Experts Agree That Memories Of Rare Music Can Persist For Many Years

May 5, 2023 9:28 AM

Lost Ones: Decades later, Ben Ratliff, former pop music critic at The New York Times, can recall the details of a song he heard once, but that it is impossible for you to listen to. I’m sorry to report that it cannot be streamed. It cannot be purchased on a compact disc or a cassette, used or new. There’s no rare vinyl pressing listed on Discogs. Ratliff’s bit of recollected music criticism, shared over email, is a kind of ghost story.
posted by ellieBOA (52 comments total)

This reminds me of the beguiling Reply All episode "The Case of the Missing Hit."
posted by Jeanne at 9:56 AM on May 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

My goodness, lost songs. Obviously I haven't sat in on any important recording sessions, but I did buy a lot of cassettes from tiny bands in the nineties and when those break or get lost, the music gets lost. Records hold up better; I've still got all my records.

I used to have a cassette compilation by Nothing Painted Blue, Logorrhea. I loved that cassette. Even now I know the songs by heart and I'd say that I sing "Up With Upland" to myself about once a week. Some of the songs were recorded on other albums/EPs (of course I loved my versions best) but a few of them are just...gone.

Not a particularly famous or successful band and you'd never call their work or their style profound - just a very nineties kind of poppy punky college rocky music with a very nineties kind of vocal. Inexplicably out of line with what I usually like. But those were good songs! They had a consistent sensibility, they weren't mean songs or particularly trying to be hip...it was a nice release from the ongoing "who is more punk" death-struggle in my then social circle.

I was out sick from college the whole of one January so I only music I had with me was what I'd brought to listen to on the bus home. I must have brought some super hip stuff with (because of course one could not travel without one's ego props) but I've forgotten what it was because the only things I really listened to that month were Nothing Painted Blue, my best friend's copy of Camper Van Beethoven's Telephone Free Landslide Victory and my high school copy of the Pet Shop Boys' Behavior.
posted by Frowner at 9:56 AM on May 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

Way outside the genre and settings talked about in the article (which is really interesting, thanks, ellieBOA) but the piece that jumped to mind for me as soon as I read the title comes from live music, which I suppose is a slightly different experience. You go into live music knowing that something may happen that won't be recorded or replicated, so there isn't quite the same frustration of "I would be able to hear this again, if only that version was released" but I can absolutely understand the sense of "I want so badly to hear this" lingering on and on.

On preview, YES, Frowner. For some reason I recently was recalling a local singer-songwriter in Baltimore from the heyday of the 90s coffee shop shows who had a couple songs I absolutely loved. Her first album was on cassette, and is long gone now, and only snippets of songs that I'm not even certain I remember correctly remain, along with the shadow of how listening to them made me feel.
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:12 AM on May 5, 2023

Frowner: Franklin Bruno, 0PB's songwriter, is still out there doing great work. And "Up With Upland" is on their (great!) odds 'n' sods collection Emotional Discipline.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 10:17 AM on May 5, 2023

This is a special sort of weird torture if you're a songwriter, because it can happen with songs you wrote yourself and maybe never even wrote down or recorded. They're not just impractically hard to track down, they literally only exist in some nest of neurons in your own brain that you may or may not ever manage to get full access to again.
posted by cortex at 10:28 AM on May 5, 2023 [15 favorites]

cortex: Or in some notebook. Somewhere. Maybe.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 10:30 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Oh, wait, maybe it was in a textfile on in a directory on a hard drive four computers ago that might have gotten saved in recursive machine transfer ad hoc file backup schemes. If I look through literally fifteen years of files maybe I'll find it.

But I know at an inescapable, earworm level that it had a four note motif that went like this.
posted by cortex at 10:39 AM on May 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

Could he like, hum a few bars...
posted by sammyo at 10:39 AM on May 5, 2023

I've got this song stuck in my head, it was the intro theme to this TV show, and all I remember is one character was painting a door, and another opens the door and gets a paint roller to the face...
posted by xedrik at 10:41 AM on May 5, 2023 [8 favorites]

What's especially aggravating is that there are apps like Shazam that are supposed to help you identify songs, but they seem to be useless if you're just humming it into your phone. I had a hell of a time with "Strawberry Letter 23" until I finally got around to watching Jackie Brown and heard it on the soundtrack. I've got another one right now that is similarly elusive.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:42 AM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

Could he like, hum a few bars...

Soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap...
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:43 AM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm thinking about the pile of art on my hard drive that's about 90% finished, including the graphic novel I started before the pandemic, and really, this exists for all creative work. There are creative works that get finished and make it into an industrial distribution machine to wide acclaim. There are works that do not. Some of them are great. Some of them have the seeds of greatness in them, if only they'd gotten one last final round of polish.

Ultimately it's all ephemeral anyway. Some of it just takes longer to vanish.
posted by egypturnash at 10:47 AM on May 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

As a person who starts way too many artistic endeavors I have learned to embrace this side effect by occasionally (every 7years or so) destroying all unfinished works on my hard drives.

That way, when I think I have a remembered fragment of some track or whatever, I’ll only search for a a little bit until I remember “oh it probably perished in the Great Purge of 2015”
posted by Doleful Creature at 10:58 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

My lost song is a Sigur Rós collaboration they did with an Icelandic-American blues and folk musician called KK (who's best known outside Iceland for having played Riley Blue's dad in Sense8, but is generally considered a national treasure in Iceland).

In the years before they released Ágætis byrjun, Sigur Rós would play constantly in Reykjavík. I must've seen them twenty times. Once, they and KK opened for Will Oldham, when he was touring for the I See a Darkness album (from whence the title track, covered by Johnny Cash, comes from). During KK's set, Sigur Rós joined him, and they did a blues song together. I don't know if it was an original or an old one, but it was deeply haunting. Sigur Rós were in their everything-must-soar phase, but the blues weighed them down. It was beautiful, and as far as I can tell, it was the only time this song was ever performed, and if it was recorded it was never released.

It was like watching a very ungainly-looking bird take flight, but once it had caught an updraft, it was at home in the sky.
posted by Kattullus at 11:02 AM on May 5, 2023 [6 favorites]

I remember I was at a concert and before the show started they were playing some dance-type song on the PA that was really catchy. I asked one of the people at the sound booth what the song was but they didn't know. I'm pretty sure I've never heard that song since but it was so long ago there's no way for me to remember anymore.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:07 AM on May 5, 2023

Oh and Ross Scarano wasn’t kidding about Guilty Girl by Kelis. It sure sounds like a single.
posted by Kattullus at 11:10 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

My recent "lost song" experience was trying to find any evidence that a band that my sisters listened to in high school in Chattanooga TN in the '80s ever existed. I ended up getting confirmation from someone who was an area DJ at the time that, yes, they sounded familiar and she thinks she played them on the air, but we found zero evidence that they'd been a thing, let alone a YouTube upload of a 4 track cassette tape languishing in some tens of views purgatory.

But as the music industry dives into obliterating itself with trying to trace (and pay royalties for) every influence that might have given rise to the vibe of a particular composition, drowning creation in legalism, I have to wonder if maybe we shouldn't be celebrating the fact that a song, or an interpretation of it, can be lost.

Maybe performance doesn't need to be recorded, maybe the experience is enough and we shouldn't be trying as hard to relive that experience as to go find, and make, new ones....
posted by straw at 11:10 AM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

I have a whole collection of these in my head:

1) An indie song from 2008 ish, with a jaunty instrumental section, but I've never heard it again other than one time in a bar.

2) A Tom Petty cover band played what I assume was a Tom Petty song, but I've not found it yet. It was more rockin' than Tom tends to be.

3) A song from the college radio 1995 - a lot of lyrics about water, and a heavily chorused guitar.

4) A song that references Mojo Nixon (maybe? I think) and maybe includes the line "if you are feeling young and bored , don't go robbing convenience stores".

I have a few that I have actually found, like Fabulous by Happyhead, also members of Shriekback.

The radio station in my head has DJs that never say song titles or bands.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:28 AM on May 5, 2023

Beethoven was supposed to have been an incredible improviser.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:56 AM on May 5, 2023

Okay, so if anyone is now trying to remember a TV show where a kid was desperately trying to remember a song he was losing, it was The Adventures of Pete and Pete, S1E13 (as reviewed by The AV Club).

And the song was Summerbaby by Polaris.
posted by MrVisible at 12:00 PM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

2) A Tom Petty cover band played what I assume was a Tom Petty song, but I've not found it yet. It was more rockin' than Tom tends to be.

Could it be something by The Jayhawks? The Jayhawks toured with Tom Petty, and their song "Waiting for The Sun" has a lot of similarities with "Mary Jane's Last Dance," but The Jayhawks song predates the Petty song. The Jayhawks are not a Petty tribute band, but there's definitely similarities because both Petty and The Jayhawks are hugely influenced by country rock era Byrds. I saw Jayhawks when they were at their college radio peak when Hollywood Town Hall came out in 1992, but I think they still tour occasionally even now, because they still have a fan base in their home state of Minnesota.
posted by jonp72 at 12:03 PM on May 5, 2023

For me, my long songs are things I sang in my English primary school in the 1980s. They've been stuck in my head as ear worms ever since. I've never been able to locate them. The worst thing is that I know maybe half the lyrics but will never be able to figure out the rest. For example...

With a little bit of water,
With a little bit of H2O
You'll find, given time,
They start to grow

With a little bit of ___
With a little bit of __ __ ___
You'll surely see
That they will grow and grow and grow!

Plants like __ __
Plants like __ __
Plants like __ __
Very __ indeed!

Plants like __ __
Plants like __ __
Plants like __ __
All these are grown from seeds!

There was also a kids musical about the Golden Goose which had some beautiful songs I still sing to myself sometimes. Completely unfindable.
posted by EllaEm at 12:04 PM on May 5, 2023

I have two or three specific songs I can recall pretty thoroughly that I know I'll probably never hear again. They were on a tape a friend gave me in 1989, and were by the late Bob Scruton, who as far as I know was a singer of humorous folk songs at pubs and clubs around St. Albans. No idea why I remember the songs so clearly, but maybe it's the lyrics. One song, "chain store plastic bag" was about alternative uses for plastic bags - "write a song about it maybe, or suffocate your baby" was a particularly strong line, I thought.
posted by pipeski at 12:15 PM on May 5, 2023

There's a song I heard once, probably on WHFS in the mid to late nineties, that I have never been able to find any trace of. 25 or 30 years later I can only vaguely remember that it had an amusing contrast of sweet duo vocals and the storyline, which I think implied a meteor had landed nearby and zombies or aliens or whatever were invading, and a chorus that went something like "our brother and sister who we love are on the stairs." Sometimes you just have to accept evanescence, I guess.
posted by tavella at 12:28 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

There's a song I heard twice - once on MTV late at night in 1997 or so, and then again in a Stop & Shop in 2005 or 2006. I know some of the lyrics in fragments, but nothing more, and I can find no trace of this song's existence online. As far as I can tell, it's a phantom.

The prechorus is a woman singing, "Ah-yi-ah-yi-ya, ah-yi-ah-yaaaaa" with no backing music.

I might have to do what Reply All did and re-record as much as I can remember to preserve it for ... something.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:29 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

An old college roommate had a cassette of songs (demos, maybe?) from someone she knew from home (Chicago area) that I played all the time - I liked it way more than she did. I have no idea what happened to that guy. He had a Marc Cohn-esque vibe. Lost songs indeed.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:31 PM on May 5, 2023

Over the years, the magic of the internet has allowed me to identify just about all the mysterious remembered snippets of music from my 1980s adolescence. But there are a few songs from my early '90s college years that I have never been able to track down. It is remarkable how long these traces linger in our synapses.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:38 PM on May 5, 2023

My freshman year of college in 1981 at CMU, I and two friends were in a "band". We recorded a song "My Baby was a Teenage Mercenary" with keyboards, drums and vocals on a cassette recorder. One band member was a DJ for the college radio station, so he transferred the song to a cart, and the song went on occasional rotation on the station, sometimes when even when we didn't call to request it.

Twenty years later, I get an email from someone who was a fan of the song, who had searched for it by name, and found a 10-year-old usenet post of mine where I mentioned the song . The entire story (with a recording of the song) can be found on a 10-year-old post on my blog.
posted by ShooBoo at 12:39 PM on May 5, 2023 [11 favorites]

One of my earliest AskMefi questions was about a song I remembered hearing on the radio in 1981-82 ish that no one else in the world seemed to remember. Mefite iconomy recognized the song as Time Bomb by the group Lake. Another example of how everything got played on the radio back then.
posted by wittgenstein at 12:41 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

I loved all the cool music for the transitions to/from ad breaks and guest walk-ins on Craig Ferguson's late show. I've often tried to find out where it came from, whether it was available online, etc. but have always come up empty. I assume it was canned stock music licensed by the show (as opposed to being created exclusively for it, what with Craig always talking about a low budget), in which case it should surely be available somewhere for others customers...
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:53 PM on May 5, 2023

I've got this song stuck in my head, it was the intro theme to this TV show, and all I remember is one character was painting a door, and another opens the door and gets a paint roller to the face...

I remember this one, it's on YouTube though...

https://youtu.be/QrGrOK8oZG8?t=29
posted by jeremias at 12:56 PM on May 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

I have a found-song story! For 16 years, I had a snippet of lyric stuck in my head: "Say what you mean, say what you mean..."

I remembered exactly where I heard it and why I remembered it - lying in bed staring at the ceiling, failing relationship, all that stuff - but many searches over many years turned up nothing. It's a very common bit of lyric that shows up in many songs, but never the right one.

But then one day a couple of months ago I decided to click on a random album in a "greatest albums" discussion and leave it playing in the background...
posted by clawsoon at 1:04 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

I've got this song stuck in my head, it was the intro theme to this TV show, and all I remember is one character was painting a door, and another opens the door and gets a paint roller to the face...

Xedrik is, of course, riffing on one of the great white whales of AskMe.

I do want to highlight that last line from the article, which I hope appears to me in thirty foot letters of fire next time I try to hunt down something that is better left in the past:

Let the great thing have its ungovernable value.

posted by zamboni at 1:44 PM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

and maybe includes the line "if you are feeling young and bored , don't go robbing convenience stores".

For what it's worth, the only hit for this phrase on Google is this thread.
posted by hippybear at 1:57 PM on May 5, 2023

4) A song that references Mojo Nixon (maybe? I think) and maybe includes the line "if you are feeling young and bored , don't go robbing convenience stores".

Could this possibly be Punkrock Girl?
posted by Mchelly at 2:37 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Many years ago in a far away land called Philadelphia, I was in several bands that never really went anywhere. We did have a pile of songs though that we recorded (including a hardcore version of Happy Together). Somewhere I have a cassette, with SOME of those songs, though by no means all. We had a minor hit on a local college station, a song called 380 lbs. about a former boss several of us had that is not on the cassette I have. Out of the songs I remember, that's the one I can't remember the music to. Probably the best was a song written by Danny called Choke & Broke, the song that had the best lyrics (and I was so jealous) my favorite part goes something like this "No running water, my stomachs empty, sleep in the subway, ISN'T IT UGLY?! there's like 10 people that ever heard most of these songs. Most are probably dead by now, but I find myself referring to these songs as if they're big pop hits that everyone knows, and no one of my current acquaintance has ever heard them.
posted by evilDoug at 3:12 PM on May 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

I saw this post and thought of what I thought would be a lost song from my college days and a local band that was around at that time. I haven't heard it since those days, although the lyrics have popped up in my mind now and then when the right context comes along.

So, I just googled, figuring I wouldn't have much luck and, nope, it's well attested and readily available.

So, Metafilter, I give you Bold Rat.
posted by ursus_comiter at 4:30 PM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

My first AskMe was about an album I missed. Cyndi Craven's 1980-something album Lessons is now available for download several places online, including here, and I moved back to the Atlanta area, so I've gotten to see her perform again, occasionally. And in her day job, she's the web designer for the Frank Hamilton School, where I'm in an Irish Tunes class.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:44 PM on May 5, 2023

I still listen to a fair bit of college radio. So for me there's still a fair bit of "what was that cool grove?" zipping by. Of course I can still look up some playlists online. But sometimes they're incomplete.
posted by ovvl at 6:25 PM on May 5, 2023

wittgenstein, I am pretty sure I still own that Lake album. A couple of decent songs on there.
posted by Windopaene at 6:45 PM on May 5, 2023

As a College DJ, I played a ton of songs by Ian Brennan, specifically Ian Brennan and the Faith Healers. I may have been the only DJ in Maine (and then in Hawaii) to play his records (which I felt was a HUGE MUSICAL INJUSTICE). He has one song called "Heroin" with a chorus that I sing all the time to this day. Possibly more frequently than he has sung it. It clearly existed, and if I was willing to buy a new (whatever analog media it is on) I might be able to track down a used copy, but its totally not available online anywhere to the best of my obsessive search skills.

Anyhow, the point is (and I haven't made it yet) that "Heroin" was that song for me and it took me years of searching to confirm that it even existed. There's like 40 other songs that I played ALL THE TIME that are likewise not available online - some that aren't even referenced online. Like the band released a record or two, got some airplay, and then completely vanished without even a Discogs reference. You'd be surprised how much sleep I've lost over this.

This article was a big trigger. Going to be doing some more deep dives for Ian Brennan tunes.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:58 PM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

The prechorus is a woman singing, "Ah-yi-ah-yi-ya, ah-yi-ah-yaaaaa" with no backing music.

It's not an exact match--the phonemes are different and there is music, percussion and a stringed instrument (a guitar?) low in the mix--but I immediately thought of ... [hums a bit, groans, looks off in the distance, humming and bobbing his head, eventually starts remembering lyrics from a song last heard 20+ years ago so that a bit of googling leads him to "I May Want a Man" by Joanne Shenandoah].

Probably not what you were looking for? But yes, memories of songs can really stick around.
posted by johnofjack at 7:03 PM on May 5, 2023

1adam12: Dar Williams 1997 Are You Out There.
posted by ursus_comiter at 7:41 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Riding in the back of my fatherʻs 1951 Buick meant being acoustically wrapped up in the easy-listening tunes played on his favored Paterson NJ radio station, WPAT. Easy easy easy listening, that is: Liberace, Perry Como, throbbing strings of Mantovani, Roger Williams and the like on casual rotation. And every once in awhile, a certain vocal rhumba came on whose opening line was mysteriously intriguing -- " Who stole the beans from my maraccas? / Who stole the chik-a-chik from my chikachika chik chik, chikachika chik chik ..."

Flash forward about 5 decades. Iʻm searching out weirdly exotic cover songs for my neo-exotica band to play. "Who Stole the Beans," if that was the title, seemed a sublime match. It took assiduous internet deep diving, but one day, I thought I hit the bullʻs-eye. Someone had attributed the song to the Cuban musician Edmondo Ros, a well known bandleader of the time. Trouble was, no actual recording of the song seemed to surface on the internet, with one odd exception -- a VHS tape of an British TV detective show, in which Senor Rosʻs ensemble played the tune in the background of some detectivey-noir supper-club scene. I bought the old tape, tried playing it only to learn about the existence of the terribly unAmerican PAL videotape format. This led me down a playback-machine quest rabbit-hole, ultimately ending with a costly-at-the-time purchase from a reluctant video editor. Played the tape, and there it was. ... except of course, the performance abruptly cut off at the end the 30-odd second scene. Oh well, at least I wasnʻt just hallucinating that the song existed ...
posted by Droll Lord at 9:33 PM on May 5, 2023 [6 favorites]

There was a song i heard once on MTV's 120 min where the main refrain of a song was a person yelling "PONG!" and the song was about the game pong. I thought it was "The Screaming Blue Messiahs"but it is not. Would have been about 1986.
posted by boilermonster at 12:16 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]

I've been haunted by the idea of lost songs as long as I can remember. I'd hear a song on the radio and love it, never to be able to find it again. Sometimes, if I was lucky, I'd hear it again and learn its name and artist.

I'd swear that there's a song by the Thompson Twins that was on MTV I've never been able to find again. More likely I have found the song and my recollection of it is warped by time or it was really someone else and I've been barking up the wrong tree. (I've listened to the Twins' entire 80s catalog since then. No dice.)

Click here for a lost song anecdote from the early 90s

In 1991 I heard a song on KDHX 88.1 in St. Louis during a college radio type show and I loved it on first listen. Of course they'd played a slew of songs in a row and I didn't catch the name of the song or the band. I thought about it quite a few times but there was no good way to find the name of the song... tried tuning in again and again, never caught it again.

In February 1992 I went to see The Psychedelic Furs on the World Outside tour. A local band opened for them. I almost didn't catch the opener - I had never heard of them and the only reason I did catch them was that I wanted to be as close to the stage as possible, which meant being there early.

Turns out that was the band (Pale Divine) and if I remember right they opened the set with the song, "Straight to Goodbye."

The band broke up shortly after that. The guitarist (Richard Fortus) went on to play in Richard Butler's post-Furs band Love Spit Love and then played with Guns 'n Roses. The odds against hearing the song again were pretty large, so I've felt pretty fortunate about my luck ever since.

Anyway... I think about lost songs a lot. Related, I think a lot about the last time somebody listens to a song. The idea that someone will be the last person to listen to a song, forever, and then it just will never be experienced again.

I'm low key obsessed with out of print music and songs that might have been played on the radio a few times but never even reached "one hit wonder" type status. Albums and CDs that had really small pressings and the remaining copies are gathering dust, unloved.

Bands that managed to make one or two albums or maybe just a single, and then had to give it up and get day jobs. I just know that there's some amazing gems out there but they just never quite found their audience at the right time, and now they're just in a kind of limbo. Somebody could still discover them, but probably won't, and it's sad.
posted by jzb at 9:03 AM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

The one song I can never find the full version of anymore is Indiana Wants Me, where at the end or start or both there were police sirens?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 10:37 AM on May 6, 2023

Maybe one day the album made by the now-split couple I lived with will be released. Anything can happen at the end of history, right?

I lived through much of their first album being gestated and born. I have their first album in my head, and it’s possible we are the only three people who ever will. I have their first release in my cloud music collection, and it’s possible no one else does or ever will.

I don’t know if I’ll ever see those two people ever again, and I don’t know if I’ll ever have an opportunity to identify one of their songs. But I’ll keep my ears open and my mind limber.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:55 AM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

The_Vegetables: 3) A song from the college radio 1995 - a lot of lyrics about water, and a heavily chorused guitar.

“Water” by Eggstone, 1994
posted by scrowdid at 7:30 AM on May 7, 2023

Nobody knows "Everyone Knows" (from the excellent /r/Lostwave)

The song
posted by Rhaomi at 4:07 PM on May 7, 2023

Very long user name: is it possible you are mixing up Indiana Wants Me with The Night Chicago Died, which does start with sirens, and came out around the same part of the 70s?
posted by wittgenstein at 1:42 AM on May 8, 2023

1adam12: Dar Williams 1997 Are You Out There.

Thanks for trying but no - it's a very straightforward rock radio kind of song, and most of the vocal leads are done by a male vocalist. The chorus has lyrics that are something like:

"Ah-yi-ah-yi-ya, ah-yi-ah-yaaaaa....

Feels like something could change,
Feels like something should change,
Feels like something could change,
Feels like something should!

(chorus)

I feel! Like a wannabe superstar,
I feel! Like (something then something),
I feel! Like a (something then something else,"
I feel! Like (something then something."

That's all I've got.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:59 AM on May 8, 2023 [1 favorite]