London's 2020 Tube trains unveiled
May 21, 2016 4:13 PM Subscribe
London takes stock for the New Tube. Revealed after three years of design work, here are the deep tube trains Londoners will be riding until the middle of the century. Although the designers are being coy over full automation - a politically sensitive area - with features like active displays replacing the internal advertising and route signage, the removal of internal car divisions, and new door designs for swifter passenger movements, the constraints of the capital's venerable tunnels and stations are being pushed as far as possible. Bonus info in article: what unique features China and New Zealand demand for their next-gen trains
Trains need security guards more than they need drivers. Spend your money wisely.
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:32 PM on May 21, 2016
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:32 PM on May 21, 2016
Pretty. And not currently on fire.
posted by evilDoug at 4:48 PM on May 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 4:48 PM on May 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trains need security guards more than they need drivers.
Seriously, if Disney can engineer the stop-start-variable-speed-even-go-backward movements of the driverless cars of the Indiana Jones ride so it runs mostly well much of the time, then urban engineers could easily create trains that basically drive themselves with diminishing rates of failure.
posted by hippybear at 4:49 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seriously, if Disney can engineer the stop-start-variable-speed-even-go-backward movements of the driverless cars of the Indiana Jones ride so it runs mostly well much of the time, then urban engineers could easily create trains that basically drive themselves with diminishing rates of failure.
posted by hippybear at 4:49 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seriously, if Disney can engineer the stop-start-variable-speed-even-go-backward movements of the driverless cars of the Indiana Jones ride so it runs mostly well much of the time, then urban engineers could easily create trains that basically drive themselves with diminishing rates of failure.
Indiana Jones runs in one direction at a max speed of 14 miles an hour. The ride never actually goes backwards even in the running away from the boulder (it's actually the walls that move). Tube trains run in both directions maxing out at 30-40mph on the track between stations.
posted by Talez at 5:00 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Indiana Jones runs in one direction at a max speed of 14 miles an hour. The ride never actually goes backwards even in the running away from the boulder (it's actually the walls that move). Tube trains run in both directions maxing out at 30-40mph on the track between stations.
posted by Talez at 5:00 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
London already has one driverless mass transit system - the Docklands Light Railway, or DLR - that was built in the 1980s out of 68k processors and VAXes, and the Victoria Line was designed in the 1960s to be fully automated with relay logic. The DLR has 45 stations and carries over 100 million passengers per year: it's practically a small city metro network in itself.
The reason the Victoria Line still has drivers (who do practically nothing except open and close the doors, much as the Jubilee Line drivers do) is the drivers' union, which is very powerful. I am deeply conflicted by this, as I thoroughly enjoy having a public sector transport executive such as Transport for London which is conspicuously successful, and which has a high-wage, unionised workforce who can and do exert considerable influence. But they're not necessary, and the geek in me thinks they should be doing something more useful.
posted by Devonian at 5:06 PM on May 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
The reason the Victoria Line still has drivers (who do practically nothing except open and close the doors, much as the Jubilee Line drivers do) is the drivers' union, which is very powerful. I am deeply conflicted by this, as I thoroughly enjoy having a public sector transport executive such as Transport for London which is conspicuously successful, and which has a high-wage, unionised workforce who can and do exert considerable influence. But they're not necessary, and the geek in me thinks they should be doing something more useful.
posted by Devonian at 5:06 PM on May 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
The article's from 2014, and the subject was probably better covered in London Reconnections:
Visually speaking, it is certainly a striking design – one that seems to meld the almost other-worldly concept design put together for TfL by Siemens some years back (when the NTfL concept was still being referred to as the “Evo”) with the colours and curves to be found in the newer rolling stock designs already to be found elsewhere on the network.
As far as driverlessness is concerned, it's covered by London Reconnections, but partly as follows: As was previously confirmed, the NTfL will be future-proofed for full unmanned Automatic Train Operation (ATO) but not run with it out-of-the-box. In its most obvious dimension, this means that whilst it will feature a full drivers cab, the units will be designed in such a way as to allow this to be removed in future should they no longer be required. We will discuss just what automation means and when (if ever) it is likely to happen later.
There's plenty of detail in the article.
posted by ambrosen at 5:07 PM on May 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Visually speaking, it is certainly a striking design – one that seems to meld the almost other-worldly concept design put together for TfL by Siemens some years back (when the NTfL concept was still being referred to as the “Evo”) with the colours and curves to be found in the newer rolling stock designs already to be found elsewhere on the network.
As far as driverlessness is concerned, it's covered by London Reconnections, but partly as follows: As was previously confirmed, the NTfL will be future-proofed for full unmanned Automatic Train Operation (ATO) but not run with it out-of-the-box. In its most obvious dimension, this means that whilst it will feature a full drivers cab, the units will be designed in such a way as to allow this to be removed in future should they no longer be required. We will discuss just what automation means and when (if ever) it is likely to happen later.
There's plenty of detail in the article.
posted by ambrosen at 5:07 PM on May 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Other than the absence of car transitions, this is very like the Denver airport subway. No operators, glass divisions between track and platform.
posted by beagle at 5:14 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by beagle at 5:14 PM on May 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Apologies - I didn't spot this was two years old. Thanks for the update, Ambrosen.
posted by Devonian at 5:24 PM on May 21, 2016
posted by Devonian at 5:24 PM on May 21, 2016
Anna Winston: And that's a finite length?I believe that the reason the trains are of a finite length is because the universe is not of infinite size.[citation needed]
Paul Priestman: It is yes because of the existing stations of course.
posted by autopilot at 7:40 PM on May 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Oh, yeah- those don't at all look like something that might become sentient in an episode of Doctor Who.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:44 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:44 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Down the rabbit hole I go - spaceports, driverless taxis and fast planes, oh my! Don't feel bad, Devonian.
I wonder where in New Zealand the demand for surfboard storage on trains outweighs the demand for bikes.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 8:42 PM on May 21, 2016
I wonder where in New Zealand the demand for surfboard storage on trains outweighs the demand for bikes.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 8:42 PM on May 21, 2016
“These things are not really going to go into service until 2020, and will run for another 30 or 40 years after that.”
When I was a kid in the 60s I remember there were plenty of 1938 trains still running (they had the date on the bronze door plates), though I think they were all gone by the early 70s, so a 30 year life would be par for the course. The biggest change noticeable to me when they replaced those trains was the move from incandescent to fluorescent lighting (I’m sure there were plenty of other more subtle changes), but I suspect designing to accommodate future automation and system upgrades is a much harder problem.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:20 PM on May 21, 2016
When I was a kid in the 60s I remember there were plenty of 1938 trains still running (they had the date on the bronze door plates), though I think they were all gone by the early 70s, so a 30 year life would be par for the course. The biggest change noticeable to me when they replaced those trains was the move from incandescent to fluorescent lighting (I’m sure there were plenty of other more subtle changes), but I suspect designing to accommodate future automation and system upgrades is a much harder problem.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:20 PM on May 21, 2016
The 1938 Stock was in service in London until 1988 and several of them still run the entire service on the Isle of Wight. So the number you're looking for is 78 years and counting.
posted by grahamparks at 11:42 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by grahamparks at 11:42 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Quinbus Flestrin:I suspect designing to accommodate future automation and system upgrades is a much harder problem
I suspect not. In fact I suspect that any attempt to do so will be essentially redundant. I remember not long ago when there was a great deal of angst about how we would ever afford the infrastructure upgrades necessary to accommodate the automated transport systems of the 21st century but now it turns out that such systems are just exploiting the existing infrastructure, even sharing it with older systems, and already there is talk of retro-fitting existing domestic vehicles with the necessary technology. The rate of technological development is so fast, and the changes so great, that the requirements for integration are both impossible to predict and easily included in those developments.
The 20Mb broadband I use to send this comment is delivered over the exact same copper pair that not so long ago struggled to deliver a crackly 3Kb voice connection; nobody saw that coming as they dug up the ground to put fibre everywhere. Now we invest billions in upgrading our rail infrastructure to support marginally faster trains. I suspect they could well be rendered obsolete before the infrastructure upgrade is complete.
posted by merlynkline at 1:46 AM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect not. In fact I suspect that any attempt to do so will be essentially redundant. I remember not long ago when there was a great deal of angst about how we would ever afford the infrastructure upgrades necessary to accommodate the automated transport systems of the 21st century but now it turns out that such systems are just exploiting the existing infrastructure, even sharing it with older systems, and already there is talk of retro-fitting existing domestic vehicles with the necessary technology. The rate of technological development is so fast, and the changes so great, that the requirements for integration are both impossible to predict and easily included in those developments.
The 20Mb broadband I use to send this comment is delivered over the exact same copper pair that not so long ago struggled to deliver a crackly 3Kb voice connection; nobody saw that coming as they dug up the ground to put fibre everywhere. Now we invest billions in upgrading our rail infrastructure to support marginally faster trains. I suspect they could well be rendered obsolete before the infrastructure upgrade is complete.
posted by merlynkline at 1:46 AM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing caught my interest: cloth covered seats. I thought most PT systems were phasing cloth seats out? Maybe it's just where I live. After a couple of months in service, cloth seats look disgusting and are a nightmare to clean.
posted by james33 at 4:10 AM on May 22, 2016
posted by james33 at 4:10 AM on May 22, 2016
Transport for London is rather proud of its seat fabrics, which last for years and are kept very presentable in service.
posted by Devonian at 6:23 AM on May 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 6:23 AM on May 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm just glad they're air conditioned. The tube is an absolute goddamned misery in the summer.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:46 AM on May 22, 2016
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:46 AM on May 22, 2016
The interview somewhat glosses over how exactly they plan for the air conditioning to work though, citing reduced energy use overall.
posted by lucidium at 9:25 AM on May 22, 2016
posted by lucidium at 9:25 AM on May 22, 2016
Those interiors are beautiful.
And per TFA, not air conditioning, just cooling. The second article linked goes into great detail about how it works.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on May 22, 2016
And per TFA, not air conditioning, just cooling. The second article linked goes into great detail about how it works.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on May 22, 2016
Just also to rehash from the London Reconnections article, the big problem with driverless trains is that they need platform edge doors in order to run in that mode.
This might sound simple, but some stations (eg Bank) have extremely curved platforms where the engineering of this is difficult, to say the least. Also, more problematically, very few lines have their own tracks- the Piccadilly for example shares tracks with two different sub surface lines which run trains of a completely different size. LR discusses the possibility of the Piccadilly taking over one if these- the District line into Ealing Broadway, but for the Uxbridge branch the working plan is to have a driver get on board for the share stretch. So getting rid of the cabin might never happen.
Seriously, LR is a joy where facts reign supreme. And the new printed magazine is well worth the subscription.
posted by welovelife at 11:39 AM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
This might sound simple, but some stations (eg Bank) have extremely curved platforms where the engineering of this is difficult, to say the least. Also, more problematically, very few lines have their own tracks- the Piccadilly for example shares tracks with two different sub surface lines which run trains of a completely different size. LR discusses the possibility of the Piccadilly taking over one if these- the District line into Ealing Broadway, but for the Uxbridge branch the working plan is to have a driver get on board for the share stretch. So getting rid of the cabin might never happen.
Seriously, LR is a joy where facts reign supreme. And the new printed magazine is well worth the subscription.
posted by welovelife at 11:39 AM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, I didn't see ambrosen's link. The first article called it air conditioning.
posted by lucidium at 1:20 PM on May 22, 2016
posted by lucidium at 1:20 PM on May 22, 2016
I should know better than to write anything about any form train without looking up the details first because someone always knows the specifics and will embarrass you. Still, even if I was entirely wrong about their final retirement, my memory wasn’t totally faulty:
And I suppose, with sufficient refurbishment, most problems of accommodating future improvements go away if the basic technology is sound, a fact that I was erroneously discounting. You can retrofit fluorescent lighting, and now LED, change seating and add new controls etc., without huge difficulty; changing location of the doors (one of the features of the proposed new stock), or halving the weight of the cars would have been a different proposition.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 1:35 PM on May 22, 2016
"Throughout the 1950s and 1960s the Northern line was worked exclusively by 1938/1949 Stock trains. They were starting to show their age by the late 1960s; the first withdrawals from the Northern line took place in the early 1970s with the introduction of the 1972 Stock trains.”My experience was with the Northern line where they really did go away in the 70s, even if it was to be refurbished and mostly used elsewhere.
And I suppose, with sufficient refurbishment, most problems of accommodating future improvements go away if the basic technology is sound, a fact that I was erroneously discounting. You can retrofit fluorescent lighting, and now LED, change seating and add new controls etc., without huge difficulty; changing location of the doors (one of the features of the proposed new stock), or halving the weight of the cars would have been a different proposition.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 1:35 PM on May 22, 2016
I should know better than to write anything about any form train without looking up the details first because someone always knows the specifics and will embarrass you.
If it makes you feel any better I wrote the second article that ambrosen linked to, and I still spend most of my life being embarrassed by people who know far more than I do!
Most of the pertinent bits from my LR piece on "driverless" have been quoted here already and welovelife succinctly nails the core bit: this is one of those areas where "common sense" and "but surely it'd be easy to..." are always used but are entirely wrong. There are a whole host of perfectly reasonable, if inconvenient, facts that mean the Underground will never operate unattended trains. They just happen to be things that non-transport people don't really know or think about.
And "unattended" is really what most people think when they think "driverless" - because by any other definition half of the network is driverless already anyway, or as good as.
But without platform edge doors (PEDs) everywhere, which is impossible - not impractical - impossible as long as the Underground has lines with different rolling stock sharing stations (Which will happen for at least the next 50 years) for the simple reason that their doors are in different places, or curved platforms (which would require billions of pounds to change) then trains will always be attended. They'll move to a "train captain" model at some point, the same as the DLR, which is why the cabs on the NTfL will be removable. But that'll be it.
And that's fine really. Because there are far bigger challenges to solve on the Underground than getting people out of train cabs. And frankly there's just no decent transport reason for doing so anyway. The Victoria Line is already running at 36 trains-per-hour (tph) making it one of the most frequent metros in the world and the Northern and Jubilee aren't far behind. And once you hit that point you're pretty much at the theoretical service limit anyway, because your problems stop being how quickly you can move trains along the line and start being how quickly you can get people off trains and platforms - and that's a whole different and more complex challenge.
Basically the only people who push for "Driverless trains" are politicians or media types who see it as a magical solution to strikes or strong unions. But seeing it as a such requires a mental slight-of-hand that ignores the difference between "driverless" and "unattended" mentioned above, and completely ignores the very obvious elephant in the room which is that the "driverless" DLR is brought to a halt just as quickly by a train captain strike as the Underground is by a driver strike.
Those interiors are beautiful.
That they are. Looking back at the announcement now, it was also effectively the first sight we got of TfL's new Design Idiom in action. They're doubling down on design in the coming decade or so, having realised that they've been living on past glories for far too long (the typeface, the roundel etc.) and, from top-to-bottom, having decided it's about bloody time they started making making people sit up and notice them again.
What that translates to in reality is some seriously interesting ideas on station design and lighting complemented by some complimentary, more modern, design on Crossrail / Elizabeth.
We're about to start doing LR podcasts, and I'm hopefully we can persuade the LU and Crossrail design geeks to come on and talk about all of the above as it's seriously fascinating stuff.
Seriously, LR is a joy where facts reign supreme. And the new printed magazine is well worth the subscription.
Comments like that are the reason we keep writing it. Thank you. Glad you're enjoying the magazine as well - I am, quite literally, sitting here editing the last few articles for Issue 4 right now. Here's a sneak preview of the cover.
posted by garius at 3:25 PM on May 22, 2016 [10 favorites]
If it makes you feel any better I wrote the second article that ambrosen linked to, and I still spend most of my life being embarrassed by people who know far more than I do!
Most of the pertinent bits from my LR piece on "driverless" have been quoted here already and welovelife succinctly nails the core bit: this is one of those areas where "common sense" and "but surely it'd be easy to..." are always used but are entirely wrong. There are a whole host of perfectly reasonable, if inconvenient, facts that mean the Underground will never operate unattended trains. They just happen to be things that non-transport people don't really know or think about.
And "unattended" is really what most people think when they think "driverless" - because by any other definition half of the network is driverless already anyway, or as good as.
But without platform edge doors (PEDs) everywhere, which is impossible - not impractical - impossible as long as the Underground has lines with different rolling stock sharing stations (Which will happen for at least the next 50 years) for the simple reason that their doors are in different places, or curved platforms (which would require billions of pounds to change) then trains will always be attended. They'll move to a "train captain" model at some point, the same as the DLR, which is why the cabs on the NTfL will be removable. But that'll be it.
And that's fine really. Because there are far bigger challenges to solve on the Underground than getting people out of train cabs. And frankly there's just no decent transport reason for doing so anyway. The Victoria Line is already running at 36 trains-per-hour (tph) making it one of the most frequent metros in the world and the Northern and Jubilee aren't far behind. And once you hit that point you're pretty much at the theoretical service limit anyway, because your problems stop being how quickly you can move trains along the line and start being how quickly you can get people off trains and platforms - and that's a whole different and more complex challenge.
Basically the only people who push for "Driverless trains" are politicians or media types who see it as a magical solution to strikes or strong unions. But seeing it as a such requires a mental slight-of-hand that ignores the difference between "driverless" and "unattended" mentioned above, and completely ignores the very obvious elephant in the room which is that the "driverless" DLR is brought to a halt just as quickly by a train captain strike as the Underground is by a driver strike.
Those interiors are beautiful.
That they are. Looking back at the announcement now, it was also effectively the first sight we got of TfL's new Design Idiom in action. They're doubling down on design in the coming decade or so, having realised that they've been living on past glories for far too long (the typeface, the roundel etc.) and, from top-to-bottom, having decided it's about bloody time they started making making people sit up and notice them again.
What that translates to in reality is some seriously interesting ideas on station design and lighting complemented by some complimentary, more modern, design on Crossrail / Elizabeth.
We're about to start doing LR podcasts, and I'm hopefully we can persuade the LU and Crossrail design geeks to come on and talk about all of the above as it's seriously fascinating stuff.
Seriously, LR is a joy where facts reign supreme. And the new printed magazine is well worth the subscription.
Comments like that are the reason we keep writing it. Thank you. Glad you're enjoying the magazine as well - I am, quite literally, sitting here editing the last few articles for Issue 4 right now. Here's a sneak preview of the cover.
posted by garius at 3:25 PM on May 22, 2016 [10 favorites]
Those stations are beautiful. All related, but with individual character. I'm going to start reading the actual Design Idiom document now, but one thing that struck me, just from looking at the drawings, was that after the first couple of pictures, you could see exactly how to get to the trains, straight lines turning into tubes. I wish the TTC could get on board with this sort of thing (I wish we'd give them the money), because while they did start harmonizing signage a while back, it isn't the best, and it's sort of smooshed on everywhere, and for some bloody stupid reason they renamed the lines to 1, 2, and 3, which was like trying to rename SkyDome. There's no coherent design language anywhere in the stations, and those built more recently only cohere in that "hideously ugly and rarely designed for any kind of functionality" kind of way, and ugh. I see what TfL can devote time to, and it makes me want to spit and/or cry.
That they have the freedom to do this sort of thing is incredible. And to take such care (at least I got that impression from the articles) to spell out that they're not dictating what any future station should look like, just a framework that makes sure you ask the right questions. I'm so looking forward to reading this. And so cool that you're here!
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2016
That they have the freedom to do this sort of thing is incredible. And to take such care (at least I got that impression from the articles) to spell out that they're not dictating what any future station should look like, just a framework that makes sure you ask the right questions. I'm so looking forward to reading this. And so cool that you're here!
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2016
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posted by T.D. Strange at 4:16 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]