Pizza ancestor discovered in Pompei fresco
June 27, 2023 2:36 PM Subscribe
"Pompei never ceases to dazzle," Italian culture minister says. [Italian] Looking back 2000 years through discoveries such as these, it's possible to see traces of a life we might recognize today. BBC link [English]
Both pieces point out that it cannot be Neapolitan pizza exactly as we know it because key ingredients were missing: tomatoes and mozzarella. Still amazing to see a depiction of something pizza-like emerge from the ashes near the cradle of modern pizza.
Both pieces point out that it cannot be Neapolitan pizza exactly as we know it because key ingredients were missing: tomatoes and mozzarella. Still amazing to see a depiction of something pizza-like emerge from the ashes near the cradle of modern pizza.
Lol; great job, Italy. You put food on bread, an innovation that had surely never occurred before.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:04 PM on June 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:04 PM on June 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Never ever trust the story of where a food comes from!
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:07 PM on June 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:07 PM on June 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why couldn’t they have mozzarella? Are they referring to the introduction of Buffalo to Europe? I’m pretty sure cheese predates the Romans.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:27 PM on June 27, 2023
posted by leotrotsky at 3:27 PM on June 27, 2023
no mozzarella but i do believe that crust is stuffed
posted by logicpunk at 3:43 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by logicpunk at 3:43 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is clearly nonsense; the concept of preparing food before eating it wasn't developed until 1594 by George Meal
posted by phooky at 3:53 PM on June 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by phooky at 3:53 PM on June 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
"Flatbread with stuff on it" must be a very, very old dish, probably about as old as all the variations of flatbread itself. But still, it is neat to see artwork confirming that people were making something that looks more or less like modern pizza in Pompei.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:02 PM on June 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 4:02 PM on June 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is still so much of Pompeii to excavate, and I think work had been sort of paused there for a long while. They've been back at it and we're going to be seeing new revelations like this for a good while to come, as long as archeologists have their way. Which I support.
posted by hippybear at 4:06 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 4:06 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Those yellow-ish objects in the center top and lower right of the tray look a lot like small pineapples to me.
The gods' punishment was swift and justified.
posted by LionIndex at 4:46 PM on June 27, 2023 [34 favorites]
The gods' punishment was swift and justified.
posted by LionIndex at 4:46 PM on June 27, 2023 [34 favorites]
What's funny to me is that usually, these days, the main job of the entire area around Naples seems to be telling people that what they're making is not pizza...
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 5:08 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 5:08 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Brings to mind the old Frantics comedy routine about a family's reaction to Mt. Vesuvius erupting. [13:30 - 15:45]
posted by fairmettle at 5:46 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fairmettle at 5:46 PM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
> The gods' punishment was swift and justified.
Too soon, LionIndex. Too soon.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:17 PM on June 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Too soon, LionIndex. Too soon.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:17 PM on June 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Bread with stuff on it is good.
Pompeii is pretty crazy. Despite all the death, what an amazing place to visit.
posted by Windopaene at 6:53 PM on June 27, 2023
Pompeii is pretty crazy. Despite all the death, what an amazing place to visit.
posted by Windopaene at 6:53 PM on June 27, 2023
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza
Tldr: 🍞->🌋->🍅->🍕!
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tldr: 🍞->🌋->🍅->🍕!
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not convinced that tomato and mozzarella are required for something to be a pizza.
I am intrigued that Wiki is claiming that Pizza Bianca is a US invention - I've mostly only had it in Italy.
posted by pompomtom at 11:52 PM on June 27, 2023
I am intrigued that Wiki is claiming that Pizza Bianca is a US invention - I've mostly only had it in Italy.
posted by pompomtom at 11:52 PM on June 27, 2023
I think work had been sort of paused there for a long while
Archaeologists, at least the modern sort, seem pretty good with humility. Do we have the resources to protect the stuff we uncover? Will future people be better equipped to study what is still buried? Depite our best efforts are we destroying evidence as we excavate?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:32 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Archaeologists, at least the modern sort, seem pretty good with humility. Do we have the resources to protect the stuff we uncover? Will future people be better equipped to study what is still buried? Depite our best efforts are we destroying evidence as we excavate?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:32 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I am intrigued that Wiki is claiming that Pizza Bianca is a US invention - I've mostly only had it in Italy.
People elsewhere write that New York/New Jersey-style white pizza is a 20th century regional (re?)invention. I'm sure there are places in Italy that have been making something similar since the invention of cheese.
In Rome, pizza bianca refers to sauceless, cheese-free "long, flat, lightly dimpled, flecked-with-coarse salt, crisp-on-the-outside, just barely chewy bread sold by the square ..."
More from SeriousEats on Regional Pizza Styles.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:54 AM on June 28, 2023
People elsewhere write that New York/New Jersey-style white pizza is a 20th century regional (re?)invention. I'm sure there are places in Italy that have been making something similar since the invention of cheese.
In Rome, pizza bianca refers to sauceless, cheese-free "long, flat, lightly dimpled, flecked-with-coarse salt, crisp-on-the-outside, just barely chewy bread sold by the square ..."
More from SeriousEats on Regional Pizza Styles.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:54 AM on June 28, 2023
(Chicago-style pizza is technically a form of Midwestern hot-dish that aspires for greatness.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean Pompei did cease to dazzle one time. That was a pretty significant thing that happened. Like I understand where he’s coming from here but certain events very much did interrupt Pompei’s dazzle.
posted by No-sword at 1:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 1:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is amazing. I love that there is still more to discover about Pompeii. (The whole 'pizza' thing is obviously a PR move for the general populace, who need to be convinced to keep funding these important excavations.)
I was there once (actually, twice since we went two days in a row) and it is something I had always looked forward to. You do feel as if you are walking in a Roman town, with its food vendors on the corners, the houses and their courtyards, the wall paintings so colorful, the house of ill-repute, the central plaza, the open theaters. I found it overwhelming. Such a fascinating insight into how people lived 2000 years ago.
I found the construction of the roads curious enough that I came back home and ordered a copy of The Traffic systems of Pompeii. I even sent some comments to the author, Eric Poehler, who was on Twitter.
I would love to see some actual Roman/Food scholars chime in on these new wall paintings. It does strike me as a 'luxurious' meal as opposed to an everyday meal. And I can't wait to see what else they, literally, dig up.
posted by vacapinta at 2:55 AM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was there once (actually, twice since we went two days in a row) and it is something I had always looked forward to. You do feel as if you are walking in a Roman town, with its food vendors on the corners, the houses and their courtyards, the wall paintings so colorful, the house of ill-repute, the central plaza, the open theaters. I found it overwhelming. Such a fascinating insight into how people lived 2000 years ago.
I found the construction of the roads curious enough that I came back home and ordered a copy of The Traffic systems of Pompeii. I even sent some comments to the author, Eric Poehler, who was on Twitter.
I would love to see some actual Roman/Food scholars chime in on these new wall paintings. It does strike me as a 'luxurious' meal as opposed to an everyday meal. And I can't wait to see what else they, literally, dig up.
posted by vacapinta at 2:55 AM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yet previous research shows pizza was invented in ancient Korea
posted by davemee at 3:46 AM on June 28, 2023
posted by davemee at 3:46 AM on June 28, 2023
Looks closer to a bialy to me. Flatter, maybe, but otherwise....
Never ever trust the story of where a food comes from!
Indeed.
posted by BWA at 5:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Never ever trust the story of where a food comes from!
Indeed.
posted by BWA at 5:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
You know, Pompeii had a heck of a pizza oven
posted by nubs at 6:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 6:39 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pompeii is pretty crazy. Despite all the death, what an amazing place to visit.
We booked a day trip for when we go to Italy in October. I am so excited to see it in person.
posted by briank at 6:50 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
We booked a day trip for when we go to Italy in October. I am so excited to see it in person.
posted by briank at 6:50 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe not pizza but probably dominos. (Gratias, hic ero omni septimana)
posted by Phanx at 9:07 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 9:07 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
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