#FixTheFreakingSubway
May 20, 2018 9:31 AM Subscribe
Why Do Some Parts of New York Have So Many Subways While Others Have None? - So, who uses NYC’s flashy new, soon to be expanded ferry service? People who can afford to avoid the subway. - The city isn’t prepared for a planned shutdown of The L train, and it’s about to get even worse - (Village Voice)
“The time factor has nothing to do with it for me,” explained J. Scott Klossner, a 53-year-old freelancer currently working for the Today show who takes the Rockaway route, even though it adds almost 45 minutes each way to his commute.
“I can get a coffee, a bagel, everyone is nice. The opposite is true of the A train: Everyone is a fucking asshole."
Hm.
But who these ferry riders are is a question that the city has so far declined to answer.
Oh, I think we know.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:30 AM on May 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
“I can get a coffee, a bagel, everyone is nice. The opposite is true of the A train: Everyone is a fucking asshole."
Hm.
But who these ferry riders are is a question that the city has so far declined to answer.
Oh, I think we know.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:30 AM on May 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
From the first link:
The linked Eighth Avenue and Fulton lines (today the A/C in Manhattan and Brooklyn) were such a marvel they prompted Duke Ellington to write a hit song in their honor
Not to get too pedantic here* but Billy Strayhorn composed Take the A Train, and a young woman named Joya Sherrill wrote the lyrics to it, though Strayhorn wrote the song for Ellington and Sherrill's father get her a meeting with Ellington upon hearing her lyrics, and both collaborated with Ellington throughout their careers.
*absolutely to get too pedantic here
posted by Navelgazer at 1:00 PM on May 20, 2018 [28 favorites]
The linked Eighth Avenue and Fulton lines (today the A/C in Manhattan and Brooklyn) were such a marvel they prompted Duke Ellington to write a hit song in their honor
Not to get too pedantic here* but Billy Strayhorn composed Take the A Train, and a young woman named Joya Sherrill wrote the lyrics to it, though Strayhorn wrote the song for Ellington and Sherrill's father get her a meeting with Ellington upon hearing her lyrics, and both collaborated with Ellington throughout their careers.
*absolutely to get too pedantic here
posted by Navelgazer at 1:00 PM on May 20, 2018 [28 favorites]
The ferries will only work until become popular enough that they are regularly turning away passengers because they have a fixed capacity for safety reasons. Once that threshold is hit either the prices or the complaints will soar.
posted by srboisvert at 3:04 PM on May 20, 2018
posted by srboisvert at 3:04 PM on May 20, 2018
Sorry, but the criticism of the ferries is so much austerity-mongering bullshit. It makes me angry to see people who should know better (like Aaron Gordon) supporting the ferry backlash. "Ferry Riders Say de Blasio’s Subsidies Spare Them Subway Trauma"—that is straight-up clickbait, not one person quoted in that article says anything about "trauma." This basically comes down to people in Manhattan and the subway-heavy (that is, expensive) parts of Brooklyn complaining that the ferries are too nice for the bridge-and-tunnel people they primarily serve. In the linked Voice article, the co-authors (including Gordon) describe the ferry subsidy only as "massive"; in Gordon's newsletter this week, he admits that the subsidy is less than that for regional rail and less than half that of some city bus routes: "The ferry is a subsidy—$6.60 per ride—for generally higher-income New Yorkers to not take the subway. The city/state also subsidize subway rides ($1.29 per ride) local buses ($3.58), LIRR (~$8), and express buses (~$15 [yes, fifteen])."1
More to the point, many of the widely-mocked amenities available on the ferries—bathrooms, beer—were historically available, before decades of austerity, on other forms of public transit in the region (bathrooms in the subway, alcohol on regional rail). It's absurd for self-styled progressives to complain about their presence in the ferries. To quote a fellow worker: "Nothing's too good for the working class." Should the subways and buses also have bathrooms, clean seats, intelligible announcements, and reliable schedules? Of course they should, but New York City does not control the subways and buses and can do nothing about those problems except send money off to Albany (which they have done, to an unprecedented extent) and pray.
The ferry system is something the city can set up itself which will benefit city residents today. It's one of the oldest forms of public transit in NYC (I want to cry when I read about the frequency and speed with which ferries ran from Hallet's Cove here in Astoria to 86th Street in Manhattan, a trip of less than half a mile which takes close to an hour on any public transportation available today). It is run by accountable elected officials, not a Robert Moses outfit specifically designed to be accountable to no one—like the MTA. And it's not susceptible (like bus rapid transit, the great perennial hope of NYC transit advocates) to being undermined by NIMBY's and a lack of NYPD traffic enforcement.
There are certainly legitimate criticisms that could be leveled at the ferry system: lack of fare interoperability (with MetroCard), excessive dwell times, overpriced concessions, and routes that seem to have been designed by giving a toddler a map. I wish transit supporters would make those criticisms instead of trying to set themselves up as arbiters of who does and doesn't deserve good transit, and instead of comparing the per-ride subsidy of a system that opened last year to transit systems whose initial capital costs were paid off many decades ago (and without comparing it to the massive subsidies drivers—who are higher-income to a much more substantial degree than residents of the neighborhoods at which the linked article takes digs, and for whom there is really data demonstrating as much—receive).
1. The only evidence given for the claim that ferry riders are higher-income (than whom? we aren't told) is the authors' sense of how well-off the people they saw and spoke to—a whopping 35 of them—appeared to be. That's hardly science (though, incredibly, they describe this as "our findings"); it's barely journalism.
posted by enn at 3:33 PM on May 20, 2018 [29 favorites]
More to the point, many of the widely-mocked amenities available on the ferries—bathrooms, beer—were historically available, before decades of austerity, on other forms of public transit in the region (bathrooms in the subway, alcohol on regional rail). It's absurd for self-styled progressives to complain about their presence in the ferries. To quote a fellow worker: "Nothing's too good for the working class." Should the subways and buses also have bathrooms, clean seats, intelligible announcements, and reliable schedules? Of course they should, but New York City does not control the subways and buses and can do nothing about those problems except send money off to Albany (which they have done, to an unprecedented extent) and pray.
The ferry system is something the city can set up itself which will benefit city residents today. It's one of the oldest forms of public transit in NYC (I want to cry when I read about the frequency and speed with which ferries ran from Hallet's Cove here in Astoria to 86th Street in Manhattan, a trip of less than half a mile which takes close to an hour on any public transportation available today). It is run by accountable elected officials, not a Robert Moses outfit specifically designed to be accountable to no one—like the MTA. And it's not susceptible (like bus rapid transit, the great perennial hope of NYC transit advocates) to being undermined by NIMBY's and a lack of NYPD traffic enforcement.
There are certainly legitimate criticisms that could be leveled at the ferry system: lack of fare interoperability (with MetroCard), excessive dwell times, overpriced concessions, and routes that seem to have been designed by giving a toddler a map. I wish transit supporters would make those criticisms instead of trying to set themselves up as arbiters of who does and doesn't deserve good transit, and instead of comparing the per-ride subsidy of a system that opened last year to transit systems whose initial capital costs were paid off many decades ago (and without comparing it to the massive subsidies drivers—who are higher-income to a much more substantial degree than residents of the neighborhoods at which the linked article takes digs, and for whom there is really data demonstrating as much—receive).
1. The only evidence given for the claim that ferry riders are higher-income (than whom? we aren't told) is the authors' sense of how well-off the people they saw and spoke to—a whopping 35 of them—appeared to be. That's hardly science (though, incredibly, they describe this as "our findings"); it's barely journalism.
posted by enn at 3:33 PM on May 20, 2018 [29 favorites]
"Ferry Riders Say de Blasio’s Subsidies Spare Them Subway Trauma"—that is straight-up clickbait, not one person quoted in that article says anything about "trauma."
Multiple people were quoted making disparaging comments about the "sort of people" that ride the A train. One said they felt unsafe because it went through (gasp!) East New York, which is an outright racist dogwhistle.
posted by hoyland at 3:47 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Multiple people were quoted making disparaging comments about the "sort of people" that ride the A train. One said they felt unsafe because it went through (gasp!) East New York, which is an outright racist dogwhistle.
posted by hoyland at 3:47 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes, technically, two people is multiple people. What's your point? There's a lot of racist assholes in this city. They ride the ferries, trains, and buses. The point stands: nobody in that article is talking about "subway trauma." That is entirely a fabrication of the headline writer (who, I realize, is probably not one of the authors of the article). Trauma is a different thing than feeling unsafe.
posted by enn at 3:56 PM on May 20, 2018
posted by enn at 3:56 PM on May 20, 2018
One more thing, from the article:
They also tended to live in neighborhoods whose residents have a median income higher than the city’s as a whole, such as Long Island City, Bay Ridge, and Astoria.
Per WNYC's 2012-ish numbers, the NYC overall median household income is $50,711. In Queens's Community District 1, which contains Astoria and Long Island City, the median income is $49,432. In Brooklyn's Community District 10, which contains Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights, it's $53,500.
The median income of households with vehicles—who receive massive subsidies not mentioned or even hinted at in this article, despite being a minority of NYC hhouseholds—is $85,000.
posted by enn at 4:04 PM on May 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
They also tended to live in neighborhoods whose residents have a median income higher than the city’s as a whole, such as Long Island City, Bay Ridge, and Astoria.
Per WNYC's 2012-ish numbers, the NYC overall median household income is $50,711. In Queens's Community District 1, which contains Astoria and Long Island City, the median income is $49,432. In Brooklyn's Community District 10, which contains Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights, it's $53,500.
The median income of households with vehicles—who receive massive subsidies not mentioned or even hinted at in this article, despite being a minority of NYC hhouseholds—is $85,000.
posted by enn at 4:04 PM on May 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
As someone who takes the A train daily, yeah, there's a lot of assholes.
As to the kinds of people that take the ferry, I only know from going from Hoboken, but yeah, it's more expensive. When I would do it, the PATH was $2.50 and the Ferry was $6, so you can do the math.
posted by mephron at 5:28 PM on May 20, 2018
As to the kinds of people that take the ferry, I only know from going from Hoboken, but yeah, it's more expensive. When I would do it, the PATH was $2.50 and the Ferry was $6, so you can do the math.
posted by mephron at 5:28 PM on May 20, 2018
I live in Hamilton Heights (around the block from the A Train stop that Take the A Train is about, hence my passion for accuracy above) and work in Midtown, currently, which means twice daily dealing with the "Showtime Stretch" of the A train, when it runs express between 59th and 125th, which it sometimes does very quickly, yes, but sometimes at a deathly crawl, and which I have so-named the "Showtime Stretch" because it's the best spot for Showtime dancers.
I don't generally enjoy the Showtime dancers, though honestly I've been seeing a lot fewer of them recently (probably because rush-hour A-Train service has been really atrocious recently so there's not even room for the rudest and most reckless of them to operate.) Other buskers on those stretches are generally excellent, however, and more than make up for it.
Though my open letter to the mariachi bands I see often and exclusively during the morning rush hour there: I admire your hustle and it seems as though you've got musical talent. I will never be in the mood for mariachi in the morning on my way to work. I will often likely be in the mood for it on my way home when my dreams are already of margaritas and kicking back. I doubt I'm alone here.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:31 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't generally enjoy the Showtime dancers, though honestly I've been seeing a lot fewer of them recently (probably because rush-hour A-Train service has been really atrocious recently so there's not even room for the rudest and most reckless of them to operate.) Other buskers on those stretches are generally excellent, however, and more than make up for it.
Though my open letter to the mariachi bands I see often and exclusively during the morning rush hour there: I admire your hustle and it seems as though you've got musical talent. I will never be in the mood for mariachi in the morning on my way to work. I will often likely be in the mood for it on my way home when my dreams are already of margaritas and kicking back. I doubt I'm alone here.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:31 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
To say a hopefully obvious thing: the problem with ferries is that you can only board a ferry on the shore. Most people don't live within, say, a 15 minute walk of the shore, so they're still dependent on other, land-based forms of transit to access the ferries.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:57 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:57 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
In Sydney, it's never crossed my mind that the ferries are only serving expensive waterfront suburbs, and so somewhat a subsidy for the rich, though now it's been pointed out it's obvious.
However, I also get to cruise around the harbour on a boat, drink in hand, whenever I want, for a few dollars off my transit card. That's definitely a benefit.
posted by other barry at 5:10 AM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
However, I also get to cruise around the harbour on a boat, drink in hand, whenever I want, for a few dollars off my transit card. That's definitely a benefit.
posted by other barry at 5:10 AM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
As to the kinds of people that take the ferry, I only know from going from Hoboken, but yeah, it's more expensive.
The ferries which the linked article is discussing are the NYC Ferry ferries, where fares are set at $2.75, the same as MTA bus and subway fares. 30-day passes are also available at the same price as the MTA's. It's in part because the price is intentionally kept low that the per-ride subsidy is high. (Although the fares are the same, as I mentioned above, you cannot use a MetroCard to board a ferry, nor can you get a free transfer between ferry and bus/train, though you can transfer from one ferry to another. I don't know whether the lack of farecard interoperability is the fault of NYC Ferries, the MTA, or both. I suspect that to the extent that it's true that ferry riders are wealthier than other transit riders, the lack of MetroCard support is a big factor.)
posted by enn at 7:09 AM on May 21, 2018
The ferries which the linked article is discussing are the NYC Ferry ferries, where fares are set at $2.75, the same as MTA bus and subway fares. 30-day passes are also available at the same price as the MTA's. It's in part because the price is intentionally kept low that the per-ride subsidy is high. (Although the fares are the same, as I mentioned above, you cannot use a MetroCard to board a ferry, nor can you get a free transfer between ferry and bus/train, though you can transfer from one ferry to another. I don't know whether the lack of farecard interoperability is the fault of NYC Ferries, the MTA, or both. I suspect that to the extent that it's true that ferry riders are wealthier than other transit riders, the lack of MetroCard support is a big factor.)
posted by enn at 7:09 AM on May 21, 2018
the problem with ferries is that you can only board a ferry on the shore
That's true, but you can ride a bike to the ferry and then use it for the last stretch in Manhattan as well (where the majority of offices are not close to a ferry terminal either). If you live fairly close to Manhattan you'd probably just bike in, but people living farther afield (eg, near the Rockaways) could definitely use this as a way to go.
I agree with everything enn said above, but I'd especially emphasize that politically, the ferries are not likely to be going away because they are under the complete control of NYC, and not the hybrid state/local stygian bureacracy of the MTA.
posted by whir at 7:25 AM on May 21, 2018
That's true, but you can ride a bike to the ferry and then use it for the last stretch in Manhattan as well (where the majority of offices are not close to a ferry terminal either). If you live fairly close to Manhattan you'd probably just bike in, but people living farther afield (eg, near the Rockaways) could definitely use this as a way to go.
I agree with everything enn said above, but I'd especially emphasize that politically, the ferries are not likely to be going away because they are under the complete control of NYC, and not the hybrid state/local stygian bureacracy of the MTA.
posted by whir at 7:25 AM on May 21, 2018
by the time the MTA mess is sorted out Canal street will be a proper canal again and we can use all the ferries we can get.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 AM on May 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 AM on May 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
FWIW, I've always thought the Staten Island Ferry was the best attraction in NYC.
( Full disclosure, we'd drop the kids off at the in-laws in SI, then they'd drop us off at the ferry. Ferry Ride, Taxi Ride, Overnight hotel room and a a concert, then the reverse. So, recreational use. )
I pity people who do that as part of a daily commute, however. ( Albany NY is 45 minutes to the furthest I've ever commuted, and a the times I drove ( 5am ) it was a cup of coffee from Stewart's, and cruise control all the way...
posted by mikelieman at 7:44 AM on May 21, 2018
( Full disclosure, we'd drop the kids off at the in-laws in SI, then they'd drop us off at the ferry. Ferry Ride, Taxi Ride, Overnight hotel room and a a concert, then the reverse. So, recreational use. )
I pity people who do that as part of a daily commute, however. ( Albany NY is 45 minutes to the furthest I've ever commuted, and a the times I drove ( 5am ) it was a cup of coffee from Stewart's, and cruise control all the way...
posted by mikelieman at 7:44 AM on May 21, 2018
That's true, but you can ride a bike
I think one of the things that bothers me most about bicycle evangelism is the assumption that everybody can ride a bike. No. This is not true, and it’s not helpful to pretend as though it is.
I mean the subways are also terrible, accessibility wise, but they’re not inherently inaccessible, they’re just neglected.
We need functioning, accessible mass transit. That means billions of dollars for the subway. Everything else is just window dressing.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:22 AM on May 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think one of the things that bothers me most about bicycle evangelism is the assumption that everybody can ride a bike. No. This is not true, and it’s not helpful to pretend as though it is.
I mean the subways are also terrible, accessibility wise, but they’re not inherently inaccessible, they’re just neglected.
We need functioning, accessible mass transit. That means billions of dollars for the subway. Everything else is just window dressing.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:22 AM on May 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Express buses aren't really city buses, though, at least not in the sense you mean. They connect, for the most part, more affluent remoter reaches of the outer boroughs with Manhattan (and charge accordingly). In other words, a somewhat similar demographic to the ferries.
Per WNYC's 2012-ish numbers, the NYC overall median household income is $50,711. In Queens's Community District 1, which contains Astoria and Long Island City, the median income is $49,432. In Brooklyn's Community District 10, which contains Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights, it's $53,500.
Manhattan, considered as a whole, will always push up the city's numbers as a whole. To me, the equity question should be considered on a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis, and there's a lot of poorer neighborhoods between Manhattan and Bay Ridge that would benefit from better access to Manhattan jobs. It's not an "austerity mindset" to object to better facilities being provided at lower cost to wealthier people. That Today freelancer ain't in the working class.
Here's what Human Transit has to say about the ferries.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Per WNYC's 2012-ish numbers, the NYC overall median household income is $50,711. In Queens's Community District 1, which contains Astoria and Long Island City, the median income is $49,432. In Brooklyn's Community District 10, which contains Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights, it's $53,500.
Manhattan, considered as a whole, will always push up the city's numbers as a whole. To me, the equity question should be considered on a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis, and there's a lot of poorer neighborhoods between Manhattan and Bay Ridge that would benefit from better access to Manhattan jobs. It's not an "austerity mindset" to object to better facilities being provided at lower cost to wealthier people. That Today freelancer ain't in the working class.
Here's what Human Transit has to say about the ferries.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Manhattan, considered as a whole, will always push up the city's numbers as a whole. To me, the equity question should be considered on a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis, and there's a lot of poorer neighborhoods between Manhattan and Bay Ridge that would benefit from better access to Manhattan jobs.
The ferry doesn't ignore those in-between neighborhoods—there are four other stops in Brooklyn along the way, and that's just the South Brooklyn line. The East River line serves three additional Brooklyn stops.
(And if we're going to talk about inter-borough inequities, where are all the outrage-bait pieces decrying the Staten Island ferry? At $70k Staten Island's median household income is the highest of any borough, and its 100%-subsidized ferry is pretty much the only damn thing that's free in New York.)
The Human Transit piece you link to is about a different ferry system, subsidized by the Port Authority (so, again, beyond the control of New York City government), with subsidies eight time those for NYC Ferries. I like Walker's blog, I liked his book, but he is deeply invested in the BRT fantasy,1 which colors his judgement of alternatives. The NYC Ferry system is not advertised on the basis of space, and its popularity is not predicated on the ferries being empty; people are turned away during peak commuting times.
1. In the US, BRT fails because of systemic over-privileging of immediate neighbors in development decisions and a culture that treats drivers' free storage of personal vehicles in the public way as a de facto property right. Every BRT project starts out promising signal priority, dedicated lanes, all the rest of it, and ends up as a regular bus with fancy paint. The Q52/Q53 Woodhaven Select Bus Service—the most recent to launch—is a case in point: it's only been open since November, the promised dedicated lane has already been turned over to private car parking on Saturdays in response to NIMBYs, and the promised signal priority deployment has now been pushed back, supposedly to the end of 2019. I will bet you a dollar that no signal priority system is ever implemented on that line. Another example: a family member takes the M60-SBS to work every day. Because the police refuse to enforce the painted bus lane, it is always blocked, with the result that traffic can easily mean the difference between a twenty-minute and and an hour-and-twenty-minute ride. It's no faster than a regular bus, except off-board fare collection means the cops come and hassle you for your ticket every other ride, because obviously preventing somebody from riding a bus for free is a more important use of police resources than than stopping commercial trucks from treating the bus lane on 125th Street as their private parking space.
posted by enn at 12:05 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
The ferry doesn't ignore those in-between neighborhoods—there are four other stops in Brooklyn along the way, and that's just the South Brooklyn line. The East River line serves three additional Brooklyn stops.
(And if we're going to talk about inter-borough inequities, where are all the outrage-bait pieces decrying the Staten Island ferry? At $70k Staten Island's median household income is the highest of any borough, and its 100%-subsidized ferry is pretty much the only damn thing that's free in New York.)
The Human Transit piece you link to is about a different ferry system, subsidized by the Port Authority (so, again, beyond the control of New York City government), with subsidies eight time those for NYC Ferries. I like Walker's blog, I liked his book, but he is deeply invested in the BRT fantasy,1 which colors his judgement of alternatives. The NYC Ferry system is not advertised on the basis of space, and its popularity is not predicated on the ferries being empty; people are turned away during peak commuting times.
1. In the US, BRT fails because of systemic over-privileging of immediate neighbors in development decisions and a culture that treats drivers' free storage of personal vehicles in the public way as a de facto property right. Every BRT project starts out promising signal priority, dedicated lanes, all the rest of it, and ends up as a regular bus with fancy paint. The Q52/Q53 Woodhaven Select Bus Service—the most recent to launch—is a case in point: it's only been open since November, the promised dedicated lane has already been turned over to private car parking on Saturdays in response to NIMBYs, and the promised signal priority deployment has now been pushed back, supposedly to the end of 2019. I will bet you a dollar that no signal priority system is ever implemented on that line. Another example: a family member takes the M60-SBS to work every day. Because the police refuse to enforce the painted bus lane, it is always blocked, with the result that traffic can easily mean the difference between a twenty-minute and and an hour-and-twenty-minute ride. It's no faster than a regular bus, except off-board fare collection means the cops come and hassle you for your ticket every other ride, because obviously preventing somebody from riding a bus for free is a more important use of police resources than than stopping commercial trucks from treating the bus lane on 125th Street as their private parking space.
posted by enn at 12:05 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
(I will say: I really wish the NYC Ferry routes had been designed following Jarrett Walker's advice in Human Transit. A grid of ferry lines, with a lot of short lines just going back and forth across the river, a few longer north-south routes, and lots of transfer points, would be a much better ferry system than the one we got.)
posted by enn at 12:08 PM on May 21, 2018
posted by enn at 12:08 PM on May 21, 2018
It always fascinates me the complaints about the transit system in the what is possibly the easiest city in the world to get around. Maybe the transit system isn't the easiest to understand, but there are usually multiple options to get wherever you want to go in NYC.
I wish my city had public transit as extensive as New York.
posted by prepmonkey at 1:11 PM on May 21, 2018
I wish my city had public transit as extensive as New York.
posted by prepmonkey at 1:11 PM on May 21, 2018
I think one of the things that bothers me most about bicycle evangelism is the assumption that everybody can ride a bike. No. This is not true, and it’s not helpful to pretend as though it is.
That's fair, and I should have qualified that adding a bike segment to the ferry opens up transit for some users, not implied that it's useful for everyone. But the people who can't or don't want to ride a bike aren't in a worse situation than they were before with the ferries present.
As a transplant from the Bay Area the subway system has always seemed like it would be a complete nightmare from an accessibility standpoint, to the point where I'm surprised it's legal in its current state. I almost never see wheelchair users on subway cars, but I would quite frequently see them on various Bay Area public transit systems, and for all of those systems' flaws (don't get me started), accessibility always seemed to be a high priority for them.
posted by whir at 1:29 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's fair, and I should have qualified that adding a bike segment to the ferry opens up transit for some users, not implied that it's useful for everyone. But the people who can't or don't want to ride a bike aren't in a worse situation than they were before with the ferries present.
As a transplant from the Bay Area the subway system has always seemed like it would be a complete nightmare from an accessibility standpoint, to the point where I'm surprised it's legal in its current state. I almost never see wheelchair users on subway cars, but I would quite frequently see them on various Bay Area public transit systems, and for all of those systems' flaws (don't get me started), accessibility always seemed to be a high priority for them.
posted by whir at 1:29 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
what is possibly the easiest city in the world to get around
I don't entirely disagree, but I think there is a distinction between the ways that you use the system to get around when you're visiting here, or when you're going around the city to do stuff after work (which by and large works very well), and the ways that you need to use the system if you are commuting to work on a daily basis; most of the grumbling you see online is from (and about) the latter group of people.
posted by whir at 1:39 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't entirely disagree, but I think there is a distinction between the ways that you use the system to get around when you're visiting here, or when you're going around the city to do stuff after work (which by and large works very well), and the ways that you need to use the system if you are commuting to work on a daily basis; most of the grumbling you see online is from (and about) the latter group of people.
posted by whir at 1:39 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
As a transplant from the Bay Area the subway system has always seemed like it would be a complete nightmare from an accessibility standpoint, to the point where I'm surprised it's legal in its current state.
FWIW, my understanding is that the Bay Area is particularly good from an accessibility standpoint generally. The thing about the ADA* is that requirements don't trigger until you renovate and therefore the MTA tries very, very hard to not avoid "renovating" stations. I'm actually curious what that means for all the stations on the C that they're closing for months at a time, none of which have elevator access.
the ways that you need to use the system if you are commuting to work on a daily basis; most of the grumbling you see online is from (and about) the latter group of people.
For me, it's actually the weekends that are annoying. After three weekends of no 1 train service in my neighborhood (meaning there was no subway service for Kingsbridge and Riverdale), we had no A train service this weekend, and even though I remembered to check, there were so many changes on the A train that I missed the one that mattered to me. Luckily, I was taking the 1 anyway and heard an announcement about the lack of A train service before I needed the A.
It's also worth noting that people grumble about the trains in the same way people make small talk about the weather.
*ADA compliance really a lower bar than "truly accessible", but it's at least a framework for discussion.
posted by hoyland at 4:54 AM on May 22, 2018
FWIW, my understanding is that the Bay Area is particularly good from an accessibility standpoint generally. The thing about the ADA* is that requirements don't trigger until you renovate and therefore the MTA tries very, very hard to not avoid "renovating" stations. I'm actually curious what that means for all the stations on the C that they're closing for months at a time, none of which have elevator access.
the ways that you need to use the system if you are commuting to work on a daily basis; most of the grumbling you see online is from (and about) the latter group of people.
For me, it's actually the weekends that are annoying. After three weekends of no 1 train service in my neighborhood (meaning there was no subway service for Kingsbridge and Riverdale), we had no A train service this weekend, and even though I remembered to check, there were so many changes on the A train that I missed the one that mattered to me. Luckily, I was taking the 1 anyway and heard an announcement about the lack of A train service before I needed the A.
It's also worth noting that people grumble about the trains in the same way people make small talk about the weather.
*ADA compliance really a lower bar than "truly accessible", but it's at least a framework for discussion.
posted by hoyland at 4:54 AM on May 22, 2018
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L’pocalypse dread aside, an honorary New York bagel should be awarded to this source for general New Yorkness
Also we really are completely fucked and no one knows it yet
posted by schadenfrau at 10:22 AM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]