What keeps us apart, what brings us together
October 2, 2015 9:48 AM Subscribe
Back in 2001, I went to a little digital film festival here in SF, and saw a fantastic little movie called Modern Tribalism. Covered in it: Tattoos, piercing, including extreme body modifications, Burning Man, and Zozobra.
In the Q&A after the screening, someone asked one of the directors whether she didn't think Burning Man was just a bunch of privileged white kids engaging in mutual masturbation. She said, "Look, I grew up in a family that was Italian and Jewish. We had a ritual and a tradition for everything. I feel like a lot of the kids we saw at Burning Man grew up in families that didn't have that kind of background and taking into account my own experience, I feel like anyone who wants a ritual or tradition should feel free to make up their own."
I have friends who love Burning Man and have encouraged me to attend. I'm not really interested. And that's partly because I see it (as an outsider) as being super self-indulgent and more and more filled with rich white techies. At the same time, I frequently remind myself of what the filmmaker said, and encourage myself to believe it.
With all that said, I feel like the article itself didn't shed very much light on racial distinctions, tbh. The reasons Black people don't go seem similar to the reason anyone might not want to go; the reasons Black people love it, same; and the talk of the playa being a magic place, yeah, same. I think there's more insight to be had on this topic and the article barely scratches the surface.
posted by janey47 at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
In the Q&A after the screening, someone asked one of the directors whether she didn't think Burning Man was just a bunch of privileged white kids engaging in mutual masturbation. She said, "Look, I grew up in a family that was Italian and Jewish. We had a ritual and a tradition for everything. I feel like a lot of the kids we saw at Burning Man grew up in families that didn't have that kind of background and taking into account my own experience, I feel like anyone who wants a ritual or tradition should feel free to make up their own."
I have friends who love Burning Man and have encouraged me to attend. I'm not really interested. And that's partly because I see it (as an outsider) as being super self-indulgent and more and more filled with rich white techies. At the same time, I frequently remind myself of what the filmmaker said, and encourage myself to believe it.
With all that said, I feel like the article itself didn't shed very much light on racial distinctions, tbh. The reasons Black people don't go seem similar to the reason anyone might not want to go; the reasons Black people love it, same; and the talk of the playa being a magic place, yeah, same. I think there's more insight to be had on this topic and the article barely scratches the surface.
posted by janey47 at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
Dude, if you listen to black people and not this incredibly special d-bag, they will tell you that they like to do ALL SORTS OF THINGS.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
More seriously, I think that this is a good opener, but could have gone deeper. Burning Man is cost-prohibitive for a large number of people, perhaps more so than other cultural events (and certainly more so than cultural events that are more local). But among those Black people who could afford to go, how many of them are comfortable navigating a majority-white space, especially if alone or with little support? Of them, how many are actually aware of the exclusive spaces carved out by other POC?
Not many, it seems. I also suspect that those Black people whose politics include radically taking up space are doing so elsewhere.
posted by Ashen at 10:18 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not many, it seems. I also suspect that those Black people whose politics include radically taking up space are doing so elsewhere.
posted by Ashen at 10:18 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like the article itself didn't shed very much light on racial distinctions, tbh
I agree. Anecdotes are good, but rather superficial as part of a larger discussion/topic. Here are a few links for more academic coverage of racial distribution of users of US National Parks: Race, Ethnicity and Use of the National Park System (PDF, Social Science, Research Review, Volume 1, Number 2 Spring/Summer 1999) and National Park Service Comprehensive Survey of the American Public, 2008 – 2009 (PDF) looking at Racial and Ethnic Diversity of National Park System Visitors and Non-Visitors. The ethnicity of visitors to National Parks also skews heavily white.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:19 AM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
I agree. Anecdotes are good, but rather superficial as part of a larger discussion/topic. Here are a few links for more academic coverage of racial distribution of users of US National Parks: Race, Ethnicity and Use of the National Park System (PDF, Social Science, Research Review, Volume 1, Number 2 Spring/Summer 1999) and National Park Service Comprehensive Survey of the American Public, 2008 – 2009 (PDF) looking at Racial and Ethnic Diversity of National Park System Visitors and Non-Visitors. The ethnicity of visitors to National Parks also skews heavily white.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:19 AM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Dude, if you listen to black people and not this incredibly special d-bag, they will tell you that they like to do ALL SORTS OF THINGS.
Who are you referring to?
posted by feckless at 10:25 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who are you referring to?
posted by feckless at 10:25 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sorry -- Larry Harvey comes off as a d-bag. Stew is not a d-bag.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:29 AM on October 2, 2015
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:29 AM on October 2, 2015
You can get a longer view from one of the people (Tyra Fennell) quoted in the essay here and here.
I would say that in general it was fascinating to hear a lot of people who aren't black, or aren't burners, or are neither, opine on why "black people don't go to Burning Man", triggered by Larry Harvey's original and ignorant statement. Listening to actual black burners (even in the brief form of the original article) seems like a good place for all of those folks to start before they say much more.
posted by feckless at 10:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I would say that in general it was fascinating to hear a lot of people who aren't black, or aren't burners, or are neither, opine on why "black people don't go to Burning Man", triggered by Larry Harvey's original and ignorant statement. Listening to actual black burners (even in the brief form of the original article) seems like a good place for all of those folks to start before they say much more.
posted by feckless at 10:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Harvey's statement is tone deaf, but I'm not sure it's wrong.
I found this illuminating.
The cost could easily explain why more POC don't go to Burning Man—after ticket, travel, and lost work time, you're talking about easily $1000—but it doesn't explain underrepresentation in other outdoorsy activities. If you live near nature—ie any major settlement on the West Coast—travel expenses are pretty small.
When I was poorer than I am now (SNAP etc), camping in nearby forests was one of the only recreational activities I felt I *could* afford, at least while I was living nearby.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:53 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I found this illuminating.
The cost could easily explain why more POC don't go to Burning Man—after ticket, travel, and lost work time, you're talking about easily $1000—but it doesn't explain underrepresentation in other outdoorsy activities. If you live near nature—ie any major settlement on the West Coast—travel expenses are pretty small.
When I was poorer than I am now (SNAP etc), camping in nearby forests was one of the only recreational activities I felt I *could* afford, at least while I was living nearby.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:53 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Now that I think of it, black people live overwhelmingly in cities or in the Southeast, where there is comparatively less good camping (except Appalachia, which is whiter than the rest of the South). Hiking/backpacking culture seems to be more of a thing further north and west, if for no other reason than that there is more wild land.
I suspect that explains some of the disparity.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suspect that explains some of the disparity.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
My camp this year was fifty-three people, six of whom were black (so about representative, proportionally, of the American population) and we've been black-helmed nine years out of the last ten. As someone who's been attending since 2002, it seems to me that black participation is on the rise at Burning Man, although that may just be my awareness increasing due to my camp's demographics.
Having said that, there's no denying that Burning Man has some problems when it comes to race. My girlfriend, who is black, has listed "having to smile through some privileged white dude talk some nonsense" as her number two reason for not attending the event (number one is what the playa does to black hair).
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:25 AM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Having said that, there's no denying that Burning Man has some problems when it comes to race. My girlfriend, who is black, has listed "having to smile through some privileged white dude talk some nonsense" as her number two reason for not attending the event (number one is what the playa does to black hair).
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:25 AM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Was Burning Man in Stuff White People Like? It strikes me as the epitome of it,
posted by jonmc at 11:26 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 11:26 AM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
To camp and engage in similar outdoor activities you need to know how to camp: how to set up a tent, how to cook over a portable stove/fire, how to send your food up a tree if there are bears. This is especially true if you are doing any kind of wilderness camping.
Where do most people learn this? Most people learn from close family & friends: parents, relatives, friends, etc who take them camping. I actually only learned how to wilderness camp because a friend's family took me with them when I was 13, to be the fourth in two canoes. They taught me how to travel light, as my family only ever did car-camping with coolers and other heavy gear.
Camping is very much part of a culture, like cooking and music. You can take courses, of course, but they tend to be expensive. So if you don't have money, don't have a car, and/or don't know anyone who camps, you're unlikely to ever do so.
As for cost: it's cheapish, but not that cheap. It recently cost $650 for two people to camp for a week in a Canadian national park, once kayak rentals and park fees were included. And that's not including the $500+ worth of equipment we already owned, or the car (which we borrowed). Sure, a vacation for 2 under $1000 is good, but not that cheap.
posted by jb at 11:28 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Where do most people learn this? Most people learn from close family & friends: parents, relatives, friends, etc who take them camping. I actually only learned how to wilderness camp because a friend's family took me with them when I was 13, to be the fourth in two canoes. They taught me how to travel light, as my family only ever did car-camping with coolers and other heavy gear.
Camping is very much part of a culture, like cooking and music. You can take courses, of course, but they tend to be expensive. So if you don't have money, don't have a car, and/or don't know anyone who camps, you're unlikely to ever do so.
As for cost: it's cheapish, but not that cheap. It recently cost $650 for two people to camp for a week in a Canadian national park, once kayak rentals and park fees were included. And that's not including the $500+ worth of equipment we already owned, or the car (which we borrowed). Sure, a vacation for 2 under $1000 is good, but not that cheap.
posted by jb at 11:28 AM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anecdotally, I will say that the percentage of the Burning Man population that I've seen that was black has been significantly higher than the percentage at, for example, MetaFilter meet-ups.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:31 AM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
Hiking/backpacking culture seems to be more of a thing further north and west, if for no other reason than that there is more wild land.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. The concept of "more of a thing" is nebulous at best. I dare say there are plenty of places on the East Coast that are just as much outdoorsy as anywhere on the West Coast. The Asheville/Boone area of NC is a place that immediately comes to mind.
The problem with the above theory lies in the fact that there are also more people out west. So while I'm sure there are more numbers of people visiting hiking/camping land out there, I'd wager that the percentages of populations of people who like to do that thing are somewhat similar.
posted by Blue_Villain at 11:32 AM on October 2, 2015
Sorry, but I have to disagree. The concept of "more of a thing" is nebulous at best. I dare say there are plenty of places on the East Coast that are just as much outdoorsy as anywhere on the West Coast. The Asheville/Boone area of NC is a place that immediately comes to mind.
The problem with the above theory lies in the fact that there are also more people out west. So while I'm sure there are more numbers of people visiting hiking/camping land out there, I'd wager that the percentages of populations of people who like to do that thing are somewhat similar.
posted by Blue_Villain at 11:32 AM on October 2, 2015
I think the article is pretty illuminating at explaining why this is.
Also I don't know that pontificating on a thing like Mefi tends to do is the best direction to be going here, because the article is comprised of the actual words of PoC explaining why they think other PoC are less likely to attend.
(unless you know, you are a person of color, and if so, go right ahead and speak up, I'm all ears)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:00 PM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also I don't know that pontificating on a thing like Mefi tends to do is the best direction to be going here, because the article is comprised of the actual words of PoC explaining why they think other PoC are less likely to attend.
(unless you know, you are a person of color, and if so, go right ahead and speak up, I'm all ears)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:00 PM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
there are also more people out west
what
posted by brennen at 12:09 PM on October 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
what
posted by brennen at 12:09 PM on October 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yeah, that's a bold statement. There are way more people in the eastern United States. Way more.
posted by Justinian at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I want to read about the demographics of Wasteland Weekend.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2015
Every spring when the tickets go on sale and my crew is lolling about drinking wine at least one burner among us sings marvelous songs about how Burning Man is all magikal mystikal sparkly transcendence, at least one neurotic New Yorker of whatever pigmentation starts grumbling about rich faux-hippies, at least one white person* says the whole thing looks too damn white, and at least one black person announces that black people don't camp and anyhow for those prices they'd want fresh towels, a fruit basket, and the chance to swim with dolphins. Usually another black person then agrees that most black people don't camp but they themselves do. This article is good because it proves all of us are correct. Steven Thrasher is a really interesting voice and I'm glad he's getting published so much.
*usually me
posted by jcrcarter at 12:51 PM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
*usually me
posted by jcrcarter at 12:51 PM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I always get the feeling there's a good share of folks (particularly those who've never been) looking for excuses to hate on Burning Man, and I've seen the "overwhelmingly white" argument propped up before. But think it's far more complicated than a simple, easy-to-hate-on-Burning-Man, answer. And I think it's reflected in the responses in the article.
In my view, Tyra Fennell hits on a theme that most resonates with me. Camping anywhere is a frivolous, often expensive, leisure activity for most people these days. Same with hunting, fishing, etc. Even moreso with BM. These are activities that, to put in terms MF likes, are fundamentally privileged. Radical self expression is a decadence most people cannot indulge in everyday life, and people with the means spend a great deal of effort traveling to BM to do that very thing.
There were very few Chicano burners I've come across at the several Burns I've attended, though I haven't been in about 10 years. I can say that the culture that populates Burning Man is one that I've been fairly comfortable with all my life. Because the Chicano culture I grew up in was often had little room for a geeky mutant like myself, it surprises me none that BM might not attract many Chicano/Latin American folks.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
In my view, Tyra Fennell hits on a theme that most resonates with me. Camping anywhere is a frivolous, often expensive, leisure activity for most people these days. Same with hunting, fishing, etc. Even moreso with BM. These are activities that, to put in terms MF likes, are fundamentally privileged. Radical self expression is a decadence most people cannot indulge in everyday life, and people with the means spend a great deal of effort traveling to BM to do that very thing.
There were very few Chicano burners I've come across at the several Burns I've attended, though I haven't been in about 10 years. I can say that the culture that populates Burning Man is one that I've been fairly comfortable with all my life. Because the Chicano culture I grew up in was often had little room for a geeky mutant like myself, it surprises me none that BM might not attract many Chicano/Latin American folks.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
To camp and engage in similar outdoor activities you need to know how to camp:
No, not just that. To camp, you need to want to camp or have another reason for going.
There's this weird disconnect when largely white, largely Protestant folks talk about camping to largely minority non-campers. It's like they view it as morally pure, or somehow special or good or Important. And they're like aliens talking, where they're trying to explain why it's a great idea to shit in a hole in the ground, and I'm like 'actually I kind of like flushing toilets'.
Someone on Metafilter some time ago posted something about how polio used to attack the major cities, and so middle class and wealthy parents would send their kids out to summer camps in the woods to get them out of the danger zone, so they started romanticizing the woods and summer camp and that type of activities, while poor and minority families did not. I don't know if that's the full reason, but it makes a lot of sense.
posted by corb at 1:07 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
No, not just that. To camp, you need to want to camp or have another reason for going.
There's this weird disconnect when largely white, largely Protestant folks talk about camping to largely minority non-campers. It's like they view it as morally pure, or somehow special or good or Important. And they're like aliens talking, where they're trying to explain why it's a great idea to shit in a hole in the ground, and I'm like 'actually I kind of like flushing toilets'.
Someone on Metafilter some time ago posted something about how polio used to attack the major cities, and so middle class and wealthy parents would send their kids out to summer camps in the woods to get them out of the danger zone, so they started romanticizing the woods and summer camp and that type of activities, while poor and minority families did not. I don't know if that's the full reason, but it makes a lot of sense.
posted by corb at 1:07 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
The only hate I have towards Burning Man is that I have never been and most probably (barring winning some obscene amount of money) will never be able to go.
posted by Samizdata at 1:12 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Samizdata at 1:12 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
My general sense that I should avoid burning man comes from listening to the people in my community tell me why it's so awesome.
What's a feature for them is an "aw fuck naw" for me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
What's a feature for them is an "aw fuck naw" for me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was one of the recent few articles that made me think that, maybe, I'd actually enjoy Burning Man. Most of the burners I encounter in the physical world are of the magical unicorn dolphin pixie fairy dust variety, and I just can't imagine being out in the desert with them for a week.
One thing I noticed in this article is that all the black burners he found were more analytical and introspective, and none were magic pixies. I'm not sure if there's a pattern here, or if this is just the type of person the author knows.
posted by kanewai at 1:25 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
One thing I noticed in this article is that all the black burners he found were more analytical and introspective, and none were magic pixies. I'm not sure if there's a pattern here, or if this is just the type of person the author knows.
posted by kanewai at 1:25 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I meant to add: these sound like people I could totally relate to, and their presence makes BM sound much more attractive to me.
posted by kanewai at 1:27 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kanewai at 1:27 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyone might do or believe anything at any time.
Nobody needs to explain why to anyone else.
Someone on Metafilter some time ago posted something about how polio used to attack the major cities, and so middle class and wealthy parents would send their kids out to summer camps in the woods to get them out of the danger zone, so they started romanticizing the woods and summer camp and that type of activities, while poor and minority families did not. I don't know if that's the full reason, but it makes a lot of sense.
To paraphrase Wayne Gretzky: "No."
The American version of romanticizing [the [health, morality, grandeur, stewardship, exploitation] of] The Great Outdoors dates at least to the early 19th century, if not to Thomas Jefferson's notions of Citizen-Agrarian Freeholder, General Washington as "Cincinnatus" and probably a direct line further back to some enlightenment thinker that I've forgotten.
Polio ain't in it.
posted by Herodios at 1:27 PM on October 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
As a POC who has been camping and knows folks who have attended Burning Man, the reason I haven't attended (and camped - it's been a while), is that I grew up poor. Camping, for all of its good, reminds me of exactly what I DON'T want to do on a vacation: physically build shelter, somehow start a campfire, maybe wash and 'do your business' in the woods. It sounds like the weekly hustle we had to go through just to survive.
Would I go to the Playa? Nope, just not my scene, but it sounds FASCINATING. But my two friends who went - who I adore and respect greatly - had a wonderful time.
posted by singmespanishtechno at 1:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Would I go to the Playa? Nope, just not my scene, but it sounds FASCINATING. But my two friends who went - who I adore and respect greatly - had a wonderful time.
posted by singmespanishtechno at 1:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
How many Latinos and/or Asians go to Burning Man? Why? Why Not?
posted by Postroad at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2015
posted by Postroad at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2015
or are there other matters in play?
Yes, what else is there at work besides the money and leisure time available to rich, white hipsters?
There MUST be another reason. Let's get to the bottom of this!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, what else is there at work besides the money and leisure time available to rich, white hipsters?
There MUST be another reason. Let's get to the bottom of this!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like to camp. One of the first things I like to avoid is camping in hot weather in the desert.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
Story time, somewhat related:
In the late 80s I worked with adjudicated youth in Detroit, and we (staff) constantly battled with the kids (majority black) over their assertions that "black people don't do (x)." It was complicated by the fact that a good number of the staff (also majority black) would totally feed into this. I was firmly on the side that viewed this as a crippling attitude.
My buddy and I had the brilliant notion that one of the core problems was that our kids had lost their spiritual connection to nature, and so we would take the guys camping and canoeing as much as we could during the summer. Amazingly, the kids trusted us enough to head out without too much rebellion. And while there were plenty of emotional freak-outs the further we got from the city, and their complaints that "black people don't do this!" got louder the further we ventured into "white" Michigan, overall it turned into a positive experience.
Flash forward to today; we've reconnected on social media, and the 'back in the day' stories people reminisce about are from those days we spent camping in the woods.
posted by kanewai at 2:15 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the late 80s I worked with adjudicated youth in Detroit, and we (staff) constantly battled with the kids (majority black) over their assertions that "black people don't do (x)." It was complicated by the fact that a good number of the staff (also majority black) would totally feed into this. I was firmly on the side that viewed this as a crippling attitude.
My buddy and I had the brilliant notion that one of the core problems was that our kids had lost their spiritual connection to nature, and so we would take the guys camping and canoeing as much as we could during the summer. Amazingly, the kids trusted us enough to head out without too much rebellion. And while there were plenty of emotional freak-outs the further we got from the city, and their complaints that "black people don't do this!" got louder the further we ventured into "white" Michigan, overall it turned into a positive experience.
Flash forward to today; we've reconnected on social media, and the 'back in the day' stories people reminisce about are from those days we spent camping in the woods.
posted by kanewai at 2:15 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Soon enough Burning Man will become an exclusive secret society with unexplained rituals indistinguishable from Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones, or any other upper-class event.
posted by quartzcity at 2:18 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by quartzcity at 2:18 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've been to east coast regionals and there's much the same racial makeup, so it's not specific to the desert, the west coast, increasingly high costs, or the main event.
Part of it is that the subcultures that feed people into the scene and make up a lot of what there is to do on the site are largely Caucasian and money/privilege-centric - the rave scene, Silicon Valley, designer and hallucinatory drugs, computer science/engineering/art focused colleges, yoga and circus arts, jam bands, etc.
posted by Candleman at 2:32 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Part of it is that the subcultures that feed people into the scene and make up a lot of what there is to do on the site are largely Caucasian and money/privilege-centric - the rave scene, Silicon Valley, designer and hallucinatory drugs, computer science/engineering/art focused colleges, yoga and circus arts, jam bands, etc.
posted by Candleman at 2:32 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have a colleague who did a study on why Hispanic students don't go into earth sciences in college (generally a major thought of to have lots of camping, field trips, and outdoors research), and two strong factors for Hispanic students were they didn't camp or go to national parks as children, and their families were unaware of geosciences careers and thus weren't able to be supportive of their pursuits.
I don't think the study got into why Hispanic families weren't "outdoorsy" but it's not a cultural focus for them. Er, I hope I said all this okay.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:57 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think the study got into why Hispanic families weren't "outdoorsy" but it's not a cultural focus for them. Er, I hope I said all this okay.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:57 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally, I never thought of "going to Burning Man" as camping... it's LARPing.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:52 PM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:52 PM on October 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
How many Latinos and/or Asians go to Burning Man? Why? Why Not?
The Burning Man Census numbers aren't out yet for this year, but in 2014, the breakdown by race was:
87% white
5.7% asian
2.1% native
1.3% black
6.3% hispanic
4.9% other
That adds up to more than 100% because people could choose multiple answers.
As for why, I can't say, and I strongly suspect there's a bunch of factors. For instance, while surely economics are a big part, my napkin math says that people of color are underrepresented even if you correct for income disparity.
posted by aubilenon at 4:32 PM on October 2, 2015
The Burning Man Census numbers aren't out yet for this year, but in 2014, the breakdown by race was:
87% white
5.7% asian
2.1% native
1.3% black
6.3% hispanic
4.9% other
That adds up to more than 100% because people could choose multiple answers.
As for why, I can't say, and I strongly suspect there's a bunch of factors. For instance, while surely economics are a big part, my napkin math says that people of color are underrepresented even if you correct for income disparity.
posted by aubilenon at 4:32 PM on October 2, 2015
It's weird when any why don't Black people do [x] doesn't start with the obvious and simple explanation that we live in a country that had legal and quasi-legal segregation up until 40 years ago and institutional and systemic segregation that persists until this day.
Black and White people tend to do different shit because that's how our society was designed to work.
Also, I hate the notion that Black people don't do stuff because it's expensive. Black people are more likely to be poorer than whites statistically, but that doesn't mean all Black people are poor. There are plenty of things Black people spend Burning Man levels of money on recreationally. NBA All Star Weekend, or Carnivale in Trinidad, or your average Black family reunion, Of which the last one I attended cost more than my last trip to Europe.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:50 PM on October 2, 2015 [29 favorites]
Black and White people tend to do different shit because that's how our society was designed to work.
Also, I hate the notion that Black people don't do stuff because it's expensive. Black people are more likely to be poorer than whites statistically, but that doesn't mean all Black people are poor. There are plenty of things Black people spend Burning Man levels of money on recreationally. NBA All Star Weekend, or Carnivale in Trinidad, or your average Black family reunion, Of which the last one I attended cost more than my last trip to Europe.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:50 PM on October 2, 2015 [29 favorites]
Anecdotally, I will say that the percentage of the Burning Man population that I've seen that was black has been significantly higher than the percentage at, for example, MetaFilter meet-ups.
I don't think there is a good way to even get accurate statistics (much less someone with the resources and interest to do so), but I wonder how the demographics of Metafilter meetups compare to the overall demographics of the site. (I've never been to one, so I can't even speculate anecdotally.)
posted by Dip Flash at 4:50 PM on October 2, 2015
I don't think there is a good way to even get accurate statistics (much less someone with the resources and interest to do so), but I wonder how the demographics of Metafilter meetups compare to the overall demographics of the site. (I've never been to one, so I can't even speculate anecdotally.)
posted by Dip Flash at 4:50 PM on October 2, 2015
(number one is what the playa does to black hair).
Someone in the article also mentioned this - what does it mean?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:16 PM on October 2, 2015
Someone in the article also mentioned this - what does it mean?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:16 PM on October 2, 2015
I was pleasantly surprised to see Mefi's own No more Mr. Smartypants' quoted and pictured in the article.
posted by biggreenplant at 5:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by biggreenplant at 5:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The ethnicity of visitors to National Parks also skews heavily white.
When Segregation Reached Into The National Parks
(what billyfleetwood said)
posted by kelseyq at 5:55 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
When Segregation Reached Into The National Parks
(what billyfleetwood said)
posted by kelseyq at 5:55 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Awesome nugget in this article:
"Many of us in Que Viva! camp – which includes United Farm Workers co-founder Dolores Huerta, who is in her 80s – love Burning Man."
!!!
posted by latkes at 10:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Many of us in Que Viva! camp – which includes United Farm Workers co-founder Dolores Huerta, who is in her 80s – love Burning Man."
!!!
posted by latkes at 10:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Burning Man is a hypertrophied example of the sort of countercultural self-expression based activities that can read very differently when black people are the primary participants. If a largely black group of burners sent into the desert to do burner , set an effigy on fire, and then, as reported in the article, set a US flag on fire, media would probably not treat it in the same way. So it's unlikely that this sort of event would ever have grown out of the black community, and not surprising that black participants are slowly and cautiously entering in very small numbers to test the waters.
Also, black people are probably not dying to participate in every possible white-dominated activity. The idea of being 'the black dude, but this time in the desert' may simply not appeal.
posted by Svejk at 4:10 AM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, black people are probably not dying to participate in every possible white-dominated activity. The idea of being 'the black dude, but this time in the desert' may simply not appeal.
posted by Svejk at 4:10 AM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
No, not just that. To camp, you need to want to camp or have another reason for going.
Of course, not everyone will like camping. But you won't learn whether you like camping if you never did it with your family, or other people.
I have to say, it's not poverty. I grew up on welfare, and I love camping. Not Burning Man style temporary home in a huge city, but the kind where everything you need is on your back/in your kayak and you wake up early feeling rested and fall asleep shortly after sunset, and spend the rest of the time outside. For me, it's a break from a life spent almost entirely indoors, as I grew up in an apartment in a city. I don't garden, have never had a porch or a backyard, and so I don't spend any excess time outside. Camping forces me to be outside and gives me a good reason practical to be there (as opposed to going and sitting in a park).
But it's a family culture/ethnic thing too: I grew up in Toronto, but my family are from the Maritimes. Not only did some of our family down there live almost off the grid, but the only way we could afford to go there was to drive and camp the whole way. My grandmother had a cottage down there, but we cooked on a wood stove and there was no running water. (Let me tell you: squatting in the woods is much less unpleasant than a 100+ year old outhouse with no windows and a major fly infestation.)
I did inherit my love of low tech, self-sufficient camping from my family, especially my grandmother who was somewhat obsessed with retreating back into some ideal of pioneer life that never existed (she also canned, spun & wove). But they also camped because that's what poorer white people with rural relatives did to get down to see their relatives and spend time with them.
posted by jb at 5:26 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Of course, not everyone will like camping. But you won't learn whether you like camping if you never did it with your family, or other people.
I have to say, it's not poverty. I grew up on welfare, and I love camping. Not Burning Man style temporary home in a huge city, but the kind where everything you need is on your back/in your kayak and you wake up early feeling rested and fall asleep shortly after sunset, and spend the rest of the time outside. For me, it's a break from a life spent almost entirely indoors, as I grew up in an apartment in a city. I don't garden, have never had a porch or a backyard, and so I don't spend any excess time outside. Camping forces me to be outside and gives me a good reason practical to be there (as opposed to going and sitting in a park).
But it's a family culture/ethnic thing too: I grew up in Toronto, but my family are from the Maritimes. Not only did some of our family down there live almost off the grid, but the only way we could afford to go there was to drive and camp the whole way. My grandmother had a cottage down there, but we cooked on a wood stove and there was no running water. (Let me tell you: squatting in the woods is much less unpleasant than a 100+ year old outhouse with no windows and a major fly infestation.)
I did inherit my love of low tech, self-sufficient camping from my family, especially my grandmother who was somewhat obsessed with retreating back into some ideal of pioneer life that never existed (she also canned, spun & wove). But they also camped because that's what poorer white people with rural relatives did to get down to see their relatives and spend time with them.
posted by jb at 5:26 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Camping is very much part of a culture, like cooking and music. You can take courses, of course, but they tend to be expensive.
Wut? Courses to learn how to camp? Oh, this world.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wut? Courses to learn how to camp? Oh, this world.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Someone in the article also mentioned this - what does it mean?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:16 PM on October 2 [+] [!]
I want to preface this by saying that I am neither a chemist nor black, so there are going to be some gross oversimplifications in what I'm about to say, and I defer to anyone whose expertise exceeds my very limited knowledge. I can speak only for what I've witnessed first-hand, but I fully recognize that there are limits to my understanding of the matter.
The playa is dusty. The dust gets everywhere, and wind the wind picks it up, it regularly creates conditions where you can extend your arm out as far as it'll go and be unable to see your hand. Additionally, the playa is an alkali lake bed. Because the dust is alkaline, being at Burning Man basically means being covered in a very mild irritant at all times. I've personally experienced "playa rot", a condition where careless extended exposure to the playa dust caused the skin of my feet to dry out, crack wide open and create a particularly unpleasant bloody mess. There are ways to prevent this from happening (mostly by using vinegar or lemon juice mixed with water to provide an acid to counteract the alkali).
I'm a white dude with short, straight hair, and even for me, alkali dust coats it to the point where it becomes a tangled, clumpy, slightly muddy mess within a couple of days. My (black) girlfriend has long, thick, curly hair. Even in a well-controlled, largely indoor, urban environment, the amount of work that she has to put into her hair exceeds anything that I deal with at the Burning Man. So even setting aside the enormous societal pressures that both people of color and women are under to keep their hair looking good, there are really strong practical reasons why someone with hair like hers might look at the playa and decide "fucking nope".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:16 PM on October 2 [+] [!]
I want to preface this by saying that I am neither a chemist nor black, so there are going to be some gross oversimplifications in what I'm about to say, and I defer to anyone whose expertise exceeds my very limited knowledge. I can speak only for what I've witnessed first-hand, but I fully recognize that there are limits to my understanding of the matter.
The playa is dusty. The dust gets everywhere, and wind the wind picks it up, it regularly creates conditions where you can extend your arm out as far as it'll go and be unable to see your hand. Additionally, the playa is an alkali lake bed. Because the dust is alkaline, being at Burning Man basically means being covered in a very mild irritant at all times. I've personally experienced "playa rot", a condition where careless extended exposure to the playa dust caused the skin of my feet to dry out, crack wide open and create a particularly unpleasant bloody mess. There are ways to prevent this from happening (mostly by using vinegar or lemon juice mixed with water to provide an acid to counteract the alkali).
I'm a white dude with short, straight hair, and even for me, alkali dust coats it to the point where it becomes a tangled, clumpy, slightly muddy mess within a couple of days. My (black) girlfriend has long, thick, curly hair. Even in a well-controlled, largely indoor, urban environment, the amount of work that she has to put into her hair exceeds anything that I deal with at the Burning Man. So even setting aside the enormous societal pressures that both people of color and women are under to keep their hair looking good, there are really strong practical reasons why someone with hair like hers might look at the playa and decide "fucking nope".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
FWIW, this year our camp of about 15 people had five "black-/black-mixed-American" people, one "Asian-American" person, and one "North African-/Middle Eastern-American" person. It's pretty much un-remarkable to everyone ...
... and Larry may seem like a hapless dope sometimes, but from what I've seen on the Interwebs I don't get the impression that he's a mean person.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:40 PM on October 3, 2015
... and Larry may seem like a hapless dope sometimes, but from what I've seen on the Interwebs I don't get the impression that he's a mean person.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:40 PM on October 3, 2015
Missed it in this thread or the linked article, but for some further context, Larry Harvey's ex-wife and children are Jamaican-American.
What does that mean?
Well, that at least it wasn't something said out of ignorance/unfamiliarity - it is something said from familiarity with in-group stereotypes.
Are in-group stereotypes still harmful? Sure, because they're limiting, but at least they aren't out-group stereotypes (more commonly known as straight out racism).
It's the awkward boundary between what you want for yourself, others, and society, and actually listening to what people say they want. Social change is slow.
You make an encouraging environment, but it's as oppressive to force women 'out of the kitchen', as it is to keep them in it. Real equality is freedom, not sameness.
You get it from the generational effect of repeating - You have options.
You can do this, that, or the other thing.
It'll be here when or if you want it, and we are going to make sure there aren't any obstacles in your way.
Anyway, best possible article to link to.
posted by Elysum at 10:46 AM on October 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
What does that mean?
Well, that at least it wasn't something said out of ignorance/unfamiliarity - it is something said from familiarity with in-group stereotypes.
Are in-group stereotypes still harmful? Sure, because they're limiting, but at least they aren't out-group stereotypes (more commonly known as straight out racism).
It's the awkward boundary between what you want for yourself, others, and society, and actually listening to what people say they want. Social change is slow.
You make an encouraging environment, but it's as oppressive to force women 'out of the kitchen', as it is to keep them in it. Real equality is freedom, not sameness.
You get it from the generational effect of repeating - You have options.
You can do this, that, or the other thing.
It'll be here when or if you want it, and we are going to make sure there aren't any obstacles in your way.
Anyway, best possible article to link to.
posted by Elysum at 10:46 AM on October 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
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LOL Black people like to camp
Some of them just don't want to camp with y'all
posted by Ashen at 9:58 AM on October 2, 2015 [77 favorites]