The police couldn't help so they did it themselves
August 28, 2023 9:22 AM Subscribe
I am thrilled that they smeared this shitbird's name all over the article.
And this is a great line: "4chan, a lawless website that allows users to post anonymously about topics as varied as music and white supremacy." But it should have been "as varied as misogyny, rape, or white supremacy."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:40 AM on August 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
And this is a great line: "4chan, a lawless website that allows users to post anonymously about topics as varied as music and white supremacy." But it should have been "as varied as misogyny, rape, or white supremacy."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:40 AM on August 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
meanwhile strong laws help police protect femme folks from experiencing physical stalking, abuse, and assault
Yes, actually, because without the laws defining crimes as such, the police have no power to act.
That's not to say that institutional misogyny isn't at fault - it absolutely is! But one of those ways it gets manifested is weak laws that prevent violations against women from being treated as such in the legal sense. This is a multifaceted problem and needs to be addressed in multiple directions, given we live in a society where it's been ruled that stalking is protected under the First Amendment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on August 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yes, actually, because without the laws defining crimes as such, the police have no power to act.
That's not to say that institutional misogyny isn't at fault - it absolutely is! But one of those ways it gets manifested is weak laws that prevent violations against women from being treated as such in the legal sense. This is a multifaceted problem and needs to be addressed in multiple directions, given we live in a society where it's been ruled that stalking is protected under the First Amendment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on August 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yes, actually, because without the laws defining crimes as such, the police have no power to act.
When it's one of their own who's being made fun of on Facebook or having their old DUIs revealed in print, the police always seem to find the power to act.
posted by Etrigan at 10:25 AM on August 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
When it's one of their own who's being made fun of on Facebook or having their old DUIs revealed in print, the police always seem to find the power to act.
posted by Etrigan at 10:25 AM on August 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
Intent to harm doesn't seem like quite the right standard, it's true—it doesn't cover the case where someone is just sharing photos for personal profit or recognition from the other creeps on 4chan—but how could it not cover this situation, where there were blackmail attempts and nude photos sent to her family and business associates? How is that not evidence of intent to harm?
posted by smelendez at 10:37 AM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by smelendez at 10:37 AM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
because without the laws defining crimes as such, the police have no power to act
one of the things that struck me when I was reading Chanel Miller's Know My Name was not just that Brock Turner was essentially let go, it was also that Miller's interaction with the law at all levels, policing, administrative, medical reporting, etc, was invasive, dehumanizing, apathetic, and dismissive. there's a reason why only 30% of assaults are reported to law enforcement and none of it has to do with whether or not sexual assault is considered a crime
the assault, meanwhile, was stopped by college students, her story heard by other survivors, her healing done through art, therapy, filial love, and Brock Turner's accountability currently only exists by way of a whisper network. when looking at RAINN's recommendations for dealing with cyberstalking, reporting to the police is a buried bullet point
at some point, it might behoove us to avoid dedicating mountains of resources to reifying laws that still require half a dozen women to submit a 50+ page documented report detailing their cyberstalking each in order to get their local law enforcement to pass the buck to the federal level before a majority-Dem state AAG takes up the case because it just happens to have political capital in the era of #metoo
posted by paimapi at 11:03 AM on August 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
one of the things that struck me when I was reading Chanel Miller's Know My Name was not just that Brock Turner was essentially let go, it was also that Miller's interaction with the law at all levels, policing, administrative, medical reporting, etc, was invasive, dehumanizing, apathetic, and dismissive. there's a reason why only 30% of assaults are reported to law enforcement and none of it has to do with whether or not sexual assault is considered a crime
the assault, meanwhile, was stopped by college students, her story heard by other survivors, her healing done through art, therapy, filial love, and Brock Turner's accountability currently only exists by way of a whisper network. when looking at RAINN's recommendations for dealing with cyberstalking, reporting to the police is a buried bullet point
at some point, it might behoove us to avoid dedicating mountains of resources to reifying laws that still require half a dozen women to submit a 50+ page documented report detailing their cyberstalking each in order to get their local law enforcement to pass the buck to the federal level before a majority-Dem state AAG takes up the case because it just happens to have political capital in the era of #metoo
posted by paimapi at 11:03 AM on August 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
at some point, it might behoove us to avoid dedicating mountains of resources to reifying laws that still require half a dozen women to submit a 50+ page documented report detailing their cyberstalking each in order to get their local law enforcement to pass the buck to the federal level before a majority-Dem state AAG takes up the case because it just happens to have political capital in the era of #metoo
And the point of improving the laws is so that women aren't leaping through hoops to have their harassers prosecuted. Again, this form of institutional misogyny is a multifaceted issue and requires a multifaceted solution - we need clear cyberharassment laws that allow women to file anonymously and don't have intent to harm as an element of the crime; we need to make law enforcement to take these crimes seriously and treat victims as victims; and we need civil libertarians to stop going "but what about free speech?" every time cyberharassment laws are proposed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:13 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
And the point of improving the laws is so that women aren't leaping through hoops to have their harassers prosecuted. Again, this form of institutional misogyny is a multifaceted issue and requires a multifaceted solution - we need clear cyberharassment laws that allow women to file anonymously and don't have intent to harm as an element of the crime; we need to make law enforcement to take these crimes seriously and treat victims as victims; and we need civil libertarians to stop going "but what about free speech?" every time cyberharassment laws are proposed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:13 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
From the comments on the article:
Posting a nude without permission is always intent to harm.
It is theft of image and reputation.
Imagine, you are not allowed to walk around nude in the supermarket, but, with current law, it is legal to post someone else's nude without permission.
It is always intent to harm. Call your lawmakers.
posted by Ickster at 1:12 PM on August 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Posting a nude without permission is always intent to harm.
It is theft of image and reputation.
Imagine, you are not allowed to walk around nude in the supermarket, but, with current law, it is legal to post someone else's nude without permission.
It is always intent to harm. Call your lawmakers.
posted by Ickster at 1:12 PM on August 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
we need civil libertarians to stop going "but what about free speech?" every time cyberharassment laws are proposed.
So 4chan's userbase?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:49 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
So 4chan's userbase?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:49 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem is you need both the law AND enforcement powers to allow redress. A law without teeth is of no use except political fodder. But without law there's only civil lawsuit to contend with.
posted by kschang at 4:24 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 4:24 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a good story but I think the writer underplayed the part where Jeffrey Geiger gave the stalker some of the twins’ pictures while he was dating Madison? Or did I misunderstand??
posted by kat518 at 4:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 4:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
the part where Jeffrey Geiger gave the stalker some of the twins’ pictures while he was dating Madison? Or did I misunderstand??
Yeah, WTF was that? He reached out to the guy and gave him more compromising photos, and then claimed he did it to make the guy trust him for, uh, reasons? What an absolute creep.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:46 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, WTF was that? He reached out to the guy and gave him more compromising photos, and then claimed he did it to make the guy trust him for, uh, reasons? What an absolute creep.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:46 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some officers told Christine she should not have had the photos taken at all. Now well-accustomed to the judgment that came with having her intimate pictures stolen, she says she deployed a quick rebuttal: “Your wife doesn’t send you nudes? That must be so sad for you.”
I hope that stung.
posted by Harald74 at 12:13 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I hope that stung.
posted by Harald74 at 12:13 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, actually, because without the laws defining crimes as such, the police have no power to act.
Ah yes the high crimes of sleeping in one's bed while black or walking through one's neighborhood in a hoodie while black or holding a candy bar while black.
posted by ananci at 4:52 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ah yes the high crimes of sleeping in one's bed while black or walking through one's neighborhood in a hoodie while black or holding a candy bar while black.
posted by ananci at 4:52 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ah yes the high crimes of sleeping in one's bed while black or walking through one's neighborhood in a hoodie while black or holding a candy bar while black.
So, is your argument here that publicly posting intimate images of women without their consent should be legal? Because the point and context of the statement this one is commenting on is that part of the problem that women combating having their privacy and image violated in such a way have is that the laws regarding cyberharassment are weak and vague, giving victims little in the way of recourse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:50 AM on August 29, 2023
So, is your argument here that publicly posting intimate images of women without their consent should be legal? Because the point and context of the statement this one is commenting on is that part of the problem that women combating having their privacy and image violated in such a way have is that the laws regarding cyberharassment are weak and vague, giving victims little in the way of recourse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:50 AM on August 29, 2023
This is turning into a one vs. all-comers thing but that obviously isn't ananci's argument. I think the pushback you're getting is on the idea that weak, vague laws is just as important a problem (based on your framing) as getting the police to care more/do their jobs/be less misogynistic. The dissonance that's been highlighted is on how disinterested the police are in even attempting to help wherever it can be pleaded off (an issue with the laws, jurisdiction, staffing, etc), while when the police are personally involved the law as such is often ignored or interpreted in a way favorable to them (see all the casual violations of the First Amendment that happen every day, for starters). Clearly the law is not as strict a constraint on police action as we wish. I think it is a reasonable position to think that it would be more productive to make change in policing/public safety as an institution, rather than the laws on the books.
posted by coolname at 7:10 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by coolname at 7:10 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
additional to coolname's points, there's so much more community support that exists, needs resourcing, and is infinitely more empathetic and caring than law enforcement and these orgs can, at this time, pursue civil court cases against cyberstalkers and other kinds of abusers
to push changes in the law requires connections at the topmost levels of different state and federal governments. it requires entire non-profit orgs to exist, to be chummy at dinners and meetings, to dump money into the campaigns of certain politicians, and so on, just so we can get toothless laws on the books that still, as noted in this article, required multiple women to come together, prepare extensive documentation, and work at, for years, to be heard (and they finally were and not by their local law enforcement in spite of there being a law on the books)
you take that money and you resource existing non-prof/mutual aid support groups and you wonder how much bigger of an effect and how much more support you'll create for people affected by this issue. it's the same conversation that the queer community had over DOMA and how much money/time/energy was spent on legalizing same sex marriage vs. doing anything to support basic human rights for trans folks
I absolutely understand it's a multi-faceted issue. you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to be. and in being multi-faceted there is an important discussion of strategy and resourcing
posted by paimapi at 8:04 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
to push changes in the law requires connections at the topmost levels of different state and federal governments. it requires entire non-profit orgs to exist, to be chummy at dinners and meetings, to dump money into the campaigns of certain politicians, and so on, just so we can get toothless laws on the books that still, as noted in this article, required multiple women to come together, prepare extensive documentation, and work at, for years, to be heard (and they finally were and not by their local law enforcement in spite of there being a law on the books)
you take that money and you resource existing non-prof/mutual aid support groups and you wonder how much bigger of an effect and how much more support you'll create for people affected by this issue. it's the same conversation that the queer community had over DOMA and how much money/time/energy was spent on legalizing same sex marriage vs. doing anything to support basic human rights for trans folks
I absolutely understand it's a multi-faceted issue. you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to be. and in being multi-faceted there is an important discussion of strategy and resourcing
posted by paimapi at 8:04 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the pushback you're getting is on the idea that weak, vague laws is just as important a problem (based on your framing) as getting the police to care more/do their jobs/be less misogynistic.
And my position is, as stated before:
* For this specific issue - cyberharassment, and in particular the nonconsentual release of intimate images - a good part of the problem is that the laws governing the issue are weak, making it difficult for victims to pursue cases even when the police and prosecutors are supportive. That said, a good part of the problem does not mean it is the only part.
* This is because of institutional/structural misogyny - which is the same force behind the police treating victims of sexual harassment, abuse, and assault like liars and criminals. Again, this is a multifaceted problem, which means the solution needs to be the same as well.
* Part of that institutional/structural misogyny with regards to this specific issue is that the blame is put on the victims for trusting people, which is ridiculous. And that also needs to be part of how we combat this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:15 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
And my position is, as stated before:
* For this specific issue - cyberharassment, and in particular the nonconsentual release of intimate images - a good part of the problem is that the laws governing the issue are weak, making it difficult for victims to pursue cases even when the police and prosecutors are supportive. That said, a good part of the problem does not mean it is the only part.
* This is because of institutional/structural misogyny - which is the same force behind the police treating victims of sexual harassment, abuse, and assault like liars and criminals. Again, this is a multifaceted problem, which means the solution needs to be the same as well.
* Part of that institutional/structural misogyny with regards to this specific issue is that the blame is put on the victims for trusting people, which is ridiculous. And that also needs to be part of how we combat this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:15 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
and these orgs can, at this time, pursue civil court cases against cyberstalkers and other kinds of abusers
Because there are laws that create the torts that allow those civil cases to be pursued. Which is why making sure the laws are solid matters. And still, there are limits to what civil cases can do in these regards as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:28 AM on August 29, 2023
Because there are laws that create the torts that allow those civil cases to be pursued. Which is why making sure the laws are solid matters. And still, there are limits to what civil cases can do in these regards as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:28 AM on August 29, 2023
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right? bc it's definitely just a problem with the law and not policing as an institution that's fundamentally misogynistic at its core
posted by paimapi at 9:30 AM on August 28, 2023 [20 favorites]