"No, yes", "No, totally", and the "no" prefix as conversational element
April 7, 2015 1:13 PM   Subscribe

"At first blush, 'no' does not appear to be the kind of word whose meaning you can monkey with." Kathryn Schulz dissects the use of "no" at the beginning of conversational turns, and discusses how it may be a reaction to the loss of our previous "four-form system of negation and affirmation" that included "yea" and "nay".
posted by brainwane (61 comments total) 34 users marked this as a favorite
 
Pikers.
posted by BWA at 1:18 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


No, this is great.

I don't really do the specific no-totally thing that this is framed around in conversation, but it's a recognizable dialect feature in someone like Dunham, for sure. I do find myself no-yeahing a fair amount in conversation, but it's in more the way Ricky Gervais is quoted here — wanting to agree strongly with a negative.
posted by RogerB at 1:20 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


My old hypothesis was that "no, yes"/"no, totally" conveys "I agree that your conversational turn was valid and I disagree with the fear, which I sense you evinced, of breaking a Gricean maxim; furthermore, I also agree with the content of your last conversational turn". This may in fact be the case with "yeah, no."
posted by brainwane at 1:21 PM on April 7, 2015 [30 favorites]


There's probably a French influence here.
posted by ChuckRamone at 1:23 PM on April 7, 2015


We commandeer cafeteria trays to go sledding, “The Power Broker”to prop open the door, the Internet to look at kittens.

Some context.
posted by Ratio at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2015


I disagree with the fear, which I sense you evinced, of breaking a Gricean maxim

Yeah, this seems perceptive to me. You get the sense in at least some versions of no-totally or no-yeah that the "no" is a reassurance, like "no, you haven't transgressed by saying that." I'm not sure if it's really about the Gricean maxims specifically but it certainly feels like at least sometimes it's meant to answer an implicit "or is it just me?" or "or am I nuts?" or some self-doubting implication of that kind.
posted by RogerB at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2015 [17 favorites]


I think the "no" at the beginning of a statement in which you're agreeing with what was just said is to underline the fact that you mean it even MORE than the first person meant it. As if they understated it or something. It's dumb.
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:27 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I still think it's a contraction of "I know" somehow. Therefore, "No, totally!" and "yeah, no" both make complete sense and everything is okay.

(Edit: as the article also posits, I notice now)
posted by dng at 1:40 PM on April 7, 2015 [9 favorites]


I think I use it as the polite way of disagreeing. Saying "no" full stop is considered rude. "no, yes" means you agree somewhat (or acknowledging their point) but will follow through with a qualifying statement or a change of conversational vector that may subtly negate a portion of their statement.

"I love david bowie"
"no, yeah... he's awesome... I found his later works hard to get into though"
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:41 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


dng -- you are brilliant
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:41 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the "no" at the beginning of a statement in which you're agreeing with what was just said is to underline the fact that you mean it even MORE than the first person meant it. As if they understated it or something. It's dumb.

I feel like it's closer to "you might have expected me to disagree with you, but no, I don't." It's something I do and hear pretty frequently, and I've never understood it to mean that anything was felt more strongly than the original speaker.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:43 PM on April 7, 2015 [16 favorites]


I know, right?
posted by tempestuoso at 1:46 PM on April 7, 2015 [5 favorites]


That's bad. Which is good.
posted by ardgedee at 1:48 PM on April 7, 2015


No no no no no no no no no yes.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:50 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


In English a double negative is a positive.

In Russian a double negative is a negative.

There is no language in which a double positive is a negative.

Yeah, right.
posted by alms at 1:51 PM on April 7, 2015 [24 favorites]


I still think it's a contraction of "I know" somehow. Therefore, "No, totally!" and "yeah, no" both make complete sense and everything is okay.

But "yeah, no" means actually no, or maybe "I understand what you mean, but I disagree". I like the theory, but to apply it to "yeah, no" you'd have to claim that "I know" is being shortened to "yeah".
posted by echo target at 1:51 PM on April 7, 2015


Yeah, right!
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


In English a double negative is a positive.

There ain't no way that's always true.
posted by echo target at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


My old hypothesis was that "no, yes"/"no, totally" conveys "I agree that your conversational turn was valid and I disagree with the fear, which I sense you evinced, of breaking a Gricean maxim; furthermore, I also agree with the content of your last conversational turn". This may in fact be the case with "yeah, no."

What makes you no longer think it's the case with "No, totally"? I had never heard of Gricean maxims before, but I'm delighted to have learned about them and I think my use of "No, totally" and variations do seem to fit that pattern.
posted by jaguar at 1:55 PM on April 7, 2015


The meaning of both "no, yeah" and "yeah, no" depends on how you say them and the context that they're in. There is, for example, a "noooooooo, yeah" with head shaking which means, "I sympathize, but it's not going to happen."
posted by clawsoon at 1:56 PM on April 7, 2015


But "yeah, no" means actually no, or maybe "I understand what you mean, but I disagree". I like the theory, but to apply it to "yeah, no" you'd have to claim that "I know" is being shortened to "yeah".

It's the exception that proves the rule! (By which I mean I have now abandoned my theory.)
posted by dng at 1:56 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


But "yeah, no" means actually no, or maybe "I understand what you mean, but I disagree".

Doesn't this depend on context? I feel like it can either mean that or the exact opposite of that.

Usage 1
Person 1: Hey could you give me a hand with this?
Person 2: Yeah, no, I don't have the time.

Usage 2
Person 1: She's really annoying me today.
Person 2: Yeah, no, she's the worst.

Usage 2 is closer to how I use "yeah, no", but I would understand and expect both usages.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:59 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


No, really?
posted by I-baLL at 2:02 PM on April 7, 2015


In the course of investigating this subject, I called up Shaun Lau, who hosts, together with Brian Hanson, the film-criticism podcast “No, Totally!” When I asked Lau how he came to choose the name, he told me that he was bored with critical conversations in which people who disagreed spoke past each other to try to score points with the audience. “It just didn’t seem interesting to me to be another guy arguing with another guy,” he said. But nor was he interested in predictable or polite agreement. The phrase “No, totally!” seemed to suggest, instead, genuine engagement: a startled, joyful discovery of common ground. To use it, he said, “You have to be in a conversation that has a certain level of passion.”

There is definitely something to the excitement thing. I feel like I usually see it being followed by an add on or follow-up statement of agreement. It's a way to interrupt in order to agree with someone.
posted by edbles at 2:02 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fuck no, yeah.
posted by surplus at 2:03 PM on April 7, 2015


I know, right?

I'm increasingly hearing and seeing this shortened to just, "Right?"
posted by Kabanos at 2:06 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think I first noticed this phenomenon from Phoebe on Friends.

Also, I think the Power Broker joke is mostly just that it is very, very, very long.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:13 PM on April 7, 2015


Any statement sort of implies that the listener either doesn't already know or doesn't already agree with the statement.

When you reply, "No, you're right," you're saying, "No, I wasn't ignorant of that and you're right" or "No, I don't disagree; you're right."
posted by straight at 2:18 PM on April 7, 2015




I think the parsing of "No [objection], totally" feels generally fairly valid. (Consider also this interpretation for Bulgarokontos's second "yeah, no" example.)
posted by NMcCoy at 2:26 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Although I think it sometimes has more of a sense at being directed at some real or hypothetical third party who might disagree with the original statement.

"I love the Fast & Furious movies!"

"No [anyone who thinks those movies are bad is wrong], totally [they are great]."

I even sometimes get a sense of an elided ironic disagreement that is ended by the 'No' (not to be confused with saying the 'No' itself as ironic disagreement, which would have a completely different tonal delivery).

"I love the Fast & Furious movies!"

[maybe a pause or a look that momentarily implies disagreement]

"No [, I'm kidding], totally [they are great]."
posted by straight at 2:30 PM on April 7, 2015


I even sometimes get a sense of an elided ironic disagreement that is ended by the 'No' (not to be confused with saying the 'No' itself as ironic disagreement, which would have a completely different tonal delivery).

It's the beginning of English as a tonal language, is what it is.
posted by clawsoon at 2:34 PM on April 7, 2015


No, totally, I've been listening to the audio book of "J.R." by William Gaddis. Almost all of the text is speech by one or another of the characters and very often there are utterances "No yes" and "Yes no" and "No but", to the point where I'm now seriously sensitized to "yes" and "no" in speech, especially as lead ins to phrases or responses to another speaker. No but this comes at a opportune time.
posted by Death and Gravity at 2:47 PM on April 7, 2015


I see it as an form of the Minnesota no, which replies to an (often unstated) polite negative rephrasing of the question.
- Can I sit here [or is this chair taken]?
- No [it's not taken], sit down.
- Can I talk to you for a sec [if you're not too busy]?
- No [I'm not busy], come on in.

I'm from Wisconsin but work overseas. I had a colleague from Minnesota for a while, and we would totally confuse everyone else with these types of exchanges.
posted by djiboliz at 3:05 PM on April 7, 2015 [10 favorites]


In German, if you want to avoid committing to either ja or nein, you can fuse them into jein.
posted by Iridic at 3:23 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm from Wisconsin but work overseas. I had a colleague from Minnesota for a while, and we would totally confuse everyone else with these types of exchanges.

I sometimes think that any opening question from a Midwesterner is basically, "Am I bothering you?"
posted by jaguar at 3:25 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


An acquaintance who grew up in Southern California uses "No" or "No!" or some variant as a way to interject her opinion into the discussion, even if her position isn't in negation to the position under discussion at the time. It used to disconcert and annoy the heck out of me, but I figured out that it was just her way to crowbar her voice into the discussion. Maybe she grew up with lots of louder and more obnoxious siblings or something like that.
posted by King Sky Prawn at 3:25 PM on April 7, 2015


Speaking of implicit negatives, positive anymore seems to be leaking out among the general population. I knew I wasn't just going crazy.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:32 PM on April 7, 2015 [5 favorites]


"No[, I think you might think I don't agree with you but I do.]"
posted by zeek321 at 3:52 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I've interpreted the "No, yes" to be a way to say "No, you are wrong. I am right. I'm saying the same thing you were saying. I retain the power in this conversation."
posted by rebent at 4:03 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


Australian rugby league player post match interview:

Yeah nah full credit to the boys under the pump stuck solid 110% mate
posted by vbfg at 4:12 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


we will find a way to use it for something other than its intended purpose. We commandeer cafeteria trays to go sledding, “The Power Broker” to prop open the door, the Internet to look at kittens.

This section was discussed above, but I would like to point out that the author has completely misunderstood the purpose of the internet in his example. Kittens are the internet!
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:13 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I always interpreted the 'No, totally' as short for 'No (you don't need to say any more), (I) totally (agree).'

Or perhaps less charitably 'No (more talking please, you can seriously shut up now), (I) totally (know that already and agree and you don't need to go on about it, seriously)
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:17 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Woman on plane asking me if I would mind changing seats(I had specifically picked the aisle seat when I bought it) so she could sit with her daughter.

Me: Yes.
Woman: OK, great.

She starts to get up.

Me:Yes, I DO mind!

The man sitting next to her daughter agreed to change places, but then I had to deal with him trying to hit on me( this was before Hollaback existed).
posted by brujita at 5:17 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it's a way of saying: "I know you assume that what follows is polite agreement, but no, it isn't, I actually agree and want you to know it!" Although of course it is used for polite agreement all the time so conversational inflation may in the future require even more to indicate true sincerity.
posted by shivohum at 5:29 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


Am I on a bus with a bunch of teenagers? When did this happen? Oh god the bus is a boat and I can't get off. Oh wait I can just close the tab. Phew.
posted by srboisvert at 5:52 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Russian has the expression Да-нет or Yes-no which has a fairly complicated use in the language. This site has a good description comparing the use of Yes and No in English and in Russian. It appears that Russian is more like Japanese.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:06 PM on April 7, 2015


I don't think there is an inherent, "true" meaning. It's a conversational habit that is picked up from other people, and is used unconsciously. It serves a purpose, making the response less blunt, but the fact that the word used to achieve this is "no" is coincidental (it could just as well be "Flurh, yeah") So when asked "what does it mean" or "why is it used", people are scrabbling to come up with a theory to fit it, where no theory actually exists. It's like if I said "7 13 2 18. What's the pattern?" and then everybody came up with their own patterns for producing those numbers.

srboisvert: "Am I on a bus with a bunch of teenagers? When did this happen?"

I'm 40, so...sometime before my speech patterns solidified? Sometime in or before the mid-1980s?
posted by Bugbread at 6:21 PM on April 7, 2015


You could argue that there’s also a negative, this one implicit, in the exchange between Mark Maron and Lena Dunham. By that logic, Maron is really saying, “You want to hit them [because these guys don’t know anything about art],” and Dunham’s reply means, “No, they don’t, I totally agree.”

I think that the implied negative is more like [but that's just me] but that's just me.
posted by confabulous at 8:22 PM on April 7, 2015


I think that the implied negative is more like [but that's just me] but that's just me.

No, yeah, totally, it's not just you.
posted by jaguar at 8:28 PM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


Russian has the expression Да-нет or Yes-no which has a fairly complicated use in the language.

Huh. German has "jein", a compound word derived from ja (yes) and nein (no) but its use has been described as playful and ambiguous. There's even a song about the word!
posted by dmt at 7:20 AM on April 8, 2015


I had a couple of bosses once, one of whom loved to use "No, yeah" to reply to just about any comment, and the other who constantly said "Yeah, no" in discussion.

We all imagined that meetings with both of them in attendance simply consisted of this line of discourse:

"Statement from the presenter"
Boss two: "Yeah, no...rebuttal."
Boss one: "No, yeah..agreement with Boss two."
Boss two: "Yeah, no."
Boss one: "No, yeah."
Boss two: "Yeah, no."
Boss one: "No, yeah."

And so on until the original presenter stabs themselves in the eye with the dull laser pointer.
posted by HycoSpeed at 7:54 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Such words—also called auto-antonyms, antagonyms, Janus words, and antiologies...

I like the idea of calling these terms "antagonyms," because they seem to antagonize.
posted by ogooglebar at 8:22 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


When I was in college in Delaware in the early nineties, I noticed this weird verbal tic that I picked up and haven't been able to shake in the 20 years since I left: they'll agree with you but with a tone that implies they're disagreeing with you. To wit:

"This Slurpee is delicious!"
"Yeah it is" -- but the yeah has the accent, like you actually said the opposite and they're disagreeing. "YEAH it is." Like they just said "No it's not" and you're coming back with "Yeah it is."
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:48 AM on April 8, 2015


"Yeah it is" -- but the yeah has the accent, like you actually said the opposite and they're disagreeing. "YEAH it is." Like they just said "No it's not" and you're coming back with "Yeah it is."

My brother often does that, but I take more as "HELL YEAH! You are SO RIGHT!"
posted by jaguar at 8:52 AM on April 8, 2015


Yes, that's the meaning, but the actual tone makes it sound like they're responding to someone who said the opposite of what was actually said.

"This band is so great."
"YEAH they are."
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:00 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Yeah it is" -- but the yeah has the accent, like you actually said the opposite and they're disagreeing. "YEAH it is." Like they just said "No it's not" and you're coming back with "Yeah it is."

A friend and I always use this intonation to imply that whatever the other just said was a double entendre, e.g.:

"Did you pick a song yet for karaoke?"
"Yup, I just put it in."
"YEAH you did!"
posted by capricorn at 9:30 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


I equate that with the "like a boss" implication.
posted by blurker at 10:02 AM on April 8, 2015


the loss of our previous "four-form system of negation and affirmation" that included "yea" and "nay".

what about "neigh"?
posted by thelonius at 10:41 AM on April 8, 2015


"I say thee nay" avoids ambiguity, especially if you shout it and subsequently hit something with a hammer.

"Yeah, verily" is equally unambiguous, but appropriate only when someone offers you mead.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:05 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Non-double-entendre "YEAH it is!" in an ad (well, "YEAH they are!")
posted by jaguar at 2:56 PM on April 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


« Older Junk food: just as photogenic as kale salads   |   It Won't Be a Green Chri$tma$ Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments