A baffling new movie on Amazon Prime misses the point of “never forget.”
August 2, 2023 12:05 PM Subscribe
Uh, to Be Clear, Remembering Auschwitz Is Not the Key to a Happy Marriage
"This article contains spoilers, but please believe me when I say that no mere description of the movie can possibly capture the experience of watching it.
They go to Berlin, and Ajay says that Hitler was a bad guy who had his own country but wanted to take over others. Nisha does not point out that what Hitler wanted to do in Germany (including but not limited to murdering Jews) was also quite bad, but instead says, “We’re all a little like Hitler, aren’t we? We’re not satisfied with what we have?”
I do not mean to discount different interpretations of historical remembrance, but I feel pretty secure in asserting that this was not Hitler’s defining trait. It is true, of course, that world history’s worst villains were also human, and that there were Nazis who were also loving fathers and friends, and that such political programs were designed by people. “It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say,” Holocaust survivor and writer Primo Levi’s famous quote goes. “It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.” But that is a very different message from “Like Hitler, everyone can get a little too ambitious.”
Does history teach us that? If it did, would a character playing a legislator in contemporary India utter those words without irony in this movie? In India today, groups affiliated with the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party run intimidation campaigns against Muslims; peaceful protesters are punished; those who speak out against the government are branded as “anti-nationals”; and journalists and activists are intimidated and arrested. To be very clear: I am not saying that Modi’s India is equivalent to Hitler’s Germany. But the lessons of history exist not only for us to take our spouses out to dinner."
Previously
"This article contains spoilers, but please believe me when I say that no mere description of the movie can possibly capture the experience of watching it.
They go to Berlin, and Ajay says that Hitler was a bad guy who had his own country but wanted to take over others. Nisha does not point out that what Hitler wanted to do in Germany (including but not limited to murdering Jews) was also quite bad, but instead says, “We’re all a little like Hitler, aren’t we? We’re not satisfied with what we have?”
I do not mean to discount different interpretations of historical remembrance, but I feel pretty secure in asserting that this was not Hitler’s defining trait. It is true, of course, that world history’s worst villains were also human, and that there were Nazis who were also loving fathers and friends, and that such political programs were designed by people. “It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say,” Holocaust survivor and writer Primo Levi’s famous quote goes. “It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.” But that is a very different message from “Like Hitler, everyone can get a little too ambitious.”
Does history teach us that? If it did, would a character playing a legislator in contemporary India utter those words without irony in this movie? In India today, groups affiliated with the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party run intimidation campaigns against Muslims; peaceful protesters are punished; those who speak out against the government are branded as “anti-nationals”; and journalists and activists are intimidated and arrested. To be very clear: I am not saying that Modi’s India is equivalent to Hitler’s Germany. But the lessons of history exist not only for us to take our spouses out to dinner."
Previously
The article I thought did a great job of balancing the shocked humor if the situation with the fact that this is why remembrance is important, and then helping tie it into modern day politics. It was both funny and horrifying.
posted by Carillon at 12:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 12:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
From the article (line breaks added):
Perhaps the most unbelievable part of this movie comes during the “visit Auschwitz” portion. It is true, as director Nitesh Tiwari said, “they see the prisoners. They see the people, how they were stacked. They see the people, how they were exterminated and stuff like that.”posted by spamandkimchi at 12:18 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is also true that they go to hear an Auschwitz survivor speak, and that his speech somehow revolves around how, before he was brought to the concentration camp, he never took his wife out. Then they are brought to Auschwitz, where she is murdered.
“Every relationship goes through their Auschwitz,” he says, as the camera pans back and forth to a tearful Ajay, for whom Nisha is translating the survivor’s speech. “I hope and pray that yours does not end up like mine.”
Wow. Just wow. One wonders why Amazon would even pick this up, but I’m guessing licensing decisions don’t get scrutinized in this way.
posted by Room 101 at 12:20 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by Room 101 at 12:20 PM on August 2, 2023
What the everloving hell?
posted by brundlefly at 12:21 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 12:21 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of a recent episode here in Seattle, wherein the Seattle Times hired an op-ed writer who promptly tweeted about how he thought Hitler was pretty good compared to Lenin. He was then promptly fired for having no brain; his tweets were a little too mask-off even for that right-wing rag.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:31 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:31 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I couldn’t even get to the stuff about Auschwitz after I read this in the beginning...
On the night of their wedding, she has a seizure. He worries that if anyone ever saw this happen in public, it would ruin his reputation, and so he leaves her at home with his parents all the time. “I’d have definitely left you by now if I weren’t worried about my image so much,” he says to her at one point.
What in the actual fuck? I’m pretty uneducated about Indian culture, but, is this a realistic depiction of attitudes there?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
On the night of their wedding, she has a seizure. He worries that if anyone ever saw this happen in public, it would ruin his reputation, and so he leaves her at home with his parents all the time. “I’d have definitely left you by now if I weren’t worried about my image so much,” he says to her at one point.
What in the actual fuck? I’m pretty uneducated about Indian culture, but, is this a realistic depiction of attitudes there?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tamkin’s not a film critic, to put it mildly.
Amazon’s distribution deal with the Indian production company is why this movie is on Prime.
The director says more.
posted by Ideefixe at 1:05 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Amazon’s distribution deal with the Indian production company is why this movie is on Prime.
The director says more.
posted by Ideefixe at 1:05 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sometimes its really embarrassing to be from India. Bollywood is such a wild place.
posted by Fizz at 1:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 1:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
"We're all a little like Cthulu, aren't we? Squishy inside?"
"We're all a little like Darth Vader, aren't we? Easily winded?"
"We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
posted by PlusDistance at 1:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
"We're all a little like Darth Vader, aren't we? Easily winded?"
"We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
posted by PlusDistance at 1:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
"We're all a little like Sauron, aren't we? Suffering from eye strain?"
posted by dannyboybell at 1:16 PM on August 2, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by dannyboybell at 1:16 PM on August 2, 2023 [31 favorites]
“We’re all a little like Hitler, aren’t we? We’re not satisfied with what we have?”
Sadly, there were no Oompa-Loompas to sing to him as a child.
posted by PlusDistance at 1:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sadly, there were no Oompa-Loompas to sing to him as a child.
posted by PlusDistance at 1:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
On the night of their wedding, she has a seizure. He worries that if anyone ever saw this happen in public, it would ruin his reputation, and so he leaves her at home with his parents all the time. “I’d have definitely left you by now if I weren’t worried about my image so much,” he says to her at one point.What in the actual fuck? I’m pretty uneducated about Indian culture, but, is this a realistic depiction of attitudes there?
I don't want to get into a whole ass derail but yeah, there's a lot of fucked up attitudes surrounding status and perception and much of that is built on the legacy of the caste system and colonial rule. It's not uncommon to hear these types of attitudes or opinions when it comes to anything that goes against the norm or pushes back against dominant cultural attitudes that pervade much of India.
I recently heard someone from the Indian community talk about how they wouldn't open up to their family about their needing in vitro and how they kept that from their mother b/c they would be perceived as weak or flawed in some way.
The perception/status of being single, married, divorced, your looks (your height, your weight, whether you have dark or light skin), you name it some stupid ass Auntie or Uncle will be sharing their outdated ignorant ass opinion at temple. There's a whole lot of bullshit with Indian family culture. It's why I don't talk too much with my cousins and all my aunties and uncles, b/c I'm so done with that fucking shit.
posted by Fizz at 1:21 PM on August 2, 2023 [31 favorites]
I am epileptic and I am now really curious about cultural attitudes about it in India. Is it actually viewed as shameful? This whole movie is clearly bugnuts insane and filled with assholery, but for obvious personal reasons that stood out to me. As messed up as the US is about a whole lot of things, learning about my condition has always prompted, "Oh, damn. That sucks. I'm sorry. Anything I should do if something's happening?" and not a super negative reaction. Baffling.
posted by brundlefly at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Oompa Loompa doompity ditler
There's nothing good you can say about Hitler
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [30 favorites]
There's nothing good you can say about Hitler
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [30 favorites]
Say what you will about Hitler, he did kill Hitler.
posted by brundlefly at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2023 [76 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2023 [76 favorites]
Tamkin’s not a film critic, to put it mildly.
Ideefixe
No, please do put it more strongly and be clear what your point is.
You seem to be implying that Tamkin's criticisms can be dismissed because she's not a "real" film critic. Helpfully, her article links to reviews by for-real film critics such as a piece in The Guardian and the Hindustan Times who echo her bafflement.
Also, Tamkin's article liniks to another piece in the Jewish Telegraph Agency which notes that, in the video you link to:
Ideefixe
No, please do put it more strongly and be clear what your point is.
You seem to be implying that Tamkin's criticisms can be dismissed because she's not a "real" film critic. Helpfully, her article links to reviews by for-real film critics such as a piece in The Guardian and the Hindustan Times who echo her bafflement.
Also, Tamkin's article liniks to another piece in the Jewish Telegraph Agency which notes that, in the video you link to:
Dhawan dismissed people who he said were “triggered” by the film, adding, “I don’t understand where that sensitivity and that trigger goes when they watch, suppose, an English film.”posted by star gentle uterus at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Having visited the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam and not being able to speak for a while afterward I can attest that the first thought that came to my mind was not what I'd wear on my last day on Earth. Lack of empathy is the scourge of modern society.
posted by tommasz at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I found _Just No Stories_, parodies of the Just So stories, to be informative. For at least some Indians the Raj is personal like the Holocaust is personal for a lot of westerners.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
> "We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
is anyone fond of scandinavian food, exactly? isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
is anyone fond of scandinavian food, exactly? isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
We're all a little like Mao, aren't we? Our policy bumbling has starved millions, and we don't brush our teeth as often as we should.
posted by Naberius at 2:04 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 2:04 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
One wonders why Amazon would even pick this up, but I’m guessing licensing decisions don’t get scrutinized in this way.
It's my understanding that you can "self-publish" (so to speak) movies on Amazon, just like you can do with books. Here's another ridiculous film that took advantage of that fact.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's my understanding that you can "self-publish" (so to speak) movies on Amazon, just like you can do with books. Here's another ridiculous film that took advantage of that fact.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's not the same thing, though. Yeah, I can buy that Virus movie if I want. Amazon will pass it along and take their cut. But Bawaal is "available on Prime" which means I can watch it for free because of my Prime membership. (hurray!) Amazon had to, at some level, make a deliberate choice there.
posted by Naberius at 2:15 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 2:15 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
"We're all a little like Cthulu, aren't we? Squishy inside?"
"We're all a little like Darth Vader, aren't we? Easily winded?"
"We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
We're all a little like Elon aren't we? Uh... Um... No, wait, hold on, I got this.
There has to be something.
posted by The Bellman at 2:39 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
"We're all a little like Darth Vader, aren't we? Easily winded?"
"We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
We're all a little like Elon aren't we? Uh... Um... No, wait, hold on, I got this.
There has to be something.
posted by The Bellman at 2:39 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
To me, this really does look like an attempt to normalize sending people to concentration camps, and to take some of the sting out of comparisons of Modi to Hitler
Expert who predicted Rwandan genocide warns same could happen in India against Muslimsposted by jamjam at 3:01 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
The founder of Genocide Watch, Dr Gregory Stanton, who had predicted a genocide in Rwanda years before it took place in 1994 has warned of an impending genocide of Muslims in India, comparing the situation of the country under the Narendra Modi government to events in Myanmar and Rwanda.
[…]
What in the actual fuck? I’m pretty uneducated about Indian culture, but, is this a realistic depiction of attitudes there?
There are assholes everywhere.
Although ironically the attitude that treating someone as a horrible secret is preferable to the scandal of a divorce may have been inherited from the English during the occupation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are assholes everywhere.
Although ironically the attitude that treating someone as a horrible secret is preferable to the scandal of a divorce may have been inherited from the English during the occupation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
> We're all a little like Elon aren't we? Uh... Um... No, wait, hold on, I got this.
we’re all a little like elon, aren’t we? addicted to a wide range of drugs in the phenethylamine family?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:22 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
we’re all a little like elon, aren’t we? addicted to a wide range of drugs in the phenethylamine family?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:22 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Honestly I find the criticism really weird. It's clearly established that the main character is shallow and a bit of a dim bulb, and to somehow have him draw the precise right conclusions from looking at the history of Germany would be trite.
The film does not hold back on accurate information. The audience is not misled about history. A pair of fictional characters try to grapple with it and fail, but in doing so highlight why it's important to remember.
The tie-in with the politician at the end seemed particular facile. Would a politician say something deeply optimistic about the country and its future? Yes, of course they would. They might not mean it, but of course they would say it.
The whole thing smacks of a reviewer who doesn't understand how fiction works, and in particular that the views of characters may contradict the overall theme of the movie.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:24 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
The film does not hold back on accurate information. The audience is not misled about history. A pair of fictional characters try to grapple with it and fail, but in doing so highlight why it's important to remember.
The tie-in with the politician at the end seemed particular facile. Would a politician say something deeply optimistic about the country and its future? Yes, of course they would. They might not mean it, but of course they would say it.
The whole thing smacks of a reviewer who doesn't understand how fiction works, and in particular that the views of characters may contradict the overall theme of the movie.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:24 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
"We're all a little like Grendel, aren't we? Fond of Scandinavian food?"
is anyone fond of scandinavian food, exactly? isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?
Monster Grendel's tastes are plainish.
Breakfast? Just a couple Danish.
-- Beowulf Shrinklit, Maurice Sagoff
posted by dannyboybell at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
is anyone fond of scandinavian food, exactly? isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?
Monster Grendel's tastes are plainish.
Breakfast? Just a couple Danish.
-- Beowulf Shrinklit, Maurice Sagoff
posted by dannyboybell at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?
People get very excited about eating whale.
posted by biffa at 3:38 PM on August 2, 2023
People get very excited about eating whale.
posted by biffa at 3:38 PM on August 2, 2023
People with epilepsy were among the categories of those with physical and mental disabilities who were systematically murdered in Nazi Germany.
posted by jamjam at 3:45 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 3:45 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
*I* get very excited about eating those little marshmallow cars at Ikea.
posted by jellywerker at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jellywerker at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
The whole thing smacks of a reviewer who doesn't understand how fiction works, and in particular that the views of characters may contradict the overall theme of the movie.
I mean, maybe you could imagine that the main characters are meant as unsympathetic protagonists, but that doesn’t really explain why the film would have the Auschwitz survivor say “Every relationship goes through their Auschwitz.”
posted by AndrewInDC at 4:24 PM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
I mean, maybe you could imagine that the main characters are meant as unsympathetic protagonists, but that doesn’t really explain why the film would have the Auschwitz survivor say “Every relationship goes through their Auschwitz.”
posted by AndrewInDC at 4:24 PM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
“There are assholes everywhere.” Yeah, you’re right about that.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The film does not hold back on accurate information. The audience is not misled about history. A pair of fictional characters try to grapple with it and fail, but in doing so highlight why it's important to remember.
No one here has complained that the film is inaccurate or makes false claims about history.
The problem is not that the film is incorrect about history. The problem is that the film is exploiting history. It is using one of the most heinous mass genocides of the 20th Century as a rom-com plot point. Six million Jews were murdered, and countless more were tortured and subjected to medical experiments or other tortures, simply because of their faith - and for the takeaway from that to be "that's kind of like the crisis of conscience I'm having about my wife" is deeply, deeply insulting.
What I experienced on September 11th is a mere shadow of what a Holocaust survivor did - and yet I'm nevertheless angry enough to spit tacks any time a politician pipes up with the "Never forget" messaging every September and then turns right back around to screwing over the First Responders who need help; not because they're saying 9/11 didn't happen, but because they are USING the memory of that incident to make themselves look good, and they don't actually care a fig about the actual people involved. This is an immensely, immensely larger exploitation of history; accurate though it may be.
---
Ironically, though, I have been thinking about how last year, when everyone in Europe and the Americas was going bugnuts over RRR while a small group was quietly pointing out that "um....ya know, there are some definite Hindu-nationalist dog whistles in this film", and were largely shut down. Hell, I even tried to defend the American response to the film against such complaints in the Fanfare post (not denying the accusations, more like "but there's a silver lining that the West may now watch more Indian film, and isn't that good" or something). And I'm kind of feeling like this is a big cosmic fuck-you to all the "pfft, so what if there's right-wing messaging in RRR" comments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
No one here has complained that the film is inaccurate or makes false claims about history.
The problem is not that the film is incorrect about history. The problem is that the film is exploiting history. It is using one of the most heinous mass genocides of the 20th Century as a rom-com plot point. Six million Jews were murdered, and countless more were tortured and subjected to medical experiments or other tortures, simply because of their faith - and for the takeaway from that to be "that's kind of like the crisis of conscience I'm having about my wife" is deeply, deeply insulting.
What I experienced on September 11th is a mere shadow of what a Holocaust survivor did - and yet I'm nevertheless angry enough to spit tacks any time a politician pipes up with the "Never forget" messaging every September and then turns right back around to screwing over the First Responders who need help; not because they're saying 9/11 didn't happen, but because they are USING the memory of that incident to make themselves look good, and they don't actually care a fig about the actual people involved. This is an immensely, immensely larger exploitation of history; accurate though it may be.
---
Ironically, though, I have been thinking about how last year, when everyone in Europe and the Americas was going bugnuts over RRR while a small group was quietly pointing out that "um....ya know, there are some definite Hindu-nationalist dog whistles in this film", and were largely shut down. Hell, I even tried to defend the American response to the film against such complaints in the Fanfare post (not denying the accusations, more like "but there's a silver lining that the West may now watch more Indian film, and isn't that good" or something). And I'm kind of feeling like this is a big cosmic fuck-you to all the "pfft, so what if there's right-wing messaging in RRR" comments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Is this the appropriate time to drop the trivia that there's a movie (originally) called Dear Friend Hitler riffing off of the penpalship Gandhi had with the guy.... (Wiki)
It's an understatement to say, imo, in large parts of mainstream Indian society, certain parts of WW2 is *really* taken differently, and especially these days with right-wing Hindutva politics being the mainstream to the point it impacts Bollywood productions (southern cinema seems to be overlooked for the moment, but RRR's success probably means it's just a matter of time no matter how much appeasement they attempt first to head that off). In any case, what I'm trying to say is, to even try to react to this by emphasizing that this is so bizarre and no sane person would think this way-- I want to stop you right there.
posted by cendawanita at 6:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's an understatement to say, imo, in large parts of mainstream Indian society, certain parts of WW2 is *really* taken differently, and especially these days with right-wing Hindutva politics being the mainstream to the point it impacts Bollywood productions (southern cinema seems to be overlooked for the moment, but RRR's success probably means it's just a matter of time no matter how much appeasement they attempt first to head that off). In any case, what I'm trying to say is, to even try to react to this by emphasizing that this is so bizarre and no sane person would think this way-- I want to stop you right there.
posted by cendawanita at 6:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of the key points in Dara Horn's book People Love Dead Jews (which I highly recommend) is how Jewish tragedies in general, and the Holocaust in particular, are often held up as object lessons for the (non-Jewish) world to learn from. That it's not an accident that it's very rare to find fictional Holocaust stories that center Jews alone - it's much more likely that we get the story through the lens of the noble gentiles who helped. There's a comfort to putting yourselves in the shoes of the worst people in the world and reassuring yourself that in those circumstances you would never act that way - that you too would be brave and resilient and one of the rescuers. So it sounds like this is very much of a piece with that, if a lot tackier and even less respectful. The real Auschwitz is the mindfulness we made along the way.
It's just awful, though. The further the shoah gets in the rearview, the harder it is to get people to remember why they should remember, not just that they should. Based on the descriptions (which seem in depth enough to judge from) I don't have any interest in seeing this film, and I kind of hate that there's a FF thread on it if it means sending more people to watch it (and rewarding Prime for carrying it). But I guess the fact that people are still saying it was a bad thing is better than the growing number of people out there denying it happened at all, so.
posted by Mchelly at 7:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
It's just awful, though. The further the shoah gets in the rearview, the harder it is to get people to remember why they should remember, not just that they should. Based on the descriptions (which seem in depth enough to judge from) I don't have any interest in seeing this film, and I kind of hate that there's a FF thread on it if it means sending more people to watch it (and rewarding Prime for carrying it). But I guess the fact that people are still saying it was a bad thing is better than the growing number of people out there denying it happened at all, so.
posted by Mchelly at 7:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
Finally, a Bollywood adaptation of Springtime for Hitler
posted by Schmucko at 8:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Schmucko at 8:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: we're all a little like Metafilter, aren't we? Blue and filled with words
posted by dbscissors at 10:34 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by dbscissors at 10:34 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
“isn’t any scandinavian food that inspires any particularly strong emotion whatsoever automatically inauthentic?”
Spoken like someone who's never eaten lutefisk.
“In any case, what I'm trying to say is, to even try to react to this by emphasizing that this is so bizarre and no sane person would think this way-- I want to stop you right there.”
There are some severe cultural barriers involved in this whole thing that I think make discussing it extremely fraught. On the one hand, you have the issues you mention. On the other hand, westerners being offended at wildly insensitive depictions in Bollywood movies is more than a bit hypocritical.
And then we've got the backdrop of the current ascendency of violent Hindu nationalism in India in the mix and, wow, that's a lot of flashpoints.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:34 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Spoken like someone who's never eaten lutefisk.
“In any case, what I'm trying to say is, to even try to react to this by emphasizing that this is so bizarre and no sane person would think this way-- I want to stop you right there.”
There are some severe cultural barriers involved in this whole thing that I think make discussing it extremely fraught. On the one hand, you have the issues you mention. On the other hand, westerners being offended at wildly insensitive depictions in Bollywood movies is more than a bit hypocritical.
And then we've got the backdrop of the current ascendency of violent Hindu nationalism in India in the mix and, wow, that's a lot of flashpoints.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:34 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m ignorant on this, so I want to ask those who know more… what is the popular Indian conception of Adolf Hitler? I can imagine, maybe wrongly, that he’s more distant and abstract than he is to westerners, in the same way Mao Zedong is to many westerners. Millions of Indian soldiers fought for the Allies in WW2 under the yoke of the British Raj, but India itself was not a target of Nazi aggression the way Europe was. In the US, we have a cultural memory of the holocaust that comes largely from survivors who fled Europe, but I’d guess there was less exposure to the Jewish diaspora in India.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:57 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:57 AM on August 3, 2023
there was less exposure to the Jewish diaspora in India.
that assumption would erase the centuries of Jewish Indian existence, so I'd caution on holding on to that thought with any seriousness. There was even Jewish actresses in Bollywood movies, but I don't recall their names off-hand.
My way of understanding this was initially, pre-Modi, being exposed to the occasional critiques of Gandhi. Like when this book came out in 2015 talking about his South African past. From around that time my ears started perking up, I guess. And friends from the country do say that there's a great admiration to strongmen leaders (same here too). This article sums it up pretty well. Then of course these days, more straight comparisons between the respective rightwing/fascist movements.
(anyway, if you were a movie nerd and recalled all those Indian voices critiquing RRR, that's the boiling pot they're living in)
ETA: this Haaretz piece.
posted by cendawanita at 1:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
that assumption would erase the centuries of Jewish Indian existence, so I'd caution on holding on to that thought with any seriousness. There was even Jewish actresses in Bollywood movies, but I don't recall their names off-hand.
My way of understanding this was initially, pre-Modi, being exposed to the occasional critiques of Gandhi. Like when this book came out in 2015 talking about his South African past. From around that time my ears started perking up, I guess. And friends from the country do say that there's a great admiration to strongmen leaders (same here too). This article sums it up pretty well. Then of course these days, more straight comparisons between the respective rightwing/fascist movements.
(anyway, if you were a movie nerd and recalled all those Indian voices critiquing RRR, that's the boiling pot they're living in)
ETA: this Haaretz piece.
posted by cendawanita at 1:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
what is the popular Indian conception of Adolf Hitler? I can imagine, maybe wrongly, that he’s more distant and abstract than he is to westerners, in the same way Mao Zedong is to many westerners.
This is an important point. In the West we've agreed Hitler is uniquely evil, and is also a symbol of modern evil and anti-Semitism. Any deployment of "Hitler" has to take that into account. Someone using Hitler in a bad-but-not-uniquely-bad way is
I'm not an expert on Asian uses either, and I definitely can't comment on whether he's being deployed more for bad BNP related reasons. But I do know he hasn't played the same role there. For India, for example, see here. I had a friend (Jewish!) who taught in China for several years a while ago, and she said when she asked for essays on historical figures she routinely got admiring essays about Hitler, not for the mass murder part but for the strong leader part. Like, they just thought that the Holocaust was incidental to Hitler's trajectory, not requiring a mention. Hitler's rep seems more like Napoleon's in some ways.
I totally disagree with this stuff--I mean, I do think Hitler should be treated as uniquely evil. But I think the bafflement in the article is assuming that everyone starts with the same idea of Hitler.
posted by mark k at 5:22 AM on August 3, 2023
This is an important point. In the West we've agreed Hitler is uniquely evil, and is also a symbol of modern evil and anti-Semitism. Any deployment of "Hitler" has to take that into account. Someone using Hitler in a bad-but-not-uniquely-bad way is
I'm not an expert on Asian uses either, and I definitely can't comment on whether he's being deployed more for bad BNP related reasons. But I do know he hasn't played the same role there. For India, for example, see here. I had a friend (Jewish!) who taught in China for several years a while ago, and she said when she asked for essays on historical figures she routinely got admiring essays about Hitler, not for the mass murder part but for the strong leader part. Like, they just thought that the Holocaust was incidental to Hitler's trajectory, not requiring a mention. Hitler's rep seems more like Napoleon's in some ways.
I totally disagree with this stuff--I mean, I do think Hitler should be treated as uniquely evil. But I think the bafflement in the article is assuming that everyone starts with the same idea of Hitler.
posted by mark k at 5:22 AM on August 3, 2023
there's a movie (originally) called Dear Friend Hitler riffing off of the penpalship Gandhi had with the guy....
I yield to your expertise, so do correct me if I'm wrong....but this penpalship was an early-1920s and 30s thing, yes? I think a lot of other world leaders didn't really "get" how dangerous Hitler was for a long time, and so it stands to reason, to my mind, that younger activists (as Gandhi would have been at the time) would also likely not have sensed anything amiss.
I don't think anyone outside Germany really had that much of a sense of what Hitler was getting ready to do or what he was capable of until it was too late, so several people were likely still assuming he could be reasoned with. Hell, British PM Neville Chamberlain was trying to use diplomatic solutions to keep Hitler in check in 1938.
Today we know that Hitler was a fiend, but in the 1920s and 30s, the attitude worldwide was "come on, he's an intelligent man and can probably be reasoned with, right? He's not, like, pure evil."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I yield to your expertise, so do correct me if I'm wrong....but this penpalship was an early-1920s and 30s thing, yes? I think a lot of other world leaders didn't really "get" how dangerous Hitler was for a long time, and so it stands to reason, to my mind, that younger activists (as Gandhi would have been at the time) would also likely not have sensed anything amiss.
I don't think anyone outside Germany really had that much of a sense of what Hitler was getting ready to do or what he was capable of until it was too late, so several people were likely still assuming he could be reasoned with. Hell, British PM Neville Chamberlain was trying to use diplomatic solutions to keep Hitler in check in 1938.
Today we know that Hitler was a fiend, but in the 1920s and 30s, the attitude worldwide was "come on, he's an intelligent man and can probably be reasoned with, right? He's not, like, pure evil."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suppose but for my own discernment it all came together and became of a piece to what I have come to understand about his (complicated? Why do some ppl get "complicated"?) character. In addition to the South Africa link I shared above, there's also the thing about him and young women. A pretty okay summary of his legacy here in this 2019 piece.
But specifically he's just an emblem of the larger thread of how India understands Hitler and with it, Nazism. That could've stayed an overlooked historical trivia (and it's not like the British allowed the letter to pass) if filmmakers didn't seek to commit the fact to a fictionalized movie. He's also not the only one at the time even. Chandra Bose allied himself to the Axis powers - so Indians served both under Germany and the British empire.
With all that said, the implication is that then this movie under discussion is ... Not even the worst offender, considering the culture in place.
posted by cendawanita at 6:34 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
But specifically he's just an emblem of the larger thread of how India understands Hitler and with it, Nazism. That could've stayed an overlooked historical trivia (and it's not like the British allowed the letter to pass) if filmmakers didn't seek to commit the fact to a fictionalized movie. He's also not the only one at the time even. Chandra Bose allied himself to the Axis powers - so Indians served both under Germany and the British empire.
With all that said, the implication is that then this movie under discussion is ... Not even the worst offender, considering the culture in place.
posted by cendawanita at 6:34 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do think Hitler should be treated as uniquely evil. But I think the bafflement in the article is assuming that everyone starts with the same idea of Hitler
This part.
posted by cendawanita at 6:35 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
This part.
posted by cendawanita at 6:35 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
South African comedian Trevor Noah tells a story about knowing children given nicknames such as Hitler, Mussolini, or Bruce Lee in hopes of emulating "strong men" and having people with these nicknames in his DJ entrouage when he was just starting out in his very early days. As he tells it....
We also need to understand that there are many histories, and they are all taught in different ways. In many educational systems, history is mostly taught as a bunch of facts to be memorized, regurgitated on a test, and then inevitably forgotten. As Noah stated, kids learning about World War II in South Africa were not being taught to think critically about Hitler, anti-Semitism, or the Holocaust. Neither were they learning that the racist policies of apartheid were inspired by the racist policies of the Third Reich. So in that context, the name Hitler would not carry the same offensive connotation for South Africans as, for example, the name Cecil Rhodes would.
With increased notoriety, the group started being booked in the suburbs. This change meant that they were DJ’ing more and more for white people, and thus came the invitation to perform at the King David School—a Jewish school.
The school was hosting a “cultural day” (a diversity program, so to speak), and Noah’s group, named The South African B-Boys, was one among Greek dancers, flamenco dancers, Zulu musicians, and many others. The B-Boys were anxious and ready to entertain an entire hall filled with Jewish kids. They start playing, the crew starts dancing, and by all accounts everyone present—the teachers, the chaperones, the parents, and the hundreds of kids—were having a great time.
The crowd was finally ready, and Noah proceeded to introduce his star performer by saying, “Give it up and make some noise for HIIIIIIIITTTTTTTLLLLLLLEEEEEEERRRRRRR!!!!!”
Typical to their performances, Hitler entered and positioned himself in the middle of the stage while all the other dancers chanted their usual chant: Go Hitler! Go Hitler! Go Hitler! At this point, the whole room froze and stared aghast. The B-Boys were oblivious and so was Hitler. Then the event organizer jumped on the stage yelling at Noah: “How dare you? This is disgusting! You horrible, disgusting, vile creature! How dare you!!!
The following events then ensued: Noah and the crew were trying to figure out the reasoning behind the teacher’s anger. Because he heard “This is disgusting”, he assumed she (the teacher) was referring to the way the crew was dancing. Hitler’s hips were, after all, gyrating and thrusting quite suggestively, basically simulating a sex act. This immediately propelled Noah into a defensive mode; after all, those were typical dance moves African people do all the time. They were part of their culture, and therefore should be appropriate at a “cultural” performance. In the end, he took offense at her taking offence, the exchange escalated, but it boiled over when the teacher yelled:
“You people are disgusting!
You people was his trigger because, from this point forward, he is seeing her as a racist. From his perspective, South Africans were now free, and they could perform any way they wanted. That phrase basically turned her into the white oppressor who was trying to subjugate them, again. She, of course, was thinking about the Nazis and the horrors World War II inflicted on many, especially the Jews
We need to stop moving on parallel tracks: That is, close enough but never intersecting.
posted by beaning at 7:17 AM on August 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
We also need to understand that there are many histories, and they are all taught in different ways. In many educational systems, history is mostly taught as a bunch of facts to be memorized, regurgitated on a test, and then inevitably forgotten. As Noah stated, kids learning about World War II in South Africa were not being taught to think critically about Hitler, anti-Semitism, or the Holocaust. Neither were they learning that the racist policies of apartheid were inspired by the racist policies of the Third Reich. So in that context, the name Hitler would not carry the same offensive connotation for South Africans as, for example, the name Cecil Rhodes would.
With increased notoriety, the group started being booked in the suburbs. This change meant that they were DJ’ing more and more for white people, and thus came the invitation to perform at the King David School—a Jewish school.
The school was hosting a “cultural day” (a diversity program, so to speak), and Noah’s group, named The South African B-Boys, was one among Greek dancers, flamenco dancers, Zulu musicians, and many others. The B-Boys were anxious and ready to entertain an entire hall filled with Jewish kids. They start playing, the crew starts dancing, and by all accounts everyone present—the teachers, the chaperones, the parents, and the hundreds of kids—were having a great time.
The crowd was finally ready, and Noah proceeded to introduce his star performer by saying, “Give it up and make some noise for HIIIIIIIITTTTTTTLLLLLLLEEEEEEERRRRRRR!!!!!”
Typical to their performances, Hitler entered and positioned himself in the middle of the stage while all the other dancers chanted their usual chant: Go Hitler! Go Hitler! Go Hitler! At this point, the whole room froze and stared aghast. The B-Boys were oblivious and so was Hitler. Then the event organizer jumped on the stage yelling at Noah: “How dare you? This is disgusting! You horrible, disgusting, vile creature! How dare you!!!
The following events then ensued: Noah and the crew were trying to figure out the reasoning behind the teacher’s anger. Because he heard “This is disgusting”, he assumed she (the teacher) was referring to the way the crew was dancing. Hitler’s hips were, after all, gyrating and thrusting quite suggestively, basically simulating a sex act. This immediately propelled Noah into a defensive mode; after all, those were typical dance moves African people do all the time. They were part of their culture, and therefore should be appropriate at a “cultural” performance. In the end, he took offense at her taking offence, the exchange escalated, but it boiled over when the teacher yelled:
“You people are disgusting!
You people was his trigger because, from this point forward, he is seeing her as a racist. From his perspective, South Africans were now free, and they could perform any way they wanted. That phrase basically turned her into the white oppressor who was trying to subjugate them, again. She, of course, was thinking about the Nazis and the horrors World War II inflicted on many, especially the Jews
We need to stop moving on parallel tracks: That is, close enough but never intersecting.
posted by beaning at 7:17 AM on August 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
she routinely got admiring essays about Hitler, not for the mass murder part but for the strong leader part
Yeah, I can confirm that I've heard at least one Chinese person saying they admired Hitler (and Margaret Thatcher for that matter) to a German colleague. (Which was pretty awkward for both of us.)
posted by scorbet at 7:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I can confirm that I've heard at least one Chinese person saying they admired Hitler (and Margaret Thatcher for that matter) to a German colleague. (Which was pretty awkward for both of us.)
posted by scorbet at 7:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
South African comedian Noah Trevor
Correction: His name is Trevor Noah.
posted by cooker girl at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Correction: His name is Trevor Noah.
posted by cooker girl at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Today we know that Hitler was a fiend, but in the 1920s and 30s, the attitude worldwide was "come on, he's an intelligent man and can probably be reasoned with, right? He's not, like, pure evil."
People knew he was a horrible, fanatical, delusional, anti-Semitic, lying, murderous dictator who couldn't truly be reasoned with before the war. For an example, read "Inside Europe" by John Gunther, first published in 1936. I have the updated edition from 1938. The first chapter is a discussion of Hitler's personality. It is not flattering.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
People knew he was a horrible, fanatical, delusional, anti-Semitic, lying, murderous dictator who couldn't truly be reasoned with before the war. For an example, read "Inside Europe" by John Gunther, first published in 1936. I have the updated edition from 1938. The first chapter is a discussion of Hitler's personality. It is not flattering.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm enough of a believer in cultural relativism to be sympathetic to the argument that the filmmakers' background and understanding of/relationship with history makes their choices here less incomprehensible. It doesn't make them less wrong, though. Perhaps more forgivably wrong. But still wrong.
I can maybe see how they got to that mistake, but still a horrible mistake.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on August 3, 2023
I can maybe see how they got to that mistake, but still a horrible mistake.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:29 AM on August 3, 2023
Amazon had to, at some level, make a deliberate choice there.
One of the best things about Prime Video is that they will buy pretty much anything if it's cheap enough. There's a lot of shoestring budget movies on the service. Some of them are pretty well done, if lacking in at least one area of the craft of filmmaking.
One of the worst things about Prime Video is that they will buy pretty much anything if it's cheap enough.
posted by wierdo at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the best things about Prime Video is that they will buy pretty much anything if it's cheap enough. There's a lot of shoestring budget movies on the service. Some of them are pretty well done, if lacking in at least one area of the craft of filmmaking.
One of the worst things about Prime Video is that they will buy pretty much anything if it's cheap enough.
posted by wierdo at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
People knew he was a horrible, fanatical, delusional, anti-Semitic, lying, murderous dictator who couldn't truly be reasoned with before the war.
Here and there some people likely did; how universal was that opinion, though? Hell, some people in 2016 had their reservations about Trump but still thought that "yeah, but surely he's not THAT crazy." And then we all saw different.
That's more what I'm talking about, that shift from "yeah, there's some weird shit going on but he's not TOTALLY deranged" to "oh, hang on, he IS deranged, holy shit."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here and there some people likely did; how universal was that opinion, though? Hell, some people in 2016 had their reservations about Trump but still thought that "yeah, but surely he's not THAT crazy." And then we all saw different.
That's more what I'm talking about, that shift from "yeah, there's some weird shit going on but he's not TOTALLY deranged" to "oh, hang on, he IS deranged, holy shit."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
cooker girl, thank you for the correction of Trevor Noah's name. I apologize for my error, I've flagged it for the mods to correct.
posted by beaning at 9:58 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by beaning at 9:58 AM on August 3, 2023
Mod note: Trevor Noah correction made, carry on!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:00 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:00 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Like, they just thought that the Holocaust was incidental to Hitler's trajectory, not requiring a mention. Hitler's rep seems more like Napoleon's in some ways.
People should think worse of Napoleon-- he got a lot of people killed for no good reason,
For that matter, I believe there should be more emphasis on the people killed in Hitler's War even though the Holocaust was uniquely bad.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:03 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
People should think worse of Napoleon-- he got a lot of people killed for no good reason,
For that matter, I believe there should be more emphasis on the people killed in Hitler's War even though the Holocaust was uniquely bad.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:03 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, “Inside Europe” was a bestseller. The more I have read prewar writings on Hitler and the situation in Europe, the more disturbingly clear it has become that many people knew and were warning the world of the danger. By the 1930s Hitler was widely known to be deranged and dangerous. The depths of the atrocities he was capable may not have been comprehended, but being in denial about the danger of Hitler after 1933 was more like being in denial about Trump and Putin in 2023 than 2016. And goodness knows there are legions of people supporting those two lunatics.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:26 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:26 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hitler's rep seems more like Napoleon's in some ways.
&
People should think worse of Napoleon..
Bit of a derail, but it does seem to tie into the notions of parallel and differing understandings of history. Anyway, opinions of Napoleon depend on who you are talking to. Long ago, a friend from Senegal told me it’s a really big insult to call somebody a Bonaparte.
Lately, my go to phrase for many conflicts of this sort is “know your audience.” So maybe if you want a global audience, you got some homework to do.
posted by house-goblin at 11:07 AM on August 3, 2023
&
People should think worse of Napoleon..
Bit of a derail, but it does seem to tie into the notions of parallel and differing understandings of history. Anyway, opinions of Napoleon depend on who you are talking to. Long ago, a friend from Senegal told me it’s a really big insult to call somebody a Bonaparte.
Lately, my go to phrase for many conflicts of this sort is “know your audience.” So maybe if you want a global audience, you got some homework to do.
posted by house-goblin at 11:07 AM on August 3, 2023
Certainly there's a big difference between how Winston Churchill is viewed in the West and in India. We tend to relegate the Bengal Famine of 1943 to a footnote, when 3 million probably died because of Churchill's policy of prioritizing rice to feed Britain. Churchill also had racist views of Indians. There could be some "enemy of my enemy is my friend" going on in the myopic ignoring of how evil Hitler was and how deliberate immiseration and extermination of whole classes of people was his central goal.
posted by Schmucko at 12:08 PM on August 3, 2023
posted by Schmucko at 12:08 PM on August 3, 2023
Agree re: Churchill. Even so, I must apologize for inviting the derail on working out if the people of his generation saw if Hitler was a genocidal fascist or not pre-1941 simply because one of them is Mohandas K. Gandhi, which I mentioned as additional colour as to why mainstream India society had the conditions that led to this movie.
(ETA because accidentally pressed enter too soon)
posted by cendawanita at 10:22 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
(ETA because accidentally pressed enter too soon)
posted by cendawanita at 10:22 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The trailer is pretty nuts. Some pretty extreme shifts in tone from romcom meet-cute to inside-the-gas-chamber POV shot of Nazis pouring in Zyklon B.
India "sent over two and a half million soldiers to fight under British command against the Axis powers." A much smaller number of people fought with the Axis, primarily to try to gain independence from British colonial rule. The ~43,000-man strong Indian National Army fought against the British under Japanese command. The Battaglione Azad Hindoustan ("Free India Battalion") was a foreign legion unit under Italian command and the Indian Legion was a unit in the German army and later the Waffen SS.
The Bawaal trailer shows what looks like the D-Day landings; the Indian Legion was part of the defending German forces.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:11 PM on August 4, 2023
India "sent over two and a half million soldiers to fight under British command against the Axis powers." A much smaller number of people fought with the Axis, primarily to try to gain independence from British colonial rule. The ~43,000-man strong Indian National Army fought against the British under Japanese command. The Battaglione Azad Hindoustan ("Free India Battalion") was a foreign legion unit under Italian command and the Indian Legion was a unit in the German army and later the Waffen SS.
The Bawaal trailer shows what looks like the D-Day landings; the Indian Legion was part of the defending German forces.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:11 PM on August 4, 2023
Say what you will about Hitler, he did kill Hitler.
OnlyNixon Hitler could kill Hitler.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:18 PM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Only
posted by kirkaracha at 1:18 PM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Related and relevant then, and from an author I follow on fedi:
Contested development imaginaries: Hindutva and the co-optation of ‘decolonisation’, by Kalpana Wilson, Giti Chandra and Lata Narayanaswamy
As the Indian state uses its turn leading the G20 to position itself as a global development leader and representative of the Global South, we focus specifically on the ways in which these development imaginaries are being addressed in India. Ideas and concepts rooted in Hindu supremacism or Hindutva are increasingly circulating in critical development spaces and being accepted or even promoted on the grounds of decolonising, indigenising, and diversifying knowledge production. The conflation of Hindutva by its proponents with Hinduism is a particularly pernicious sleight of hand which has aided this process.
(...)
Many were dismayed when a deeply Islamophobic book about India’s history written by a lawyer affiliated to India’s Hindu supremacist far-right came to be endorsed by leading decolonial thinker Walter Mignolo, whose work the author had extensively cited, although Mignolo later sought to withdraw his endorsement. This was just one, albeit particularly dramatic, example of the way Hindu supremacists aligned with the current dispensation in India are gaining legitimacy by adopting decolonial language, even while perpetuating an ideology drawing inspiration from European fascism and rooted in British colonial versions of Indian history. In fact, contemporary Hindu supremacism, far from being anti-imperialist, is inextricably entwined with global corporate capital, and far from rejecting mainstream notions of neoliberal development, reproduces these same dynamics thereby exacerbating inequality even more.
(...) The spread of Hindu supremacist discourses in critical development spaces is facilitated by an essentialist and ultimately racist understanding of decoloniality among Western academics and practitioners which proposes that any concept or approach which claims to be authentically rooted in communities in the Global South can be accorded ‘epistemic deference’ without any serious engagement with the politics underlying it. This approach assumes that people in the Global South are located ‘outside’ or ‘beyond’ politics, a well-established version of the racialised trope of the pre-modern ‘noble savage’. It is important to recognise that some, if not all, of these assumptions operate on a subconscious level for most academics and practitioners in the conference, critical, or public debate space. Often it is registered only as mild discomfort at having to be the ‘white person’ disputing the ‘indigenous’ speaker, or more explicitly the fear of reproducing discriminating and silencing practices and structures by demanding conventional, European/Western academic forms of evidence in support of the speaker’s arguments.
(...) But if we are aligning ourselves with notions of decoloniality, we have a responsibility to engage with the politics of how they are used. There is no shortcut to this. And if we understand a decolonial approach to be anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and oriented towards social justice, this involves making a commitment to radical solidarity with those resisting fascism and oppression. (...)The principles of anti-racism require structurally privileged critical development scholars located in the Global North to abandon their paternalistic valorisations of ‘authenticity’ and take the risk of critically engaging and exercising political judgement. At this critical juncture of rising global fascism, we should expect nothing less.
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Contested development imaginaries: Hindutva and the co-optation of ‘decolonisation’, by Kalpana Wilson, Giti Chandra and Lata Narayanaswamy
As the Indian state uses its turn leading the G20 to position itself as a global development leader and representative of the Global South, we focus specifically on the ways in which these development imaginaries are being addressed in India. Ideas and concepts rooted in Hindu supremacism or Hindutva are increasingly circulating in critical development spaces and being accepted or even promoted on the grounds of decolonising, indigenising, and diversifying knowledge production. The conflation of Hindutva by its proponents with Hinduism is a particularly pernicious sleight of hand which has aided this process.
(...)
Many were dismayed when a deeply Islamophobic book about India’s history written by a lawyer affiliated to India’s Hindu supremacist far-right came to be endorsed by leading decolonial thinker Walter Mignolo, whose work the author had extensively cited, although Mignolo later sought to withdraw his endorsement. This was just one, albeit particularly dramatic, example of the way Hindu supremacists aligned with the current dispensation in India are gaining legitimacy by adopting decolonial language, even while perpetuating an ideology drawing inspiration from European fascism and rooted in British colonial versions of Indian history. In fact, contemporary Hindu supremacism, far from being anti-imperialist, is inextricably entwined with global corporate capital, and far from rejecting mainstream notions of neoliberal development, reproduces these same dynamics thereby exacerbating inequality even more.
(...) The spread of Hindu supremacist discourses in critical development spaces is facilitated by an essentialist and ultimately racist understanding of decoloniality among Western academics and practitioners which proposes that any concept or approach which claims to be authentically rooted in communities in the Global South can be accorded ‘epistemic deference’ without any serious engagement with the politics underlying it. This approach assumes that people in the Global South are located ‘outside’ or ‘beyond’ politics, a well-established version of the racialised trope of the pre-modern ‘noble savage’. It is important to recognise that some, if not all, of these assumptions operate on a subconscious level for most academics and practitioners in the conference, critical, or public debate space. Often it is registered only as mild discomfort at having to be the ‘white person’ disputing the ‘indigenous’ speaker, or more explicitly the fear of reproducing discriminating and silencing practices and structures by demanding conventional, European/Western academic forms of evidence in support of the speaker’s arguments.
(...) But if we are aligning ourselves with notions of decoloniality, we have a responsibility to engage with the politics of how they are used. There is no shortcut to this. And if we understand a decolonial approach to be anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and oriented towards social justice, this involves making a commitment to radical solidarity with those resisting fascism and oppression. (...)The principles of anti-racism require structurally privileged critical development scholars located in the Global North to abandon their paternalistic valorisations of ‘authenticity’ and take the risk of critically engaging and exercising political judgement. At this critical juncture of rising global fascism, we should expect nothing less.
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
brundlefly - I can assure that among people living in the United States right now, there are people who would consider you to be punished by God for some reason and while they would know better than to shun, you, they have their fundie ways of making it clear.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:54 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lesser Shrew at 3:54 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeesh. I guess I've lucked out. Not a lot of vocal fundies in my area.
posted by brundlefly at 2:01 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 2:01 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought I had lucked out just by not being born hundreds of years ago and burned at the stake or something.
posted by brundlefly at 2:07 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 2:07 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by Horace Rumpole at 12:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]