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from 52 to 48, with love
November 6, 2008 12:34 PM   Subscribe

from 52 to 48 with love : Ze Frank collects post-election messages of unity and reconciliation.

From his blog:

"i would love to see a group project where obama supporters reached out to the mccain folk in a gesture of reconciliation...

something with the intimacy of the http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ project - but without the partisan divisiveness. simple messages. the feeling of being left out or ignored, or the target of payback is what made the last eight years so hard.

perhaps it is naive. the differences are real, i know. but we have to repair the damage done from this election cycle somehow...

it's a tough and delicate challenge - if you want to try it - send a pic of you with a sign, or a vid, or anything to ze@zefrank.com"
posted by heatherann (76 comments total) 9 users marked this as a favorite

 
Someone should really make a few "Metafilter home page should McCain have won" projects. Pages filled with links about the morons, the idiots, and the countries to which one might flee.
posted by xmutex at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


For 48 with love and squalor.
posted by chunking express at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2008


To show there are no hard feelings you should all make the greatest gesture of reconciliation possible and go and watch that recent Kelsey Grammar film where they make lots of jokes about Michael Moore being fat
posted by dng at 12:46 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Man, I'm happy to see that soryeverybody.com has a happy tone now.

From 52 to 48 with love is pretty cute. I love the feeling of warm and fuzzies, I hope it sticks around for a bit.
posted by piratebowling at 12:49 PM on November 6, 2008


No, no, no -- what made the last eight years so hard was a meaningless lie of a war that cost the lives of thousands of troops and tens of thousands of civilians, plus the evisceration of our constitution, plus our government's explicit orders to torture prisoners and spy on Americans without warrants, plus economic collapse, plus the relentless attempts by his proxies to neuter the free press. (Not a complete list.)

I'm all for reaching across the isle, but Bush wasn't just hurt feelings. He was the worst president we've ever had, a war criminal and a proud idiot whose damage to our country won't fully be revealed until after he has left office.

That being said, being polite sure doesn't hurt, I guess.
posted by Damn That Television at 12:51 PM on November 6, 2008 [18 favorites]


Someone should really make a few "Metafilter home page should McCain have won" projects. Pages filled with links about the morons, the idiots, and the countries to which one might flee.

I really wish I could disagree with that statement, but, yeah, it is a lot easier to be willing to come together as a people when your guy won. Not too many liberals (myself included) were rushing to embrace dubya in the spirit of unity back in 2004.

Of course, if McCain had one I don't think we'd see a Flickr pool of FRreepers holding out an olive branch.

On one point, however, I cannot be more clear: someone better tell that guy to stop writing on my bananas, or I'll get him shipped off to moontanamo.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 12:54 PM on November 6, 2008


It's good to see that those in support of Kang and those in support of Kodos are now holding hands in the interest of exchanging long protein strands.
posted by quadog at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Er, "had won."
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2008


Oh, is that supposed to be the Obama/McCain ratio? BBC calls it more of a 53/46, if you're into rounding up. Or 52.5/46.2 if you're not. Of course, you could also state this as 364/162. But that sounds like gloating, which I am not doing. I'm just celebrating in a rather self-centered sort of way.

Where are the signs of the remaining 1.1? I'd like to thing they'd say Screw you both.

A note when making signs: watch what you color, because I see that last sentence as "It's time to do it, to get her"
posted by filthy light thief at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2008


Someone should really make a few "Metafilter home page should McCain have won" projects.

Yeah! It'd probebly look like MetaFilter four years ago, times ten (or higher).
posted by soundofsuburbia at 12:57 PM on November 6, 2008


probebly?
posted by soundofsuburbia at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2008


When you've been in an abusive marriage for the past eight years, finally get the divorce papers finalized, and move into your new flat, you usually give it some time before you call the ex and ask if you want to hit that salad bar at Sizzler.

I appreciate the sentiment here, but the ball's in their court - they're the ones who should be reaching out, calling for reconciliation and reparations, after all that smacking around.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:05 PM on November 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


Dear 46,

You lost. Get over it and move on.
posted by aaronetc at 1:10 PM on November 6, 2008


Dear Republicans:

Please be more gracious than we were when we lost.

Democrats
posted by Class Goat at 1:14 PM on November 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


"He was the worst president we've ever had, a war criminal and a proud idiot whose damage to our country won't fully be revealed until after he has left office."

I do wonder about this. Wasn't Truman disliked when he left office? And now how do we feel about his presidency?
posted by MarshallPoe at 1:17 PM on November 6, 2008


Man, if I had voted for McCain and I saw this, I'd want to punch someone. I'd be all "Leave me alone. Bringing up that I voted for the loser doesn't make me want to come together with you and build bridges to somewhere while swaying back and forth, holding up lighters."
posted by 23skidoo at 1:19 PM on November 6, 2008


I appreciate the sentiment here, but the ball's in their court - they're the ones who should be reaching out, calling for reconciliation and reparations, after all that smacking around.

I get that, especially because the hate-on that we all felt in '04 and '00 only added insult to injury, but to quote a saying that I hope never becomes trite, "We should be the change we hope to see in the world."
posted by contessa at 1:20 PM on November 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


This is great. I hope this is the beginning of repairing a lot of the animosity and partisanship of recent years. I really think Obama has the capacity to continue to bring the country together like this.
posted by jpdoane at 1:28 PM on November 6, 2008


I can't really think of this as anything other then gloating.
That said, I have no problem with gloating.
posted by yeoz at 1:30 PM on November 6, 2008


I get that, especially because the hate-on that we all felt in '04 and '00 only added insult to injury, but to quote a saying that I hope never becomes trite, "We should be the change we hope to see in the world."

I can certainly appreciate that, too. But man, can we give it some time here? McCain made a concession speech about reconciliation and togetherness probably in part because he could (and should) be facing legal action for some of the libelous crap they threw at Obama during the campaign. I'm a little distrustful of the people who accused Obama of being "friends with terrorists who cost American lives" suddenly saying, "Oh, hey, since you won and all, let's be buddies".

Yes, we will need to work together to build this nation back up, but let's not completely let the culprits off the hook here.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:30 PM on November 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Look, I'm stepping into the future. Y'all are welcome to come along.

As far as "feelings" go; I "feel" no need to call out the Whaaaaaambulance.
posted by butterstick at 1:33 PM on November 6, 2008


Had an...awkward lunch with my McCain-voting boss, and my Obama-voting boss. Obama-boss and I were in the best mood, and McCain-boss wanted to talk about how Joe Biden was more awful than Palin because he "said stupid things," and I'm sorry, I just laughed and laughed and laughed.

I'm sorry. I'm still too gleeful to be sympathetic. I'd rather let McCain-boss come to his own understanding that Obama ain't the Antichrist than pretend I'm not thrilled his guy lost. I just can't lie that big.
posted by emjaybee at 1:36 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


This made me tear up yet again. How many more boxes of Kleenex must I go through, people?
posted by desjardins at 1:39 PM on November 6, 2008


I like the cookie one that says "58+42." I want to hug them and say "Aw, those are good numbers, too."
posted by shmegegge at 1:40 PM on November 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


I dunno, it strikes me as patronizing. At any given point, roughly half the population of the US is complaining about the president. No one needs to apologize for it.
posted by GuyZero at 1:40 PM on November 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Also, I think there is some value in the soul searching inspired by a soul crushing defeat. A schism in the GOP would be great for everyone, and hopefully the sincere republicans can wrest control of their party back and return to adults table with a constructive philosophy on how to govern the country in such a way that things get better instead of worse.

M-A-R-S, MARS BITCHES. It's gonna be rad. Come along!
posted by butterstick at 1:42 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


I do wonder about this. Wasn't Truman disliked when he left office? And now how do we feel about his presidency?

Dude, I'm from Missouri and I'm pretty ambivalent about Truman.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:49 PM on November 6, 2008


I do wonder about this. Wasn't Truman disliked when he left office? And now how do we feel about his presidency?

I think being compared to Truman is the best Bush can hope for, and it's a comparison people have speculated on many times.

Truman's Trials Resonate for Bush

Bush vs. Truman

Bush = Truman?

National Review: George W. Bush & Harry S Truman
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:57 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


There's a line where magnanimous blurs into smugness and this is it. Say these things IRL, as a politician or friend, that's brave and honest. Random bland sentiments of unity paired with myspace photos is useless and condescending. If I had voted for Mcain this would inspire me only to further disgust.

I.E. stop killing my history-boner dorks!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:58 PM on November 6, 2008


MetaFilter: too gleeful to be sympathetic.

Dear generalists,

'00 and '04 could have been considered "stolen" - 2000 had the Florida debacle and Robo-Gore winning the popular vote by 543,895 votes, and 2004 was even messier. This year was considered a landslide, even by Fox News.

I'm still a bit bitter, but I'm not taking it out on "Republicans" or blaming Red States - I'm pissed at the anti-democratic maneuvering by a select few, and a filthy hype machine. I'm not begging everyone to play fair, I'm just saying don't be a shithead about it. If the other person is generally perceived as being a better candidate, fight a public fight, and be considerate when you lose.

But if you try to mess up the voting process or slander a candidate, then I have no respect for you. You being certain people, not Middle America, Christian Conservatives, or any broad category of people.

The end.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:59 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


At any given point, roughly half the population of the US is complaining about the president.

That's certainly true. But we're not listening to mere complaining right now. We're listening to people express their joy at the prospect of Obama presiding over the collapse of the country. We're listening to people loudly proclaim that Obama is an idiot, and anyone who voted for him wants to destroy America. That's not really the same thing.
posted by 1adam12 at 1:59 PM on November 6, 2008


Dear 48. Sarah Palin? Really? You want that I should forgive that you wanted to foist Sarah, "I don't know the difference between a country and a continent" Palin on me for 4 years, and maybe even become president?

You've got to be fucking kidding, right?

Oh wait, what were the instructions again?

Dear 48, um, gee, you represent all that I despise in America, but, um, let's be BFF! Yay! I can invite some of my gay friends over, and the reconciliation can really begin!
posted by Chuffy at 2:01 PM on November 6, 2008


I think Bush will (in a perfect world) be remembered the way we remember Nixon. It'd be awesome to see his ass and all his cronies asses in jail, but it probably won't happen.

And yeah, this site is kind of silly because it is patronizing, and the people that were voting for McCain/Palin need to be mocked. Mocked like the dumbaclots they are.
posted by chunking express at 2:05 PM on November 6, 2008


Yes, mocking people. That works every time. Especially when you combine it with name-calling.
posted by MarshallPoe at 2:13 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Sarah, "I don't know the difference between a country and a continent" Palin

That was a slander. Unlike Obama's "57 states" gaffe, which he really said.

Give it a rest, OK?
posted by Class Goat at 2:14 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


There is middle ground between bitter recriminations and saccharine phony gestures, but it is not located on the internet. I think it's actually in Cleveland.

Here's how to reach across the aisle.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:14 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


At any given point, roughly half the population of the US is complaining about the president.

That's certainly true.


I'm pretty sure for the last couple of years that number has been more like 70%.

Don't agree with people who are clearly wrong. That isn't bipartisanship. That's participating in delusions of equivalence.
posted by srboisvert at 2:16 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Oh, I am skeptical about the possibility for unity and reconciliation.
Just look at the new lows the wingers stoop to: Red State offers this clip on Surviving the Democrats. I am disgusted.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:49 PM on November 6, 2008


Sarah, "I don't know the difference between a country and a continent" Palin

That was a slander. Unlike Obama's "57 states" gaffe, which he really said.

Give it a rest, OK?


Nope. No rest for the wicked or stupid. Sorry.

Slander, to me, is calling the President-elect of the United States a terrorist and a socialist.

When a tired person makes a verbal goof, it is entirely acceptable. When an unvetted VP candidate is so incompetent that she can't name one thing she reads, in an interview - and then says it was a "gotcha" question...that's priceless.

Give it a rest?...please. I'm just starting.
posted by Chuffy at 2:49 PM on November 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


srboisvert, you're being too kind - Bush had approval ratings around 27 percent, according to CNN's poll released October 21. The linked story is about Bush's legacy.
"He's [Bush] has been a quite unlucky president. Certain things happened on his watch that most people don't have to deal with -- a 9/11, a [Hurricane] Katrina, the financial crisis, being three obvious examples," she said.

"And yet they happened on his watch. He is being blamed," she said.
I'll be the bastard, and point out that his reactions to the "unlucky events" is what make him so much more than simply unlucky. The TWO "military campaigns" that are still dragging on in the wake of 9/11 and the amount of "if you're not with us, you're against us" blathering turned the world against the US. His administration's reaction, and his own delay in arriving to Katrina-ravaged lands, made him look really bad within the US (if we had gotten used to the fact there were two military campaigns churning in the background). The financial crisis is ... really messy. I don't know enough to say more, so I'll leave it at that.

How long was it until "Bushisms" became published in little books and on calendars? Dan Quayle was a funny guy, but he was just VP. (And reading his wiki-page, I noted he actually ran against Bush Jr for the 2000 Republican nomination! Heh.) It'd be interesting to see a chart of public opinion polls of presidents throughout the years, especially if you could add in national and international events, because I think I'd end up feeling less sorry for Bush Jr at the end of it all.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:54 PM on November 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


I don't want to hate on people who voted for Bush/Cheney, because life is too short. But except for the ones I'm personally related to, I don't want to give them a hug, either.

And Bush will be remembered as worse than Nixon. Nixon was smart, and occasionally did something good as President. We really only know the tip of the iceberg of corruption that Bush represents. The more that comes out in the years to come, the lower his reputation will sink. People will deny they voted for him out of embarrassment. He will define the lowest limits of incompetence and corruption in the Presidency, hopefully forever, because anything worse would be hard to imagine. Anything worse might break our country for good. He nearly did.

He and many others in his administration would be serving time for war crimes and blatant violations of the Constitution in a just world, for the rest of their miserable useless lives. His only useful role is as a cautionary tale for the future.
posted by emjaybee at 3:14 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Please be more gracious than we were when we lost.

Methinks they're doing it wrong.

On a couple of levels.
posted by pompomtom at 3:55 PM on November 6, 2008


At any given point, roughly half the population of the US is complaining about the president. No one needs to apologize for it.

Not only that, but soon enough (maybe next year or 2010) some of those in the 52 are going to be complaining about Obama. He can't possibly satisfy all the different expectations I've heard of him, so it's only a matter of time. [Of course, I suspect I will complain much less than I would have about McCain!]
posted by wildcrdj at 4:18 PM on November 6, 2008


You know, I'm not in favor of reaching out with hugs to people who didn't vote for Obama, any more than I am for pointing in their collective faces and taunting. The latter shows that you're a bad sport, while the former shows that you're a good sport.

The problem is, it's not a sport. It's not a contest. Nobody 'wins'. Nobody 'loses'.

I voted for Obama to do a job, not to beat McCain. Moreover, he hasn't done that job yet, so the only thing accomplished at this point is potential, which means exactly...a little better than nothing.

I think that's what bothers me about this. Even while it's conciliatory in tone, it's nevertheless an impicit acknowledgment of that whole 'my team/your team' approach that's poisoned--but more importantly, distracted--our political efforts for too long. I don't feel the need to even acknowledge the other side of the aisle in one way or another, until it's time to engage them in constructive efforts on some political or social effort down the road. And when that day comes, and I get straight to business without all this hemming and hawing about winners and losers, they'll know what's important to me, without me ever having to say it.

Actions speak louder than words (and pictures).
posted by Brak at 4:38 PM on November 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


Sorry, no. The people who are ready to be reconciled with don't need to be "reached out" to; they've always been at the table. But I'm damned if I am ready to "reach out" to the people who have vilified me and my family over our religious beliefs, looked sideways at my mixed race children, conflated homosexuality with pedophilia, denied basic human rights at home and abroad while questioning the patriotism of those who opposed them, and stacked the courts with politicized judges so that it will take a generation or more to undo the damage.

No, I won't.
posted by nax at 5:24 PM on November 6, 2008 [7 favorites]


Dear 52,

I'm one of the 48. I voted against Obama not because I am especially fond of McCain or Palin, but because I disagree with McCain a little bit less than I do with Obama. I don't like a lot of Obama's suggested policies. So I voted against him. Nevertheless, I'm glad you have a president you support. I'm willing to give him a chance to prove himself. As far as I'm concerned, he's blameless until he screws something up.

That being said, the election is over. Please stop trying to get jabs in at McCain/Palin. You don't like them. We get it. That whole healing and unity thing? How about you try living it out. In exchange, I promise I won't have the same deranged hatred of Obama that you have for Bush/Cheney (though they certainly do deserve a good bit of criticism).

Please ignore the "impeach Obama" and "Obama is a terrorist" fringe kooks on our side. I don't like them any more than you do. And please remember, they're being no crazier than many of you were four years ago. There are nutjobs at Free Republic and Red State the same way there are crazy people at Kos and Huffington Post. Let's stop pretending they represent their entire party.

Another thing: This is America. People should be able to disagree with you without being called names. Not all McCain supporters are vile, and I have yet to actually meet a conservative who hates gays (though I'm sure they exist, just like liberals who hate Christians and Christians who hate environmentalists exist.) There are religious and ethical reasons to support things like Prop 8 that don't involve hatred. We would explain it to you, but we really don't think you're interested in listening. I have several gay friends. Do I want them to marry? Not particularly. Do I love them? Yes. Do I respect them? Yes. Do I consider them second-class citizens? No. Should they be able to visit their loved ones in the hospital? Of course. And my friends realize this. So stop trying to put words in my mouth.
posted by Autarky at 5:54 PM on November 6, 2008 [5 favorites]


I'm all for hope and togetherness and singing Kumbaya across the aisles for a better America, but today I've decided that I will say this:

America: Love or Leave It.
My President (elect), My Country, Right or Wrong.
Don't Like Socialist Ideas? Then try driving on a dirt road... all the fucking way out of here.

OK, I feel better. I'm sure there will be more at some point and I'll try to direct it to a wall or something. Autarky, sorry. I love you, I really do (I'm sure, you're a human right? Or at least a cat that types?). That's just 6 years spent in Kansas under this administration coming out. Imagine what it would have been like if I had been passionate about Obama.
posted by sleepy pete at 6:13 PM on November 6, 2008


We would explain it to you, but we really don't think you're interested in listening. I have several gay friends. Do I want them to marry? Not particularly. Do I love them? Yes. Do I respect them? Yes. Do I consider them second-class citizens? No. Should they be able to visit their loved ones in the hospital? Of course.

I have a (hypothetical) wife and a mother. Do I want them to vote? No. Do I consider them second-class citizens? No. Should they be able to voice their political opinions to a newspaper? Of course (though I vote for every single initiative that specifically prevents them from doing just that).

You may not hate your gay friends, but you are a bigot. Just like the Jim Crow supporter who loves his black housekeeper -- but doesn't think she should be allowed to sit at the front of the bus or drink from the white fountains -- you do, in fact, view your friends as second-class citizens. I don't know if you're lying to yourself, but you're damn sure not going to lie to me about that simple, obvious fact.

I only hope I live to see the day when your brand of bigotry is overcome in this nation.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:09 PM on November 6, 2008 [14 favorites]


dirigibleman,

Frankly, what I would like is an America with a small government that didn't bother itself with stuff like who is married and who isn't.

Heterosexuals and homosexuals should be granted civil unions: a purely legal binding agreement that covers stuff like visits in the hospitals, benefits, and so on. Marriage is a religious construct that should be left to the churches. I'm not entirely familiar with the degree with which homosexuals nationwide have gotten the rights of married people--like hospital visits--but in cases where they do have those rights and they are nevertheless campaigning to be legally married they have gone beyond asking for rights and are carrying out an all-out assault on a church's right to decide what is and is not against their religion.

As for calling me a bigot and comparing me to a Jim Crow supporter, I find that utterly disgusting. When liberals deem any difference in opinion to be bigoted hate speech, I can't even imagine what sort of descriptions they leave themselves for real bigotry. I don't hate anyone, and I am open to other opinions. I am by definition not bigoted. In fact, your outright dismissal of what I said is far closer to bigotry than my original post.
posted by Autarky at 8:34 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


I have yet to actually meet a conservative who hates gays

I have never met a conservative who, when homosexuality has been brought up, has shown anything but contempt for homosexuals. Ever.
posted by null terminated at 9:20 PM on November 6, 2008


Null Terminated, I believe we have a bit of reverse "No True Scotsman" going on here. I suspect you've met a lot of conservatives who didn't feel contempt for gays -- and because of that, you didn't realize they were conservatives, or didn't classify them that way.
posted by Class Goat at 9:50 PM on November 6, 2008


"Conservatives" who whine about people not liking their attempts to enshrine their religion into law are making it awfully hard for me to want to be nice to the 48ers.
posted by immlass at 9:54 PM on November 6, 2008


I have yet to actually meet a conservative who hates gays

I have never met a conservative who, when homosexuality has been brought up, has shown anything but contempt for homosexuals. Ever.
posted by null terminated at 12:20 AM on November 7 [+] [!]


I know some who don't - me, for instance. Several close gay friends, gay coworkers, and I'd go to bat to protect any of them from bigotry. And have.

And, yet, I'm an economic moderate-conservative (in the classical sense, not in the GWB "WHOOPIE WE GOTS THE POWER LETS SPEND SPEND SPEND AND CUT TAXES NO ONE CAN STOP US WE'RE IN POWER!" way).

That being said, most of the self-identified conservatives I know hate gays. And, FWIW, most of them are simply Republicans, which is currently (IMO) a sort of faux-conservative.

End grump.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:58 PM on November 6, 2008


Null Terminated, I believe we have a bit of reverse "No True Scotsman" going on here. I suspect you've met a lot of conservatives who didn't feel contempt for gays -- and because of that, you didn't realize they were conservatives, or didn't classify them that way.

I'm sure that's true. It's possible that the majority of conservatives are fine with homosexuality. However, the fact that every conservative I've spoken to about homosexuality has shown contempt for it makes me very suspicious of the statement, "I have yet to actually meet a conservative who hates gays".

I would argue that "Family Values", one of the cornerstones of the Conservative movement, is code for "no gays allowed".

I also realize the difference between conservatives, Conservatives and Republicans. I'm talking about the conservatives who supported Palin (who I would dub Conservatives).
posted by null terminated at 10:03 PM on November 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Heterosexuals and homosexuals should be granted civil unions: a purely legal binding agreement that covers stuff like visits in the hospitals, benefits, and so on.

And yet your ilk continue to vote against even civil unions when the issue is brought up.

but in cases where they do have those rights and they are nevertheless campaigning to be legally married they have gone beyond asking for rights and are carrying out an all-out assault on a church's right to decide what is and is not against their religion.

Not true, because churches don't have to marry or recognize the marriage of anyone they don't want to.

As for calling me a bigot and comparing me to a Jim Crow supporter, I find that utterly disgusting.

You should, because being a bigot is a disgusting thing.

When liberals deem any difference in opinion to be bigoted hate speech

I don't deem any difference of opinion to be hate speech. I deemed specifically disallowing a group of people fundamental rights based on what consenting adults they love bigotry. Note that I specifically said you didn't hate anyone.

I can't even imagine what sort of descriptions they leave themselves for real bigotry.

Homophobia is real bigotry.

In fact, your outright dismissal of what I said is far closer to bigotry than my original post.

Throwing the word back in my face doesn't change what you are.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:29 PM on November 6, 2008 [5 favorites]


Frankly, what I would like is an America with a small government that didn't bother itself with stuff like who is married and who isn't.

A vote for Proposition 8 was a vote to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry. It was a vote to amend the state constitution. That hardly sounds like a small government agenda to me.

I'm not entirely familiar with the degree with which homosexuals nationwide have gotten the rights of married people--like hospital visits--but in cases where they do have those rights and they are nevertheless campaigning to be legally married they have gone beyond asking for rights and are carrying out an all-out assault on a church's right to decide what is and is not against their religion.

As dirigibleman said, the state cannot force churches to preside over the unions of same-sex couples. Were you under the impression that the movement to legalize gay marriage was in fact a movement to abolish churches' rights to establish their own criteria for who can marry within their assemblies? This is hardly the case; it is a movement to include gay couples in existing marriage laws. It is a question of legal validity; religious validity does not enter into the equation. Your church can do whatever it likes.
posted by Powerful Religious Baby at 11:20 PM on November 6, 2008


It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
- Alfred Adler

There is only one way of not hating those who do us wrong, and that is by doing them good.
- Henri Amie

He who sows courtesy reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.
- St. Basil
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:44 PM on November 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Except Autarky, that if my church recognizes same sex marriage (and I know of churches that do), the State does not recognize that marriage. So the state is already telling churches what they can and cannot do. I learned over in the green that the State does not recognize marriages made legally abroad based on religious critieria (namely foreign gay and plural marriages.) Marriage is not in fact a religious construct. It is a social construct and societies only used religion to legitimize and solidify it by giving it "sanctity." It is in the interest of every society to encourage long-term stable familial relationships. To deny somewhere upwards of 10% (20%? more if you count people who believe in plural marriage) of the population the basic right to create a family that is right for them is destabilizing and shortsighted. Further it drives these marriages (because that's what they are) underground, inviting abuse (a particular danger to women in plural marriages). The hate laws don't stop these things, and they remove protections that people need.

You can talk about religion and civil unions and all that bullshit til you're blue (um red) in the face, but it comes down to people's inexplicable discomfort with the idea of gay or non-monogamous sex, fear of their own maybe fleeting and maybe frequent homosexual ideation, and yes, bigotry. The denial of basic rights that everyone else enjoys, based on imposed "values" is bigotry, it is hate.

I'd go on but it's really hard to type with a broken finger.
posted by nax at 4:50 AM on November 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


A friend of mine once pointed out that America will never be able to get past issues like gay marriage an abortion until there can be a nation-wide vote on these issues. People don't feel like their opinions are being taken seriously, and that everything is playing out in the courts. This leads to deep divisions.

I wonder if such a vote would end well...
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:22 AM on November 7, 2008


As for calling me a bigot and comparing me to a Jim Crow supporter, I find that utterly disgusting. When liberals deem any difference in opinion to be bigoted hate speech, I can't even imagine what sort of descriptions they leave themselves for real bigotry. I don't hate anyone, and I am open to other opinions. I am by definition not bigoted. In fact, your outright dismissal of what I said is far closer to bigotry than my original post.

I... what? Are you putting us on, or do you really not see the absurdity in what you're saying?

Here, let's play 'find the contradiction in these 31 words'.

I have several gay friends. Do I want them to marry? Not particularly. Do I love them? Yes. Do I respect them? Yes. Do I consider them second-class citizens? No.

So... you have one standard of acceptable behavior for your heterosexual friends, and a separate one for your homosexual ones, but this division of people into classes (one of which enjoys fewer freedoms under the law) does not make the latter group second-class. Um. OK. Let me be the first to suggest that not only are you demonstrably bigoted, but that you appear to misunderstand the definition of 'friend.' Bloviating at us with 'no YOU are!' for calling you out on this just makes your already untenable position look even more ridiculous.
posted by Mayor West at 7:38 AM on November 7, 2008 [3 favorites]


52 to 48?! F' that noise!

53 to 46! Get out of the way 'cause we're driving now, gramps!
posted by markkraft at 8:22 AM on November 7, 2008


Please ignore the "impeach Obama" and "Obama is a terrorist" fringe kooks on our side. I don't like them any more than you do. And please remember, they're being no crazier than many of you were four years ago. There are nutjobs at Free Republic and Red State the same way there are crazy people at Kos and Huffington Post. Let's stop pretending they represent their entire party.

Let's stop pretending the two are in any way equivalent. One group puts on fucking puppet shows at protests, and couldn't get a president impeached for the war crimes he did in fact commit. The other group successfully impeached a president for a goddamned blowjob.

This is as good a place as any to lay down a marker: Introduce an Article of Impeachment against Obama for some made-up pretended offense, and he sends U.S. Marshals to escort Bush and Cheney to the Hague for prosecution with the full blessing of the USG. Or, to paraphrase Charlie Murphy, "You motherfuckers take one more step to me, I'm gonna throw this motherfucking republican out the motherfucking window."

It's quite simple, really.
posted by trondant at 8:32 AM on November 7, 2008


A friend of mine once pointed out that America will never be able to get past issues like gay marriage an abortion until there can be a nation-wide vote on these issues.

You should tell your friend that voting about minority rights is fucking stupid. That isn't the sort of thing that you should be having a referendum over. The one thing I appreciate about the conservative government here in Canada -- who really doesn't like the gays -- is that they understand this fact.

My friend wrote about prop 8, and this quote is great: "I disagree with the populist view of rights. Our rights do not flow from majoritarian will. Equality rights are inherent in our human dignity - we as humans are all equal and are entitled to rights not to be deprived of the popular consensus of the day."
posted by chunking express at 8:47 AM on November 7, 2008 [3 favorites]


46 needs to understand that 53 is pissed off about the fact that so many in the 46 category put religion before science, race before reason, and believe that all Americans aren't endowed with the same inalienable rights.

If 46 wants a meaningful role in this country, they need, quite literally, to wake up to reality. If they can do that, then they'll deserve to play a meaningful role in the operations of this country.
posted by markkraft at 9:09 AM on November 7, 2008


"Hide your guns, bury your money, Obama's coming!" -- I saw this bumper sticker today. There are some of the 46/48 who are already readying themselves for, well, something. As part of their Urban Policy, gun ownership is addressed under the heading of Address Gun Violence in Cities. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them.

As for the whole "taxed to death" fear from Republicans of Democrats in power, this comic sums it up nicely.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:19 AM on November 7, 2008


Please ignore the "impeach Obama" and "Obama is a terrorist" fringe kooks on our side. I don't like them any more than you do.

The "fringe"? This was Team McCain speaking. It was Palin who trotted around the country saying Obama "pals around with terrorists". It was McCain's robocalls which libelous declared that Obama "associates with terrorists who cost American lives". The fringe was running the freakin' campaign.

I appreciate your willingness to not throw a wrench in the gears and not judge Obama's presidency until he's moved into the Oval Office. That's just great. But please, at least own up to the hate-mongering of McCain's campaign and understand why some of us aren't ready to roast marshmallows together with the people who questioned his patriotism, thanks.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:58 AM on November 7, 2008 [2 favorites]


I liked the one that said "A rising tide lifts all ships"
posted by rmless at 10:34 AM on November 7, 2008


A friend of mine once pointed out that America will never be able to get past issues like gay marriage an abortion until there can be a nation-wide vote on these issues.

Civil rights don't get referendums. What do you think would have happened if black civil rights had been put to a popular vote in 1950?
posted by desjardins at 10:36 AM on November 7, 2008


don't get shouldn't get
posted by desjardins at 10:37 AM on November 7, 2008


I'd just like to remind the conciliatory types of the grace and courtesy with which rightwingers greeted the results of the last presidential election, courtesy of Adam "Not really an American, but plays one on the Internet" Yoshida*:

In short: take that, you sons of bitches.

...

Those who sought to destroy this great man should get down upon their knees and beg the victors for mercy.

...

That's the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women.
[link mine]

Call it slacktivism, if you must, but I think that I'll stick to helping the healing process by declining to make rape jokes about your female relatives and friends. I'm sorry if your sense of entitlement is outraged by the lack of warm fuzzies on our part, but we're a little busy cleaning up the mess that you've left this country in.

*And for those on the right who might be tempted to say, but Yoshida is an extremist and doesn't represent me, well, feel free to point out your blog posts or comments from November 03, 2004--oh, heck, I'll be generous and say, from then until 11/10/04--denouncing Yoshida's rape fantasies. Certainly, your side demanded no less of Obama following the mildest of reprehensible comments by various random bozos, even if the hatemonger was connected to him only by skin color.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 AM on November 7, 2008 [2 favorites]


From a contributor:

Many of you were ugly, petulant, and accused me and those I support of unspeakable crimes from The President down to the lowly Soldier.

Well, yeah. That's what happens when you torture people to death; people call you all sorts of names. You know who else was accused of unspeakable crimes?

The real problem for the Republican party here is that they've tied their cause to a to a shrinking demographic. White Christians are the only Americans who vote Republican. All other groups vote (usually overwhelmingly) for Democrats. Only 39% of American citizens are white Christians, and they're shrinking every year as a percentage of the population. And even so, Barack Obama performed far better among them than previous Dem candidates.

The GOP must figure out a way to appeal to blacks, Hispanics, and non-Christians if it hopes to avoid complete electoral irrelevance in the future. Unfortunately for them, it appears the party leadership is intent on doubling down on their current policies, as if the problem this past Tuesday was that Republicans were too moderate and need to steer farther to the right. If they're not careful, they'll go the way of the Whigs.

And good riddance. The modern GOP is a party that runs on fear, bigotry, and willful ignorance. If they can't re-invent themselves and figure out something better to run on than keeping rights away from gay people and "drill, baby, drill!" and sneering about community organizers working to improve people's lives, they deserve it.
posted by EarBucket at 12:11 PM on November 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


Haha, here's the thing: their base won't let them do that. They'll drown in a shit-coated maelstrom of hatred and lies because that's who they roll with. It's called dancing with the one whut brung ya.
posted by trondant at 11:49 PM on November 7, 2008


McCain's campaign and understand why some of us aren't ready to roast marshmallows together with the people who questioned his patriotism, thanks.

Even worse, they questioned his religion. Imagine the uproar if the democrats had challenged Romney's faith or called him a muslim!
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:28 AM on November 8, 2008


"We will raze your houses and rub salt in your wounds"

Republicans to Democrats, '04:

"Go f*ck yourselves."

I also want to extend my one fingered victory salute to some specific individuals and groups. So here's a big F*ck You victory shout out to:

"Michael Moore, The City Pages, Al Franken, National Public Radio, Bruce Springsteen, MoveOn.org, Barbara Streisand, the a-holes at The New York Times (big-time!), Dan Rather, Rock The Vote, Garrison Keillor, CBS News, George Soros, The Guardian, Michael Stipe, The Minneapolis Star Tribune editorial board, P Diddy , Minnesota Public Radio, Nick Coleman, CNN, Paul Krugman, Kim Ode, the eastern half of Canada, Molly Ivins, Whoopi Goldberg, and France."
- Fraters Libertas

"Joe Biden has to be shoved aside, and Joe Lieberman elevated."
- Hugh Hewett

"Get with the program... accept the fact that you are powerless... Once the minority of House and Senate are comfortable with their minority status, they will have no problem socializing with the Republicans. Any farmer will tell you that certain animals run around and are unpleasant, but when they're fixed, then they are happy and sedate. They're contented and cheerful. They don't go around peeing on the furniture and such."
- Grover Norquist

"I earned capital in the campaign... political capital... and now I intend to spend it."
- George W. Bush

The fact is, the great majority of moderate, considerate Republican sentiment we are seeing after this election is just window dressing. They *KNOW* they have a bad brand on their hands right now... they're just trying to change the label on their dog food.

The fact is, they will try to tear Obama down, while rebranding themselves as reformers... and will trot out another Contract with America, similar to the one they already refused to honor. What happened to their promises of open committee meetings and balanced budget requirements?

The Republican Party is *counting* on Democrats appeasing them, until it becomes clear to the American people that if the choice is Republican or Republican-lite, you might as well choose Republican...

But if we do appease them, we'll be guilty of exactly the kind of weakness they invariably accuse us of.
posted by markkraft at 9:07 AM on November 8, 2008 [5 favorites]


And good riddance. The modern GOP is a party that runs on fear, bigotry, and willful ignorance. If they can't re-invent themselves and figure out something better to run on than keeping rights away from gay people and "drill, baby, drill!" and sneering about community organizers working to improve people's lives, they deserve it.

I think they should de-invent themselves - revert back to their previous incarnation as the party of the balanced budget and the smaller federal government. This is and always has been the raison d'etre of the pre-Reagan Republicans. It also serves a necessary purpose in a two-party system: balance. I don't contend that Democrats and Republicans should be mirror images of each other, but this historic dance between federalist and anti-federalist forces has always promoted American prosperity and a vigorously accountable government, a sort of checks-and-balances within the legislative branch itself.

But Reagan discovered it was easier to frighten people, or question their patriotism, as a means to attain power. He gave rise to the single-issue voters, inflating issues like abortion, homosexuality and religion in a cynical and inevitably successful attempt to cheaply push peoples' Madison Avenue buttons. The Democrats, instead of responding with outrage, buckled and played into it.

Now, this election has proven that progressivism has trumped shallow emotional manipulation, yes. But let's not forget that we didn't see a Reagan 1984 mandate here. There's still a lot of work to do. I think it behooves the GOP to reject the extremism and return to their anti-federalist roots. There are many strong cases that can be made for traditional conservativism (some of which would give the Democrats a run for their money, to be honest) while walking away from the sickening tactics that the American people have clearly expressed they find distasteful at best. You can see the GOP is starting to do this already, as they quickly write-off the Palinites, and the House minority writes an open letter to his fellow Republicans talking about "center right" values.

So while I have nothing but contempt for hate-mongers, racists and bullies, I'd welcome a federalist/anti-federalist partnership.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:43 AM on November 8, 2008


Marriage is a religious construct that should be left to the churches.

There's this thing called a marriage certificate, and it's not issued by churches. Letting men marry men doesn't hurt you other then maybe making you feel icky. Sorry for the gross feeling in your tummy, but it's not an excuse for touting separate-but-equal. You want to deny people their partners' retirement benefits; deny people the chance to adopt; etc etc. I can't help but wonder if 50 years ago, you would have sided with the segregationists. Good luck with that.
posted by malp at 3:48 PM on November 10, 2008


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