Hoity Toity Squiggles
October 31, 2018 2:17 PM Subscribe
Analysis: Lets get rid of the apostrophe. Opinion: Apostrophes are members of the English alphabet, not punctuation, and too important to lose. Previously.
Þhe use of new letters & punctuation marks is a fad, a folly of æir, a breað of ƿind. I've had enouȝ !
Leſs of this!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:27 PM on October 31, 2018 [55 favorites]
Leſs of this!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:27 PM on October 31, 2018 [55 favorites]
I too am a tireless advocate for apostrophe reform. Too often, its used improperly by clueless idiot's who are unaware of it's true purpose... I mean... god damn it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:28 PM on October 31, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:28 PM on October 31, 2018 [16 favorites]
Lets get rid of the apostrophe.
Related question: who gives a fuck about an oxford comma?
A certain indie rock band desperately wants to know.
posted by Fizz at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Related question: who gives a fuck about an oxford comma?
A certain indie rock band desperately wants to know.
posted by Fizz at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Recently, I saw a buzzfeed list of signs that showed people using quotation marks/inverted commas incorrectly, so let's get rid of those, too!
posted by acidnova at 2:31 PM on October 31, 2018
posted by acidnova at 2:31 PM on October 31, 2018
I already have a user name but if I were to choose one today it might very well be Von Kink.
posted by chavenet at 2:33 PM on October 31, 2018
posted by chavenet at 2:33 PM on October 31, 2018
Related question: who gives a fuck about an oxford comma?
My parents, Ayn Rand and God.
posted by asperity at 2:39 PM on October 31, 2018 [90 favorites]
My parents, Ayn Rand and God.
posted by asperity at 2:39 PM on October 31, 2018 [90 favorites]
The real solution is just to drill into English learners, over and over, that possessives with apostrophes are the exception to the rule, like a sort of “and sometimes y” thing.
So, teach what a pronoun is, then teach the possessive pronouns — not an apostrophe among them (just pretend one doesn’t exist for the time being) — and then, once all that has thoroughly sunk in, hastily tack on, “...and everything else gets apostrophe-s.”
Keep that as separate as possible from the lesson on contractions to keep them from getting muddled — none of that “uses of apostrophes” lumping together.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:42 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
So, teach what a pronoun is, then teach the possessive pronouns — not an apostrophe among them (just pretend one doesn’t exist for the time being) — and then, once all that has thoroughly sunk in, hastily tack on, “...and everything else gets apostrophe-s.”
Keep that as separate as possible from the lesson on contractions to keep them from getting muddled — none of that “uses of apostrophes” lumping together.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:42 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Getting rid of apostrophes altogether for possessives wouldn’t work in English, where we use both possessive s and plural s. Other languages tend to use one or the other, and don’t have the potential for ambiguity between the cat’s fur and the cats’ fur.)
posted by Sys Rq at 2:46 PM on October 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 2:46 PM on October 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Other languages tend to use one or the other, and don’t have the potential for ambiguity between the cat’s fur and the cats’ fur.
And that's even without considering the pluralized possessives that could be referring to the (dozen) cats' fur.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:54 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
And that's even without considering the pluralized possessives that could be referring to the (dozen) cats' fur.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:54 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
(sort of staring in disbelief)
It doesn't, an' you can't!
I won't, an it don't!
It hasn't, it isn't, it even ain't.
posted by sfenders at 2:54 PM on October 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
It doesn't, an' you can't!
I won't, an it don't!
It hasn't, it isn't, it even ain't.
posted by sfenders at 2:54 PM on October 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Þhe use of new letters & punctuation marks is a fad, a folly of æir, a breað of ƿind. I've had enouȝ !
Leſs of this!
Eth's a thorn-y issue, yogh.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:55 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Leſs of this!
Eth's a thorn-y issue, yogh.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:55 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Is it April fool’s day in Australia or something? Anyway, “The crux of the biscuit is the semicolon” just doesn’t work.
posted by TedW at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by TedW at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
And that's even without considering the pluralized possessives that could be referring to the (dozen) cats' fur.
I’m confused. Isn’t that the thing you quoted me considering?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m confused. Isn’t that the thing you quoted me considering?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
we came close to losing the apostrophe in the 90s, when sf/fantasy writers very nearly used up all of the global reserves
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:08 PM on October 31, 2018 [35 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:08 PM on October 31, 2018 [35 favorites]
My parents, Ayn Rand and God.
Every argument for the Oxford comma always is inevitably improved by reordering the list, not adding a comma.
The comma is a place-holder for a conjunction; instead of saying "my parents and Ayn Rand and God," you add a comma and remove "and".
The Oxford comma is a replacement conjunction without removing the replaced conjunction. No.
posted by explosion at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
Every argument for the Oxford comma always is inevitably improved by reordering the list, not adding a comma.
The comma is a place-holder for a conjunction; instead of saying "my parents and Ayn Rand and God," you add a comma and remove "and".
The Oxford comma is a replacement conjunction without removing the replaced conjunction. No.
posted by explosion at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
On the turning away ... :’-(
posted by the quidnunc kid at 3:22 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 3:22 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
As a proofreader I get to delete the Oxford commas thanks to a sane house style... and save them up to turn into apostrophes for the authors who don't have a clue.
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yeah, giving up on anything that's the slightest bit of a challenge is always the best way to go.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:32 PM on October 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:32 PM on October 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
Wow. When I woke up this morning, I definitely wasn't expecting that today would be the day that I found the hill on which I was willing to die—but here we are.
If you need me I'll be up here, sharpening my axe.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:34 PM on October 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
If you need me I'll be up here, sharpening my axe.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:34 PM on October 31, 2018 [19 favorites]
Were and we're would get a little dicey, but I wouldn't miss them. We're keeping quotation marks, right?
posted by es_de_bah at 3:34 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by es_de_bah at 3:34 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
The real solution is just to drill into English learners, over and over, that possessives with apostrophes are the exception to the rule, like a sort of “and sometimes y” thing.Or we could teach them that apostrophes only have one job: they indicate missing letters. The possessive apostrophe is only there to indicate the missing "e" or "es", no other reason. Apostrophes do one thing, and "indicate possession" isn't it.
posted by Fish Sauce at 3:41 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
My parents, Ayn Rand and God.
The only thing ambiguous about that is why God would care about commas. Context almost always makes the meaning clear.
As for apostrophes, the usage rules were invented by a bunch of half-literate printers, which is why they make no sense. As a grammar anarchist, I would be fine with jettisoning the apostrophe on the grounds that the rules are stupid and prescriptive in the worst way, but I also am delighted by non-standard uses; every sign with a 'misused' apostrophe and every inconsiderate "it's" is a blow for freedom and truth.
posted by surlyben at 3:42 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
And the Oxford comma is like safety gear: you use it even when it's not strictly necessary so that when you finally do need it, it's already working for you just out of sheer habit. Safety first, kids.
posted by Fish Sauce at 3:43 PM on October 31, 2018 [34 favorites]
posted by Fish Sauce at 3:43 PM on October 31, 2018 [34 favorites]
PRESCRIPDIVISION FOREVER!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:45 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:45 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
*Oxford comma or GTFO.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:46 PM on October 31, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:46 PM on October 31, 2018 [18 favorites]
Related question: who gives a fuck about an oxford comma?
Paradise was assured to you, my friend, and, with one careless question, you cast yourself into Perdition.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
Paradise was assured to you, my friend, and, with one careless question, you cast yourself into Perdition.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
Context almost always makes the meaning clear.
"Almost." Isn't that the point? To make perfectly clear what chance would deem ambiguous?
posted by zardoz at 4:00 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
"Almost." Isn't that the point? To make perfectly clear what chance would deem ambiguous?
posted by zardoz at 4:00 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
Tisnt needed?
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:01 PM on October 31, 2018
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:01 PM on October 31, 2018
While I oppose banning apostrophes, I do support banning them from proper nouns in Fantasy and Science Fiction novels.
I was amused to see a church kiosk say “Autocorrect can go straight to he’ll.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
I was amused to see a church kiosk say “Autocorrect can go straight to he’ll.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
Except possessives.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2018
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2018
No discussion on apostrophes would be complete without a word from Bob the Angry Flower.
posted by zardoz at 4:04 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 4:04 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
But, how will grocer’s indicate plural’s?
posted by Thorzdad at 4:09 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 4:09 PM on October 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
As is my wont, I won't get too worked up about this, but as to the use of an apostrophe in orthography, it's plain to see its merits. I'd go on if I had less control of my id, but I believe I'll feel ill if I do. I just can't understand the cant of this complaint. The author of the first article, he'll burn in hell for his apostasy maybe, but the author of the second article, she'd be thanked for the light she shed on the matter, if I ever met her. Though I don't imagine we'd have wed our points of view fully, I do still have questions after all. Well, we'll see perhaps. Who're any of us to...nah, I will let that one alone :)
Any strong opinion expressed in the preceding was done purely for the fun of the exercise (and cant was a real stretch, I recognize). I wouldn't advocate for dropping the apostrophe but nor would I fight the movement.
I was pretty swayed by the argument that it should be considered a letter rather than punctuation, though, and that in turn reminded me of one of my favorite bits of orthographic trivia. In French, the chapeau over a vowel, like the e in fenêtre (which means window), is less about pronunciation and more about marking that there used to be another letter following it, usually and as is the case for that word, an s. And that is handy info if you are trying to remember which e to put it on and you also happen to know the word defenestrate in English.
posted by solotoro at 4:24 PM on October 31, 2018 [16 favorites]
Any strong opinion expressed in the preceding was done purely for the fun of the exercise (and cant was a real stretch, I recognize). I wouldn't advocate for dropping the apostrophe but nor would I fight the movement.
I was pretty swayed by the argument that it should be considered a letter rather than punctuation, though, and that in turn reminded me of one of my favorite bits of orthographic trivia. In French, the chapeau over a vowel, like the e in fenêtre (which means window), is less about pronunciation and more about marking that there used to be another letter following it, usually and as is the case for that word, an s. And that is handy info if you are trying to remember which e to put it on and you also happen to know the word defenestrate in English.
posted by solotoro at 4:24 PM on October 31, 2018 [16 favorites]
Like most who engage in such jeremiads, this complainant was certain that the inability to adhere to English punctuation conventions was not only newfound, but increasing each passing year.
I do notice more and more completely cryptic comma errors in professional writing (usually in journalism). As in, I cannot imagine why someone thought that a comma should go where they put it, unless they have a theory that English is not correct until a random amount of commas have been sprinkled over it.
Here is an example, from a WIRED article posted here: “It’s also where Patrick and John Collison, learned to code – and where they began to think about online payments. ” What?
posted by thelonius at 4:37 PM on October 31, 2018
I do notice more and more completely cryptic comma errors in professional writing (usually in journalism). As in, I cannot imagine why someone thought that a comma should go where they put it, unless they have a theory that English is not correct until a random amount of commas have been sprinkled over it.
Here is an example, from a WIRED article posted here: “It’s also where Patrick and John Collison, learned to code – and where they began to think about online payments. ” What?
posted by thelonius at 4:37 PM on October 31, 2018
@thelonius: I can actually explain that specific error. Lots of folks grew up learning that you have to separate proper names in some circumstances, likesuchas: "I went bowling with my partner, Jess." And what they have done is extrapolate that into thinking that proper names always need to be separated by commas in some way. When it happens consistently at the beginning of a sentence they are probably also mashing something in there that they sort of remember about separating introductory words and phrases with commas, likesuchas: "Well, I guess that didn't go as planned."
That writers get this stuff wrong doesn't generally surprise me, journalists especially. I've worked with several journalists who can't write for shit, but are good at other parts of the job so they rely on solid editors. Other writers I've worked with can write beautifully but aren't good at the mechanics, and again rely on solid editors. When I see an error like that I usually just think their editors suck.
posted by Fish Sauce at 4:48 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
That writers get this stuff wrong doesn't generally surprise me, journalists especially. I've worked with several journalists who can't write for shit, but are good at other parts of the job so they rely on solid editors. Other writers I've worked with can write beautifully but aren't good at the mechanics, and again rely on solid editors. When I see an error like that I usually just think their editors suck.
posted by Fish Sauce at 4:48 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Fish Sauce, the only other theory I had was that a modifying phrase was removed. Again, that would be on the editor.
posted by thelonius at 4:53 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 4:53 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Or on the management who slashed the budget for editing.
posted by thelonius at 4:59 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:59 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
You can have my Oxford comma when you pry it from my cold, dead exposition.
posted by CynicalKnight at 5:12 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 5:12 PM on October 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
I had a cat whose middle name was Apostrophe, but it was pronounced APP-oh-strophe (silent e).
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:16 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:16 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
The comment's in this post are making my head explode. I shall alert the mod's.
Also, Strongbad is here to help, you scallawags.
posted by 4ster at 5:52 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, Strongbad is here to help, you scallawags.
posted by 4ster at 5:52 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had a cat whose middle name was Apostrophe, but it was pronounced APP-oh-strophe (silent e).
cat-oh-strophic
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
cat-oh-strophic
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can't believe this is even under consideration. Changing the language to suit the lowest common denominator will lead us to Idiocracy.
posted by MsVader at 6:03 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by MsVader at 6:03 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
It should be reserved for when you talk about decades like the 1960's or the 80's.
posted by straight at 7:06 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 7:06 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m confused. Isn’t that the thing you quoted me considering?
Yeah, on re-read that comment made no sense, and all I can offer in my defense is a temporary reading comprehension failure.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:37 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, on re-read that comment made no sense, and all I can offer in my defense is a temporary reading comprehension failure.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:37 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hah! You guys think you have problems. IRL, my name is James. Except when written by this one person in the comms diary and roster and such, when I become Jame's. Any and all other James' get the same treatment. I really should say something, I guess...
posted by quinndexter at 8:35 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by quinndexter at 8:35 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm hoping that every one of you that thinks the Oxford comma needs to go away has to share your inheritance with your siblings.
Do you want that $100,000 dollars shared between you, your sister and your brother?
Or would you want $100,000 shared between you, your sister, and your brother?
We know how your family feels about the O comma.
Besides, it ought to be a law. The appellate court said so.
JFK and Stalin are here to start the party, one way or another, there will eventually be strippers.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:48 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
Do you want that $100,000 dollars shared between you, your sister and your brother?
Or would you want $100,000 shared between you, your sister, and your brother?
We know how your family feels about the O comma.
Besides, it ought to be a law. The appellate court said so.
JFK and Stalin are here to start the party, one way or another, there will eventually be strippers.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:48 PM on October 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hah! You guys think you have problems. IRL, my name is James. Except when written by this one person in the comms diary and roster and such, when I become Jame's. Any and all other James' get the same treatment. I really should say something, I guess...
I generally advocate for nonviolence. In this case, however, I’m leaning toward looking the other way while you deal with the situation.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:49 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I generally advocate for nonviolence. In this case, however, I’m leaning toward looking the other way while you deal with the situation.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:49 PM on October 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I recommend anyone who's not familiar with Tiger Webb to check out some of his other pieces and @tfswebb.
There's a lot of really interesting stuff, and as far as language goes, I usually have faith in Tiger to both know the history and what's good for everyone.
He does the pronounciation guides for the ABC's broadcasting, so he seems to be the go-to if you're not sure on how to pronounce Murripurtiyanuwu or Biloela.
Also seems decent politically. Is always fielding complaints from irate people about things like an anchor saying "Maths" etc. Can be a lot of fun.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2018
There's a lot of really interesting stuff, and as far as language goes, I usually have faith in Tiger to both know the history and what's good for everyone.
He does the pronounciation guides for the ABC's broadcasting, so he seems to be the go-to if you're not sure on how to pronounce Murripurtiyanuwu or Biloela.
Also seems decent politically. Is always fielding complaints from irate people about things like an anchor saying "Maths" etc. Can be a lot of fun.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2018
Do you want that $100,000 dollars shared between you, your sister and your brother?
Or would you want $100,000 shared between you, your sister, and your brother?
I think that's an argument against the use of commas, Oxford or otherwise, in situations where ambiguity must be avoided.
posted by surlyben at 9:13 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Or would you want $100,000 shared between you, your sister, and your brother?
I think that's an argument against the use of commas, Oxford or otherwise, in situations where ambiguity must be avoided.
posted by surlyben at 9:13 PM on October 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
It doesn't, an' you can't!
I won't, an it don't!
It hasn't, it isn't, it even ain't.
Is that you, Tom Lehrer?
Also, it wasn’t the SciFi writers using up the apostrophes, unless they were accidentally using them instead glottal stops, which are correctly written as reversed apostrophes (technically, slightly smaller). The glottal stop is considered a letter of the alphabet, for example, the Hawai‘ian ‘okina.
posted by LEGO Damashii at 12:02 AM on November 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I won't, an it don't!
It hasn't, it isn't, it even ain't.
Is that you, Tom Lehrer?
Also, it wasn’t the SciFi writers using up the apostrophes, unless they were accidentally using them instead glottal stops, which are correctly written as reversed apostrophes (technically, slightly smaller). The glottal stop is considered a letter of the alphabet, for example, the Hawai‘ian ‘okina.
posted by LEGO Damashii at 12:02 AM on November 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
The glottal stop is considered a letter of the alphabet, for example, the Hawai‘ian ‘okina.
On one of the Walt Disney World forums I visit sometimes, there's always a certain number of posters referring to the Polynesian-themed restaurant 'Ohana as "O'hana," as if it were a tropical Irish pub.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:08 AM on November 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
On one of the Walt Disney World forums I visit sometimes, there's always a certain number of posters referring to the Polynesian-themed restaurant 'Ohana as "O'hana," as if it were a tropical Irish pub.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:08 AM on November 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
They can't get rid of the apostrophe, it's part of my name. Officially I am Kitten O'Magic. I'm already have to put up with plane tickets that read Kitten Omagic which just looks weird.
posted by kitten magic at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by kitten magic at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Do you want that $100,000 dollars shared between you, your sister and your brother?
I take it the ambiguity is supposed to be that here, your siblings each get only 1/4, and you get half? It doesn't read that way to me, it just looks wrong.
posted by thelonius at 3:50 AM on November 1, 2018
I take it the ambiguity is supposed to be that here, your siblings each get only 1/4, and you get half? It doesn't read that way to me, it just looks wrong.
posted by thelonius at 3:50 AM on November 1, 2018
Any and all other James' get the same treatment.
I know it's spoiling the snark, but for the sake of innocently lurking children who may be otherwise irreparably corrupted by such tomfoolery, it should be noted the plural of James is Jameses.
posted by xigxag at 6:10 AM on November 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know it's spoiling the snark, but for the sake of innocently lurking children who may be otherwise irreparably corrupted by such tomfoolery, it should be noted the plural of James is Jameses.
posted by xigxag at 6:10 AM on November 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Getting rid of them is a terrible idea. Also, there is at least one man in Bristol who will fight for the apostrophe.
I've seen his work and it is surprisingly professional-looking. Apparently he makes his apostrophes (and patches for covering up superfluous ones) using plastic tape in a range of different colours to match the original signs, and applies them after night, using a Special Device of his own design.
posted by Fuchsoid at 6:31 AM on November 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've seen his work and it is surprisingly professional-looking. Apparently he makes his apostrophes (and patches for covering up superfluous ones) using plastic tape in a range of different colours to match the original signs, and applies them after night, using a Special Device of his own design.
posted by Fuchsoid at 6:31 AM on November 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Daily Mash: Apostrophe added to endangered species list:
"Razed by the internet and social media on which apostrophes are rarely employed, this formerly plentiful symbol now only survives in captivity on English teachers’ whiteboards.posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:35 AM on November 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
"We should never have criticised greengrocers for letting their apostrophes run so wild. At least they loved them."
The possessive apostrophe is only there to indicate the missing "e" or "es", no other reason.
Um... What?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:23 AM on November 1, 2018
Um... What?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:23 AM on November 1, 2018
@Sys Rq: There are still some scraps of Old English declensions floating around in modern English, and "es" endings for the genitive are among them. We just drop the "e". It's one of the few things I actually remember from my Old English class.
From ye olde wikipedia:
From ye olde wikipedia:
Old English had a genitive case, which has left its mark in modern English in the form of the possessive ending 's (now sometimes referred to as the "Saxon genitive"), as well as possessive pronoun forms such as his, theirs, etc., and in certain words derived from adverbial genitives such as once and afterwards.posted by Fish Sauce at 10:37 AM on November 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
drop the apostrophe drop allp uncuationactuallyyevenbothrwiththemakshulleecumtothinkofitjustdropitallwhoneedtocommunikaytanymore
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:40 AM on November 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:40 AM on November 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are still some scraps of Old English declensions floating around in modern English
If you want to watch someone's brain asplode, explain to them that I, me, my, myself, and mine are just declensions of the same pronoun. Boomf.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:45 PM on November 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you want to watch someone's brain asplode, explain to them that I, me, my, myself, and mine are just declensions of the same pronoun. Boomf.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:45 PM on November 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
English is not Anglo-Saxon, fishsauce. They’re barely even related at all. (Don’t make me go into my “OLD ENGLISH” IS AN INVENTION OF GEORGIAN PROPAGANDISTS rant again.) While those apostrophes may indeed have originated in a language that happened to have been spoken by people in England over a thousand years ago — I’ll take your word for it — their language is not our language, and their reasons are not our reasons. In English, the language we’re talking about, the apostrophe in possessives doesn’t stand in for missing letters. If you look at closer relatives of English than Anglo-Saxon, such as our Scandinavian cousins, you’ll find the possessive s without any apostrophe. But since we also share the plural s with another cousin — French — the possessive apostrophe serves to eliminate ambiguity between plural possessive, singular possessive, and plain old plural. That’s why we have it.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:38 PM on November 1, 2018
posted by Sys Rq at 1:38 PM on November 1, 2018
Are you... honestly suggesting that because Old English (or West Anglo Saxon if you really want to be that person) isn't identical to Modern English that they have no relationship at all, and that it's not possible for elements to persist over time despite the structures they were part of disappearing?
[insert Jennifer Lawrence thumbs up gif here]
posted by Fish Sauce at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2018
[insert Jennifer Lawrence thumbs up gif here]
posted by Fish Sauce at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2018
The incremental road to Newspeak. Double plus good.
posted by Metacircular at 12:21 AM on November 2, 2018
posted by Metacircular at 12:21 AM on November 2, 2018
Hoity-Toity Squiggles would be a great name for a preschool-age-fkcused cartoon character. Coming this Fall to Nick, Junior: Hoity-Toity Squiggles and the Comma-Comma Club!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:19 AM on November 2, 2018
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:19 AM on November 2, 2018
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posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:21 PM on October 31, 2018 [18 favorites]