All Eyes on Georgia
December 5, 2020 1:45 AM Subscribe
The key to passing Biden's agenda and disabling Mitch McConnell rests on Georgia. There could not be a more consequential runoff election. While incumbents Loeffler and Perdue run a "Save Our Majority" campaign in the midst of election fraud claims, Rev. Warnock and Jon Ossoff form a Black-Jewish coalition that could be key to opening a new era of civil rights in America, beginning with the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act. Whether the U.S. becomes more or less democratic hinges on the Georgia runoffs on Jan. 5, 2021.
The Senate runoffs heat up with Loeffler accusing Warnock, a long-time pastor, of being a communist and Fidel Castro's friend. Both GOP incumbents provide plenty of ammo for their challengers in the form of stock trades, profiteering off of the pandemic while downplaying it to their constituents.
Meanwhile, Republicans are in disarray, with voices advising to boycott the Jan. 5 election, infighting because the current Senators did not deliver a win for Trump, and so forth. On the Democratic side, it's all hands on deck with Stacey Abrams's organization continuing to register voters and volunteers lending a hand from all over the country.
More exciting developments including:
-Visits from Pence, Trump, Obama, and Biden himself
-The House approving to decriminalize marijuana, with bill stalling in Mitch McConnell's chamber
-A more urgent need than ever for COVID relief
-Asian Americans and 18-year-olds in Georgia could play a key part for delivering a win for Democrats, just as they did for Biden
All eyes are on John Lewis and Jimmy Carter's home state. In conclusion, the fate of the country rests on Georgia.
The Senate runoffs heat up with Loeffler accusing Warnock, a long-time pastor, of being a communist and Fidel Castro's friend. Both GOP incumbents provide plenty of ammo for their challengers in the form of stock trades, profiteering off of the pandemic while downplaying it to their constituents.
Meanwhile, Republicans are in disarray, with voices advising to boycott the Jan. 5 election, infighting because the current Senators did not deliver a win for Trump, and so forth. On the Democratic side, it's all hands on deck with Stacey Abrams's organization continuing to register voters and volunteers lending a hand from all over the country.
More exciting developments including:
-Visits from Pence, Trump, Obama, and Biden himself
-The House approving to decriminalize marijuana, with bill stalling in Mitch McConnell's chamber
-A more urgent need than ever for COVID relief
-Asian Americans and 18-year-olds in Georgia could play a key part for delivering a win for Democrats, just as they did for Biden
All eyes are on John Lewis and Jimmy Carter's home state. In conclusion, the fate of the country rests on Georgia.
As of today (2020-12-05) I've gotten 22 pieces of mail related to the runoff (I live just outside metro Atlanta). I don't think I got any election related mail during the primaries or general election.
I don't watch TV so I'm not aware of what the ads look like, but all the mail I've gotten has been about registering to vote and how to request an absentee ballot, or from the Ossoff and Warnock campaigns. I haven't gotten anything from the insider-trading duo, and I've wondered if that's because they're all so busy fighting each other that no one has had time to actually campaign.
I also got my absentee ballot in the mail yesterday, and I'm dropping it off at the county election board office on my way to the grocery store in a few hours.
Like hydropsyche says, as a state we're usually ignored during election cycles. So it's weird to see all the focus on us. And yeah, it's kind of terrifying to see just how off the rails a lot of the Republican party has gone.
posted by ralan at 5:01 AM on December 5, 2020 [32 favorites]
I don't watch TV so I'm not aware of what the ads look like, but all the mail I've gotten has been about registering to vote and how to request an absentee ballot, or from the Ossoff and Warnock campaigns. I haven't gotten anything from the insider-trading duo, and I've wondered if that's because they're all so busy fighting each other that no one has had time to actually campaign.
I also got my absentee ballot in the mail yesterday, and I'm dropping it off at the county election board office on my way to the grocery store in a few hours.
Like hydropsyche says, as a state we're usually ignored during election cycles. So it's weird to see all the focus on us. And yeah, it's kind of terrifying to see just how off the rails a lot of the Republican party has gone.
posted by ralan at 5:01 AM on December 5, 2020 [32 favorites]
Veep Uncut for Georgia. Here's a treat for Veep fans, on sunday they'll be doing a table read of season 5 episode 2, 'Ne-VA-da'. Since we live in the veepiest timeline, this episode has of course come true, down to the districts involved in the recount and the debate over how to pronounce Nevada that we had right here on mefi. Stephen Colbert, Mark Hamill, Don Cheadle and Patton Oswalt will be making guest appearances, and all the donations are going to ActBlue to support the Georgia senate races.
It's the uncut script too, so all that stuff that was too crazy for veep, the Trump admin was like Hold My Beer for the last four years. Rudy's been LARPing a veep character for so long now it's gotta be a challenge to satirize *waves arms wildly* ALL OF THIS.
posted by adept256 at 5:18 AM on December 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
It's the uncut script too, so all that stuff that was too crazy for veep, the Trump admin was like Hold My Beer for the last four years. Rudy's been LARPing a veep character for so long now it's gotta be a challenge to satirize *waves arms wildly* ALL OF THIS.
posted by adept256 at 5:18 AM on December 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
“Dan Crenshaw is a globalist John McCain in an eyepatch who loves to party hardy while our country burns.”
The Republican schism is strange to see in these unprecedented times.
posted by Monochrome at 5:28 AM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
The Republican schism is strange to see in these unprecedented times.
posted by Monochrome at 5:28 AM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
I’ve decided to don my N95 and vote in person. My absentee ballot in the General was accepted, but I worry about signature-matching issues from predominantly D-leaning neighborhoods.
posted by Fritzle at 5:44 AM on December 5, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by Fritzle at 5:44 AM on December 5, 2020 [18 favorites]
I like to hope there is a Republican senator (even more than one) that is so fed up with Mitch McConnell that they'd cross to the Democratic side to liberate the Senate from his control.
They might even argue successfully their constituents would see benefits they would not get from the McConnell controlled Senate.
posted by rochrobbb at 6:15 AM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
They might even argue successfully their constituents would see benefits they would not get from the McConnell controlled Senate.
posted by rochrobbb at 6:15 AM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
I live on the west edge of Atlanta metro and I have received many applications for ballots. I’ve sent mine in, but thanks for thinking of us, y’all!
I’m not putting too much trust in the “republicans in disarray” story but it’s a nice thought, and it’s fun to see the face eating leopards eat each other’s faces sometimes.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:24 AM on December 5, 2020 [29 favorites]
I’m not putting too much trust in the “republicans in disarray” story but it’s a nice thought, and it’s fun to see the face eating leopards eat each other’s faces sometimes.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:24 AM on December 5, 2020 [29 favorites]
Lincoln project is on it with more good work aimed at the small-r republican crowd
yes, I know, I know
If you want to volunteer (although, honestly, apart from phone banking, all of the out-of-state volunteer people are saturated), MOBILIZE.US has got your back
posted by lalochezia at 6:53 AM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
yes, I know, I know
If you want to volunteer (although, honestly, apart from phone banking, all of the out-of-state volunteer people are saturated), MOBILIZE.US has got your back
posted by lalochezia at 6:53 AM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
rochrobb, I'm sorry but that's a total fantasy. We keep making the mistake of "surely the other side has a sense of decency somewhere in there." They have proven over and over again that they don't. And the anti-masking proves they don't even have a sense of self-preservation.
posted by rikschell at 6:55 AM on December 5, 2020 [59 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 6:55 AM on December 5, 2020 [59 favorites]
Amanda Marcotte @ Salon on why these public and high-level Republican schisms might not have all that much effect: Don't be fooled: Trump's conspiracy theories won't discourage Georgia Republicans; Republican voters aren't fooled by Trump's lies about "rigged" elections — they think they're in on the con.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:55 AM on December 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 6:55 AM on December 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
That is not a very convincing argument by Marcotte. It relies on one poll and her gut feeling.
posted by schoolgirl report at 7:07 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by schoolgirl report at 7:07 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Republican voters aren't fooled by Trump's lies about "rigged" elections — they think they're in on the con.
The public disarray is funny to watch and I hope it continues, but I am really doubtful that it will lead to big decreases in voting. Just like with the huge number of repubs who say in surveys that Trump really was the winner, but don't necessarily believe it -- this is all highly performative and in the end I think they will line up and vote for their candidates.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [16 favorites]
The public disarray is funny to watch and I hope it continues, but I am really doubtful that it will lead to big decreases in voting. Just like with the huge number of repubs who say in surveys that Trump really was the winner, but don't necessarily believe it -- this is all highly performative and in the end I think they will line up and vote for their candidates.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [16 favorites]
See also lying to pollsters.
posted by box at 7:33 AM on December 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 7:33 AM on December 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
That all depends on whether or not Trump is on the ballot. That could go a couple of ways. He could say vote for these people to avenge me, or Georgia republicans are rotten and they didn't have my back when I needed them. Either way, any campaign rally he hosts will be about 2% of that, and the rest will be airing of grievances and how he totally fucking won the election.
I feel like his wounded narcissism will blow it up for republicans. The outcome of this election will make no difference to the most important thing of all, himself. But he is burning with the betrayal of those in GA that have turned away from the cult.
posted by adept256 at 7:39 AM on December 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I feel like his wounded narcissism will blow it up for republicans. The outcome of this election will make no difference to the most important thing of all, himself. But he is burning with the betrayal of those in GA that have turned away from the cult.
posted by adept256 at 7:39 AM on December 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
> I like to hope there is a Republican senator (even more than one) that is so fed up with Mitch McConnell that they'd cross to the Democratic side to liberate the Senate from his control.
uhhh have you seen the republican senators, though? the last moderate republican was olympia snowe, and she’s been out of office a good long while.
for my part, i’m diligently not thinking of senator switch situations, because there’s a certain fellow from west virginia who might decide to ruin everything. like the only powerful leader switches i’ll be thinking about this holiday season all involve vanessa hudgens, thank you very much.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:46 AM on December 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
uhhh have you seen the republican senators, though? the last moderate republican was olympia snowe, and she’s been out of office a good long while.
for my part, i’m diligently not thinking of senator switch situations, because there’s a certain fellow from west virginia who might decide to ruin everything. like the only powerful leader switches i’ll be thinking about this holiday season all involve vanessa hudgens, thank you very much.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:46 AM on December 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
keep your celebrity domme/switch fantasies out of this thread thomas pynchon
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:08 AM on December 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:08 AM on December 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
senate switch 2: switched again!
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 8:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 8:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Is this going to be another R-leading / wait for the mail votes election?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:20 AM on December 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:20 AM on December 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Been working on my hex skills, but so far can only curse the hands and lips. #notaderail
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:21 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:21 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's so weird after years of Georgia being neglected--
This, to me, is the biggest reason to do away with the electoral college. Campaigns focused mostly on the the “must have” states further stifles the needs and voices of the neglected.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:02 AM on December 5, 2020 [34 favorites]
This, to me, is the biggest reason to do away with the electoral college. Campaigns focused mostly on the the “must have” states further stifles the needs and voices of the neglected.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:02 AM on December 5, 2020 [34 favorites]
The trolls over at /r/ParlerTrick have gone into overdrive making memes to foment the schism. It is amazing to behold.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:04 AM on December 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:04 AM on December 5, 2020 [11 favorites]
GOP has this, easily.
Our side doesn't have a 24/7 propaganda outlet telling voters who the bad guys/good guys are. My guess is most D leaning voters don't really know who McConnell is, or at best have some vague idea about him. Most D leaning voters know that Trump is gone and voting for that was enough hassle—during a pandemic—and the rest is Bothsides-Inside Baseball stuff and the election is over already isn't it?
I'll be happy to be wrong on this prediction. My wife and I have filled out a stack of postcards that are Georgia-bound and have made some donations, but you have to be realistic about things.
posted by SoberHighland at 9:04 AM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
Our side doesn't have a 24/7 propaganda outlet telling voters who the bad guys/good guys are. My guess is most D leaning voters don't really know who McConnell is, or at best have some vague idea about him. Most D leaning voters know that Trump is gone and voting for that was enough hassle—during a pandemic—and the rest is Bothsides-Inside Baseball stuff and the election is over already isn't it?
I'll be happy to be wrong on this prediction. My wife and I have filled out a stack of postcards that are Georgia-bound and have made some donations, but you have to be realistic about things.
posted by SoberHighland at 9:04 AM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
The trolls over at /r/ParlerTrick have gone into overdrive making memes to foment the schism. It is amazing to behold.
OMG that entire thread is wonderful. Any idea if the trolls are having an impact on Parler? I tried to take a peek around Parler a few days ago and they force you to create an account and damnit if I’ll give them any of my info.
posted by photoslob at 9:25 AM on December 5, 2020
OMG that entire thread is wonderful. Any idea if the trolls are having an impact on Parler? I tried to take a peek around Parler a few days ago and they force you to create an account and damnit if I’ll give them any of my info.
posted by photoslob at 9:25 AM on December 5, 2020
The trolls over at /r/ParlerTrick have gone into overdrive making memes to foment the schism.
Uh, is anyone else worried about Jurassic Park-level hubris involved in feeding the paranoia of people we have to share a country with?
posted by Monochrome at 9:45 AM on December 5, 2020 [37 favorites]
Uh, is anyone else worried about Jurassic Park-level hubris involved in feeding the paranoia of people we have to share a country with?
posted by Monochrome at 9:45 AM on December 5, 2020 [37 favorites]
If Democrats win in Senate runoff elections in Georgia, marijuana will be decriminalized nationwide.
Pass it on.
posted by mikelieman at 10:00 AM on December 5, 2020 [50 favorites]
Pass it on.
posted by mikelieman at 10:00 AM on December 5, 2020 [50 favorites]
Yeah about riling up the crazies. As that Sterling fellow said in his marvelous 'this has got to stop' speech, someone's going to get hurt, someone's going to get shot, someone's going to get killed.
He might be right. All this gasoline splashing around, who would be surprised? There's a bizarre new cult that believes democrats drink baby blood, and the president is winking at them.
That guy, Sterling, he's a life-long republican. He's saying it has to stop. If you want to amplify any republican voice, maybe choose one that's saying perhaps the only thing we can all agree upon.
posted by adept256 at 10:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
He might be right. All this gasoline splashing around, who would be surprised? There's a bizarre new cult that believes democrats drink baby blood, and the president is winking at them.
That guy, Sterling, he's a life-long republican. He's saying it has to stop. If you want to amplify any republican voice, maybe choose one that's saying perhaps the only thing we can all agree upon.
posted by adept256 at 10:10 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Surely you mean puff puff pass it on.
posted by hippybear at 10:11 AM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:11 AM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
Ossoff screwed up in a layup in 2017, and now he's in another layup situation (insider trading by his opponent). you'd think the Democratic Party would have the good sense to try to nurture great candidates for Senate seats.
I guess they're stuck this time, again.
posted by Yowser at 10:19 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
I guess they're stuck this time, again.
posted by Yowser at 10:19 AM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
If Democrats win in Senate runoff elections in Georgia, marijuana will be decriminalized nationwide.
Will it? Manchin is still a piece of shit who won't vote for anything that even smells progressive.
posted by graventy at 11:53 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Will it? Manchin is still a piece of shit who won't vote for anything that even smells progressive.
posted by graventy at 11:53 AM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
All I pray is PLEASE GOD LET THEIR INFIGHTING FINALLY BE AS MISERABLE AS THE LEFTS AND THEY FINALLY SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT AND WE GET TO WIN THIS THING.
(as a leftist "win" means "not completely go off the rails")
posted by symbioid at 12:12 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
(as a leftist "win" means "not completely go off the rails")
posted by symbioid at 12:12 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
Ossoff screwed up in a layup in 2017, and now he's in another layup situation (insider trading by his opponent). you'd think the Democratic Party would have the good sense to try to nurture great candidates for Senate seats.
I see you're not from here. There are still number of questions about Kempian shenanigans in the 6th district in 2017. Ossoff's loss then is certainly not because he screwed anything up. Lucy McBath barely defeated Handel in both 2018 and 2020. The 6th district is a hard win for either party. But don't worry, our Republican legislature will probably re-gerrymander it next year.
Right now, Ossoff and Warnock are spending all day every day talking about how both of their opponents engaged in insider trading, how one is the wealthiest person "serving" in Congress and the other lives on a private island, how neither of them can be bothered to wear a mask let alone pressure McConnell for the COVID relief that the actual living breathing working people of Georgia need so desperately.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:16 PM on December 5, 2020 [43 favorites]
I see you're not from here. There are still number of questions about Kempian shenanigans in the 6th district in 2017. Ossoff's loss then is certainly not because he screwed anything up. Lucy McBath barely defeated Handel in both 2018 and 2020. The 6th district is a hard win for either party. But don't worry, our Republican legislature will probably re-gerrymander it next year.
Right now, Ossoff and Warnock are spending all day every day talking about how both of their opponents engaged in insider trading, how one is the wealthiest person "serving" in Congress and the other lives on a private island, how neither of them can be bothered to wear a mask let alone pressure McConnell for the COVID relief that the actual living breathing working people of Georgia need so desperately.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:16 PM on December 5, 2020 [43 favorites]
To me, the most interesting thing about the Georgia election is apparently there was a bunch of ticket-splitting going on. I mean, if everyone who'd voted for Biden also voted for the Democratic Senate candidates, they would have gotten far more votes, right? So who are the ticket-splitters, and how do we reach them? Clearly they didn't like Trump. How do we get them all the way onto our side?
posted by panama joe at 12:20 PM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by panama joe at 12:20 PM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
I wonder if they're ticket-spliters or under-voters. It could be that some people turned out to vote against Trump but didn't feel informed enough or invested enough to vote for anyone further down the ticket.
I keep getting asked to make phone calls to Georgia, and I can't decide if I should do it. Do they really need people from out-of-state to make calls? I feel like every single Democrat in the country is invested in this election, and the potential for me to be helpful is kind of minimal. Anyone have any insight?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:35 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
I keep getting asked to make phone calls to Georgia, and I can't decide if I should do it. Do they really need people from out-of-state to make calls? I feel like every single Democrat in the country is invested in this election, and the potential for me to be helpful is kind of minimal. Anyone have any insight?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:35 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
The trolls over at /r/ParlerTrick have gone into overdrive
One of the disturbing things about the last few years has been discovering how effective ratfucking can be, even if you make no effort to hide it.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:36 PM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
One of the disturbing things about the last few years has been discovering how effective ratfucking can be, even if you make no effort to hide it.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:36 PM on December 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
The Dems are making stimulus money an explicit part of their messaging, when we usually aren't great at that.
I am wondering how many Georgian Republicans will reject $$ to own the libs!
posted by ichomp at 1:24 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am wondering how many Georgian Republicans will reject $$ to own the libs!
posted by ichomp at 1:24 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
To me, the most interesting thing about the Georgia election is apparently there was a bunch of ticket-splitting going on. I mean, if everyone who'd voted for Biden also voted for the Democratic Senate candidates, they would have gotten far more votes, right? So who are the ticket-splitters, and how do we reach them? Clearly they didn't like Trump. How do we get them all the way onto our side?
The Democrats made winning over Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump a central part of their strategy this year. It wouldn't surprise me if many of those voters simply voted for the Republican because if Trump were someone like Romney or even Bush II they would be voting Republican anyway. There are also always people who like to split their ticket because they like the idea of a divided government or the idea that they are impartially considering all options when they vote.
Maybe the Democrats can win over some more people during the run-offs because they are running on increased COVID aid, but with the Pelosi and McConnel looking like they might strike a deal using the "Problem Solvers" proposal as a framework, it seems like they issue may become less salient. Also, while increased COVID aid is popular in polls, that doesn't necessarily mean people will prioritize it when they vote.
I guess I'm just jaded after what happened in Maine with Susan Collins winning.
posted by eagles123 at 1:55 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Democrats made winning over Republican voters who were disgusted with Trump a central part of their strategy this year. It wouldn't surprise me if many of those voters simply voted for the Republican because if Trump were someone like Romney or even Bush II they would be voting Republican anyway. There are also always people who like to split their ticket because they like the idea of a divided government or the idea that they are impartially considering all options when they vote.
Maybe the Democrats can win over some more people during the run-offs because they are running on increased COVID aid, but with the Pelosi and McConnel looking like they might strike a deal using the "Problem Solvers" proposal as a framework, it seems like they issue may become less salient. Also, while increased COVID aid is popular in polls, that doesn't necessarily mean people will prioritize it when they vote.
I guess I'm just jaded after what happened in Maine with Susan Collins winning.
posted by eagles123 at 1:55 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Do they really need people from out-of-state to make calls?
My wife was texting today and getting very few responses, most of which were 'Stop!'
I'm guessing most voters want to be left alone, but calls are usually more effective than texts.
It probably wouldn't hurt.
posted by MtDewd at 2:38 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
My wife was texting today and getting very few responses, most of which were 'Stop!'
I'm guessing most voters want to be left alone, but calls are usually more effective than texts.
It probably wouldn't hurt.
posted by MtDewd at 2:38 PM on December 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I feel sorry for the voters getting bombarded but the contacts and pushing to GOTV *do* work. I hope Dems keep this energy through 22 for the Senate elections.
posted by ichomp at 2:46 PM on December 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by ichomp at 2:46 PM on December 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
I was texting yesterday and actually got a LOT more positive responses than opt outs ("Stop"); I think was the first time that had happened for me since I started texting in October.
On the other hand, it seems like there are a lot of volunteers texting, and what I've heard from organizers is that there really are a lot of voters in Georgia who don't have or use cell phones and can only be reached via land line, so I'm planning to override my distaste for phone banking and do some calling in the next couple of weeks.
I have no prediction for this election - I don't know whether it's likely or possible for Warnock and Ossoff to win - but I'm going to keep on with what the Biden campaign was telling us: "Campaign like you're way behind in the polls." Winning both seats feels like a long shot to me, but the payoff could be huge. I mean, if there's any possibility of demoting McConnell from running the Senate, I've got to do what I can to try to make that happen.
posted by kristi at 2:47 PM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
On the other hand, it seems like there are a lot of volunteers texting, and what I've heard from organizers is that there really are a lot of voters in Georgia who don't have or use cell phones and can only be reached via land line, so I'm planning to override my distaste for phone banking and do some calling in the next couple of weeks.
I have no prediction for this election - I don't know whether it's likely or possible for Warnock and Ossoff to win - but I'm going to keep on with what the Biden campaign was telling us: "Campaign like you're way behind in the polls." Winning both seats feels like a long shot to me, but the payoff could be huge. I mean, if there's any possibility of demoting McConnell from running the Senate, I've got to do what I can to try to make that happen.
posted by kristi at 2:47 PM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
Winning both seats feels like a long shot to me, but the payoff could be huge. I mean, if there's any possibility of demoting McConnell from running the Senate, I've got to do what I can to try to make that happen.
Same, kristi. This is the difference between government governing, vs. a completely DYSFUNCTIONAL government.
We have to get the country going again. That's how important this election is even if winning both seats is a long shot.
posted by ichomp at 3:17 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
Same, kristi. This is the difference between government governing, vs. a completely DYSFUNCTIONAL government.
We have to get the country going again. That's how important this election is even if winning both seats is a long shot.
posted by ichomp at 3:17 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
This, to me, is the biggest reason to do away with the electoral college. Campaigns focused mostly on the the “must have” states further stifles the needs and voices of the neglected.
With much affection, this is total fucking bullshit.
Y'all, before I came to Texas I was a Georgia voter. Neither of those states is exactly small in terms of electoral college votes; Texas is enormous--the biggest slate bar California--and Georgia is a solid to middling sized state. Both states have always had the ability to recruit progressive voters but have been hampered by lack of funding and powerful legacies of voter suppression, especially towards people of color.
The federal Democratic Party has outright abandoned those states. They give zero shits about any of the state parties they don't already see as safe bets. There is no attention or help from solid blue places aimed at places that are plagued with voter suppression and disenfranchisement. These states are left to rot, and then blamed for it.
The reason that these states are now becoming blue has absolutely jack fucking shit to do with national Democratic leadership and everything to do with locally organized outfits like Abrams, who do this work while being essentially ignored by Dems in safer areas who should be acting as natural allies to attempts to gain ground elsewhere.
It's not a matter of the electoral college, because states with large numbers of votes are frequently ignored outright too. It's a matter of total yellow-livered complacency on the part of the national party. They assume that these states are lost, refuse to invest anything into them, then are caught flat footed and fumbling when the states don't act like the cowed solid red bastions that they're assumed to be because no one fucking looked.
posted by sciatrix at 4:24 PM on December 5, 2020 [56 favorites]
With much affection, this is total fucking bullshit.
Y'all, before I came to Texas I was a Georgia voter. Neither of those states is exactly small in terms of electoral college votes; Texas is enormous--the biggest slate bar California--and Georgia is a solid to middling sized state. Both states have always had the ability to recruit progressive voters but have been hampered by lack of funding and powerful legacies of voter suppression, especially towards people of color.
The federal Democratic Party has outright abandoned those states. They give zero shits about any of the state parties they don't already see as safe bets. There is no attention or help from solid blue places aimed at places that are plagued with voter suppression and disenfranchisement. These states are left to rot, and then blamed for it.
The reason that these states are now becoming blue has absolutely jack fucking shit to do with national Democratic leadership and everything to do with locally organized outfits like Abrams, who do this work while being essentially ignored by Dems in safer areas who should be acting as natural allies to attempts to gain ground elsewhere.
It's not a matter of the electoral college, because states with large numbers of votes are frequently ignored outright too. It's a matter of total yellow-livered complacency on the part of the national party. They assume that these states are lost, refuse to invest anything into them, then are caught flat footed and fumbling when the states don't act like the cowed solid red bastions that they're assumed to be because no one fucking looked.
posted by sciatrix at 4:24 PM on December 5, 2020 [56 favorites]
Even if the senate stays red, I am looking forward to the days when the President of the Senate shows up and tells the Majority Leader to sit down and be quiet.
posted by MtDewd at 4:39 PM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by MtDewd at 4:39 PM on December 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
With much affection, this is total fucking bullshit.
Maybe there's a subtlety I'm missing, but it looks like you're missing the point.
With the electoral college geography is monopolized by any number of vectors of power. All the things you want people to spend money and effort to do just become easier without the electoral college.
You're right that it's hard and because it's hard, TX, GA, etc have been ignored. But that's not a reason to keep it difficult. Why not make it about democracy instead of ad buys?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 4:59 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Maybe there's a subtlety I'm missing, but it looks like you're missing the point.
With the electoral college geography is monopolized by any number of vectors of power. All the things you want people to spend money and effort to do just become easier without the electoral college.
You're right that it's hard and because it's hard, TX, GA, etc have been ignored. But that's not a reason to keep it difficult. Why not make it about democracy instead of ad buys?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 4:59 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
Even if the senate stays red, I am looking forward to the days when the President of the Senate shows up and tells the Majority Leader to sit down and be quiet.
"Go sit down in your seat, Mitch, I have some votes to call to clear out the backlog and get everyone's vote on record."
posted by mikelieman at 5:02 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
"Go sit down in your seat, Mitch, I have some votes to call to clear out the backlog and get everyone's vote on record."
posted by mikelieman at 5:02 PM on December 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
My point isn't that getting rid of the electoral college isn't a good idea. My point is that it's not sufficient to explain why Dems have ignored a huge number of states, especially in the South, for decades. Fixing the electoral college isn't a panacea, and it's not the root of the problem. If it's going to get fixed, Democratic leadership needs to change its priorities, and for that to happen rank and file progressives all over the country need to agitate for it to happen.
posted by sciatrix at 5:19 PM on December 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 5:19 PM on December 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
"Go sit down in your seat, Mitch, I have some votes to call to clear out the backlog and get everyone's vote on record."
Do we actually think Harris will do this?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:35 PM on December 5, 2020
Do we actually think Harris will do this?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:35 PM on December 5, 2020
Do we actually think Harris will do this?
I expect most VPs are angling for a subsequent role as President. Goodness knows what Pence's strategy is: maybe he never expected to be subsequent Presidential candidate for the Republican Party; maybe he expected Trump to crash and burn; maybe he thought he'd do best by presenting as a loyal lieutenant.
Harris isn't Pence; she's an intelligent and effective person and she's going to want to display those qualities. Also, any victories she has will be at the expense of the Republican senators. So yes, I think she'll use every opportunity to give then a hard time.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:48 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
I expect most VPs are angling for a subsequent role as President. Goodness knows what Pence's strategy is: maybe he never expected to be subsequent Presidential candidate for the Republican Party; maybe he expected Trump to crash and burn; maybe he thought he'd do best by presenting as a loyal lieutenant.
Harris isn't Pence; she's an intelligent and effective person and she's going to want to display those qualities. Also, any victories she has will be at the expense of the Republican senators. So yes, I think she'll use every opportunity to give then a hard time.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:48 PM on December 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
Do we actually think Harris will do this?
No because the Senate sets its own rules, and apart from casting tie breaking votes, the VP’s position as president of the Senate is ceremonial. She would not have the power to bring bills to the floor or require roll call votes.
posted by jedicus at 7:49 PM on December 5, 2020 [15 favorites]
No because the Senate sets its own rules, and apart from casting tie breaking votes, the VP’s position as president of the Senate is ceremonial. She would not have the power to bring bills to the floor or require roll call votes.
posted by jedicus at 7:49 PM on December 5, 2020 [15 favorites]
It's not a matter of the electoral college, because states with large numbers of votes are frequently ignored outright too. It's a matter of total yellow-livered complacency on the part of the national party.
I'm in Louisiana. I don't think the democrats can be considered a national party. Our D governor won two terms without national support.I
Changing the national party is easier than changing the electoral college,y'all. Make the Democratic party a national party, and not just a party that runs for president, please.
posted by eustatic at 8:58 PM on December 5, 2020 [23 favorites]
I'm in Louisiana. I don't think the democrats can be considered a national party. Our D governor won two terms without national support.I
Changing the national party is easier than changing the electoral college,y'all. Make the Democratic party a national party, and not just a party that runs for president, please.
posted by eustatic at 8:58 PM on December 5, 2020 [23 favorites]
Changing the national party is easier than changing the electoral college,y'all. Make the Democratic party a national party, and not just a party that runs for president, please.
This. 100 times.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:36 PM on December 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
This. 100 times.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:36 PM on December 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
My point is that it's not sufficient to explain why Dems have ignored a huge number of states, especially in the South, for decades.
Why isn't it, though? Again, it's not size alone that determines being a battleground state - it's how close the state's population is divided between left and right. And yes, Abrams has been doing important work here - but at the same time an important factor has been demographic shifts from the north to southern states over the past few decades, which has helped with moving the tipping point in several states there.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:42 PM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Why isn't it, though? Again, it's not size alone that determines being a battleground state - it's how close the state's population is divided between left and right. And yes, Abrams has been doing important work here - but at the same time an important factor has been demographic shifts from the north to southern states over the past few decades, which has helped with moving the tipping point in several states there.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:42 PM on December 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
No because the Senate sets its own rules, and apart from casting tie breaking votes, the VP’s position as president of the Senate is ceremonial. She would not have the power to bring bills to the floor or require roll call votes.
I looked at the senate rules a while back when I first thought about this, and the very first thing there is:
https://www.rules.senate.gov/rules-of-the-senate
If I missed something in the rules, please let me know, but while traditionally it may been ceremonial, constitutionally and legally it's anything but.
posted by mikelieman at 11:49 PM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
I looked at the senate rules a while back when I first thought about this, and the very first thing there is:
https://www.rules.senate.gov/rules-of-the-senate
1. APPOINTMENT OF A SENATOR TO THE CHAIRDoesn't say that the VP is ceremonial at all. Traditionally, they haven't shown up and taken up the gavel, but there's noting in the Constitution or Rules saying that she's not the President of the Senate, and that she doesn't have the privilege of "presiding" over the business of the Senate.
1. In the absence of the Vice President, the Senate shall choose a President pro tempore, who shall hold the office and execute the duties thereof during the pleasure of the Senate and until another is elected or his term of office as a Senator expires.
If I missed something in the rules, please let me know, but while traditionally it may been ceremonial, constitutionally and legally it's anything but.
posted by mikelieman at 11:49 PM on December 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
Goodness knows what Pence's strategy is: maybe he never expected to be subsequent Presidential candidate for the Republican Party; maybe he expected Trump to crash and burn; maybe he thought he'd do best by presenting as a loyal lieutenant.
In 2016 Pence's career was over; his Religious Freedom Restoration Act was massively unpopular, and as national attention turned in horror to Indiana, even groups like the Chamber of Commerce were washing their hands of him. I'm pretty sure he joined up with Trump because it was the only chance he had to continue to be a player. Since the election he seems to have been content to hang out in the background, surfacing as necessary, getting the vile shit he wants done.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:31 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
In 2016 Pence's career was over; his Religious Freedom Restoration Act was massively unpopular, and as national attention turned in horror to Indiana, even groups like the Chamber of Commerce were washing their hands of him. I'm pretty sure he joined up with Trump because it was the only chance he had to continue to be a player. Since the election he seems to have been content to hang out in the background, surfacing as necessary, getting the vile shit he wants done.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:31 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Republicans in Georgia are not in disarray. They know exactly what they're doing, what is at stake, and what they're fighting against. And they're, admittedly, damn good at it.
(Trump has again successfully tricked the Guardian journalists into focusing on his smoke and mirrors instead of the real news: Republicans in Georgia get the message, have a plan, and are at work.)
posted by runcifex at 1:10 AM on December 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
[Trump] added: “For whatever reason your secretary of state and your governor are afraid of Stacey Abrams” – a reference to the former Democratic gubernatorial candidate, who is a staunch voting rights advocate and helped drive turnout in the election and secure the state for Biden.The Guardian: Trump rails against election result at rally ahead of crucial Georgia Senate runoff
[...]Neither of the candidates reiterated Trump’s baseless claims about election fraud, with Perdue coming closest by addressing Trump directly and stating: “We’re going to fight and win those seats and make sure you get a fair and square deal in Georgia.”
As Perdue spoke the crowd chanted: “Fight for Trump!”
[...]And while neither Loeffler nor Perdue have recognized Joe Biden as the president elect, they are arguing that the Senate race in Georgia is crucial for Republicans to retain control of some form of power, in itself a tacit acknowledgement that Biden has won.
“We have a job to do here, Georgia,” Loeffler told the crowd to a lukewarm reception. “America is counting on us … if you don’t vote we will lose this country.”
(Trump has again successfully tricked the Guardian journalists into focusing on his smoke and mirrors instead of the real news: Republicans in Georgia get the message, have a plan, and are at work.)
posted by runcifex at 1:10 AM on December 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Tonight, watching from afar Georgians brave abject rampant covidity, and stupidity, (LOL: “For whatever reason your secretary of state and your governor are afraid of Stacey Abrams”. Leans forward. Yoda voice: “You will be. You will be.”)† I firmly made a couple of resolutions regarding Christmas missives for the coming few days:
1. I ran across a minor, technical paperwork issue with some health insurance stuff which seems to be a general systemic problem that I think state regulators could probably fix. So, I'm going to write to all my state reps asking them to do something on this count.
I'm in a purple Presidential swing state, gerrymandered by Republicans during the past decade during the years when they've held the upper hand legislatively (which, of course, then turned into near-continuous unassailable supremacy in locally-elected offices, while most statewide elections slightly favor Democrats) and I live beyond the edges of nearby population centers, so my reps are all Republicans.
(Newly anointed by basically a landslide of votes in November... but at the same time Trump only just barely won the town, nearly undone by the Raving Monster Looney Libertarian candidacy which garnered more than twice as many votes as his winning margin over Biden, while state-wide Biden won handily with a better-than-national-trend ~7 points, while our delegation to the 117th U.S. of American congress remains firmly Democratic, and Clinton won NH by a sliver in 2016. So, were it not for gerrymandering, we would be a sky-blue state. ←Link to a 2014 comment mentioning blue skies, in a MeTa thread from the primordial era of Fanfare—less than 90 days from beta-release launch, if my MeTa-tag-spelunking rings true—in which Strange Interlude and Westringia F. point out an embarrassing 1984 science fiction cognitive metaphor-skeumorphism from, of all people, William Gibson. ←Content warning: flashing and strobe effects; a cool video on the theme by this artist / PhD researcher lady)
Anyways, my ulterior, true objective is to cap off the pedestrian insurance paperwork request by pointing out that, although since the point that I've gotten my political sea legs I've always voted for Democrats, as I frequently find recourse to point out these days it was only in 1966 that the last Democratic state party in the US struck the phrase “White Supremacy” from its logo; more than a generation before that Black Americans were already prepared to say farewell to the Party of Lincoln. If it was good enough for them then should the Republicans ever get their shit together in the 21st century, cut out the Nazi and Quisling stuff, stop supporting foreign interference in our democracy, and persuade BIPoC voters on the whole of their sincerity, I'd readily go along too and say farewell to the party that sorta-kinda supported the Civil Right Movement and only sorta-kinda supports Black Lives Matter now, while letting grassroots people of color do all the heavy lifting.
I mean I don't anticipate them doing anything remotely like that, cold dead hands and all, but y'know, carrot and stick.
2. My next, more harrowing personal plan is to attempt to plunge between the Scylla and Charybdis^ of intrafamilial & friendship-circle disharmony and complete undemocratic devolution of society by writing a Christmas letter to all of my friends and relatives, Nazi and Nazi-curious ones included, incorporating substantial and scathing political content.
In my mind it will be soaring prose, like Ben Franklin entreating the Franco-American Alliance after a whole series of French and Indian Wars and the constant burning the Pope in effigy stuff. But still scorched-earth, no holds barred blaming of Trump supporters for lots of really bad things that have happened and are happening and harshly faulting them for lack of moral courage in challenging him and each other.
I plan to end by briefly apologizing for transgressing my family's don't-talk-about-politics-too-much, rapidly-agree-to-disagree taboo but to excuse myself by saying that as an atheist who likes Christmastime, this is my version of Yuletide talkin'-about-Jesus.
Wish me luck and the fortitude for Warren-like persistence.
1. I ran across a minor, technical paperwork issue with some health insurance stuff which seems to be a general systemic problem that I think state regulators could probably fix. So, I'm going to write to all my state reps asking them to do something on this count.
I'm in a purple Presidential swing state, gerrymandered by Republicans during the past decade during the years when they've held the upper hand legislatively (which, of course, then turned into near-continuous unassailable supremacy in locally-elected offices, while most statewide elections slightly favor Democrats) and I live beyond the edges of nearby population centers, so my reps are all Republicans.
(Newly anointed by basically a landslide of votes in November... but at the same time Trump only just barely won the town, nearly undone by the Raving Monster Looney Libertarian candidacy which garnered more than twice as many votes as his winning margin over Biden, while state-wide Biden won handily with a better-than-national-trend ~7 points, while our delegation to the 117th U.S. of American congress remains firmly Democratic, and Clinton won NH by a sliver in 2016. So, were it not for gerrymandering, we would be a sky-blue state. ←Link to a 2014 comment mentioning blue skies, in a MeTa thread from the primordial era of Fanfare—less than 90 days from beta-release launch, if my MeTa-tag-spelunking rings true—in which Strange Interlude and Westringia F. point out an embarrassing 1984 science fiction cognitive metaphor-skeumorphism from, of all people, William Gibson. ←Content warning: flashing and strobe effects; a cool video on the theme by this artist / PhD researcher lady)
Anyways, my ulterior, true objective is to cap off the pedestrian insurance paperwork request by pointing out that, although since the point that I've gotten my political sea legs I've always voted for Democrats, as I frequently find recourse to point out these days it was only in 1966 that the last Democratic state party in the US struck the phrase “White Supremacy” from its logo; more than a generation before that Black Americans were already prepared to say farewell to the Party of Lincoln. If it was good enough for them then should the Republicans ever get their shit together in the 21st century, cut out the Nazi and Quisling stuff, stop supporting foreign interference in our democracy, and persuade BIPoC voters on the whole of their sincerity, I'd readily go along too and say farewell to the party that sorta-kinda supported the Civil Right Movement and only sorta-kinda supports Black Lives Matter now, while letting grassroots people of color do all the heavy lifting.
I mean I don't anticipate them doing anything remotely like that, cold dead hands and all, but y'know, carrot and stick.
2. My next, more harrowing personal plan is to attempt to plunge between the Scylla and Charybdis^ of intrafamilial & friendship-circle disharmony and complete undemocratic devolution of society by writing a Christmas letter to all of my friends and relatives, Nazi and Nazi-curious ones included, incorporating substantial and scathing political content.
In my mind it will be soaring prose, like Ben Franklin entreating the Franco-American Alliance after a whole series of French and Indian Wars and the constant burning the Pope in effigy stuff. But still scorched-earth, no holds barred blaming of Trump supporters for lots of really bad things that have happened and are happening and harshly faulting them for lack of moral courage in challenging him and each other.
I plan to end by briefly apologizing for transgressing my family's don't-talk-about-politics-too-much, rapidly-agree-to-disagree taboo but to excuse myself by saying that as an atheist who likes Christmastime, this is my version of Yuletide talkin'-about-Jesus.
Wish me luck and the fortitude for Warren-like persistence.
† Per runcifex tho there do seem to be undercurrents The Guardian is failing to plumb here:posted by XMLicious at 2:05 AM on December 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
┈...later claimed if he thought he had lost the presidential election, he would be “a very gracious loser”.
┈“I’d go to Florida … I’d take it easy” he said.
They must've had to do the Clockwork Orange treatment on him just to even get him able to say “I” and “loser” in the same sentence.
Please don't do the tiny text thing. Many of us here can't read it. Thanks!
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:15 AM on December 6, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:15 AM on December 6, 2020 [15 favorites]
I'm vision-impaired myself; if you press Ctrl-plus and Ctrl-minus (Windows, Linux, and Chrome OS) or ⌘ plus and ⌘ minus (Mac) you can change the size of the text. And on devices there's usually pinch to zoom—Android example.
That did come out a bit smaller than I intended though, sorry; I had an issue with preview and post doing different things, then when I went to fix it after posting the MeFi server started giving “too busy” errors which cut my editing time in half, and I ran out of time.
posted by XMLicious at 2:50 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
That did come out a bit smaller than I intended though, sorry; I had an issue with preview and post doing different things, then when I went to fix it after posting the MeFi server started giving “too busy” errors which cut my editing time in half, and I ran out of time.
posted by XMLicious at 2:50 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
Republicans in Georgia get the message, have a plan, and are at work.
Can you explain this? I can't see it from the article you linked to.
posted by mumimor at 4:43 AM on December 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Can you explain this? I can't see it from the article you linked to.
posted by mumimor at 4:43 AM on December 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Is this going to be another R-leading / wait for the mail votes election?
No one knows for sure. Republicans tend to do well in run-offs in Georgia, but Democrats are motivated and Stacey Abrhams group and others have done a lot of good work getting Democrats registered.
Best advice is to work like you're 2-3 points behind, so you'er Warnocking your Ossoff, in the hopes of winning.
Also, pay a lot of attention to what Republicans are going to try and pull in this election. Volunteer to be an observer if you're a resident.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:44 AM on December 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
No one knows for sure. Republicans tend to do well in run-offs in Georgia, but Democrats are motivated and Stacey Abrhams group and others have done a lot of good work getting Democrats registered.
Best advice is to work like you're 2-3 points behind, so you'er Warnocking your Ossoff, in the hopes of winning.
Also, pay a lot of attention to what Republicans are going to try and pull in this election. Volunteer to be an observer if you're a resident.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:44 AM on December 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
If I missed something in the rules, please let me know, but while traditionally it may been ceremonial, constitutionally and legally it's anything but.
I feel the same way. The Senate website says [as far as the Senate goes...] a vice president's only constitutional duty is to preside over the Senate, whatever that means.
It usually means being in a position of authority, although the Constitution doesn't seem to elaborate on the nature of that authority.
Might as well try for a unitary executive theory for the presidency of the Senate.
posted by MtDewd at 8:11 AM on December 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
I feel the same way. The Senate website says [as far as the Senate goes...] a vice president's only constitutional duty is to preside over the Senate, whatever that means.
It usually means being in a position of authority, although the Constitution doesn't seem to elaborate on the nature of that authority.
Might as well try for a unitary executive theory for the presidency of the Senate.
posted by MtDewd at 8:11 AM on December 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
I feel like every single Democrat in the country is invested in this election, and the potential for me to be helpful is kind of minimal. Anyone have any insight?
The people in my friend group (I am not in GA) who volunteered for the presidential election have not been doing anything for the GA runoffs. Their biggest motivation to get involved was because they hated Trump, and many of them don't understand how important the Senate is. They feel like their work is done because Biden won, and are now tuning out, especially with the holidays combined with COVID-19 exhaustion. Please please phonebank if you can help and you're outside of GA (for folks who are in GA, THANK YOU for volunteering however you choose)! https://votesaveamerica.com/state/georgia/
posted by rogerroger at 8:31 AM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
The people in my friend group (I am not in GA) who volunteered for the presidential election have not been doing anything for the GA runoffs. Their biggest motivation to get involved was because they hated Trump, and many of them don't understand how important the Senate is. They feel like their work is done because Biden won, and are now tuning out, especially with the holidays combined with COVID-19 exhaustion. Please please phonebank if you can help and you're outside of GA (for folks who are in GA, THANK YOU for volunteering however you choose)! https://votesaveamerica.com/state/georgia/
posted by rogerroger at 8:31 AM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
> Republicans in Georgia get the message, have a plan, and are at work.The bits I copied from the article, in the comment above, were the part that I considered really newsworthy. In those bits, I read that the Republican establishment, in contrast to the Trump lawyers in the "Republicans in disarray" article linked in the main post, were definitely not "in disarray". They were in full campaign mode, doing things they had always been good at, and they clearly wanted to drive voter turnout. Even Trump didn't manage to steal the whole show with his tantrums. Instead, Georgia Republicans were making a fairly good use of Trump's remaining utility. During the leading-up to the election day they will figure out how to make use of him with increasing efficiency.
Can you explain this? I can't see it from the article you linked to.
Some Trump lawyers may be ballooning the idea of boycotting the election. These lawyers are not beholden to the electorate, and those ideas they aired (not necessarily their true belief) mean zilch to the Republican electoral machine. Even Trump, ever the me-me-me loser, is clear on the message that We must beat the people like Stacey Abrams.
As proven again and again, when dealing with right-wing authoritarians, we must assume they know exactly what they're doing.
(I thought the article focused too much on Trump's theatrics about the "stop the steal" bullshit; The Guardian already run a lot of articles on that.)
posted by runcifex at 8:47 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
If I missed something in the rules, please let me know, but while traditionally it may been ceremonial, constitutionally and legally it's anything but.
The Constitution is almost completely silent on the specific powers of the president of the Senate:
But anyway, the powers currently given to the presiding officer of the Senate (e.g. VP if present, president pro tempore or designated Senator otherwise) include such monumental responsibilities as:
* leading the Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance
* suspending the Senate at noon each day for a prayer
Most of what the presiding officer of the Senate does is ministerial (i.e. non-discretionary tasks that they are obligated to perform by dint of their office). For example:
There are some points on which the presiding officer has discretion (e.g. if someone breaks the rules the presiding officer can tell them to sit down), but their decisions are appealable to the rest of the Senate.
The president of the Senate is not like the Speaker of the House, who essentially runs the show in that chamber. It is ceremonial and purely procedural, and to the extent VP Harris tried to make it otherwise, it would be entirely in McConnell's power, interest, and inclination to amend the rules to put an end to it.
posted by jedicus at 8:52 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Constitution is almost completely silent on the specific powers of the president of the Senate:
The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.Everything else is left to the rules of the Senate, which are decided by a simple majority. There is no reason to think that McConnell (or any other Republican) would allow any interpretation or change to the Senate rules that would permit a VP of the opposing party to have a significant substantive role in the Senate's business.
The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.
But anyway, the powers currently given to the presiding officer of the Senate (e.g. VP if present, president pro tempore or designated Senator otherwise) include such monumental responsibilities as:
* leading the Senate in the Pledge of Allegiance
* suspending the Senate at noon each day for a prayer
Most of what the presiding officer of the Senate does is ministerial (i.e. non-discretionary tasks that they are obligated to perform by dint of their office). For example:
When a Senator desires to speak, he shall rise and address the Presiding Officer, and shall not proceed until he is recognized, and the Presiding Officer shall recognize the Senator who shall first address him(emphasis added). The presiding officer doesn't get to pick and choose who talks. It's strictly first come, first served.
There are some points on which the presiding officer has discretion (e.g. if someone breaks the rules the presiding officer can tell them to sit down), but their decisions are appealable to the rest of the Senate.
The president of the Senate is not like the Speaker of the House, who essentially runs the show in that chamber. It is ceremonial and purely procedural, and to the extent VP Harris tried to make it otherwise, it would be entirely in McConnell's power, interest, and inclination to amend the rules to put an end to it.
posted by jedicus at 8:52 AM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
Most of what the presiding officer of the Senate does is ministerial (i.e. non-discretionary tasks that they are obligated to perform by dint of their office).
We thought the same thing about the Senate's role in giving "advice and consent", but it seems to me that if the President of the Senate declined to recognise a Senator, that Senator could not speak. And how could a motion of no-confidence or dissent be moved without a speaker?
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 AM on December 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
We thought the same thing about the Senate's role in giving "advice and consent", but it seems to me that if the President of the Senate declined to recognise a Senator, that Senator could not speak. And how could a motion of no-confidence or dissent be moved without a speaker?
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 AM on December 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Josh Marshall thinks Trump was doing a callout to White Supremacists in his recent address. He brings video and confirmatory details in this Twitter thread:
@joshtpm
Curious how many people caught this reference about people in Georgia who claim "we were here also" and will "take over your farm" under the Democrats
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:18 AM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
@joshtpm
Curious how many people caught this reference about people in Georgia who claim "we were here also" and will "take over your farm" under the Democrats
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:18 AM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
...if the President of the Senate declined to recognise a Senator...
I've been watching the PBS series on the rise of the Nazis, and there was this scene when Von Papen rose to speak to dissolve parliament , but Göring pretended not to see him.
Not sure I'm eager to act like Nazis, but...
posted by MtDewd at 12:01 PM on December 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
I've been watching the PBS series on the rise of the Nazis, and there was this scene when Von Papen rose to speak to dissolve parliament , but Göring pretended not to see him.
Not sure I'm eager to act like Nazis, but...
posted by MtDewd at 12:01 PM on December 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
Why do I think Ossoff is going to beat Perdue? Right this minute, Jon Ossoff is debating an empty podium because Perdue refuses to show up for debates.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:44 PM on December 6, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 2:44 PM on December 6, 2020 [6 favorites]
Ossoff didn’t win the first time, so there are no guarantees and judging by the idiotic texts I’m getting from Democrats and the cult of Trump, Purdue’s chicken ass has a decent shot.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:49 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:49 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's so much different to 30 years ago when a campaign would be finished by particularly bad mistakes. Now, with tribalism, any idiot can be as corrupt and idiotic as they want and their team will still show up and shamelessly vote.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:56 PM on December 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:56 PM on December 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
What I want to say is, fuck you Newt Gingrich. Goldwater only won 52 electoral votes running on a Trumpist platform, which is what should have happened to Trump in 2016 and 2020. Now, power is the only thing that matters overriding any other concern of competency or character.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
Purdue’s chicken ass has a decent shot.
Well, yeah. He’s the Republican incumbent, of course he has a decent shot. It wil be a Herculean task to unseat him, that’s why people are working so hard.
Now, with tribalism, any idiot can be as corrupt and idiotic as they want and their team will still show up and shamelessly vote.
Raffensberger is getting death threats and still voting Republican.
posted by ichomp at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well, yeah. He’s the Republican incumbent, of course he has a decent shot. It wil be a Herculean task to unseat him, that’s why people are working so hard.
Now, with tribalism, any idiot can be as corrupt and idiotic as they want and their team will still show up and shamelessly vote.
Raffensberger is getting death threats and still voting Republican.
posted by ichomp at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
Raffensberger is getting death threats and still voting Republican.
Yeah and I hate a good proportion of leftists but it still doesn't stop me from thinking leftist policies are right.
If I had to abandon a political position just because a shitheel shared it with me I'd never have one.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:00 PM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yeah and I hate a good proportion of leftists but it still doesn't stop me from thinking leftist policies are right.
If I had to abandon a political position just because a shitheel shared it with me I'd never have one.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:00 PM on December 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
My god, the debate between Loeffler and Warnock just seems like a chance for Loeffler to keep spewing talking points with no pushback. They’ve just asked her four or five questions and follow ups in a row, giving Warnock no chance to respond to being called “radical liberal Raphael Warnock” roughly ten times. They seemed to dance around whether or not Loeffler thinks trump lost like it’s a matter of importance, letting her continue to talk about absolute bullshit.
At least Warnock just ignored the Supreme Court question to talk about pandemic relief, Loeffler’s stock dump, and Loeffler’s voting record on health care.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:46 PM on December 6, 2020
At least Warnock just ignored the Supreme Court question to talk about pandemic relief, Loeffler’s stock dump, and Loeffler’s voting record on health care.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:46 PM on December 6, 2020
Warnock should have given a straight response to the stock trading questions, even if Loeffler ducked it: "Yes, Senators should be forced to put their stocks into a blind trust and be prevented from trading them."
That debate was one of the saddest I've ever heard. Both parties did a terrible job.
posted by sardonyx at 8:16 PM on December 6, 2020
That debate was one of the saddest I've ever heard. Both parties did a terrible job.
posted by sardonyx at 8:16 PM on December 6, 2020
I live in Georgia's 6th district, which was the site of one of the first special elections after Trump got elected and he picked Tom Price, our old representative, for Health and Human Services secretary. Money from all over the country poured in, and so many people knocked on our door. They didn't need to do that, I was going to vote for Ossoff whether people knocked or not.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm glad that the pandemic means people won't be knocking. We're going to have a newborn and she'll be taking a nap.
posted by madcaptenor at 7:31 AM on December 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm glad that the pandemic means people won't be knocking. We're going to have a newborn and she'll be taking a nap.
posted by madcaptenor at 7:31 AM on December 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
Evidently today is the deadline for Georgians to register to vote. Earlier on Democracy Now!,
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 AM on December 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
Black Voters Matter: Group Sues Georgia for Purging 200,000 Voters Ahead of 2020 ElectionArchive link, starts at about 43½ minutes in the full show .mp4, alt link, .torrent—interview with Cliff Albright, co-founder and executive director of Black Voters Matter, and Emory University professor Carol Anderson on related topics. Anderson also published a book recently: One Person, No Vote—C-SPAN interview about book.
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 AM on December 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
Josh Marshall thinks Trump was doing a callout to White Supremacists in his recent address. He brings video and confirmatory details in this Twitter thread:
@joshtpm
Curious how many people caught this reference about people in Georgia who claim "we were here also" and will "take over your farm" under the Democrats
JFC, just when you think Trump voters can’t get any dumber they drag the depths for something so stupid it makes me want to walk into traffic. Does anyone with half a brain want to own a farm these days? Do these morons not remember Farm Aid? I know they don’t read, but I’m sure they’ve heard how badly farmers are getting squeezed by companies like Monsanto and Perdue. Why would Black folks want to seize farms when they could seize the HQ’s of Home Depot, Coca-Cola, UPS and Delta airlines?! Better yet, there’s got to be a few banks they could nationalize in Atlanta as a down payment on the reparations Black southerners so richly deserve.
posted by photoslob at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
@joshtpm
Curious how many people caught this reference about people in Georgia who claim "we were here also" and will "take over your farm" under the Democrats
JFC, just when you think Trump voters can’t get any dumber they drag the depths for something so stupid it makes me want to walk into traffic. Does anyone with half a brain want to own a farm these days? Do these morons not remember Farm Aid? I know they don’t read, but I’m sure they’ve heard how badly farmers are getting squeezed by companies like Monsanto and Perdue. Why would Black folks want to seize farms when they could seize the HQ’s of Home Depot, Coca-Cola, UPS and Delta airlines?! Better yet, there’s got to be a few banks they could nationalize in Atlanta as a down payment on the reparations Black southerners so richly deserve.
posted by photoslob at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
Princeton historian Kevin M. Kruse weighs in on the Warnock - Loeffler debate:
"The life of every African American is important" -- Kelly Loeffler
Kruse - Feels like we could workshop this down to a tight three-word slogan.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2020 [36 favorites]
"The life of every African American is important" -- Kelly Loeffler
Kruse - Feels like we could workshop this down to a tight three-word slogan.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2020 [36 favorites]
Does anyone with half a brain want to own a farm these days? Do these morons not remember Farm Aid? I know they don’t read, but I’m sure they’ve heard how badly farmers are getting squeezed by companies like Monsanto and Perdue.
I think Michael Moore put it best:
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:13 AM on December 7, 2020 [23 favorites]
I think Michael Moore put it best:
Yet as I look back on my life, a strange but unmistakable pattern seems to emerge. Every person who has ever harmed me in my lifetime - the boss who fired me, the teacher who flunked me, the principal who punished me, the kid who hit me in the eye with a rock, the executive who didn't renew TV Nation, the guy who was stalking me for three years, the accountant who double-paid my taxes, the drunk who smashed into me, the burglar who stole my stereo, the contractor who overcharged me, the girlfriend who left me, the next girlfriend who left even sooner, the person in the office who stole cheques from my chequebook and wrote them out to himself for a total of $16,000 - every one of these individuals has been a white person. Coincidence? I think not.These white people think they're together in racial solidarity but the honest to god truth is that every white guy who wants more is more ready to shank them to get ahead.
I have never been attacked by a black person, never been evicted by a black person, never had my security deposit ripped off by a black landlord, never had a black landlord, never had a meeting at a Hollywood studio with a black executive in charge, never had a black person deny my child the college of her choice, never been puked on by a black teenager at a Mötley Crüe concert, never been pulled over by a black cop, never been sold a lemon by a black car salesman, never seen a black car salesman, never had a black person deny me a bank loan, and I've never heard a black person say, "We're going to eliminate 10,000 jobs here - have a nice day!"
I don't think that I'm the only white guy who can make these claims. Every mean word, every cruel act, every bit of pain and suffering in my life has had a Caucasian face attached to it.
So, um, why is it exactly that I should be afraid of black people?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:13 AM on December 7, 2020 [23 favorites]
Okay, maybe I've lived among black people more than Michael Moore, at times in the bad part of the inner city. I have been mugged by black people (twice), and I had a car stolen by a black person. The car was abandoned, recovered, repaired, and then restolen and crashed (in the second instance by a white person).
My point is that not a single black person is responsible for those acts other than the ones that performed them. Racism isn't wrong just because you haven't been hurt by a member of the group.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:37 AM on December 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
My point is that not a single black person is responsible for those acts other than the ones that performed them. Racism isn't wrong just because you haven't been hurt by a member of the group.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:37 AM on December 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
The way I read Michael Moore (and I'm not a fan), is that we white people are brought up to have an irrational fear of people with whom we rarely have bad experiences, while we ignore the many bad experiences we have with other white people. And I think he has a point. My family is strongly anti-racist and made sure I went to multi-cultural schools and had diverse friends, so I don't think it's from them, it's more popular culture, news bias, and weird miasma, but I have definitely needed to learn to trust my personal experience rather than the broader cultural bias that had somehow moved into my perception.
The new generation of our family is diverse, they are growing up differently. But I'm pretty certain that even today, there are young people who grow up with the racist miasma and have no idea.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on December 7, 2020 [22 favorites]
The new generation of our family is diverse, they are growing up differently. But I'm pretty certain that even today, there are young people who grow up with the racist miasma and have no idea.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on December 7, 2020 [22 favorites]
The way I read Michael Moore (and I'm not a fan), is that we white people are brought up to have an irrational fear of people with whom we rarely have bad experiences, while we ignore the many bad experiences we have with other white people.
This is exactly it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
This is exactly it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
"Disturbing news from GA: Cobb County, 3rd largest in state & which swung heavily to Biden, cutting # of early voting locations from 11 to 5 for runoff, including in areas with large concentrations of Black & Latino voters."
https://twitter.com/ariberman/status/1336046348529971201?s=21
posted by ichomp at 10:36 PM on December 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
https://twitter.com/ariberman/status/1336046348529971201?s=21
posted by ichomp at 10:36 PM on December 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
JFC, just when you think Trump voters can’t get any dumber they drag the depths for something so stupid it makes me want to walk into traffic. Does anyone with half a brain want to own a farm these days?
Ah maybe you didn't actually read the tweet thread (I didn't either, write a goddamn article people, twitter is not the place for this shit), but as I suspected, its an import from South Africa. Right now and for a while, there have been attacks on/murder of farmers. I'm not going to dig into that one too deep, but they are claiming that the farm attacks are from South Africans attacking white farmers specifically. Its an attempt to rally racists over here, but there's no dogwistle for that here so it probably flew over some people's heads.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:07 AM on December 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
Ah maybe you didn't actually read the tweet thread (I didn't either, write a goddamn article people, twitter is not the place for this shit), but as I suspected, its an import from South Africa. Right now and for a while, there have been attacks on/murder of farmers. I'm not going to dig into that one too deep, but they are claiming that the farm attacks are from South Africans attacking white farmers specifically. Its an attempt to rally racists over here, but there's no dogwistle for that here so it probably flew over some people's heads.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:07 AM on December 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
Georgian reporting in. My mail in ballot arrived today, I filled it out, and I’m going to drop it off at the county courthouse drop box tomorrow. Let’s do this thang!
posted by Fleebnork at 2:12 PM on December 8, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 2:12 PM on December 8, 2020 [15 favorites]
Its an attempt to rally racists over here, but there's no dogwistle for that here so it probably flew over some people's heads.
It probably did; but it tells you something about who's writing the speeches.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:31 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
It probably did; but it tells you something about who's writing the speeches.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:31 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
but there's no dogwistle for that here so it probably flew over some people's heads.
I think it's just a higher pitched whistle, so while the usual dogs might not be able to hear it this time, the bats certainly can. (Dolphins, too, I guess, but the speechwriter Joe in Australia is referring to is way more vampire bat than dolphin or dog.)
posted by nobody at 7:56 PM on December 8, 2020
I think it's just a higher pitched whistle, so while the usual dogs might not be able to hear it this time, the bats certainly can. (Dolphins, too, I guess, but the speechwriter Joe in Australia is referring to is way more vampire bat than dolphin or dog.)
posted by nobody at 7:56 PM on December 8, 2020
(Batwhistle's probably a good term for the really esoteric racist stuff.)
posted by nobody at 8:04 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nobody at 8:04 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
Its an attempt to rally racists over here, but there's no dogwistle for that here so it probably flew over some people's heads.
I think the issue is a bit less esoteric for the dog whistle crowd -- Trump has been tweeting (and telling Pompeo to investigate) the farm attacks for several years, on and off, and there is a whole right wing infrastructure built around sharing this stuff. I'm sure it went over some people's heads, but plenty of people in his audience knew exactly what was being referred to.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:14 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think the issue is a bit less esoteric for the dog whistle crowd -- Trump has been tweeting (and telling Pompeo to investigate) the farm attacks for several years, on and off, and there is a whole right wing infrastructure built around sharing this stuff. I'm sure it went over some people's heads, but plenty of people in his audience knew exactly what was being referred to.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:14 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
Batwhistle
Batshit whistle or batguano whistle, certainly?
posted by porpoise at 10:08 PM on December 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
Batshit whistle or batguano whistle, certainly?
posted by porpoise at 10:08 PM on December 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
Two things: I dropped my ballot at the dropbox nearest to my house today. I was trying to watch Hulu this evening and every ad break was right wing republican attack ads, so I unsubscribed and deleted the app from my Roku.
I made sure to tell them why, but they probably won’t care. Oh well.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:06 PM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I made sure to tell them why, but they probably won’t care. Oh well.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:06 PM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
Interesting thing I heard on NPR a few days ago...They were mulling over whether Trump's actions nationally constitute sedition or even treason, and the commentators agreed that, as far as the Constitution defines the acts, he technically hasn't committed any such crime.
However, one commentator pointed out that many states have their own internal definitions of sedition as it pertains to actions taken against the state itself (not the federal government). It turns out that Georgia's definition of seditious acts includes attempting to coerce state leaders to overthrow an election, which Trump himself has most certainly been doing, especially by calling directly to the governor.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:16 AM on December 11, 2020 [18 favorites]
However, one commentator pointed out that many states have their own internal definitions of sedition as it pertains to actions taken against the state itself (not the federal government). It turns out that Georgia's definition of seditious acts includes attempting to coerce state leaders to overthrow an election, which Trump himself has most certainly been doing, especially by calling directly to the governor.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:16 AM on December 11, 2020 [18 favorites]
Great interview with Nse Ufot of the New Georgia Project on the Democracy in Color podcast this week if you're wondering just how Georgia has changed demographically over the last few years and why this is winnable.
posted by mdonley at 8:02 AM on December 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by mdonley at 8:02 AM on December 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, Biden appears to be going ahead with the Vilsack appointment despite warnings from NAACP president and CEO Derrick Johnson that doing so would hurt Democratic chances in GA.
posted by AceRock at 8:09 AM on December 11, 2020
posted by AceRock at 8:09 AM on December 11, 2020
A tweet from Bend the Arc earlier this evening:
It really couldn't be any more clear just where the lines are drawn here.
posted by bcd at 6:23 PM on December 13, 2020 [17 favorites]
ALERT: Kelly Loeffler just posed for a photo with Chester Doles, a former KKK leader who runs the white supremacist American Patriots USA.There's more in the thread beneath that tweet. When I posted this, near the top was a link to this article including a photo of Doles leading a Klan rally in 1992.
In 1993, Doles nearly beat a Black man to death.
In 2017, he marched in Charlottesville.
This is who @KLoeffler is proudly appealing to.
It really couldn't be any more clear just where the lines are drawn here.
posted by bcd at 6:23 PM on December 13, 2020 [17 favorites]
After a sober evaluation of available strategies, Trump calls on Georgia Gov. Kemp to resign.
posted by rhizome at 1:17 PM on December 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:17 PM on December 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Judge orders Georgia counties to halt voter purge ahead of Senate runoff
posted by trig at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by trig at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
Interesting thing I heard on NPR a few days ago...They were mulling over whether Trump's actions nationally constitute sedition or even treason, and the commentators agreed that, as far as the Constitution defines the acts, he technically hasn't committed any such crime.
The other side isn't quite so sure about that. Famed legal dingbat Lin Wood tweeted today how Pence should face a firing squad for treason, and how McConnell and Mark Meadows should be next in line.
While, at the same time, Louie Gohmert, The Dumbest Man In Congress, is busy petitioning a judge to declare that Pence has absolute discretion to simply discard the Presidential election and its electors entirely, and to name anyone he so chooses to be counted as electors on the 6th.
In case anyone thought 2021 would be saner.
posted by delfin at 4:14 PM on January 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
The other side isn't quite so sure about that. Famed legal dingbat Lin Wood tweeted today how Pence should face a firing squad for treason, and how McConnell and Mark Meadows should be next in line.
While, at the same time, Louie Gohmert, The Dumbest Man In Congress, is busy petitioning a judge to declare that Pence has absolute discretion to simply discard the Presidential election and its electors entirely, and to name anyone he so chooses to be counted as electors on the 6th.
In case anyone thought 2021 would be saner.
posted by delfin at 4:14 PM on January 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
As far as I've been able to discern, capital-t Treason requires a declaration of war. The language depends on a designation of "enemy," which is what a declaration officially creates. Sure, Trump has used the word "enemy," but generally it's sophisized into the form "enemy of the people," or a similar elision, or applied to individuals (Fed chairman, random sailors), rather than country-to-country.
Sedition I haven't looked far enough into, but I see the word and think Sacco & Vanzetti, wondering if it's actually a law anymore.
posted by rhizome at 5:45 PM on January 1, 2021
Sedition I haven't looked far enough into, but I see the word and think Sacco & Vanzetti, wondering if it's actually a law anymore.
posted by rhizome at 5:45 PM on January 1, 2021
NYT: Trump Calls Georgia Senate Races ‘Illegal and Invalid’
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:18 AM on January 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
President Trump took to Twitter Friday evening to make the unfounded assertion that Georgia’s two Senate races are “illegal and invalid,” an argument that could complicate his efforts to convince his supporters to turn out for Republican candidates in the two runoff races that will determine which party controls the Senate.Watch as I dance a jig of very serious concern.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:18 AM on January 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Sedition I haven't looked far enough into, but I see the word and think Sacco & Vanzetti, wondering if it's actually a law anymore.
AFAICT from LawTwitter (PopeHat, T. Greg Doucette, Mike Dunford among others, sorry no links they're lost in the mists of time) it absolutely is, but the TL:DR seems to be that you basically have to be at the "marching in the streets with weapons" point before anyone gets charged with it and to have any chance of being convicted for it.
Filing dumb lawsuits and putting out dumb lying press releases doesn't really cut it.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:58 AM on January 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
AFAICT from LawTwitter (PopeHat, T. Greg Doucette, Mike Dunford among others, sorry no links they're lost in the mists of time) it absolutely is, but the TL:DR seems to be that you basically have to be at the "marching in the streets with weapons" point before anyone gets charged with it and to have any chance of being convicted for it.
Filing dumb lawsuits and putting out dumb lying press releases doesn't really cut it.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:58 AM on January 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Filing dumb lawsuits and putting out dumb lying press releases doesn't really cut it.
Yet Gohmert doubles down, and goes on Newsmax suggesting that if the courts won't act there won't be any options left other than "riots and violence in the streets", Which looks like violently (18 USC § 2385) advocating overthrow of the Government
posted by mikelieman at 9:13 AM on January 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yet Gohmert doubles down, and goes on Newsmax suggesting that if the courts won't act there won't be any options left other than "riots and violence in the streets", Which looks like violently (18 USC § 2385) advocating overthrow of the Government
posted by mikelieman at 9:13 AM on January 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
That's all protected speech. He would have to actually commit the crime, like do the rioting or uprising or actually shoot people. It's not even incitement because it doesn't meet the "imminent" requirement.
posted by ctmf at 12:42 PM on January 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 12:42 PM on January 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
But he likely can't ever get a security clearance again, because that "advocating" is disqualifying even if it is protected speech. Arguably, he couldn't even get a non-clearance federal job, because that's also in the general suitability and fitness standards for federal service. But now that he's in the job, he would have to be fired by his employer, and the mechanism for that is removal by congress.
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on January 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on January 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Anyone who would give Gohmert any kind of federal job is a gold-plated idiot. This includes the voters who keep giving him one.
But he's far from alone. We're up to a gang of twelve Republican Senators demanding an "emergency audit" of election results and, according to some sources, well over a hundred Republican Congresspersons planning on objecting to one or all swing-state results. A sitting Congressman is declaring out loud that a Trump win or violent revolt are the only two choices available. And while this movement is not going to change the actual results on the 6th, it is growing in numbers daily. It is being, ever so slowly, normalized, and by that I mean that the "mainstream media" is not screaming WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE at the beginning of every newscast and article.
This is the burning cross on the lawn of American democracy. The inherent threat of subsequent violence only enhances the comparison.
posted by delfin at 7:01 PM on January 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
But he's far from alone. We're up to a gang of twelve Republican Senators demanding an "emergency audit" of election results and, according to some sources, well over a hundred Republican Congresspersons planning on objecting to one or all swing-state results. A sitting Congressman is declaring out loud that a Trump win or violent revolt are the only two choices available. And while this movement is not going to change the actual results on the 6th, it is growing in numbers daily. It is being, ever so slowly, normalized, and by that I mean that the "mainstream media" is not screaming WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE at the beginning of every newscast and article.
This is the burning cross on the lawn of American democracy. The inherent threat of subsequent violence only enhances the comparison.
posted by delfin at 7:01 PM on January 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
I kind of wonder what it will look like when the Republican party fractures, so that there are essentially 3 parties with representatives for at least the next 2 years. Even if the Republican party keeps the senate majority by number, maybe enough don't consider McConnell the leader that he can't gather the votes for anything.
Aw who are we kidding? They'll pretend like nothing happened and all stick together as usual.
posted by ctmf at 7:22 PM on January 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
Aw who are we kidding? They'll pretend like nothing happened and all stick together as usual.
posted by ctmf at 7:22 PM on January 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
White supremacy is the glue that helps these disparate factions stick together.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:12 AM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:12 AM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yet Gohmert doubles down, and goes on Newsmax suggesting that if the courts won't act there won't be any options left other than "riots and violence in the streets"
Combine this with Trump's suggestions tohis brownshirtsthe ProudBoys of having a "wild time" in DC, I really worry if there's adequate not-loyal-to-Trump security in-place at the Capitol, should the boys decide storming the proceedings is a good idea.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:13 AM on January 3, 2021
Combine this with Trump's suggestions to
posted by Thorzdad at 7:13 AM on January 3, 2021
‘I just want to find 11,780 votes’: In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor
. . . The Washington Post obtained a recording of the conversation in which Trump alternately berated Raffensperger, tried to flatter him, begged him to act and threatened him with vague criminal consequences if the secretary of state refused to pursue his false claims, at one point warning that Raffensperger was taking “a big risk.”posted by Anonymous at 10:54 AM on January 3, 2021
Throughout the call, Raffensperger and his office’s general counsel rejected Trump’s assertions, explaining that the president is relying on debunked conspiracy theories and that President-elect Joe Biden’s 11,779-vote victory in Georgia was fair and accurate. . . .
The secretary of state repeatedly sought to push back, saying at one point, “Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, that — people can say anything.”
“Oh this isn’t social media,” Trump retorted. “This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not. It’s not social media. I don’t care about social media. I couldn’t care less.” . . . .
Trump sounded at turns confused and meandering. At one point, he referred to Kemp as “George.” He tossed out several different figures for Biden’s margin of victory in Georgia and referred to the Senate runoff, which is Tuesday, as happening “tomorrow” and “Monday.” . . .
It was clear from the call that Trump has surrounded himself with aides who have fed his false perceptions that the election was stolen. When he claimed that more than 5,000 ballots were cast in Georgia in the name of dead people, Raffensperger responded forcefully: “The actual number was two. Two. Two people that were dead that voted.”
But later, Meadows said, “I can promise you there are more than that.”
In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor
...surely this?
sorry
posted by LooseFilter at 11:10 AM on January 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
...surely this?
sorry
posted by LooseFilter at 11:10 AM on January 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Quid pro quo, retaliatory threats, election tampering and sedition all in one tidy one-hour package. With tapes.
Lordy, there are tapes.
And it will do absolutely nothing to dissuade the S.S. Cruz and his Senate fishing expedition, or the House members planning on objecting on Wednesday, or the legions of zombies taking Trump's denials on faith.
We still have a Fucking Fuck thread, right?
posted by delfin at 11:12 AM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Lordy, there are tapes.
And it will do absolutely nothing to dissuade the S.S. Cruz and his Senate fishing expedition, or the House members planning on objecting on Wednesday, or the legions of zombies taking Trump's denials on faith.
We still have a Fucking Fuck thread, right?
posted by delfin at 11:12 AM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Just the _phrasing_ alone should be enough to require Trump to try to pardon himself and every other team member who was on that call with him.
"I just want to find 11,780 votes."
Not "there is a problem and I need you to recount everything again and come up with a truly accurate vote count."
Not "we have inexplicable proof that your numbers are inaccurate, which we will share with you."
Not "democracy demands that you get this right and count every legal vote."
But "I just want you to change the totals, and I don't care how you do it, call it 'recalculating' or 'new evidence' or whatever, by JUST ENOUGH for me to win the state."
He is being told by the person in the best position to know that the results are accurate, and his response is "Just do it anyway, or we may end up prosecuting YOU."
That. Is. A. Crime. Federal and state.
posted by delfin at 12:13 PM on January 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
"I just want to find 11,780 votes."
Not "there is a problem and I need you to recount everything again and come up with a truly accurate vote count."
Not "we have inexplicable proof that your numbers are inaccurate, which we will share with you."
Not "democracy demands that you get this right and count every legal vote."
But "I just want you to change the totals, and I don't care how you do it, call it 'recalculating' or 'new evidence' or whatever, by JUST ENOUGH for me to win the state."
He is being told by the person in the best position to know that the results are accurate, and his response is "Just do it anyway, or we may end up prosecuting YOU."
That. Is. A. Crime. Federal and state.
posted by delfin at 12:13 PM on January 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
That. Is. A. Crime. Federal and state.
I'm pretty sure Raffensperger does not want to be the one who lays charges against Trump, though. He's well aware the dark level of hell Trump's followers will put him and his family through if he did.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:49 PM on January 3, 2021
I'm pretty sure Raffensperger does not want to be the one who lays charges against Trump, though. He's well aware the dark level of hell Trump's followers will put him and his family through if he did.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:49 PM on January 3, 2021
And it will do absolutely nothing to dissuade the S.S. Cruz and his Senate fishing expedition, or the House members planning on objecting on Wednesday, or the legions of zombies taking Trump's denials on faith.
No and I wouldn't expect it to. For them it's never been about "he didn't do it." It's always about "Hell yeah he did it, he had to do it, he was right to do it, he's the only one with the balls to do it, besides, everyone else has done it."
posted by ctmf at 1:18 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
No and I wouldn't expect it to. For them it's never been about "he didn't do it." It's always about "Hell yeah he did it, he had to do it, he was right to do it, he's the only one with the balls to do it, besides, everyone else has done it."
posted by ctmf at 1:18 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure Raffensperger does not want to be the one who lays charges against Trump, though.
That would be the GA AG's job.
That would be the GA AG's job.
GA Code § 21-2-604 (2015) - Criminal solicitation to commit election fraud; penaltiesposted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
(a) (1) A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.
All 10 living former Defense secretaries declare election is over in forceful public letter
posted by glonous keming at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
What's with Trump saying, "They don't even assign us a judge"? Anyone know where that's coming from?
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on January 3, 2021
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on January 3, 2021
All 10 living former Defense secretaries declare election is over in forceful public letter
Here is the actual letter. And, jeez, that CNN headline is terrible. They're not simply declaring the election over -- they're very specifically proclaiming that it would be dangerous to use the military to overturn the election results. Which, you know, makes one wonder what they've been hearing lately.
posted by neroli at 3:01 PM on January 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
Here is the actual letter. And, jeez, that CNN headline is terrible. They're not simply declaring the election over -- they're very specifically proclaiming that it would be dangerous to use the military to overturn the election results. Which, you know, makes one wonder what they've been hearing lately.
posted by neroli at 3:01 PM on January 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
What's with Trump saying, "They don't even assign us a judge"? Anyone know where that's coming from?
From context I assumed that this was Trump expressing that he was unhappy with the fact that the majority of the various Trump-related election cases were dismissed before oral argument. It felt like Trump thought this was a deliberate slight against him instead of a clear indication that his lawyers were presenting the courts with sloppy, even nonsensical, arguments without evidence.
posted by RichardP at 3:17 PM on January 3, 2021
From context I assumed that this was Trump expressing that he was unhappy with the fact that the majority of the various Trump-related election cases were dismissed before oral argument. It felt like Trump thought this was a deliberate slight against him instead of a clear indication that his lawyers were presenting the courts with sloppy, even nonsensical, arguments without evidence.
posted by RichardP at 3:17 PM on January 3, 2021
Threadreader overview on the #TrumpTapes from Seth Abrahmson.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't really understand Trump's play here. If he were to magically overturn Georgia and Pennsylvania, he would still lose (270-268). Is he actively doing this in three states? If not, what is he hoping to accomplish? Is it some action to rile the Q'ers back up prior to Tuesday's vote?
posted by pjenks at 4:48 PM on January 3, 2021
posted by pjenks at 4:48 PM on January 3, 2021
How did I miss this, lol:
A group of seven House Republicans — including Freedom Caucus members such as Ken Buck (Colo.) and Chip Roy (Texas) as well as Rep.-elect Nancy Mace (S.C.) and libertarian Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) — put out a rare and lengthy statement Sunday afternoon opposing the effort to challenge the election. [...] Roy went further on Sunday evening, forcing a vote on whether to allow Speaker Nancy Pelosi to seat the House members in the states Trump is challenging. The move forced Republicans on the record validating the results of the House elections that occurred on the same ballots that resulted in Biden's win in November. The result was a 371-2 vote in favor of seating all of the members.posted by Rhaomi at 4:51 PM on January 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
He's doing it in every close state. One would have to be a credulous idiot (before, but especially now) to think that's not exactly how all those meetings and phone calls went. When he called the Michigan Board of Canvassers personally? When he invited officials to Washington to meet with him? Yeah I bet those were just pat on the shoulder, appreciate you, hang in there meetings.
posted by ctmf at 4:53 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 4:53 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor
...surely this?
sorry
posted by LooseFilter at 11:10 AM on January 3
man, i'm 30 minutes into this, and Tbag is just the biggest whiner. this is boring as hell. it's pitiful. It doesn't even read like pressure, it's more like your 5 yr old who wants a toy.
It's like he's never been in a negotiation in his life, he just keeps talking and talking, and giving them out after out, while insulting them.
if I were on the other side of the call, i just wouldn't say anything, and let him blow wind, which is what the Georgia officials do. I wouldn't be surprised if they went on mute and were checking their emails during this call though.
posted by eustatic at 5:02 PM on January 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
...surely this?
sorry
posted by LooseFilter at 11:10 AM on January 3
man, i'm 30 minutes into this, and Tbag is just the biggest whiner. this is boring as hell. it's pitiful. It doesn't even read like pressure, it's more like your 5 yr old who wants a toy.
It's like he's never been in a negotiation in his life, he just keeps talking and talking, and giving them out after out, while insulting them.
if I were on the other side of the call, i just wouldn't say anything, and let him blow wind, which is what the Georgia officials do. I wouldn't be surprised if they went on mute and were checking their emails during this call though.
posted by eustatic at 5:02 PM on January 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not even surprised at this shit any more, though I am enjoying "Lordy, there are tapes."
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:16 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:16 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
About that call, news is quickly developing:
Erick Erickson: "Georgia Republicans I’ve talked to tonight are not happy with the President, but also critical of the Secretary of State leaking the audio. “Just one more f**king day,” complained one who said had it dropped Monday after or during the rally it wouldn’t be as bad."
David Shafer, Chairman of the Georgia GOP: "The audio published by @TheWashingtonPost is heavily edited and omits the stipulation that all discussions were for the purpose of settling litigation and confidential under federal and state law."
Amy Gardner, reporter at the Washington Post: "This is false. We published the entirety of the call, from start to finish. There is no mention of it being a confidential settlement meeting. None."
Trump asks for 11,780 votes, but it's to the tune of the Rent song
posted by Pronoiac at 5:18 PM on January 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Erick Erickson: "Georgia Republicans I’ve talked to tonight are not happy with the President, but also critical of the Secretary of State leaking the audio. “Just one more f**king day,” complained one who said had it dropped Monday after or during the rally it wouldn’t be as bad."
David Shafer, Chairman of the Georgia GOP: "The audio published by @TheWashingtonPost is heavily edited and omits the stipulation that all discussions were for the purpose of settling litigation and confidential under federal and state law."
Amy Gardner, reporter at the Washington Post: "This is false. We published the entirety of the call, from start to finish. There is no mention of it being a confidential settlement meeting. None."
Trump asks for 11,780 votes, but it's to the tune of the Rent song
posted by Pronoiac at 5:18 PM on January 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
man, i'm 30 minutes into this, and Tbag is just the biggest whiner. this is boring as hell. it's pitiful. It doesn't even read like pressure, it's more like your 5 yr old who wants a toy.
It's like he's never been in a negotiation in his life, he just keeps talking and talking, and giving them out after out, while insulting them.
That's the problem, and not something to overlook, because this method of getting what one wants works a lot of the time. Can't get it from one person? They'll take the next in line, goto another line, whatever.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 5:19 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's like he's never been in a negotiation in his life, he just keeps talking and talking, and giving them out after out, while insulting them.
That's the problem, and not something to overlook, because this method of getting what one wants works a lot of the time. Can't get it from one person? They'll take the next in line, goto another line, whatever.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 5:19 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm not even surprised at this shit any more, though I am enjoying "Lordy, there are tapes."
Yeah, the Enemies of the People keep calling the recording “shocking” and it's like... really? You realize, if this is actually shocking to anyone, it's prima fascism evidence that you guys aren't doing your jobs, right?
posted by XMLicious at 5:21 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's the problem, and not something to overlook, because this method of getting what one wants works a lot of the time. Can't get it from one person? They'll take the next in line, goto another line, whatever.
posted by JoeXIII007
Well, if all you need is to prove intent of fraud, fine, get the Georgia AG on him (*googles GA AG, well, nevermind). It's just the least intimidating intimidation I've ever heard. He doesn't even support his own lawyer's request for more information.
posted by eustatic at 5:37 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by JoeXIII007
Well, if all you need is to prove intent of fraud, fine, get the Georgia AG on him (*googles GA AG, well, nevermind). It's just the least intimidating intimidation I've ever heard. He doesn't even support his own lawyer's request for more information.
posted by eustatic at 5:37 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Shafer is lying
How does that square with the tweets from Seth Abramson? (thanks to CheeseDigestsAll upthread):
Seth says:
How does that square with the tweets from Seth Abramson? (thanks to CheeseDigestsAll upthread):
Seth says:
53 minutes into the recording, a new voice is heard—another Trump attorney. And this is interesting: he makes a point of saying that all the Trump campaign demands are being made "for purposes of 'compromise or settlement,'" and that the whole "phone call" is covered by this. I practiced criminal law more than long enough to know what this lawyer is doing: trying to rehabilitate this phone call from the crime he worries it's become. There is no reason to remind all parties about the "compromise or settlement" exception here unless you're *scared*.posted by Monochrome at 5:40 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I can jump in and say that it's for the purpose of organizing an orgy and Yahtzee tournament. That doesn't mean that it is.
posted by delfin at 5:55 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by delfin at 5:55 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
How does that square with the tweets from Seth Abramson? (thanks to CheeseDigestsAll upthread):
CNN's transcript has this near the end of the call:
I will allow that it's possible that the meeting was agreed to when it was scheduled, but there's no evidence for that as yet.
posted by jedicus at 6:01 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
CNN's transcript has this near the end of the call:
Hilbert: ...We would like to sit down with your office and we can do it through purposes of compromise and just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes.That's an extremely far cry from a "stipulation that all discussions were for the purpose of settling litigation and confidential under federal and state law". It's at best a one-sided claim, not a stipulation, it's near the end of the call, and it seems to be referring to a future call, not this one.
...
Hilbert: ... So that's what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlements proceeding and actually go through the registered voter IDs and registrations.
I will allow that it's possible that the meeting was agreed to when it was scheduled, but there's no evidence for that as yet.
posted by jedicus at 6:01 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
According to the full transcript, the word confidential only appears when Trump suggests getting people to sign one of his famous confidentiality (NDA) agreements.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:04 PM on January 3, 2021
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:04 PM on January 3, 2021
Yep, clearly trying to re-frame the phone call after the fact. And, as pointed out, Raffensperger doesn't have his attorneys in the room. You don't have a compromise and settlements proceeding without your legal representatives present. That's just nuts.
posted by JackFlash at 6:05 PM on January 3, 2021
posted by JackFlash at 6:05 PM on January 3, 2021
Sadly, Trump is right about one thing in particular. He says, "we have a tremendous amount of dead people."
On second thought maybe he meant that differently than how I took it.
posted by glonous keming at 6:07 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
On second thought maybe he meant that differently than how I took it.
posted by glonous keming at 6:07 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I take that back. It seems Raffensperger had his own office's general counsel present but nobody from the attorney generals office.
posted by JackFlash at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2021
posted by JackFlash at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2021
I practiced criminal law more than long enough to know what this lawyer is doing: trying to rehabilitate this phone call from the crime he worries it's become.
The question now isn't whether Trump broke Federal law, but whether or not it will be enforced.
It is contingent upon every American to demand the new administration bring Trump to face justice.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on January 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
The question now isn't whether Trump broke Federal law, but whether or not it will be enforced.
It is contingent upon every American to demand the new administration bring Trump to face justice.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on January 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
I will allow that it's possible that the meeting was agreed to when it was scheduled, but there's no evidence for that as yet.
To clarify: "it's possible that confidentiality was agreed to when the meeting was scheduled"
posted by jedicus at 6:39 PM on January 3, 2021
To clarify: "it's possible that confidentiality was agreed to when the meeting was scheduled"
posted by jedicus at 6:39 PM on January 3, 2021
To clarify: "it's possible that confidentiality was agreed to when the meeting was scheduled"
How likely is it that Raffensperger agreed to confidentiality and then he or someone in his office released the tape anyway? If there is any evidence to support that contention, I'm sure we will hear it from the Trump team quickly. If it exists.
posted by JackFlash at 6:49 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
How likely is it that Raffensperger agreed to confidentiality and then he or someone in his office released the tape anyway? If there is any evidence to support that contention, I'm sure we will hear it from the Trump team quickly. If it exists.
posted by JackFlash at 6:49 PM on January 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is possible that confidentiality is being used as a cover, whether or not it was agreed upon, because the perps got caught on a tape recording trying to conspire to commit massive electoral fraud.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:37 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:37 PM on January 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
And there is still another 16 days of this rapidly accelerating unhingement for the world to survive. :-(
posted by Pouteria at 7:58 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Pouteria at 7:58 PM on January 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
How does that square with the tweets from Seth Abramson?
Bluntly, after keeping an eye on the many election court cases and the opinions and analyses of currently practicing lawyers & law professors on same, I don't care that Abramson used to be a criminal lawyer - when it comes to legal issues he's not far from being the Giuliani of the left. He's untrustworthy on what is or is not legal and prosecutable and winnable in court because he (at the very least) lets his wishes for how he thinks things should be completely override whatever knowledge he retains about how things are.
He may be a fine reporter for some stuff, but his legal analysis & related tweets have a high percentage of bullshit. Don't take him too seriously for stuff like this.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:05 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Bluntly, after keeping an eye on the many election court cases and the opinions and analyses of currently practicing lawyers & law professors on same, I don't care that Abramson used to be a criminal lawyer - when it comes to legal issues he's not far from being the Giuliani of the left. He's untrustworthy on what is or is not legal and prosecutable and winnable in court because he (at the very least) lets his wishes for how he thinks things should be completely override whatever knowledge he retains about how things are.
He may be a fine reporter for some stuff, but his legal analysis & related tweets have a high percentage of bullshit. Don't take him too seriously for stuff like this.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:05 PM on January 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
According to CNN, Raffensperger told his advisers he did not want the recording or a transcript of the call released unless Trump attacked him or misrepresented the call, according to the source.
And of course Trump tweeted Sunday morning:
I spoke to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger yesterday about Fulton County and voter fraud in Georgia. He was unwilling, or unable, to answer questions such as the “ballots under table” scam, ballot destruction, out of state “voters”, dead voters, and more. He has no clue!
So there you have it. Trump lied about the call so Raffensperger released it to set the record straight.
Trump has filed two lawsuits, state and federal, against Raffensperger over the recording. Trump will have difficulty claiming a breach of confidentiality when he himself first commented on the call. And misrepresented the call.
Given Trump's record on lawsuits over the last two months, I don't think anyone is sweating this too much. He's lost more than 50 so far so what's a couple more. It's not Trump's money he's spending anyway. The grift is sweet.
posted by JackFlash at 8:12 PM on January 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
And of course Trump tweeted Sunday morning:
I spoke to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger yesterday about Fulton County and voter fraud in Georgia. He was unwilling, or unable, to answer questions such as the “ballots under table” scam, ballot destruction, out of state “voters”, dead voters, and more. He has no clue!
So there you have it. Trump lied about the call so Raffensperger released it to set the record straight.
Trump has filed two lawsuits, state and federal, against Raffensperger over the recording. Trump will have difficulty claiming a breach of confidentiality when he himself first commented on the call. And misrepresented the call.
Given Trump's record on lawsuits over the last two months, I don't think anyone is sweating this too much. He's lost more than 50 so far so what's a couple more. It's not Trump's money he's spending anyway. The grift is sweet.
posted by JackFlash at 8:12 PM on January 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
He may be a fine reporter for some stuff, but his legal analysis & related tweets have a high percentage of bullshit
Yeah I finally had to unfollow the guy for the same reason. I was starting to roll my eyes and skip reading when I saw his name. Too much hyperbolic wishing, not enough reality, and the difference not indicated.
posted by ctmf at 9:02 PM on January 3, 2021
Yeah I finally had to unfollow the guy for the same reason. I was starting to roll my eyes and skip reading when I saw his name. Too much hyperbolic wishing, not enough reality, and the difference not indicated.
posted by ctmf at 9:02 PM on January 3, 2021
Looks pretty bad when the only response is "someone's going to be sorry they snitched."
posted by ctmf at 9:05 PM on January 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 9:05 PM on January 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
impeachment II, stop the pardons?
posted by eustatic at 1:00 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 1:00 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
What is the Abramson derail about? I don't follow him or even care, but in the thread linked here, he just seems to be stating the obvious. I am not a lawyer and not even an American, but I can't imagine a democracy where what Trump and his people did isn't illegal.
posted by mumimor at 1:50 AM on January 4, 2021
posted by mumimor at 1:50 AM on January 4, 2021
he just seems to be stating the obvious. I am not a lawyer and not even an American, but I can't imagine a democracy where what Trump and his people did isn't illegal.
Besides the general idea that laws are often far from hewing to the obvious, if there's one thing the Trump administration has made clear it's the extent to which American government has managed to function via norms, assumptions of good faith, and traditions rather than clearly delineated laws and precedents established by court rulings.
So when it comes to pop media claims of what is or is not legal, it's "check multiple sources" time. And a lot of times the lawyer answer to "is this legal?" lately is, "Hunh. Beats me. We've never really been in this position before or at least for 100 years. Let's see how judges rule in court."
posted by soundguy99 at 5:38 AM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Besides the general idea that laws are often far from hewing to the obvious, if there's one thing the Trump administration has made clear it's the extent to which American government has managed to function via norms, assumptions of good faith, and traditions rather than clearly delineated laws and precedents established by court rulings.
So when it comes to pop media claims of what is or is not legal, it's "check multiple sources" time. And a lot of times the lawyer answer to "is this legal?" lately is, "Hunh. Beats me. We've never really been in this position before or at least for 100 years. Let's see how judges rule in court."
posted by soundguy99 at 5:38 AM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
To follow up on that: Jesus H. Christ dancing on the Grand Old Opry stage, yes, it's a crime. But we have necessary follow-up questions for that.
1) In accordance with what soundguy99 pointed out above, is it a sure thing that lawyers and law enforcement personnel will agree that it _is_ a crime, either at a federal or a state level?
2) Is it a sufficiently serious crime that there will be any enthusiasm at all to prosecute a President of the United States for criminal offenses? (No one is touching him _now_, obviously. In two weeks, once he is (a) out of office and therefore (b) no longer has any federal pardon power, the stakes are slightly lower for that but only slightly.)
3) Is there enough (a) clarity in the law in question and (b) evidence available to the potential prosecution to suggest that a conviction might be possible? Keeping in mind the very American principles that (c) the rich and powerful never go to jail unless they've fucked over people even richer or more powerful than themselves, (d) this IS an acting POTUS we're talking about, and (e) it only takes one MAGA juror sneaking in to potentially derail things.
4) If we all just go back to bed for two weeks, will it go away?
posted by delfin at 8:15 AM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
1) In accordance with what soundguy99 pointed out above, is it a sure thing that lawyers and law enforcement personnel will agree that it _is_ a crime, either at a federal or a state level?
2) Is it a sufficiently serious crime that there will be any enthusiasm at all to prosecute a President of the United States for criminal offenses? (No one is touching him _now_, obviously. In two weeks, once he is (a) out of office and therefore (b) no longer has any federal pardon power, the stakes are slightly lower for that but only slightly.)
3) Is there enough (a) clarity in the law in question and (b) evidence available to the potential prosecution to suggest that a conviction might be possible? Keeping in mind the very American principles that (c) the rich and powerful never go to jail unless they've fucked over people even richer or more powerful than themselves, (d) this IS an acting POTUS we're talking about, and (e) it only takes one MAGA juror sneaking in to potentially derail things.
4) If we all just go back to bed for two weeks, will it go away?
posted by delfin at 8:15 AM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
And I am not a lawyer. But some people are.
Rep. Ted Lieu: As former prosecutors, @RepKathleenRice and I believe @realDonaldTrump committed multiple crimes during the phone call in which he threatened GA SoS Raffensperger to “find 11,780” votes or to “recalculate.” Today we made a criminal referral to the @FBI.
posted by delfin at 9:44 AM on January 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
Rep. Ted Lieu: As former prosecutors, @RepKathleenRice and I believe @realDonaldTrump committed multiple crimes during the phone call in which he threatened GA SoS Raffensperger to “find 11,780” votes or to “recalculate.” Today we made a criminal referral to the @FBI.
posted by delfin at 9:44 AM on January 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
I missed that there was a new thread: https://www.metafilter.com/189916/Just-find-11780-votes
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Georgia elections board member calls for probe into Trump’s call seeking to pressure Raffensperger
posted by mumimor at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2021
posted by mumimor at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2021
If it ends up 1-1 on Tuesday, and if I were Mitt Romney, I'd declare myself an independent and immediately become the most/second most powerful person in the US. He'd get to almost single-handedly decide on most pieces of legislation for the senate to pass (unless I'm missing something -- I guess Mitch would still control what gets put up for a vote?).
posted by AwkwardPause at 2:04 PM on January 4, 2021
posted by AwkwardPause at 2:04 PM on January 4, 2021
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
All I can say is that right now the Georgia Democratic Party is working incredibly efficiently and effectively, a coalition of all the people who care about our state and our country, while the Republicans are arguing about whether Brian Kemp is a hero or the anti-Christ and whether we should have the military hold a new election or if all Democrats should just be shot in the street. On the one hand, it's terrifying. On the other hand, I think we got this.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:42 AM on December 5, 2020 [116 favorites]