“what you would expect from a dial-up service”
August 22, 2018 10:53 PM Subscribe
As California firefighters battled the state's largest wildfire, Verizon throttled their data
Fire Department Joins Net Neutrality Suit After Verizon Cuts Data During Wildfire
“In the midst of our response to the Mendocino Complex Fire, County Fire discovered the data connection for OES 5262 was being throttled by Verizon, and data rates had been reduced to 1/200, or less, than the previous speeds. These reduced speeds severely interfered with the OES 5262's ability to function effectively," Bowden wrote.Fire dept. rejects Verizon’s “customer support mistake” excuse for throttling
Santa Clara County Fire Capt. Bill Murphy told CNN that the department's connection speed dropped to what you would expect from a dial-up service, making simple tasks like sending an email or updating a Google document almost impossible.
The document included an email chain that showed that the fire department had been working with Verizon to solve the throttling problem before the Mendocino Fires started and that Verizon did not lift the data caps until the fire department paid for a more expensive plan.
Fire Department Joins Net Neutrality Suit After Verizon Cuts Data During Wildfire
It's almost as if privatizing everything might have negative consequences.
posted by simra at 11:06 PM on August 22, 2018 [128 favorites]
posted by simra at 11:06 PM on August 22, 2018 [128 favorites]
Meanwhile on Hacker News, 350+ comments on why this is the fault of the Fire Service, which unfortunately sums up how disconnected and absurdist techbro thought has become from our daily lives and the increasingly severe consequences thereof.
posted by fallingbadgers at 11:14 PM on August 22, 2018 [67 favorites]
posted by fallingbadgers at 11:14 PM on August 22, 2018 [67 favorites]
OK, I'm in agreement here -- the fire department picked the wrong plan. They made a mistake. However, the instant it became known what was going on, Verizon has a civic duty to throw the lines wide goddamn open. That they did not do so puts them in line for a 50 million dollar fine, payable to the great state of California. Of course, Verizon can dispute this, and not pay it. And in that case Verizon can no longer operate in the great state of California. Ever again. And they forfeit all of their holdings in the great state of California. And they have to turn over their business to any number of providers who would be grateful to get it.
There are times when we need Vito Corleone in position of power. This is one of those times.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:47 PM on August 22, 2018 [107 favorites]
There are times when we need Vito Corleone in position of power. This is one of those times.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:47 PM on August 22, 2018 [107 favorites]
Awesome. On a semi-related note, I've been getting inundated by political adds here that start with
California firefighters know that global warming is real.
and morphs into
Utility companies shouldn't be held responsible for fires resulting from downed power lines.
Utilities need to take some effing responsibility. They get public trust in exchange for providing indispensable public resources. That doesn't mean they get to neglect their duties or hold those resources ransom. That means they take their lumps like any other business and thank Supply-side Jesus they get to be private companies.
I moved to Napa right before the fires last year. No power or telecommunications for 3-5 days in some areas. The fires started in several difficult and hard to reach places, such that arson was originally suspected. Nope: those were just the places PG&E couldn't be bothered to perform safety maintenance on. They didn't trim the trees around their lines in the mountains, so the valleys got fucked when a wind storm hit. Utilities need to be held accountable.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:51 PM on August 22, 2018 [34 favorites]
California firefighters know that global warming is real.
and morphs into
Utility companies shouldn't be held responsible for fires resulting from downed power lines.
Utilities need to take some effing responsibility. They get public trust in exchange for providing indispensable public resources. That doesn't mean they get to neglect their duties or hold those resources ransom. That means they take their lumps like any other business and thank Supply-side Jesus they get to be private companies.
I moved to Napa right before the fires last year. No power or telecommunications for 3-5 days in some areas. The fires started in several difficult and hard to reach places, such that arson was originally suspected. Nope: those were just the places PG&E couldn't be bothered to perform safety maintenance on. They didn't trim the trees around their lines in the mountains, so the valleys got fucked when a wind storm hit. Utilities need to be held accountable.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:51 PM on August 22, 2018 [34 favorites]
They had an "unlimited" data plan. That plan turned out to have a limit buried in the fine print: your speed is slowed to essentially unusable levels (like slower than bad DSL 20 years ago speeds) if you use more than 25GB in a month. I don't think it's inherently unreasonable to throttle unlimited plans that have used large amounts of data to reasonable speeds when the network is congested, but throttling them just because an arbitrary limit has been reached isn't "reasonable network management," it's an absurd definition of the word "unlimited."
And even Verizon admits that it, not the fire department, "'made a mistake' in communicating with the department about the terms of the plan." Because presumably nobody thinks an "unlimited" plan actually means 25GB and then it's unusable.
I don't really care if they picked the wrong plan. At a fundamental human level, if the fire department is calling you up saying that you're obstructing their ability to fight the largest fire in state history, you move heaven and earth to fix it immediately, not shake them down for a few bucks.
posted by zachlipton at 11:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [136 favorites]
And even Verizon admits that it, not the fire department, "'made a mistake' in communicating with the department about the terms of the plan." Because presumably nobody thinks an "unlimited" plan actually means 25GB and then it's unusable.
I don't really care if they picked the wrong plan. At a fundamental human level, if the fire department is calling you up saying that you're obstructing their ability to fight the largest fire in state history, you move heaven and earth to fix it immediately, not shake them down for a few bucks.
posted by zachlipton at 11:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [136 favorites]
Sure is nice of Verizon to offer the special extortion pricing tier, where they charge two and a half times as much for 80% of the service, then charge 5x on a per-GB basis when you go over the new, lower cap.
posted by ckape at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ckape at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Floam, wireless data is nothing like buying fuel for your car.
It is, however, very much like having electricity to your home.
Or water.
Or access to radio broadcasts.
Or access to roads and sidewalks.
Like (dare I say it) basic medical care.
All of these are services that eventually need to be paid for in some way, but only in unjust societies are these services suddenly cut off without serious consideration.
Pretending that internet access is NOT a basic service in this day in age is absurd. All basic services have regulatory safeguards in any sane society to help ensure that people don't die when their credit card glitches and they miss a payment. You don't limit someone's electrical current to their home 5W because they used up their kWh for the month because people will die. You don't limit a home's water to 500ml per day because they've used up their 5000L for the month because people will die. No telephone will stop letting you call 911 because you used up your minutes for the month because people will die.
Nobody is suggesting that Verizon should keep providing unlimited internet forever for everybody for free, just like nobody expects to get unlimited electricity to your home without paying for it, but if the free market results in outcomes like this because the FD accidentally chose the wrong wireless plan then the free market has failed society and that market needs to be regulated like other basic services.
posted by WaylandSmith at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2018 [84 favorites]
It is, however, very much like having electricity to your home.
Or water.
Or access to radio broadcasts.
Or access to roads and sidewalks.
Like (dare I say it) basic medical care.
All of these are services that eventually need to be paid for in some way, but only in unjust societies are these services suddenly cut off without serious consideration.
Pretending that internet access is NOT a basic service in this day in age is absurd. All basic services have regulatory safeguards in any sane society to help ensure that people don't die when their credit card glitches and they miss a payment. You don't limit someone's electrical current to their home 5W because they used up their kWh for the month because people will die. You don't limit a home's water to 500ml per day because they've used up their 5000L for the month because people will die. No telephone will stop letting you call 911 because you used up your minutes for the month because people will die.
Nobody is suggesting that Verizon should keep providing unlimited internet forever for everybody for free, just like nobody expects to get unlimited electricity to your home without paying for it, but if the free market results in outcomes like this because the FD accidentally chose the wrong wireless plan then the free market has failed society and that market needs to be regulated like other basic services.
posted by WaylandSmith at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2018 [84 favorites]
In other words, if they bought "unlimited diesel (*actually limited to a gallon a day once you've used more than 100 gallons)" and the company that sold it to them admitted that they didn't appropriately communicate those terms, you would call the diesel company a bunch of lying fraudsters.
But the fuel analogy is broken here. Bandwidth is a rate, not a consumable like fuel, no matter how much cell phone companies want to price it like one. It's not like the fire department was demanding that Verizon deliver them a scarce resource; they just wanted an artificial limitation turned off. It's more like if you buy a monthly bus pass, and then the transit agency says you're riding the bus too much and can only ride once a day now, so you ask if they could stop with that while you're busy fighting a massive fire.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 AM on August 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
But the fuel analogy is broken here. Bandwidth is a rate, not a consumable like fuel, no matter how much cell phone companies want to price it like one. It's not like the fire department was demanding that Verizon deliver them a scarce resource; they just wanted an artificial limitation turned off. It's more like if you buy a monthly bus pass, and then the transit agency says you're riding the bus too much and can only ride once a day now, so you ask if they could stop with that while you're busy fighting a massive fire.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 AM on August 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
In addition to how silly it is to blame the fire department's procurement process when it turns out that Verizon basically just lied about what they were providing, I don't really think "courtesy" is really an appropriate frame for Verizon's responsibility here. 14 people, 6 of them firefighters, have died in wildfires in California already this year. It's not a failure of courtesy to withhold potentially life-saving resources that have already been provided, come at no additional cost to the provider, and will not be consumed, it's an immoral act.
posted by Copronymus at 12:08 AM on August 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 12:08 AM on August 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
Even if the firefighters were running a con to deprive Verizon of a thousandth of a percent of their monthly revenue, it seems like the PR value of not hindering the fighting of multiple deadly wildfires would be worth it.
posted by ckape at 12:14 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by ckape at 12:14 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Verizon right now is advertising on TV various flavors of “unlimited” data. Get the unlimited that works for you.
It’s like some genius at Verizon figured out “unlimited” has as much legal meaning on the label as “natural” does (and less oversight), and decided the company should go there fast and hard.
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
posted by notyou at 12:15 AM on August 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
It’s like some genius at Verizon figured out “unlimited” has as much legal meaning on the label as “natural” does (and less oversight), and decided the company should go there fast and hard.
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
posted by notyou at 12:15 AM on August 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
I sense a lot of tech bros seeing this as a real missed opportunity. I mean just think if they could control the water the fire department used like they did the data! All that potential income lost.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:30 AM on August 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 12:30 AM on August 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Gawd, and how shitty are those plans on top of all this? Pretty shitty!
posted by rhizome at 12:30 AM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:30 AM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Thank you for calling Unlimited Firefighting Services, Ltd. If you'd like to extend your Unlimited Firefighting Plan to cover more than one fire per year, press 1."
posted by hat_eater at 12:35 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by hat_eater at 12:35 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
I don't think it's inherently unreasonable to throttle unlimited plans ...
It's almost as if words only mean what your corporate masters want them to mean.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:54 AM on August 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
It's almost as if words only mean what your corporate masters want them to mean.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:54 AM on August 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
Hmm, it's almost like unfettered capitalism doesn't provide consumers with the best services possible...
Snark aside, the top related post for this is a proposal to nationalize the Internet in the US. It might be something to look at, as today it's pretty much a basic necessity like roads and power grids.
(And MikeKD, sorry about your stress and trouble. I hope things will improve soon.)
posted by Harald74 at 3:13 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Snark aside, the top related post for this is a proposal to nationalize the Internet in the US. It might be something to look at, as today it's pretty much a basic necessity like roads and power grids.
(And MikeKD, sorry about your stress and trouble. I hope things will improve soon.)
posted by Harald74 at 3:13 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
This FPP can be summed up as a combo of
I don't really care if they picked the wrong plan. At a fundamental human level, if the fire department is calling you up saying that you're obstructing their ability to fight the largest fire in state history, you move heaven and earth to fix it immediately, not shake them down for a few bucks.
and
Meanwhile on Hacker News, 350+ comments on why this is the fault of the Fire Service, which unfortunately sums up how disconnected and absurdist techbro thought has become from our daily lives and the increasingly severe consequences thereof.
/ This implies something important has been lost. Something like community, civic responsibility, social consciousness, that type of something, a common humanity, not a debate about the fine print on your contract with a telco
posted by infini at 3:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
I don't really care if they picked the wrong plan. At a fundamental human level, if the fire department is calling you up saying that you're obstructing their ability to fight the largest fire in state history, you move heaven and earth to fix it immediately, not shake them down for a few bucks.
and
Meanwhile on Hacker News, 350+ comments on why this is the fault of the Fire Service, which unfortunately sums up how disconnected and absurdist techbro thought has become from our daily lives and the increasingly severe consequences thereof.
/ This implies something important has been lost. Something like community, civic responsibility, social consciousness, that type of something, a common humanity, not a debate about the fine print on your contract with a telco
posted by infini at 3:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
Ah, the Truth isn't Truth economy.
posted by infini at 3:23 AM on August 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
Ah, the Truth isn't Truth economy.
posted by infini at 3:23 AM on August 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
> Well, their IT people did pick too cheap a data plan. The agency should have thought out potential usage for emergencies - that's what the plan is used for.
What if they had, with thorough research and expert deliberation, chosen the most optimal plan the state's budget and purchase policies allowed them?
posted by ardgedee at 3:34 AM on August 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
What if they had, with thorough research and expert deliberation, chosen the most optimal plan the state's budget and purchase policies allowed them?
posted by ardgedee at 3:34 AM on August 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
you move heaven and earth to fix it immediately, not shake them down for a few bucks.
Once the Fire Dept had figured out that the Unlimited in the title of their plan actually meant 'Unlimited' (terms and conditions apply), and their mobile C&C unit stopped functioning in the middle of fighting a wildfire, and they contacted Verizon offering to pay for a really unlimited plan, so they could get back to fighting fires, the account manager responded by offering them a few times over the following days when he would be "available" to talk with them.
Email thread here, see pages 9-10.
posted by carter at 3:49 AM on August 23, 2018 [64 favorites]
Once the Fire Dept had figured out that the Unlimited in the title of their plan actually meant 'Unlimited' (terms and conditions apply), and their mobile C&C unit stopped functioning in the middle of fighting a wildfire, and they contacted Verizon offering to pay for a really unlimited plan, so they could get back to fighting fires, the account manager responded by offering them a few times over the following days when he would be "available" to talk with them.
Email thread here, see pages 9-10.
posted by carter at 3:49 AM on August 23, 2018 [64 favorites]
It's like, I've seen those "get the Unlimited that works for you" ads, and I don't even understand what they mean. Access to data is access to data. Unlimited data means unlimited data.
They're pulling some serious post-net-neutrality bullshit if they're selling "this person gets video" and "this person gets music" and "this person gets chat" kind of separating net traffic into parallel schemes of payment.
Also, aren't we far enough into the development of the infrastructure for the major carriers to be dropping data caps and usage fees? How long did we live with the "ten cents a minute, five cents a minute, one cent a minute" long distance fee plans (with aggressive competitive advertising) before it was just "yeah make the call who cares"?
I mean, when I was growing up with Ma Bell as a nationwide company, they would mail you booklets where you could look up where you were calling, prefix to prefix, and it would tell you it was $1.50/min during the day but after 10pm it was $0.25/min and so my parents would wake me up to talk to my grandfather in what felt like the middle of the night.
Aren't we beyond that sort of mentality about data at this point? Wasn't the reason for charging for data and capping data because the infrastructure wasn't built out and it would limit usage while they built it? It's been years!
posted by hippybear at 3:51 AM on August 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
They're pulling some serious post-net-neutrality bullshit if they're selling "this person gets video" and "this person gets music" and "this person gets chat" kind of separating net traffic into parallel schemes of payment.
Also, aren't we far enough into the development of the infrastructure for the major carriers to be dropping data caps and usage fees? How long did we live with the "ten cents a minute, five cents a minute, one cent a minute" long distance fee plans (with aggressive competitive advertising) before it was just "yeah make the call who cares"?
I mean, when I was growing up with Ma Bell as a nationwide company, they would mail you booklets where you could look up where you were calling, prefix to prefix, and it would tell you it was $1.50/min during the day but after 10pm it was $0.25/min and so my parents would wake me up to talk to my grandfather in what felt like the middle of the night.
Aren't we beyond that sort of mentality about data at this point? Wasn't the reason for charging for data and capping data because the infrastructure wasn't built out and it would limit usage while they built it? It's been years!
posted by hippybear at 3:51 AM on August 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
I'm old enough to remember when this was called 'fraud'.
posted by gimonca at 3:54 AM on August 23, 2018 [81 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember when this was called 'fraud'.
posted by gimonca at 3:54 AM on August 23, 2018 [81 favorites]
It's like, I've seen those "get the Unlimited that works for you" ads, and I don't even understand what they mean.
You see we have Unlimited, Unlimited Plus, Unlimited Unlimited...Unlimited Lite — that doesn't have much unlimited in it — Unlimited Sport, Unlimited Maximum (30GB/mo), Unlimited Maximum (40GB/mo), and more!
posted by rhizome at 4:07 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
You see we have Unlimited, Unlimited Plus, Unlimited Unlimited...Unlimited Lite — that doesn't have much unlimited in it — Unlimited Sport, Unlimited Maximum (30GB/mo), Unlimited Maximum (40GB/mo), and more!
posted by rhizome at 4:07 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
aren't we far enough into the development of the infrastructure for the major carriers to be dropping data caps and usage fees?
It's not just whether the infrastructure exists - it's about who owns it. Peering arrangements exist for data to be exchanged between networks at no-cost but only if data flows are perfectly balanced. The reality is they're not: the most extreme example would be here in Australia, where we are a net user of data - we download a lot of data from sources in the US and Europe but we don't have much to offer users there in return, because there is almost no reason for anyone to set up a global server in Australia. ISPs get charged by the gigabyte for data pulled in from other networks (or else forgo charges they could be charging them), and they pass those costs on to users...
Am typing this from a 3mbps down / 1mbps up connection which is apparently the best internet we can get in this pretty nice neighbourhood in a suburb just 10km from Melbourne... the government promises we will get HFC technology sometime next year as an upgrade, a technology I hear has been around since the 90s...
posted by xdvesper at 4:19 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's not just whether the infrastructure exists - it's about who owns it. Peering arrangements exist for data to be exchanged between networks at no-cost but only if data flows are perfectly balanced. The reality is they're not: the most extreme example would be here in Australia, where we are a net user of data - we download a lot of data from sources in the US and Europe but we don't have much to offer users there in return, because there is almost no reason for anyone to set up a global server in Australia. ISPs get charged by the gigabyte for data pulled in from other networks (or else forgo charges they could be charging them), and they pass those costs on to users...
Am typing this from a 3mbps down / 1mbps up connection which is apparently the best internet we can get in this pretty nice neighbourhood in a suburb just 10km from Melbourne... the government promises we will get HFC technology sometime next year as an upgrade, a technology I hear has been around since the 90s...
posted by xdvesper at 4:19 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
In Finland, the difference between the 20 euro a month unlimited data plan and the 30 euro a month unlimited data plan is the speed of the connection rather than a data cap. Since I rarely stream video or audio, the cheaper one does it job for me and I don't even notice the difference in speeds.
posted by infini at 4:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by infini at 4:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Quite a bit of discussion in our office about this story and what saddens me most is how these corporations have basically programmed us to accept this kind of behaviour, so much so that people will rush to Verizon's defense.
I understand all the legalities involved and that the fine print protects them and all of that, but at the end of the day, there are humans that are being impacted in critical ways by this lack of service and this corporation took the side of money, this was a choice they've made across the board and it impacted these firefighters/community in very consequential ways. I'm not surprised by any of this, I'm just sad that we live in this corporate hellscape.
posted by Fizz at 5:22 AM on August 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
I understand all the legalities involved and that the fine print protects them and all of that, but at the end of the day, there are humans that are being impacted in critical ways by this lack of service and this corporation took the side of money, this was a choice they've made across the board and it impacted these firefighters/community in very consequential ways. I'm not surprised by any of this, I'm just sad that we live in this corporate hellscape.
posted by Fizz at 5:22 AM on August 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
Sorry Verizon we can't come and put the fire at your offices out, your unlimited insurance has reached its limit and until you cough up more, you don't qualify for emergency services.
posted by Burn_IT at 5:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Burn_IT at 5:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Why does stuff like this stay as water cooler talk instead of an organized campaign? Why can't or don't we put out the message: "people died because corporate greed got in the way"?
I feel like it would be very hard for people that think themselves honest and good to overlook a message of "Timmy or a yacht". Maybe I'm wrong I dunno but it seems this is one of those times where any good person would instinctively be against this stuff.
Am I naive? Probably.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:17 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
I feel like it would be very hard for people that think themselves honest and good to overlook a message of "Timmy or a yacht". Maybe I'm wrong I dunno but it seems this is one of those times where any good person would instinctively be against this stuff.
Am I naive? Probably.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:17 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
/ This implies something important has been lost. Something like community, civic responsibility, social consciousness, that type of something, a common humanity, not a debate about the fine print on your contract with a telco
Basic common sense is in short supply these days as well. Customer service people often can't solve a problem without a manual and 3 supervisors. Part of that is the managerial style of some companies, which is what appears to be part of Verizons problem.
posted by domino at 6:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Basic common sense is in short supply these days as well. Customer service people often can't solve a problem without a manual and 3 supervisors. Part of that is the managerial style of some companies, which is what appears to be part of Verizons problem.
posted by domino at 6:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Verizon deserves all the bad press from this that it deserves. AND MORE.
posted by DJZouke at 6:23 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 6:23 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
People who told me “who needs ham radio operators now that you’ve got the internet to coordinate emergency communications?” had better get a load of this.
posted by dr_dank at 6:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 6:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
In the wake of the protests in Bangladesh at the beginning of the month when the government shut off internet access (and similar incidents in past years around the world) I've been experimenting with the Briar Project Android app,† which provides encrypted texting designed to either be routed over the internet in a decentralized fashion or, if it's unavailable, directly between devices via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. If Wi-Fi access points are shut off as well I'm assuming you'd want to use Wi-Fi Direct to get a greater range between devices than Bluetooth would support. Of course, you'd need to have the app installed before the internet goes down...
Per the web site they've built a general-purpose communications platform that will be capable of more than just encrypted messaging and are interested in a variety of future applications, many emergency-related.
† Android-only; according to the project developers iOS prohibits some aspect of continuous network monitoring they require.
posted by XMLicious at 6:38 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Per the web site they've built a general-purpose communications platform that will be capable of more than just encrypted messaging and are interested in a variety of future applications, many emergency-related.
† Android-only; according to the project developers iOS prohibits some aspect of continuous network monitoring they require.
posted by XMLicious at 6:38 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
What if they had, with thorough research and expert deliberation, chosen the most optimal plan the state's budget and purchase policies allowed them?
People seem to forget that this is a government purchase, with all of the bureaucracy associated with it. If you have several roughly equivalent offers for something, it is generally considered a waste of taxpayer dollars to not go for the cheapest one.
You know that if these fires never occurred and they had gone with a better, but more expensive option, people would be up in arms about how these civil servants are living plush lives off of constituent tax dollars.
posted by Badgermann at 6:53 AM on August 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
People seem to forget that this is a government purchase, with all of the bureaucracy associated with it. If you have several roughly equivalent offers for something, it is generally considered a waste of taxpayer dollars to not go for the cheapest one.
You know that if these fires never occurred and they had gone with a better, but more expensive option, people would be up in arms about how these civil servants are living plush lives off of constituent tax dollars.
posted by Badgermann at 6:53 AM on August 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Saturday Night Live: Season 2: Episode 1
76a: Lily Tomlin / James Taylor
The Phone Company
Ernestine.....Lily Tomlin
Technician in background.....Al Franken
posted by mikelieman at 7:13 AM on August 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
76a: Lily Tomlin / James Taylor
The Phone Company
Ernestine.....Lily Tomlin
Technician in background.....Al Franken
Ernestine: A gracious hello. Here at the Phone Company, we handle eighty-four billion calls a year. Serving everyone from presidents and kings to the scum of the earth. So, we realize that, every so often, you can't get an operator, or for no apparent reason your phone goes out of order, or perhaps you get charged for a call you didn't make. We don't care!plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Watch this... [ she hits buttons maniacally ] We just lost Peoria.
You see, this phone system consists of a multibillion-dollar matrix of space age technology that is so sophisticated -- [ she hits buttons with her elbows ] even we can't handle it. But that's your problem, isn't it? So, the next time you complain about your phone service, why don't you try using two Dixie cups with a string? We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company.
posted by mikelieman at 7:13 AM on August 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
Aren't we beyond that sort of mentality about data at this point? Wasn't the reason for charging for data and capping data because the infrastructure wasn't built out and it would limit usage while they built it? It's been years!
As someone who used to work in telecom procurement, the carriers are constantly upgrading their networks at great cost. Verizon in particular has really upgraded their network with 4g data and coverage in the last few years.
This is course in no way excuses predatory pricing practices or negates the fact that most of the expansion of telecom service in the last few years were actually paid for by the government through the Connect America Fund.
posted by mayonnaises at 7:24 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
As someone who used to work in telecom procurement, the carriers are constantly upgrading their networks at great cost. Verizon in particular has really upgraded their network with 4g data and coverage in the last few years.
This is course in no way excuses predatory pricing practices or negates the fact that most of the expansion of telecom service in the last few years were actually paid for by the government through the Connect America Fund.
posted by mayonnaises at 7:24 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
telecomm providers like Verizon took various tax breaks and other benefits to build out infrastructure that they never built (like FIOS throughout NYC) - they aren't paying the cost, they're banking the money
posted by kokaku at 7:32 AM on August 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 7:32 AM on August 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
And people wonder how I can be a socialist in the bestest most free country in the world!
posted by evilDoug at 7:34 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 7:34 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
"Well, their IT people did pick too cheap a data plan."
No, they were sold a bullshit plan with arbitrary limits. Any package and price you pay for internet service is way too high and exploitative. The department shouldn't have to be worrying about throttling -- even if all the fire department did was download hi-res movies all day and night -- this still should never ever be an issue. Throttling isn't okay in any circumstance and the plans we are sold are unacceptable -- or they would be if the market wasn't completely broken. Ah, and of course the plan they bought was also misleading.
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:46 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
No, they were sold a bullshit plan with arbitrary limits. Any package and price you pay for internet service is way too high and exploitative. The department shouldn't have to be worrying about throttling -- even if all the fire department did was download hi-res movies all day and night -- this still should never ever be an issue. Throttling isn't okay in any circumstance and the plans we are sold are unacceptable -- or they would be if the market wasn't completely broken. Ah, and of course the plan they bought was also misleading.
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:46 AM on August 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
People who told me “who needs ham radio operators now that you’ve got the internet to coordinate emergency communications?” had better get a load of this.
While getting my electrical engineering degree in the early 2000s, I saw a lot of projects in IEEE Spectrum and wherever else that revolved around using cell networks in disaster areas. It seemed like a terrible idea to me then -- despite the obvious advantages in size and power requirements of cell antennas over traditional long-range radios -- and it still seems like a terrible idea to me. Of course, at the time, I was mainly thinking about infrastructure issues, i.e. cell reception blindspots created by the network itself failing due to, you know, being in a disaster area, but corporate malfeasance seems like a pretty good reason not to rely on cell services as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:56 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
While getting my electrical engineering degree in the early 2000s, I saw a lot of projects in IEEE Spectrum and wherever else that revolved around using cell networks in disaster areas. It seemed like a terrible idea to me then -- despite the obvious advantages in size and power requirements of cell antennas over traditional long-range radios -- and it still seems like a terrible idea to me. Of course, at the time, I was mainly thinking about infrastructure issues, i.e. cell reception blindspots created by the network itself failing due to, you know, being in a disaster area, but corporate malfeasance seems like a pretty good reason not to rely on cell services as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:56 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
I sense a lot of tech bros seeing this as a real missed opportunity. I mean just think if they could control the water the fire department used like they did the data! All that potential income lost.
We haven't yet seen day 2 of Maciej Ceglowski's round-up of this year's Y Combinator startups; perhaps it includes one to monetise everyone's shit not being on fire.
posted by acb at 7:57 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
We haven't yet seen day 2 of Maciej Ceglowski's round-up of this year's Y Combinator startups; perhaps it includes one to monetise everyone's shit not being on fire.
posted by acb at 7:57 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
People who told me “who needs ham radio operators now that you’ve got the internet to coordinate emergency communications?” had better get a load of this.
I'm on the periphery of the fire-fighter world. They already use radios for operations. My understanding is that this was command-post to outside.
That job needs to be able to teleconference with a wide range of people, the division/unit leads, municipal leaders, public health, communications, their own leadership. Unless HAM can do skype or some other web collab tool or, at the very least, a POTS conference call, it ain't going to cut it. Ideally they need a tool they can access public phones and be able to share the maps and photos and planning documents in real time. Security is a real concern too; you don't want anyone able to listen in, or worse interrupt or confuse an ops/planning meeting.
A phone is an essential piece of equipment, and a phone with a good data plan becoming almost mandatory. That said, I'm a little surprised they didn't have someone in the logistics unit who was assigned to telecom to work out these issues. In the larger responses I've been part of do, to the extent of getting the phone companies to set up towable field towers where needed. Maybe this was just a time issue or that of a section which had come in from out of state. these sorts of things can happen on big responses.
posted by bonehead at 8:00 AM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm on the periphery of the fire-fighter world. They already use radios for operations. My understanding is that this was command-post to outside.
That job needs to be able to teleconference with a wide range of people, the division/unit leads, municipal leaders, public health, communications, their own leadership. Unless HAM can do skype or some other web collab tool or, at the very least, a POTS conference call, it ain't going to cut it. Ideally they need a tool they can access public phones and be able to share the maps and photos and planning documents in real time. Security is a real concern too; you don't want anyone able to listen in, or worse interrupt or confuse an ops/planning meeting.
A phone is an essential piece of equipment, and a phone with a good data plan becoming almost mandatory. That said, I'm a little surprised they didn't have someone in the logistics unit who was assigned to telecom to work out these issues. In the larger responses I've been part of do, to the extent of getting the phone companies to set up towable field towers where needed. Maybe this was just a time issue or that of a section which had come in from out of state. these sorts of things can happen on big responses.
posted by bonehead at 8:00 AM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think there are a few different threads being conflated.
1. verizon should not be throttling emergency responders service during a crisis. that's shitty and inexcusable. something should be done, but what, and how could they be held accountable?
2. is `unlimited` the same as `unlimited and unthrottled`? that seems like a legitimate discussion
3. is VZW purposefully selling unlimited as unlimited and unthrottled? probably, and that's a shitty thing to do, but completely unsurprising.
thanks for reading my hot take on the issues of the day.
posted by askmehow at 8:06 AM on August 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
1. verizon should not be throttling emergency responders service during a crisis. that's shitty and inexcusable. something should be done, but what, and how could they be held accountable?
2. is `unlimited` the same as `unlimited and unthrottled`? that seems like a legitimate discussion
3. is VZW purposefully selling unlimited as unlimited and unthrottled? probably, and that's a shitty thing to do, but completely unsurprising.
thanks for reading my hot take on the issues of the day.
posted by askmehow at 8:06 AM on August 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Mobile devices in disasters are tricky. In civic disasters that affect a lot of people, they can get overburdened easily. Disasters that affect infrastructure, they can often be beneficial; many cell towers have their own fail-over power and can last for a while even when POTS or the electric grid is down. Back-woods coverage is a problem, which can be solved a bunch of ways: uhf radios (fancy versions of walkie talkies) can do to the horizon, more or less, but are voice only. Satellite phones work, but again voice only and the bounce delay can be really annoying. It's better to get the companies to set up towers where you need them if possible, especially if response is going to take more than a few weeks. At least, in my non-expert experience and opinion, ofc.
posted by bonehead at 8:07 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 8:07 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
The term "unlimited" dates back to the days of dialup, where ISPs used to charge you per-minute of connection time. An unlimited plan meant you paid a flat rate and could stay connected as long as you wanted. (And I'd hear the occasional outraged story on Slashdot about someone getting cut off after using a dedicated phone line to stay on their "unlimited" plan 24/7.)
When always-on broadband started to become a thing, the providers also advertised it as "unlimited" in that sense, and they've continued to do that non-stop since then. So this isn't technically fraud, only morally so.
But really, somebody needs to regulate this. ISPs need to be required to clearly specify precisely what is unlimited about this plan. "Unlimited" needs to be renamed to "Unlimited Connection Time" or (hah!) "Unlimited Data".
posted by suetanvil at 8:09 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
The term "unlimited" dates back to the days of dialup, where ISPs used to charge you per-minute of connection time. An unlimited plan meant you paid a flat rate and could stay connected as long as you wanted. (And I'd hear the occasional outraged story on Slashdot about someone getting cut off after using a dedicated phone line to stay on their "unlimited" plan 24/7.)
When always-on broadband started to become a thing, the providers also advertised it as "unlimited" in that sense, and they've continued to do that non-stop since then. So this isn't technically fraud, only morally so.
But really, somebody needs to regulate this. ISPs need to be required to clearly specify precisely what is unlimited about this plan. "Unlimited" needs to be renamed to "Unlimited Connection Time" or (hah!) "Unlimited Data".
posted by suetanvil at 8:09 AM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Unlimited isn’t unlimited.
Just like Everlasting Gobstoppers, the adjective is a description of the product's shelf life not the more important measure of how long you can actually enjoy it.
posted by peeedro at 8:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just like Everlasting Gobstoppers, the adjective is a description of the product's shelf life not the more important measure of how long you can actually enjoy it.
posted by peeedro at 8:20 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I hope nobody thinks Verizon is alone in this type of pricing. This is exactly the kind of "unlimited" plan I get from T-Mobile. It's technically unlimited: I never run out of data. But once I hit that 2GB limit towards the end of the month, everything slows to a craaaawwwwl.
This is a bog-standard pricing structure.
posted by suelac at 8:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is a bog-standard pricing structure.
posted by suelac at 8:31 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
They likely need a few hours a day talk time and at least a GB of data if they're doing any remote sensing and/or GIS/mapping stuff. Probably considerably more than that. They can blow through the limits of a normal plan, a few hundred minutes and a few GB data, very quickly, possibly even in a single day. The command post staff probably need 2-4 phones with this even for a smaller divisional command.
posted by bonehead at 8:38 AM on August 23, 2018
posted by bonehead at 8:38 AM on August 23, 2018
It should be illegal to use the word "unlimited" in a commercial context.
posted by qntm at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by qntm at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
The fact that the unlimited plans slow down towards the end of the month is the only thing keeping me from ditching cable altogether. It would be so great to have one less corp. behemoth to deal with.
posted by askmehow at 8:49 AM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by askmehow at 8:49 AM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
When always-on broadband started to become a thing, the providers also advertised it as "unlimited" in that sense, and they've continued to do that non-stop since then. So this isn't technically fraud, only morally so.
Nah... it's willful deception and thereby fraud by any reasonable standard. They're intentionally trying to create a faulty understanding on the part of the people who buy their services. It would also be fraudulent if they said, “That's the equivalent of sending the entire Encyclopedia Britannica as telegraphs several times, which no one could ever do, so it's appropriate to describe it as unlimited.”
posted by XMLicious at 8:59 AM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
The term "unlimited" dates back to the days of dialup, where ISPs used to charge you per-minute of connection time. An unlimited plan meant you paid a flat rate and could stay connected as long as you wanted.
In a mobile phone context, a limited plan was that there was a set number of minutes or amount of data you could use per month, and anything more than that got hit with stiff overage fees. As in exactly what Verizon forced the firefighters to switch to.
posted by ckape at 9:39 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
In a mobile phone context, a limited plan was that there was a set number of minutes or amount of data you could use per month, and anything more than that got hit with stiff overage fees. As in exactly what Verizon forced the firefighters to switch to.
posted by ckape at 9:39 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean, by definition doesn't unlimited mean without limits? I would suspect that knowingly or unknowingly putting any kind of limit would be clear false advertising at a minimum. Throttling limits the maximum data you can download because it's not possible to download more within the allotted time frame.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 10:02 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 10:02 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Basic common sense is in short supply these days as well. Customer service people often can't solve a problem without a manual and 3 supervisors.
The "common sense" being impugned, properly speaking, should be said to belong to the management of these companies, not the customer service reps. It's not necessarily the case that CSRs "can't" solve a problem because they're somehow too inept to figure out that there's a problem to solve -- they are not allowed to solve the problem. They are not given the authority to solve your problems. Because the company doesn't want your problems solved. Because it's cheaper to frustrate your customers by bouncing them around through endless phone and email and chat loops staffed by underpaid people (often contract workers) who are allowed to do little more than apologise, transfer calls, and absorb angry yelling. It's cheaper because a pretty good number of your customers get frustrated and hang up and then you don't actually have to provide them with the service they're ostensibly paying you for.
And properly speaking, it's not "common sense" that they lack -- indeed, the strategy shows they have plenty of common sense, because they benefit from this behaviour. What they lack is basic decency and a sense of responsibility to their customers, both as customers and as fellow humans.
posted by halation at 10:11 AM on August 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
The "common sense" being impugned, properly speaking, should be said to belong to the management of these companies, not the customer service reps. It's not necessarily the case that CSRs "can't" solve a problem because they're somehow too inept to figure out that there's a problem to solve -- they are not allowed to solve the problem. They are not given the authority to solve your problems. Because the company doesn't want your problems solved. Because it's cheaper to frustrate your customers by bouncing them around through endless phone and email and chat loops staffed by underpaid people (often contract workers) who are allowed to do little more than apologise, transfer calls, and absorb angry yelling. It's cheaper because a pretty good number of your customers get frustrated and hang up and then you don't actually have to provide them with the service they're ostensibly paying you for.
And properly speaking, it's not "common sense" that they lack -- indeed, the strategy shows they have plenty of common sense, because they benefit from this behaviour. What they lack is basic decency and a sense of responsibility to their customers, both as customers and as fellow humans.
posted by halation at 10:11 AM on August 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
You can't give customer service reps the power to fix problems of fire departments going over on their plans because they could end up using that power to fix problems of poor people going over on their plans.
posted by ckape at 10:26 AM on August 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by ckape at 10:26 AM on August 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
I hope nobody thinks Verizon is alone in this type of pricing. This is exactly the kind of "unlimited" plan I get from T-Mobile. It's technically unlimited: I never run out of data. But once I hit that 2GB limit towards the end of the month, everything slows to a craaaawwwwl.
This is a bog-standard pricing structure.
What plan is that? T-Mobile's current plan structure is T-Mobile ONE, as in, they have one plan. The "prioritization point" (i.e. throttling trigger) is 50GB, not 2GB.
posted by linux at 11:10 AM on August 23, 2018
What plan is that? T-Mobile's current plan structure is T-Mobile ONE, as in, they have one plan. The "prioritization point" (i.e. throttling trigger) is 50GB, not 2GB.
I (probably) have the same plan. "Simple Choice", $50/month for 2GB of data.
T-Mobile ONE is $70/month. The difference between the two is that Simple Choice is billed as "Unlimited Talk & Text" whereas T-Mobile ONE is billed as "Unlimited 4G LTE smartphone data" as well as "Unlimited Talk & Text".
So, no, they don't have just one plan.
posted by Automocar at 11:24 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I (probably) have the same plan. "Simple Choice", $50/month for 2GB of data.
T-Mobile ONE is $70/month. The difference between the two is that Simple Choice is billed as "Unlimited Talk & Text" whereas T-Mobile ONE is billed as "Unlimited 4G LTE smartphone data" as well as "Unlimited Talk & Text".
So, no, they don't have just one plan.
posted by Automocar at 11:24 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm a holdover from Simple Choice for $50/month.
posted by suelac at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2018
posted by suelac at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2018
The "prioritization point" (i.e. throttling trigger) is 50GB
With the volume of email they handle and any kind of multimedia use, and modelling does a lot of that now, you could blow through that on an 4G+ device in a week or so. During an event, we handle 2-3 GB of mail alone per day. Then there's the calls as well, often several hours worth in a day. They're using these phones not just as phones but as wireless hotspot/cabled modems for their computers too.
The new smart "one-window" ops rooms are extremely data hungry.
posted by bonehead at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
With the volume of email they handle and any kind of multimedia use, and modelling does a lot of that now, you could blow through that on an 4G+ device in a week or so. During an event, we handle 2-3 GB of mail alone per day. Then there's the calls as well, often several hours worth in a day. They're using these phones not just as phones but as wireless hotspot/cabled modems for their computers too.
The new smart "one-window" ops rooms are extremely data hungry.
posted by bonehead at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I encourage you all to read the email thread in the exhibit linked by carter above. It's stunning how casual the account manager at Verizon was! It seems to me -- and probably every other American, I'd guess -- that emergency personnel should get priority on internet traffic during emergency situations. Basic corporate social responsibility for a phone company should be "remove throttling" for emergency personnel when they ask for it. The emails from the fire chiefs go into detail why they need one unit's throttling turned off, and the Verizon manager is answering like they want a data cap lifted for a big game. WTF.
posted by stowaway at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
And the plan they switched to? $2/mo more.
posted by rhizome at 12:51 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:51 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nah... it's willful deception and thereby fraud by any reasonable standard.
This.
I need to let someone at Verizon know that this story just made my decision whether or not to switch to Verizon easy. Hell no. I'll just stick with the same ol' AT&T assholes.
Too bad they didn't have a few towers burn at the time that was happening. Maybe if it hit them in the pockets, they might actually care about their little mistake.
Indeed xdvesper, I feel ya. We can actually get real internet, but it comes with other crap as an expensive 'package' that you can't decline. So here we are on a dial up.... S l o w.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:10 PM on August 23, 2018
This.
I need to let someone at Verizon know that this story just made my decision whether or not to switch to Verizon easy. Hell no. I'll just stick with the same ol' AT&T assholes.
Too bad they didn't have a few towers burn at the time that was happening. Maybe if it hit them in the pockets, they might actually care about their little mistake.
Indeed xdvesper, I feel ya. We can actually get real internet, but it comes with other crap as an expensive 'package' that you can't decline. So here we are on a dial up.... S l o w.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:10 PM on August 23, 2018
Who would have thought that a single CSR could make Verizon look worse than a literal tire fire.
posted by rhizome at 1:54 PM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:54 PM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
we are talking a lot of gigabytes per day.
The last bigish response I worked was 2016, before that the 2010-2012 time frame. The volume of data more than doubled in that time, from 1-2 gb/day, to over 4 in '16. Pictures and movies are one of the biggest drivers, by far. In 2016, our heaviest datafeeds were HD video and 4k+ pictures. Telecons were at 1080ish resolution typically. I'm working on a research project now where that's also our standard, but then academics tend to be a generation or two behind the curve in terms of what tech they can afford.
If the fire services doing 4k video now, and I've seen equipment for drones that is, for example, I'd believe they could hit their 50GB throttle point in a 2-3 days.
IOW, I'm pretty sure we're in violent agreement.
They have a router in the vehicle that was giving them some ethernet ports or broadcasting WiFi.
Pretty standard now, rare even a few years ago. Also very standard for people to simply use phones as wifi hotspots.
posted by bonehead at 2:09 PM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
The last bigish response I worked was 2016, before that the 2010-2012 time frame. The volume of data more than doubled in that time, from 1-2 gb/day, to over 4 in '16. Pictures and movies are one of the biggest drivers, by far. In 2016, our heaviest datafeeds were HD video and 4k+ pictures. Telecons were at 1080ish resolution typically. I'm working on a research project now where that's also our standard, but then academics tend to be a generation or two behind the curve in terms of what tech they can afford.
If the fire services doing 4k video now, and I've seen equipment for drones that is, for example, I'd believe they could hit their 50GB throttle point in a 2-3 days.
IOW, I'm pretty sure we're in violent agreement.
They have a router in the vehicle that was giving them some ethernet ports or broadcasting WiFi.
Pretty standard now, rare even a few years ago. Also very standard for people to simply use phones as wifi hotspots.
posted by bonehead at 2:09 PM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
And the plan they switched to? $2/mo more.
There are 3 plans involved, $37.99/mo, $39.99/mo, and $99.99/mo+overage. The $2 bump seems to have at most reset the counter and they still had throttling problems after that, and when they complained again they got directed to the $99.99/mo plan.
posted by ckape at 2:29 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
There are 3 plans involved, $37.99/mo, $39.99/mo, and $99.99/mo+overage. The $2 bump seems to have at most reset the counter and they still had throttling problems after that, and when they complained again they got directed to the $99.99/mo plan.
posted by ckape at 2:29 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
911: 911, what is your emergency?
Caller: My name is Vinny and I work at Verizon. Our building is on fire!
911: Emergency services are already on scene.
Caller: Yes, but they’re using a hose that’s so small it can’t put out the fire!
911: I understand your frustration Vinny. Those are the hoses your tax dollars have paid for. If you would like bigger hoses we can upgrade them in exchange for the $2T in incentives that Verizon fraudulently received for not upgrading their infrastructure nationwide as promised.
Caller: That was only $1.2T!
911: Plus interest.
posted by Revvy at 2:52 PM on August 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
Caller: My name is Vinny and I work at Verizon. Our building is on fire!
911: Emergency services are already on scene.
Caller: Yes, but they’re using a hose that’s so small it can’t put out the fire!
911: I understand your frustration Vinny. Those are the hoses your tax dollars have paid for. If you would like bigger hoses we can upgrade them in exchange for the $2T in incentives that Verizon fraudulently received for not upgrading their infrastructure nationwide as promised.
Caller: That was only $1.2T!
911: Plus interest.
posted by Revvy at 2:52 PM on August 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
That email exchange is shocking. The fire service are very clear how vital it is, the rep is all blah blah let's chat whenever about your needs. WTAF! Things are burning down right now! I get an email like that and I escalate it to the most senior person I can because while it's out of the normal parameters of my role and beyond what I can authorize it's clearly very serious and urgent and I'm the gate they need to pass to get action. That person as an individual has a lot to answer for.
posted by kitten magic at 3:15 PM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by kitten magic at 3:15 PM on August 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Please hold and your fire will be extinguished in the order in which it was ignited.
posted by dr_dank at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Easy peasy to solve: we just need unlimited capitalism...
posted by cattypist at 4:11 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cattypist at 4:11 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh my. That email chain in the pdf has the name and email address of the dogmatic Major Accounts Manager, SILAS BUSS.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:07 PM on August 23, 2018
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:07 PM on August 23, 2018
I hate Verizon, I think the so called unlimited plans are absurd. But for fucksakkes, someone involved with the Mendocino Fire Department thought a $37.99 consumer grade phone plan would be a good idea for mission critical application? Do they get their fire hoses from Harbor Freight, their gloves from Dollar Tree, and their respirators in bulk from a Shenzhen supplier via Aliexpress? Oh, but it said "unlimited" so we wuz lied to? Yeah, sure. I mean, really, has anybody involved with the Mendocino Fire Department ever bought a cell phone before? They are professionals. They know exactly what kind of reliability they need. An emergency responder bought a cheap plan, and they got exactly what they paid for. As shitty as Verizon is, this isn't Verizon's fault. The Fire Department really fucked up here. Even if Verizon has instantly restored their data, the fact that the Fire Department had to ask at all, for something they absolutely should have know would happen, is a sign that they fucked up.
And people are strangely axe grindy about net neutrality with this incident. As if Verizon. VERIZON. would never have throttled data before Ajit Pai found himself running the FCC.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:39 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
And people are strangely axe grindy about net neutrality with this incident. As if Verizon. VERIZON. would never have throttled data before Ajit Pai found himself running the FCC.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:39 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Feels more likely to me that they actually told Verizon exactly what they were doing and the rep said, "This one's probably fine."
posted by ckape at 6:36 PM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ckape at 6:36 PM on August 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
I mean, they had an account manager assigned to them. Very clearly they were a special account because not every person on Verizon gets one of those. Kind of hard to just walk into a Verizon store and get that kind of treatment. Really puts the idea of "the fire department should've known better!" to the coals. What is the account manager for if not to make sure the account is getting what it needs?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:10 PM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:10 PM on August 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Santa Clara County Fire Department, not Mendocino (fire departments from all over the state, the world really, have traveled to these wildfires). And it was was a government plan, not a consumer plan. If you read the emails, the department staff thought their plan was adequate because they previously "had received approval from Verizon that public safety should never be gated down because of our critical infrastructure need for these devices." It's clear that the department was under the mistaken impression that unlimited did not mean "25GB and then you're down to sub-1999 DSL speeds." It's also clear that Verizon's definition of unlimited to mean that is fraudulent.
Should the department have known Verizon falsely advertises their plans? I think Verizon pulled a bait-and-switch on them. Thanks to the magic of the internet, we can see a 2015 Verizon government pricelist. Turn to page 9, and you'll see plan 84356, the $37.99 plan they were originally on (this document is for South Carolina, which helpfully posted it online. I don't know what Santa Clara County actually saw, but since I'm not proving anything in court here, I'll assume that the identical price and identical plan number means the offer was identical). Government subscribers only, 3G/4G Mobile Broadband Access Only, $37.99/month, Unlimited Domestic Data Allowance for Email and Internet/Intranet Browsing. Sure looks like an unlimited plan, not one throttled at 25GB/month. Later versions of that document do start mentioning the possibility of throttling on plan 84356. It does look like Verizon changed the plan on them at some point, but they were very much advertising plan 84356 as a truly unlimited 3G/4G data plan at one point.
AT&T did the same thing with their unlimited data plan, the one sold with the original iPhone. The FTC has spent years suing AT&T for selling unlimited plans and then later adding throttling to them. It looks like Verizon did much the same here.
I obviously don't have every document the Santa Clara officials saw, and perhaps some disclosure was in the fine print somewhere, but if you rent a car with unlimited mileage, you're going to be pretty furious if it turns out that means the car only moves at a walking pace once you drive more than 200 miles in a day.
It's not about net neutrality so much as consumer fraud really, though the two are linked. And since they were in the middle of fighting the largest goddamn fire in state history and asked their Verizon account manager to stop artificially throttling them, I fail to see how this "isn't Vierzon's fault."
posted by zachlipton at 8:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Should the department have known Verizon falsely advertises their plans? I think Verizon pulled a bait-and-switch on them. Thanks to the magic of the internet, we can see a 2015 Verizon government pricelist. Turn to page 9, and you'll see plan 84356, the $37.99 plan they were originally on (this document is for South Carolina, which helpfully posted it online. I don't know what Santa Clara County actually saw, but since I'm not proving anything in court here, I'll assume that the identical price and identical plan number means the offer was identical). Government subscribers only, 3G/4G Mobile Broadband Access Only, $37.99/month, Unlimited Domestic Data Allowance for Email and Internet/Intranet Browsing. Sure looks like an unlimited plan, not one throttled at 25GB/month. Later versions of that document do start mentioning the possibility of throttling on plan 84356. It does look like Verizon changed the plan on them at some point, but they were very much advertising plan 84356 as a truly unlimited 3G/4G data plan at one point.
AT&T did the same thing with their unlimited data plan, the one sold with the original iPhone. The FTC has spent years suing AT&T for selling unlimited plans and then later adding throttling to them. It looks like Verizon did much the same here.
I obviously don't have every document the Santa Clara officials saw, and perhaps some disclosure was in the fine print somewhere, but if you rent a car with unlimited mileage, you're going to be pretty furious if it turns out that means the car only moves at a walking pace once you drive more than 200 miles in a day.
It's not about net neutrality so much as consumer fraud really, though the two are linked. And since they were in the middle of fighting the largest goddamn fire in state history and asked their Verizon account manager to stop artificially throttling them, I fail to see how this "isn't Vierzon's fault."
posted by zachlipton at 8:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
It's fine to throw the subscription terms update into the trash and unread and say "you can't pay me enough to read this shit." I mean, it's fine unless you are in fact being paid to read that shit and not reading can have literally life and death implications.
This is not a defense of Verizon. Lots of people going up the chain should be fired there. It should be a business school case study of business impact when no one feels accountable. They should be publicly shamed so they realize how badly they screwed up. I'm not disagreeing with Verizon attacks.
But at the same time a while ago I knew people who did catastrophe planning exercises and it was amazing what you look for and worry about. I loved it when they talked about the logistics of keeping everything supplied--how do you maintain massive capacity when the baseline throughput is zero?
Similarly, there was an FPP a while ago about fire departments opposing cement dividers around bicycle lanes because they block access for the large trucks in an emergency. Didn't make me opposed to bike lanes but that's what the FD should be planning for--the rare event. So I'm sure Verizon is going to be a case study in incompetence, but I'm also sure a pretty basic mistake made by the fire department will be circulated around groups to tell you bandwidth needs to match peak capacity, not average with a safety margin.
posted by mark k at 9:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is not a defense of Verizon. Lots of people going up the chain should be fired there. It should be a business school case study of business impact when no one feels accountable. They should be publicly shamed so they realize how badly they screwed up. I'm not disagreeing with Verizon attacks.
But at the same time a while ago I knew people who did catastrophe planning exercises and it was amazing what you look for and worry about. I loved it when they talked about the logistics of keeping everything supplied--how do you maintain massive capacity when the baseline throughput is zero?
Similarly, there was an FPP a while ago about fire departments opposing cement dividers around bicycle lanes because they block access for the large trucks in an emergency. Didn't make me opposed to bike lanes but that's what the FD should be planning for--the rare event. So I'm sure Verizon is going to be a case study in incompetence, but I'm also sure a pretty basic mistake made by the fire department will be circulated around groups to tell you bandwidth needs to match peak capacity, not average with a safety margin.
posted by mark k at 9:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
bandwidth needs to match peak capacity, not average with a safety margin.
Sure, but that only goes to point out how ridiculous the "package" nonsense is. Making the fire department pay a higher rate all the time for capacity they might need only in rare occasions itself is bullshit. "Packages" aren't some naturally occurring phenomenon they should have to plan around. The analogy to electricity mentioned near the top of the discussion is apt. You don't have to plan your consumption of electricity ahead of time, thinking of the largest possible use scenarios and paying at that rate all the time, you pay for the amount you use and receive consistent service (barring some issue on the production end).
Even the phone companies recognized this near the end of their major "packaging" initiatives for long distance calling when they started talking about "rollover" minutes and sharing "unused" minutes. It's all nonsense, as if data and minutes are concrete things that can or need be stored, but that's the illusion they created to sell their products. The costs involved should be by use, but from a regulated evaluation of what the actual cost plus service and upkeep requires. Packages are nonsense.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:24 PM on August 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Sure, but that only goes to point out how ridiculous the "package" nonsense is. Making the fire department pay a higher rate all the time for capacity they might need only in rare occasions itself is bullshit. "Packages" aren't some naturally occurring phenomenon they should have to plan around. The analogy to electricity mentioned near the top of the discussion is apt. You don't have to plan your consumption of electricity ahead of time, thinking of the largest possible use scenarios and paying at that rate all the time, you pay for the amount you use and receive consistent service (barring some issue on the production end).
Even the phone companies recognized this near the end of their major "packaging" initiatives for long distance calling when they started talking about "rollover" minutes and sharing "unused" minutes. It's all nonsense, as if data and minutes are concrete things that can or need be stored, but that's the illusion they created to sell their products. The costs involved should be by use, but from a regulated evaluation of what the actual cost plus service and upkeep requires. Packages are nonsense.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:24 PM on August 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
That reminds me of one of my favorite commercials of all time, the "those minutes are old, mom!" spot.
posted by rhizome at 11:41 PM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:41 PM on August 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Even talking about packages seems to obscure the acceptance of the fire fighters even needing to contact a corporate third party to combat a disaster. That alone makes this all seem so wrong to me, where essential emergency services require the acquiescence of of profit seeking entity to be completed. The necessity of Verizon's involvement and impact of their decision making should, I'd think, be a frightening sign for anyone when thinking about how the process of providing needed services has been allowed to evolve. The need to consider Verizon, or have Verizon's own interests enter the picture is itself a problem. Just as it would be were the equipment and vehicles used held under a third party lease where they could limit access to them for revenue purposes.
It's unavoidable in some emergencies that there will be need of outside, third party assistance in dealing with the kinds of vast effects some disasters will have and the need for physical items in alleviating the situation or combating it, but for such vital service that faced minimal physical constraints, the very need to seek out third party cooperation to accomplish the basics of the job seems entirely wrong to me.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:53 AM on August 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
It's unavoidable in some emergencies that there will be need of outside, third party assistance in dealing with the kinds of vast effects some disasters will have and the need for physical items in alleviating the situation or combating it, but for such vital service that faced minimal physical constraints, the very need to seek out third party cooperation to accomplish the basics of the job seems entirely wrong to me.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:53 AM on August 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Well the firefighters' union has come around to supporting Caflirornia's net neutrality legislation: "CPF has come to conclude that if net neutrality is not restored, the effect could be disastrous to the public’s safety."
I'm still not entirely convinced this is exactly a net neutrality issue, but nice work making enemies out of firefighters, Verizon.
posted by zachlipton at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm still not entirely convinced this is exactly a net neutrality issue, but nice work making enemies out of firefighters, Verizon.
posted by zachlipton at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Greed. The drug of choice for assholes. Totally legal of course.
posted by juiceCake at 8:07 PM on August 24, 2018
posted by juiceCake at 8:07 PM on August 24, 2018
Yes, for-profit corporations are almost all assholes. They're not going to demonstrate awareness of any sort of ethical standard unless they are forced to.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:19 AM on August 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:19 AM on August 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Pissed Off by Verizon, Firefighters Join the Fight to Restore Net Neutrality. First responders join a chorus of angry Americans tired of big telecom’s nonsense.
FCC Criticized for Surrendering Power to Punish Verizon After Firefighters Got Throttled During Wildfire
posted by homunculus at 7:45 AM on September 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
FCC Criticized for Surrendering Power to Punish Verizon After Firefighters Got Throttled During Wildfire
posted by homunculus at 7:45 AM on September 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
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