In Egypt, a campaign to promote an ‘Egyptian Islam’
October 9, 2013 8:55 PM Subscribe
In Egypt, a campaign to promote an ‘Egyptian Islam’ “This is the new regime trying to create an official Islam, a state Islam, which doesn’t exist within the Islamic tradition,” said Emad Shahin, a professor of public policy at the American University in Cairo. “It’s providing a religious justification to tolerate the killing of possibly thousands of people, and it is sending alarming signals into many segments of society. This is exactly what you call fascism.”
“We want to return religion to its rightful place, as a forum of spiritual guidance, not as a forum of political debate.”
[...]
Morsi supporters say they are hearing new sermons, sometimes urging them to rally around the military, other times dwelling on matters such as health care.
[...]
“Last Friday, the preaching was all about military rule and the marches,” said Mohamed Ali, a doctor, speaking during one of the dwindling Friday protests by Morsi supporters. “This Friday, it was about the treatment of honey for diseases. I wanted to leave, but I felt it was not acceptable.”
[...]
“These preachers are taking orders from the government, and it’s a united message in all the mosques,” said Ala Ahmed, 32. “It is military rule, and we are living our lives according to them, even the sermons.”
A couple interesting comments from the article:
1
When person's or a whole group zeal to an extremist view justifies oppression and killing, the actions taken in the name of these ideals are with such determination that they are with complete disregard to the perpetrators own safety and risk their lives, but all is considered fair price for the promised "martyrdom" and "heaven".
Terrorism is not a backlash. It is a separate crime and should be punished as the original incident that caused this so-called backlash. Though, the majority of losses unfortunately fall with in the premise of practically suicide as explained above, the other incidents that are actually security forces brutality are admittedly not investigated properly. Liberties can not include freedom to oppress others.
2
...when you're dealing with people culturally mired in an obsolete, regressive, triumphalist ancient religion they're capable of endless idiocy. There's a reason why pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody ever enters into any of the Abrahamic faiths in the first place is either through childhood brainwashing or else in rather profound ignorance of their own "scriptures."
[...]
I have resisted for decades the word around the campfire from the adults when I was growing up: what Muslims do best in all the world is to kill other Muslims.
“We want to return religion to its rightful place, as a forum of spiritual guidance, not as a forum of political debate.”
[...]
Morsi supporters say they are hearing new sermons, sometimes urging them to rally around the military, other times dwelling on matters such as health care.
[...]
“Last Friday, the preaching was all about military rule and the marches,” said Mohamed Ali, a doctor, speaking during one of the dwindling Friday protests by Morsi supporters. “This Friday, it was about the treatment of honey for diseases. I wanted to leave, but I felt it was not acceptable.”
[...]
“These preachers are taking orders from the government, and it’s a united message in all the mosques,” said Ala Ahmed, 32. “It is military rule, and we are living our lives according to them, even the sermons.”
A couple interesting comments from the article:
1
When person's or a whole group zeal to an extremist view justifies oppression and killing, the actions taken in the name of these ideals are with such determination that they are with complete disregard to the perpetrators own safety and risk their lives, but all is considered fair price for the promised "martyrdom" and "heaven".
Terrorism is not a backlash. It is a separate crime and should be punished as the original incident that caused this so-called backlash. Though, the majority of losses unfortunately fall with in the premise of practically suicide as explained above, the other incidents that are actually security forces brutality are admittedly not investigated properly. Liberties can not include freedom to oppress others.
2
...when you're dealing with people culturally mired in an obsolete, regressive, triumphalist ancient religion they're capable of endless idiocy. There's a reason why pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody ever enters into any of the Abrahamic faiths in the first place is either through childhood brainwashing or else in rather profound ignorance of their own "scriptures."
[...]
I have resisted for decades the word around the campfire from the adults when I was growing up: what Muslims do best in all the world is to kill other Muslims.
I'm not a big fan of state religion, particularly when used to justify the killing of thousands, but I'm not sure it in itself fits the definition of "fascism".
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:20 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:20 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is it true to say that a "State Islam" doesn't exist within the Islamic tradition? I thought that was what the idea of a Caliphate was about; also, don't the countries whose constitutions assert that they are subject to Islamic law have some sort of practical definition of what that means?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:30 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:30 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Joe in Australia: "Is it true to say that a "State Islam" doesn't exist within the Islamic tradition? I thought that was what the idea of a Caliphate was about; also, don't the countries whose constitutions assert that they are subject to Islamic law have some sort of practical definition of what that means"
The idea of the caliphate, as I understand it, is that it supersedes the constituent nation states and becomes one religious-geographic state, where religion trumps (old) nationality.
What it seems they're accusing the Egyptian regime of here is creating a sanitized national Islam, much like a state religion, and then enforcing it as the only acceptable Islam, but in no way letting Islam have precedence over the nation state.
I'd think the Muslim Brotherhood are more down with the idea of the caliphate.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:44 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
The idea of the caliphate, as I understand it, is that it supersedes the constituent nation states and becomes one religious-geographic state, where religion trumps (old) nationality.
What it seems they're accusing the Egyptian regime of here is creating a sanitized national Islam, much like a state religion, and then enforcing it as the only acceptable Islam, but in no way letting Islam have precedence over the nation state.
I'd think the Muslim Brotherhood are more down with the idea of the caliphate.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:44 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is it true to say that a "State Islam" doesn't exist within the Islamic tradition? I thought that was what the idea of a Caliphate was about; also, don't the countries whose constitutions assert that they are subject to Islamic law have some sort of practical definition of what that means?
Here's a nice summary. There appear to be many strains within Islam, including a liberal version. That said, how many well-off Islamic nations are there? Not many - and those that are well off are pretty autocratic. Allowing for poverty, natural resistance to extreme autocracy, and a strong fundamentalist potential, it's not surprising the we see radical elements appear that appeal to the masses.
Another thing is that Islam is rather unique in the way that political policy-making is woven throughout the text; so the other variable is that it's hard to avoid religion as a "thing" if you live in an Islamic country.
I don't see the Egyptian effort as fascist, but rather as an attempt to impose a more moderate form of political debate within a more moderate approach to conflict. That said, the police state that Egyptians thought had finally went by the wayside was always waiting in the wings. What a pity. Egyptians are caught between two extremes.
Maybe the Egyptian Spring will evolve in a way that sees the military easing up a bit until it can restore order and find a way to neutralize the Brotherhood. It's pretty safe to say that the Brotherhood would ultimately been just as bad as what it replaced. I feel sorry for the Egyptian people. Religion mixed into politics creates universal fuck-ups. When will we humans learn?
posted by Vibrissae at 9:52 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here's a nice summary. There appear to be many strains within Islam, including a liberal version. That said, how many well-off Islamic nations are there? Not many - and those that are well off are pretty autocratic. Allowing for poverty, natural resistance to extreme autocracy, and a strong fundamentalist potential, it's not surprising the we see radical elements appear that appeal to the masses.
Another thing is that Islam is rather unique in the way that political policy-making is woven throughout the text; so the other variable is that it's hard to avoid religion as a "thing" if you live in an Islamic country.
I don't see the Egyptian effort as fascist, but rather as an attempt to impose a more moderate form of political debate within a more moderate approach to conflict. That said, the police state that Egyptians thought had finally went by the wayside was always waiting in the wings. What a pity. Egyptians are caught between two extremes.
Maybe the Egyptian Spring will evolve in a way that sees the military easing up a bit until it can restore order and find a way to neutralize the Brotherhood. It's pretty safe to say that the Brotherhood would ultimately been just as bad as what it replaced. I feel sorry for the Egyptian people. Religion mixed into politics creates universal fuck-ups. When will we humans learn?
posted by Vibrissae at 9:52 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
some sort of practical definition of what that means
A big "not really" on that point Joe, at least here in Malaysia where Islam is the State Religion. There are all kinds of issues with jurisdiction and scope and whatnot that just haven't been resolved. In part I'd guess it is because a modern nation-state with constitution etc is a concept only 50-70 years old in most places? So there is a lot of case law still to be tried. Speaking as a muslim living under state Islam, the main outcome for me has been really boring Friday sermons. But you know, it beat the really angry, firebreathing ones of pre-9/11 in a lot of American ones. So it's kind of a wash. On the whole I'm comfortable with affairs being broad and bland in the big communal mosques and letting the active spiritual life happen elsewhere.
posted by BinGregory at 10:01 PM on October 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
A big "not really" on that point Joe, at least here in Malaysia where Islam is the State Religion. There are all kinds of issues with jurisdiction and scope and whatnot that just haven't been resolved. In part I'd guess it is because a modern nation-state with constitution etc is a concept only 50-70 years old in most places? So there is a lot of case law still to be tried. Speaking as a muslim living under state Islam, the main outcome for me has been really boring Friday sermons. But you know, it beat the really angry, firebreathing ones of pre-9/11 in a lot of American ones. So it's kind of a wash. On the whole I'm comfortable with affairs being broad and bland in the big communal mosques and letting the active spiritual life happen elsewhere.
posted by BinGregory at 10:01 PM on October 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
Fascism and capitalism go fist in glove together. Hence USG support for both in Egypt.
posted by SteveLaudig at 10:29 PM on October 9, 2013
posted by SteveLaudig at 10:29 PM on October 9, 2013
There's a reason why pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody ever enters into any of the Abrahamic faiths in the first place is either through childhood brainwashing or else in rather profound ignorance of their own "scriptures."
Neverminding the crass tone, is this even true? Islam has made significant inroads in the West where it is most often more scripturally focused than the way the religion is practiced in traditionally muslim countries. Islamic revivalism of the MB variety is often more intellectual than the "folk Islam" it disparages and displaces. And among the radicalized, the pattern is more often a secular-ish person who is radicalized by well-developed (albeit twisted) scriptural rationales ... and thus deprogrammable. Case in point, the 40 or so Singaporean members of JI who were "talked down" by explicitly scriptural/theological argumentation [RRG].
posted by BinGregory at 10:30 PM on October 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
Neverminding the crass tone, is this even true? Islam has made significant inroads in the West where it is most often more scripturally focused than the way the religion is practiced in traditionally muslim countries. Islamic revivalism of the MB variety is often more intellectual than the "folk Islam" it disparages and displaces. And among the radicalized, the pattern is more often a secular-ish person who is radicalized by well-developed (albeit twisted) scriptural rationales ... and thus deprogrammable. Case in point, the 40 or so Singaporean members of JI who were "talked down" by explicitly scriptural/theological argumentation [RRG].
posted by BinGregory at 10:30 PM on October 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
an ‘Egyptian Islam’
Also in Malaysia, the former Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi tried a government program? initiative? slogan? of "Islam Hadhari", or "civilizational Islam". Nobody really understood it, me first of all, but it had something to do with formalizing the Malaysian Islamic tradition as the state religion. It basically already is, so everyone was confused, but nobody liked the idea of an adjective before or after the word "Islam" and it contributed, at least in small part, to his ouster. Point being, if the Egyptian religious apparatus is already funded and overseen by the state, they'd do better to just exert influence quietly and drop the fancy branding.
posted by BinGregory at 11:11 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also in Malaysia, the former Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi tried a government program? initiative? slogan? of "Islam Hadhari", or "civilizational Islam". Nobody really understood it, me first of all, but it had something to do with formalizing the Malaysian Islamic tradition as the state religion. It basically already is, so everyone was confused, but nobody liked the idea of an adjective before or after the word "Islam" and it contributed, at least in small part, to his ouster. Point being, if the Egyptian religious apparatus is already funded and overseen by the state, they'd do better to just exert influence quietly and drop the fancy branding.
posted by BinGregory at 11:11 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fascism and capitalism go fist in glove together.
Huh? Fascism was a reaction to Bolshevism. It was a political movement that began in Italy in the wake of the Russian revolution. Fascism is anti-Bolshevism.
In a region (the Middle East) where communism has more or less vanished completely, it would seem odd that there remains a political movement based on anti-communism. Anti-religion perhaps, anti-colonial certainly, but anti-communist? No way.
posted by three blind mice at 1:08 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Huh? Fascism was a reaction to Bolshevism. It was a political movement that began in Italy in the wake of the Russian revolution. Fascism is anti-Bolshevism.
In a region (the Middle East) where communism has more or less vanished completely, it would seem odd that there remains a political movement based on anti-communism. Anti-religion perhaps, anti-colonial certainly, but anti-communist? No way.
posted by three blind mice at 1:08 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
BinGregory: the "the only ways that virtually anybody ever enters into any of the Abrahamic faiths in the first place ..." comment sounds weird to me. I'm not sure what they're trying to say, but it is self-evidently not true. Converts are frequently drawn from more religiously knowlegeable people, because those are the people who are actually interested in religion. I'm very much not a Mormon, but my understanding is that Mormon missionaries frequently tout their faith as "find out what happened to Jesus after the events in your Bible", or something like that. It's not a line that would work with someone who wasn't already familiar with the Christian scriptures.
Also, am I being too cynical or would many of the people opposed to the Egyptian government's move actually be in favor of State control of preachers if they were the right sort of preachers? I.e., they're not opposed to the union of Church (ahem) and State, but they see this as a government attempt to control religion without influence flowing the other way.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:28 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, am I being too cynical or would many of the people opposed to the Egyptian government's move actually be in favor of State control of preachers if they were the right sort of preachers? I.e., they're not opposed to the union of Church (ahem) and State, but they see this as a government attempt to control religion without influence flowing the other way.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:28 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
What it seems they're accusing the Egyptian regime of here is creating a sanitized national Islam
given the alternative variants, this sounds like a positive development, then.
posted by jpe at 1:29 AM on October 10, 2013
given the alternative variants, this sounds like a positive development, then.
posted by jpe at 1:29 AM on October 10, 2013
Is any other branch of Islam besides strict Wahabbism allowed in Saudi Arabia? I understand that almost all Muslims can make pilgrimage to Mecca but can the Ismailis or the Sufis open a mosque there?
posted by PenDevil at 3:12 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by PenDevil at 3:12 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
people opposed to the Egyptian government's move actually be in favor of State control of preachers if they were the right sort of preachers
Joe, I think that's true, and more or less what the article admits anyway -
Morsi [removed] moderate preachers considered to be Mubarak allies and replac[ed] them with Islamists who proselytized for Morsi’s agenda.
I don't think anyone could expect differently when the mosques are under Ministry-run. The trick is for the ruler of the moment not to be too ham-handed about it is all. What with pigs being haram and everything.
posted by BinGregory at 4:28 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Joe, I think that's true, and more or less what the article admits anyway -
Morsi [removed] moderate preachers considered to be Mubarak allies and replac[ed] them with Islamists who proselytized for Morsi’s agenda.
I don't think anyone could expect differently when the mosques are under Ministry-run. The trick is for the ruler of the moment not to be too ham-handed about it is all. What with pigs being haram and everything.
posted by BinGregory at 4:28 AM on October 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
They've lost their way ever since they turned their backs on Osiris and Ra.
posted by Renoroc at 5:42 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Renoroc at 5:42 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Muslim states have often resorted to supervising the activities of preachers and sometimes censoring them with a heavy hand.
And a quick perusal of news stories from the last three years would provide an ample case for doing it in Egypt [edit], since preachers in the mosques have demonstrated a propensity for rounding up stupid people in large numbers and directing their energy towards attacks against Coptic Christians and other things that do nothing to reverse or even slow Egypt's descent into the abyss.
posted by ocschwar at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2013
And a quick perusal of news stories from the last three years would provide an ample case for doing it in Egypt [edit], since preachers in the mosques have demonstrated a propensity for rounding up stupid people in large numbers and directing their energy towards attacks against Coptic Christians and other things that do nothing to reverse or even slow Egypt's descent into the abyss.
posted by ocschwar at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2013
(That said, I should add that recent stories from Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh indicate that a couple Israeli rabbis need to come into the warm embrace of the Israeli state, and be comforted by the rod and staff of the Shabak.)
posted by ocschwar at 8:02 AM on October 10, 2013
posted by ocschwar at 8:02 AM on October 10, 2013
For reference, Copts are about 10% of the Egyptian population.
I went to a Canadian Coptic Christian religious service once. Friendly people, punishing liturgy. The high parts of the mass were celebrated in the Coptic language (a mostly dead language derived from the language of the pyramid builders), while the rest of the service was dumbed down for the masses and delivered in easy to understand inflected ancient Greek.
One beautiful bit of their tradition: after church, the priest gives everybody a dinner roll as he's shaking hands with them. It's not a magical holy dinner roll. It's an expression of community, grounded in the practical sentiment that no one should have to go home hungry. I suppose that is holy in a different way.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:09 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I went to a Canadian Coptic Christian religious service once. Friendly people, punishing liturgy. The high parts of the mass were celebrated in the Coptic language (a mostly dead language derived from the language of the pyramid builders), while the rest of the service was dumbed down for the masses and delivered in easy to understand inflected ancient Greek.
One beautiful bit of their tradition: after church, the priest gives everybody a dinner roll as he's shaking hands with them. It's not a magical holy dinner roll. It's an expression of community, grounded in the practical sentiment that no one should have to go home hungry. I suppose that is holy in a different way.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:09 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Imagine what the world would be like if General Grant sent agents all over the South in 1865, demanding that every minister and pastor proclaim from the pulpit that the Freedmen are not the "children of Ham" and do not carry his curse.
posted by ocschwar at 8:37 AM on October 10, 2013
posted by ocschwar at 8:37 AM on October 10, 2013
For reference, Copts are about 10% of the Egyptian population.
For the time being....
posted by IndigoJones at 10:22 AM on October 18, 2013
For the time being....
posted by IndigoJones at 10:22 AM on October 18, 2013
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posted by GuyZero at 9:09 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]