Students hated ‘To Kill a Mockingbird.’ Their teachers tried to dump it.
November 4, 2023 12:31 PM Subscribe
But why did they think it necessary to *permanently ban any assigned reading* of it? They actually opined that it would be actively harmful, and thus should never be assigned.
Because that's one of the few ways you're going to counter the cultural inertia that says that this is one of the Great Works that will edify the youth. And given how it made Black students feel, and how it enabled white students to abuse their peers, they were absolutely right to say that teaching it is actively harmful.
As I've talked about in other threads, the cognitive dissonance at the heart of free speech "absolutism" comes down to a (proven to be false) belief that speech cannot harm. And this position is held less because it's actually believed and more because without it, a lot of thought on free speech collapses.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:23 PM on November 4, 2023 [39 favorites]
Because that's one of the few ways you're going to counter the cultural inertia that says that this is one of the Great Works that will edify the youth. And given how it made Black students feel, and how it enabled white students to abuse their peers, they were absolutely right to say that teaching it is actively harmful.
As I've talked about in other threads, the cognitive dissonance at the heart of free speech "absolutism" comes down to a (proven to be false) belief that speech cannot harm. And this position is held less because it's actually believed and more because without it, a lot of thought on free speech collapses.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:23 PM on November 4, 2023 [39 favorites]
the cognitive dissonance at the heart of free speech "absolutism" comes down to a (proven to be false) belief that speech cannot harm
I don't think that's it. I think it's more that 1. attempts to suppress speech will do far more damage than allowing both the speech and criticism of the speech and 2. it only works as long as the people making the decisions are the right people making the right decisions. As soon as they're not, which is bound to happen at some point, allowing suppression of speech will backfire big-time.
posted by alexei at 1:32 PM on November 4, 2023 [64 favorites]
I don't think that's it. I think it's more that 1. attempts to suppress speech will do far more damage than allowing both the speech and criticism of the speech and 2. it only works as long as the people making the decisions are the right people making the right decisions. As soon as they're not, which is bound to happen at some point, allowing suppression of speech will backfire big-time.
posted by alexei at 1:32 PM on November 4, 2023 [64 favorites]
Getting kids to read and actually engage with books is an ever evolving challenge. There are some excellent books that address similar themes to TKAM without the tokenized black characters or white savior trope. It's a great book that had a big impact on me in the 80s when I was a high school student (in an a majority white New England high school), but since there's other books that better engage contemporary students on similar themes, I see no reason to demand this particular book be taught (especially if it's having a negative impact on your students)
(The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas is an obvious choice, but there's six or seven other great contemporary books that would also be fabulous choices)
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
(The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas is an obvious choice, but there's six or seven other great contemporary books that would also be fabulous choices)
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
I read the Seattle Times article about this yesterday. The description of the white student, reading aloud the n-word, and then pausing to smile at the three black students in the class, (when the students had been told NOT to read that word), pretty much made me understand the concerns. That's some fucked up behavior.
OTOH, we do need to find some way of understanding the historical racism that America has counted on for several hundred years. Maybe TKM leads to that understanding? IDK, don't think I have ever read the book.
posted by Windopaene at 2:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
OTOH, we do need to find some way of understanding the historical racism that America has counted on for several hundred years. Maybe TKM leads to that understanding? IDK, don't think I have ever read the book.
posted by Windopaene at 2:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
I read this article yesterday in the WaPo and it has really blown up across the internet. My thoughts at the time were that it's pretty sensationalistic, considering how the district handled it. After hearing all sides they decided no bans, only take it off the required list. A balanced take would have been to have some discussion of the merits alternative titles, since it was clear the teachers involved were still conscious of the important issues explored in TKaM, as well as its problems , and had taken pains to find some books with a broader representation.
Both my kids grew up in Mukilteo SD. Both went to Kamiak. My elder daughter now teaches 2nd grade in the district. I sat on the district curriculum committee for about 6 years as a volunteer a decade ago. None of this surprises me, including the little shit who smiled at his classmates while reading the N word aloud. The student body contains multitudes. The administration and teachers are top-notch, and yes, woke enough to give even moderate republicans nightmares.
Good for any teacher willing to say "okay, you don't like this book, tell me why and what you would read instead" and then fighting for the kids' right to make that call. All required reading lists could have a caveat for acceptable alternate titles to bring the canon into the 21st century, no book is so precious that its status should be unassailable.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Both my kids grew up in Mukilteo SD. Both went to Kamiak. My elder daughter now teaches 2nd grade in the district. I sat on the district curriculum committee for about 6 years as a volunteer a decade ago. None of this surprises me, including the little shit who smiled at his classmates while reading the N word aloud. The student body contains multitudes. The administration and teachers are top-notch, and yes, woke enough to give even moderate republicans nightmares.
Good for any teacher willing to say "okay, you don't like this book, tell me why and what you would read instead" and then fighting for the kids' right to make that call. All required reading lists could have a caveat for acceptable alternate titles to bring the canon into the 21st century, no book is so precious that its status should be unassailable.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Honestly, I hated almost every "classic" I read in school all the way through till the end of college. TKAM wasn't one of the ones I hated--I remember liking it well enough at the time compared to pretty much everything else that was really depressing--but I can absolutely see why it's an issue these days, especially for African-Americans.
I seriously do not get how kids are supposed to learn to love reading from the mandatory books they have to read in school, usually that are a minimum of fifty years old and probably don't feel relatable these days because they didn't feel super relatable when I was in school either. If I hadn't already liked reading, I would have been turned off by all of the classics and hated it, probably.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
I seriously do not get how kids are supposed to learn to love reading from the mandatory books they have to read in school, usually that are a minimum of fifty years old and probably don't feel relatable these days because they didn't feel super relatable when I was in school either. If I hadn't already liked reading, I would have been turned off by all of the classics and hated it, probably.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
I don't see how it would be any easier with something like The Hate U Give. I just checked that one out of curiosity. It's got words that MetaFilter's crack censorship team won't even let me quote and it apparently (I've only had time to skim) touches on themes that school censors would not be happy to have discussed in class.
posted by pracowity at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2023
posted by pracowity at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2023
It might depend for instance, on how well the students in a given group are able to discuss the things that have and have not changed, or changed enough, since the book was written.
I agree that important and complicated concepts should be discussed in schools, but not at the expense of making certain students feel bad. Who wants to talk about a book they hated- or possibly even worse, hear other students that are unaffected discuss it? I enjoyed reading TKAM but it's half a century old. Surely there are other books that can be assigned in order to discuss the same issues.
Also taking books out of a curricula that is "assigned" is not censorship. Presumably they can still be checked out of the school library or used for book reports.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I agree that important and complicated concepts should be discussed in schools, but not at the expense of making certain students feel bad. Who wants to talk about a book they hated- or possibly even worse, hear other students that are unaffected discuss it? I enjoyed reading TKAM but it's half a century old. Surely there are other books that can be assigned in order to discuss the same issues.
Also taking books out of a curricula that is "assigned" is not censorship. Presumably they can still be checked out of the school library or used for book reports.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
That last paragraph in the WaPo article is weirdly clunky. Is it a book reference?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:05 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I confess I have never liked TKAM, but its very status as a revered landmark of anti-racist literature while in fact it is an attempt to extend and reinforce racist ideas, tropes, and institutions for a more tender-minded generation with its soft focused and evasive narration make it an ideal book with which to explore the protean and extremely resilient nature of American racism.
To give a concrete example of just how much of a cover-up TKAM is, I just did a search, and 'lynch', 'lynches', 'lynching' and 'lynchings' simply do not appear anywhere in the book.
posted by jamjam at 3:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
To give a concrete example of just how much of a cover-up TKAM is, I just did a search, and 'lynch', 'lynches', 'lynching' and 'lynchings' simply do not appear anywhere in the book.
posted by jamjam at 3:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's got words that MetaFilter's crack censorship team won't even let me quote
You can quote “I bet they be doing Molly and shit, don't they”. Even “Shiiit. Bitch, next time invite me.” is fine. Was there something else you were particularly wanting to quote?
posted by ambrosen at 3:25 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
You can quote “I bet they be doing Molly and shit, don't they”. Even “Shiiit. Bitch, next time invite me.” is fine. Was there something else you were particularly wanting to quote?
posted by ambrosen at 3:25 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
and it apparently (I've only had time to skim) touches on themes that school censors would not be happy to have discussed in class.
Including the concept that justice is not the same for all people (like TKAM) and a girl's coming of age (like TKAM) and the impact of poverty (like TKAM).
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Including the concept that justice is not the same for all people (like TKAM) and a girl's coming of age (like TKAM) and the impact of poverty (like TKAM).
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I still struggle with “this makes me feel bad” as a reason to not teach a book.
There are Black students who got value out of reading it, so who do we listen to?
posted by girlmightlive at 3:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
There are Black students who got value out of reading it, so who do we listen to?
posted by girlmightlive at 3:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think TKAM has this weird middle place to play in the teaching of literature to high school students.
I'm trying to remember the books I was assigned during my school years. I have zero connection on when these might have been taught but I had at various times assigned to me The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick, Beowulf, Great Expectations, Catcher In The Rye, and other novels I'm forgetting plus a GIANT slew of short stories.
I don't think any of these other works of literature, and I literally cannot think of ANY of these other books or stories being required to do the double or triple lift that TKAM is asked to play. It's asked to be a great example of literature while ALSO being maybe a worthwhile rumination on race and its associated issues. And there are probably other things it's being asked to do that, say, we aren't looking at The Scarlet Letter to draw out similar moral lessons about modern society.
It's a perfectly fine book. I had no idea it was still being taught in schools today. I mean, we're talking about a generation of kids who didn't grow up with WGN and other cable channels feeding the same stable of what would become Nick At Nite syndicated shows over and over like nearly every generation before it. Why are we confining them to books from an era from which they have basically no other exposure to any other form of media as if it is modern?
posted by hippybear at 3:53 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm trying to remember the books I was assigned during my school years. I have zero connection on when these might have been taught but I had at various times assigned to me The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick, Beowulf, Great Expectations, Catcher In The Rye, and other novels I'm forgetting plus a GIANT slew of short stories.
I don't think any of these other works of literature, and I literally cannot think of ANY of these other books or stories being required to do the double or triple lift that TKAM is asked to play. It's asked to be a great example of literature while ALSO being maybe a worthwhile rumination on race and its associated issues. And there are probably other things it's being asked to do that, say, we aren't looking at The Scarlet Letter to draw out similar moral lessons about modern society.
It's a perfectly fine book. I had no idea it was still being taught in schools today. I mean, we're talking about a generation of kids who didn't grow up with WGN and other cable channels feeding the same stable of what would become Nick At Nite syndicated shows over and over like nearly every generation before it. Why are we confining them to books from an era from which they have basically no other exposure to any other form of media as if it is modern?
posted by hippybear at 3:53 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I just did a search, and 'lynch', 'lynches', 'lynching' simply do not appear
I read TKAM a while back, but if I recall correctly lynching was in fact a major theme. The falsely accused character comes close to getting classically lynched more than once, and in the end is basically lynched, in a very modern way: "shot trying to escape" before his appeal. The use of the word may not have been as powerful as the descriptions of it happening.
That brings up the differences between then and now. Today there aren't so many gangs of men trying to pull people out into the street and execute them without a trial (well it does seem to still happen, but more rarely I hope). That's perhaps a difference, and might tempt the reader to say "we are better now." However there are still lots of folks who would defend law enforcement shooting someone who is fleeing, clearly not a threat, regardless of the alternatives. In the book at least this is definitely portrayed as unjust use of force.
posted by TreeRooster at 3:54 PM on November 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I read TKAM a while back, but if I recall correctly lynching was in fact a major theme. The falsely accused character comes close to getting classically lynched more than once, and in the end is basically lynched, in a very modern way: "shot trying to escape" before his appeal. The use of the word may not have been as powerful as the descriptions of it happening.
That brings up the differences between then and now. Today there aren't so many gangs of men trying to pull people out into the street and execute them without a trial (well it does seem to still happen, but more rarely I hope). That's perhaps a difference, and might tempt the reader to say "we are better now." However there are still lots of folks who would defend law enforcement shooting someone who is fleeing, clearly not a threat, regardless of the alternatives. In the book at least this is definitely portrayed as unjust use of force.
posted by TreeRooster at 3:54 PM on November 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Hopefully not outing me, but I work the the nonprofit mentioned in the article that they hired to do trainings of how to teach difficult materials like TKAM. Sharing a link here on the teaching resources: facinghistory.org.
posted by LlamaHat at 4:09 PM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by LlamaHat at 4:09 PM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
I like To Kill A Mockingbird, quite a lot. But to me, the potential problems with it became clear when Go Set A Watchmen was published. Now, Go Set A Watchmen reads like what it is -- an unedited draft of a novel (and there are many issues wrapped up in its publication which is a whole other subject I won't get into.) It's fine not to like Go Set A Watchmen, because it's not a great book.
But... I was very taken aback by how many people reacted to it by saying, "HOW VERY DARE YOU PORTRAY AGING ATTICUS FINCH AS A RACIST WHY HAVE YOU DESTROYED MY CHILDHOOD THIS WAY?!"
And I thought, "Because Atticus Finch was an old white guy? And the book is set in the 1960s? And like TKAM, it's significantly autobiographical, based on the author's father? So that... seems like a pretty realistic thing to happen?"
And that's when I started to wonder just how much of a White Savior narrative is embodied by TKAM, or at least how many people read it that way. Honestly, the only thing that keeps it from tipping over into that entirely is that he doesn't actually win the trial. Which is significant, to be fair. But still.
Anyway, I still think TKAM is a great novel. But I'd be fine with it not being required reading in schools.
posted by kyrademon at 4:11 PM on November 4, 2023 [24 favorites]
But... I was very taken aback by how many people reacted to it by saying, "HOW VERY DARE YOU PORTRAY AGING ATTICUS FINCH AS A RACIST WHY HAVE YOU DESTROYED MY CHILDHOOD THIS WAY?!"
And I thought, "Because Atticus Finch was an old white guy? And the book is set in the 1960s? And like TKAM, it's significantly autobiographical, based on the author's father? So that... seems like a pretty realistic thing to happen?"
And that's when I started to wonder just how much of a White Savior narrative is embodied by TKAM, or at least how many people read it that way. Honestly, the only thing that keeps it from tipping over into that entirely is that he doesn't actually win the trial. Which is significant, to be fair. But still.
Anyway, I still think TKAM is a great novel. But I'd be fine with it not being required reading in schools.
posted by kyrademon at 4:11 PM on November 4, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don't think any of these other works of literature, and I literally cannot think of ANY of these other books or stories being required to do the double or triple lift that TKAM is asked to play. It's asked to be a great example of literature while ALSO being maybe a worthwhile rumination on race and its associated issues.
Huckleberry Finn, another book that requires a lot of care in teaching.
The books I was assigned to read at my Afrocentric middle school would still pose problems along some of these axes, though. E.g., Richard Wright doesn't exactly stint in his use of the n-word or in the horrors inflicted on his black characters. His project is not the same as Harper Lee's project, but some of the superficial aspects they share are exactly those most commonly objected to when we have these conversations.
posted by praemunire at 4:17 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Huckleberry Finn, another book that requires a lot of care in teaching.
The books I was assigned to read at my Afrocentric middle school would still pose problems along some of these axes, though. E.g., Richard Wright doesn't exactly stint in his use of the n-word or in the horrors inflicted on his black characters. His project is not the same as Harper Lee's project, but some of the superficial aspects they share are exactly those most commonly objected to when we have these conversations.
posted by praemunire at 4:17 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Surely there are other books that can be assigned in order to discuss the same issues....I'd be fine with it not being required reading in schools.
Agreed on both. There are so many great alternative books, and requiring this one as an assignment should not be something teachers are forced to do.
That's how the school system ended up deciding the case. The attempt was made to completely forbid assigning the book, but instead the board decided to make that up to the local school and teacher. Seems like a good decision, so a teacher who thinks their students are not the right audience can pick something else!
posted by TreeRooster at 4:21 PM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Agreed on both. There are so many great alternative books, and requiring this one as an assignment should not be something teachers are forced to do.
That's how the school system ended up deciding the case. The attempt was made to completely forbid assigning the book, but instead the board decided to make that up to the local school and teacher. Seems like a good decision, so a teacher who thinks their students are not the right audience can pick something else!
posted by TreeRooster at 4:21 PM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wonder what book will be next on the list.
posted by gottabefunky at 4:30 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 4:30 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest Moby Dick? It's really a novel better read later in life than high school years, and dear god all those chapters about whaling.... It's a great book! But really, in high school, in 2023?
Maybe it's not even being taught anymore. I had thought that TKAM wasn't being taught anymore, but surprise!
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's not even being taught anymore. I had thought that TKAM wasn't being taught anymore, but surprise!
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
That last paragraph in the WaPo article is weirdly clunky. Is it a book reference?
The story being assigned is "Lamb to the Slaughter" by Roald Dahl. Its connection to To Kill A Mockingbird is non existent, other than being written around the same time. The author of the article seemed to be hoping to make a connection where there wasn't one.
posted by dannyboybell at 5:16 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The story being assigned is "Lamb to the Slaughter" by Roald Dahl. Its connection to To Kill A Mockingbird is non existent, other than being written around the same time. The author of the article seemed to be hoping to make a connection where there wasn't one.
posted by dannyboybell at 5:16 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I seriously do not get how kids are supposed to learn to love reading from the mandatory books …
I think the purpose of reading in school is to learn to read critically. Not learn to love reading.
posted by sbutler at 5:17 PM on November 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
I think the purpose of reading in school is to learn to read critically. Not learn to love reading.
posted by sbutler at 5:17 PM on November 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
My son read TKAM during his freshman year (he is now a junior). This year, he is taking AP Literature. Instead of reading Their Eyes Were Watching God (which the teacher had used for years) they read Frankenstein because his teacher was afraid of crossing SF 496.
Honestly, this discussion is classic Metafilter: a competition to point out all the ways that something good isn’t, actually, perfect.
Meanwhile, the fascists are burning it all down.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:21 PM on November 4, 2023 [31 favorites]
Honestly, this discussion is classic Metafilter: a competition to point out all the ways that something good isn’t, actually, perfect.
Meanwhile, the fascists are burning it all down.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:21 PM on November 4, 2023 [31 favorites]
So, you want us to, what, stop discussing the merits and flaws of all books entirely until the problem of fascist book bans in the U.S. is solved?
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 PM on November 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 PM on November 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I read this article as an attempt to downplay the fascist book bans by creating an implied false equivalence between legislative assaults on queer and POC kids, like what's going on in Iowa (and the book bans are very much part of a larger legislative agenda here in Iowa), and attempts to modify curriculum to be more responsive to students' needs and interests, like the situation in Washington.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
we aren't looking at The Scarlet Letter to draw out similar moral lessons about modern society.
Pity if so, because it certainly had a lot of relevance to sexual double standards and slut-shaming that were directly observable in my high school, and sadly still relevant more recently.
posted by eviemath at 5:54 PM on November 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Pity if so, because it certainly had a lot of relevance to sexual double standards and slut-shaming that were directly observable in my high school, and sadly still relevant more recently.
posted by eviemath at 5:54 PM on November 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Those teachers aren’t “ progressive”—they’re ignorant.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:55 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 5:55 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Racism is not a central theme of To Kill a Mockingbird. Rather, it's more about protecting innocence and standing up for honor in the face of a mob. Calling this outdated is stupid. Harper Lee considered honor and good conduct a duty as a Southerner. The book is also very accessible to young readers. I always liked the fact that Dill was modeled after her childhood friend, Truman Capote.
posted by Brian B. at 6:24 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 6:24 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
I tell you what, if there's one celebrity that gets my 15yo students excited, it's Truman Capote. ;)
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:30 PM on November 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:30 PM on November 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
kind of a hot take spiral in here...i probably read tkamb last...15 years ago. here's what i remember being novel and fascinating from my first reading in HS many years earlier - as a sheltered teenaged middle class white suburban kid.
scout's female pov
jem reading to the cancer stricken neighbor while she kicked
feeling stunned that it was some kind of great sacrifice that af represent a black person.
the casual and frequent use of the n word.
in my reading experience at the time, something new and special and unquantifiable about lee's prose style. it still reads as fresh to me.
the atmospherics of the south; having never been.
boo represented as a non-stigmatized, non-threatening mentally challenged person.
the treatment of calpurnia, despite her raising af's children to the cost of her own.
//-------------
i can see why it's problematic to contemporary hs students with the racial climate devolving as we speak.
the failure to control the read-aloud n word instance is such a predictable classroom control failure.
what are other options suggested but not named here in the thread? would they not be equally challenging for POC students? i was also assigned the autobiography of malcolm-x in a midwest public hs in the 80s. that is Serious Shit. i don't think that happens today.
//------------
anyway, there's got to be some approach to exposing privileged white kids to dark american history. and, an approach to a useful social history for marginalized groups through the lense of fiction.
i like the idea of students being able to challenge selections with alternatives.
my 2¢, shrugs.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:40 PM on November 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
scout's female pov
jem reading to the cancer stricken neighbor while she kicked
feeling stunned that it was some kind of great sacrifice that af represent a black person.
the casual and frequent use of the n word.
in my reading experience at the time, something new and special and unquantifiable about lee's prose style. it still reads as fresh to me.
the atmospherics of the south; having never been.
boo represented as a non-stigmatized, non-threatening mentally challenged person.
the treatment of calpurnia, despite her raising af's children to the cost of her own.
//-------------
i can see why it's problematic to contemporary hs students with the racial climate devolving as we speak.
the failure to control the read-aloud n word instance is such a predictable classroom control failure.
what are other options suggested but not named here in the thread? would they not be equally challenging for POC students? i was also assigned the autobiography of malcolm-x in a midwest public hs in the 80s. that is Serious Shit. i don't think that happens today.
//------------
anyway, there's got to be some approach to exposing privileged white kids to dark american history. and, an approach to a useful social history for marginalized groups through the lense of fiction.
i like the idea of students being able to challenge selections with alternatives.
my 2¢, shrugs.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:40 PM on November 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
The problem is that To Kill A Mockingbird IS taught as the “diversity / racism book”, and so we have a book with the following things going on:
* White characters are the central points of view
* Black characters are really like NPCs that can be saved or sacrificed — or they’re there to prove the morality and goodness of white characters
* Women don’t tell the truth about rape.
* As long as you’re not yelling racial slurs you’re probably not racist!
* Don’t kill black people, they’re like harmless birds!
* White savioring.
See also A Passage to India.
We could instead be teaching from books by black authors; we could be teaching from books centering black characters. Should TKAM be banned, no, but there are many better books to assign. But Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass or Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl or Beloved or The Bluest Eye or The Color Purple have actual rape, actual black rage, complex black feelings, and tend not to make white people feel good.
posted by Hypatia at 6:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [77 favorites]
* White characters are the central points of view
* Black characters are really like NPCs that can be saved or sacrificed — or they’re there to prove the morality and goodness of white characters
* Women don’t tell the truth about rape.
* As long as you’re not yelling racial slurs you’re probably not racist!
* Don’t kill black people, they’re like harmless birds!
* White savioring.
See also A Passage to India.
We could instead be teaching from books by black authors; we could be teaching from books centering black characters. Should TKAM be banned, no, but there are many better books to assign. But Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass or Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl or Beloved or The Bluest Eye or The Color Purple have actual rape, actual black rage, complex black feelings, and tend not to make white people feel good.
posted by Hypatia at 6:41 PM on November 4, 2023 [77 favorites]
ty, terrific perspective.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think for me, this quote from a student/recent grad makes the objections/efforts a lot clearer. And I'm glad theyre substituting it with something modern and relevant to the kids' daily lives!
“If you read ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ and think, ‘This is what racism looks like,’ then you look at today and you’ll be like, ‘Great, we fixed it,’” said Deshmukh, who is of South Asian descent. “Which is misleading in a lot of ways.”
I say this aware that I grew up white in a very white small town, read TKM in English class and didn't get much out of it beyond the obvious. You have to already understand the issues it's referencing to make use of the book - and in the white culture we live in, that's a lot more accessible to students from The Hate U Give than TKM.
I had excellent teachers - I'm not knocking them(!!) - but I can't imagine me/classmates/students engaging in a more nuanced discussion of the novel to correct that 'glad that's over' assumption.
OTOH, HUG may not have resulted in better discussions (because age), but it'd have at least let us empathize with the characters and improve our internal understanding of our culture. I'd argue that's the point of both books.
posted by esoteric things at 6:48 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
“If you read ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ and think, ‘This is what racism looks like,’ then you look at today and you’ll be like, ‘Great, we fixed it,’” said Deshmukh, who is of South Asian descent. “Which is misleading in a lot of ways.”
I say this aware that I grew up white in a very white small town, read TKM in English class and didn't get much out of it beyond the obvious. You have to already understand the issues it's referencing to make use of the book - and in the white culture we live in, that's a lot more accessible to students from The Hate U Give than TKM.
I had excellent teachers - I'm not knocking them(!!) - but I can't imagine me/classmates/students engaging in a more nuanced discussion of the novel to correct that 'glad that's over' assumption.
OTOH, HUG may not have resulted in better discussions (because age), but it'd have at least let us empathize with the characters and improve our internal understanding of our culture. I'd argue that's the point of both books.
posted by esoteric things at 6:48 PM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some of the takes in this thread on TKAM are wild, and to me suggest people either never read it or read it a long time ago. I mean, whatever, books are open to different interpretations. I really like the book personally. It's a beautifully written coming of age story. The main takeaways are that growing up is complicated, adults are complex, your father can be both admirable and fallible, and black people, disabled people, and Truman Capote are all people and just as human as you are. It shouldn't take a huge leap of imagination to understand why that last part is less appealing to non-white kids. The extrajudicial murder of Tom Robinson is a critical part of Scout's dawning moral awareness but if you already understand that society doesn't value your life equally it's easy to just take it as pain.
To suggest that wanting to prevent it from being required reading is because of some bad words is to wilfully ignore how the entire structure of the book can perpetuate harm.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:23 PM on November 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
To suggest that wanting to prevent it from being required reading is because of some bad words is to wilfully ignore how the entire structure of the book can perpetuate harm.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:23 PM on November 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
The main takeaways are that growing up is complicated, adults are complex, your father can be both admirable and fallible, and black people, disabled people, and Truman Capote are all people and just as human as you are.
ty
posted by j_curiouser at 7:33 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
ty
posted by j_curiouser at 7:33 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
TKAM is among other things a book by a white person writing largely for white people about growing up white in a racist society.
That doesn’t make a bad book per se, but it’s certainly a questionable one for a largely white-led educational system to teach to a more diverse audience. Ironically, I do think segregated schools and overly white school leadership are big parts of what’s kept it in the canon so long.
posted by smelendez at 7:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
That doesn’t make a bad book per se, but it’s certainly a questionable one for a largely white-led educational system to teach to a more diverse audience. Ironically, I do think segregated schools and overly white school leadership are big parts of what’s kept it in the canon so long.
posted by smelendez at 7:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
Black Like Me was on my grade nine required reading list back in the early 70's. I was highly disinterested in high school, but it was one of the few required books that I found readable and illuminating.
posted by fairmettle at 8:16 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 8:16 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are literally millions of books to choose from. Millions of stories and perspectives that are 'censored' by not teaching them to kids.
I enjoyed TKaM. It's great for white liberal tomboys of a certain time, like the one I happened to grow up in. But if this book feels bad to many, and you could discuss the relevant themes using other novels, why not save TKaM for the seminar that can go into more depth and context, analyze its strengths and limitations, etc, for kids who are taking an advanced elective?
posted by latkes at 9:31 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed TKaM. It's great for white liberal tomboys of a certain time, like the one I happened to grow up in. But if this book feels bad to many, and you could discuss the relevant themes using other novels, why not save TKaM for the seminar that can go into more depth and context, analyze its strengths and limitations, etc, for kids who are taking an advanced elective?
posted by latkes at 9:31 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
why not save TKaM for the seminar that can go into more depth and context, analyze its strengths and limitations, etc, for kids who are taking an advanced elective?
That's more or less what the article states happened. And honestly, I had no idea "required reading" lists were standardized by school districts.
posted by pwnguin at 10:09 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's more or less what the article states happened. And honestly, I had no idea "required reading" lists were standardized by school districts.
posted by pwnguin at 10:09 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Depends on the district and system. In a lot of districts it's left to the individual schools/departments with some "guidance" from the state (see the fact that my mom has had to catalog all of her books with the state of Florida to allow for review/objections).
In one of the districts my wife taught at the books were chosen by a discussion of the English departments across the district to coordinate what was taught at what grade level to ensure some level of continuity. They taught TKaM there every year I paid attention. (I think it's still taught in FL where my mom is as well).
My wife's newest district is more loose. Grade levels will coordinate to reserve books for their classes, but it's not required that they teach any particular work. Sometimes the battles are fierce - like my wife wanted to teach "The Things They Carried" to her non-AP kids to engage the non-readers (war stories work like a charm), but another grade reserved it.
She doesn't teach TKaM currently, but has taught Frederick Douglass on the regular, the Hate U Give and others. She keeps trying a way to get Nella Larsen in (her thesis subject), but hasn't so far.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:49 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
In one of the districts my wife taught at the books were chosen by a discussion of the English departments across the district to coordinate what was taught at what grade level to ensure some level of continuity. They taught TKaM there every year I paid attention. (I think it's still taught in FL where my mom is as well).
My wife's newest district is more loose. Grade levels will coordinate to reserve books for their classes, but it's not required that they teach any particular work. Sometimes the battles are fierce - like my wife wanted to teach "The Things They Carried" to her non-AP kids to engage the non-readers (war stories work like a charm), but another grade reserved it.
She doesn't teach TKaM currently, but has taught Frederick Douglass on the regular, the Hate U Give and others. She keeps trying a way to get Nella Larsen in (her thesis subject), but hasn't so far.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:49 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
We had to read TKAM in my Canadian High school - and I remember it being really white centric novel for supposedly being about racism. It wasn't at all revealing for me - I grew up in a racially mixed neighborhood, and by that age I had already read very good children's novels which depict Jim Crow in a black centric way (Roll of thunder, Hear my cry) that I thought were much better - and I think I had already read Black like me by that age. TKAM felt so... anodyne in comparison.
posted by jb at 1:33 AM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jb at 1:33 AM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't see how it would be any easier with something like The Hate U Give. I just checked that one out of curiosity. It's got words that MetaFilter's crack censorship team won't even let me quote
My son read The Hate U Give in grade 9.
It’s not quite the same but we have a First Nations, Métis, and Inuit curriculum, implemented as one of the 94 calls to action. Part of the mandate for that curriculum is to centre Indigenous voices, including when educating about residential schools. The thing about that curriculum, even though I’m sure there are significant gaps in implementation, is that it is supposed to explicitly address the context and to centre First Nations and Inuit experience and authors. That means working with Indigenous leaders to develop the materials.
Shit still goes down with racist kids and families.
Anyways, the point is…if you want to address these things properly, you can’t just keep teaching the same classic books with a little more context. You have to design a curriculum for that purpose, and you need to involve the communities impacted in that design.
We’re in Scarborough, a racially and culturally diverse area of Toronto.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
My son read The Hate U Give in grade 9.
It’s not quite the same but we have a First Nations, Métis, and Inuit curriculum, implemented as one of the 94 calls to action. Part of the mandate for that curriculum is to centre Indigenous voices, including when educating about residential schools. The thing about that curriculum, even though I’m sure there are significant gaps in implementation, is that it is supposed to explicitly address the context and to centre First Nations and Inuit experience and authors. That means working with Indigenous leaders to develop the materials.
Shit still goes down with racist kids and families.
Anyways, the point is…if you want to address these things properly, you can’t just keep teaching the same classic books with a little more context. You have to design a curriculum for that purpose, and you need to involve the communities impacted in that design.
We’re in Scarborough, a racially and culturally diverse area of Toronto.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:32 AM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
I grew up going to intentionally integrated (a thing that legally no longer exists in the US) public schools in the 80s and 90s in Charlotte, North Carolina. At the time, Charlotte had gone to huge trouble to not only make the student bodies of all schools as close to the demographics of the district as possible through busing, it had also worked to assign teachers to schools so that all students had Black and white teachers across their education.
We read TKAM in 7th grade, which seems about right to me from a reading level and content perspective--the main character is basically a 7th grader telling the story from her point of view. In high school we read books by Black authors that dealt with racism at a more sophisticated level including K____ Boy (apartheid South Africa), Raisin in the Sun, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Black Boy, and Beloved. The latter was in AP Lit, and as an 18 year old voracious reader, the most difficult book I had ever read. It honestly was probably too challenging for most of us.
We were so damn lucky to be in that school system at that time of actual racial reckoning where parents honestly seemed to care that we were getting a good education that didn't shy away from the ugly stuff. A lot was absolutely still wrong, and it was definitely true that Black kids often had to deal with the worst of busing and reassignments, and it was undoubtedly true that Black teachers dealt with asshole white principals, and it really did feel like complaining white parents ran off our awesome Black high school principal (who moved up in district administration). But we were so damn lucky in many ways compared to kids today during this awful racist backlash.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:24 AM on November 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
We read TKAM in 7th grade, which seems about right to me from a reading level and content perspective--the main character is basically a 7th grader telling the story from her point of view. In high school we read books by Black authors that dealt with racism at a more sophisticated level including K____ Boy (apartheid South Africa), Raisin in the Sun, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Black Boy, and Beloved. The latter was in AP Lit, and as an 18 year old voracious reader, the most difficult book I had ever read. It honestly was probably too challenging for most of us.
We were so damn lucky to be in that school system at that time of actual racial reckoning where parents honestly seemed to care that we were getting a good education that didn't shy away from the ugly stuff. A lot was absolutely still wrong, and it was definitely true that Black kids often had to deal with the worst of busing and reassignments, and it was undoubtedly true that Black teachers dealt with asshole white principals, and it really did feel like complaining white parents ran off our awesome Black high school principal (who moved up in district administration). But we were so damn lucky in many ways compared to kids today during this awful racist backlash.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:24 AM on November 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
I don't think that's it. I think it's more that 1. attempts to suppress speech will do far more damage than allowing both the speech and criticism of the speech and 2. it only works as long as the people making the decisions are the right people making the right decisions. As soon as they're not, which is bound to happen at some point, allowing suppression of speech will backfire big-time.
Yes, those are the two big shibboleths of free speech "absolutism", to wit:
* "the answer to bad/hate speech is more/better speech", and
* "we bind their hands by binding ours".
But the thing is that as a practical concern, neither has held up.
For the former, the past few years have shown how the ideal fails, as we see that the practical result is that minorities and the dispossessed are forced to continously argue for their right to exist peacefully (and it's worth noting that this was the heart of the complaints by students in the article in the OP.) In many other fields we acknowledge that treating the arguments of cranks as legitimate is in fact problematic and harmful, and the refusal to view bigotry and hate the same way flows directly from the idea that speech cannot harm (and we see this in the blithe dismissals of the concerns of the students.)
For the latter, I've pointed out in many previous threads that the reality is that binding our hands will never bind theirs - and we see this routinely, as we see the reactionaries happily pursue bans of speech that they find against their principles, not caring about any free speech protections that may have been implemented. In addition, because said reactionary faction often pays lip service to those ideals for reasons famously explained by Sartre, this belief often confuses its holders into thinking the reactionary right holds the same priors as them when they very much do not.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:46 AM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, those are the two big shibboleths of free speech "absolutism", to wit:
* "the answer to bad/hate speech is more/better speech", and
* "we bind their hands by binding ours".
But the thing is that as a practical concern, neither has held up.
For the former, the past few years have shown how the ideal fails, as we see that the practical result is that minorities and the dispossessed are forced to continously argue for their right to exist peacefully (and it's worth noting that this was the heart of the complaints by students in the article in the OP.) In many other fields we acknowledge that treating the arguments of cranks as legitimate is in fact problematic and harmful, and the refusal to view bigotry and hate the same way flows directly from the idea that speech cannot harm (and we see this in the blithe dismissals of the concerns of the students.)
For the latter, I've pointed out in many previous threads that the reality is that binding our hands will never bind theirs - and we see this routinely, as we see the reactionaries happily pursue bans of speech that they find against their principles, not caring about any free speech protections that may have been implemented. In addition, because said reactionary faction often pays lip service to those ideals for reasons famously explained by Sartre, this belief often confuses its holders into thinking the reactionary right holds the same priors as them when they very much do not.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:46 AM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
One thing I wish the article made clearer was how TKaM fit within the curriculum more broadly. Certainly, it would be bad if reading the novel was the only time the students learned about Jim Crow, or anti-Black racism. But it sorta seems like people are upset that the novel is not about what it was never intended to be about? Harper Lee wrote what she knew about, which was white perspectives on racism in a small southern town. The book, as I recall, is unflinching in its portrayal of how whites policed other whites, often violently, to uphold white supremacy. And as others have already pointed out, it's also about gender, class, coming of age, etc. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read TKaM the same year I read Raisin in the Sun and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, though I may very well be blending a couple of years in my mind.
* Women don’t tell the truth about rape.
But white women lying about rape was a common reason Black men got lynched in the Jim Crow south. And as the book explores, this was even true in classes where the woman was looked down upon in society (in this case, class-based reasons). It aptly depicts how white nationalist solidarity was a mechanism to get working class whites to go along with being at the bottom of the class hierarchy amount fellow whites. A good teacher can (and should) teach this part of history to students without implying that this means women lying about rape is a problem today.
* White savioring.
The term seems to have lost some of its original meaning here. It first arose to describe European colonialists/missionaries and then later white NGO workers, who through a sense of hubris based on their own internalized white supremacy, think that they can just show up to a country they know little to nothing about, and "civilize the natives" (in the case of colonists/missionaries) or solve some major problem (NGO workers). And of course they fail, for many reasons, including because they ignore the knowledge of the indigenous population. But in TKaM, Atticus does no such thing - he does have legal expertise and because of racism, the options are him or another white lawyer. And he fails not because of hubris but because the legal system is rigged against Black people. Nor is Atticus a perfect hero - he tries to shelter his kids from the reality of their racist society. It's a messy book, and a good teacher can make use of this mess.
Anyway, the decision made seems good - teachers who feel confident/successful in teaching TKaM can do so, those that do not can choose another book. And good that they provided the trainings that one teacher who supported teaching TKaM had previously advocated for - I can absolutely see how a teacher could do harm teaching this book. But that's true of a lot of so-called "hot topics." Another detail I wish the article had dug into was what was the consequence for the student who said the n-word aloud? What steps, if any, did the teacher take to address the wound that created in the classroom?
posted by coffeecat at 8:33 AM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
* Women don’t tell the truth about rape.
But white women lying about rape was a common reason Black men got lynched in the Jim Crow south. And as the book explores, this was even true in classes where the woman was looked down upon in society (in this case, class-based reasons). It aptly depicts how white nationalist solidarity was a mechanism to get working class whites to go along with being at the bottom of the class hierarchy amount fellow whites. A good teacher can (and should) teach this part of history to students without implying that this means women lying about rape is a problem today.
* White savioring.
The term seems to have lost some of its original meaning here. It first arose to describe European colonialists/missionaries and then later white NGO workers, who through a sense of hubris based on their own internalized white supremacy, think that they can just show up to a country they know little to nothing about, and "civilize the natives" (in the case of colonists/missionaries) or solve some major problem (NGO workers). And of course they fail, for many reasons, including because they ignore the knowledge of the indigenous population. But in TKaM, Atticus does no such thing - he does have legal expertise and because of racism, the options are him or another white lawyer. And he fails not because of hubris but because the legal system is rigged against Black people. Nor is Atticus a perfect hero - he tries to shelter his kids from the reality of their racist society. It's a messy book, and a good teacher can make use of this mess.
Anyway, the decision made seems good - teachers who feel confident/successful in teaching TKaM can do so, those that do not can choose another book. And good that they provided the trainings that one teacher who supported teaching TKaM had previously advocated for - I can absolutely see how a teacher could do harm teaching this book. But that's true of a lot of so-called "hot topics." Another detail I wish the article had dug into was what was the consequence for the student who said the n-word aloud? What steps, if any, did the teacher take to address the wound that created in the classroom?
posted by coffeecat at 8:33 AM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's interesting to see an example of liberal book banning, it's just as aggravating. I don't think I was assigned To Kill a Mockingbird in 9th grade, but I read it anyway. (Maybe my sister's class read it?)
I understand the teachers wanting to not be required to teach a book that they don't think is very relevant, but not allowing others to do so is outrageous.
posted by greatalleycat at 8:52 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I understand the teachers wanting to not be required to teach a book that they don't think is very relevant, but not allowing others to do so is outrageous.
posted by greatalleycat at 8:52 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
The vote didn't go that way, though. It was removed from the requirements but permitted.
posted by Selena777 at 9:12 AM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:12 AM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I should probably be gobsmacked that thoughtful-seeming people are arguing for speech bans, but ever since TFG came down that escalator back in '15, I've lost the ability to be gobsmacked. Qui custodiet? I certainly don't want these four idiot teachers deciding who gets to speak. I don't want Metafilter's admins deciding, either, since we're on the subject.
As far as the curriculum goes, pair TKaM, which is a product of its time but real good at getting across how pervasive the system is and how no one person can fight it, and is also beautifully written, with Beloved, which absolutely gives us the slaves' perspectives, and is also beautifully written and totally accessible to kids that age: my 15yo devoured it. The Hate You Give was frankly terrible: the same kid and I both read it and were like how did this get published? Not the setting or themes, mind you, but the writing itself.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:22 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
As far as the curriculum goes, pair TKaM, which is a product of its time but real good at getting across how pervasive the system is and how no one person can fight it, and is also beautifully written, with Beloved, which absolutely gives us the slaves' perspectives, and is also beautifully written and totally accessible to kids that age: my 15yo devoured it. The Hate You Give was frankly terrible: the same kid and I both read it and were like how did this get published? Not the setting or themes, mind you, but the writing itself.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:22 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
To suggest that wanting to prevent it from being required reading is because of some bad words
You can understand, can't you, that when it comes to bureaucracies implementing political decisions (*), complex critiques and balanced judgments tend to get boiled down to mechanically- or even maliciously-applied bright-line rules? "This book uses the n-word" or "this book writes about black people from the point of view of white people" is absolutely one of those.
(*) Frankly, you can see it in plenty of discussions here on Mefi on tough issues where people genuinely mean well and want to avoid harm but haven't necessarily given the time to think through potential nuance.
posted by praemunire at 11:07 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can understand, can't you, that when it comes to bureaucracies implementing political decisions (*), complex critiques and balanced judgments tend to get boiled down to mechanically- or even maliciously-applied bright-line rules? "This book uses the n-word" or "this book writes about black people from the point of view of white people" is absolutely one of those.
(*) Frankly, you can see it in plenty of discussions here on Mefi on tough issues where people genuinely mean well and want to avoid harm but haven't necessarily given the time to think through potential nuance.
posted by praemunire at 11:07 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not seeing any reasons to be outraged in this story. A group of qualified experts collaborated to share their good-faith concerns and recommendations with their colleagues who thoughtfully considered them to reach a reasonable conclusion. This seems nothing like the kinds of book bans that are being pursued by uninformed amateurs, many of whom have never even read their targeted books, who seek to ban books because they dislike a group of people represented in the book or simply want to prevent people from learning (usually about very important historical events or societal issues).
posted by ElKevbo at 11:12 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 11:12 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Book banning is a hot button for me; TKAM is a pretty great novel, and also possibly a white savior narrative. Banning it is a bad idea. Reviewing curriculum and finding new and better choices is a good idea. Moms4Liberty wants to be active in my town and they're genuinely hateful. Book banning is the wrong approach. It's a power & control move.
I've been canvassing against the bad guys. Don't be like the bad guys.
posted by theora55 at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been canvassing against the bad guys. Don't be like the bad guys.
posted by theora55 at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"We don't require you teach this" is not a banning.
Literally not banned. Literally still available in the school libraries and allowed to be taught by teachers.
Removing something from a mandatory curriculum isn't banning it. I don't know why this seems to be such a nuanced thing to grok when it's pretty straightforward.
"We don't require you teach this" is not a banning.
posted by hippybear at 11:41 AM on November 5, 2023 [30 favorites]
Literally not banned. Literally still available in the school libraries and allowed to be taught by teachers.
Removing something from a mandatory curriculum isn't banning it. I don't know why this seems to be such a nuanced thing to grok when it's pretty straightforward.
"We don't require you teach this" is not a banning.
posted by hippybear at 11:41 AM on November 5, 2023 [30 favorites]
to one of coffeecat's points, I'd like to see the literary side of race discussion integrated into a more holistic curriculum.
whatever the actual selected text, the reading would be significantly complemented by a pre-viewing of eyes on the prize. as a practical matter, it would have to be excerpts or selected episodes; it's like 14 hours of doc. tbqfh, straight outta compton, too. literally watch american government try to criminalize black music.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:42 AM on November 5, 2023
whatever the actual selected text, the reading would be significantly complemented by a pre-viewing of eyes on the prize. as a practical matter, it would have to be excerpts or selected episodes; it's like 14 hours of doc. tbqfh, straight outta compton, too. literally watch american government try to criminalize black music.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:42 AM on November 5, 2023
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings is the best replacement for TKAM in the lower high school grades. (Young female perspective, deals with racism etc.) TKAM is really a 7-8th grade book for reading level, but it now, IME as a former English teacher, should not be assigned reading, primarily because there are far better books available, and this one is almost always used as a This is When We Talk About Racism book. Just like Huckleberry Finn is used to talk about slavery. (Also a mistake, IMO. Huck Finn is a children's book that is being read by high schoolers because they could no longer teach it to younger kids, and the way Twain writes using vernacular etc. is no longer useful.) Neither is the best book to teach about those things, because it's not the 1970s anymore, folks.
No book should be canonized as required reading, and certainly not for decades on end. There is absolutely no good reason to do so, and so many books are either irrelevant or actively inappropriate for today's kids.
posted by RedEmma at 12:57 PM on November 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
No book should be canonized as required reading, and certainly not for decades on end. There is absolutely no good reason to do so, and so many books are either irrelevant or actively inappropriate for today's kids.
posted by RedEmma at 12:57 PM on November 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
I come at this differently RedEmma, also as a former Lit teacher and current writer of curriculum in Western Australia where TKAM has been on reading lists for decades, though is gradually being phased out of classrooms in favour of local texts.
I think it is worth keeping on reading lists but for much older students. Italo Calvino’s writing about reader readiness for the ‘classics’ really resonated with me when I started teaching in the early ‘90s. Books which we foist on to younger readers so that we think we can cover some ‘basics’ belie the value and pleasure of encountering such books with some mental room to critically engage with the text, the context, the production and the reception of writing and reading processes.
Sometimes I would put Calvino’s ideas about reader readiness into a journal writing exercise for older students. I think Scout says late in the novel something like ‘Everybody’s gotta learn, no one’s born knowing’ - and maybe older kids are better equipped to weigh up the text’s presentation of competing moral philosophies [and state prescribed and locally enforced *violence* of these] as they get ready to face the actual reality of trying to be oneself inside the strict locus of control their world imposes (very unevenly) upon them.
The vocabulary and the depiction of racial murder are two reasons for an older reader, but it also has so many opportunities to explore complex ideas about the nature of reading, of genre and the idea of having ‘recommended reading list’ in schools at all:
“… The classics are the books that come down to us bearing upon them the traces of readings previous to ours, and bringing in their wake the traces they themselves have left on the culture or cultures they have passed through…”
posted by honey-barbara at 12:07 AM on November 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it is worth keeping on reading lists but for much older students. Italo Calvino’s writing about reader readiness for the ‘classics’ really resonated with me when I started teaching in the early ‘90s. Books which we foist on to younger readers so that we think we can cover some ‘basics’ belie the value and pleasure of encountering such books with some mental room to critically engage with the text, the context, the production and the reception of writing and reading processes.
Sometimes I would put Calvino’s ideas about reader readiness into a journal writing exercise for older students. I think Scout says late in the novel something like ‘Everybody’s gotta learn, no one’s born knowing’ - and maybe older kids are better equipped to weigh up the text’s presentation of competing moral philosophies [and state prescribed and locally enforced *violence* of these] as they get ready to face the actual reality of trying to be oneself inside the strict locus of control their world imposes (very unevenly) upon them.
The vocabulary and the depiction of racial murder are two reasons for an older reader, but it also has so many opportunities to explore complex ideas about the nature of reading, of genre and the idea of having ‘recommended reading list’ in schools at all:
“… The classics are the books that come down to us bearing upon them the traces of readings previous to ours, and bringing in their wake the traces they themselves have left on the culture or cultures they have passed through…”
posted by honey-barbara at 12:07 AM on November 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
honey-barbara, where can I find that Calvino text? I've been looking for it for ages, but I don't really know what to look for. In Danish it was only published in a newspaper, with a funny titel that is clearly not what it is called in Italian or English, and I have lost that clipping.
I have very mixed feelings about mandated literature in schools. On one hand, I feel everyone should read all the classics (the list of which should be edited every ten years or so). And on the other hand, as a teacher, I always want to meet my students where they are, and unfold the canon from there, so it makes sense for them to read.
Here's an example from an exam question from this year in Denmark: this video, where a very popular artist with an immigrant background interprets a song with lyrics by Hans Christian Andersen from 1850. The video is packed to the rim with visual references, so for some students, decoding and explaining those references could make a very fine essay. A next level could be a comparison between the historical and cultural situations in 1850 and 2007, and the different and similar societal roles of Hans Christian Andersen and Isam B.
And finally, some students might become curious about Andersen, a canonical Danish writer. I put that at last, because it is really hard to read Andersen in Danish today. The language has changed so much that whole sentences can be almost incomprehensible to a 15-year old student, and of course then there are the aspects of his writing that are really hard to read today for social and cultural reasons. (I teach at a university, so I only follow the other levels of teaching out of curiosity, and to have an idea about what my students know when they arrive).
Sorry, that was a long derail to explain how I feel about To Kill A Mocking Bird. I clearly remember reading it, where I was, and how I felt, though I can't say exactly when. Maybe in 1973? I was so confused, but also fascinated by the book. Everything about it was strange and scary, and I also understood it was big-L Literature. Something for adults, not for me, in spite of a main character being a kid like me. It would have been good, back then, to read it in class, rather than in my grandparents' living room. And that was just over a decade after the book was written. People all around me were openly racist, all the time. All of our school books had a colonialist perspective, though we did learn about the civil rights movement. I had several children's books where the moral purpose was to teach us tolerance, but that are impossibly racist today. The class-system in the book was immediately recognizable to me, as was the small-town life. The ambiguity of the story felt unsettling, and was perhaps what I felt was "adult", but it was also something I felt all the time in real life.
But now? I read it again about a decade ago, thinking I could recommend it to my then teenager, but I chose not to. I feel it could be an optional ekstra, like Andersen above, for students who are curious about literature and history, and want to continue in that direction.
This all doesn't mean that I don't feel students should read old or even ancient texts. I feel a lot more people should read the actual bible critically. I just feel some texts aren't really meaningful at the level they are taught at, and maybe it does more harm than good to bring them into class -- I mean, those students making a point of reading out a racial slur, that is so predictable at that age.
It also doesn't mean kids shouldn't read adult literature. There are tons of great books out there, with content and language that can enrich teenagers' lives, some have been mentioned above. Some are being banned.
posted by mumimor at 9:03 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have very mixed feelings about mandated literature in schools. On one hand, I feel everyone should read all the classics (the list of which should be edited every ten years or so). And on the other hand, as a teacher, I always want to meet my students where they are, and unfold the canon from there, so it makes sense for them to read.
Here's an example from an exam question from this year in Denmark: this video, where a very popular artist with an immigrant background interprets a song with lyrics by Hans Christian Andersen from 1850. The video is packed to the rim with visual references, so for some students, decoding and explaining those references could make a very fine essay. A next level could be a comparison between the historical and cultural situations in 1850 and 2007, and the different and similar societal roles of Hans Christian Andersen and Isam B.
And finally, some students might become curious about Andersen, a canonical Danish writer. I put that at last, because it is really hard to read Andersen in Danish today. The language has changed so much that whole sentences can be almost incomprehensible to a 15-year old student, and of course then there are the aspects of his writing that are really hard to read today for social and cultural reasons. (I teach at a university, so I only follow the other levels of teaching out of curiosity, and to have an idea about what my students know when they arrive).
Sorry, that was a long derail to explain how I feel about To Kill A Mocking Bird. I clearly remember reading it, where I was, and how I felt, though I can't say exactly when. Maybe in 1973? I was so confused, but also fascinated by the book. Everything about it was strange and scary, and I also understood it was big-L Literature. Something for adults, not for me, in spite of a main character being a kid like me. It would have been good, back then, to read it in class, rather than in my grandparents' living room. And that was just over a decade after the book was written. People all around me were openly racist, all the time. All of our school books had a colonialist perspective, though we did learn about the civil rights movement. I had several children's books where the moral purpose was to teach us tolerance, but that are impossibly racist today. The class-system in the book was immediately recognizable to me, as was the small-town life. The ambiguity of the story felt unsettling, and was perhaps what I felt was "adult", but it was also something I felt all the time in real life.
But now? I read it again about a decade ago, thinking I could recommend it to my then teenager, but I chose not to. I feel it could be an optional ekstra, like Andersen above, for students who are curious about literature and history, and want to continue in that direction.
This all doesn't mean that I don't feel students should read old or even ancient texts. I feel a lot more people should read the actual bible critically. I just feel some texts aren't really meaningful at the level they are taught at, and maybe it does more harm than good to bring them into class -- I mean, those students making a point of reading out a racial slur, that is so predictable at that age.
It also doesn't mean kids shouldn't read adult literature. There are tons of great books out there, with content and language that can enrich teenagers' lives, some have been mentioned above. Some are being banned.
posted by mumimor at 9:03 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The modern English/literature classroom is such a strange beast and asks a ton of the teachers. There's all the stuff that we remember "read this book, analyze it (now with different flavors of literary theory!)", "write a 5 paragraph essay based on a piece of non-fiction in-class reading" (so much non-fiction these days because it's "useful") and of course everyone's favorite "write a sonnet!" Now there's efforts to make it align with a STEM oriented educational goal, instruction in acceptance and sensitivity about sexuality, gender, race. (I'm trying to think of my old teachers back in late 80's Florida trying to pull any of that off!)
There's a lot of tight rope walking demanded of educators today between calls from the right that "you're trying to indoctrinate our kids" to the fiery absolute purity of kids finding their voices. it's tricky and there's little forgiveness from either side that you fail.
All that aside, there's one other reason to keep TKaM around - the notion of "the one good story". So much of how we're structured seems to say "if you can't deliver repeatedly, you're nothing but a one hit wonder, a failure" TKaM is the ultimate example of sometimes you have one story to tell, one piece of greatness and that's nothing to scoff at.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of tight rope walking demanded of educators today between calls from the right that "you're trying to indoctrinate our kids" to the fiery absolute purity of kids finding their voices. it's tricky and there's little forgiveness from either side that you fail.
All that aside, there's one other reason to keep TKaM around - the notion of "the one good story". So much of how we're structured seems to say "if you can't deliver repeatedly, you're nothing but a one hit wonder, a failure" TKaM is the ultimate example of sometimes you have one story to tell, one piece of greatness and that's nothing to scoff at.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
"We don't require you teach this" is not a banning.
True, but that was the final decision of the Instructional Materials Committee. The four teacher were indeed seeking to ban the other teachers in the school from teaching the book. Yay for committees, I guess.
posted by Jess the Mess at 9:37 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
True, but that was the final decision of the Instructional Materials Committee. The four teacher were indeed seeking to ban the other teachers in the school from teaching the book. Yay for committees, I guess.
posted by Jess the Mess at 9:37 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
One possible impact of it not being required, it may make it harder to teach if the school doesn't have classroom sets available. This is why my wife hasn't been able to teach some of the things she's wanted to. I imagine we're a long way from not having classroom sets of TKaM available, but that does factor in for any work appearing in an instructional space.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:45 AM on November 6, 2023
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:45 AM on November 6, 2023
Required reading lists are not a universal policy of WA schools. But sure, the dollars you're going to spend on books for classrooms are a zero sum game. There are other books with merit and related subject matter, a healthy number of them have been discussed in this very thread.
posted by StarkRoads at 5:13 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by StarkRoads at 5:13 PM on November 6, 2023
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But why did they think it necessary to *permanently ban any assigned reading* of it? They actually opined that it would be actively harmful, and thus should never be assigned. I think that individual principals and teachers should make that decision for their school, or their classroom. It might depend for instance, on how well the students in a given group are able to discuss the things that have and have not changed, or changed enough, since the book was written.
posted by TreeRooster at 1:10 PM on November 4, 2023 [16 favorites]