"Everything completely changed when Disney entered the picture."
December 1, 2013 8:05 PM Subscribe
Though age-wise my daughter was right in their wheelhouse, she never really got into the Jonas Brothers, though she did enjoy the TV show, which I actually though was much better written than the average Disney Channel sitcom. They seem like decent guys and good musicians. I hope they can have post-superstardom success like the Hansen brothers.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:41 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by Rock Steady at 8:41 PM on December 1, 2013
Oh, man. Until I read Rock Steady's comment, I totally identified the Jonases and the Hansons. And I also thought the Jonases were still popular with the children. Someone will now tell me the horrifying fates of the Olsens, Miley Cyrus, and that 14-year-old bubblegum pop sensation Justin Bieber.
posted by Nomyte at 8:50 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Nomyte at 8:50 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
My biggest wish for people like this is that they quit the entertainment industry, go to really expensive colleges, major in whatever the fuck they want, and pursue successful careers in whatever interests them, thanks to their plentiful material resources.
Unfortunately that pretty much never happens. But I believe in you, Jonas Brothers! You can do it! Underwater Basket Weaving class of 2017!
posted by Sara C. at 8:53 PM on December 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
Unfortunately that pretty much never happens. But I believe in you, Jonas Brothers! You can do it! Underwater Basket Weaving class of 2017!
posted by Sara C. at 8:53 PM on December 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
Celebrity culture in a nutshell:
My 21st birthday, I fell down a flight of stairs. I was unconscious that time, and my whole team was scared to death that somebody was going to get a picture.
posted by mannequito at 8:57 PM on December 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
My 21st birthday, I fell down a flight of stairs. I was unconscious that time, and my whole team was scared to death that somebody was going to get a picture.
posted by mannequito at 8:57 PM on December 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Someone will now tell me the horrifying fates of the Olsens, Miley Cyrus, and that 14-year-old bubblegum pop sensation Justin Bieber.
That horrible fate of massive success and riches and the ire of old people on message boards?
posted by xmutex at 9:06 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
That horrible fate of massive success and riches and the ire of old people on message boards?
posted by xmutex at 9:06 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Oh man I have a Joe Jonas story but I can't share it without incriminating one of the other persons involved. Basically, he is a pretty decent guy but he has some insane fans.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:11 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:11 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
"I don’t even smoke weed that often anymore." -- Joe Jonas. (I'm sure it is just in Washington State and Colorado.)
I did some acting and TV work when I was a kid. No, not Disney Channel. You know which kids were "all right" at the end of it? Those with involved parents. You need adults to protect the kids from the adults... and sometimes from the other kids.
posted by andreaazure at 10:19 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I did some acting and TV work when I was a kid. No, not Disney Channel. You know which kids were "all right" at the end of it? Those with involved parents. You need adults to protect the kids from the adults... and sometimes from the other kids.
posted by andreaazure at 10:19 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
That was a pretty great article showing a lot more maturity and honest reflection about the life he had lived than I was expecting from a 24 year old.
Disney has been chewing up talented children and spitting them out as broken young adults for decades now, starting way back with Annette Funicello. Annette managed to break out of the Disney hold by wearing bikinis (not one-piece suits) during the Beach movies she made. She also didn't have much of a career after 1969.
Other Disney kids have been a bit more fortunate, although much more conservative with their choices. Lisa Whelchel was a Mousketeer, went on to play Blair in The Facts Of Life, and finally became a Christian recording artist and Christian author. In some respects, this may be the paragon of Ideal Paths for Disney kids.
Others are more famous names who have broken out of the Disney mold entirely. Christina Aguilera, Ryan Gosling, Britney Spears, and Justin Timberlake were all Mousketeers.
And those are just the Mousketeers. There are entire channels full of child actors and singers that Disney has used (and I use that word deliberately) over the years. Miley Cyrus is only the most recent one in the headlines.
(And the South Park episode about Britney which ends with the hordes turning away from her and focussing on Miley has become basically prophetic when viewed through the lens of history.)
I hope Joe and his brothers can figure out what they are doing and how to do it in a way which creates beautiful art in the world that is respected, not just successful, and that they can find personal peace and happiness while doing it. The fact that this one of them seems to be thinking deeply about his experience gives me hope for all three.
posted by hippybear at 10:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Disney has been chewing up talented children and spitting them out as broken young adults for decades now, starting way back with Annette Funicello. Annette managed to break out of the Disney hold by wearing bikinis (not one-piece suits) during the Beach movies she made. She also didn't have much of a career after 1969.
Other Disney kids have been a bit more fortunate, although much more conservative with their choices. Lisa Whelchel was a Mousketeer, went on to play Blair in The Facts Of Life, and finally became a Christian recording artist and Christian author. In some respects, this may be the paragon of Ideal Paths for Disney kids.
Others are more famous names who have broken out of the Disney mold entirely. Christina Aguilera, Ryan Gosling, Britney Spears, and Justin Timberlake were all Mousketeers.
And those are just the Mousketeers. There are entire channels full of child actors and singers that Disney has used (and I use that word deliberately) over the years. Miley Cyrus is only the most recent one in the headlines.
(And the South Park episode about Britney which ends with the hordes turning away from her and focussing on Miley has become basically prophetic when viewed through the lens of history.)
I hope Joe and his brothers can figure out what they are doing and how to do it in a way which creates beautiful art in the world that is respected, not just successful, and that they can find personal peace and happiness while doing it. The fact that this one of them seems to be thinking deeply about his experience gives me hope for all three.
posted by hippybear at 10:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Disney has been chewing up talented children and spitting them out as broken young adults for decades now, starting way back with Annette Funicello.
Even earlier, and with far more tragic results.
posted by anazgnos at 10:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
Even earlier, and with far more tragic results.
posted by anazgnos at 10:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
Joe Jonas of the now-defunct Jonas Brothers
sorry, did I miss something?
posted by philip-random at 11:12 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
sorry, did I miss something?
posted by philip-random at 11:12 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Disney should host an official graduation for its child stars when they reach 18. Parents and directors reminisce, child star sings bubblegum pop hit, some super fan tweens get to meet their idol, everyone has that fresh scrubbed look, and then the Disney VP for Exploiting Talented Children thanks them for all their hard work and wishes them well in their future non-Disney endeavors as an adult.
Disney would get to distance themselves from child stars about to go through all of adolescence at once in a messy public fashion, parents of fans would get official notice that this actor is no longer on the role model role, and actors and singers wouldn't have to work so hard to distance themselves from Disney by doing stupid shit.
Plus I assume there'd be cake.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:13 PM on December 1, 2013 [28 favorites]
Disney would get to distance themselves from child stars about to go through all of adolescence at once in a messy public fashion, parents of fans would get official notice that this actor is no longer on the role model role, and actors and singers wouldn't have to work so hard to distance themselves from Disney by doing stupid shit.
Plus I assume there'd be cake.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:13 PM on December 1, 2013 [28 favorites]
sorry, did I miss something?
October 30, 2013, Good Morning America
I'm not going to say you MISSED anything, but this did happen in the recent past.
posted by hippybear at 11:24 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
October 30, 2013, Good Morning America
I'm not going to say you MISSED anything, but this did happen in the recent past.
posted by hippybear at 11:24 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, Eyebrows, it would be an official notice that it's now perfectly OK to lust after said former child stars.
But I'll save my actual lusting for pretty much the entire cast of all the Harry Potter movies, professors included.
posted by Sara C. at 11:29 PM on December 1, 2013
But I'll save my actual lusting for pretty much the entire cast of all the Harry Potter movies, professors included.
posted by Sara C. at 11:29 PM on December 1, 2013
(And the South Park episode about Britney which ends with the hordes turning away from her and focussing on Miley has become basically prophetic when viewed through the lens of history.)
One of the most endearing things about the movie Josie and The Pussycats is they actually went and named the featured Boy Band "Du Jour".
posted by mikelieman at 1:27 AM on December 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
One of the most endearing things about the movie Josie and The Pussycats is they actually went and named the featured Boy Band "Du Jour".
posted by mikelieman at 1:27 AM on December 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
Am I being cynical in thinking that this piece is just another piece of marketing? The timing of it so that people are still aware of the whole Miley thing but not so near that it's overshadowed by it; the salacious revelation of drug use (pressured into it by Miley! Daily Mail already has an article about 'Miley Made Me Do It, no joke); the suggestion that he's a more authentic pop star than Miley (not using the same hit makers because he wanted to do his own thing) with his wild beard but perfectly manicured eyebrows.
I don't doubt for a second the real distress he describes of finding yourself a star and the kind of searching loneliness that brings, and he sounds much more mature than I had expected, but so much of this feels like carefully selected tabloid fodder. I won't be surprised if he releases an acoustic single within the month, just in time for Christmas.
posted by litleozy at 2:50 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't doubt for a second the real distress he describes of finding yourself a star and the kind of searching loneliness that brings, and he sounds much more mature than I had expected, but so much of this feels like carefully selected tabloid fodder. I won't be surprised if he releases an acoustic single within the month, just in time for Christmas.
posted by litleozy at 2:50 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm waiting for one of the Jonas brothers to start watching Pasolini movies and listening to Jacques Brel.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:30 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 3:30 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Now that I’m 24 and have control of my life...
What must that be like? I'm 38 and I've never had control of my life.
posted by wabbittwax at 3:49 AM on December 2, 2013 [7 favorites]
What must that be like? I'm 38 and I've never had control of my life.
posted by wabbittwax at 3:49 AM on December 2, 2013 [7 favorites]
What must that be like? I'm 38 and I've never had control of my life.
I think the subtext of that is "as opposed to Disney having control". My life's wack-a-doo as well, but at least I don't have someone second-guessing every choice I consider because "Mickey wouldn't like it" or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on December 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think the subtext of that is "as opposed to Disney having control". My life's wack-a-doo as well, but at least I don't have someone second-guessing every choice I consider because "Mickey wouldn't like it" or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on December 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
At least Disney didn't make him shoot his own dog and then toss him out for unwholesome faggotry, like Tommy Kirk.
posted by sonascope at 4:41 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by sonascope at 4:41 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
My biggest wish for people like this is that they quit the entertainment industry, go to really expensive colleges, major in whatever the fuck they want, and pursue successful careers in whatever interests them, thanks to their plentiful material resources. Unfortunately that pretty much never happens.
The Olsen twins kind of did that; they went to NYU for a year or two, before leaving to run their fashion empire full-time. The Sprouse twins did basically the same thing, and I think they're still at NYU (one was working a campus job this fall- hey look, he's "majoring in video game design").
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:46 AM on December 2, 2013
The Olsen twins kind of did that; they went to NYU for a year or two, before leaving to run their fashion empire full-time. The Sprouse twins did basically the same thing, and I think they're still at NYU (one was working a campus job this fall- hey look, he's "majoring in video game design").
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:46 AM on December 2, 2013
I see what you mean litleozy. But I think he's for real.
For those who think this is tl;dr, I'd suggest reading it anyway, it is an eye-opener. But here's some choice snippets, although far from all of them, and all boldface is my own:
But the thing about the (Disney Channel) show was that some of the writing on it was terrible. It just ended up being some weird slapstick humor that only a 10-year-old would laugh at. They took out the kissing scene that Nick had. I had to shave every day because they wanted me to pretend like I was 16 when I was 20 (when the show was done, I cut my hair off and grew as much of a beard as I could). We went along with it at the time, because we thought Disney was our only real shot, and we were terrified that it could all be taken away from us at any moment.
[...]
We were working with Disney in 2007 when the Vanessa Hudgens nude-photo scandal happened. We heard that she had to be in the Disney offices for a whole day because they were trying to figure out how to keep her on lockdown. We’d hear execs talking about it, and they would tell us that they were so proud of us for not making the same mistakes, which made us feel like we couldn’t ever mess up.
[...]
We were just kids. That’s the reality. We were frightened little kids. So you got all this responsibility that’s foisted upon you and you’re expected to be perfect. I went through media training, and I hated it. They’d teach you how to change the subject, whenever you were asked an uncomfortable question, by saying something like, “Oh, that reminds me of my dog! I have a great story about my dog!” Playing dumb is the best way of getting out of anything.
Media training. I need to research this more. From that, I sense a similar kind of stink as I get off of Frank Luntz.
posted by JHarris at 5:00 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
For those who think this is tl;dr, I'd suggest reading it anyway, it is an eye-opener. But here's some choice snippets, although far from all of them, and all boldface is my own:
But the thing about the (Disney Channel) show was that some of the writing on it was terrible. It just ended up being some weird slapstick humor that only a 10-year-old would laugh at. They took out the kissing scene that Nick had. I had to shave every day because they wanted me to pretend like I was 16 when I was 20 (when the show was done, I cut my hair off and grew as much of a beard as I could). We went along with it at the time, because we thought Disney was our only real shot, and we were terrified that it could all be taken away from us at any moment.
[...]
We were working with Disney in 2007 when the Vanessa Hudgens nude-photo scandal happened. We heard that she had to be in the Disney offices for a whole day because they were trying to figure out how to keep her on lockdown. We’d hear execs talking about it, and they would tell us that they were so proud of us for not making the same mistakes, which made us feel like we couldn’t ever mess up.
[...]
We were just kids. That’s the reality. We were frightened little kids. So you got all this responsibility that’s foisted upon you and you’re expected to be perfect. I went through media training, and I hated it. They’d teach you how to change the subject, whenever you were asked an uncomfortable question, by saying something like, “Oh, that reminds me of my dog! I have a great story about my dog!” Playing dumb is the best way of getting out of anything.
Media training. I need to research this more. From that, I sense a similar kind of stink as I get off of Frank Luntz.
posted by JHarris at 5:00 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hey, I run weekend gamejam events in New York City, and I just wanted to say that Dylan Sprouse came to the original MolyJam in 2011 and pulled his weight for the team he was on. This was before, I believe, NYU Game Center opened up most of their games classes to undergrads. If he's decided to pursue it properly, it's with at least some understanding of the amount of real work involved, so good for him. Maybe he and Max Spielberg can make something together.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by GameDesignerBen at 5:16 AM on December 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
JHarris: I think one of the more disturbing trends is how you can be both completely sincere and completely marketed. How who he is happens to coincide with what will sell him. So yeah, agree that he is for real, but I can't shake off the thought that he can only be for real like this because.... And it's true that having read this I do hope he makes it.
posted by litleozy at 5:38 AM on December 2, 2013
posted by litleozy at 5:38 AM on December 2, 2013
Also, Eyebrows, it would be an official notice that it's now perfectly OK to lust after said former child stars.
The various countdown clocks for underaged celebrities are right on the top of my "creepiest things" list that make me feel dirty for even knowing about.
There used to be this group of fans who liked to camp outside our apartments in New York, and about a year ago, one of them asked us for a photo in the morning, and I said hi to him, and later that night, he was outside a restaurant that we had gone to with some friends. That was not cool. It felt like he was following us. So we all got in the car and he runs up, yelling through the window, “Can I get your picture? Please please please?” I said, “Look, man, I’m usually nice to you about this, but we’re just having a night to ourselves, and if you can respect that, I’d really appreciate it.” He started bawling and ran off to his friends.
As long as I live, I will never understand obsessive fandom. What a strange way to spend your energy and time. There's a lot of problematic things about celebrity culture, but it all hinges on people having these intense obsessions and genuinely caring about the baby bumps and the breakups.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:05 AM on December 2, 2013
The various countdown clocks for underaged celebrities are right on the top of my "creepiest things" list that make me feel dirty for even knowing about.
There used to be this group of fans who liked to camp outside our apartments in New York, and about a year ago, one of them asked us for a photo in the morning, and I said hi to him, and later that night, he was outside a restaurant that we had gone to with some friends. That was not cool. It felt like he was following us. So we all got in the car and he runs up, yelling through the window, “Can I get your picture? Please please please?” I said, “Look, man, I’m usually nice to you about this, but we’re just having a night to ourselves, and if you can respect that, I’d really appreciate it.” He started bawling and ran off to his friends.
As long as I live, I will never understand obsessive fandom. What a strange way to spend your energy and time. There's a lot of problematic things about celebrity culture, but it all hinges on people having these intense obsessions and genuinely caring about the baby bumps and the breakups.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:05 AM on December 2, 2013
Eyebrows McGee, you might like Mat Klickstein's book "Slimed" about the history of Nickelodeon. You Can't Do That on Television producer Roger Price basically told all of those kids that the job was a short time deal and that they would age out of the show once they looked too old. Add cake and you're golden.
posted by dr_dank at 6:39 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 6:39 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Compared to Disney, I think the production environment of You Can't Do That On Television would be considered remarkably sane and reasonable. Most of those kids emerged pretty much unscathed from the children's sausage factory and went on to live normal lives. Except for Alanis I suppose.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:20 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 7:20 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Media training. I need to research this more.
Some of is it just appearing in camera well, posture, keeping your voice even, looking at the right place, avoiding ums/speaking in whole sentences/always including the question asked in your reply/etc but some of it is more " and here's a list of topics we can't talk about and how to evade them."
I understand it's a totally, widly different experience but I'm kinda amazed how well-adjusted the Harry Potter kids turned out.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some of is it just appearing in camera well, posture, keeping your voice even, looking at the right place, avoiding ums/speaking in whole sentences/always including the question asked in your reply/etc but some of it is more " and here's a list of topics we can't talk about and how to evade them."
I understand it's a totally, widly different experience but I'm kinda amazed how well-adjusted the Harry Potter kids turned out.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the production environment of You Can't Do That On Television would be considered remarkably sane and reasonable.According to a blog post, Christine ended up in a bad management deal after her stint on YCDTOTV.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:31 AM on December 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
I bet the saving grace for the Harry Potter kids was that their production was based in England and not Los Angeles. Sometimes you get the feeling that exploitation and debasement just floats in the air in certain parts of LA. People get used to it as the norm and don't expect better.
< /wild geographical generalization >
posted by wabbittwax at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
< /wild geographical generalization >
posted by wabbittwax at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Whelk: I'm kinda amazed how well-adjusted the Harry Potter kids turned out
They were pretty astute from the beginning. Well, except for that Harry kid.
JHarris: Jonas said "I went through media training, and I hated it. They’d teach you how to change the subject, whenever you were asked an uncomfortable question, by saying something like, “Oh, that reminds me of my dog! I have a great story about my dog!” Playing dumb is the best way of getting out of anything."
It sounds a bit soul-crushing for kids to go through that kind of training, but at the same time, they're operating in the broader environment of "exploitation and debasement" that is the US entertainment industry, where so-called reporters will pounce on personal flaws and anything scandalous. In some terrible way, that training could make them a bit more safe from that, and help them to retain an image of youthful ignorance. They might not appreciate it while going through the training, but they might value it in retrospect. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if every agent of an inexperienced actor didn't coach them on how to survive in the era of TMZ.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on December 2, 2013
They were pretty astute from the beginning. Well, except for that Harry kid.
JHarris: Jonas said "I went through media training, and I hated it. They’d teach you how to change the subject, whenever you were asked an uncomfortable question, by saying something like, “Oh, that reminds me of my dog! I have a great story about my dog!” Playing dumb is the best way of getting out of anything."
It sounds a bit soul-crushing for kids to go through that kind of training, but at the same time, they're operating in the broader environment of "exploitation and debasement" that is the US entertainment industry, where so-called reporters will pounce on personal flaws and anything scandalous. In some terrible way, that training could make them a bit more safe from that, and help them to retain an image of youthful ignorance. They might not appreciate it while going through the training, but they might value it in retrospect. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if every agent of an inexperienced actor didn't coach them on how to survive in the era of TMZ.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on December 2, 2013
hippybear: Other Disney kids have been a bit more fortunate, although much more conservative with their choices. Lisa Whelchel was a Mousketeer, went on to play Blair in The Facts Of Life, and finally became a Christian recording artist and Christian author. In some respects, this may be the paragon of Ideal Paths for Disney kids.
I guess she is still young, so the clock is still ticking on a child-star-style breakdown, but Selena Gomez seems to have managed the transition from Disney star to adult woman pretty well without going super-conservative.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:06 AM on December 2, 2013
I guess she is still young, so the clock is still ticking on a child-star-style breakdown, but Selena Gomez seems to have managed the transition from Disney star to adult woman pretty well without going super-conservative.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:06 AM on December 2, 2013
The "dog story" thing is pretty standard media training. There's a similar political media training exercise called the three legged dog - no matter what you're asked, you turn the topic back to a three legged dog:
"What about the devastating poverty in your district, senator? "
"I think we can all agree that is a significant issue but what my constituents are most concerned about right now is my three legged dog. "
The dog part is just training. You really want to have some other talking point ready to go. Presumably, Disney kids are trained to the point where they know what sort of stories they can sub in for the dog business.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:47 AM on December 2, 2013
"What about the devastating poverty in your district, senator? "
"I think we can all agree that is a significant issue but what my constituents are most concerned about right now is my three legged dog. "
The dog part is just training. You really want to have some other talking point ready to go. Presumably, Disney kids are trained to the point where they know what sort of stories they can sub in for the dog business.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:47 AM on December 2, 2013
What a strange way to spend your energy and time.
Soooooo, confession time.
I was a teenage pop star stalker.
To be perfectly honest, I was not personally into the people in question (late 90s boy bands), but I had friends who really seriously were. And we lived in the middle of nowhere, and I was a bored teenager and the Friend Who Has A Car. So I often got roped into things like driving across the state to go hang out in the lobby of a hotel in Shreveport, Louisiana, where somebody heard that somebody heard NSync were staying after their show. Because sure, why not? What else am I doing? Gas is like $1 a gallon, so why the hell not?
It was mostly really boring. We never actually met any members of boy bands. The worst part was pretending to my friends that I actually liked these folks' music. I think at one point somebody was writing Hansen fan fiction, which I had to coexist with without cracking up into hysterical laughter.
It was also around this period where I realized that Ben Folds' entire MO is just to write songs with different popular girls' names in them.
(FWIW I can't imagine actually camping out, or running up to cars, or making demands of anyone, or following people around. This was strictly a "lets hang out by the stage door" type of thing, and was mostly just us looking for new venues to sit around and be bored.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Soooooo, confession time.
I was a teenage pop star stalker.
To be perfectly honest, I was not personally into the people in question (late 90s boy bands), but I had friends who really seriously were. And we lived in the middle of nowhere, and I was a bored teenager and the Friend Who Has A Car. So I often got roped into things like driving across the state to go hang out in the lobby of a hotel in Shreveport, Louisiana, where somebody heard that somebody heard NSync were staying after their show. Because sure, why not? What else am I doing? Gas is like $1 a gallon, so why the hell not?
It was mostly really boring. We never actually met any members of boy bands. The worst part was pretending to my friends that I actually liked these folks' music. I think at one point somebody was writing Hansen fan fiction, which I had to coexist with without cracking up into hysterical laughter.
It was also around this period where I realized that Ben Folds' entire MO is just to write songs with different popular girls' names in them.
(FWIW I can't imagine actually camping out, or running up to cars, or making demands of anyone, or following people around. This was strictly a "lets hang out by the stage door" type of thing, and was mostly just us looking for new venues to sit around and be bored.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
"Disney should host an official graduation for its child stars when they reach 18."
CAROUSEL! CAROUSEL! CAROUSEL!
Sniff, seems a bit callous
posted by NiteMayr at 9:50 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
CAROUSEL! CAROUSEL! CAROUSEL!
Sniff, seems a bit callous
posted by NiteMayr at 9:50 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think at one point somebody was writing Hansen fan fiction, which I had to coexist with without cracking up into hysterical laughter.
Hey, Tulsa 74132 was a masterpiece I tell you. MASTERPIECE.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hey, Tulsa 74132 was a masterpiece I tell you. MASTERPIECE.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
As long as I live, I will never understand obsessive fandom. What a strange way to spend your energy and time. There's a lot of problematic things about celebrity culture, but it all hinges on people having these intense obsessions and genuinely caring about the baby bumps and the breakups.
I think they're just lonely. Or maybe are joiners who haven't yet found religion.
Jonas sounds like he actually liked at least some of the attention, considering he wanted to date fellow starlets and was willing to go off-brand enough to get drunk in public and PDA. I doubt I could have taken having people lurking around ready to accost me at any time so well in stride, so I respect him quite a bit for that.
The dog part is just training. You really want to have some other talking point ready to go. Presumably, Disney kids are trained to the point where they know what sort of stories they can sub in for the dog business.
I don't think this is especially strange or unusual. What's essentially different between this and getting taught manners? *Maybe* it's Manners 201 instead of Manners 101 to know how to gracefully change the subject and not put your foot in your mouth or overshare or make yourself look bad, but it doesn't seem like some bizarre way of interacting. He even says at the beginning that it was pretty similar to being a Pastor's son in terms of needing to keep a squeaky-clean public image, the stakes just felt higher because his career was at risk and there were a lot of people watching closely for any flubs.
I guess she is still young, so the clock is still ticking on a child-star-style breakdown, but Selena Gomez seems to have managed the transition from Disney star to adult woman pretty well without going super-conservative. yt
It seems to me that the kid's parents have a lot to do with how well the kid transitions into adulthood and their adult lives. From what I've heard of interviews with or their kids' stories about Selena Gomez's mother (driven) v. Miley Cyrus's mother (laid back and fun) v. Lindsey Lohan's mother (irresponsible and blame-y) v. Britney Spear's father (skeezy), it seems like the parents' attitudes toward life and what they expect of that kid really obviously plays out in how the kid acts even as an adult. Not to say that the kid becomes their parent, but it's shocking to me how much influence the parent seems to have over how the kid runs his/her life even as an adult.
I think that's less true for non-Disney kids (for example, the kids coming out of the Degrassi sausage factory or the ones who get funneled through WB/CW as kids and/or young adults -- which are often the same kids, of course), though I don't know why that's the case.
posted by rue72 at 12:08 PM on December 2, 2013
I think they're just lonely. Or maybe are joiners who haven't yet found religion.
Jonas sounds like he actually liked at least some of the attention, considering he wanted to date fellow starlets and was willing to go off-brand enough to get drunk in public and PDA. I doubt I could have taken having people lurking around ready to accost me at any time so well in stride, so I respect him quite a bit for that.
The dog part is just training. You really want to have some other talking point ready to go. Presumably, Disney kids are trained to the point where they know what sort of stories they can sub in for the dog business.
I don't think this is especially strange or unusual. What's essentially different between this and getting taught manners? *Maybe* it's Manners 201 instead of Manners 101 to know how to gracefully change the subject and not put your foot in your mouth or overshare or make yourself look bad, but it doesn't seem like some bizarre way of interacting. He even says at the beginning that it was pretty similar to being a Pastor's son in terms of needing to keep a squeaky-clean public image, the stakes just felt higher because his career was at risk and there were a lot of people watching closely for any flubs.
I guess she is still young, so the clock is still ticking on a child-star-style breakdown, but Selena Gomez seems to have managed the transition from Disney star to adult woman pretty well without going super-conservative. yt
It seems to me that the kid's parents have a lot to do with how well the kid transitions into adulthood and their adult lives. From what I've heard of interviews with or their kids' stories about Selena Gomez's mother (driven) v. Miley Cyrus's mother (laid back and fun) v. Lindsey Lohan's mother (irresponsible and blame-y) v. Britney Spear's father (skeezy), it seems like the parents' attitudes toward life and what they expect of that kid really obviously plays out in how the kid acts even as an adult. Not to say that the kid becomes their parent, but it's shocking to me how much influence the parent seems to have over how the kid runs his/her life even as an adult.
I think that's less true for non-Disney kids (for example, the kids coming out of the Degrassi sausage factory or the ones who get funneled through WB/CW as kids and/or young adults -- which are often the same kids, of course), though I don't know why that's the case.
posted by rue72 at 12:08 PM on December 2, 2013
What's essentially different between this and getting taught manners? *Maybe* it's Manners 201 instead of Manners 101 to know how to gracefully change the subject and not put your foot in your mouth or overshare or make yourself look bad, but it doesn't seem like some bizarre way of interacting.
Maybe it's different in that, if you fail at manners as a non-famous person, you're not likely to end up being ripped to shreds in a tabloid for your failure.
See, for instance, the source article, in which Joe Jonas talks about how just one time he very politely asked a very overbearing, stalkerish fan to please be cool and let him have some privacy for just one night, and within a day or so it was all over the tabloids that Joe Jonas had been really mean and laughed in this guy's face and made him cry.
If I have to be firm but gentle with someone in my life, I don't run the risk of being pilloried in the press. This kid did.
posted by palomar at 12:37 PM on December 2, 2013
Maybe it's different in that, if you fail at manners as a non-famous person, you're not likely to end up being ripped to shreds in a tabloid for your failure.
See, for instance, the source article, in which Joe Jonas talks about how just one time he very politely asked a very overbearing, stalkerish fan to please be cool and let him have some privacy for just one night, and within a day or so it was all over the tabloids that Joe Jonas had been really mean and laughed in this guy's face and made him cry.
If I have to be firm but gentle with someone in my life, I don't run the risk of being pilloried in the press. This kid did.
posted by palomar at 12:37 PM on December 2, 2013
The thing about other child star scenarios as opposed to Disney is that it's not nearly so much a factory.
I work on a teen-centric TV show which is not part of the Disney pop star assembly line.
Key differences:
- The young actors on our show are just actors. It's not a "we own your whole life" transmedia experience. They do press for the show, but it's not a full time slog in the way that playing arenas is. The show is an ensemble, and while I think there are some breakout stars (there is one girl who tends to do more press and get more fan mail and the like), it's not one kid carrying the weight of an entire media empire.
- Most of the actors playing teenagers on our show are not children. Our entire "teen" cast is in the 18-21 range. We have one real child actor, who is very much not the star of the show and likely works only one day per episode, in episodes he appears in. It's very possible that the only kid on our show has a totally normal childhood aside from missing school once every few weeks.
To me, there is a HUGE difference between someone like Miley Cyrus, who never had a childhood and has always worked full-time at the center of a global media phenomenon, and someone like Leighton Meester*, who got her big breakout role at 20, only has to be an actor, and is kind of driving her own bus in terms of what kind of career she wants to have.
*Not on the show I work on, I just picked her as an actor who is famous for playing a teenager on TV.
posted by Sara C. at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2013
I work on a teen-centric TV show which is not part of the Disney pop star assembly line.
Key differences:
- The young actors on our show are just actors. It's not a "we own your whole life" transmedia experience. They do press for the show, but it's not a full time slog in the way that playing arenas is. The show is an ensemble, and while I think there are some breakout stars (there is one girl who tends to do more press and get more fan mail and the like), it's not one kid carrying the weight of an entire media empire.
- Most of the actors playing teenagers on our show are not children. Our entire "teen" cast is in the 18-21 range. We have one real child actor, who is very much not the star of the show and likely works only one day per episode, in episodes he appears in. It's very possible that the only kid on our show has a totally normal childhood aside from missing school once every few weeks.
To me, there is a HUGE difference between someone like Miley Cyrus, who never had a childhood and has always worked full-time at the center of a global media phenomenon, and someone like Leighton Meester*, who got her big breakout role at 20, only has to be an actor, and is kind of driving her own bus in terms of what kind of career she wants to have.
*Not on the show I work on, I just picked her as an actor who is famous for playing a teenager on TV.
posted by Sara C. at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2013
That said, don't even get me started on the Child Actor phenomenon. I find it kind of shameful that people are getting all worked up about whether horses really want to be in movies over in the American Humane Society thread when we'll happily destroy a child's future over the prospect of being in a Burger King commercial.
posted by Sara C. at 1:01 PM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 1:01 PM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
It sounds a bit soul-crushing for kids to go through that kind of training, but at the same time, they're operating in the broader environment of "exploitation and debasement" that is the US entertainment industry, where so-called reporters will pounce on personal flaws and anything scandalous.
Then those kids shouldn't be subject to those interviews -- which in turn implies Disney shouldn't be trying to turn them into billion-dollar megastars at the expense of such trauma.
But the thing that really galls me is that you can bet that this "media training" isn't solely limited to child stars, but that politicians go through it too. Classes on how to avoid saying anything substantive.
posted by JHarris at 1:38 PM on December 2, 2013
Then those kids shouldn't be subject to those interviews -- which in turn implies Disney shouldn't be trying to turn them into billion-dollar megastars at the expense of such trauma.
But the thing that really galls me is that you can bet that this "media training" isn't solely limited to child stars, but that politicians go through it too. Classes on how to avoid saying anything substantive.
posted by JHarris at 1:38 PM on December 2, 2013
I find it kind of shameful that people are getting all worked up about whether horses really want to be in movies over in the American Humane Society thread when we'll happily destroy a child's future over the prospect of being in a Burger King commercial.
More than one thing can be wrong with the world.
posted by JHarris at 1:39 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
More than one thing can be wrong with the world.
posted by JHarris at 1:39 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thanks for linking to this article, ThePinkSuperhero. That was a really interesting read. Quite a frank set of recollections.
The only Jonas Brothers song which I'm familiar with is 'Burnin' Up'. I'm a sucker for a good pop song, and that one ticks all my boxes. Energetic and catchy. Plus, it has a fantastic music video, which rather endeared me to the group. It exhibits a great sense of humor - especially Joe's line at the end: 'I can't grow a moustache.' And it features David Carradine! Great fun.
Joe Jonas earned my undying respect when he uploaded to YouTube his re-enactment of Beyonce's 'Single Ladies' music video. Again, great sense of self-deprecating humor.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 2:37 PM on December 2, 2013
The only Jonas Brothers song which I'm familiar with is 'Burnin' Up'. I'm a sucker for a good pop song, and that one ticks all my boxes. Energetic and catchy. Plus, it has a fantastic music video, which rather endeared me to the group. It exhibits a great sense of humor - especially Joe's line at the end: 'I can't grow a moustache.' And it features David Carradine! Great fun.
Joe Jonas earned my undying respect when he uploaded to YouTube his re-enactment of Beyonce's 'Single Ladies' music video. Again, great sense of self-deprecating humor.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 2:37 PM on December 2, 2013
JHarris: "But the thing that really galls me is that you can bet that this "media training" isn't solely limited to child stars, but that politicians go through it too. Classes on how to avoid saying anything substantive."
Well, yeah -- but not to avoid saying anything substantive. Businessmen, attorneys in high-profile cases, family members of public figures involved in scandals, high-profile crime victims ... lots of people do it. When I was helping raise funds for a local museum we all had a half-day of media training. The first big part of it is having an expert talk to you about the media landscape you'll be facing and what sorts of questions they'll ask and be interested in, so you can be prepared on those points. Reporters are people too, and sometimes they're way off-point because they're bored or badly-prepared or more interested in salacious details or whatever, and you're just there to talk about how art museums help K-12 educational achievement. Media trainers help you know what sorts of reporters you'll be facing, who's friendly, who's bored, who's aggressive, and help you practice the main points you want to get across. They tell you things like, "Joe with the News-Press loves a human interest angle, so he'd love your story about the kids with the lemonade stand raising money, but Sarah with WKRP thinks that's pandering and she'll want to focus more on factual information, especially financial details."
Secondly, talking to a reporter -- let alone several at once -- is not a very natural interaction, particularly when there are cameras or microphones. (I am MUCH more unnerved by the radio reporters than the TV reporters because the radio reporters STAND REALLY CLOSE TO YOU with their recorders; TV reporters stand considerably further back. Sometimes the camera is creepily up in your face and the light is hot, but there's not usually a PERSON quite so close to you.) You're literally trying to talk off-the-cuff about important things that people are interested in, and your every word is being recorded in some fashion. All the things that you do in normal, everyday speech -- hesitate, say "um," say "like," look to the side while you fish for a word -- now start to read as dishonest or uneducated or stupid. And then, God forbid, you misspeak, which will eventually happen if you do more than three interviews, and you can imagine the variety of nightmares that can follow a misstatement if the press is aggressive or salacious, which they often are with celebrities. And then, to me, the worst actually is, you say something that is correct but incredibly poorly-phrased, and it keeps coming back to haunt you because it accurately represents your thoughts, but in a way that sounds rude, dismissive, obscene, uneducated, off-point, or something else. Those keep me up at night burning with shame and regret going, "WHY DID I HAVE TO SAY BULLSHIT INSTEAD OF NONSENSE?" Media training helps you get more comfortable with those unnatural interactions and helps you learn to control your speech and body language a bit better, including practicing responses to questions you're likely to be asked.
If you have a PR problem, or if you are the sort of person who suffers from an aggressive press corps (and the celebrity press does love to catch child stars out), then yes, media training includes "pivots" where you learn how to address the negative thing and then pivot to the point that you want to see made. (Politicians also use pivots, to turn aside a slightly off-point question to the point they WANT to talk about; most political reporting has a total lack of follow-up that presses people on these points, although you can watch a lot of hack politicians (including Congressmen) just completely refuse to engage with the follow-up question and keep using the same pivot over and over again, not very smoothly, to keep making THEIR point. Which is why you get these inane interviews where a politician is asked a question and sounds like a parrot who only knows the answer to a different question.) For child stars, you would definitely want to teach them "pivots" so that when they're faced with an aggressive reporter who's filming everything they say and do, they know how to gracefully extricate themselves from awkward or intrusive questions and turn the conversation aside. It's one thing to do that at a dinner party; it's a totally different thing to do when you're being filmed for a TV news segment, and even adults need practice with that.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:51 PM on December 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
Well, yeah -- but not to avoid saying anything substantive. Businessmen, attorneys in high-profile cases, family members of public figures involved in scandals, high-profile crime victims ... lots of people do it. When I was helping raise funds for a local museum we all had a half-day of media training. The first big part of it is having an expert talk to you about the media landscape you'll be facing and what sorts of questions they'll ask and be interested in, so you can be prepared on those points. Reporters are people too, and sometimes they're way off-point because they're bored or badly-prepared or more interested in salacious details or whatever, and you're just there to talk about how art museums help K-12 educational achievement. Media trainers help you know what sorts of reporters you'll be facing, who's friendly, who's bored, who's aggressive, and help you practice the main points you want to get across. They tell you things like, "Joe with the News-Press loves a human interest angle, so he'd love your story about the kids with the lemonade stand raising money, but Sarah with WKRP thinks that's pandering and she'll want to focus more on factual information, especially financial details."
Secondly, talking to a reporter -- let alone several at once -- is not a very natural interaction, particularly when there are cameras or microphones. (I am MUCH more unnerved by the radio reporters than the TV reporters because the radio reporters STAND REALLY CLOSE TO YOU with their recorders; TV reporters stand considerably further back. Sometimes the camera is creepily up in your face and the light is hot, but there's not usually a PERSON quite so close to you.) You're literally trying to talk off-the-cuff about important things that people are interested in, and your every word is being recorded in some fashion. All the things that you do in normal, everyday speech -- hesitate, say "um," say "like," look to the side while you fish for a word -- now start to read as dishonest or uneducated or stupid. And then, God forbid, you misspeak, which will eventually happen if you do more than three interviews, and you can imagine the variety of nightmares that can follow a misstatement if the press is aggressive or salacious, which they often are with celebrities. And then, to me, the worst actually is, you say something that is correct but incredibly poorly-phrased, and it keeps coming back to haunt you because it accurately represents your thoughts, but in a way that sounds rude, dismissive, obscene, uneducated, off-point, or something else. Those keep me up at night burning with shame and regret going, "WHY DID I HAVE TO SAY BULLSHIT INSTEAD OF NONSENSE?" Media training helps you get more comfortable with those unnatural interactions and helps you learn to control your speech and body language a bit better, including practicing responses to questions you're likely to be asked.
If you have a PR problem, or if you are the sort of person who suffers from an aggressive press corps (and the celebrity press does love to catch child stars out), then yes, media training includes "pivots" where you learn how to address the negative thing and then pivot to the point that you want to see made. (Politicians also use pivots, to turn aside a slightly off-point question to the point they WANT to talk about; most political reporting has a total lack of follow-up that presses people on these points, although you can watch a lot of hack politicians (including Congressmen) just completely refuse to engage with the follow-up question and keep using the same pivot over and over again, not very smoothly, to keep making THEIR point. Which is why you get these inane interviews where a politician is asked a question and sounds like a parrot who only knows the answer to a different question.) For child stars, you would definitely want to teach them "pivots" so that when they're faced with an aggressive reporter who's filming everything they say and do, they know how to gracefully extricate themselves from awkward or intrusive questions and turn the conversation aside. It's one thing to do that at a dinner party; it's a totally different thing to do when you're being filmed for a TV news segment, and even adults need practice with that.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:51 PM on December 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
Talking to a reporter is so totally alien to having a conversation or talking to human beings that I totally understand why it needs to be a taught skill.
posted by The Whelk at 4:03 PM on December 2, 2013
posted by The Whelk at 4:03 PM on December 2, 2013
Going back to the article -- and somewhat speaking to the "media training" thing -- what gets me is how brand aware Joe Jonas is. I mean, I'd assume the same would be true of any pop star who has half a brain.
But it must be so weird to be a teenager and be aware that you're signing with Disney because you appeal to their demographic, to date a fellow Disney star because you'd been cast as a couple in a TV movie and fans liked it and it was good for your career, or to discover that every single thing about you, down to your stupid Christian promise ring, becomes part of your brand. Even if it's not actually what you are About at all.
It's like MassCom 101 as a lab science.
posted by Sara C. at 4:48 PM on December 2, 2013
But it must be so weird to be a teenager and be aware that you're signing with Disney because you appeal to their demographic, to date a fellow Disney star because you'd been cast as a couple in a TV movie and fans liked it and it was good for your career, or to discover that every single thing about you, down to your stupid Christian promise ring, becomes part of your brand. Even if it's not actually what you are About at all.
It's like MassCom 101 as a lab science.
posted by Sara C. at 4:48 PM on December 2, 2013
Also, someone needs to do a remake of They Shoot Horses, Don't They?, cast entirely with former Disney kids.
posted by Sara C. at 5:21 PM on December 2, 2013
posted by Sara C. at 5:21 PM on December 2, 2013
> (And the South Park episode about Britney which ends with the hordes turning away from her and focussing on Miley has become basically prophetic when viewed through the lens of history.)
The South Park Jonas Brothers episode was pretty great, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:23 PM on December 2, 2013
The South Park Jonas Brothers episode was pretty great, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:23 PM on December 2, 2013
Well, yeah -- but not to avoid saying anything substantive. Businessmen, attorneys in high-profile cases, family members of public figures involved in scandals, high-profile crime victims ... lots of people do it.
They do it to dodge trouble and responsibility by avoiding saying substantive things. That's the whole point! Because in cases where responsibility cannot be assigned, the weight of the penalty falls on someone else, probably someone who cannot afford it. It's become so ubiquitious that child stars are taught using the same techniques, which seems to me to be yet another tainting of innocence. Which I think is what the guy was getting at. In any case, it needs to be made clear: this is a case of cooperation in exploitation, between Disney and the entertainment industry. Disney doesn't have to make the Jonas Brothers available for this kind of thing, it wouldn't be happening, pressing interviews or media training either one, if it weren't for the boatloads of money Disney is trying to suck down.
Reporters are people too, and sometimes they're way off-point because they're bored or badly-prepared or more interested in salacious details or whatever, and you're just there to talk about how art museums help K-12 educational achievement.
Then point that out to them. Reporters are human -- and sometimes, some of them act less than human. In cases like that, I think it's perfectly fine not to play his shitty game. Of course kids won't know to do that, but for that, see above. They shouldn't be put into these situations. And it makes me sound like a crazy killjoy uncle, but dammit, I think the youth of the world should be made more aware of how the sausage gets made. It might cast a different, healthier light on their idols.
Talking to a reporter is so totally alien to having a conversation or talking to human beings that I totally understand why it needs to be a taught skill.
It is worth noting how it got to be that way -- partly in response to these kinds of tactics, partly due to the unholy drive for eyeballs that runs news (and quasi-news) organizations.
posted by JHarris at 6:50 PM on December 2, 2013
They do it to dodge trouble and responsibility by avoiding saying substantive things. That's the whole point! Because in cases where responsibility cannot be assigned, the weight of the penalty falls on someone else, probably someone who cannot afford it. It's become so ubiquitious that child stars are taught using the same techniques, which seems to me to be yet another tainting of innocence. Which I think is what the guy was getting at. In any case, it needs to be made clear: this is a case of cooperation in exploitation, between Disney and the entertainment industry. Disney doesn't have to make the Jonas Brothers available for this kind of thing, it wouldn't be happening, pressing interviews or media training either one, if it weren't for the boatloads of money Disney is trying to suck down.
Reporters are people too, and sometimes they're way off-point because they're bored or badly-prepared or more interested in salacious details or whatever, and you're just there to talk about how art museums help K-12 educational achievement.
Then point that out to them. Reporters are human -- and sometimes, some of them act less than human. In cases like that, I think it's perfectly fine not to play his shitty game. Of course kids won't know to do that, but for that, see above. They shouldn't be put into these situations. And it makes me sound like a crazy killjoy uncle, but dammit, I think the youth of the world should be made more aware of how the sausage gets made. It might cast a different, healthier light on their idols.
Talking to a reporter is so totally alien to having a conversation or talking to human beings that I totally understand why it needs to be a taught skill.
It is worth noting how it got to be that way -- partly in response to these kinds of tactics, partly due to the unholy drive for eyeballs that runs news (and quasi-news) organizations.
posted by JHarris at 6:50 PM on December 2, 2013
JHarris: "They do it to dodge trouble and responsibility by avoiding saying substantive things. That's the whole point!"
No, the POINT is to say substantive things on the topic I want to talk about, not the topic you want me to talk about. The point of media training is not to have no message, it's to get MY message over effectively and not be moved off my message by off-point questions.
Like for example, there's this guy locally who goes to every candidates' forum for every local office and asks everyone running about this one particular sidewalk that makes him angry. Lots of candidates running for, say, the water board, are totally flummoxed by a question about a random sidewalk that the city is responsible for and the water board has nothing to do with, and them stumble and stammer and people at the forum think they seem clueless. Or they say curtly, "That's not part of the water board's job," to this elderly harmless sidewalk guy and people think they seem rude. So you learn to say, "That is really frustrating, and while sidewalks are usually under the city's control, I definitely share your concerns about vital infrastructure maintenance, and I think one of the most important issues facing the water board right now is the upgrade of 342 miles of 100-year-old pipes. It will be expensive, but it will carry our water system forward another 100 years and save money in the long run by reducing water main breaks, and all the damage they can do to roads -- and sidewalks!"
When you are a public figure -- celebrity, politician, whatever -- there is a premium placed on not being rude or brusque or dismissive. The thing is that frequently you get ask questions that, if you're simply direct about it, will seem rude or brusque or dismissive. And celebrities with huge fan bases stir up emotions (like politicians dealing with important issues), and how people react emotionally matters at least as much as the content of the answer. It might be nice to live in a world where you could simply be direct and factual, but often you have to address the underlying emotional content of the question/answer as well, and how that will "play" to people watching (or listening or reading).
JHarris: "It is worth noting how it got to be that way -- partly in response to these kinds of tactics, partly due to the unholy drive for eyeballs that runs news (and quasi-news) organizations."
I don't dispute that a lot of the crazier excesses of media are due to those things, but the simple fact is that having all of your words recorded makes most of us self-conscious and therefore somewhat more awkward than usual, even if you're NOT being asked to speak off-the-cuff. One of the local radio reporters who frequently interviews me is actually a good friend of mine but the minute he turns on that microphone it is AWKWARD CITY. Not because we have a bad relationship or he's out to get me or I'm trying to lie to him, just because now we're suddenly having this very artificial conversation, and I suddenly get really self-conscious about saying "like" and about how to phrase things and did I remember to say everything and oh shoot I left out an important point and dammit I coughed in the middle of the good quote and ... It's just awkward, even when it's all friendly.
(In a TV studio, like doing a local morning newscast where it's all, "Let's talk about how awesome your news business is!" or "Why I love snakes," inexperienced interviewees freeze up ALL THE TIME because there's the camera and the lights and then they speak and can hear their own voices on the monitors. It's just weird.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:12 PM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
No, the POINT is to say substantive things on the topic I want to talk about, not the topic you want me to talk about. The point of media training is not to have no message, it's to get MY message over effectively and not be moved off my message by off-point questions.
Like for example, there's this guy locally who goes to every candidates' forum for every local office and asks everyone running about this one particular sidewalk that makes him angry. Lots of candidates running for, say, the water board, are totally flummoxed by a question about a random sidewalk that the city is responsible for and the water board has nothing to do with, and them stumble and stammer and people at the forum think they seem clueless. Or they say curtly, "That's not part of the water board's job," to this elderly harmless sidewalk guy and people think they seem rude. So you learn to say, "That is really frustrating, and while sidewalks are usually under the city's control, I definitely share your concerns about vital infrastructure maintenance, and I think one of the most important issues facing the water board right now is the upgrade of 342 miles of 100-year-old pipes. It will be expensive, but it will carry our water system forward another 100 years and save money in the long run by reducing water main breaks, and all the damage they can do to roads -- and sidewalks!"
When you are a public figure -- celebrity, politician, whatever -- there is a premium placed on not being rude or brusque or dismissive. The thing is that frequently you get ask questions that, if you're simply direct about it, will seem rude or brusque or dismissive. And celebrities with huge fan bases stir up emotions (like politicians dealing with important issues), and how people react emotionally matters at least as much as the content of the answer. It might be nice to live in a world where you could simply be direct and factual, but often you have to address the underlying emotional content of the question/answer as well, and how that will "play" to people watching (or listening or reading).
JHarris: "It is worth noting how it got to be that way -- partly in response to these kinds of tactics, partly due to the unholy drive for eyeballs that runs news (and quasi-news) organizations."
I don't dispute that a lot of the crazier excesses of media are due to those things, but the simple fact is that having all of your words recorded makes most of us self-conscious and therefore somewhat more awkward than usual, even if you're NOT being asked to speak off-the-cuff. One of the local radio reporters who frequently interviews me is actually a good friend of mine but the minute he turns on that microphone it is AWKWARD CITY. Not because we have a bad relationship or he's out to get me or I'm trying to lie to him, just because now we're suddenly having this very artificial conversation, and I suddenly get really self-conscious about saying "like" and about how to phrase things and did I remember to say everything and oh shoot I left out an important point and dammit I coughed in the middle of the good quote and ... It's just awkward, even when it's all friendly.
(In a TV studio, like doing a local morning newscast where it's all, "Let's talk about how awesome your news business is!" or "Why I love snakes," inexperienced interviewees freeze up ALL THE TIME because there's the camera and the lights and then they speak and can hear their own voices on the monitors. It's just weird.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:12 PM on December 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
No, the POINT is to say substantive things on the topic I want to talk about, not the topic you want me to talk about.
That's just another way of saying the thing I'm complaining about. When you do this after being asked a direct question that I want to talk about, that's dodging the subject. If I ask you if you've been embezzling money, it's not substantive, to me, to the audience, to talk about your public service record, goddammitalltohell. I've seen countless interviews that have come down to carousel rides as a interviewer tries to get someone to say something non-teflon-coated, and he just chases him around the mulberry bush until time's up. You must understand, from where I'm sitting, this looks like a great failure of journalism, and it's not something you're going to get me to change my mind about easily.
When you are a public figure -- celebrity, politician, whatever -- there is a premium placed on not being rude or brusque or dismissive. The thing is that frequently you get ask questions that, if you're simply direct about it, will seem rude or brusque or dismissive.
I think these situations should be examined closely. In practice, there is a close relationship to these situations and what interviewees really think that they don't want to put plainly because it's unpopular. Like Dick Cheney telling reporters to fuck off -- they broke through that shell, the evasive answering, and exposed his real disdain. For that moment, we got a glimpse at the hateful real Cheney -- yes, it's even worse than what we see on the news. Tools that let the powerful hide and obscure their motives, I do not like them. Sure reporters aren't perfect, and words can be twisted. But this is the facet of the problem that's turned up here in the Jonas Brothers thread, so that's the one I'm talking about.
posted by JHarris at 5:43 AM on December 3, 2013
That's just another way of saying the thing I'm complaining about. When you do this after being asked a direct question that I want to talk about, that's dodging the subject. If I ask you if you've been embezzling money, it's not substantive, to me, to the audience, to talk about your public service record, goddammitalltohell. I've seen countless interviews that have come down to carousel rides as a interviewer tries to get someone to say something non-teflon-coated, and he just chases him around the mulberry bush until time's up. You must understand, from where I'm sitting, this looks like a great failure of journalism, and it's not something you're going to get me to change my mind about easily.
When you are a public figure -- celebrity, politician, whatever -- there is a premium placed on not being rude or brusque or dismissive. The thing is that frequently you get ask questions that, if you're simply direct about it, will seem rude or brusque or dismissive.
I think these situations should be examined closely. In practice, there is a close relationship to these situations and what interviewees really think that they don't want to put plainly because it's unpopular. Like Dick Cheney telling reporters to fuck off -- they broke through that shell, the evasive answering, and exposed his real disdain. For that moment, we got a glimpse at the hateful real Cheney -- yes, it's even worse than what we see on the news. Tools that let the powerful hide and obscure their motives, I do not like them. Sure reporters aren't perfect, and words can be twisted. But this is the facet of the problem that's turned up here in the Jonas Brothers thread, so that's the one I'm talking about.
posted by JHarris at 5:43 AM on December 3, 2013
Dylan Sprouse weighed in on the piece, and he called bullshit.
posted by orangutan at 9:38 AM on December 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by orangutan at 9:38 AM on December 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
First, I think it’s bullshit that they were being robbed of choice or creativity. If they wanted too, they could have told Disney “NO”.
Well, it's all part of the money trap isn't it, where money has such an outsized cultural reputation as the thing everyone wants and needs that one tends to second guess ones' self about any decision that reduces income by even a little bit, regardless of other costs. And expecting a young man to understand that when most adults don't, including everyone immediately around him loudly telling him how lucky he is. And especially with a fairly sheltered young man as most Christian youths tend to be, well, it doesn't sit well with me to judge him harshly on his decisions here.
posted by JHarris at 2:20 PM on December 3, 2013
Well, it's all part of the money trap isn't it, where money has such an outsized cultural reputation as the thing everyone wants and needs that one tends to second guess ones' self about any decision that reduces income by even a little bit, regardless of other costs. And expecting a young man to understand that when most adults don't, including everyone immediately around him loudly telling him how lucky he is. And especially with a fairly sheltered young man as most Christian youths tend to be, well, it doesn't sit well with me to judge him harshly on his decisions here.
posted by JHarris at 2:20 PM on December 3, 2013
Another angle on that, JHarris, is that what Disney is offering is something that so many people are desperate for.
It's kind of hard to want to become a professional musician, and then you find someone who thinks you are PERFECT and they want to sign you and they're going to make you a STAR (dream come true!)... but it's Disney. Which means you have to do it their way. It's very easy, in the beginning, to say "sure it's Disney, but THIS IS MY BIG CHANCE!"
And it's hard to tell them to fuck off, because being a successful musician is hard, and they seem to know what they're doing, and maybe saying "no" means losing your big chance.
I imagine this is even harder when you're a teenager. I'm an adult, and I've thought long and hard about what kinds of stuff I want to be doing, and what that means, and who I would or wouldn't be interested in working with. And, still, if I were offered a staff writing job on a Disney series, it would be hard to say no.
It's probably even harder coming from a conservative Christian background, due to the strong pressure to be family friendly and palatable to everyone and likable. The Disney baggage looks pretty attractive when you're a wholesome 14 year old who just wants to play the guitar for a living. It becomes a trap when you're 19 and you've seen a bit more of the world and met people with wider/more challenging influences.
Can you imagine being a Jonas Brother and then some session guy hands you the Sex Pistols? Oh, except you can't do anything with that because of your squeaky clean image, which you have for life despite the fact that you're an adult now.
Meanwhile, if you'd just done your Sex Pistols discovery phase first and then embarked on a music career, you could have had whatever you wanted.
posted by Sara C. at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's kind of hard to want to become a professional musician, and then you find someone who thinks you are PERFECT and they want to sign you and they're going to make you a STAR (dream come true!)... but it's Disney. Which means you have to do it their way. It's very easy, in the beginning, to say "sure it's Disney, but THIS IS MY BIG CHANCE!"
And it's hard to tell them to fuck off, because being a successful musician is hard, and they seem to know what they're doing, and maybe saying "no" means losing your big chance.
I imagine this is even harder when you're a teenager. I'm an adult, and I've thought long and hard about what kinds of stuff I want to be doing, and what that means, and who I would or wouldn't be interested in working with. And, still, if I were offered a staff writing job on a Disney series, it would be hard to say no.
It's probably even harder coming from a conservative Christian background, due to the strong pressure to be family friendly and palatable to everyone and likable. The Disney baggage looks pretty attractive when you're a wholesome 14 year old who just wants to play the guitar for a living. It becomes a trap when you're 19 and you've seen a bit more of the world and met people with wider/more challenging influences.
Can you imagine being a Jonas Brother and then some session guy hands you the Sex Pistols? Oh, except you can't do anything with that because of your squeaky clean image, which you have for life despite the fact that you're an adult now.
Meanwhile, if you'd just done your Sex Pistols discovery phase first and then embarked on a music career, you could have had whatever you wanted.
posted by Sara C. at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Except getting the Disney career adrenaline itself only comes if you already look vaguely like the mold they want to squeeze you into. Let's not kid ourselves -- plenty of stellar musicians will die unknown, ignored, unloved. Getting a Disney gig is like winning the lottery, except the odds are even lower. If you have your Sex Pistols discovery phase before then yes, you'll be a happier, more creatively fulfilled individual. Also, Disney is going with one of the thousands of other young musical talents out there, you'll be shoveled into the "worrying about the mortgage" life path, and most of the billions of people in the world will never hear of you.
And you know what that means. It means there won't be a Metafilter thread discussing your decision, which brings the good old anthropic-style questions into it -- we don't generally debate the life choices of the people who rejectedMephistopheles Disney, and find out if they ever had second thoughts.
posted by JHarris at 3:01 PM on December 3, 2013
And you know what that means. It means there won't be a Metafilter thread discussing your decision, which brings the good old anthropic-style questions into it -- we don't generally debate the life choices of the people who rejected
posted by JHarris at 3:01 PM on December 3, 2013
My scenario was that you do the normal teenage music discovery figuring yourself out phase, and then you go do the kind of music adult you would actually be proud of.
Are there a million pitfalls there? Sure. Is it a sure thing? No.
But I grew up with a guy who played sax in the high school marching band who is part of the backing band for some huge blues legacy act (BB King? Al Green? somebody like that), and he's a pro musician who makes the kind of music he wants to make for a living. He's probably a lot happier than Joe Jonas, too. And this guy wasn't the Best Musician In Town or anything, when we were growing up. I guess he was probably first chair sax in band? Maybe?
You can definitely go out and play music on a professional level as an adult without needing the Disney fame machine. It's not really like winning the lottery. It's more like becoming a surgeon. Is it difficult, and risky, and competitive? Yeah. But it's not impossible.
posted by Sara C. at 3:11 PM on December 3, 2013
Are there a million pitfalls there? Sure. Is it a sure thing? No.
But I grew up with a guy who played sax in the high school marching band who is part of the backing band for some huge blues legacy act (BB King? Al Green? somebody like that), and he's a pro musician who makes the kind of music he wants to make for a living. He's probably a lot happier than Joe Jonas, too. And this guy wasn't the Best Musician In Town or anything, when we were growing up. I guess he was probably first chair sax in band? Maybe?
You can definitely go out and play music on a professional level as an adult without needing the Disney fame machine. It's not really like winning the lottery. It's more like becoming a surgeon. Is it difficult, and risky, and competitive? Yeah. But it's not impossible.
posted by Sara C. at 3:11 PM on December 3, 2013
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