A Closer Look at Self-immolations in Freedom Struggles
February 27, 2024 8:27 AM Subscribe
Dying in the Truth: Self-immolation is an unthinkably costly and tragic method of last resort sometimes used by those striving for justice and freedom in asymmetric conflicts. The first person to perform this fiery protest as a modern political tactic is Thich Quang Duc, who sat in the lotus position at a busy intersection in Saigon in 1963 and set himself on fire to decry Buddhist suffering under a pro-Catholic regime. Since the birth of the tactic in 1963, the world has witnessed some 3,000 incidents of self-immolation, according to sociologist Michael Biggs. About 160 of these occurred in Tibet between 2011 and 2018, marking one of the greatest waves of suicide protests in history. Considering the extent of the practice, we, scholars and practitioners of nonviolent resistance, must ask ourselves: Why do some people prefer to die in the truth, rather than to live in a lie? And does the involvement of death, in and of itself, automatically place any tactic in the camp of violence?
In December, an unnamed person self-immolated outside the Israeli consulate in Atlanta, a story I only heard about in the wake of Bushnell's death.
posted by the sobsister at 8:51 AM on February 27 [17 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 8:51 AM on February 27 [17 favorites]
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posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
It still amazes me that the security detail to the Israeli embassy pointed their guns at Aaron Bushnell as he burned to death.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:11 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:11 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
That amazing photo of the monk sitting still and erect in what had to be torturus pain, it hit me hard the first time I saw it and it hits me hard still.
I would never have guessed that people survive this for even five minutes, much less days.
The amount of physical courage possessed by these individuals -- I am in awe.
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posted by dancestoblue at 9:28 AM on February 27 [8 favorites]
I would never have guessed that people survive this for even five minutes, much less days.
The amount of physical courage possessed by these individuals -- I am in awe.
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posted by dancestoblue at 9:28 AM on February 27 [8 favorites]
I think - I hesitate to say this, because I don't want to take away from it - but while I don't think these self-immolations necessarily are indicative of mental health issues, I do think that happy people who feel good about their lives rarely self-immolate. I'm watching a veteran anti-war activist right now getting a little too into the Bushnell situation, and I'm wondering if he's considering it. He's a principled guy, but he's also had a divorce and some life setbacks lately. I think that the act of political protest and potential good acts to remove some of the barriers people have to suicide.
posted by corb at 9:29 AM on February 27 [34 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:29 AM on February 27 [34 favorites]
Self-immolation is undoubtedly, at least for a Westerner, an act of despair. But despair can have many causes. We always say that despair is mental illness, but it's possible to be full of despair because the world is wrong, because of real horrors and terrible acts. I am filled with despair by the ongoing genocide, it definitely weighs on me, everyday. If I read about it, it weighs on my mind. If I decide to not stay up to date because it's too horrible and there's nothing I can do, this also weighs on my mind. Full of despair or not, what Bushnell did also took courage. If it was courageous for Navalny to return to Russia in an act of suicide that surely does not change the Putin regime, then Bushnell's act was also courageous. I hope something can happen to make us worthy of his courage.
posted by dis_integration at 9:34 AM on February 27 [61 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 9:34 AM on February 27 [61 favorites]
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posted by tofu_crouton at 9:38 AM on February 27
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:38 AM on February 27
If it was courageous for Navalny to return to Russia in an act of suicide that surely does not change the Putin regime, then Bushnell's act was also courageous. I hope something can happen to make us worthy of his courage.
It's one thing to refuse to give in knowing you'll be killed. It's another to do the job for them. We know at least one person wanted Navalny dead. There's no evidence he'd ever do the deed himself to stick it to Putin somehow. It takes courage to say, "I'm not going to give in, you'll have to do the dirty job yourself." Self immolation takes courage, I suppose, about as much as any suicide. I've never found it a particularly meaningful form of protest, and sort of the ultimate kind of group signaling. Peers can kinda understand, everyone else scratches their heads at the tragedy of suicide, at best.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:22 AM on February 27 [7 favorites]
It's one thing to refuse to give in knowing you'll be killed. It's another to do the job for them. We know at least one person wanted Navalny dead. There's no evidence he'd ever do the deed himself to stick it to Putin somehow. It takes courage to say, "I'm not going to give in, you'll have to do the dirty job yourself." Self immolation takes courage, I suppose, about as much as any suicide. I've never found it a particularly meaningful form of protest, and sort of the ultimate kind of group signaling. Peers can kinda understand, everyone else scratches their heads at the tragedy of suicide, at best.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:22 AM on February 27 [7 favorites]
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posted by elkevelvet at 10:25 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 10:25 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
It still amazes me that the security detail to the Israeli embassy pointed their guns at Aaron Bushnell as he burned to death.
Newsweek says it was a US Secret Service officer pointing the gun, not Israeli security.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:27 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
Newsweek says it was a US Secret Service officer pointing the gun, not Israeli security.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:27 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
It seems shocking but I'm sure Secret Service protocols are to suspect a bomb or secondary issue when something like this happens on the steps of a protected building.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:29 AM on February 27 [17 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:29 AM on February 27 [17 favorites]
This is a deeply selfish take, but I can't get the thought out of my head that I could really do with a lower amount of witnessing people dying live on camera in my life.
In the grand scheme of things it's a pretty First World Problems trauma to complain about – I'm not the one in danger – but there's been a pretty steady line of them stretching all the way back to watching 7 people explode as a toddler and I'd like it to stop, please.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:37 AM on February 27 [12 favorites]
In the grand scheme of things it's a pretty First World Problems trauma to complain about – I'm not the one in danger – but there's been a pretty steady line of them stretching all the way back to watching 7 people explode as a toddler and I'd like it to stop, please.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:37 AM on February 27 [12 favorites]
As someone with plenty of mental health struggles, what I hate about this is the same thing I hate about the glorification of school shooters. Every person in a mental ward I've ever met who hadn't succeeded in unaliving themselves thought their cause was *the* cause worth dying for: To end the pain and suffering in their world.
Meanwhile these folks that succeed (the world may never know if Norman Morrison wanted to take his kerosene soaked baby daughter with him for instance, thankfully he didn't) just get used. People tend to forget that while Thich Quang Duc was fighting a oppressive regime backed by the US, the US then sponsored a coup against the regime he was fighting, and _then_ started their war in Vietnam.
I just don't like it, and it's one of the most tragic offshoots of the petroleum age. But I would dare say that immolation as punishment throughout history created more martyrs and perhaps more change. RIP to all of these people and may they not be followed.
posted by nutate at 10:37 AM on February 27 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile these folks that succeed (the world may never know if Norman Morrison wanted to take his kerosene soaked baby daughter with him for instance, thankfully he didn't) just get used. People tend to forget that while Thich Quang Duc was fighting a oppressive regime backed by the US, the US then sponsored a coup against the regime he was fighting, and _then_ started their war in Vietnam.
I just don't like it, and it's one of the most tragic offshoots of the petroleum age. But I would dare say that immolation as punishment throughout history created more martyrs and perhaps more change. RIP to all of these people and may they not be followed.
posted by nutate at 10:37 AM on February 27 [6 favorites]
sort of the ultimate kind of group signaling
If I never see this kind of thought-terminating cliche language again, it'll be too soon.
We are human beings. We seek to convey our opinions, beliefs, and values to other people. Most things we do involve at least some element of group signalling--even some things we do entirely in private. To use this kind of language in a vaguely disdainful way, especially in connection with the fucking suicide of an actual fellow human being, is thus lazy and imperceptive. Further, it comes straight from the conservative playbook--where the desire is to destroy any kind of belief in altruism or public service to provide full coverage for sociopaths' reign--and so no one with any sense should be using it.
I would never encourage anyone to self-immolate and I would try to stop anyone I knew who was planning to do it, but I understand something of why people do it, and it's not to look cool, for God's sake.
posted by praemunire at 10:40 AM on February 27 [89 favorites]
If I never see this kind of thought-terminating cliche language again, it'll be too soon.
We are human beings. We seek to convey our opinions, beliefs, and values to other people. Most things we do involve at least some element of group signalling--even some things we do entirely in private. To use this kind of language in a vaguely disdainful way, especially in connection with the fucking suicide of an actual fellow human being, is thus lazy and imperceptive. Further, it comes straight from the conservative playbook--where the desire is to destroy any kind of belief in altruism or public service to provide full coverage for sociopaths' reign--and so no one with any sense should be using it.
I would never encourage anyone to self-immolate and I would try to stop anyone I knew who was planning to do it, but I understand something of why people do it, and it's not to look cool, for God's sake.
posted by praemunire at 10:40 AM on February 27 [89 favorites]
This is a deeply selfish take, but I can't get the thought out of my head that I could really do with a lower amount of witnessing people dying live on camera in my life.
Don't watch. Seriously. Don't watch. I haven't watched any of the footage, because I have a good idea what it will do to my head. You don't need to take on that specific trauma even if you admire the cause.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
Don't watch. Seriously. Don't watch. I haven't watched any of the footage, because I have a good idea what it will do to my head. You don't need to take on that specific trauma even if you admire the cause.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
Uh, I think it can be an entirely sane response to burn yourself to death publicly as a last resort to affect societal change and try to save countless others from suffering.
Others like to insist that surely there must be something wrong with these people that they take things so damn seriously.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:44 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
Others like to insist that surely there must be something wrong with these people that they take things so damn seriously.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:44 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
I would like to live in a world where setting yourself on fire is not an effective tactic to get attention to a cause. So I would like people to not give this their attention.
posted by straight at 10:50 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 10:50 AM on February 27 [4 favorites]
A massively relevant fact is that there is a genocide currently supported by the US government in which THOUSANDS (probably 10,000+) of children have been murdered. Its worth explicitly stating what Bushnell was protesting.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:51 AM on February 27 [43 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:51 AM on February 27 [43 favorites]
Others like to insist that surely there must be something wrong with these people that they take things so damn seriously.
Only because the apparent reality, that a fascist, ultranationalist faction of Israel politics is in control of the government happily committing genocide and finishing off the people they've long oppressed apparently with the consent of a large swathe of the populace braying for vengeance as an outlet for their pain, is so fucking horrific that they reflexively can't believe it could be that bad.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:52 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
Only because the apparent reality, that a fascist, ultranationalist faction of Israel politics is in control of the government happily committing genocide and finishing off the people they've long oppressed apparently with the consent of a large swathe of the populace braying for vengeance as an outlet for their pain, is so fucking horrific that they reflexively can't believe it could be that bad.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:52 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
sort of the ultimate kind of group signaling
I have a rule that whenever someone lives their gimmick so hard that it kills them I don't get to call them a poser. Kurt Cobain wrote I Hate Myself and I Want to Die and he did exactly that. Tupac and Biggie said some threatening things about and to each other and shortly thereafter their mothers were on television begging for the killing to stop. Amy Winehouse said she wasn't going to rehab and, well, she certainly showed us.
When I think of signaling I think of people whose performative allyship falls short of their commitment. Whatever we might think about people who self-immolate, it's hard to say that they're not all in.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:53 AM on February 27 [21 favorites]
I have a rule that whenever someone lives their gimmick so hard that it kills them I don't get to call them a poser. Kurt Cobain wrote I Hate Myself and I Want to Die and he did exactly that. Tupac and Biggie said some threatening things about and to each other and shortly thereafter their mothers were on television begging for the killing to stop. Amy Winehouse said she wasn't going to rehab and, well, she certainly showed us.
When I think of signaling I think of people whose performative allyship falls short of their commitment. Whatever we might think about people who self-immolate, it's hard to say that they're not all in.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:53 AM on February 27 [21 favorites]
I too would like to live in a world where people didn't have to self-immolate to protest their government's barbaric support of genocide, but that's not the world we live in, and so I have infinite respect for Aaron Bushnell and his impossibly brave actions.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:54 AM on February 27 [33 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:54 AM on February 27 [33 favorites]
Thirty years ago, Might Magazine ran an infographic on how to sever your own ear. It came with helpful illustrations. At the end, it said, "Congratulations, moron, you have cut off your own ear."
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
I'm appalled.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:57 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:57 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Regardless of your politics and how correct they are, killing yourself in an incredibly horrific fashion to prove a point does not work and does not add credibility to your position. You can have good political ideas and still be deeply sick and in need of help.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:57 AM on February 27 [11 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:57 AM on February 27 [11 favorites]
When I think of the limitless pain they suffer in order to send the rest of us a message, which I just know will be ignored, it makes me tremendously sad that such a strong heart & soul is gone.
Such a loss, and at such a terrible price, for probably nothing -- because the real movers & shakers can't be swayed by grand gestures, only by force.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:02 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
Such a loss, and at such a terrible price, for probably nothing -- because the real movers & shakers can't be swayed by grand gestures, only by force.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:02 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
If I never see this kind of thought-terminating cliche language again, it'll be too soon
If it isn't signaling, it really is better described as a tragic mental health issue. Presumably, people who do this want to convey something.
The question is how effective can it possibly be?
When I think of signaling I think of people whose performative allyship falls short of their commitment.
Why would you think of signaling as purely performative? That the signal was clearly received by several responders to the post says the signaling aspect is real. I tend to think suicide is rarely heroic. I'd be curious what a mental health professional would advise to someone pondering a politically motivated self immolation?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:05 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
If it isn't signaling, it really is better described as a tragic mental health issue. Presumably, people who do this want to convey something.
The question is how effective can it possibly be?
When I think of signaling I think of people whose performative allyship falls short of their commitment.
Why would you think of signaling as purely performative? That the signal was clearly received by several responders to the post says the signaling aspect is real. I tend to think suicide is rarely heroic. I'd be curious what a mental health professional would advise to someone pondering a politically motivated self immolation?
posted by 2N2222 at 11:05 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Others like to insist that surely there must be something wrong with these people that they take things so damn seriously.
I think that it is important to push back on the idea that saying someone may have mental health issues going on means that there must be something wrong with them. Often mental health issues are provoked by real actions in the world that create real and lasting trauma and other issues. A number of the strongest activists I know suffer from post-traumatic stress, or deep depression - because the world is fundamentally traumatic and depressing.
To say that someone who takes themselves out of the world is likely someone who did not have a lot of hope for their presence in it should not be taken as an insult. If there is any insult at all, it is for our society - which created the circumstances that brought about so much despair that this seemed the best option.
posted by corb at 11:10 AM on February 27 [23 favorites]
I think that it is important to push back on the idea that saying someone may have mental health issues going on means that there must be something wrong with them. Often mental health issues are provoked by real actions in the world that create real and lasting trauma and other issues. A number of the strongest activists I know suffer from post-traumatic stress, or deep depression - because the world is fundamentally traumatic and depressing.
To say that someone who takes themselves out of the world is likely someone who did not have a lot of hope for their presence in it should not be taken as an insult. If there is any insult at all, it is for our society - which created the circumstances that brought about so much despair that this seemed the best option.
posted by corb at 11:10 AM on February 27 [23 favorites]
If it isn't signaling, it really is better described as a tragic mental health issue. Presumably, people who do this want to convey something.
I'm too old to be pretending I'm brand-new and thus don't know that "signaling" doesn't have specific, critical and dismissive, connotations, so please don't ask me to.
posted by praemunire at 11:10 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
I'm too old to be pretending I'm brand-new and thus don't know that "signaling" doesn't have specific, critical and dismissive, connotations, so please don't ask me to.
posted by praemunire at 11:10 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
Its incredibly telling that if Bushnell died while flying a US plane that just dropped a bomb and killed a bunch of Arabs he would be hailed as a hero, but self-immolation to protest a genocide?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:12 AM on February 27 [34 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:12 AM on February 27 [34 favorites]
I would like to live in a world where setting yourself on fire is not an effective tactic to get attention to a cause.
Frankly a world where that is not an effective tactic seems like a world where nothing is an effective tactic so I don’t think I can agree with this.
posted by atoxyl at 11:13 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
Frankly a world where that is not an effective tactic seems like a world where nothing is an effective tactic so I don’t think I can agree with this.
posted by atoxyl at 11:13 AM on February 27 [22 favorites]
I'm too old to be pretending I'm brand-new and thus don't know that "signaling" doesn't have specific, critical and dismissive, connotations, so please don't ask me to.
I have no idea what you're getting at, but it's better if you addressed the point I made rather than the one in your head.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:15 AM on February 27
I have no idea what you're getting at, but it's better if you addressed the point I made rather than the one in your head.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:15 AM on February 27
Given the sensitive nature of this post, a request that people be generous readers of each other and not assume of the worst interpretation of what someone has written.
Anyway, I think the problem with this as a tactic is that it's so extreme that it will always take place on a small (if not singular) scale, and most people will easily write it off as the action of a "disturbed crazy person." I suppose if 30,000 people did this in unison in front of the Capital building, that would certainly make a loud statement, but then we'd be short 30,000 empaths with the capacity to care for people located far away, and I'd rather keep those sort of people around.
Research has found that calling suicide "brave" can contribute to more people ending their lives. I don't think we should dismiss the reasons for why people are driven to this extreme recourse (Gaza is horrific, as is the climate crisis, etc.) but I think glorifying this tactic is not great.
posted by coffeecat at 11:15 AM on February 27 [10 favorites]
Anyway, I think the problem with this as a tactic is that it's so extreme that it will always take place on a small (if not singular) scale, and most people will easily write it off as the action of a "disturbed crazy person." I suppose if 30,000 people did this in unison in front of the Capital building, that would certainly make a loud statement, but then we'd be short 30,000 empaths with the capacity to care for people located far away, and I'd rather keep those sort of people around.
Research has found that calling suicide "brave" can contribute to more people ending their lives. I don't think we should dismiss the reasons for why people are driven to this extreme recourse (Gaza is horrific, as is the climate crisis, etc.) but I think glorifying this tactic is not great.
posted by coffeecat at 11:15 AM on February 27 [10 favorites]
Regardless of your politics and how correct they are, killing yourself in an incredibly horrific fashion to prove a point does not work and does not add credibility to your position.
Understand that it is not at all an endorsement of self-immolation as a tactic when I beg people to gain some basic knowledge of the history of the twentieth century before they say things like this--another easy, reassuring, and questionably accurate cliche. Allow me to refer you to the comments on the Wynn Bruce link above, which offer several counterexamples that complicate the historical analysis.
posted by praemunire at 11:15 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
Understand that it is not at all an endorsement of self-immolation as a tactic when I beg people to gain some basic knowledge of the history of the twentieth century before they say things like this--another easy, reassuring, and questionably accurate cliche. Allow me to refer you to the comments on the Wynn Bruce link above, which offer several counterexamples that complicate the historical analysis.
posted by praemunire at 11:15 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
Praemunire, I don't have time to read that entire thread, would you mind linking to the counterexamples you are referring to? I would appreciate, genuinely interested in learning more here. I don't have a lot to contribute but I am pretty emotionally impacted my this incident and conversation on highly personal levels in addition to the bigger context.
posted by kittensofthenight at 11:24 AM on February 27
posted by kittensofthenight at 11:24 AM on February 27
I have no idea what you're getting at, but it's better if you addressed the point I made rather than the one in your head.
Hm? I said: "We are human beings. We seek to convey our opinions, beliefs, and values to other people. Most things we do involve at least some element of group signalling--even some things we do entirely in private. To use this kind of language in a vaguely disdainful way, especially in connection with the fucking suicide of an actual fellow human being, is thus lazy and imperceptive."
Your response was: but of course it's signaling, what else could it be besides mental illness?
I assumed that you read what you were responding to, so your argument was simply that "signaling" is neutral language and not objectionable in this context. If that's not what you meant, if you simply did not read that paragraph and were responding to "most things involve signalling, it's an important human behavior, don't use that to dismiss an action" by telling me that it was, in fact, signalling...then thank you for correcting me by repeating me, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 11:26 AM on February 27 [5 favorites]
Hm? I said: "We are human beings. We seek to convey our opinions, beliefs, and values to other people. Most things we do involve at least some element of group signalling--even some things we do entirely in private. To use this kind of language in a vaguely disdainful way, especially in connection with the fucking suicide of an actual fellow human being, is thus lazy and imperceptive."
Your response was: but of course it's signaling, what else could it be besides mental illness?
I assumed that you read what you were responding to, so your argument was simply that "signaling" is neutral language and not objectionable in this context. If that's not what you meant, if you simply did not read that paragraph and were responding to "most things involve signalling, it's an important human behavior, don't use that to dismiss an action" by telling me that it was, in fact, signalling...then thank you for correcting me by repeating me, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 11:26 AM on February 27 [5 favorites]
I don't have a lot to contribute but I am pretty emotionally impacted my this incident and conversation on highly personal levels in addition to the bigger context.
Fair enough. Probably the most familiar example will be Bobby Sands. I stress again that I do not think that most politically-motivated suicide attempts have anywhere near the possibility of effecting sufficient change to merit the cost of a human life, and there's almost no way to know in advance whether one will, but that does not mean that they never do.
(I would also say that if this conversation is stressing you out for personal reasons, I'm sure nobody would judge you for stepping away. Vulnerable people do not need to traumatize themselves further over this. That accomplishes nothing.)
posted by praemunire at 11:34 AM on February 27 [11 favorites]
Fair enough. Probably the most familiar example will be Bobby Sands. I stress again that I do not think that most politically-motivated suicide attempts have anywhere near the possibility of effecting sufficient change to merit the cost of a human life, and there's almost no way to know in advance whether one will, but that does not mean that they never do.
(I would also say that if this conversation is stressing you out for personal reasons, I'm sure nobody would judge you for stepping away. Vulnerable people do not need to traumatize themselves further over this. That accomplishes nothing.)
posted by praemunire at 11:34 AM on February 27 [11 favorites]
Its incredibly telling that if Bushnell died while flying a US plane that just dropped a bomb and killed a bunch of Arabs he would be hailed as a hero, but self-immolation to protest a genocide?
I think about this whenever this comes up: how much more easily we reconcile ourselves, even give praise, to our killing others for a cause than to killing ourselves. I would say that there is an extremely understandable reason to be more circumspect about the latter, as suicide contagion is, as far as we can tell now, a real phenomenon, and suicides for imaginary or completely futile causes are beyond enduring; but then how many mentally ill people have been inspired to murder others by militaristic ideas (and, in many cases, actual military training/experience)? So it's hard to talk about, but important to think about, as a way of clarifying your ideas regarding justifiable violence.
posted by praemunire at 11:40 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
I think about this whenever this comes up: how much more easily we reconcile ourselves, even give praise, to our killing others for a cause than to killing ourselves. I would say that there is an extremely understandable reason to be more circumspect about the latter, as suicide contagion is, as far as we can tell now, a real phenomenon, and suicides for imaginary or completely futile causes are beyond enduring; but then how many mentally ill people have been inspired to murder others by militaristic ideas (and, in many cases, actual military training/experience)? So it's hard to talk about, but important to think about, as a way of clarifying your ideas regarding justifiable violence.
posted by praemunire at 11:40 AM on February 27 [13 favorites]
This is a deeply selfish take, but I can't get the thought out of my head that I could really do with a lower amount of witnessing people dying live on camera in my life.
I feel this! I don't think it's a deeply selfish take unless one is saying "keep those people off my feed, I just want to live in my gated community".
The left has this whole really shitty "if you feel despair, what you need to do is ORGANIZE!!! Hope is a DISCPLINE!!!! You are vaguely BAD if you feel bad!!!!" line that I think is completely inadequate to the world in general and to the world in particular now. It would be incredibly, incredibly weird to see all this suffering and just frolic off to one's DSA meeting, or even to joyfully race off to picket Northrop Gruman.
It's not the most important piece here but all the just brutal, sadistic, totally avoidable stuff - homelessness, the death of Nex Benedict, the situation in Gaza - these are moral injuries to us as well. We're here seeing all this suffering and frankly we are virtually powerless to stop it, we just have to witness and witness and witness. Even if you're going to every protest and donating every dollar and locking down to things etc etc etc, you may have noticed that we are not stopping this stuff. The forces of evil are, let's be honest here, winning. Maybe they won't win in the medium or long term but things are pretty dark right now.
It's really wrong to force people to watch suffering that they want to stop but can't, it forces them to be callous or be traumatized. It's a form of psychological warfare, a way to make people sick with despair or utterly indifferent. It's a strategy. These regimes, these sadists perform cruelty for us in addition to following their own purposes.
~~
Honestly, okay, yes, you have to be in a not normal headspace to burn yourself to death, sure. But I think this puts pressure on the broad brush idea of mental illness - is a not normal headspace really always something that needs to be fixed? To what extent do we have a right to respond not-normally? Do we really want to speak up for a society where people who seem competent to make their own decisions are forced into a "normal" mold? I personally think that would make the world a lot worse on a number of vectors.
We do assume that there are times when you can't live with doing something - if you are forced under threat of death to do something really horrible to another, no one blames you for doing it but also no one would say that you were suicidal for refusing. To me, it feels like "It is morally unacceptable to me to go on with a normal life knowing what I know and therefore I'm going to kill myself in protest" is just an extreme form of the same thing. It's the individual who knows what they can tolerate and remain morally acceptable to themselves.
~~
I'm not sure that this type of thing is useless, unless everything is useless. The United States has to stop supporting the IDF. It's obvious that the end game here is the murder or expulsion of all Palestinians so that Gaza and the West Bank can be seized. Every other line is so much chaff - that's what is happening.
The United States is never going to stop until there's so much unrest and distress here that Biden has to stop to keep things stable. It is clear that this death made things less stable and quiet at home and made the atmosphere about Gaza seem more intense and terrible, and that is the only way, unless we have the people and the motive for a true general strike or guerilla movement, and if we didn't have it during Vietnam I'm not sure we'd have it now.
posted by Frowner at 11:42 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
I feel this! I don't think it's a deeply selfish take unless one is saying "keep those people off my feed, I just want to live in my gated community".
The left has this whole really shitty "if you feel despair, what you need to do is ORGANIZE!!! Hope is a DISCPLINE!!!! You are vaguely BAD if you feel bad!!!!" line that I think is completely inadequate to the world in general and to the world in particular now. It would be incredibly, incredibly weird to see all this suffering and just frolic off to one's DSA meeting, or even to joyfully race off to picket Northrop Gruman.
It's not the most important piece here but all the just brutal, sadistic, totally avoidable stuff - homelessness, the death of Nex Benedict, the situation in Gaza - these are moral injuries to us as well. We're here seeing all this suffering and frankly we are virtually powerless to stop it, we just have to witness and witness and witness. Even if you're going to every protest and donating every dollar and locking down to things etc etc etc, you may have noticed that we are not stopping this stuff. The forces of evil are, let's be honest here, winning. Maybe they won't win in the medium or long term but things are pretty dark right now.
It's really wrong to force people to watch suffering that they want to stop but can't, it forces them to be callous or be traumatized. It's a form of psychological warfare, a way to make people sick with despair or utterly indifferent. It's a strategy. These regimes, these sadists perform cruelty for us in addition to following their own purposes.
~~
Honestly, okay, yes, you have to be in a not normal headspace to burn yourself to death, sure. But I think this puts pressure on the broad brush idea of mental illness - is a not normal headspace really always something that needs to be fixed? To what extent do we have a right to respond not-normally? Do we really want to speak up for a society where people who seem competent to make their own decisions are forced into a "normal" mold? I personally think that would make the world a lot worse on a number of vectors.
We do assume that there are times when you can't live with doing something - if you are forced under threat of death to do something really horrible to another, no one blames you for doing it but also no one would say that you were suicidal for refusing. To me, it feels like "It is morally unacceptable to me to go on with a normal life knowing what I know and therefore I'm going to kill myself in protest" is just an extreme form of the same thing. It's the individual who knows what they can tolerate and remain morally acceptable to themselves.
~~
I'm not sure that this type of thing is useless, unless everything is useless. The United States has to stop supporting the IDF. It's obvious that the end game here is the murder or expulsion of all Palestinians so that Gaza and the West Bank can be seized. Every other line is so much chaff - that's what is happening.
The United States is never going to stop until there's so much unrest and distress here that Biden has to stop to keep things stable. It is clear that this death made things less stable and quiet at home and made the atmosphere about Gaza seem more intense and terrible, and that is the only way, unless we have the people and the motive for a true general strike or guerilla movement, and if we didn't have it during Vietnam I'm not sure we'd have it now.
posted by Frowner at 11:42 AM on February 27 [31 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. A few more have been flagged for similar reasons but not removed as they do respect the guidelines. Let's remember that this thread covers sensitive subjects so let's try to respond appropriately to people's investment and stakes with the topic top avoid the thread turning into a heated discussion. As usual, personal attack will be removed and deemed against the guidelines.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:43 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:43 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
Praemunire, sounds like you agree with me more than not. So why the nastiness?
I'm not sure I'd dismiss self immolation as sheer mental illness. Still, I would be curious what a mental health professional would advise, as it's still suicidal. And I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of such action. How many people are convinced that aren't already convinced? I'm willing to bet self immigration is widely viewed, and probably correctly, as a fringe action, at best.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:48 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I'd dismiss self immolation as sheer mental illness. Still, I would be curious what a mental health professional would advise, as it's still suicidal. And I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of such action. How many people are convinced that aren't already convinced? I'm willing to bet self immigration is widely viewed, and probably correctly, as a fringe action, at best.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:48 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
About 160 of these occurred in Tibet between 2011 and 2018
Which is why there were several fire extinguishers positioned around Tiananmen Square, at least when I was there; they may be gone now as Wikipedia says "Since Dec 15, 2021, visitors must make a reservation before entering the square area."
See also Walter Tevis' dystopian novel Mockingbird where certain future-people are so bummed out they self-immolate in public places like fast-food restaurants, as diners nearby just move away without doing anything, since it's just another irritant about city living.
posted by Rash at 11:51 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Which is why there were several fire extinguishers positioned around Tiananmen Square, at least when I was there; they may be gone now as Wikipedia says "Since Dec 15, 2021, visitors must make a reservation before entering the square area."
See also Walter Tevis' dystopian novel Mockingbird where certain future-people are so bummed out they self-immolate in public places like fast-food restaurants, as diners nearby just move away without doing anything, since it's just another irritant about city living.
posted by Rash at 11:51 AM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of such action. How many people are convinced that aren't already convinced?
I think the point is partially relying on the contagion of suicide. I don't like saying this, because god knows if more people start burning themselves alive on this one, it's likely going to start being people I know, but I think the point is that where one goes, others can follow.
There was an article posted on the Blue some years ago - I think it was talking about mass shootings, but I believe it still applies - that talked about how for every extreme action, each person has a limit of how many people they would need to see do it before they would consider doing it themselves. Aaron Bushnell sent information to the Atlanta anarchist press and was likely aware of the unsuccessful self-immolation in Atlanta; for him the number was "One". For others, the number may similarly be "one", or may be "Two." If others follow, then others still may also have their number be "Three" or "Five" or "Ten".
One self-immolation draws attention. I think if other people start burning themselves alive over this in America - especially people who cannot easily be mocked or dismissed - it could indeed rapidly become a crisis for Biden. I don't think it's the best move to end this, and I also have hope for the future and ways to help other people who need my help, so I'm not planning to burn myself alive over this anytime soon, but that doesn't mean the calculus on this isn't thought out and real.
posted by corb at 11:56 AM on February 27 [7 favorites]
I think the point is partially relying on the contagion of suicide. I don't like saying this, because god knows if more people start burning themselves alive on this one, it's likely going to start being people I know, but I think the point is that where one goes, others can follow.
There was an article posted on the Blue some years ago - I think it was talking about mass shootings, but I believe it still applies - that talked about how for every extreme action, each person has a limit of how many people they would need to see do it before they would consider doing it themselves. Aaron Bushnell sent information to the Atlanta anarchist press and was likely aware of the unsuccessful self-immolation in Atlanta; for him the number was "One". For others, the number may similarly be "one", or may be "Two." If others follow, then others still may also have their number be "Three" or "Five" or "Ten".
One self-immolation draws attention. I think if other people start burning themselves alive over this in America - especially people who cannot easily be mocked or dismissed - it could indeed rapidly become a crisis for Biden. I don't think it's the best move to end this, and I also have hope for the future and ways to help other people who need my help, so I'm not planning to burn myself alive over this anytime soon, but that doesn't mean the calculus on this isn't thought out and real.
posted by corb at 11:56 AM on February 27 [7 favorites]
I too would like to live in a world where people didn't have to self-immolate to protest their government's barbaric support of genocide, but that's not the world we live in
It's absolutely the world we live in. Bushnell didn't have to self-immolate to protest US complicity in Israel's apartheid that's now all grown up into full fledged genocide. He didn't.
I can respect the pain that drove him and the courage that he showed in making himself such a public sacrifice for his protest, but I don't believe for a second that taking "have to" away from the equation diminishes the profound meaning or desperate courage that underscores this form of protest. It actually kind of cheapens it, as though he didn't have agency here. As though he could do nothing else except to burn himself alive.
Bushnell felt he could no longer be complicit as a servicemember in US support for a genocidal regime, and he felt that the most effective means of defiance thereof was to set himself on fire. I honor his agency and his will. He did it because he chose to, because he felt that was the most impactful thing he could do. He didn't do it because he had to.
posted by tclark at 12:03 PM on February 27 [16 favorites]
It's absolutely the world we live in. Bushnell didn't have to self-immolate to protest US complicity in Israel's apartheid that's now all grown up into full fledged genocide. He didn't.
I can respect the pain that drove him and the courage that he showed in making himself such a public sacrifice for his protest, but I don't believe for a second that taking "have to" away from the equation diminishes the profound meaning or desperate courage that underscores this form of protest. It actually kind of cheapens it, as though he didn't have agency here. As though he could do nothing else except to burn himself alive.
Bushnell felt he could no longer be complicit as a servicemember in US support for a genocidal regime, and he felt that the most effective means of defiance thereof was to set himself on fire. I honor his agency and his will. He did it because he chose to, because he felt that was the most impactful thing he could do. He didn't do it because he had to.
posted by tclark at 12:03 PM on February 27 [16 favorites]
In their book Japan At War: An Oral History, the authors interviewed a surviving human torpedo pilot. (He survived because the engine failed after he was "deployed.")
One thing I recall is that, during training, the trainers spoke of "completing the mission" and avoided explicitly saying "blow yourself up." Everyone knew that "delivering the weapon to target" meant certain death, but they wouldn't let themselves think about it. They would discuss piloting the vehicle, best methods for disabling an enemy ship, and just elide the personal cost to themselves. It's a habit of thought that they deliberately developed. I imagine that everyone who straps on a suicide vest does the same thing: focus on the method and mission and look away from the personal outcome.
posted by SPrintF at 12:12 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
One thing I recall is that, during training, the trainers spoke of "completing the mission" and avoided explicitly saying "blow yourself up." Everyone knew that "delivering the weapon to target" meant certain death, but they wouldn't let themselves think about it. They would discuss piloting the vehicle, best methods for disabling an enemy ship, and just elide the personal cost to themselves. It's a habit of thought that they deliberately developed. I imagine that everyone who straps on a suicide vest does the same thing: focus on the method and mission and look away from the personal outcome.
posted by SPrintF at 12:12 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
From the FPP's link to 'Truth' comes the definition of a satyagrahi - one who uses the subtle force of Truth (and/or Love, another subtle force in the theory of satya graha as developed by Gandhi, who himself would begin fasting in protest. Hunger strikes are but a longer means to the same end).
However, in today's world, I claim this cultural belief as one that I learnt on one grandmother's knee, and while going on walks with the other grandfather. Both of whom learnt directly from Gandhi's teachings and talks in the 1930s. My given name is a reflection of my ancestral wisdom and lived experience, and is the ultimate manifestation of Truth force: political ethics and morality. Hence I honour those with the courage and conviction of their beliefs, just I do my own ancestors.
From the main FPP link:
Satyāgraha (Sanskrit: सत्याग्रह; satya: "truth", āgraha: "insistence" or "holding firmly to"), or "holding firmly to truth",[1] or "truth force", is a particular form of nonviolent resistance or civil resistance. Someone who practises satyagraha is a satyagrahi.The one of whom you speak today was a true satya grahi. To deny him this recognition is tantamount to injustice. If anyone represents insanity, it was the man who thought a gun would prevent the force of Truth from touching us all. As it has.
However, in today's world, I claim this cultural belief as one that I learnt on one grandmother's knee, and while going on walks with the other grandfather. Both of whom learnt directly from Gandhi's teachings and talks in the 1930s. My given name is a reflection of my ancestral wisdom and lived experience, and is the ultimate manifestation of Truth force: political ethics and morality. Hence I honour those with the courage and conviction of their beliefs, just I do my own ancestors.
From the main FPP link:
In a sense, the self-immolators embody Havel’s ideal of “living in the truth” even as one exists in a system of lies, fear, and hypocrisy. But this ideal comes at a price: in a ruthless and unforgiving totalitarian state, living in the truth guarantees one’s death.posted by infini at 12:20 PM on February 27 [15 favorites]
The self-immolator, then, expedites the inevitable and preempts the state, thereby denying the vengeful state the satisfaction of killing him. He chooses to die on his own terms–in the truth–rather than live a life of fear and lies as prescribed by the regime.
In other words, he demonstrates that even death itself is not violent compared to the choice of continuing to live.
I'm willing to bet self immigration is widely viewed, and probably correctly, as a fringe action, at best.
I'm very very good at self immigration.
posted by infini at 12:21 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
I'm very very good at self immigration.
posted by infini at 12:21 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
The saddest thing about the comment "If other people start" ... Someone already did in December: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/01/protester-palestine-self-immolate-atlanta-israel-consulate This isn't a sustainable tactic, let alone a strategy.
If everyone opposed to this war did it, who would be left but the warmongers. It's tragic and keeps news minutes off of the events unfolding themselves.
posted by nutate at 12:24 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
If everyone opposed to this war did it, who would be left but the warmongers. It's tragic and keeps news minutes off of the events unfolding themselves.
posted by nutate at 12:24 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
tactics do not need to be sustainable, there is no theory of political resistance that says 'in order for a tactic to work and be used effectively it must be possible for everyone to do it'. Also saying a tactic is not a strategy is not a critique.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on February 27 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on February 27 [12 favorites]
If immolating yourself is mentally ill, what do you call immolating hundreds of children day after day after day while eating ice-cream?
posted by nikodym at 12:28 PM on February 27 [30 favorites]
posted by nikodym at 12:28 PM on February 27 [30 favorites]
Much like rage as seen in the BLM protests, no one is coordinating self-immolation as a tactic. It doesn't need to be sustainable because there isn't a guiding force, it's a reaction to the Biden admin being completely shit on Gaza and there not being anything anyone can do. Food? The genociders are blocking or bombing the trucks. Political pressure? The dems are stuck in the past on this.
So there's just reaction.
Other reactions may play out over time, as mentioned up thread despair is heavy in the air in certain communities and groups.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:32 PM on February 27 [7 favorites]
So there's just reaction.
Other reactions may play out over time, as mentioned up thread despair is heavy in the air in certain communities and groups.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:32 PM on February 27 [7 favorites]
Satya graha does not require every one to immolate themselves on the pyre of injustice.
Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. Destruction is not the law of the humans. Man lives freely by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him. Every murder or other injury, no matter for what cause, committed or inflicted on another is a crime against humanity. ~ MK Gandhiposted by infini at 12:33 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
Fair enough. Probably the most familiar example will be Bobby Sands.
That was a hunger strike, not immolation. There's a very long and rich history of hunger strikes, with quite a few being at least partially effective. Part of why they work as often as they do is that they are slow and controllable -- people can start and stop them well before death, and it can go on and on for weeks and months. I don't pretend to know all the self-immolation protest history, but looking through the list on Wikipedia I'm not seeing a lot that were successful in terms of creating change. Creating attention, sometimes yes, but not change.
Personally, I find a lot of the laudatory language in some comments above disturbing, but clearly this act speaks to some people including some people here. All I can hope is that no one feels inspired to follow that example.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:56 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
That was a hunger strike, not immolation. There's a very long and rich history of hunger strikes, with quite a few being at least partially effective. Part of why they work as often as they do is that they are slow and controllable -- people can start and stop them well before death, and it can go on and on for weeks and months. I don't pretend to know all the self-immolation protest history, but looking through the list on Wikipedia I'm not seeing a lot that were successful in terms of creating change. Creating attention, sometimes yes, but not change.
Personally, I find a lot of the laudatory language in some comments above disturbing, but clearly this act speaks to some people including some people here. All I can hope is that no one feels inspired to follow that example.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:56 PM on February 27 [8 favorites]
Creating attention, sometimes yes, but not change.
Tell me you know nothing about political resistance without telling me you know nothing about political resistance.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:02 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
Tell me you know nothing about political resistance without telling me you know nothing about political resistance.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:02 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
I was raised in a church that had a powerful focus on the veneration of martyrs, and my parents postponed their wedding in response to the news that MLK had been assassinated. The difficult parts of my childhood revolved around being berated for being insufficiently selfless, in contrast to the Righteous who Gave Their Lives. This stuff burrowed deep in my psyche.
I have never described myself as "suicidal", but I have carried a death wish. I have found the world to be too broken, and my life too small to change its direction. Naturally my upbringing trained me to question "What could my death do to help?" I used to daydream about taking bullets to save innocent people, and I read stories of the dangerous jobs done by conscientious objectors. Could I drag wounded people to battlefield hospitals, or parachute into forest fires to put them out? Nothing available seemed worthy enough, and so I went on living.
It's a dark place, but one that has less of a gravitational pull the older I get. I know I would be missed for who I am as a living person, and I regret letting this prevent me from being "selfish" about living my life the way my heart desired. I also feel grateful for the mistakes I avoided due to this fastidious obsession. But I know from experience that the impulse to do something like this can originally come from outside, but also be inside you so deeply that it defines your identity.
It is pitiable, noble, tragic, inspiring, and regrettable all at once. You can't disassemble an act like this into parts and inspect each one under a microscope. It's the end of a life. It is made of that entire life.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:15 PM on February 27 [31 favorites]
I have never described myself as "suicidal", but I have carried a death wish. I have found the world to be too broken, and my life too small to change its direction. Naturally my upbringing trained me to question "What could my death do to help?" I used to daydream about taking bullets to save innocent people, and I read stories of the dangerous jobs done by conscientious objectors. Could I drag wounded people to battlefield hospitals, or parachute into forest fires to put them out? Nothing available seemed worthy enough, and so I went on living.
It's a dark place, but one that has less of a gravitational pull the older I get. I know I would be missed for who I am as a living person, and I regret letting this prevent me from being "selfish" about living my life the way my heart desired. I also feel grateful for the mistakes I avoided due to this fastidious obsession. But I know from experience that the impulse to do something like this can originally come from outside, but also be inside you so deeply that it defines your identity.
It is pitiable, noble, tragic, inspiring, and regrettable all at once. You can't disassemble an act like this into parts and inspect each one under a microscope. It's the end of a life. It is made of that entire life.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:15 PM on February 27 [31 favorites]
I think it's tragic and said that people choose to end their lives in such a horrific and painful way when it's unlikely or uncertain that their sacrifice will accomplish anything. I appreciate their commitment and courage. Thích Quảng Đức's composure was astonishing, and his monument is very impressive.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:19 PM on February 27
posted by kirkaracha at 1:19 PM on February 27
That was a hunger strike, not immolation. There's a very long and rich history of hunger strikes, with quite a few being at least partially effective. Part of why they work as often as they do is that they are slow and controllable -- people can start and stop them well before death, and it can go on and on for weeks and months.
The other reason hunger strikes are effective is that when a government holds someone prisoner, they are responsible for that person and if the person dies in custody, the government bears responsibility for that death. A prisoner engaging in a hunger strike is telling the world that they are being held under conditions that they consider worse than death.
posted by straight at 1:25 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
The other reason hunger strikes are effective is that when a government holds someone prisoner, they are responsible for that person and if the person dies in custody, the government bears responsibility for that death. A prisoner engaging in a hunger strike is telling the world that they are being held under conditions that they consider worse than death.
posted by straight at 1:25 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
I too would like to live in a world where people didn't have to self-immolate to protest their government's barbaric support of genocide, but that's not the world we live in
I could eat an ice cream bar to draw attention to the plight of Gaza, but it wouldn't work. I would be forced to try something else instead.
I would like self-immolation to be one of the things that just as obviously does not work, so that people tempted to try it would be forced to try something else instead.
posted by straight at 1:34 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I could eat an ice cream bar to draw attention to the plight of Gaza, but it wouldn't work. I would be forced to try something else instead.
I would like self-immolation to be one of the things that just as obviously does not work, so that people tempted to try it would be forced to try something else instead.
posted by straight at 1:34 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I would like self-immolation to be one of the things that just as obviously does not work, so that people tempted to try it would be forced to try something else instead.
It's not enough for there to be things which don't work; there has to be things that do work. And the challenge to that is there's a lot of people that don't want there to be things that work, in this & other instances.
Otherwise... we get to "things which inarguably 'work', for horrific values of 'work', but which we *really* don't want people to have to resort to".
posted by CrystalDave at 1:40 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
It's not enough for there to be things which don't work; there has to be things that do work. And the challenge to that is there's a lot of people that don't want there to be things that work, in this & other instances.
Otherwise... we get to "things which inarguably 'work', for horrific values of 'work', but which we *really* don't want people to have to resort to".
posted by CrystalDave at 1:40 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
Tell me you know nothing about political resistance without telling me you know nothing about political resistance.
I've read plenty of your comments and you are smarter than this. Attention, a.k.a. "raising awareness," is not the same as creating change despite how often people conflate them.
If immolation is effective at creating change, there should be plenty of examples to point to, like there are with hunger strikes. There aren't many, because it is typically not effective.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I've read plenty of your comments and you are smarter than this. Attention, a.k.a. "raising awareness," is not the same as creating change despite how often people conflate them.
If immolation is effective at creating change, there should be plenty of examples to point to, like there are with hunger strikes. There aren't many, because it is typically not effective.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
It is pitiable, noble, tragic, inspiring, and regrettable all at once. You can't disassemble an act like this into parts and inspect each one under a microscope. It's the end of a life. It is made of that entire life.
thank you
posted by elkevelvet at 1:49 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
thank you
posted by elkevelvet at 1:49 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
Pawing through Durkheim' Suicide, none of the 4 main tenets work then again, it's Durkheim. Seppuku is not even a factor for comparative reasoning to commit an act of self- immolation. Thich Quang Duc. Kennedy was right. to cover topic of this nature it would be remiss not to include this individual. the combination of political social cultural events culminates to a monks self-immolation, it's 1963, June. A conscious action taken for primarily political reasons, by a religious man that had cultural consequences. The protest against the repression of the Buddhist community in Vietnam by Diem,who, after leaving Michigan State university,, became a useful ally for United States. his brother was Catholic bishop.
That all changed rapidly.. That summer, larger protests against Diem shifted with the death of Thicih Quang Duc. The Diem brothers were dead 6 months later by assassination, Kennedy, 20 days later.
1963.
Alice Herz.
"Herz set fire to herself on a street in Detroit on March 16, 1965, at the age of 82.A motorist and his two sons were driving by and saw her burning and put out the flames. She died of her injuries ten days later. According to Taylor Branch's At Canaan's Edge (2006), it was President Johnson's address to Congress in support of a Voting Rights Act that led her to believe the moment was propitious to protest the Vietnam War."
Norman Morrison. "On November 2, 1965, Morrison doused himself in kerosene and set himself on fire below the office of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara at the Pentagon to protest United States involvement in the Vietnam War."
Roger Allen LaPorte
"Before joining the Catholic Workers, he had attended a seminary in Vermont and hoped to become a monk... in front of the Dag Hammarskjold Library at the United Nations in New York, LaPorte composed himself in the position of the Buddhist monks of Vietnam, doused himself with gasoline, and set himself alight. He died the next day at Bellevue Hospital from second- and third-degree burns covering 95 percent of his body."
causality is difficult in assessment of ones intended last act as protest where retrospect seems to have no place.
posted by clavdivs at 2:10 PM on February 27
That all changed rapidly.. That summer, larger protests against Diem shifted with the death of Thicih Quang Duc. The Diem brothers were dead 6 months later by assassination, Kennedy, 20 days later.
1963.
Alice Herz.
"Herz set fire to herself on a street in Detroit on March 16, 1965, at the age of 82.A motorist and his two sons were driving by and saw her burning and put out the flames. She died of her injuries ten days later. According to Taylor Branch's At Canaan's Edge (2006), it was President Johnson's address to Congress in support of a Voting Rights Act that led her to believe the moment was propitious to protest the Vietnam War."
Norman Morrison. "On November 2, 1965, Morrison doused himself in kerosene and set himself on fire below the office of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara at the Pentagon to protest United States involvement in the Vietnam War."
Roger Allen LaPorte
"Before joining the Catholic Workers, he had attended a seminary in Vermont and hoped to become a monk... in front of the Dag Hammarskjold Library at the United Nations in New York, LaPorte composed himself in the position of the Buddhist monks of Vietnam, doused himself with gasoline, and set himself alight. He died the next day at Bellevue Hospital from second- and third-degree burns covering 95 percent of his body."
causality is difficult in assessment of ones intended last act as protest where retrospect seems to have no place.
posted by clavdivs at 2:10 PM on February 27
If immolation is effective at creating change, there should be plenty of examples to point to, like there are with hunger strikes. There aren't many, because it is typically not effective.
Again, I really don't want people to continue doing this, but I think this isn't quite true. It's rather that self-immolation has largely created change in a different mechanism than hunger strikes.
Self-immolation, when successful, has tended to create an indelible impression of the sense of urgency on the part of people who are watching that has moved them to other more extreme actions - a radicalizing event, if you will. See, from the posts above, that the self-immolation of Norman Morrison is said to have galvanized Daniel Ellsberg to be willing to take actions outside of his expected norms: that action wound up creating the publishing of the Pentagon Papers. The publishing of the Pentagon Papers wound up pissing off Nixon so much that The Plumbers - and Watergate - was created, which led to the downfall of Nixon's presidency and the focus in 1973 on Watergate instead of his wishes to continue escalating in Vietnam: thus, it can certainly be argued that the self-immolation of Norman Morrison destroyed the presidency of Richard Nixon and led to the end of the Vietnam War.
The self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi catalyzed the Tunisian Revolution and the Arab Spring.
I don't think we can say it is not an effective tactic. I think it is a chaotic tactic, which is sometimes effective and sometimes not effective. I would prefer people not to use this tactic. But that doesn't mean that it is not sometimes extremely effective.
posted by corb at 2:42 PM on February 27 [28 favorites]
Again, I really don't want people to continue doing this, but I think this isn't quite true. It's rather that self-immolation has largely created change in a different mechanism than hunger strikes.
Self-immolation, when successful, has tended to create an indelible impression of the sense of urgency on the part of people who are watching that has moved them to other more extreme actions - a radicalizing event, if you will. See, from the posts above, that the self-immolation of Norman Morrison is said to have galvanized Daniel Ellsberg to be willing to take actions outside of his expected norms: that action wound up creating the publishing of the Pentagon Papers. The publishing of the Pentagon Papers wound up pissing off Nixon so much that The Plumbers - and Watergate - was created, which led to the downfall of Nixon's presidency and the focus in 1973 on Watergate instead of his wishes to continue escalating in Vietnam: thus, it can certainly be argued that the self-immolation of Norman Morrison destroyed the presidency of Richard Nixon and led to the end of the Vietnam War.
The self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi catalyzed the Tunisian Revolution and the Arab Spring.
I don't think we can say it is not an effective tactic. I think it is a chaotic tactic, which is sometimes effective and sometimes not effective. I would prefer people not to use this tactic. But that doesn't mean that it is not sometimes extremely effective.
posted by corb at 2:42 PM on February 27 [28 favorites]
This is the first time I've heard of catalysis framed as a mental illness, hence my digging deeper into the philosophy underpinning these harrowing tactics.
posted by infini at 3:22 PM on February 27
posted by infini at 3:22 PM on February 27
Most acts of political resistance are ‘typically not effective’.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:28 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:28 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
If immolation is effective at creating change, there should be plenty of examples to point to, like there are with hunger strikes. There aren't many, because it is typically not effective.
Ah, lack of utility. The only reason why people are reluctant to set themselves on fire.
posted by figurant at 3:30 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
Ah, lack of utility. The only reason why people are reluctant to set themselves on fire.
posted by figurant at 3:30 PM on February 27 [13 favorites]
If there's one thing I hope people walk away from this thread with, it's the strong idea that it's bad to set yourself on fire.
I'm not saying no one should ever do it. Suppose you've been doused with gasoline by some malevolent figure -- the Predator from the movie Predator, a crazed velociraptor that has learned about fire, Anthony Kiedis -- and that figure is locked in mortal combat with you, a battle that for whatever reason you cannot win (I could take Anthony Kiedis), and rather than simply die you elect to set both yourself and this monster ablaze by striking a match. I get it.
Generally, you cannot beat someone else by hurting yourself; and even if you could, would it be worth it? I mean...maybe it would, if your self-immolation could really bring peace to the Middle East. But big spoiler alert: it absolutely fucking can't. You have broken the hearts of your friends and family, traumatized a shitload of people, created a huge fucking mess someone else will have to clean up, and that is it. You're not a hero, you're just a guy who ruined a bunch of people's day.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:27 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying no one should ever do it. Suppose you've been doused with gasoline by some malevolent figure -- the Predator from the movie Predator, a crazed velociraptor that has learned about fire, Anthony Kiedis -- and that figure is locked in mortal combat with you, a battle that for whatever reason you cannot win (I could take Anthony Kiedis), and rather than simply die you elect to set both yourself and this monster ablaze by striking a match. I get it.
Generally, you cannot beat someone else by hurting yourself; and even if you could, would it be worth it? I mean...maybe it would, if your self-immolation could really bring peace to the Middle East. But big spoiler alert: it absolutely fucking can't. You have broken the hearts of your friends and family, traumatized a shitload of people, created a huge fucking mess someone else will have to clean up, and that is it. You're not a hero, you're just a guy who ruined a bunch of people's day.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:27 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I think you've made your disdain clear.
posted by sagc at 4:29 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:29 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
Self immolation is also useful for the response it generates in people. It’s now very easy to see who is an absolute ghoul
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:31 PM on February 27 [11 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:31 PM on February 27 [11 favorites]
It’s now very easy to see who is an absolute ghoul
Indeed. Though for some here, it's evidence beyond any imaginable burden of proof.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:57 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Indeed. Though for some here, it's evidence beyond any imaginable burden of proof.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:57 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
Did a bunch of “i think im super clever” edgelords get lost here on their way to Reddit?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:59 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:59 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
I'll drop out after this, but I'm honestly extremely horrified by people calling this person a hero, or describing him as brave, because I think that only encourages troubled people to make bad choices. It needs to be made very clear that once you end your life, you don't own what that means to people. Your grand statement may be a punchline to somebody else. The people who abused you in life will gleefully abuse you in death. It is not a solution, and it is not something that should be celebrated, at all. I'm furious to read rhetoric about what a noble soul this poor person was for doing this incredibly stupid thing to himself. This person needed help. This is sad.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:09 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:09 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
It looks like my earlier suspicions were correct that he was an intelligence airman. Per NPR, Bushnell was assigned to the 70th Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Wing; I wouldn't be surprised if he was asked to do intelligence that may have been being shared with Israel.
posted by corb at 5:29 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:29 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
“Aaron Bushnell Died for Palestine,” Kelly Hayes, Organizing My Thoughts, 27 February 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 5:31 PM on February 27 [5 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:31 PM on February 27 [5 favorites]
Self immolation is also useful for the response it generates in people. It’s now very easy to see who is an absolute ghoul
This is an honest question because I'm not following your comments. Are you saying that people are ghouls and edgelords for not finding this to be a laudatory event? Or something else entirely?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
This is an honest question because I'm not following your comments. Are you saying that people are ghouls and edgelords for not finding this to be a laudatory event? Or something else entirely?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
To let this "poor" and "stupid," person speak for himself:
"compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it’s not extreme at all."
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:44 PM on February 27 [14 favorites]
"compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it’s not extreme at all."
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:44 PM on February 27 [14 favorites]
Are you saying that people are ghouls and edgelords for not finding this to be a laudatory event?
This is not an honest question.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:45 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
This is not an honest question.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:45 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
I think the best comment i've seen on this is from Christa Peterson on Twitter:
Not everything is an apt subject for being personally pro or con, I think the right stance to take toward an active duty US airman having burned himself alive to stop being complicit in genocide is just sitting with the gravity of itposted by adrienneleigh at 5:50 PM on February 27 [37 favorites]
I'll drop out after this, but I'm honestly extremely horrified by people calling this person a hero, or describing him as brave, because I think that only encourages troubled people to make bad choices.
Maybe it is because I am myself one of those troubled people, but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't something in me that strongly resonated with this choice. I have found my pacifism sorely tried these last few years, and I have wrestled with finding the right response to the evil we are confronted by. I don't know if this act will have any good consequences in the world, or whether it is at all reconcilable with my religious beliefs. But if it seems, in certain lights, brave or heroic to me, it is not because I don't value the life lost, or see it as an acceptable means to an end. It is because this person offered an answer to the question that haunts a lot of us. I don't know if it was the right answer, but it sure as hell was one.
The very fact we are weighing the morality of Bushnell destroying his own life, when as a country we have been so willing to shrug our shoulders in response to the militaries of the west burning others alive says something about the inconsistent value we place on human life as a society. It makes me hope that if nothing else, the horror of this might bring the reality of what has been done to people in our names home to some Americans and Israelis. To quote the man himself, "This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal."
Would it have been better if he took up arms and attacked the people responsible for the violence? That is an almost certain route to the grave as well. Would taking some of the enforcers or architects of genocide with him have been more or less meaningful? These are not questions I am asking for rhetorical effect. I don't know. I can only pray that God helps us all do what is truly good for one another.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:50 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
Maybe it is because I am myself one of those troubled people, but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't something in me that strongly resonated with this choice. I have found my pacifism sorely tried these last few years, and I have wrestled with finding the right response to the evil we are confronted by. I don't know if this act will have any good consequences in the world, or whether it is at all reconcilable with my religious beliefs. But if it seems, in certain lights, brave or heroic to me, it is not because I don't value the life lost, or see it as an acceptable means to an end. It is because this person offered an answer to the question that haunts a lot of us. I don't know if it was the right answer, but it sure as hell was one.
The very fact we are weighing the morality of Bushnell destroying his own life, when as a country we have been so willing to shrug our shoulders in response to the militaries of the west burning others alive says something about the inconsistent value we place on human life as a society. It makes me hope that if nothing else, the horror of this might bring the reality of what has been done to people in our names home to some Americans and Israelis. To quote the man himself, "This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal."
Would it have been better if he took up arms and attacked the people responsible for the violence? That is an almost certain route to the grave as well. Would taking some of the enforcers or architects of genocide with him have been more or less meaningful? These are not questions I am asking for rhetorical effect. I don't know. I can only pray that God helps us all do what is truly good for one another.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:50 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
Not everything is an apt subject for being personally pro or con, I think the right stance to take toward an active duty US airman having burned himself alive to stop being complicit in genocide is just sitting with the gravity of it
Re-reading this is how I am dealing with people who are dismissing him as mentally ill or otherwise need to excuse or laud the genocide he protested. Thank you for posting this.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:10 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
Re-reading this is how I am dealing with people who are dismissing him as mentally ill or otherwise need to excuse or laud the genocide he protested. Thank you for posting this.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:10 PM on February 27 [10 favorites]
From my soul, I want everyone and anyone who thinks what this man did made sense to let into your heart the cynicism that will keep you alive. The man who set himself on fire in 1963 did not end a war. Thirty years later, a photograph of that man burning himself alive was repurposed as an album cover for a politically progressive rap band. That band is now in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and their vocalist recently put on the market his home, a luxurious mansion valued at $1.65 million. So what I'm saying is please just think about this shit, any idea that would lead you to end your life in its service, it's a sucker's game, always.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:11 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:11 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
his is an honest question because I'm not following your comments. Are you saying that people are ghouls and edgelords for not finding this to be a laudatory event? Or something else entirely
The comment above mine joked about raptors discovering fire and Anthony keidis
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:18 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
The comment above mine joked about raptors discovering fire and Anthony keidis
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:18 PM on February 27 [6 favorites]
From my soul, I want everyone and anyone who thinks what this man did made sense to let into your heart the cynicism that will keep you alive.
Please stop making this thread about yourself.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:22 PM on February 27 [19 favorites]
Please stop making this thread about yourself.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:22 PM on February 27 [19 favorites]
Okay, I'll let you guys get back to it. Enjoy the whole, whatever this is
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:34 PM on February 27
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:34 PM on February 27
I don't think anyone is or should be enjoying this.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:00 PM on February 27 [7 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:00 PM on February 27 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please refrain from commenting if you are not contributing anything in good faith.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:09 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:09 PM on February 27 [4 favorites]
From this thread by Carwil Bjork-James, I'm reading this paper: Micromobilization and Suicide Protest in South Korea, 1970-2004. For this conversation, it's worth sharing something he highlighted: The target audience of protest suicides is often not those in power, but allies insufficiently engaged in collective action. It serves as a message about urgency and commitment.
From the paper itself:
The central contention of this paper is that suicide protest, at least in South Korea, was used to galvanize collective action by mobilizing the "hearts and minds" of the target audience. Suicide protesters seem to have willingly and voluntarily sacrificed their lives in an effort to spawn and invigorate movement activism among half-hearted activists and apathetic bystanders and instigate further protest activities by engaging in "consensus mobilization" and "action mobilization." In other words, suicide protest seems to have been used as a means for emphatically articulating the reasons why the current situations call for action (injustice framing) and why the unjust and immoral situations persist (diagnosis framing). It was also a desperate call for action by its target audience (motivational framing). (it further cites other studies that looked into that factor)
Fwiw, the Arab world socmed I've seen have been as galvanised (and humbled) by his actions, I'm hearing Yemenis will be carrying his portrait in their Friday March. Where I am, where I've been tearing up is reading the various prayers on his behalf - it is certainly less complicated, the reception to his act. The act is too grave and if you don't come from a communal pov it can look meaningless, but being communal isn't to be following a trend of doing the exact same act but to be together for something. That's why I think if there are splits in the reaction it comes down to that.
In any case, the area where he self-immolated has been turned into a site of vigil and protest (not sure about today, certainly yesterday). Today there's one at Times Square
posted by cendawanita at 8:26 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
From the paper itself:
The central contention of this paper is that suicide protest, at least in South Korea, was used to galvanize collective action by mobilizing the "hearts and minds" of the target audience. Suicide protesters seem to have willingly and voluntarily sacrificed their lives in an effort to spawn and invigorate movement activism among half-hearted activists and apathetic bystanders and instigate further protest activities by engaging in "consensus mobilization" and "action mobilization." In other words, suicide protest seems to have been used as a means for emphatically articulating the reasons why the current situations call for action (injustice framing) and why the unjust and immoral situations persist (diagnosis framing). It was also a desperate call for action by its target audience (motivational framing). (it further cites other studies that looked into that factor)
Fwiw, the Arab world socmed I've seen have been as galvanised (and humbled) by his actions, I'm hearing Yemenis will be carrying his portrait in their Friday March. Where I am, where I've been tearing up is reading the various prayers on his behalf - it is certainly less complicated, the reception to his act. The act is too grave and if you don't come from a communal pov it can look meaningless, but being communal isn't to be following a trend of doing the exact same act but to be together for something. That's why I think if there are splits in the reaction it comes down to that.
In any case, the area where he self-immolated has been turned into a site of vigil and protest (not sure about today, certainly yesterday). Today there's one at Times Square
posted by cendawanita at 8:26 PM on February 27 [20 favorites]
Suicide is a human right. It's one of the few rights that can't be taken away, except under extreme duress. I don't think troubled people are all that influenced by other people's suicide, honestly. Or if we are, there's a long history of societal failure that got us to that point. And absolutely fuck the argument that it causes other people pain. That's a huge, unearned assumption, unless the argument is that uncomfortable things make me uncomfortable, so I don't want to see them.
Horrors become meaningless. Eddie Izzard has a routine about killing a few people, very bad. But do it in bulk, and it kinda becomes... Ok. In the too big to handle kinda way. And people can protest the futility of suicide all they want... But that never changes the underlying failure of the world around them to make suicide not a good option. The night truly is dark and full of terrors. A lot of suicides become statistics, just another drop in an uncaring world. I for one think that if someone is really going to end their everything, it's better to do it for a cause.
Some of us fight the only way we know how, or the only way we have left.
posted by Jacen at 10:19 PM on February 27 [11 favorites]
Horrors become meaningless. Eddie Izzard has a routine about killing a few people, very bad. But do it in bulk, and it kinda becomes... Ok. In the too big to handle kinda way. And people can protest the futility of suicide all they want... But that never changes the underlying failure of the world around them to make suicide not a good option. The night truly is dark and full of terrors. A lot of suicides become statistics, just another drop in an uncaring world. I for one think that if someone is really going to end their everything, it's better to do it for a cause.
Some of us fight the only way we know how, or the only way we have left.
posted by Jacen at 10:19 PM on February 27 [11 favorites]
Can't believe this quote was not yet posted:
Rest in peace Aaron, may your memory be a blessing!
posted by kmt at 11:30 PM on February 27 [18 favorites]
'The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins.'When you see comments like this from the arab world:
By God, his shoelaces are greater than those of the Arab rulers.and don't tear up a little, or don't see the significance of his actions, then ... I really don't know what to say.
Rest in peace Aaron, may your memory be a blessing!
posted by kmt at 11:30 PM on February 27 [18 favorites]
I was thinking this morning about the last time I considered the violent, brutal death of a member of a Western military to be heroic, that is, to be in service of democracy, equality and peace.
I'd rather he was alive. But I hope I'd see myself as better dead than complicit in genocide.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:50 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
I'd rather he was alive. But I hope I'd see myself as better dead than complicit in genocide.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:50 PM on February 27 [9 favorites]
This was reposted on twitter by someone I knew in the mid-2000s. He's not validating it one way or the other, but he feels that it's worth noting. When I knew this person - and we hung out from time to time - he had a very good nose. I've been struck, since we lost touch, by things that he mentioned that I thought were just sort of political gossip and froth actually turning out to be true. I mention that I knew this person not to be cool or whatever but to say that while he might post something that turned out to be wrong, he's not just throwing whatever conspiracy stuff he hears up there.
There's some background chatter that at least some US troops are involved covertly in Gaza, in short, and not just in desk jobs either, and that information relating to this became known to Bushnell.
posted by Frowner at 1:37 AM on February 28 [10 favorites]
There's some background chatter that at least some US troops are involved covertly in Gaza, in short, and not just in desk jobs either, and that information relating to this became known to Bushnell.
posted by Frowner at 1:37 AM on February 28 [10 favorites]
I have slept on these thoughts and after two cups of coffee this morning, I still do want to say them out loud, in writing, here, on hte blue.
It is at once ironic, and devastatingly impactful, that the human being who felt disempowered and voiceless enough in the face of massive injustice was not only a legitimate member of the violent system+structure they were protesting, but also a stereotypical representative of the oppressor class - a white man.
This is what creates fear and discomfort and therefore must be silenced or erased from discourse.
"A lone wolf, with mental health issues, insane" etc. These talking points are well interspersed among the commentary in this FPP's thread and do not require further explication. Unless you, the reader, require it in order to comprehend the magnitude of the impact this political action has had and will have and is continuing to have on those who will never represent anything Other than the oppressed and marginalized and vulnerable due to the karmic circumstance of their skin colour and gender assigned at birth.
Our thread is but a reflection of the struggle over narrative and immediate move to suppress any perception that this human being stood up, in an environment designed to suppress the individual's own moral capacity for evaluating action as it conditions unquestioning obedience to higher authority. He stood up. And he took action. He took non-violent action. Yet, they call him the same names that they call those who stand up and use their ARs to kill 20 or 30 human being indiscriminately. The lone wolf, the mental health issues.
The irony is that the oppressed recognize the immensity and power of his action, and recognize the exponential increase in the power of his action due to his ethnicity and presented gender. A white man gave up his life for brown babies. And not just any old random white man but a cog in the warfighting machine.
He knew if he spoke up in any other way, they'd do to him what they did to Chelsea. All of this fits Gandhi's theory of satyagraha, from which I cite a few bulletpoints to situate my argument:
1. A force behind the status quo sustains the status quo, and will be deployed to defend the status quo.
2. Those who want to alter, dismantle or replace the status quo will have to depend on some countervailing force to resist the onslaught of the status quo, to overcome it, and to provide the basis on which a new order could be established and sustained.
3. Any conflict therefore boils down to a confrontation or combative engagement of these forces.
The parity or superiority of these forces does not depend solely on the degree of one kind of force, but also on the ability to deploy other forms of force in a commensurate and requisite degree.
4. If one succeeds in overcoming the force used in defence of the status quo, but does not succeed in transforming the beliefs on which the status quo is based and that uphold the status quo, the duration of the resultant victory will have to depend on ensuring the continuing superiority of the physical force at the command of the protesters. This leads to an endless dependence on force, an endless competition in accumulating and deploying destructive power. The results of a revolution cannot endure unless there is a change in beliefs, opinions and values, or a reconciliation of views that is sealed by consent.
5. The test of victory is the transformation of the mentality sustaining the status quo.
6. The force used should, therefore, be one that leads to a transformation of hearts and minds.
Annihilation of the adversary or a reign of terror cannot achieve this transformation.
7. The force that one uses must be one that promotes introspection, that leads to a change of mind.
8. The attempt to transform is based on a belief in the distinction between evil and the evil-doer.
The attempt to transform the mind or institutions cannot afford to ignore the law of cause and effect, and therefore the relation between ends and means.
[...]
9.In spite of all these efforts on one’s part, one may not be able to dissolve intransigence on the other side. Such a situation where all efforts of persuasion seem to have failed would demand Direct Action.
10. Direct Action is the deployment of some kind of force.
11. The nonviolent Direct Action of Satyagraha is different from that of Passive Resistance. It is active, intense and can be fierce.
12. At that point the superiority of the force that the Satyagrahi can command becomes very important.
13. The force available to humankind is not merely physical force that it shares with the animal, nor even the augmented force that it can muster because of its intellect – by way of arms and weapons, but it includes the force of the mind and spiritual force that touches the heart and conscience.
I am deeply sorry it "ruined your day"... however, it ignited hope in hearts of millions around the world. Men of honor and courage do indeed exist behind those screens and those automated robot machines.
posted by infini at 2:15 AM on February 28 [19 favorites]
It is at once ironic, and devastatingly impactful, that the human being who felt disempowered and voiceless enough in the face of massive injustice was not only a legitimate member of the violent system+structure they were protesting, but also a stereotypical representative of the oppressor class - a white man.
This is what creates fear and discomfort and therefore must be silenced or erased from discourse.
"A lone wolf, with mental health issues, insane" etc. These talking points are well interspersed among the commentary in this FPP's thread and do not require further explication. Unless you, the reader, require it in order to comprehend the magnitude of the impact this political action has had and will have and is continuing to have on those who will never represent anything Other than the oppressed and marginalized and vulnerable due to the karmic circumstance of their skin colour and gender assigned at birth.
Our thread is but a reflection of the struggle over narrative and immediate move to suppress any perception that this human being stood up, in an environment designed to suppress the individual's own moral capacity for evaluating action as it conditions unquestioning obedience to higher authority. He stood up. And he took action. He took non-violent action. Yet, they call him the same names that they call those who stand up and use their ARs to kill 20 or 30 human being indiscriminately. The lone wolf, the mental health issues.
The irony is that the oppressed recognize the immensity and power of his action, and recognize the exponential increase in the power of his action due to his ethnicity and presented gender. A white man gave up his life for brown babies. And not just any old random white man but a cog in the warfighting machine.
He knew if he spoke up in any other way, they'd do to him what they did to Chelsea. All of this fits Gandhi's theory of satyagraha, from which I cite a few bulletpoints to situate my argument:
1. A force behind the status quo sustains the status quo, and will be deployed to defend the status quo.
2. Those who want to alter, dismantle or replace the status quo will have to depend on some countervailing force to resist the onslaught of the status quo, to overcome it, and to provide the basis on which a new order could be established and sustained.
3. Any conflict therefore boils down to a confrontation or combative engagement of these forces.
The parity or superiority of these forces does not depend solely on the degree of one kind of force, but also on the ability to deploy other forms of force in a commensurate and requisite degree.
4. If one succeeds in overcoming the force used in defence of the status quo, but does not succeed in transforming the beliefs on which the status quo is based and that uphold the status quo, the duration of the resultant victory will have to depend on ensuring the continuing superiority of the physical force at the command of the protesters. This leads to an endless dependence on force, an endless competition in accumulating and deploying destructive power. The results of a revolution cannot endure unless there is a change in beliefs, opinions and values, or a reconciliation of views that is sealed by consent.
5. The test of victory is the transformation of the mentality sustaining the status quo.
6. The force used should, therefore, be one that leads to a transformation of hearts and minds.
Annihilation of the adversary or a reign of terror cannot achieve this transformation.
7. The force that one uses must be one that promotes introspection, that leads to a change of mind.
8. The attempt to transform is based on a belief in the distinction between evil and the evil-doer.
The attempt to transform the mind or institutions cannot afford to ignore the law of cause and effect, and therefore the relation between ends and means.
[...]
9.In spite of all these efforts on one’s part, one may not be able to dissolve intransigence on the other side. Such a situation where all efforts of persuasion seem to have failed would demand Direct Action.
10. Direct Action is the deployment of some kind of force.
11. The nonviolent Direct Action of Satyagraha is different from that of Passive Resistance. It is active, intense and can be fierce.
12. At that point the superiority of the force that the Satyagrahi can command becomes very important.
13. The force available to humankind is not merely physical force that it shares with the animal, nor even the augmented force that it can muster because of its intellect – by way of arms and weapons, but it includes the force of the mind and spiritual force that touches the heart and conscience.
I am deeply sorry it "ruined your day"... however, it ignited hope in hearts of millions around the world. Men of honor and courage do indeed exist behind those screens and those automated robot machines.
posted by infini at 2:15 AM on February 28 [19 favorites]
There's some background chatter that at least some US troops are involved covertly in Gaza, in short, and not just in desk jobs either, and that information relating to this became known to Bushnell.
Given that there have been US citizens among the hostages, I would be beyond shocked if the US didn't have at a minimum a small number of special forces or CIA paramilitary types embedded with the IDF tagging along on "high-value target" and information collection missions. Probably there are also some from the major European countries with hostages (France, Germany). I could be wrong and maybe they are all sitting at desks in Tel Aviv, but my money is that you are correct that there is some level of active involvement.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
Given that there have been US citizens among the hostages, I would be beyond shocked if the US didn't have at a minimum a small number of special forces or CIA paramilitary types embedded with the IDF tagging along on "high-value target" and information collection missions. Probably there are also some from the major European countries with hostages (France, Germany). I could be wrong and maybe they are all sitting at desks in Tel Aviv, but my money is that you are correct that there is some level of active involvement.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]
People are passing around a NY Post article (that I didn't save or engage with) where a friend of his said that he was told AB had some knowledge of some involvement, but I'll wait on if other outlets would run with that or have more on the story. On the other hand/otherwise, I'm reminded that The Intercept filed this story almost exactly a month ago: Biden Admin Deployed Air Force Team to Israel to Assist With Targets, Document Suggests - Guidance for officers deployed to Israel appears to show the U.S. military providing intelligence for airstrikes in Gaza.
Re: that tweet - I lost the threads that came out about two months back but there was socmed posts with people posting from the area in uniform, but it was never picked up by anyone else to see if there's more than that.
posted by cendawanita at 7:50 AM on February 28 [8 favorites]
Re: that tweet - I lost the threads that came out about two months back but there was socmed posts with people posting from the area in uniform, but it was never picked up by anyone else to see if there's more than that.
posted by cendawanita at 7:50 AM on February 28 [8 favorites]
And he took action. He took non-violent action.
Burning yourself to death is not non-violent. It just points the violence inwards instead of outwards.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]
Burning yourself to death is not non-violent. It just points the violence inwards instead of outwards.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]
That was a hunger strike, not immolation. There's a very long and rich history of hunger strikes, with quite a few being at least partially effective. Part of why they work as often as they do is that they are slow and controllable -- people can start and stop them well before death, and it can go on and on for weeks and months.
I defy you to learn the details of Bobby Sands and the 1981 Irish Hunger Strike and say that. There may have been some feints at real negotiation at first, but Thatcher being Thatcher they got shut down cold. Bobby Sands spent a lot of time knowing he was not getting a reprieve and faced his fate unflinchingly. A can't see how drawing out the ordeal makes it any less brutal.
posted by whuppy at 10:35 AM on February 28 [9 favorites]
I defy you to learn the details of Bobby Sands and the 1981 Irish Hunger Strike and say that. There may have been some feints at real negotiation at first, but Thatcher being Thatcher they got shut down cold. Bobby Sands spent a lot of time knowing he was not getting a reprieve and faced his fate unflinchingly. A can't see how drawing out the ordeal makes it any less brutal.
posted by whuppy at 10:35 AM on February 28 [9 favorites]
If you aren't literally prepared to die, and you don't convince your oppressors that you are literally prepared to die, your hunger strike is not likely to work because all they have to do is wait until you stop. I've seen a number of people start "hunger strikes" that did nothing because it was clear to all and sundry that they were not in fact going to starve themselves to death, and they didn't.
Self-immolation, when successful, has tended to create an indelible impression of the sense of urgency on the part of people who are watching that has moved them to other more extreme actions - a radicalizing event, if you will.
I think this is really true, and the whole "he was sick, this was just the depression talking, don't do it kids" thing is a culture-wide defense mechanism. What this guy did was to say "I think what's going on is so serious that I am prepared to die to draw your attention to it, in the hopes that you will act" and every person of conscience responds to that statement in some way, usually by intensifying what they are doing, whether that is going from "nothing" to "sent a couple of emails" or from doing a lot to doing more.
I think that saying "anyone whose philosophy makes me uncomfortable is crazy" and "anyone who is ready to die is sick" is a bad way to organize society. These are the sort of beliefs that only make sense in very specific milieux in very specific moments -if life seems comfortable and the world seems to hew toward hope and justice, those beliefs may feel reasonable, because in general the moral choices we make and the options we face are not that bad.
I also think that it ends up being really insulting to people's agency. The bar for "I think you're sick, you no longer have the right to dispose of your own life" should be really, really high, not just "you seem like you're reasonable and capable of ordinary human decision-making, but you're doing something I disagree with profoundly and that means you must be mentally ill".
The "you must be sick" logic would have us force-feeding hunger-strikers, for one thing, and historically that has been frowned upon.
Somewhere Orwell says that if we accept that anyone who does anything wrong/cruel must be mentally ill, we're also saying that people who are unusually good must be mentally ill - that there's a universal norm of human comfort- and stasis-seeking and that anyone who veers outside of it is sick.
posted by Frowner at 11:13 AM on February 28 [19 favorites]
Self-immolation, when successful, has tended to create an indelible impression of the sense of urgency on the part of people who are watching that has moved them to other more extreme actions - a radicalizing event, if you will.
I think this is really true, and the whole "he was sick, this was just the depression talking, don't do it kids" thing is a culture-wide defense mechanism. What this guy did was to say "I think what's going on is so serious that I am prepared to die to draw your attention to it, in the hopes that you will act" and every person of conscience responds to that statement in some way, usually by intensifying what they are doing, whether that is going from "nothing" to "sent a couple of emails" or from doing a lot to doing more.
I think that saying "anyone whose philosophy makes me uncomfortable is crazy" and "anyone who is ready to die is sick" is a bad way to organize society. These are the sort of beliefs that only make sense in very specific milieux in very specific moments -if life seems comfortable and the world seems to hew toward hope and justice, those beliefs may feel reasonable, because in general the moral choices we make and the options we face are not that bad.
I also think that it ends up being really insulting to people's agency. The bar for "I think you're sick, you no longer have the right to dispose of your own life" should be really, really high, not just "you seem like you're reasonable and capable of ordinary human decision-making, but you're doing something I disagree with profoundly and that means you must be mentally ill".
The "you must be sick" logic would have us force-feeding hunger-strikers, for one thing, and historically that has been frowned upon.
Somewhere Orwell says that if we accept that anyone who does anything wrong/cruel must be mentally ill, we're also saying that people who are unusually good must be mentally ill - that there's a universal norm of human comfort- and stasis-seeking and that anyone who veers outside of it is sick.
posted by Frowner at 11:13 AM on February 28 [19 favorites]
I do think that happy people who feel good about their lives rarely self-immolate.
This cries out for a "yes, and?". Yes, generally people who are feeling good do not commit suicide; that's true. One might call feeling otherwise "being disturbed", because it's an apt phrase. Being described as "disturbed" has two meanings: it can be a euphemism for being mentally unwell, or a term for being extremely upset. But really, the latter isn't that different from the former. Sick systems make sick people, and that's as true for a psychological landscape as a physical one.
I've seen it said that depression is the sickness of seeing the world as it is, rather than protected by comforting illusions. That may be an oversimplification but it's definitely true that the drastic actions people feel are necessary are reactions to a troubling world, not wholly born of their own mental state.
posted by jackbishop at 11:24 AM on February 28 [6 favorites]
This cries out for a "yes, and?". Yes, generally people who are feeling good do not commit suicide; that's true. One might call feeling otherwise "being disturbed", because it's an apt phrase. Being described as "disturbed" has two meanings: it can be a euphemism for being mentally unwell, or a term for being extremely upset. But really, the latter isn't that different from the former. Sick systems make sick people, and that's as true for a psychological landscape as a physical one.
I've seen it said that depression is the sickness of seeing the world as it is, rather than protected by comforting illusions. That may be an oversimplification but it's definitely true that the drastic actions people feel are necessary are reactions to a troubling world, not wholly born of their own mental state.
posted by jackbishop at 11:24 AM on February 28 [6 favorites]
The "you must be sick" logic would have us force-feeding hunger-strikers, for one thing, and historically that has been frowned upon.
Frowned-upon perhaps, but commonly done. The US did that in Guantanamo, for example (reportedly done deliberately brutally as way of punishing/disincentivizing hunger strikers). It wasn't done for the H-block prisoners because, to my understanding, the recent controversy over the Price sisters, plus some prior deaths from force-feeding.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:29 PM on February 28 [1 favorite]
Frowned-upon perhaps, but commonly done. The US did that in Guantanamo, for example (reportedly done deliberately brutally as way of punishing/disincentivizing hunger strikers). It wasn't done for the H-block prisoners because, to my understanding, the recent controversy over the Price sisters, plus some prior deaths from force-feeding.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:29 PM on February 28 [1 favorite]
Aaron Bush bell’s act of political despair
What did it matter that Bushnell had the right to vote if he had no real choice? That he was a member of the military surely made matters worse. His final message on Facebook read, “Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?’ The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
posted by Artw at 12:41 PM on February 28 [9 favorites]
What did it matter that Bushnell had the right to vote if he had no real choice? That he was a member of the military surely made matters worse. His final message on Facebook read, “Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?’ The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
posted by Artw at 12:41 PM on February 28 [9 favorites]
I've seen it said that depression is the sickness of seeing the world as it is, rather than protected by comforting illusions. That may be an oversimplification but it's definitely true that the drastic actions people feel are necessary are reactions to a troubling world, not wholly born of their own mental state.
I should, perhaps, be more clear about my positionality here.
About fifteen years ago, I and a number of other Iraq veterans made the decision that it was worth dying to call attention to what was happening in Iraq. We came up with a plan that if we could not make it in to see the politicians we were trying to reach that we thought could stop the war, we were going to allow ourselves to be shot by police, in uniform, carrying American flags, on live television, to see if that made the American public pay attention. We carefully planned how we would arrange our formation, how we would continue to hold the flags as we were dying, for maximum visibility. One of our number apologized, on the bullhorn, to the police in advance for the trauma that we believed we were going to inflict on them with our deaths. We knew they were under orders to fire if we continued to move, and we planned to do so anyway. I will never forget that moment, of the call of the march, of expecting to be met with bullets, of being surprised by yelling as a politicians aide came out waving frantically for the police to stand down, offering us compromises that now, with the perspective of age, I wonder if we had a right to accept.
I do not disparage Aaron Bushnell when I say that I believe he must have been in great despair, or that I believe, from my current perspective and age, him to have been very young. I was once in great despair. I was once very young. Bullets are far easier to face than fire.
My feelings about him are extremely complicated, and shift from hour to hour and from day to day. As, I am sure, they were intended to. I am almost certainly a member of his target audience. As are many of you. I think a poster up thread was deeply correct in saying that the only certain thing is that we must sit with this, and that there are no easy answers. I do not want more comrades to die over this. But it is undeniable that people are dying, and our current actions are not stopping it. I think our obligation is to think more deeply about what will.
posted by corb at 2:09 PM on February 28 [20 favorites]
I should, perhaps, be more clear about my positionality here.
About fifteen years ago, I and a number of other Iraq veterans made the decision that it was worth dying to call attention to what was happening in Iraq. We came up with a plan that if we could not make it in to see the politicians we were trying to reach that we thought could stop the war, we were going to allow ourselves to be shot by police, in uniform, carrying American flags, on live television, to see if that made the American public pay attention. We carefully planned how we would arrange our formation, how we would continue to hold the flags as we were dying, for maximum visibility. One of our number apologized, on the bullhorn, to the police in advance for the trauma that we believed we were going to inflict on them with our deaths. We knew they were under orders to fire if we continued to move, and we planned to do so anyway. I will never forget that moment, of the call of the march, of expecting to be met with bullets, of being surprised by yelling as a politicians aide came out waving frantically for the police to stand down, offering us compromises that now, with the perspective of age, I wonder if we had a right to accept.
I do not disparage Aaron Bushnell when I say that I believe he must have been in great despair, or that I believe, from my current perspective and age, him to have been very young. I was once in great despair. I was once very young. Bullets are far easier to face than fire.
My feelings about him are extremely complicated, and shift from hour to hour and from day to day. As, I am sure, they were intended to. I am almost certainly a member of his target audience. As are many of you. I think a poster up thread was deeply correct in saying that the only certain thing is that we must sit with this, and that there are no easy answers. I do not want more comrades to die over this. But it is undeniable that people are dying, and our current actions are not stopping it. I think our obligation is to think more deeply about what will.
posted by corb at 2:09 PM on February 28 [20 favorites]
From that paper I shared earlier, I'd also invite others to reflect on this portion (which I feel articulates some dynamics playing out in this thread too):
... In my earlier study, which investigated the graveside testimonials left by those who visited the gravesite of a suicide protester in Korea (Kim, 2002), many of the visitors felt a strong feeling of anger at the authorities, who they believed had been ultimately responsible for the death of the suicide protester, and compassion with the oppressed Korean people, for whom the suicide protester killed herself. The emotional resonance between the suicide protesters and those left behind is apparent.
In addition, many of the graveside visitors also expressed feeling a strong sense of shame at the sight of the suicide protester's grave. The invocation of shame by the act of suicide protest may appear counter-intuitive, but it lies at the heart of the framing power of suicide protest. As Michael Lewis (1992) correctly points out, "the elicitors of shame appears to reside in one's evaluation of the negative evaluations of others" (33). A double process underlies the invocation of shame: others negatively evaluate (or disapprove) one; and one becomes cognizant of such negative evaluation of oneself by others. In other words, one feels ashamed when one's true self (or one's shortcomings in character) is "exposed" to others. By coincidence or by design, the symbols of suicide protest create perfect cognitive conditions for eliciting shame. As discussed earlier, the act of suicide protest has half-hearted activists and apathetic bystanders as its main target audience. As such, it invites them to a form of self-reflection and evaluation. The example of ultimate sacrifice set by suicide protest provides the "standards" against which one's character and deed is evaluated. The "living corpses" self-portrait, as charged by suicide protesters, renders the judgment that the target audience is short of the standards. The system injustice and urgency symbolized by the act of suicide protest accentuates the historical and social significance of such shortage. Out of this inescapable self-evaluation ensues an acute feeling of shame at oneself. This way the act of suicide protest "exposes" the true image of those left behind and "shames" them into movement activism. The triple emotions induced by suicide protest - righteous indignation, compassion, and shame - thus provides the "hot button" (Gamson, 1982) necessary for inducing
target audience into real action. Charged with this emotional energy, suicide protest in Korea offered a passionate call for action
Perhaps shame as an emotion is something with a different reactivity for those raised in western norms, but also more pertinently it may not even be the right emotion for an issue that is apparently not as widely agreed.
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 PM on February 28 [8 favorites]
... In my earlier study, which investigated the graveside testimonials left by those who visited the gravesite of a suicide protester in Korea (Kim, 2002), many of the visitors felt a strong feeling of anger at the authorities, who they believed had been ultimately responsible for the death of the suicide protester, and compassion with the oppressed Korean people, for whom the suicide protester killed herself. The emotional resonance between the suicide protesters and those left behind is apparent.
In addition, many of the graveside visitors also expressed feeling a strong sense of shame at the sight of the suicide protester's grave. The invocation of shame by the act of suicide protest may appear counter-intuitive, but it lies at the heart of the framing power of suicide protest. As Michael Lewis (1992) correctly points out, "the elicitors of shame appears to reside in one's evaluation of the negative evaluations of others" (33). A double process underlies the invocation of shame: others negatively evaluate (or disapprove) one; and one becomes cognizant of such negative evaluation of oneself by others. In other words, one feels ashamed when one's true self (or one's shortcomings in character) is "exposed" to others. By coincidence or by design, the symbols of suicide protest create perfect cognitive conditions for eliciting shame. As discussed earlier, the act of suicide protest has half-hearted activists and apathetic bystanders as its main target audience. As such, it invites them to a form of self-reflection and evaluation. The example of ultimate sacrifice set by suicide protest provides the "standards" against which one's character and deed is evaluated. The "living corpses" self-portrait, as charged by suicide protesters, renders the judgment that the target audience is short of the standards. The system injustice and urgency symbolized by the act of suicide protest accentuates the historical and social significance of such shortage. Out of this inescapable self-evaluation ensues an acute feeling of shame at oneself. This way the act of suicide protest "exposes" the true image of those left behind and "shames" them into movement activism. The triple emotions induced by suicide protest - righteous indignation, compassion, and shame - thus provides the "hot button" (Gamson, 1982) necessary for inducing
target audience into real action. Charged with this emotional energy, suicide protest in Korea offered a passionate call for action
Perhaps shame as an emotion is something with a different reactivity for those raised in western norms, but also more pertinently it may not even be the right emotion for an issue that is apparently not as widely agreed.
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 PM on February 28 [8 favorites]
Masha Gessen: Aaron Bushnell’s Act of Political Despair - What does it mean for an American to self-immolate?
Being passed around: Times of Israel, Nov 2023: US special forces said deployed to help Israel track down hostages held in Gaza - Senior Pentagon official says commandos on ground aiding efforts to ‘identify hostages, including Americans,’ NY Times reports
A tweet with screenshot of deleted White House ig post where Biden was shaking hands with "first responders". Those who understand the fatigues might be able to confirm.
posted by cendawanita at 12:18 AM on February 29 [7 favorites]
Being passed around: Times of Israel, Nov 2023: US special forces said deployed to help Israel track down hostages held in Gaza - Senior Pentagon official says commandos on ground aiding efforts to ‘identify hostages, including Americans,’ NY Times reports
A tweet with screenshot of deleted White House ig post where Biden was shaking hands with "first responders". Those who understand the fatigues might be able to confirm.
posted by cendawanita at 12:18 AM on February 29 [7 favorites]
CW: Suicide/upsetting descriptions thereof
I saw the unblurred video of Aaron's protest. I wish I hadn't, but I'm glad that I did. For those of you, who can't watch it, I do want to say that you should know that he stood tall until the moment he dropped. As his uniform disintegrated off of him, he looked firm and focused. It was incredibly disturbing, but maybe also the most profoundly moving thing I've ever witnessed. I don't think his sacrifice is in vain. It certainly was meaningful to me, as an anarchist struggling daily with the dissonance of existing at this moment. In a strange way, his death has made me feel less alone. Aaron Bushnell lived his principles and died in truth. He is a hero in my eyes. I am sad that his bravery and love will not be with us for the fight ahead. I hope that people who are struggling with suicidality realize that they don't have to follow in his path, and I don't believe that suicide itself or death generally should be glorified.
Please don't speculate, but learn about him in his own words and by the memories of his friends and comrades:
https://www.anarchistfederation.net/memories-of-aaron-bushnell-as-recounted-by-his-friends/
posted by Krazor at 10:23 AM on February 29 [11 favorites]
I saw the unblurred video of Aaron's protest. I wish I hadn't, but I'm glad that I did. For those of you, who can't watch it, I do want to say that you should know that he stood tall until the moment he dropped. As his uniform disintegrated off of him, he looked firm and focused. It was incredibly disturbing, but maybe also the most profoundly moving thing I've ever witnessed. I don't think his sacrifice is in vain. It certainly was meaningful to me, as an anarchist struggling daily with the dissonance of existing at this moment. In a strange way, his death has made me feel less alone. Aaron Bushnell lived his principles and died in truth. He is a hero in my eyes. I am sad that his bravery and love will not be with us for the fight ahead. I hope that people who are struggling with suicidality realize that they don't have to follow in his path, and I don't believe that suicide itself or death generally should be glorified.
Please don't speculate, but learn about him in his own words and by the memories of his friends and comrades:
https://www.anarchistfederation.net/memories-of-aaron-bushnell-as-recounted-by-his-friends/
posted by Krazor at 10:23 AM on February 29 [11 favorites]
From The Nation, Afghan war vet Lyle Jeremy Rubin: Taking Aaron Bushnell at His Word (and Deed): Bushnell concedes that his protest is extreme. And yet it pales in comparison to the extremism it is protesting. An extremism not just of everyday death and destruction, but one that qualifies as colonial domination. It is not only that the Israelis or their patron, the Americans, determines which Palestinian lives or dies today or yesterday or tomorrow. It is that they—we—decide how they get to live or die. With or without shelter or food. With or without gainful employment or a loved one or the capacity to move across this or that otherwise invisible, arbitrary line. It is impossible to connote in a single paragraph the depths of this humiliation, of having one’s bare existence leashed to the whims of an undeserving, self-satisfied master. I enforced a related, humiliating relationship in Afghanistan almost a decade and a half ago, as one of many uniformed humiliators. I still haven’t figured out how best to communicate that vice. I don’t have it in me to say Bushnell has found a better way. The implication of that conclusion is too dark. But I do hope he’s done it better.
(...)I doubt that Bushnell would have wanted us to follow in his footsteps—at least not by dousing ourselves in gasoline before a sad and enraged farewell. But he no doubt was counting on us—and not just us service members or vets—to convey and make use of the sadness and rage in our own ways. In manners that burn and last. Beyond the man-made firestorms in Gaza. Beyond the all-encompassing fire.
So, a couple of tweets I saw:
- (From a protest in Portland, Oregon): A moving act of solidarity as veterans burn their uniforms at a vigil for Aaron Bushnell hosted by veterans against war. This was after some extremely moving speeches, including a Vietnam War veteran who was a part of the SDS and did a lot of anti-war organizing.
- update from the vigil of the site of his protest: Authorities in D.C. removed a vigil set up outside the Israeli embassy for Aaron Bushnell.
In response, activists launched their own “settlement” outside the embassy in protest against the regime and to ensure the vigil remains untouched.
They’re calling it “Kibbutz Israel.”
posted by cendawanita at 10:34 AM on February 29 [13 favorites]
(...)I doubt that Bushnell would have wanted us to follow in his footsteps—at least not by dousing ourselves in gasoline before a sad and enraged farewell. But he no doubt was counting on us—and not just us service members or vets—to convey and make use of the sadness and rage in our own ways. In manners that burn and last. Beyond the man-made firestorms in Gaza. Beyond the all-encompassing fire.
So, a couple of tweets I saw:
- (From a protest in Portland, Oregon): A moving act of solidarity as veterans burn their uniforms at a vigil for Aaron Bushnell hosted by veterans against war. This was after some extremely moving speeches, including a Vietnam War veteran who was a part of the SDS and did a lot of anti-war organizing.
- update from the vigil of the site of his protest: Authorities in D.C. removed a vigil set up outside the Israeli embassy for Aaron Bushnell.
In response, activists launched their own “settlement” outside the embassy in protest against the regime and to ensure the vigil remains untouched.
They’re calling it “Kibbutz Israel.”
posted by cendawanita at 10:34 AM on February 29 [13 favorites]
Memories of Aaron Bushnell - As Recounted by His Friends
In the same document, Aaron explained why he was committed to doing mutual aid work in solidarity with the unhoused:posted by kmt at 1:12 PM on February 29 [8 favorites]I’ve always been bothered by the reality of homelessness, even back when I was growing up in a conservative community. I have come to believe in the importance of solidarity politics and I view the enforcement of homelessness as a major front in the class war which must be challenged for all our sakes. I view helping my houseless neighbors as a moral obligation, a matter of social justice, and a matter of good politics. If I don’t stand with those more marginalized than me today then who will be left to stand with me tomorrow.
I view enforced homelessness as a societal failing and a crime against humanity. I believe that no one deserves to be deprived of basic human necessities. I believe that homelessness as an involuntary condition must be abolished.
Thanks for the post - had no idea about the December event in Alabama.
Its worth explicitly stating what Bushnell was protesting.
Sadly there has not been traction about US made white phosphorus which has been spoken about for years. From 2009 That horror should have been addressed years ago.
The people talking about this being a waste/poor protest method - what are the demonstrated effective alternatives?
Sighing up to social media and posting how the events suck? Marching? Getting the US to have a law - how's the enforcement of sanctions/not sending aid for undeclared nuclear powers worked out? How about not buying products who's production chain comes from Israel given in some places in the US of A that was made illegal?
Yes, setting yourself on fire might not turn out effective but what's the non-fire action to take when the people who are making money off killing others are tied to the decision makers? It was a horrible action to take but its getting more discussion than plenty of other attempts to protest.
What might see some traction is the military breaks people. If the military breaks you the history of VA services for mending the break is beyond poor. Do you end up pickling yourself to death with substance abuse instead as reporting about vets indicate? Checking out the way he did avoids trying to get service from the VA and a potential slide into substance abuse with joblessness and homelessness because what the US military does breaks people.
Anyone in junior high and high school should be exposed to how service is a mental meat grinder for FAR too many people and has been going on long enough that Smedly Butler was talking about how much of a racket the military is.
The Hill had a report that US special forces are in Gaza tunnels. That should not be shocking - either the habitiual linecrosser or a guy named Ryan point out how part of being an American citizen is the US military can be deployed to come and get you in case you end up in trouble like a hostage. If that reason really bothered Aaron it is harder to agree than so many other ways to become upset over what the US government does. But the rest of the horror of the events in Gaza...godspeed to you Aaron and may your visceral public protest not have been in vain.
Oh and don't go down the 'was he mentally ill' path here as others are doing that and few posters here are gonna like the result those kind of people are posting elsewhere. So lets not.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:14 PM on February 29 [7 favorites]
Its worth explicitly stating what Bushnell was protesting.
Sadly there has not been traction about US made white phosphorus which has been spoken about for years. From 2009 That horror should have been addressed years ago.
The people talking about this being a waste/poor protest method - what are the demonstrated effective alternatives?
Sighing up to social media and posting how the events suck? Marching? Getting the US to have a law - how's the enforcement of sanctions/not sending aid for undeclared nuclear powers worked out? How about not buying products who's production chain comes from Israel given in some places in the US of A that was made illegal?
Yes, setting yourself on fire might not turn out effective but what's the non-fire action to take when the people who are making money off killing others are tied to the decision makers? It was a horrible action to take but its getting more discussion than plenty of other attempts to protest.
What might see some traction is the military breaks people. If the military breaks you the history of VA services for mending the break is beyond poor. Do you end up pickling yourself to death with substance abuse instead as reporting about vets indicate? Checking out the way he did avoids trying to get service from the VA and a potential slide into substance abuse with joblessness and homelessness because what the US military does breaks people.
Anyone in junior high and high school should be exposed to how service is a mental meat grinder for FAR too many people and has been going on long enough that Smedly Butler was talking about how much of a racket the military is.
The Hill had a report that US special forces are in Gaza tunnels. That should not be shocking - either the habitiual linecrosser or a guy named Ryan point out how part of being an American citizen is the US military can be deployed to come and get you in case you end up in trouble like a hostage. If that reason really bothered Aaron it is harder to agree than so many other ways to become upset over what the US government does. But the rest of the horror of the events in Gaza...godspeed to you Aaron and may your visceral public protest not have been in vain.
Oh and don't go down the 'was he mentally ill' path here as others are doing that and few posters here are gonna like the result those kind of people are posting elsewhere. So lets not.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:14 PM on February 29 [7 favorites]
Those who understand the fatigues might be able to confirm.
Delta Force gets to choose whatever uniform they'd like to wear so that's not going to be much help I did notice three insignia badges most likely secret service those are the blue and white pins everything else is pretty much considered unmarked except for of course the tattoos , f****** smart of the White House to do that.
I don't understand one bit why folks are assessing this man's mental capabilities. he could have resigned, he could have leaked secrets, he could have gone batshit insane and hurt people but he didn't.
the guard with the drawn pistol that's part of a procedure when someone is on fire in front of a embassy or government facility the reason being there might be more explosives or flammable liquids. I noticed the reaction to the guard and it was kind of surreal he actually looked away several times and that was his mistake he was not supposed to take his eyes off that person one bit. I think he was caught between his instincts and his humanity.
Aaron worked on Intel, to what degree who knows. when the early reports that he was from San Antonio came out it was pretty good guess. I'm all for all sorts of protests but when soldiers just burn their uniform, metals etc I don't find that very symbolic at all.find a rather childishly purile. But to each their own.
posted by clavdivs at 1:42 PM on February 29
Delta Force gets to choose whatever uniform they'd like to wear so that's not going to be much help I did notice three insignia badges most likely secret service those are the blue and white pins everything else is pretty much considered unmarked except for of course the tattoos , f****** smart of the White House to do that.
I don't understand one bit why folks are assessing this man's mental capabilities. he could have resigned, he could have leaked secrets, he could have gone batshit insane and hurt people but he didn't.
the guard with the drawn pistol that's part of a procedure when someone is on fire in front of a embassy or government facility the reason being there might be more explosives or flammable liquids. I noticed the reaction to the guard and it was kind of surreal he actually looked away several times and that was his mistake he was not supposed to take his eyes off that person one bit. I think he was caught between his instincts and his humanity.
Aaron worked on Intel, to what degree who knows. when the early reports that he was from San Antonio came out it was pretty good guess. I'm all for all sorts of protests but when soldiers just burn their uniform, metals etc I don't find that very symbolic at all.find a rather childishly purile. But to each their own.
posted by clavdivs at 1:42 PM on February 29
If sacrificing ones life to protest a genocide is "childishly purile," what is sacrificing one's life for imperialist conquest? The former appears to have been done after quite a bit of thought and deep introspection. The latter is mostly done by young men without fully formed frontal lobes committing to such a path as teenagers (ie: literal children) after coming up on GI Joes, Call of Duty video games, and pentagon subsidized cinematic propaganda.
I dunno. If there was childishness in Airman Bushnell, it seems as if that's what he was putting behind himself when he committed to this act. Though, I suppose we can only interpret the world with the lenses we ourselves have.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:24 PM on February 29 [11 favorites]
I dunno. If there was childishness in Airman Bushnell, it seems as if that's what he was putting behind himself when he committed to this act. Though, I suppose we can only interpret the world with the lenses we ourselves have.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:24 PM on February 29 [11 favorites]
I'm all for all sorts of protests but when soldiers just burn their uniform, metals etc I don't find that very symbolic at all.find a rather childishly purile.
I imagine the reason it bothers you is the exact reason why it is a meaningful gesture.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:47 PM on February 29 [10 favorites]
I imagine the reason it bothers you is the exact reason why it is a meaningful gesture.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:47 PM on February 29 [10 favorites]
puerile, auto correct. No, doesn't bother me. I have no idea what cpanarchist is referring too, I'm talking folks who burn their uniforms and medals. I don't believe that's government property any longer. to digress, the burning the draft card was technically illegal so that was symbolically important.
it's trivial because they're just symbols. those symbols could be taken and sold that money given to charity that person really wanted to make a symbolic protest they should burn all the letters and pictures they have while they served. the great thing about serving is that once you're done you've retained the unequivocal right to criticize your country and protest it's actions.
posted by clavdivs at 9:46 PM on February 29
it's trivial because they're just symbols. those symbols could be taken and sold that money given to charity that person really wanted to make a symbolic protest they should burn all the letters and pictures they have while they served. the great thing about serving is that once you're done you've retained the unequivocal right to criticize your country and protest it's actions.
posted by clavdivs at 9:46 PM on February 29
From Talia Jane, the reporter who broke the story: (Rolling Stone) Aaron Bushnell’s Self-Immolation Protest Needed to Be Seen. But That Didn’t Make It Easy to Report
I debated publishing the footage, worried about sensationalism versus pragmatism. I spoke with other reporters, who determined it was newsworthy. I spoke with Aaron’s close friends, who determined that because it was Aaron’s expressed wish for it to be published, it should be. It was decided by Aaron’s community that if the most I could reasonably post contained a blur, it should be posted. I posted the video 15 minutes after Aaron Bushnell succumbed to his injuries, and half an hour before his loved ones learned he had.
Bushnell emailed multiple alternative news outlets, including Atlanta Community Press Collective, with a link to the Twitch channel and an announcement that he would be partaking in an “extreme act of protest against the genocide of the Palestinian people.” Some didn’t see the email until it was too late. Others did, and worked tirelessly with researchers to identify, locate, and stop whatever he meant by an “extreme act of protest.” I hope people know how hard they worked to intervene — and how severely it shattered them that they couldn’t. In spite of that, I’m still baffled that I became the one to carry this story forward. I hope those reporters and researchers know I was working to do justice to the story on their behalf, holding them with me as they grappled with the unimaginable shock of witnessing, in real time, what he meant.
Remembering Aaron Bushnell: I've seen posts from London, from this Yemeni YouTuber, from the West Bank of the OPT, from Gaza. And speaking of that: Fahad Ali, a Palestinian-Australian: Gaza sees everything we’re doing. Reflect on that for a second. We’ve been camped outside the PM’s office for 2+ weeks, and I’ve thought to myself “this isn’t enough”. And then I see messages from Gaza praising us. People in the midst of genocide praising us. Think about that.
Bisan from Gaza also posted a video (twt copy) and she also spoke about Palestinian eyewitness accounts of seeing US soldiers on the ground.
Palestinians also heard about his will as shared above, and to quote Fahad Ali again as representative: Aaron Bushnell’s final wish was for his ashes to one day be scattered in a free Palestine, should we Palestinians consent. It would be our honour. He, like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall, will never be forgotten. Their memory will live forever in our earth, in our bones.
As shared in the still-active Rafah thread, following Michigan here are other "uncommitted" campaigns: Washington State, Colorado, and Minnesota.
posted by cendawanita at 11:41 PM on February 29 [12 favorites]
I debated publishing the footage, worried about sensationalism versus pragmatism. I spoke with other reporters, who determined it was newsworthy. I spoke with Aaron’s close friends, who determined that because it was Aaron’s expressed wish for it to be published, it should be. It was decided by Aaron’s community that if the most I could reasonably post contained a blur, it should be posted. I posted the video 15 minutes after Aaron Bushnell succumbed to his injuries, and half an hour before his loved ones learned he had.
Bushnell emailed multiple alternative news outlets, including Atlanta Community Press Collective, with a link to the Twitch channel and an announcement that he would be partaking in an “extreme act of protest against the genocide of the Palestinian people.” Some didn’t see the email until it was too late. Others did, and worked tirelessly with researchers to identify, locate, and stop whatever he meant by an “extreme act of protest.” I hope people know how hard they worked to intervene — and how severely it shattered them that they couldn’t. In spite of that, I’m still baffled that I became the one to carry this story forward. I hope those reporters and researchers know I was working to do justice to the story on their behalf, holding them with me as they grappled with the unimaginable shock of witnessing, in real time, what he meant.
Remembering Aaron Bushnell: I've seen posts from London, from this Yemeni YouTuber, from the West Bank of the OPT, from Gaza. And speaking of that: Fahad Ali, a Palestinian-Australian: Gaza sees everything we’re doing. Reflect on that for a second. We’ve been camped outside the PM’s office for 2+ weeks, and I’ve thought to myself “this isn’t enough”. And then I see messages from Gaza praising us. People in the midst of genocide praising us. Think about that.
Bisan from Gaza also posted a video (twt copy) and she also spoke about Palestinian eyewitness accounts of seeing US soldiers on the ground.
Palestinians also heard about his will as shared above, and to quote Fahad Ali again as representative: Aaron Bushnell’s final wish was for his ashes to one day be scattered in a free Palestine, should we Palestinians consent. It would be our honour. He, like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall, will never be forgotten. Their memory will live forever in our earth, in our bones.
As shared in the still-active Rafah thread, following Michigan here are other "uncommitted" campaigns: Washington State, Colorado, and Minnesota.
posted by cendawanita at 11:41 PM on February 29 [12 favorites]
This sentence from The New Yorker articled linked by cendawanita caught my attention
Perhaps he saw the U.S. government argue that there is no legal pathway for citizens to stop the government from providing military aid, even if it can be shown that the aid is used to genocidal ends.
posted by infini at 12:27 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
Perhaps he saw the U.S. government argue that there is no legal pathway for citizens to stop the government from providing military aid, even if it can be shown that the aid is used to genocidal ends.
posted by infini at 12:27 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
Btw, from Sam Husseini: "Jane Doe" Who Immolated Herself at Israeli Consulate in Atlanta Last Year Is Still Alive
posted by cendawanita at 1:02 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:02 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]
I found this extended tweet worth reposting here, in lieu of my own words.
Source link
Source link
And all this time part of me keeps thinking: this is what white colonialism is doing in 2024, when almost everything is recorded and watched worldwide, and after The Holocaust and all the beautiful conventions.posted by infini at 4:11 AM on March 1 [9 favorites]
Can you imagine what it has been doing for 5 centuries when no one was looking? Can you see and feel some of the horror inflicted upon the native tribes and communities in the New World, and how they were treated? Of Indians under British imperialism? Of people in the Congo, and so many other parts of Africa? The natives in Canada, New Zealand, and Australia? The Philippines?
I'm looking at Gaza, and how its slaughter is being framed in the West and I feel like yes, I'm getting some of it. A taste of it. It is like a delirium sequence from Apocalypse Now, but spanning centuries.
Can we really comprehend the scope and implications of 5 centuries of this? The hundreds of millions. the billions of people whose cultures and stories have been forever impacted by this, if they even managed to survive it?
Gaza is a time capsule of things that have been unfolding for centuries across the globe. It should change our historical and political understanding forever
the guard with the drawn pistol that's part of a procedure when someone is on fire in front of a embassy or government facility the reason being there might be more explosives or flammable liquids.
Talk about when your only solution is a hammer. How is this procedure going to be helpful in anyway? Chemical reactions aren't going to be deterred by threat of violence. Heck if there are explosives having procedure require someone to stand in pistol range is just needlessly insisting someone put themselves at risk for no reason.
posted by Mitheral at 4:36 AM on March 1 [13 favorites]
Talk about when your only solution is a hammer. How is this procedure going to be helpful in anyway? Chemical reactions aren't going to be deterred by threat of violence. Heck if there are explosives having procedure require someone to stand in pistol range is just needlessly insisting someone put themselves at risk for no reason.
posted by Mitheral at 4:36 AM on March 1 [13 favorites]
How is this procedure going to be helpful in anyway
In amongst the horror, this bit of farce reminded me of something like
"Your ... minute mission is to ... pistol ... stand ... unsafe distance ... aim ... and monitor them"
No one can say they didn't react decisively.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:09 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
In amongst the horror, this bit of farce reminded me of something like
"Your ... minute mission is to ... pistol ... stand ... unsafe distance ... aim ... and monitor them"
No one can say they didn't react decisively.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:09 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Burnt Offerings - Aaron Bushnell and the age of immolation (n+1 magazine):
posted by kmt at 1:31 PM on March 1 [16 favorites]
To ask whether self-immolation is good or bad, justifiable or non-justifiable, effective or ineffective is in large part to miss the point, which is that it is an option, whether anyone else likes it or not. It illuminates our powerlessness in negative space, but it also affirms the irreducible core of our freedom, that small flame of agency that no repression can extinguish. Since Aaron Bushnell’s death by self-immolation this week in protest of Israel’s genocide in Gaza, his detractors have warned about the risk of “contagion,” suggesting that his protest will encourage imitators (who, they imply, share his alleged mental instability). There may or may not be additional self-immolators before the slaughter comes to an end, just as Bushnell was preceded by a woman, yet to be identified publicly, who burned herself outside the Israeli consulate in Atlanta in December. But the purpose of lighting yourself on fire is not to encourage other people to light themselves on fire. It is to scream to the world that you could find no alternative, and in that respect it is a challenge to the rest of us to prove with our own freedom that there are other ways to meaningfully resist a society whose cruelty has become intolerable.Emphasis not in the original.
posted by kmt at 1:31 PM on March 1 [16 favorites]
I live very close to where this happened and can say with some confidence that this young man's death has energized me and other activists and organizers I know in a way that very few things have over the unspeakably horrible last five months. None of us are going out to self-immolate but almost everyone I know (most of whom were already actively organizing and going to protests and donating and calling Councilmembers--as we in DC do not have a voting representative or Senators!) has stepped up their commitments in some way, whether it's by donating one more dollar or having a conversation with one more family member. It's beautiful and I will carry his memory with me always.
posted by lizard2590 at 1:53 PM on March 1 [9 favorites]
posted by lizard2590 at 1:53 PM on March 1 [9 favorites]
I have no idea what cpanarchist is referring too
My mistake. You spent 90% of a paragraph opining on a man who self immolated then tangented to individuals burning just their uniforms. My limited appetite for Meta's panel judging of protest efficacy leads to skimming at times.
My response is the same, regardless. Childishness is inherent when one identifies with US military propaganda. The decision to burn one's uniform is almost certainly more measured and mature than that.
posted by CPAnarchist at 2:35 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
My mistake. You spent 90% of a paragraph opining on a man who self immolated then tangented to individuals burning just their uniforms. My limited appetite for Meta's panel judging of protest efficacy leads to skimming at times.
My response is the same, regardless. Childishness is inherent when one identifies with US military propaganda. The decision to burn one's uniform is almost certainly more measured and mature than that.
posted by CPAnarchist at 2:35 PM on March 1 [6 favorites]
no, not at all. it's facile, it's momentary and symbolically it's about the individual for the individual.
I'll stick by my assertion, if one decides to forsake the military past, burn/ sell it all, half measures avail one of nothing.
Childishness is inherent when one identifies with US military propaganda.
I don't know what this conveys as it sounds like a dad meme about the functionality and moral purpose of the GI Joe.
I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm not saying that you're right I'm just saying I have my own opinion.
posted by clavdivs at 6:32 PM on March 1
I'll stick by my assertion, if one decides to forsake the military past, burn/ sell it all, half measures avail one of nothing.
Childishness is inherent when one identifies with US military propaganda.
I don't know what this conveys as it sounds like a dad meme about the functionality and moral purpose of the GI Joe.
I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm not saying that you're right I'm just saying I have my own opinion.
posted by clavdivs at 6:32 PM on March 1
“‘This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal.’” [21:02]—Anark, 01 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:28 PM on March 2 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:28 PM on March 2 [3 favorites]
Fwiw, acknowledgement of Aaron Bushnell's death continues. While it remains unlikely that his action alone will spur any kind of change, threads like this one and the ongoing Israel-Gaza War thread series certainly help bring light to the turning of the pendulum and what's really been going on in this species, especially considering the past 500 years, how we have escalated some of our processes, and how we should be cautious that we are not at all in control of where the sparks may come from and if/how the matches are lit. I don't have answers but I like what I'm reading in terms of what can we do... maybe we don't have an answer today, but I like to think this direct observation approach is more liable to produce it than, I don't know, the non-observational approach we've been using as a species. I believe the Germans called it not-see-ism and when Canadians do it, I call it cannot-see-ism, much like their fellow am-not-sees south of the border, but I digress.
So far I like acknowledging that what this guy did was call attention to the fact that it is undeniable that people are dying and our current actions are not stopping it. To suggest that he did this because of mental health issues quite frankly falls flat because we know it is possible to be full of despair because the world is wrong, because of real horrors and terrible acts. Bushnell called attention to complicity in an apartheid that's now all grown up into full fledged genocide. He called attention to the fact that only ~5 months into this particular war has caused the deaths of an estimated 10,000+ children and continues immolating hundreds of children day after day after day possibly while many Westerners are eating ice-cream. Right now this is absolutely the world we live in. Whatever the forces of evil are here, let's be honest, they are winning. What’s undeniable is Bushnell has ignited hope in hearts of millions around the world, and proved that men of honor and courage do indeed exist by using this action to say "what's going on is so serious that I am prepared to die to draw your attention to it, in the hopes that you will act", in the hopes that you will realize that whatever it is you would be doing had you been born during slavery, the Jim Crow South, or apartheid, you are doing it right now. With great controversy this point has been made using the end of a life. It is made of that entire life. That doesn't mean that it is not sometimes extremely effective. That there is an emotional resonance between the suicide protesters and those left behind is apparent in the ongoing acknowledgement and debate of his motivations. This was his scream to the world that he could find no alternative, and in that respect challenge the rest of us to prove with our own freedom that there are other ways to meaningfully resist a society whose cruelty has become intolerable. At the species level this was a hopeful call that something can happen to make us worthy of his courage, such as through every person of conscience responding to that statement in some way, usually by intensifying what they are doing, whether that is going from "nothing" to "sent a couple of emails" or from doing a lot to doing more. Until we can can better understand what to do -- what is it that we need to do as a species to get on a better course and off this track of endless butchering of ourselves in the other -- at the very least, I certainly agree that a particularly helpful stance to take toward an active duty US airman having burned himself alive to stop being complicit in genocide is just sitting with the gravity of it while quietly continuing to ponder what would it take.
I think all of this sounds like progress towards an answer, as little as it is, on a very charged topic for now.
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 AM on March 4 [6 favorites]
So far I like acknowledging that what this guy did was call attention to the fact that it is undeniable that people are dying and our current actions are not stopping it. To suggest that he did this because of mental health issues quite frankly falls flat because we know it is possible to be full of despair because the world is wrong, because of real horrors and terrible acts. Bushnell called attention to complicity in an apartheid that's now all grown up into full fledged genocide. He called attention to the fact that only ~5 months into this particular war has caused the deaths of an estimated 10,000+ children and continues immolating hundreds of children day after day after day possibly while many Westerners are eating ice-cream. Right now this is absolutely the world we live in. Whatever the forces of evil are here, let's be honest, they are winning. What’s undeniable is Bushnell has ignited hope in hearts of millions around the world, and proved that men of honor and courage do indeed exist by using this action to say "what's going on is so serious that I am prepared to die to draw your attention to it, in the hopes that you will act", in the hopes that you will realize that whatever it is you would be doing had you been born during slavery, the Jim Crow South, or apartheid, you are doing it right now. With great controversy this point has been made using the end of a life. It is made of that entire life. That doesn't mean that it is not sometimes extremely effective. That there is an emotional resonance between the suicide protesters and those left behind is apparent in the ongoing acknowledgement and debate of his motivations. This was his scream to the world that he could find no alternative, and in that respect challenge the rest of us to prove with our own freedom that there are other ways to meaningfully resist a society whose cruelty has become intolerable. At the species level this was a hopeful call that something can happen to make us worthy of his courage, such as through every person of conscience responding to that statement in some way, usually by intensifying what they are doing, whether that is going from "nothing" to "sent a couple of emails" or from doing a lot to doing more. Until we can can better understand what to do -- what is it that we need to do as a species to get on a better course and off this track of endless butchering of ourselves in the other -- at the very least, I certainly agree that a particularly helpful stance to take toward an active duty US airman having burned himself alive to stop being complicit in genocide is just sitting with the gravity of it while quietly continuing to ponder what would it take.
I think all of this sounds like progress towards an answer, as little as it is, on a very charged topic for now.
posted by human ecologist at 7:27 AM on March 4 [6 favorites]
It took them a whole week, human ecologist, but The Guardian has finally got a subdued comment/opinion on Bushnell which, imho, sounds like they are finally recognizing what you just said. Then again, they eventually did recognize what Gandhi managed to do with satyagraha, though it took the UK until this century to drop the label of terrorist for Mandela.
posted by infini at 11:29 AM on March 4 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:29 AM on March 4 [4 favorites]
FOR AARON BUSHNELL
In just a few months, he could have been an
Anti-war vet & anarchist. But that
He be active duty was important.
It was important for the uniform.
It was important to not put it off.
It was important to speak clearly. It
Was important to set the phone down
Just right. It was important to put the
Hat on over the accelerant. It
Was important not to panic when the
Match didn't immediately light. It was
Important his last words be FREE
PALESTINE. It was important he die
An anarchist. It was that important.
—wendy trevino
posted by i like crows very much at 12:03 AM on March 6 [4 favorites]
In just a few months, he could have been an
Anti-war vet & anarchist. But that
He be active duty was important.
It was important for the uniform.
It was important to not put it off.
It was important to speak clearly. It
Was important to set the phone down
Just right. It was important to put the
Hat on over the accelerant. It
Was important not to panic when the
Match didn't immediately light. It was
Important his last words be FREE
PALESTINE. It was important he die
An anarchist. It was that important.
—wendy trevino
posted by i like crows very much at 12:03 AM on March 6 [4 favorites]
Three links to share:
Guardian: Palestinian town of Jericho names street after US soldier who set himself on fire - Aaron Bushnell, who died last month, ‘sacrificed everything’ for Palestinians, says mayor of Jericho
Jericho named the street just a fortnight after Bushnell’s death. “We made a quick decision so we would be first,” Sidr said. They also named a square for South Africa after its government took Israel to the international court of justice, accusing it of genocide.
“These names will focus attention of both the locals and visitors,” Sidr said, adding that they were following a precedent set after the death of the activist Rachel Corrie. A street in Ramallah was named for the American after she was crushed to death by a bulldozer in 2003 while trying to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in Gaza.
Intercept: Will Aaron Bushnell’s Death Trigger Anarchism Witch Hunt? - Sen. Tom Cotton demands the Pentagon root out leftist extremism
While studies show that support for extremism is similar or even lower among veterans than the general population, extremism in the active-duty military has become an obsession of the Washington brass since January 6. Soon after taking office, new secretary of defense Austin, a retired Army general, directed the military to conduct an all-hands “stand down” to address extremism in the ranks, commissioning a number of panels and studies to evaluate white nationalism and neo-Nazi support among service members.
Outside of the Defense Department, the FBI is responsible for domestic counterterrorism. Since Israel’s war on Gaza began last October, it has been focused on any foreign blowback on the United States.
Unassigned Media (this is a news site run by a trans journalist):
Aaron or LillyAnarKitty? The Complicated Identity of Aaron Bushnell - An interview with a transgender writer and researcher who has looked closely into the online life of a U. S. serviceperson who self-immolated to protest the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on March 11 [7 favorites]
Guardian: Palestinian town of Jericho names street after US soldier who set himself on fire - Aaron Bushnell, who died last month, ‘sacrificed everything’ for Palestinians, says mayor of Jericho
Jericho named the street just a fortnight after Bushnell’s death. “We made a quick decision so we would be first,” Sidr said. They also named a square for South Africa after its government took Israel to the international court of justice, accusing it of genocide.
“These names will focus attention of both the locals and visitors,” Sidr said, adding that they were following a precedent set after the death of the activist Rachel Corrie. A street in Ramallah was named for the American after she was crushed to death by a bulldozer in 2003 while trying to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in Gaza.
Intercept: Will Aaron Bushnell’s Death Trigger Anarchism Witch Hunt? - Sen. Tom Cotton demands the Pentagon root out leftist extremism
While studies show that support for extremism is similar or even lower among veterans than the general population, extremism in the active-duty military has become an obsession of the Washington brass since January 6. Soon after taking office, new secretary of defense Austin, a retired Army general, directed the military to conduct an all-hands “stand down” to address extremism in the ranks, commissioning a number of panels and studies to evaluate white nationalism and neo-Nazi support among service members.
Outside of the Defense Department, the FBI is responsible for domestic counterterrorism. Since Israel’s war on Gaza began last October, it has been focused on any foreign blowback on the United States.
Unassigned Media (this is a news site run by a trans journalist):
Aaron or LillyAnarKitty? The Complicated Identity of Aaron Bushnell - An interview with a transgender writer and researcher who has looked closely into the online life of a U. S. serviceperson who self-immolated to protest the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on March 11 [7 favorites]
“Will Aaron Bushnell’s Death Trigger Anarchism Witch Hunt?,” Ken Klippenstein, The Intercept, 07 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 10:29 AM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:29 AM on March 11 [2 favorites]
I'd heard similar connections being drawn re: AnarKitty; but I wasn't about to raise it here on my own. Thanks for finding what reads to my untrained eye as a sensitive writeup on things.
I'd hate for that detail to get lost, even as I hope it doesn't get picked up by the worst of people.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:52 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
I'd hate for that detail to get lost, even as I hope it doesn't get picked up by the worst of people.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:52 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
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posted by praemunire at 8:48 AM on February 27 [16 favorites]