How good are face masks, really?
November 2, 2021 8:36 AM Subscribe
Massive Random-Controlled Trial of Face-Mask Protection against COVID-19 "Critics of mask mandates have cited the lack of relevant randomized clinical trials, which assign participants at random to either a control group or an intervention group. But the latest finding is based on a randomized trial involving nearly 350,000 people across rural Bangladesh."
The pre-print study funded by Givewell.org, "linked surgical masks with an 11% drop in risk, [35% drop for 60+ yrs] compared with a 5% drop for cloth. That finding was reinforced by laboratory experiments whose results are summarized in the same preprint. The data show that even after 10 washes, surgical masks filter out 76% of small particles capable of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2, says Mushfiq Mobarak, an economist at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, and a co-author of the study. By contrast, the team found that 3-layered cloth masks had a filtration efficiency of only 37% before washing or use."
Research study paper.
Commentary.
The pre-print study funded by Givewell.org, "linked surgical masks with an 11% drop in risk, [35% drop for 60+ yrs] compared with a 5% drop for cloth. That finding was reinforced by laboratory experiments whose results are summarized in the same preprint. The data show that even after 10 washes, surgical masks filter out 76% of small particles capable of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2, says Mushfiq Mobarak, an economist at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, and a co-author of the study. By contrast, the team found that 3-layered cloth masks had a filtration efficiency of only 37% before washing or use."
Research study paper.
Commentary.
The one thing I'd love to see is photos of the two different types of masks (cloth, surgical), and pictures of how they are fit on participants.
I know that for me the fit of surgical masks feels kind of . . . terrible, and no amount of filtration efficacy is going to make up for the fact that there are gigantic gaps at the sides and nose bridge for me.
posted by that girl at 8:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
I know that for me the fit of surgical masks feels kind of . . . terrible, and no amount of filtration efficacy is going to make up for the fact that there are gigantic gaps at the sides and nose bridge for me.
posted by that girl at 8:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
The reported effect of increased mask-wearing was a lot smaller than I would have thought:
posted by slkinsey at 8:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Among the 335,382 participants who completed symptom surveys, 27,166 (8.1%) reported experiencing COVID-like illnesses during the study period. More participants in the control villages reported incident COVID-like illnesses (n=13,893, 8.6%) compared with participants in the intervention villages (n=13,273, 7.6%). Over one-third (40.3%) of symptomatic participants agreed to blood collection. Omitting symptomatic participants who did not consent to blood collection, symptomatic seroprevalence was 0.76% in control villages and 0.68% in the intervention villages. Because these numbers omit non-consenters, it is likely that the true rates of symptomatic seroprevalence are substantially higher (perhaps by 2.5 times, if non-consenters have similar seroprevalence to consenters).However, this may be because overall rates were still pretty low, as noted by the authors: "Mask-wearing was 13.3% in control villages and 42.3% in treatment villages."
posted by slkinsey at 8:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
After initial reporting about this came out I immediately switched to always using surgical masks. I still have some cloth sitting around (and peak Delta I was putting cloth over surgical) but this is pretty compelling evidence that a) all masking works and b) surgical masks are significantly better.
posted by latkes at 8:59 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by latkes at 8:59 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Doesn't this imply that cloth masks should be banned in favor of surgical masks? Or masks should be made optional? It doesn't make sense to bar someone from entering a store because they aren't doing something that reduces risk by 5% but be perfectly fine with them not doing a very similar thing that reduces risk by an extra 6%.
posted by hermanubis at 9:00 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by hermanubis at 9:00 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
hermanubis, that would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that the real purpose of YOU wearing a mask is to prevent you from infecting ME. The fact that the mask also reduces your own infection risk by a bit, which is the only thing this study measured, is merely a bonus. (A non-negligible bonus, but a bonus nonetheless.)
posted by heatherlogan at 9:04 AM on November 2, 2021 [52 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 9:04 AM on November 2, 2021 [52 favorites]
I know that for me the fit of surgical masks feels kind of . . . terrible, and no amount of filtration efficacy is going to make up for the fact that there are gigantic gaps at the sides and nose bridge for me.
Yeah, the main reason I've gone back to cloth masks is the impossibility of finding good masks that actually fit on my face in anything like a secure manner. During the last winter surge I was surgical-taping the sides and bottom of surgical masks to my skin but it only lasted ~5 minutes at best--walking from 10 degrees F into a warm grocery store just peeled the stuff right off.
If the suggestion is that a poor-fitting surgical mask is somehow still better than a well-fitting cloth mask then I'll switch back but I don't know that this is what the study shows.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:06 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the main reason I've gone back to cloth masks is the impossibility of finding good masks that actually fit on my face in anything like a secure manner. During the last winter surge I was surgical-taping the sides and bottom of surgical masks to my skin but it only lasted ~5 minutes at best--walking from 10 degrees F into a warm grocery store just peeled the stuff right off.
If the suggestion is that a poor-fitting surgical mask is somehow still better than a well-fitting cloth mask then I'll switch back but I don't know that this is what the study shows.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:06 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Germany also found that masks helped limit the spread of the disease.
Weighing various estimates, we conclude that 20 d after becoming mandatory face masks have reduced the number of new infections by around 45%. As economic costs are close to zero compared to other public health measures, masks seem to be a cost-effective means to combat COVID-19.
The Taiwanese government distributes surgical masks to citizens by day of week. It is a pretty smart part of public health policy that has helped slow the virus. It also limits artificial (i.e., market-driven) shortages of PPE, where the free market approach to healthcare in the United States otherwise helps the virus spread and mutate.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:13 AM on November 2, 2021 [16 favorites]
Weighing various estimates, we conclude that 20 d after becoming mandatory face masks have reduced the number of new infections by around 45%. As economic costs are close to zero compared to other public health measures, masks seem to be a cost-effective means to combat COVID-19.
The Taiwanese government distributes surgical masks to citizens by day of week. It is a pretty smart part of public health policy that has helped slow the virus. It also limits artificial (i.e., market-driven) shortages of PPE, where the free market approach to healthcare in the United States otherwise helps the virus spread and mutate.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:13 AM on November 2, 2021 [16 favorites]
I've been operating on the assumption that wearing my mask confers a benefit, albeit a small one, to my own safety -- but that the primary purpose of wearing my mask is to reduce my chances of infecting other people. So it's nice to have it confirmed that I do get some bit of personal protection as well.
I don't understand how to get from there to "masks should be optional".
posted by lazaruslong at 9:13 AM on November 2, 2021 [26 favorites]
I don't understand how to get from there to "masks should be optional".
posted by lazaruslong at 9:13 AM on November 2, 2021 [26 favorites]
This is really interesting.
I'm tempted to play devil's advocate and argue that a difference between 7.6% and 8.6% among self-reported symptoms in a large study is not exactly a slam-dunk argument for masking. There's a cost-benefit analysis here which those of us who view the costs of masks as negligible will probably consider rather differently from the anti-mask crowd. (I think they're wrong. But, many of them are sincere.)
Living in a place with small families, big supermarkets, and almost universal indoor mask compliance (except in restaurants) probably makes masks more effective where I live than in this study. I'm happy to keep wearing one. But, I also regularly take other risks that increase my chances of getting sick by significantly more than 1% in two months. I suppose the difference is that when I eat sketchy street food, it doesn't expose you to risk.
posted by eotvos at 9:14 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm tempted to play devil's advocate and argue that a difference between 7.6% and 8.6% among self-reported symptoms in a large study is not exactly a slam-dunk argument for masking. There's a cost-benefit analysis here which those of us who view the costs of masks as negligible will probably consider rather differently from the anti-mask crowd. (I think they're wrong. But, many of them are sincere.)
Living in a place with small families, big supermarkets, and almost universal indoor mask compliance (except in restaurants) probably makes masks more effective where I live than in this study. I'm happy to keep wearing one. But, I also regularly take other risks that increase my chances of getting sick by significantly more than 1% in two months. I suppose the difference is that when I eat sketchy street food, it doesn't expose you to risk.
posted by eotvos at 9:14 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
The fact that the mask also reduces your own infection risk by a bit, which is the only thing this study measured
Unless I misread the study, that is not what it measured but rather the overall effect of increased mask-wearing on infection rates, which effect was presumably due to the fact that wearers of the different types of masks infected fewer people as a presumed result of the efficacy of the masks and the influence of their interventions on other behaviors such as social distancing.
posted by slkinsey at 9:14 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Unless I misread the study, that is not what it measured but rather the overall effect of increased mask-wearing on infection rates, which effect was presumably due to the fact that wearers of the different types of masks infected fewer people as a presumed result of the efficacy of the masks and the influence of their interventions on other behaviors such as social distancing.
posted by slkinsey at 9:14 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
This morning, the NY Times linked an interesting discussion on twitter by John Burn-Murdoch of The Financial Times about the reasons covid has been worse in the UK than in much of Europe, which includes a side discussion of the different masking rules in Scotland and England.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the main reason I've gone back to cloth masks is the impossibility of finding good masks that actually fit on my face in anything like a secure manner.
Another option is the use of KF94s or KN95s. They are the N95 equivalents in South Korea and China (respectively) and have a much better fit as well as improved filtration. BeHealthy is one good source and reviews of brands (and websites to purchase them) are all over the Internet and YouTube.
posted by Anonymous at 9:20 AM on November 2, 2021
Another option is the use of KF94s or KN95s. They are the N95 equivalents in South Korea and China (respectively) and have a much better fit as well as improved filtration. BeHealthy is one good source and reviews of brands (and websites to purchase them) are all over the Internet and YouTube.
posted by Anonymous at 9:20 AM on November 2, 2021
As economic costs are close to zero compared to other public health measures, masks seem to be a cost-effective means to combat COVID-19.
Agreed on the "compared to" but it's not really zero. As a matter of eternal curiosity I've tracked my family's mask costs since we bought our first ones. Also I have spent hours on it.
Phase 1, spring 2020: "Any cloth mask you can get" - cost of masks for 3 adult-sized, 1 child-sized person initial outlay: $105 + $8 in lingerie bags to hang/wash them in
Phase 2, late summer 2020: Peak cloth mask purchases - upgraded to 3-ply masks + filter inserts. $95 in masks, $80 in filters, $15 in lanyards. $5 in a cute tiny garbage bin to throw filters into in the front hall.
Phase 3, late fall/early winter 2020: OH SHIT - 6 boxes of KN95 masks=$200, one of which was for the child and as of spring no longer fits anyone so I gave the leftovers to a neighbour. This would have been more but we all went into lockdown, so no school masks, minimal work out of the home, etc.
Phase 4, post-Delta reopening this summer: Back to in-person work for 2 of us, some KN95 use, purchase of disposable surgical masks we could handle running camp days in and playing games, etc. (The KN95s make me dizzy when doing cardio) = $120
Phase 5: Entire family goes to surgical masks only with leftover KN95s for situations like ophthalmologist visits, minimum of one a day for those going to work and school, but life resumes = about $90/month, depending.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
Agreed on the "compared to" but it's not really zero. As a matter of eternal curiosity I've tracked my family's mask costs since we bought our first ones. Also I have spent hours on it.
Phase 1, spring 2020: "Any cloth mask you can get" - cost of masks for 3 adult-sized, 1 child-sized person initial outlay: $105 + $8 in lingerie bags to hang/wash them in
Phase 2, late summer 2020: Peak cloth mask purchases - upgraded to 3-ply masks + filter inserts. $95 in masks, $80 in filters, $15 in lanyards. $5 in a cute tiny garbage bin to throw filters into in the front hall.
Phase 3, late fall/early winter 2020: OH SHIT - 6 boxes of KN95 masks=$200, one of which was for the child and as of spring no longer fits anyone so I gave the leftovers to a neighbour. This would have been more but we all went into lockdown, so no school masks, minimal work out of the home, etc.
Phase 4, post-Delta reopening this summer: Back to in-person work for 2 of us, some KN95 use, purchase of disposable surgical masks we could handle running camp days in and playing games, etc. (The KN95s make me dizzy when doing cardio) = $120
Phase 5: Entire family goes to surgical masks only with leftover KN95s for situations like ophthalmologist visits, minimum of one a day for those going to work and school, but life resumes = about $90/month, depending.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
On a technical note, the study didn’t look at individual risk association with individual mask usage. It was a population study of population effects. The outcome is that enough of us wearing masks reduces the overall incidence of COVID-19 (which is necessary for ending the pandemic, as well as lowering individual risk). Which roughly translates to “I wear a mask in order to protect your health,” for sure, but even there the individual focus is slightly misleading. (‘Course, humans aren’t usually very good at thinking about population effects in general, which has always been a challenge of epidemiology and public health communication, as I understand it.)
To hermanubis‘ comment, I don’t see how banning a helpful but not the most helpful measure would at all be useful. In particular, if everyone suddenly started wearing surgical masks tomorrow, we’d have some supply chain issues, but if cloth masks were banned then people who were unable to obtain surgical masks would have nothing. That is obviously dumb and unhelpful. Likewise making masks optional in places where they are currently required would be a step backwards, that would be contraindicated by the results of this study. Yes, one outcome of the study is that the villages with the mask promotion campaigns had mask wearing rates in the 40%s as opposed to other villages where mask wearing rates were around 13%, so we can conclude that promotion versus nothing does improve mask wearing rates. That’s not relevant to any area that already has 80- or 90-something% mask wearing rates due to a mask mandate.
To eotvos‘ comment, the study, importantly, doesn’t only rely on self-reported symptoms, but also tested sero-positivity before and after the mask promotion intervention. They found a more significant effect there. There’s also a big difference between you changing your personal risk by 1% and population prevalence of COVID-19 increasing or decreasing by 1%. Individual risk and population risk or prevalence of the virus are related of course, but non-linearly. Especially around thresholds such as the % vaccination rate needed to prevent population spread of a disease, where a +/- 1% change can mean the difference between an epidemic ending or continuing to propagate.
posted by eviemath at 9:27 AM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
To hermanubis‘ comment, I don’t see how banning a helpful but not the most helpful measure would at all be useful. In particular, if everyone suddenly started wearing surgical masks tomorrow, we’d have some supply chain issues, but if cloth masks were banned then people who were unable to obtain surgical masks would have nothing. That is obviously dumb and unhelpful. Likewise making masks optional in places where they are currently required would be a step backwards, that would be contraindicated by the results of this study. Yes, one outcome of the study is that the villages with the mask promotion campaigns had mask wearing rates in the 40%s as opposed to other villages where mask wearing rates were around 13%, so we can conclude that promotion versus nothing does improve mask wearing rates. That’s not relevant to any area that already has 80- or 90-something% mask wearing rates due to a mask mandate.
To eotvos‘ comment, the study, importantly, doesn’t only rely on self-reported symptoms, but also tested sero-positivity before and after the mask promotion intervention. They found a more significant effect there. There’s also a big difference between you changing your personal risk by 1% and population prevalence of COVID-19 increasing or decreasing by 1%. Individual risk and population risk or prevalence of the virus are related of course, but non-linearly. Especially around thresholds such as the % vaccination rate needed to prevent population spread of a disease, where a +/- 1% change can mean the difference between an epidemic ending or continuing to propagate.
posted by eviemath at 9:27 AM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
Doesn't this imply that cloth masks should be banned in favor of surgical masks?
Cloth masks have already been banned in some situations in Europe, for quite a while.
More and more international airlines are requiring surgical masks
Germany weighs up mandatory FFP2 masks in shops and on transport
posted by meowzilla at 9:29 AM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Cloth masks have already been banned in some situations in Europe, for quite a while.
More and more international airlines are requiring surgical masks
Germany weighs up mandatory FFP2 masks in shops and on transport
posted by meowzilla at 9:29 AM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Another option is the use of KF94s or KN95s. They are the N95 equivalents in South Korea and China (respectively) and have a much better fit as well as improved filtration. BeHealthy is one good source and reviews of brands (and websites to purchase them) are all over the Internet and YouTube.
I have attempted several different brands of these as well to no better effect--most are so large they cover the bottom half of my eyes, and the smaller sizes are so small they do not cover the corners of my mouth unless I avoid speaking at all (which is sometimes, but not always, possible). Plus as others have noted those are not advisable for cardio exercise.
Again: no objection to these in and of themselves. My decision to stay with three-ply cloth/filter masks was based on the understanding that a bad seal cancels out the other advantages of surgical/KN95-style masks. I just cannot tell from anything here whether that is still thought to be the case. Would love, as the comment I responded to above said, to know whether they evaluated fits in their study.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have attempted several different brands of these as well to no better effect--most are so large they cover the bottom half of my eyes, and the smaller sizes are so small they do not cover the corners of my mouth unless I avoid speaking at all (which is sometimes, but not always, possible). Plus as others have noted those are not advisable for cardio exercise.
Again: no objection to these in and of themselves. My decision to stay with three-ply cloth/filter masks was based on the understanding that a bad seal cancels out the other advantages of surgical/KN95-style masks. I just cannot tell from anything here whether that is still thought to be the case. Would love, as the comment I responded to above said, to know whether they evaluated fits in their study.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Doesn't this imply that cloth masks should be banned in favor of surgical masks?
We recently flew for the first time in a couple of years and were surpirsed to learn that Air France requires surgical/disposable masks and insisted passengers switch if they came aboard wearing reusable cloth masks.
On preview, i see meowzilla has it covered.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
We recently flew for the first time in a couple of years and were surpirsed to learn that Air France requires surgical/disposable masks and insisted passengers switch if they came aboard wearing reusable cloth masks.
On preview, i see meowzilla has it covered.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
he real purpose of YOU wearing a mask is to prevent you from infecting ME. The fact that the mask also reduces your own infection risk by a bit, which is the only thing this study measured, is merely a bonus.
Thanks for clarifying this; it feels like somewhere along the way we've lost the message around mask wearing - it's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting everyone else from you and keeping your germs to yourself. I guess that kind of messaging doesn't sell the idea as well, maybe?
posted by nubs at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Thanks for clarifying this; it feels like somewhere along the way we've lost the message around mask wearing - it's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting everyone else from you and keeping your germs to yourself. I guess that kind of messaging doesn't sell the idea as well, maybe?
posted by nubs at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
i will say this much about my (american) view on french mask wearing - saw more of it, more regularly, than in NYC (but less than SF) and it was notable how uncommon cloth masks were out an about, however a truly sizable section of the population seemed genuinely convinced that the mask goes under your nose, not over.
in defense of my chatty-observation, id have thought that the lesser efficacy of cloth was due to improper wear, but as everyone else in this thread has noted, bad fit/improper wear seems endemic and not particularly associated with any one mask type?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:51 AM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
in defense of my chatty-observation, id have thought that the lesser efficacy of cloth was due to improper wear, but as everyone else in this thread has noted, bad fit/improper wear seems endemic and not particularly associated with any one mask type?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:51 AM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think a good way to think about it is that masks reduce the amount of COVID in the air.
We recently flew for the first time in a couple of years and were surpirsed to learn that Air France requires surgical/disposable masks and insisted passengers switch if they came aboard wearing reusable cloth masks.
I had a Dr. appt in a hospital last week and when I checked in they made me put a blue surgical mask on over my N95. I'm sure it's mostly liability avoision in everybody signaling protection with a light blue face square, but it was also a welcome example of "it's about all of us."
posted by rhizome at 9:54 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
We recently flew for the first time in a couple of years and were surpirsed to learn that Air France requires surgical/disposable masks and insisted passengers switch if they came aboard wearing reusable cloth masks.
I had a Dr. appt in a hospital last week and when I checked in they made me put a blue surgical mask on over my N95. I'm sure it's mostly liability avoision in everybody signaling protection with a light blue face square, but it was also a welcome example of "it's about all of us."
posted by rhizome at 9:54 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I also had remembered seeing other studies on different varieties of masks and their filtration efficiency, and seeing at least some models of cloth masks with efficiencies of far greater than 37%. It sounds like the study shows that the filtration efficiency of the masks they distributed was only 37%, which is a much different claim than "Any cloth mask has a filtration efficiency of only 37%"
posted by that girl at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by that girl at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
however a truly sizable section of the population seemed genuinely convinced that the mask goes under your nose, not over.
I don't know about "convinced." I'd go more with intentional half-stepping. "I'm only here so I don't get fined."
posted by rhizome at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know about "convinced." I'd go more with intentional half-stepping. "I'm only here so I don't get fined."
posted by rhizome at 9:56 AM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
if everyone suddenly started wearing surgical masks tomorrow, we’d have some supply chain issues
I'm not entirely sure that we would, at least in the US. Many of the companies formed during the pandemic to create masks shuttered during the summer 2021 lull:
U.S. Companies Shifted To Make N95 Respirators During COVID. Now, They're Struggling (June 2021)
One Year Later, America’s Mask Supply Chain Is Still Vulnerable (July 2021)
The fact that we had so many of them also illustrates that mask production is not a very difficult industry to enter. It's just that the main purchasers would rather save a few bucks and import them overseas, regardless of the environmental impact or the increased risk to our domestic supply chains.
In retrospect, subsidizing and distributing surgical masks (along with mandates) appears to be an obvious win-win by the government to slow the spread of the disease. Instead, it became a political issue.
posted by meowzilla at 10:00 AM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure that we would, at least in the US. Many of the companies formed during the pandemic to create masks shuttered during the summer 2021 lull:
U.S. Companies Shifted To Make N95 Respirators During COVID. Now, They're Struggling (June 2021)
One Year Later, America’s Mask Supply Chain Is Still Vulnerable (July 2021)
The fact that we had so many of them also illustrates that mask production is not a very difficult industry to enter. It's just that the main purchasers would rather save a few bucks and import them overseas, regardless of the environmental impact or the increased risk to our domestic supply chains.
In retrospect, subsidizing and distributing surgical masks (along with mandates) appears to be an obvious win-win by the government to slow the spread of the disease. Instead, it became a political issue.
posted by meowzilla at 10:00 AM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Anecdotally I
a) hate masks personally, I get triggered into an adrenaline spike about once a week in them and
b) I believe in them a lot. Due to my work I get a lot of information about cases in local-to-me schools (masks are required) and we've had a couple of positive cases in our building, where there were close contacts and everyone got tested and - zero transmission of next cases in masked and distanced environments. Even at school. Any transmission was via siblings or family at home.
Knock wood.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:03 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
a) hate masks personally, I get triggered into an adrenaline spike about once a week in them and
b) I believe in them a lot. Due to my work I get a lot of information about cases in local-to-me schools (masks are required) and we've had a couple of positive cases in our building, where there were close contacts and everyone got tested and - zero transmission of next cases in masked and distanced environments. Even at school. Any transmission was via siblings or family at home.
Knock wood.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:03 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is an adjacent derail, but where are people/research on indoors with masks for non-pod.
Eg, my in-laws have been coming twice a week, but always outside. Their behavior (vax'd but not always masking) of meeting friends inside and going to retail/service stores is beyond what we're doing.
...Once it gets cold, are people having social instances like this move inside, or are they just turning them off for the winter?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 10:29 AM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Eg, my in-laws have been coming twice a week, but always outside. Their behavior (vax'd but not always masking) of meeting friends inside and going to retail/service stores is beyond what we're doing.
...Once it gets cold, are people having social instances like this move inside, or are they just turning them off for the winter?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 10:29 AM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’m not surprised that cloth masks are very ineffective but it sucks because everyone wearing surgical masks all the time generates so much freaking waste. As someone who was all into reusable containers and metal straws pre-pandemic, it just sucks to see how much more waste we’re creating now. I see surgical masks littered on the ground all the time now. It’s depressing.
posted by vanitas at 10:30 AM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by vanitas at 10:30 AM on November 2, 2021 [19 favorites]
Thanks for clarifying this; it feels like somewhere along the way we've lost the message around mask wearing - it's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting everyone else from you and keeping your germs to yourself. I guess that kind of messaging doesn't sell the idea as well, maybe?
This message only works if the people around you aren't convinced of their own immunity, and aren't actively wishing for your demise because you're the wrong color or voted for the wrong person.
posted by meowzilla at 10:39 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
This message only works if the people around you aren't convinced of their own immunity, and aren't actively wishing for your demise because you're the wrong color or voted for the wrong person.
posted by meowzilla at 10:39 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
These days i go around with those duck-billed KN94/95 masks, now that i found i can soothe my anxiety in indoor eateries with those masks, since they fold well enough to curve up so it covers my nose as i eat. If you want to talk about silly quasi-scientific folk solutions.
That said, i never fully trusted multi-layer cloth masks if they don't have a filter pocket. Is that common enough to find? Then i insert N95-grade filters, but i don't use them in high ambient risk situations unless I've tailored the fit myself.
posted by cendawanita at 10:43 AM on November 2, 2021
That said, i never fully trusted multi-layer cloth masks if they don't have a filter pocket. Is that common enough to find? Then i insert N95-grade filters, but i don't use them in high ambient risk situations unless I've tailored the fit myself.
posted by cendawanita at 10:43 AM on November 2, 2021
a bad seal cancels out the other advantages of surgical/KN95-style masks
KN95/KF94 masks are supposed to be sealed to your face. If you have large gaps then you are wearing it improperly or need to find a better fitting brand. There are lots of tutorials online on how to properly put on these masks.
Also let's be real--I see a LOT of cloth masks out there with gaps as big as surgical ones.
edit--sorry, did not scroll up far enough and missed the top half of your comment!
posted by Anonymous at 10:43 AM on November 2, 2021
KN95/KF94 masks are supposed to be sealed to your face. If you have large gaps then you are wearing it improperly or need to find a better fitting brand. There are lots of tutorials online on how to properly put on these masks.
Also let's be real--I see a LOT of cloth masks out there with gaps as big as surgical ones.
edit--sorry, did not scroll up far enough and missed the top half of your comment!
posted by Anonymous at 10:43 AM on November 2, 2021
So I have a small-ish nose and a sort of a short, heart-shaped-ish face and have had an extremely hard time finding a maske that didn't ride all the way up and irritate my lower eyelids (which is a problem because I wear contacts). I've been wearing KN95s exclusively since winter 2020. I have a couple of favorite companies (I like the HUHETA a lot). My favorites are probably MASKCs because they are easy on my face (a bunch of KN95s cause me to break out), and smooth on the inside. They are also not too big. The downside is that they are a total luxury for me because they are stupid expensive (because they are billed as "fashion" KN95s). I basically buy them whenever they go on half price sale and save them for occasions when I need to be masked for hours and hours at a time.
posted by thivaia at 10:53 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 10:53 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Hahaha Givewell there's a blast from the past
posted by anazgnos at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by anazgnos at 10:59 AM on November 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
The data show that even after 10 washes, surgical masks filter
Am I thinking of a different type of surgical mask? I was assuming the blue paper-like material masks were strictly one-use disposable.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:08 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Am I thinking of a different type of surgical mask? I was assuming the blue paper-like material masks were strictly one-use disposable.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:08 AM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Surgical masks and N95/KN95/FFP2 are officially single use only because we don't have a standard test that simulates what re-use looks like, and cannot be applicable to everyone in the population, in all situations. Note that good surgical masks, the ones that are certified to ASTM levels, are generally made of the same materials (meltblown) as an N95 - they are just lacking the structure and tension to seal them against the face.
People exhale varying amounts of moisture, and breathe at differing rates which can damage the filtering material in the mask, or clog it up with the particulate matter. On bigger heads, the straps may stretch to a degree where it is no longer adequately pressing against the face after a single use. Face sweat and oils can damage the mask too. It's possible that a previously used mask may drop in filtration from 95% to 94%, or it may fall to 90%, just depending on the user. All the regulatory standards are written in a way so that an N95 must always filter at least 95% of particulate matter when worn, otherwise it is allowing an unacceptable amount to flow through to the user, and thus is dangerous.
We have never cared about mask reuse before. N95s have only been around for 25 years, and this is the first pandemic where we've tried to make the general population wear masks. Which is also why there is no child N95 standard.
posted by meowzilla at 11:32 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
People exhale varying amounts of moisture, and breathe at differing rates which can damage the filtering material in the mask, or clog it up with the particulate matter. On bigger heads, the straps may stretch to a degree where it is no longer adequately pressing against the face after a single use. Face sweat and oils can damage the mask too. It's possible that a previously used mask may drop in filtration from 95% to 94%, or it may fall to 90%, just depending on the user. All the regulatory standards are written in a way so that an N95 must always filter at least 95% of particulate matter when worn, otherwise it is allowing an unacceptable amount to flow through to the user, and thus is dangerous.
We have never cared about mask reuse before. N95s have only been around for 25 years, and this is the first pandemic where we've tried to make the general population wear masks. Which is also why there is no child N95 standard.
posted by meowzilla at 11:32 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
So I have a small-ish nose and a sort of a short, heart-shaped-ish face and have had an extremely hard time finding a maske that didn't ride all the way up and irritate my lower eyelids (which is a problem because I wear contacts).
Yeah my face is small enough that most of the time my eye doc recommends child-size glasses, but I can never actually take them up on that because my nose is huge, so the child glasses won't fit over the bridge. And my head is flat, but my ears are small. I look a lot like Ringo Starr if he were half-size and a middle-aged woman. Plus as an indoor exerciser the occasions when I have to be masked for hours at a time but also breathing comfortably are...every day.
The cloth masks with filters work exceptionally well with these constraints; the loops adjust without snapping (a problem on EVERY surgical mask I've tried--love to throw out four masks in a row!), the seam placement allows for my giant honker nose without leaving a deep groove in it OR tugging the sides away, and because they stretch over my chin the fit is excellent. They don't even fog my glasses. And while it's desperately hot and uncomfortable I can still essentially breathe. They're not inexpensive but the replaceable filters do extend the life a bit.
TL;DR I only want to abandon a thing that is working very well if it is absolutely certain that I am doing MORE harm with that than with a thing that works extremely less well on all metrics. But possibly there is just no way to know that now or ever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:35 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yeah my face is small enough that most of the time my eye doc recommends child-size glasses, but I can never actually take them up on that because my nose is huge, so the child glasses won't fit over the bridge. And my head is flat, but my ears are small. I look a lot like Ringo Starr if he were half-size and a middle-aged woman. Plus as an indoor exerciser the occasions when I have to be masked for hours at a time but also breathing comfortably are...every day.
The cloth masks with filters work exceptionally well with these constraints; the loops adjust without snapping (a problem on EVERY surgical mask I've tried--love to throw out four masks in a row!), the seam placement allows for my giant honker nose without leaving a deep groove in it OR tugging the sides away, and because they stretch over my chin the fit is excellent. They don't even fog my glasses. And while it's desperately hot and uncomfortable I can still essentially breathe. They're not inexpensive but the replaceable filters do extend the life a bit.
TL;DR I only want to abandon a thing that is working very well if it is absolutely certain that I am doing MORE harm with that than with a thing that works extremely less well on all metrics. But possibly there is just no way to know that now or ever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:35 AM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
“Should Masking Last Beyond The Pandemic? Flu And Colds Are Down, Spurring A Debate”—Blake Farmer, NPR Morning Edition, 30 March 2021
A study released this month in the Journal of Hospital Medicine, led by researchers from Vanderbilt University Medical Center, found that across 44 children's hospitals, the number of pediatric patients hospitalized for respiratory illnesses is down 62%. Deaths have dropped dramatically too, compared with the last 10 years: The number of flu deaths among children is usually between 100 and 200 per year, but so far only one child has died from the disease in the U.S. during the 2020-2021 flu season. [Emphasis added. I'd make it blink too if I could.]posted by ob1quixote at 11:46 AM on November 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
Adults aren't getting sick either. U.S. flu deaths this season will be measured in the hundreds instead of thousands. During the 2018-2019 flu season, which experienced a moderate level of flu activity, an estimated 34,200 Americans died.
Doesn't this imply that cloth masks should be banned in favor of surgical masks?
We've been in a pandemic since early 2020, and there have been on-and-off mask mandates where I live since I believe June of that year. And yet, people are still, in late 2021, wearing a cowboy bandana loosely tied around your head, hanging freely in front of your mouth. (Doing so is not "recommended" by the state, but you see it all the time still.) The chances of them banning cloth masks here is close to zero in my estimation, since for many people a cloth mask would be an upgrade.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
We've been in a pandemic since early 2020, and there have been on-and-off mask mandates where I live since I believe June of that year. And yet, people are still, in late 2021, wearing a cowboy bandana loosely tied around your head, hanging freely in front of your mouth. (Doing so is not "recommended" by the state, but you see it all the time still.) The chances of them banning cloth masks here is close to zero in my estimation, since for many people a cloth mask would be an upgrade.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Dip Flash: I work at a COVID testing site and a startling number of patients come in with bandanas or other mask-shaped objects. To a place where you have to figure at least one of the people near you is sick with something.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:16 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:16 PM on November 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
In early 2021 a CDC study found that double-masking (specifically wearing a cloth mask over a surgical mask) was substantially better than just wearing either a cloth mask or a surgical mask, both for protecting yourself and for reducing spread. That's what I'd be doing if I didn't have access to KN95 masks.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 12:22 PM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 12:22 PM on November 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Sniped by Gerald Bostock, but for the people who worry about surgical masks fitting poorly, the CDC study linked above specifically looked at double masking (and tying a knot in the ear loops) as a way to improve fit. My impression is that double masking is effective mostly to the degree that it improves the fit of a medical grade mask. Two loose masks, or a close fitting non-medical mask would not be very effective, but a cloth mask or a neck gaiter as a tool to improve the fit of a medical grade mask seems to be a good idea. That's what I've been using this year.
posted by Spiegel at 12:46 PM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Spiegel at 12:46 PM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Airgami masks. If you want both good filtering and good airflow. They're really great.
posted by medusa at 1:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by medusa at 1:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Reading these sort of articles is so frustrating when it's hard to find something that fits. As far as I know, there are no surgical masks without ear loops. My ears were not built to tolerate ear loops at all, and I don't have the patience to futz around with ear loop extenders. I use N95s for medical appointments and other things where I'll be sitting around indoors a lot, and am considering just switching to N95s for picking up the mail or my takeout dinner or whatever.
posted by creepygirl at 3:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by creepygirl at 3:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Reading these sort of articles is so frustrating when it's hard to find something that fits.
Yeah, that's where I am- solidarity with you and Blast Hardcheese. I am a pretty small adult woman and the surgical masks just gap and are terrible no matter how much I fuss/knot with the loops. I am using tightly-woven double-layer cloth masks with filters that fit snugly and are comfortable enough to teach in all day. I hope those + being vaxxed and boosted is enough. I have tried 4-5 different N-95s and K-N95s and haven't been able to get a decent fit on those in either adult or kid sizes. Maybe my face is weird? Maybe I haven't tried enough options?
posted by charmedimsure at 3:59 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's where I am- solidarity with you and Blast Hardcheese. I am a pretty small adult woman and the surgical masks just gap and are terrible no matter how much I fuss/knot with the loops. I am using tightly-woven double-layer cloth masks with filters that fit snugly and are comfortable enough to teach in all day. I hope those + being vaxxed and boosted is enough. I have tried 4-5 different N-95s and K-N95s and haven't been able to get a decent fit on those in either adult or kid sizes. Maybe my face is weird? Maybe I haven't tried enough options?
posted by charmedimsure at 3:59 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
"I'm sure it's mostly liability avoision in everybody signaling protection with a light blue face square"surgical over KN95 is to filter the latter's open exhale vent
speaking of filtering, that's my general appreciation of masking up. Filtering a bit what I breathe in and filtering more what I breathe out.
While AFAIK we don't have any actual science on this yet, I remember reading somewhere that masks help reduce the viral dosing present in our exhalations.
Why this is a f---ing issue almost 2 years into the pandemic is a real disappointment. I know exactly why we're having this fight, and man it sucks.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:09 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Why this is a f---ing issue almost 2 years into the pandemic is a real disappointment.
Seriously this!!
I've got a fairly large head, and a beard, so none of the N95/KN95/whatevers will work for me because they can't seal around my face (and usually tent to slip up over my chin, as well). I've spent a lot of time over the past 18 months trying to research the best way for me to effectively mask up. I'm reasonably intelligent but I'm not a scientist, and clear recommendations backed up by good data is really hard to find.
I ended up going with an XL cloth mask that covers the bridge of my nose down to where my jaw meets my neck, and all the way across to both ears, and has a filter pocket that pretty much covers the entire area of the mask (i.e. not just a square in the middle); I cut some of this stuff to fit and replace it every couple of weeks.
Is it really very effective? I honestly don't know. I mean, it seems like covering the entire bottom half of my face with 2 tight-fitting cotton layers plus the 3-layer filter would be pretty effective, but who the hell knows if I'm better or worse off that if I wore a poorly-sealed N95 mask? I've been low-key worried about it this entire time, because bless you all, I want to reduce the risk of my fellow human beings; but quite frankly I'm more concerned about protecting myself! (note that I do practice social distancing and I mask when outside my home, I haven't been in a restaurant or movie theater or bar or any damn where else in a year and a half and it's getting bloody tiresome)
None of the studies or recommendations I've found online really seem to address those sorts of questions, or at least not in terms a layman like me can understand. It's so frustrating.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Seriously this!!
I've got a fairly large head, and a beard, so none of the N95/KN95/whatevers will work for me because they can't seal around my face (and usually tent to slip up over my chin, as well). I've spent a lot of time over the past 18 months trying to research the best way for me to effectively mask up. I'm reasonably intelligent but I'm not a scientist, and clear recommendations backed up by good data is really hard to find.
I ended up going with an XL cloth mask that covers the bridge of my nose down to where my jaw meets my neck, and all the way across to both ears, and has a filter pocket that pretty much covers the entire area of the mask (i.e. not just a square in the middle); I cut some of this stuff to fit and replace it every couple of weeks.
Is it really very effective? I honestly don't know. I mean, it seems like covering the entire bottom half of my face with 2 tight-fitting cotton layers plus the 3-layer filter would be pretty effective, but who the hell knows if I'm better or worse off that if I wore a poorly-sealed N95 mask? I've been low-key worried about it this entire time, because bless you all, I want to reduce the risk of my fellow human beings; but quite frankly I'm more concerned about protecting myself! (note that I do practice social distancing and I mask when outside my home, I haven't been in a restaurant or movie theater or bar or any damn where else in a year and a half and it's getting bloody tiresome)
None of the studies or recommendations I've found online really seem to address those sorts of questions, or at least not in terms a layman like me can understand. It's so frustrating.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:00 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
(and usually tent to slip up over my chin, as well)
*unexpectedly appropriate typo...
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:08 PM on November 2, 2021
*unexpectedly appropriate typo...
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:08 PM on November 2, 2021
surgical over KN95 is to filter the latter's open exhale vent
Uh, anything sold as a KN95 shouldn’t have a filter valve, no?
posted by eviemath at 5:22 PM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Uh, anything sold as a KN95 shouldn’t have a filter valve, no?
posted by eviemath at 5:22 PM on November 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm still sort of confused by the study and its implications.
It shows 9% less symptomatic COVID cases in villages where (up to) 42% of people wore masks?
Separately, they determined that cloth masks are less effective, but how? Are they just running the filtration numbers against the symptomatic case numbers?
posted by chaz at 5:33 PM on November 2, 2021
It shows 9% less symptomatic COVID cases in villages where (up to) 42% of people wore masks?
Separately, they determined that cloth masks are less effective, but how? Are they just running the filtration numbers against the symptomatic case numbers?
posted by chaz at 5:33 PM on November 2, 2021
Any data on "typical use" rather than ideal use? 90% of my daily interactions are with dicknosers, usually in a small windowless room with little to no ventilation.
posted by basalganglia at 5:34 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by basalganglia at 5:34 PM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Valves have nothing to do with a mask's certification. They may have them, they might not, it's irrelevant to the spec.
Having a beard introduces a gap in the seal, so if you want that 95% number you'll have to shave.
posted by meowzilla at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2021
Having a beard introduces a gap in the seal, so if you want that 95% number you'll have to shave.
posted by meowzilla at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2021
I haven't seen KN95 masks with valves, but 3M does make N95 masks with outlet valves. While they filter what comes in, per specification, they do not offer much protection to others around you. If you are asymptomatic or otherwise infected, you will be breathing out virus particles into the air around you.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:01 PM on November 2, 2021
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:01 PM on November 2, 2021
Is it really very effective? I honestly don't know. I mean, it seems like covering the entire bottom half of my face with 2 tight-fitting cotton layers plus the 3-layer filter would be pretty effective, but who the hell knows if I'm better or worse off that if I wore a poorly-sealed N95 mask?
There's no way to know without you actually doing a test that actually measures the filtration of the mask on your face, since no one ever tested your mask (especially since you've added the filtration material yourself), as well as the exact fit of the mask on your face. The company that made the mask probably didn't have the tools to test the mask when they made it, nor do they know how a year's worth of washing will do to it. The most they can provide is how the elements of the mask can filter individually, which is like saying you know how fast a car can go by looking only at the engine and the tires.
Tools that measure the exact filtration ability of a mask on your face exist and have for years; they're just very expensive and not readily available to the general public.
Aaron Collins is an engineer who happens to have one of these measurement tools; his job is related to air filtration in general. He's actually been testing various masks for the past year on his own face on YouTube and seeing what actually works, starting with KF94s. Keep in mind that he's testing at a standard that is close to the N95 standard, likely to be overkill for aerosol droplets that would contain the virus.
some cloth mask tests here, including one with a sewn-in filter (Vogmask) as well as a separate filter (Halo Mask)
double masking
mask fitters with surgical masks
kids masks
how long can you wear a mask?
He's just testing against his own face, so it's impossible to think that you'll get the same results. But it gives some idea of what to expect.
He's compiled all his data in a big spreadsheet here: Master mask testing
posted by meowzilla at 6:34 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's no way to know without you actually doing a test that actually measures the filtration of the mask on your face, since no one ever tested your mask (especially since you've added the filtration material yourself), as well as the exact fit of the mask on your face. The company that made the mask probably didn't have the tools to test the mask when they made it, nor do they know how a year's worth of washing will do to it. The most they can provide is how the elements of the mask can filter individually, which is like saying you know how fast a car can go by looking only at the engine and the tires.
Tools that measure the exact filtration ability of a mask on your face exist and have for years; they're just very expensive and not readily available to the general public.
Aaron Collins is an engineer who happens to have one of these measurement tools; his job is related to air filtration in general. He's actually been testing various masks for the past year on his own face on YouTube and seeing what actually works, starting with KF94s. Keep in mind that he's testing at a standard that is close to the N95 standard, likely to be overkill for aerosol droplets that would contain the virus.
some cloth mask tests here, including one with a sewn-in filter (Vogmask) as well as a separate filter (Halo Mask)
double masking
mask fitters with surgical masks
kids masks
how long can you wear a mask?
He's just testing against his own face, so it's impossible to think that you'll get the same results. But it gives some idea of what to expect.
He's compiled all his data in a big spreadsheet here: Master mask testing
posted by meowzilla at 6:34 PM on November 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Small-facers, I recommend checking out some of the KF94s available from behealthyusa.net. They have a mix & match pack where you can pick 10 individual masks. They all come individually wrapped.
The ones that fit my small, narrow face the best without having to knot the ear loops are the KOREA-MASK KF94 Medium- White (3D) ones. They're currently out of stock, but I just ordered some less than a month ago.
The BOTN KF94 medium size is also meant for smaller faced adults and teens and has adjustable ear loops.
I like both of the above because they don't get sucked in against your face when you breathe, as some softer masks do. BLUNA Facefit masks also have this quality, and I like those a lot too.
The POSH ones don't quite fit me - the larges are a little too big, and the small is sized more for a young child than a petite adult.
For reference, I've tried Powecom KN95s (both ear loop and the headband style) and I hate them; they dig into my lower eyelids, and air shoots out the top of them into my eyes. I wear child-sized surgical masks when I'm not wearing the KF94s that fit me.
posted by bananana at 7:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
The ones that fit my small, narrow face the best without having to knot the ear loops are the KOREA-MASK KF94 Medium- White (3D) ones. They're currently out of stock, but I just ordered some less than a month ago.
The BOTN KF94 medium size is also meant for smaller faced adults and teens and has adjustable ear loops.
I like both of the above because they don't get sucked in against your face when you breathe, as some softer masks do. BLUNA Facefit masks also have this quality, and I like those a lot too.
The POSH ones don't quite fit me - the larges are a little too big, and the small is sized more for a young child than a petite adult.
For reference, I've tried Powecom KN95s (both ear loop and the headband style) and I hate them; they dig into my lower eyelids, and air shoots out the top of them into my eyes. I wear child-sized surgical masks when I'm not wearing the KF94s that fit me.
posted by bananana at 7:19 PM on November 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I double mask with KN95's and cloth. I don't keep ear loops on my ears well either so the double masking is keeping it all on pretty tight. I tie a crochet cord from ear to ear behind my head and pull it back. It actually works better if I have mask elastic/the cord about 3/4 of the way up my head rather than right around the ears. Means I have to wear my hair in a pandemic ponytail every day to anchor the whole apparatus on, but it doesn't come off easily.
I think we already have enough problems getting people to wear masks without "banning" cloth ones. Frankly, cloth ones are better than nothing (or gaiters) and we got a lot of people with nothing, and also there's cost factor if you are disposing of or losing the fancier ones daily.
it's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting everyone else from you and keeping your germs to yourself. I guess that kind of messaging doesn't sell the idea as well, maybe?
I don't think a lot of people give a shit about protecting others. Telling people "wear a mask to save others, but it won't save you at all" is extremely bad messaging even if it was true. Which thanks to this study, isn't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on November 2, 2021
I think we already have enough problems getting people to wear masks without "banning" cloth ones. Frankly, cloth ones are better than nothing (or gaiters) and we got a lot of people with nothing, and also there's cost factor if you are disposing of or losing the fancier ones daily.
it's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting everyone else from you and keeping your germs to yourself. I guess that kind of messaging doesn't sell the idea as well, maybe?
I don't think a lot of people give a shit about protecting others. Telling people "wear a mask to save others, but it won't save you at all" is extremely bad messaging even if it was true. Which thanks to this study, isn't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on November 2, 2021
Yeah my takeaway from this (amazing) study is not about some masks being bad. It's that masks are good and effective! All masks reduce disease severity especially in the highest risk people. And surgical masks are especially good, and additionally reduce seropositivity rates!
posted by latkes at 9:06 PM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by latkes at 9:06 PM on November 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't think a lot of people give a shit about protecting others. Telling people "wear a mask to save others, but it won't save you at all" is extremely bad messaging even if it was true. Which thanks to this study, isn't.
Again, the study doesn’t say anything about individual risk or benefit from mask wearing. So that’s not an entirely accurate conclusion either, except/inasmuch as that the study shows that having a higher rate of overall mask wearing in a population protects everybody, and everybody includes the individual “you”, so individual risk is lowered with higher population rates of mask wearing.
posted by eviemath at 3:10 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Again, the study doesn’t say anything about individual risk or benefit from mask wearing. So that’s not an entirely accurate conclusion either, except/inasmuch as that the study shows that having a higher rate of overall mask wearing in a population protects everybody, and everybody includes the individual “you”, so individual risk is lowered with higher population rates of mask wearing.
posted by eviemath at 3:10 AM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
My wife is tiny and has a tiny head and her solution for the first half of the pandemic was custom made cloth masks with filter inserts but now, since delta, she uses kids sized KF94s. They are the ones with the folds at the top and bottom. They allow a more snug fit for her than the KN95s that I wear (I have huge head, huge nose and a big beard and they work well enough for me). The key trick with her masks is that she uses little rubber beads that let her adjust the tension on the ear loop elastic so her mask stays tight (Amazon link to similar).
posted by srboisvert at 4:51 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by srboisvert at 4:51 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
So I'm confused. Does the study, in fact, say anything about a mask's ability to control transmission in the general population (as opposed to individual protection, which I think many people already knew was a side benefit and not a primary reason to wear a cloth mask)? Because it kind of seems like maybe it does, if the prevalence of COVID is lower as the percentage of mask wearers goes up, but we also have comments above saying the study doesn't actually answer this question at all.
The premise of the article, saying that mask-haters cite the lack of randomized clinical trials but hey now we have one, doesn't seem to quite bear out if it doesn't actually cover a mask's ability to limit transmission as well as its ability to limit infection.
posted by chrominance at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2021
The premise of the article, saying that mask-haters cite the lack of randomized clinical trials but hey now we have one, doesn't seem to quite bear out if it doesn't actually cover a mask's ability to limit transmission as well as its ability to limit infection.
posted by chrominance at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2021
I don't think this study says much about the wider world at all. I agree with that girl. It only speaks about the masks in the study.
It sounds like the study shows that the filtration efficiency of the masks they distributed was only 37%, which is a much different claim than "Any cloth mask has a filtration efficiency of only 37%"
posted by that girl
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2021
It sounds like the study shows that the filtration efficiency of the masks they distributed was only 37%, which is a much different claim than "Any cloth mask has a filtration efficiency of only 37%"
posted by that girl
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2021
People have also been posting other studies about mask efficiency, so different folks in the thread may be taking about different studies? I’m talking about the Nature article in the main fpp link, which summarizes the Givewell study (second fpp link) in my comments.
posted by eviemath at 11:12 AM on November 3, 2021
posted by eviemath at 11:12 AM on November 3, 2021
My understanding of the study is that they went to a collection of villages in Bangladesh, and did one of three things: 1) Gave out surgical masks and encouraged mask-wearing, 2) Gave out cloth masks (with a measured filtration efficiency of 37%) and encouraged mask-wearing, or 3) Made no intervention whatsoever.
Even with the encouragement of mask wearing, the average compliance was less than 50%.
They then went around and collected (voluntary) blood samples to get comparative rates of COVID-19 seroprevalence in the different villages. They found that the surgical mask villages had the lowest seroprevalence rates, followed by the cloth mask areas, followed by the no-intervention areas.
The problems I see with the reporting vs the actual paper is that the reporting tends to conflate "the masks used in this study" with "any cloth mask anywhere".
The report itself does imply that higher mask compliance even with a suboptimal type of mask reduces seroprevalence, so that's great!
posted by that girl at 4:37 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Even with the encouragement of mask wearing, the average compliance was less than 50%.
They then went around and collected (voluntary) blood samples to get comparative rates of COVID-19 seroprevalence in the different villages. They found that the surgical mask villages had the lowest seroprevalence rates, followed by the cloth mask areas, followed by the no-intervention areas.
The problems I see with the reporting vs the actual paper is that the reporting tends to conflate "the masks used in this study" with "any cloth mask anywhere".
The report itself does imply that higher mask compliance even with a suboptimal type of mask reduces seroprevalence, so that's great!
posted by that girl at 4:37 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think the real conclusion in the report is that surgical masks are an effective and cheap way to decrease the spread of COVID-19 at community scale.
So if you are running the government in a place that can't get vaccines distributed, if you can distribute surgical masks and get people to wear them more often, it will help measurably reduce the spread of COVID-19 in your country.
posted by that girl at 4:52 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
So if you are running the government in a place that can't get vaccines distributed, if you can distribute surgical masks and get people to wear them more often, it will help measurably reduce the spread of COVID-19 in your country.
posted by that girl at 4:52 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
At the onset of the pandemic, I was wearing a cloth mask with a pocket into which I’d put a coffee filter and experimented with double-sides tape, which worked to a point, and I’d get foggy glasses. N95 and/or N95+cloth over it, same fogged up glasses.
Since I bought a mask fitter (Fix the Mask), I can wear any of these (except the N95 that I haven’t yet tried it with) and not have my glasses fog up. I just need to ensure that the mask is large enough to cover from my nose to under my chin. It’s been a game-changer. The mask changes, depending on where I’m wearing it, but they all fit securely with no gaps with the fitter.
I can roll up a surgical mask and slide it into a toothbrush case, or fold up a cloth mask and stick it into a flat, sealable silicone snack bag.
posted by SillyShepherd at 7:23 PM on November 3, 2021
Since I bought a mask fitter (Fix the Mask), I can wear any of these (except the N95 that I haven’t yet tried it with) and not have my glasses fog up. I just need to ensure that the mask is large enough to cover from my nose to under my chin. It’s been a game-changer. The mask changes, depending on where I’m wearing it, but they all fit securely with no gaps with the fitter.
I can roll up a surgical mask and slide it into a toothbrush case, or fold up a cloth mask and stick it into a flat, sealable silicone snack bag.
posted by SillyShepherd at 7:23 PM on November 3, 2021
They're not likely to do you much good that way, dude...
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:50 PM on November 3, 2021
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:50 PM on November 3, 2021
haphazard masking in a highly vax'd community is like taking off shoes at airports. mostly performative, with a miniscule chance that the requirement might save a life.
posted by wibari at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2021
posted by wibari at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2021
How are your masks so expensive? I get a box of 50 surgical masks for like $3-$4 in various sizes. Patterns are a bit pricier, and cloth masks are from $3-$15 max.
People with ear loop issues, google for "hijabi mask" + extenders. They're sold pretty widely here and they turn the mask into a comfortable fit around your head. Other friends use the silicon mask brackets to make the surgical mask curve out and fit round your face better, and pretty much everyone who goes out regularly has a mask box to hold the stuff.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
People with ear loop issues, google for "hijabi mask" + extenders. They're sold pretty widely here and they turn the mask into a comfortable fit around your head. Other friends use the silicon mask brackets to make the surgical mask curve out and fit round your face better, and pretty much everyone who goes out regularly has a mask box to hold the stuff.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:01 PM on November 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I see them as a way to slow velocity. Air travels out slower, so less chances of the particles reaching you if you are a few feet away
posted by kylesk at 9:04 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by kylesk at 9:04 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
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posted by skewed at 8:52 AM on November 2, 2021 [1 favorite]