An $18 grilled cheese sandwich?
October 1, 2015 7:08 PM Subscribe
"The way to kill a complex city is to chase out all the poor people – and their food" "When greed makes a place like New York, London or San Francisco unaffordable, the non-wealthy leave, and the city loses the smells and tastes that made it great." [SLGuardian]
Yes. Basically the inner burbs
posted by JPD at 7:16 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by JPD at 7:16 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
They go to Portland and Phoenix, mostly.
posted by MillMan at 7:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MillMan at 7:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
New York is suffering a plague of 7-11s. If they kill off our bodegas, we will not only lose an interesting diversity of food, the money previously earned by small businessowners will also be siphoned off to megacorporations.
I am deeply, deeply worried that New York is turning into San Francisco.
posted by gusandrews at 7:25 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am deeply, deeply worried that New York is turning into San Francisco.
posted by gusandrews at 7:25 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you haven't had carribean goat stew at a hole in the wall after a 2:00 bender with a bunch of other line cooks and dissected it for inspiration... Well, chances are that means that privilege has driven out some great food.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:27 PM on October 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:27 PM on October 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
When I returned to San Francisco a couple years ago, you could get a crab sandwich for 9 bucks. Now they're 14 - at the Ferry building.
From the article, "...the Bus Stop cooked simple, cheap, unpretentious food, with creativity and care..." Nowadays so much of menu engineering brings the most ridiculous naming for food.
I was just talking about this the other day with a friend. The saddest part is the pricing and the exclusivity, I can survive the stupid food names.
posted by uraniumwilly at 7:30 PM on October 1, 2015
From the article, "...the Bus Stop cooked simple, cheap, unpretentious food, with creativity and care..." Nowadays so much of menu engineering brings the most ridiculous naming for food.
I was just talking about this the other day with a friend. The saddest part is the pricing and the exclusivity, I can survive the stupid food names.
posted by uraniumwilly at 7:30 PM on October 1, 2015
I am deeply, deeply worried that New York is turning into San Francisco.
That's funny, out west the worst possible thing you can say about San Francisco is that it's becoming Manhattan.
posted by bradbane at 7:56 PM on October 1, 2015 [30 favorites]
That's funny, out west the worst possible thing you can say about San Francisco is that it's becoming Manhattan.
posted by bradbane at 7:56 PM on October 1, 2015 [30 favorites]
I am deeply, deeply worried that New York is turning into San Francisco.
Interestingly, a lot of people in the bay area worry that San Francisco is turning into New York. The parallels between the peninsula/Manhattan and Oakland/Brooklyn shouldn't surprise anyone, considering the finite resources, tremendous wealth, good food cultures, etc.
posted by Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra at 7:57 PM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Interestingly, a lot of people in the bay area worry that San Francisco is turning into New York. The parallels between the peninsula/Manhattan and Oakland/Brooklyn shouldn't surprise anyone, considering the finite resources, tremendous wealth, good food cultures, etc.
posted by Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra at 7:57 PM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
While I agree with the sentiment that, yes, it's true that gentrification as a force removes a lot of genuine, valuable, and beautiful diversity from a previously rich setting, I also can't help but find this kind of framing really troubling, a framing that suggests that the worst thing about gentrification is that foodies won't be able to get good, cheap food, not that poor people of color are losing their homes, businesses, and histories.
posted by lilies.lilies at 7:59 PM on October 1, 2015 [95 favorites]
posted by lilies.lilies at 7:59 PM on October 1, 2015 [95 favorites]
nowadays you have to go to the Bronx or Harlem to get the real food of "back in the day" NYC
posted by Yosemite Sam at 8:03 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Yosemite Sam at 8:03 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's funny, out west the worst possible thing you can say about San Francisco is that it's becoming Manhattan.
It's not contradictory - the nightmare scenario for NYC is at least one of Brooklyn, the Bronx or Queens (and Staten Island?) becoming Manhattan.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:11 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not contradictory - the nightmare scenario for NYC is at least one of Brooklyn, the Bronx or Queens (and Staten Island?) becoming Manhattan.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:11 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
the nightmare scenario for NYC is at least one of Brooklyn, the Bronx or Queens (and Staten Island?) becoming Manhattan.
ummm, already happened to the parts of Brooklyn nearest the Brooklyn Bridge!
posted by Yosemite Sam at 8:21 PM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
ummm, already happened to the parts of Brooklyn nearest the Brooklyn Bridge!
posted by Yosemite Sam at 8:21 PM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
indubitable: mostly i find that i enjoy my food more when it's been steeped in human misery. you watch some homeless guy pass out on the sidewalk after huffing something out of a brown paper bag? then you know you're about to find a good restaurant.
When a teenager in Portland, Ore., fired a gun into a crowd at a street fair on Thursday, injuring three people, a stream of curious onlookers edged up to the police tape over the next few hours, as often happens at fresh crime scenes.
One after another, they arrived with a burning question for police — one that had nothing to do with the condition of the two 15-year-old boys or the 25-year-old woman wounded in the shooting, according to a reporter who was at the scene.
What they wanted to know about, the Oregonian reporter noted incredulously, was ice cream; specifically, whether they could access the 17 flavors located inside Salt & Straw, a beloved artisanal ice cream shop that happened to be on the other side of the police tape.
posted by gucci mane at 8:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [11 favorites]
When a teenager in Portland, Ore., fired a gun into a crowd at a street fair on Thursday, injuring three people, a stream of curious onlookers edged up to the police tape over the next few hours, as often happens at fresh crime scenes.
One after another, they arrived with a burning question for police — one that had nothing to do with the condition of the two 15-year-old boys or the 25-year-old woman wounded in the shooting, according to a reporter who was at the scene.
What they wanted to know about, the Oregonian reporter noted incredulously, was ice cream; specifically, whether they could access the 17 flavors located inside Salt & Straw, a beloved artisanal ice cream shop that happened to be on the other side of the police tape.
posted by gucci mane at 8:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [11 favorites]
Queens is the new Brooklyn
Brooklyn is the new Manhattan
Manhattan is the new Dubai
hulk is the same old smash and eat the rich
posted by lalochezia at 8:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
Brooklyn is the new Manhattan
Manhattan is the new Dubai
hulk is the same old smash and eat the rich
posted by lalochezia at 8:22 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
That's funny, out west the worst possible thing you can say about San Francisco is that it's becoming Manhattan
SF should be so lucky. But it wouldn't deserve it.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
SF should be so lucky. But it wouldn't deserve it.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
When I watch all the San Franciscans moving to Portland and talking about how much better it is (which I'm sure is true, Portland sounds like my kind of place), I wonder if they secretly worry that they're just the vanguard for the same shit that ruined San Francisco.
In a way, it seems like becoming cool is the worst thing that could happen to a city. Key West evidently was a great place before Hemingway opened his big mouth about it. Anthony Bourdain has to have unwittingly wrecked at least a couple of restaurants and maybe even a few neighborhoods around the world by giving them glowing reviews on his travel shows.
I used to wish I lived in a more happening city, but I've grown to embrace the knowledge that property values here will probably never get unwieldy, our immigrant population will continue to grow and add to the cultural and culinary landscape, and there will never, ever be an abandoned and decaying Olympic arena here.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:40 PM on October 1, 2015 [11 favorites]
In a way, it seems like becoming cool is the worst thing that could happen to a city. Key West evidently was a great place before Hemingway opened his big mouth about it. Anthony Bourdain has to have unwittingly wrecked at least a couple of restaurants and maybe even a few neighborhoods around the world by giving them glowing reviews on his travel shows.
I used to wish I lived in a more happening city, but I've grown to embrace the knowledge that property values here will probably never get unwieldy, our immigrant population will continue to grow and add to the cultural and culinary landscape, and there will never, ever be an abandoned and decaying Olympic arena here.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:40 PM on October 1, 2015 [11 favorites]
I also can't help but find this kind of framing really troubling, a framing that suggests that the worst thing about gentrification is that foodies won't be able to get good, cheap food, not that poor people of color are losing their homes, businesses, and histories.
Well, it's an 800 word article in the Food & Drink section, perhaps aimed at people who don't see gentrification as a problem until it's described in terms that actually affect them.
But then again I don't even think 'gentrification' is the actual problem. A boring, homogenous city is a problem. People not being able to afford housing is a problem. Income inequality is a problem.
People NOT shitting on the streets, kids NOT getting abducted, and people NOT getting shot... not the problem. People in SF protest when trees get planted because they've internalized the idea that basic human dignity is only for rich people.
posted by danny the boy at 8:44 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
Well, it's an 800 word article in the Food & Drink section, perhaps aimed at people who don't see gentrification as a problem until it's described in terms that actually affect them.
But then again I don't even think 'gentrification' is the actual problem. A boring, homogenous city is a problem. People not being able to afford housing is a problem. Income inequality is a problem.
People NOT shitting on the streets, kids NOT getting abducted, and people NOT getting shot... not the problem. People in SF protest when trees get planted because they've internalized the idea that basic human dignity is only for rich people.
posted by danny the boy at 8:44 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
Eh, this is what happens when increasingly concentrated and peripatetic capital turns its Sauron-like eye upon different communities in its ceaseless quest to adhere itself to some notion of authenticity.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:45 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:45 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Man I can't even explain how fucked up the idea of some place getting "too cool" is. Like you realize if you frame it that way the only solution is to actively ruin the good things about your city? Rather than trying to give everyone access to the cool things?
posted by danny the boy at 8:46 PM on October 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by danny the boy at 8:46 PM on October 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
What they wanted to know about, the Oregonian reporter noted incredulously, was ice cream; specifically, whether they could access the 17 flavors located inside Salt & Straw, a beloved artisanal ice cream shop that happened to be on the other side of the police tape.
There is a very particular Portland variety of tone deafness that is hard to describe but easy to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:48 PM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's a Salt&Straw here in LA but I don't think we'd walk over bodies and through police tape to get in. I don't think. It's not like it's the latest trendy nightclub.
posted by Justinian at 8:49 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 8:49 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Justinian: Trying to deal with the LAPD in Larchmont would be surreal as-is.
posted by raihan_ at 8:54 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by raihan_ at 8:54 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man I can't even explain how fucked up the idea of some place getting "too cool" is. Like you realize if you frame it that way the only solution is to actively ruin the good things about your city? Rather than trying to give everyone access to the cooL things?
Perhaps "fashionable" is a clearer word? I love most things about my city. I love that it's a 15 minute drive to nature. I love that it is one of the most unsung great pizza cities of the world. I love its exploding immigrant population.
One of the things I love best about it is that trendy rich people haven't discovered what's great about it and decided to move here in droves. Because the fallout I've seen happen in other cities may not be inevitable when they show up, but it sure looks likely. An influx of rich entrepreneurs could very likely co-opt and then destroy what's cool about this town. So what's cool about it stays accessible to most everyone if they don't come.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:57 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Perhaps "fashionable" is a clearer word? I love most things about my city. I love that it's a 15 minute drive to nature. I love that it is one of the most unsung great pizza cities of the world. I love its exploding immigrant population.
One of the things I love best about it is that trendy rich people haven't discovered what's great about it and decided to move here in droves. Because the fallout I've seen happen in other cities may not be inevitable when they show up, but it sure looks likely. An influx of rich entrepreneurs could very likely co-opt and then destroy what's cool about this town. So what's cool about it stays accessible to most everyone if they don't come.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:57 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Every time I listen to someone go on about how great and awesome it is to live in NYC/SF/etc, I can't help the feeling that their spiel is more about convincing themselves than me.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:02 PM on October 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 9:02 PM on October 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I threw a stick in a crowd in San Francisco the other day. It landed on a dude who moved here from his home in Manhattan. He had settled down here many years ago and began raising a family. Then he moved to Portland.*
*There was no stick, but there are fuckloads of NYers in Portland and San Francisco who love it. They love it here in the west and at home. These particular New Yorkers are really quite friendly. They're a talkative bunch.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:07 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
*There was no stick, but there are fuckloads of NYers in Portland and San Francisco who love it. They love it here in the west and at home. These particular New Yorkers are really quite friendly. They're a talkative bunch.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:07 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man I can't even explain how fucked up the idea of some place getting "too cool" is.
Even more depressing: it makes a little bit of sense. There's a limited supply of dense, walkable neighbourhoods in North America and our land-use policies frequently makes it illegal to build more of them. When something is both scarce and desirable, chances are it's going to end up with the well-off.
(it should go without saying that building more cities is preferable to keeping urban neighbourhoods shitty so that prices don't rise, but that option doesn't occur to most people and it's a tough sell politically)
posted by ripley_ at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2015 [26 favorites]
Even more depressing: it makes a little bit of sense. There's a limited supply of dense, walkable neighbourhoods in North America and our land-use policies frequently makes it illegal to build more of them. When something is both scarce and desirable, chances are it's going to end up with the well-off.
(it should go without saying that building more cities is preferable to keeping urban neighbourhoods shitty so that prices don't rise, but that option doesn't occur to most people and it's a tough sell politically)
posted by ripley_ at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2015 [26 favorites]
Inner burbs? More like exurbs.
posted by wintersweet at 9:42 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by wintersweet at 9:42 PM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
It isn't the food, or the pretentiousness that kills me - though those things carry daggers all their own as well... it is the homogeneity that cities seem to be throwing themselves towards. Its like everybody listened to that Henry Rollins spoken word set where he talks about how everyone wants to mimic Friends where they all go to their perfect job, then the perfect coffee shop, then go on to their perfect lives and everything they do is cookie cutter perfect and identical to one another. And then missed his point and ran straight at that life... There's more than just the shock factor of seeing some kid with enough money to pierce more body parts than you think they have. It is about learning to coexist with strangers and tolerate difference. Gentrification of the cities is like taking the suburbs and bringing them in... particularly the sucky parts of the suburbs where everything - everything is the same...
I dunno... food in particular is a cultural tradition. You can mimic tradition but you can't recreate it in a corporate sterilized restaurant. So instead we're left with everyone trying to make the same restaurant - and lying to themselves that they aren't... foams, pea tendrils, bah... would you really rather that, or a kickass plantain and cuban?
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:19 PM on October 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I dunno... food in particular is a cultural tradition. You can mimic tradition but you can't recreate it in a corporate sterilized restaurant. So instead we're left with everyone trying to make the same restaurant - and lying to themselves that they aren't... foams, pea tendrils, bah... would you really rather that, or a kickass plantain and cuban?
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:19 PM on October 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I worry about this from the other point of view; that of food production. My home state of Tasmania has, over recent years, been cultivating a kind of organic/high-end/specialty agriculture/food culture for the purposes, mostly, of tourism. A "foodie paradise". It's also Australia's most impoverished state, with the highest unemployment. High-end value-added agriculture, hopefully, might be successful in bringing a bit of money into the state. Hopefully. Because the locals sure as hell can't afford to pay $7.50 for a loaf of artisanal wood-oven baked spelt sourdough or $8.95 a kg for heirloom tomatoes if that's going to be the sort of agriculture we focus on.
posted by Jimbob at 10:51 PM on October 1, 2015
posted by Jimbob at 10:51 PM on October 1, 2015
Of all the things that are precious about San Francisco, smell is not among the attributes I would mind losing.
posted by politikitty at 10:53 PM on October 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by politikitty at 10:53 PM on October 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
I object to this use of food aesthetics as a polite proxy for economic inequality. It's false consciousness like whoa.
The "vibrant" cuisines found among historically poorer immigrant enclaves are not essentially superior—or even necessarily more diverse—than the gentrifitastic options that replace them.
The problem in, say, SF's Mission isn't that there are fewer cheap burrito places and more swank bars. The problem is that rent has skyrocketed to Manhattan levels, while the prosperity that drives that increase hasn't benefitted longer term, less privileged residents (at least not proportionally).
The gentrified businesses feel gross not because they are aesthetically inferior, but because they represent an ugly economic reality. Let's keep our eyes on the prize: higher taxes on the rich, lower taxes on the poor, more spending on things poor people need, etc, etc. And as several commenters have pointed out, for Christ's sake stop the prohibitions on density.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:59 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
The "vibrant" cuisines found among historically poorer immigrant enclaves are not essentially superior—or even necessarily more diverse—than the gentrifitastic options that replace them.
The problem in, say, SF's Mission isn't that there are fewer cheap burrito places and more swank bars. The problem is that rent has skyrocketed to Manhattan levels, while the prosperity that drives that increase hasn't benefitted longer term, less privileged residents (at least not proportionally).
The gentrified businesses feel gross not because they are aesthetically inferior, but because they represent an ugly economic reality. Let's keep our eyes on the prize: higher taxes on the rich, lower taxes on the poor, more spending on things poor people need, etc, etc. And as several commenters have pointed out, for Christ's sake stop the prohibitions on density.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:59 PM on October 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
Richies in LA, stay on the west side. Thank you.
posted by persona au gratin at 11:27 PM on October 1, 2015
posted by persona au gratin at 11:27 PM on October 1, 2015
Losing poor people from a city is upsetting because they take their delicious cheap food with them? Not because it's inhumane and disgusting that you must be this rich (gestures with hand) to live in your city? Just because you're going to miss the part of them you can literally consume, huh? Okay then.
posted by gingerest at 11:39 PM on October 1, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 11:39 PM on October 1, 2015 [20 favorites]
I know. They're already all over Silver Lake and Los Feliz and are about to conquer Highland and Echo Park. Yes, but they don't drive like the entitled assholes you get on the west side.
Ok, fine, richies. You get LA. But you'll never take away our West Covina!
posted by persona au gratin at 11:41 PM on October 1, 2015
Ok, fine, richies. You get LA. But you'll never take away our West Covina!
posted by persona au gratin at 11:41 PM on October 1, 2015
"nowadays you have to go to the Bronx or Harlem to get the real food of "back in the day" NYC"
Sure, if you ignore all the diverse food everywhere else in the city.
posted by I-baLL at 2:02 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sure, if you ignore all the diverse food everywhere else in the city.
posted by I-baLL at 2:02 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Manhattan is the new Dubai
Dubai is the mega-spectacle of Ba(udri)llardian terriblisma writ large, but the realistic analogue is more like Zürich. These days: super-wealthy, clean, bland, aggressively boring, though it used to rock (about a hundred years ago, the Cabaret Voltaire, which was to Dada what CBGB was to punk rock, was there).
posted by acb at 2:17 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dubai is the mega-spectacle of Ba(udri)llardian terriblisma writ large, but the realistic analogue is more like Zürich. These days: super-wealthy, clean, bland, aggressively boring, though it used to rock (about a hundred years ago, the Cabaret Voltaire, which was to Dada what CBGB was to punk rock, was there).
posted by acb at 2:17 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Where do the non-wealthy go...to the suburbs?
posted by Postroad
Yes. Basically the inner burbs
posted by JPD
They go to Portland and Phoenix, mostly.
posted by MillMan
The fleeing artist classes are going to second tier cities that are starting to transform. Seattle is beginning to leak artists to Missoula and Spokane. Vancouver creatives are fleeing to Calgary. I have no clue where the ones in SF are going.
Portland is just about to tip over into something different if it's not careful. And Phoenix is doomed, and was a hellhole when I lived there over a decade ago and I see no evidence that it has changed.
I know, non-wealthy != artistic types, but along with the food, it's the funky folks who give character to a city.
posted by hippybear at 2:58 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad
Yes. Basically the inner burbs
posted by JPD
They go to Portland and Phoenix, mostly.
posted by MillMan
The fleeing artist classes are going to second tier cities that are starting to transform. Seattle is beginning to leak artists to Missoula and Spokane. Vancouver creatives are fleeing to Calgary. I have no clue where the ones in SF are going.
Portland is just about to tip over into something different if it's not careful. And Phoenix is doomed, and was a hellhole when I lived there over a decade ago and I see no evidence that it has changed.
I know, non-wealthy != artistic types, but along with the food, it's the funky folks who give character to a city.
posted by hippybear at 2:58 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Jesus, people are really reading this in a super shitty way. It might not be the most eloquently stated, but i took it in the way that "i realized how much the culture had died and how completely people poorer than me had been pushed out when..." which is a common sentiment i've heard analogies made for, and just generally described so much in seattle in the past 10, and especially 5 years.
I guess i don't object to the proxy? I'm willing to assume good faith here.
I've watched this exact scenario play out in every neighborhood i've lived in seattle. Now you pretty much go out of the main neighborhoods to get not even good cheap food, but cheap food at all. Even fast food restaurants have been almost entirely pushed out to the margins.
This isn't just about well off yuppies lamenting that they can't buy a tasty cheapo gyro or whatever, it's about what you can buy when you're poor and you don't have time to cook. When i was broke for a long time, both when i was working shitty never better than part time wage-thefting service industry jobs and during the following spell of unemployed ennui, shit like $2.50 bahn mis was what kept me going. Ditto for when i had no working stove, and a criminal landlord.
There's not a lot of calories in a $14 tiny artisinal sandwich, and it's also just a bad value when you don't have a lot of money. It might be super tasty, and full of locally sourced ingredients, but ugh.
I don't really know where i'm going with this, but it bugged me that no one had even touched on the fact that it isn't just that tasty "hip" poor people food is gone from areas, it's that food poor people can buy as take out is also gone. This is the same as the 7-11/bodega problem mentioned above, and "grungey" local grocery stores or downmarket chains being pushed out to open whole foods and shit.
Gentrification pushing people out isn't just about rent, it's also about your local buying power getting fucked.
I mean, what was said originally is also true, in that the places replacing previous food shops are either generically upmarket fartsinal crap(wood fired bagels with farmers market toppings!) or chains, and that the old places are just vaporizing not moving... but it's a side effect, at least to me, of the main point that the new places opening might as well have signs on the windows saying "you can't afford anything in here!"
I wonder if they secretly worry that they're just the vanguard for the same shit that ruined San Francisco.
I don't think they care. Because they can buy real estate while it's comparatively very cheap, sit down and have their fun, then when it gets boring cash in for $$$$$$$ when the party is pooped and go buy in somewhere else(or move outside of town there, or somewhere else, and get a decent place while also having some money in the bank/to invest. or rent their place out)
posted by emptythought at 3:54 AM on October 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
I guess i don't object to the proxy? I'm willing to assume good faith here.
I've watched this exact scenario play out in every neighborhood i've lived in seattle. Now you pretty much go out of the main neighborhoods to get not even good cheap food, but cheap food at all. Even fast food restaurants have been almost entirely pushed out to the margins.
This isn't just about well off yuppies lamenting that they can't buy a tasty cheapo gyro or whatever, it's about what you can buy when you're poor and you don't have time to cook. When i was broke for a long time, both when i was working shitty never better than part time wage-thefting service industry jobs and during the following spell of unemployed ennui, shit like $2.50 bahn mis was what kept me going. Ditto for when i had no working stove, and a criminal landlord.
There's not a lot of calories in a $14 tiny artisinal sandwich, and it's also just a bad value when you don't have a lot of money. It might be super tasty, and full of locally sourced ingredients, but ugh.
I don't really know where i'm going with this, but it bugged me that no one had even touched on the fact that it isn't just that tasty "hip" poor people food is gone from areas, it's that food poor people can buy as take out is also gone. This is the same as the 7-11/bodega problem mentioned above, and "grungey" local grocery stores or downmarket chains being pushed out to open whole foods and shit.
Gentrification pushing people out isn't just about rent, it's also about your local buying power getting fucked.
I mean, what was said originally is also true, in that the places replacing previous food shops are either generically upmarket fartsinal crap(wood fired bagels with farmers market toppings!) or chains, and that the old places are just vaporizing not moving... but it's a side effect, at least to me, of the main point that the new places opening might as well have signs on the windows saying "you can't afford anything in here!"
I wonder if they secretly worry that they're just the vanguard for the same shit that ruined San Francisco.
I don't think they care. Because they can buy real estate while it's comparatively very cheap, sit down and have their fun, then when it gets boring cash in for $$$$$$$ when the party is pooped and go buy in somewhere else(or move outside of town there, or somewhere else, and get a decent place while also having some money in the bank/to invest. or rent their place out)
posted by emptythought at 3:54 AM on October 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
If they kill off our bodegas, we will not only lose an interesting diversity of food, the money previously earned by small businessowners will also be siphoned off to megacorporations.
Bodegas in New York serve diverse food? Most of the ones I've been to have the exact same menu. Egg sandwiches on a roll in the morning. Sandwiches during the day. Boar's Head sign. Maybe a hot buffet of various things at lunchtime, sometimes with some vaguely Korean food making an appearance.
posted by pravit at 4:13 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Bodegas in New York serve diverse food? Most of the ones I've been to have the exact same menu. Egg sandwiches on a roll in the morning. Sandwiches during the day. Boar's Head sign. Maybe a hot buffet of various things at lunchtime, sometimes with some vaguely Korean food making an appearance.
posted by pravit at 4:13 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Man I can't even explain how fucked up the idea of some place getting "too cool" is. Like you realize if you frame it that way the only solution is to actively ruin the good things about your city? Rather than trying to give everyone access to the cool things?
I don't understand this comment. 'Cool' is not the same as 'liveable.' I am all for my city decreasing crime, improving its schools, and generally becoming more vibrant. It doesn't need to become 'cool' to do that.
I'm NOT for my city becoming the next new 'hot' place that attracts an influx of rent-increasing people from Boston and NYC and a bunch of swanky, shiny mainstream-geared development.
posted by geegollygosh at 4:39 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Basically when your food culture shifts from "hey we make a great sandwich for cheap" to "we make The Best Sandwich with The Best Ingredients and it's 18 bucks" things are done.
Food culture shit is such a nightmare of diminishing returns where going from an item of quality 8.5/10 to an item of quality 9/10 is a massive jump in price. I'd rather have a world of good that I can afford than a world of great out of reach.
posted by Ferreous at 5:59 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Food culture shit is such a nightmare of diminishing returns where going from an item of quality 8.5/10 to an item of quality 9/10 is a massive jump in price. I'd rather have a world of good that I can afford than a world of great out of reach.
posted by Ferreous at 5:59 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
New York is suffering a plague of 7-11s.
Interesting because my neighborhood in Chicago lost a 7-11 as they wisely got out before an upmarket grocery store goes in across the street next year
Some people in my building actually lamented its loss as it was the only place within their idea of walking distance that sold fresh fruit (their idea of walking distance being about 500 feet or so).
posted by srboisvert at 6:08 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Interesting because my neighborhood in Chicago lost a 7-11 as they wisely got out before an upmarket grocery store goes in across the street next year
Some people in my building actually lamented its loss as it was the only place within their idea of walking distance that sold fresh fruit (their idea of walking distance being about 500 feet or so).
posted by srboisvert at 6:08 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
When I saw this article, I immediately thought of CheeseBoy. They're a food kiosk at Boston South Station that sells ONLY grilled cheese sandwiches (though in all fairness, I'm positive they're well under $18). Yep. Nothing else.
And yeah, this basically Cambridge exactly. At my last job, all of the lunch places within walking distance were pricey chains, where it was not unusual to ask $13 for a sandwich or salad. Literally no reasonably-priced small businesses/mom-and-pop places.
posted by Delia at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And yeah, this basically Cambridge exactly. At my last job, all of the lunch places within walking distance were pricey chains, where it was not unusual to ask $13 for a sandwich or salad. Literally no reasonably-priced small businesses/mom-and-pop places.
posted by Delia at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'll be honest though, anyone that wants to come out of Boston and make a few awesome restaurants in Marlborough, MA can gentrify the heck out of this city. For the locals they think of the restaurants as a B+ and are happy with them. For someone that used to cook at Central Street and No. 9 the non-chain food is a C- (with some
caveats). The Brazillian Grills are ... numerous and cheap. While the quality of product is questionable, and the variation is laughable, and the health factor is non-exist to the point where I consider the food 'adventurous but not interesting' the real estate cost is still enough to ruin your restaurant in two years instead of three. Think of it as an untapped resource in how to burn through your cash and give up on your dream restaurant quickly.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:44 AM on October 2, 2015
caveats). The Brazillian Grills are ... numerous and cheap. While the quality of product is questionable, and the variation is laughable, and the health factor is non-exist to the point where I consider the food 'adventurous but not interesting' the real estate cost is still enough to ruin your restaurant in two years instead of three. Think of it as an untapped resource in how to burn through your cash and give up on your dream restaurant quickly.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:44 AM on October 2, 2015
great food anytime in ABQ, please stay away...
posted by judson at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by judson at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fleeing artist classes are going to second tier cities that are starting to transform. Seattle is beginning to leak artists to Missoula and Spokane. Vancouver creatives are fleeing to Calgary. I have no clue where the ones in SF are going.
London people have been going to Brighton for a while, but now Brighton's almost as expensive as London, and the non-wealthy are being displaced. Places like Hastings and Margate are mentioned, or (if in grimmer tones), Luton or Stevenage or somewhere similarly inclined to drain the will to live, especially when coupled with packed trains to and from London. Bristol's apparently good for the creative types, though.
posted by acb at 7:15 AM on October 2, 2015
London people have been going to Brighton for a while, but now Brighton's almost as expensive as London, and the non-wealthy are being displaced. Places like Hastings and Margate are mentioned, or (if in grimmer tones), Luton or Stevenage or somewhere similarly inclined to drain the will to live, especially when coupled with packed trains to and from London. Bristol's apparently good for the creative types, though.
posted by acb at 7:15 AM on October 2, 2015
This is starting to happen in Denver. I thought it was the legalized marijuana but there is far too much economic growth happening here for it to just be that. The rent prices are through the roof. Home prices are insanity. It really pisses me off.
posted by tunewell at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tunewell at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find it difficult to take any article seriously when it's written by an adult who is being paid money to refer to food as "tasty yummies." I mean, really, what is that all about?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, really, what is that all about?
The infantilization of our culture. Feh.
posted by djeo at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The infantilization of our culture. Feh.
posted by djeo at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ok, fine, richies. You get LA. But you'll never take away our West Covina!
Ahhh, West Covina, home of the methburger. (It's meth served in a meth pipe)
posted by sexyrobot at 8:47 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ahhh, West Covina, home of the methburger. (It's meth served in a meth pipe)
posted by sexyrobot at 8:47 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The infantilization of our culture. Feh.
And the privilege inherent in extending one's childhood, or aspects of it, throughout as much of one's life as possible. On one hand, a 32yo designer-bearded hipbro can gorge on sugar cereals and spout baby talk without even having a toddler to amuse; OTOH, sweatshop children/child soldiers harvesting coltan for smartphones/8-year-old black “teenagers” gunned down by jittery cops.
posted by acb at 8:51 AM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
And the privilege inherent in extending one's childhood, or aspects of it, throughout as much of one's life as possible. On one hand, a 32yo designer-bearded hipbro can gorge on sugar cereals and spout baby talk without even having a toddler to amuse; OTOH, sweatshop children/child soldiers harvesting coltan for smartphones/8-year-old black “teenagers” gunned down by jittery cops.
posted by acb at 8:51 AM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another day in paradise here in Fairport.........oops! I've said too much.
posted by valkane at 8:54 AM on October 2, 2015
posted by valkane at 8:54 AM on October 2, 2015
Are we sure this isn't viral marketing for the latest South Park?
posted by Mezentian at 9:15 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Mezentian at 9:15 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
emptythought's take on this is basically how I interpreted the article. It's not so much that "gentrification only sucks when I can no longer eat poor/"ethnic" peoples' cheap food" but rather a bigger symptom of neighborhoods that are changing.
This is how I think about it in relation to a neighborhood I lived in 5 years ago: rent was cheap, lots of artist types living around, still a decent amount of the original population living in the neighborhood (although you could see the demographics changing rapidly), and lots of locally-owned businesses that had been part of the neighborhood for years. Gentrification had been setting in for a decade but hadn't quite reached the levels it was at now. I could get legitimately great, authentic BBQ from this dude down the street, but his building wasn't exactly the best looking one and I doubt anyone from the Food Channel was going to roll in there to do a special, and the white bread family definitely was not going to go in there with their kid. No, they were going to go to the place next door that was new and trendy and looked nice and also has brisket even if it wasn't that great, it's still considered one of the best restaurants in the city.
So to me this isn't just about the consumers of a neighborhood, it's about the people that made neighborhoods great before they were pushed out. I patronized a lot of "local" food places in that neighborhood, and I still make a point to go to them before anywhere else. See, that's sort of an issue in and of itself: the hip foodie publications will call the 3-year-old restaurant that serves some new version of BBQ a "local" restaurant, which makes it sound fancier and more appetizing, but they won't talk about the guy on the block who has been serving BBQ in that spot for 20 years, whose family has lived there his entire life. That's the real local.
That guy isn't there anymore. I don't know where he went. He has no Facebook. The local food magazines didn't care to write about him so I would know if he moved or just went out of business.
posted by gucci mane at 10:05 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is how I think about it in relation to a neighborhood I lived in 5 years ago: rent was cheap, lots of artist types living around, still a decent amount of the original population living in the neighborhood (although you could see the demographics changing rapidly), and lots of locally-owned businesses that had been part of the neighborhood for years. Gentrification had been setting in for a decade but hadn't quite reached the levels it was at now. I could get legitimately great, authentic BBQ from this dude down the street, but his building wasn't exactly the best looking one and I doubt anyone from the Food Channel was going to roll in there to do a special, and the white bread family definitely was not going to go in there with their kid. No, they were going to go to the place next door that was new and trendy and looked nice and also has brisket even if it wasn't that great, it's still considered one of the best restaurants in the city.
So to me this isn't just about the consumers of a neighborhood, it's about the people that made neighborhoods great before they were pushed out. I patronized a lot of "local" food places in that neighborhood, and I still make a point to go to them before anywhere else. See, that's sort of an issue in and of itself: the hip foodie publications will call the 3-year-old restaurant that serves some new version of BBQ a "local" restaurant, which makes it sound fancier and more appetizing, but they won't talk about the guy on the block who has been serving BBQ in that spot for 20 years, whose family has lived there his entire life. That's the real local.
That guy isn't there anymore. I don't know where he went. He has no Facebook. The local food magazines didn't care to write about him so I would know if he moved or just went out of business.
posted by gucci mane at 10:05 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
There was no stick, but there are fuckloads of NYers in Portland and San Francisco who love it. They love it here in the west and at home. These particular New Yorkers are really quite friendly. They're a talkative bunch.
I have never heard as much about how awesome New York is as I did from my fellow Miami residents when I lived there. "And yet," I would respond.
posted by phearlez at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2015
I have never heard as much about how awesome New York is as I did from my fellow Miami residents when I lived there. "And yet," I would respond.
posted by phearlez at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2015
The fleeing artist classes are going to second tier cities that are starting to transform. Seattle is beginning to leak artists to Missoula and Spokane. Vancouver creatives are fleeing to Calgary. I have no clue where the ones in SF are going.
Portland is just about to tip over into something different if it's not careful.
I agree with you about the second tier cities, as well as some of the "artist classes" or whatever Richard Florida called them moving to even smaller places like Bend or Port Townsend.
I disagree about Portland, in that I would say that it has already tipped over into a very different place than it was some years ago. Don't get me wrong, it is better in many ways, but it has also changed economically as well in ways that just aren't viable if you aren't getting rent money from your parents or living on the proceeds of the sale of your San Francisco house.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:01 PM on October 2, 2015
Portland is just about to tip over into something different if it's not careful.
I agree with you about the second tier cities, as well as some of the "artist classes" or whatever Richard Florida called them moving to even smaller places like Bend or Port Townsend.
I disagree about Portland, in that I would say that it has already tipped over into a very different place than it was some years ago. Don't get me wrong, it is better in many ways, but it has also changed economically as well in ways that just aren't viable if you aren't getting rent money from your parents or living on the proceeds of the sale of your San Francisco house.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:01 PM on October 2, 2015
Man I can't even explain how fucked up the idea of some place getting "too cool" is. Like you realize if you frame it that way the only solution is to actively ruin the good things about your city? Rather than trying to give everyone access to the cool things?
The "too cool" thing part of the issue for pretentious "SWPL" types, but another part of it is simple access. That little place you went to that 'only' you knew about is awesome for it's $0.99 tacos and $2 margaritas ... then every other hipster SWPL goes there and the line is around the block and the service quality goes down.
Crowding happens when places (cities, or the businesses within them) get popular, and it's not necessarily a gain.
posted by theorique at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015
The "too cool" thing part of the issue for pretentious "SWPL" types, but another part of it is simple access. That little place you went to that 'only' you knew about is awesome for it's $0.99 tacos and $2 margaritas ... then every other hipster SWPL goes there and the line is around the block and the service quality goes down.
Crowding happens when places (cities, or the businesses within them) get popular, and it's not necessarily a gain.
posted by theorique at 5:49 PM on October 13, 2015
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