Hot Dogs, again? Deviled Eggs, meh. Burgers, well. how 'bout..
July 1, 2017 2:40 PM Subscribe
Easier done than said. Like the origins of most recipes that came from Old Countries to enrich the dinner tables of the Americas, the exact origin of baklava is also something hard to put the finger on because every ethnic group whose ancestry goes back to the Middle East has a claim of their own on this scrumptious pastry.
Angelo's Mom.
Easy Peasy
Simple
Just takes a lil time.
The history of Baklava changed with the history of the land. The Near and Middle East saw many civilizations come and go. Baklava and the recipe had spread to the Near East, Armenia, and Turkey. With the advent of the Grecian Empire, it spread westward to Greece.
Phyllo dough is named after the greek word for "leaf", being "as thin as a leaf". The thickness (or for that matter, the thinness) of Phyllo gives baklava is delicious crispy taste. So, when some people eat a piece of baklava,they may want to think of Greece. However, the history of baklava reveals it came from farther East... Even so, various countries offer tasty variations and have loyal followings.
Angelo's Mom.
Easy Peasy
Simple
Just takes a lil time.
The history of Baklava changed with the history of the land. The Near and Middle East saw many civilizations come and go. Baklava and the recipe had spread to the Near East, Armenia, and Turkey. With the advent of the Grecian Empire, it spread westward to Greece.
Phyllo dough is named after the greek word for "leaf", being "as thin as a leaf". The thickness (or for that matter, the thinness) of Phyllo gives baklava is delicious crispy taste. So, when some people eat a piece of baklava,they may want to think of Greece. However, the history of baklava reveals it came from farther East... Even so, various countries offer tasty variations and have loyal followings.
Some more history can be read here and I found this tidbit about the word itself particularly fascinating:
“Just like there is difference of opinion over baklava origins, the source of the word baklava is also disputed. The word baklava entered the English language in 1650, a borrowing from Ottoman Turkish.posted by Fizz at 2:59 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Turkish etymologists claim of its Turkish origin (baklağı or baklağu); whereas some say “baklava” may come from the Mongolian root baγla- ‘to tie, wrap up, pile up’. Bayla- itself in Mongolian is a Turkic loanword. Though the suffix –va suggests its Persian origins; however the word ‘baqla’ is not Persian rather it is of Arabic origin meaning bean, but its Arabic name baqlāwa is doubtless a borrowing from Turkish .⁴
According to another source “The Armenians even insist that the word itself–baklava—reveals its Armenian origins as the word appears to be related to the Armenian word for bakh (Lent) and halvah (sweet).”⁵”
If you all are going to keep talking about it, slide that tray over here.
posted by Samizdata at 3:32 PM on July 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 3:32 PM on July 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Damn it. Now I want baklava and bird's nests. And moussaka. And spanakopita. And... and... AAAAHHHH!
posted by Splunge at 4:10 PM on July 1, 2017
posted by Splunge at 4:10 PM on July 1, 2017
“The Armenians even insist that the word itself–baklava—reveals its Armenian origins as the word appears to be related to the Armenian word for bakh (Lent) and halvah (sweet).
One of the interesting (and entirely understandable, particularly in light of the monstrous brutality of the genocides of the early 20th century) things about modern Armenian (and Greek) culture (and for all I know the culture of many others who fell under Ottoman control) is a resistance to acknowledging the existence of any shared Ottoman culture. This sort of claim seems, to me, an illustration of that resistance.
Despite the great antiquity of the Armenian language(s), it is clear that "halva" is a word of Arabic origin. That doesn't necessarily mean that the word entered Armenian through its use as a Turkish loanword, of course. This sort of claim seems, to me, to be less about mere national pride, and more an expression of a right to cultural existence. The Ottomans (and then Turkey) literally sought to erase Armenian existence. I think that asserting the Armenian origin of halvah reflects, at least in part a resistance to the cruel and painful cultural dissonance enforced upon Armenia by being inherently bound to a its nemesis. It's interesting, but it's also important. Regarded in certain ways the issue of historical etymology is irrelevant to this sort of claim, because of their deep cultural and political significance.
I am in two minds about this, though (although I know that the former of these minds is wrong). Part of me, the part that stems from my privileged white Western identity, wishes that historical enmities of this sort could be put aside and forgotten, for the good of the future. But another part of me, the part of me that has seen and lived alongside the suffering that continues to be inflicted by the Armenian genocide and its denial, realises that these things aren't just history. That you can't just wipe the slate clean, and that repentance and atonement are required in order for the wounds that Armenians (in particular diasporan Armenians) continue to suffer. That, until there is justice, there will always be a reason to resist. And there will never be a magic wand for peace and democracy, no matter what politicians with their sub-Churchillian fantasies of "exporting democracy" may imagine.
posted by howfar at 4:18 PM on July 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
One of the interesting (and entirely understandable, particularly in light of the monstrous brutality of the genocides of the early 20th century) things about modern Armenian (and Greek) culture (and for all I know the culture of many others who fell under Ottoman control) is a resistance to acknowledging the existence of any shared Ottoman culture. This sort of claim seems, to me, an illustration of that resistance.
Despite the great antiquity of the Armenian language(s), it is clear that "halva" is a word of Arabic origin. That doesn't necessarily mean that the word entered Armenian through its use as a Turkish loanword, of course. This sort of claim seems, to me, to be less about mere national pride, and more an expression of a right to cultural existence. The Ottomans (and then Turkey) literally sought to erase Armenian existence. I think that asserting the Armenian origin of halvah reflects, at least in part a resistance to the cruel and painful cultural dissonance enforced upon Armenia by being inherently bound to a its nemesis. It's interesting, but it's also important. Regarded in certain ways the issue of historical etymology is irrelevant to this sort of claim, because of their deep cultural and political significance.
I am in two minds about this, though (although I know that the former of these minds is wrong). Part of me, the part that stems from my privileged white Western identity, wishes that historical enmities of this sort could be put aside and forgotten, for the good of the future. But another part of me, the part of me that has seen and lived alongside the suffering that continues to be inflicted by the Armenian genocide and its denial, realises that these things aren't just history. That you can't just wipe the slate clean, and that repentance and atonement are required in order for the wounds that Armenians (in particular diasporan Armenians) continue to suffer. That, until there is justice, there will always be a reason to resist. And there will never be a magic wand for peace and democracy, no matter what politicians with their sub-Churchillian fantasies of "exporting democracy" may imagine.
posted by howfar at 4:18 PM on July 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just had baklava for (I think) the first time last week, from a fundraiser booth run by the university Turkish students club. It was indeed like something made in heaven.
posted by traveler_ at 4:29 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by traveler_ at 4:29 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Here, hold my balalaika while I doff my balaclava to your excellent baklava post!
posted by Floydd at 4:36 PM on July 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Floydd at 4:36 PM on July 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think I've only had baklava once or twice, and was "meh" about it - but I think that may be because I've had super-saturated-sweet batches both times.
However, upon reading that the basic recipe is filo dough with a viscuous sweetener and chopped nuts, I find myself wondering what it would be like if you used pecans and dark corn syrup and made a sort of baklava/pecan pie hybrid.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 PM on July 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
However, upon reading that the basic recipe is filo dough with a viscuous sweetener and chopped nuts, I find myself wondering what it would be like if you used pecans and dark corn syrup and made a sort of baklava/pecan pie hybrid.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 PM on July 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't know if I can trust people who don't like baklava. Greek babysitter ftw!
posted by kevinbelt at 4:55 PM on July 1, 2017
posted by kevinbelt at 4:55 PM on July 1, 2017
My favorite day in my old job was when our director of marketing, of Middle Eastern descent, and our CFO, of Greek descent, had a bake-off to see whose family recipe was better.
There were no losers.
posted by olinerd at 5:08 PM on July 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
There were no losers.
posted by olinerd at 5:08 PM on July 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Baklava and balaclava are two words my tongue frequently crosses up for whatever reason. It's a continual source of amusement for the guy behind the counter at the local gyro joint.
posted by calamari kid at 5:27 PM on July 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by calamari kid at 5:27 PM on July 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think it was reported about the L.A. Terrorist attack- police found a baclava in the suspect's closet.
posted by MtDewd at 6:58 PM on July 1, 2017
posted by MtDewd at 6:58 PM on July 1, 2017
I think I've only had baklava once or twice, and was "meh" about it - but I think that may be because I've had super-saturated-sweet batches both times.
My personal preference is for extremely sweet baklava, but I think that's primarily because I don't put any sugar in coffee, including Arabic coffee, and eating baklava without Arabic coffee is like eating Stilton without port: pretty good, but still a missed opportunity.
I also think that part of the unique excellence of baklava is that it manages to be crisp at the same time as having the sponge-like property of becoming moist when you bite into it, as the sugar syrup is squeezed out from between the layers, which is why my ideal baklava is very well saturated.
I find myself wondering what it would be like if you used pecans and dark corn syrup and made a sort of baklava/pecan pie hybrid.
Walnut baklava is very common, and there are definitely recipes that use pecans instead. I think that I'd personally argue for keeping the syrup simple, because a stronger flavoured syrup is likely to mask the taste of the pastry (I am not very convinced by honey baklava either). But I'm sure it would still be good either way.
Baklava and balaclava are two words my tongue frequently crosses up for whatever reason.
The emphasis in baklava is on the first syllable, and the second two 'a's are pretty much schwas. "Bakləvə".
posted by howfar at 7:05 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
My personal preference is for extremely sweet baklava, but I think that's primarily because I don't put any sugar in coffee, including Arabic coffee, and eating baklava without Arabic coffee is like eating Stilton without port: pretty good, but still a missed opportunity.
I also think that part of the unique excellence of baklava is that it manages to be crisp at the same time as having the sponge-like property of becoming moist when you bite into it, as the sugar syrup is squeezed out from between the layers, which is why my ideal baklava is very well saturated.
I find myself wondering what it would be like if you used pecans and dark corn syrup and made a sort of baklava/pecan pie hybrid.
Walnut baklava is very common, and there are definitely recipes that use pecans instead. I think that I'd personally argue for keeping the syrup simple, because a stronger flavoured syrup is likely to mask the taste of the pastry (I am not very convinced by honey baklava either). But I'm sure it would still be good either way.
Baklava and balaclava are two words my tongue frequently crosses up for whatever reason.
The emphasis in baklava is on the first syllable, and the second two 'a's are pretty much schwas. "Bakləvə".
posted by howfar at 7:05 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Although, having said that, it's entirely possible that pronunciations in different languages are very different to what I'm used to hearing.
posted by howfar at 7:14 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by howfar at 7:14 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Waiting for that tray
posted by growabrain at 8:07 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by growabrain at 8:07 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
That was a very thoughtful and sensitive comment Howfar, thanks.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:51 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:51 PM on July 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, and an addendum to the article itself: in the Bible (Exodus 16:31) manna is described as tasting like "wafers with honey" (the phrase "made with" is spurious). The word translated here as "wafers" appears nowhere else in the Bible, but its etymology implies that it means "something flattened out". Since the Bible has another, well known word for flatbread I can only think it means stretched dough.
To me, the fact that manna is compared to something specific implies the existence of dish called wafers-with-honey, with a taste of its own that was distinct from "honey" or even "bread dipped in honey". Like the Assyrian equivalent it was probably a proto-baklava.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:22 PM on July 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
To me, the fact that manna is compared to something specific implies the existence of dish called wafers-with-honey, with a taste of its own that was distinct from "honey" or even "bread dipped in honey". Like the Assyrian equivalent it was probably a proto-baklava.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:22 PM on July 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
The best thing I ever did was tell an Egyptian colleague that her baklava was the best is ever tasted because now whenever she makes any, she brings me some! And it's true - it's got sort of fluffy marshmallow-y bits in the middle and it's more buttery and less drowned in honey than Greek or Lebanese baklava I've had.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:16 AM on July 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ChuraChura at 12:16 AM on July 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think that I'd personally argue for keeping the syrup simple, because a stronger flavoured syrup is likely to mask the taste of the pastry (I am not very convinced by honey baklava either).
Oh hey, maybe that's what I was reacting to. I think that both times I've tried baklava it was with honey, and a shit-ton of it. It was like I couldn't taste anything but crunchy honey, which wasn't bad as such, just kind of like honey overload. I think I was leaning towards the dark corn syrup because it already has a sort of "this flavor equals pecan pie" association in my head.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:29 AM on July 2, 2017
Oh hey, maybe that's what I was reacting to. I think that both times I've tried baklava it was with honey, and a shit-ton of it. It was like I couldn't taste anything but crunchy honey, which wasn't bad as such, just kind of like honey overload. I think I was leaning towards the dark corn syrup because it already has a sort of "this flavor equals pecan pie" association in my head.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:29 AM on July 2, 2017
Despite the great antiquity of the Armenian language(s), it is clear that "halva" is a word of Arabic origin. That doesn't necessarily mean that the word entered Armenian through its use as a Turkish loanword, of course.
What makes this clear? Is there a different word for "sweet" in Armenian beyond a certain point in history? I mean it seems feasible to me, but since the Armenian, Arabic, and Ottoman empires were all conquering and re-conquering the same region, I would also think there could be some third source language, maybe even another Semitic one, which they all ultimately got it from.
posted by XMLicious at 11:54 AM on July 2, 2017
The Lebanese Catholic kids' gift of a baklava saves the day in Winona's Pony Cart.
posted by brujita at 1:09 PM on July 2, 2017
posted by brujita at 1:09 PM on July 2, 2017
The beau asked for baklava for his birthday last year. I freaked out a lot about it, but I made it. I think the hardest part of making it might have actually been getting the rosewater.
It turned out pretty well, although nowhere near as good as the baklava made by the ladies at the Greek Orthodox Church for their food festival every year. That's about the only time of the year I actually like baklava. And they make like six kinds of it, from as teeth-achingly sweet to as less sweet as you can stand it. (I liked the shredded phyllo one the best.)
posted by PearlRose at 12:52 PM on July 3, 2017
It turned out pretty well, although nowhere near as good as the baklava made by the ladies at the Greek Orthodox Church for their food festival every year. That's about the only time of the year I actually like baklava. And they make like six kinds of it, from as teeth-achingly sweet to as less sweet as you can stand it. (I liked the shredded phyllo one the best.)
posted by PearlRose at 12:52 PM on July 3, 2017
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And, if it is made well, harder to take the finger off.
posted by Splunge at 2:59 PM on July 1, 2017 [7 favorites]