Men have right to hit on women
January 10, 2018 1:25 AM Subscribe
In one of those polémiques the French media love so much, 100 women published an open letter in the daily newspaper Le Monde condemning the risk of "puritanism" sparked by recent sexual harassment scandals. French actress Catherine Deneuve, perhaps the most famous among the the signatories, insists that #BalanceTonPorc (Call out your pig) is akin to a witch hunt.
In reply to which, a very strongly worded piece was published this morning in French only)
To be continued...
In reply to which, a very strongly worded piece was published this morning in French only)
To be continued...
There's also a quiz with references to French law, which could be pretty enlightening (French only unfortunately).
posted by nicolin at 2:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nicolin at 2:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Rape is a crime, but trying to seduce someone, even persistently or clumsily, is not"
In s professional setting, that's sexual harassment, which is grounds for dismissal at least. So perhaps not a crime, but certainly not okay, certainly not a "right".
Women who've done well out of the patriarchy, out of their patriarchal bargains are invested in the continuation of the system. Quelle surprise.
posted by Dysk at 2:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [107 favorites]
In s professional setting, that's sexual harassment, which is grounds for dismissal at least. So perhaps not a crime, but certainly not okay, certainly not a "right".
Women who've done well out of the patriarchy, out of their patriarchal bargains are invested in the continuation of the system. Quelle surprise.
posted by Dysk at 2:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [107 favorites]
The machine translation of the response is pretty clunky, especially the pronouns, but understandable.
The signatories are wrong. This is not a difference in degree between dragging and harassing but a difference in nature. Violence is not "increased seduction". On one side, we consider the other as his equal, respecting his desires, whoever they are. On the other, as an object available, without making any case of his own wishes or his consent.
posted by Miss Cellania at 2:40 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
The signatories are wrong. This is not a difference in degree between dragging and harassing but a difference in nature. Violence is not "increased seduction". On one side, we consider the other as his equal, respecting his desires, whoever they are. On the other, as an object available, without making any case of his own wishes or his consent.
posted by Miss Cellania at 2:40 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
The quiz is very interesting and there were quite a few surprises for me. Stalking a woman in the street or subway apparently doesn't count as sexual harassment in France, merely 'lourd' (which seems to mean something like 'gross'). Complimenting a colleague at an office party on her nice cleavage ('décolleté le plus joli') also apparently falls short of sexual harassment, and 'it would be difficult for a boss to intervene because these remarks are made outside working hours'.
I only got 12/20, and the quiz informs me that I need to try harder to understand 'the boundary between seduction and sexual harassment' ('la frontière entre séduction et harcèlement sexuel').
posted by verstegan at 2:45 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I only got 12/20, and the quiz informs me that I need to try harder to understand 'the boundary between seduction and sexual harassment' ('la frontière entre séduction et harcèlement sexuel').
posted by verstegan at 2:45 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
It’s also ironic that this particular subset of French people like to invoke “you don’t understand our culture” as an excuse for tolerance of sexual harrassment. Meanwhile, I bet they are all in favour of the burka ban and robustly critical of arguments based on respect for culture in that context. Respect for women’s rights trump respect for culture, unless it’s French culture.
posted by Aravis76 at 2:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [60 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 2:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [60 favorites]
Guardian Australia’s Van Badham had a good response.
“”Sexual liberty” is the right to determine your own sexual behaviour, without coercion. Dare I suggest that those of us who have lived without power and status perhaps understand this with a greater keenness of experience than those who have?”
posted by taff at 3:07 AM on January 10, 2018 [44 favorites]
“”Sexual liberty” is the right to determine your own sexual behaviour, without coercion. Dare I suggest that those of us who have lived without power and status perhaps understand this with a greater keenness of experience than those who have?”
posted by taff at 3:07 AM on January 10, 2018 [44 favorites]
Yeah my experiences with men in Paris were shocking.
The only interaction that didn’t feel sleazy was the Italian man managing the queues at the Eiffel Tower who broke out into full on operatic mode and sang to me in Italian.
The other dudes though? It was not good at all.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
The only interaction that didn’t feel sleazy was the Italian man managing the queues at the Eiffel Tower who broke out into full on operatic mode and sang to me in Italian.
The other dudes though? It was not good at all.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
No, it's not puritanical to want to do your job without hearing from the boners of every man in attendance.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 4:19 AM on January 10, 2018 [75 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 4:19 AM on January 10, 2018 [75 favorites]
Women who've done well out of the patriarchy, out of their patriarchal bargains are invested in the continuation of the system.
They don’t even need to have done particularly well. The cost of acknowledging the damage to themselves, or that they’ve helped inflict on others, just needs to be too painful.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:19 AM on January 10, 2018 [43 favorites]
They don’t even need to have done particularly well. The cost of acknowledging the damage to themselves, or that they’ve helped inflict on others, just needs to be too painful.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:19 AM on January 10, 2018 [43 favorites]
They're using the phrase "une liberté d’importuner" which I think was translated in this thread's title as a "right to hit on [women]", but which Google Translate renders literally as "a freedom to annoy". French dictionary definition of importuner, Google translation of that page.
The last two sentences:
Either way, the response linked in the OP, which Miss Cellania posted a machine translation link for, rightly denounces these supposed responsibilities:
The last two sentences:
Notre liberté intérieure est inviolable. Et cette liberté que nous chérissons ne va pas sans risques ni sans responsabilités.This seems like a completely bizarre and Orwellian thing to say—you can't have inner freedom without incurring risks?—but Googling "liberté intérieure" there seems to be some kind of religious connotation, so I expect it probably doesn't work too well as a literal translation? Maybe it's more like the risks and responsibilities of "intemperance" or "immoderation" or something like that?
Our inner freedom is inviolable. And this freedom that we cherish is not without risks or responsibilities.
Either way, the response linked in the OP, which Miss Cellania posted a machine translation link for, rightly denounces these supposed responsibilities:
"C’est de la responsabilité des femmes." Les signataires de la tribune parlent de l’éducation à donner aux petites filles pour qu’elles ne se laissent pas intimider. Les femmes sont donc désignées comme responsables de ne pas être agressées. Quand est-ce qu’on posera la question de la responsabilité des hommes de ne pas violer ou agresser ? Quid de l’éducation des garçons ?posted by XMLicious at 4:19 AM on January 10, 2018 [34 favorites]
Les femmes sont des êtres humains. Comme les autres. Nous avons droit au respect. Nous avons le droit fondamental de ne pas être insultées, sifflées, agressées, violées. Nous avons le droit fondamental de vivre nos vies en sécurité. En France, aux Etats-Unis, au Sénégal, en Thaïlande ou au Brésil : ce n’est aujourd’hui pas le cas. Nulle part.
"It's women's responsibility." The signatories of the forum talk about the education to be given to little girls so that they do not let themselves be intimidated. Women are therefore designated as responsible for not being assaulted. When will we ask the question of the responsibility of men not to rape or assault? What about boys' education?
Women are human beings. Like the others. We are entitled to respect. We have the fundamental right not to be insulted, whistled, assaulted, raped. We have the fundamental right to live our lives in safety. In France, the United States, Senegal, Thailand or Brazil: this is not the case today. Nowhere.
The quiz is very interesting and there were quite a few surprises for me. Stalking a woman in the street or subway apparently doesn't count as sexual harassment in France, merely 'lourd' (which seems to mean something like 'gross'). Complimenting a colleague at an office party on her nice cleavage ('décolleté le plus joli') also apparently falls short of sexual harassment, and 'it would be difficult for a boss to intervene because these remarks are made outside working hours'.
Well when you remove all context (which is given in the quiz), it might sound surprising, when in fact it's quite similar to US law. So let's look at the actual context, shall we:
The only example where that décolleté compliment is not sexual harassment is again specifically defined as being one-off. Plus the lawyer specifies that if it's repeated, and if it's talked about on social media, it can in fact be prosecuted.
Seriously, there are at least half a dozen examples of genuine, prosecutable harassment in that quiz and two that aren't were cherry-picked and misrepresented here. Not cool.
FWIW I got 20/20.
Gallic eye roll at the letter trying to equate flirting with harassment (in order to minimize harassment). Not the same thing, and even French law agrees.
The response is being widely shared here (in France), and I'm glad for that.
posted by fraula at 4:51 AM on January 10, 2018 [60 favorites]
Well when you remove all context (which is given in the quiz), it might sound surprising, when in fact it's quite similar to US law. So let's look at the actual context, shall we:
Vous suivez une femme dans la rue ou dans le métro.Then there are several examples of repeated unwanted compliments in the office that are in fact sexual harassment, so nice way to choose the worst framing of French people I suppose? You guys realize how many fewer French people are participating on MeFi lately by the way?
Translation: You follow a woman in the street or subway.
Explanation: "Si cette situation ne se produit qu'une fois, il ne s'agit pas de harcèlement sexuel, répond l'avocat Christophe Noël. Elle est toutefois extrêmement oppressante."
Translation: "If this situation only happens once, it is not sexual harassment. It is, however, extremely oppressive."
The only example where that décolleté compliment is not sexual harassment is again specifically defined as being one-off. Plus the lawyer specifies that if it's repeated, and if it's talked about on social media, it can in fact be prosecuted.
Seriously, there are at least half a dozen examples of genuine, prosecutable harassment in that quiz and two that aren't were cherry-picked and misrepresented here. Not cool.
FWIW I got 20/20.
Gallic eye roll at the letter trying to equate flirting with harassment (in order to minimize harassment). Not the same thing, and even French law agrees.
The response is being widely shared here (in France), and I'm glad for that.
posted by fraula at 4:51 AM on January 10, 2018 [60 favorites]
Flirting. Is it right or is it wrong?
Sexual harrassment. Is it right or is it wrong?
How can we tell the difference?
??
??????
??????????
I guess we'll never know
posted by karmachameleon at 5:06 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Sexual harrassment. Is it right or is it wrong?
How can we tell the difference?
??
??????
??????????
I guess we'll never know
posted by karmachameleon at 5:06 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
It’s also ironic that this particular subset of French people like to invoke “you don’t understand our culture” as an excuse for tolerance of sexual harrassment. Meanwhile, I bet they are all in favour of the burka ban and robustly critical of arguments based on respect for culture in that context. Respect for women’s rights trump respect for culture, unless it’s French culture.
This was one--and it continues to be--huge issue that drove me bonkers when I lived in Quebec. I think I had posted about all the batshit stuff Pauline Marois' old gov't tried to pass. But I know it hasn't changed much even with the current gov't.
posted by Kitteh at 5:15 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
This was one--and it continues to be--huge issue that drove me bonkers when I lived in Quebec. I think I had posted about all the batshit stuff Pauline Marois' old gov't tried to pass. But I know it hasn't changed much even with the current gov't.
posted by Kitteh at 5:15 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've wondered how the current women's movement is impacting hiring women with the view of avoiding it when possible. There are laws about discrimination that are easy to get around.
posted by waving at 5:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 5:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I edited my comment because the first part seemed way too fighty.
posted by Kitteh at 5:19 AM on January 10, 2018
posted by Kitteh at 5:19 AM on January 10, 2018
Mod note: A few deleted. Dumb "Europe just can't help it" derail deleted. Saulgoodman, we've talked to you specifically, clearly, and at length about not doing this kind of thing. No more.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Home was in Switzerland, working across Europe for just under a decade. My generalisation is that western Europe was pretty good about this stuff. I've been away from it for a while, so things have changed?
I'd read this article earlier today. Shook my head, decided to not parse through the implications too much, and didn't think much more about it. Then there's this thread. I clicked, and read and remembered a night walking back to my hotel from a dinner alone on the left bank. I was followed and approached on a bridge by a man that decided I should appreciate his advances. "You have small breasts, I can make them bigger for you", then he shoved his frame into me. I pushed back and separated making it clear that I would injure him as much as possible if he didn't turn away.
I'd honestly not thought about this incident for years and years. And I'm angry and ashamed again.
Sexual harassment is not consensual. It's just wrong.
posted by michswiss at 5:50 AM on January 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
I'd read this article earlier today. Shook my head, decided to not parse through the implications too much, and didn't think much more about it. Then there's this thread. I clicked, and read and remembered a night walking back to my hotel from a dinner alone on the left bank. I was followed and approached on a bridge by a man that decided I should appreciate his advances. "You have small breasts, I can make them bigger for you", then he shoved his frame into me. I pushed back and separated making it clear that I would injure him as much as possible if he didn't turn away.
I'd honestly not thought about this incident for years and years. And I'm angry and ashamed again.
Flirting is consensual. Right or wrong is between the two participants.
Flirting. Is it right or is it wrong?
Sexual harrassment. Is it right or is it wrong?
How can we tell the difference?
Sexual harassment is not consensual. It's just wrong.
posted by michswiss at 5:50 AM on January 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
How much of this is generational? I'm not familiar with most of the women who signed the letter, but Deneuve is 74, and some of the other signatories seem to be in their 60s and 70s. In the US, I've seen some backlash to #MeToo from women of that generation who feel like they benefited from the sexual revolution and younger women need to get a thicker skin and learn how to manage men, the way they did. I'm tempted to say something snarky about how Millennials and their avocado toast are killing seduction. I think it's a dumb perspective, informed by nostalgia and by the fact that most of those women are not at a place in their careers where they actually have to deal with this stuff, but that is a narrative that's out there in the US, as well as in France.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [41 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [41 favorites]
Oh those millennials! They ruin everything fun! No more getting my boobs honked while dining at Applebee's wearing a diamond ring! Get off my lawn, you kids!
ArbitraryAndCapricious: I think you are right about this being a generational gap rather than a cultural one. I have had the exact same experience as you, seeing older (60's and up) women, especially well-off white women (looking at you, Indivisible Contra Costa facebook group), say things like young women need to get thicker skins, a little cat-calling or butt-grabbing is no big deal, That's Just The Way Men Are, they're just appreciating beauty and femininity! And the hate unleashed on Kirsten Gillibrand, my god.
And outside of the purely gender related stuff there is a heaping helping of uphill in the snow both ways, old-economy-Stephanie stuff. "I was the only woman in X department back in the 80's, and I paid my dues and sucked it up! Young women need to grow a spine and quit being special snowflakes!"
As I see it, the various Catherines are part and parcel of this phenomenon, especially since young French women have "Call Out Your Pig" (love that phrase!) as their #MeToo. Older, well-off women who made their living in sexist industries who now think that Kids These Days Are Ruining Our Fun.
I was bracing myself for the usual Puritan-shaming (what Tara Burton describes in this Vox article about Bill Clinton) but once again, hooray Metafilter, this is why I love it here.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
ArbitraryAndCapricious: I think you are right about this being a generational gap rather than a cultural one. I have had the exact same experience as you, seeing older (60's and up) women, especially well-off white women (looking at you, Indivisible Contra Costa facebook group), say things like young women need to get thicker skins, a little cat-calling or butt-grabbing is no big deal, That's Just The Way Men Are, they're just appreciating beauty and femininity! And the hate unleashed on Kirsten Gillibrand, my god.
And outside of the purely gender related stuff there is a heaping helping of uphill in the snow both ways, old-economy-Stephanie stuff. "I was the only woman in X department back in the 80's, and I paid my dues and sucked it up! Young women need to grow a spine and quit being special snowflakes!"
As I see it, the various Catherines are part and parcel of this phenomenon, especially since young French women have "Call Out Your Pig" (love that phrase!) as their #MeToo. Older, well-off women who made their living in sexist industries who now think that Kids These Days Are Ruining Our Fun.
I was bracing myself for the usual Puritan-shaming (what Tara Burton describes in this Vox article about Bill Clinton) but once again, hooray Metafilter, this is why I love it here.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
Do women have the right to hit back? I mean a left hook, not a proposition. I am an older American woman, and I applaud the "Me too" movement all over the world. The sexual revolution was all about men using women, including the political Left in the 60s, not just in high powered industries.
posted by mermayd at 6:26 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by mermayd at 6:26 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's not a witch hunt if there are actually witches.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:27 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 6:27 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
Sexual harassment is not consensual. It's just wrong.
And very different from "flirting." It is really disturbing that adults in 2018 cannot tell the difference between abuse and flirting. I do not care about "culture" -- that's merely sanctioned insanity turned into tradition. A boss blackmailing you to service him to keep your job or even get a job is not flirting. Rebuffing someone flirting and then being the subject of stalking and abuse is not flirting.
There is no confusion here. One is to create a bond. The other one is a war strategy used to control another and bring them into submission so they cannot challenge you for power. Abuse has become acceptable behaviour for far too long.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
And very different from "flirting." It is really disturbing that adults in 2018 cannot tell the difference between abuse and flirting. I do not care about "culture" -- that's merely sanctioned insanity turned into tradition. A boss blackmailing you to service him to keep your job or even get a job is not flirting. Rebuffing someone flirting and then being the subject of stalking and abuse is not flirting.
There is no confusion here. One is to create a bond. The other one is a war strategy used to control another and bring them into submission so they cannot challenge you for power. Abuse has become acceptable behaviour for far too long.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
I have lots of thoughts and wish I had time to translate the whole response (it’s very good) but despite all the grossness here, the fact that the signatories to the rebuttal gave themselves the rank of “militant feminists” is just so great. Imagine an editorial in the New York Times signed “Jane Doe , militant feminist”. David Brooks would die from the scandal of it. This is one area where the French do better than us
posted by dis_integration at 6:31 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:31 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Apparently Harper's has hunted down Katie Roiphe, who I think had pretty much faded into obscurity, and is having her write a cover story in March which names the woman who started the Shitty Media Men list. So yeah: the backlash is coming.
(Younger Mefites may not remember Katie Roiphe. In the early-to-mid-'90s, third-wave feminists on college campuses did a lot of stuff to raise awareness of sexual assault. Katie Roiphe was a young woman who enjoyed a career as the face of the backlash to campus anti-rape activism.)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:32 AM on January 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
(Younger Mefites may not remember Katie Roiphe. In the early-to-mid-'90s, third-wave feminists on college campuses did a lot of stuff to raise awareness of sexual assault. Katie Roiphe was a young woman who enjoyed a career as the face of the backlash to campus anti-rape activism.)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:32 AM on January 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
In the early-to-mid-'90s, third-wave feminists on college campuses did a lot of stuff to raise awareness of sexual assault. Katie Roiphe was a young woman who enjoyed a career as the face of the backlash to campus anti-rape activism.
Hahaha, this early X'er remembers Katie Roiphe, with wrath! "Victim feminism" indeed. Women who bring up rape and sexual harassment are weak, whiny, and, of course, Puritans. Naturally, a good many of these backlash types called themselves Libertarians. (I wonder sometimes, is Ayn Rand the root and font of all evil in American society?)
Katie Roiphe is the daughter of second-wave feminist Anne Roiphe, and I surmise she wouldn't have gotten the platform she did if it wasn't for that family connection and the delicious thrill of seeing a daughter rebel publicly against her mother's values.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Hahaha, this early X'er remembers Katie Roiphe, with wrath! "Victim feminism" indeed. Women who bring up rape and sexual harassment are weak, whiny, and, of course, Puritans. Naturally, a good many of these backlash types called themselves Libertarians. (I wonder sometimes, is Ayn Rand the root and font of all evil in American society?)
Katie Roiphe is the daughter of second-wave feminist Anne Roiphe, and I surmise she wouldn't have gotten the platform she did if it wasn't for that family connection and the delicious thrill of seeing a daughter rebel publicly against her mother's values.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
How much of this is generational? I'm not familiar with most of the women who signed the letter, but Deneuve is 74, and some of the other signatories seem to be in their 60s and 70s. In the US, I've seen some backlash to #MeToo from women of that generation who feel like they benefited from the sexual revolution and younger women need to get a thicker skin and learn how to manage men, the way they did
Very very much a question of generation and privilege. The signatories are mostly prominent women in their 60s to 80s. And their adversaries (for want of a better word) are younger, more radically feminist, women.
In fact I heard the bit about “getting a thicker skin and learning to manage men” almost word for word this morning on some TV show.
posted by Kwadeng at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Very very much a question of generation and privilege. The signatories are mostly prominent women in their 60s to 80s. And their adversaries (for want of a better word) are younger, more radically feminist, women.
In fact I heard the bit about “getting a thicker skin and learning to manage men” almost word for word this morning on some TV show.
posted by Kwadeng at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
part of the problem I see with the intergenerational tension at play here is the idea that "woman" is some singular monolithic definition of which people are subconsciously defaulted into and out of.
Like maybe "women" are ten thousand general tribes and a hundred million smaller overlapping squads that don't share definition.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:46 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
Like maybe "women" are ten thousand general tribes and a hundred million smaller overlapping squads that don't share definition.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:46 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
I am one of those older women. When I look back at all the instances of lewd behavior in the workplace, there's a bit of guilt that I didn't fight back. We laughed, we deflected, we didn't rock the boat. Some of these older women are rationalizing their own behavior, as if we were complicit. We were busy breaking into careers that were once for men only, and that was important, which meant putting up with abuse. But now we are progressing, and it's time to get the message across that harassment is not right anymore, and it never was. I do not want my daughters to put up with that, and I figure someday they will watch their daughters work for some other breakthrough.
posted by Miss Cellania at 6:47 AM on January 10, 2018 [70 favorites]
posted by Miss Cellania at 6:47 AM on January 10, 2018 [70 favorites]
The predator-prey model of heterosexuality needs to die in a fire.
posted by acb at 6:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [62 favorites]
posted by acb at 6:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [62 favorites]
> So yeah: the backlash is coming.
See also; Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings, which asks the all-important questions "What about the women who are the predators?" and "What happened to women’s agency?" but takes it as a given that men are just Like That and dismisses the idea of "calling out individual offenders, one by one" because "Stripping sex of eros isn’t the solution."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:52 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
See also; Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings, which asks the all-important questions "What about the women who are the predators?" and "What happened to women’s agency?" but takes it as a given that men are just Like That and dismisses the idea of "calling out individual offenders, one by one" because "Stripping sex of eros isn’t the solution."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:52 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
In the US, I've seen some backlash to #MeToo from women of that generation who feel like they benefited from the sexual revolution and younger women need to get a thicker skin and learn how to manage men, the way they did
There can be a lot of privilege in being the one person allowed past the barrier, while all the others are kept out. I'm not at all surprised that a percentage of older, highly successful women want to maintain the status quo, since they personally have benefited from being in the men's club in various ways.
I recall something similar in grad school, where quite a few senior women professors were not supportive of grad student women's complaints -- they had toughed it out under even tougher circumstances and succeeded, so had no sympathy for someone who was complaining. (Other senior professors were extremely supportive, of course, but the number who were not was notable.)
It's an outcome of a sick system and unequal access to privilege.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on January 10, 2018 [32 favorites]
There can be a lot of privilege in being the one person allowed past the barrier, while all the others are kept out. I'm not at all surprised that a percentage of older, highly successful women want to maintain the status quo, since they personally have benefited from being in the men's club in various ways.
I recall something similar in grad school, where quite a few senior women professors were not supportive of grad student women's complaints -- they had toughed it out under even tougher circumstances and succeeded, so had no sympathy for someone who was complaining. (Other senior professors were extremely supportive, of course, but the number who were not was notable.)
It's an outcome of a sick system and unequal access to privilege.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on January 10, 2018 [32 favorites]
The predator-prey model of heterosexuality needs to die in a fire.
Or maybe it could be cosplayed with a better consent model and not treated as real?
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or maybe it could be cosplayed with a better consent model and not treated as real?
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:53 AM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Appalled that an otherwise progressive country still is caught up in this.
Movies, books and popular culture have defined, even in a romantic sense, that women "want to be pursued. They don't show interest right away, making the man wait and work for her attentions."
I feel this is a subconscious thought bred into men of many cultures. Hence, they think the woman is simply playing hard to get when they are flirting.
Only when the thought of "Ladies first", the "fairer sex" and other ridiculous notion of women go away and women can confidently say "Yes, I invite your attention OR No, get lost" will there be any progress.
posted by theobserver at 6:56 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Movies, books and popular culture have defined, even in a romantic sense, that women "want to be pursued. They don't show interest right away, making the man wait and work for her attentions."
I feel this is a subconscious thought bred into men of many cultures. Hence, they think the woman is simply playing hard to get when they are flirting.
Only when the thought of "Ladies first", the "fairer sex" and other ridiculous notion of women go away and women can confidently say "Yes, I invite your attention OR No, get lost" will there be any progress.
posted by theobserver at 6:56 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
From what I could make of it with my broken French, the rebuttal piece was pretty great.
Can any more fluent francophones say whether "militante féministe" has different connotations in French than the equivalent phrase in English? Nothing in the rebuttal piece came across as at all militant; it seemed like a pretty mainstream feminist argument. Are the authors making a rhetorical point by staking allegiance to more radical ideas they've expounded elsewhere, or is the Overton window that much farther to the right on this issue in francophone countries that what seems mainstream to me is considered radical or militant there? Or does "militante féministe" not imply a radical position in French?
posted by biogeo at 7:03 AM on January 10, 2018
Can any more fluent francophones say whether "militante féministe" has different connotations in French than the equivalent phrase in English? Nothing in the rebuttal piece came across as at all militant; it seemed like a pretty mainstream feminist argument. Are the authors making a rhetorical point by staking allegiance to more radical ideas they've expounded elsewhere, or is the Overton window that much farther to the right on this issue in francophone countries that what seems mainstream to me is considered radical or militant there? Or does "militante féministe" not imply a radical position in French?
posted by biogeo at 7:03 AM on January 10, 2018
There can be a lot of privilege in being the one person allowed past the barrier, while all the others are kept out. I'm not at all surprised that a percentage of older, highly successful women want to maintain the status quo, since they personally have benefited from being in the men's club in various ways.
It's always precarious to sit in the seat that has been allowed by those in power. You serve at the pleasure of the royals. You stick your neck out and tilt at power and you may find yourself down with the masses trying to scramble up again. So, there's a risk and calculus and just sticking with the status quo is the safest option personally. I think we should let those women who made it under tough circumstances ride out their careers and not expect much. We want them to do more with their power but they are limited.
It's one reason why you need a critical mass. You can blackball a single woman or a couple but if all the power brokers band together then it's harder to single one out of the herd. I don't know why these women who have done their thing and retired feel the need to use their power to speak against the critical mass. I think when your inner circle contains the men who have harassed in small and large ways, you are trying to protect your own group, your identity.
The thin line that is hard for me to grasp and it's tough to parse is that the same feelings of power that men (in aggregate) have over women is intertwined with their ability to be un-biased. We don't see those as having less power to us equal to us. If the person we are meant to dominate, the person we are free to humiliate, suddenly wants the same thing as us, and receives it, then we feel our power slipping and rebel against that. So, that's the real atmosphere that we have to fight against.
I'd love to have healthy banter with men (and have loved it) that can include sexual innuendo and silly jokes. But, it is also a sign of a culture that doesn't take my power seriously and uses me to retain their top position. So, as a culture we have to give up the banter along with the more obvious forms of sexual power play while we try to get to a level of equality.
posted by amanda at 7:08 AM on January 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
It's always precarious to sit in the seat that has been allowed by those in power. You serve at the pleasure of the royals. You stick your neck out and tilt at power and you may find yourself down with the masses trying to scramble up again. So, there's a risk and calculus and just sticking with the status quo is the safest option personally. I think we should let those women who made it under tough circumstances ride out their careers and not expect much. We want them to do more with their power but they are limited.
It's one reason why you need a critical mass. You can blackball a single woman or a couple but if all the power brokers band together then it's harder to single one out of the herd. I don't know why these women who have done their thing and retired feel the need to use their power to speak against the critical mass. I think when your inner circle contains the men who have harassed in small and large ways, you are trying to protect your own group, your identity.
The thin line that is hard for me to grasp and it's tough to parse is that the same feelings of power that men (in aggregate) have over women is intertwined with their ability to be un-biased. We don't see those as having less power to us equal to us. If the person we are meant to dominate, the person we are free to humiliate, suddenly wants the same thing as us, and receives it, then we feel our power slipping and rebel against that. So, that's the real atmosphere that we have to fight against.
I'd love to have healthy banter with men (and have loved it) that can include sexual innuendo and silly jokes. But, it is also a sign of a culture that doesn't take my power seriously and uses me to retain their top position. So, as a culture we have to give up the banter along with the more obvious forms of sexual power play while we try to get to a level of equality.
posted by amanda at 7:08 AM on January 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
Militante is a name, not an adjective here; you can have a "militante syndicaliste", for instance. I would translate as "feminist activist", but with maybe a combative connotation.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 7:09 AM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 7:09 AM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
It is very fascinating to me to see mostly Americans discuss this issue here, probably totally unaware of an important and rather subtle factor that I'm noticing a lot in a quite a few of my fellow Europeans lately: a growing wariness of any social movement that seems to have started in the US. ("I agree in principle, but maybe they should stop pushing their version of feminism into our societies while electing one of the most vulgar and sexist man on the planet.")
This is of course super simplified, but it is a factor - just ask any American expat living in Europe if they noticed a subtle shift in how people act around them in the last couple of years.
posted by dominik at 7:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [29 favorites]
This is of course super simplified, but it is a factor - just ask any American expat living in Europe if they noticed a subtle shift in how people act around them in the last couple of years.
posted by dominik at 7:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [29 favorites]
biogeo - "militante" in this context essentially means "activist."
In March, Ms. Deneuve defended Roman Polanski, the director who pleaded guilty in 1977 to having sex with a 13-year-old girl and who was accused by two other women of forcing himself on them when they were under age. While appearing on a French television channel, Ms. Deneuve said, “It’s a case that has been dealt with, it’s a case that has been judged. There have been agreements between Roman Polanski and this woman.”
He's still wanted in the U.S. The victim did indeed ask for the case to be dropped, but as we're seeing with the new allegations against him, and as we well know, where there's smoke, there's a serial predator.
So yeah, not "dealt with" because he fled and never came back to face justice. Polanski was 44 in 1977.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
In March, Ms. Deneuve defended Roman Polanski, the director who pleaded guilty in 1977 to having sex with a 13-year-old girl and who was accused by two other women of forcing himself on them when they were under age. While appearing on a French television channel, Ms. Deneuve said, “It’s a case that has been dealt with, it’s a case that has been judged. There have been agreements between Roman Polanski and this woman.”
He's still wanted in the U.S. The victim did indeed ask for the case to be dropped, but as we're seeing with the new allegations against him, and as we well know, where there's smoke, there's a serial predator.
So yeah, not "dealt with" because he fled and never came back to face justice. Polanski was 44 in 1977.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:10 AM on January 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
Older, well-off women who made their living in sexist industries who now think that Kids These Days Are Ruining Our Fun.
As others upthread have suggested, I think it’s less “ruining our fun” and more “I had to cope with it; now it’s your turn.” If you spent your life negotiating a field of land mines, knowing that’s the best you could do, seeing a new generation suggest clearing out the ordinance might... cut at your identity as one of those tough and wiley enough to get through?
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:11 AM on January 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
As others upthread have suggested, I think it’s less “ruining our fun” and more “I had to cope with it; now it’s your turn.” If you spent your life negotiating a field of land mines, knowing that’s the best you could do, seeing a new generation suggest clearing out the ordinance might... cut at your identity as one of those tough and wiley enough to get through?
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:11 AM on January 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
Can any more fluent francophones say whether "militante féministe" has different connotations in French than the equivalent phrase in English?
I would translate militante féministe as women's rights activist
posted by Kwadeng at 7:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I would translate militante féministe as women's rights activist
posted by Kwadeng at 7:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Appalled that an otherwise progressive country still is caught up in this.
Is France progressive, though? I mean, they don't have a great track record with how they treat Jewish people, or non-white French people, or immigrants, or women...
posted by palomar at 7:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
Is France progressive, though? I mean, they don't have a great track record with how they treat Jewish people, or non-white French people, or immigrants, or women...
posted by palomar at 7:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [12 favorites]
(Younger Mefites may not remember Katie Roiphe. In the early-to-mid-'90s, third-wave feminists on college campuses did a lot of stuff to raise awareness of sexual assault. Katie Roiphe was a young woman who enjoyed a career as the face of the backlash to campus anti-rape activism.)
Honestly, I look back on the stuff that seemed totally normal and acceptable - even progressive! - in the nineties and I am pretty horrified. Like, at the time it felt very much like my social milieu had moved beyond a lot of sexist stuff - women writers and women's history were in the curriculum to what seemed at the time like an exciting new extent, there was widespread condemnation of sexual assault (understood very, very narrowly), I didn't in general feel confined by my birth-assigned gender. And yet looking back I can see so clearly how just shitty stuff was, mainly in the texture of day to day interactions - tones of voice, topics of conversation, the perception that if someone was horribly misogynist the grown-up response was to reason with them as if "women are constitutionally inferior" was a reasonable matter of debate.
I feel like there's as much difference between what was normal in the 1990s and what is normal today as there was between what was normal in the early seventies and what was normal in the nineties. My younger women friends seem to have better friendships and interactions with male peers than I did - I'm not saying that everything is just greaaaaaaaaat now, but the baseline gendered contempt/hostility that was the norm in almost all such friendships now seems far rarer.
In terms of Whatever Is The Older Generation Compared To You: I think it's really tough to be honest about your own pain and the way it limited your life, and the older you get the harder it gets because there is less time to change things. This is absolutely something I've noticed in myself - that my gut response to some of the various pro-child/anti-bullying stuff that goes around is that the solution to those problems is for people just to accept that life is hard and no one loves you, because after all look at me! And it's like, that's bananas! But it's also my response because when I press past that feeling, it becomes very painful to acknowledge how badly I was treated and how totally it shaped my life.
I am sure that many of these women who are all "ooh, seduction, France, you are going too far" have histories of enormous personal suffering. You can't honestly believe that these women who made it as actresses or personalities in the late fifties through the early seventies didn't have to go through really horrific experiences with absolutely no recourse and absolutely no space to talk about those things - given how women are treated today, when there is some recourse. And given what utter assholes a lot of those big-name sixties media guys have turned out to be!
Not that this excuses being against holding men accountable, but I'm sure it's a factor.
posted by Frowner at 7:28 AM on January 10, 2018 [51 favorites]
Honestly, I look back on the stuff that seemed totally normal and acceptable - even progressive! - in the nineties and I am pretty horrified. Like, at the time it felt very much like my social milieu had moved beyond a lot of sexist stuff - women writers and women's history were in the curriculum to what seemed at the time like an exciting new extent, there was widespread condemnation of sexual assault (understood very, very narrowly), I didn't in general feel confined by my birth-assigned gender. And yet looking back I can see so clearly how just shitty stuff was, mainly in the texture of day to day interactions - tones of voice, topics of conversation, the perception that if someone was horribly misogynist the grown-up response was to reason with them as if "women are constitutionally inferior" was a reasonable matter of debate.
I feel like there's as much difference between what was normal in the 1990s and what is normal today as there was between what was normal in the early seventies and what was normal in the nineties. My younger women friends seem to have better friendships and interactions with male peers than I did - I'm not saying that everything is just greaaaaaaaaat now, but the baseline gendered contempt/hostility that was the norm in almost all such friendships now seems far rarer.
In terms of Whatever Is The Older Generation Compared To You: I think it's really tough to be honest about your own pain and the way it limited your life, and the older you get the harder it gets because there is less time to change things. This is absolutely something I've noticed in myself - that my gut response to some of the various pro-child/anti-bullying stuff that goes around is that the solution to those problems is for people just to accept that life is hard and no one loves you, because after all look at me! And it's like, that's bananas! But it's also my response because when I press past that feeling, it becomes very painful to acknowledge how badly I was treated and how totally it shaped my life.
I am sure that many of these women who are all "ooh, seduction, France, you are going too far" have histories of enormous personal suffering. You can't honestly believe that these women who made it as actresses or personalities in the late fifties through the early seventies didn't have to go through really horrific experiences with absolutely no recourse and absolutely no space to talk about those things - given how women are treated today, when there is some recourse. And given what utter assholes a lot of those big-name sixties media guys have turned out to be!
Not that this excuses being against holding men accountable, but I'm sure it's a factor.
posted by Frowner at 7:28 AM on January 10, 2018 [51 favorites]
If you spent your life negotiating a field of land mines, knowing that’s the best you could do, seeing a new generation suggest clearing out the ordinance might... cut at your identity as one of those tough and wiley enough to get through?
And it's also self-protection. So maybe: you saw the landmines, you realised that a) this is an objectively shitty and awful and terrifying situation but b) you are outnumbered and outgunned and trying to clear a safe path is just going to blow up in your face. You calculate that your best option is to loudly declare allegiance to the enemy soldiers who put the landmines there in the first place, in the hope that they'll make you an exception and let you through. Landmines aren't so bad, anyway! It's a harmless natural tendency of these people to scatter landmines, it's not something that we should judge them for! Some of us enjoy tiptoeing gingerly through situations which could cause us death or serious injury! It makes us feel feminine! This is all TOTALLY FINE, in fact I like it, in fact I think the world would be a worse place now without men getting to scatter unexpected landmine fields around the place, so please don't associate me with the people you're trying to maim - see how I loudly denounce them for you!
Like all other variants of "I'm not like the other girls!", the unspoken other half of the sentence is "- so hurt them, not me."
posted by Catseye at 7:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [37 favorites]
And it's also self-protection. So maybe: you saw the landmines, you realised that a) this is an objectively shitty and awful and terrifying situation but b) you are outnumbered and outgunned and trying to clear a safe path is just going to blow up in your face. You calculate that your best option is to loudly declare allegiance to the enemy soldiers who put the landmines there in the first place, in the hope that they'll make you an exception and let you through. Landmines aren't so bad, anyway! It's a harmless natural tendency of these people to scatter landmines, it's not something that we should judge them for! Some of us enjoy tiptoeing gingerly through situations which could cause us death or serious injury! It makes us feel feminine! This is all TOTALLY FINE, in fact I like it, in fact I think the world would be a worse place now without men getting to scatter unexpected landmine fields around the place, so please don't associate me with the people you're trying to maim - see how I loudly denounce them for you!
Like all other variants of "I'm not like the other girls!", the unspoken other half of the sentence is "- so hurt them, not me."
posted by Catseye at 7:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [37 favorites]
I also think that in terms of making meaning, it's a lot easier to say "I suffered as women will always suffer because this is the nature of humans, I am part of a universal human experience that anyone can understand and that will persist after I am gone; also, this regime of suffering makes possible these other glorious experiences".
It's harder to say "I suffered pointlessly because of historical factors beyond my control; other, younger women will get the same benefits I got but won't have to suffer as much and will view my experience as almost inexplicable; also, you can get the glory without the suffering". At the same time, this, not the other, is the truth of human experience.
posted by Frowner at 7:35 AM on January 10, 2018 [31 favorites]
It's harder to say "I suffered pointlessly because of historical factors beyond my control; other, younger women will get the same benefits I got but won't have to suffer as much and will view my experience as almost inexplicable; also, you can get the glory without the suffering". At the same time, this, not the other, is the truth of human experience.
posted by Frowner at 7:35 AM on January 10, 2018 [31 favorites]
Thanks, all, for helping me understand the false cognate!
posted by biogeo at 7:36 AM on January 10, 2018
posted by biogeo at 7:36 AM on January 10, 2018
I'm noticing a lot in a quite a few of my fellow Europeans lately: a growing wariness of any social movement that seems to have started in the US. ("I agree in principle, but maybe they should stop pushing their version of feminism into our societies while electing one of the most vulgar and sexist man on the planet.")
That may be the phrasing now but I can assure you that under Obama I was still getting told by grad school classmates of various European nationalities that I was just an uptight American in terms of objecting to Page Three girls and Zwarte Piet.
So no, you don't get to play the "you elected Trump so now we're going to be reactionaries again" card.
posted by PMdixon at 7:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [38 favorites]
That may be the phrasing now but I can assure you that under Obama I was still getting told by grad school classmates of various European nationalities that I was just an uptight American in terms of objecting to Page Three girls and Zwarte Piet.
So no, you don't get to play the "you elected Trump so now we're going to be reactionaries again" card.
posted by PMdixon at 7:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [38 favorites]
- They were totally asking for it
- Not All Men!
- It is a witch hunt
posted by zombieflanders at 7:50 AM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments deleted. Captain l'escalier, we've warned you before and this will be the last: leave this topic alone.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:02 AM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:02 AM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
a growing wariness of any social movement that seems to have started in the US.
lol no. Feminism is not American, and this is an excuse.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:03 AM on January 10, 2018 [31 favorites]
lol no. Feminism is not American, and this is an excuse.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:03 AM on January 10, 2018 [31 favorites]
I feel like there's as much difference between what was normal in the 1990s and what is normal today as there was between what was normal in the early seventies and what was normal in the nineties. My younger women friends seem to have better friendships and interactions with male peers than I did - I'm not saying that everything is just greaaaaaaaaat now, but the baseline gendered contempt/hostility that was the norm in almost all such friendships now seems far rarer.
What's weird in retrospect was the extent to which so much of it was invisible because we'd never seen anything else or better yet. I mean, just look at Xander Harris. That's a character that was pretty beloved on the original airing (written as a creator stand-in even!) and now on rewatch, holy shit, what a passive-aggressive douche.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:06 AM on January 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
What's weird in retrospect was the extent to which so much of it was invisible because we'd never seen anything else or better yet. I mean, just look at Xander Harris. That's a character that was pretty beloved on the original airing (written as a creator stand-in even!) and now on rewatch, holy shit, what a passive-aggressive douche.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:06 AM on January 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
In my group Xander was always The Ross - fucking terrible.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:08 AM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:08 AM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh, fuck yes, Ross is even a better example. At least Xander developed as a character.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:14 AM on January 10, 2018
posted by leotrotsky at 8:14 AM on January 10, 2018
PMDixon/schadenfrau - I do agree. (Otherwise I'd probably not read MetaFilter that much. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
It's just something that I've noticed is getting stronger lately (but maybe I'm wrong and it is because the people I know are getting older and more conservative?) and that is completely missing from the "MetaFilter does Europe" discussions.
posted by dominik at 8:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's just something that I've noticed is getting stronger lately (but maybe I'm wrong and it is because the people I know are getting older and more conservative?) and that is completely missing from the "MetaFilter does Europe" discussions.
posted by dominik at 8:17 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
The poor men. They can lay waste to the planet, own and manage enormous amounts of capital, run global corporations but can't let a woman pass without a whistle. It's hard to imagine how they get their socks on everyday.
posted by amanda at 8:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by amanda at 8:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [28 favorites]
See, I always thought of Xander as a twit, but a twit who was a good guy so he was going to get better. The fact that he was a good guy did not necessarily endorse everything that he did. Which ties back to this: The backlash often seems to assume that we're going to start hanging men the first time they say something vaguely flirty to a woman who doesn't appreciate it. Unwanted sexual advances can be wrong, unalloyed wrong, without anybody threatening to shoot people who happen to wind up in that position. There's a difference between the stuff we say is bad behavior, period, and the scale of bad behavior where we say that a given man should have his career destroyed over it. If you don't say "no, don't do that" to the original bad behavior, that's what causes so much of it to get out of hand--but a lot of people want us to not say "don't do that" because it might make some guy feel vaguely nervous.
Thanks, but those of us on the other side have been feeling nervous around the opposite sex in employment situations for a long time; guys can cope with things occasionally being uncertain and slightly uncomfortable. A little bit of worry about whether you're doing the wrong thing is part of the price of doing the right thing. You can be a good person and still have sometimes done the wrong thing--being a good person isn't about being perfect, it's about being sorry and doing better the next time when you screw up. If we don't allow for a situation where we say that, yes, ordinary decent guys also screw up, if we're only allowed to call out the worst examples? Then that's how the worst examples get away with it.
posted by Sequence at 8:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
Thanks, but those of us on the other side have been feeling nervous around the opposite sex in employment situations for a long time; guys can cope with things occasionally being uncertain and slightly uncomfortable. A little bit of worry about whether you're doing the wrong thing is part of the price of doing the right thing. You can be a good person and still have sometimes done the wrong thing--being a good person isn't about being perfect, it's about being sorry and doing better the next time when you screw up. If we don't allow for a situation where we say that, yes, ordinary decent guys also screw up, if we're only allowed to call out the worst examples? Then that's how the worst examples get away with it.
posted by Sequence at 8:22 AM on January 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
I grew up in the US and always thought of France as something of an ideal fairy land. Visiting as a white man, or a white man with a date, did nothing to change my opinion. Then I spent several weeks hanging around Paris in the company of a dozen twenty year old women, including one whom many people would visually identify as transgender. (I was there in a professional context and there were a number of young men involved also; but we did spend many hours as a group in public places around town.) It made me rethink my retirement plans and my opinion of American cities. The constant street harassment and behavior of transit workers, museum staff, and waitstaff was truly astonishing. I don't understand how women in that city are able to get anything done, given the amount of their day they have to spend fending off rude assholes wearing uniforms. I realize this shit happens everywhere, almost certainly including my neighborhood and workplace. . . but somehow I expected better, or at least better concealment in mixed company.
Which is to say, as a naive foreigner, I can believe it's a genuine cultural difference. If so, it's a shitty part of culture which should be driven into the sea and forgotten, just like most of the things people in my country consider to be their cultural heritage.
posted by eotvos at 8:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
Which is to say, as a naive foreigner, I can believe it's a genuine cultural difference. If so, it's a shitty part of culture which should be driven into the sea and forgotten, just like most of the things people in my country consider to be their cultural heritage.
posted by eotvos at 8:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
lot of people want us to not say "don't do that" because it might make some guy feel vaguely nervous.
Weeeellllllll I don't think it's only that. I strongly suspect some people don't want the guy given feedback because he might Flip His Shit and do Bad Things that they will catch collateral damage from. The "please don't piss off our abusive father because it won't just be you he punishes" model.
posted by PMdixon at 8:35 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Weeeellllllll I don't think it's only that. I strongly suspect some people don't want the guy given feedback because he might Flip His Shit and do Bad Things that they will catch collateral damage from. The "please don't piss off our abusive father because it won't just be you he punishes" model.
posted by PMdixon at 8:35 AM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
The thing about The Xander is that his primary function isn't to be a character - it's to take the main female character down a peg. The Xander is positioned as the "real" of men - The Buffy may think that she's out there being powerful and dealing with defeating evil; to her, these are the important things about her life. But The Xander exists to remind both her and the viewers that fundamentally, no matter how powerful she is, men first and foremost think of her as a piece of ass. That's one reason that The Xander is white - only white men are allowed to represent Men-As-A-Class.
You may not be thinking about whether you're fuckable or your value on the romantic exchange market - you're getting above yourself, thinking that a woman isn't predominantly defined by how fuckable she is or is not. But we can't let the viewer think that's true, and we can't show the viewer some uppity broad acting like she doesn't have to think about her sexual worth. Hence The Xander, who exists to make sure that misogyny is reinscribed even in situations that seem to center women.
posted by Frowner at 8:40 AM on January 10, 2018 [25 favorites]
You may not be thinking about whether you're fuckable or your value on the romantic exchange market - you're getting above yourself, thinking that a woman isn't predominantly defined by how fuckable she is or is not. But we can't let the viewer think that's true, and we can't show the viewer some uppity broad acting like she doesn't have to think about her sexual worth. Hence The Xander, who exists to make sure that misogyny is reinscribed even in situations that seem to center women.
posted by Frowner at 8:40 AM on January 10, 2018 [25 favorites]
Which is why it makes perfect sense that Joss put so much of himself into Xander - even when trying to make a lovable goof, it was so stewed in his own misogyny.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:43 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:43 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
FWIW eotvos, here's something I wrote about my experience in Paris:
This came at the end of a week being followed for blocks by 3 different men on 3 different occasions in a weird creepy stalker way where they hid behind my peripheral vision and would then do this thing where they'd "let themselves be seen" briefly, just enough to gaslight me into thinking "surely he's not following me?" until the point that I truly understood I was being followed and I'd turn around and confront them, at which point they'd "come clean" and ask for my number, ask for sex, a date, whatever. I was also solicited for paid sex on the ferry to Calais. And I was also catcalled by doormen in Pigalle that I could make a lot more money working their XXX stage instead of the streets.
It was abhorrent.
That said I love Paris and I can't wait to go back because I'm problematic as fuck like that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
This came at the end of a week being followed for blocks by 3 different men on 3 different occasions in a weird creepy stalker way where they hid behind my peripheral vision and would then do this thing where they'd "let themselves be seen" briefly, just enough to gaslight me into thinking "surely he's not following me?" until the point that I truly understood I was being followed and I'd turn around and confront them, at which point they'd "come clean" and ask for my number, ask for sex, a date, whatever. I was also solicited for paid sex on the ferry to Calais. And I was also catcalled by doormen in Pigalle that I could make a lot more money working their XXX stage instead of the streets.
It was abhorrent.
That said I love Paris and I can't wait to go back because I'm problematic as fuck like that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:48 AM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Definitely a generational thing: a resistance to change with a subtle helping of Stockholm Syndrome. ("Every woman had to deal with it and it made her tougher" = "Every man I grew up with is due for a reckoning, and they would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!")
I think a lot of the trepidation arrives with the uncertainty of the elephant in the room: Now what? For how long? And to what degree?
Take, for example, the recent allegations against Stan Lee. What is the correct, measured response? Boycott all further Marvel movies (Black Panther, Avengers, etc.)? For how long? Were his crimes (groping in-home nurses) sufficiently egregious? Is he even really relevant to the current Marvel canon (save his cameos)? Will people be labeled hypocrites if they support the franchise?
I think that ill-defined line makes people anxious. It is not a single voice, nor a single line of reasoning, and suffers from an inconsistency of consequence. Are there a set of mandates, or are we going to keep flying by the seat of our pants?
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of the trepidation arrives with the uncertainty of the elephant in the room: Now what? For how long? And to what degree?
Take, for example, the recent allegations against Stan Lee. What is the correct, measured response? Boycott all further Marvel movies (Black Panther, Avengers, etc.)? For how long? Were his crimes (groping in-home nurses) sufficiently egregious? Is he even really relevant to the current Marvel canon (save his cameos)? Will people be labeled hypocrites if they support the franchise?
I think that ill-defined line makes people anxious. It is not a single voice, nor a single line of reasoning, and suffers from an inconsistency of consequence. Are there a set of mandates, or are we going to keep flying by the seat of our pants?
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is very fascinating to me to see mostly Americans discuss this issue here, probably totally unaware of an important and rather subtle factor that I'm noticing a lot in a quite a few of my fellow Europeans lately: a growing wariness of any social movement that seems to have started in the US.
Hi, european here, the problem is that the recent social movements originating in the US are quite different from traditional social movements in Europe.
We had socialist governments, communist parties that actually held power and so on. So the left is different and still very much influenced by old school leftist thinkers, like Marx, Trotsky, Mao and so on...
If you agree with Trotsky you're not going to run to defend muslim women's rights to wear hijab since you think that being religious is already a mistake.
That's just one example. Another would be the Intersectionality theory which a lot of old school leftists consider bullshit, because for them there's only one struggle and it's class struggle which includes everything already (racism, sexism and so on..)
So for them everything boils down to that, there's racism because it makes it easier to exploit p.o.c and keep them poor, there's sexism because it makes it easier to exploit women and keep them poor and so on so forth... Basically their focus is on the worker's situation, everything else will fall in place once that is taken care of.
Which is why they see the recent social movements coming from the U.S as a distraction from the real problem.
posted by SageLeVoid at 9:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [32 favorites]
Hi, european here, the problem is that the recent social movements originating in the US are quite different from traditional social movements in Europe.
We had socialist governments, communist parties that actually held power and so on. So the left is different and still very much influenced by old school leftist thinkers, like Marx, Trotsky, Mao and so on...
If you agree with Trotsky you're not going to run to defend muslim women's rights to wear hijab since you think that being religious is already a mistake.
That's just one example. Another would be the Intersectionality theory which a lot of old school leftists consider bullshit, because for them there's only one struggle and it's class struggle which includes everything already (racism, sexism and so on..)
So for them everything boils down to that, there's racism because it makes it easier to exploit p.o.c and keep them poor, there's sexism because it makes it easier to exploit women and keep them poor and so on so forth... Basically their focus is on the worker's situation, everything else will fall in place once that is taken care of.
Which is why they see the recent social movements coming from the U.S as a distraction from the real problem.
posted by SageLeVoid at 9:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [32 favorites]
("I agree in principle, but maybe they should stop pushing their version of feminism into our societies while electing one of the most vulgar and sexist man on the planet.")
ah yes of course, because being one of the millions of people who did NOT vote for him means that we too deserve derision and mockery and egregious sexism. and naturally the ones who DID vote for him would be the most interested in feminism. what excellent logic.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:23 AM on January 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
ah yes of course, because being one of the millions of people who did NOT vote for him means that we too deserve derision and mockery and egregious sexism. and naturally the ones who DID vote for him would be the most interested in feminism. what excellent logic.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:23 AM on January 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; if people really want to fight about Xander, that should go someplace else.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2018
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:35 AM on January 10, 2018
a lot of old school leftists consider bullshit, because for them there's only one struggle and it's class struggle which includes everything already (racism, sexism and so on..)
Or, you know, that’s what they say and the reality is that they are enmeshed in power structures—on the gender and racial axes—that materially benefit them in countless ways, and that they therefore construct an elaborate intellectual facade to conceal and dismiss. This shouldn’t be a difficult argument for an old-school leftist to grasp—it ought to be their intellectual bread-and-butter—and yet they so often manage a beautiful imitation of bourgeois outrage and insistence on the purity of their motives when faced with it.
posted by Aravis76 at 10:46 AM on January 10, 2018 [29 favorites]
Or, you know, that’s what they say and the reality is that they are enmeshed in power structures—on the gender and racial axes—that materially benefit them in countless ways, and that they therefore construct an elaborate intellectual facade to conceal and dismiss. This shouldn’t be a difficult argument for an old-school leftist to grasp—it ought to be their intellectual bread-and-butter—and yet they so often manage a beautiful imitation of bourgeois outrage and insistence on the purity of their motives when faced with it.
posted by Aravis76 at 10:46 AM on January 10, 2018 [29 favorites]
I think both SageLeVoid and Aravis76 have great points: the US doesn't have the same background with viable Communist parties (outside of a few areas) nor are Marx and other philosophers widely read. Even the people flocking to the Democratic Socialists of America don't care about Marx so much as health care, basic income, and other economic issues. (And the DSA is very very white and very bro-y in many chapters.)
But this "it's all about class! Everywhere!" sounds like BernieBros all the way down. I don't think I have to link to the nonstop yammering about Class! Poor White People! Social Class Not Social Justice! spewed out in the wake of Trump's election. Trump's base was comfortably well-off white suburbanites, including 53% of white women. I don't think it's a coincidence that these are the same people crying "Witch hunt! Think of teh menz!" It's not a shocker to say that there are women who benefit from patriarchal structures and would like to keep them in place.
And not just conservative white women, either: Wealthy Democratic donor Susie Tompkins is tantruming and threaten to withdraw her money because she thinks Al Franken was wronged. Writer Daphne Merkin is on record as saying #MeToo goes too far.
I think, especially in the Franken matter, there's also tribalism and circling the wagons around One Of Our Own at work. People don't want to believe that someone on their side can be an abuser! Not my husband, not my brother, especially not my son, etc. Tribalism is a hell of a drug.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:09 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
But this "it's all about class! Everywhere!" sounds like BernieBros all the way down. I don't think I have to link to the nonstop yammering about Class! Poor White People! Social Class Not Social Justice! spewed out in the wake of Trump's election. Trump's base was comfortably well-off white suburbanites, including 53% of white women. I don't think it's a coincidence that these are the same people crying "Witch hunt! Think of teh menz!" It's not a shocker to say that there are women who benefit from patriarchal structures and would like to keep them in place.
And not just conservative white women, either: Wealthy Democratic donor Susie Tompkins is tantruming and threaten to withdraw her money because she thinks Al Franken was wronged. Writer Daphne Merkin is on record as saying #MeToo goes too far.
I think, especially in the Franken matter, there's also tribalism and circling the wagons around One Of Our Own at work. People don't want to believe that someone on their side can be an abuser! Not my husband, not my brother, especially not my son, etc. Tribalism is a hell of a drug.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:09 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
If you went to someone's house and their cabinets were lopsided and all their chairs wobbled, would you be inclined to trust their advice on carpentry?
posted by Pyry at 11:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Pyry at 11:18 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, but someone who has to keep fixing the furniture because they're asshole roommates keep breaking things just might be able to give a few pointers.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:30 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:30 AM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Why has this just turned into an AskMe about the London flats I've shared with people over the years?
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:41 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:41 AM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
This kind of thing reads even worse when you hear that France... currently has no official minorty age of sexual consent.
ie, Age of consent is 15, but for younger ages an assault is not termed 'rape' if the minor seemed to consent...
"On Nov. 7, a 30-year-old French man was acquitted of rape after a jury found no evidence that he had forced an 11-year-old into having sex. The jurors ruled that the elements that constitute rape such as "coercion, threat, violence and surprise were not established," since the girl had followed him willingly. "
I think that when you grow up in a place that handwaves the definition of harassment/rape for young children because they 'followed...willingly', you have a harder time understanding the harms of harassment/consent issues for adults.
(of course, not all... ect)but there is no official, protected age there where a minor cannot 'give' consent. Thankfully, it seems some lawmakers want to make those laws clearer in 2018
More from the BBC
posted by dreamling at 12:18 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
ie, Age of consent is 15, but for younger ages an assault is not termed 'rape' if the minor seemed to consent...
"On Nov. 7, a 30-year-old French man was acquitted of rape after a jury found no evidence that he had forced an 11-year-old into having sex. The jurors ruled that the elements that constitute rape such as "coercion, threat, violence and surprise were not established," since the girl had followed him willingly. "
I think that when you grow up in a place that handwaves the definition of harassment/rape for young children because they 'followed...willingly', you have a harder time understanding the harms of harassment/consent issues for adults.
(of course, not all... ect)but there is no official, protected age there where a minor cannot 'give' consent. Thankfully, it seems some lawmakers want to make those laws clearer in 2018
More from the BBC
posted by dreamling at 12:18 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Were his crimes (groping in-home nurses) sufficiently egregious? Is he even really relevant to the current Marvel canon (save his cameos)?
I mean, he can stop getting those cameos, stop being paid to attend conventions, etc. People around him can make sure he's not sexually assaulting care workers (who tend to be WOC, no wonder some might find crimes against them not egregious enough to "count" or whatever). Everyone has to make their own choices on art vs artist, but these aren't unanswerable questions and the only people lumping everything together and calling it all the same seem to be the people who don't want things to change.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
I mean, he can stop getting those cameos, stop being paid to attend conventions, etc. People around him can make sure he's not sexually assaulting care workers (who tend to be WOC, no wonder some might find crimes against them not egregious enough to "count" or whatever). Everyone has to make their own choices on art vs artist, but these aren't unanswerable questions and the only people lumping everything together and calling it all the same seem to be the people who don't want things to change.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
> Apparently Harper's has hunted down Katie Roiphe, who I think had pretty much faded into obscurity, and is having her write a cover story in March which names the woman who started the Shitty Media Men list. So yeah: the backlash is coming
And also a backlash backlash. Nicole Cliffe is paying who have pieces accepted for the March issue of Harper's what they'll lose if they pull their pieces from it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
And also a backlash backlash. Nicole Cliffe is paying who have pieces accepted for the March issue of Harper's what they'll lose if they pull their pieces from it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
I'm pretty sure she's paying anyone who pulls any piece in the hopper at Harper's, whether it's for March or not. She says so far only women have taken her up on the offer.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:34 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:34 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Sorry for the length, but I thought it would be useful to have a non-machine translation of Caroline de Haas’s reply.
Each time that women's rights progresses, that consciences awaken, there is resistance. In general, it takes the form of a "That's true of course, but...." On January 9, we were treated to a "#Metoo, that’s fine, but...." Nothing really new in the arguments used. We find these in the text published in Le Monde, and at work around the coffee machine, or at the dinner table. This op-ed is like the bothersome colleague or the tedious uncle who doesn't understand what's going on.
“Things can go too far.” As equality advances, even half a millimeter, good souls immediately warn us that we risk falling into excess. Excess, we’re standing in it already. It's the world we live in. In France, every day, hundreds of thousands of women are victims of harassment. Tens of thousands of sexual attacks And hundreds of rapes. Every day. The excess is on that side.
“We can’t say anything anymore.” As if the fact that our society tolerates a bit less sexist (or racist or homophobic) remarks, it’s a problem. “Dang, it was so much better when we could freely treat women as sluts, huh?” No. It was worse. Language has an influence on human behavior; to accept insults against women is in fact to authorize violence. Mastery of our own language is the sign that our society is advancing.
“It’s puritanism.” Painting feminists as uptight, or sexually frustrated... the imagination of these writers is... disconcerting. Violence weighs upon women. All of them. It weighs on our spirits, our bodies, our pleasures, and our sexualities. When more than one woman in two has been subject to sexual violence, it’s hard to imagine even for a moment a liberated world, where women are freely and fully in control of their bodies and their sexuality.
“We can’t flirt any more.” The op-ed writers deliberately mix a mutual seduction, based on respect and pleasure, with violence. To mix everything is practical. It allows placing everything in the same bag. If harassment or attacks are “heavy flirting”, they’re not so important. The writers are mistaken. There is not a difference of degree between flirting and harassment, but a difference of kind. Violence is not “augmented seduction.” On one hand, the other person is considered as an equal, respecting their desires, whatever they may be. On the other, they are considered as an object to be used, their own desires or consent irrelevant.
“It’s women’s responsibility.” The op-ed writers talk about educating girls so that they are not intimidated. Thus women are given the responsibility to not be attacked. When do we talk about the responsibility of men to not rape or not attack? What about the education of boys?
Women are human beings. Like everyone. We have the right to be respected. We have the fundamental right to not be insulted, whistled at, attacked, raped. We have the basic right to live our lives in safety. Whether in France, in the US, in Senegal, in Thailand or in Brazil— this is not what we have. Anywhere.
Many of the writers have been quick to denounce sexism when it comes from men in lower class neighborhoods. But the hand on the ass, when it belongs to men in their own world, still has the “right to intrude.” This strange ambivalence lets us appreciate their attachment to the feminism they complain about.
With this text, they are attempting to restore the leaden cloak which we have begun to remove. They will not succeed. We are the victims of violence; we are not ashamed. We are standing, strong, vigorous, determined. We will put an and to sexist and sexual violence.
Are the pigs and their allies (of both sexes) worried? It's to be expected. Their old world is disappearing. Slowly— too slowly— but inevitably. Some dusty reminiscences will change nothing, even published in Le Monde.
posted by zompist at 12:57 PM on January 10, 2018 [63 favorites]
Each time that women's rights progresses, that consciences awaken, there is resistance. In general, it takes the form of a "That's true of course, but...." On January 9, we were treated to a "#Metoo, that’s fine, but...." Nothing really new in the arguments used. We find these in the text published in Le Monde, and at work around the coffee machine, or at the dinner table. This op-ed is like the bothersome colleague or the tedious uncle who doesn't understand what's going on.
“Things can go too far.” As equality advances, even half a millimeter, good souls immediately warn us that we risk falling into excess. Excess, we’re standing in it already. It's the world we live in. In France, every day, hundreds of thousands of women are victims of harassment. Tens of thousands of sexual attacks And hundreds of rapes. Every day. The excess is on that side.
“We can’t say anything anymore.” As if the fact that our society tolerates a bit less sexist (or racist or homophobic) remarks, it’s a problem. “Dang, it was so much better when we could freely treat women as sluts, huh?” No. It was worse. Language has an influence on human behavior; to accept insults against women is in fact to authorize violence. Mastery of our own language is the sign that our society is advancing.
“It’s puritanism.” Painting feminists as uptight, or sexually frustrated... the imagination of these writers is... disconcerting. Violence weighs upon women. All of them. It weighs on our spirits, our bodies, our pleasures, and our sexualities. When more than one woman in two has been subject to sexual violence, it’s hard to imagine even for a moment a liberated world, where women are freely and fully in control of their bodies and their sexuality.
“We can’t flirt any more.” The op-ed writers deliberately mix a mutual seduction, based on respect and pleasure, with violence. To mix everything is practical. It allows placing everything in the same bag. If harassment or attacks are “heavy flirting”, they’re not so important. The writers are mistaken. There is not a difference of degree between flirting and harassment, but a difference of kind. Violence is not “augmented seduction.” On one hand, the other person is considered as an equal, respecting their desires, whatever they may be. On the other, they are considered as an object to be used, their own desires or consent irrelevant.
“It’s women’s responsibility.” The op-ed writers talk about educating girls so that they are not intimidated. Thus women are given the responsibility to not be attacked. When do we talk about the responsibility of men to not rape or not attack? What about the education of boys?
Women are human beings. Like everyone. We have the right to be respected. We have the fundamental right to not be insulted, whistled at, attacked, raped. We have the basic right to live our lives in safety. Whether in France, in the US, in Senegal, in Thailand or in Brazil— this is not what we have. Anywhere.
Many of the writers have been quick to denounce sexism when it comes from men in lower class neighborhoods. But the hand on the ass, when it belongs to men in their own world, still has the “right to intrude.” This strange ambivalence lets us appreciate their attachment to the feminism they complain about.
With this text, they are attempting to restore the leaden cloak which we have begun to remove. They will not succeed. We are the victims of violence; we are not ashamed. We are standing, strong, vigorous, determined. We will put an and to sexist and sexual violence.
Are the pigs and their allies (of both sexes) worried? It's to be expected. Their old world is disappearing. Slowly— too slowly— but inevitably. Some dusty reminiscences will change nothing, even published in Le Monde.
posted by zompist at 12:57 PM on January 10, 2018 [63 favorites]
Thanks, zompist.
As with this 2012 thread about a related French issue, I'm hoping to hear more in this thread from people who are French or have spent a lot of time in France or with French people.
posted by brainwane at 1:20 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
As with this 2012 thread about a related French issue, I'm hoping to hear more in this thread from people who are French or have spent a lot of time in France or with French people.
posted by brainwane at 1:20 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Wow, even the translation is eloquent. I can't imagine a North American op-ed written that way.
posted by polymodus at 1:32 PM on January 10, 2018
posted by polymodus at 1:32 PM on January 10, 2018
Re: Katie Roiphe & Harpers, it seems (spoiler alert) the Twitter-triggered anger wasn't based on facts: "In an email interview on Tuesday, Ms. Roiphe said her article did not name a creator of the list."
posted by PhineasGage at 2:05 PM on January 10, 2018
posted by PhineasGage at 2:05 PM on January 10, 2018
Roiphe has also said she doesn't know the identity but that's apparently a lie. She is not really to be trusted at her word.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:07 PM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:07 PM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also it's not exactly surprising they'd pull the name and then blame the "hysterical twitter mob." This is the sort of shit she's known for. For all we know, she started the rumor to be able to play the victim while she's accusing others of engaging in victimhood culture, her favorite past time.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:09 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:09 PM on January 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Or, you know, that’s what they say and the reality is that they are enmeshed in power structures—on the gender and racial axes—that materially benefit them in countless ways, and that they therefore construct an elaborate intellectual facade to conceal and dismiss. This shouldn’t be a difficult argument for an old-school leftist to grasp—it ought to be their intellectual bread-and-butter—and yet they so often manage a beautiful imitation of bourgeois outrage and insistence on the purity of their motives when faced with it.
So if you go into history of feminism in the 1950's in America, it turns out that this was effectively a difficult argument. A lot of the leftist, male-dominated organizations just couldn't absorb the implications of the women' movements that were happening concurrently. It took time to change and improve, relatively speaking—for the more subtle reason that social science theorists have come to believe (it comes out in their papers almost like a party line), that political struggle is immanent in any given substrate of power. But even today there are new generations of leftists who don't either know this, e.g. the subset of Bernie people that the media likes to make fun of, or even possibly the various neo-Marxists e.g. on Jacobian magazine. So today it's a really unfortunate situation of different groups being disconnected from historical links and being in a position of having to reinvent the wheel (if they even have the resources to do so), and/or for the ones who are a familiar with the literature and historical knowledge, are well aware that there's still a long way to go.
For these reasons, I don't find it helpful to discuss leftists and Marxists based on those specific subsets. I don't know any Bernie bros, nor do I know any old-school Marxists. It's a bit of a straw argument, or overgeneralizing based on a problematic representative. It's better to look at what's happening in leftist scholarship, so I always recommend David Harvey and Judith Butler as representative starting points for getting a sense of diversity in left thought.
For example, I'd find it a very hard argument after listening the Harvey's courses to conclude that a leftist should reject intersectionality. That would be like forgetting the whole point of Marx. And Judith Butler as a queer theorist (but also a non-Marxist, as I understand it) has made so many contributions to feminist thinking while being able to balance that with a strong critique of neoliberalism. It's a tight line to walk, but these and others are living scholars on the cutting edge and they deserve more attention than the more skewed portrayal in the media.
posted by polymodus at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
So if you go into history of feminism in the 1950's in America, it turns out that this was effectively a difficult argument. A lot of the leftist, male-dominated organizations just couldn't absorb the implications of the women' movements that were happening concurrently. It took time to change and improve, relatively speaking—for the more subtle reason that social science theorists have come to believe (it comes out in their papers almost like a party line), that political struggle is immanent in any given substrate of power. But even today there are new generations of leftists who don't either know this, e.g. the subset of Bernie people that the media likes to make fun of, or even possibly the various neo-Marxists e.g. on Jacobian magazine. So today it's a really unfortunate situation of different groups being disconnected from historical links and being in a position of having to reinvent the wheel (if they even have the resources to do so), and/or for the ones who are a familiar with the literature and historical knowledge, are well aware that there's still a long way to go.
For these reasons, I don't find it helpful to discuss leftists and Marxists based on those specific subsets. I don't know any Bernie bros, nor do I know any old-school Marxists. It's a bit of a straw argument, or overgeneralizing based on a problematic representative. It's better to look at what's happening in leftist scholarship, so I always recommend David Harvey and Judith Butler as representative starting points for getting a sense of diversity in left thought.
For example, I'd find it a very hard argument after listening the Harvey's courses to conclude that a leftist should reject intersectionality. That would be like forgetting the whole point of Marx. And Judith Butler as a queer theorist (but also a non-Marxist, as I understand it) has made so many contributions to feminist thinking while being able to balance that with a strong critique of neoliberalism. It's a tight line to walk, but these and others are living scholars on the cutting edge and they deserve more attention than the more skewed portrayal in the media.
posted by polymodus at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Re: Katie Roiphe & Harpers, it seems (spoiler alert) the Twitter-triggered anger wasn't based on facts
Oh, please. An honest, careful reading of that article shows that she did basically everything a writer would do when preparing to reveal a confidential source. Roiphe has a long history of dishonest and factually incorrect reporting, and she should be considered the least reliable narrator of what actually happened.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Oh, please. An honest, careful reading of that article shows that she did basically everything a writer would do when preparing to reveal a confidential source. Roiphe has a long history of dishonest and factually incorrect reporting, and she should be considered the least reliable narrator of what actually happened.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's not really fair to say this is Twitter-triggered anger either. Even though it happened there, it wasn't nobodies behind their computers pushing it and discussing it - it was and is highly respected writers, editors, etc who are well informed and really stuck their necks out to try to save the original creator of the list.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:16 PM on January 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:16 PM on January 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
This seems to me a case of extreme backpedaling. Harper's sees that they're going to lose authors and pieces and subscriptions and calls Roiphe in a panic telling her she has to deny having the name. Either that or as postulated above, Roiphe never had the name and threatened to leak it so she could claim victim-hood after the outrage.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:20 PM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:20 PM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
As I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! says, the women behind the anger are respected people in the literary field not nobodies, so its entirely possible Harper's got spooked.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:21 PM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:21 PM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
An email exchange obtained by The New York Times shows that, during the editing process, a Harper’s fact checker contacted a person said to be a creator of the list and said the article identified her as someone “widely believed” to be one of the people behind it.
Harper’s said that the fact-checking email exchange did not mean the name was ever meant to be included in the final version. “Fact-checking is part of reporting,” Ms. Melucci said.
Yeah, uh, they were just doing it just in case. Sure. It's the well-known "fact-checking things you never intended to report" process.
Poor Katie Roiphe. It must be murder on these kinds of female conservative pundits to get older and have to realize what the actual basis for the right's fandom of them was.
posted by praemunire at 2:52 PM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Harper’s said that the fact-checking email exchange did not mean the name was ever meant to be included in the final version. “Fact-checking is part of reporting,” Ms. Melucci said.
Yeah, uh, they were just doing it just in case. Sure. It's the well-known "fact-checking things you never intended to report" process.
Poor Katie Roiphe. It must be murder on these kinds of female conservative pundits to get older and have to realize what the actual basis for the right's fandom of them was.
posted by praemunire at 2:52 PM on January 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
The creator of the list has taken matters into her own hands.
posted by rewil at 3:08 PM on January 10, 2018
posted by rewil at 3:08 PM on January 10, 2018
It might be Lexi, but for what it's worth that's the 3rd or 4th prominent woman writer I've seen post similar. Nicole Cliffe just said she's Roiphe. I get the sense there is some joking and some trying to protect the actual originator.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:10 PM on January 10, 2018
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:10 PM on January 10, 2018
Oh way more than 3 or 4, just scroll down this timeline.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:14 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:14 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I get the sense there is some joking and some trying to protect the actual originator.
I think it's called the sisterhood.
posted by roolya_boolya at 3:25 PM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think it's called the sisterhood.
posted by roolya_boolya at 3:25 PM on January 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh way more than 3 or 4, just scroll down this timeline.
This is wonderful.
I hope whoever bought Roiphe’s pitch is fucking fired.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:45 PM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
This is wonderful.
I hope whoever bought Roiphe’s pitch is fucking fired.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:45 PM on January 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
We are all Spartacus.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:53 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:53 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
We talked about this briefly during a break at work today here in Europe. The main position from men and women was have they lost their minds?. But what started the discussion was that Lars von Trier has been awarded a huge prize, and we were thinking together about wether that was a good idea right now, and how some genius artists can be horrible human beings. Polanski is mentioned above.
The general sentiment was with what Fraula wrote above, that the changes from the 70's to the 90's and from the 90's till now are so huge that it is difficult to impose the thinking of today on the 90's or 70's. No one who spoke out felt that should or could acquit old predators of their crimes. But a few people remained silent, and only when I got home and read this thread I remembered that one of the men there is a known predator and he must be scared as shit these days.
#metoo is a big reckoning and I hope it will bring substantial change. I would never want my daughters to go through what I have experienced. But for some of the older generation, there are other dimensions. I have heard some talk about their frustration about feeling invisible when there are no longer catcalls when they walk on the street. I can't follow their thinking, but I feel one must acknowledge that they feel that way.
posted by mumimor at 3:57 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
The general sentiment was with what Fraula wrote above, that the changes from the 70's to the 90's and from the 90's till now are so huge that it is difficult to impose the thinking of today on the 90's or 70's. No one who spoke out felt that should or could acquit old predators of their crimes. But a few people remained silent, and only when I got home and read this thread I remembered that one of the men there is a known predator and he must be scared as shit these days.
#metoo is a big reckoning and I hope it will bring substantial change. I would never want my daughters to go through what I have experienced. But for some of the older generation, there are other dimensions. I have heard some talk about their frustration about feeling invisible when there are no longer catcalls when they walk on the street. I can't follow their thinking, but I feel one must acknowledge that they feel that way.
posted by mumimor at 3:57 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's the well-known "fact-checking things you never intended to report" process.
In a later interview, Ms. Roiphe said that she herself did not know the identity of the person who started the list
Even better: it's the "checking facts you don't know" process.
posted by PMdixon at 4:06 PM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
In a later interview, Ms. Roiphe said that she herself did not know the identity of the person who started the list
Even better: it's the "checking facts you don't know" process.
posted by PMdixon at 4:06 PM on January 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Harper's has been shit on anything non-fiction for a looooooong time.)
posted by PMdixon at 4:07 PM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by PMdixon at 4:07 PM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nicole Cliffe on Twitter (oh how I adore her):
I think some of the shock at how quickly things happened with the Roiphe piece reaction is bc its genesis is the same backchannel whisper support network that spawned The List and the difference between Rumors and Not Blowing Up Someone’s Spot By Saying They Told You Something.posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:19 PM on January 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
I’m flighty but I’m not dropping 20 g’s bc someone on Twitter said they heard a thing might be a thing. The piece was happening, and Katie is not a trustworthy person, and the source was contacted and *terrified.*
I am fine with the inevitable “paying to quash a story” “young feminists biting the hand that feeds them” “free speech” “should these tweets not instead have been a well-reasoned piece in the April issue of The Atlantic” but people mobilized bc they had a time-sensitive goal.
I am now quite confident that the version of this piece which appears in March will not include identifying details about the person in question, and that is all we wanted. My offer stands until Harper’s pledges that, or the piece proves it.
Oh, and I love each and every Spartacus. Good for you.
In other good things Twitter wrought in the publishing world in the past day, the Midwest Writer's Workshop is attempting an apology after Roxane Gay called them out last night.
posted by rewil at 6:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by rewil at 6:13 PM on January 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you're curious about Roiphie's leanings, she's supported by Christina Sommers.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:27 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:27 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh, wait, Roiphie was lying?? Who possibly could have guessed? Ugh. What damage has already been done.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:30 PM on January 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
She shouldn't have had to and that is brave of Moira. I went through the Spartacus list linked above and I was tearing up out of the camaraderie. I did notice that Moira no longer have her Twitter account up, probably intentional, and probably smart.
posted by numaner at 8:22 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by numaner at 8:22 PM on January 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
On the assumption that this thread is where we'll be talking about the Shitty Media Men list (instead of making a new FPP about Donegan's The Cut article):
I found this part of her article particularly striking.
And then there is backchannel discussion which inherently takes the more radical tack of mutual aid. The governments at all levels, the Boards of Directors and Human Resources and the vice presidents, the deans and the department chairs, the conference organizers and the maintainers, the publishers and editors-in-chief and directors and executive producers, are not going to help us and we have to help ourselves. Sarah Jeong has a Twitter thread about "resorting to self-help" as a legal term and what it implies.
And sometimes helping each other means privately warning each other. I'm reminded of Danny O'Brien's notes on online voices and the secret, private, and public registers. It sounds like this list was originally meant to be not just private but secret. Women in the information security field are tweeting hashes of the names of people they accuse (article by Sarah Jeong; read it for an explanation), which is a way of constructing the private vs. public barrier so it's not about whether the writer granted you, specifically, access, and instead it's about whether you have the technical skill necessary to decode the message. OK, now I am probably going to go read up on US defamation law for a while...
posted by brainwane at 6:39 AM on January 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
I found this part of her article particularly striking.
The hope was to create an alternate avenue to report this kind of behavior and warn others without fear of retaliation....When a reporting channel has enforcement power, like an HR department or the police, it also has an obligation to presume innocence. In contrast, the value of the spreadsheet was that it had no enforcement mechanisms: Without legal authority or professional power, it offered an impartial, rather than adversarial, tool to those who used it. It was intended specifically not to inflict consequences, not to be a weapon — and yet, once it became public, many people immediately saw it as exactly that.I have been involved in antiharassment/code-of-conduct work in the open source software world where we talk a lot about enforcement, and people and organizations offer training events that include incident response plans. And there's sort of this political science 101 idea that we want to protect ourselves and each other from certain kinds of harms, and that to do this we create and enforce certain rules within our communities -- so when we talk about enforcement it's usually saying "those with authority to enforce these rules should do so."
And then there is backchannel discussion which inherently takes the more radical tack of mutual aid. The governments at all levels, the Boards of Directors and Human Resources and the vice presidents, the deans and the department chairs, the conference organizers and the maintainers, the publishers and editors-in-chief and directors and executive producers, are not going to help us and we have to help ourselves. Sarah Jeong has a Twitter thread about "resorting to self-help" as a legal term and what it implies.
And sometimes helping each other means privately warning each other. I'm reminded of Danny O'Brien's notes on online voices and the secret, private, and public registers. It sounds like this list was originally meant to be not just private but secret. Women in the information security field are tweeting hashes of the names of people they accuse (article by Sarah Jeong; read it for an explanation), which is a way of constructing the private vs. public barrier so it's not about whether the writer granted you, specifically, access, and instead it's about whether you have the technical skill necessary to decode the message. OK, now I am probably going to go read up on US defamation law for a while...
Open-sourced, it would theoretically be accessible to women who didn’t have the professional or social cache required for admittance into whisper networks.a Google spreadsheet where only people you invite can read and write to it is not open source and I have not yet accepted that pedants like me have lost this battle
posted by brainwane at 6:39 AM on January 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
"I Made the Pizza Cinnamon Rolls from Mario Batali’s Sexual Misconduct Apology Letter" by Geraldine DeRuiter and -- spoiler -- they aren't good.
posted by brainwane at 7:11 AM on January 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 7:11 AM on January 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
More from Nicole Cliffe:
I have to say, my own naïveté was being SHOCKED that Katie Roiphe would lie directly to a New York Times reporter. There are so many ways to dance around facts, but to have the hubris to deny something KNOWING there’s evidence out there to the contrary? She would have cheerfully kept calling us Twitter hysterics and puritans and free speech haters and gone on shows to preen about it if Moira didn’t have the receipts. @Harpers, bail out. You don’t actually have to go down with her. (The receipts and the guts to produce them, I should say.)posted by zombieflanders at 11:08 AM on January 11, 2018 [15 favorites]
I will actually stop talking about this now, but Katie Roiphe is not a journalist and she IS a liar and anywhere that pays her to write after this knows what they’re buying.
NT Alexandra Petri, WaPo: Ladies, let’s be reasonable about #MeToo or nothing will ever be sexy again
Ladies, please.posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:07 PM on January 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
(Puts up feet on table in a sage fashion.)
Well, it has been a fun (glances at watch) three months that we have been doing this thing where we stop letting harassment and assault get swept under the rug, and it has been nice, certainly, to watch those tumbrils of condemned men rolling through the streets toward the guillotine (or, as she is all-too-aptly termed, the Hungry Lady!), but I think we must be reasonable now and stop before any more good men are made to suffer. Before all future films are robbed of that certain je ne sais quoi, that frisson, that — other French word, which gives them their palpable raw erotic charge.
You understand of course what I am saying.
I was sitting at a luncheon the other day when a friend casually remarked, “When is this #MeToo nonsense going to end? When will movies be sexy again?”
“Indeed,” I said. It was not that I am clairvoyant, although I am literally clairvoyant. But now, you see, it is ending. Or at least, I would like it to be ending, which is much the same thing.
When we were only coming for people who had actually done bad things and, indeed, admitted as much, it was fine. But now we are going into bars and scooping up any men who have done anything, be it ever so slight: a smile, a look, forcing a woman to live under his desk in a secret room and refusing to tell her what year it is, offenses of WILDLY DIFFERENT DEGREES that I am just lumping together as though I think all of them might be possibly acceptable if you did them outside the office.
After the #MeToo backlash, an insider’s guide to French feminism
posted by XMLicious at 9:46 PM on January 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 9:46 PM on January 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
After the #MeToo backlash, an insider’s guide to French feminism
A little rich for the hed to advertise it as a discussion of "French feminism" in general given that it's so one-sided in its apologetics for Deneuve et al., while the sheer existence of the rebuttal linked in the FPP demonstrates that French feminism is not univocal.
posted by PMdixon at 12:53 AM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
A little rich for the hed to advertise it as a discussion of "French feminism" in general given that it's so one-sided in its apologetics for Deneuve et al., while the sheer existence of the rebuttal linked in the FPP demonstrates that French feminism is not univocal.
posted by PMdixon at 12:53 AM on January 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
There is a commentary on Jezebel here, with the usual mix of the good, the bad and the ugly in comments. Several point out that Catherine Deneuve never identified as a feminist at all, second-wave or otherwise.
The Jezebel writers and commentariat do like to blame "second-wave" feminism for this, ignoring that the second wave encompassed many schools of feminist thought and people with diverse backgrounds and outlooks. It wasn't just Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem.
I can't recall if Katie Roiphe (herself the daughter of a second-wave feminist) ever identified as a feminist, or was just one of those obnoxious Libertarian "I am not a feminist, I am an egalitarian/humanist!" types. There is some amusement in the Jez comments where Roiphe, born in the early 1960's, is accused of being a "second-waver" and even a baby boomer! Because if someone is awful they are automatically Old and A Boomer, I guess.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:15 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Jezebel writers and commentariat do like to blame "second-wave" feminism for this, ignoring that the second wave encompassed many schools of feminist thought and people with diverse backgrounds and outlooks. It wasn't just Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem.
I can't recall if Katie Roiphe (herself the daughter of a second-wave feminist) ever identified as a feminist, or was just one of those obnoxious Libertarian "I am not a feminist, I am an egalitarian/humanist!" types. There is some amusement in the Jez comments where Roiphe, born in the early 1960's, is accused of being a "second-waver" and even a baby boomer! Because if someone is awful they are automatically Old and A Boomer, I guess.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:15 AM on January 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Trying to figure out where to put this, an interesting article that focuses on considering how to measure long-tail cultural fallout from sexual harassment cases based on name popularity. And also a measure of 'where we were/are'.
Maybe we can someday get past this kind of thing:
The popularity of the name “Monica” among girls dropped immediately following the news of the scandal in January of 1998. While only subtly, the name William moved up the rankings of names given to boys. [...] So, the sex scandal involving Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton contaminated her name, but not his.
Figures.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:49 PM on January 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe we can someday get past this kind of thing:
The popularity of the name “Monica” among girls dropped immediately following the news of the scandal in January of 1998. While only subtly, the name William moved up the rankings of names given to boys. [...] So, the sex scandal involving Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton contaminated her name, but not his.
Figures.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:49 PM on January 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Riane Konc, New Yorker: How to Dismiss Harassment Like a French Woman
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:21 AM on January 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Would you like to be able to dismiss an epidemic of sexual harassment just like these powerful French women? Here’s how!It gets better!
Portion Control
French women don’t publicly demonstrate their dismissal of how women have historically been treated by men in power by making one giant hashtag statement. They make dozens of small, idiotic statements throughout the day.
Be Multilingual
Unlike Americans, many of whom speak only English, the French woman knows multiple languages. So, while an American might naïvely think that “no means no,” the multilingual French woman knows that nee means no, and nein means no, and non means no, but, most important, “no” generally means “Unless you insist—I don’t want to seem like a prude!”
Quality Counts
A French woman would never blame a victim of harassment for wearing a low-cut blouse or a tight skirt. She would blame her for wearing a low-cut blouse that is a poly-cotton blend.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:21 AM on January 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
« Older The six types of workbench builder | My First Hundred Years Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Aravis76 at 1:56 AM on January 10, 2018 [51 favorites]