The 10,000 Year Clock
April 14, 2009 9:55 AM Subscribe
While I appreciate the artistic value of small depth-of-field photographs, it is really annoying when trying to understand the workings of this machine.
posted by ChrisHartley at 10:03 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by ChrisHartley at 10:03 AM on April 14, 2009
I'd seen pictures of what I thought was it before, but I guess they were just prototypes. I didn't realize they planned to make it so large.
posted by delmoi at 10:04 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by delmoi at 10:04 AM on April 14, 2009
This is the coolest fucking thing anyone's doing anywhere.
posted by Mr. Anthropomorphism at 10:05 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr. Anthropomorphism at 10:05 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
Fantastic, thanks. I knew of the clock and as an archaeologist I'm a big fan of the Long Now project, but I hadn't seen such great pictures of it before.
posted by Rumple at 10:07 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by Rumple at 10:07 AM on April 14, 2009
No wifi. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
posted by GuyZero at 10:13 AM on April 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 10:13 AM on April 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
My first thought was of this Arthur Ganson kinetic sculpture: "...it will take well over two trillion years before the final gear makes but one turn. Given the truth of this situation, it is possible to do anything at all with the final gear, even embed it in concrete."
posted by not_on_display at 10:18 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by not_on_display at 10:18 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
When it goes off, do us burgers get to finally learn from the Millenarian Fraas and Suurs?
posted by Mach5 at 10:26 AM on April 14, 2009 [12 favorites]
posted by Mach5 at 10:26 AM on April 14, 2009 [12 favorites]
It's awesome and cool and a really interesting engineering and art project.
But my first thought on looking at the pictures was "This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years."
posted by agentofselection at 10:30 AM on April 14, 2009
But my first thought on looking at the pictures was "This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years."
posted by agentofselection at 10:30 AM on April 14, 2009
agentofselection: "my first thought on looking at the pictures was "This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years.""
IIRC, one of the design criteria was that it not use any materials valuable enough to tempt looters.
What's tungsten going for these days?
posted by Joe Beese at 10:34 AM on April 14, 2009
IIRC, one of the design criteria was that it not use any materials valuable enough to tempt looters.
What's tungsten going for these days?
posted by Joe Beese at 10:34 AM on April 14, 2009
Just started that, Mach5. I'm still not entirely convinced, but this is certainly timely. I was wondering how much of it is inspired by Long Now stuff.
posted by freebird at 10:34 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by freebird at 10:34 AM on April 14, 2009
What happens when dust clogs the works or a big rock falls on it?
posted by Pollomacho at 10:36 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by Pollomacho at 10:36 AM on April 14, 2009
Mach5: As far as I'm concerned, Mefites are nothing but a bunch of slines.
freebird: Anathem is explicitly based on Stephenson's work with the Long Now foundation.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:37 AM on April 14, 2009
freebird: Anathem is explicitly based on Stephenson's work with the Long Now foundation.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:37 AM on April 14, 2009
There are schools, farms, and other collectives that were established in medieval times and are still operating largely according to the original intent.
You mean like this collective?
posted by Pollomacho at 10:45 AM on April 14, 2009
You mean like this collective?
posted by Pollomacho at 10:45 AM on April 14, 2009
A stop clock is right 7,300,000 times in 10,000 years. Who needs more precision than that?
posted by blue_beetle at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by blue_beetle at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2009
stopped
posted by blue_beetle at 11:18 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by blue_beetle at 11:18 AM on April 14, 2009
...it is really annoying when trying to understand the workings of this machine.
Sadly, LongNow is really missing this boat. I'm interested in the entire project, but what drew me in were the mechanical details. But finding those details is a real chore, because they are more interested in superficial nonsense photos. In an organization that claims to want to preserve human knowledge beyond contemporary fads, the irony is thick.
To find out how the actual "mechanical binary computer" part works, I even went so far as to download the patent and spend a couple days poring over it. I think it's possible to figure it out from there, but not in the time I allotted to it.
What happens when dust clogs the works or a big rock falls on it?
Oh crap, they totally didn't even consider the problem of how to keep their 10,000 clock running for 10,000 years!
posted by DU at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2009
Sadly, LongNow is really missing this boat. I'm interested in the entire project, but what drew me in were the mechanical details. But finding those details is a real chore, because they are more interested in superficial nonsense photos. In an organization that claims to want to preserve human knowledge beyond contemporary fads, the irony is thick.
To find out how the actual "mechanical binary computer" part works, I even went so far as to download the patent and spend a couple days poring over it. I think it's possible to figure it out from there, but not in the time I allotted to it.
What happens when dust clogs the works or a big rock falls on it?
Oh crap, they totally didn't even consider the problem of how to keep their 10,000 clock running for 10,000 years!
posted by DU at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2009
Oh and another mechanical detail I can't find an answer to is this guy.
One of the design criteria is that even Dark Ages civilizations can manufacture replacement parts. That means no ultra-precision gears or the like. Except they have this equation of time cam at the heart of the machine. Who is (re)discovering and calculating that equation and machining the cam?
posted by DU at 11:22 AM on April 14, 2009
One of the design criteria is that even Dark Ages civilizations can manufacture replacement parts. That means no ultra-precision gears or the like. Except they have this equation of time cam at the heart of the machine. Who is (re)discovering and calculating that equation and machining the cam?
posted by DU at 11:22 AM on April 14, 2009
CBS Sunday Morning had a segment on the clock last month.
posted by ericb at 11:30 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by ericb at 11:30 AM on April 14, 2009
Brian Eno has done some Bell Studies for the Clock of the Long Now.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2009
The Equation of Time Cam is very sculptural, and all the more beautiful because of what it means. I'll second DU on the plea for more mechanical details, though. I have an idea how it might work, but I'm no engineer, so I'm probably way off base.
posted by echo target at 11:46 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by echo target at 11:46 AM on April 14, 2009
Scuba divers found a large, mechanical clock that appears to come from the early twenty first century. The divers were exploring the ruins created by "The Big One," the monumental earthquake that devastated the California coastline of what was then the United States.
Archaeologists have not yet determined who made this clock or why. "It appears to have been created to measure centuries, if not millennia. We are not sure who would need to measure this kind of time in the 21st Century. Our first thoughts are that it is a scientific novelty, but it may have also belonged to a religious cult obsessed with the end times. As you know access to digital records from that era is spotty due to electro-magnetic pulses released during the Sino-Indian and other wars. It may simply remain a mystery from an earlier era."
posted by Any Moose In a Storm at 11:49 AM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]
Archaeologists have not yet determined who made this clock or why. "It appears to have been created to measure centuries, if not millennia. We are not sure who would need to measure this kind of time in the 21st Century. Our first thoughts are that it is a scientific novelty, but it may have also belonged to a religious cult obsessed with the end times. As you know access to digital records from that era is spotty due to electro-magnetic pulses released during the Sino-Indian and other wars. It may simply remain a mystery from an earlier era."
posted by Any Moose In a Storm at 11:49 AM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]
my first thought on looking at the pictures was "This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years."
The Coliseum, and those other Roman ruins? First any marble plating was removed, and all those holes you see pock-marking every landmark? That's where the iron brackets were taken by invaders to make swords, knives, and horse bits.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
The Coliseum, and those other Roman ruins? First any marble plating was removed, and all those holes you see pock-marking every landmark? That's where the iron brackets were taken by invaders to make swords, knives, and horse bits.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
The divers were exploring the ruins created by "The Big One," the monumental earthquake that devastated the California coastline of what was then the United States.
Heckuva quake
posted by DU at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2009
Heckuva quake
posted by DU at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2009
Joe Beese wrote @ 10:34 AM on April 14 :
agentofselection:my first thought on looking at the pictures was 'This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years.'
"IIRC, one of the design criteria was that it not use any materials valuable enough to tempt looters.
"What's tungsten going for these days?"
Joe: Tungsten scrap goes for about $4.50 per pound. If you're buying the finished product, it's a bit more — $10 to $30 per pound. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any metal, so forming the pure metal is very difficult. Usually they use 1% to 5% iron/nickel to bind it.
About 5 years ago, I purchased a 10 pound cylindrical chunk of 96% tungsten (66mm diameter x 68mm tall). It's so dense that most people think there's a magnet under the table holding it down.
posted by Araucaria at 12:15 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
agentofselection:my first thought on looking at the pictures was 'This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years.'
"IIRC, one of the design criteria was that it not use any materials valuable enough to tempt looters.
"What's tungsten going for these days?"
Joe: Tungsten scrap goes for about $4.50 per pound. If you're buying the finished product, it's a bit more — $10 to $30 per pound. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any metal, so forming the pure metal is very difficult. Usually they use 1% to 5% iron/nickel to bind it.
About 5 years ago, I purchased a 10 pound cylindrical chunk of 96% tungsten (66mm diameter x 68mm tall). It's so dense that most people think there's a magnet under the table holding it down.
posted by Araucaria at 12:15 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
The tungsten pendulum balls look like they might have been made by this place.
posted by Araucaria at 12:20 PM on April 14, 2009
posted by Araucaria at 12:20 PM on April 14, 2009
I have such a love for the long now foundation and the clock in particular. I voraciously read everything I can find about it, and now I'm going to have to go dig up the patent that DU mentioned. Thanks DU.
To those who are questioning the looting problem, I think it's important to recognize that the Long Now foundation doesn't intend the clock to run autonomously for 10,000 years, they're quite explicit that it will require human care (ie - it needs to be "wound" every so often to keep going, by human power). Once you have humans there winding it, I'm guessing looting is a (somewhat) smaller problem.
posted by Inkoate at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2009
To those who are questioning the looting problem, I think it's important to recognize that the Long Now foundation doesn't intend the clock to run autonomously for 10,000 years, they're quite explicit that it will require human care (ie - it needs to be "wound" every so often to keep going, by human power). Once you have humans there winding it, I'm guessing looting is a (somewhat) smaller problem.
posted by Inkoate at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2009
my first thought on looking at the pictures was "This will be stripped for scrap metal in 100 years."
Yeah, remember how they tore down the Eiffel tower after a hundred years for scrap?
posted by delmoi at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah, remember how they tore down the Eiffel tower after a hundred years for scrap?
posted by delmoi at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Tungsten has almost exactly the same density as gold. Platinum is higher, but uranium is lower.
posted by delmoi at 12:28 PM on April 14, 2009
posted by delmoi at 12:28 PM on April 14, 2009
people will come in and take shiny parts for souvenirs since there's no staff to guard it
The design already requires occasional human maintenance -- they could have built a 10,000-year atomic clock that operates in the total absence of humans, but then only advanced civilizations would be able to understand and maintain it, so they went lower-tech. I'm not sure, personally, that this was such a great idea but hey it's their clock.
Consequently, I expect they're assuming that some level of continuous presence will be maintained.
I think they should plan for a combination of ascetic monastery & lighthouse keeper, rotating guard duties. Something along the lines of the Meteora monasteries, more or less. Hard to get to, easy to defend, no real reason to go there.
posted by aramaic at 1:06 PM on April 14, 2009
The design already requires occasional human maintenance -- they could have built a 10,000-year atomic clock that operates in the total absence of humans, but then only advanced civilizations would be able to understand and maintain it, so they went lower-tech. I'm not sure, personally, that this was such a great idea but hey it's their clock.
Consequently, I expect they're assuming that some level of continuous presence will be maintained.
I think they should plan for a combination of ascetic monastery & lighthouse keeper, rotating guard duties. Something along the lines of the Meteora monasteries, more or less. Hard to get to, easy to defend, no real reason to go there.
posted by aramaic at 1:06 PM on April 14, 2009
Tungsten has almost exactly the same density as gold. Platinum is higher, but uranium is lower.
More notably, tungsten is the densest metal that is relatively inexpensive. It's nearly twice as dense as lead.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:09 PM on April 14, 2009
More notably, tungsten is the densest metal that is relatively inexpensive. It's nearly twice as dense as lead.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:09 PM on April 14, 2009
Uh, no. I was referring to something like what Khwaja Ahrar set up.
You mean communities of both clergy and laymen established by pre-rennaisance religious figures who took Sufi philosophy and applied it to collective living, poetic and artistic endevors, and mystical religious study featuring sacrifice of selfish gain for the common salvation of mankind? Yeah, that has nothing to do what Francis was into.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:24 PM on April 14, 2009
You mean communities of both clergy and laymen established by pre-rennaisance religious figures who took Sufi philosophy and applied it to collective living, poetic and artistic endevors, and mystical religious study featuring sacrifice of selfish gain for the common salvation of mankind? Yeah, that has nothing to do what Francis was into.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:24 PM on April 14, 2009
I truly love the concept and the execution; the more shiny gears something has, the more my magpie soul craves it.
But one has to consider the possibility that in the future, "What time is it" will be a simple enough answer; it's whatever time the guy sitting on the throne of skulls in what used to be Times Square says it is.
posted by quin at 3:12 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
But one has to consider the possibility that in the future, "What time is it" will be a simple enough answer; it's whatever time the guy sitting on the throne of skulls in what used to be Times Square says it is.
posted by quin at 3:12 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
How much funding does a largely-maintenance-free clock need, anyway? It's not like it needs painting every 10 years. Assuming civilization doesn't collapse, it just becomes more and more of a tourist destination. And if civilization does collapse, "funding" isn't available anyway, plus the 5 Inner Monks can start a small farm.
posted by DU at 5:13 PM on April 14, 2009
posted by DU at 5:13 PM on April 14, 2009
What might be more feasible to posit is that the Long Now's funding will run out or be subverted, and people will come in and take shiny parts for souvenirs since there's no staff to guard it rather than it being a worthwhile target of commodity looters.
I think that is why they picked a very low population location, in the interior of an immense mountain with an approach that requires climbing up a seemingly-sheer 600ft cliff face.
The TED video 5imian linked describes how they picked the spot.
posted by danny the boy at 6:30 PM on April 14, 2009
I think that is why they picked a very low population location, in the interior of an immense mountain with an approach that requires climbing up a seemingly-sheer 600ft cliff face.
The TED video 5imian linked describes how they picked the spot.
posted by danny the boy at 6:30 PM on April 14, 2009
But it would be interesting if Eno could establish some kind of new age monastery there.
Wasn't there talk (and a MeFi link) about doing something similar around nuclear waste in Nevada to prevent future people from stumbling upon it thousands of years after the USA has collapsed and disappeared into history?
posted by Pollomacho at 4:13 AM on April 15, 2009
Wasn't there talk (and a MeFi link) about doing something similar around nuclear waste in Nevada to prevent future people from stumbling upon it thousands of years after the USA has collapsed and disappeared into history?
posted by Pollomacho at 4:13 AM on April 15, 2009
Pollomacho: This place is not a place of honor. Metafilter threads: 1 2
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:42 AM on April 15, 2009
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:42 AM on April 15, 2009
Pollomacho: This place is not a place of honor.
Oh man, all the theorizing about "How do we make a sign that will inform people about the danger of this place!?" is really absurd. Don't you think if you came across some ancient ruins covered with various pictograms meant to illustrate death and destruction -- skulls, pictures of people keeling over, etc, don't you think it would make you want to explore it even more?
Furthermore, We still have people who can read Latin. I think the odds of all major languages being wiped out and illegible in 12,000 years are pretty low.
posted by delmoi at 8:36 AM on April 15, 2009
Oh man, all the theorizing about "How do we make a sign that will inform people about the danger of this place!?" is really absurd. Don't you think if you came across some ancient ruins covered with various pictograms meant to illustrate death and destruction -- skulls, pictures of people keeling over, etc, don't you think it would make you want to explore it even more?
Furthermore, We still have people who can read Latin. I think the odds of all major languages being wiped out and illegible in 12,000 years are pretty low.
posted by delmoi at 8:36 AM on April 15, 2009
Yeah, what we really need is a way to make it sound mundanely dangerous, not Sealed Evil in a Can, which is what that proposed message sounds like. I mean, most people today obey "Danger: High Voltage" signs because high voltage is dangerous, but not mysterious. Question is, how do you make radioactivity seem like a mundane danger to a culture that hasn't discovered radioactivity?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:48 AM on April 15, 2009
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:48 AM on April 15, 2009
how do you make radioactivity seem like a mundane danger to a culture that hasn't discovered radioactivity?
That's easy: make the signs/symbols out of materials that are themselves massively radioactive. Once a few people drop dead mere hours after walking past one they'll figure it out. Sure, your signs will kill people, but the remainder of the population will be protected.
See: poison berries, "can I eat this?" and the like.
People have a knack for figuring these things out (and, most importantly, figuring them out over and over again), even if a few poor souls have to die in terrible ways first.
Basically, make your symbol obvious, and massively heavy so it's not easily moved without lots of heavy equipment. Then make it so that anyone touching it or coming near it will die horribly from radiation poisoning within a few hours or days so that the proximate cause is obvious. Erosion (and subsequent poisoning of the local ecosystem) would be a problem, I think, but there are probably ways around that (inert-as-we-can-manage outer casing, hideous radioactive core).
It wouldn't take long for even the most primitive population to realize there's something Bad Nasty about that place, so they'd leave it alone. Yes, Throg and Thrak would die screaming, but the rest of the tribe would be saved.
posted by aramaic at 10:37 AM on April 15, 2009
That's easy: make the signs/symbols out of materials that are themselves massively radioactive. Once a few people drop dead mere hours after walking past one they'll figure it out. Sure, your signs will kill people, but the remainder of the population will be protected.
See: poison berries, "can I eat this?" and the like.
People have a knack for figuring these things out (and, most importantly, figuring them out over and over again), even if a few poor souls have to die in terrible ways first.
Basically, make your symbol obvious, and massively heavy so it's not easily moved without lots of heavy equipment. Then make it so that anyone touching it or coming near it will die horribly from radiation poisoning within a few hours or days so that the proximate cause is obvious. Erosion (and subsequent poisoning of the local ecosystem) would be a problem, I think, but there are probably ways around that (inert-as-we-can-manage outer casing, hideous radioactive core).
It wouldn't take long for even the most primitive population to realize there's something Bad Nasty about that place, so they'd leave it alone. Yes, Throg and Thrak would die screaming, but the rest of the tribe would be saved.
posted by aramaic at 10:37 AM on April 15, 2009
I'm not sure a place that kills with no visible method of causing damage constitutes "mundanely dangerous." Sure, you might learn quickly to stay 100 feet away at all times, but aren't you still going to be intensely curious? The point of making it appear mundanely dangerous is to quash natural curiosity, and I don't think that method succeeds.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:37 AM on April 15, 2009
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:37 AM on April 15, 2009
Eh, does that really matter though? If anyone walking within 100ft dies horribly, people will still stay away, and they'll be prevented from removing materials which will kill many more people much more slowly.
...and hey, maybe it'll drive them back up the technology chain.
"OK, so using a wooden shield didn't save Bob. Well, what about metal?"
"Which metal?"
"Hmm, good point...."
posted by aramaic at 11:51 AM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
...and hey, maybe it'll drive them back up the technology chain.
"OK, so using a wooden shield didn't save Bob. Well, what about metal?"
"Which metal?"
"Hmm, good point...."
posted by aramaic at 11:51 AM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
World's most accurate clock unveiled: Perfect timekeeping has taken a step closer to reality after scientists developed a clock that loses just a second every 300 million years.
posted by homunculus at 6:12 PM on April 16, 2009
posted by homunculus at 6:12 PM on April 16, 2009
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posted by homunculus at 9:57 AM on April 14, 2009