Deliverance from 27,000 feet
December 19, 2017 12:14 PM Subscribe
"One climber stepped on the dead man and apologized profusely ... Another paused on his descent to hold a one-sided conversation with the corpse stretched across the route. Who are you? Who left you here? And is anyone coming to take you home?"
Mount Everest is an expensive mountain. It is expensive to climb the mountain, and it is expensive to recover bodies from the mountain. Most summit attempts are made by wealthy Westerners and hired guides. When things go extremely wrong on the mountain, bodies of the dead are frequently left there.
In 2016, four climbers from India attempted to summit Mount Everest. Three of them did not survive. This is the story of their recovery.
Mount Everest is an expensive mountain. It is expensive to climb the mountain, and it is expensive to recover bodies from the mountain. Most summit attempts are made by wealthy Westerners and hired guides. When things go extremely wrong on the mountain, bodies of the dead are frequently left there.
In 2016, four climbers from India attempted to summit Mount Everest. Three of them did not survive. This is the story of their recovery.
"There are practical considerations, including whether to search for the bodies of those presumed missing or dead, if that is even feasible, and whether to recover the body or let it rest eternally where it is. There are emotional considerations, maybe cultural and religious ones, often in the name of closure, which can mean different things to different people. There are the wishes of the deceased, if those were ever communicated." (emphasis mine)You had better bet that were I to attempt to summit Everest I would seriously consider the fact that I might die doing so and I would have made it clear to anyone that mattered exactly what was to be done with my body. It's astounding to me to think that someone who can spend the time and money preparing for this excursion wouldn't take care of that simple provision.
posted by komara at 12:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
I would want to be left there, as long as I wasn't hindering any climbing.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 12:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
Hundreds of people successfully and safely reach the summit most years and return home with inspirational tales of conquest and perseverance.
Surely there are plenty of other ways to experience conquest and perseverance.
I don't think I will ever understand the mindset of those who spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and risk their lives and the Sherpas' lives for an experience that seems to be completely miserable.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [44 favorites]
Surely there are plenty of other ways to experience conquest and perseverance.
I don't think I will ever understand the mindset of those who spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and risk their lives and the Sherpas' lives for an experience that seems to be completely miserable.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:37 PM on December 19, 2017 [44 favorites]
This was a fascinating article. Climbing Everest is often portrayed as a particularly dangerous way for rich people to blow a bunch of money (which I'm compelled to say is a not-inaccurate hot take), so it was surprising to read a story about an ill-fated trip for a group of people who definitely don't fall into that category. The one-handed tailor that sewed backpacks and outdoor gear for years to finance the trip... I mean, with a different ending, that would easily have been the sort of story that people hold up as a heartwarming tale of overcoming the perceived limitations of disability.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by iminurmefi at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2017 [10 favorites]
The word tragedy doesn't seem to fit. I like to save that word for unexpected and unlikely events.
posted by agregoli at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
I don't think I will ever understand the mindset of those who spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and risk their lives and the Sherpas' lives for an experience that seems to be completely miserable.
Ego fulfillment, same with most extreme sports, in my opinion. But, yeah, I thought this aspect of Everest was commonly known, moving around the dead or dying, because they aren't even sure they're going to have enough energy to safely return to camp.
What I'm going to be interested in is how technology is going to change climbing the mountain, never to the point of trivializing, but certainly improving the odds, whether it be drones or robots or goggles that can detect weak points in the ice or meters that can warn of impending avalanche or simply more advanced outwear, but especially drones.
posted by Beholder at 1:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ego fulfillment, same with most extreme sports, in my opinion. But, yeah, I thought this aspect of Everest was commonly known, moving around the dead or dying, because they aren't even sure they're going to have enough energy to safely return to camp.
What I'm going to be interested in is how technology is going to change climbing the mountain, never to the point of trivializing, but certainly improving the odds, whether it be drones or robots or goggles that can detect weak points in the ice or meters that can warn of impending avalanche or simply more advanced outwear, but especially drones.
posted by Beholder at 1:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
As the meme says, every corpse on Mount Everest was once a highly motivated person.
posted by acb at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by acb at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
Or highly moneyed:
How much does it cost to climb Mount Everest?” The short answer is a car or at least $30,000 but most people pay about $45,000 and the price is going up.posted by pracowity at 1:21 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is why I don't have a lot of use for people who have climbed Everest. I'm supposed to be impressed, I gather, but I'm just not. I think it's vaguely pathetic.
I suppose it's possible there's nobody in the world that gives a damn about you, and that seems far more sad than you climbing Everest is impressive.
But more likely, there are people out there who care about you, people for whom your pointless death would create a hole in their lives. And in that case, what the fuck is wrong with you? What makes your need to prove your mountain climbing badassery more important than them? (Especially since mostly what happens is you pay enough money to send a kid through college to a bunch of Sherpas to haul your useless ass up the mountain and back.) Who the hell do you think you are?
There's just no good scenario here.
posted by Naberius at 1:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
I suppose it's possible there's nobody in the world that gives a damn about you, and that seems far more sad than you climbing Everest is impressive.
But more likely, there are people out there who care about you, people for whom your pointless death would create a hole in their lives. And in that case, what the fuck is wrong with you? What makes your need to prove your mountain climbing badassery more important than them? (Especially since mostly what happens is you pay enough money to send a kid through college to a bunch of Sherpas to haul your useless ass up the mountain and back.) Who the hell do you think you are?
There's just no good scenario here.
posted by Naberius at 1:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
but especially drones
It's my understanding that the air is too thin for helicopters. Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
I'm kind of morbidly/angrily fascinated with Everest expeditions and my impression is that many of the deaths are not due to anything better technology would solve. The start of most of the doomed Everest expedition stories I've read is, "They knew it was getting too late to summit, but they tried anyway."
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
It's my understanding that the air is too thin for helicopters. Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
I'm kind of morbidly/angrily fascinated with Everest expeditions and my impression is that many of the deaths are not due to anything better technology would solve. The start of most of the doomed Everest expedition stories I've read is, "They knew it was getting too late to summit, but they tried anyway."
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:25 PM on December 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
Did the lone survivor ever explain why they attempted the summit so late in the day?
posted by linux at 1:28 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by linux at 1:28 PM on December 19, 2017
This is why I don't have a lot of use for people who have climbed Everest.
It's like they're openly and unashamedly telling you they would step over the body of a dying person to get something that has no actual value other than making them feel good about themselves.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [64 favorites]
It's like they're openly and unashamedly telling you they would step over the body of a dying person to get something that has no actual value other than making them feel good about themselves.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [64 favorites]
Surely there are plenty of other ways to experience conquest and perseverance.
OMG I have a huge beef about Everest climbers. I have always felt that for most people who climb Mt Everest in this millennium, it's nothing more than an ego-trip.
This ego trip makes it so sherpas sacrifice their lives and health helping westerners with their indiana jones fantasy. In fact, sherpas carry heavier loads and do the climb with way less fancy equipment than tourist climbers. There are more than two hundred corpses abandoned there.
From what I have read, the climb is not in itself technically harder than other nearby climbs (which require more expertise rather than acclimating to high altitudes), but the fact that it's the *Everest* makes a lot of inexperienced people attempt it. Body recovery missions are expensive and extremely dangerous.
Between that and the trash (and traffic jams!), mount Everest is nothing more than an overly congested tourist attraction with a higher than average death risk and a price tag that depressses local economies and puts poor people at risk.
And for further outrage, here is a woman who didn't even bother to actually complete the climb. She just hired a helicopter so she could get all that sweet Everest status.
Also its actual name is Chomolungma. But we call it Everest because of course the name should go to the first Welshman who mapped it.
posted by Tarumba at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
OMG I have a huge beef about Everest climbers. I have always felt that for most people who climb Mt Everest in this millennium, it's nothing more than an ego-trip.
This ego trip makes it so sherpas sacrifice their lives and health helping westerners with their indiana jones fantasy. In fact, sherpas carry heavier loads and do the climb with way less fancy equipment than tourist climbers. There are more than two hundred corpses abandoned there.
From what I have read, the climb is not in itself technically harder than other nearby climbs (which require more expertise rather than acclimating to high altitudes), but the fact that it's the *Everest* makes a lot of inexperienced people attempt it. Body recovery missions are expensive and extremely dangerous.
Between that and the trash (and traffic jams!), mount Everest is nothing more than an overly congested tourist attraction with a higher than average death risk and a price tag that depressses local economies and puts poor people at risk.
And for further outrage, here is a woman who didn't even bother to actually complete the climb. She just hired a helicopter so she could get all that sweet Everest status.
Also its actual name is Chomolungma. But we call it Everest because of course the name should go to the first Welshman who mapped it.
posted by Tarumba at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [23 favorites]
Yeah the pictures are horrid...but for even more nightmare fuel Google Image: Rainbow Valley (named for all the colorful parkas and tents and such on all the bodies :/)
On the brighter side: eventually all the corpses will make the mountain even taller, right?
posted by sexyrobot at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the brighter side: eventually all the corpses will make the mountain even taller, right?
posted by sexyrobot at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing that makes this a particularly interesting story is that none of the people they focus on in this article fit the narrative of the typical White Western Wealthy Entitled Climber people often gloat about when they die on the mountain. It might be worth engaging with the article a little bit before castigating rich westerners.
posted by ChuraChura at 1:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 1:33 PM on December 19, 2017 [51 favorites]
There are lots of sports that require a lot of money as well as a lot of skill. Car, horse or dog sled racing, Sailing, big game hunting, etc. Everest isn't unique in that respect. But, I'd say it is pretty hard to fake. You gotta climb that mountain.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
linux, I can't help but suspect that the lone survivor isn't answering many questions because it seems likely that she never reached the summit but lied about it.
posted by theatro at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by theatro at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, ChuraChura, I'm getting the sense some people in this thread definitely did not RTFA! The narrative of "rich white Westerner paying $100k to satisfy his ego by having a Sherpa carry him up the mountain" does not fit the article in several ways. It was almost a side note but I thought the reporter did a nice job of talking to some guides--both those who help paying customers summit, and those involved in the corpse-retrieval--about why they did the job, and what alternatives they had. It's actually a nice example of *not* reducing people living in developing countries to flat stereotypes in stories we've already heard a thousand times.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:39 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by iminurmefi at 1:39 PM on December 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
I dunno. I tend to think a lot of the people who attempt Everest do it for the same reason those people make full scale models of the Space Shuttle out of toothpicks, collect every Star Trek item ever made, or take a dump in every state in the USA. It's an obsession. It's something they're driven to do for reasons they probably can't even explain. I'm sure some do it for ego reasons, because they're used to winning things (or having things handed to them) but when you get a guy who is a mailman mortgaging his house to attempt it for the third time it's not ego. It's an obsession. Like Roy Neary in Close Encounters.
People do all sorts of dangerous things. People race cars, ride motorcycles, go skydiving, sit in an office cubicle for 40 years. Lots of things can kill you.
I agree, there are some complex issues about climbing Everest. Personally, I think they should close down the mountain and maybe let 3-4 small teams climb it every year but the locals make a lot of money from it and there's no shortage of people willing to pay, so it's going to continue to be an overcrowded and deadly place.
There's no real good answer. It's there, and people are going to try to climb it. Some of them will die. Let's not pretend to know why they do it.
posted by bondcliff at 1:40 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
People do all sorts of dangerous things. People race cars, ride motorcycles, go skydiving, sit in an office cubicle for 40 years. Lots of things can kill you.
I agree, there are some complex issues about climbing Everest. Personally, I think they should close down the mountain and maybe let 3-4 small teams climb it every year but the locals make a lot of money from it and there's no shortage of people willing to pay, so it's going to continue to be an overcrowded and deadly place.
There's no real good answer. It's there, and people are going to try to climb it. Some of them will die. Let's not pretend to know why they do it.
posted by bondcliff at 1:40 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
The article specifically mentions prestige as a reason the Indian climbers were interested in reaching the summit, and also says [i]f all went well, they would be back at Camp 4 within 24 hours, on their way home to India, where Everest summiters are revered as conquering heroes. “Everesters,” they are called. So at least in this case it seems that these people, none of whom are remotely close to wealthy, and all of whom scrimped and saved for the assent, had more than one reason for the climb. They were all avid climbers and people who might actually benefit - socially, perhaps economically - from having successfully reached the summit.
posted by Cuke at 1:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Cuke at 1:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
but especially drones
It's my understanding that the air is too thin for helicopters. Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
Yeah, drone technology is, I assume, not there yet, but it cant be too far off. I can think of several possible ways a drone could help.
1. Guide lost climbers off the mountain.
2. Deliver oxygen bottles.
3. Find dead bodies.
4. Scout ahead for threats such as cracked ice.
posted by Beholder at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2017
It's my understanding that the air is too thin for helicopters. Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
Yeah, drone technology is, I assume, not there yet, but it cant be too far off. I can think of several possible ways a drone could help.
1. Guide lost climbers off the mountain.
2. Deliver oxygen bottles.
3. Find dead bodies.
4. Scout ahead for threats such as cracked ice.
posted by Beholder at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2017
But more likely, there are people out there who care about you, people for whom your pointless death would create a hole in their lives. And in that case, what the fuck is wrong with you? What makes your need to prove your mountain climbing badassery more important than them? (Especially since mostly what happens is you pay enough money to send a kid through college to a bunch of Sherpas to haul your useless ass up the mountain and back.) Who the hell do you think you are?
People get obsessed and focused on goals and making them happen. What makes a person try to do an Ironman, or run one marathon a day for a year, or go underwater caving, or go BASE jumping, or whatever "crazy" goal you can name? There's a reward that goes with that risk, in the form of ego boost, adrenaline, or who knows what? It's different for each person.
posted by theorique at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2017
People get obsessed and focused on goals and making them happen. What makes a person try to do an Ironman, or run one marathon a day for a year, or go underwater caving, or go BASE jumping, or whatever "crazy" goal you can name? There's a reward that goes with that risk, in the form of ego boost, adrenaline, or who knows what? It's different for each person.
posted by theorique at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2017
"...take a dump in every state in the USA."
Is that a thing? Is there a patch or something, because I'm almost there!
Alaska, here I come!
posted by Floydd at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
Is that a thing? Is there a patch or something, because I'm almost there!
Alaska, here I come!
posted by Floydd at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
It doesn't matter that they weren't the ultra-rich Westerners, to me: they still all were eager to blow what little money they had on a venture that where the chance of death is extremely high and well-known; they knew what they might be doing to their families and they were willinging contributing to further pollution of this site.
I mean, yes, there are lots of things that will kill you, but if you want to crash your racecar or fall out of a plane usually your body is at least easier to recover.
I'm guessing that the response here will follow the similar divide as to, say, the dude who died in the bus in Alaska, where either you support the wild dreamer... or think the sympathy for the knowingly unprepared is overdone.
posted by TwoStride at 1:49 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I mean, yes, there are lots of things that will kill you, but if you want to crash your racecar or fall out of a plane usually your body is at least easier to recover.
I'm guessing that the response here will follow the similar divide as to, say, the dude who died in the bus in Alaska, where either you support the wild dreamer... or think the sympathy for the knowingly unprepared is overdone.
posted by TwoStride at 1:49 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
She believes she would have died, too, if not for Leslie Binns, a British climber who was ascending above Camp 4 when he found her with her mittens off and her jacket unzipped. He gave her a shot of oxygen, which lifted her energy, but soon realized she would not make it to Camp 4 on her own. He aborted his own summit attempt to drag, encourage and cajole her downhill.
These are the only stories about everest that have any meaning or interest to me: the people who decided being human was more important to them.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [71 favorites]
These are the only stories about everest that have any meaning or interest to me: the people who decided being human was more important to them.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:50 PM on December 19, 2017 [71 favorites]
I have RTFA. It's a really good read though I understand if folks don't want to risk having to look at the pictures and video. There are plenty of Everest climbers that aren't Westerners (Chinese and Japanese climbers are frequent summiters) but the reasons they all do it doesn't need to be significantly different, does it? It's a thing that you can do that might kill you but if it doesn't kill you you'll be included in a pretty small class of people.
I think the thing that kind of baffles me about Everest in particular is that for people who are serious mountaineers, it's an endurance climb but it's not a terribly technical climb. I'd think you'd get a lot more of a jolly from accomplishing something that takes a lot of practiced skill. But what do I know? I think the whole thing is bananapants.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think the thing that kind of baffles me about Everest in particular is that for people who are serious mountaineers, it's an endurance climb but it's not a terribly technical climb. I'd think you'd get a lot more of a jolly from accomplishing something that takes a lot of practiced skill. But what do I know? I think the whole thing is bananapants.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
As for more explanation of the "why", the article provides a nice succinct explanation:
posted by theorique at 1:59 PM on December 19, 2017
The four Indian climbers, from a vibrant climbing culture in West Bengal, were like so many others attempting Everest. They saw the mountain as the ultimate conquest, a bucket-list item that would bring personal satisfaction and prestige. They dreamed of it for years and made it the focus of their training. As motivation, they surrounded themselves with photographs of the mountain, from their Facebook pages to the walls of their homes.There you go.
posted by theorique at 1:59 PM on December 19, 2017
Who would like to volunteer to help me with my mission to post a dump to each of the 50 states? Its probably better in climate change terms and you get a free souvenir.
posted by biffa at 2:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 2:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
(I RTFA, I was agreeing with elsietheeel that climbing Mt Everest seems pointless and puts people at risk - I focused on rich travelers because as the article states, the four men on this piece are outliers).
We're talking about four men who decided to cut corners (as per the article) on a trip that would put their lives at risk. Who received help of local government and had "supervision" of people who should have known that they were underqualified and under-equipped, all for the sake of pursuing personal glory. The fact that they are not rich people form a developed country makes this even more tragic because the likely outcomes for their families are not good in a heavily patriarchal society.
Beyond the social dynamics, it's the dangerously ridiculous hype I'm objecting to. Plus it's clear that the bulk of rescue efforts falls on sherpas (contracted through agencies), regardless of whether the original climbers come from the US, China, or India. Even the brother of one of the victims seems to agree when he says he can't believe how much money retrieving the body has cost and when he wonders about the quality of the agency who provided the services in the first place.
posted by Tarumba at 2:10 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
We're talking about four men who decided to cut corners (as per the article) on a trip that would put their lives at risk. Who received help of local government and had "supervision" of people who should have known that they were underqualified and under-equipped, all for the sake of pursuing personal glory. The fact that they are not rich people form a developed country makes this even more tragic because the likely outcomes for their families are not good in a heavily patriarchal society.
Beyond the social dynamics, it's the dangerously ridiculous hype I'm objecting to. Plus it's clear that the bulk of rescue efforts falls on sherpas (contracted through agencies), regardless of whether the original climbers come from the US, China, or India. Even the brother of one of the victims seems to agree when he says he can't believe how much money retrieving the body has cost and when he wonders about the quality of the agency who provided the services in the first place.
posted by Tarumba at 2:10 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
I wonder at what point climate change will make the climb impossible, if ever. Or just render it totally different than it is now wrt safe/well known paths, or climbing on bare rock vs snow/ice. Glacial retreat is already happening at an alarming pace in the Himalaya.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:11 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 2:11 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
These are the only stories about everest that have any meaning or interest to me: the people who decided being human was more important to them.
Or the rage I feel at the people who decided it wasn't. So many are saved by climbers giving up their trip to help that I feel nothing but anger at those who decide the money they spent was more important than someone's literal life.
Climbers are odd ducks. It's a compulsion as much as anything else. I'm climber adjacent (hike and boulder places climbers like to go) but don't have the gene for the actual climbing. One of my good friends is a 68 year old climber who just broke his leg badly falling off a mountain. As soon as he heals, he'll be out there again. It's how he wants to die, I think.
posted by frumiousb at 2:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Or the rage I feel at the people who decided it wasn't. So many are saved by climbers giving up their trip to help that I feel nothing but anger at those who decide the money they spent was more important than someone's literal life.
Climbers are odd ducks. It's a compulsion as much as anything else. I'm climber adjacent (hike and boulder places climbers like to go) but don't have the gene for the actual climbing. One of my good friends is a 68 year old climber who just broke his leg badly falling off a mountain. As soon as he heals, he'll be out there again. It's how he wants to die, I think.
posted by frumiousb at 2:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I wonder at what point climate change will make the climb impossible, if ever. Or just render it totally different than it is now wrt safe/well known paths, or climbing on bare rock vs snow/ice.
I got really interested in Everest for a while and learned a lot about it. It seems to me that the South Col route, that most climbers take, would indeed be very vulnerable to climate change. It begins with the Khumbu Icefall, and if that glacier becomes unstable, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that it would become impassable - either completely so, or just too dangerous.
posted by thelonius at 2:35 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I got really interested in Everest for a while and learned a lot about it. It seems to me that the South Col route, that most climbers take, would indeed be very vulnerable to climate change. It begins with the Khumbu Icefall, and if that glacier becomes unstable, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that it would become impassable - either completely so, or just too dangerous.
posted by thelonius at 2:35 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Like some others in this thread, I too have a morbid fascination with the insanity that is Everest. I've read accounts by many technical climbers who roll their eyes at Everest attempts because the Sherpa porters and climbers do all the hard work of fixing ropes ahead of the climbing season. They are the true mountaineers; almost everyone else is clinging to the fruits of their efforts while hauling oxygen bottles and flags and cameras. And Everest is now a disgusting trash heap, the view spoiled by a conga line of climbers and the garbage and fecal matter left behind by thousands of climbers.
But the madness endures, somehow. The lone survivor of this doomed expedition has been petitioning for a summit certificate, as if it matters. I just can't comprehend it.
posted by xyzzy at 2:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
But the madness endures, somehow. The lone survivor of this doomed expedition has been petitioning for a summit certificate, as if it matters. I just can't comprehend it.
posted by xyzzy at 2:38 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
I wonder at what point climate change will make the climb impossible, if ever. Or just render it totally different than it is now wrt safe/well known paths, or climbing on bare rock vs snow/ice.
You might be interested in this podcast from Alpinist recently about how climate change is affecting climbing. (They have some articles about climate change in the Alps, particularly the Dru in the Mont Blanc massif but they're subscriber only. Outside had an article about it last year as well.
Also, the very famous Hillary Step no longer exists in its old form - either extensively changed or missing entirely -
probably due to the Ghorka earthquake. But as it was regarded as the most technically challenging part of the mountain, its absence will no doubt affect the crowds climbing Everest, though how is still unclear.
posted by barchan at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
You might be interested in this podcast from Alpinist recently about how climate change is affecting climbing. (They have some articles about climate change in the Alps, particularly the Dru in the Mont Blanc massif but they're subscriber only. Outside had an article about it last year as well.
Also, the very famous Hillary Step no longer exists in its old form - either extensively changed or missing entirely -
probably due to the Ghorka earthquake. But as it was regarded as the most technically challenging part of the mountain, its absence will no doubt affect the crowds climbing Everest, though how is still unclear.
posted by barchan at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I trekked in Nepal a long time ago and hiked up to Kala Patthar, which is at 18,500 feet and near Everest Base Camp. We started at sea level and it took us a few weeks to get there, so almost everyone in the group of 12 (not including porters) was pretty well acclimated to altitude by the time we got to 10,000 feet or so, where you can really start to feel it. By “acclimated” I don’t mean the going was easy; one step and a deep breath or two and keep going is what I mean.
There was a 60ish man in our group, in good shape, definitely fit enough for our trek. But he wrenched his ankle very badly when we got to around 10,000 feet, three or four days from our highest campsite, at 16,000 feet, only a few miles from Everest Base Camp. He could have stayed at a village and nursed his ankle while we climbed higher, and we would have caught him on the return. He couldn’t carry his own pack, but someone else carried his essentials for him, and he continued. We got to our high camp and he was disoriented and so sick he couldn’t eat (side effects of altitude sickness). Our trek leader said he should immediately go back down to our last campsite, which was a few thousand feet lower: often going lower has a very quick positive impact and the altitude sickness sufferer feels better. Note that he would have always been accompanied by an able porter on these retreats.
But no, he insisted on continuing, despite putting himself at risk and also using an outsize portion of our group’s emotional (and physical, to a lesser extent) resources.
I don’t recall if he made it to Kala Patthar or not, nad it doesn’t really matter. There was a nice view of Everest from there but there were spectacular views all along. And it was certainly not a climbing achievement of any sort. A tough trek, is all.
But man, was his ego tied up in it.
It’s very hard to survive up that high, and just being up there a few days was pretty brutal: freezing cold, persistent bowling-ball headache, no sleep, little appetite, etc. Nerves get frayed, and cooperation is absolutely necessary. And this was just a tough hike and relatively luxurious camping for a few days! Living for months that high and climbing — I can’t imagine.
He (and we all) made it back safely, even with our flight out of Lukla, one of the most hair-raising airports in the world.
posted by young_simba at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
There was a 60ish man in our group, in good shape, definitely fit enough for our trek. But he wrenched his ankle very badly when we got to around 10,000 feet, three or four days from our highest campsite, at 16,000 feet, only a few miles from Everest Base Camp. He could have stayed at a village and nursed his ankle while we climbed higher, and we would have caught him on the return. He couldn’t carry his own pack, but someone else carried his essentials for him, and he continued. We got to our high camp and he was disoriented and so sick he couldn’t eat (side effects of altitude sickness). Our trek leader said he should immediately go back down to our last campsite, which was a few thousand feet lower: often going lower has a very quick positive impact and the altitude sickness sufferer feels better. Note that he would have always been accompanied by an able porter on these retreats.
But no, he insisted on continuing, despite putting himself at risk and also using an outsize portion of our group’s emotional (and physical, to a lesser extent) resources.
I don’t recall if he made it to Kala Patthar or not, nad it doesn’t really matter. There was a nice view of Everest from there but there were spectacular views all along. And it was certainly not a climbing achievement of any sort. A tough trek, is all.
But man, was his ego tied up in it.
It’s very hard to survive up that high, and just being up there a few days was pretty brutal: freezing cold, persistent bowling-ball headache, no sleep, little appetite, etc. Nerves get frayed, and cooperation is absolutely necessary. And this was just a tough hike and relatively luxurious camping for a few days! Living for months that high and climbing — I can’t imagine.
He (and we all) made it back safely, even with our flight out of Lukla, one of the most hair-raising airports in the world.
posted by young_simba at 2:41 PM on December 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
One the one hand I wouldn’t be put out by the thought of my body staying on the mountain. On the other hand, my corpse is basically trash and you don’t leave trash in a goddamn national park. Chop me up and get my dead ass off the mountain.
posted by um at 2:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by um at 2:43 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
One thing I'd like to gently remind y'all of is that, while I share the puzzlement, and the contempt at those who have trashed up Everest, and the sorrow for these folks' families, is that many if not all of them are not in a good state of mind to be making life or death decisions. Both from lack of oxygen and altitude and from the aforementioned ego trip -- they've spent a TON of money and time and travel, and what's a few hours here or there? It's no surprise at all that many make the wrong decision.
It takes a lot of things going right for someone on the trip of a lifetime (especially like the climbers in the story -- they won't get another chance) to say, you know what, it's too late, we are not going to be able to summit and come back. And you can SEE the summit and see others who summited coming down -- whereas your everyday life is half a planet away.
I greatly respect those who can make that decision, but I have compassion for those who don't and can't possibly be said to be at 100% as far as decision-making capability.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:52 PM on December 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
It takes a lot of things going right for someone on the trip of a lifetime (especially like the climbers in the story -- they won't get another chance) to say, you know what, it's too late, we are not going to be able to summit and come back. And you can SEE the summit and see others who summited coming down -- whereas your everyday life is half a planet away.
I greatly respect those who can make that decision, but I have compassion for those who don't and can't possibly be said to be at 100% as far as decision-making capability.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:52 PM on December 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
I mean, one of the symptoms of HACE is not being able to think clearly. You have to think that is going to affect their ability to meaningfully consent to what's basically Death beckoning.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Pollard and his guide were the first to summit on the morning of May 22, at 2:40 a.m.
I didn't realize the climbers went up so early in the day. 2:40am? Aren't they climbing in the dark at that hour?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on December 19, 2017
I didn't realize the climbers went up so early in the day. 2:40am? Aren't they climbing in the dark at that hour?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on December 19, 2017
I can understand decisions made under extreme pressure when something like your own life or the lives of your family are at risk: mothers who knock down other people in danger to get their own kids to safety, starving people rioting and fighting one another over scarce food, people who panic during an emergency and care more about saving themselves than helping others. Panic is the default human reaction to stress, any ability to remain calm and helpful is learned, and many people do not learn.
I can't understand decisions that are "I spent a lot of money and that's more important than helping someone who will absolutely 100% die without assistance". A lack of oxygen isn't the underlying cause for people who value their money over human life.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:01 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I can't understand decisions that are "I spent a lot of money and that's more important than helping someone who will absolutely 100% die without assistance". A lack of oxygen isn't the underlying cause for people who value their money over human life.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:01 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
But no, he insisted on continuing, despite putting himself at risk and also using an outsize portion of our group’s emotional (and physical, to a lesser extent) resources.
Reading Ed Veisturs' memoir I found that his success and survival were due to his ability to turn around if the conditions and timing weren't good.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Reading Ed Veisturs' memoir I found that his success and survival were due to his ability to turn around if the conditions and timing weren't good.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Aren't they climbing in the dark at that hour?
Darkness probably isn't a major factor, especially if they are following a prepared path that the guides lead you on. My understanding is that the winds pick up in the afternoon and storms are almost a guarantee, and that is way, way worse than climbing in the dark.
posted by linux at 3:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Darkness probably isn't a major factor, especially if they are following a prepared path that the guides lead you on. My understanding is that the winds pick up in the afternoon and storms are almost a guarantee, and that is way, way worse than climbing in the dark.
posted by linux at 3:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I can't understand decisions that are "I spent a lot of money and that's more important than helping someone who will absolutely 100% die without assistance".
Thing is, up there in those conditions, stopping to help can easily go pear-shaped and result in two people who will absolutely 100% die.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Thing is, up there in those conditions, stopping to help can easily go pear-shaped and result in two people who will absolutely 100% die.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
"If you die mountain climbing, then you probably deserve to. It's dangerous and mistakes are fatal." -very loose paraphrase from memory of a comment by Heinrich Harrer.
Everest is kinda different from other mountains in that it attracts lots of amateurs.
posted by ovvl at 3:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Everest is kinda different from other mountains in that it attracts lots of amateurs.
posted by ovvl at 3:12 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
an element and responsibilty of taking a single step above 25,000' is personally acknowledging: no one else can help me now. i would risk their life to even ask.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 3:14 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
A light google search yielded several reports of a drone reaching 11,000 feet, and one you tube video about one that supposedly got to 15,000 feet. So - no, at least not yet.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:20 PM on December 19, 2017
A light google search yielded several reports of a drone reaching 11,000 feet, and one you tube video about one that supposedly got to 15,000 feet. So - no, at least not yet.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:20 PM on December 19, 2017
Can anyone convince me that climbing Everest in this context is not both selfish and immoral?
posted by bq at 3:29 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 3:29 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I"m sure you could make high altitude drones, it's just a matter of bigger and faster rotors vs. lighter weight, isn't it? The summit of Everest is about one third of the air pressure at sea level, so if drones now can reach 15k feet, about half, then twice the rotor size/speed and/or half the weight should make it possible to fly a drone to 30k feet, all else being equal (and assuming these things scale linearly, which I think they do).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:31 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
To quash the drone debate, you're not bringing anything useful in those winds. You're especially not carrying any cargo. Oxygen tanks are heavy as hell.
posted by Sphinx at 3:48 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 3:48 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can anyone convince me that climbing Everest in this context is not both selfish and immoral?I can't convince you, nor do I really want to, but the most frequent response to this sort of allegation that I see is "But think of the Sherpas/Nepal!" And it's true, Nepal is one of the poorest countries in the world and the health of the Everest climbing industry is vital to the economy. See Mountaineering on Mount Everest: Evolution, Economy, Ecology, and Ethics | Gyan Nyaupane - Academia.edu.
posted by xyzzy at 4:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
We're talking about four men who decided to cut corners (as per the article) on a trip that would put their lives at risk. Who received help of local government and had "supervision" of people who should have known that they were underqualified and under-equipped, all for the sake of pursuing personal glory. The fact that they are not rich people form a developed country makes this even more tragic because the likely outcomes for their families are not good in a heavily patriarchal society.
Three men, one woman.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Three men, one woman.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Typical winds in May, when most people try to summit, are 25mph, which apparently is common to fly drones in, according to what I can find, and an oxygen bottle as used for that kind of thing weighs between 2.5 and 7 kg, while there are consumer drones that lift 10 kg and have a 24 minute flight time with that payload. Doesn't seem impossible to me, but I'm sure lots of testing would be required.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:20 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:20 PM on December 19, 2017
I agree that there are reasonable moral / ethical concerns about climbing Everest. The effects of the commoditization of the experience are numerous and probably indefensible.
I will say, though, that the confusion espoused here about not understanding why people are motivated to make the climb is itself confusing to me. People (reasonably!) want to explore the breadth of experience that existence has to offer. We get one life, we'll probably be stuck on Earth for the duration, and there's only one place on Earth where you can stand at the highest altitude possible -- what's more to explain? Why try an exotic food even when you think you wouldn't regularly order it? If it were more easily possible for private citizens to visit the moon at great financial and environmental expense, I'm sure there would be no shortage of people wanting to do so, even if it carried a high risk of fatal failure, and even if all they had to show for it afterward was the story.
Certainly it's appropriate to comment on unexamined privilege and the ethical considerations of the externalities of these trips, but to me the motivation to pursue unique experiences is obvious.
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 4:27 PM on December 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
I will say, though, that the confusion espoused here about not understanding why people are motivated to make the climb is itself confusing to me. People (reasonably!) want to explore the breadth of experience that existence has to offer. We get one life, we'll probably be stuck on Earth for the duration, and there's only one place on Earth where you can stand at the highest altitude possible -- what's more to explain? Why try an exotic food even when you think you wouldn't regularly order it? If it were more easily possible for private citizens to visit the moon at great financial and environmental expense, I'm sure there would be no shortage of people wanting to do so, even if it carried a high risk of fatal failure, and even if all they had to show for it afterward was the story.
Certainly it's appropriate to comment on unexamined privilege and the ethical considerations of the externalities of these trips, but to me the motivation to pursue unique experiences is obvious.
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 4:27 PM on December 19, 2017 [14 favorites]
To quash the drone debate, you're not bringing anything useful in those winds. You're especially not carrying any cargo. Oxygen tanks are heavy as hell.
Not yet. No, but at the speed this technology is advancing, it's probably one of the safer near future predictions that can be made.
posted by Beholder at 4:41 PM on December 19, 2017
Not yet. No, but at the speed this technology is advancing, it's probably one of the safer near future predictions that can be made.
posted by Beholder at 4:41 PM on December 19, 2017
In the 1920's, the British hauled old-fashioned photographic plate cameras up there. Well their Sherpas hauled them, of course. But I don't doubt you could carry a drone up.
posted by thelonius at 5:16 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by thelonius at 5:16 PM on December 19, 2017
A lack of oxygen isn't the underlying cause for people who value their money over human life.
It may be cynical to say it, but I think the key is that it's their money (plus time, planning, emotion, opportunity cost, etc) versus someone else's life. Combine that with some altitude sickness fogging the brain and you get some ... unusual ... decisions.
posted by theorique at 5:22 PM on December 19, 2017
It may be cynical to say it, but I think the key is that it's their money (plus time, planning, emotion, opportunity cost, etc) versus someone else's life. Combine that with some altitude sickness fogging the brain and you get some ... unusual ... decisions.
posted by theorique at 5:22 PM on December 19, 2017
Sphinx: "To quash the drone debate, you're not bringing anything useful in those winds. You're especially not carrying any cargo. Oxygen tanks are heavy as hell."
You'd fly oxygen candles not air tanks. A couple kgs gives several man hours of oxygen and as a bonus cranks out a ton of heat.
posted by Mitheral at 5:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
You'd fly oxygen candles not air tanks. A couple kgs gives several man hours of oxygen and as a bonus cranks out a ton of heat.
posted by Mitheral at 5:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
People (reasonably!) want to explore the breadth of experience that existence has to offer. We get one life, we'll probably be stuck on Earth for the duration, and there's only one place on Earth where you can stand at the highest altitude possible – what's more to explain?
I guess for me, the horror comes from the fact that it's a combination of the hostile environment of a mountain (multiplied by many times anything I've experienced), combined with the regimented control of a meat-processing plant, and the human wreckage of the stairs at a squat party gone pear-shaped.
I'm only a hillwalker, and that not very often (the highest I've ever been is Mt Toubkal, which is non-technical and non-glacial), so maybe I don't understand the reason for mountaineering, but this feels like the antithesis of everything that I enjoy about being in the mountains.
I can understand and sympathise a lot more with the Indian group in the story than I do with anyone flying halfway round the world to climb these mountains instead of buying themselves a Camaro. The Himalayas are something world beating that their country and their culture has, and here they are, unlikely to find a way to make their mark on the world any other way, and they get to feel at the top of it for one moment that they can keep. If you're from a rich country, ride your bike to Alaska or Norway or the length of Chile or sail the Atlantic or something.
Don't go somewhere where ordinary life is so much closer the limits of survival than in your homeland to be an edgelord of your own limits of survival. That's bad taste.
posted by ambrosen at 6:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I guess for me, the horror comes from the fact that it's a combination of the hostile environment of a mountain (multiplied by many times anything I've experienced), combined with the regimented control of a meat-processing plant, and the human wreckage of the stairs at a squat party gone pear-shaped.
I'm only a hillwalker, and that not very often (the highest I've ever been is Mt Toubkal, which is non-technical and non-glacial), so maybe I don't understand the reason for mountaineering, but this feels like the antithesis of everything that I enjoy about being in the mountains.
I can understand and sympathise a lot more with the Indian group in the story than I do with anyone flying halfway round the world to climb these mountains instead of buying themselves a Camaro. The Himalayas are something world beating that their country and their culture has, and here they are, unlikely to find a way to make their mark on the world any other way, and they get to feel at the top of it for one moment that they can keep. If you're from a rich country, ride your bike to Alaska or Norway or the length of Chile or sail the Atlantic or something.
Don't go somewhere where ordinary life is so much closer the limits of survival than in your homeland to be an edgelord of your own limits of survival. That's bad taste.
posted by ambrosen at 6:02 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
How many dead bodies before a place is considered "cursed" and avoided as bad luck?
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:11 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:11 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
The reference to the body of "a doctor from Alabama" seemed singular enough that I could find out who he was, so I did. That would be Roland Yearwood, and whoever he had been or whatever his sins were, he lay there as an equal to Gautham Gosh in the Death Zone.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:17 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Countess Elena at 6:17 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I dunno. If the 2nd guy going up there had to climb over the body of the 1st, that would be one thing. But the 5,000th? Would you climb over bodies to get on It’s A Small World After All? I hope I wouldn’t. It doesn’t seem funny or cool to me.
posted by ftm at 6:26 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ftm at 6:26 PM on December 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Would you climb over bodies to get on It’s A Small World After All?
I was gonna say lol of course not, I cannot STAND singing children, but now I want to know under what hypothetical circumstances this would be happening, for fiction reasons.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I was gonna say lol of course not, I cannot STAND singing children, but now I want to know under what hypothetical circumstances this would be happening, for fiction reasons.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I experience conquest and perseverance five days a week. Playing tennis against a bunch of sixty year old whippersnappers.
posted by notreally at 6:29 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by notreally at 6:29 PM on December 19, 2017
Personally, I have a horror of finding myself in a situation where I have to weigh up the survival of other living beings. I cannot imagine planning a trip into the upper atmosphere solely to walk by gape-jawed cadavers in REI jackets for -- what? No scientific or cultural achievement is left up there. The world is full of peak experiences and physical challenges. So many of these people aren't trying to summit Everest; they're trying to summit themselves. And how many find they have failed?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 6:34 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
If I were going to climb Everest, I'd give some kind of token to my family, saying that if I didn’t make it back, they should bury this object in my stead. If you’re going to be an asshole, why be a burden as well?
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:57 PM on December 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is why I don't have a lot of use for people who have climbed Everest. I'm supposed to be impressed, I gather, but I'm just not.
Are your hobbies supposed to be impressive to others? I don’t understand why you assume their hobby is supposed to impress you.
posted by paulcole at 7:09 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Are your hobbies supposed to be impressive to others? I don’t understand why you assume their hobby is supposed to impress you.
posted by paulcole at 7:09 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Does everyone here subscribe to the NYT? Lately I find myself paywalled out of more and more posts, and it is frustrating.
posted by kinnakeet at 7:40 PM on December 19, 2017
posted by kinnakeet at 7:40 PM on December 19, 2017
Does everyone here subscribe to the NYT? Lately I find myself paywalled out of more and more posts, and it is frustrating.
Viewing the page in private/incognito mode is your friend!
posted by maupuia at 7:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Viewing the page in private/incognito mode is your friend!
posted by maupuia at 7:51 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I know I should be horrified by people who don't stop to help, but mostly I think that, other than the sherpas, I don't really care for any of these people and don't care what they do or if they help each other.
Except that I really love reading about the disasters. See also: cave diving, people who fall into the Grand Canyon.
posted by jeather at 8:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Except that I really love reading about the disasters. See also: cave diving, people who fall into the Grand Canyon.
posted by jeather at 8:07 PM on December 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
So this guy, Alan Arnette, blogs every climbing season and keeps track of who's on the mountain. Well worth reading. One year, I came across a Canadian woman's blog. She had actually been born in Nepal and it was a homecoming/odyssey for her. She didn't have a lot of mountaineering experience or much money but she was very big on positive thinking. She rounded up a bunch of sponsors who donated equipment and then I kind of lost track of her story after she arrived in Nepal. Yeah, she died.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:18 PM on December 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
The word tragedy doesn't seem to fit. I like to save that word for unexpected and unlikely events.
Think of the original Greek meaning, where the protagonist is brought down by personal flaws, often hubris.
posted by Candleman at 8:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Think of the original Greek meaning, where the protagonist is brought down by personal flaws, often hubris.
posted by Candleman at 8:22 PM on December 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
now I want to know under what hypothetical circumstances this would be happening, for fiction reasons.
Edgy remake of Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?
As an ethical matter, I can accept an environment in which everyone knows going in that their own margin of survival is so narrow that they will not be able to stop to help each other should someone fall into distress. I can't think of anywhere more truly voluntary to be (for the non-Sherpas) than climbing Everest, and the mores seem well-understood by all. But I would not personally enjoy stepping over corpses to summit.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Edgy remake of Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?
As an ethical matter, I can accept an environment in which everyone knows going in that their own margin of survival is so narrow that they will not be able to stop to help each other should someone fall into distress. I can't think of anywhere more truly voluntary to be (for the non-Sherpas) than climbing Everest, and the mores seem well-understood by all. But I would not personally enjoy stepping over corpses to summit.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 PM on December 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was particularly interested in the institutional support that the West Bengal government gives to mountain climbers and to these individuals in particular. $90,000 to recover these corpses is not chump change, on top of the regular grants that they give to financially support mountaineering clubs in the province -- so why is there political interest in supporting this hobby?
I don't have a good answer to the question, but it does seem to be connected to the current chief minister of the province, Mamata Banerjee, a surprisingly interesting figure. She's the first female leader of West Bengal; she's personally incorruptible; she portrays herself as an 'elder sister' protecting the little guy, and is the leader of a political party centered around her personal charisma and appeal to Bengal populism (her slogan is "Mother, Motherland and People"). She seems personally responsible for the push to support mountain climbing. Perhaps others know more about Indian politics then I do -- what is the connection between populist politics and mountain climbing in West Bengal?
posted by crazy with stars at 9:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't have a good answer to the question, but it does seem to be connected to the current chief minister of the province, Mamata Banerjee, a surprisingly interesting figure. She's the first female leader of West Bengal; she's personally incorruptible; she portrays herself as an 'elder sister' protecting the little guy, and is the leader of a political party centered around her personal charisma and appeal to Bengal populism (her slogan is "Mother, Motherland and People"). She seems personally responsible for the push to support mountain climbing. Perhaps others know more about Indian politics then I do -- what is the connection between populist politics and mountain climbing in West Bengal?
posted by crazy with stars at 9:53 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
But I would not personally enjoy stepping over corpses to summit.
I enjoy reading about high-risk adventures, whether they go well or not, so I've read a lot about Everest. I've always thought the thing that would ruin it for me would be waiting in a long line, or climbing as part of a long line of climbers snaking across the snow. For me, there have been certain experiences in my life where both a sense of solitude and a sense that I'm working hard have been meaningful--I've never been much of a risk-taker or an adventurer, but even the very low-level overnight kayak trips or long bike tours I've taken were satisfying in the sense that I felt I was working hard, and that the payoff for my hard work was access to experiences I might not otherwise have had--though in some ways, it was the hard work that transformed the experience, as when a boating friend and I camped at a riverside campground also accessible by car, or when my bike-trip companion and I pedaled into a small town we could have easily driven to, and possibly had driven to in the past. Indeed, on both my long bikes trips, our destination was her family's rundown vacation house on Lake Superior, and we would arrive there after, say, more than three weeks on bicycles, only to greeted by our families who had driven up that day.
But another piece of the satisfaction was feeling that I had put in some extra effort to have an experience most people wouldn't. I often hear people here at Metafilter talk about putting in the extra effort to get away from the most populated tourist zones in National Parks, say, and the payoff for them is both avoiding the crowd and getting to see a part of the park most people don't see. If I'd put in all that effort to get up Everest and found myself standing in line like a last-minute Thanksgiving shopper at the grocery store, it would undermine so much of the value of that experience for me. And "here is a picture of me standing on the summit" wouldn't mean much to me, I don't think, given my own experience of not needing to seek out exotic locales to have the experiences I wanted--my kayak trips and my bike trips mostly took place right here in my home state of Michigan.
When I have read about Everest, I've often been really interested in the base camp. I used to work at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, and I loved that experience of living in community in tents in the woods, and working hard to make something happen. I've sometimes thought that if I were at all interested in being on Everest, doing some kind of work at the base camp, getting to know the other people there, helping to make something happen, would be my place. At Michigan, there were crews doing every kind of work from plumbing to cooking to garbage collection to monitoring traffic on the land to supporting the performers to taking tickets at the front gate, and more. When you feel like you're helping make something worthwhile happen, and sharing the work, what you're doing doesn't matter much. I'll never climb a mountain, and I have never been a person who would climb a mountain, but I can imagine a slightly different life in which "garbage collection at Everest basecamp" was an entry on my resume.
posted by Orlop at 12:42 AM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
I enjoy reading about high-risk adventures, whether they go well or not, so I've read a lot about Everest. I've always thought the thing that would ruin it for me would be waiting in a long line, or climbing as part of a long line of climbers snaking across the snow. For me, there have been certain experiences in my life where both a sense of solitude and a sense that I'm working hard have been meaningful--I've never been much of a risk-taker or an adventurer, but even the very low-level overnight kayak trips or long bike tours I've taken were satisfying in the sense that I felt I was working hard, and that the payoff for my hard work was access to experiences I might not otherwise have had--though in some ways, it was the hard work that transformed the experience, as when a boating friend and I camped at a riverside campground also accessible by car, or when my bike-trip companion and I pedaled into a small town we could have easily driven to, and possibly had driven to in the past. Indeed, on both my long bikes trips, our destination was her family's rundown vacation house on Lake Superior, and we would arrive there after, say, more than three weeks on bicycles, only to greeted by our families who had driven up that day.
But another piece of the satisfaction was feeling that I had put in some extra effort to have an experience most people wouldn't. I often hear people here at Metafilter talk about putting in the extra effort to get away from the most populated tourist zones in National Parks, say, and the payoff for them is both avoiding the crowd and getting to see a part of the park most people don't see. If I'd put in all that effort to get up Everest and found myself standing in line like a last-minute Thanksgiving shopper at the grocery store, it would undermine so much of the value of that experience for me. And "here is a picture of me standing on the summit" wouldn't mean much to me, I don't think, given my own experience of not needing to seek out exotic locales to have the experiences I wanted--my kayak trips and my bike trips mostly took place right here in my home state of Michigan.
When I have read about Everest, I've often been really interested in the base camp. I used to work at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, and I loved that experience of living in community in tents in the woods, and working hard to make something happen. I've sometimes thought that if I were at all interested in being on Everest, doing some kind of work at the base camp, getting to know the other people there, helping to make something happen, would be my place. At Michigan, there were crews doing every kind of work from plumbing to cooking to garbage collection to monitoring traffic on the land to supporting the performers to taking tickets at the front gate, and more. When you feel like you're helping make something worthwhile happen, and sharing the work, what you're doing doesn't matter much. I'll never climb a mountain, and I have never been a person who would climb a mountain, but I can imagine a slightly different life in which "garbage collection at Everest basecamp" was an entry on my resume.
posted by Orlop at 12:42 AM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
Maybe people should be obliged to pay into an insurance fund that would cover the cost of recovering your body/stuff. Inexperience, poor equipment, poor planning, inadequate support would all increase your premium.
Of course any such scheme would most likely rule out less wealthy climbers like these.
posted by Segundus at 1:17 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course any such scheme would most likely rule out less wealthy climbers like these.
posted by Segundus at 1:17 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've always thought the thing that would ruin it for me would be waiting in a long line, or climbing as part of a long line of climbers snaking across the snow. For me, there have been certain experiences in my life where both a sense of solitude and a sense that I'm working hard have been meaningful
Very well-put.
Heck, I get irritated just being held up at the subway turnstiles by people who don't have their Metrocard ready. Reproducing that experience when I've trekked to the ends of the earth and am only hours from death...
posted by praemunire at 7:39 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Very well-put.
Heck, I get irritated just being held up at the subway turnstiles by people who don't have their Metrocard ready. Reproducing that experience when I've trekked to the ends of the earth and am only hours from death...
posted by praemunire at 7:39 AM on December 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Would it kill you to walk left, stand right?
posted by anthill at 7:41 AM on December 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by anthill at 7:41 AM on December 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
What strikes me is the exorbitant expense of retrieving the bodies stacked against the poverty and struggles of the families left behind. That money would have changed the life of their children, but the government spent it on what is essentially a PR move to fetch corpses (and never mind the personal risk to the guides who manned the recovery mission).
Such a waste all around: of money, of life, of goodwill, of opportunity.
posted by lydhre at 8:02 AM on December 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
Such a waste all around: of money, of life, of goodwill, of opportunity.
posted by lydhre at 8:02 AM on December 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's my understanding that the air is too thin for helicopters. Does this also apply to drones or because they are smaller and lighter they can fly even when helicopters can't?
Yeah, drone technology is, I assume, not there yet, but it cant be too far off.
For whatever it's worth, I did the Everest Base Camp trek a couple weeks ago and one of my fellow hikers brought a drone with him for filming. But the batteries couldn't hold up for long at those temperatures and the camera really struggled with contrast and white-balancing. It also couldn't get too far away from him. I'm sure there are more capable drones out there, though this was a fairly high-end version as far as what you can buy in stores.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 8:38 AM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yeah, drone technology is, I assume, not there yet, but it cant be too far off.
For whatever it's worth, I did the Everest Base Camp trek a couple weeks ago and one of my fellow hikers brought a drone with him for filming. But the batteries couldn't hold up for long at those temperatures and the camera really struggled with contrast and white-balancing. It also couldn't get too far away from him. I'm sure there are more capable drones out there, though this was a fairly high-end version as far as what you can buy in stores.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 8:38 AM on December 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Would you climb over bodies to get on It’s A Small World After All?
Certainly not.
Out of? ...lemme think about it.
posted by Gelatin at 9:31 AM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Certainly not.
Out of? ...lemme think about it.
posted by Gelatin at 9:31 AM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't believe I can properly understand the draw of this sort of trekking--oxygen supported treks on mountains such as Everest. I was never a technical climber, although I have done some ridge running in the Sierras. I have a visceral connection with the climbers in this article, though, if only in the understanding of what it cost me to attain the view. There was a time that I only half jokingly said that I wouldn't mind dying in the high country, and if I did I wanted them to just roll me off the trail far enough to keep from alarming the mules.
I don't believe I was a back country traveler with an obsession. I remember a conversation I had with a couple of hunters I was packing in to the back of Ritter/Banner. They said they didn't really enjoy hunting that much, but it was a reason to get up the high country. I had to smile. My reason was more direct--to just be there. After I stopped packing for outfitters and the government, I spent the next 15 years running up trails I hadn't had a chance to visit when working for others. I finally got too gimped up to ride, so I am into rocking chairs now, and I go back up to the High Sierras only in my dreams.
I am glad to not have to account for anybody's obsession. But as obsessions go, I can relate to those who want to get to the top of the world, and rightly claim that they earned the view.
posted by mule98J at 10:09 AM on December 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't believe I was a back country traveler with an obsession. I remember a conversation I had with a couple of hunters I was packing in to the back of Ritter/Banner. They said they didn't really enjoy hunting that much, but it was a reason to get up the high country. I had to smile. My reason was more direct--to just be there. After I stopped packing for outfitters and the government, I spent the next 15 years running up trails I hadn't had a chance to visit when working for others. I finally got too gimped up to ride, so I am into rocking chairs now, and I go back up to the High Sierras only in my dreams.
I am glad to not have to account for anybody's obsession. But as obsessions go, I can relate to those who want to get to the top of the world, and rightly claim that they earned the view.
posted by mule98J at 10:09 AM on December 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
I posted this story because it reminded me strongly of something I've told here once before: "We're doing what a civilized society does. We look for our dead."
Recently a colleague of mine talked about finding a missing person's body and watching over it until Park Service rangers arrived to recover it. It was less distressing for her and her clients than she thought people might have expected. Everyone involved seemed to understand the great importance of this work.
In an earlier thread discussing bodies on Everest, Eyebrows McGee wrote this, and I think it's very much worth quoting:
There's a lot about modern commercial mountaineering on Everest that is problematic. Those things are adjacent to this specific story, but they aren't at the center of it. This story is, to me at least, about what it means to care for the dead and what humans will do in order to fulfill those obligations. It is part of what makes us a civilized society.
posted by compartment at 10:52 AM on December 20, 2017 [20 favorites]
Recently a colleague of mine talked about finding a missing person's body and watching over it until Park Service rangers arrived to recover it. It was less distressing for her and her clients than she thought people might have expected. Everyone involved seemed to understand the great importance of this work.
In an earlier thread discussing bodies on Everest, Eyebrows McGee wrote this, and I think it's very much worth quoting:
Death rites are definitely the oldest ritual we have evidence for (because buried bodies can be archaeologically discovered) and it's plausible (even likely) that they're the oldest and first ritual that conscious, social creatures engage in. So I would hypothesize that the reason it is so intensely distressing when a body is left behind is that it's a visible break in the human community, a person who has been excluded from the tribe. Death rites say, "Don't worry, if you die, I won't leave you to be mauled by wild dogs -- you can be assured you are part of this community to death and beyond." So I think it makes us so universally uneasy not because of beliefs about the afterlife or anything, but because an untended body says, "This person died alone" or "This person was outside their community and not worthy of death rites." It say, "This person was -- deliberately or accidentally -- cut off from the tribe of humanity." That is literally the most dangerous thing that can happen to a human person, both physically (we are not self-sufficient creatures; we are community-sufficient; a human alone is a human who's gonna die) and emotionally (highly social creatures who need their tribe to survive do not do well emotionally without one). A body left untended after death is a physical sign of our most existential threat. Something has gone horribly wrong. The community has, in some fashion, broken down -- maybe everyone else is dead of disease and he was going for help. Maybe they all fled and he couldn't keep up. Maybe this guy was a murderer and expelled. Maybe he got lost and couldn't be found. Every scenario in which a body is just left there is, for humans, existentially terrifying.Our identities are wrapped up in our relations to other people. I've commented about this here before. It is discomforting that, when other people die, they can take a part of you with them and there's nothing you can do about that. The social contract is a mutual agreement that can be unilaterally undone. I think that recovering the dead — or attempting to do so — can be a way of reclaiming the social contract. In effect, we are saying that we will not willingly let this person leave the tribe of humanity.
There's a lot about modern commercial mountaineering on Everest that is problematic. Those things are adjacent to this specific story, but they aren't at the center of it. This story is, to me at least, about what it means to care for the dead and what humans will do in order to fulfill those obligations. It is part of what makes us a civilized society.
posted by compartment at 10:52 AM on December 20, 2017 [20 favorites]
This is why I don't have a lot of use for people who have climbed Everest. I'm supposed to be impressed, I gather, but I'm just not. I think it's vaguely pathetic.
I suppose it's possible there's nobody in the world that gives a damn about you, and that seems far more sad than you climbing Everest is impressive.
But more likely, there are people out there who care about you, people for whom your pointless death would create a hole in their lives. And in that case, what the fuck is wrong with you? What makes your need to prove your mountain climbing badassery more important than them? (Especially since mostly what happens is you pay enough money to send a kid through college to a bunch of Sherpas to haul your useless ass up the mountain and back.) Who the hell do you think you are?
I find this rhetoric troubling. Other people don't exist so that we can "have a use" for them. Who cares that you find someone's life sad because they don't have loved ones? Is life about not being sad? Is someone a failure if they choose not to have kids but instead go climb mountains? Who the hell are any of us?
Is someone's value based on avoiding causing their loved ones pain for as long as possible? Because in that case I'll stop being gay and riding my bike to work and eating meat, and move back to my hometown and get a job to make more money to support my family when I die, and go work out in a gym every day. Look, I think people should make decisions responsibly, and I don't find climbing Everest particularly responsible, but let's not pretend like any of us are getting out of this alive, without causing grief, or that any of our deaths will have a "point."
There are many valid criticisms of climbing Everest. The impact on the environment and the local people, certainly. The machismo and cultural imperialism. I have no interest in it for those reasons. But a lot of the reasons here are more like, "I cannot understand why people say they are interested in this thing that doesn't interest me, so I must imagine they are bad people." When you isolate that logic and consider its implications when applied to other lifestyles and hobbies, it becomes disturbing.
posted by Emily's Fist at 3:17 PM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
I suppose it's possible there's nobody in the world that gives a damn about you, and that seems far more sad than you climbing Everest is impressive.
But more likely, there are people out there who care about you, people for whom your pointless death would create a hole in their lives. And in that case, what the fuck is wrong with you? What makes your need to prove your mountain climbing badassery more important than them? (Especially since mostly what happens is you pay enough money to send a kid through college to a bunch of Sherpas to haul your useless ass up the mountain and back.) Who the hell do you think you are?
I find this rhetoric troubling. Other people don't exist so that we can "have a use" for them. Who cares that you find someone's life sad because they don't have loved ones? Is life about not being sad? Is someone a failure if they choose not to have kids but instead go climb mountains? Who the hell are any of us?
Is someone's value based on avoiding causing their loved ones pain for as long as possible? Because in that case I'll stop being gay and riding my bike to work and eating meat, and move back to my hometown and get a job to make more money to support my family when I die, and go work out in a gym every day. Look, I think people should make decisions responsibly, and I don't find climbing Everest particularly responsible, but let's not pretend like any of us are getting out of this alive, without causing grief, or that any of our deaths will have a "point."
There are many valid criticisms of climbing Everest. The impact on the environment and the local people, certainly. The machismo and cultural imperialism. I have no interest in it for those reasons. But a lot of the reasons here are more like, "I cannot understand why people say they are interested in this thing that doesn't interest me, so I must imagine they are bad people." When you isolate that logic and consider its implications when applied to other lifestyles and hobbies, it becomes disturbing.
posted by Emily's Fist at 3:17 PM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
People do all sorts of dangerous things. ... . Lots of things can kill you.
I used to race cars. Street racing. Super hopped up street racing. Scary stupid street racing. Often where I was the only woman who drove. I had a 1964 Mustang with a 351 Windsor, 10/11 gears, holly hirise, dual carb beast of steel death. I could beat Vettes off the line, I could beat Jags off the line, once I beat a lambo, but that's cause the driver was a moron who stole daddy's car. Every single spare cent I had went into that car. Every spare hour was spent under it, over it, tinkering with it. She was so fast, you guys. So fast. And just turning that engine over was enough to cause stiff nipples for a city block radius. That car was sex on wheels. Seriously, I loved that car, and I loved driving that car at speeds that I knew were deadly.
That's insane. That whole paragraph makes no damn sense to anyone who wasn't a motorhead at some stage in their life. When I look back now on that behavior, I just pray my son didn't inherit the gene for stupid.
Would I do it again if I had the resources? No, but only because I'm not fast enough any more. My reflexes aren't good enough. But goddamn, I miss feeling that much horsepower, and even now when a hopped up old car rumbles past, I have a Rose is Rose moment, and am surprised to find myself in a minivan.
I've never climbed a real mountain, although I've done some rock climbing and rappelling, and I am going to assume that the exhilaration of climbing is like the rush of going fast. That level of controlled adrenaline is amazing. Like, I can't do rollercoasters, because I'm not in control, but I could pilot a nascar around the track and be pretty happy. I would think mountain climbing has to be all about personal control, stretching yourself to your absolute limits, seeing if you can do it, if you can just go that one more bit..just one more.
Are there ethical considerations which I think may be overlooked when people plan Everest? Quite probably, but I don't know enough about it to say that conclusively. But *why* people do it? That's no mystery. Because it's there.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:03 PM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
I used to race cars. Street racing. Super hopped up street racing. Scary stupid street racing. Often where I was the only woman who drove. I had a 1964 Mustang with a 351 Windsor, 10/11 gears, holly hirise, dual carb beast of steel death. I could beat Vettes off the line, I could beat Jags off the line, once I beat a lambo, but that's cause the driver was a moron who stole daddy's car. Every single spare cent I had went into that car. Every spare hour was spent under it, over it, tinkering with it. She was so fast, you guys. So fast. And just turning that engine over was enough to cause stiff nipples for a city block radius. That car was sex on wheels. Seriously, I loved that car, and I loved driving that car at speeds that I knew were deadly.
That's insane. That whole paragraph makes no damn sense to anyone who wasn't a motorhead at some stage in their life. When I look back now on that behavior, I just pray my son didn't inherit the gene for stupid.
Would I do it again if I had the resources? No, but only because I'm not fast enough any more. My reflexes aren't good enough. But goddamn, I miss feeling that much horsepower, and even now when a hopped up old car rumbles past, I have a Rose is Rose moment, and am surprised to find myself in a minivan.
I've never climbed a real mountain, although I've done some rock climbing and rappelling, and I am going to assume that the exhilaration of climbing is like the rush of going fast. That level of controlled adrenaline is amazing. Like, I can't do rollercoasters, because I'm not in control, but I could pilot a nascar around the track and be pretty happy. I would think mountain climbing has to be all about personal control, stretching yourself to your absolute limits, seeing if you can do it, if you can just go that one more bit..just one more.
Are there ethical considerations which I think may be overlooked when people plan Everest? Quite probably, but I don't know enough about it to say that conclusively. But *why* people do it? That's no mystery. Because it's there.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:03 PM on December 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
SecretAgentSockPuppet - man, I wanna drive that car, hell I wanna ride in that car. I used to race, nothing like you, and boy do I miss that feeling. And yeah, it would kill me now. Too slow, too old, too invested in living now that I can no longer die young and leave a pretty corpse.
Nowawadays, I just need to satisfy myself with a close of the eyes and a dream that I can still maybe, if I convince my wife it's ok, do that HALO jump I've always wanted to train for.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:16 PM on December 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nowawadays, I just need to satisfy myself with a close of the eyes and a dream that I can still maybe, if I convince my wife it's ok, do that HALO jump I've always wanted to train for.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:16 PM on December 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Like SecretAgentSockpuppet I've mis-spent large amounts of money going fast on four wheels (or 6, a few times on 8, and once on tracks). Mostly that was only endangering my self but I've made a couple highway trips that if done today and caught would get one jail time and your ride impounded and sold off. (The law used to be a lot more lax). So I can totally understand the drive to risk your life like this even if the specific goal doesn't speak to me.
SecretAgentSockpuppet: "once I beat a lambo, but that's cause the driver was a moron who stole daddy's car. "
Got to love a 15 second driver in a 10 second car.
posted by Mitheral at 8:20 PM on December 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
SecretAgentSockpuppet: "once I beat a lambo, but that's cause the driver was a moron who stole daddy's car. "
Got to love a 15 second driver in a 10 second car.
posted by Mitheral at 8:20 PM on December 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
There was a time that I only half jokingly said that I wouldn't mind dying in the high country, and if I did I wanted them to just roll me off the trail far enough to keep from alarming the mules.
I recently read Young Men and Fire by Norman MacLean, which is about the early days of the Smokejumpers, and the Mann Gulch fire in 1949 in which a number of early smokejumpers died. It's a wonderful book, by the way. MacLean was an old man when he was writing it, and it was published posthumously. At one point, he and some companions are set to embark on the difficult trek to get the remove mountaintop site where the Smokejumpers died, to look the site over and find the memorial markers. His companions, young men than him, were concerned that he wasn't up to the climb and hike, and wanted him to stop at an early resting point and wait for them. He said, in essence, that if he was going to die, that mountain was a fine place to do it, and they said, "Fair enough," and they all carried on.
posted by Orlop at 9:23 PM on December 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
I recently read Young Men and Fire by Norman MacLean, which is about the early days of the Smokejumpers, and the Mann Gulch fire in 1949 in which a number of early smokejumpers died. It's a wonderful book, by the way. MacLean was an old man when he was writing it, and it was published posthumously. At one point, he and some companions are set to embark on the difficult trek to get the remove mountaintop site where the Smokejumpers died, to look the site over and find the memorial markers. His companions, young men than him, were concerned that he wasn't up to the climb and hike, and wanted him to stop at an early resting point and wait for them. He said, in essence, that if he was going to die, that mountain was a fine place to do it, and they said, "Fair enough," and they all carried on.
posted by Orlop at 9:23 PM on December 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
Are there ethical considerations which I think may be overlooked when people plan Everest? Quite probably, but I don't know enough about it to say that conclusively. But *why* people do it? That's no mystery. Because it's there.
There's a line in the much-quoted Mary Oliver poem "Wild Geese" about "let[ting] the soft animal of your body love what it loves." Oliver is a nature poet, but I've always thought that's as good a summation of why people do what they do as any: we love what we love because we love it. Post facto, we can describe what we value about it, or what drives our enjoyment of it, but ultimately it's a mystery. I have four children, and I have really enjoyed watching them grow, and seeing how their passions and interests arrive, often surprisingly early, for no apparent reason except "that's who this person is."
I have a friend who plays the harp, and she remembers the moment as an elementary school student when she saw a harpist play for the first time and immediately knew she wanted to do it, too. How many other little kids were there that day? Some of them were bored, and some of them loved the music without feeling drawn to make music, and some were also going to be musicians but the harp wasn't their instrument, and then there was my friend, who saw a woman playing a harp and wanted to be the woman playing the harp. Why? Who can say? It's a lovely mystery of life.
At this stage of my life, when I see people who are passionate about things I'm not passionate about, or who are really talented at things I'm not good at, the feeling it evokes in me is a kind of wonder at the complexity and diversity of human minds and emotions.
posted by Orlop at 9:36 PM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
There's a line in the much-quoted Mary Oliver poem "Wild Geese" about "let[ting] the soft animal of your body love what it loves." Oliver is a nature poet, but I've always thought that's as good a summation of why people do what they do as any: we love what we love because we love it. Post facto, we can describe what we value about it, or what drives our enjoyment of it, but ultimately it's a mystery. I have four children, and I have really enjoyed watching them grow, and seeing how their passions and interests arrive, often surprisingly early, for no apparent reason except "that's who this person is."
I have a friend who plays the harp, and she remembers the moment as an elementary school student when she saw a harpist play for the first time and immediately knew she wanted to do it, too. How many other little kids were there that day? Some of them were bored, and some of them loved the music without feeling drawn to make music, and some were also going to be musicians but the harp wasn't their instrument, and then there was my friend, who saw a woman playing a harp and wanted to be the woman playing the harp. Why? Who can say? It's a lovely mystery of life.
At this stage of my life, when I see people who are passionate about things I'm not passionate about, or who are really talented at things I'm not good at, the feeling it evokes in me is a kind of wonder at the complexity and diversity of human minds and emotions.
posted by Orlop at 9:36 PM on December 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
There are some beautiful thoughts in this thread, reminding me why I hang around MeFi.
Just wanted to pop back in to say that Sherpa is available to view on Hulu right now. I started watching it last night too late to finish it and I can't stop thinking about it today.
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:56 AM on December 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Just wanted to pop back in to say that Sherpa is available to view on Hulu right now. I started watching it last night too late to finish it and I can't stop thinking about it today.
posted by fiercecupcake at 6:56 AM on December 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying I don't understand why people would want to do it.
I'm saying I don't understand how people can look at the personal financial cost, the personal risk of death, the environmental impact, the literal graveyard, the effect on the surrounding community, the exploitation of the local people, and do a moral and ethical calculation that comes out with: yes, try to summit Everest.
posted by bq at 11:05 AM on December 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm saying I don't understand how people can look at the personal financial cost, the personal risk of death, the environmental impact, the literal graveyard, the effect on the surrounding community, the exploitation of the local people, and do a moral and ethical calculation that comes out with: yes, try to summit Everest.
posted by bq at 11:05 AM on December 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm saying I don't understand how people can look at the personal financial cost, the personal risk of death, the environmental impact, the literal graveyard, the effect on the surrounding community, the exploitation of the local people, and do a moral and ethical calculation that comes out with: yes, try to summit Everest.
Because for them, the pros outweigh the cons. Not everybody assigns the same values/weights to different factors.
They look at the same factors that you mentioned, crunch the numbers (or intuitive gut feelings), and out comes a conclusion: I need to be on the top of that mountain.
posted by theorique at 11:36 AM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Because for them, the pros outweigh the cons. Not everybody assigns the same values/weights to different factors.
They look at the same factors that you mentioned, crunch the numbers (or intuitive gut feelings), and out comes a conclusion: I need to be on the top of that mountain.
posted by theorique at 11:36 AM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes but that makes them bad or stupid.
Sorry, one of my character flaws is being judgmental. I’ll take a deep breath and let it go.
posted by bq at 12:43 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sorry, one of my character flaws is being judgmental. I’ll take a deep breath and let it go.
posted by bq at 12:43 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I can understand the impulse to want to climb the mountain. There is, I think, a certain human desire to stand on top of tall things just for the hell of it. Look at any group of children in the presence of a recently-delivered pile of dirt and watch how long it takes for someone to decide to climb to the top of it, just because, well, it's there. Not long.
But I can't understand or forgive the person who would step over someone who is dying or at risk of dying, leaving them there, simply so that they can stand on top of what amounts to a very large hill.
I wonder how many fewer dead bodies there would be on the mountain, if all of the people who passed by them when they were in trouble, had aborted their own ego trips in order to help them? At least a few, I'd wager.
There seems to be something unpleasant going on with Everest climbs that you don't see in other high-risk sports; I know a few people who are into caving, and I can't imagine for a second them doing the same sort of thing. They might be pretty annoyed at having to abort a trip with a defined goal in order to help out someone (particularly someone underprepared) who got themselves stuck, but there would never be any question that they wouldn't at least do their best, or that that continuing onwards would be more important than helping.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
But I can't understand or forgive the person who would step over someone who is dying or at risk of dying, leaving them there, simply so that they can stand on top of what amounts to a very large hill.
I wonder how many fewer dead bodies there would be on the mountain, if all of the people who passed by them when they were in trouble, had aborted their own ego trips in order to help them? At least a few, I'd wager.
There seems to be something unpleasant going on with Everest climbs that you don't see in other high-risk sports; I know a few people who are into caving, and I can't imagine for a second them doing the same sort of thing. They might be pretty annoyed at having to abort a trip with a defined goal in order to help out someone (particularly someone underprepared) who got themselves stuck, but there would never be any question that they wouldn't at least do their best, or that that continuing onwards would be more important than helping.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
There seems to be something unpleasant going on with Everest climbs that you don't see in other high-risk sports
Well, hypoxia for one thing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:53 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, hypoxia for one thing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:53 PM on December 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's twenty years old now, but Jon Krakauer's book Into Thin Air gives a great insight into the mindset of a fatal Everest expedition.
posted by daybeforetheday at 1:10 AM on December 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by daybeforetheday at 1:10 AM on December 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Man, I hope it's safe to assume everyone in this thread has read Into Thin Air. If not, get off the internet, read it, and come back.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:28 AM on December 22, 2017
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:28 AM on December 22, 2017
Jeremy: (after kissing Natalie) I'll tell you this: any small glimmer of a chance that I was going to climb Everest has completely vanished.
posted by emkelley at 6:00 PM on December 23, 2017
posted by emkelley at 6:00 PM on December 23, 2017
.
.
.
It meant a lot to me to read this article and see the photos and video of these South Asians and their complicated lives and deaths, their courage and their bad decisions. Thanks for posting it.
posted by brainwane at 4:30 PM on December 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
.
.
It meant a lot to me to read this article and see the photos and video of these South Asians and their complicated lives and deaths, their courage and their bad decisions. Thanks for posting it.
posted by brainwane at 4:30 PM on December 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
« Older Rich People Should Be Good Not Rich People... | I saw my estranged father on the train & all I... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by simra at 12:28 PM on December 19, 2017 [5 favorites]