Falling Hard
July 12, 2020 12:09 PM Subscribe
We don't know how to navigate parasocial relationships. (SLMedium) Are you, or someone you love, a member of a fandom? More specifically, a fandom of a personality on the Internet? Then you're part of a parasocial relationship -- a relationship that involves an audience. And chances are, at one point or another, that person you follow, who may hold more power over you than you realize, will fall. It's happened before, as it did with podcaster Alastair Stephens, and it will happen again. Here's some advice on recognizing the potential problems and establishing boundaries to to protect yourself. (CW: talk of sexual and other misconduct.)
I'm asking the mods to fix the second link.
posted by lhauser at 12:39 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by lhauser at 12:39 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was not aware of what the hell was going on in the Smash Bros community. That link to Keitaro's statement in the first article should come with trigger warnings. It's not that it's hateful, it's just that he's so passive.
I had been a big fan of Cool Games because I like the McElroys, and I was honestly bummed for a while when all that came out about Nick. But what I also felt was stupid. I couldn't explain it to anyone. Who would think it was anything but stupid to care about a bunch of internet strangers? And I agreed.
It's good that there's this article for young people taking a kinder attitude towards it. But then maybe it's a little too kind. I notice that the possibility of getting off the internet is only the third of three options suggested for feeling better about being disappointed by an idol. Really, I know it's pandemic times, but --
posted by Countess Elena at 1:24 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I had been a big fan of Cool Games because I like the McElroys, and I was honestly bummed for a while when all that came out about Nick. But what I also felt was stupid. I couldn't explain it to anyone. Who would think it was anything but stupid to care about a bunch of internet strangers? And I agreed.
It's good that there's this article for young people taking a kinder attitude towards it. But then maybe it's a little too kind. I notice that the possibility of getting off the internet is only the third of three options suggested for feeling better about being disappointed by an idol. Really, I know it's pandemic times, but --
posted by Countess Elena at 1:24 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Thanks for this, the term "parasocial relationship" is new to me and very useful. It's... particularly relevant to me for pertinent personal reasons. This stuff isn't just confined to kids and Let's Players! I myself have, as the author stated "severely misunderstood the social boundaries at play between content creators and their audience". My "idol" as the author terms it did nothing wrong, but even without the horrendous prevalence of sexual and other abuses of power, the extremely weird power relationship between audience and creator on youtube is definitely a hell of a thing, and has emotionally affected me, and it's good and useful to see it discussed so clearly and with actionable advice.
posted by Balthamos at 1:26 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Balthamos at 1:26 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Over the years, I've seen various backstage types trying to remind people that performers (and, by extension, other celebrities) are usually on the clock when they're interacting with you, whether at the stage door or on social media. They're still curating their image, even when using Twitter or Instagram, which thrive on fictions on intimacy. I follow a handful of actors and dancers on Twitter, and I actually prefer it when they post but don't interact--it's a useful reminder that there's a separation.
posted by thomas j wise at 1:42 PM on July 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 1:42 PM on July 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
Coming at it from a critique of the cultivation of 'engagement' between creators and viewers on YouTube, video essayist Lindsay Ellis's piece on parasocial and identity boundaries between audience and performance and artist is worth your half hour.
posted by bartleby at 1:43 PM on July 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 1:43 PM on July 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
I've never been one to get into fandom (though I am certainly a fan), but this article spoke to me because I went through the downfall of Alastair Stephens, mentioned in the second link. I was very involved in his detailed podcast looking at the Lord Of The Rings that ended abruptly in mid-2018, when his ex-wife and others accused him of various abuses. I greatly enjoyed his analysis of Tolkien and the community that had grown up around his various podcasts.
The abrupt end of the podcast, near the end of The Return of the King, left many of us hanging, and we set up a subreddit (r/StoriesWeLove) that was active for a few months to discuss the remaining chapters and the movies, as well as to continue discussions following on from his Harry Potter and other podcasts. There was also a long and much-needed discussion thread there about how the accusations and their aftermath affected individual listeners.
posted by lhauser at 2:00 PM on July 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
The abrupt end of the podcast, near the end of The Return of the King, left many of us hanging, and we set up a subreddit (r/StoriesWeLove) that was active for a few months to discuss the remaining chapters and the movies, as well as to continue discussions following on from his Harry Potter and other podcasts. There was also a long and much-needed discussion thread there about how the accusations and their aftermath affected individual listeners.
posted by lhauser at 2:00 PM on July 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
Philosophy Tube also did a good episode on Fandom and parasocial relationships (and Star Wars, and Shakespeare) a few months ago.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:00 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 2:00 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Let's be honest: we see idolization actions everywhere on the internet, even here.
However, if your idol starts giving you special treatment — maybe by inviting you to a more tight-knit subset of the community, like a private Discord server or group chat — proceed with caution. If one thinks about it, this is a good ol' fashioned 'secondary location'.
Another warning sign I've noticed, related in a way to the 'suicidal statements' is when people claim the singular public person 'changed their life' or 'reevaluated their ethical stances'. That is a statement of immense power that a persona has on a person and is present not only in groups, sometimes later made large but deemed 'fringe', but even in smaller areas/fandoms/followings - persons known in a very small subset to be a 'broken step'. (I unfortunately am speaking from experience.)
posted by cobaltnine at 2:09 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
However, if your idol starts giving you special treatment — maybe by inviting you to a more tight-knit subset of the community, like a private Discord server or group chat — proceed with caution. If one thinks about it, this is a good ol' fashioned 'secondary location'.
Another warning sign I've noticed, related in a way to the 'suicidal statements' is when people claim the singular public person 'changed their life' or 'reevaluated their ethical stances'. That is a statement of immense power that a persona has on a person and is present not only in groups, sometimes later made large but deemed 'fringe', but even in smaller areas/fandoms/followings - persons known in a very small subset to be a 'broken step'. (I unfortunately am speaking from experience.)
posted by cobaltnine at 2:09 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Pappy O'Daniel was a radio host in Texas in the 1930s, who recognizably had this kind of parasocial fandom. He ended up being elected Governor twice and then Senator for one term. This phenomenon can give people a surprising amount of power and has been for a long time.
I tend to think that parasocial feelings may be inevitable as a result of having somebody's voice in your ear for hours at a time, but that there's basically nothing good or healthy about it and that it's best to resist participating in. Maybe this is too strong of a statement though.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:30 PM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I tend to think that parasocial feelings may be inevitable as a result of having somebody's voice in your ear for hours at a time, but that there's basically nothing good or healthy about it and that it's best to resist participating in. Maybe this is too strong of a statement though.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:30 PM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I remember the whole Lani and Alastair thing. I've been a fan of hers for years and have listened to a lot of her podcasts over the years, was happy when she found love again, etc. I admit I though Alastair was a bit of a mansplainer and I was always a bit confused as to how he was advising on writing when as far as I know he hadn't published anything, but I didn't think about it too hard since they had good rapport as far as I could tell. I do remember them being on Judge John Hodgman arguing over something like who took the trash cans out or whatever and it was cute but also a little odd?
And then HOOOOOO BOY, he was cheating and secretly abusive and OMG. I never knew he'd quit podcasting and posted this, though. Last I heard he'd gotten involved with another podcaster, Lani had heard from other exes of his and he had been shitty to them, etc. I haven't paid attention to him, but she at least has been recovering, so good for her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:14 PM on July 12, 2020
And then HOOOOOO BOY, he was cheating and secretly abusive and OMG. I never knew he'd quit podcasting and posted this, though. Last I heard he'd gotten involved with another podcaster, Lani had heard from other exes of his and he had been shitty to them, etc. I haven't paid attention to him, but she at least has been recovering, so good for her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:14 PM on July 12, 2020
Every time I feel any sort of closeness to a podcaster, I remind myself “you aren’t part of this, you’re just consuming,” then I go about my day. I think I learned this listening to Nightvale, where they so wanted me to live them that it was klaxons in my ears.
Also, can I just say, the McElroys make my skin crawl, and not in a good way. I mean, good luck to them, but not for me.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:45 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also, can I just say, the McElroys make my skin crawl, and not in a good way. I mean, good luck to them, but not for me.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:45 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Look, as long as Roman Mars remains a good person, I'm ok.
posted by signal at 3:51 PM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by signal at 3:51 PM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
"Content creation" is a helluva thing. Most creative people who are looking for an audience struggle mightily to get an audience, expand that audience, engage and maintain that audience. And, yeah, a lot of that ends up being unhealthy for the audience. (It can be unhealthy for the author/actor/podcaster/artist/etc., too.) Fandom, especially the directly interactive kind serviced by social media, is hard to keep in the healthy zone. But it's also something that can lead to real friendship and community building (but only when the fandom and creator(s) keep some separation).
It's always a good idea to judge the art and the artist separately, at least to an extent. Almost all humans will disappoint you eventually. You'd think the term "idol" would be warning enough!
posted by rikschell at 4:08 PM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's always a good idea to judge the art and the artist separately, at least to an extent. Almost all humans will disappoint you eventually. You'd think the term "idol" would be warning enough!
posted by rikschell at 4:08 PM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I started watching Let's Plays on YouTube while working third shift in a NOC back in 2012, as a way of relaxing between incidents and alerts. In particular, my favorite Let's Player was good ol' Cryaotic. He has a fantastic voice and is charming and funny in his delivery and content, and his stuff basically got me both onto YouTube and into Let's Plays generally. I followed him to Twitch, but I'm older and wasn't really interested in the chat there. Still, I watched VODs and such. In the interim years while watching his somewhat infrequent content, I enjoyed JonTron, Projared, and other eventually "problematic" creators, but none of them really hit me that hard and I always came back to Cry.
I watched his videos to alleviate anxiety. Before my second marriage, I watched his Catherine playthrough because I'm a dork and it was amusing. While not-sleeping in a chair while my wife and newborn son were sleeping after their labor (and eventual C-section), I watched his stuff to calm down and chill out. While I was never a sycophantic follower of his, I do consider it to have been something of a parasocial relationship, mostly due to how I felt at the end.
In late June this year, Cry revealed - due to being forced to - that he had engaged in grooming activities with 16 year old fans of his. After nearly 10 years of watching his content, sometimes repeatedly, I can't ever turn to what he produced to feel good ever again. I can't even think about seeing his content with a straight face, knowing what he did, and I won't be a party to it, even passively as part of his revenue stream. What he did to his victims will hopefully be the end of his career, and I want nothing but for his victims to sleep better at night knowing that he can never do this again. He didn't hurt me personally, but he hurt other people a lot, and I feel like an idiot for ever having associated with him (and funded him for a while via Twitch).
I'm pretty much done with Let's Plays, really down to just The Grumps and WoolieVS, and I'm not sure I want to bother any longer with them either, given my track record. This shit just sucks, and when it happens (over and over again...) you can't help but feel almost tainted by association.
posted by diracshard at 4:52 PM on July 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
I watched his videos to alleviate anxiety. Before my second marriage, I watched his Catherine playthrough because I'm a dork and it was amusing. While not-sleeping in a chair while my wife and newborn son were sleeping after their labor (and eventual C-section), I watched his stuff to calm down and chill out. While I was never a sycophantic follower of his, I do consider it to have been something of a parasocial relationship, mostly due to how I felt at the end.
In late June this year, Cry revealed - due to being forced to - that he had engaged in grooming activities with 16 year old fans of his. After nearly 10 years of watching his content, sometimes repeatedly, I can't ever turn to what he produced to feel good ever again. I can't even think about seeing his content with a straight face, knowing what he did, and I won't be a party to it, even passively as part of his revenue stream. What he did to his victims will hopefully be the end of his career, and I want nothing but for his victims to sleep better at night knowing that he can never do this again. He didn't hurt me personally, but he hurt other people a lot, and I feel like an idiot for ever having associated with him (and funded him for a while via Twitch).
I'm pretty much done with Let's Plays, really down to just The Grumps and WoolieVS, and I'm not sure I want to bother any longer with them either, given my track record. This shit just sucks, and when it happens (over and over again...) you can't help but feel almost tainted by association.
posted by diracshard at 4:52 PM on July 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
It can be so heartbreaking, especially when it’s something that is personal to you.
A podcast I loved once took on a topic that’s very niche, but has to do with a very specific segment of people to which I belong. They interviewed someone who knew quite a lot, but still had wild misconceptions about the topic, and ended up repeating the tropes that bullies used to hurt me in primary school.
It was a podcast that I had looked forward to every week. I wrote a rather long email, and never heard back. I eventually unsubscribed from the podcast.
It was a good reminder that podcasting, like all other mass media, is basically a one way relationship. But I still, every once in a while, think about that experience, and it still smarts a bit.
posted by Kattullus at 4:53 PM on July 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
A podcast I loved once took on a topic that’s very niche, but has to do with a very specific segment of people to which I belong. They interviewed someone who knew quite a lot, but still had wild misconceptions about the topic, and ended up repeating the tropes that bullies used to hurt me in primary school.
It was a podcast that I had looked forward to every week. I wrote a rather long email, and never heard back. I eventually unsubscribed from the podcast.
It was a good reminder that podcasting, like all other mass media, is basically a one way relationship. But I still, every once in a while, think about that experience, and it still smarts a bit.
posted by Kattullus at 4:53 PM on July 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
It’s really hard with podcasting in particular because I’m literally nestling a person’s voice right in my ears and into my head. It tricks your brain into jumping to like 2nd date level intimacy with a stranger talking to thousands of people at a time.
posted by Kemma80 at 5:38 PM on July 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by Kemma80 at 5:38 PM on July 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
I never thought i would say this but as it turns out, being a teenager that deeply loathed fascism yet admired ( from an entirely aesthetic perspective) Ezra Pound’s Cantos has been weirdly instructive for me over the past few decades.
posted by thivaia at 5:51 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 5:51 PM on July 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
It makes me wonder a bit how things must have been for the first generation to face the possibility of this kind of immediate parasocial contact. Much of the early 20th century - from the aforementioned "Pappy"* to FDR himself (via his Fireside chats) to the rise of the great dictators, maybe makes more sense when you realize they were living and operating in an age when this phenomenon was new, with none of the tolerance/cynicism/introspection about it that has grown up since. When people turned on the radio and heard their political leaders talking to them, it offered an even more powerful - because previously unexperienced - form of parasocial relationship, followed in many cases by the ultimate form of abuse of that new power.
*vogon_poet - you just managed to freak me out a bit, since I've been listening to Robert Caro's Means of Ascent and just got to the part where LBJ lost his first Senate race to Pappy.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:20 PM on July 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
*vogon_poet - you just managed to freak me out a bit, since I've been listening to Robert Caro's Means of Ascent and just got to the part where LBJ lost his first Senate race to Pappy.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:20 PM on July 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
There's also a lot to be said for those who now find themselves objects of adoration. None of that power differential is healthy, and the worst thing I find, observing from the outside, is because so much of it is fannish mania, you quickly lose sight over what's constructive criticism and what's not. And it's not like these are celebs of the traditional sort who would have the resources for assistants etc that can help filter out all the noise.
Eg when Contrapoints (in many ways misguidedly) engaged with Buck Angel, and the amount of vitriol headed her way as well as to her friends like Lindsay Ellis. So much of that was very contentious, very painful intra-community dialogue, but there was no way to have the dialogue within the kind of communicative space we're in, with the parasocially entitled.
No wonder the z-list and the internet class is rife with abuse, so many people become unwitting 'missing stairs' become they can't filter out the signal to noise to actually see the red flags, and become accidental accomplices.
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on July 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
Eg when Contrapoints (in many ways misguidedly) engaged with Buck Angel, and the amount of vitriol headed her way as well as to her friends like Lindsay Ellis. So much of that was very contentious, very painful intra-community dialogue, but there was no way to have the dialogue within the kind of communicative space we're in, with the parasocially entitled.
No wonder the z-list and the internet class is rife with abuse, so many people become unwitting 'missing stairs' become they can't filter out the signal to noise to actually see the red flags, and become accidental accomplices.
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on July 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
A lot of these dynamics were present in the Warren Ellis Forum. It was surprising how many people thought that Ellis was basically their friend, and defended some of his more egregious behavior even when it was blatantly obvious that he wasn't.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:18 AM on July 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:18 AM on July 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
I think I learned this listening to Nightvale, where they so wanted me to live them that it was klaxons in my ears.
I was a Nightvale fan until I saw them live. After that, I just.. couldn't. Maybe it was other fans braying laughter and applause whenever a random character got mentioned, maybe it was how self-serious the Nightvale folks take themselves, but that experience flipped a switch in my head and I was done.
After that, I'd start to take breaks from other podcasts just to make sure I wouldn't OD and have that Switch Flip moment. It is usually for the better as most of the content I go for tends to be evergreen. Although I did have one where during my break one of the hosts fell into the conspiracy black hole where Marxists lurk around every corner and thus totally tainted a previously fun go-to show I had listened to (and supported) for years.
I'm currently backing off McElroy content as I feel the switch starting to flip there as well. Their recent D&D podcast has been so disappointing it impacted my ability to listen to their flagship show (though not Monster Factory... hrm... wonder why...).
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:53 AM on July 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
I was a Nightvale fan until I saw them live. After that, I just.. couldn't. Maybe it was other fans braying laughter and applause whenever a random character got mentioned, maybe it was how self-serious the Nightvale folks take themselves, but that experience flipped a switch in my head and I was done.
After that, I'd start to take breaks from other podcasts just to make sure I wouldn't OD and have that Switch Flip moment. It is usually for the better as most of the content I go for tends to be evergreen. Although I did have one where during my break one of the hosts fell into the conspiracy black hole where Marxists lurk around every corner and thus totally tainted a previously fun go-to show I had listened to (and supported) for years.
I'm currently backing off McElroy content as I feel the switch starting to flip there as well. Their recent D&D podcast has been so disappointing it impacted my ability to listen to their flagship show (though not Monster Factory... hrm... wonder why...).
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:53 AM on July 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
I was a Nightvale fan until I saw them live.
Replace "saw them" with "heard the first live episode's recording" and I'd accuse you of being me! The string of "and here's $character" "ROAR OF APPLAUSE AND WOO!S!" "here's $reference" "LOUDER ROAR OF APPLAUSE" tripped a circuit breaker and then ripped the panel out of the wall. (Other podcasts' live episodes I tend to find generally weaker for much the same dynamic, but Nightvale's so far was the only one that had that dramatic an effect.) (Also I've no idea what the actual people involved in cast and production are like.)
Back off that tangent! I liked this essay and thanks for linking it. I've forwarded it on to friends with kids close to and in the following-more-and-more-youtubers-and-such (who haven't yet hit someone they were a fan of milkshake-ducking) bracket it's especially aimed for and around.
posted by Drastic at 8:13 AM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Replace "saw them" with "heard the first live episode's recording" and I'd accuse you of being me! The string of "and here's $character" "ROAR OF APPLAUSE AND WOO!S!" "here's $reference" "LOUDER ROAR OF APPLAUSE" tripped a circuit breaker and then ripped the panel out of the wall. (Other podcasts' live episodes I tend to find generally weaker for much the same dynamic, but Nightvale's so far was the only one that had that dramatic an effect.) (Also I've no idea what the actual people involved in cast and production are like.)
Back off that tangent! I liked this essay and thanks for linking it. I've forwarded it on to friends with kids close to and in the following-more-and-more-youtubers-and-such (who haven't yet hit someone they were a fan of milkshake-ducking) bracket it's especially aimed for and around.
posted by Drastic at 8:13 AM on July 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don’t seem to former parasocial relations easily. I wonder if it’s partly that my “close friends slots” in my “social needs matrix” are generally sufficiently occupied? I make new friends, but it’s not like I feel a lack of friendship in my life that I am looking to fill generally speaking. Or, my working for a decade in a bookstore where we did frequent author signings meant that I met a lot of people who produced content I enjoyed, but in a setting That wasn’t specifically social. So I got used to interacting with them in a different way. Nowadays, if I meet a Podcaster or author whose work I like, it is usually at an event of some sort, and I am concerned about eating up there limited time more than I am about having a deep social moment with them.
I do have friends who are authors whose work I like, but, when we interact, we generally interact as friends, not as reader and producer.
After the Warren Ellis story broke, a friend of mine and I were talking about who we would be horribly disappointed to discover was a creep, and our list was almost all women. I guess we’re just braced for any male creator to be terrible on some level.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:42 AM on July 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
I do have friends who are authors whose work I like, but, when we interact, we generally interact as friends, not as reader and producer.
After the Warren Ellis story broke, a friend of mine and I were talking about who we would be horribly disappointed to discover was a creep, and our list was almost all women. I guess we’re just braced for any male creator to be terrible on some level.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:42 AM on July 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Early in lockdown I started watching a lot of a YouTube channel on its way from 'shared interests' to 'ersatz friend group'. I stopped when I realized that the ads I was being served had switched entirely to mental health support and obviously terrible loans.
Targeting those two sets of ads together was filling me with fury and dismay.
posted by clew at 6:59 PM on July 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Targeting those two sets of ads together was filling me with fury and dismay.
posted by clew at 6:59 PM on July 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
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posted by PennD at 12:22 PM on July 12, 2020