Paved Paradise
May 3, 2023 11:06 AM Subscribe
I live in a Bay Area downtown neighborhood close to a commuter rail station so I can talk all day about parking. They are replacing parking lots and parking garages with high density housing with underground parking. They've also converted the downtown strip to pedestrian-only since the pandemic. We've temporarily lost maybe 300 surface parking spots and surprise surprise, it's OK. The three huge, free parking garages within a block of downtown remain empty. The big desire for parking is that it be right on the curb of your destination which is obviously impossible when your destination is a block of restaurants that each seat 30-100 people.
posted by muddgirl at 11:27 AM on May 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:27 AM on May 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Here in Houston a 100-year-old cathedral is being torn down. A parking lot will replace it.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 11:29 AM on May 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Midnight Skulker at 11:29 AM on May 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
One of my favorite takeout restaurants has a parking lot attached with about 15 spaces. Those spaces have signs: 1 for the manager of the spa next door, 3 for guests of the spa, 3 for the pizza place next door, 2 each for two separate acronyms that reside in the nearby office building, and the rest are for "guests", with a two-hour parking limit.
This restaurant is at a nexus of two lines of public transit, and there are residential side streets with additional parking (though with a two-hour limit unless you live in that neighborhood) but most of those spots are perpetually taken. I frequent the restaurant long after the office building and the spa are closed, and yet I'm always reluctant to park in spots signed for those businesses for fear of towing. And this restaurant is busy enough that the lot could frequently be full just with it and the pizza place's business.
It would be nice if places could share their parking more appropriately, but then you also have the issue of cars parking somewhere when it's not a problem, but then not moving their cars when the spots are needed for their intentional use.
posted by Night_owl at 11:45 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This restaurant is at a nexus of two lines of public transit, and there are residential side streets with additional parking (though with a two-hour limit unless you live in that neighborhood) but most of those spots are perpetually taken. I frequent the restaurant long after the office building and the spa are closed, and yet I'm always reluctant to park in spots signed for those businesses for fear of towing. And this restaurant is busy enough that the lot could frequently be full just with it and the pizza place's business.
It would be nice if places could share their parking more appropriately, but then you also have the issue of cars parking somewhere when it's not a problem, but then not moving their cars when the spots are needed for their intentional use.
posted by Night_owl at 11:45 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Onion still comes up with a good one every now and then:
New Houston Law Requires 10 Parking Spaces For Every Parking Space
posted by bfields at 11:48 AM on May 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
New Houston Law Requires 10 Parking Spaces For Every Parking Space
posted by bfields at 11:48 AM on May 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
The three huge, free parking garages within a block of downtown remain empty. The big desire for parking is that it be right on the curb of your destination which is obviously impossible when your destination is a block of restaurants that each seat 30-100 people.
Feel this so hard. My medium size town has the exact same situation, and people will go on the local subreddit to complain about same. Big contrast to Philly where parking is a sport (or a war, depending on who you ask).
posted by supercres at 11:57 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Feel this so hard. My medium size town has the exact same situation, and people will go on the local subreddit to complain about same. Big contrast to Philly where parking is a sport (or a war, depending on who you ask).
posted by supercres at 11:57 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Once you see it, it can’t be unseen: the astonishing amount of land this country has devoted to storing cars.
I've been car-free for 15+ years now (happily). Cars just look like trash everywhere to me. And I do mean EVERYWHERE. I have to literally escape into the woods to get away from a car.
It's too much.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:01 PM on May 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
I've been car-free for 15+ years now (happily). Cars just look like trash everywhere to me. And I do mean EVERYWHERE. I have to literally escape into the woods to get away from a car.
It's too much.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:01 PM on May 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
People don’t seem to consider parking at all. Where I have my laundry done is in a shopping center with a supermarket, so plenty of parking. But the owner of the laundry parks right in front of their shop, so even though people are going in and out all day carrying laundry, that spot is filled with a car that just sits there doing nothing. The laundry is between a toy store and a newsstand, so even if a patron of one of those parked in front of the laundry from time to time, it wouldn’t keep the space filled that often.
posted by snofoam at 12:03 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:03 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
This article is so weird, skipping the part where you reduce the need for cars.
posted by dame at 12:04 PM on May 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dame at 12:04 PM on May 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Too many cars is a problem, for sure. But the article is mostly about how parking is misallocated and misused in ways that cause problems even though we have way more parking than cars. It seems reasonable for the author to stick with their topic even though there are other related issues.
posted by snofoam at 12:10 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:10 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
This article is so weird, skipping the part where you reduce the need for cars.
I mean, there's this bit here:
posted by gauche at 12:12 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, there's this bit here:
Focusing on demand for parking, on the other hand, can help resolve this conundrum. That has been one of the central insights of Donald Shoup, the parking scholar whose 2005 book The High Cost of Free Parking put a spotlight on America’s tragic obsession with parking supply. About a third of downtown traffic consists of drivers looking for parking. By pricing the curb correctly, Shoup argued, you could make that traffic vanish overnight. In the long term, you could avoid the cost of creating more parking and use the extra money to encourage people to carpool, use transit, or ride a bike. When San Francisco adopted Shoup’s pricing suggestions a few years ago, some streets did get more expensive—but other places to park, including the city’s public garages, got cheaper.It's also an excerpt from a book which may get into some of the ways to reduce demand for cars in more detail.
posted by gauche at 12:12 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I thought this was an even-handed article on why business owners desperately fight for disused parking lots: Who Is Trying to ‘Save Parking Structure 3’ From Becoming Affordable Housing?
posted by meowzilla at 12:17 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Getting rid of Parking Structure 3 is an obvious choice according to multiple experts, city officials, and studies. And yet, there is also a campaign to “Save Parking Structure 3” from this fate, spearheaded by business owners who imagine that demolishing it will represent the first step in a disastrous process resulting in nothing less than downtown Santa Monica becoming a “wasteland.”The style of traditional, dense downtowns with lots of people is incompatible with lots of parking, unless the land is valuable enough to put parking lots underground.
posted by meowzilla at 12:17 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Too many cars is a problem, for sure. But the article is mostly about how parking is misallocated and misused in ways that cause problems even though we have way more parking than cars.
No, I can see that thesis statement, but owning a car, and parking that car are ultimately linked. For each car, you need both parking for where you keep the car near your home as well as where you're going - as well as the space it occupies in transit. Two of those three things are plastic, which is why cars take up so much of our public space.
The, "just one more lane bro" meme could also be, "just one more parking spot, bro" as it's the same problem. "One more" anything isn't going to solve the problem. Adding parking usually removes a thing you want to park next to - or perhaps laterally: makes it more expensive to get to the thing you want to park next to that you decide not to park next to it anyways.
It's also why getting rid of "just one" car actually does help the issue, as you get rid of three car-sized spaces for other public uses. Three cars, and that's a whole bus you can fit into the fabric of the city.
But, we're not doing that, and cars are just getting bigger - like why TF are we driving F-150's in the city?
posted by alex_skazat at 12:49 PM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
No, I can see that thesis statement, but owning a car, and parking that car are ultimately linked. For each car, you need both parking for where you keep the car near your home as well as where you're going - as well as the space it occupies in transit. Two of those three things are plastic, which is why cars take up so much of our public space.
The, "just one more lane bro" meme could also be, "just one more parking spot, bro" as it's the same problem. "One more" anything isn't going to solve the problem. Adding parking usually removes a thing you want to park next to - or perhaps laterally: makes it more expensive to get to the thing you want to park next to that you decide not to park next to it anyways.
It's also why getting rid of "just one" car actually does help the issue, as you get rid of three car-sized spaces for other public uses. Three cars, and that's a whole bus you can fit into the fabric of the city.
But, we're not doing that, and cars are just getting bigger - like why TF are we driving F-150's in the city?
posted by alex_skazat at 12:49 PM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Richmond VA just eliminated all parking minimums for new construction. Developers can now build new housing and office space without providing off-street parking. Don't know what impact, if any, it'll have, but it seems like a small step in the right direction.
posted by COD at 1:02 PM on May 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by COD at 1:02 PM on May 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed the article and appreciated the fact that it focused on a specific part of the problem that I was not as familiar with. It was genuinely surprising to learn how much total parking is available in cities, although the five spaces per household in Seattle could still mean there are not enough in certain neighborhoods. And I wish I knew for Prospect Heights or downtown Portland or some other area I know and can visualize.
posted by snofoam at 1:09 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:09 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was just thinking of this as I walked the dog.
Our local school is being renovated, and they have built a temporary school out of containers in the playground and then closed the street which runs along the playground for a temporary playground. One would think that this plan, which has removed at least a dozen and maybe more parking spots, would make it harder to find a parking space. After all, we are the same number of residents with the same number of cars, and parking as a non-resident is expensive. But it is MUCH easier to find a space now, and there are far more than a dozen free spaces when I get home from work, many of them closer to my apartment, where before, I often had to park illegally and either hope I didn't get a ticket or go down and move the car very early in the morning, like 3 or 4 AM.
I really wonder who parked all those cars before? During daytime, I get it, sort of. We are in a neighborhood with lots of shops and restaurants and some big institutions. I can see those people choosing public transportation now. But who are the people who were parking over night, and where are they now?
posted by mumimor at 1:14 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Our local school is being renovated, and they have built a temporary school out of containers in the playground and then closed the street which runs along the playground for a temporary playground. One would think that this plan, which has removed at least a dozen and maybe more parking spots, would make it harder to find a parking space. After all, we are the same number of residents with the same number of cars, and parking as a non-resident is expensive. But it is MUCH easier to find a space now, and there are far more than a dozen free spaces when I get home from work, many of them closer to my apartment, where before, I often had to park illegally and either hope I didn't get a ticket or go down and move the car very early in the morning, like 3 or 4 AM.
I really wonder who parked all those cars before? During daytime, I get it, sort of. We are in a neighborhood with lots of shops and restaurants and some big institutions. I can see those people choosing public transportation now. But who are the people who were parking over night, and where are they now?
posted by mumimor at 1:14 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Buffalo removed all parking minimums several years ago and it appears to be paying off.
Now, that's an easier call to make in a city that has infrastructure designed for a larger population than what it currently has. But parking, and especially parking requirements in the zoning code which may or may not reflect market realities, significantly increase the cost of development.
I'm literally on break right now between panel discussions in a housing accelerator summit of planners and mayors, and parking just came up as a major issue that drives up the cost of housing development, making it harder to build housing and especially affordable housing, and increases the amount of public subsidy (whether it be LIHTC, TIF funding, etc) needed for the developer's pro forma to balance out if you want affordable or even just non-luxury housing.
posted by misskaz at 1:17 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now, that's an easier call to make in a city that has infrastructure designed for a larger population than what it currently has. But parking, and especially parking requirements in the zoning code which may or may not reflect market realities, significantly increase the cost of development.
I'm literally on break right now between panel discussions in a housing accelerator summit of planners and mayors, and parking just came up as a major issue that drives up the cost of housing development, making it harder to build housing and especially affordable housing, and increases the amount of public subsidy (whether it be LIHTC, TIF funding, etc) needed for the developer's pro forma to balance out if you want affordable or even just non-luxury housing.
posted by misskaz at 1:17 PM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here in Houston a 100-year-old cathedral is being torn down. A parking lot will replace it.
The cruel irony of that is that Americans would rather worship cars.
I've been in some miserable towns in my life, but Houston is Jane Jacob's sleep paralysis demon.
posted by mhoye at 1:48 PM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
The cruel irony of that is that Americans would rather worship cars.
I've been in some miserable towns in my life, but Houston is Jane Jacob's sleep paralysis demon.
posted by mhoye at 1:48 PM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
There are a few suburban malls that are being redeveloped in the Toronto area. The malls are staying where they are but much of their large parking lots are being converted into condos, which sounds like a much better use of the space to me. But of course people are complaining because they don't want those mall parking spaces to go away.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2023
I do actually think that without thinking about removing cars, this is just embroidering around the real problem and impoverishing our shared spaces. As a non-driver who lives in the middle of a European city, I don't want curb spaces to be more expensive. I want them to be gone. Here it is obvious, because there is tons of public transit and bike lanes and yet people in my neighborhood put their personal trash everywhere. I don't want that to be easier. In cities that don't have the alternate advantages I do have, I want books about how to really make them possible without jacking up the prices to make people without real options suffer.
Not to mention that with climate change we should really be reducing car use, etc., etc., all the stuff you all know.
It's truly the worst of insufficient neoliberal fake problem solving. Things are too dire to be embroidering AND we could all be happier by rethinking the fundamental assumptions.
posted by dame at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not to mention that with climate change we should really be reducing car use, etc., etc., all the stuff you all know.
It's truly the worst of insufficient neoliberal fake problem solving. Things are too dire to be embroidering AND we could all be happier by rethinking the fundamental assumptions.
posted by dame at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
→
The biggest objection to a proposed affordable housing development near me (Toronto, east end) was that it would tear up a parking lot. The opposition group was led by several local realtors, which makes me think they're mad that there will be housing out there that they can't take their cut on.
Also, I found that the (relatively) giant parking lot at Scarborough GO station is free. All other GO stations charge something, but not this one.
posted by scruss at 2:28 PM on May 3, 2023
people are complaining because they don't want those mall parking spaces to go away.
The biggest objection to a proposed affordable housing development near me (Toronto, east end) was that it would tear up a parking lot. The opposition group was led by several local realtors, which makes me think they're mad that there will be housing out there that they can't take their cut on.
Also, I found that the (relatively) giant parking lot at Scarborough GO station is free. All other GO stations charge something, but not this one.
posted by scruss at 2:28 PM on May 3, 2023
The cruel irony of that is that Americans would rather worship cars.
This evokes images of Moses and golden calf from the 2008 GFC...
Local car dealerships donated three hybrid SUVs to be displayed during the service, one from each of the Big Three. A Ford Escape, Chevy Tahoe from GM and a Chrysler Aspen were parked just in front of the choir and behind the pulpit.
Ellis said he and other Detroit ministers would pray and fast until Congress voted on a bailout for Detroit’s embattled automakers.
----
About a third of downtown traffic consists of drivers looking for parking.
This is kind of my experience. I had to study evening classes about 30km from where I lived and worked. Initially I could just drive in after work, park, and get to class. They then removed half the parking lots in the area to expand the existing public park about 10% in size. Now if I go for classes... I spend about 10-15 minutes driving around in circles looking for a car park, which just seems insane from a safety point of view (you're driving in a loop in twilight hours just at the edge of a public park while your eyes are desperately scanning for a newly vacated parking lot and competing with other drives also zipping around). Also insane from an emissions point of view (why am I burning fossil fuels for this, and right next to a public park) and also insane from a congestion point of view, as if cities aren't congested enough.
posted by xdvesper at 2:39 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This evokes images of Moses and golden calf from the 2008 GFC...
Local car dealerships donated three hybrid SUVs to be displayed during the service, one from each of the Big Three. A Ford Escape, Chevy Tahoe from GM and a Chrysler Aspen were parked just in front of the choir and behind the pulpit.
Ellis said he and other Detroit ministers would pray and fast until Congress voted on a bailout for Detroit’s embattled automakers.
----
About a third of downtown traffic consists of drivers looking for parking.
This is kind of my experience. I had to study evening classes about 30km from where I lived and worked. Initially I could just drive in after work, park, and get to class. They then removed half the parking lots in the area to expand the existing public park about 10% in size. Now if I go for classes... I spend about 10-15 minutes driving around in circles looking for a car park, which just seems insane from a safety point of view (you're driving in a loop in twilight hours just at the edge of a public park while your eyes are desperately scanning for a newly vacated parking lot and competing with other drives also zipping around). Also insane from an emissions point of view (why am I burning fossil fuels for this, and right next to a public park) and also insane from a congestion point of view, as if cities aren't congested enough.
posted by xdvesper at 2:39 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here in Boston, and specifically Back Bay, the swanky residential neighborhood, there is a flurry of news activity every two or three years whenever the record for the sale of a single parking space is broken.
The going rate in the Back Bay is well into six figures, somewhere between 200-500k with enclosed spaces getting the highest price.
These reports are inevitably accompanied by comments such as "wow, must be nice", etc. Rarely are they accompanied by calls to "eat the rich."
posted by jeremias at 2:45 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The going rate in the Back Bay is well into six figures, somewhere between 200-500k with enclosed spaces getting the highest price.
These reports are inevitably accompanied by comments such as "wow, must be nice", etc. Rarely are they accompanied by calls to "eat the rich."
posted by jeremias at 2:45 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did not hold a driver's license until I was 38 years old so I went the vast majority of my life car-free. When I lived in San Francisco, this was largely a mild inconvenience. A majority of what I wanted to do could be done with a transit system that was adequate until the mid-late 90s. Not all, mind you: anything that occurred outside the 7x7 itself might as well have been happening on the other side of the moon for its inaccessibility. And I assure you, moving via garbage bag on a bus is not easy or fun.
For the several years when I lived in rural and exurban areas, it was utterly crippling. There were times I literally went hungry for lack of transportation.
I tell you all this to set the context: I'm not coming by my opinions as some kind of inveterate suburbanite with limited transportational life experience.
The vast majority of looking around for more than a few minutes for a parking space in my life has not been in parking lots or at malls or places where parking structures existed within miles of my location. Not finding a parking space, in my experience, has been a function of this: businesses and homes exist on streets, and there are more of those along a street than there are parking spaces. Demand drastically outstrips supply in the places I'm trying to be, which is within a quarter mile or so of a particular business or residence.
No infrastructure changes, no payment schemes, no permit systems, nothing is going to change that. There are simply more cars than parking spaces at those destinations. There's a Target 10 minutes from my house with 300 empty parking spaces, but if I want to visit my mother in law I'm going to drive around Telegraph Hill for 20 minutes trying not to die to all the Ubers and double parkers.
Demand has to come down. That's trillions upon trillions of dollars spent to undo decades of damage, but it's what has to be done.
posted by majick at 2:47 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
For the several years when I lived in rural and exurban areas, it was utterly crippling. There were times I literally went hungry for lack of transportation.
I tell you all this to set the context: I'm not coming by my opinions as some kind of inveterate suburbanite with limited transportational life experience.
The vast majority of looking around for more than a few minutes for a parking space in my life has not been in parking lots or at malls or places where parking structures existed within miles of my location. Not finding a parking space, in my experience, has been a function of this: businesses and homes exist on streets, and there are more of those along a street than there are parking spaces. Demand drastically outstrips supply in the places I'm trying to be, which is within a quarter mile or so of a particular business or residence.
No infrastructure changes, no payment schemes, no permit systems, nothing is going to change that. There are simply more cars than parking spaces at those destinations. There's a Target 10 minutes from my house with 300 empty parking spaces, but if I want to visit my mother in law I'm going to drive around Telegraph Hill for 20 minutes trying not to die to all the Ubers and double parkers.
Demand has to come down. That's trillions upon trillions of dollars spent to undo decades of damage, but it's what has to be done.
posted by majick at 2:47 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's truly the worst of insufficient neoliberal fake problem solving.
What is?
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:59 PM on May 3, 2023
What is?
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:59 PM on May 3, 2023
Too many cars is a problem, for sure. But the article is mostly about how parking is misallocated and misused in ways that cause problems even though we have way more parking than cars.
It feels counter-intuitive, but there is definitely some truth in there being plenty of parking in most places. The problem is that parking is private, reserved and not available to anyone else at any price. I absolutely disagree with reducing requirements for developers to provide parking, but the parking they do provide should not be reserved. We can solve most of our parking problems by making all parking free and available to everyone, except that it would encourage more cars into city centres. I worked in our nearby capital city for over 15 years and most people working there used public transport only because the high cost of parking made it prohibitive to drive. So it may be that parking needs to be charged in some places, particularly where cars are just being parked for the whole day where that single parking spot could provide space for multiple cars over the day.
posted by dg at 3:31 PM on May 3, 2023
It feels counter-intuitive, but there is definitely some truth in there being plenty of parking in most places. The problem is that parking is private, reserved and not available to anyone else at any price. I absolutely disagree with reducing requirements for developers to provide parking, but the parking they do provide should not be reserved. We can solve most of our parking problems by making all parking free and available to everyone, except that it would encourage more cars into city centres. I worked in our nearby capital city for over 15 years and most people working there used public transport only because the high cost of parking made it prohibitive to drive. So it may be that parking needs to be charged in some places, particularly where cars are just being parked for the whole day where that single parking spot could provide space for multiple cars over the day.
posted by dg at 3:31 PM on May 3, 2023
At this point, in the center city, the value of a parking space significantly outstrips the value of just about any car parked in it. When we require buildings to be accompanied by parking spaces, we're effectively requiring them to pay for most of the automotive expenses of their residents and visitors.
So if you have limited money, you have a choice: you can live in the center and save money by not having a car -- but you have to subsidize your neighbors'. Or you can live on the outskirts -- but you have to spend a bunch of money on a car.
If you want to avoid paying for cars, you can live where you absolutely need a car, and not have one, and be miserable. It is a huge tax on the poor.
posted by alexei at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
So if you have limited money, you have a choice: you can live in the center and save money by not having a car -- but you have to subsidize your neighbors'. Or you can live on the outskirts -- but you have to spend a bunch of money on a car.
If you want to avoid paying for cars, you can live where you absolutely need a car, and not have one, and be miserable. It is a huge tax on the poor.
posted by alexei at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Demand has to come down.
The traditional way to manage a limited shared resource that has no easy upper bound on demand is to charge for it. The aforementioned The High Cost of Free Parking (go read the first chapter on Don Shoup's website) suggests that in places where the primary concern is lack of parking, a good ballpark is to charge a high enough price that you run around 85% occupancy. This generally means that a person can find a spot on the block face in front of the store they're going to.
Turn the revenues from that back into improvements in the neighborhood to get the neighbors onboard, and if prices get high enough, either the market will decide that there's reason to allocate land to building more parking, or more parking can be part of that neighborhood improvement.
...but there is definitely some truth in there being plenty of parking in most places.
I quite enjoy the Strong Towns Black Friday Parking initiative, which targets parking minimums by pointing out empty retail parking on the day after Thanksgiving, but "plenty of parking" is one of those weird things that we've created a cultural norm for. The idea that policy needs to always provide a space to put your private property on public streets needs to change. You'll never be homeless in the United States if you're a car...
posted by straw at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2023
The traditional way to manage a limited shared resource that has no easy upper bound on demand is to charge for it. The aforementioned The High Cost of Free Parking (go read the first chapter on Don Shoup's website) suggests that in places where the primary concern is lack of parking, a good ballpark is to charge a high enough price that you run around 85% occupancy. This generally means that a person can find a spot on the block face in front of the store they're going to.
Turn the revenues from that back into improvements in the neighborhood to get the neighbors onboard, and if prices get high enough, either the market will decide that there's reason to allocate land to building more parking, or more parking can be part of that neighborhood improvement.
...but there is definitely some truth in there being plenty of parking in most places.
I quite enjoy the Strong Towns Black Friday Parking initiative, which targets parking minimums by pointing out empty retail parking on the day after Thanksgiving, but "plenty of parking" is one of those weird things that we've created a cultural norm for. The idea that policy needs to always provide a space to put your private property on public streets needs to change. You'll never be homeless in the United States if you're a car...
posted by straw at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2023
One of the many depressing things you can see online is when someone posts a golden-hour glamour shot of a walkable city street that's clean, welcoming, got nice amenities, looks warm and comfy, and then you go in the comments and there's all these motherfuckers going "nobody wants to live like that, where am I going to park, where am I going to install my backyard swimming pool," etc., etc.
posted by grobstein at 5:15 PM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 5:15 PM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
For a long time I've wondered what I find so alluring and strangely human about Japan urban scenes, and then someone tweeted it: Japan doesn't have on-street parking. There are still plenty of cars though, they just have to park in private garages. Cities aren't giving up public land for private cars.
posted by meowzilla at 5:25 PM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 5:25 PM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
The traditional way to manage a limited shared resource that has no easy upper bound on demand is to charge for it.
Charging people even more than two bucks an hour to go to work or live at home is probably not the ideal or equitable way to solve this problem. You can alleviate those problems with permit stickers, such as is done today, and then you get your parking scarcity back. You can add some more arcane parking rules on top of that, you can make your tow truck drivers even more aggressive, you can make your impound lots even more exploitive and expensive than the $600 it costs to get your car back today for being three inches into a driveway, but none of that actually has solved the urban demand problem.
I am not yet convinced that we can fee and penalty our way out of the fundamental problem. Intuitively this reads to me a bit like making park benches too expensive to be homeless on.
posted by majick at 6:51 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Charging people even more than two bucks an hour to go to work or live at home is probably not the ideal or equitable way to solve this problem. You can alleviate those problems with permit stickers, such as is done today, and then you get your parking scarcity back. You can add some more arcane parking rules on top of that, you can make your tow truck drivers even more aggressive, you can make your impound lots even more exploitive and expensive than the $600 it costs to get your car back today for being three inches into a driveway, but none of that actually has solved the urban demand problem.
I am not yet convinced that we can fee and penalty our way out of the fundamental problem. Intuitively this reads to me a bit like making park benches too expensive to be homeless on.
posted by majick at 6:51 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another theory for our fixation with parking is that it’s not included in driving directions, so it feels like a surprise imposition at the end of the trip
I was just thinking about how surprisingly bad the navigation apps are at giving you this information, like an estimate of how long it will take to park and walk from the spot to the actual destination, or letting you easily compare driving, public transit, walking, and other modes.
posted by smelendez at 7:58 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was just thinking about how surprisingly bad the navigation apps are at giving you this information, like an estimate of how long it will take to park and walk from the spot to the actual destination, or letting you easily compare driving, public transit, walking, and other modes.
posted by smelendez at 7:58 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I live in neighborhood where many people don’t have garages and some cry alllll the time about any single loss of a parking spot, and believe their right to park in front of their house trumps all other possible uses of public space. Meanwhile, in 12 years here, I think the furthest we’ve ever had to park away from our house is like 2 blocks max. 95% there is a spot on our block.
posted by haptic_avenger at 9:01 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 9:01 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Glad you don't have four trips back and forth of groceries to get into the house. Or anything heavy to take back and forth. Get you some good exercise I guess.
posted by zengargoyle at 9:11 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 9:11 PM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
"But, we're not doing that, and cars are just getting bigger - like why TF are we driving F-150's in the city?"
Well, we insist on having some of the cheapest gas in the world. (Far less than the actual cost of burning it, if you take into account climate externalities.)
And, with parking minimums, we force housing development to subsidize car storage development. Not the only reason we have a housing shortage and a car glut, but certainly one contributor. People tend to consume more of stuff when you subsidize it!
And now we've built our cities and organized our lives based on the assumption of cheap and abundant gas and parking, so it's tough to unwind the whole mess. But we've got to start somehow.
posted by bfields at 9:18 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, we insist on having some of the cheapest gas in the world. (Far less than the actual cost of burning it, if you take into account climate externalities.)
And, with parking minimums, we force housing development to subsidize car storage development. Not the only reason we have a housing shortage and a car glut, but certainly one contributor. People tend to consume more of stuff when you subsidize it!
And now we've built our cities and organized our lives based on the assumption of cheap and abundant gas and parking, so it's tough to unwind the whole mess. But we've got to start somehow.
posted by bfields at 9:18 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
why TF are we driving F-150's in the city?
Prisoner's Dilemma, essentially.
I mean, it's obvious to me that we're all pretty much in the same boat, so if we're going to run private vehicles at all then we're all better off if everybody chooses the kind that uses up as little space as possible. But this local optimum is unstable. Once the risk of collisions between kei cars and F-150s exists, it's a rare driver who feels safer behind the wheel of the kei car.
Bicycle vs F-150 is an even starker choice.
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Prisoner's Dilemma, essentially.
I mean, it's obvious to me that we're all pretty much in the same boat, so if we're going to run private vehicles at all then we're all better off if everybody chooses the kind that uses up as little space as possible. But this local optimum is unstable. Once the risk of collisions between kei cars and F-150s exists, it's a rare driver who feels safer behind the wheel of the kei car.
Bicycle vs F-150 is an even starker choice.
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Here in Houston a 100-year-old cathedral is being torn down. A parking lot will replace it."
Honestly, if it contributes to the end of organized religion, I'll take that trade any day of the week.
posted by Snowflake at 10:39 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Honestly, if it contributes to the end of organized religion, I'll take that trade any day of the week.
posted by Snowflake at 10:39 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
A Plea for Rethinking America's Parking Addiction - "In Paved Paradise, author Henry Grabar explains how the lives of urban residents and drivers alike could be transformed by smarter parking policies."
posted by kliuless at 12:33 AM on May 4, 2023
posted by kliuless at 12:33 AM on May 4, 2023
I love to walk but frequently transport variously-disabled individuals for whom mass transit is simply not an option. Often they need routine medical care. Lack of parking becomes a serious issue in some cases—there are never adequate designated spaces, and there are always a few folks without permits in the ones provided.
I’d love a world without cars—I prefer to walk or bike to get around—but for a few of my friends and family they are the one thing keeping them connected to the world, and availability of parking when traveling with those individuals is critical.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:29 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’d love a world without cars—I prefer to walk or bike to get around—but for a few of my friends and family they are the one thing keeping them connected to the world, and availability of parking when traveling with those individuals is critical.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:29 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Charging people even more than two bucks an hour to go to work or live at home is probably not the ideal or equitable way to solve this problem.
Neither, of course, is a system that encourages expensive personal transport that makes public transportation options inefficient or undevelopable ("But i can't take the bus!"), or one that gives valuable public space away only to people who spend ten thousand dollars a year on a personal vehicle. (in my city, the average car-owning household has an income twice that of non-car-owning households.)
I love to walk but frequently transport variously-disabled individuals for whom mass transit is simply not an option. Often they need routine medical care.
I have a mobility impairment, too, and one of the things that I've realized is that a lot of urban car-management strategies would vastly benefit people who *need* cars to get around, by freeing up space, eliminating traffic, saving time, etc etc. In addition to making things a lot safer for everyone else, too. That is: the solution for people with greater needs isn't "cars and parking for all!" but rather, allocating those resources to those who need them.
posted by entropone at 4:28 AM on May 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
Neither, of course, is a system that encourages expensive personal transport that makes public transportation options inefficient or undevelopable ("But i can't take the bus!"), or one that gives valuable public space away only to people who spend ten thousand dollars a year on a personal vehicle. (in my city, the average car-owning household has an income twice that of non-car-owning households.)
I love to walk but frequently transport variously-disabled individuals for whom mass transit is simply not an option. Often they need routine medical care.
I have a mobility impairment, too, and one of the things that I've realized is that a lot of urban car-management strategies would vastly benefit people who *need* cars to get around, by freeing up space, eliminating traffic, saving time, etc etc. In addition to making things a lot safer for everyone else, too. That is: the solution for people with greater needs isn't "cars and parking for all!" but rather, allocating those resources to those who need them.
posted by entropone at 4:28 AM on May 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
The article mentions Seaside FL, which is kind of like The White Lotus for southerners. I'm not sure its parking dynamics apply to the typical Gulf beach town, which has empty parking lots except for maybe 50 days a year, when the lots are full and so are the roads, bridges, and shoulders.
Implementing demand pricing and beach tags across the region would turn the place into the Jersey Shore. IDK if that would backfire, you might have people driving further to get to the cheap beaches.
Maybe park-and-ride lots and you get a free golf cart and umbrella on arrival after your ferry trip? Or we just ban vehicles longer than 180 inches? Dunno.
posted by credulous at 5:46 AM on May 4, 2023
Implementing demand pricing and beach tags across the region would turn the place into the Jersey Shore. IDK if that would backfire, you might have people driving further to get to the cheap beaches.
Maybe park-and-ride lots and you get a free golf cart and umbrella on arrival after your ferry trip? Or we just ban vehicles longer than 180 inches? Dunno.
posted by credulous at 5:46 AM on May 4, 2023
One reason in some urban areas that there are so many surface parking lots is property without any "improvements" (aka buildings) is taxed significantly less than ones that are actually useful to the community and the streetscape and the urban environment. If you buy a property with a building and your only plan is to sit on it for now, you're incentivized to raze the building rather than maintain and lease it.
posted by misskaz at 8:24 AM on May 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 8:24 AM on May 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
“We were originally just going to model real cities, but we quickly realized there were way too many parking lots in the real world and that our game was going to be really boring if it was proportional in terms of parking lots.”
Huh. Think of the perspective SimCity could've helped bring ten years ago if they'd decided to keep it real.
posted by gurple at 9:28 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Huh. Think of the perspective SimCity could've helped bring ten years ago if they'd decided to keep it real.
posted by gurple at 9:28 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Think of the perspective SimCity could've helped bring ten years ago if they'd decided to keep it real.
I think the creators of City Skylines wanted to make realistic proportions for the amount of parking needed, but it made the cities too ugly and spread out.
I listened to the Decoder Ring podcast episode in this article. The solution proposed is adding parking meters to keep the most convenient spots for short-term parkers, cutting down on the number of people cruising for parking.
But I wonder if this is just a stopgap for the real solution: investment in convenient, safe mass transit that non-poor people are willing to use.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:44 AM on May 4, 2023
I think the creators of City Skylines wanted to make realistic proportions for the amount of parking needed, but it made the cities too ugly and spread out.
I listened to the Decoder Ring podcast episode in this article. The solution proposed is adding parking meters to keep the most convenient spots for short-term parkers, cutting down on the number of people cruising for parking.
But I wonder if this is just a stopgap for the real solution: investment in convenient, safe mass transit that non-poor people are willing to use.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:44 AM on May 4, 2023
SimCity was first a game, keeping it real wouldn't be fun at all.
posted by Mitheral at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
For a long time I've wondered what I find so alluring and strangely human about Japan urban scenes, and then someone tweeted it: Japan doesn't have on-street parking.
This is not really true. There's on-street parking with parking meters and the like, but not to the degree you'd find in the U.S. But the work around a lot of drivers do is almost as annoying.
Because there's limited space in the cities for parking, it's the norm for cars to simply stop on the street, turn on the hazard lights, and block the road for indefinite periods of time. If you're behind you have to just wait until you can pull to the right (sometimes the oncoming) lane to pass. Almost any kind of delivery truck does this everywhere, all the time in Japanese cities. And don't get me started about how the bike lanes get blocked.
posted by zardoz at 10:38 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is not really true. There's on-street parking with parking meters and the like, but not to the degree you'd find in the U.S. But the work around a lot of drivers do is almost as annoying.
Because there's limited space in the cities for parking, it's the norm for cars to simply stop on the street, turn on the hazard lights, and block the road for indefinite periods of time. If you're behind you have to just wait until you can pull to the right (sometimes the oncoming) lane to pass. Almost any kind of delivery truck does this everywhere, all the time in Japanese cities. And don't get me started about how the bike lanes get blocked.
posted by zardoz at 10:38 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
cant afford a dwelling so sleep in a car
empty parking stalls everywhere, but jealously guarded
hard to sleep at night for fear of blue lites
the harassment will never end
will this be the time they shoot me even deader
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:36 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
empty parking stalls everywhere, but jealously guarded
hard to sleep at night for fear of blue lites
the harassment will never end
will this be the time they shoot me even deader
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:36 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
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True. Owners have no incentive in increasing wear and tear on parking lots, which are expensive to maintain. They also have no incentive in attracting more users than is strictly necessary, and increasing their liability in the process.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:19 AM on May 3, 2023