far.
posted by Espoo2 at 6:24 PM on September 17, 2001


"provoke the United States into just the blind, arrogant punch that the US military is preparing"

No one knows what the US military is preparing, but I feel fairly confident that the feather-puffing currently being displayed by our Commander-in-chief is just that - rhetoric and determination on display to appease the lowest common denominator.

This administration ain't stupid, and is in fact probably about as well-suited to handle this type of situation as you could hope for. Expect a very drawn out, surgical, intelligence-based operation that may last, well, forever. I find it irritating that everyone believes we're just gonna carpet bomb Afghanistan.
posted by glenwood at 6:46 PM on September 17, 2001


Well said glenwood!
posted by revbrian at 7:29 PM on September 17, 2001


The real trap will be laid if bin Laden is successful in what I guess he will attempt to do -- attack U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia. That could be enough to draw the kind of firefight that sets off the Middle East powderkeg.

It should also be said that tit-for-tat is a lot bloodier and a lot worse between proximate neighbors.
posted by argybarg at 7:38 PM on September 17, 2001


There are some good points in this article, and I do agree that Bush et al. NEED to be very cautious in how they proceed, but, it's far too left-wing for my taste.
posted by saturn5 at 10:24 PM on September 17, 2001


I read this article in the Independent and agreed with it almost entirely.. It may be that I have yet to regain an objective view on the situation, but I think thats a damn good article:

A moment of silence for Sabra and Shatila

I've seen pictures of that place after the Phalange were done with it.. I agree with him in the statement that this was the worst act of terrorism the world has seen.

Regarding US reaction - there appears to be a great deal of posturing going on - who knows what will happen? May be rhetoric, may not... Politicians are strange creatures..
posted by Mossy at 5:20 AM on September 18, 2001


Glenwood - I'm with you, but the reason commentators throughout the world are worried that the US are going to carpet-bomb Afghanistan is that Bush has said "we are at war" and that "we will make no distinction between terrorists and those that harbour them." Yesterday he also said he wants Osama bin Laden "dead or alive". Kind of adds to our stereotype of him as a trigger-happy Texan.
posted by skylar at 6:37 AM on September 18, 2001


"I repeat: what happened in New York was a crime against humanity. And that means policemen, arrests, justice, a whole new international court at The Hague if necessary."

Great idea! We'll just send in the police, make some arrests, and bring them to trial. All of this "war" talk is unnecessary. Who knew it was so easy?

I'm not saying I have the answers, but this oft-repeated notion that we have to somehow limit (or punish) ourselves because of "why" four groups of terrorists drove fully fueled planes into buildings is bunk. We certainly should consider and debate the "why," but we have to act on the "who."
posted by pardonyou? at 7:09 AM on September 18, 2001


The WHY of these events and the 'WHY' that is continuing ( with renewed joingoistic fervour and zeal)is of utmost importance here. Every day Palestinians die of a Made an American bullet. Every month ten thousand Iraqi die because of the sanctions imposed by the US preventing medical supplies from reaching the Dying in Iraq.

For the first time America knows what it is like to have it civilian population gripped by terror-a reality that Palestinians have lived through for the last 40 years.A reality that hundreds of Iraqi children die through everyday.

WE'VE GOT TO FACE THE WHY. There's no other way out.
posted by Outspoken at 2:01 AM on September 25, 2001


The WHY of these events and the 'WHY' that is continuing ( with renewed joingoistic fervour and zeal)is of utmost importance here. Every day Palestinians die of a Made an American bullet. Every month ten thousand Iraqi die because of the sanctions imposed by the US preventing medical supplies from reaching the Dying in Iraq.

For the first time America knows what it is like to have its civilian population gripped by terror-a reality that Palestinians have lived through for the last 40 years.A reality that hundreds of Iraqi children die through everyday.

WE'VE GOT TO FACE THE WHY. There's no other way out.
posted by Outspoken at 2:01 AM on September 25, 2001


The WHY of these events and the 'WHY' that is continuing ( with renewed joingoistic fervour and zeal)is of utmost importance here. Every day Palestinians die of a Made an American bullet. Every month ten thousand Iraqi die because of the sanctions imposed by the US preventing medical supplies from reaching the Dying in Iraq.

For the first time America knows what it is like to have its civilian population gripped by terror-a reality that Palestinians have lived through for the last 40 years.A reality that hundreds of Iraqi children die through everyday.

WE'VE GOT TO FACE THE WHY. There's no other way out.
posted by Outspoken at 2:01 AM on September 25, 2001


err....sorry. Didn't mean to click the POST icon thrice .
posted by Outspoken at 3:50 AM on September 25, 2001


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