"it hit a nerve—especially with the scrubs"
December 15, 2020 11:38 AM Subscribe
"TLC always held the position that non-scrubs shouldn’t be bothered by 'No Scrubs.'" In response to TLC's 1999 song "No Scrubs" (video), as Julian Kimble wrote for The Ringer, Sporty Thievz released the "contemptuous" track “No Pigeons.” "Now Sporty Thievz had the opportunity to build an entire song around the word, all while inserting themselves into a conversation initiated by one of the biggest groups in music on a chart-topping song."
Man what an innocent time. I was expecting it to end in Gamergate/incel style death threats rather than a chart fizzle.
posted by benzenedream at 1:06 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 1:06 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
A srcub is a guy who can't get no love from me
Hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, tryin to holla at me
I always thought a scrub was someone harassing a a woman on the street.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on December 15, 2020 [55 favorites]
Hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, tryin to holla at me
I always thought a scrub was someone harassing a a woman on the street.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on December 15, 2020 [55 favorites]
No Scrubs came out when I was 13.
In reflection as a straight lady I guess all I can say is that I'm glad I never had to live a day in my life trying to navigate the world without having internalized this song. I credit it with a lot of my early confidence dealing with shitty boys.
posted by phunniemee at 1:28 PM on December 15, 2020 [59 favorites]
In reflection as a straight lady I guess all I can say is that I'm glad I never had to live a day in my life trying to navigate the world without having internalized this song. I credit it with a lot of my early confidence dealing with shitty boys.
posted by phunniemee at 1:28 PM on December 15, 2020 [59 favorites]
As a woman who was working every night in a rap/hiphop club during the time when Scrubs came out, I was incensed that Scrubs provoked such a negative reaction. 95% of the videos out at that time had all the women portrayed in the most demeaning ways imaginable, the lyrics were overwhelmingly hostile to women. Then along comes this one trio of scrappy girls, who dare to sing a song about women having self worth and not being objects that men are just entitled to use or have however they want, and everyone freaks the f*** out. Seriously?! I had to bite my tongue so hard when my male co-workers started bitching about that song. It was pointless to argue with them about it and it could have cost me the job since I was the only woman, but I LOVED when Scrubs got played. So did all the rest of the women in the club.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:36 PM on December 15, 2020 [87 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:36 PM on December 15, 2020 [87 favorites]
Yeah what's interesting that offended guys didn't get is that it wasn't just being broke, it was being creepy. Harrassing/hollering at a girl on the street is shitty and even threatening, and the guys who do that shit aren't worth any woman's time.
The song assumes those guys are the same as the kind of guys who mooch off their moms (and presumably girlfriends) and lack ambition.
Most straight women have met, or sadly, dated men who fall into one or both categories.
posted by emjaybee at 1:44 PM on December 15, 2020 [24 favorites]
The song assumes those guys are the same as the kind of guys who mooch off their moms (and presumably girlfriends) and lack ambition.
Most straight women have met, or sadly, dated men who fall into one or both categories.
posted by emjaybee at 1:44 PM on December 15, 2020 [24 favorites]
Yeah, I credit "No Scrubs" with at least somewhat internalizing the fact that I was allowed to have standards and did not owe my attention or my number to any rando who paid attention to me.
Genius lyrics here. So aside from two questionable scrub qualifications - not owning a car (which is now a virtue but then as now many people did not live in cities with robust alternate transportation, and we didn't even have gig-rideshare then, and a working person could generally afford a car) and living in one's mother's house (again, moving away from home was a thing most working singles could afford to do at the time; it is understood to be implied here that the scrub is not helping his mother out with rent or practical assistance in a way that would validate living at home as an adult and would in fact speak to a man's good character) - none of the other scrub qualifications should be offensive.
Obviously, it's a capitalist perspective in which work is tied to worthiness and that is problematic in the grand scheme of things, but I do question whether any offended scrub was actually concerned about ableism or the commodification of humans as labor rather than angry that his patriarchal free ride was being challenged.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:52 PM on December 15, 2020 [30 favorites]
Genius lyrics here. So aside from two questionable scrub qualifications - not owning a car (which is now a virtue but then as now many people did not live in cities with robust alternate transportation, and we didn't even have gig-rideshare then, and a working person could generally afford a car) and living in one's mother's house (again, moving away from home was a thing most working singles could afford to do at the time; it is understood to be implied here that the scrub is not helping his mother out with rent or practical assistance in a way that would validate living at home as an adult and would in fact speak to a man's good character) - none of the other scrub qualifications should be offensive.
Obviously, it's a capitalist perspective in which work is tied to worthiness and that is problematic in the grand scheme of things, but I do question whether any offended scrub was actually concerned about ableism or the commodification of humans as labor rather than angry that his patriarchal free ride was being challenged.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:52 PM on December 15, 2020 [30 favorites]
Pretty much they heard the first line "A scrub is a guy who thinks he's fly" then they thought "But wait THAT'S ME I THINK I'M FLY GRRAAAAAARRRRR" Pretty much exactly the same way most people process everything, they hear the first handful of words and then completely fly off the handle. It is exhausting.
posted by bleep at 1:53 PM on December 15, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:53 PM on December 15, 2020 [14 favorites]
At the time, I had a manager who I'm pretty sure thought the song was about a guy named Scrub, judging by how she'd sing along to it when it came on the radio ("Scrub is a guy that won't get no love from me"). As a highschooler I didn't have the nerve to ask her to confirm my suspicions.
posted by good in a vacuum at 1:56 PM on December 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by good in a vacuum at 1:56 PM on December 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
"No Pigeons" was played on a constant loop on Atlanta's Hot 97.5 for about two months. Let me tell you, it is even less charming on the 10th listen. It's like it's deliberately sung off key to gift listeners with a headache. That was the only radio station that my boyfriend at the time listened to, so that song, plus Ice T's "You Can Do It" (which made me deeply uncomfortable), let me know exactly what the playlist makers thought about women. So, I desperately searched for CDs that we would both like so that we could avoid the radio.
This is just further evidence that the world would have been a better place if SWV had not broken up in 1998.
posted by Alison at 2:08 PM on December 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is just further evidence that the world would have been a better place if SWV had not broken up in 1998.
posted by Alison at 2:08 PM on December 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
I always appreciated that "No Scrubs" defines its terms very early on. What is a scrub? The singers will explain! I think the world would be better if more songs followed that example.
My spouse and I discussed other possible response songs that folks could have made:
* a defense of scrubs, from the perspective of a scrub (perhaps "I, Scrub")
* a defense of men who are being incorrectly categorized as scrubs
* a defense of pigeons, from the pigeon's perspective
* an attempt to suggest that scrubs and pigeons should meet each other for fruitful relationships
* [the song idea that would make the most sense in the original context]: a man rapping, in response to Sporty Thievz: By attempting to filter out "pigeons" you merely demonstrate that you are impecunious cowards! I, by contrast, am wealthy and secure enough to lavish attention, rides, and baubles on many women, including those you would deem pigeons, and look at how I am rewarded by bounteous babes!
posted by brainwane at 2:09 PM on December 15, 2020 [11 favorites]
My spouse and I discussed other possible response songs that folks could have made:
* a defense of scrubs, from the perspective of a scrub (perhaps "I, Scrub")
* a defense of men who are being incorrectly categorized as scrubs
* a defense of pigeons, from the pigeon's perspective
* an attempt to suggest that scrubs and pigeons should meet each other for fruitful relationships
* [the song idea that would make the most sense in the original context]: a man rapping, in response to Sporty Thievz: By attempting to filter out "pigeons" you merely demonstrate that you are impecunious cowards! I, by contrast, am wealthy and secure enough to lavish attention, rides, and baubles on many women, including those you would deem pigeons, and look at how I am rewarded by bounteous babes!
posted by brainwane at 2:09 PM on December 15, 2020 [11 favorites]
Far be it for me to dispute Funk Flex, but around my way nobody cared about No Pigeons. It was like Em vs Benzino. Like one is a legend, the other is relegated to the dustbin of history. I have Fanmail on CD, and I think it's the first R&B CD I ever bought. Keep in mind that if you were a rap fan back in the day, there was an r&b vs rap feud that was borne not of hate of r&b, but hate of how radio handled one vs the other.
The idea was that you had groups like PE, NWA, BDP and others that wanted to give the unfiltered version of the black experience in America, and "the radio" and the program directors that controlled it would only allow a smoothed out, watered down version of what we go through. So even though TLC was legendary, there was a tension there that still exists for some folks because it felt like the mainstream (NSFW image) would only accept r&b or anything that let white people and establishment folks remain comfortable, while denying 'hardcore' music.
But even with all that, it was always the titans that are TLC, vs the nobodies who responded to them, again with apologies to Funk Flex and Mister Cee, when he says “Now, nationally, maybe they got looked at as a gimmick,” that indeed was the case.
I may have missed it but the article didn't seem to touch on this aspect of things. But again, even with all that, it was never close. TLC's No Scrubs is a classic, and those dudes that replied could walk by every hip hop fan on earth, including me, and wouldn't get id'd. They were indeed, scrubs.
Also I have to point out Adele's hilarious comedy related to this song. The TLC content ends at 2:00. (NSFW language)
posted by cashman at 2:10 PM on December 15, 2020 [18 favorites]
The idea was that you had groups like PE, NWA, BDP and others that wanted to give the unfiltered version of the black experience in America, and "the radio" and the program directors that controlled it would only allow a smoothed out, watered down version of what we go through. So even though TLC was legendary, there was a tension there that still exists for some folks because it felt like the mainstream (NSFW image) would only accept r&b or anything that let white people and establishment folks remain comfortable, while denying 'hardcore' music.
But even with all that, it was always the titans that are TLC, vs the nobodies who responded to them, again with apologies to Funk Flex and Mister Cee, when he says “Now, nationally, maybe they got looked at as a gimmick,” that indeed was the case.
I may have missed it but the article didn't seem to touch on this aspect of things. But again, even with all that, it was never close. TLC's No Scrubs is a classic, and those dudes that replied could walk by every hip hop fan on earth, including me, and wouldn't get id'd. They were indeed, scrubs.
Also I have to point out Adele's hilarious comedy related to this song. The TLC content ends at 2:00. (NSFW language)
posted by cashman at 2:10 PM on December 15, 2020 [18 favorites]
(I have just now learned that of course there were multiple answer songs replying to "No Scrubs".)
posted by brainwane at 2:13 PM on December 15, 2020
posted by brainwane at 2:13 PM on December 15, 2020
Yeah what's interesting that offended guys didn't get is that it wasn't just being broke, it was being creepy.
This is undoubtedly true, and especially true for the variety of men who are functionally missing the empathy that helps them keep in mind women are people with their own lives, preferences, and choices. And there's a good argument that *entitlement* without doing the groundwork is the fundamental scrub problem according to the text.
But there's a reason why even some empathy-capable guys might focus on the "being broke" message. Men *do* regularly receive the message in multiple ways and on multiple levels that they do not have any value without a certain economic status. When that happens frequently and in an area that you're sensitive about, it's easy to *hear* that message even in a work that is saying something substantially different if it matches well enough. This is metafilter and people are smart so I assume I don't need to walk my way through analogs where well-meaning compliments about appearances on women can invoke the women-are-valued-by-appearances frame even if there are also other substantial issues in play.
No Scrubs is a catchy jam, if you enjoy it and find it empowering, I'm glad and there's certainly no reason to stop. If someone else finds it threatening it may also be worth appreciating the possibility that they may be coming from a place other than entitlement.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:25 PM on December 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
This is undoubtedly true, and especially true for the variety of men who are functionally missing the empathy that helps them keep in mind women are people with their own lives, preferences, and choices. And there's a good argument that *entitlement* without doing the groundwork is the fundamental scrub problem according to the text.
But there's a reason why even some empathy-capable guys might focus on the "being broke" message. Men *do* regularly receive the message in multiple ways and on multiple levels that they do not have any value without a certain economic status. When that happens frequently and in an area that you're sensitive about, it's easy to *hear* that message even in a work that is saying something substantially different if it matches well enough. This is metafilter and people are smart so I assume I don't need to walk my way through analogs where well-meaning compliments about appearances on women can invoke the women-are-valued-by-appearances frame even if there are also other substantial issues in play.
No Scrubs is a catchy jam, if you enjoy it and find it empowering, I'm glad and there's certainly no reason to stop. If someone else finds it threatening it may also be worth appreciating the possibility that they may be coming from a place other than entitlement.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:25 PM on December 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
I always appreciated that "No Scrubs" defines its terms very early on. What is a scrub? The singers will explain!
Yeah, but their explanation is a tautology! "No, I don't want no scrubs / A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me (eg, a guy I don't want)." It's begging the question. This has always deeply bothered me about the song.
posted by whir at 2:28 PM on December 15, 2020 [11 favorites]
Yeah, but their explanation is a tautology! "No, I don't want no scrubs / A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me (eg, a guy I don't want)." It's begging the question. This has always deeply bothered me about the song.
posted by whir at 2:28 PM on December 15, 2020 [11 favorites]
No, the "eg" is she's not gonna fuck him.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:39 PM on December 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:39 PM on December 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
whir: I'm referring to the combination of the "hangin' out the passenger side" line, plus the definition earlier in the song:
posted by brainwane at 2:40 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
A scrub is a guy that thinks he's fly
He's also known as a busta
Always talkin' about what he wants
And just sits on his broke ass
posted by brainwane at 2:40 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
don't want to get with: guys who think they are hot shit, talk only about themselves and their wants, treat women as objects, put no effort into their own lives or others
butterfly guy meme: "is this about kind men who are simply financially disadvantaged?"
posted by phunniemee at 2:45 PM on December 15, 2020 [89 favorites]
butterfly guy meme: "is this about kind men who are simply financially disadvantaged?"
posted by phunniemee at 2:45 PM on December 15, 2020 [89 favorites]
Thanks for posting, brainwane. I appreciate how clear-eyed the female musicians were about Pigeons:
“I thought it was clever,” said original “No Scrubs” song cowriter Burruss to NPR about “No Pigeons.” “I love the fact that they flipped the song and gave the male point of view. And plus, we ended up getting all the royalties from it.” (The bottom line here, to be honest.) “I think it’s fun,” T-Boz told The New York Times in 1999. “Battle of the sexes. It’s all good, because it helps us sell records.”
as well as the article's link to the "Roxane Shanté and the first rap beef" timeline.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:46 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
“I thought it was clever,” said original “No Scrubs” song cowriter Burruss to NPR about “No Pigeons.” “I love the fact that they flipped the song and gave the male point of view. And plus, we ended up getting all the royalties from it.” (The bottom line here, to be honest.) “I think it’s fun,” T-Boz told The New York Times in 1999. “Battle of the sexes. It’s all good, because it helps us sell records.”
as well as the article's link to the "Roxane Shanté and the first rap beef" timeline.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:46 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am surprised to learn that No Pigeons made it that far up the charts. I was aware of the song, but I can't recall ever having heard it on the radio. I checked it out just now and it's... kind of sad. Really trying to make fetch happen with the whole "pigeon" thing.
Meanwhile, No Scrubs still has rotation on R&B stations and has an excellent cover that was released a few years ago from Unlike Pluto and Joanna Jones.
posted by subocoyne at 3:27 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, No Scrubs still has rotation on R&B stations and has an excellent cover that was released a few years ago from Unlike Pluto and Joanna Jones.
posted by subocoyne at 3:27 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
"Really trying to make fetch happen with the whole "pigeon" thing."
Ludacris briefly picked up on 'pigeons' with his track 'U Got A Problem' from his 2000 album 'Back For The First Time' before it largely disappeared from the hip hop lexicon.
I remember hearing 'No Pigeons' all the way up here in Montreal, and then dismissing it as a novelty song. Then again, Montreal hip hop was heavily influenced by Hot 97 and Funkmaster Flex, so it makes sense that even as a regional phenomenon it would cross the border.
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:38 PM on December 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Ludacris briefly picked up on 'pigeons' with his track 'U Got A Problem' from his 2000 album 'Back For The First Time' before it largely disappeared from the hip hop lexicon.
I remember hearing 'No Pigeons' all the way up here in Montreal, and then dismissing it as a novelty song. Then again, Montreal hip hop was heavily influenced by Hot 97 and Funkmaster Flex, so it makes sense that even as a regional phenomenon it would cross the border.
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:38 PM on December 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Em/Benzino comparison is a good one.
Like, back in the 'Roxanne' days (some regrettable gender stuff in the deep cuts), a relative nobody could take on someone fairly popular (the Marley Marl cosign didn't hurt, but Roxanne Shante was a great rapper, especially for a teenager, and 'Roxanne's Revenge' slaps) and be heard. But it's not like that any more.
They're making Netflix movies about Roxanne Shante, but somebody like, say, Canibus, or Gillie da Kid, is mostly forgotten to everyone but rap nerds and beef connoisseurs.
posted by box at 3:48 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Like, back in the 'Roxanne' days (some regrettable gender stuff in the deep cuts), a relative nobody could take on someone fairly popular (the Marley Marl cosign didn't hurt, but Roxanne Shante was a great rapper, especially for a teenager, and 'Roxanne's Revenge' slaps) and be heard. But it's not like that any more.
They're making Netflix movies about Roxanne Shante, but somebody like, say, Canibus, or Gillie da Kid, is mostly forgotten to everyone but rap nerds and beef connoisseurs.
posted by box at 3:48 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Ahhh, musical battles about class and behaviour. Whenever this comes up—that No Scrubs is fundamentally a diss track on a group of men, who feel slighted by being poor—I remind people that in an era of rap beefs, vendettas played out through song, musical grudges and the like, the greatest diss track of all was Pulp's Jarvis Cocker absolutely rinsing his rival: some unnamed woman he'd met years ago at university.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:15 PM on December 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:15 PM on December 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
absolutely rinsing his rival: some unnamed woman he'd met years ago at university.
And the best version of that lyrical takedown, is the William Shatner / Joe Jackson version.
posted by bartleby at 4:34 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
And the best version of that lyrical takedown, is the William Shatner / Joe Jackson version.
posted by bartleby at 4:34 PM on December 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
It’s my contention that whatever success Sporty Thievz had (and we listened to it a few times on my freshman dorm floor, for better or worse) is due to the fact that “pigeons” is an inherently funny word.
posted by kevinbelt at 5:05 PM on December 15, 2020
posted by kevinbelt at 5:05 PM on December 15, 2020
Q for the more musically educated:
Is there a response track, or gender flipped version of
Biz Markie's Just a Friend?
Shaggy's It Wasn't Me?
Positive K's I Got a Man?
posted by bartleby at 5:15 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Is there a response track, or gender flipped version of
Biz Markie's Just a Friend?
Shaggy's It Wasn't Me?
Positive K's I Got a Man?
posted by bartleby at 5:15 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Do they still edit out Left-Eye's verses when they play on pop stations?
posted by muddgirl at 7:04 PM on December 15, 2020
posted by muddgirl at 7:04 PM on December 15, 2020
I think one major obstacle that Sporty Thievz had with "No Pigeons" is that while there is a demand for denigrating terms for women to use to refer to unappealing men, which "scrub" meets, there is already a glut of denigrating terms for women.
posted by subocoyne at 7:42 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by subocoyne at 7:42 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I heard “No Pigeons” before I ever heard “No Scrubs,” (my radio listening has often been more casual than deliberate) but I probably only heard it once. And on hearing it, I misheard “pigeons” as “b____es.” It was only later, in the context of an unrelated conversation, that I learned that use of “pigeon” and slotted it into my memory of that fucked-up song I heard that one time.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 7:55 PM on December 15, 2020
posted by Mister Moofoo at 7:55 PM on December 15, 2020
Oh dear. Do people not know that pigeon is how you call someone a chickenhead without getting slapped by your mama for using such filthy language?
Or that a scrub is a benchwarmer, an alternate, or second or third-string player? Listen scrub, just because you got into uniform, doesn't mean you're a player. Don't even pretend you're some kind of Baller; you pick up the towels.
posted by bartleby at 8:20 PM on December 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
Or that a scrub is a benchwarmer, an alternate, or second or third-string player? Listen scrub, just because you got into uniform, doesn't mean you're a player. Don't even pretend you're some kind of Baller; you pick up the towels.
posted by bartleby at 8:20 PM on December 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
don't want to get with: guys who think they are hot shit, talk only about themselves and their wants, treat women as objects, put no effort into their own lives or others
butterfly guy meme: "is this about kind men who are simply financially disadvantaged?"
The song does literally call out the being poor as a problem several times, both explicitly and implicitly.
I never heard this song at the time it came out (that I'm aware of) but started a warehouse job at the beginning of this year where they pay a radio station that plays it regularly (as one of their "throwbacks"). The song is fine, but I do find the lines about being poor, not being able to drive, etc, to be problematic. As problematic as all the pop, rap, and rock music shamelessly celebrating wealth and womanising that was around before, during, and since No Scrubs? Absolutely not. But that doesn't mean there aren't valid criticisms of No Scrubs. It feels like a lot of people here are reacting to the cultural context around the song, and prevailing views of it, at the time of release, and not the actual song itself? Not that that's a problem at all (probably a more informed and relevant take than mine for anyone who was meaningfully engaging with pop culture at the time) but it is interesting, and perhaps worth not writing off any criticism as being rooted in misreadings and misogyny.
posted by Dysk at 10:05 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
butterfly guy meme: "is this about kind men who are simply financially disadvantaged?"
The song does literally call out the being poor as a problem several times, both explicitly and implicitly.
I never heard this song at the time it came out (that I'm aware of) but started a warehouse job at the beginning of this year where they pay a radio station that plays it regularly (as one of their "throwbacks"). The song is fine, but I do find the lines about being poor, not being able to drive, etc, to be problematic. As problematic as all the pop, rap, and rock music shamelessly celebrating wealth and womanising that was around before, during, and since No Scrubs? Absolutely not. But that doesn't mean there aren't valid criticisms of No Scrubs. It feels like a lot of people here are reacting to the cultural context around the song, and prevailing views of it, at the time of release, and not the actual song itself? Not that that's a problem at all (probably a more informed and relevant take than mine for anyone who was meaningfully engaging with pop culture at the time) but it is interesting, and perhaps worth not writing off any criticism as being rooted in misreadings and misogyny.
posted by Dysk at 10:05 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
bartleby: I don't know about the other songs, but there is a response song to "It Wasn't Me." I was walking down one of the major shopping streets near me, and I heard it playing from the ope n door of one of the stores.
I just looked it up, and it's Lady Saw! Here it is--the lyrics are censored in the recording; full lyrics are in the video info. (SLYT)
posted by zorseshoes at 11:06 PM on December 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
I just looked it up, and it's Lady Saw! Here it is--the lyrics are censored in the recording; full lyrics are in the video info. (SLYT)
posted by zorseshoes at 11:06 PM on December 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm very fond of Being Scrubbed by Girls On Top, a mash-up that pairs it with a deeply ominous synth.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:24 AM on December 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:24 AM on December 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
It was definitely meant to offend, because the lyrics define a scrub as a poor guy who doesn’t know his place: having the effrontery to approach, to ask for what he wants. Given that “holla” doesn’t really imply “harass” in AAVE, only deep in the lyrics is a scrub assigned a flaw other than not being ashamed for being poor - not supporting his child - and even that isn’t obviously more a consequence of poverty than a flaw of character.
posted by MattD at 5:38 AM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by MattD at 5:38 AM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Spent some of breakfast just now talking with my spouse about this and comparing the dismissiveness of "No Scrubs" with that in Shania Twain's "That Don't Impress Me Much". To Twain, having a car is insufficient! We also discussed what Twain seeks (what is "the touch"?).
posted by brainwane at 5:55 AM on December 16, 2020
posted by brainwane at 5:55 AM on December 16, 2020
I also developed a plan that I will not carry out: use the Genius API plus text analysis to determine which song narrators from English-language songs released in 1999 would have been classified as scrubs.
posted by brainwane at 5:58 AM on December 16, 2020
posted by brainwane at 5:58 AM on December 16, 2020
It is more than a diss about being without money, that much is clear. To distill it down to a lack of money being the song's main complaint is too simplistic, and it seems to be an argument many men would prefer to focus on.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:13 AM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:13 AM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
only deep in the lyrics is a scrub assigned a flaw other than not being ashamed for being poor - not supporting his child
I don't know how to tell you this but a shorty is a girlfriend.
posted by phunniemee at 6:30 AM on December 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
I don't know how to tell you this but a shorty is a girlfriend.
posted by phunniemee at 6:30 AM on December 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
Can it all be so simple?
Contrast e.g. Wu-Tang Clan's 'Life as a shorty shouldn't be so rough,' from 'C.R.E.A.M.,' where it's clear from context that shorty is used to refer to a child, with Wu-Tang Clan member Method Man's classic 'All I Need,' where the line 'Shorty I'm there for you any time you need me' is addressed to a female partner.
posted by box at 6:47 AM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Contrast e.g. Wu-Tang Clan's 'Life as a shorty shouldn't be so rough,' from 'C.R.E.A.M.,' where it's clear from context that shorty is used to refer to a child, with Wu-Tang Clan member Method Man's classic 'All I Need,' where the line 'Shorty I'm there for you any time you need me' is addressed to a female partner.
posted by box at 6:47 AM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Uh but, we know that TLC frequently used shorty to mean girlfriend so it's very unlikely they used it to mean a child as well?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:49 AM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:49 AM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
This song upset me and I'm a woman. Valuing a man for his money is as gross and depressing to me as valuing a woman for her looks. Lyrics like "I'm lookin' high class and he's lookin' like trash" make me cringe. There's nothing empowering about that, it's judgemental and objectifying even of the person singing it.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 6:51 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 6:51 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
"I'm not interested in you" is not offensive. Period. I don't owe anyone my time. I don't owe Brad Pitt my time. I don't owe Prince Harry my time. I don't owe a homeless person my time.
The idea that women can have standards and don't owe every man their attention whenever he wants is the whole point of the song. We all make judgements in dating!!!! I accepted the fact that 99% of guys don't want to date me when I was like 14 years old. Meanwhile grown men walking around thinking how DARE you look at me and make judgements about me based on my presentation and behavior!
I really think there is a virgin/whore thing going on. If you fuck with men, you *better* fuck with me.
posted by muddgirl at 6:58 AM on December 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
The idea that women can have standards and don't owe every man their attention whenever he wants is the whole point of the song. We all make judgements in dating!!!! I accepted the fact that 99% of guys don't want to date me when I was like 14 years old. Meanwhile grown men walking around thinking how DARE you look at me and make judgements about me based on my presentation and behavior!
I really think there is a virgin/whore thing going on. If you fuck with men, you *better* fuck with me.
posted by muddgirl at 6:58 AM on December 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
Yes! Specific points in the song aside (which are RAMPANT in hip hop songs, so much discussion of money), I always felt empowered by these women dismissing a man who was demanding of their attention.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:00 AM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:00 AM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
I also kind of personally think that if you haven't had some random strange man hang his head out a car window and shout something sexual at you maybe you don't have the information necessary to relitigate the primaries No Scrubs.
posted by phunniemee at 7:04 AM on December 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:04 AM on December 16, 2020 [29 favorites]
"No Scrubs" obviously made a lot of men feel pretty insecure. Even the ones who mentally ran down the scrub characteristics -- helpfully defined in the song -- and decided they weren't scrubs resented having to check. I actually do get that! I remember being in middle school, hearing about some terrible stereotype of womanhood, and checking to make sure I wasn't like those girls. When you're not used to strangers judging you, you're not great at shrugging off that judgment. And then you get really mad that someone would dare. You get especially mad if you think the person judging you is of lower status, and a lot of people feel that way about women. I suspect a lot of women's glee over all this has as much to do with our experience over sexist pop culture (movies, tv, songs, women's mags, even staid news coverage) that makes us feel like shit from a very young age. "No Scrubs" turned that around, and some men lost their minds. It's a little funny!
There are plenty of songs by men that dismiss other men for not being a rich and successful as the singer/rapper. None of those songs became a cultural flashpoint because men listening adopt the POV of the rich, successful dude. Men didn't hate "No Scrubs" for warring on the poor, they hated it because it showcased a POV of women who wouldn't fuck them.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:10 AM on December 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
There are plenty of songs by men that dismiss other men for not being a rich and successful as the singer/rapper. None of those songs became a cultural flashpoint because men listening adopt the POV of the rich, successful dude. Men didn't hate "No Scrubs" for warring on the poor, they hated it because it showcased a POV of women who wouldn't fuck them.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:10 AM on December 16, 2020 [26 favorites]
This song is great. Women get to have standards. Not concerned with the scrubs that get butthurt over it.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:26 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:26 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I'm going to need receipts from everyone objecting to this song of their prior objections to the "you need to borrow a JOB" scene in Friday.
The song makes clear from just the fourth line that a scrub is a guy who has no money and sucks generally because he won't make an effort: a scrub is a guy "always talkin' 'bout what he wants/and just sits on his broke ass".
There is no existential threat to some men greater than the idea of being judged by a woman, especially a woman whom they regard as of lower social status. The way they talk, you'd think they were going to die of it.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on December 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
The song makes clear from just the fourth line that a scrub is a guy who has no money and sucks generally because he won't make an effort: a scrub is a guy "always talkin' 'bout what he wants/and just sits on his broke ass".
There is no existential threat to some men greater than the idea of being judged by a woman, especially a woman whom they regard as of lower social status. The way they talk, you'd think they were going to die of it.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on December 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
We also discussed what Twain seeks (what is "the touch"?).
She's saying if you can't make her come she's not interested.
I think the big difference between these songs is that TLC doesn't offer a positive image of the man that they *do* want for guys to project themselves on to. Guys can listen to "That Don't Impress Me Much" and imagine that they are the one with The Touch, and Shania Twain will walk past Elon Musk and Chris Pine and pick You. TLC is saying get on their level or fuck off.
posted by muddgirl at 10:01 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
She's saying if you can't make her come she's not interested.
I think the big difference between these songs is that TLC doesn't offer a positive image of the man that they *do* want for guys to project themselves on to. Guys can listen to "That Don't Impress Me Much" and imagine that they are the one with The Touch, and Shania Twain will walk past Elon Musk and Chris Pine and pick You. TLC is saying get on their level or fuck off.
posted by muddgirl at 10:01 AM on December 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I interpret this as a guy who is a deadbeat--living with mom, not paying rent, not having a job, etc.--AND thinks he is hot shit and a prize catch instead of kind of a parasite- AND he's a sexual harasser to boot. Strike three, yer out.
The song assumes those guys are the same as the kind of guys who mooch off their moms (and presumably girlfriends) and lack ambition.
Most straight women have met, or sadly, dated men who fall into one or both categories.
Yeah, one of my exes...Not that he was a sexual harasser or an egotist, but clearly I didn't learn from the song that dudes over 22 who can't/won't take care of themselves like adults are not a great relationship option even if everything else is going well. I suppose it would have been great if I made breadwinner money to have a SAHH who just played video games all day every day.... but then I'd think, "if I get into a car accident and I'm in a coma, he is going to blow all of the money if left alone and I can't be Money Nanny."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:09 PM on December 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
The song assumes those guys are the same as the kind of guys who mooch off their moms (and presumably girlfriends) and lack ambition.
Most straight women have met, or sadly, dated men who fall into one or both categories.
Yeah, one of my exes...Not that he was a sexual harasser or an egotist, but clearly I didn't learn from the song that dudes over 22 who can't/won't take care of themselves like adults are not a great relationship option even if everything else is going well. I suppose it would have been great if I made breadwinner money to have a SAHH who just played video games all day every day.... but then I'd think, "if I get into a car accident and I'm in a coma, he is going to blow all of the money if left alone and I can't be Money Nanny."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:09 PM on December 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I am terrible at extracting narrative information from song lyrics, and developed the impression that a “scrub” was a person who wears shapeless, durable, single-color clothing in the context of medical or veterinary work. There was even a television show about it.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 12:40 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 12:40 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Well my point earlier was that , rap/hiphop at the time Scrubs came out, was packed full of men valueing women only for their looks and treating even the good looking ones like trash. It was full of men telling other men they were losers if they didn't have money and cars and gold and women. But when a couple of women tried to say that women could have the same opinions and goals as the men, everybody blew the f*** up.
Don't mistake what was going on back then. The hate that got thrown at Scrubs was men upset that women were getting upity and acting like they had agency and power equal to a man's.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:54 PM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Don't mistake what was going on back then. The hate that got thrown at Scrubs was men upset that women were getting upity and acting like they had agency and power equal to a man's.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:54 PM on December 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
On preview, grandiloquiet said it better than I did.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:07 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:07 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
It was fun when Chilli sang the song with Weezer: yt
posted by extramundane at 1:46 PM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by extramundane at 1:46 PM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of grossed out by the repeated suggestion that "judging a man for his money is JUST AS BAD as judging a woman for her looks!" If women routinely hollered at men we didn't know, assessing their perceived material wealth, and making them fear for their physical safety about it, this might be a cogent argument. (See also: "if we just dismantle capitalism it'll magically erase patriarchy, assuming patriarchy ever existed!")
Have the same people ever once gotten up in arms about the zillions of hit songs that imply women are either heartless gold-diggers, single-use disposables, or depreciating assets?
posted by armeowda at 3:32 PM on December 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
Have the same people ever once gotten up in arms about the zillions of hit songs that imply women are either heartless gold-diggers, single-use disposables, or depreciating assets?
posted by armeowda at 3:32 PM on December 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
If TLC were the only cultural force sending a message that being poor makes you a loser, it'd be much less of a problem for them to do so. But they're not. They're not as problematic as so much other r'n'b, pop, hiphop, rock, etc, etc, but this thread is about No Scrubs, not everything else.
I can't find anyone suggesting that this is as bad as the rapant misogyny in society or song lyrics, and it is obviously never going to be helpful to play that kind of oppression Olympics.
This song makes me feel awful about myself as a woman. I don't match up to any of the misogynist expectations that society has of women, and this song makes me feel like a loser all over again on top of that as well. So does so much rock, pop, hiphop, r'n'b, etc, etc, etc. That other stuff is bad and problematic doesn't mean that this song can't also be bad and problematic.
posted by Dysk at 7:58 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can't find anyone suggesting that this is as bad as the rapant misogyny in society or song lyrics, and it is obviously never going to be helpful to play that kind of oppression Olympics.
This song makes me feel awful about myself as a woman. I don't match up to any of the misogynist expectations that society has of women, and this song makes me feel like a loser all over again on top of that as well. So does so much rock, pop, hiphop, r'n'b, etc, etc, etc. That other stuff is bad and problematic doesn't mean that this song can't also be bad and problematic.
posted by Dysk at 7:58 PM on December 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
As I like to say it in other comment threads on the internet -- this comments thread is a meeeeesss.
posted by yueliang at 10:50 PM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by yueliang at 10:50 PM on December 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Boy Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn Alison Krauss and Union Station, live, with "Take Me For Longing"
posted by wobh at 11:21 PM on December 16, 2020
posted by wobh at 11:21 PM on December 16, 2020
This thread is partially about "No Scrubs" but it is also about "No Pigeons".
I chose not to include a link to "No Pigeons" in the original post because I found it so gross that I stopped watching it after about a minute. In case you would like to compare them to see how Sporty Thievz chose to answer TLC, here it is.
posted by brainwane at 4:02 AM on December 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
I chose not to include a link to "No Pigeons" in the original post because I found it so gross that I stopped watching it after about a minute. In case you would like to compare them to see how Sporty Thievz chose to answer TLC, here it is.
posted by brainwane at 4:02 AM on December 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
There are plenty of songs by men that dismiss other men for not being a rich and successful as the singer/rapper. None of those songs became a cultural flashpoint because men listening adopt the POV of the rich, successful dude. Men didn't hate "No Scrubs" for warring on the poor, they hated it because it showcased a POV of women who wouldn't fuck them.
YESSS, grandiloquiet! Bullseye!
posted by MiraK at 4:01 PM on December 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
YESSS, grandiloquiet! Bullseye!
posted by MiraK at 4:01 PM on December 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm kind of grossed out by the repeated suggestion that "judging a man for his money is JUST AS BAD as judging a woman for her looks!"
[hot take] Judging a man's fitness to be a woman's partner based on his financial status is not only okay but *necessary* because we live in hetero-patriarchal capitalism, which means
(1) money is necessary for survival, and
(2) women are systematically disadvantaged in the getting of the money
(3) by men, for men, and to men's advantage!
Women being gold diggers is almost a moral imperative under these conditions. To call it 'classist' or 'gross' is victim blaming.
Men judging women on the basis of looks, otoh, is purely shallow and gross and objectifying. [/hot take]
posted by MiraK at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
[hot take] Judging a man's fitness to be a woman's partner based on his financial status is not only okay but *necessary* because we live in hetero-patriarchal capitalism, which means
(1) money is necessary for survival, and
(2) women are systematically disadvantaged in the getting of the money
(3) by men, for men, and to men's advantage!
Women being gold diggers is almost a moral imperative under these conditions. To call it 'classist' or 'gross' is victim blaming.
Men judging women on the basis of looks, otoh, is purely shallow and gross and objectifying. [/hot take]
posted by MiraK at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
I mean, we all have a right to say, "I'm not attracted to this person's appearance/priorities/habits/lifestyle/worldview, and I don't owe it to them to be their partner despite my lack of attraction to them."
If TLC were the only cultural force sending a message that being poor makes you a loser, it'd be much less of a problem for them to do so. But they're not.[...] but this thread is about No Scrubs, not everything else.
These statements directly contradict each other, no?
Look, we can't evaluate any piece of pop culture in a contextual vacuum, because pop culture is the product of the context (cultural, temporal, intersectional) in which it arises.
"No Scrubs" wasn't the first pop song about expecting a romantic prospect to be financially solvent, let alone flush with cash. Wouldn't be the last.
What set it apart was the way it disputed the cherished MRA notion that women, and by extension our assets, are the rightful property of any man who calls dibs on us. And for that, it became a lightning rod.
posted by armeowda at 4:52 PM on December 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
If TLC were the only cultural force sending a message that being poor makes you a loser, it'd be much less of a problem for them to do so. But they're not.[...] but this thread is about No Scrubs, not everything else.
These statements directly contradict each other, no?
Look, we can't evaluate any piece of pop culture in a contextual vacuum, because pop culture is the product of the context (cultural, temporal, intersectional) in which it arises.
"No Scrubs" wasn't the first pop song about expecting a romantic prospect to be financially solvent, let alone flush with cash. Wouldn't be the last.
What set it apart was the way it disputed the cherished MRA notion that women, and by extension our assets, are the rightful property of any man who calls dibs on us. And for that, it became a lightning rod.
posted by armeowda at 4:52 PM on December 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
Sure. But that doesn't mean that there isn't an element of validity to the criticism. It applies to do much other stuff too, which nobody is disputing, but it also applies here.
posted by Dysk at 12:40 AM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 12:40 AM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
What's obvious to me is the other elements of the song are more impactful and cheering and inspiring to most people vs. the elements that are common in many hiphop songs. Which means the criticism, while noted, is pretty irrelevant in comparison.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:56 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:56 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I guess that makes me a scrub? If it does, that's ok.
By my scale of musical offense at the time, The Offspring's "Why don't you get a job" ripoff of Ob-La-Di rated higher, and Reel Big Fish's cover of Hungry Like a Wolf rated much higher.
I have never heard the No Pigeons song, which is fine because it's terrible.
Retroactively, I find it interesting that at least two crappy 'answer songs' came from that time period, neither worthy of anything beyond novelty. Self - Moronic. There are probably even more than just these two.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:06 PM on December 15, 2020 [3 favorites]