“If you went in the room when it was switched on, you’d burn directly,”

March 23, 2017 7:31 AM

German scientists are switching on “the world’s largest artificial sun” in the hope that intense light sources can be used to generate climate-friendly fuel. [The Guardian] “The Synlight experiment in Jülich, about 19 miles west of Cologne, consists 149 souped-up film projector spotlights and produces light about 10,000 times the intensity of natural sunlight on Earth. When all the lamps are swivelled to concentrate light on a single spot, the instrument can generate temperatures of around 3,500C – around two to three times the temperature of a blast furnace.”
posted by Fizz (36 comments total)

Otherwise known as August in Sacramento
posted by GuyZero at 7:34 AM on March 23, 2017 [12 favorites]

I don't think these guys understand thermodynamics. I wonder how many times more CO2-based fuel it requires to power those lamps than they get out in product. How is this different from a perpetual-motion machine?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:35 AM on March 23, 2017 [4 favorites]

This feels like something a villain from a James Bond film would try to do, only not for science, but for world domination.
posted by Fizz at 7:38 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

> I don't think these guys understand physics. I wonder how many times more CO2-full fuel it requires to power those lamps.

The aim of the experiment is to come up with the optimal setup for concentrating natural sunlight to power a reaction to produce hydrogen fuel.

the goal isn't to turn on a bunch of lamps to make fuel. It's to turn on a bunch of lamps to make it REALLY REALLY BRIGHT AND HOT and figure out if that's helpful in making fuel, and if so how best to arrange mirrors to reflect sunlight to get that brightness and heat.
posted by Old Kentucky Shark at 7:40 AM on March 23, 2017 [49 favorites]

Yes, TFA explains this is an experiment of the setup to generate a fuel, and is testing the combining sources part, not the actual source. If this is successful, TFA explains, the next goal would be to add a carbon-neutral source.

In other words they are testing a variation of the solar collector/mirror concept that is already in use today.
posted by Doleful Creature at 7:45 AM on March 23, 2017 [8 favorites]

How is this different from a perpetual-motion machine?

Well, nothing moves. So it's more of a perpetual light machine.
posted by Naberius at 7:53 AM on March 23, 2017 [8 favorites]

Somewhere George Hamilton is packing his reflector and booking a flight.
posted by jonmc at 8:03 AM on March 23, 2017 [10 favorites]

I don't think these guys understand physics. I wonder how many times more CO2-full fuel it requires to power those lamps.

If your first thought is that a team of experts doesn't understand high school physics, your second thought should be that you must have misunderstood what was said.

The problem with solar power is that it doesn't work at night. For it to be our main source of power, we would need a way of storing power during the day to use at night, but that's hard to do. This proposal (solar power that produces easily stored high energy density fuel) is very exciting for the future of green power generation.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:10 AM on March 23, 2017 [59 favorites]

The problem with the article is it doesn't say much. It describes an experimental setup, spends one sentence on the goal of the scientists, and skips explaining what phenomenon is being studied completely.
posted by rdr at 8:23 AM on March 23, 2017 [5 favorites]

The curious thing is why they're using lamps if the goal is to use the sun. I figure the concept should be solid enough, unless the method for hydrogen generation is completely novel. I would think the real test would be to assess the feasibility of actual sunlight. TFA says almost nothing in this regard, and reads like useless filler to me.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:32 AM on March 23, 2017

Sounds like a cool idea. I guess you burn some fuel now and then you can mock up carbon-neutral models and even later you can do massive orbital power plants that either do microwave beams back to earth or store huge amounts of liquid fuel for use in things like rocket engines

Seems like it could be a nice precursor technology for space exploration.
posted by vuron at 8:35 AM on March 23, 2017

They gots electric lamps for solar power at night duh.
posted by pashdown at 8:44 AM on March 23, 2017 [2 favorites]

The curious thing is why they're using lamps if the goal is to use the sun. I figure the concept should be solid enough, unless the method for hydrogen generation is completely novel. I would think the real test would be to assess the feasibility of actual sunlight. TFA says almost nothing in this regard, and reads like useless filler to me.

The goal of the experiment is to assess the feasibility and energy efficiency of a hydrogen-collecting process that relies on extreme heat. Yes, they could start with a solar-sourced system, but it's likely prohibitively expensive, especially if the experiment shows the method isn't feasible. This is a (relatively) low cost setup to determine if building the high-cost setup makes sense.
posted by rocket88 at 8:55 AM on March 23, 2017 [6 favorites]

I, for one, feel that we are now finally safe from those giant ants.
posted by lagomorphius at 8:56 AM on March 23, 2017 [13 favorites]

The goal of the experiment is to assess the feasibility and energy efficiency of a hydrogen-collecting process that relies on extreme heat. Yes, they could start with a solar-sourced system, but it's likely prohibitively expensive, especially if the experiment shows the method isn't feasible. This is a (relatively) low cost setup to determine if building the high-cost setup makes sense.

This is the curious part. I would have thought there'd be an even less expensive way to generate extreme heat than to make a giant Easy Bake Oven. If the aim is to generate extreme heat. Perhaps the process relies on more than just the extreme heat generated by a large array of focused light bulbs? But who would know from reading TFA?
posted by 2N2222 at 9:06 AM on March 23, 2017

"No, I dropped my keys in Frankfurt. But the light's better over here."
posted by the sobsister at 9:47 AM on March 23, 2017 [4 favorites]

The curious thing is why they're using lamps if the goal is to use the sun

I gather that they're trying to do controlled tests, so then they can truly tell what they're doing is succeeding or failing because of their science and not environmental variables out of their control.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:50 AM on March 23, 2017 [4 favorites]

Somewhere George Hamilton is packing his reflector and booking a flight.

I come here for the science. I stay for the trenchant social satire.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:02 AM on March 23, 2017 [2 favorites]

This feels like something a villain from a James Bond film would try to do, only not for science, but for world domination.

If it doesn't involve a crazed Teutonic scientist in a double-breasted labcoat, a kaiser mustache, and some really bitchin' goggles, I'll be severely disappointed. (The guy in the picture looks like he just hopped off his bike for a quick espresso on his way to some job that involves social media somehow.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:05 AM on March 23, 2017

If you went in the room when it was switched on, you’d burn directly

yeah but sunglasses tho
posted by beerperson at 10:20 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

Really, anything that doesn't burn you up when you're right there in the same room with it doesn't have any business calling itself an "artificial sun." It would be more like, just, "a bunch of lights."
posted by Naberius at 10:20 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

Don't talk to me or my sun ever again
posted by beerperson at 10:25 AM on March 23, 2017 [7 favorites]

So a moth goes into the German Aerospace Center.

"Come in," says Research Director, Prof. Bernard Hoffschmidt, "What's the problem?"

The moth drops down into the nearest chair and says "What's the problem? I don't even know where to start. First of all, my boss is a vicious tyrant who gets off on the petty torments he puts me through day in and day out, and I'm too spineless to stand up to him, so I just take it and I've gradually come to hate myself for it. Also, every morning I wake up to the same prune-face old crone to whom I pledged my vows so many years ago. I used to love her, but that love has become like some sun-festering beached whale trying to die. We lost our daughter last year to one of the bitterest, coldest winters we've ever had to face in this region. Isn't it funny, doc, how all the prayer circles and charity drives in the world amount to pretty much nothing in the face of that cold, impartial face of winter, that bleak, pounding, harsh fist of a callous environment, carrying on with its machinations without regard to our lives, loves, hopes and dreams? Isn't that hysterical, Doc? Oh and then there's my son. Doc, I don't love him anymore. I don't know what it is but I look in his eyes and I see that same harried look of gutless cowardice that I see when I stare at my own face in the mirror. If I wasn't such a coward, Doc, I know I'd be able to scrape together enough pride to grab that cocked and loaded shotgun I keep by the bedside table, and just run amok and put an end to this grim facade once and for all. I start with the wife, then the boy of course before putting the barrel in my own mouth. Believe you me, Doc, I'd be doing the world a favor. I have nothing to look forward to but a continuation of this spiraling black hole that is my life, this existential cesspool that is the perpetuation of my lingering skid-mark on society. I despise people yet I crave their approval. I'm judgemental yet I care about nothing. I'm bitter, hateful and afraid. I'm alive yet I feel like the walking dead. This is it, Doc: I am a living, breathing, disease."

Prof. Hoffschmidt stares at him for a while then finally says "Jeez, Moth, you definitely have some problems. But we're a research facility searching for the optimal setup for concentrating natural sunlight to produce hydrogen fuel. You need a psychiatrist. Why'd you come in here?"

The moth says,"Your light was on."
posted by Naberius at 10:26 AM on March 23, 2017 [25 favorites]

Naberius: "So it's more of a perpetual light machine."

more of a perpetual light machine
posted by boo_radley at 11:06 AM on March 23, 2017 [3 favorites]

If it doesn't involve a crazed Teutonic scientist in a double-breasted labcoat, a kaiser mustache, and some really bitchin' goggles, I'll be severely disappointed.

No Mr. Bond, I expect you to help facilitate a move to a more sustainable form of energy generation and fuel sequestration.

And then I expect you to die.
posted by GuyZero at 11:16 AM on March 23, 2017 [5 favorites]

Damn it. I was all excited that they'd radically moved up the time frame to light up the Stellarator for real.

This is okay too, I guess.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:42 AM on March 23, 2017

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:51 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

In Germany they have much better and more efficient sunshine.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:51 PM on March 23, 2017

If your first thought is that a team of experts doesn't understand high school physics, your second thought should be that you must have misunderstood what was said.

HEY! That kind of thinking is going to cut internet comments by at least a 20 percent, what ever fills in the stupidity gap will probably be even worse.
posted by Pembquist at 1:00 PM on March 23, 2017 [2 favorites]

If you went in the room when it was switched on, you’d burn directly

Somewhat related, but I'm currently re-reading The Restaurant at the End of the Universe and I'm currently at the part where Disaster Area is playing their Kakrafoon concert. We are told that while the speakers are in the desert, the sound technicians are 600 km above because anyone within a 7 km radius of the speakers wouldn't survive the sound check.

Could we actually be the Belcebron people?
posted by bitteroldman at 1:02 PM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

In Germany they have much better and more efficient sunshine

Ha. I know you're kidding but they seriously don't, in fact it's way too far north for optimal solar collection. Don't be deceived by the moderate climate - Bonn is well north of Prince Edward Island, let alone someplace like Arizona. Pretty much all of the continental US has better insolation than Northern Europe.

It wouldn't matter but back in the 90s Germany was offering significant solar subsidies and back then, panel manufacturing wasn't so far along and so panels were expensive. The German subsidies were so distorting that they drove up the price for everyone else - the market was that supply-limited. I know people who were trying to do solar experiments in Sacramento back then and could barely afford to because of the German subsidies.

So it's nice for the German citizens I guess but I've always wondered how much additional CO2 would have been prevented if all the German panels were installed in like Arizona or Mexico instead.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 1:37 PM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

What I'm seeing is science journalists who are desperate for something interesting to report on. But there isn't anything.

So they pick up on something that's got a lot of concentrated energy, but is the merest beginning of testing something that might work someday.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:42 PM on March 23, 2017

a crazed Teutonic scientist in a double-breasted labcoat, a kaiser mustache, and some really bitchin' goggles
posted by clew at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2017

lagomorphius: "I, for one, feel that we are now finally safe from those giant ants."

As if - you're never going to fit all of those lamps in their sugar mines.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:17 PM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]

In Germany they have much better and more efficient sunshine.

They can do the research with lamps in Germany and build the full scale facility next to this sucker.

The Odeillo solar furnace is the world's largest solar furnace. It is situated in Font-Romeu-Odeillo-Via, in the department of Pyrénées-Orientales, in south of France. It is 54 metres (177 ft) high and 48 metres (157 ft) wide, and includes 63 heliostats. It was built between 1962 and 1968, and started operating in 1970, and has a power of one megawatt.

posted by sebastienbailard at 9:23 PM on March 23, 2017

For those who are interested in taking the project on its merits, rather than assuming they have no idea what they're doing, and that what they do couldn't be relevant because they're German, here's a paper which motivates the project and compares it to other artificial suns [pdf]. It seems the process that they're investigating the feasibility of is hydrogen production through splitting water by thermal decomposition at 3000°C, but they've not published on that yet, because the experiment's not been set up.

Obviously, they're probably already aware that water at 3000°C has decomposed, on account of that being on the Wikipedia page. I guess there are subtleties that maybe they'd want to know more about before committing tens of millions of euros to make it happen in production. For example, how impurities affect things, splitting out the 3 gases (water, oxygen and hydrogen) at that temperature, containing the mixture at a temperature higher than the melting point of any metal, etc.
posted by ambrosen at 4:23 AM on March 25, 2017