Daylight Saving Time for everrrrrr
March 15, 2022 12:11 PM Subscribe
The Senate has unanimously passed a resolution to make DST permanent. In a bill co-sponsored by (my man!) Sheldon Whitehouse of RI and Marco Rubio of FL, Daylight Saving Time would become permanent. In other words, we just "sprang forward" and will never "fall back" again.
This is change sought by medical groups and populist lawmakers, though individual vary on whether they prefer Standard Time or DST.
Many state have attempted to make this change on their own recently: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/04/daylight-saving-time-legislation-fall-back/6233980001/
And of course Arizona, Indiana, and other areas already maintain their own bubbles of local time.
Many state have attempted to make this change on their own recently: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/04/daylight-saving-time-legislation-fall-back/6233980001/
And of course Arizona, Indiana, and other areas already maintain their own bubbles of local time.
What if I like "springing forward"? Can we just do that every year?
/s
posted by meowzilla at 12:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
/s
posted by meowzilla at 12:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Doesn't permanent DST mean you'll be colder on winter mornings? The day starts an hour earlier so you're closer to those overnight lows.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:18 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:18 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
SAY WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
I swear to god I will take back everything I've ever said about the senate if they make just one good thing happen one time *
I noticed in the zeitgeist a strong uptick of "Seriously though, WHY ARE WE STILL DOING THIS" this year more so than other years which was more like quiet resignation. What else can we get pissed off enough to finally get rid of?
* I won't
posted by bleep at 12:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [24 favorites]
I swear to god I will take back everything I've ever said about the senate if they make just one good thing happen one time *
I noticed in the zeitgeist a strong uptick of "Seriously though, WHY ARE WE STILL DOING THIS" this year more so than other years which was more like quiet resignation. What else can we get pissed off enough to finally get rid of?
* I won't
posted by bleep at 12:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [24 favorites]
5pm darkness sucks, but doesn't this mean that it won't get light out until 8am or so during much of winter (in many parts of the country)?
I dunno, I definitely support not switching the clocks back and forth, maybe we could start being less rigid about when school and work starts.
posted by skewed at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [48 favorites]
I dunno, I definitely support not switching the clocks back and forth, maybe we could start being less rigid about when school and work starts.
posted by skewed at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [48 favorites]
I just want random extra hours to sleep now and then
posted by trig at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by trig at 12:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
Do pennies next
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 12:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [101 favorites]
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 12:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [101 favorites]
maybe we could start being less rigid about when school and work starts.
I wish, but that's even less likely to change than DST.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I wish, but that's even less likely to change than DST.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm also just amazed that anything this big, even if it requires zero spending, can get done in our political climate. There are so many things we should get around to doing, but we don't because no one wants to spend their limited political capital on something that 80% of people will mildly support, but 20% of people will flip-the-fuck-out over.
posted by skewed at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by skewed at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
SQUEE!
posted by Melismata at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sounds like we would still fall back and spring ahead one last time:
Senator Marco Rubio said after input from airlines and broadcasters that supporters agreed that the change would not take place until November 2023.posted by steveminutillo at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
I was gonna say, that's a LOT LOT LOT of software that needs modification, some of it incredibly old. Even late '23 seems too soon. I love this, but my inner developer and project manager both shit their theoretical pants.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:26 PM on March 15, 2022 [41 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 12:26 PM on March 15, 2022 [41 favorites]
The EU was supposed to end DST last year, but never got around to the bureaucracy of implementing the change due to covid. And the UK now has no plans to go through with dropping DST because Brexit.
Maybe the US dropping DST will actually get this finalized over here.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:26 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Maybe the US dropping DST will actually get this finalized over here.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:26 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
In theory it should be a pretty easy software change. You already have to deal with time zones, and changes over time. I don't think any financial packages calculate interest per hour
posted by pwnguin at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Marco Rubio being on board with this adds a special case to the adage: a stopped clock can sometimes be right exactly once.
posted by zippy at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [48 favorites]
posted by zippy at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [48 favorites]
The USA tried this very same thing back in the early '70s but I don't think it lasted beyond a year. Turns out, people don't want it to be dark out until 9:00 AM in the winter. I say whatevs, just make lemonaid by listening to Bauhaus at that time.
posted by NoMich at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by NoMich at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
As someone who 1) works night shifts and 2) has young children I say bring it the fuck on
posted by saturday_morning at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm also just amazed that anything this big, even if it requires zero spending, can get done in our political climate.
Thanks, Putin!
posted by zippy at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Thanks, Putin!
posted by zippy at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Next I hear they'll do something about how bad envelope glue tastes.
posted by parmanparman at 12:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by parmanparman at 12:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
I was gonna say, that's a LOT LOT LOT of software that needs modification, some of it incredibly old. Even late '23 seems too soon. I love this, but my inner developer and project manager both shit their theoretical pants.
Nah. Everybody had to update their DST rules when half of Arizona switched in 2010~whatever, so that code is now configurable.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
Nah. Everybody had to update their DST rules when half of Arizona switched in 2010~whatever, so that code is now configurable.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
that's a LOT LOT LOT of software that needs modification, some of it incredibly oldIn the US, DST rules were changed in 2007. Any software older than that that doesn't use the system date is already wrong and the users are probably already used to a month in the spring and fall when the time isn't right; having a few extra months of wrongness, or doing whatever they do to work around it, would probably be no big deal to them.
posted by Hatashran at 12:34 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
And of course Arizona, Indiana, and other areas already maintain their own bubbles of local time.
Arizona doesn't maintain its own "bubble of local time," it stays on Mountain Standard Time year round. The Navajo Nation switches to DST because parts of it are located in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico and they prefer to have the entire reservation on the same time.
Everybody had to update their DST rules when half of Arizona switched in 2010
If this refers to the Navajo Nation, it is not "half of Arizona." More like a quarter. The state switched to permanent MST in 1968.
posted by fuse theorem at 12:34 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Arizona doesn't maintain its own "bubble of local time," it stays on Mountain Standard Time year round. The Navajo Nation switches to DST because parts of it are located in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico and they prefer to have the entire reservation on the same time.
Everybody had to update their DST rules when half of Arizona switched in 2010
If this refers to the Navajo Nation, it is not "half of Arizona." More like a quarter. The state switched to permanent MST in 1968.
posted by fuse theorem at 12:34 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Some neat maps of the effect of different alternatives on "reasonable" sunrise and sunset times. If daylight savings is year round, we're gonna be spending our mornings in the dark quite a bit more (but of course enjoying the light in the afternoon/evenings).
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
For some reason this year's Spring Forward has been awful, awful, awful, much worse than my memory of past years. What I would really prefer is if we could find a way to only Fall Back, forever and ever.
posted by btfreek at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by btfreek at 12:36 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Here's a list of DST updates that Microsoft has released for Office.
It's actually pretty common.
posted by meowzilla at 12:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's actually pretty common.
posted by meowzilla at 12:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
"5pm darkness sucks, but doesn't this mean that it won't get light out until 8am or so during much of winter (in many parts of the country)?"
Even later, and even even later depending on where you are within your time. I'm in the middle of my time zone, and on Dec. 23, the sunrise is at about 7:45. So on "permanent daylight savings time" it won't be light until almost 9. I'm not sure how that's any better than being dark at 4:30. I have a feeling that a lot of people (not necessarily those in this thread) think that we're somehow actually manipulating time and creating longer days during DST, and thus, we'll have "longer days" all year round when it's permanent.
posted by jonathanhughes at 12:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
Even later, and even even later depending on where you are within your time. I'm in the middle of my time zone, and on Dec. 23, the sunrise is at about 7:45. So on "permanent daylight savings time" it won't be light until almost 9. I'm not sure how that's any better than being dark at 4:30. I have a feeling that a lot of people (not necessarily those in this thread) think that we're somehow actually manipulating time and creating longer days during DST, and thus, we'll have "longer days" all year round when it's permanent.
posted by jonathanhughes at 12:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
5pm darkness sucks, but doesn't this mean that it won't get light out until 8am or so during much of winter (in many parts of the country)
Maybe we can agree to compromise on moving everything 30 minutes ahead and leaving it there? /joke.but.not.entirely
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
Maybe we can agree to compromise on moving everything 30 minutes ahead and leaving it there? /joke.but.not.entirely
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
Okay, hear me out. I need a map, starting at the Prime Meridian, which has longitude lines starting at 7.5 and -7.5 degrees (do not draw the meridian line), and every 15 degrees after. Color those bands up and down straight. Now, look for any country that has 80% of itself in one of those bands, and adjust the lines slightly so that the whole country is in a single band. If a country is so large it is split over two or more bands, draw the new time delineation lines straight through. There, that's your new time zone now. No more DST, no more +14 and -13 timezones. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit.
Also, International Fixed calendar please.
posted by deezil at 12:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, International Fixed calendar please.
posted by deezil at 12:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's pretty common to have to do timezone adjustments but I was connected to an IT department during the changes when the USA DST started/ended changed back in the 00s. It was a pain and took multiple person-weeks for a company of ~200 people. I doubt things will be much easier this time.
But I agree that we should stop changing the clocks twice a year but settling on standard time is the answer. Do things earlier in the day if you care about "more" light in the evening but let's keep noon vaguely close to solar noon, please.
posted by skynxnex at 12:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
But I agree that we should stop changing the clocks twice a year but settling on standard time is the answer. Do things earlier in the day if you care about "more" light in the evening but let's keep noon vaguely close to solar noon, please.
posted by skynxnex at 12:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
I remember in '07, no one in my office had any confidence that the calendaring system on anyone's computer was updated or not, so people just started arriving one hour early to all meetings "just in case".
posted by meowzilla at 12:48 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:48 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ughhh i hate this so bad. SO BAD. Like, this is going to be what my therapy appointment today is about, bad. Stupid evil day-star.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Do things earlier in the day if you care about "more" light in the evening
Not necessarily an option if places are closed at the crack of dawn or the activities you need light to do aren't available then. Or more likely, that you're commuting during that time anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not necessarily an option if places are closed at the crack of dawn or the activities you need light to do aren't available then. Or more likely, that you're commuting during that time anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
> Some neat maps of the effect of different alternatives on "reasonable" sunrise and sunset times.
Okay, yes, but permanent DST would be better where I live.
posted by zeptoweasel at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Okay, yes, but permanent DST would be better where I live.
posted by zeptoweasel at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I will be walking my kids to school in the dark all winter. Thanks.
posted by phooky at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by phooky at 12:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think the main link is to the wrong article relative to the link text (it's an article about congress discussing this but from 3/9, the senate passed this today). Here's one along similar lines as the link text, not sure if there's better ones: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-approves-bill-that-would-make-daylight-savings-time-permanent-2023-2022-03-15/.
Anyways, I was actually reading the thing because I wanted to know where exactly this bill was. For anyone else wondering: the answer is that it still needs to go through the house, and has already been discussed in committee there.
posted by advil at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anyways, I was actually reading the thing because I wanted to know where exactly this bill was. For anyone else wondering: the answer is that it still needs to go through the house, and has already been discussed in committee there.
posted by advil at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
> Not necessarily an option if places are closed at the crack of dawn or the activities you need light to do aren't available then.
Well, adjusting your schedule during DST in the winter to avoid waking up in the pitch black is equally hard. I think it is a matter of personal reference, your natural sleep schedules, and what activities you and your social circle do. But given I haven't seen any reason why DST in midwinter is either "objectively" better than standard time in the midsummer, nor why it's enough better for people with that preference, I'd rather stick closer to solar time. Maybe there are reasons I haven't seen.
posted by skynxnex at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Well, adjusting your schedule during DST in the winter to avoid waking up in the pitch black is equally hard. I think it is a matter of personal reference, your natural sleep schedules, and what activities you and your social circle do. But given I haven't seen any reason why DST in midwinter is either "objectively" better than standard time in the midsummer, nor why it's enough better for people with that preference, I'd rather stick closer to solar time. Maybe there are reasons I haven't seen.
posted by skynxnex at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't particularly care whether we switch to permanent DST or permanent Standard Time, but I'm all for picking one and sticking with it.
posted by tclark at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by tclark at 12:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
JUST SWITCH TO SWATCH INTERNET TIME AND BE DONE WITH IT
posted by phooky at 12:59 PM on March 15, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by phooky at 12:59 PM on March 15, 2022 [27 favorites]
And of course Arizona, Indiana, and other areas already maintain their own bubbles of local time.
Prior to 2005, Indiana did not observe DST and so did not change clocks (in effect switching from Eastern to Central time and vice-versa). I was fine with this :-) Then the governor forced through joining the DST regime required the new chore of resetting all clocks not in digital devices linked to the web. I call this the Mitch Daniels Time Tax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana
posted by lathrop at 1:00 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Prior to 2005, Indiana did not observe DST and so did not change clocks (in effect switching from Eastern to Central time and vice-versa). I was fine with this :-) Then the governor forced through joining the DST regime required the new chore of resetting all clocks not in digital devices linked to the web. I call this the Mitch Daniels Time Tax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana
posted by lathrop at 1:00 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
jonathanhughes: I have a feeling that a lot of people (not necessarily those in this thread) think that we're somehow actually manipulating time and creating longer days during DST, and thus, we'll have "longer days" all year round when it's permanent.My wife, who has a white-collar job at a large financial institution, who is surrounded in her organization by CPAs, MBAs, lawyers, etc., swears to me that one of her highly educated and well-paid co-workers thought DST was implemented by altering the rotation of the Earth on its axis. That "springing forward" implied the Earth had somehow been made to accomplish an extra 1/24th of a complete rotation over that particular night. This came out incidentally, accidentally, because the co-worker was marveling that this was possible.
I want to believe that my wife's co-worker was trolling her, and that my wife fell for it. My wife is convinced this was not the case. I'm not sure what to think.
posted by Western Infidels at 1:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [36 favorites]
Those of us old enough know that this was done already, by President Richard Nixon as a way to supposedly help the economy and reduce energy consumption.
It was pretty much a disaster and was soon cancelled. What happens in winter is that kids go to school in complete darkness. There were news articles about kids getting run over by cars. Some people have later said that the news articles were overblown and largely false. But my experience matched the articles. I was a kid walking to school when this law was passed, and let me tell you, walking to school in complete darkness is very scary and definitely lead to some close calls with cars.
Of course nowdays kids don't walk to school as much so maybe it isn't such a big deal.
If people don't like the time change, the better approach is to just cancel DST altogether.
posted by eye of newt at 1:02 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
It was pretty much a disaster and was soon cancelled. What happens in winter is that kids go to school in complete darkness. There were news articles about kids getting run over by cars. Some people have later said that the news articles were overblown and largely false. But my experience matched the articles. I was a kid walking to school when this law was passed, and let me tell you, walking to school in complete darkness is very scary and definitely lead to some close calls with cars.
Of course nowdays kids don't walk to school as much so maybe it isn't such a big deal.
If people don't like the time change, the better approach is to just cancel DST altogether.
posted by eye of newt at 1:02 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
The US Tried Permanent Daylight Saving Time in the ’70s. People Hated It.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:04 PM on March 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:04 PM on March 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Columnists everywhere trying to figure out how to work up "millennials just killed time" into an article.
posted by fight or flight at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
Yeah, I always end up looking at timeanddate.com for sunrise and sunset times on the solstices. Where I live, that means a 4:11am sunrise and 7:30pm sunset in June if we don't spring forward and an 8:21am sunrise and a 5:22pm sunset in December if we didn't fall back. Of the _two_ I'd prefer the latter, but I'd probably acclimate either way at my age.
But that's living at 43N, we don't get a whole lot of sun in the winter to begin with.
posted by Kyol at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
But that's living at 43N, we don't get a whole lot of sun in the winter to begin with.
posted by Kyol at 1:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
If we switched to permanent Standard time, it would get darker an hour earlier in the summer and that would not go over well in most places.
posted by Melismata at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh rad, can we do the metric system next?
posted by furnace.heart at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by furnace.heart at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [34 favorites]
>In theory it should be a pretty easy software change.
This seems like the appropriate place to drop in a link to Falsehoods programmers believe about time.
posted by Leviathant at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
This seems like the appropriate place to drop in a link to Falsehoods programmers believe about time.
posted by Leviathant at 1:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
Some neat maps of the effect of different alternatives on "reasonable" sunrise and sunset times.
Thanks for posting that, Mr. Know-it-some. I've seen it before, and it is a remarkably effective visualization. Seems pretty clear based on those maps than permanent Standard time would be much better overall, but I am also on team "pick one and stick with it".
posted by Rock Steady at 1:09 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Thanks for posting that, Mr. Know-it-some. I've seen it before, and it is a remarkably effective visualization. Seems pretty clear based on those maps than permanent Standard time would be much better overall, but I am also on team "pick one and stick with it".
posted by Rock Steady at 1:09 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
What happens in winter is that kids go to school in complete darkness.
My kids are doing that now. They really love it. Being scared of the dark is a learned phenomena.
However, I think the difference is:
There were news articles about kids getting run over by cars.
We don't really pretend to care about this anymore, not enough to effect any public policy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2022 [29 favorites]
My kids are doing that now. They really love it. Being scared of the dark is a learned phenomena.
However, I think the difference is:
There were news articles about kids getting run over by cars.
We don't really pretend to care about this anymore, not enough to effect any public policy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:11 PM on March 15, 2022 [29 favorites]
Columnists everywhere trying to figure out how to work up "millennials just killed time" into an article.
Gonna be a hard sell given the average age of Senate members
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Gonna be a hard sell given the average age of Senate members
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
One of the common pro-standard time arguments is that children are more likely to be killed by cars as they wait for buses / walk to school. And, while I agree this is a significantly bad outcome, the problem isn't daylight saving time -- it's cars and car culture!
posted by miguelcervantes at 1:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [40 favorites]
posted by miguelcervantes at 1:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [40 favorites]
Well, there's an hour I lost I will never get back.
posted by effluvia at 1:15 PM on March 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by effluvia at 1:15 PM on March 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
Seriously fuck morning light. If I can maybe sleep in on my days off in winter and then get home and not instantly feel like giving up on the day because it's dark at 430 I'll take it.
posted by Ferreous at 1:15 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:15 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
I would prefer year long standard time, but will take not switching the clock twice a year as an acceptable second choice. But I walk in the dark all year round no problem.
I'll be interested to see if this somehow becomes a partisan issue. I know the Senate vote wasn't, but it seems like everything somehow is eventually. Does anyone know if Trump has expressed an opinion on this? Seems like the kind of dumb thing that might briefly inconvenience him and then become a talking point.
posted by the primroses were over at 1:18 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'll be interested to see if this somehow becomes a partisan issue. I know the Senate vote wasn't, but it seems like everything somehow is eventually. Does anyone know if Trump has expressed an opinion on this? Seems like the kind of dumb thing that might briefly inconvenience him and then become a talking point.
posted by the primroses were over at 1:18 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's very on-brand for the current Senate to pass something poorly informed people are likely to find terrific, even though history clearly indicates it will be a disaster, it will accomplish nothing they promised, and everyone will hate it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
Sorry, a brief google suggests he supports it. So who will be the person to lead the backlash, I wonder
posted by the primroses were over at 1:20 PM on March 15, 2022
posted by the primroses were over at 1:20 PM on March 15, 2022
Thank every god in the book. I'd much prefer reg'lar time but I'll take daylight forever.
posted by zzazazz at 1:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by zzazazz at 1:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just because Trump supports it today doesn't mean he can't call it a disaster and say he knew it was a bad idea all along later. Internal consistency isn't part of his brand.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:21 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Also wrt the kids going to school in darkness thing. That's happening already, I was at a bus stop at 615 am. I see kids at bus stops in the dark during standard time. It's just slightly more now and then those kids can get some actual sunlight in their eyes in the afternoon.
posted by Ferreous at 1:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
For my money, the ideal solution is that we should stick with standard time, but the work/school day should be five or six hours long so that people can get to/from the places they need to get to/from mostly in daylight year round. The 40 hour week is arbitrary anyway and a fair amount of research indicates shorter work days would help productivity, not hurt it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:25 PM on March 15, 2022 [49 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:25 PM on March 15, 2022 [49 favorites]
I like the idea that living memory of switching clocks will die out and eventually it'll be a funny trivia thing like it being eleven days later in France than in England or the new year starting on March 25th. I would love to have been the last Roman in the first century CE telling people about how things used to be when there were intercalary months before the Julian reform.
posted by sy at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by sy at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I was going to joke that a political party might propose to shift the clock by 12 hours so that we have sunlight all night long. Then I remembered that jokes become reality way too often these days.
posted by credulous at 1:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by credulous at 1:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was gonna say, that's a LOT LOT LOT of software that needs modification
I know, right? Ka-ching!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know, right? Ka-ching!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Maybe it's been a rough winter, but I started longing for my time spent in Europe when it would regularly stay light (well, dusky, but light enough) until around 10 pm in the summer. And then I thought, what with the arguments about DST saving energy and whatnot, from a pure energy consumption perspective would it make sense to snowbird so that you'd always be living in a place like that? Unfortunately, the southern hemisphere doesn't have inhabited land quite as far south as northern hemisphere does to the north, but you could live in, say, Paris and then close up the house, shut off the power, and move to... the Falklands I guess?
I also like the idea of setting time relative to the sun. Twelve hours of daylight, every day of the year, just adjust the length of the hours accordingly.
In fact, let's just throw standardization out completely. Let the local orchestra tune to whatever frequency of A they prefer best. Put up signs at the airport showing everyone what length "our" meter is, and if you don't like it then go somewhere else. Just make sure you set your watch correctly or you'll miss your connecting flight.
posted by backseatpilot at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I also like the idea of setting time relative to the sun. Twelve hours of daylight, every day of the year, just adjust the length of the hours accordingly.
In fact, let's just throw standardization out completely. Let the local orchestra tune to whatever frequency of A they prefer best. Put up signs at the airport showing everyone what length "our" meter is, and if you don't like it then go somewhere else. Just make sure you set your watch correctly or you'll miss your connecting flight.
posted by backseatpilot at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
With the endless indignities, humiliation & discomfort we heap on schoolchildren without a second thought I can't take anything seriously that's like "Well we could have this good thing but oops it'd be bad for kids though" It's all a sick joke.
posted by bleep at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
As I understand it, pretty much all of the research points to permanent Standard Time being better for the population as a whole in terms of public health than permanent DST.
posted by clawsoon at 1:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
Permanent DST for everyone in the US makes about as much sense as having everyone in the US have just one time zone. We are a a huge country, and the impacts would be inconsistent across the domain.
I live in the PNW, and permanent DST would be like walking around with a blindfold on for 6 months. Stop it. We do this for a reason.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:34 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I live in the PNW, and permanent DST would be like walking around with a blindfold on for 6 months. Stop it. We do this for a reason.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:34 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
The US Tried Permanent Daylight Saving Time in the ’70s. People Hated It.
That was just done on a whim. There has been an effort to get the public on board with the change since then so this is more likely to finally stick.
posted by jmauro at 1:36 PM on March 15, 2022
That was just done on a whim. There has been an effort to get the public on board with the change since then so this is more likely to finally stick.
posted by jmauro at 1:36 PM on March 15, 2022
Do pennies next
Oh rad, can we do the metric system next?
Second, third, and fourth vote for the metric system. Our kids need it.
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Oh rad, can we do the metric system next?
Second, third, and fourth vote for the metric system. Our kids need it.
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is the worst! Mornings are so difficult already and to have to get up and go in the pitch dark is beyond depressing. It takes every ounce of energy i have to get out the door at 630am. At least during standard time, I have a chance at sunlight.
I could not care less what time it gets dark in the afternoon. Get dark at 2pm. It doesn't matter to me. I'm already awake and raring to go. I need sunlight when I'm sleepy and have to wake up.
I am so upset. This better not happen.
posted by silverstatue at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
I could not care less what time it gets dark in the afternoon. Get dark at 2pm. It doesn't matter to me. I'm already awake and raring to go. I need sunlight when I'm sleepy and have to wake up.
I am so upset. This better not happen.
posted by silverstatue at 1:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
The US Tried Permanent Daylight Saving Time in the ’70s. People Hated It.
It will be interesting to see how the world has changed. Among other things the major complaint in the article was that kids were getting hit by cars while walking to school, but not a lot of kids are walking to school these days.
Our relationship with daylight, already tenuous in the '70s, has also continued to fade. We move from home to office to home only really aware of the outside if we have to turn the car lights on. Sure, there are some exercise enthusiasts who go outside daily but they are very much a minority.
As I say, it will be interesting.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
It will be interesting to see how the world has changed. Among other things the major complaint in the article was that kids were getting hit by cars while walking to school, but not a lot of kids are walking to school these days.
Our relationship with daylight, already tenuous in the '70s, has also continued to fade. We move from home to office to home only really aware of the outside if we have to turn the car lights on. Sure, there are some exercise enthusiasts who go outside daily but they are very much a minority.
As I say, it will be interesting.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I need sunlight when I'm sleepy and have to wake up.
That reminds me, I need to move some of my investments to SAD lamps manufacturers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
That reminds me, I need to move some of my investments to SAD lamps manufacturers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
I live in the PNW, and permanent DST would be like walking around with a blindfold on for 6 months. Stop it. We do this for a reason.
With only 8.5 hours of daylight in a day during winter, it’s going to suck either way. Don’t hold the rest of the country back because you live at a high latitude. If it’s a huge problem the states can switch to Mountain time and basically be on PST year round.
posted by jmauro at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
With only 8.5 hours of daylight in a day during winter, it’s going to suck either way. Don’t hold the rest of the country back because you live at a high latitude. If it’s a huge problem the states can switch to Mountain time and basically be on PST year round.
posted by jmauro at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
pretty much all of the research points to permanent Standard Time being better for the population as a whole in terms of public health
That fits with my personal experience. My body has never liked waking up at "get up for work" times during DST (regardless of what specific time that's been over the course of my working life). It's not thrilled about getting up for work any time, but during Standard Time it's slightly less onerous, I assume due to the way my internal clock and sleep/wake periods line up. Of course, the twice-yearly disruption is even more annoying, so either way I'd still be happier to pick a side and stick with it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
That fits with my personal experience. My body has never liked waking up at "get up for work" times during DST (regardless of what specific time that's been over the course of my working life). It's not thrilled about getting up for work any time, but during Standard Time it's slightly less onerous, I assume due to the way my internal clock and sleep/wake periods line up. Of course, the twice-yearly disruption is even more annoying, so either way I'd still be happier to pick a side and stick with it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I live on the very western edge of EST and I HATE THIS. The only thing that makes me feel safe about my winter commute is that I can leave just as the sun comes up (8am) and be able to see better if the roads are icy disasters -- definitely can't delay my commute another hour for the sunrise. AND, now it will be light until like 11pm in the middle of summer. UGGGHHHH!!!!!
posted by sk932 at 1:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by sk932 at 1:41 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I wonder if the attraction of permanent DST for lawmakers has something to do with the "work should be suffering" ethos. If you're not being forced to get up in the dark, if you're not sacrificing for the sake of The Economy, then you are not deserving of the American Dream.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
China has a single time zone, and no time switching. I think that is interesting.
posted by nushustu at 1:46 PM on March 15, 2022
posted by nushustu at 1:46 PM on March 15, 2022
AND, now it will be light until like 11pm in the middle of summer. UGGGHHHH!!!!!
If permanent DST goes through, the summer sunset time won't change -- it will be the same as it is today. (Winter sunrises will happen an hour later, though, as you said.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:47 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
If permanent DST goes through, the summer sunset time won't change -- it will be the same as it is today. (Winter sunrises will happen an hour later, though, as you said.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:47 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
AND, now it will be light until like 11pm in the middle of summer. UGGGHHHH!!!!!
I mean it won't be any different than it is any other year. Dst is still active in summers.
posted by Ferreous at 1:47 PM on March 15, 2022
I mean it won't be any different than it is any other year. Dst is still active in summers.
posted by Ferreous at 1:47 PM on March 15, 2022
If permanent DST goes through, the summer sunset time won't change -- it will be the same as it is today. (Winter sunrises will happen an hour later, though, as you said.)
Yes, yes, not thinking clearly. Too emotional.
posted by sk932 at 1:48 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, yes, not thinking clearly. Too emotional.
posted by sk932 at 1:48 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm just relieved to see the government finally pursuing a piece of legislation that we as a nation can all happily agree with!
Now, to read the thread...
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [29 favorites]
Now, to read the thread...
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [29 favorites]
Oh rad, can we do the metric system next?
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be. There's a huge amount of industrial tooling and plant which would have to be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch.
posted by clawsoon at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be. There's a huge amount of industrial tooling and plant which would have to be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch.
posted by clawsoon at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
But as someone who lives pretty far north in the US, has an indoor job without many windows and comes in and leaves without sun during the dead of winter, this as great. Sneaking in sun somewhere is going to make my days far less depression prone.
posted by Ferreous at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:50 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
But I agree that we should stop changing the clocks twice a year but settling on standard time is the answer. Do things earlier in the day if you care about "more" light in the evening but let's keep noon vaguely close to solar noon, please.
This. Make Noon Noon Again.
posted by The Tensor at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
This. Make Noon Noon Again.
posted by The Tensor at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
This doesn't go far enough. Make it two hours. Give me my afternoons back, fuck the morning.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
With only 8.5 hours of daylight in a day during winter, it’s going to suck either way. Don’t hold the rest of the country back because you live at a high latitude. If it’s a huge problem the states can switch to Mountain time and basically be on PST year round.
Or, alternatively, the parts of the country that want permanent DST should have it, and leave the rest of the country alone to enjoy a couple hours of daylight in our dark, wet, cloudy winters.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Or, alternatively, the parts of the country that want permanent DST should have it, and leave the rest of the country alone to enjoy a couple hours of daylight in our dark, wet, cloudy winters.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is not the thread I expected it to be.
As the top Related Posts link below says "...we should be watching the sun, not the clock"
I realize people have jobs and kids have school, etc., but clock "time" is just a convention. If this means (some) kids are going to school in the dark, participate in your community and lobby for a later start. There's going to be winners (aaaagh hate morning sun!) and losers (aaaagh hate morning dark!) in any system we pick, including the current one, because geography.
DST or Standard Time, pick one, not two. The switching back and forth is the mistake.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [37 favorites]
As the top Related Posts link below says "...we should be watching the sun, not the clock"
I realize people have jobs and kids have school, etc., but clock "time" is just a convention. If this means (some) kids are going to school in the dark, participate in your community and lobby for a later start. There's going to be winners (aaaagh hate morning sun!) and losers (aaaagh hate morning dark!) in any system we pick, including the current one, because geography.
DST or Standard Time, pick one, not two. The switching back and forth is the mistake.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [37 favorites]
One of the common pro-standard time arguments is that children are more likely to be killed by cars as they wait for buses / walk to school. And, while I agree this is a significantly bad outcome, the problem isn't daylight saving time -- it's cars and car culture!
Also, DST clock changes kill people.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:53 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Also, DST clock changes kill people.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:53 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Wouldn't it be easier to just change Earth's orbit?
posted by gwint at 1:53 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:53 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I live on the very western edge of EST and I HATE THIS.
I also live in the far west of EST and also think this is an abomination. If you look at the time zone maps, a lot of major cities are near the far east of their time zones, including Boston, NYC, and DC. And that is why there are so many loud voices on the internet screaming about how much they love DST. There are just a lot of people there. Meanwhile, there are only a few cities in the far west of time zones, like we are in Atlanta.
The sun was not fully up when I started teaching my 8 am class this morning. With permanent DST, we would get sunrises close to 9 am for most of the winter. That's really not okay, especially for those of us teaching 8 am Ecology labs.
If you want more daylight time in the evenings, move west. Sunset here today is 7:45 pm--so last week it was 6:45. Plenty of time to get home from work and go for a nice walk in the sunshine.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I also live in the far west of EST and also think this is an abomination. If you look at the time zone maps, a lot of major cities are near the far east of their time zones, including Boston, NYC, and DC. And that is why there are so many loud voices on the internet screaming about how much they love DST. There are just a lot of people there. Meanwhile, there are only a few cities in the far west of time zones, like we are in Atlanta.
The sun was not fully up when I started teaching my 8 am class this morning. With permanent DST, we would get sunrises close to 9 am for most of the winter. That's really not okay, especially for those of us teaching 8 am Ecology labs.
If you want more daylight time in the evenings, move west. Sunset here today is 7:45 pm--so last week it was 6:45. Plenty of time to get home from work and go for a nice walk in the sunshine.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Do pennies next
While we're at it, let's get rid of eleven and twelve. Fuck eleven and twelve and their Old English origins. We are neither old, nor are we English! From here on out, it's oneteen and twoteen.
posted by panama joe at 1:56 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
While we're at it, let's get rid of eleven and twelve. Fuck eleven and twelve and their Old English origins. We are neither old, nor are we English! From here on out, it's oneteen and twoteen.
posted by panama joe at 1:56 PM on March 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
Abolish the concept of time altogether tbh. It's just holding us back. Everyone knows we're still in March 2020 and nothing is real anyway.
posted by fight or flight at 1:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I mean, my preferred solution is a massive lift and shift so the work day starts just before sunset and ends just after midnight, and you can either live as a vampire and party all night, or spend your free time in the glorious daylight ALL DAY LONG, but I suppose this is kind of a pain for ag workers - picking tomatoes in the dark would suck extra hard.
posted by Kyol at 2:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Kyol at 2:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Time is a flat circle.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
When it comes time to make this actual law, Joe Manchin will withhold his vote and demand that it be reduced to a time-jump of 37 minutes, because poor people would use the other 23 minutes for drugs.
posted by delfin at 2:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [41 favorites]
posted by delfin at 2:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [41 favorites]
let's get rid of eleven and twelve. Fuck eleven and twelve and their Old English origins.
I feel like I've heard people try to make this argument twelfty times before. It's never gonna happen!
posted by skewed at 2:07 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I feel like I've heard people try to make this argument twelfty times before. It's never gonna happen!
posted by skewed at 2:07 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh rad, can we do the metric system next?
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be.
I enjoy videos that do careful post-mortems of large-scale accidents(*). Every time "Metric" and "Imperial" get mentioned in the same sentence I know it's going to be good.
(*) Shout out to Mentour Pilot
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2022
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be.
I enjoy videos that do careful post-mortems of large-scale accidents(*). Every time "Metric" and "Imperial" get mentioned in the same sentence I know it's going to be good.
(*) Shout out to Mentour Pilot
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:10 PM on March 15, 2022
The Problem with Time Zones. Time zones are already very complicated, particularly if you are looking across the globe or back in time. We somehow manage anyway, thank goodness.
posted by SPrintF at 2:12 PM on March 15, 2022
posted by SPrintF at 2:12 PM on March 15, 2022
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be. There's a huge amount of industrial tooling and plant which would have to be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch.
Wouldn't this be a big sell for jobs (and capitalism, ugh) to redo all of the things? Probably lots of waste, so maybe that is a problem, but I think we should probably abandon Liberia and Myanmar on this one.
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't this be a big sell for jobs (and capitalism, ugh) to redo all of the things? Probably lots of waste, so maybe that is a problem, but I think we should probably abandon Liberia and Myanmar on this one.
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I moved to Japan, which doesn't have DST, and I don't miss it at all. Interestingly, after the 2011 Tohoku earthquake happened and western Japan was scrambling for power sources, there was talk of implementing DST in Japan to save power. Studies found that it doesn't really save much power at all, and wasn't worth it compared to the social cost. So the plan was scrapped.
posted by zardoz at 2:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 2:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Wouldn't [metric conversion] be a big sell for jobs (and capitalism, ugh) to redo all of the things?
When the U.S. started a metric conversion in the seventies people kept shooting at the road signs. The topic comes pre-politicized.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
When the U.S. started a metric conversion in the seventies people kept shooting at the road signs. The topic comes pre-politicized.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I read a couple of tweets recently musing on the benefit of people sleeping more as an environmental benefit - sleeping people use less electricity, most people need more sleep, it's a win win. Not sure how that ties in here except that it seems like choosing between DST and ST could take this into account.
Also, in 2021 during the fall back someone told me as a celebration of being over 35 they ring in the new time by going to bed 1 hour early, thus getting two extra hours of sleep. Been thinking about that ever since!
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also, in 2021 during the fall back someone told me as a celebration of being over 35 they ring in the new time by going to bed 1 hour early, thus getting two extra hours of sleep. Been thinking about that ever since!
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:19 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Adapt a twenty eight hour day and a six day week. You rotate through your time being dark/light. Every week goes through sleeping during the dark and sleeping through the light and waking in the dark and waking in the light and cold and warm. A wonderful system.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 2:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'd be much happier with Standard Time being permanent. A few weeks where it's dark at the end of the workday vs. never ever light in the morning? If we got to wake up with the sun, then sure. But that's not when my dog wants out.
I don't mind changing the clocks because it feels old-timey and fun, like rotating crops but for people. And there's nothing better than getting that extra hour in the fall (well, except for one year). But not changing the clocks ever would still be pretty awesome.
Couldn't we compromise with just one time, but we stick it at the half-hour mark? I don't know exactly how that would work, something something rejiggering Y2K patch something?
posted by Mchelly at 2:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't mind changing the clocks because it feels old-timey and fun, like rotating crops but for people. And there's nothing better than getting that extra hour in the fall (well, except for one year). But not changing the clocks ever would still be pretty awesome.
Couldn't we compromise with just one time, but we stick it at the half-hour mark? I don't know exactly how that would work, something something rejiggering Y2K patch something?
posted by Mchelly at 2:33 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
All I want out of this are televised House hearings as to why it should or should not happen.
MTG demanding to know what George Soros will be doing with the missing sixty minutes, insinuating that he will hand them directly to Communist China. Rand Paul being unconvinced that Dr. Fauci isn't hiding direct evidence that sunlight cures COVID-19. Louie Gohmert demanding details of the rockets that push and pull the Sun just far enough to change the time. Paul Gosar casting suspicion because Americans turn browner after repeated solar exposure. Lauren Boebert drawing her sidearm and taking careful aim at the clock on the wall...
My DVR is ready.
posted by delfin at 2:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
MTG demanding to know what George Soros will be doing with the missing sixty minutes, insinuating that he will hand them directly to Communist China. Rand Paul being unconvinced that Dr. Fauci isn't hiding direct evidence that sunlight cures COVID-19. Louie Gohmert demanding details of the rockets that push and pull the Sun just far enough to change the time. Paul Gosar casting suspicion because Americans turn browner after repeated solar exposure. Lauren Boebert drawing her sidearm and taking careful aim at the clock on the wall...
My DVR is ready.
posted by delfin at 2:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
There is no solution that will suit our entire country and everyone's personal preference (I also waited for the bus in the dark with DST so that sounds like BS to me sorry). It needs to be pick and stick and then let your locality be where it is adjusted. I agree that later stars in the winter makes so much effing sense for school, to the point I hope I can advocate for it where I am. My local district is already considering a year round schooling schedule and only four days a week of school, so we might as well get messy with the schedule and see if we can't improve things.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 2:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 2:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Any daylight before work is unenjoyable. All enjoyable daylight is in the evening. As such, I'll happily take waking in the dark over the sun setting before 5pm in the winter.
As a Boston resident, this is what I've always dreamed of.
posted by explosion at 2:56 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
As a Boston resident, this is what I've always dreamed of.
posted by explosion at 2:56 PM on March 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
Ontario's pledged to do whatever NY and Quebec does. Standard time would be better, 'cos I love my daylight 05:00 bike rides. Also, it's closer to what proper solar time is.
I'm glad my friend who managed the time for the whole CN rail network has retired before this happened. He had some real legacy systems to deal with, and pulled 24-hour shifts twice a year when the clocks changed to update the systems and make sure they stayed updated. One of them (the Automatic equipment identification (AEI) system, ISTR) required a perfect-timed command entry at the clock change time, or everyone's freight would be declared entirely elsewhere. This would trigger alarms country-wide if it went wrong.
posted by scruss at 2:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm glad my friend who managed the time for the whole CN rail network has retired before this happened. He had some real legacy systems to deal with, and pulled 24-hour shifts twice a year when the clocks changed to update the systems and make sure they stayed updated. One of them (the Automatic equipment identification (AEI) system, ISTR) required a perfect-timed command entry at the clock change time, or everyone's freight would be declared entirely elsewhere. This would trigger alarms country-wide if it went wrong.
posted by scruss at 2:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm really kinda blown away by how many people get their panties in a bunch over the change of time. But I'd choose standard time, while preferring the change. My only complaint with the change, is how late it stays light. I LIKE darkness, in summer evenings. It's restful. I resented having the sun still setting at 10pm, when I lived in Germany.
posted by Goofyy at 2:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Goofyy at 2:57 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
When it comes time to make this actual law, Joe Manchin will withhold his vote and demand that it be reduced to a time-jump of 37 minutes, because poor people would use the other 23 minutes for drugs.
I know folks are upset with Senatorial brinksmanship, but this already passed the Senate unanimously. Meaning the chance to spike this bill came and nobody -- not even the Republicans -- took it.
posted by pwnguin at 2:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I know folks are upset with Senatorial brinksmanship, but this already passed the Senate unanimously. Meaning the chance to spike this bill came and nobody -- not even the Republicans -- took it.
posted by pwnguin at 2:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm really kinda blown away by how many people get their panties in a bunch over the change of time.
What I don't like is having to get up an hour earlier one random Monday than the Friday before it. The body rejects it, and so should you.
posted by pwnguin at 3:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
What I don't like is having to get up an hour earlier one random Monday than the Friday before it. The body rejects it, and so should you.
posted by pwnguin at 3:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Everybody had to update their DST rules when half of Arizona switched in 2010~whatever, so that code is now configurable.
I admire your optimism. Never lose it.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I admire your optimism. Never lose it.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:01 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
Someone from the Yukon was talking about what they had to do in order to get their recent time change implemented in software. They had to "talk to Microsoft for all Microsoft stuff and some guy at a university in the US for everything else". That guy is, I'm pretty sure, Paul Eggert, who maintains the tz database. Time changes like this have been implemented many, many times before.
posted by clawsoon at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
If the senator from Florida is in favor of it I have to assume there’s a catch, because most of FL is too far south for this to be particularly consequential in that state. And also Rubio is a tool.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:11 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 3:11 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
The reason the time change sucks is the same reason the time change exists is the same reason we'll never agree on what the best solution should be. (It's capitalism).
We shouldn't be working 8-5 or 9-5 in the winter anyway. We shouldn't have to work 40 hours a week at all, but however many hours we DO work, the "fuck morning daylight" people should be allowed to come in earlier and leave earlier, and the "fuck evening daylight" people should be allowed to come in later and leave later.
It sucks that we can somehow imagine coming up with a single solution that works across multiple time zones and a zillion lines of latitude when it's basically a joke to conceive of employers simply being a little more flexible in a way that would help their employees in myriad ways.
(Personally I'm generally a "fuck evening daylight" in the winter person—I don't like the sun going down at 4:30 either, but waking up an hour early in the pitch dark just for the sun to go down at 5:30 instead—still way too early to be of any use—is not it for me. But that's heavily influenced by working a 9-5 with a commute most of my adult life!)
posted by lampoil at 3:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
We shouldn't be working 8-5 or 9-5 in the winter anyway. We shouldn't have to work 40 hours a week at all, but however many hours we DO work, the "fuck morning daylight" people should be allowed to come in earlier and leave earlier, and the "fuck evening daylight" people should be allowed to come in later and leave later.
It sucks that we can somehow imagine coming up with a single solution that works across multiple time zones and a zillion lines of latitude when it's basically a joke to conceive of employers simply being a little more flexible in a way that would help their employees in myriad ways.
(Personally I'm generally a "fuck evening daylight" in the winter person—I don't like the sun going down at 4:30 either, but waking up an hour early in the pitch dark just for the sun to go down at 5:30 instead—still way too early to be of any use—is not it for me. But that's heavily influenced by working a 9-5 with a commute most of my adult life!)
posted by lampoil at 3:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
For those of you find an hour time change too big of a change to handle twice a year, a modest proposal:
Instead of changing the time an hour twice a year for the start and end of daylight savings time, we should change the time every month by ten minutes: starting January 1, six months of moving the time forward 10 minutes, and on July 1, six months of moving the time backward 10 minutes.
posted by ShooBoo at 3:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Instead of changing the time an hour twice a year for the start and end of daylight savings time, we should change the time every month by ten minutes: starting January 1, six months of moving the time forward 10 minutes, and on July 1, six months of moving the time backward 10 minutes.
posted by ShooBoo at 3:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Let's see here. There's a wildly popular notion that's been floating around for decades, totally independent of the left-right division paralyzing the national government. It's somehow garnered the unanimous support of the Senate, and no one in a position of power seems poised to try to block it.
So I can't wait to see the reconciliation bill come out of the House, which will include stipulations that any net energy savings be paid directly to Exxon-Mobil, and funding for a ten-year project to blow up the moon.
posted by Mayor West at 3:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
So I can't wait to see the reconciliation bill come out of the House, which will include stipulations that any net energy savings be paid directly to Exxon-Mobil, and funding for a ten-year project to blow up the moon.
posted by Mayor West at 3:20 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
...a modest proposal: Instead of changing the time an hour twice a year for the start and end of daylight savings time, we should change the time every month by ten minutes
That would definitely reduce the number of seizures my daughter has after the time changes, and it's something that I try to do for her to the degree that I can. I can't control the sudden change in school bus and eating schedules, though, of course, so there's still some impact from that.
posted by clawsoon at 3:27 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
That would definitely reduce the number of seizures my daughter has after the time changes, and it's something that I try to do for her to the degree that I can. I can't control the sudden change in school bus and eating schedules, though, of course, so there's still some impact from that.
posted by clawsoon at 3:27 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, does any of this require US states to obey the Federal standard? If enough people in your state care, you can switch to Standard Time all year round. Or go back to changing your clocks twice a year, although I would move out of any state that did this.
posted by meowzilla at 3:34 PM on March 15, 2022
posted by meowzilla at 3:34 PM on March 15, 2022
Let New England go to Atlantic Standard Time and let the rest of us adjust our timezone locations a bit so that we are generally close to solar noon.
I'm not dealing with an 8:30 sunrise in the winter because you want 20 minutes of sunlight after you get out of work unless you're paying for my sunlamp.
posted by thecaddy at 3:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not dealing with an 8:30 sunrise in the winter because you want 20 minutes of sunlight after you get out of work unless you're paying for my sunlamp.
posted by thecaddy at 3:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
We shouldn't have to work 40 hours a week at all, but however many hours we DO work, the "fuck morning daylight" people should be allowed to come in earlier and leave earlier, and the "fuck evening daylight" people should be allowed to come in later and leave later.
[...]
posted by lampoil at 3:14 PM on March 15
Eponysterical and...illuminating!
On another matter, I have to assume the concerns about pedestrian safety are coming from people who live in cities where drivers pay some magical, nonzero amount of attention during daylight hours?
posted by armeowda at 3:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
[...]
posted by lampoil at 3:14 PM on March 15
Eponysterical and...illuminating!
On another matter, I have to assume the concerns about pedestrian safety are coming from people who live in cities where drivers pay some magical, nonzero amount of attention during daylight hours?
posted by armeowda at 3:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
(And, y'know, in most countries you would pay for my sunlamp! Because it's healthcare paid by all our taxes!)
posted by thecaddy at 3:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by thecaddy at 3:39 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
So who will be the person to lead the backlash, I wonder.
I can't quite say why, but I'm thinking Andrew Yang.
posted by box at 3:46 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I can't quite say why, but I'm thinking Andrew Yang.
posted by box at 3:46 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
If the senator from Florida is in favor of it I have to assume there’s a catch, because most of FL is too far south for this to be particularly consequential in that state. And also Rubio is a tool.
Well, over the decades, the loudest anti-time-change voices (at least in my neck of the woods) were from a) Irate farmers, claiming the time change confused the cows and fucked with their milk production, and b) Deep believers in shadowy government conspiracies who were certain time changing was CIA mind control.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, over the decades, the loudest anti-time-change voices (at least in my neck of the woods) were from a) Irate farmers, claiming the time change confused the cows and fucked with their milk production, and b) Deep believers in shadowy government conspiracies who were certain time changing was CIA mind control.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't it be easier to just change Earth's orbit?
Just changing the inclination would be even easier.
posted by MtDewd at 4:01 PM on March 15, 2022
Just changing the inclination would be even easier.
posted by MtDewd at 4:01 PM on March 15, 2022
Listen, folks, you probably already could have used the sunlamp no matter which way we make the clock go. You work indoors? In winter? You need the lamp.
lampoil is right though. Let's stick to one time, who cares which (though standard has some evidence behind it), and work on changing capitalism instead please. please.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
lampoil is right though. Let's stick to one time, who cares which (though standard has some evidence behind it), and work on changing capitalism instead please. please.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 4:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it was reading how much work it was for the Soviets to use stolen American fighter jet plans that really clued me in to how difficult the transition would be. There's a huge amount of industrial tooling and plant which would have to be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch.
Living in a country that adopted the metric system in 1970 or thereabouts (wasn't a sudden switch-over, but took a couple of decades to switch everything), we deal almost every day with imperial units just because a couple of backward countries that happen to be big markets want things in imperial units. Nothing has to be thrown out and rebuilt, just calibrated and the US would be doing the civilised world a favour if they would just move to using the metric system like a real country.
We have DST in most areas in Australia, but not all states adopt it (mine doesn't). This means, in Summer, we are dealing with five fucking time zones at work every fucking day, because one state has an each-way bet and adopts half an hour of DST instead of an hour like everyone else. I really really wish we had DST in the state I live in, but even better would be to adopt permanent DST. but that would mean people in the West of my state have darkness until halfway through the morning.
But really, all this fucking about with clocks is itself what causes the problem. As others have mentioned, the actual solution to all this nonsense is for cities/regions to adjust the time they do things instead of being fixated on 'work must be done between the hours of 9:00 am and 5:00 pm'. Where I live, people do tend to start and finish work earlier than those in Southern states, but it's difficult for many to be allowed to do that because 9-5 is just how we do things. It's a stupid, unproductive and expensive piece of nonsense.
posted by dg at 4:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Living in a country that adopted the metric system in 1970 or thereabouts (wasn't a sudden switch-over, but took a couple of decades to switch everything), we deal almost every day with imperial units just because a couple of backward countries that happen to be big markets want things in imperial units. Nothing has to be thrown out and rebuilt, just calibrated and the US would be doing the civilised world a favour if they would just move to using the metric system like a real country.
We have DST in most areas in Australia, but not all states adopt it (mine doesn't). This means, in Summer, we are dealing with five fucking time zones at work every fucking day, because one state has an each-way bet and adopts half an hour of DST instead of an hour like everyone else. I really really wish we had DST in the state I live in, but even better would be to adopt permanent DST. but that would mean people in the West of my state have darkness until halfway through the morning.
But really, all this fucking about with clocks is itself what causes the problem. As others have mentioned, the actual solution to all this nonsense is for cities/regions to adjust the time they do things instead of being fixated on 'work must be done between the hours of 9:00 am and 5:00 pm'. Where I live, people do tend to start and finish work earlier than those in Southern states, but it's difficult for many to be allowed to do that because 9-5 is just how we do things. It's a stupid, unproductive and expensive piece of nonsense.
posted by dg at 4:06 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
The farmers adapt, not the cows. 6:00 milking in February becomes 7:00 milking in March. Cows have never been asked to change their schedules.
posted by theory at 4:10 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by theory at 4:10 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
LOL NYT: "After losing an hour of sleep over the weekend, members of the United States Senate returned to the Capitol this week a bit groggy and in a mood to put an end to all this frustrating clock-changing....Though there was no recorded vote to mark the bill’s passage, there were plenty of speeches made for the Congressional Record. Senators took turns bashing the ritual of changing the clocks — a feature of American life since at least 1918 — blaming it for everything from depression to ruining youth sporting events."
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on March 15, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on March 15, 2022
Irate farmers, claiming the time change confused the cows
Today I Learned: Cows know what time is.
Srsly, if you're a farmer and are governed by what the clock says and not your animals, yer doin' it wrong.
posted by mcstayinskool at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Today I Learned: Cows know what time is.
Srsly, if you're a farmer and are governed by what the clock says and not your animals, yer doin' it wrong.
posted by mcstayinskool at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Percent Of People Working At A Given Hour, By Occupation
If I'm eyeing that graph correctly, the number working at 7am is about the same as the number working at 5pm. For most of the year, this means they're actually at work at 6am.
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
If I'm eyeing that graph correctly, the number working at 7am is about the same as the number working at 5pm. For most of the year, this means they're actually at work at 6am.
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thank Christ. I would have preferred permanent Standard, but I’ll take what I can get. I really hate feeling like I have jet lag for 2 weeks a year.
posted by rhymedirective at 4:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 4:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Irate farmers, claiming the time change confused the cows
I mentioned that my state does not have DST. There are two primary reasons why, after a trial of DST starting in 1991, it was abandoned after a failed referendum and no politician has since had the guts to even think about the idea of suggesting we try again:
1. it confuses the cows
2. the extra daylight fades the curtains.
I fucking kid you not. These were genuine, serious reasons as to why DST was bad that were debated fiercely in pubs and equally fiercely in parliament.
People are fucking stupid. That's the real problem here, of course.
posted by dg at 4:27 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
I mentioned that my state does not have DST. There are two primary reasons why, after a trial of DST starting in 1991, it was abandoned after a failed referendum and no politician has since had the guts to even think about the idea of suggesting we try again:
1. it confuses the cows
2. the extra daylight fades the curtains.
I fucking kid you not. These were genuine, serious reasons as to why DST was bad that were debated fiercely in pubs and equally fiercely in parliament.
People are fucking stupid. That's the real problem here, of course.
posted by dg at 4:27 PM on March 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
If you look at the time zone maps, a lot of major cities are near the far east of their time zones, including Boston, NYC, and DC. And that is why there are so many loud voices on the internet screaming about how much they love DST. There are just a lot of people there.
?? There are a lot of people in the cities on the west coast in the far west of their time zone as well.
On another matter, I have to assume the concerns about pedestrian safety are coming from people who live in cities where drivers pay some magical, nonzero amount of attention during daylight hours?
According to the NHTSA, 76% of pedestrian deaths happen when it's dark out. But why ruin a snarky comment with facts about the deaths of humans?
At any rate, this interactive map is a useful tool for determining how happy you may or may not be with this change, depending on the importance of sunrise/sunset and where you live. I suspect once this goes into effect and October rolls around people are going to be unhappy again.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
?? There are a lot of people in the cities on the west coast in the far west of their time zone as well.
On another matter, I have to assume the concerns about pedestrian safety are coming from people who live in cities where drivers pay some magical, nonzero amount of attention during daylight hours?
According to the NHTSA, 76% of pedestrian deaths happen when it's dark out. But why ruin a snarky comment with facts about the deaths of humans?
At any rate, this interactive map is a useful tool for determining how happy you may or may not be with this change, depending on the importance of sunrise/sunset and where you live. I suspect once this goes into effect and October rolls around people are going to be unhappy again.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ugh, please tell me those of us in AZ can stick with our happy standard-time-all-year-long situation. The rest of you with your time switching ways have been annoying me all week (“I can’t make that meeting anymore! You Arizonans switched the time!” No, we didn’t; y’all did). The only problem with not doing DST is that everyone else does (extra fun if you’ve meetings with people in Europe or anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere, because everyone changes on different days and in different directions).
posted by nat at 4:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nat at 4:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's called the "Sunshine Protection Act", people. I was ready to believe this wasn't satire until I read that. Sunshine Protection.
posted by clawsoon at 4:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 4:58 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
If the senator from Florida is in favor of it I have to assume there’s a catch, because most of FL is too far south for this to be particularly consequential in that state. And also Rubio is a tool.
There was a ballot measure in Florida a few years back that resolved that the state should maintain DST year round. Currently it is possible for a state to opt out of DST and remain on standard time year round, but the opposite is not possible. Well, it's technically possible, but getting the required approval from the feds appears not to be.
posted by wierdo at 5:02 PM on March 15, 2022
There was a ballot measure in Florida a few years back that resolved that the state should maintain DST year round. Currently it is possible for a state to opt out of DST and remain on standard time year round, but the opposite is not possible. Well, it's technically possible, but getting the required approval from the feds appears not to be.
posted by wierdo at 5:02 PM on March 15, 2022
Oh, and it is actually consequential even way down here near the tip, just not as obvious as it is farther north. When I happen to be sleeping during the day, the extra wall clock hour before the sun comes up means I'm not trying to fall asleep with the sun shining in my face and people aren't getting home after their stupidly long commutes right at dusk.
I think states should get to pick, personally. Always DST makes a lot of sense for the largest population centers in Florida precisely because it doesn't make such a huge difference except for a couple of months out of the year. Kids aren't walking to school in the dark either way.
Ironically, standard time in summer would probably be even better since then I wouldn't have to take Dog for his evening constitutional while the sun is still beating down and turning pleasantly warm into holyfuckijustwanttogobackinsidewouldyoupleasehurryup.
posted by wierdo at 5:10 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think states should get to pick, personally. Always DST makes a lot of sense for the largest population centers in Florida precisely because it doesn't make such a huge difference except for a couple of months out of the year. Kids aren't walking to school in the dark either way.
Ironically, standard time in summer would probably be even better since then I wouldn't have to take Dog for his evening constitutional while the sun is still beating down and turning pleasantly warm into holyfuckijustwanttogobackinsidewouldyoupleasehurryup.
posted by wierdo at 5:10 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm thrilled, though I would prefer standard time. When I was teaching, the week after the spring time change was bizarre and the kids took forever to get used to it. People drove badly for a couple of weeks afterwards. Some clocks adjusted automatically but many, many others didn't. Teachers didn't show up for work and we had to cover their classes. Someone always dismissed their classes waaaay late (I'm not joking) so I had to go looking for my students.
Yeah, kids will go to school in the dark. Adults go to work in the dark. We are messed up in this country because we treat school as child care when it isn't. Either make it child care (start (in the dark) at 7:00 or so with breakfast, dismiss at 6:00 after a light supper) or put something else in its place, but don't depend on clock tweaks to make the Rube Goldberg operate correctly.
posted by Peach at 5:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yeah, kids will go to school in the dark. Adults go to work in the dark. We are messed up in this country because we treat school as child care when it isn't. Either make it child care (start (in the dark) at 7:00 or so with breakfast, dismiss at 6:00 after a light supper) or put something else in its place, but don't depend on clock tweaks to make the Rube Goldberg operate correctly.
posted by Peach at 5:17 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
My kids are doing that now. They really love it. Being scared of the dark is a learned phenomena.
Given the number of people on this thread who seem to be scared of 4:30 PM dark maybe not?
I get moving so much easier when there's sun in the sky; we're going to have a month plus in my area where sunrise is after 8 AM now. I'm coming after everyone in this thread who is pro DST when that happens.
Or I would, except my productivity is going to be shot and even stumbling through the day will count as a success.
posted by mark k at 5:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Given the number of people on this thread who seem to be scared of 4:30 PM dark maybe not?
I get moving so much easier when there's sun in the sky; we're going to have a month plus in my area where sunrise is after 8 AM now. I'm coming after everyone in this thread who is pro DST when that happens.
Or I would, except my productivity is going to be shot and even stumbling through the day will count as a success.
posted by mark k at 5:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
we're going to have a month plus in my area where sunrise is after 8 AM now
Where I grew up - if Canada follows along - it'll be four and half months.
posted by clawsoon at 5:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Where I grew up - if Canada follows along - it'll be four and half months.
posted by clawsoon at 5:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just remembered my absolute least favourite thing about having DST in some states, but not all. People that schedule meetings for 'X:00 am EST', when by EST they mean 'Eastern Summer Time' and completely ignore the fact that EST actually means 'Eastern Standard Time'. I've lost count of the number of times such people are not even aware of the existence of the acronym EDST (or EDT if you prefer to stick to TLAs).
posted by dg at 5:35 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by dg at 5:35 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Senate has unanimously passed a resolution to make DST permanent.
Not my reading of TFA, which just says the Senate held a hearing. No resolutions, certainly no legislation, just the usual litany of complaints... so don't get excited yet, kids.
Here in California the voters passed Prop 7 making DST permanent in 2018. Not good enough, apparently - we legalized weed that way but government forces and bureaucratic shenanigans in Sacramento have tied up this one such that nothing changes.
posted by Rash at 6:43 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not my reading of TFA, which just says the Senate held a hearing. No resolutions, certainly no legislation, just the usual litany of complaints... so don't get excited yet, kids.
Here in California the voters passed Prop 7 making DST permanent in 2018. Not good enough, apparently - we legalized weed that way but government forces and bureaucratic shenanigans in Sacramento have tied up this one such that nothing changes.
posted by Rash at 6:43 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not my reading of TFA, which just says the Senate held a hearing. No resolutions, certainly no legislation, just the usual litany of complaints... so don't get excited yet, kids.
I don’t know what TFA stands for in this context, but the Senate absolutely passed a bill to make DST permanent which is now going to the House.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don’t know what TFA stands for in this context, but the Senate absolutely passed a bill to make DST permanent which is now going to the House.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:55 PM on March 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
> In theory it should be a pretty easy software change.
In theory every software change is pretty easy. In theory.
posted by ryoshu at 7:13 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
In theory every software change is pretty easy. In theory.
posted by ryoshu at 7:13 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don’t know what TFA stands for in this contextTFA = The Fucking Article
The technically incorrect "Daylight Savings Time"* irrationally annoys me, so I look forward to hearing that less once it's been eliminated (not that I hear it that often in the first place living in a country where it isn't employed; a more significant benefit will be not getting tripped up by the switch when calling family).
*To MetaFilter's credit, there are only four instances (one quoted) of "daylight savings" rather than "daylight saving" in the preceding comments.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Prop 7 didn't do anything because states can't do permanent DST without a change to the (federal) Uniform Time Act. But in terms of it being stalled, yeah, I guess you could technically call it that, since state congress also has to pass a resolution, and they haven't. Last I heard, they were stuck because some sleep doctors or someone talked to CA congress, and sold major players on DST being an evil rot. All I can say is whoever those doctors are, they sure as hell aren't talking about my health, and if I'd known I wasn't voting for permanent DST with Prop 7, but rather an option to go to either permanent standard OR DST, I probably wouldn't have voted for it at all. But again, moot point, since nothing actually changes until federal law changes.
Just god please let this pass the House. I already have to wear reflective clothing and little clip-on lights to walk home safely in winter evenings. I'd so much rather endure that nonsense on the morning walk. Getting some time in which to run at the end of the day, instead of emerging into disgustingly cold black night*, would be a massive QoL improvement. (*I spend much of the winter in a not-California place, a place where the cold/dark is casually threatening to life, limb, and sanity.)
I can sympathize with morning people on this, but almost every aspect of our society caters to early birds. As an owl...might we have a scrap?!
posted by desert outpost at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Just god please let this pass the House. I already have to wear reflective clothing and little clip-on lights to walk home safely in winter evenings. I'd so much rather endure that nonsense on the morning walk. Getting some time in which to run at the end of the day, instead of emerging into disgustingly cold black night*, would be a massive QoL improvement. (*I spend much of the winter in a not-California place, a place where the cold/dark is casually threatening to life, limb, and sanity.)
I can sympathize with morning people on this, but almost every aspect of our society caters to early birds. As an owl...might we have a scrap?!
posted by desert outpost at 7:23 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Here is an NPR article from today describing the Senate resolution.
posted by Rash at 7:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 7:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
why ruin a snarky comment with facts about the deaths of humans?
You know, you’re someone whose comments I generally appreciate, so I’m actually going to humor this instance of snark-decrying-snark.
I’ve been nearly run down dozens of times in crosswalks in the past year, all with the signal in my favor, and all but once or twice in broad daylight.
Forgive me if I come off a little bit snarky because my lived experience doesn’t track with the statistics. My point was that motorists are negligent anyway and pedestrians have to assume we’re invisible at all hours, because we’ll be blamed if we get killed.
posted by armeowda at 8:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
You know, you’re someone whose comments I generally appreciate, so I’m actually going to humor this instance of snark-decrying-snark.
I’ve been nearly run down dozens of times in crosswalks in the past year, all with the signal in my favor, and all but once or twice in broad daylight.
Forgive me if I come off a little bit snarky because my lived experience doesn’t track with the statistics. My point was that motorists are negligent anyway and pedestrians have to assume we’re invisible at all hours, because we’ll be blamed if we get killed.
posted by armeowda at 8:08 PM on March 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think states should get to pick, personally.
I'm sure this will work out astoundingly well when Florida & Alabama & Wyoming decide when 7 am is in their state by a daily spinning lottery wheel because "freedom" while Massachusetts and Connecticut and California are three years into setting up a committee to create a feasibility study.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:43 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm sure this will work out astoundingly well when Florida & Alabama & Wyoming decide when 7 am is in their state by a daily spinning lottery wheel because "freedom" while Massachusetts and Connecticut and California are three years into setting up a committee to create a feasibility study.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:43 PM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
One way to help the whole having to walk to school / wait for the bus in the dark in the winter is to close schools in winter instead of summer.
posted by DEiBnL13 at 8:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by DEiBnL13 at 8:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
A lot of people in this thread are brushing off the concerns about kids' health, even though there's a pretty wide consensus that Standard Time is better than DST for public health, especially for schoolchildren.
Our attraction to year-round DST seems based purely on some sort of sentimental association with summer barbecues and baseball games and not on any scientific evidence that it's good for humans - all evidence points in the opposite direction.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Our attraction to year-round DST seems based purely on some sort of sentimental association with summer barbecues and baseball games and not on any scientific evidence that it's good for humans - all evidence points in the opposite direction.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Count me in also as someone who strongly favors Standard Time. I'd rather have the switch than permanent DST. I'm far more of a night person than I'd like to be already. Just getting my bedtime before 1 am is a struggle. My father was the same way. He'd stay up until 4 am if he could get away with it.
Also, I live in Texas. DST means that in the summer months I have to wait until like 10 pm to walk my dog because it's too hot before that.
posted by no mind at 9:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, I live in Texas. DST means that in the summer months I have to wait until like 10 pm to walk my dog because it's too hot before that.
posted by no mind at 9:40 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
First, the abrupt twice yearly changing is harmful and disruptive.
Second, only a small fraction of working people in the economy have the 9-5 weekday shift: so the whole "it will be dark or light when I go do X " thing, well, welcome to the club)
Third. education and schooling should be separate. Schools should baby sit your kids any time you need, light or dark, 24-7. We should not try to educate kids early in the morning, for more than 6 hrs and for more than 2 hrs in a row if we want them to actually learn anything. So buildings open 24-7 regardless of the sun, but class in session 10am to 4pm with half of that time in un unstructured but safety supervised free time.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 10:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Second, only a small fraction of working people in the economy have the 9-5 weekday shift: so the whole "it will be dark or light when I go do X " thing, well, welcome to the club)
Third. education and schooling should be separate. Schools should baby sit your kids any time you need, light or dark, 24-7. We should not try to educate kids early in the morning, for more than 6 hrs and for more than 2 hrs in a row if we want them to actually learn anything. So buildings open 24-7 regardless of the sun, but class in session 10am to 4pm with half of that time in un unstructured but safety supervised free time.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 10:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
I can sympathize with morning people on this, but almost every aspect of our society caters to early birds. As an owl...might we have a scrap?!
I just can't get anything accomplished at work during a bright day; my brain hates the sun and translates it into "time to sleep in a cool mossy cave somewhere." In winter, though, it gets dark at 4, and I can still get in a couple hours of good focused work before the technical end of the workday. In summer, I basically have to work until, like, 10:30-11 pm, if I want to actually finish my tasks. Wouldn't be a big deal except my day starts at 8am.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I just can't get anything accomplished at work during a bright day; my brain hates the sun and translates it into "time to sleep in a cool mossy cave somewhere." In winter, though, it gets dark at 4, and I can still get in a couple hours of good focused work before the technical end of the workday. In summer, I basically have to work until, like, 10:30-11 pm, if I want to actually finish my tasks. Wouldn't be a big deal except my day starts at 8am.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:29 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I really didn't realize that of course they're doing it in the worst possible way. OF COURSE.
posted by bleep at 10:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:31 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I welcome the biannual reminder that clock time is a human construct.
posted by fairmettle at 10:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 10:32 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not my reading of TFA, which just says the Senate held a hearing. No resolutions, certainly no legislation, just the usual litany of complaints...
Yeah, that particular article doesn’t lay out the full story. Here’s one that does.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:46 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that particular article doesn’t lay out the full story. Here’s one that does.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:46 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
In Chicago back in the 70s when this was tried, the stupid city didn't adjust the streetlights timer. It was surreal to hear children going to a public school down the block from me laughing and yelling, and to then look out the window to absolute pitch black. "Children of the Corn, here's some flashlights".
posted by Chitownfats at 1:17 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 1:17 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
Can we all appreciate that this clearly controversial decision was made unanimously, while for things the American public is massively in support of, the senate is split 50/50.
posted by Nothing at 3:24 AM on March 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Nothing at 3:24 AM on March 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
Atlanta here. It'll be dark until almost 9am in the winter.
I'm all about doing Solar Noon and Science but no, we're going to do the dumbest thing as a country because of course we are.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:50 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm all about doing Solar Noon and Science but no, we're going to do the dumbest thing as a country because of course we are.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:50 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
They do it the dumbest way possible, because Republicans are all for proving how stupid government is. Even though they do just as much or more bs than the Dems.
posted by Goofyy at 5:54 AM on March 16, 2022
posted by Goofyy at 5:54 AM on March 16, 2022
Arizona, Indiana, and other areas already maintain their own bubbles of local time.
I have a fun bit of trivia on that issue! If you've ever used software that lets you choose your time zone from a list of umpty-skillion things instead of, y'know, fewer than 30, you've encountered the IANA time zone database, a.k.a. "tzdata" (which is the standard name for the file on Unix machines). There are lots of places that aren't in tzdata. For instance, Washington, DC isn't --- it uses what tzdata calls "New York" time (more accurately, "America/New_York"), because as far as clocks are concerned, whether you're in New York and Washington, DC you keep the same time. However, this mind-bogglingly detailed collection of time-zone information does include my wife's tiny hometown in central Kentucky. There are exactly two tzdata entries for Kentucky, and one of them is "America/Kentucky/Monticello". Why? Well, tzdata records everywhere which is or ever was unusual in terms of time zone (this matters presumably if you want to refer to historical events with both universal and local times). That's why Bowling Green and Lexington don't get their own entries, because Bowling Green has always kept the same time as Nashville, and Lexington the same as Louisville. But why Monticello? Because stubborn little Wayne County, surrounded by Eastern-time-using areas, persisted in keeping to the Central time zone until the year 2000. And Monticello is the county seat and largest community in Wayne County (which doesn't mean it's big. Kentucky has 120 counties; most of them are tiny and lightly populated).
posted by jackbishop at 6:30 AM on March 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
I have a fun bit of trivia on that issue! If you've ever used software that lets you choose your time zone from a list of umpty-skillion things instead of, y'know, fewer than 30, you've encountered the IANA time zone database, a.k.a. "tzdata" (which is the standard name for the file on Unix machines). There are lots of places that aren't in tzdata. For instance, Washington, DC isn't --- it uses what tzdata calls "New York" time (more accurately, "America/New_York"), because as far as clocks are concerned, whether you're in New York and Washington, DC you keep the same time. However, this mind-bogglingly detailed collection of time-zone information does include my wife's tiny hometown in central Kentucky. There are exactly two tzdata entries for Kentucky, and one of them is "America/Kentucky/Monticello". Why? Well, tzdata records everywhere which is or ever was unusual in terms of time zone (this matters presumably if you want to refer to historical events with both universal and local times). That's why Bowling Green and Lexington don't get their own entries, because Bowling Green has always kept the same time as Nashville, and Lexington the same as Louisville. But why Monticello? Because stubborn little Wayne County, surrounded by Eastern-time-using areas, persisted in keeping to the Central time zone until the year 2000. And Monticello is the county seat and largest community in Wayne County (which doesn't mean it's big. Kentucky has 120 counties; most of them are tiny and lightly populated).
posted by jackbishop at 6:30 AM on March 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
What else can we get pissed off enough to finally get rid of?
Paying out of pocket for health care? Spending time and energy telling the IRS things they already know?
OTOH, the upthread suggestions of pennies and the metric system have the advantage that there are not major industries which profit off of those inconveniences, so they're probably more realistic.
posted by jackbishop at 6:34 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Paying out of pocket for health care? Spending time and energy telling the IRS things they already know?
OTOH, the upthread suggestions of pennies and the metric system have the advantage that there are not major industries which profit off of those inconveniences, so they're probably more realistic.
posted by jackbishop at 6:34 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Being scared of the dark is a learned phenomena
Isn’t there a theory that diurnal animals get sleepy at night partly to be unobtrusive to nighttime predators? It seems plausible there’s something inbuilt about feeling off when being active in the dark.
posted by acantha at 6:44 AM on March 16, 2022
Isn’t there a theory that diurnal animals get sleepy at night partly to be unobtrusive to nighttime predators? It seems plausible there’s something inbuilt about feeling off when being active in the dark.
posted by acantha at 6:44 AM on March 16, 2022
The reason the US still has the penny is partly because of big copper.
Re DST: BC also has passed trigger legislation that has us move to what ever Washington chooses so I'm pretty glad this is happening. Working the week after time shifts, especially this one, is like working legally impaired (by alochol if I was driving) for a lot of people. It's the topic of our safety meetings all this week. But then I'm at work at 6:30 so dark today either way.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Re DST: BC also has passed trigger legislation that has us move to what ever Washington chooses so I'm pretty glad this is happening. Working the week after time shifts, especially this one, is like working legally impaired (by alochol if I was driving) for a lot of people. It's the topic of our safety meetings all this week. But then I'm at work at 6:30 so dark today either way.
posted by Mitheral at 6:44 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Do all the people who have an issue with the switch between DST and standard time always get up at the exact same time every day? I would think that at some point during the year, everyone has to get up at some point earlier than their normal time to catch a flight, take someone else to the airport, get to a doctor's appointment, take their car to the shop, get to an early meeting at work, etc. Aren't their numerous other times throughout the year when people's normal sleep patterns are changed?
posted by jonathanhughes at 6:51 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jonathanhughes at 6:51 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
There's evidence that the time change causes real problems: webmd.com article on harmful effects of time changes
posted by bdc34 at 7:14 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bdc34 at 7:14 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mostly like reading about people complaining about the time change. I really don't understand the wailing and moaning about this issue.
I work a job that's outdoors mostly. I'm there 8am-4pm or so and DST around Christmas is gonna be brutal. Either way, it's not going to be a huge deal for me.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:28 AM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I work a job that's outdoors mostly. I'm there 8am-4pm or so and DST around Christmas is gonna be brutal. Either way, it's not going to be a huge deal for me.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:28 AM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Aren't their numerous other times throughout the year when people's normal sleep patterns are changed?
There are of course but THE ENTIRE NATION isn't doing them at once. Anything becomes a more pressing issue at that scale.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:31 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
There are of course but THE ENTIRE NATION isn't doing them at once. Anything becomes a more pressing issue at that scale.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:31 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I really don't understand the wailing and moaning about this issue.
Ok boomer.
Here is a quote from the article about real, medical science posted right before your comment:
Ok boomer.
Here is a quote from the article about real, medical science posted right before your comment:
Daylight saving, which was started to conserve energy, forces our internal clocks to compete with our watches. Inside the brain’s hypothalamus is a “master” called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), which uses hormonal and chemical signals to sync time throughout the body.posted by Fleebnork at 7:51 AM on March 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
Our internal clocks regulate processes including liver function, the immune system, and our body’s physiology, which means any disruption can have significant effects.
In a 2015 study published in Sleep Medicine, researchers compared the rate of strokes during the week after daylight saving to the rate 2 weeks before or 2 weeks after. They found the rate was 8% higher the first 2 days after the shift, and people with cancer were 25% more likely to have a stroke than during other times of year. People over 65 were 20% more likely.
A 2019 report found a higher risk of heart attack after both time changes, but particularly during daylight saving.
Interruptions to circadian rhythm can also impair focus and judgment. A 2020 study found fatal traffic accidents increased by 6% in the United States during daylight saving time.
“Most people think an hour would be inconsequential,” Czeisler says. “And it's true that we can adjust. But even that small adjustment does have consequences.”
Aren't their numerous other times throughout the year when people's normal sleep patterns are changed?
Good point. I would also like to note that pandemic insomnia is A Thing and in the last week and a half I've slept 8 hours 3 of those days. The other days I am waking up irrevocably at 2:30 a.m. for no good reason, except for time change day where it was 3:30 a.m. I can't "consistent sleep schedule" for SHIT with my body. If I go to bed at 11 every night like a good wittle girl and I'm supposed to wake up at 7-whatever on my hybrid work schedule, that doesn't mean I stay soundly asleep with no problems every single day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:18 AM on March 16, 2022
Good point. I would also like to note that pandemic insomnia is A Thing and in the last week and a half I've slept 8 hours 3 of those days. The other days I am waking up irrevocably at 2:30 a.m. for no good reason, except for time change day where it was 3:30 a.m. I can't "consistent sleep schedule" for SHIT with my body. If I go to bed at 11 every night like a good wittle girl and I'm supposed to wake up at 7-whatever on my hybrid work schedule, that doesn't mean I stay soundly asleep with no problems every single day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:18 AM on March 16, 2022
Aren't their numerous other times throughout the year when people's normal sleep patterns are changed?
Yes, and each and every one of those times fucks with me for days. I have sleep issues. If I don't stick to a strict schedule - and I mean STRICT - I don't sleep. When I don't sleep, I can't function. The time changes wreak HAVOC on me and at this point in my life I truly do not care; just pick one and stick with it and stop making me change.
posted by cooker girl at 8:56 AM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yes, and each and every one of those times fucks with me for days. I have sleep issues. If I don't stick to a strict schedule - and I mean STRICT - I don't sleep. When I don't sleep, I can't function. The time changes wreak HAVOC on me and at this point in my life I truly do not care; just pick one and stick with it and stop making me change.
posted by cooker girl at 8:56 AM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can we all appreciate that this clearly controversial decision
Umm, no? It’s not even close.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:15 AM on March 16, 2022
Umm, no? It’s not even close.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:15 AM on March 16, 2022
Umm, no? It’s not even close.
I've seen conflicting polls on this:
posted by clawsoon at 9:37 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've seen conflicting polls on this:
An AP-NORC poll from late 2019 found that just 31% of Americans wanted to move to daylight saving time all year around. That beat out the 28% who wanted to keep switching back and forth between daylight saving and standard time, but trailed 40% who yearned for standard time all year around.This seems to be something where the polls swing around pretty dramatically over just a few years.
In other words, there's no consensus. Most Americans (71%) take a position that seems in opposition to daylight saving all the time.
posted by clawsoon at 9:37 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was looking forward to being a special snowflake once New England collectively declared itself to be on permanent Atlantic Time (if I recall, Maine and Rhode Island have already passed laws which would take effect if Massachusetts ever switched timezones), but I guess permanent DST for the entire country will have to do.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am certain that there is far more agreement on the switch being unpopular than which time setting to stick with.
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
David Chen @davechensky
In honor of Daylight Savings Time being made permanent, I’d like to share with you my favorite movie review of all time, which is for Danny Boyle’s SUNSHINE
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
In honor of Daylight Savings Time being made permanent, I’d like to share with you my favorite movie review of all time, which is for Danny Boyle’s SUNSHINE
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
All I can say is, my pets will be really happy about this. And I will be happy because I don't have to listen to them whine for food because they know nothing of time changes.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 11:25 AM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 11:25 AM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a morning person on the east coast so I prefer Standard Time, but I'm willing to suffer through DST to stop changing time twice a year. I have a lot of trouble with time changes--it doesn't even matter whether I gain an hour or lose one--I am a mess for a couple of days after. Traveling to another time zone is a nightmare for me. So please, just pick a time and stick with it.
posted by ceejaytee at 11:46 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ceejaytee at 11:46 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would love to hear from UK Mefites here because the 4ish months I (US) was abroad there, it was so cloudy and rainy in November-December that I seem to remember it was dark until at least 8am and then again by 4 or 430 and people managed. Or Alaskans, for that matter!
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:43 PM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:43 PM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
> It will be interesting to see how the world has changed. Among other things the major complaint in the article was that kids were getting hit by cars while walking to school, but not a lot of kids are walking to school these days.
Our relationship with daylight, already tenuous in the '70s, has also continued to fade. We move from home to office to home only really aware of the outside if we have to turn the car lights on. Sure, there are some exercise enthusiasts who go outside daily but they are very much a minority.
Uh, this isn't even kind of true for those of us who live in cities. Most kids walk to school (or walk to the bus/subway to go to school when they're older) and most people have to go outside in the daylight every day, even if you commute to work by car.
posted by desuetude at 1:08 PM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
Our relationship with daylight, already tenuous in the '70s, has also continued to fade. We move from home to office to home only really aware of the outside if we have to turn the car lights on. Sure, there are some exercise enthusiasts who go outside daily but they are very much a minority.
Uh, this isn't even kind of true for those of us who live in cities. Most kids walk to school (or walk to the bus/subway to go to school when they're older) and most people have to go outside in the daylight every day, even if you commute to work by car.
posted by desuetude at 1:08 PM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I grew up in Northern NJ and school started at 7:20am and with the addition of an after school club I often wouldn’t get out until 5:30. During December and January it was often the case that I didn’t see daylight other than from classroom windows.
When do people actually get up and work? The sun rises at 7:17 in NJ on December 21st. To me that sounds like you get the sun in your eyes during a morning commute to arrive at 8, but it’s not like you’re able to go for a morning jog in the daylight or anything like that?
People are saying that with summer hours they have to wake up in the pitch dark in the winter- genuinely- do you not have to do that already?
I love the evening light, it feels like I actually have time to do something. And for whatever reason, I’m not intimidated by the morning dark the same way I am in the evening.
Summer hours year round would be a dream for me.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:29 PM on March 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
When do people actually get up and work? The sun rises at 7:17 in NJ on December 21st. To me that sounds like you get the sun in your eyes during a morning commute to arrive at 8, but it’s not like you’re able to go for a morning jog in the daylight or anything like that?
People are saying that with summer hours they have to wake up in the pitch dark in the winter- genuinely- do you not have to do that already?
I love the evening light, it feels like I actually have time to do something. And for whatever reason, I’m not intimidated by the morning dark the same way I am in the evening.
Summer hours year round would be a dream for me.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:29 PM on March 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
This seems to be something where the polls swing around pretty dramatically over just a few years.
I wonder how much the choice of one or the other depends on when the polls happen. I would expect a certain preference for whichever one people have currently formed their habits around.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:29 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wonder how much the choice of one or the other depends on when the polls happen. I would expect a certain preference for whichever one people have currently formed their habits around.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:29 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Most kids [in cities] walk to school (or walk to the bus/subway to go to school when they're older)
Fair enough. The national number is about 10% but NYC is over 50%.
most people have to go outside in the daylight every day
If we’re saying people are outside for any other reason than to get from point A to point B I have my doubts. In suburbia at least they’re not out there in large numbers mowing the lawn, or sitting in the park, or playing Kick The Can with the neighborhood gang of kids.
Of course my recent memories are tainted by two years of COVID desolation so I’m not really sure. It would be good to find some numbers.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:48 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's called the "Sunshine Protection Act"
But a lot of people will probably call it the Sunshine Protections Act.
The reason the US still has the penny is partly because of big copper.
There's more copper in a dime now than in a penny. Over 30 times as much.
posted by MtDewd at 3:07 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
But a lot of people will probably call it the Sunshine Protections Act.
The reason the US still has the penny is partly because of big copper.
There's more copper in a dime now than in a penny. Over 30 times as much.
posted by MtDewd at 3:07 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I would love to hear from UK Mefites here because the 4ish months I (US) was abroad there, it was so cloudy and rainy in November-December that I seem to remember it was dark until at least 8am and then again by 4 or 430 and people managed.
Speaking from the UK: we manage. We bitch about the dark and we're miserable but we manage. Waking up in darkness and leaving school/work into more darkness is really draining but we don't have much choice. Lots of people I know get through those months with SAD lamps. We're also, as a country, chronically deficient in vitamin D (enough that the NHS has suggested everyone should be on some form of a supplemental vitamin, especially during winter).
I think this also explains why Brits flock outside at the first hint of sunshine. I remember one year we had a particularly sunny and warm day in March and there were people pulling chairs out of their homes and sunbathing on tiny patches of grass in city centres desperately soaking up some precious, precious light.
posted by fight or flight at 3:14 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Speaking from the UK: we manage. We bitch about the dark and we're miserable but we manage. Waking up in darkness and leaving school/work into more darkness is really draining but we don't have much choice. Lots of people I know get through those months with SAD lamps. We're also, as a country, chronically deficient in vitamin D (enough that the NHS has suggested everyone should be on some form of a supplemental vitamin, especially during winter).
I think this also explains why Brits flock outside at the first hint of sunshine. I remember one year we had a particularly sunny and warm day in March and there were people pulling chairs out of their homes and sunbathing on tiny patches of grass in city centres desperately soaking up some precious, precious light.
posted by fight or flight at 3:14 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
What are the odds this becomes another D/R issue, with everybody wanting to get of getting rid of time changes, but Dems want to listen to the sleep scientists and have the sun be at its highest point at noon and Reps want the other one?
I may be feeling cynical or pessimistic, but Blue Time and Red Time feels like a possibility.
posted by box at 4:11 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I may be feeling cynical or pessimistic, but Blue Time and Red Time feels like a possibility.
posted by box at 4:11 PM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
What are the odds this becomes another D/R issue, with everybody wanting to get of getting rid of time changes, but Dems want to listen to the sleep scientists and have the sun be at its highest point at noon and Reps want the other one?
Here's one hint in that direction I found:
posted by clawsoon at 4:25 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here's one hint in that direction I found:
Permanent Standard Time proponents will show up at a state legislature, and basically pontificate about how they have a monopoly on truth and science, and make statements that amount to: If you don’t do what we tell you to do then you are an idiot. Before this year I bridled a bit when one of them would show up to testify, but now I welcome it because they are so off-putting that they actually help swing votes over to the side of fixing DST.I have no idea if this writer is Republican, but they do have that "fucking goody-two-shoes telling us to follow the science" vibe to them that I've come to associate with Republicans.
posted by clawsoon at 4:25 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I may be feeling cynical or pessimistic, but Blue Time and Red Time feels like a possibility.
If I'm thinking it through correctly, this would in general lead to Eastern and Central time being the same, a one hour difference between Central and Mountain time, and a two hour difference between Mountain and Pacific time.
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 PM on March 16, 2022
If I'm thinking it through correctly, this would in general lead to Eastern and Central time being the same, a one hour difference between Central and Mountain time, and a two hour difference between Mountain and Pacific time.
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 PM on March 16, 2022
Another "fun" time zone fact: China is officially a single time zone, UTC+8. This works just great in Beijing, but out in Xinjiang it basically means that, among the many oppressions the Uyghur suffer, they also have an official clock that bears very little relationship with the position of the sun in the sky (Uyghurs themselves often use a not-focusing sanctioned UTC+6.
posted by jackbishop at 5:40 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jackbishop at 5:40 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
What are the odds this becomes another D/R issue, with everybody wanting to get of getting rid of time changes, but Dems want to listen to the sleep scientists and have the sun be at its highest point at noon and Reps want the other one?
On the other hand, isn’t DST traditionally sold as a conservation measure? Also, simple geography is likely to have a major impact on which people find more tolerable regionally.
I have no idea if this writer is Republican
He’s actually running for Congress as a Democrat, but he seems to be pretty avowedly centrist. He’s mostly a single-issue permanent DST candidate!
posted by atoxyl at 6:01 PM on March 16, 2022
On the other hand, isn’t DST traditionally sold as a conservation measure? Also, simple geography is likely to have a major impact on which people find more tolerable regionally.
I have no idea if this writer is Republican
He’s actually running for Congress as a Democrat, but he seems to be pretty avowedly centrist. He’s mostly a single-issue permanent DST candidate!
posted by atoxyl at 6:01 PM on March 16, 2022
Yeah, up here in Minnesota I'm going to murder someone if the sun sets at 4pm instead of 5pm. I hate the winter months enough as it is. The change also really messes with my dog. I hate it enough on the days and few after but it messes my dog up until we switch back.
Permanent daylight savings, please.
posted by VTX at 7:05 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Permanent daylight savings, please.
posted by VTX at 7:05 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
In addition to cows and pets not knowing about the time change, my body has refused to acknowledge the shift since the last time we went off DST and I’ve been waking up an hour before my alarm every day until this week when the clock and I again synchronized. So, cool with me if this actually happens.
posted by rodlymight at 7:21 PM on March 16, 2022
posted by rodlymight at 7:21 PM on March 16, 2022
VTX, I also live in Minnesota and a saw an article from a local news station that says that winter-wise, it will mostly hit us in the morning hours -- i.e. the sun will rise later and sunset will be more like 5:30 instead of 4:30.
It's going to be deeply weird to experience darkness past 8:00 am, but I'm all for ending this infernal clock switching.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 7:30 PM on March 16, 2022
It's going to be deeply weird to experience darkness past 8:00 am, but I'm all for ending this infernal clock switching.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 7:30 PM on March 16, 2022
For people with sleep continuity issues, the semi-annual time change is unwelcome. Whether you lose or gain an hour doesn't matter - there's no resetting your inner clock, especially after you've been used to it for six months.
posted by datawrangler at 7:45 PM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by datawrangler at 7:45 PM on March 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
5:30 is already terrible and I hate it. Back in my retail days there were plenty of times it was dark in the morning when I started, I was far enough back in the store that I never saw the windows, and then it was dark again by the time I punched out.
I'm fine with darkness in the morning if it will move sunset back to a more reasonable hour.
The sun staying up until 10pm in the summer is fantastic.
posted by VTX at 9:13 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm fine with darkness in the morning if it will move sunset back to a more reasonable hour.
The sun staying up until 10pm in the summer is fantastic.
posted by VTX at 9:13 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
If we’re saying people are outside for any other reason than to get from point A to point B I have my doubts. In suburbia at least they’re not out there in large numbers mowing the lawn, or sitting in the park, or playing Kick The Can with the neighborhood gang of kids.
In cities, yes. Lots of people sit in parks with friends. Parents take their kids to playgrounds and dogs to the dog park. Kids play in the street if they live on a side street (cacophony erupts adorably on my street every morning and early evening.) In addition to Runners and Joggers, people just take walks for air and low-key exercise. Running errands on foot regularly is perhaps technically "getting from point A to point B" but is definitely a more immersive relationship with the outdoors.
Our houses are smaller and we live more of our lives on the sidewalks and other public spaces. That's how it works.
posted by desuetude at 10:12 PM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
In cities, yes. Lots of people sit in parks with friends. Parents take their kids to playgrounds and dogs to the dog park. Kids play in the street if they live on a side street (cacophony erupts adorably on my street every morning and early evening.) In addition to Runners and Joggers, people just take walks for air and low-key exercise. Running errands on foot regularly is perhaps technically "getting from point A to point B" but is definitely a more immersive relationship with the outdoors.
Our houses are smaller and we live more of our lives on the sidewalks and other public spaces. That's how it works.
posted by desuetude at 10:12 PM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
There remains the fact that the average American watches significantly more television and of course has infinitely more internet screen time than someone from the 1970s. I don’t know, perhaps the situation is similarly unbalanced between urban and non-urban.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would love to hear from UK Mefites here because the 4ish months I (US) was abroad there, it was so cloudy and rainy in November-December that I seem to remember it was dark until at least 8am and then again by 4 or 430 and people managed. Or Alaskans, for that matter!
Well, since you asked: in Anchorage, where I live (61 degrees north), kids are going to go to school in the dark for a long time in the winter no matter what. We distribute reflective tape for kids to put on their jackets and backpacks, and drivers are used to driving in the dark since it’s a thing they do all the time.
Right now, though, kids also go home in the dark in December, which sucks. This switch would get us an 11:15 sunrise on the winter solstice (booooo) but would also give kids a useable hour of light after school with a 4:45 sunset (🎉 ) as the latest we see. I’m all for it.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:13 AM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Well, since you asked: in Anchorage, where I live (61 degrees north), kids are going to go to school in the dark for a long time in the winter no matter what. We distribute reflective tape for kids to put on their jackets and backpacks, and drivers are used to driving in the dark since it’s a thing they do all the time.
Right now, though, kids also go home in the dark in December, which sucks. This switch would get us an 11:15 sunrise on the winter solstice (booooo) but would also give kids a useable hour of light after school with a 4:45 sunset (🎉 ) as the latest we see. I’m all for it.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:13 AM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
I would love to hear from UK Mefites here because the 4ish months I (US) was abroad there, it was so cloudy and rainy in November-December that I seem to remember it was dark until at least 8am and then again by 4 or 430 and people managed. Or Alaskans, for that matter!
Getting up to go to work in the dark or dim light, and going home from school/work in the dark is just a normal winter. As is having whole days when you never see the sun because you were busy indoors over lunchtime. Yes, as someone mentioned, we do lack vitamin D. Obviously we get the gloriously long summer days of rain and cloud to compensate.
posted by plonkee at 12:37 AM on March 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Getting up to go to work in the dark or dim light, and going home from school/work in the dark is just a normal winter. As is having whole days when you never see the sun because you were busy indoors over lunchtime. Yes, as someone mentioned, we do lack vitamin D. Obviously we get the gloriously long summer days of rain and cloud to compensate.
posted by plonkee at 12:37 AM on March 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Washington Post: How uniform daylight saving solved America’s clock craziness
One of the crazier facts about life in the United States is this: For roughly two decades, nobody had any clue what time it was.posted by jenfullmoon at 7:12 AM on March 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
In office buildings, it could be 4 p.m. on one floor and 5 p.m. on another — an important matter for several reasons, including who punched out first to get to happy hour. People would step off airplanes with no idea how to set their watches.
Before 1966, when President Lyndon B. Johnson solved the craziness over America’s clocks two years after signing the Civil Rights Act, time was essentially anything governments or businesses wanted it to be. Although laws mandating daylight saving — to save fuel, to give shoppers extra time in the light — were passed in 1918, by the end of World War II the system had become fractured and was ultimately dismantled.
Especially in Iowa, which had 23 different daylight saving dates. “If you wanted to get out of Iowa, you had to time your departure carefully,” Downing writes. “Motorists driving west through the 5 p.m. rush hour in Council Bluffs, Iowa, found themselves tied up in the 5 p.m. rush hour in Omaha, Nebraska, an hour later.”
The historian also offers this truly astonishing fact: “By 1963, no federal agency of commission was even attempting to keep track of timekeeping practices in the United States.”
When the government did finally get involved, a committee was, of course, established.
It was called “The Committee for Time Uniformity.”
The Uniform Time Act of 1966 — designed “to promote the observance of a uniform system of time throughout the United States” — was signed into law by Johnson on April 13, 1966.
And linked at the bottom of that article: Sleep experts say Senate has it wrong: Standard time, not daylight saving, should be permanent
posted by clawsoon at 7:39 AM on March 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:39 AM on March 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
This switch would get us an 11:15 sunrise on the winter solstice (booooo) but would also give kids a useable hour of light after school with a 4:45 sunset (🎉 ) as the latest we see. I’m all for it.
Obviously we get the gloriously long summer days of rain and cloud to compensate.
Well shit I think I need to move to Alaska.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Obviously we get the gloriously long summer days of rain and cloud to compensate.
Well shit I think I need to move to Alaska.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
If we’re saying people are outside for any other reason than to get from point A to point B I have my doubts. In suburbia at least they’re not out there in large numbers mowing the lawn, or sitting in the park, or playing Kick The Can with the neighborhood gang of kids.
This is not my experience in my suburb at all. I took my dog for a walk yesterday around 5/5:30 and passed over a dozen people walking, saw kids playing in a cul-de-sac, walked by several people out doing yardwork and my immediate neighbor was in his driveway getting his lawn mower ready for the season. The day before yesterday I went on a walk with a friend and we ended up in a park nearby her street and there were kids on the playground and several people walking the loop around the park. These are things I regularly see when I'm out and about in my neighborhood.
posted by cooker girl at 8:34 AM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is not my experience in my suburb at all. I took my dog for a walk yesterday around 5/5:30 and passed over a dozen people walking, saw kids playing in a cul-de-sac, walked by several people out doing yardwork and my immediate neighbor was in his driveway getting his lawn mower ready for the season. The day before yesterday I went on a walk with a friend and we ended up in a park nearby her street and there were kids on the playground and several people walking the loop around the park. These are things I regularly see when I'm out and about in my neighborhood.
posted by cooker girl at 8:34 AM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Up here at 68 north DST is pretty pointless, in the summer it is light and in the winter dark. Right now we have more "normal" day/night for a month or so, days get longer by several minutes a day, soon we have constant light =)
posted by skaggig at 10:43 AM on March 17, 2022
posted by skaggig at 10:43 AM on March 17, 2022
Everyone Was Surprised by the Senate passing permanent Daylight Savings Time. Especially the Senators. (Buzzfeed News) In which sitting United States Senators go on the record saying things like:
You know, it wasn’t, like, my highest priority in the US Senate."and
“It’s literally an issue my staff and I had never discussed, and they made an assumption that I don’t really care about daylight saving time. And I don’t know if I do!"posted by box at 2:45 PM on March 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
Anecdotally, I felt safer in the city walking in the morning dark than the evening dark. In the morning it seemed like there was less traffic and less hurry. In the evening, I don't know, everyone's boss pissed them off and now they had to drive fast? I don't have numbers, just that I was incredibly relieved* to be walking home in the daylight.
*still scared of killer SUVs everywhere but ya know
posted by Emmy Rae at 3:09 PM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
*still scared of killer SUVs everywhere but ya know
posted by Emmy Rae at 3:09 PM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't care which one. JUst pick one and stick to it. My body hates switching back and forth.
posted by kathrynm at 5:42 PM on March 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kathrynm at 5:42 PM on March 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
That buzzfeed article was amazing - this bill basically passed by accident. Democracy in action!
posted by advil at 8:32 PM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by advil at 8:32 PM on March 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
> As others have mentioned, the actual solution to all this nonsense is for cities/regions to adjust the time they do things instead of being fixated on 'work must be done between the hours of 9:00 am and 5:00 pm'.
Yes, this. The thing is, if the time will quit switching around and just hold still then every local area can start to figure out what start/finish time actually makes sense for things.
If it's dark in the morning for schoolkids at your location, then start school an hour later.
That's true at your location but it is not true at every location so guess what? You don't force your solution on us and we won't force ours on you.
Why are we depending on Congress to literally force all this dysfunctional "coordination" on all of us - and in a uniform way across the whole country, which we know works for some places but does not work well in others not others.
You can even do that crazy thing "School starts at 8am March through October and 9am the rest of the year." If you want to, that is. You can make your own choice based on local conditions instead of just being forced by Congress to do whatever because they thought it best.
The point is, you simplify the clock and keep it from skipping backwards and forwards haphazardly. That leaves everyone free to adapt to local conditions by changing start and end time appropriately rather than horsing around with the clock.
Clocks are supposed to be - above all - steady.
And - at the risk of introducing yet more discord into this conversation, IMHO by far the best and most wonderfullest and most scientifically proven a trillion times over plan, would be to do as China does and just adopt one single time zone across the entire country.
That would actually force schools, businesses, etc to actually think a bit about what start & end times make sense instead of just putting down "8am-4pm" and being done with it. If 8am-4pm starts some time after noon and ends just before midnight at your location then you change it to 2am-10am or whatever actually jives with your local sunlight hours.
Everyone can do this until completely satisfied with their own local start/stop hours, but meanwhile if you say "Meeting at 1pm" everyone in the whole country knows exactly what you are talking about instantly rather than requiring a supercomputer to process a multi-zillion megabyte extremely complex file just to know what damn time that really is.
posted by flug at 11:54 PM on March 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yes, this. The thing is, if the time will quit switching around and just hold still then every local area can start to figure out what start/finish time actually makes sense for things.
If it's dark in the morning for schoolkids at your location, then start school an hour later.
That's true at your location but it is not true at every location so guess what? You don't force your solution on us and we won't force ours on you.
Why are we depending on Congress to literally force all this dysfunctional "coordination" on all of us - and in a uniform way across the whole country, which we know works for some places but does not work well in others not others.
You can even do that crazy thing "School starts at 8am March through October and 9am the rest of the year." If you want to, that is. You can make your own choice based on local conditions instead of just being forced by Congress to do whatever because they thought it best.
The point is, you simplify the clock and keep it from skipping backwards and forwards haphazardly. That leaves everyone free to adapt to local conditions by changing start and end time appropriately rather than horsing around with the clock.
Clocks are supposed to be - above all - steady.
And - at the risk of introducing yet more discord into this conversation, IMHO by far the best and most wonderfullest and most scientifically proven a trillion times over plan, would be to do as China does and just adopt one single time zone across the entire country.
That would actually force schools, businesses, etc to actually think a bit about what start & end times make sense instead of just putting down "8am-4pm" and being done with it. If 8am-4pm starts some time after noon and ends just before midnight at your location then you change it to 2am-10am or whatever actually jives with your local sunlight hours.
Everyone can do this until completely satisfied with their own local start/stop hours, but meanwhile if you say "Meeting at 1pm" everyone in the whole country knows exactly what you are talking about instantly rather than requiring a supercomputer to process a multi-zillion megabyte extremely complex file just to know what damn time that really is.
posted by flug at 11:54 PM on March 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
(about 5 megabytes all told, but who's counting)
posted by trig at 3:50 AM on March 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by trig at 3:50 AM on March 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Can we switch to metric time, while we're at it? It'll make it less confusing when confronting an unfamiliar microwave.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's always noon or midnight for microwaves.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:28 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 4:28 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Another "fun" time zone fact: China is officially a single time zone, UTC+8. This works just great in Beijing, but out in Xinjiang it basically means that, among the many oppressions the Uyghur suffer, they also have an official clock that bears very little relationship with the position of the sun in the sky (Uyghurs themselves often use a not-focusing sanctioned UTC+6.
Yeah, traveling around Xinjiang over a decade ago you had to confirm what time they were taking about. Generally, everyone defaulted to a local unofficial time zone that made sense but things like the trains were, of course, on the one China time zone. If someone mentioned a time I always followed with “Xinjiang or Beijing time?” because it really depended on who you were talking to about what.
posted by Bunglegirl at 8:35 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, traveling around Xinjiang over a decade ago you had to confirm what time they were taking about. Generally, everyone defaulted to a local unofficial time zone that made sense but things like the trains were, of course, on the one China time zone. If someone mentioned a time I always followed with “Xinjiang or Beijing time?” because it really depended on who you were talking to about what.
posted by Bunglegirl at 8:35 PM on March 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine advocates establishing permanent standard time instead. But what do they know?
posted by neuron at 6:59 PM on March 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by neuron at 6:59 PM on March 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Do Americans Really Want Permanent Daylight Saving Time?
Older Americans, it turns out, are also much more likely than younger Americans to dislike the time changes. The Economist/YouGov poll found that an overwhelming majority of respondents 65 and over (77 percent) wanted to eliminate the twice-yearly time change compared with less than half of respondents age 18 to 29 (42 percent).
posted by pwnguin at 1:22 AM on March 21, 2022
Older Americans, it turns out, are also much more likely than younger Americans to dislike the time changes. The Economist/YouGov poll found that an overwhelming majority of respondents 65 and over (77 percent) wanted to eliminate the twice-yearly time change compared with less than half of respondents age 18 to 29 (42 percent).
posted by pwnguin at 1:22 AM on March 21, 2022
Nooo I thought we were aiming for permanent standard time what the fuck Senate wait not like that.
Ah well, pick one I guess. Please just stop fucking with my circadian rhythm and clock twice a year because it's total bullshit.
I still haven't adjusted my plain old digital watch from the last time shift.
I've made a tradition out of not changing my unconnected watch or some other dis-connected time device for like two decades now as a personal protest and coping tool.
It's actually easier for me to see the old Standard or Daylight time for a few weeks or even months as some kind of personal reference than having all of my connected devices update automatically from the network and leaving me feeling unmoored in time.
I'm on team Standard Time and I'd want that whether I was this far north or down near the border.
I love this thread. It's peak MetaFilter.
posted by loquacious at 2:52 AM on March 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ah well, pick one I guess. Please just stop fucking with my circadian rhythm and clock twice a year because it's total bullshit.
I still haven't adjusted my plain old digital watch from the last time shift.
I've made a tradition out of not changing my unconnected watch or some other dis-connected time device for like two decades now as a personal protest and coping tool.
It's actually easier for me to see the old Standard or Daylight time for a few weeks or even months as some kind of personal reference than having all of my connected devices update automatically from the network and leaving me feeling unmoored in time.
I'm on team Standard Time and I'd want that whether I was this far north or down near the border.
I love this thread. It's peak MetaFilter.
posted by loquacious at 2:52 AM on March 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
I truly cannot believe how many people apparently want to waste their precious limited winter daylight to illuminate the vile and hideous morning commute rather than saving it so that it isn’t pitch black at 4:30pm and you can actually do a thing after work before your circadian rhythm tells you to fall the fuck asleep. You people may as well be aliens as far as I’m concerned.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:42 PM on March 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:42 PM on March 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Problem is for those of us with a late-shifted rhythm it takes many hours of darkness in the evening before our bodies will tell us it's time to go to sleep -- while darkness in the morning feels like we should absolutely not. be. awake. It takes a heroic effort to wake myself up if the sun isn't blasting into the room, and my brain will not fully come online while it's still dark in the morning. Cold, dark mornings are utterly miserable.
Yeah, let's pick one time and stick with it, but also, can we maybe find ways to accomodate people's varied natural circadian rhythms -- so that everyone can be more happy and productive -- by finding ways to allow for more varied start times for work, school, etc.?
posted by antinomia at 4:06 PM on March 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, let's pick one time and stick with it, but also, can we maybe find ways to accomodate people's varied natural circadian rhythms -- so that everyone can be more happy and productive -- by finding ways to allow for more varied start times for work, school, etc.?
posted by antinomia at 4:06 PM on March 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ah, see, my rhythm is shifted SO late that it doesn’t matter whether it’s light in the morning or not - you could shine a flashlight in my face and it wouldn’t move the needle a bit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:12 PM on March 21, 2022
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:12 PM on March 21, 2022
can we maybe find ways to accomodate people's varied natural circadian rhythms
When I went to college the first time the policy was that first year students could not have a late start schedule. I think the idea was students could get in a cycle of stay up late, sleep in, miss class, blah blah. I am a morning person so it didn't bother me but I definitely felt for the people who FINALLY finished slogging through high school only to have class start at 8 all over again.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:02 AM on March 22, 2022
When I went to college the first time the policy was that first year students could not have a late start schedule. I think the idea was students could get in a cycle of stay up late, sleep in, miss class, blah blah. I am a morning person so it didn't bother me but I definitely felt for the people who FINALLY finished slogging through high school only to have class start at 8 all over again.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:02 AM on March 22, 2022
we maybe find ways to accomodate people's varied natural circadian rhythms -- so that everyone can be more happy and productive -- by finding ways to allow for more varied start times for work, school, etc.?
NYT article says the same: I Think I Just Solved Daylight Saving Time
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:16 AM on March 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
NYT article says the same: I Think I Just Solved Daylight Saving Time
Let’s say the bill becomes law and everyone in, say, Vermont decides that it’s not safe for children to be going to school in the dark. There’s a simple fix: Start the school day in Vermont an hour later. That would instantly undo the damage.However, I don't think that's EVER going to happen without official countrywide mandate.
Or let’s say the Sunshine Protection Act is defeated in the House and Congress goes the other direction, scrapping daylight saving time and mandating year-round standard time. If people in Florida don’t like that, they could start and end school in Florida an hour earlier, so there’s still plenty of time for after-school play and sports.
Likewise for companies, local government offices, churches, restaurants, clubs — really, everyone. If the federal or state government sets the clock in a way that doesn’t suit you, adjust your opening and closing times to right the wrong. Simple!
While we’re at it, why stick to the same hours year-round? A school board might want to start classes later in the winter than in the spring and fall, effectively creating its own customized clock change. Or not. Whatever suits.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:16 AM on March 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Local choice is only a thing in this country when it comes to the right to spread disease and remove human rights.
posted by bleep at 10:30 AM on March 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:30 AM on March 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
"The fundamental problem is that only institutions and organisations, as things abstracted from the vulnerabilities of individuals, can withstand the pressures of fatigue and seek to tackle its causes, yet these are what people afflicted by short, irregular and desynchronised sleep will generally struggle to establish and influence. Individuals who are tired and separated from each other by their schedules of repose must rely ever more on intermediary associations – the party, the union, the political movement – to address their burdens, yet are separated from these by the inequalities they are subject to. If the fatigued minorities of contemporary societies are to arrest the spiralling effects of poor sleep, probably the initiative will have to come from the well-rested."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on March 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on March 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
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