Orthodox Jews organize against their former high schools
June 22, 2016 1:04 PM Subscribe
Young Advocates For Fair Education, or YAFFED, is an NYC-based advocacy group of Orthodox Jewish youth and young adults who complain that their limited high school educations left them ill-equipped to support themselves as adults, and demand that the New York City and New York State education departments enforce laws on minimum school standards. Recently the ED of YAFFED co-wrote an op-ed, Why Do Jewish Leaders Keep Ignoring Ultra-Orthodox Education Crisis?
There's a film that came out a few years ago called Romeo and Juliet in Yiddish. As far as I can tell, it was self-financed and partially cowritten by ex-Hasids, and they seem to have written some of their life into the movie.
There's one scene that really stood out for me. I don't know if it was genuinely autobiographical, but it sure felt that way. One of the ex-Hasids talks about going to Canada when he was younger and not bringing a passport, because you didn't need it back then. But when he tried to cross back, the border guards didn't believe he was American, because he had a Hasid accent and spoke Yiddish and was halting in English. They asked him his birth month, and he told them, and then they asked him to spell it, and he couldn't, because he only new how to spell it using Hebrew characters.
This story made me think of that scene.
posted by maxsparber at 1:38 PM on June 22, 2016 [20 favorites]
There's one scene that really stood out for me. I don't know if it was genuinely autobiographical, but it sure felt that way. One of the ex-Hasids talks about going to Canada when he was younger and not bringing a passport, because you didn't need it back then. But when he tried to cross back, the border guards didn't believe he was American, because he had a Hasid accent and spoke Yiddish and was halting in English. They asked him his birth month, and he told them, and then they asked him to spell it, and he couldn't, because he only new how to spell it using Hebrew characters.
This story made me think of that scene.
posted by maxsparber at 1:38 PM on June 22, 2016 [20 favorites]
Major Jewish leaders and organizations should prioritize opportunities for Haredim — especially the Hasidic — to learn English and gain work skills. This means investing in the community’s primary and secondary schools and lobbying for change. Practical steps could include subsidizing secular teachers, upgrading facilities and setting aside more time for math, science and language. Leaders should press politicians to enforce state laws on the minimum standards required of primary and secondary schools. New programs could help students apply to college after studying in yeshivas, or provide trade skills in a dedicated facility that allows them to maintain their current lifestyles.
The Haredi lifestyle and religious observance must be respected. These Jews are carrying on a long tradition, living lives with much to admire, and staying firm in their beliefs. The growth of the community is a real blessing; it will help ensure that the American Jewish Diaspora continues to be relevant in the face of demographic changes elsewhere.
As someone who has lived near the communities in Williamsburg and Borough Park, this seems like an incredibly contradictory set of interests. I can't imagine how taking steps to give students greater academic proficiency (as defined by mainstream culture) would not have the effect of at least gradually eliminating their community as it currently exists.
I'd be interested to see whether/the extent to which English (or other?) literacy rates, as well as math skill have declined in the community over the past couple of decades.
On another note, if I had to guess, I would say that well-educated members of the current community who are successful in business with outsiders and still remain in the community and maintain its values don't present a sustainable example. If there were a critical mass of such people, I would predict rapid assimilation into the surrounding communities.
Finally, as far as the ethical status of this, it's an interesting case. One solution might be that denial of some form of education is unethical to the extent that what is being denied is indeed what those who are being denied treat as education. It's certainly possible for there to be different standards of what constitutes an education, and for instances of each to treat the other as invalid, from its perspective.
posted by patrickdbyers at 1:40 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Haredi lifestyle and religious observance must be respected. These Jews are carrying on a long tradition, living lives with much to admire, and staying firm in their beliefs. The growth of the community is a real blessing; it will help ensure that the American Jewish Diaspora continues to be relevant in the face of demographic changes elsewhere.
As someone who has lived near the communities in Williamsburg and Borough Park, this seems like an incredibly contradictory set of interests. I can't imagine how taking steps to give students greater academic proficiency (as defined by mainstream culture) would not have the effect of at least gradually eliminating their community as it currently exists.
I'd be interested to see whether/the extent to which English (or other?) literacy rates, as well as math skill have declined in the community over the past couple of decades.
On another note, if I had to guess, I would say that well-educated members of the current community who are successful in business with outsiders and still remain in the community and maintain its values don't present a sustainable example. If there were a critical mass of such people, I would predict rapid assimilation into the surrounding communities.
Finally, as far as the ethical status of this, it's an interesting case. One solution might be that denial of some form of education is unethical to the extent that what is being denied is indeed what those who are being denied treat as education. It's certainly possible for there to be different standards of what constitutes an education, and for instances of each to treat the other as invalid, from its perspective.
posted by patrickdbyers at 1:40 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Douglas, however, objected that a child’s viewpoint should have been considered, since “truncated” schooling limits options so “his entire life may be stunted and deformed.”
At what point does religious freedom of the parents start to damage the future well being and right to thrive of the child? The community doesn't have to be secular, but surely it should prioritize adults that can politically and economically participate in greater society, for its own survival, if nothing else.
posted by bonehead at 2:01 PM on June 22, 2016 [13 favorites]
At what point does religious freedom of the parents start to damage the future well being and right to thrive of the child? The community doesn't have to be secular, but surely it should prioritize adults that can politically and economically participate in greater society, for its own survival, if nothing else.
posted by bonehead at 2:01 PM on June 22, 2016 [13 favorites]
Many religious communities start by making a society that its members wouldn't dream of leaving. Maintaining this and letting it evolve, however, takes care, skill and kindness. It's a bunch easier to maintain a society that its members couldn't dream of leaving. This makes even greater sense if your group believes that greater society has “fallen”, and limiting access to education may be the only way to sustain your worldview.
posted by scruss at 2:06 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by scruss at 2:06 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
On another note, if I had to guess, I would say that well-educated members of the current community who are successful in business with outsiders and still remain in the community and maintain its values don't present a sustainable example. If there were a critical mass of such people, I would predict rapid assimilation into the surrounding communities.
The fun(?) thing is that a degree of assimilation, including linguistic assimilation, does happen, but it's gendered, at least in some groups. This book goes into a lot more detail, but TL;DR in some cases, it's more acceptable for women to have competency in English and the wider culture in general (so they can get jobs and provide for their families); for men, not having that competency is more valued.
At least in the communities the author was studying, this led to things like Modern Orthodox women teaching "English" subjects in the girls schools (showing the girls that it's acceptable to be a female Jew, and do that sort of thing), but the boys had non-Jewish teachers (because they didn't want to send the message that it was OK to be Jewish and to, e.g., be a math teacher).
posted by damayanti at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2016 [13 favorites]
The fun(?) thing is that a degree of assimilation, including linguistic assimilation, does happen, but it's gendered, at least in some groups. This book goes into a lot more detail, but TL;DR in some cases, it's more acceptable for women to have competency in English and the wider culture in general (so they can get jobs and provide for their families); for men, not having that competency is more valued.
At least in the communities the author was studying, this led to things like Modern Orthodox women teaching "English" subjects in the girls schools (showing the girls that it's acceptable to be a female Jew, and do that sort of thing), but the boys had non-Jewish teachers (because they didn't want to send the message that it was OK to be Jewish and to, e.g., be a math teacher).
posted by damayanti at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yeah, this is an issue of considerable longstanding, not helped by the tradition that the man's primary job is to study Torah. (This is why the links focus on men's education: depending on the sect, women may wind up being the primary breadwinners and therefore have to be educated accordingly, although not extensively or to college level.) As scruss says, the limited educational program is by design, as it makes not only exit, but any kind of integration, effectively impossible. The Lubavitchers, who are far less isolationist than sects like the Satmar, manage to keep themselves a cohesive community despite speaking English (although many also know Yiddish), going to college (both men and women), watching baseball, and even seeing the occasional Disney movie. But I suspect that the haredim think the Lubavitchers are hopelessly assimilated with the majority culture.
Not a Lubavitcher, but my sister and multiple relatives (including a couple of rabbis) are.
posted by thomas j wise at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2016 [10 favorites]
Not a Lubavitcher, but my sister and multiple relatives (including a couple of rabbis) are.
posted by thomas j wise at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2016 [10 favorites]
Whoops, crossed paths with damayanti there.
posted by thomas j wise at 2:13 PM on June 22, 2016
posted by thomas j wise at 2:13 PM on June 22, 2016
What's noteworthy about this movement is that it is largely being driven from within. A lot of Yaffed's membership are Hasidic and Hareidi people who don't have a problem with the strictness of the religion, don't have a problem with the religious philosophy -- they just don't want it stopping kids (including their own kids) from getting a good education. It's still a painfully uphill battle. And it doesn't help that the community is able to get away with this on such a large scale because they know they can rely on the welfare system (and often welfare abuse). Back in Eastern Europe only a minuscule percentage of Jewish men had the luxury of being able to learn all day and not work - only the top students would be considered worthy. Here and in Israel there's no danger of starving to death - ordinary poverty is not seen as a big enough deterrent, so why not learn all day instead of putting in real work, if you can get away with it? Enforcing the educational standards that should already exist won't change that mindset all that much, but at least it's a start. At least the kids who 'graduate' aren't going out in the world already crippled.
By and large, the Amish educational system is the same if not worse (school stops for Amish kids at eighth grade, textbooks are far out of date to avoid modern ideas - and it's worth noting that the Supreme Court case this whole thing revolves around essentially protected the Amish to do things this way), but so far I haven't seen anything like the same pushback. Maybe because they still have enough farming jobs to turn to that it isn't the economic crisis the UO community is facing?
posted by Mchelly at 2:33 PM on June 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
By and large, the Amish educational system is the same if not worse (school stops for Amish kids at eighth grade, textbooks are far out of date to avoid modern ideas - and it's worth noting that the Supreme Court case this whole thing revolves around essentially protected the Amish to do things this way), but so far I haven't seen anything like the same pushback. Maybe because they still have enough farming jobs to turn to that it isn't the economic crisis the UO community is facing?
posted by Mchelly at 2:33 PM on June 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
Many youth in this community, especially the Hasidim, are ill prepared for employment and likely to struggle with poverty...these students can be well educated in religious studies but unprepared to find jobs in the workforce. They often do not even speak proper English because of their lack of exposure to it (Yiddish predominates within the community).
Anti-semitism is already on the rise. The paranoia around Halal food (Sharia law!!) and immigrants who "refuse to assimilate" could very easily be turned on the Jewish community and help create the next Trump. So the ramifications of this situation go way beyond the Hasidic community.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anti-semitism is already on the rise. The paranoia around Halal food (Sharia law!!) and immigrants who "refuse to assimilate" could very easily be turned on the Jewish community and help create the next Trump. So the ramifications of this situation go way beyond the Hasidic community.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
By and large, the Amish educational system is the same if not worse (school stops for Amish kids at eighth grade, textbooks are far out of date to avoid modern ideas - and it's worth noting that the Supreme Court case this whole thing revolves around essentially protected the Amish to do things this way), but so far I haven't seen anything like the same pushback. Maybe because they still have enough farming jobs to turn to that it isn't the economic crisis the UO community is facing?
The second article in the OP talks about this a bit:
If YAFFED’s effort rouses officialdom to action, this could create a major church-state conflict (or in this case yeshiva-state) under the Constitution. News coverage has not highlighted the U.S. Supreme Court’s closely parallel religious liberty case in 1972, Wisconsin v. Yoder. Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote for the six-member majority while liberal Justice William O. Douglas dissented “in part.” (Two justices did not participate.)
The Old Order Amish defendants in that case clearly violated Wisconsin’s compulsory high school attendance law by withdrawing their children after the eighth grade. Also beyond dispute was that they did this due to their belief that youths must prepare for careers on insular family farms and shun outside competitiveness and worldliness. Testimony portrayed what the court called “a very real threat” that could undermine the survival of “a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society.”
Thus the Supreme Court gave priority to devout parents’ religious freedom claims over against the state’s education requirement. Douglas, however, objected that a child’s viewpoint should have been considered, since “truncated” schooling limits options so “his entire life may be stunted and deformed.”
Does such reasoning about farming sects apply to similarly close-knit andtradition-bound Haredim living in cities who need 21st Century jobs?
Have the yeshiva authorities considered use of the Yoder ruling in future challenges? What do legal analysts think?
Keep watch, reporters, there is a story here.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:14 PM on June 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
The second article in the OP talks about this a bit:
If YAFFED’s effort rouses officialdom to action, this could create a major church-state conflict (or in this case yeshiva-state) under the Constitution. News coverage has not highlighted the U.S. Supreme Court’s closely parallel religious liberty case in 1972, Wisconsin v. Yoder. Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote for the six-member majority while liberal Justice William O. Douglas dissented “in part.” (Two justices did not participate.)
The Old Order Amish defendants in that case clearly violated Wisconsin’s compulsory high school attendance law by withdrawing their children after the eighth grade. Also beyond dispute was that they did this due to their belief that youths must prepare for careers on insular family farms and shun outside competitiveness and worldliness. Testimony portrayed what the court called “a very real threat” that could undermine the survival of “a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society.”
Thus the Supreme Court gave priority to devout parents’ religious freedom claims over against the state’s education requirement. Douglas, however, objected that a child’s viewpoint should have been considered, since “truncated” schooling limits options so “his entire life may be stunted and deformed.”
Does such reasoning about farming sects apply to similarly close-knit andtradition-bound Haredim living in cities who need 21st Century jobs?
Have the yeshiva authorities considered use of the Yoder ruling in future challenges? What do legal analysts think?
Keep watch, reporters, there is a story here.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:14 PM on June 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Having grown up in the Evangelical homeschooling community, when I lived in Brooklyn it was kind of surreal to encounter a group of people that wasn't Evangelical but otherwise has so much in common in terms of how many young people end up poorly prepared to succeed in the world. I feel the same way about the Amish too. Interestingly the aforementioned Amish Wisconsin V. Yoder case really strengthened the homeschooling movement.
But I'm not really sure of a way to balance phobia of minority religions with children's rights, so for myself I've donated to groups that advocate for reform on the inside and also help assist people whose futures have been damaged by lack of education as children. But sometimes it's so depressing. There is one woman who is in an ex-Evangelical homeschoolers group I'm in who had an abusive arranged marriage (Evangelical Christianity is pretty variable and includes some pretty scary cults) and escaped, but is disabled and has little education so is really struggling. But honestly, there are people who don't come from religious backgrounds who are in the same place - our society's lack of safety net makes these situations so much more dire.
posted by melissam at 3:19 PM on June 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
But I'm not really sure of a way to balance phobia of minority religions with children's rights, so for myself I've donated to groups that advocate for reform on the inside and also help assist people whose futures have been damaged by lack of education as children. But sometimes it's so depressing. There is one woman who is in an ex-Evangelical homeschoolers group I'm in who had an abusive arranged marriage (Evangelical Christianity is pretty variable and includes some pretty scary cults) and escaped, but is disabled and has little education so is really struggling. But honestly, there are people who don't come from religious backgrounds who are in the same place - our society's lack of safety net makes these situations so much more dire.
posted by melissam at 3:19 PM on June 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, I saw that, but the calling the Amish "a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society" in 1972 doesn't feel like facts on the ground to me for 2016. I grew up in Lancaster County and so many of the Amish farms I remember from growing up are now shopping centers and subdivisions - and the Amish also have large families. Is it possible they're still all successfully going into farming and cabinet-making? Or is it that they're not in urban centers, so the problems they're facing are more easily hidden?
posted by Mchelly at 3:20 PM on June 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 3:20 PM on June 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's almost as if religious fundamentalism of any variety seeks to stifle intellectual engagement with the outside world. I'm shocked!
posted by thewalrus at 3:27 PM on June 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thewalrus at 3:27 PM on June 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
We're facing similar issues in Montreal, which has a large ultra orthodox community.
posted by bluefrog at 3:49 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bluefrog at 3:49 PM on June 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Many religious communities start by making a society that its members wouldn't dream of leaving.
Many cults start that way too.
posted by stevis23 at 3:52 PM on June 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many cults start that way too.
posted by stevis23 at 3:52 PM on June 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
The fun(?) thing is that a degree of assimilation, including linguistic assimilation, does happen, but it's gendered, at least in some groups. This book goes into a lot more detail, but TL;DR in some cases, it's more acceptable for women to have competency in English and the wider culture in general (so they can get jobs and provide for their families); for men, not having that competency is more valued.
Montreal has had a Hasidic city councillor for many years now. Not surprisingly (perhaps), it's a woman.
posted by bluefrog at 4:00 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Montreal has had a Hasidic city councillor for many years now. Not surprisingly (perhaps), it's a woman.
posted by bluefrog at 4:00 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Amish have had some problems adapting to the rising costs of farmland, but moving into construction has proved to be a workable solution for many. In the Elkhart/Lagrange, IN, settlement, many men work in RV manufacturing.
I think there are some significant differences here. The Amish are expected to have an eighth-grade education, and they seek jobs compatible with that education level. At the same time, Amish schools in mainstream and liberal communities generally do a good job of teaching English and math. For that matter, 50% of Amish children in northern IN attend public school, and a minority pursue GEDs. Amish people seek less education than the US standard, but the education is not substandard.
posted by epj at 4:36 PM on June 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think there are some significant differences here. The Amish are expected to have an eighth-grade education, and they seek jobs compatible with that education level. At the same time, Amish schools in mainstream and liberal communities generally do a good job of teaching English and math. For that matter, 50% of Amish children in northern IN attend public school, and a minority pursue GEDs. Amish people seek less education than the US standard, but the education is not substandard.
posted by epj at 4:36 PM on June 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
I heard only part of a segment on npr this afternoon about how many states are passing legislation to forbid religious laws or regulations from being considered in legal proceedings. The goal of these legislators is to stop "sharia law from becoming the law of America", but it seems to me that this same legislation could be used against the Amish and the Orthodox Jews. I suppose it all depends on if these new laws stand up to Supreme court adjudication.
That said, I find it problematic that some internal societies are allowed to flaunt secular law when it clearly causes damage to the members being able to interact with the overall society, but I say that with very little knowledge of those communities because I wouldn't be welcomed into them to experience their lives.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:25 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said, I find it problematic that some internal societies are allowed to flaunt secular law when it clearly causes damage to the members being able to interact with the overall society, but I say that with very little knowledge of those communities because I wouldn't be welcomed into them to experience their lives.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:25 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
many states are passing legislation to forbid religious laws or regulations from being considered in legal proceedings.
No more "swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God" on the bible?
posted by jeather at 7:56 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
No more "swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God" on the bible?
posted by jeather at 7:56 PM on June 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Yeah, this is an issue of considerable longstanding, not helped by the tradition that the man's primary job is to study Torah."
It's so curious and unusual to have a non-monastic-type community where the goal is for ALL adult men to spend all their time studying religious texts to the exclusion of other work. I'm trying to think of other world-historical examples and really not coming up with anything that isn't at least quasi-monastic or based on a caste system.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:08 PM on June 22, 2016
It's so curious and unusual to have a non-monastic-type community where the goal is for ALL adult men to spend all their time studying religious texts to the exclusion of other work. I'm trying to think of other world-historical examples and really not coming up with anything that isn't at least quasi-monastic or based on a caste system.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:08 PM on June 22, 2016
I remember hearing that contemporary nomadic Roma are characterized (stereotyped) as discouraging formal education.
posted by rhizome at 9:59 PM on June 22, 2016
posted by rhizome at 9:59 PM on June 22, 2016
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