The 50 Worst Decisions in the Past 50 Years of American Politics
January 30, 2024 3:14 PM Subscribe
The 50 Worst Decisions in the Past 50 Years of American Politics "...when politicians make dumb decisions, the results are quite a bit more serious. If the political ruling class had just a little more sense, we might live in a world where Al Gore was president, Sarah Palin never became a national figure, and Donald Trump remained nothing more than a crooked real estate developer and reality-show host."
49 Rod Blagojevich Can’t Keep His Stupid Mouth Shut
48 Ted Cruz Goes on Vacation to Cancun During a State of Emergency in Texas
47 The New York Republican Party Makes No Effort to Vet George Santos Before 2022 Nomination
46 John Edwards Has an Affair With a Campaign Staffer While His Wife is Dying of Cancer
45 Michael Dukakis Calmly Reacts to Hypothetical Question About His Wife Being Raped
44 Mark Sanford “Hikes the Appalachian Trail”
43 Clint Eastwood Is Given the Stage at the 2012 RNC
42 Dr. Oz Films a Trip to the Grocery Store
41 Ted Kennedy Has No Answer When Asked Why He’s Running For President in 1980
40 Dan Quayle Sets Up Lloyd Bentsen For the Mother of All Zingers
39 Herschel Walker Runs for the U.S. Senate
38 Todd Akin Has Some Thoughts About “Legitimate Rape”
37 Chris Christie Decides Against Running in 2012
36 Joe Biden Launches 2008 Presidential Campaign by Calling Barack Obama “Clean” and “Articulate”
35 Gerald Ford Fails to Brush Up on Basic Geography Before Presidential Debate
34 Jimmy Carter Follows Up His Infamous ‘Malaise’ Speech by Inexplicably Firing His Cabinet
33 George H.W. Bush Pledges ‘Read My Lips: No New Taxes’
32 Barack Obama Says That Midwesterners “Cling to Guns or Religion”
31 Al Gore Doesn’t Let Bill Clinton Campaign For Him
30 Biden Totally Mucks Up the Anita Hill Hearings
29 Rick Perry Doesn’t Do His Homework Before a Debate
28 Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
27 Senator Bob Packwood Keeps a Diary Logging Sexual Assaults, Political Bribes
26 Rudy Giuliani Shreds Every Remaining Tiny Bit of Credibility He Has by Going All In on Trump
25 Donald Trump Tells Supporters Not to Vote By Mail
24 The Butterfly Ballot Is Created in Florida in 2000
23 Elliot Spitzer Brings a Sex Worker Across State Lines
22 Trump Refuses to Lay off John McCain, Costing Him Obamacare Repeal
21 Ford Pardons Richard Nixon
20 Trent Lott Says America Would Be Better Off if Segregationist Strom Thurmond Won in 1948
19 Michael Bloomberg Burns a Billion Dollars on His 2020 Primary Run and Only Wins in American Samoa
18 Ronald Reagan Says His “Heart and Best Intentions” Tell Him Iran Contra Didn’t Happen
17 Anthony Weiner Reveals Himself to Be a Monster By Sexting With 15-Year-Old Girl
16 James Comey Reopens The Hillary Clinton Email Investigation Eleven Days Before the 2016 Election
15 George W. Bush Flies Over Katrina, Tells His FEMA Director He’s Doing a “Heckuva Job”
14 Ruth Bader Ginsburg Refuses to Retire While Obama Is President
13 Dukakis Poses in a Tank
12 W. Declares “Mission Accomplished”
11 John McCain Picks Sarah Palin as His Running Mate
10 Bill Clinton Declares “I Did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Woman, Miss Lewinsky”
9 Congressional Republicans Overreach by Impeaching Bill Clinton, Boosting His Popularity
8 Trump Tells America to Fight Covid-19 by Drinking Bleach
7 Gary Hart Dares Reporters to Look Into His Personal Life
6 Mitt Romney Unloads on 47% of the Country: ‘My Job Is Not To Worry About These People’
5 Hillary Clinton Decides Not to Campaign in Wisconsin in 2016
4 Swing-State Liberals Vote For Ralph Nader Over Al Gore, Inadvertently Electing George W. Bush
3 Mitch McConnell Makes No Effort to Bar Trump From Office After January 6
2 Obama Roasts Trump at the White House Correspondents Dinner
1 Richard Nixon Maintains Detailed Recordings of His White House Criminal Conspiracies
Obviously a list like this has to come with some major caveats. We focused strictly on political blunders, not policy mistakes. That means we aren’t talking about bad legislation like the Defense of Marriage Act or the 1994 crime bill, ill-advised domestic initiatives like the War on Drugs, or foreign-policy fiascos like the invasion of Iraq. We’re instead cataloging stupid machinations, lies, triangulations, acts of hubris, campaign screwups, PR debacles, and epic personal failings.50 Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley Rip Each Other Apart But Won’t Attack Trump in Bizarre Race for Second in the 2024 GOP Primary
When ranking our selections, we tried to balance out the sheer stupidity of the decision with the impact it had on the country. Obscure figures like Todd Akin and Rod Blagojevich made the list for saying catastrophically dumb things that shredded their reputations and careers forever, but we didn’t rank them very high because the impact of their stupidity wasn’t that widespread. The top spots were saved for monumentally moronic decisions that changed the course of history, and truly defined our times
49 Rod Blagojevich Can’t Keep His Stupid Mouth Shut
48 Ted Cruz Goes on Vacation to Cancun During a State of Emergency in Texas
47 The New York Republican Party Makes No Effort to Vet George Santos Before 2022 Nomination
46 John Edwards Has an Affair With a Campaign Staffer While His Wife is Dying of Cancer
45 Michael Dukakis Calmly Reacts to Hypothetical Question About His Wife Being Raped
44 Mark Sanford “Hikes the Appalachian Trail”
43 Clint Eastwood Is Given the Stage at the 2012 RNC
42 Dr. Oz Films a Trip to the Grocery Store
41 Ted Kennedy Has No Answer When Asked Why He’s Running For President in 1980
40 Dan Quayle Sets Up Lloyd Bentsen For the Mother of All Zingers
39 Herschel Walker Runs for the U.S. Senate
38 Todd Akin Has Some Thoughts About “Legitimate Rape”
37 Chris Christie Decides Against Running in 2012
36 Joe Biden Launches 2008 Presidential Campaign by Calling Barack Obama “Clean” and “Articulate”
35 Gerald Ford Fails to Brush Up on Basic Geography Before Presidential Debate
34 Jimmy Carter Follows Up His Infamous ‘Malaise’ Speech by Inexplicably Firing His Cabinet
33 George H.W. Bush Pledges ‘Read My Lips: No New Taxes’
32 Barack Obama Says That Midwesterners “Cling to Guns or Religion”
31 Al Gore Doesn’t Let Bill Clinton Campaign For Him
30 Biden Totally Mucks Up the Anita Hill Hearings
29 Rick Perry Doesn’t Do His Homework Before a Debate
28 Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
27 Senator Bob Packwood Keeps a Diary Logging Sexual Assaults, Political Bribes
26 Rudy Giuliani Shreds Every Remaining Tiny Bit of Credibility He Has by Going All In on Trump
25 Donald Trump Tells Supporters Not to Vote By Mail
24 The Butterfly Ballot Is Created in Florida in 2000
23 Elliot Spitzer Brings a Sex Worker Across State Lines
22 Trump Refuses to Lay off John McCain, Costing Him Obamacare Repeal
21 Ford Pardons Richard Nixon
20 Trent Lott Says America Would Be Better Off if Segregationist Strom Thurmond Won in 1948
19 Michael Bloomberg Burns a Billion Dollars on His 2020 Primary Run and Only Wins in American Samoa
18 Ronald Reagan Says His “Heart and Best Intentions” Tell Him Iran Contra Didn’t Happen
17 Anthony Weiner Reveals Himself to Be a Monster By Sexting With 15-Year-Old Girl
16 James Comey Reopens The Hillary Clinton Email Investigation Eleven Days Before the 2016 Election
15 George W. Bush Flies Over Katrina, Tells His FEMA Director He’s Doing a “Heckuva Job”
14 Ruth Bader Ginsburg Refuses to Retire While Obama Is President
13 Dukakis Poses in a Tank
12 W. Declares “Mission Accomplished”
11 John McCain Picks Sarah Palin as His Running Mate
10 Bill Clinton Declares “I Did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Woman, Miss Lewinsky”
9 Congressional Republicans Overreach by Impeaching Bill Clinton, Boosting His Popularity
8 Trump Tells America to Fight Covid-19 by Drinking Bleach
7 Gary Hart Dares Reporters to Look Into His Personal Life
6 Mitt Romney Unloads on 47% of the Country: ‘My Job Is Not To Worry About These People’
5 Hillary Clinton Decides Not to Campaign in Wisconsin in 2016
4 Swing-State Liberals Vote For Ralph Nader Over Al Gore, Inadvertently Electing George W. Bush
3 Mitch McConnell Makes No Effort to Bar Trump From Office After January 6
2 Obama Roasts Trump at the White House Correspondents Dinner
1 Richard Nixon Maintains Detailed Recordings of His White House Criminal Conspiracies
The top spots were saved for monumentally moronic decisions that changed the course of history, and truly defined our times
I dunno, some of these are pretty debatable, in that they may have created a lot of heat but didn't have much substantive effect on policy or the politician's career.
In 1987 Reagan said his "heart and best intentions" tell him Iran-Contra didn't happen, but his VP went on to win the presidency, and Reagan's own public image improved substantially through the early 90s. His approval then went way up (and has basically stayed there), but a lot of that was likely due to sympathy over his Alzheimer's diagnosis.
W. declared “Mission Accomplished” in 2003, then went on to re-election in 2004, improving both his electoral and popular vote shares.
These were definitely not good moves, even by the standards of the politicians in question, but I don't know that I'd put them at the top of the list simply because, in the end, it didn't really matter.
posted by jedicus at 3:26 PM on January 30 [14 favorites]
I dunno, some of these are pretty debatable, in that they may have created a lot of heat but didn't have much substantive effect on policy or the politician's career.
In 1987 Reagan said his "heart and best intentions" tell him Iran-Contra didn't happen, but his VP went on to win the presidency, and Reagan's own public image improved substantially through the early 90s. His approval then went way up (and has basically stayed there), but a lot of that was likely due to sympathy over his Alzheimer's diagnosis.
W. declared “Mission Accomplished” in 2003, then went on to re-election in 2004, improving both his electoral and popular vote shares.
These were definitely not good moves, even by the standards of the politicians in question, but I don't know that I'd put them at the top of the list simply because, in the end, it didn't really matter.
posted by jedicus at 3:26 PM on January 30 [14 favorites]
> Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley Rip Each Other Apart But Won’t Attack Trump in Bizarre Race for Second in the 2024 GOP Primary
This is only a mistake if you think they're actually trying to become President instead of trying to become Vice President. It's long been obvious who the 2024 Republican candidate is going to be, and pissing him off his no way to get a position in his administration (and maybe POTUS if he croaks in office).
Maybe I'm cynical, but a lot of these "worst decisions" resulted in temporary embarrassment rather than material loss of power. Trump is a clown who told people to inject bleach. But that didn't stop him from becoming President and it hasn't stopped him from becoming the nominee...
...and it won't stop him from becoming our next President, either.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:26 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
This is only a mistake if you think they're actually trying to become President instead of trying to become Vice President. It's long been obvious who the 2024 Republican candidate is going to be, and pissing him off his no way to get a position in his administration (and maybe POTUS if he croaks in office).
Maybe I'm cynical, but a lot of these "worst decisions" resulted in temporary embarrassment rather than material loss of power. Trump is a clown who told people to inject bleach. But that didn't stop him from becoming President and it hasn't stopped him from becoming the nominee...
...and it won't stop him from becoming our next President, either.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:26 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
Swing-State Liberals Vote For Ralph Nader Over Al Gore, Inadvertently Electing George W. Bush
I just cannot stop calling bullshit on this. If you want to win votes, convince people you're the best candidate. It has been 20+ years of the democratic party insisting that all they have to do it put up someone who's not as bad as the republican candidate instead of running someone people actually love (Obama maybe excepted.)
And don't even get me started on the Supreme Court just willy-nilly making decisions like they did. That was the most activist judges act of my lifetime.
posted by nushustu at 3:30 PM on January 30 [32 favorites]
I just cannot stop calling bullshit on this. If you want to win votes, convince people you're the best candidate. It has been 20+ years of the democratic party insisting that all they have to do it put up someone who's not as bad as the republican candidate instead of running someone people actually love (Obama maybe excepted.)
And don't even get me started on the Supreme Court just willy-nilly making decisions like they did. That was the most activist judges act of my lifetime.
posted by nushustu at 3:30 PM on January 30 [32 favorites]
I guess McGovern selecting Eagleton as his running mate didn't quite make it in under the 50-year limit. McGovern still wouldn't have beaten Nixon, but this made him lose by a landslide.
posted by pracowity at 3:34 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 3:34 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Oh wow we were just having a thread and/or derail about lazy and convenient narratives.
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
25 Donald Trump Tells Supporters Not to Vote By Mail
The RNC is doing the exact opposite this year, urging people, especially old people, to vote early, by mail or by absentee ballot so as to bank their votes and spare having to stand for hours in line vote in person because of standard Republican party voter suppression techniques like picture voter ID, extreme racial gerrymandering, fewer inner city ballot boxes and polling stations and so on and so on...
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
The RNC is doing the exact opposite this year, urging people, especially old people, to vote early, by mail or by absentee ballot so as to bank their votes and spare having to stand for hours in line vote in person because of standard Republican party voter suppression techniques like picture voter ID, extreme racial gerrymandering, fewer inner city ballot boxes and polling stations and so on and so on...
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
> instead of running someone people actually love
be careful what you wish for
As for "bullshit", I think we can find 7,211 of the 22,198 Nader votes in NH who wish they had their vote back, same thing for 537 of the 97,488 Nader voters in FL that year.
posted by torokunai at 3:38 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
be careful what you wish for
As for "bullshit", I think we can find 7,211 of the 22,198 Nader votes in NH who wish they had their vote back, same thing for 537 of the 97,488 Nader voters in FL that year.
posted by torokunai at 3:38 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
in that same election, tens of millions didn't bother to vote at all, but no one ever blames them for anything
posted by pyramid termite at 3:41 PM on January 30 [23 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:41 PM on January 30 [23 favorites]
It is ALWAYS turnout vs suppression, and then some narrative of utter bullshit to avoid discussing that.
posted by Artw at 3:43 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:43 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
blame, responsibility; tomato, tomahto
posted by torokunai at 3:44 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
posted by torokunai at 3:44 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
It's bullshit that the blame falls on the voters, as if you're stealing votes from the dems when you vote for a third party. No. You're not, you're just not voting for them. They aren't owed those votes, just because they're dems.
And yes, pyramid termite, so many people don't vote. I could be one of them, because I'm one of those cats in a state that doesn't really count; it's going to go the way it goes either way. If your system continues to say "the actual numbers don't matter, because this system is rigged for a small number of places" then I'm not sure how people can be upset when they decide not to bother.
posted by nushustu at 3:45 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
And yes, pyramid termite, so many people don't vote. I could be one of them, because I'm one of those cats in a state that doesn't really count; it's going to go the way it goes either way. If your system continues to say "the actual numbers don't matter, because this system is rigged for a small number of places" then I'm not sure how people can be upset when they decide not to bother.
posted by nushustu at 3:45 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
So, we're gonna relitigate the last 50 years now? Who posted this? :p
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:48 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:48 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
Ford pardoning Nixon ought to be far higher. In retrospect, it should be first on the list, as we're discovering now it's been a world-historical error to give American political leaders the notion that they'll be exempted from legal consequences if there's a political basis for pardoning them.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:51 PM on January 30 [57 favorites]
It’s easy to argue that losing the presidency was a pretty fitting punishment for Watergate. Throwing Nixon into a prison cell on top of that wouldn’t have accomplished muchWhat it would have accomplished is established as a fact that political leaders are not special people, above the law (which, for those paying attention, is the issue of the day). Plenty of countries send their former leaders to prison for the crimes they did in office, pour encourager les autres, or however you say that in Korean. It's good! It's desirable!
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:51 PM on January 30 [57 favorites]
Saying that Obama is to blame for Trump running for President is some epic level victim blaming. Trump was bullying him with the birtherism stuff, and Obama was well within his rights to fire back. Sure, Trump may have chosen to run after that, but he also toyed with the idea of running for President before. I think he would've run anyway, and at the end, Obama's roasting did not galvanize the grassroots support for MAGA that buoyed Trump to the nomination and then the Presidency. That was Fox News race baiting coming home to roost.
posted by bl1nk at 3:53 PM on January 30 [55 favorites]
posted by bl1nk at 3:53 PM on January 30 [55 favorites]
Ctrl-F "picking a fight with Taylor Swift for no good reason"
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posted by bbuda at 3:58 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
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posted by bbuda at 3:58 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
5 a hyper rare example of Clinton’s part in Clinton not getting elected actually being acknowledged. Between that shit and 14 you could set fire to half of metafilter.
posted by Artw at 4:00 PM on January 30 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:00 PM on January 30 [9 favorites]
48 Ted Cruz Goes on Vacation to Cancun During a State of Emergency in Texas
I think they mean: Cruz left Texas during a massive freeze, the disaster we handle worst, magnified by the power system being deliberately isolated from the nation, causing many people to lose power for days. Several hundred people died.
posted by Jacen at 4:00 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
I think they mean: Cruz left Texas during a massive freeze, the disaster we handle worst, magnified by the power system being deliberately isolated from the nation, causing many people to lose power for days. Several hundred people died.
posted by Jacen at 4:00 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
> It's bullshit that the blame falls on the voters, as if you're stealing votes from the dems when you vote for a third party. No. You're not, you're just not voting for them. They aren't owed those votes, just because they're dems.
To not vote strategically is naive. A vote for a third party is usually effectively the same as voting for the party you agree with least. To vote in a way that harms your interests is like eating dog shit because you believe it’ll teach that rum raisin ice cream a lesson about not being your favorite flavor.
If this situation upsets you, please support instant-runoff voting, a system specifically designed to let you rank your choices that’s already being used in several states.
Although I also believe that for some people it’s a weird sneer to think the Democratic Party sucks and to vote against them. Voting Green or whatever just gives them cover to not actually vote Republican…
posted by chasing at 4:19 PM on January 30 [20 favorites]
To not vote strategically is naive. A vote for a third party is usually effectively the same as voting for the party you agree with least. To vote in a way that harms your interests is like eating dog shit because you believe it’ll teach that rum raisin ice cream a lesson about not being your favorite flavor.
If this situation upsets you, please support instant-runoff voting, a system specifically designed to let you rank your choices that’s already being used in several states.
Although I also believe that for some people it’s a weird sneer to think the Democratic Party sucks and to vote against them. Voting Green or whatever just gives them cover to not actually vote Republican…
posted by chasing at 4:19 PM on January 30 [20 favorites]
The first 40 of these should really be ridiculous crap Trump did when he was in office. You could round out the bottom 10 with crappy decisions by W, Nixon, Reagan and that lot. Every morning before breakfast, Trump did five things shittier than Jimmy Carter ever did in his entire life.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:21 PM on January 30 [41 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:21 PM on January 30 [41 favorites]
Thing is all the stupidest shit by the most awful people never hurts them at all, versus if you are moderately well intentioned “eat a sandwich wrong” is a political death sentence.
posted by Artw at 4:23 PM on January 30 [22 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:23 PM on January 30 [22 favorites]
What about that time Obama wore a tan suit? A wound that will never heal.
posted by chasing at 4:23 PM on January 30 [29 favorites]
posted by chasing at 4:23 PM on January 30 [29 favorites]
What no Stockdale "Who am I? Why am I here?" c'mon
posted by pepcorn at 4:25 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by pepcorn at 4:25 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I guess McGovern selecting Eagleton as his running mate didn't quite make it in under the 50-year limit.
But they did manage to work in Nixon’s tapes, which were mostly more than 50 years ago.
posted by TedW at 4:40 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
But they did manage to work in Nixon’s tapes, which were mostly more than 50 years ago.
posted by TedW at 4:40 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
I feel like this is the most appropriate-for-MetaFilter post there's been in some time (and fully expect another few hundred comments when I look at it again tomorrow morning) since it combines a listicle with US politics.
posted by May Kasahara at 4:44 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
posted by May Kasahara at 4:44 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
make it moar mefi
WHY IS THE CAT-DECLAWING CANDIDATE OF '97, KITTY McCHOPFEET NOT INCLUDED
WHAT DOES BIG SCISSOR NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW!?!!??!!?!?!?
posted by lalochezia at 4:52 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
WHY IS THE CAT-DECLAWING CANDIDATE OF '97, KITTY McCHOPFEET NOT INCLUDED
WHAT DOES BIG SCISSOR NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW!?!!??!!?!?!?
posted by lalochezia at 4:52 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Dukakis Poses in a Tank
The pictures of this are never not funny
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:56 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
The pictures of this are never not funny
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:56 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I'm Canadian so my vote doesn't really count here. But the one decision I suppose I can relate to best is:
Swing-State Liberals Vote For Ralph Nader Over Al Gore, Inadvertently Electing George W. Bush
relatable because it illustrates what, for me, is the most common and yet easily avoidable bad political decision. Which is when a voter (could be you, could be me) doesn't vote for whoever they think has the best chance of beating who they fear the most.
posted by philip-random at 5:05 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
Swing-State Liberals Vote For Ralph Nader Over Al Gore, Inadvertently Electing George W. Bush
relatable because it illustrates what, for me, is the most common and yet easily avoidable bad political decision. Which is when a voter (could be you, could be me) doesn't vote for whoever they think has the best chance of beating who they fear the most.
posted by philip-random at 5:05 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I know this may fall under the “policy blunders” purview, but blaming a tiny handful of swing state third party voters rather than the Supreme Court for the GWB presidency is hella victim blaming.
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:28 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:28 PM on January 30 [15 favorites]
This list is confusing because it is a mix of things that weren’t really mistakes, but maybe had a impact on politics (e.g., Obama roasting Trump), things that were mistakes in the superficial game of politics, like Dukakis in the tank, things that were incredibly dumb, but had no impact on politics (Trump suggesting bleach drinking), and a handful of genuine political mistakes that had big ramifications, like pardoning Nixon. Someone could probably come up with a better list, but I suppose this highlights how much things that absolutely shouldn’t matter somehow do end up mattering. What a world we live in!
posted by snofoam at 5:32 PM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 5:32 PM on January 30 [16 favorites]
recency bias
posted by j_curiouser at 5:32 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 5:32 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
>but blaming a tiny handful of swing state third party voters rather than the Supreme Court for the GWB presidency is hella victim blaming
Technically, it's unclear if the FL recount would have found the 537 votes necessary to change the election if it had been given enough time to complete the recount (and managed in a sincere manner to begin with).
The takeaway from the two close 2000 elections is to be very careful and considered with one's vote when the outcome could be this close, lest the outcome be not what you would have preferred.
Same thing could be said for the 1992 and 1996 Perot voters, but I won't since I'm happy these tens of millions of voters were that stupid.
posted by torokunai at 5:40 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Technically, it's unclear if the FL recount would have found the 537 votes necessary to change the election if it had been given enough time to complete the recount (and managed in a sincere manner to begin with).
The takeaway from the two close 2000 elections is to be very careful and considered with one's vote when the outcome could be this close, lest the outcome be not what you would have preferred.
Same thing could be said for the 1992 and 1996 Perot voters, but I won't since I'm happy these tens of millions of voters were that stupid.
posted by torokunai at 5:40 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
recency bias
fine, fine:
38. Galba adopts Lucius, offending Marcus Salvius Otho
20. Isis marries Osiris, despite being siblings
7. Cronus eats a big rock, thinking it's a baby
posted by phooky at 6:06 PM on January 30 [27 favorites]
fine, fine:
38. Galba adopts Lucius, offending Marcus Salvius Otho
20. Isis marries Osiris, despite being siblings
7. Cronus eats a big rock, thinking it's a baby
posted by phooky at 6:06 PM on January 30 [27 favorites]
hmm, speaking of spoilers, I don't see Shane T Hazel in this list LOL
posted by torokunai at 6:09 PM on January 30
posted by torokunai at 6:09 PM on January 30
Rolling Stone healed Howard Dean's sore throat.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:17 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:17 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
I know this may fall under the “policy blunders” purview, but blaming a tiny handful of swing state third party voters rather than the Supreme Court for the GWB presidency is hella victim blaming.
Oh fuck this to hell. If Trump gets elected again because of some crackpot spoiler or some ivory pure leftists who cannot hold their noses, I'm going to make it my life's mission to blame these poor, precious victims loudly and every fucking time the topic is brought up. The only respite they'll ever get is that clean conscience they'll enjoy as we're all rounded up by the fascists.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:23 PM on January 30 [29 favorites]
Oh fuck this to hell. If Trump gets elected again because of some crackpot spoiler or some ivory pure leftists who cannot hold their noses, I'm going to make it my life's mission to blame these poor, precious victims loudly and every fucking time the topic is brought up. The only respite they'll ever get is that clean conscience they'll enjoy as we're all rounded up by the fascists.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:23 PM on January 30 [29 favorites]
Yes everyone is working on that narrative very hard wether it is going to relevant or not. It is very irritating.
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
What about that time Obama wore a tan suit? A wound that will never heal.
Having to add Reagan, Nixon, Clinton, Bush the Elder, Bush the Younger, and Biden as tan suit wearers would have knocked off too many other entries.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Having to add Reagan, Nixon, Clinton, Bush the Elder, Bush the Younger, and Biden as tan suit wearers would have knocked off too many other entries.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Obama Roasts Trump at the White House Correspondents Dinner
The mistake wasn't to roast Trump; the mistake was to ignore Russia and Russian infiltration of the Republican Party, which helped install him in a position of power where he could do irreparable damage.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:49 PM on January 30 [9 favorites]
The mistake wasn't to roast Trump; the mistake was to ignore Russia and Russian infiltration of the Republican Party, which helped install him in a position of power where he could do irreparable damage.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:49 PM on January 30 [9 favorites]
The mistake wasn't to roast Trump
I mean, roasting was definitely a mistake. He's too old - he would be tough and stringy. Stewing is the only real option, and would allow you to soften the meat and make the most of the higher than desirable fat content.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:03 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
I mean, roasting was definitely a mistake. He's too old - he would be tough and stringy. Stewing is the only real option, and would allow you to soften the meat and make the most of the higher than desirable fat content.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:03 PM on January 30 [5 favorites]
My, my, Nixon's not a cool guy
Vote for Nader? Maybe later
Guess that Shrub is the guy
All them good ol' boys, watching Fox News at 5
Saying, Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
posted by credulous at 7:03 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Vote for Nader? Maybe later
Guess that Shrub is the guy
All them good ol' boys, watching Fox News at 5
Saying, Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
Jeb Bush Thinks 2016 Is His Year to Shine
posted by credulous at 7:03 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
the santos thing is a funny clown car crash, but unless george has some real dirt on the republicans that somehow influences the party's electoral fortunes, it's a real stretch to include it among the 50 worst. the following are all more consequential:
•the ny democratic party failing to vet george santos after he becomes the republican nominee
•mccain suspending his campaign after the housing bubble burst for... a real good reason i bet
•paul wellstone using light aircraft as transportation
•larry craig adopting a wide stance
•mike pence almost single-handedly causing an AIDS outbreak in southern indiana
•biden not running in 2016
•john ashcroft singing 'let the eagle soar'
posted by logicpunk at 7:05 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
•the ny democratic party failing to vet george santos after he becomes the republican nominee
•mccain suspending his campaign after the housing bubble burst for... a real good reason i bet
•paul wellstone using light aircraft as transportation
•larry craig adopting a wide stance
•mike pence almost single-handedly causing an AIDS outbreak in southern indiana
•biden not running in 2016
•john ashcroft singing 'let the eagle soar'
posted by logicpunk at 7:05 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
What about that time Obama wore a tan suit?
Too soon. We have barely healed from Michelle's sleeveless dress, the Dijon mustard incident, and the Starbucks cup salute.
posted by credulous at 7:11 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
Too soon. We have barely healed from Michelle's sleeveless dress, the Dijon mustard incident, and the Starbucks cup salute.
posted by credulous at 7:11 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]
Stewing is the only real option, and would allow you to soften the meat and make the most of the higher than desirable fat content.
Lay fillets of Trump on wooden shingles. Piss on the fillets every day for two weeks. Then throw away Trump and cook the shingle.
They may point at Obama roasting Trump as putting the cherry on the shit parfait that was Trump deciding to run, but Trump and his maggots were headed there long before that.
RBG not retiring is on this list because why? So many other decisions regarding the Supremes or made by them could be listed, but that one I'm not going along with.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:38 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Lay fillets of Trump on wooden shingles. Piss on the fillets every day for two weeks. Then throw away Trump and cook the shingle.
They may point at Obama roasting Trump as putting the cherry on the shit parfait that was Trump deciding to run, but Trump and his maggots were headed there long before that.
RBG not retiring is on this list because why? So many other decisions regarding the Supremes or made by them could be listed, but that one I'm not going along with.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:38 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
Technically, it's unclear if the FL recount would have found the 537 votes necessary to change the election if it had been given enough time to complete the recount (and managed in a sincere manner to begin with).
There's actually an extremely long and thorough Wikipedia article about the recount and post-election analyses and I'm not saying you have to read the whole thing but even at a skim there's two points that pop out:
Centrist liberals love to complain that the left attacks them more than they do the right, but the center has a single narrative to explain every single loss that they think they deserved to win, and it's "the left fucked us". Should Gore have run a better campaign? Nah, the left fucked us. Should Democrats have fought harder for recounts in Florida? Nah, the left fucked us. Should Hillary have campaigned in Midwestern swing states instead of assuming she couldn't lose and just ignoring them? Nah, the left fucked us. Are we going to beat Trump in November? Nah, the left is going to fuck us. The center has no narrative whatsoever to explain Democratic losses other than its favorite refrain which establishes the left as sufficiently powerful to swing elections but also sufficiently contemptible to deserve nothing to keep them on board.
And they'll always, always bring up Nader, because the average American understands Florida 2000 just about as well as they understand the Stella Liebeck / Mcdonald's coffee lawsuit- a nonsense, counterfactual narrative that persists because its persistence and ubiquity is useful rather than because it corresponds in any meaningful way to reality.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:50 PM on January 30 [44 favorites]
There's actually an extremely long and thorough Wikipedia article about the recount and post-election analyses and I'm not saying you have to read the whole thing but even at a skim there's two points that pop out:
- There were many, many, many factors, most of which were illegitimate and severely reduced the number of likely Democratic voters, any of which would've swamped that 537 vote margin, and
- The result of any actual full count, in which every vote was counted and any standard you like was applied consistently to the various disputed ballots, is that Al Gore won Florida. Full stop. Nader voters didn't cost Gore the victory in Florida because Al Gore got more votes than George Bush did.
Centrist liberals love to complain that the left attacks them more than they do the right, but the center has a single narrative to explain every single loss that they think they deserved to win, and it's "the left fucked us". Should Gore have run a better campaign? Nah, the left fucked us. Should Democrats have fought harder for recounts in Florida? Nah, the left fucked us. Should Hillary have campaigned in Midwestern swing states instead of assuming she couldn't lose and just ignoring them? Nah, the left fucked us. Are we going to beat Trump in November? Nah, the left is going to fuck us. The center has no narrative whatsoever to explain Democratic losses other than its favorite refrain which establishes the left as sufficiently powerful to swing elections but also sufficiently contemptible to deserve nothing to keep them on board.
And they'll always, always bring up Nader, because the average American understands Florida 2000 just about as well as they understand the Stella Liebeck / Mcdonald's coffee lawsuit- a nonsense, counterfactual narrative that persists because its persistence and ubiquity is useful rather than because it corresponds in any meaningful way to reality.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:50 PM on January 30 [44 favorites]
Or you know, to be a lot more brief: "Nader got more votes than the margin between Gore and Bush in Florida in 2000, therefore Nader cost Gore the victory in Florida" is basically the same kind of argument as "raising the minimum wage causes unemployment because it raises the cost of labor and raising the cost of something reduces the demand for it". Within its own tiny, hermetically-sealed bubble, you can see the logic of it. If you look at literally any of the larger picture around it, it's incredibly obvious hokum which is deeply emotionally appealing to people who want it to be true.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:59 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:59 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Obama Roasts Trump at the White House Correspondents Dinner
Congrats on this author waking up from his/her coma in 2015!
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:04 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Congrats on this author waking up from his/her coma in 2015!
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:04 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
relatable because it illustrates what, for me, is the most common and yet easily avoidable bad political decision. Which is when a voter (could be you, could be me) doesn't vote for whoever they think has the best chance of beating who they fear the most.
Yes, the real lesson from the 2000 election (and a bit from the 2016 election) is that there is a large cohort of voters out there that are just Lucy with the football. Every election cycle Charlie Brown (the DNC) believes he's going to kick that football, and every time the same sort of voters still doesn't vote for the Dem candidates but still spends the next 2-4-6 years complaining about the consequences of their own actions. Better to play to win, and just write off the voters who will "Biden is committing genocide!" themselves right into the first wave of death camps.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:12 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Yes, the real lesson from the 2000 election (and a bit from the 2016 election) is that there is a large cohort of voters out there that are just Lucy with the football. Every election cycle Charlie Brown (the DNC) believes he's going to kick that football, and every time the same sort of voters still doesn't vote for the Dem candidates but still spends the next 2-4-6 years complaining about the consequences of their own actions. Better to play to win, and just write off the voters who will "Biden is committing genocide!" themselves right into the first wave of death camps.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:12 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Thank you for succinctly illustrating my point.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:18 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:18 PM on January 30 [10 favorites]
I think the most massive blunder in American political history is that Kerry's handlers didn't brief him to properly say: "Wit Wiz".
posted by ovvl at 8:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 8:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Do “vote harder” types even actually vote in any greater proportions than anyone else? Sneakingly suspect they don’t and it’s all just a weird game they play.
posted by Artw at 9:08 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:08 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
? I live in California so can just mail in my ballot like Oregon and other actually democratic states now.
People have a right to vote for Daffy Duck if they want. I just ask if they don't want Trump to win, to vote for the Dem ticket in November, if they think their state is close enough for the Republicans to steal like they successfully did in 2000 and tried their damnedest in 2020.
I fail to see why this is controversial.
posted by torokunai at 9:16 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
People have a right to vote for Daffy Duck if they want. I just ask if they don't want Trump to win, to vote for the Dem ticket in November, if they think their state is close enough for the Republicans to steal like they successfully did in 2000 and tried their damnedest in 2020.
I fail to see why this is controversial.
posted by torokunai at 9:16 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
W. declared “Mission Accomplished” in 2003, then went on to re-election in 2004, improving both his electoral and popular vote shares.
Come, come: The last time before this that the GOP won the popular vote was a month or so before Rain Man was released and they haven't done so since. Let them have this.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:20 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Come, come: The last time before this that the GOP won the popular vote was a month or so before Rain Man was released and they haven't done so since. Let them have this.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:20 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
the voters who will "Biden is committing genocide!"
Is the contention here that Biden is not in fact complicit in the commission of a genocide?
Or that even if he is, people shouldn't say it, because votes?
Somehow I find the second perspective perhaps even more revolting than the first, accepting that the genocide is taking place but asking people to be silent about it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:28 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Is the contention here that Biden is not in fact complicit in the commission of a genocide?
Or that even if he is, people shouldn't say it, because votes?
Somehow I find the second perspective perhaps even more revolting than the first, accepting that the genocide is taking place but asking people to be silent about it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:28 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
in that same election, tens of millions didn't bother to vote at all, but no one ever blames them for anything
Voter suppression, it is a thing. Even in your friendly neighbour to the north, I have been denied my franchise in about half the elections in my life. Why? Well, I am disabled and do not drive, so many is the deputy returning officer who has decided on the spot that no driver's license equals non-person (never mind what the signage behind them and the mailers and the website all say).
After taking a bus halfway across the city and standing in line for fifteen minutes on my cane before being sent on my merry, I am reckoned in the tally of people who "didn't bother to vote at all" as if I had sat home playing Xbox.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:29 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Voter suppression, it is a thing. Even in your friendly neighbour to the north, I have been denied my franchise in about half the elections in my life. Why? Well, I am disabled and do not drive, so many is the deputy returning officer who has decided on the spot that no driver's license equals non-person (never mind what the signage behind them and the mailers and the website all say).
After taking a bus halfway across the city and standing in line for fifteen minutes on my cane before being sent on my merry, I am reckoned in the tally of people who "didn't bother to vote at all" as if I had sat home playing Xbox.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:29 PM on January 30 [13 favorites]
Here’s a really simple theory of modern American presidential elections: the candidate with the most charisma wins. The one exception being 2020, where the election was decided by an adverse reaction to Trump’s charisma.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:33 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:33 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
But...it's weird, under that theory, that charisma needed the supreme court to steal the election for it in 2000, and that (alleged) charisma couldn't manage the popular vote in 2016, either. So canny, that charisma, the way it works the whole system!
(That said, if you squint the right way I think you'll see that Biden has a classic type of charisma that a lot of us might be kind of numb to, maybe similarly to how a lot of us couldn't see W's charisma behind his phony folksiness, nor (I suppose) Trump's [black-hole]charisma behind his outright malignancy.)
posted by nobody at 9:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
(That said, if you squint the right way I think you'll see that Biden has a classic type of charisma that a lot of us might be kind of numb to, maybe similarly to how a lot of us couldn't see W's charisma behind his phony folksiness, nor (I suppose) Trump's [black-hole]charisma behind his outright malignancy.)
posted by nobody at 9:56 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
Third party candidates who “want to get their ideas out there” who run for offices they have no chance of winning are vain fucks that should not be given attention or a pass, should be rightly excoriated. 1% to 5% showing in an election is a sign you have NO FUCKING BUSINESS being involved. Your ideas are showing as, forking irrelevant. Maybe find a space where you can build them? 100% vanity plays. Nader as example was a sad person past prime, would have been sweet if he could get elected as house rep from Austin, but too forking vain to bother trying and too shitty of a politician to do it. Don’t know if he was a spoiler, but do know he was a vain shit fuck.
posted by ixipkcams at 11:03 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
posted by ixipkcams at 11:03 PM on January 30 [11 favorites]
Spoilers this year will include RFK Jr. and maybe Dean Phillips trying to sap Democrat votes. Funny how even the Republicans who hate Trump aren’t willing to do the one thing in their power to sabotage him by running third-party. Looking at Liz Cheney.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:57 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:57 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
At this point, Cheney would draw more votes from Biden than she might Trump. She’d get the votes of the remaining nevertrumpers who would have likely held their noses and voted for Biden.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:51 AM on January 31
posted by Thorzdad at 2:51 AM on January 31
If a candidate is so loathsome that they are shedding voters who should be aligned with them, it seems more efficient for the party to run a better candidate than to excoriate thousands of individuals for not giving them the votes they are owed.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:17 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:17 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Allow me to say that I wholeheartedly agree with pope guilty.
posted by nofundy at 4:42 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 4:42 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
The mistake wasn't to roast Trump; the mistake was to ignore Russia and Russian infiltration of the Republican Party, which helped install him in a position of power where he could do irreparable damage.
The Obama administration didn't ignore the Russian influence operation; it was well aware of it at the time. Its mistake was briefing the Republican Congressional leaders as if they would act in good faith, and then backing down after Mitch McConnell said he would publicly deny the facts and accuse Obama of politicking. Indeed, the mistake was not going public both with the Russian influence op and McConnell's treason.
posted by Gelatin at 5:14 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
The Obama administration didn't ignore the Russian influence operation; it was well aware of it at the time. Its mistake was briefing the Republican Congressional leaders as if they would act in good faith, and then backing down after Mitch McConnell said he would publicly deny the facts and accuse Obama of politicking. Indeed, the mistake was not going public both with the Russian influence op and McConnell's treason.
posted by Gelatin at 5:14 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
Better to play to win, and just write off the voters who will "Biden is committing genocide!" themselves right into the first wave of death camps.
Masks off, I guess. It's been less than 48 hours from Pelosi calling for the FBI to investigate protestors and people on this hellsite have already not only accused fellow posters of being Russian spies, now they're gloating about them being grist for concentration camps just for opposing genocidal maniacs. And we have ten months to go.
For all the accusations of leftists depressing the Dem vote, the party itself (and a good portion of the base) turning the hippy-punching up to eleven and using state violence to enforce their bigotry will do far more to destroy any hopes of 2024 than anything else, by several orders of magnitude than any leftist movement.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:38 AM on January 31 [18 favorites]
Masks off, I guess. It's been less than 48 hours from Pelosi calling for the FBI to investigate protestors and people on this hellsite have already not only accused fellow posters of being Russian spies, now they're gloating about them being grist for concentration camps just for opposing genocidal maniacs. And we have ten months to go.
For all the accusations of leftists depressing the Dem vote, the party itself (and a good portion of the base) turning the hippy-punching up to eleven and using state violence to enforce their bigotry will do far more to destroy any hopes of 2024 than anything else, by several orders of magnitude than any leftist movement.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:38 AM on January 31 [18 favorites]
asking people to be silent about it.
In retrospect, this was too gentle. It's not a request, it's a demand, and it's usually accompanied by the statement they will hold us responsible for whatever the fascists do.
MetaFilter: if you're not willing to be silent about genocide, you're responsible for whatever the fascists do, including your own death.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:04 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
In retrospect, this was too gentle. It's not a request, it's a demand, and it's usually accompanied by the statement they will hold us responsible for whatever the fascists do.
MetaFilter: if you're not willing to be silent about genocide, you're responsible for whatever the fascists do, including your own death.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:04 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
As someone who occasionally voted Green in that era I'm confident in saying the Florida/Nader thing was definitely a mistake from the point of view of many people who voted for Nader. Certainly not all, but for many (1) it was meant to be an inconsequential protest vote, or (2) they truly believed that W. was a centrist Republican and not meaningfully different from Gore. Both those assumptions were wrong.
Those were incorrect assumptions. That there were also other mistakes too--the article even lists a mistake Gore made that same election--but that doesn't make the votes non-mistakes.
posted by mark k at 8:00 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
Those were incorrect assumptions. That there were also other mistakes too--the article even lists a mistake Gore made that same election--but that doesn't make the votes non-mistakes.
posted by mark k at 8:00 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
As someone who occasionally voted Green in that era I'm confident in saying the Florida/Nader thing was definitely a mistake from the point of view of many people who voted for Nader. Certainly not all, but for many (1) it was meant to be an inconsequential protest vote, or (2) they truly believed that W. was a centrist Republican and not meaningfully different from Gore. Both those assumptions were wrong.
Those were incorrect assumptions. That there were also other mistakes too--the article even lists a mistake Gore made that same election--but that doesn't make the votes non-mistakes.
That's the thing. I'm sick of dilettantish third-party voters always insisting that their votes are free from any consequences. ("But the DNC do what I said, it's their fault!" Um, why should the DNC do what you say if you're one of their most unreliable voters?)
When a bad historical event happens, there are usually multiple reasons why that event happened. Just because you can point to somebody else as one of the reasons for that bad event happening, that doesn't make you any less guilty if you contributed to the same end result. I think we can all agree that the Hillary Clinton campaign and the DNC made a lot of wrong moves, but that doesn't mean people who voted for Jill Stein out of pique (and there is no positive case for voting for Jill Stein) weren't responsible too.
posted by jonp72 at 10:01 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Those were incorrect assumptions. That there were also other mistakes too--the article even lists a mistake Gore made that same election--but that doesn't make the votes non-mistakes.
That's the thing. I'm sick of dilettantish third-party voters always insisting that their votes are free from any consequences. ("But the DNC do what I said, it's their fault!" Um, why should the DNC do what you say if you're one of their most unreliable voters?)
When a bad historical event happens, there are usually multiple reasons why that event happened. Just because you can point to somebody else as one of the reasons for that bad event happening, that doesn't make you any less guilty if you contributed to the same end result. I think we can all agree that the Hillary Clinton campaign and the DNC made a lot of wrong moves, but that doesn't mean people who voted for Jill Stein out of pique (and there is no positive case for voting for Jill Stein) weren't responsible too.
posted by jonp72 at 10:01 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I think we can all agree that the Hillary Clinton campaign and the DNC made a lot of wrong moves
Jesus, can you?
Cannot fail to underscore just how much I have never seen centrist Dems do this and how irrationally unhinged they get when you suggest that they do.
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Jesus, can you?
Cannot fail to underscore just how much I have never seen centrist Dems do this and how irrationally unhinged they get when you suggest that they do.
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
I mean, seriously, let’s review this for a second:
FIRST she was the electability candidate, everyone who didn’t like that had to shut up because she was the only option
THEN she ran a shit campaign, but anyone who mentioned that was a bernie bro defeatist
THEN she fucking lost, as the electability candidate, thus fully failing to deliver the one thing she was supposed to be good for.
And then after that all I have heard is it’s literally anybody else’s fault but especially anyone who didn’t agree that she was electable.
Team sports politics is an absolutely insane drug.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
FIRST she was the electability candidate, everyone who didn’t like that had to shut up because she was the only option
THEN she ran a shit campaign, but anyone who mentioned that was a bernie bro defeatist
THEN she fucking lost, as the electability candidate, thus fully failing to deliver the one thing she was supposed to be good for.
And then after that all I have heard is it’s literally anybody else’s fault but especially anyone who didn’t agree that she was electable.
Team sports politics is an absolutely insane drug.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
FIRST she was the electability candidate, everyone who didn’t like that had to shut up because she was the only option
That's not true. The other available options had to defeat her in the primary, which they did not do. As for point #3, if her Democratic competition couldn't even win a primary how could they win an election?
As for line #4, she ran as an electable candidate, wasn't elected, and basically has gone away. What more do you need her to do?
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:44 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
That's not true. The other available options had to defeat her in the primary, which they did not do. As for point #3, if her Democratic competition couldn't even win a primary how could they win an election?
As for line #4, she ran as an electable candidate, wasn't elected, and basically has gone away. What more do you need her to do?
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:44 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
the voters who will "Biden is committing genocide!" themselves right into the first wave of death camps.
Wow, this is searingly racist. Trivializing the 25,000+ humans who were just snuffed out in real life in Palestine while simultaneously appealing to a sense of gravity for your fanfic situation about future death camps for liberals. It's disturbing.
posted by dusty potato at 10:46 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Wow, this is searingly racist. Trivializing the 25,000+ humans who were just snuffed out in real life in Palestine while simultaneously appealing to a sense of gravity for your fanfic situation about future death camps for liberals. It's disturbing.
posted by dusty potato at 10:46 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
bernie bro
A label most gleefully wielded against trans women, repeatedly and insistently. An intentional use of political masculinisation to devalue and denigrate our contributions.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:57 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
A label most gleefully wielded against trans women, repeatedly and insistently. An intentional use of political masculinisation to devalue and denigrate our contributions.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:57 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I think we can all agree that the Hillary Clinton campaign and the DNC made a lot of wrong moves, but that doesn't mean people who voted for Jill Stein out of pique (and there is no positive case for voting for Jill Stein) weren't responsible too.
Unless you can show that there were enough Stein voters who would have voted for Clinton otherwise to make up for Clinton's losses then I don't think they were responsible.
And refusing to vote for someone responsible for war crimes isn't really "pique".
Even though supporters of left leaning candidates overwhelmingly turn out for the Democratic primary winner, we routinely get blamed for losses by problematic and uncharismatic candidates.
The Democrats could always run a candidate that appeals to the left. But then they know they would lose centrist voters.
The Democrats decided they'd rather lose leftist votes than centrist votes, but nobody ever complains that centrists are costing elections by refusing to vote for actually left wing candidates. Their votes aren't treated as owed to the Democrats.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:32 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Unless you can show that there were enough Stein voters who would have voted for Clinton otherwise to make up for Clinton's losses then I don't think they were responsible.
And refusing to vote for someone responsible for war crimes isn't really "pique".
Even though supporters of left leaning candidates overwhelmingly turn out for the Democratic primary winner, we routinely get blamed for losses by problematic and uncharismatic candidates.
The Democrats could always run a candidate that appeals to the left. But then they know they would lose centrist voters.
The Democrats decided they'd rather lose leftist votes than centrist votes, but nobody ever complains that centrists are costing elections by refusing to vote for actually left wing candidates. Their votes aren't treated as owed to the Democrats.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:32 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
That's not true. The other available options had to defeat her in the primary, which they did not do. As for point #3, if her Democratic competition couldn't even win a primary how could they win an election?
That assumes that the primaries are actually fair competitions to determine the candidate, which I don't think is an uncontroversial position.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:40 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
That assumes that the primaries are actually fair competitions to determine the candidate, which I don't think is an uncontroversial position.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:40 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Her entire pitch in the primaries was how solidly electable she was and how supporting anyone else was irresponsibly risking Trump getting in.
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
"You can not have a 3rd party in the USA as long as you have one party operating under two different names." Not sure who said this WEB DuBois?
posted by DJZouke at 11:49 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 11:49 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
LOL right before I clicked on this thread I said "It won't be ten comments in before some preener tries to argue that the Dems should have EARNED those votes in Florida" and yep.
Nobody who isn't already an Ardent Leftist likes or will vote for Ardent Leftists. Ardent Leftists are just as blind to this as True Conservatives are blind to the fact that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:08 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Nobody who isn't already an Ardent Leftist likes or will vote for Ardent Leftists. Ardent Leftists are just as blind to this as True Conservatives are blind to the fact that nobody else thinks cruelty is funny.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:08 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Nobody who isn't already an Ardent Leftist likes or will vote for Ardent Leftists.
Then why expect them to vote for you?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:13 PM on January 31
Then why expect them to vote for you?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:13 PM on January 31
The Democratic Party cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Any statements to the contractual are childish immaturity and letting Trump win.
posted by Artw at 12:31 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
Any statements to the contractual are childish immaturity and letting Trump win.
posted by Artw at 12:31 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
Unless you can show that there were enough Stein voters who would have voted for Clinton otherwise to make up for Clinton's losses then I don't think they were responsible.
They're responsible in that there were erstwhile Democrats who voted for both Jill Stein and Gary Johnson & the combined Stein/Johnson vote was enough to tip the balance in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. If we had a popular vote system, then the Stein/Johnson vote wouldn't have mattered. But because we have an Electoral College system, that vote did matter. The Stein/Johnson vote was 20x the winning margin in Michigan, 3x time the winning margin in Pennsylvania, and 5x the winning margin in Wisconsin. As a result, those 46 electoral votes went to Donald Trump instead of Hillary Clinton.
By the way, guess what three states the Mueller report said Yanukovych (the Russian puppet in Ukraine at the time) shared polling data on with Paul Manafort & the Trump team? It was Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. It's on p. 140 of the report.
posted by jonp72 at 1:13 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
They're responsible in that there were erstwhile Democrats who voted for both Jill Stein and Gary Johnson & the combined Stein/Johnson vote was enough to tip the balance in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. If we had a popular vote system, then the Stein/Johnson vote wouldn't have mattered. But because we have an Electoral College system, that vote did matter. The Stein/Johnson vote was 20x the winning margin in Michigan, 3x time the winning margin in Pennsylvania, and 5x the winning margin in Wisconsin. As a result, those 46 electoral votes went to Donald Trump instead of Hillary Clinton.
By the way, guess what three states the Mueller report said Yanukovych (the Russian puppet in Ukraine at the time) shared polling data on with Paul Manafort & the Trump team? It was Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. It's on p. 140 of the report.
posted by jonp72 at 1:13 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
somebody wiser than me said it:
you cannot negotiate the past.
a great band put it thus:
duty now for the future
posted by philip-random at 1:29 PM on January 31
you cannot negotiate the past.
a great band put it thus:
duty now for the future
posted by philip-random at 1:29 PM on January 31
I don't think leftists need to take any responsibility for Gary Johnson voters, and Johnson got several times the number of votes Stein did. I also don't think you can assume that every Stein voters was a Democrat protest voting.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:31 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:31 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Is the contention here that Biden is not in fact complicit in the commission of a genocide?
I think Biden is complicit in the genocide in Gaza, but he is not the cause, much like the Clintons were complicit in the genocide against the Tutsis in Rwanda but weren't the cause of it either.
There are several complicating factors. If you go by the plain meaning of "genocide" as it was defined by the Jewish refugee Raphael Lemkin in the Genocide Convention, then what Israel is doing in Gaza constitutes genocide (and I agree with that characterization), but any definition of genocide that is broad enough to include Israel is also broad enough to include the October 7th attacks by Hamas. The war in Gaza is a war by two genocidal parties, not one.
Our country's military funding of Israel is enabling genocide to happen in Gaza, but that genocide would continue even if we withdrew every last dollar of funding. Even if we didn't have a single defense dollar in our budget allocated to Israel any more, American defense manufacturers would still be selling weapons to Israel.
And if you've been paying attention to public opinion polls in Israel, the Israeli public (never mind Netanyahu) refuses to support a permanent ceasefire based on a two-state solution, even if the United States withdraws all military funding from Israel if they refuse. I support the median Democratic voter's position of wanting a ceasefire in Gaza, but beyond that, there are no good options. Israel has a lot of agency in this conflict, and they are going to do what they are going to do, regardless of what we in the United States have to say about it.
At least Biden is providing humanitarian aid to Gaza, which I highly doubt Donald Trump would do. In addition, Biden has no incentive to keep Netanyahu in power, whereas Donald Trump views Netanyahu as a fellow ethnonationalist strongman.
I know voting for Biden is the lesser evil, but I embrace it. I embrace it because not voting or voting 3rd party & letting Donald Trump win & extinguish democracy in the United States is the greater evil.
posted by jonp72 at 1:36 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
I think Biden is complicit in the genocide in Gaza, but he is not the cause, much like the Clintons were complicit in the genocide against the Tutsis in Rwanda but weren't the cause of it either.
There are several complicating factors. If you go by the plain meaning of "genocide" as it was defined by the Jewish refugee Raphael Lemkin in the Genocide Convention, then what Israel is doing in Gaza constitutes genocide (and I agree with that characterization), but any definition of genocide that is broad enough to include Israel is also broad enough to include the October 7th attacks by Hamas. The war in Gaza is a war by two genocidal parties, not one.
Our country's military funding of Israel is enabling genocide to happen in Gaza, but that genocide would continue even if we withdrew every last dollar of funding. Even if we didn't have a single defense dollar in our budget allocated to Israel any more, American defense manufacturers would still be selling weapons to Israel.
And if you've been paying attention to public opinion polls in Israel, the Israeli public (never mind Netanyahu) refuses to support a permanent ceasefire based on a two-state solution, even if the United States withdraws all military funding from Israel if they refuse. I support the median Democratic voter's position of wanting a ceasefire in Gaza, but beyond that, there are no good options. Israel has a lot of agency in this conflict, and they are going to do what they are going to do, regardless of what we in the United States have to say about it.
At least Biden is providing humanitarian aid to Gaza, which I highly doubt Donald Trump would do. In addition, Biden has no incentive to keep Netanyahu in power, whereas Donald Trump views Netanyahu as a fellow ethnonationalist strongman.
I know voting for Biden is the lesser evil, but I embrace it. I embrace it because not voting or voting 3rd party & letting Donald Trump win & extinguish democracy in the United States is the greater evil.
posted by jonp72 at 1:36 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
I think Biden is complicit in the genocide in Gaza, but he is not the cause, much like the Clintons were complicit in the genocide against the Tutsis in Rwanda but weren't the cause of it either.
To the best of my knowledge, Bill Clinton, for all his faults, wasn't sell guns to the Hutu militias during the genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:40 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
To the best of my knowledge, Bill Clinton, for all his faults, wasn't sell guns to the Hutu militias during the genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:40 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I don't think leftists need to take any responsibility for Gary Johnson voters, and Johnson got several times the number of votes Stein did. I also don't think you can assume that every Stein voters was a Democrat protest voting.
Yes, but it does illustrate the impossible bind that Democrats were in. As far as the numbers were concerned, they needed both Johnson & Stein voters, but I don't think there's any policy or tactical move that the Democrats could have pulled off that would have gotten both Johnson and Stein voters. There's no real place on the ideological map where I think you could pull that off. The Democrats could have readjusted to win only Stein voters, but then why should they do so, if it provides them with no guarantee of gaining anything & they could have lost the battleground states anyway.
And that's assuming that the Stein voters actually could have been appeased with concrete political policies. I don't think that's the case for all Stein voters. I would bet that there's at least some Stein-Biden voters on this message board & I really want to hear people explain the calculus as to why Joe "Mr. 1988 Mass Incarceration Crime Bill" Biden was OK in 2020, but Hillary "Superpredator" Clinton in 2016 was a bridge too far.
posted by jonp72 at 1:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Yes, but it does illustrate the impossible bind that Democrats were in. As far as the numbers were concerned, they needed both Johnson & Stein voters, but I don't think there's any policy or tactical move that the Democrats could have pulled off that would have gotten both Johnson and Stein voters. There's no real place on the ideological map where I think you could pull that off. The Democrats could have readjusted to win only Stein voters, but then why should they do so, if it provides them with no guarantee of gaining anything & they could have lost the battleground states anyway.
And that's assuming that the Stein voters actually could have been appeased with concrete political policies. I don't think that's the case for all Stein voters. I would bet that there's at least some Stein-Biden voters on this message board & I really want to hear people explain the calculus as to why Joe "Mr. 1988 Mass Incarceration Crime Bill" Biden was OK in 2020, but Hillary "Superpredator" Clinton in 2016 was a bridge too far.
posted by jonp72 at 1:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I mean the obvious reason was that every prediction said Clinton was going to win without them, and by 2020 we knew those predictions were meaningless guesswork.
I voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020, but I think the Stein-Biden voters change in perspective is pretty comprehensible.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:53 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020, but I think the Stein-Biden voters change in perspective is pretty comprehensible.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:53 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020, but I think the Stein-Biden voters change in perspective is pretty comprehensible.
It's comprehensible in terms of risk aversion, but it's not comprehensible in terms of the moral arguments that third-party voters in general and Stein voters in particular have made. I'm making a similar risk aversion argument about Biden. The risks are too great not to vote for Biden.
Other posters have disagreed with this stance & say that the Democrats should provide more reasons to vote for their candidates rather than against the Republicans. The problem with this is that, despite people saying in opinion polls that they would rather be motivated by positive appeals, the data from elections suggests that voters are more motivated by what they vote against rather than by what they vote for.
In addition, even if we agree that Democrats have more positivity than Republicans, we still have to respond tactically to the choices that Republicans make. Republicans will vote for Donald Trump, even when they have large misgivings about him, because they hate the Democrats more. This is especially the case among Republicans who believe in the Big Lie & believe that voting for Trump is the only way to save America.
If Republicans can be motivated to vote by what they vote against, we Democrats have to be similarly motivated too.
posted by jonp72 at 2:02 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
It's comprehensible in terms of risk aversion, but it's not comprehensible in terms of the moral arguments that third-party voters in general and Stein voters in particular have made. I'm making a similar risk aversion argument about Biden. The risks are too great not to vote for Biden.
Other posters have disagreed with this stance & say that the Democrats should provide more reasons to vote for their candidates rather than against the Republicans. The problem with this is that, despite people saying in opinion polls that they would rather be motivated by positive appeals, the data from elections suggests that voters are more motivated by what they vote against rather than by what they vote for.
In addition, even if we agree that Democrats have more positivity than Republicans, we still have to respond tactically to the choices that Republicans make. Republicans will vote for Donald Trump, even when they have large misgivings about him, because they hate the Democrats more. This is especially the case among Republicans who believe in the Big Lie & believe that voting for Trump is the only way to save America.
If Republicans can be motivated to vote by what they vote against, we Democrats have to be similarly motivated too.
posted by jonp72 at 2:02 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I have to read this thread with my eyes unfocused, because the sharp edges would cut my eyes if I didn't.
posted by JHarris at 3:00 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 3:00 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Nobody who isn't already an Ardent Leftist likes or will vote for Ardent Leftists.
And yet Republicans of almost all stripes vote for fascists. Why is it crazy to imagine the DNC, or at the very least, just general dem voters, might vote for someone just a tiny bit to the left of what was considered moderate right in 1980?
When, in 2019, it was still up in the air about whether Biden or Sanders would win the primaries, one day out of the blue, on a SATURDAY, something like a dozen senators, governors, other candidates threw their hats in the ring for Biden. On the same day. It was pretty fucking obvious that the fix was in. Biden won the primary and, yes, sure he won the election, but TRUMP GOT MORE VOTES THAN HE DID IN 2016.
Meanwhile you have Sanders doing a townhall on fucking FOX NEWS and getting applause for his ideas from the audience.
I'm not saying Sanders would win, or had he won, would have been a great president. But I CAN say that he and others on the left scare the shit out of the Democratic establishment. And considering that we've lost abortion rights, and we're paying for a genocide, and the economy is tanking, all while under Biden, I can see why.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. Fuck this shit. And people wonder why so many of us don't vote.
posted by nushustu at 3:20 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
And yet Republicans of almost all stripes vote for fascists. Why is it crazy to imagine the DNC, or at the very least, just general dem voters, might vote for someone just a tiny bit to the left of what was considered moderate right in 1980?
When, in 2019, it was still up in the air about whether Biden or Sanders would win the primaries, one day out of the blue, on a SATURDAY, something like a dozen senators, governors, other candidates threw their hats in the ring for Biden. On the same day. It was pretty fucking obvious that the fix was in. Biden won the primary and, yes, sure he won the election, but TRUMP GOT MORE VOTES THAN HE DID IN 2016.
Meanwhile you have Sanders doing a townhall on fucking FOX NEWS and getting applause for his ideas from the audience.
I'm not saying Sanders would win, or had he won, would have been a great president. But I CAN say that he and others on the left scare the shit out of the Democratic establishment. And considering that we've lost abortion rights, and we're paying for a genocide, and the economy is tanking, all while under Biden, I can see why.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. Fuck this shit. And people wonder why so many of us don't vote.
posted by nushustu at 3:20 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
They're responsible in that there were erstwhile Democrats who voted for both Jill Stein and Gary Johnson
If you're going with "all third-party votes are stolen from major party candidates" I have no idea why you'd think it's the Democrats that Gary Johnson is siphoning from. The Libertarian Party loves to do the whole "oh we believe in personal liberty" shtick but it was founded to be a party for far-right loons, it runs far-right loons (like, say, Gary Johnson) and its membership are primarily far-right loons. But nobody's asking whether the LP cost Trump anything.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:34 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
If you're going with "all third-party votes are stolen from major party candidates" I have no idea why you'd think it's the Democrats that Gary Johnson is siphoning from. The Libertarian Party loves to do the whole "oh we believe in personal liberty" shtick but it was founded to be a party for far-right loons, it runs far-right loons (like, say, Gary Johnson) and its membership are primarily far-right loons. But nobody's asking whether the LP cost Trump anything.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:34 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
OMG SHUT IT ABOUT RBG NOT RETIRING ALREADY
Ok sorry had to let that out
(She wasn't sitting there useless, people, while not retiring! She was ruling on shit!)
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:00 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Ok sorry had to let that out
(She wasn't sitting there useless, people, while not retiring! She was ruling on shit!)
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:00 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Yipes this thread is quite toxic sorry i waded in
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:05 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:05 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
so there’s this standard piece of kayfabe that’s going on in these discussions: everyone involved diligently pretends that elections and democracy are compatible.
i know it sounds overtly bonkers to say “hey elections and democracy can’t coexist,” but, like, elections and democracy are not compatible, folks, and until the enlightenment gang came along it was a truth universally acknowledged that elections and democracy aren’t compatible. electoral means are innately oligarchic, since to stand for election with any hope of success one must in some way be notable1, and the reliable way to be notable is to either already hold power in one form or another or to otherwise be well-connected to those who hold power. there are some rare few who due to massive personal charisma or heroic backstory or something equivalent are able to become sufficiently notable to successfully stand for election without having already been powerful, but those are vanishingly rare. their presence grants a patina of democratic legitimacy to the whole project, but just a patina.
because elections and democracy are incompatible, voting can be understood as a duty, something like the duty to pay taxes or register for the draft, and it can be treated as a ritual, something like the rituals recently carried out in the u.k. to transfer the late elizabeth windsor’s monarchical legitimacy to her son, but it cannot be treated as an opportunity to in any meaningful way express one’s preferences or one’s desires for the future of the state.
here is where you likely expect me to start talking about how expressing one’s preferences or one’s desires for the future of the state requires engaging in non-electoral politics, but it’s not. this is because there is no available method whatsoever, electoral or non-electoral, for non-notables to express preferences or desires about the future of the state in any way that will have any impact.
so vote for whatever notable is least bad, pay your taxes if you have taxes to pay, register for the draft if you have to register for the draft, and accept that we the non-notables have no influence, have never had any influence, and never will have any influence over the state or its workings.
this may, in fact, be a useful frame for understanding trump voters, and particularly the white racists who nevertheless voted for obama before they voted for trump. these are people who have failed to accept the political irrelevance that we all share, and who have therefore emotionally/socially bound themselves to whatever notable appears to promise the upending of the system as a whole. by supporting upheaval for the sake of upheaval, non-notables can feel a glimmer of herostratan notability-by-notoriety, since participating in the attempted destruction of the state is the closest thing that we have to participating in the decision-making processes of the state.
anyway. voting is obligatory, voting correctly is morally required, but voting (correctly or not) is not a form of participation in democracy and moreover there is no available way to participate in democracy.
1: it’s worth observing that our word “noble,” as in “this person is in the nobility,” is descended from the latin for “notable”.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:20 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
i know it sounds overtly bonkers to say “hey elections and democracy can’t coexist,” but, like, elections and democracy are not compatible, folks, and until the enlightenment gang came along it was a truth universally acknowledged that elections and democracy aren’t compatible. electoral means are innately oligarchic, since to stand for election with any hope of success one must in some way be notable1, and the reliable way to be notable is to either already hold power in one form or another or to otherwise be well-connected to those who hold power. there are some rare few who due to massive personal charisma or heroic backstory or something equivalent are able to become sufficiently notable to successfully stand for election without having already been powerful, but those are vanishingly rare. their presence grants a patina of democratic legitimacy to the whole project, but just a patina.
because elections and democracy are incompatible, voting can be understood as a duty, something like the duty to pay taxes or register for the draft, and it can be treated as a ritual, something like the rituals recently carried out in the u.k. to transfer the late elizabeth windsor’s monarchical legitimacy to her son, but it cannot be treated as an opportunity to in any meaningful way express one’s preferences or one’s desires for the future of the state.
here is where you likely expect me to start talking about how expressing one’s preferences or one’s desires for the future of the state requires engaging in non-electoral politics, but it’s not. this is because there is no available method whatsoever, electoral or non-electoral, for non-notables to express preferences or desires about the future of the state in any way that will have any impact.
so vote for whatever notable is least bad, pay your taxes if you have taxes to pay, register for the draft if you have to register for the draft, and accept that we the non-notables have no influence, have never had any influence, and never will have any influence over the state or its workings.
this may, in fact, be a useful frame for understanding trump voters, and particularly the white racists who nevertheless voted for obama before they voted for trump. these are people who have failed to accept the political irrelevance that we all share, and who have therefore emotionally/socially bound themselves to whatever notable appears to promise the upending of the system as a whole. by supporting upheaval for the sake of upheaval, non-notables can feel a glimmer of herostratan notability-by-notoriety, since participating in the attempted destruction of the state is the closest thing that we have to participating in the decision-making processes of the state.
anyway. voting is obligatory, voting correctly is morally required, but voting (correctly or not) is not a form of participation in democracy and moreover there is no available way to participate in democracy.
1: it’s worth observing that our word “noble,” as in “this person is in the nobility,” is descended from the latin for “notable”.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:20 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
and the economy is tanking
However much I agree with some of your arguments (especially your first one), this one here is a false right-wing talking point (though I suspect a lot of business people have made a lot of decisions this past year under the assumption we'd be in a recession by now).
posted by nobody at 4:31 PM on January 31 [10 favorites]
However much I agree with some of your arguments (especially your first one), this one here is a false right-wing talking point (though I suspect a lot of business people have made a lot of decisions this past year under the assumption we'd be in a recession by now).
posted by nobody at 4:31 PM on January 31 [10 favorites]
nobody is correct. The most recent news is that the economy grew 3.3% last quarter.
posted by JHarris at 4:40 PM on January 31 [8 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 4:40 PM on January 31 [8 favorites]
She wasn't sitting there useless, people, while not retiring! She was ruling on shit!
One could say the same about a car that just ran out of gas—"It wasn't just sitting there useless, it was providing transportation!"—but it doesn't give much solace when you're stranded in the desert 50 miles down the road from a sign that had read "Next Exit: Last Gas for 200 Miles."
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:50 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
One could say the same about a car that just ran out of gas—"It wasn't just sitting there useless, it was providing transportation!"—but it doesn't give much solace when you're stranded in the desert 50 miles down the road from a sign that had read "Next Exit: Last Gas for 200 Miles."
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:50 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
RBG was writing dissenting opinions (which are better than nothing but can't change anything now). Not sure what her WAR was vs. e.g. a Justice Jackson on that would be.
As for the Biden economy, https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1f4JL is an interesting graph showing (blue line) 74% of age 15 to 65, and total employment (red line).
From Aug 79 to June 83 there were no new net jobs. This was brutal when the boomers were all hitting 25 and looking for work.
1990 - 93 was a similar slowdown, I finished college right in the middle of it and f'd off to Japan.
The "full employment" economy Clinton handed Bush in 2001 was down a net 1 million jobs 10 years later, until recovering "full employment" just before COVID hit.
Biden's economy's been humming along, helped by $2T of extra Fed printing, but most of that has been taken by now.
Fuck this shit. And people wonder why so many of us don't vote.
Clearly rational arguments can't reach everyone.
posted by torokunai at 5:41 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
As for the Biden economy, https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1f4JL is an interesting graph showing (blue line) 74% of age 15 to 65, and total employment (red line).
From Aug 79 to June 83 there were no new net jobs. This was brutal when the boomers were all hitting 25 and looking for work.
1990 - 93 was a similar slowdown, I finished college right in the middle of it and f'd off to Japan.
The "full employment" economy Clinton handed Bush in 2001 was down a net 1 million jobs 10 years later, until recovering "full employment" just before COVID hit.
Biden's economy's been humming along, helped by $2T of extra Fed printing, but most of that has been taken by now.
Fuck this shit. And people wonder why so many of us don't vote.
Clearly rational arguments can't reach everyone.
posted by torokunai at 5:41 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
nobody is correct. The most recent news is that the economy grew 3.3% last quarter.
But have you considered the vibes? No? Well then.
Snark aside, the economy grew at 3.3%, unemployment is still near record lows, and inflation - while still above the 2% target - has been consistently falling towards it and should be at or near 2% by election day.
What isn't improving is housing costs. And that's putting a world of hurt on a lot of people. But it's not something in the control of Biden or any other President and rising housing costs is, like, the opposite of what you'd see in a tanking economy. Have people already forgotten 2008/2009? It wasn't even 15 years ago! That's what a tanking economy looks like!
posted by Justinian at 5:49 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
But have you considered the vibes? No? Well then.
Snark aside, the economy grew at 3.3%, unemployment is still near record lows, and inflation - while still above the 2% target - has been consistently falling towards it and should be at or near 2% by election day.
What isn't improving is housing costs. And that's putting a world of hurt on a lot of people. But it's not something in the control of Biden or any other President and rising housing costs is, like, the opposite of what you'd see in a tanking economy. Have people already forgotten 2008/2009? It wasn't even 15 years ago! That's what a tanking economy looks like!
posted by Justinian at 5:49 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
But have you considered the vibes? No? Well then.
If people are experiencing economic distress, and see people all around them suffering that distress, then quoting metrics isn't going to change their minds about how the economy is doing. Mocking them for relying on "vibes" or claiming they aren't rational doesn't much help, either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:11 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
If people are experiencing economic distress, and see people all around them suffering that distress, then quoting metrics isn't going to change their minds about how the economy is doing. Mocking them for relying on "vibes" or claiming they aren't rational doesn't much help, either.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:11 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
To whoever is modding this thread, you have my deepest, most sincere sympathy.
posted by KHAAAN! at 6:54 PM on January 31 [13 favorites]
posted by KHAAAN! at 6:54 PM on January 31 [13 favorites]
If people are experiencing economic distress, and see people all around them suffering that distress, then quoting metrics isn't going to change their minds about how the economy is doing.
People are human, of course, so I don't expect someone who is personally experiencing economic distress to recognize that the economy as a whole is humming along. But I do expect other people to be able to recognize that the economy is mostly humming along even though too many people are still experiencing economic distress.
posted by Justinian at 7:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
People are human, of course, so I don't expect someone who is personally experiencing economic distress to recognize that the economy as a whole is humming along. But I do expect other people to be able to recognize that the economy is mostly humming along even though too many people are still experiencing economic distress.
posted by Justinian at 7:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
It's literally the difference between anecdotes and data, right? Like we recognize that the planet's climate as a whole is warming up even though we sometimes get ridiculously cold snaps. Similarly, the economy as a whole is doing pretty well even though there are people who are having a difficult time.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
One thing about the macro is that it's really quintile-dependent.
If you're not renting, and have refi'd at the lows @ 3%, you're insulated from a large part (30%) of measured inflation. Bonus points if you enjoy Prop 13 protections on property tax rises.
Today's 6% rates are great if you're a saver, not so great if you need to borrow money.
My college costs are 30 years in the past so I'm not hit with that, either.
https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/emergency-savings-report
Shows only 1 quintile in this survey is sitting comfortable, while the lowest 2 quintiles are pretty precarious.
House Republicans are trying to figure out how to throw the country into a recession this year, but seem to lack the focus needed to pull it off.
posted by torokunai at 8:04 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
If you're not renting, and have refi'd at the lows @ 3%, you're insulated from a large part (30%) of measured inflation. Bonus points if you enjoy Prop 13 protections on property tax rises.
Today's 6% rates are great if you're a saver, not so great if you need to borrow money.
My college costs are 30 years in the past so I'm not hit with that, either.
https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/emergency-savings-report
Shows only 1 quintile in this survey is sitting comfortable, while the lowest 2 quintiles are pretty precarious.
House Republicans are trying to figure out how to throw the country into a recession this year, but seem to lack the focus needed to pull it off.
posted by torokunai at 8:04 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
This thread has gotten horribly hyperbolic. It's either you support Trump and all that he stands for or you don't care about genocide, without any middle ground. It's quite possible to be grievously upset about both, and have to decide according to the situation what you can bear. In my case, Trump's four years were profoundly corrosive for my mental health, and even though I'm not participating on Xitter any more I would greatly not want to go through round two of that. I don't want to concern anyone, but I really really really really really really really don't want that, not as long as I have to live in this national hell.
If you twist that into saying that I support genocide, especially when the true author of that genocide is someone who looks a fair bit like Trump himself, then you are not my friend.
posted by JHarris at 9:14 PM on January 31 [13 favorites]
If you twist that into saying that I support genocide, especially when the true author of that genocide is someone who looks a fair bit like Trump himself, then you are not my friend.
posted by JHarris at 9:14 PM on January 31 [13 favorites]
It seems pretty simple to me. Biden is helping a genocide. Users here are asking other users to fake enthusiasm for him and saying that anyone who doesn't is complicit in Trump winning.
Therefore it is being argued that if people are not enthusiastic about Biden and are not silent on genocide, they're somehow in a worse moral position than those who choose to ignore or deny the genocide for political convenience.
That's pretty icky.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:19 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Therefore it is being argued that if people are not enthusiastic about Biden and are not silent on genocide, they're somehow in a worse moral position than those who choose to ignore or deny the genocide for political convenience.
That's pretty icky.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:19 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
The line-go-up economy is made up bullshit nobody should have to care about versus he they personally and the people are around them are doing. Nobody gives a shit if billionaires gif to add a bunch of series today, that doesn’t benefit any human beings.
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
If we've decided to discard data entirely and just believe whatever we want how are we any different from the GOP on that score? We rightly look down on them for ignoring data when it doesn't suit them.
posted by Justinian at 11:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I was just showing up to say I was hoping to see the Howard Dean scream on the list because hearing the audio still makes me giggle and feel wistful for better times. . .
. . .but wow this turned into a circular firing squad about as quick as I probably should have expected.
posted by vitia at 11:47 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
. . .but wow this turned into a circular firing squad about as quick as I probably should have expected.
posted by vitia at 11:47 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
No, no, this is something else. You need some degree of cooperation to form a circular firing squad.
posted by Ashenmote at 3:28 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 3:28 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
If we've decided to discard data entirely and just believe whatever we want how are we any different from the GOP on that score? We rightly look down on them for ignoring data when it doesn't suit them.
In my industry everyone’s been worried about getting randomly laid off for about a year now, whilst numbers spiral ever upwards in what sure looks like a very poppable bubble. if your industry is doing better congratulations.
posted by Artw at 4:52 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
In my industry everyone’s been worried about getting randomly laid off for about a year now, whilst numbers spiral ever upwards in what sure looks like a very poppable bubble. if your industry is doing better congratulations.
posted by Artw at 4:52 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
If you're upper middle class and own a home and stocks, your personal economic well being is heavily influenced by things that are going great like the stock market and house prices.
If you're on a lower or fixed income and you don't own a home or stocks your personal economic well being is heavily influenced by things you spend a huge fraction of your income on like rent and food and health insurance (if you can still afford it) that have increased in price something like 20-50% in the last few years. Plus you've lost tax credits/handouts that really helped you out back when people gave a shit about Covid.
posted by zymil at 5:44 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
If you're on a lower or fixed income and you don't own a home or stocks your personal economic well being is heavily influenced by things you spend a huge fraction of your income on like rent and food and health insurance (if you can still afford it) that have increased in price something like 20-50% in the last few years. Plus you've lost tax credits/handouts that really helped you out back when people gave a shit about Covid.
posted by zymil at 5:44 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
No, no, this is something else. You need some degree of cooperation to form a circular firing squad.
Leftist were accused of being responsible for every loss the Democrats have suffered for decades, our moral qualms about supporting war criminals were mocked as pique, irrationality, and childishness, and it was claimed that our refusal to pretend Biden wasn't morally complicit in genocide was going to get us sent to death camps. And nobody objected to this but leftists.
Any hope for civility or cooperation was pretty much impossible at that point.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:15 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
Leftist were accused of being responsible for every loss the Democrats have suffered for decades, our moral qualms about supporting war criminals were mocked as pique, irrationality, and childishness, and it was claimed that our refusal to pretend Biden wasn't morally complicit in genocide was going to get us sent to death camps. And nobody objected to this but leftists.
Any hope for civility or cooperation was pretty much impossible at that point.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:15 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
The road to November is going to be rough as fuck. After probably rougher.
posted by Artw at 7:29 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:29 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
Maybe I should add that I'm not from the US. I'm not a carrier of 'cooperation; what the left owes to the center' ideas, I promise.
posted by Ashenmote at 10:09 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashenmote at 10:09 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I mean, we do need short term cooperation. But when we don't treat each other with respect, that is really difficult. I think respect doesn't come from ignoring our differences, but acknowledging that they are real and fundamental.
The left are not immature and unreliable progressive liberals. Progressives are not insufficiently ardent leftists. We do not belong to the same political project. We need to cooperate within the current system, but there are irreconcilable differences and we have real reasons to object to one another's leadership.
I think we're in a situation where defeating Trump needs to be our short term focus, but that doesn't mean I am going to pretend I think there is a massive moral difference between Biden and Trump, or that the Democratic party is a useful construct for achieving justice.
If you treat your short term allies as recalcitrant members of your team, they are unreliable and disloyal. If you acknowledge that they are rivals working along side you, they become people to win over and seek common ground with.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:21 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
The left are not immature and unreliable progressive liberals. Progressives are not insufficiently ardent leftists. We do not belong to the same political project. We need to cooperate within the current system, but there are irreconcilable differences and we have real reasons to object to one another's leadership.
I think we're in a situation where defeating Trump needs to be our short term focus, but that doesn't mean I am going to pretend I think there is a massive moral difference between Biden and Trump, or that the Democratic party is a useful construct for achieving justice.
If you treat your short term allies as recalcitrant members of your team, they are unreliable and disloyal. If you acknowledge that they are rivals working along side you, they become people to win over and seek common ground with.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:21 AM on February 1 [2 favorites]
one thing I'd like to see is the depersonalization of the Presidency.
This goes far, far beyond just "Biden" vs. "Trump".
There are two power blocs in this nation right now, and you've got to pick a side.
Back in '25 the KPD's 1,931,151-strong count said "f--- that" to supporting the center-left / center-right coalition candidate (from the Catholic Centre party) and voted for Thälmann, handing the Presidency to Hindenburg and eventually, as things really devolved in Weimar Germany in the late 20s and early 30s, the Chancellorship to Hitler.
Hitler's first order of business after the Nazi Machtergreifung was rounding up the Communists, and Thälmann eventually was executed in Buchenwald in 1944.
posted by torokunai at 10:47 AM on February 1 [5 favorites]
This goes far, far beyond just "Biden" vs. "Trump".
There are two power blocs in this nation right now, and you've got to pick a side.
Back in '25 the KPD's 1,931,151-strong count said "f--- that" to supporting the center-left / center-right coalition candidate (from the Catholic Centre party) and voted for Thälmann, handing the Presidency to Hindenburg and eventually, as things really devolved in Weimar Germany in the late 20s and early 30s, the Chancellorship to Hitler.
Hitler's first order of business after the Nazi Machtergreifung was rounding up the Communists, and Thälmann eventually was executed in Buchenwald in 1944.
posted by torokunai at 10:47 AM on February 1 [5 favorites]
Progressives are not insufficiently ardent leftists.
I literally thought progressives were just what people called leftists who were running for office, so we didn't scare off voters.
I've lived in America for 20 years and I still don't understand it.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:10 AM on February 1 [4 favorites]
I literally thought progressives were just what people called leftists who were running for office, so we didn't scare off voters.
I've lived in America for 20 years and I still don't understand it.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:10 AM on February 1 [4 favorites]
She wasn't sitting there useless, people, while not retiring! She was ruling on shit!
The complaint about RBG not retiring isn't that she spent that time not doing anything. It's that her health was already severely compromised and her refusal of requests from several people to retire and be replaced by Obama led to exactly the scenario those requests were attempting to avert. There was a choice that served her ego and a choice that served the values she spent her life working for, and she chose her ego. People are right to have opinions about that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:16 AM on February 1 [12 favorites]
The complaint about RBG not retiring isn't that she spent that time not doing anything. It's that her health was already severely compromised and her refusal of requests from several people to retire and be replaced by Obama led to exactly the scenario those requests were attempting to avert. There was a choice that served her ego and a choice that served the values she spent her life working for, and she chose her ego. People are right to have opinions about that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:16 AM on February 1 [12 favorites]
We'll never know the truth, but just wanted to throw in the ring that it's entirely possible RBG might have considered retiring, but Scalia died in early 2016 and she then saw the GOP vow to not even consider confirming anybody Obama put forth. I don't think it's entirely fair that she should have magically known the exact time at which the GOP would simply stop agreeing to consider anyone, and she herself knew even back in 2014 that the Dems were unlikely to get anyone as liberal as her through. And if the argument is "anyone more liberal than Amy Coney Barrett would have been worth it", well, anyone more liberal than Trump is worth it too.
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:30 PM on February 1
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:30 PM on February 1
RBG was being asked to retire in 2009.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:55 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:55 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
2011. Why Justices Ginsburg and Breyer should retire immediately (The New Republic, April 27, 2011; written by Randall Kennedy, a Harvard law professor and former clerk to Thurgood Marshall)
SCOTUSblog, Feb. 2009: "Justices tend to retire (a) in the run up to the summer recess (permitting confirmation hearings before the Court returns in the Fall), (b) in separate years (to avoid the complications of multiple Supreme Court confirmation hearings in a single summer), and (c) not in election years (to avoid the prospect that the confirmation will be obstructed in order to allow for a new President to make the appointment or a new Senate majority to obstruct or facilitate it). Put another way, Justices Stevens, Souter, and Ginsburg theoretically could all retire in the Fall of 2012, but their intuition will be to try to space things out. On that understanding, there are three summers available for retirements during this Presidency: 2009, 2010, and 2011."
Souter retired in June 2009 at age 69 [Sotomayor was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 6, 2009, by a 68–31 vote]
Stevens retired in June 2010 at age 90 [Kagan was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 5, 2010, by a vote of 63–37]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:51 PM on February 1 [5 favorites]
SCOTUSblog, Feb. 2009: "Justices tend to retire (a) in the run up to the summer recess (permitting confirmation hearings before the Court returns in the Fall), (b) in separate years (to avoid the complications of multiple Supreme Court confirmation hearings in a single summer), and (c) not in election years (to avoid the prospect that the confirmation will be obstructed in order to allow for a new President to make the appointment or a new Senate majority to obstruct or facilitate it). Put another way, Justices Stevens, Souter, and Ginsburg theoretically could all retire in the Fall of 2012, but their intuition will be to try to space things out. On that understanding, there are three summers available for retirements during this Presidency: 2009, 2010, and 2011."
Souter retired in June 2009 at age 69 [Sotomayor was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 6, 2009, by a 68–31 vote]
Stevens retired in June 2010 at age 90 [Kagan was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 5, 2010, by a vote of 63–37]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:51 PM on February 1 [5 favorites]
Souter retired in June 2009 at age 69 [Sotomayor was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 6, 2009, by a 68–31 vote]
Stevens retired in June 2010 at age 90 [Kagan was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 5, 2010, by a vote of 63–37]
Another point to make here is that the liberal Republicans on SCOTUS retired more strategically to the benefit of the liberal bloc than the liberal Democrats did.
posted by jonp72 at 9:18 AM on February 2
Stevens retired in June 2010 at age 90 [Kagan was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on August 5, 2010, by a vote of 63–37]
Another point to make here is that the liberal Republicans on SCOTUS retired more strategically to the benefit of the liberal bloc than the liberal Democrats did.
posted by jonp72 at 9:18 AM on February 2
Progressives are not insufficiently ardent leftists.
I literally thought progressives were just what people called leftists who were running for office, so we didn't scare off voters.
I've lived in America for 20 years and I still don't understand it.
The word "progressive" hasn't really had a consistent meaning in American history ever. Circa 1900, it would mean "technocrat who opposes the reactionaries but probably still has weird ideas on race and gender." In the 1912 election, it means a Teddy Roosevelt fanboy. And in the 1930s and early 1940s, it's more likely to be a euphemism for "somebody who probably agrees with the Communists and joins all the front groups but doesn't want to say that out loud."
posted by jonp72 at 9:25 AM on February 2 [3 favorites]
I literally thought progressives were just what people called leftists who were running for office, so we didn't scare off voters.
I've lived in America for 20 years and I still don't understand it.
The word "progressive" hasn't really had a consistent meaning in American history ever. Circa 1900, it would mean "technocrat who opposes the reactionaries but probably still has weird ideas on race and gender." In the 1912 election, it means a Teddy Roosevelt fanboy. And in the 1930s and early 1940s, it's more likely to be a euphemism for "somebody who probably agrees with the Communists and joins all the front groups but doesn't want to say that out loud."
posted by jonp72 at 9:25 AM on February 2 [3 favorites]
The US economy added 353,000 jobs in January, starting off 2024 with a bang
Note that I didn't write the headline and would not have phrased it that way so don't @ me. But the point is that "X Company lays off 5000" makes headlines while "Y Company hires 7000" doesn't, but there is a lot more of the latter happening than the former. Jobs were +350k last month and revised upwards by 125k for the previous months. And, importantly, wage growth was outpacing inflation.
posted by Justinian at 12:59 PM on February 2
Note that I didn't write the headline and would not have phrased it that way so don't @ me. But the point is that "X Company lays off 5000" makes headlines while "Y Company hires 7000" doesn't, but there is a lot more of the latter happening than the former. Jobs were +350k last month and revised upwards by 125k for the previous months. And, importantly, wage growth was outpacing inflation.
posted by Justinian at 12:59 PM on February 2
The Progressive who ran against Upton Sinclair in '34 for governor of California was a centrist (aka liberal) Republican.
So AFAICT it can be said that the Progressives of the Progressive Era were the liberal Republicans who have become today's mainstream centrist Democrats.
They didn't believe in the laissez faire of the small-government conservatism of the GOP's Taft wing, but were also reactionary toward the full-throated socialists of the day like Sinclair. Biden, the Clintons, Obama, Gore, Carter all fit well enough in that general lane.
posted by torokunai at 10:46 PM on February 2
So AFAICT it can be said that the Progressives of the Progressive Era were the liberal Republicans who have become today's mainstream centrist Democrats.
They didn't believe in the laissez faire of the small-government conservatism of the GOP's Taft wing, but were also reactionary toward the full-throated socialists of the day like Sinclair. Biden, the Clintons, Obama, Gore, Carter all fit well enough in that general lane.
posted by torokunai at 10:46 PM on February 2
>wage growth was outpacing inflation
Landlords: we'll see about that
posted by torokunai at 10:48 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
Landlords: we'll see about that
posted by torokunai at 10:48 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
...Stewing is the only real option, and would allow you to soften the meat and make the most of the higher than desirable fat content.
Then off to the rendering plant and let us never speak of this again.
posted by y2karl at 12:21 PM on February 13
Then off to the rendering plant and let us never speak of this again.
posted by y2karl at 12:21 PM on February 13
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posted by Saxon Kane at 3:17 PM on January 30 [19 favorites]