Don't Call it a Pivot
January 8, 2023 10:01 AM Subscribe
The biggest change Biden made to Trump's border policy was the letterhead, which makes sense since he was VP when the cages were built. Republicans will never stop accusing the most nativist Democrats of supporting "open borders," but that's not a problem for them because a militarized anti-immigration system is in itself useful to the ruling class, to employers of undocumented workers, to manufacturers of tools of violence and surveillance, and to the fascist gangs that make up all law enforcement. To quote a liberal slogan which can be appropriately applied to America as a whole: the cruelty is the point.
posted by jy4m at 10:17 AM on January 8, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 10:17 AM on January 8, 2023 [24 favorites]
I'm recently hired by a company I thought was doing good things, I was told it was about providing services to migrants, especially unaccompanied minors. The pay was nice, the job looked interesting, I jumped to the new place.
They operate fucking kiddie concentration camps.
It's not all they do, but JFC that's like saying murder isn't all Jack the Ripper did. It's such a big thing it's all that really maters you know?
It's a very liberal outfit, and their website is full of talk about their women's shelters, homeless shelters, medical outreach for homeless people, drug rehab assistance, medical services for migrants, etc. They don't mention the prison camps for children, unless you count the very misleading parts about services for migrants. I didn't dig deeply enough when I was checking them out, it's my fault I took the job.
I'm frantically looking for a new job and I'm about 99% sure I have to quit this week and start delivering pizza or something despite having a family to feed. I just found out the truth on Friday, the thought of going back tomorrow sickens me, I can't be one of those technocratic jobsworth types who keep the gears of cruelty turning. The fact that I've got a kid depending on me for food and shelter is the only thing holding me back.
So yeah. The Democrats are just a nice face on the same evil policies, many of which were theirs to begin with. Biden's actions on the border were to do what Trump did and do it harder, he's tossing children in to prison camps, separating children from their parents, and running a rabidly racist immigration system.
The solution is open borders. Like real, genuine, no shit, open borders. The case for open borders is so good that even right wing economists agree that open borders are the best approach. Entry to the USA to work should be as simple as stopping off, getting a quick background check to make sure the person isn't wanted for anything that matters, and then getting an ID card.
It's like the War on Drugs, all our current policy does is make doing evil extremely profitable. And like the War on Drugs I expect our current border policy to keep going forever. The right is ideologically committed to the evil, the liberals are too wimpy to challenge it, and the left is villainized by both right and liberals for daring to point out the naked cruelty and enormous failure of both policies.
There are places where Biden is better than Trump, but on immigration and the border he's as bad or worse. Just quieter and less nakedly xenophobic and racist.
And now back to my job hunt. I think Pizza Hut hires drivers more or less instantly these days.
posted by sotonohito at 10:38 AM on January 8, 2023 [67 favorites]
They operate fucking kiddie concentration camps.
It's not all they do, but JFC that's like saying murder isn't all Jack the Ripper did. It's such a big thing it's all that really maters you know?
It's a very liberal outfit, and their website is full of talk about their women's shelters, homeless shelters, medical outreach for homeless people, drug rehab assistance, medical services for migrants, etc. They don't mention the prison camps for children, unless you count the very misleading parts about services for migrants. I didn't dig deeply enough when I was checking them out, it's my fault I took the job.
I'm frantically looking for a new job and I'm about 99% sure I have to quit this week and start delivering pizza or something despite having a family to feed. I just found out the truth on Friday, the thought of going back tomorrow sickens me, I can't be one of those technocratic jobsworth types who keep the gears of cruelty turning. The fact that I've got a kid depending on me for food and shelter is the only thing holding me back.
So yeah. The Democrats are just a nice face on the same evil policies, many of which were theirs to begin with. Biden's actions on the border were to do what Trump did and do it harder, he's tossing children in to prison camps, separating children from their parents, and running a rabidly racist immigration system.
The solution is open borders. Like real, genuine, no shit, open borders. The case for open borders is so good that even right wing economists agree that open borders are the best approach. Entry to the USA to work should be as simple as stopping off, getting a quick background check to make sure the person isn't wanted for anything that matters, and then getting an ID card.
It's like the War on Drugs, all our current policy does is make doing evil extremely profitable. And like the War on Drugs I expect our current border policy to keep going forever. The right is ideologically committed to the evil, the liberals are too wimpy to challenge it, and the left is villainized by both right and liberals for daring to point out the naked cruelty and enormous failure of both policies.
There are places where Biden is better than Trump, but on immigration and the border he's as bad or worse. Just quieter and less nakedly xenophobic and racist.
And now back to my job hunt. I think Pizza Hut hires drivers more or less instantly these days.
posted by sotonohito at 10:38 AM on January 8, 2023 [67 favorites]
“On one side, the Democratic Party identity for generations has been framed as pro-immigrant, and significant portions of its base are Asian, Latino and other voters supportive of newcomers. On the other, his administration is under pressure to assert more control at the border — a political vulnerability for Democrats, among independent voters and in swing states like Arizona.”
On the one hand, there's pressure to live up to our stated political and national ideals. On the other, there's a *significant* portion of people who we prefer listening to who say "We've got to get more racist".
This does show another response to "But what about bipartisanship?" though. "Biden widens the use of one of Trump's more controversial policies" would in a vacuum be *very* bipartisan. But instead Republicans won't grant him any credit (and will continue living in a world where Biden is in fact paving border roads & handing out sacks of money in exchange for votes). Even when you give Republicans what they want, they'll take more.
So many of the people quoted who've been involved in the expansion of US immigration policy over the last decade or two keep going at the refrain of "We'd like to help people so long as it's operationally & politically viable, but we don't want people going by land or in large disorganized groups". And I get that there's the unsaid reasons why this isn't seen as a 'viable' option. But to treat them like they're saying what they mean, why isn't the response
"Ok, let's make sure everybody has a safe & organized place to enter"?
It's not like it's unexplored territory. Caplan/Weinersmith's Open Borders - The Science & Ethics of Immigration makes a fairly compelling case & works through a lot of the as-presented counterarguments.
Border officials say crossings have eased significantly over the holidays.
By the time the president lands in Texas, the most visible signs of crisis will have been cleaned up.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:44 AM on January 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
On the one hand, there's pressure to live up to our stated political and national ideals. On the other, there's a *significant* portion of people who we prefer listening to who say "We've got to get more racist".
This does show another response to "But what about bipartisanship?" though. "Biden widens the use of one of Trump's more controversial policies" would in a vacuum be *very* bipartisan. But instead Republicans won't grant him any credit (and will continue living in a world where Biden is in fact paving border roads & handing out sacks of money in exchange for votes). Even when you give Republicans what they want, they'll take more.
So many of the people quoted who've been involved in the expansion of US immigration policy over the last decade or two keep going at the refrain of "We'd like to help people so long as it's operationally & politically viable, but we don't want people going by land or in large disorganized groups". And I get that there's the unsaid reasons why this isn't seen as a 'viable' option. But to treat them like they're saying what they mean, why isn't the response
"Ok, let's make sure everybody has a safe & organized place to enter"?
It's not like it's unexplored territory. Caplan/Weinersmith's Open Borders - The Science & Ethics of Immigration makes a fairly compelling case & works through a lot of the as-presented counterarguments.
Border officials say crossings have eased significantly over the holidays.
By the time the president lands in Texas, the most visible signs of crisis will have been cleaned up.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:44 AM on January 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
One reason people don't vote is they perceive little difference between the two dominant parties. In their minds it just doesn't matter which one you vote for, the end result is the same. This is a perfect example of that.
posted by tommasz at 10:46 AM on January 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 10:46 AM on January 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
...it was understandable that the president’s team remains “spooked by the border” as the president weighs a likely 2024 reelection bid.
Of course. Because the body count doesn't matter, compassion doesn't matter, promises don't matter. Only re-election matters, and if that means catering to the most sadistic voters, well, it's for the best. Someone will explain to us how there's nothing more important than keeping a Democrat in office, because maybe, in some future world, they will be able to make better policies--but not now, never now, for now all hands are tied.
posted by mittens at 10:48 AM on January 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Of course. Because the body count doesn't matter, compassion doesn't matter, promises don't matter. Only re-election matters, and if that means catering to the most sadistic voters, well, it's for the best. Someone will explain to us how there's nothing more important than keeping a Democrat in office, because maybe, in some future world, they will be able to make better policies--but not now, never now, for now all hands are tied.
posted by mittens at 10:48 AM on January 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
> I can't be one of those technocratic jobsworth types who keep the gears of cruelty turning
Can you be one of those whistle-blowers who get fired instead of quitting?
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:43 PM on January 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Can you be one of those whistle-blowers who get fired instead of quitting?
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:43 PM on January 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
You can't blow the whistle if there's nobody listening. In this case, there's an extremely healthy industry of what could be called... movement control... on one side, and a bunch of people with no money on the other.
Unfortunately, Trump didn't change that much in my experience. The man was into saying the quiet part out loud, that's for sure, but that quiet part is never going to stop. I think once people realize that, they get mad that they either have to endure it or dish it out and the anger goes toward the "prissy liberal" rather toward anyone else.
posted by kingdead at 12:57 PM on January 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Unfortunately, Trump didn't change that much in my experience. The man was into saying the quiet part out loud, that's for sure, but that quiet part is never going to stop. I think once people realize that, they get mad that they either have to endure it or dish it out and the anger goes toward the "prissy liberal" rather toward anyone else.
posted by kingdead at 12:57 PM on January 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think sotonohito should feel good about staying there several weeks/months more, just to learn what information they can access, what the public already really knows, and what is mildly sensitive or just requires an internal perspective. It's also not necessary to leak anything right way either, just take notes on what seems important, pay attention afterwards, and one day pass your notes onto some reporter who cares. It'll be a fun distraction from job hunting even.
As for what helps reporters, it's often stuff as mundane as site addresses, information about subcontractors, rough employee head counts, or even the internal propaganda text. Assange explains leaking well, leaks push conspiratorial organizations into being more compartmentalized, which then makes them think less clearly as organizations. I'd think merely a juicy piece of internal propaganda text would warrant the organization being shamed in some reporters otherwise general immigration article, which really does help.
If you want to be anonymous, try going through a news organization's secure drop server via tor browser. If you need to chat to reporters, then an old second hand android phone could often create a gmail with no phone number. Among the encrypted chat programs, Wire never has a phone number requirement in the past, not sure now. Telegram has iffy encryption but good enough for low level stuff, and maybe no phone number.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:03 PM on January 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
As for what helps reporters, it's often stuff as mundane as site addresses, information about subcontractors, rough employee head counts, or even the internal propaganda text. Assange explains leaking well, leaks push conspiratorial organizations into being more compartmentalized, which then makes them think less clearly as organizations. I'd think merely a juicy piece of internal propaganda text would warrant the organization being shamed in some reporters otherwise general immigration article, which really does help.
If you want to be anonymous, try going through a news organization's secure drop server via tor browser. If you need to chat to reporters, then an old second hand android phone could often create a gmail with no phone number. Among the encrypted chat programs, Wire never has a phone number requirement in the past, not sure now. Telegram has iffy encryption but good enough for low level stuff, and maybe no phone number.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:03 PM on January 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
As an immunocompromised person who basically can't go anywhere or do anything because the US is pretending the pandemic is over, led in part by Biden's own announcement, the continued use of the pandemic to justify Title 42 (and the new anti-China policy) is so fucking offensive. We won't do a single fucking thing to protect people from COVID within the country, but we'll use it as an excuse to justify xenophobia.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:06 PM on January 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 2:06 PM on January 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Someone needs to ask him in a press briefing how many kids died in the camps last year.
These are kids coming in from rough conditions, in all manner of conveyance, during a time of high risk of disease (strep, RSV, flu, COVID, etc) being kept in stressful, inhumane conditions. The border patrol has had people in those freezer rooms before too. There’s no way the body count is 0.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:23 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
These are kids coming in from rough conditions, in all manner of conveyance, during a time of high risk of disease (strep, RSV, flu, COVID, etc) being kept in stressful, inhumane conditions. The border patrol has had people in those freezer rooms before too. There’s no way the body count is 0.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:23 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just fyi, non-Americans cannot enter the US by air unless vaccinated for covid. In fact, they cannot even bypass this restriction by taking covid tests. I've recently noticed research that almost all have some covid positive passengers, so maybe not coming helps said non-vaccination people, but the broad policy is overall quite strict.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:26 PM on January 8, 2023
posted by jeffburdges at 2:26 PM on January 8, 2023
My post was specifically about that fact that absolutely no internal US policies are addressing controlling the spread of COVID anymore. We have no federal vaccine, test, or mask mandates, and as far as I know, no states and very few municipalities have any mandates in place anymore.
People are hyperventilating about how many people getting off planes from China are testing positive for COVID, but based on people I know who traveled recently for the holidays, at least as many domestic passengers also have COVID, it's just that nobody actually cares about that because they do not actually care about COVID. They care about xenophobia.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:33 PM on January 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
People are hyperventilating about how many people getting off planes from China are testing positive for COVID, but based on people I know who traveled recently for the holidays, at least as many domestic passengers also have COVID, it's just that nobody actually cares about that because they do not actually care about COVID. They care about xenophobia.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:33 PM on January 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Caplan/Weinersmith's Open Borders - The Science & Ethics of Immigration makes a fairly compelling case & works through a lot of the as-presented counterarguments.
Does it cover needing to have accurate predictions for population growth to be able to plan infrastructure, and how open borders (and also any other kind of massive increase in population growth) means that infrastructure gets overloaded before there's time to finish building a solution? That's always been a compelling counter-argument to me, even though I can also see that most governments have no incentive for building infrastructure until it's overloaded and they can get credit for solving a problem.
posted by Merus at 3:25 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does it cover needing to have accurate predictions for population growth to be able to plan infrastructure, and how open borders (and also any other kind of massive increase in population growth) means that infrastructure gets overloaded before there's time to finish building a solution? That's always been a compelling counter-argument to me, even though I can also see that most governments have no incentive for building infrastructure until it's overloaded and they can get credit for solving a problem.
posted by Merus at 3:25 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe its answer is two-fold:
1. Past cases of expanding immigration availability shows that the response is unlikely to be a sudden massive wave, in favor of gradual ramping-up as immigration tends to happen following social lines.
2. Estimates on the economic benefits range from giant on the conservative side to massive on the optimistic side, so if we're suffering-from-success to that degree it's a good thing we have this giant bucket of money we could use to solve the issue. (and a much expanded labor pool to enrich by training & paying accordingly)
Like you note, a reasonable counter-counter is questioning the effectiveness of US government to be able to respond to changes in requirements/demand; but that undergirds everything & at a certain point it becomes tricky to talk about policy if the only conclusion we can come to is "we can be effective at hurting people, but not helping them"
I'm not *fully* on board with Caplan, he's a bit far on the 'Surely a bad policy that can be passed is always better than the status quo' line for me; but it's something I can reach for as being fairly neutral-by-American-politics standards that's accessible & gets to an outcome I can cosign on.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:49 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. Past cases of expanding immigration availability shows that the response is unlikely to be a sudden massive wave, in favor of gradual ramping-up as immigration tends to happen following social lines.
2. Estimates on the economic benefits range from giant on the conservative side to massive on the optimistic side, so if we're suffering-from-success to that degree it's a good thing we have this giant bucket of money we could use to solve the issue. (and a much expanded labor pool to enrich by training & paying accordingly)
Like you note, a reasonable counter-counter is questioning the effectiveness of US government to be able to respond to changes in requirements/demand; but that undergirds everything & at a certain point it becomes tricky to talk about policy if the only conclusion we can come to is "we can be effective at hurting people, but not helping them"
I'm not *fully* on board with Caplan, he's a bit far on the 'Surely a bad policy that can be passed is always better than the status quo' line for me; but it's something I can reach for as being fairly neutral-by-American-politics standards that's accessible & gets to an outcome I can cosign on.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:49 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
yeah, I don't find those answers very satisfying, so if that's what they've gone with, that's kind of a problem.
(while I don't really expect there to be a massive wave of immigration, I can see how not being able to cap arrivals means you can't predict your population in 20 years time because you don't know how many people are going to arrive. I also don't think wealth is necessarily a factor here, big infrastructure projects take time and planning to do right and it's the time question I find more compelling than the cost question. Although, now I think about it, private enterprise do routinely overcharge governments because they know they can, so maybe the cost question isn't so trivially dismissed.)
Anyway, sorry, this is a sidebar to the core thread, which is: Biden has kids in cages
posted by Merus at 4:02 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
(while I don't really expect there to be a massive wave of immigration, I can see how not being able to cap arrivals means you can't predict your population in 20 years time because you don't know how many people are going to arrive. I also don't think wealth is necessarily a factor here, big infrastructure projects take time and planning to do right and it's the time question I find more compelling than the cost question. Although, now I think about it, private enterprise do routinely overcharge governments because they know they can, so maybe the cost question isn't so trivially dismissed.)
Anyway, sorry, this is a sidebar to the core thread, which is: Biden has kids in cages
posted by Merus at 4:02 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just fyi, non-Americans cannot enter the US by air unless vaccinated for covid. In fact, they cannot even bypass this restriction by taking covid tests. I've recently noticed research that almost all have some covid positive passengers, so maybe not coming helps said non-vaccination people, but the broad policy is overall quite strict.
As ridiculous a policy now as it was under trump. Flight : 50% american 50% non-american.
Only non yanks need vaccines or tests. Because it's the SCARY ALIENS who have the DISZEEEEESES.
If there is a constitutional or legal problem with requiring citizens to test, then the constitution or law in question is not fit for purpose.
posted by lalochezia at 4:32 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is a derail, and obviously the moral and human-rights case for freedom of movement is far more important than the economic one, but FWIW I don't see how the argument about predicting populations has much to do with anything. We already have freedom of movement between cities and states, and far more massive population shifts as a result than would ever be likely from immigration -- yet it is at the city and state level that those sorts of infrastructure calculations would need to be made. So if this were a valid argument at all, it should probably be applied first and foremost to internal migration.
posted by Not A Thing at 4:36 PM on January 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Not A Thing at 4:36 PM on January 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Does the US as a fairly large region with freedom of movement and no resulting disasters count as an example in favor of open borders?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:01 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:01 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Apparently the Border Patrol is upset because "the authorities" in El Paso have cleared the encampments. It's unclear if they're pinning this on the administration's security or the El Paso police.
posted by Selena777 at 5:02 PM on January 8, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 5:02 PM on January 8, 2023
I can't be one of those technocratic jobsworth types who keep the gears of cruelty turning
Could you be one of those technocratic types who keeps his head down while job searching, and focuses intently on actively sabotaging whatever projects he's assigned to in the meantime? What you're describing is literally my worst nightmare, and I can only hope I'd have the wherewithal to subtly introduce as many finicky little errors as possible before I got my Git privileges revoked. (The preferred vector here is definitely on the devops side--cloud deployment manifests are hard to read, and major version changes happen so frequently that it gives you plausible deniability for why you introduced a change to the ELB that will triple their AWS costs the first time there's a load spike, six months after you leave)
posted by Mayor West at 5:17 PM on January 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Could you be one of those technocratic types who keeps his head down while job searching, and focuses intently on actively sabotaging whatever projects he's assigned to in the meantime? What you're describing is literally my worst nightmare, and I can only hope I'd have the wherewithal to subtly introduce as many finicky little errors as possible before I got my Git privileges revoked. (The preferred vector here is definitely on the devops side--cloud deployment manifests are hard to read, and major version changes happen so frequently that it gives you plausible deniability for why you introduced a change to the ELB that will triple their AWS costs the first time there's a load spike, six months after you leave)
posted by Mayor West at 5:17 PM on January 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
"President Biden’s Irish ancestors escaped the Famine on coffin ships." is how that article opens. So yeah... I guess that's something to read.
posted by Avelwood at 7:04 PM on January 8, 2023
posted by Avelwood at 7:04 PM on January 8, 2023
I didn't read it. It might be a wonderful article. I don't fucking have the patience to read it.
posted by Avelwood at 7:12 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Avelwood at 7:12 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
sotonohito, I'm wishing you the best in your job search.
There's another possibility beside sabotage and investigation-- how useless can you be? It's kind of low-end sabotage, but just not doing your work while taking their money is something (if feasible) until you find another job.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:29 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's another possibility beside sabotage and investigation-- how useless can you be? It's kind of low-end sabotage, but just not doing your work while taking their money is something (if feasible) until you find another job.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:29 PM on January 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I understand the argument that the infrastructure can't take it. The USA has about 300 million people and no individual city has the capacity to house all of them. We could ask "but what if all 300 million decided to move to my city this year?" And yet, we don't institute border controls for cities.
Effectively, the housing market does that for us.
The housing market as it stands is pretty cruel in itself, and we should be doing everything we can to make it more responsive to people trying to move to our cities. But that's no reason to add *another* layer of cruel gatekeeping on top.
It goes the same for international migration. If someone moves to my city, they pay the same rent and taxes and utility fees whether they come here from outside the country or not. If anything, they're going to save me money--the cost of adding additional capacity to a system that serves a given area tends to go down as we add more people, because service to denser populations is cheaper per person.
There's always the question "what if they can't afford it and they come anyway?", and, sure, then you have a decision of how and whether to extend the social safety net to new immigrants.
If someone would rather be homeless in my town than return to their previous situation.... Well, then the conditions they lived in before were likely worse. So if I'm not OK with them moving to a tent in my city park, basically what I'm saying is that I'm fine with people living in poor conditions, I just don't want them to do it near me.
Yeah, maybe it increases the chances I'd have to personally witness inequality I otherwise only hear about, and that could make me uncomfortable.
Other than that, allowing people to move where they expect to be happiest and most productive seems like a huge win for everyone involved. I'm for it.
posted by bfields at 8:41 PM on January 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Effectively, the housing market does that for us.
The housing market as it stands is pretty cruel in itself, and we should be doing everything we can to make it more responsive to people trying to move to our cities. But that's no reason to add *another* layer of cruel gatekeeping on top.
It goes the same for international migration. If someone moves to my city, they pay the same rent and taxes and utility fees whether they come here from outside the country or not. If anything, they're going to save me money--the cost of adding additional capacity to a system that serves a given area tends to go down as we add more people, because service to denser populations is cheaper per person.
There's always the question "what if they can't afford it and they come anyway?", and, sure, then you have a decision of how and whether to extend the social safety net to new immigrants.
If someone would rather be homeless in my town than return to their previous situation.... Well, then the conditions they lived in before were likely worse. So if I'm not OK with them moving to a tent in my city park, basically what I'm saying is that I'm fine with people living in poor conditions, I just don't want them to do it near me.
Yeah, maybe it increases the chances I'd have to personally witness inequality I otherwise only hear about, and that could make me uncomfortable.
Other than that, allowing people to move where they expect to be happiest and most productive seems like a huge win for everyone involved. I'm for it.
posted by bfields at 8:41 PM on January 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just fyi, non-Americans cannot enter the US by air unless vaccinated for covid.
Is that new? Was there in october and at no time was asked about vaccination status.
posted by Iteki at 11:24 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is that new? Was there in october and at no time was asked about vaccination status.
posted by Iteki at 11:24 PM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s not new, it’s been the rule for awhile, but my experience is that it’s unevenly enforced.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:36 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 4:36 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Did not read TFA, scanned some of thread.
As hardcore D politics nerd would-be Social Democrat if we could have such a thing in America, I can confirm that the talk on forums where people like that talk is that Biden's immigration policy is inexplicably horrific.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:42 AM on January 9, 2023
As hardcore D politics nerd would-be Social Democrat if we could have such a thing in America, I can confirm that the talk on forums where people like that talk is that Biden's immigration policy is inexplicably horrific.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:42 AM on January 9, 2023
... my experience is that it’s unevenly enforced.
I think that applies to most laws.
posted by MtDewd at 11:41 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that applies to most laws.
posted by MtDewd at 11:41 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
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