US FTC and states file antitrust suit against Amazon retail operations

September 26, 2023 9:55 AM

The US Federal Trade Commission and more than a dozen state attorneys general have filed a sweeping antitrust lawsuit against Amazon, alleging that the e-commerce giant has unlawfully leveraged its market dominance to stamp out would-be competitors.
posted by They sucked his brains out! (38 comments total)

(Here are WaPo and AP links from my soon-to-be-deleted double post on this subject.)
posted by box at 10:00 AM on September 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

Seems such a reasonable slam dunk and yet, in these times of omnipresent regulatory capture, a great suprise that they’re actually doing it.
posted by Artw at 10:02 AM on September 26, 2023 [18 favorites]

Good, now do AirbnB and its chokehold on housing/apartments.
posted by Fizz at 10:04 AM on September 26, 2023 [46 favorites]

I wonder what the Supreme Court's been signalling on antitrust recently. Last I heard, they were defendant friendly.

Given the potential for a favorable appeal, I wonder if its an option for Amazon to ride this out and not change. They've navigated a clever and effective anti-trust legal strategy thus far. Glad the case against them is being made, anyway.
posted by Hume at 10:10 AM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

[Donald Glover good.gif]
posted by joannemerriam at 10:10 AM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm happy to see it, if a little bit frustrated that the FTC is quick to say 'we're not seeking to break up Amazon' when I want them to say 'We want to nationalize it.'
posted by box at 10:15 AM on September 26, 2023 [24 favorites]

Amazon is not so much a potentially monopolistic business as it is three to four potentially monopolistic businesses that absolutely could be split up, so breaking it up actually makes perfect logical sense.

But fuck it, nationalize as well.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on September 26, 2023 [19 favorites]

If your antitrust violations are so conspicuous that they become a conversation for anyone studying or working in antitrust orgs, I guess the only thing you can do is call for people to get recused from your case because they've tweeted about it, talked about it, thought about it, or dreamt about it.
Feels good, because I'm sure Meta and Amazon examined their options closely, and regulatory capture and straight up bribing just didn't seem plausible anymore.
posted by shenkerism at 11:02 AM on September 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

I look forward to this being resolved in 2050.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:07 AM on September 26, 2023 [11 favorites]

Amazon is more like a dozen businesses that — mostly — allow external clients, but give each other extremely sweetheart deals: delivery, warehousing, web retail storefront, video delivery, video production, AWS (which, itself, could be broken into half a dozen or so different companies), Amazon Basics, the Whole Foods unit, IMDB, and probably a bunch of others.

I don't think nationalization is the right way to go with Amazon, but I do wish they (and basically all the tech megacorps) would get broken up.
posted by reventlov at 11:09 AM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]

Great, do Google next.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:13 AM on September 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

Great, do Google next.

They're currently doing Google as we speak - the Google antitrust trial is currently ongoing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:16 AM on September 26, 2023 [31 favorites]

I think of one part of it this way -- all the prices on the Amazon store could be 30% cheaper if Amazon didn't take their pound of flesh in the process.
posted by hippybear at 11:22 AM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

Apple and Meta next.
posted by bonehead at 11:27 AM on September 26, 2023

Amazon Has Turned Into an Monopolistic Shithole Littered With Pay-to-Play Ads, FTC Lawsuit Solemnly Argues
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:36 AM on September 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Re: the Google search trial, part of the problem is that Google has convinced the judge to conduct it secretively, making it difficult to cover. Google even threw the legal equivalent of a tantrum when the government put their exhibits (which, mind you, are part of the public trial record) online.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:37 AM on September 26, 2023 [16 favorites]

Apple and Meta next.

It hasn't taken direct action against Apple recently, but the FTC is already suing Meta.
posted by jedicus at 11:45 AM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]

My neighborhood was supposed to get an Amazon Fresh store as part of yet another 5 over 1 building going up. Amazon pulled out a couple of months back, left the developer hanging and no one understood what was going on, I guess anticipation of this lawsuit probably played a role. Unfortunately the single story old retail businesses has been bought out / relocated / closed and the buildings were undergoing prep for demolition, so there will just be half demolished urban blight for a bit.
posted by interogative mood at 11:51 AM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Great, do Google next.

They're currently doing Google as we speak - the Google antitrust trial is currently ongoing.

Currently ongoing in the most hidden and corporate friendly way possible
posted by mincus at 11:52 AM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]

Nationalize it? Ok, Nationalize AWS, which is basically public infrastructure now, and shut the rest of it down. Half the shit on there is counterfeit, and you can't even rely on it to buy books anymore, and you can't ever tell if the book is going to be one of those shitty print on demand copies (and what happened to "look inside", the thing I used to decide if I was going to buy the book from my local bookshop's website). Reputable brands have all gone direct to consumer with fast shipping. And I don't even need things to show up so soon. I'm fine with 4-5 day shipping for almost everything, and leaving the house for things that I need right away (or if you're stuck inside, there's doordash, I guess). Although it would wipe out a trillion bucks in stock market equity, otherwise the world would keep on going without Amazon's retail infrastructure.
posted by dis_integration at 12:20 PM on September 26, 2023 [13 favorites]

AWS and e-commerce are two separate operations within Amazon. I have to wonder how much Amazon has been getting prepared to face this eventuality; I suspect upper management knew this coming for some time, if not having exact timing. From what I hear from inside, retail and AWS operations are separated out, and retail has had a mandate for years to use AWS like an external customer as a way to not reinvent the wheel, which makes it easier to separate concerns if it became operationally profitable to do so (or if it was legally proscribed, as it may turn out to be the case, here).
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:19 PM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Nationalize it? Ok, Nationalize AWS

Be careful what you wish for -- Kiwi Farms would presumably find life easier if they had a constitutional right to AWS. Plus, it would kind of suck when bullshit Congressional hostage taking turns off half the internet over border patrols or whatever is actually the problem.
posted by pwnguin at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]

AWS and e-commerce are two separate operations within Amazon.

I have not worked for Amazon personally but all exposure I’ve had to the inside of Amazon suggests that their whole culture is very siloed (and self-competitive) so it feels like they probably would have ended up structuring things this way regardless.
posted by atoxyl at 3:13 PM on September 26, 2023

Don't nationalize Amazon. Turn it into a worker-owned cooperative.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:56 PM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION,
STATE OF NEW YORK,
STATE OF CONNECTICUT,
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA,
STATE OF DELAWARE,
STATE OF MAINE,
STATE OF MARYLAND,
COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS,
STATE OF MICHIGAN,
STATE OF MINNESOTA,
STATE OF NEVADA,
STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE,
STATE OF NEW JERSEY,
STATE OF NEW MEXICO,
STATE OF OKLAHOMA,
STATE OF OREGON,
STATE OF RHODE ISLAND,
and
STATE OF WISCONSIN

In case you were wondering whether to vote against your piece of shit AG / for your wonderful AG in state elections this year


I mean, Oklahoma joined.
posted by eustatic at 5:08 PM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

I was going to ask, where’s Washington, but I wonder if we didn’t join because it’s being heard here.
posted by corb at 5:14 PM on September 26, 2023

Turn it into a worker-owned cooperative.

In a way, it might already be like that until (some) workers vest and leave.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2023

Nationalize it? Ok, Nationalize AWS, which is basically public infrastructure now, and shut the rest of it down.

Not this again.

Half the shit on there is counterfeit, and you can't even rely on it to buy books anymore, and you can't ever tell if the book is going to be one of those shitty print on demand copies

Let's wildly overstate our case. With grievances that don't seem to be a part of the FTC complaints.

Reputable brands have all gone direct to consumer with fast shipping.

So... Amazon isn't much of a monopoly after all?

I'm fine with 4-5 day shipping for almost everything, and leaving the house for things that I need right away (or if you're stuck inside, there's doordash, I guess).

I'm happy with X, therefore, everyone should be happy with X.

Although it would wipe out a trillion bucks in stock market equity, otherwise the world would keep on going without Amazon's retail infrastructure.

This couldn't possibly have any political blowback. Slamdunk solutions!

I don't know what it is that gets the left such stiffies for nationalization. It takes about 10 seconds of thought to figure out it's maybe not a great idea.

I think the FTC might have a tough job here. They seem to be leaning in on the monopolistic effects over competitors and suppliers, when they more traditionally went to bat over the monopolistic effects on consumers. It's not clear the latter are being all that affected, and Amazon's pricing structure seems to encourage low margins, while hard on competitors and suppliers, is decent overall for consumers. Interestingly, one of the complaints seems to be that Amazon demands a price floor for some vendors, which is the cost of wanting to play with Amazon. But as noted above, some vendors choose to bypass Amazon altogether, which kind of undercuts the FTC arguments. Nobody ever said going into business would be easy.

I'm predicting some largely symbolic concessions will eventually be made. Enough for the govt to declare some kind of victory, business will continue mostly unchanged. Even some kind of breakup will likely feel Pyrrhic to most lawsuit enthusiasts. Unless a future administration nixes it all. I don't know how individual States fare, if they continue alone or collectively.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2023 [7 favorites]

So... Amazon isn't much of a monopoly after all?

Not to police the thread, god forbid, but you might do well to take a few moments to read the third link.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm predicting some largely symbolic concessions will eventually be made. Enough for the govt to declare some kind of victory, business will continue mostly unchanged. Even some kind of breakup will likely feel Pyrrhic to most lawsuit enthusiasts.

Under a less motivated Administration, I'd agree with you. However, the FTC chairwoman has written a book about applying anti-trust law to Amazon. I think we'll see real teeth in the penalties if the government prevails. I'd personally like to see a breakup of Amazon into several -- still large! -- companies so fingers crossed.
posted by riotnrrd at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

...obviously seizing and shutting down amazon is not actually a feasible solution. i'll be sure not to direct the ftc to pursue that course of action.
posted by dis_integration at 7:57 PM on September 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

The craziest thing about the online retail competition situation has to be jet.com getting bought up by Wal-Mart. Sure, it had the pricing vibe of Ryanair, but who else was even trying in 2015?
posted by pwnguin at 9:39 PM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Linda Khan's twitter thread on the suit:
https://twitter.com/linakhanFTC/status/1706704440000999840
posted by srboisvert at 4:53 AM on September 27, 2023 [1 favorite]

https://nitter.com/linakhanFTC/status/1706704440000999840

Hmm, doesn't seem to work. Can we get a non-twitter link?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:14 AM on September 27, 2023

Here's a Threadreader link.

Here's Matt Stoller's Big, a newsletter about monopolies, commenting.
posted by box at 12:24 PM on September 27, 2023

retail has had a mandate for years to use AWS like an external customer as a way to not reinvent the wheel

This is because Amazon’s engineering culture is so hostile and poisonous, and has been so since Bezos was still packing orders, that making integrations easier for other teams is the direct equivalent to doing favors for other people inside prison. If you help someone else out and don’t get something equal in return, that person now owns you and you are put in a dangerous position.

It’s not 4D chess to prepare for future possible re-orgs.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:54 PM on September 27, 2023

If this succeeds in killing Amazon’s blatantly monopolistic policy of “you can’t sell this for less anywhere else”, it will be a monumental win for consumers.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:09 PM on September 27, 2023

I had to search a bit to dig out this talk. It traces the history of mass retail's lobbying efforts starting the rise of mail-order, to try to reach a historical understanding of the origins of the "Amazon Economy"
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:57 PM on September 27, 2023 [1 favorite]