Companies save billions of $$$ by giving employees fake "manager" titles
February 24, 2023 9:04 PM Subscribe
The incredibly high [return on investment] on this activity of avoiding overtime wages might explain why we see firms across every industry — from Staples to JPMorgan, to Facebook to Walmart, to Verizon, to Avis, to Lowes — engaging in this activity even up through the present day.
The other thing is that calling someone a manager means that they are not eligible to join their union :(
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:04 PM on February 24, 2023 [41 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:04 PM on February 24, 2023 [41 favorites]
I've always thought it was weird that at my alma mater, if you manage student employees, you're not REALLY considered a "manager" (with manager title/pay) even though you may be wrangling 20 student schedules. It's totally stupid.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:09 PM on February 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:09 PM on February 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
The fact that there are ways around the law that rely on nothing more substantial than finding the right magic words would have to be a gateway to the Sovereign Citizen fringed-admiralty-flag rabbit hole.
The point that the sovcits always miss, though, is that magic words only ever work for people in existing positions of power, functioning solely to glue the thinnest possible veneer of social acceptability over their routine and various abuses of it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 PM on February 24, 2023 [41 favorites]
The point that the sovcits always miss, though, is that magic words only ever work for people in existing positions of power, functioning solely to glue the thinnest possible veneer of social acceptability over their routine and various abuses of it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 PM on February 24, 2023 [41 favorites]
They tried this at my job, I was a technical supervisor, they wanted to "promote" me to technical manager. Longer hours, no overtime. But I might be eligible for the year end bonus.
I graciously declined their offer. A co-worker accepted, never got the "bonus," and was laid off four years later.
Homer Simpson.
posted by Marky at 1:35 AM on February 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
I graciously declined their offer. A co-worker accepted, never got the "bonus," and was laid off four years later.
Homer Simpson.
posted by Marky at 1:35 AM on February 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
I've always thought it was weird that at my alma mater, if you manage student employees, you're not REALLY considered a "manager" (with manager title/pay) even though you may be wrangling 20 student schedules. It's totally stupid.
Last time I was in school (2005) I discovered that in Ontario educational institutions are allowed to violate labor laws due to a legal exemption when employing students because any work they do is considered potentially educational regardless of what it is. Learning employers will suppress your rights certainly is a solid life lesson!
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 AM on February 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
Last time I was in school (2005) I discovered that in Ontario educational institutions are allowed to violate labor laws due to a legal exemption when employing students because any work they do is considered potentially educational regardless of what it is. Learning employers will suppress your rights certainly is a solid life lesson!
posted by srboisvert at 4:12 AM on February 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
Amen flabdablet, I'll need to quote "magic words only ever work for people in existing positions of power" occasionally. :)
Is there some ownership threshold above which sure we accept you need not be paid overtime? If so, should it be 1% or 10%? Or should organizations above some size always be responsible for rewarding peoples' efforts? It should maybe just be a criminal offense to tell any employee to work more than 30 hours per week.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:34 AM on February 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is there some ownership threshold above which sure we accept you need not be paid overtime? If so, should it be 1% or 10%? Or should organizations above some size always be responsible for rewarding peoples' efforts? It should maybe just be a criminal offense to tell any employee to work more than 30 hours per week.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:34 AM on February 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I entered the workforce about 1971. I was "exempt", meaning exempt from overtime, at every job I ever held. In corporate America, if you had a job that carried the expectation of a college degree, you were exempt.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 4:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
Of course, the benefit of not giving employees overtime is you can promise them other bonuses and then not deliver on those either.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:24 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:24 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean realistically there would be a big shake-up if everyone got overtime rather than various kinds of easily gamed compensation - some downward pressure on upper middle class "I work eighty hours a week, of which many are spent eating luxury meals on the company dime, some are spent spinning my fancy chair while I 'brainstorm', and the I go to several 'conferences' a month in luxury vacation spots and stay at $500/night hotels, also on the company dime, I work much harder than mere working class people, that's why I make more" and then presumably some pressure to hire, like, ten workers who work forty hours a week instead of six people who log on at 5am and stop working when they fall into bed exhausted.
It would probably be a pretty good tradeoff even though people would of course continue to try to game the system.
posted by Frowner at 5:35 AM on February 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
It would probably be a pretty good tradeoff even though people would of course continue to try to game the system.
posted by Frowner at 5:35 AM on February 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm reminded that I really need to step up my shoplifting game.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:43 AM on February 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:43 AM on February 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Or should organizations above some size always be responsible for rewarding peoples' efforts?
One half-measure might be to guarantee overtime for anyone who's salaried yet still required to keep track of their hours for contract billing purposes. There are lots of people who collect a salary but still have to fill out timesheets and "bill" their time to a variety of contracts that their employer is a party to. Sometimes* the number of hours worked factors into how much money the company will receive, so employees are required to track the exact number of hours worked so the the company can collect "overtime" even if they themselves get a fixed salary no matter how many extra hours they work.
* It's complicated and depends on the contract. But my point is if employers have to keep track of labor hours for billing purposes, then employee salaries shouldn't be capped for working extra hours.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:46 AM on February 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
One half-measure might be to guarantee overtime for anyone who's salaried yet still required to keep track of their hours for contract billing purposes. There are lots of people who collect a salary but still have to fill out timesheets and "bill" their time to a variety of contracts that their employer is a party to. Sometimes* the number of hours worked factors into how much money the company will receive, so employees are required to track the exact number of hours worked so the the company can collect "overtime" even if they themselves get a fixed salary no matter how many extra hours they work.
* It's complicated and depends on the contract. But my point is if employers have to keep track of labor hours for billing purposes, then employee salaries shouldn't be capped for working extra hours.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:46 AM on February 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
See also: colleges giving very young admissions/financial aid/student services staff titles layered titles, negligible pay increases, etc, and then working them like a rented mule.
posted by Caxton1476 at 5:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Caxton1476 at 5:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Rule of thumb: if you have “manager” in your title and nobody reports to you, then you have one of these bogus overtime dodge titles.
Upside is that the title can help you get a real manager role down the road, gaming the ATS that’s tuned to that keyword.
posted by dr_dank at 6:10 AM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Upside is that the title can help you get a real manager role down the road, gaming the ATS that’s tuned to that keyword.
posted by dr_dank at 6:10 AM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
We had report writers who were salaried, worked very long hours, but were "exempt". Maryland DLLR smacked the company around, they're now hourly (same benefits, iirc) and get overtime.
Gotta hire for oversight departments like we hire street cops.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:19 AM on February 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Gotta hire for oversight departments like we hire street cops.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:19 AM on February 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
dr_dank: Rule of thumb: if you have “manager” in your title and nobody reports to you, then you have one of these bogus overtime dodge titles.
Marketing content manager reporting for duty. Not even marketing content reports to me, much less other people. I'm an hourly employee with the ability to work more (and so bill for more, since I'm a contractor) than 40 hours if I need to, but that's not considered overtime.
posted by emelenjr at 7:31 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Marketing content manager reporting for duty. Not even marketing content reports to me, much less other people. I'm an hourly employee with the ability to work more (and so bill for more, since I'm a contractor) than 40 hours if I need to, but that's not considered overtime.
posted by emelenjr at 7:31 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've always thought it was weird that at my alma mater, if you manage student employees, you're not REALLY considered a "manager" (with manager title/pay) even though you may be wrangling 20 student schedules. It's totally stupid.
Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. I used to work for a University. I was doing night shift grunt work. I was a Teamster. Having a union didn’t mean that managers wouldn’t blatantly violate their own rules when dealing with us. It did mean when they did you could make their lives a bit painful if you wanted to waste the time to do it. So come the pandemic the University decided that they weren’t going to lay anyone off. Cool, right? People quit left and right. It was that unpleasant a work environment. People found other jobs and quit. So normally management would find people who could be convinced to fill the gaps. Mostly new hires or people who couldn’t seem to learn that management would screw you over no matter what you had done for them last month. So when things edged opened the only people left were union people with a lot of seniority and a lot of experience with management and oh yeah no student workers. In the past management hired recently graduated students, told them they were management, and exploited them until they quit. So they couldn’t force union workers to work overtime. They couldn’t hire new people. People would interview and then nope out. So low level managers started working 70 to 80 work weeks and then they quit, then mid-level managers started working 70 to 80 work weeks, then their managers started working 70 to 80 hours. None of the managers had any protection from their boss’ abusive practices. What I’m saying is you don’t want to be management at a University unless the money they’re paying you is enough to make up for the fact that you have no union.
posted by rdr at 7:32 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. I used to work for a University. I was doing night shift grunt work. I was a Teamster. Having a union didn’t mean that managers wouldn’t blatantly violate their own rules when dealing with us. It did mean when they did you could make their lives a bit painful if you wanted to waste the time to do it. So come the pandemic the University decided that they weren’t going to lay anyone off. Cool, right? People quit left and right. It was that unpleasant a work environment. People found other jobs and quit. So normally management would find people who could be convinced to fill the gaps. Mostly new hires or people who couldn’t seem to learn that management would screw you over no matter what you had done for them last month. So when things edged opened the only people left were union people with a lot of seniority and a lot of experience with management and oh yeah no student workers. In the past management hired recently graduated students, told them they were management, and exploited them until they quit. So they couldn’t force union workers to work overtime. They couldn’t hire new people. People would interview and then nope out. So low level managers started working 70 to 80 work weeks and then they quit, then mid-level managers started working 70 to 80 work weeks, then their managers started working 70 to 80 hours. None of the managers had any protection from their boss’ abusive practices. What I’m saying is you don’t want to be management at a University unless the money they’re paying you is enough to make up for the fact that you have no union.
posted by rdr at 7:32 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Personally, I feel that the whole notion of an "exempt employee" has been stretched to a ridiculous extent. It allows companies to hide the true cost of what they produce. It should either be completely eliminated, or framed very narrowly (specific roles/jobs, C-Suite, etc.).
posted by MrGuilt at 7:48 AM on February 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by MrGuilt at 7:48 AM on February 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Here in Washington state, they passed a law just last year saying that farm workers were to fall under overtime pay, time-and-a-half over 40 hours in a week. Just THIS year, just this month, they're looking at passing a law that says that farm employers get to choose 12 weeks a year where farm workers don't have overtime kick in until 50 hours. It's like, yeah, you're real people, but not really real people.
posted by hippybear at 7:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:51 AM on February 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
When I worked for a (US) immigration lawyer in the late 90s this dodge was also used to get "managerial" workers into an easier visa category for intracompany transfers. If you didn't manage people, you could be a "functional" manager (who managed a function) and still get the easier-to-qualify-for managerial visa. Looks like the same deal is probably still in place from the USCIS page on L visas.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:54 AM on February 25, 2023
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:54 AM on February 25, 2023
My old company went through a legal review sometime around 2014 and we went from a company of about 70% “managers” to 40% managers. Previously everyone was an assistant or associate project manager unless they were an intern.
I remember being told that this was because of new Obama Admin guidance, but maybe something made a compliant?
Around the same time my brother in law who worked full time at a restaurant got a promotion from a shift lead to “manager” he was promptly scheduled at 50 hours a week, and that schedule only included like 15 minutes after the last guest. He was working more hours for less money untill he finally quit
posted by CostcoCultist at 7:58 AM on February 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember being told that this was because of new Obama Admin guidance, but maybe something made a compliant?
Around the same time my brother in law who worked full time at a restaurant got a promotion from a shift lead to “manager” he was promptly scheduled at 50 hours a week, and that schedule only included like 15 minutes after the last guest. He was working more hours for less money untill he finally quit
posted by CostcoCultist at 7:58 AM on February 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Many years ago I was a manager in the web arm of a large financial firm. I was marked as "exempt" and therefore didn't get overtime pay, though I was part of a class-action lawsuit against the firm for back overtime pay that I did get from when I was non-exempt. I was lucky inasmuch as the firm was very high-functioning: there were actual career paths, a formal review system, sponsored education (mostly Dale Carnegie stuff, but still) and very, very good year end bonuses. But I had definitely drunk the Kool-Aid and was willing to work nights and weekends during crunch time to a level that severely depressed my per-hour wages, though I didn't think of it that way at the time. I was more interested in climbing the corporate ladder.
My employees did get overtime but still hated the nights and weekends, which, you know what? I can't blame them! And I stopped doing that after the biggest project I led completed. While it was successful by many metrics, it created a lot of discontent. I've been doing consulting for 12 years now (self-employed) and I don't do nights and weekends or push anyone else to do that, and I also get paid for every hour that I work. I still do a lot of mentoring and people-wrangling but it is divorced from the corporate side of things, which makes it more enjoyable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:39 AM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
My employees did get overtime but still hated the nights and weekends, which, you know what? I can't blame them! And I stopped doing that after the biggest project I led completed. While it was successful by many metrics, it created a lot of discontent. I've been doing consulting for 12 years now (self-employed) and I don't do nights and weekends or push anyone else to do that, and I also get paid for every hour that I work. I still do a lot of mentoring and people-wrangling but it is divorced from the corporate side of things, which makes it more enjoyable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:39 AM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
The whole point of being a salaried professional should be that those nights and weekends during “crunch time” are balanced with extra freedom during slow seasons, because you’re paid to complete the work, not to fill the time.
I’m admittedly one of those “managers” without direct reports. But I make a little more than the median for a USian with a Master’s, and quite a bit more than the average for a Utahn with same. Just as importantly, for every week where I’m burning the candle at both ends, I have another week where I’m processing a moderate workload at a gentle pace, and yet another week where I’m basically staying online and reachable but free to exercise, run errands, or play with the cats.
Part of that is me having the experience and education that make certain problems easy enough to solve quickly when junior colleagues and peers approach me with them. Another part is that the management above me realizes someone at my level should have good enough judgment to know when I have to be on vs. just being available.
But I checked on my former department, and it’s astonishing how many of the former executive secretaries and admin assistants are “program managers” now. They’re still earning roughly what they used to make annually in their nonexempt titles, but now they’re not hourly anymore. So I guess they can take abuse from asshole faculty and bratty residents late into the night now!
posted by armeowda at 9:42 AM on February 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
I’m admittedly one of those “managers” without direct reports. But I make a little more than the median for a USian with a Master’s, and quite a bit more than the average for a Utahn with same. Just as importantly, for every week where I’m burning the candle at both ends, I have another week where I’m processing a moderate workload at a gentle pace, and yet another week where I’m basically staying online and reachable but free to exercise, run errands, or play with the cats.
Part of that is me having the experience and education that make certain problems easy enough to solve quickly when junior colleagues and peers approach me with them. Another part is that the management above me realizes someone at my level should have good enough judgment to know when I have to be on vs. just being available.
But I checked on my former department, and it’s astonishing how many of the former executive secretaries and admin assistants are “program managers” now. They’re still earning roughly what they used to make annually in their nonexempt titles, but now they’re not hourly anymore. So I guess they can take abuse from asshole faculty and bratty residents late into the night now!
posted by armeowda at 9:42 AM on February 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
I haven't kept up with ITIL but it had a bit of this... 'Change Manager' or 'Problem Manager' or 'Service Delivery Manager' or 'Major Incident Manager'. Or Agile 'Iteration Manager'. People in those roles were generally not pulling down a 'Manager' pay-scale. You supervise a process but have no reports. Always seemed very David Graeber 'BS Job (title)' - the function needed to be performed, just not with that title (unless you were operating at sufficient scale to actually have people to mentor/manage).
posted by phigmov at 10:16 AM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by phigmov at 10:16 AM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was about to say that I didn't think Program Managers were exempt since they don't manage people, but then, well, I looked it up. That's depressing. Program management is an essential role at large organizations, but they should 100% be getting overtime.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:38 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:38 AM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't imagine what political ideology drives such laws and treatment of people
posted by Jacen at 12:46 PM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 12:46 PM on February 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's not a political ideology. It's an economic one: capitalism.
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
"some downward pressure on upper middle class "I work eighty hours a week, of which many are spent eating luxury meals on the company dime, some are spent spinning my fancy chair while I 'brainstorm', and the I go to several 'conferences' a month in luxury vacation spots and stay at $500/night hotels, also on the company dime, I work much harder than mere working class people, that's why I make more"
What is this job and how do I get it?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:23 PM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
What is this job and how do I get it?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:23 PM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
If you gotta ask…
posted by clew at 4:51 PM on February 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clew at 4:51 PM on February 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
> What is this job and how do I get it?
Metafilter moderator.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:53 PM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Metafilter moderator.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:53 PM on February 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's not a political ideology. It's an economic one
Classing capitalism as non-political is a bit of a stretch. As ideologies go, it's close to all-encompassing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 PM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Classing capitalism as non-political is a bit of a stretch. As ideologies go, it's close to all-encompassing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 PM on February 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I also see the word Tech being abused the same way.
posted by Beholder at 8:58 PM on February 25, 2023
posted by Beholder at 8:58 PM on February 25, 2023
> I can't imagine what political ideology drives such laws and treatment of people
It has 2 parts:
1. More money for owners.
2. Fuck you.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:16 AM on February 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
It has 2 parts:
1. More money for owners.
2. Fuck you.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:16 AM on February 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
What is this job and how do I get it?
As far as I can tell this is pretty close to what my bosses did at an old consulting firm. They had a good product which was customized to clients, so they had to know what their powerpoints said before they delivered them, and some days were really long and they had to be "on" all day, and they had to put in a lot of travel time, but that was only during the busy season and their clients were all old industry friends of theirs anyway. The conferences were more like once a year. They made a very comfortable six figures.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:45 PM on February 26, 2023
As far as I can tell this is pretty close to what my bosses did at an old consulting firm. They had a good product which was customized to clients, so they had to know what their powerpoints said before they delivered them, and some days were really long and they had to be "on" all day, and they had to put in a lot of travel time, but that was only during the busy season and their clients were all old industry friends of theirs anyway. The conferences were more like once a year. They made a very comfortable six figures.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:45 PM on February 26, 2023
"What is this job and how do I get it?"
"As far as I can tell this is pretty close to what my bosses did at an old consulting firm."
I guess this is actually one of the things Marx talks about, and one of the things history teaches us, and contemporary class analysis has a lot to say about, which is that professionals like doctors and lawyers and accountants may earn a really good salary and live NEAR the rich, but to be actually rich, you have to own capital and have connections. Almost all the wealthy-ish people I've known in my life have been professionals who work a lot of hours at nit-picky, highly-regulated, mentally-exhausting work, most of whom would identify themselves as wage laborers. Like, not in an "I'm the same as a warehouse worker!" way, just in an, "I'm paid for my labor" way. Especially in the US, most professionals are one or two generations removed from the farm or the factory and very specifically do not want to do manual labor because it's exhausting and backbreaking, and which many of them did for summer jobs. Being a lawyer or accountant may frequently be exhausting and enervating, but you get to wear nice clothes and work in air conditioning. Like, my ancestors left Europe so they could trade working as farmers for working in FUCKING FACTORIES, which have ROOFS and STEADY PAY, and they worked in fucking factories so their kids could get high school educations and work as retail clerks, so their grandkids could go to college and wear suits and sit at desks. I am super fucking aware that when I work myself to mental exhaustion, it is not REMOTELY the same as someone working in a factory or a warehouse or a farm, and that my family has spent literally generations working to ensure that I can sit at a desk and be cranky about thinking too hard. (My grandfather, who was a farmer (+ factory worker), was legitimately horrified when my husband and I started growing our own vegetables, since like THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS WORKING LIFE was for his offspring to not have to do that ever. He was like, "I get that people think it's a hobby, but it's a shit hobby.")
But anyway, most professionals expect to earn a wage throughout their working life; they mostly DON'T expect to own enough capital to live on investment income. They all work with or for people who DO have that kind of money, though. One of the things that kind-of interesting about the tech booms (and was interesting about all the booms before it, really) is that it's never the lawyers and accountants who make the millions; it's people who build things or people who sell things. The technocratic professionals don't come in until things are well-established enough to draw the attention of regulators and bankers. And this seems convenient for the moneyed class, since everyone hates lawyers, and you can point to lawyers at big tech companies, but those lawyers are not the guys making "fuck you" money.
And one of the things we actually learn from history is that it's hardly ever the proletariat that starts a revolution; it's basically always pissed-off lawyers who are adjacent to big money/big power, but know they'll never get there, or who see enough of the system to understand how corrupt it is, and try to rally others with less education to the cause. Like Vladimir Lenin. Martin Luther. Fidel Castro. Nelson Mandela. Mahatma Gandhi. John Adams. Alexander Hamilton. Robespierre. Even Marx himself studied law -- like so many revolutionaries, forced into it by his father, who wanted him to make a good living and stay in the bourgeoisie, after his parents and grandparents had clawed their way into the educated class.
Anyway, next revolution: Managers who don't manage anybody? I can see it, they're well-educated professionals who are nearby actually rich people but won't ever climb into that stratosphere themselves.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:05 PM on February 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
"As far as I can tell this is pretty close to what my bosses did at an old consulting firm."
I guess this is actually one of the things Marx talks about, and one of the things history teaches us, and contemporary class analysis has a lot to say about, which is that professionals like doctors and lawyers and accountants may earn a really good salary and live NEAR the rich, but to be actually rich, you have to own capital and have connections. Almost all the wealthy-ish people I've known in my life have been professionals who work a lot of hours at nit-picky, highly-regulated, mentally-exhausting work, most of whom would identify themselves as wage laborers. Like, not in an "I'm the same as a warehouse worker!" way, just in an, "I'm paid for my labor" way. Especially in the US, most professionals are one or two generations removed from the farm or the factory and very specifically do not want to do manual labor because it's exhausting and backbreaking, and which many of them did for summer jobs. Being a lawyer or accountant may frequently be exhausting and enervating, but you get to wear nice clothes and work in air conditioning. Like, my ancestors left Europe so they could trade working as farmers for working in FUCKING FACTORIES, which have ROOFS and STEADY PAY, and they worked in fucking factories so their kids could get high school educations and work as retail clerks, so their grandkids could go to college and wear suits and sit at desks. I am super fucking aware that when I work myself to mental exhaustion, it is not REMOTELY the same as someone working in a factory or a warehouse or a farm, and that my family has spent literally generations working to ensure that I can sit at a desk and be cranky about thinking too hard. (My grandfather, who was a farmer (+ factory worker), was legitimately horrified when my husband and I started growing our own vegetables, since like THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS WORKING LIFE was for his offspring to not have to do that ever. He was like, "I get that people think it's a hobby, but it's a shit hobby.")
But anyway, most professionals expect to earn a wage throughout their working life; they mostly DON'T expect to own enough capital to live on investment income. They all work with or for people who DO have that kind of money, though. One of the things that kind-of interesting about the tech booms (and was interesting about all the booms before it, really) is that it's never the lawyers and accountants who make the millions; it's people who build things or people who sell things. The technocratic professionals don't come in until things are well-established enough to draw the attention of regulators and bankers. And this seems convenient for the moneyed class, since everyone hates lawyers, and you can point to lawyers at big tech companies, but those lawyers are not the guys making "fuck you" money.
And one of the things we actually learn from history is that it's hardly ever the proletariat that starts a revolution; it's basically always pissed-off lawyers who are adjacent to big money/big power, but know they'll never get there, or who see enough of the system to understand how corrupt it is, and try to rally others with less education to the cause. Like Vladimir Lenin. Martin Luther. Fidel Castro. Nelson Mandela. Mahatma Gandhi. John Adams. Alexander Hamilton. Robespierre. Even Marx himself studied law -- like so many revolutionaries, forced into it by his father, who wanted him to make a good living and stay in the bourgeoisie, after his parents and grandparents had clawed their way into the educated class.
Anyway, next revolution: Managers who don't manage anybody? I can see it, they're well-educated professionals who are nearby actually rich people but won't ever climb into that stratosphere themselves.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:05 PM on February 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
It is also hard to comprehend the degree to which higher education is so much more prevalent in the workplace. During WWII a few percent of the population had bachelors' degrees. My grandfather had an associate's degree from a teacher's college and that was enough to guarantee him a position as an officer when he was drafted. Even completing high school was nowhere near universal. It more or less made sense in that context to assume that someone with a 4 year degree was a white collar professional with significant autonomy.
Flash forward to today, and roughly as many people have PhDs as had bachelors' degrees. I'm not even sure you can argue a PhD always has the kind of autonomy required to forgo overtime.
posted by wnissen at 2:50 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Flash forward to today, and roughly as many people have PhDs as had bachelors' degrees. I'm not even sure you can argue a PhD always has the kind of autonomy required to forgo overtime.
posted by wnissen at 2:50 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Communications Workers of America had a case like this a while back... The argument was that a lot of NYC employees with "manager" in their job title did not meet the definition of management - that is they didn't control hiring firing or make any strategic decisions.
So as part of discovery for the lawsuit CWA's lawyers interviewed a bunch of city workers and asked them about their jobs. I remember because I briefly had the job of summarizing the transcriptions and there was a city department established under the DHA (before Homeland Security found actual things to do with their post-911 funding) that had six "managers" all pulling six-figure salaries... With no job duties and "managing" only one employee.
posted by subdee at 8:30 PM on February 27, 2023
So as part of discovery for the lawsuit CWA's lawyers interviewed a bunch of city workers and asked them about their jobs. I remember because I briefly had the job of summarizing the transcriptions and there was a city department established under the DHA (before Homeland Security found actual things to do with their post-911 funding) that had six "managers" all pulling six-figure salaries... With no job duties and "managing" only one employee.
posted by subdee at 8:30 PM on February 27, 2023
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I'm not sure why state AGs and the DoL aren't more aggressive in their own enforcement. It's good publicity and even if they have some ideological preference for wage theft, they could bring enough penny ante slap on the wrist actions to get the good press pretty much continuously without really changing company behavior on any large scale.
posted by wierdo at 9:47 PM on February 24, 2023 [2 favorites]