This is not humor. IT is all about breathing.
April 25, 2022 11:22 AM Subscribe
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posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by neon909 at 11:46 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by neon909 at 11:46 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
so awful. I wish his actions, his death, could mean more than a mere symbol, soon forgotten.
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posted by supermedusa at 11:50 AM on April 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
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posted by supermedusa at 11:50 AM on April 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
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posted by praemunire at 11:57 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 11:57 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by ocschwar at 11:58 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ocschwar at 11:58 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the history, Self-Immolation and the Politics of Desperation (2011 article). In the incredibly bleak, dystopian novel Mockingbird, from 1980, life has become so pointless that this act is no longer all that remarkable.
posted by Rash at 11:59 AM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Rash at 11:59 AM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
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posted by May Kasahara at 12:03 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by May Kasahara at 12:03 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Silvery Fish at 12:05 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Silvery Fish at 12:05 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Glinn at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Glinn at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by dusty potato at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by dusty potato at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Token Meme at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Token Meme at 12:15 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Foosnark at 12:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 12:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by little onion at 12:23 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by little onion at 12:23 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
. thank you, brother.
posted by eustatic at 12:25 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 12:25 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
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posted by The Great Big Mulp at 12:26 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 12:26 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I spent the weekend working with a university, some of whose faculty, students, and staff were keenly committed to addressing the climate crisis. They knew about this event.
There may well be more to come.
posted by doctornemo at 12:31 PM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
There may well be more to come.
posted by doctornemo at 12:31 PM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
horrifying - desperation in face of indifference
anger (activism), nihilism, or shopping seem the only viable responses now, i hope Wynn's self-sacrifice provokes more of the first
posted by unearthed at 12:36 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
anger (activism), nihilism, or shopping seem the only viable responses now, i hope Wynn's self-sacrifice provokes more of the first
posted by unearthed at 12:36 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
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posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:41 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:41 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by Jess the Mess at 12:49 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by Jess the Mess at 12:49 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by socialjusticeworrier at 1:01 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by socialjusticeworrier at 1:01 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 1:01 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 1:01 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by Lawn Beaver at 1:07 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by Lawn Beaver at 1:07 PM on April 25, 2022
This is a suicide, I wish journalists could responsible about this and consider general guidelines (link), or these guidelines.
I'm particularly frustrated with the connection between his activism and completing suicide, and it's irresponsible to suggest that this should bring attention or encourage policy makers to act on climate change.
posted by Braeburn at 1:08 PM on April 25, 2022 [40 favorites]
I'm particularly frustrated with the connection between his activism and completing suicide, and it's irresponsible to suggest that this should bring attention or encourage policy makers to act on climate change.
posted by Braeburn at 1:08 PM on April 25, 2022 [40 favorites]
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posted by signsofrain at 1:21 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by signsofrain at 1:21 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by Soap_and_Bathetic at 1:41 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by Soap_and_Bathetic at 1:41 PM on April 25, 2022
Everything about this is heartbreaking.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:45 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:45 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
There may well be more to come.
Wynn Alan Bruce, 50, was Buddhist. He was a photographer and a climate activist who ran a portrait studio in Boulder, Colorado. He admired Thich Nhat Hanh (Oct. 11, 1926 - Jan. 22, 2022), who had admired the Vietnamese monks who burned themselves to death in protest during the Vietnam War. (This Denver Post article has excerpts from the NYT, excerpts from Thich Nhat Hanh's letter to Dr. King about that political protest, and several quotes from one of Bruce's friends who is a Zen Buddhist priest.)
In 2018: David Stroh Buckel, 60, a NY civil-rights lawyer (senior counsel and marriage project director at Lambda Legal) and environmental activist, self-immolated in Prospect Park, Brooklyn as a protest against the use of fossil fuels. Shortly before the act, he "emailed a suicide note to multiple news media outlets, in which he wrote 'Most humans on the planet now breathe air made unhealthy by fossil fuels, and many die early deaths as a result—my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.'" [Wikipedia, and archived NYT links]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:50 PM on April 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
Wynn Alan Bruce, 50, was Buddhist. He was a photographer and a climate activist who ran a portrait studio in Boulder, Colorado. He admired Thich Nhat Hanh (Oct. 11, 1926 - Jan. 22, 2022), who had admired the Vietnamese monks who burned themselves to death in protest during the Vietnam War. (This Denver Post article has excerpts from the NYT, excerpts from Thich Nhat Hanh's letter to Dr. King about that political protest, and several quotes from one of Bruce's friends who is a Zen Buddhist priest.)
In 2018: David Stroh Buckel, 60, a NY civil-rights lawyer (senior counsel and marriage project director at Lambda Legal) and environmental activist, self-immolated in Prospect Park, Brooklyn as a protest against the use of fossil fuels. Shortly before the act, he "emailed a suicide note to multiple news media outlets, in which he wrote 'Most humans on the planet now breathe air made unhealthy by fossil fuels, and many die early deaths as a result—my early death by fossil fuel reflects what we are doing to ourselves.'" [Wikipedia, and archived NYT links]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:50 PM on April 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
So it goes.
Climate change has been progressing "faster than expected" for my entire life. I used to have hope that eventually something would be done by someone somewhere to take the threat seriously and make the changes necessary to avoid the worst. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. I've been waiting for decades. COVID showed me how naive this was.
Nothing will change. Nothing will improve. There is nothing you or I can do about it. The powers that be will not allow any diversion from the intended course, they cannot be forced to action, not while willful inaction is still profitable.
We are on a dying planet. Within my lifetime, we will experience: widespread famine; whole swaths of the planet rendered uninhabitable; millions of displaced refugees; mass extinction of plant and animal life; sea level rise; ocean acidification; the disappearance of glaciers, sea ice, and ice sheets; more frequent and increasingly extreme temperatures, floods, droughts, wildfires, hurricanes, tornados, and other extreme weather events.
And for what? Money? Power? Dopamine?
I can't fault him, though I wish he hadn't given up.
Make the most of your brief time here on Earth. Hug your loved ones. Seize the day. Do your best not to give in to despair, because really, this changes little. Humanity has existed for but a brief moment. None of us were ever getting out of here alive, and entropy will always win in the end. It doesn't make the experience of living life any less valid.
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posted by rustybullrake at 1:58 PM on April 25, 2022 [56 favorites]
Climate change has been progressing "faster than expected" for my entire life. I used to have hope that eventually something would be done by someone somewhere to take the threat seriously and make the changes necessary to avoid the worst. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. I've been waiting for decades. COVID showed me how naive this was.
Nothing will change. Nothing will improve. There is nothing you or I can do about it. The powers that be will not allow any diversion from the intended course, they cannot be forced to action, not while willful inaction is still profitable.
We are on a dying planet. Within my lifetime, we will experience: widespread famine; whole swaths of the planet rendered uninhabitable; millions of displaced refugees; mass extinction of plant and animal life; sea level rise; ocean acidification; the disappearance of glaciers, sea ice, and ice sheets; more frequent and increasingly extreme temperatures, floods, droughts, wildfires, hurricanes, tornados, and other extreme weather events.
And for what? Money? Power? Dopamine?
I can't fault him, though I wish he hadn't given up.
Make the most of your brief time here on Earth. Hug your loved ones. Seize the day. Do your best not to give in to despair, because really, this changes little. Humanity has existed for but a brief moment. None of us were ever getting out of here alive, and entropy will always win in the end. It doesn't make the experience of living life any less valid.
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posted by rustybullrake at 1:58 PM on April 25, 2022 [56 favorites]
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posted by oceanjesse at 2:02 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by oceanjesse at 2:02 PM on April 25, 2022
I guess it's the logical endpoint of climate doomerism. But it's worse than useless, IMO.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:08 PM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:08 PM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
"When there is nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."
posted by kirkaracha at 2:31 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 2:31 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a suicide, I wish journalists could responsible about this and consider general guidelines (link), or these guidelines.
I hear you, and in most cases I would agree with the guidelines you linked. I agree that romanticizing suicide is not a good thing.
However, following the linked guidelines, are you suggesting that journalists should report on a man self-immolating on the steps of the supreme court building specifically to draw attention to climate change inaction... without mentioning who he is, how he killed himself, where he killed himself, or why he killed himself?
To what end?
I'm particularly frustrated with the connection between his activism and completing suicide
The two are inextricable.
This was not your average suicide. This was an example of extreme protest and activism. I don't think those guidelines apply any more to the coverage of this man than they would to the coverage of Thich Quang Duc.
posted by rustybullrake at 2:34 PM on April 25, 2022 [49 favorites]
I hear you, and in most cases I would agree with the guidelines you linked. I agree that romanticizing suicide is not a good thing.
However, following the linked guidelines, are you suggesting that journalists should report on a man self-immolating on the steps of the supreme court building specifically to draw attention to climate change inaction... without mentioning who he is, how he killed himself, where he killed himself, or why he killed himself?
To what end?
I'm particularly frustrated with the connection between his activism and completing suicide
The two are inextricable.
This was not your average suicide. This was an example of extreme protest and activism. I don't think those guidelines apply any more to the coverage of this man than they would to the coverage of Thich Quang Duc.
posted by rustybullrake at 2:34 PM on April 25, 2022 [49 favorites]
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posted by spinifex23 at 2:41 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by spinifex23 at 2:41 PM on April 25, 2022
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posted by Reverend John at 3:02 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by Reverend John at 3:02 PM on April 25, 2022
I have not seen any photos of this. I'm surprised - I thought it would be breaking news. I bet the activist did, too.
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posted by rebent at 3:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
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posted by rebent at 3:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am a carbon biogeochemist who spends all day everyday teaching this stuff to students so that they can make the planet livable for themselves and their children, and I also love people with mental illness and am very opposed to glorification of suicide. I am very glad that this has gotten very little press, and I hope it stays that way.
Show pictures of the kids striking against climate change. Show the pictures of the scientists getting arrested for civil disobedience. Those are people actually working to make the world better. Setting yourself on fire will never make the world better, and romanticizing suicide will actively make the world worse.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:07 PM on April 25, 2022 [35 favorites]
Show pictures of the kids striking against climate change. Show the pictures of the scientists getting arrested for civil disobedience. Those are people actually working to make the world better. Setting yourself on fire will never make the world better, and romanticizing suicide will actively make the world worse.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:07 PM on April 25, 2022 [35 favorites]
An insistence on analyzing the sacrifice of one's own life only as the result of severe mental illness seems ideological in itself. There are a number of circumstances in which we admire and honor those who die for others. And for some reason we are able to understand that killing others for political reasons is not necessarily indicative of mental illness--we have a major world leader directing tens of thousands of people to do just that right now. Self-immolation is obviously extreme, and for some it probably would be just a form of suicide. But I don't think that's the only scenario.
posted by praemunire at 3:54 PM on April 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:54 PM on April 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
He didn't think of this action as a suicide. I think he thought of the supreme court as suicidal.
His final post from 28 March reads: “This is not humor. IT is all about breathing,” followed by: “Clean air matters.”
As a climate activist down in cancer alley, whose colleagues are regularly sick and dying from lungs wrecked by Exxon, CF Industries, Mosaic, Shell and all the rest of the companies changing the climate, I'm glad he was drawing the connections between air pollution, which kills many many people (but people in the untouchable castes, so they tend not to matter) and the death of the world.
Many people feel the burn of climate change in their lungs, but they tend to live in jurisdictions without political representation.
So I thank this man for his compassion.
posted by eustatic at 3:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
His final post from 28 March reads: “This is not humor. IT is all about breathing,” followed by: “Clean air matters.”
As a climate activist down in cancer alley, whose colleagues are regularly sick and dying from lungs wrecked by Exxon, CF Industries, Mosaic, Shell and all the rest of the companies changing the climate, I'm glad he was drawing the connections between air pollution, which kills many many people (but people in the untouchable castes, so they tend not to matter) and the death of the world.
Many people feel the burn of climate change in their lungs, but they tend to live in jurisdictions without political representation.
So I thank this man for his compassion.
posted by eustatic at 3:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
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This will not move the pace of climate remediation, but it may move others to deaths of despair.
I feel confident in the former at least, because it’s happened before—in 2018, in fact, another highly accomplished civil rights lawyer. Maybe they shared an explosive frustration at a problem that they, with all of their tools, could not fix.
God rest them both.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:59 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
This will not move the pace of climate remediation, but it may move others to deaths of despair.
I feel confident in the former at least, because it’s happened before—in 2018, in fact, another highly accomplished civil rights lawyer. Maybe they shared an explosive frustration at a problem that they, with all of their tools, could not fix.
God rest them both.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:59 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
The most shocking thing about this event to me is that I found out about it through maybe one or two tweets in my timeline, while my Google News summary page has had absolutely ZERO mention of it at all.
Like, people setting themselves on fire for a cause should be something that is drawn to national attention. But this... was just allowed to sail by and fade into obscurity. Just like the other two climate protest suicides mentioned in this thread.
I'm a total climate doomsayer, and if this event being given zero real press isn't just a reflection of the parody of Don't Look Up, I really don't know what else to say. People in the US don't give a fuck about climate change, and the country will do fuckall about it until it is so much more obviously too late than it is now that "reactionary" will become a swear word.
posted by hippybear at 4:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
Like, people setting themselves on fire for a cause should be something that is drawn to national attention. But this... was just allowed to sail by and fade into obscurity. Just like the other two climate protest suicides mentioned in this thread.
I'm a total climate doomsayer, and if this event being given zero real press isn't just a reflection of the parody of Don't Look Up, I really don't know what else to say. People in the US don't give a fuck about climate change, and the country will do fuckall about it until it is so much more obviously too late than it is now that "reactionary" will become a swear word.
posted by hippybear at 4:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
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posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:12 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:12 PM on April 25, 2022
hippybear: I believe it is journalistic practice to avoid copycat suicides, regardless of cause.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:16 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 4:16 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
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Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation led directly to the Arab Spring.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 4:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation led directly to the Arab Spring.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 4:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Note to activists: Don't do this.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 4:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
hippybear, I thought about posting what I did at the end of this comment here. I think EXTREMELY BAD THINGS would have to happen before anyone did something...and in this case it'd be too late.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:06 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:06 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Statement on Wynn Bruce, a Ecodharma community member by Buddhist leaders Rocky Mountain Ecodharma Retreat Center:
…posted by zamboni at 5:42 PM on April 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
We hope we can hear Wynn’s message without condoning his method.
The upcoming climate change debacle is not the same as Vietnam.
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But, a waste
posted by Windopaene at 6:13 PM on April 25, 2022
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But, a waste
posted by Windopaene at 6:13 PM on April 25, 2022
On the morning of November 6, 2003, during morning rush hour, a time of day when his act was seen by hundreds at least, perhaps thousands, Malachi Ritscher set himself on fire. Right next to one of the busiest parts of one of the busiest expressways in Chicago.
Because the fix was absolutely in, his act was ignored for at least a week. And no image was ever put up on any web-site, or in any paper.
I say the fix was in because I watched web-sites in cities across the nation as hundreds of thousands of us protested that mass murder orchestrated by Cheney, Rummy, the Bush clan, etc and etc. (I could list them but no need, we all know who they were, and who they still are, also.}
In each city, it was front page news in the city it was held in. Much smaller coverage in any other cities. When we marched in Austin it was absolutely front page news. I cannot remember how Houston covered it but nowhere near what should have been covered, massive protests in the state capital. And not much coverage of the massive protests in Houston, here in Austin.
And so it went, across the country, around the world.
It was very, very easy to follow on Redditt, in real time and in later reportage.
Self-immolation is the ultimate demonstration. But if it's not covered it seems as nothing, a wasted life, a wasted death.
Here is a list of political self-immolations. Not a lot of coverage of what is the largest act of protest which human beings are capable of.
Malachi Ritscher had immense courage. As did Wynn Alan Bruce.
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posted by dancestoblue at 6:27 PM on April 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
Because the fix was absolutely in, his act was ignored for at least a week. And no image was ever put up on any web-site, or in any paper.
I say the fix was in because I watched web-sites in cities across the nation as hundreds of thousands of us protested that mass murder orchestrated by Cheney, Rummy, the Bush clan, etc and etc. (I could list them but no need, we all know who they were, and who they still are, also.}
In each city, it was front page news in the city it was held in. Much smaller coverage in any other cities. When we marched in Austin it was absolutely front page news. I cannot remember how Houston covered it but nowhere near what should have been covered, massive protests in the state capital. And not much coverage of the massive protests in Houston, here in Austin.
And so it went, across the country, around the world.
It was very, very easy to follow on Redditt, in real time and in later reportage.
Self-immolation is the ultimate demonstration. But if it's not covered it seems as nothing, a wasted life, a wasted death.
Here is a list of political self-immolations. Not a lot of coverage of what is the largest act of protest which human beings are capable of.
Malachi Ritscher had immense courage. As did Wynn Alan Bruce.
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posted by dancestoblue at 6:27 PM on April 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
FYI, while most Americans now seem to believe that Thich Quang Duc, the monk who burned himself to death in 1963, was protesting the Vietnam War, his action was in fact in protest of persecution of Buddhists by the South Vietnamese government.
For further background, Wikipedia has a page on the Buddhist Crisis.
posted by FencingGal at 7:01 PM on April 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
For further background, Wikipedia has a page on the Buddhist Crisis.
posted by FencingGal at 7:01 PM on April 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
I need the likes of someone so willing to sacrifice so much for all of us to please stay with us here.
Please stay with us as we will need you in our judgement moving into tomorrow again and again.
And with that staying here with us then we can bare witness to what we have done as a community of humans.
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posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:10 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Please stay with us as we will need you in our judgement moving into tomorrow again and again.
And with that staying here with us then we can bare witness to what we have done as a community of humans.
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posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:10 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Guy lights himself on fire to protest against climate change complacency, and the comment section on the Independent article reporting this is immediately swamped by assholes cracking jokes about sustainable biofuels and whining about their opinions being censored.
Welcome to 2022, I guess.
posted by flabdablet at 7:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Welcome to 2022, I guess.
posted by flabdablet at 7:57 PM on April 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
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posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:11 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:11 PM on April 25, 2022
Thich Nhat Hanh , writing about non-violence, argued that Buddhist monks' self-immolations aren't suicides. But his understanding of suicide seems kind of ... naïve? Strawmanly?
The self-burning of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in 1963 is somehow difficult for the Western Christian conscience to understand. The Press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest.
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Suicide is an act of self-destruction, having as causes the following:
-lack of courage to live and to cope with difficulties
-defeat by life and loss of all hope
-desire for non-existence (abhava)
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What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance. There is nothing more painful than burning oneself. To say something while experiencing this kind of pain is to say it with the utmost of courage, frankness, determination and sincerity.
Earlier this year, someone in my town jumped off a parking deck, one block away from his ex-girlfriend's office. To be fair, we're a small city and it's hard to find a tall building with unrestricted access. But it was ... splashy. A high-suicide-risk friend of mine happened to be there, outside. So were other people. An email was sent out to literally thousands of people who walk past the parking deck every workday.
Suicide's goal isn't always death. Suicide-staging can be a dramatic form of expression. It calls attention to suffering. It may implicitly indict others as the cause of suffering. That doesn't automatically make it noble.
posted by feral_goldfish at 8:13 PM on April 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The self-burning of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in 1963 is somehow difficult for the Western Christian conscience to understand. The Press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest.
---
Suicide is an act of self-destruction, having as causes the following:
-lack of courage to live and to cope with difficulties
-defeat by life and loss of all hope
-desire for non-existence (abhava)
---
What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance. There is nothing more painful than burning oneself. To say something while experiencing this kind of pain is to say it with the utmost of courage, frankness, determination and sincerity.
Earlier this year, someone in my town jumped off a parking deck, one block away from his ex-girlfriend's office. To be fair, we're a small city and it's hard to find a tall building with unrestricted access. But it was ... splashy. A high-suicide-risk friend of mine happened to be there, outside. So were other people. An email was sent out to literally thousands of people who walk past the parking deck every workday.
Suicide's goal isn't always death. Suicide-staging can be a dramatic form of expression. It calls attention to suffering. It may implicitly indict others as the cause of suffering. That doesn't automatically make it noble.
posted by feral_goldfish at 8:13 PM on April 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
"The self-burning of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in 1963 is somehow difficult for the Western Christian conscience to understand."
To me, as a Christian-trained theologian, it is not difficult to understand at all. It is very clear to me the difference between suicide and martyrdom. Suicide, in Christian theology, is a rejection of the Holy Spirit and the salvation of Christ; it is the worst sin it is possible to commit, the sin of Despair, the only sin that cannot be forgiven, because it is a rejection of even the possibility of salvation. Whereas martyrdom is an absolute faith in the Holy Spirit and the salvation of Christ, to the point that one is willing to die because one knows salvation awaits.
And I'm not going to run around saying "WOOT MARTYRDOM" because there are literal heresies from the first five centuries of Christianity where Christians ran around the ancient Mediterranean acting like complete assholes attempting to provoke non-Christians into martyring them so they could die like Jesus/the apostles and go automatically to heaven, and early Church authorities were like "NO, STOP, THIS IS BAD, STOP DYING ON PURPOSE, BEING AN ASSHOLE IS NOT HOLY." Like, it's a super-thin line, and nothing good comes of encouraging people to martyrdom, and nobody should encourage that.
AND YET. There is a clear difference between someone who dies a martyr -- koine Greek μάρτυς, meaning "witness" or "testimony" -- and someone who dies by suicide in the total rejection of hope. This death is a μάρτυς, a witness, a testimony. A death in hope, not in despair.
And I DON'T think anybody should repeat it, because THE LINE IS VERY VERY THIN, and literally nobody should encourage anybody to martyrdom ever, for any reason. But we can recognize and honor martyrdom when it happens, and we can understand it as distinct from suicide.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [26 favorites]
To me, as a Christian-trained theologian, it is not difficult to understand at all. It is very clear to me the difference between suicide and martyrdom. Suicide, in Christian theology, is a rejection of the Holy Spirit and the salvation of Christ; it is the worst sin it is possible to commit, the sin of Despair, the only sin that cannot be forgiven, because it is a rejection of even the possibility of salvation. Whereas martyrdom is an absolute faith in the Holy Spirit and the salvation of Christ, to the point that one is willing to die because one knows salvation awaits.
And I'm not going to run around saying "WOOT MARTYRDOM" because there are literal heresies from the first five centuries of Christianity where Christians ran around the ancient Mediterranean acting like complete assholes attempting to provoke non-Christians into martyring them so they could die like Jesus/the apostles and go automatically to heaven, and early Church authorities were like "NO, STOP, THIS IS BAD, STOP DYING ON PURPOSE, BEING AN ASSHOLE IS NOT HOLY." Like, it's a super-thin line, and nothing good comes of encouraging people to martyrdom, and nobody should encourage that.
AND YET. There is a clear difference between someone who dies a martyr -- koine Greek μάρτυς, meaning "witness" or "testimony" -- and someone who dies by suicide in the total rejection of hope. This death is a μάρτυς, a witness, a testimony. A death in hope, not in despair.
And I DON'T think anybody should repeat it, because THE LINE IS VERY VERY THIN, and literally nobody should encourage anybody to martyrdom ever, for any reason. But we can recognize and honor martyrdom when it happens, and we can understand it as distinct from suicide.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [26 favorites]
I can’t bring myself to watch and don’t know if people knew ahead of time. But the kind of person who wouldn’t stop someone from doing this isn’t on anyone’s side. Martyrdom is still suicide.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:21 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by aspersioncast at 9:21 PM on April 25, 2022
Actual martyrs are killed by someone else.
Suicide is killing yourself.
Killing yourself by setting yourself on fire is most definitely suicide, and in no sense martyrdom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:22 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Suicide is killing yourself.
Killing yourself by setting yourself on fire is most definitely suicide, and in no sense martyrdom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:22 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Those paramedics had to rush his dying body to the hospital on a helicopter and see him gasp his last horrific breath. This seems narcissistic as hell, and completely uncaring of other human beings who would touch the terrible end of his life.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:50 PM on April 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 10:50 PM on April 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The consistent debate about suicide is: will me killing myself be a gesture that inspires a bunch of people to do what I'm doing vs. will me killing myself will affect some people (of importance || with leverage || with influence) to change their minds.
posted by bendy at 11:18 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 11:18 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
This seems narcissistic as hell, and completely uncaring of other human beings who would touch the terrible end of his life.
The executives of Exxon are indifferent to the entire world's-worth of other human beings. Those paramedics signed up to help people in distress.
I would never encourage a person to self-immolate, and I would attempt to dissuade anyone who told me they were planning to. Because I don't think it accomplishes enough to be worth the horrifying cost. But it's interesting to me to see how many people can't even imagine something being worth dying for, to the extent they have to frame it as a different sort of act entirely. I'd like to live in a world where it's unthinkable that anyone should ever have to die for an idea; curious how many think we're already there.
posted by praemunire at 11:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
The executives of Exxon are indifferent to the entire world's-worth of other human beings. Those paramedics signed up to help people in distress.
I would never encourage a person to self-immolate, and I would attempt to dissuade anyone who told me they were planning to. Because I don't think it accomplishes enough to be worth the horrifying cost. But it's interesting to me to see how many people can't even imagine something being worth dying for, to the extent they have to frame it as a different sort of act entirely. I'd like to live in a world where it's unthinkable that anyone should ever have to die for an idea; curious how many think we're already there.
posted by praemunire at 11:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
Actual martyrs are killed by someone else.
Suicide is killing yourself.
For the record, many many Christian martyrs, at least as described in their narratives, took their actions knowing that death would be the result. Many of them also rejected an opportunity to recant and be spared. It's no use being simplistic about these things.
posted by praemunire at 11:26 PM on April 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
Suicide is killing yourself.
For the record, many many Christian martyrs, at least as described in their narratives, took their actions knowing that death would be the result. Many of them also rejected an opportunity to recant and be spared. It's no use being simplistic about these things.
posted by praemunire at 11:26 PM on April 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
I first learned about self-immolation in my first month at UMass Amherst when Gregory Levey set himself on fire on the town common. He didn't leave any particular reason or message to explain it. It's a really personal and destructive protest obviously but there's still a message - though it may be completely unknown.
posted by bendy at 11:31 PM on April 25, 2022
posted by bendy at 11:31 PM on April 25, 2022
We need to plant trees. A lot of them. It may not be too late.
posted by zardoz at 11:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 11:41 PM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't think it accomplishes enough to be worth the horrifying cost.
From the Wikipedia article that FencingGal linked above:
People capable of feeling saddened by desperate acts like self-immolation are those of us who have not completely abandoned basic decency in pursuit of Mammon and/or to prop up our own frankly pathetic and transparently fragile self-images. We are, unfortunately, not the people who need to be moved.
There are people in positions of power right now who could, if they chose, immediately stop global warming from getting worse than it is. Could, if they chose, move very rapidly to shut down extraction of fossil carbon worldwide, and cut over the businesses involved to making their money off sustainable alternatives instead. They're not doing that; instead, they're chaffing the public discourse on climate with as much disinformation as can possibly be arranged. Not because they genuinely don't understand the consequences of ongoing fossil carbon extraction, but because they just don't give a shit. They can't be arsed changing how they do business because they see themselves as sufficiently insulated from all of those consequences and everybody who isn't them as essentially disposable. They'd rather just keep on making the ridiculous returns they already make in the same ridiculous ways they're already making them, supplying the rest of us with our gasoline and matches.
So yeah. Don't set yourself on fire to keep those fuckers warm.
posted by flabdablet at 3:17 AM on April 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
From the Wikipedia article that FencingGal linked above:
On June 11, Buddhist monk Thích Quảng Đức burned himself to death at a busy Saigon road intersection in protest against Diệm's policies.Because that's the thing about authoritarians in positions of power: they just don't give a shit any more. If they were the kind of people who did give a shit, they would never have engineered their way into holding as much unaccountable power over others as they do.
In response to Buddhist self-immolation as a form of protest, Madame Nhu—the de facto First Lady of South Vietnam at the time (and the wife of Ngô Đình Nhu, who was the brother and chief advisor to Diệm)—said "Let them burn and we shall clap our hands", and "if the Buddhists wish to have another barbecue, I will be glad to supply the gasoline and a match."
People capable of feeling saddened by desperate acts like self-immolation are those of us who have not completely abandoned basic decency in pursuit of Mammon and/or to prop up our own frankly pathetic and transparently fragile self-images. We are, unfortunately, not the people who need to be moved.
There are people in positions of power right now who could, if they chose, immediately stop global warming from getting worse than it is. Could, if they chose, move very rapidly to shut down extraction of fossil carbon worldwide, and cut over the businesses involved to making their money off sustainable alternatives instead. They're not doing that; instead, they're chaffing the public discourse on climate with as much disinformation as can possibly be arranged. Not because they genuinely don't understand the consequences of ongoing fossil carbon extraction, but because they just don't give a shit. They can't be arsed changing how they do business because they see themselves as sufficiently insulated from all of those consequences and everybody who isn't them as essentially disposable. They'd rather just keep on making the ridiculous returns they already make in the same ridiculous ways they're already making them, supplying the rest of us with our gasoline and matches.
So yeah. Don't set yourself on fire to keep those fuckers warm.
posted by flabdablet at 3:17 AM on April 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
A world in which burning yourself to death is an effective way to get people to pay more attention to a cause you care about would be even more grim than this one.
I do not believe that the media making this the top story of the day, or even the week, would be likely to result in significant action on climate change.
I'm not sure publicizing this man's death would be a good thing to do even if you thought there was some chance that it would lead to significant action on climate change. But given how unlikely that seems, I think paying lots of attention to this is a bad thing to do.
posted by straight at 3:23 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I do not believe that the media making this the top story of the day, or even the week, would be likely to result in significant action on climate change.
I'm not sure publicizing this man's death would be a good thing to do even if you thought there was some chance that it would lead to significant action on climate change. But given how unlikely that seems, I think paying lots of attention to this is a bad thing to do.
posted by straight at 3:23 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
.
posted by tarantula at 4:19 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tarantula at 4:19 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
how many people can't even imagine something being worth dying for
I can imagine such a thing just fine. Are you arguing that that’s what happened here? ‘Cause I’d argue that in addition to being an awful waste of a life it only hurts the cause it was seeking to amplify.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:58 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can imagine such a thing just fine. Are you arguing that that’s what happened here? ‘Cause I’d argue that in addition to being an awful waste of a life it only hurts the cause it was seeking to amplify.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:58 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Malachi Ritscher had immense courage. As did Wynn Alan Bruce.
Quoted for truth.
.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:12 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Quoted for truth.
.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:12 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
This was an incredibly courageous act. I do not work in or study suicide prevention, have not had SI for some time, but self-immolation feels qualitatively different from other suicides. The sheer pain of the experience tells you that it is not just about ending a life, which could be done with much less costly means.
I think the risk of copycat self-immolations is negligible. Unfortunately, I also think that it will not move the as-yet-unmoved, and so it may have been a miscalculation.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:03 AM on April 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think the risk of copycat self-immolations is negligible. Unfortunately, I also think that it will not move the as-yet-unmoved, and so it may have been a miscalculation.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:03 AM on April 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
We are, unfortunately, not the people who need to be moved.
I take your point, but the political model of "people care vs. people don't care" is too crude. Most people who go to protests aren't the ones who need to be moved, either.
There is something in human beings that naturally cries out against such a terrible loss of life. I feel it, too. It's a healthy and humane impulse! But I think it can produce motivated reasoning on the subject.
Are you arguing that that’s what happened here?
Yes. What else?
it only hurts the cause it was seeking to amplify.
There's a kind of auto-contrarianism (no doubt resulting from the lazy adoption of it by writers of a certain school in this century) which proceeds largely by assertion but doesn't really demonstrate much.
A world in which burning yourself to death is an effective way to get people to pay more attention to a cause you care about would be even more grim than this one.
Does the name Bobby Sands mean anything to you?
posted by praemunire at 7:23 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I take your point, but the political model of "people care vs. people don't care" is too crude. Most people who go to protests aren't the ones who need to be moved, either.
There is something in human beings that naturally cries out against such a terrible loss of life. I feel it, too. It's a healthy and humane impulse! But I think it can produce motivated reasoning on the subject.
Are you arguing that that’s what happened here?
Yes. What else?
it only hurts the cause it was seeking to amplify.
There's a kind of auto-contrarianism (no doubt resulting from the lazy adoption of it by writers of a certain school in this century) which proceeds largely by assertion but doesn't really demonstrate much.
A world in which burning yourself to death is an effective way to get people to pay more attention to a cause you care about would be even more grim than this one.
Does the name Bobby Sands mean anything to you?
posted by praemunire at 7:23 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
Self-immolation comes up in Buddhism in a number of places. It was taught to me as allegorical, and I have always thought of it that way. There is a lot more in Wynn's decision than just inspiration from Vietnamese monks. Tricycle has a short article on it (Limited number of articles).
posted by Quonab at 8:16 AM on April 26, 2022
posted by Quonab at 8:16 AM on April 26, 2022
For the record, many many Christian martyrs, at least as described in their narratives, took their actions knowing that death would be the result. Many of them also rejected an opportunity to recant and be spared. It's no use being simplistic about these things.
I can't think of many Christan martyrs who killed themselves. There's a significant difference between acting knowing it'll result in an execution, and beating them to the punch.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:29 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can't think of many Christan martyrs who killed themselves. There's a significant difference between acting knowing it'll result in an execution, and beating them to the punch.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:29 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
But his understanding of suicide seems kind of ... naïve? Strawmanly?
Maybe it would be prudent to abstain from such derogatory characterisations of a culture other than your own?
When you get told 'You don't understand where I'm coming from', the best thing to do is NOT to turn around and proceed misunderstanding even harder.
posted by doggod at 9:34 AM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maybe it would be prudent to abstain from such derogatory characterisations of a culture other than your own?
When you get told 'You don't understand where I'm coming from', the best thing to do is NOT to turn around and proceed misunderstanding even harder.
posted by doggod at 9:34 AM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
There's a significant difference between acting knowing it'll result in an execution, and beating them to the punch.
Why? Why is Antigone heroic and this guy merely mentally ill? Why is Thomas More a saint?
posted by praemunire at 9:48 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why? Why is Antigone heroic and this guy merely mentally ill? Why is Thomas More a saint?
posted by praemunire at 9:48 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
If this guy had set someone else on fire (consensually) for the exact same reason, nobody here would be arguing that it's not murder. Nobody here would be splitting hairs talking about martyrdom or the holy spirit or sainthood. Nobody would think it's an outrage for reporters to talk about it as murder, without giving sufficient deference to the murderer's ~reasons~ and ~manifesto~.
Why? Because you all agree that murder is always a tragedy, no matter how consensual, no matter what the reasons.
Debate exists on this thread only because of people who don't think suicide is always a tragedy, because of people who think suicide is fine sometimes. You may not realize that's what you believe but the proof is in the argument you're making. Please reconsider. Please don't glamorize and romanticize suicide.
.
posted by MiraK at 10:50 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why? Because you all agree that murder is always a tragedy, no matter how consensual, no matter what the reasons.
Debate exists on this thread only because of people who don't think suicide is always a tragedy, because of people who think suicide is fine sometimes. You may not realize that's what you believe but the proof is in the argument you're making. Please reconsider. Please don't glamorize and romanticize suicide.
.
posted by MiraK at 10:50 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why is Antigone heroic and this guy merely mentally ill? Why is Thomas More a saint?
So you really don't see a difference between doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death, and doing something that will end your life when there is no threat of death?
Also, with both More and Antigone, a belief in an afterlife becomes part of the equation. More would have believed that he was saving his eternal soul by accepting death. That would have been more important to him than saving his earthly life, which I think is hard for us to understand. (I'm a little less clear on what not burying Polynices would mean for his soul, but my understanding is that Antigone buried him because of religious duty.)
So I think in the case of Thomas More and Antigone, they would not have considered their actions symbolic. I'm trying to think of people considered martyrs that would have seen their actions as symbolic and coming up short. Oscar Romero probably knew he was likely to die for speaking up, but if he hadn't died, he would have almost certainly continued to work on behalf of the poor. Once you set yourself on fire, you can't work for what you think is right anymore.
posted by FencingGal at 10:52 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
So you really don't see a difference between doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death, and doing something that will end your life when there is no threat of death?
Also, with both More and Antigone, a belief in an afterlife becomes part of the equation. More would have believed that he was saving his eternal soul by accepting death. That would have been more important to him than saving his earthly life, which I think is hard for us to understand. (I'm a little less clear on what not burying Polynices would mean for his soul, but my understanding is that Antigone buried him because of religious duty.)
So I think in the case of Thomas More and Antigone, they would not have considered their actions symbolic. I'm trying to think of people considered martyrs that would have seen their actions as symbolic and coming up short. Oscar Romero probably knew he was likely to die for speaking up, but if he hadn't died, he would have almost certainly continued to work on behalf of the poor. Once you set yourself on fire, you can't work for what you think is right anymore.
posted by FencingGal at 10:52 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
You know, Gandhi is possibly the closest we have to a modern day activist saint who used suicide as a political weapon to advance his cause quite effectively.
But crucially, he used the threat of suicide, not ... actual suicide. He didn't actually kill himself as part of his political activism. He didn't, for instance, shoot himself or choose some other method of suicide which is too quick to allow time for opponents to accede to his demands.
And, oh yeah, he actually had demands that he was making him his opponents, concrete and well defined demands that his opponents were capable of acceding to. And his tactics were suited to his era and his particular opponents: a fast unto death would never work against Ghengiz Khan, but it did work against a different conquering colonial power. And also he was always always always careful to turn his fasts into media spectacle, always always always sucked up to reporters and journalists who showed up when he called and turned his fasts into politically powerful melodrama, just as he wanted.
THAT is how real activists leverage the threat of suicide to achieve political ends.
This? This was nothing but a tragedy. 100% pure loss. To call this activism is insane, it confuses climate activism for a death cult.
posted by MiraK at 11:01 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
But crucially, he used the threat of suicide, not ... actual suicide. He didn't actually kill himself as part of his political activism. He didn't, for instance, shoot himself or choose some other method of suicide which is too quick to allow time for opponents to accede to his demands.
And, oh yeah, he actually had demands that he was making him his opponents, concrete and well defined demands that his opponents were capable of acceding to. And his tactics were suited to his era and his particular opponents: a fast unto death would never work against Ghengiz Khan, but it did work against a different conquering colonial power. And also he was always always always careful to turn his fasts into media spectacle, always always always sucked up to reporters and journalists who showed up when he called and turned his fasts into politically powerful melodrama, just as he wanted.
THAT is how real activists leverage the threat of suicide to achieve political ends.
This? This was nothing but a tragedy. 100% pure loss. To call this activism is insane, it confuses climate activism for a death cult.
posted by MiraK at 11:01 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
So you really don't see a difference between doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death, and doing something that will end your life when there is no threat of death?
Wait, is there supposed to be a difference? It sounds like it's both "doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death", with an addendum to put a finger on the scale.
I think the tragedy here is that Bruce felt this was the best/only option to be heard. But the answer there is hearing the message & taking the requisite societal actions before it gets to that point, not waiting until the conclusion.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wait, is there supposed to be a difference? It sounds like it's both "doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death", with an addendum to put a finger on the scale.
I think the tragedy here is that Bruce felt this was the best/only option to be heard. But the answer there is hearing the message & taking the requisite societal actions before it gets to that point, not waiting until the conclusion.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Wait, is there supposed to be a difference?
Of course there is. Civil rights activists in America sat in the front of the bus and at lunch counters they were banned from. Could they have been jailed or even killed for doing it? Yes. They knew that and they accepted that risk. But they did what they believed should be within their rights. They didn't set themselves on fire. For fuck's sake.
> I think the tragedy here is that Bruce felt this was the best/only option to be heard.
Suicidal people are not known for their clear & strategic thinking abilities. But at least they have the excuse of mental illness for their shoddy reasoning: the rest of us don't. We should know better. We should know that setting oneself on fire, especially when one is not famous or powerful or capable of attracting a shitton of media coverage to the event, and super especially when one has no concrete demands from their opponent, is a ludicrous and terrible method of "activism".
posted by MiraK at 11:11 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Of course there is. Civil rights activists in America sat in the front of the bus and at lunch counters they were banned from. Could they have been jailed or even killed for doing it? Yes. They knew that and they accepted that risk. But they did what they believed should be within their rights. They didn't set themselves on fire. For fuck's sake.
> I think the tragedy here is that Bruce felt this was the best/only option to be heard.
Suicidal people are not known for their clear & strategic thinking abilities. But at least they have the excuse of mental illness for their shoddy reasoning: the rest of us don't. We should know better. We should know that setting oneself on fire, especially when one is not famous or powerful or capable of attracting a shitton of media coverage to the event, and super especially when one has no concrete demands from their opponent, is a ludicrous and terrible method of "activism".
posted by MiraK at 11:11 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Does the name Bobby Sands mean anything to you?
As MiraK says about Ghandi, Sands used the threat of his own death as an attempt to coerce specific decision makers to do specific things. "Treat prisoners more humanely in these five ways or I will die in a way that will strengthen political opposition to you."
posted by straight at 11:11 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
As MiraK says about Ghandi, Sands used the threat of his own death as an attempt to coerce specific decision makers to do specific things. "Treat prisoners more humanely in these five ways or I will die in a way that will strengthen political opposition to you."
posted by straight at 11:11 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
So you really don't see a difference between doing something because you believe it is right, knowing it will result in your death, and doing something that will end your life when there is no threat of death?
Presumably this guy believed that the actual extinction of our species on a relatively short time frame--or at the very least the transformation of our planet into a hellscape where human life is largely misery--due to climate change and its knock-on effects is a real and present threat (whether or not he himself would die of it directly), that he was morally obliged to try to stop it at whatever cost, and that his self-immolation was the greatest contribution he could make to stopping it. That may or may not have been correct, but it is absolutely "doing something because you believe it is right."
On the more abstract level, if you think it is wrong to choose death without compulsion, then it must be wrong to take a voluntary action that will ensure your death, whether that death comes at your own hands or at the hands of someone else.
If this guy had set someone else on fire (consensually) for the exact same reason, nobody here would be arguing that it's not murder.
If you can guarantee the consensuality (which in real life turns out to be an extremely difficult thing to do), I certainly would.
Worth noting that we absolutely valorize certain people who set other people on fire nonconsensually and for self-interested reasons. We pin medals on them. We put up statues to them. We thank them for their service.
You know, Gandhi is possibly the closest we have to a modern day activist saint who used suicide as a political weapon to advance his cause quite effectively.
But crucially, he used the threat of suicide, not ... actual suicide.
There is a whole history of hunger striking in the twentieth century that you appear to be skipping over. Again, do people not know who Bobby Sands and the rest of the H-block strikers were?
The reason not to "glamorize suicide" is not to encourage troubled people to choose it as a means of escaping what seems like (and, for some, may be) unbearable personal suffering by choosing death for its own sake. This is a sound and compelling reason, but it does not mandate silence on every death by one's own hand, and, as a concern, it does not outweigh all others.
posted by praemunire at 11:17 AM on April 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Presumably this guy believed that the actual extinction of our species on a relatively short time frame--or at the very least the transformation of our planet into a hellscape where human life is largely misery--due to climate change and its knock-on effects is a real and present threat (whether or not he himself would die of it directly), that he was morally obliged to try to stop it at whatever cost, and that his self-immolation was the greatest contribution he could make to stopping it. That may or may not have been correct, but it is absolutely "doing something because you believe it is right."
On the more abstract level, if you think it is wrong to choose death without compulsion, then it must be wrong to take a voluntary action that will ensure your death, whether that death comes at your own hands or at the hands of someone else.
If this guy had set someone else on fire (consensually) for the exact same reason, nobody here would be arguing that it's not murder.
If you can guarantee the consensuality (which in real life turns out to be an extremely difficult thing to do), I certainly would.
Worth noting that we absolutely valorize certain people who set other people on fire nonconsensually and for self-interested reasons. We pin medals on them. We put up statues to them. We thank them for their service.
You know, Gandhi is possibly the closest we have to a modern day activist saint who used suicide as a political weapon to advance his cause quite effectively.
But crucially, he used the threat of suicide, not ... actual suicide.
There is a whole history of hunger striking in the twentieth century that you appear to be skipping over. Again, do people not know who Bobby Sands and the rest of the H-block strikers were?
The reason not to "glamorize suicide" is not to encourage troubled people to choose it as a means of escaping what seems like (and, for some, may be) unbearable personal suffering by choosing death for its own sake. This is a sound and compelling reason, but it does not mandate silence on every death by one's own hand, and, as a concern, it does not outweigh all others.
posted by praemunire at 11:17 AM on April 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
praemunire, this man set himself on fire and died within minutes. He didn't go on a hunger strike, make concrete demands, and give his opponents a chance to accede. There's a big difference, and that difference is the difference between suicide and activism.
posted by MiraK at 11:21 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 11:21 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
As MiraK says about Ghandi, Sands used the threat of his own death as an attempt to coerce specific decision makers to do specific things. "Treat prisoners more humanely in these five ways or I will die in a way that will strengthen political opposition to you."
So this would've been okay if he'd published a lengthy manifesto in advance? And then threatened to do it in advance, publicly? I don't think there's any real doubt here that this guy intended his death to bring about what he saw as absolutely vital political change. Do I think Sands's approach is more likely to be successful? Yes--although he still died a horrible horrible death. This is why I can imagine at least some, narrow circumstances in which I would support someone engaging in a hunger strike and can't really for someone planning to self-immolate. But the intent is still the same.
The hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay--we didn't even hear about them at the time (and in fact, we can't be sure they aren't still going on!!!). And the US government did not give a shit. Were they wrong?
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
So this would've been okay if he'd published a lengthy manifesto in advance? And then threatened to do it in advance, publicly? I don't think there's any real doubt here that this guy intended his death to bring about what he saw as absolutely vital political change. Do I think Sands's approach is more likely to be successful? Yes--although he still died a horrible horrible death. This is why I can imagine at least some, narrow circumstances in which I would support someone engaging in a hunger strike and can't really for someone planning to self-immolate. But the intent is still the same.
The hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay--we didn't even hear about them at the time (and in fact, we can't be sure they aren't still going on!!!). And the US government did not give a shit. Were they wrong?
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on April 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's a significant difference between acting knowing it'll result in an execution, and beating them to the punch.
I mean, they do call it “suicide by cop.”
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:27 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, they do call it “suicide by cop.”
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:27 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
praemunire, this man set himself on fire and died within minutes. He didn't go on a hunger strike. There's a big difference.
People keep telling me there's a big difference by pointing at the facts, but so far I am unable to discern any way in which the facts meaningfully change the underlying principle (unless the underlying principle is "God forbids this specific action", and even that has, historically, led to a lot of motivated waffling on the part of a lot of theologians). Faced with the flames and the smell and the sight of charred human flesh, we are naturally horrified at what this guy did; we recoil from it. It's important that we do. A burned human corpse is an appalling thing. Any lost human life is a tragedy. As political activists, we may say (the vast majority would) that no self-immolation can achieve anything worth that cost. As inhabitants of the planet and sharers in its fate, we may even say that his end itself was wrong. But it is extremely hard to distinguish in principle what he did from others' deliberate sacrifices of their own lives for what they see as a higher principle.
I feel like I'm having to review some ancient, well-known, and contentious philosophical and moral arguments as if they were self-evident and well-settled, and probably I'm not the best person to do that for an adult audience, so I think I'll step back now.
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
People keep telling me there's a big difference by pointing at the facts, but so far I am unable to discern any way in which the facts meaningfully change the underlying principle (unless the underlying principle is "God forbids this specific action", and even that has, historically, led to a lot of motivated waffling on the part of a lot of theologians). Faced with the flames and the smell and the sight of charred human flesh, we are naturally horrified at what this guy did; we recoil from it. It's important that we do. A burned human corpse is an appalling thing. Any lost human life is a tragedy. As political activists, we may say (the vast majority would) that no self-immolation can achieve anything worth that cost. As inhabitants of the planet and sharers in its fate, we may even say that his end itself was wrong. But it is extremely hard to distinguish in principle what he did from others' deliberate sacrifices of their own lives for what they see as a higher principle.
I feel like I'm having to review some ancient, well-known, and contentious philosophical and moral arguments as if they were self-evident and well-settled, and probably I'm not the best person to do that for an adult audience, so I think I'll step back now.
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on April 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
> The hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay--Were they wrong?
Even though they were confined in Gitmo, i.e. they had FAR fewer options and FAR less freedom to act than this guy, the hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay still didn't set themselves on fire or commit suicide-by-cop or whatever blink-and-you-miss-it method of death. They had/have concrete demands. Even in their fantastically limited capacity they got media coverage for their activism. It's insulting to compare this suicidal man to them.
> Faced with the flames and the smell and the sight of charred human flesh, we are naturally horrified at what this guy did; we recoil from it.
I think the difference you're missing is that activism is strategic. The disinclination to call this "activism" is not because we recoil from it, not even because it's a tragedy. It's because it was really quite useless, badly planned, haphazard, inarticulate, and doomed to failure from the start. Desperation and flailing is not the same as activism, and we would be wise to insist on this difference.
posted by MiraK at 11:30 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even though they were confined in Gitmo, i.e. they had FAR fewer options and FAR less freedom to act than this guy, the hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay still didn't set themselves on fire or commit suicide-by-cop or whatever blink-and-you-miss-it method of death. They had/have concrete demands. Even in their fantastically limited capacity they got media coverage for their activism. It's insulting to compare this suicidal man to them.
> Faced with the flames and the smell and the sight of charred human flesh, we are naturally horrified at what this guy did; we recoil from it.
I think the difference you're missing is that activism is strategic. The disinclination to call this "activism" is not because we recoil from it, not even because it's a tragedy. It's because it was really quite useless, badly planned, haphazard, inarticulate, and doomed to failure from the start. Desperation and flailing is not the same as activism, and we would be wise to insist on this difference.
posted by MiraK at 11:30 AM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
On the more abstract level, if you think it is wrong to choose death without compulsion, then it must be wrong to take a voluntary action that will ensure your death, whether that death comes at your own hands or at the hands of someone else.
I disagree. I can believe that it's wrong to choose death without compulsion, but also believe that some things are worse than choosing death without compulsion.
If someone puts a gun to my head and says he will kill me if I don't murder a child, I can decide that while it's wrong for me to choose to die, choosing to murder a child is worse.
posted by FencingGal at 11:33 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I disagree. I can believe that it's wrong to choose death without compulsion, but also believe that some things are worse than choosing death without compulsion.
If someone puts a gun to my head and says he will kill me if I don't murder a child, I can decide that while it's wrong for me to choose to die, choosing to murder a child is worse.
posted by FencingGal at 11:33 AM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Even in their fantastically limited capacity they got media coverage for their activism.
OK--just one point of fact, and then I'll shut up. As far as we know, the hunger strikes began in 2002. They were not made public until 2005. For about three years, no media coverage (and we may be in that situation again now). If you think media coverage makes the difference, then those three years should matter. And the reason none of them have died is that our government stuck/maybe still sticks tubes down their throats to force-feed them so they won't. Not because they have achieved their ends, or because all of them have voluntarily given up.
posted by praemunire at 11:37 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
OK--just one point of fact, and then I'll shut up. As far as we know, the hunger strikes began in 2002. They were not made public until 2005. For about three years, no media coverage (and we may be in that situation again now). If you think media coverage makes the difference, then those three years should matter. And the reason none of them have died is that our government stuck/maybe still sticks tubes down their throats to force-feed them so they won't. Not because they have achieved their ends, or because all of them have voluntarily given up.
posted by praemunire at 11:37 AM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, sure, if you want to nitpick that single least-significant point from the midst of everything else... I agree with you that the hunger strikers in Guantanamo Bay have been forcibly silenced, and that does not make them any less valid as activists. I don't see how this is supposed to persuade anyone that what Bruce did was something we should be recognizing and honoring as activism, though. To me it seems blindingly obvious that he is the textbook example of how not to do activism.
posted by MiraK at 11:43 AM on April 26, 2022
posted by MiraK at 11:43 AM on April 26, 2022
Debate exists on this thread only because of people who don't think suicide is always a tragedy, because of people who think suicide is fine sometimes. You may not realize that's what you believe but the proof is in the argument you're making. Please reconsider. Please don't glamorize and romanticize suicide.
This may correctly diagnose the thread. I don't believe that suicide is always a tragedy- or to be more clear, I don't think it's always, without exception, a worse tragedy than not-suicide. For example, if Terry Pratchett had died at the time of his choosing, I think that would have been a perfectly valid choice for him to have made, and no greater tragedy than what Alzheimer's was already doing to him.
I am not sure exactly how to safely discuss this disagreement. Because I do think that in the majority of cases, the prevention of suicide is a good and righteous thing, and I don't want to give anyone a nudge, however slight, towards that act.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:32 PM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
This may correctly diagnose the thread. I don't believe that suicide is always a tragedy- or to be more clear, I don't think it's always, without exception, a worse tragedy than not-suicide. For example, if Terry Pratchett had died at the time of his choosing, I think that would have been a perfectly valid choice for him to have made, and no greater tragedy than what Alzheimer's was already doing to him.
I am not sure exactly how to safely discuss this disagreement. Because I do think that in the majority of cases, the prevention of suicide is a good and righteous thing, and I don't want to give anyone a nudge, however slight, towards that act.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:32 PM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
For the record, many many Christian martyrs, at least as described in their narratives, took their actions knowing that death would be the result. Many of them also rejected an opportunity to recant and be spared. It's no use being simplistic about these things.
My response is to repeat what I said before:
Actual martyrs are killed by someone else.
Suicide is killing yourself.
The distinction is quite clear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
My response is to repeat what I said before:
Actual martyrs are killed by someone else.
Suicide is killing yourself.
The distinction is quite clear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wynn Alan Bruce publicly and painfully ended his own life in a final desperate statement to draw attention to the ongoing deliberate refusal to stop human-induced climate change—which will result in the deaths of untold millions of innocent people—and folks are popping monocles and clutching pearls and admonishing him for being a waste, for being useless, for being a narcissist, for hurting the cause.
No true activist would do what he did.
If only he had gone about it properly. If only he had merely threatened suicide, or held up a sign, or some other means of shouting into the void that didn't offend my sensibilities or disturb my white knuckle grip on the status quo.
Surely that would have made all the difference?
posted by rustybullrake at 2:09 PM on April 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
No true activist would do what he did.
If only he had gone about it properly. If only he had merely threatened suicide, or held up a sign, or some other means of shouting into the void that didn't offend my sensibilities or disturb my white knuckle grip on the status quo.
Surely that would have made all the difference?
posted by rustybullrake at 2:09 PM on April 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
He could have just waited for COP 28 to solve the problem. Or a new and improved plastic straw? Three more trees surely would do it.
Immolation o f the innocent? How impolite! Doesn't he know that's the job - no, the monopoly - of the people we pay and train and praise in the government?
Self-immolation, to get attention in the attention economy? We didn't act after Sandy-Hook, Las Vegas, etc. we don't even notice the daily mass-shootings now. He should have exposed his nipple at the super-bowl, or slapped Chris Rock. Those events got more air-time then all US politicians talking about climate change combined since the start of televised news in the 1940s.
Besides, public opinion is irrelevant to the military industrial complex. No matter how much awareness and support the public has, we can not tax them, we can not make them follow laws, we can not make them not kill us.
Suicide is wrong, it hurts families/friends, and society has an interest in stopping it. Your families and friends prefer your long-term pointless suffering and demand that you engage in low-success, high side-effect ineffective treatments. You are their emotional pets. Their vicarious discomfort is more important than your perpetual suffering.
Also society can’t let anyone think there is an escape from the dystopia we have created. You don’t own your body or your life, that is property of your government and the resource of your employer and your consumer demand is an economic asset. The machine needs it's cogs if it is going to complete the optimization of turning a living planet into a dead pile of wealth tokens. Your life is not your property. You do not have permission to die.
Dawkin's Law: any sufficiently genuine religious belief is indistinguishable from mental illness?
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 2:34 PM on April 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Immolation o f the innocent? How impolite! Doesn't he know that's the job - no, the monopoly - of the people we pay and train and praise in the government?
Self-immolation, to get attention in the attention economy? We didn't act after Sandy-Hook, Las Vegas, etc. we don't even notice the daily mass-shootings now. He should have exposed his nipple at the super-bowl, or slapped Chris Rock. Those events got more air-time then all US politicians talking about climate change combined since the start of televised news in the 1940s.
Besides, public opinion is irrelevant to the military industrial complex. No matter how much awareness and support the public has, we can not tax them, we can not make them follow laws, we can not make them not kill us.
Suicide is wrong, it hurts families/friends, and society has an interest in stopping it. Your families and friends prefer your long-term pointless suffering and demand that you engage in low-success, high side-effect ineffective treatments. You are their emotional pets. Their vicarious discomfort is more important than your perpetual suffering.
Also society can’t let anyone think there is an escape from the dystopia we have created. You don’t own your body or your life, that is property of your government and the resource of your employer and your consumer demand is an economic asset. The machine needs it's cogs if it is going to complete the optimization of turning a living planet into a dead pile of wealth tokens. Your life is not your property. You do not have permission to die.
Dawkin's Law: any sufficiently genuine religious belief is indistinguishable from mental illness?
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 2:34 PM on April 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
In 1965, a Quaker named Norman Morrison immolated himself at the Pentagon to protest the Vietnam War. His wife, Anne Morrison Welsh, wrote a pamphlet about the experience in 2005. (Pamphlets are very big among Quakers, and this was part of a series that's been publishing for decades.) I can't find the text of the pamphlet on line, but here is a link to buy it. She also wrote a book about it, which I haven't read.
I haven't read the pamphlet in a long time, but I remember finding it very challenging. The book blurb at Goodreads reads in part:
Anyway, I think it can be valuable to learn about the experiences of people who were much closer to the event than any of us can be, and I offer Morrison Welsh as someone who has experienced this form of witness/protest more closely than, I hope, any of us ever will.
posted by Well I never at 2:58 PM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I haven't read the pamphlet in a long time, but I remember finding it very challenging. The book blurb at Goodreads reads in part:
While many were appalled by Morrison's action, others were deeply affected - among them, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, who later described Morrison's death as one of the critical turning points in his life.I was more on the "appalled" side of things—they had young children!—and also on the "what was the point of this? what was it expected to accomplish?" side of things. Anne Morrison Welsh herself really struggled to make sense of it, to make peace with it.
Anyway, I think it can be valuable to learn about the experiences of people who were much closer to the event than any of us can be, and I offer Morrison Welsh as someone who has experienced this form of witness/protest more closely than, I hope, any of us ever will.
posted by Well I never at 2:58 PM on April 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think it is entirely possible to find suicide, the despair-filled ending of one's own life for various personal or interpersonal reasons of varying validity, utterly horrid. And also to find self-immolation, the desperate public display of desiring change so much that someone is willing to kill themselves in a horrible, horrible way to draw attention to the absolute need for attention to the issues, to not be the same as suicide in anyway.
I think praemunire and I might be the only two MeFites in this thread who feel that way.
It's okay to view this event differently. I'm sad the man is dead. I'm sad he took his own life. I have deep empathy for the despair he felt about the state of our Nation's policies toward climate and mitigating the disaster.
I don't want to put words to his actions, don't want to speak for him. But for myself, I can see the symbol in his actions that this is the fate of all humanity. He just chose to do it quickly and with his own hands, rather than waiting for a heatwave or a wildfire or a famine or a collapse of pollinators or lack of fresh water does it for him. For me, that seems to be the statement he's making. The world is going to burn if we don't do something. He burned his own person to demonstrate this.
Anyway, I won't comment here again. I already had comments deleted early in the thread for saying basically what has been said here again and not deleted, so I'm content.
I wish the situation had never gotten to where he felt he had to do this.
posted by hippybear at 3:29 PM on April 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
I think praemunire and I might be the only two MeFites in this thread who feel that way.
It's okay to view this event differently. I'm sad the man is dead. I'm sad he took his own life. I have deep empathy for the despair he felt about the state of our Nation's policies toward climate and mitigating the disaster.
I don't want to put words to his actions, don't want to speak for him. But for myself, I can see the symbol in his actions that this is the fate of all humanity. He just chose to do it quickly and with his own hands, rather than waiting for a heatwave or a wildfire or a famine or a collapse of pollinators or lack of fresh water does it for him. For me, that seems to be the statement he's making. The world is going to burn if we don't do something. He burned his own person to demonstrate this.
Anyway, I won't comment here again. I already had comments deleted early in the thread for saying basically what has been said here again and not deleted, so I'm content.
I wish the situation had never gotten to where he felt he had to do this.
posted by hippybear at 3:29 PM on April 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
> No true activist would do what he did.
> If only he had gone about it properly. If only he had merely threatened suicide, or held up a sign, or some other means of shouting into the void that didn't offend my sensibilities or disturb my white knuckle grip on the status quo.
Unironically, yes.
> Surely that would have made all the difference?
No, it would just have made MORE of a difference (positive) by far than he managed to do now by immolating himself. In addition to the tragedy of his suicide there is also the reality that his activism was bumbling and bungled. If anything comes of his self immolation it will not be because of what he did, but because of the living activists who do the actual work of making greater meaning of his death for the benefit of the cause (rather than all self-immolate like he did).
posted by MiraK at 3:57 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
> If only he had gone about it properly. If only he had merely threatened suicide, or held up a sign, or some other means of shouting into the void that didn't offend my sensibilities or disturb my white knuckle grip on the status quo.
Unironically, yes.
> Surely that would have made all the difference?
No, it would just have made MORE of a difference (positive) by far than he managed to do now by immolating himself. In addition to the tragedy of his suicide there is also the reality that his activism was bumbling and bungled. If anything comes of his self immolation it will not be because of what he did, but because of the living activists who do the actual work of making greater meaning of his death for the benefit of the cause (rather than all self-immolate like he did).
posted by MiraK at 3:57 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it is understandable that his actions arouse such intense feelings for people. In fact, I think that if I were in his shoes contemplating this action *for over a year* that would be part of what I hoped. That it would feel so unconscionable to people that it might move someone in power enough to make incremental change. I know that no amount of me doing the right things - calling, protesting, writing, planting trees, on and on - has ever moved anyone to the intense feelings or any measurable change. I also think it's quite brash for any of us to judge whether his actions were a success or failure in so short a time. It took him longer to prepare than has elapsed since his immolation. We have no idea what may come of it.
If our lives are our own, and I believe they are, and he believed that this was the best he could do to move the consciousness on climate catastrophe, I do not doubt that he knows better than I do about his own life.
I also think that it's note worthy that he is a photographer from Colorado. There were single fires that burned for MONTHS before containment in the time leading up to his choice. Fire fighters died fighting those fires. Their deaths are directly caused by climate change. They certainly didn't arouse this sort of intensity of feeling or contemplation. They were tragedies that people moved on from. And there are more and more of them every year caused by this climate catastrophe.
For me, there is a scale of the whole planet that is hard to comprehend. But I can comprehend this one man who did see the scale and did what he could to cry out in the strongest way possible that we see the fire. That the scale become intimate enough to horrify viscerally. I do not abhor his actions. I do abhor the world that has become so indifferent that we can not imagine what it would be to have this depth of conviction that this WAS the ultimate amount he could do to bring change. Is it climate despair to believe that your single life might make enough of a difference? Do we truly believe that the people in charge of this nation are so bereft of morality that this won't worm through them over the coming years as they make environmental choices? I think it is a deeply profound act of hope to believe that people will allow themselves to be moved by this. I mourn that we live in a world where it takes that kind of hope.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:26 PM on April 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
If our lives are our own, and I believe they are, and he believed that this was the best he could do to move the consciousness on climate catastrophe, I do not doubt that he knows better than I do about his own life.
I also think that it's note worthy that he is a photographer from Colorado. There were single fires that burned for MONTHS before containment in the time leading up to his choice. Fire fighters died fighting those fires. Their deaths are directly caused by climate change. They certainly didn't arouse this sort of intensity of feeling or contemplation. They were tragedies that people moved on from. And there are more and more of them every year caused by this climate catastrophe.
For me, there is a scale of the whole planet that is hard to comprehend. But I can comprehend this one man who did see the scale and did what he could to cry out in the strongest way possible that we see the fire. That the scale become intimate enough to horrify viscerally. I do not abhor his actions. I do abhor the world that has become so indifferent that we can not imagine what it would be to have this depth of conviction that this WAS the ultimate amount he could do to bring change. Is it climate despair to believe that your single life might make enough of a difference? Do we truly believe that the people in charge of this nation are so bereft of morality that this won't worm through them over the coming years as they make environmental choices? I think it is a deeply profound act of hope to believe that people will allow themselves to be moved by this. I mourn that we live in a world where it takes that kind of hope.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:26 PM on April 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
Do we truly believe that the people in charge of this nation are so bereft of morality that this won't worm through them over the coming years as they make environmental choices?
Frankly: yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:02 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Frankly: yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:02 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Between the pursed lips at incorrect activism, accusations of narcissism, and bashing cultures and religions not our own, this thread is deeply uncomfortoble, and not in a good way.
posted by doggod at 6:38 PM on April 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by doggod at 6:38 PM on April 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
>> Do we truly believe that the people in charge of this nation are so bereft of morality that this won't worm through them over the coming years as they make environmental choices?
> Frankly: yes.
And honestly? If we don't live in a nation so bereft, if this act of self immolation has the effect that Bruce hoped it would have, that in itself would be something to activize against. A society that rewards and glamorizes suicide to the extent that suicide becomes the mode of activism is not a society compatible with life.
I'm not among the people who think suicide is morally wrong as a personal choice - I think our bodies belong to ourselves, and so do our lives. But this discussion isn't about personal choice vs. "banning" suicide (whatever that means). This discussion is about (a) whether this suicide was an effective and valid example of activism done right, and (b) whether suicide in the name of activism should be honored, ever.
In other comments I talked about the first, but as to the second... I'm definitely among those who think suicide should never be rewarded in any way by a community, because that's how you create a culture of death. It's dystopian to honor this act.
posted by MiraK at 6:47 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
> Frankly: yes.
And honestly? If we don't live in a nation so bereft, if this act of self immolation has the effect that Bruce hoped it would have, that in itself would be something to activize against. A society that rewards and glamorizes suicide to the extent that suicide becomes the mode of activism is not a society compatible with life.
I'm not among the people who think suicide is morally wrong as a personal choice - I think our bodies belong to ourselves, and so do our lives. But this discussion isn't about personal choice vs. "banning" suicide (whatever that means). This discussion is about (a) whether this suicide was an effective and valid example of activism done right, and (b) whether suicide in the name of activism should be honored, ever.
In other comments I talked about the first, but as to the second... I'm definitely among those who think suicide should never be rewarded in any way by a community, because that's how you create a culture of death. It's dystopian to honor this act.
posted by MiraK at 6:47 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
We're living in a dystopia, one in which the powers that exist are content to let the planet burn because addressing the issue would disrupt capitalism, and we fukin can't let THAT happen, can we?
This act is dystopian because we live in a dystopia.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on April 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
This act is dystopian because we live in a dystopia.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on April 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
This act is dystopian because we live in a dystopia
Society sucks in a whole lot of different ways, but none of those ways should be used to justify perpetuating the others. "Eh it's dystopia anyway, why not add death cult to it?" is a terrible notion. This act is dystopian for totally different reasons apart from the fact that we do live in a dystopian world vis a vis climate and other things.
And it's really disturbing to see this argument: that the climate emergency has left us/you/Bruce/anyone no choice but to self immolate. Not only is that completely untrue, it's also a really dangerous idea to be spreading.
posted by MiraK at 6:56 PM on April 26, 2022
Society sucks in a whole lot of different ways, but none of those ways should be used to justify perpetuating the others. "Eh it's dystopia anyway, why not add death cult to it?" is a terrible notion. This act is dystopian for totally different reasons apart from the fact that we do live in a dystopian world vis a vis climate and other things.
And it's really disturbing to see this argument: that the climate emergency has left us/you/Bruce/anyone no choice but to self immolate. Not only is that completely untrue, it's also a really dangerous idea to be spreading.
posted by MiraK at 6:56 PM on April 26, 2022
I don't see anyone in this thread calling for self-immolation. I see people who loathe the idea, and people who don't support self-immolation but understand this man's motivations and actions. I don't see anyone suggesting this is a path for anyone else at all.
posted by hippybear at 7:02 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:02 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Suicide is perhaps the greatest act of defiance, but a pretty poor act of protest. Our lives are spent in some form of negotiation with others, but the act of suicide takes that control away from everyone else. As a form of protest, it’s a poor choice as there is no guarantee that it will be impactful.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:16 PM on April 26, 2022
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:16 PM on April 26, 2022
I don't see anyone suggesting this is a path for anyone else at all.
- If we call it a valid instance of activism that should be honored as such
- Or if we think this act should make people in power sit up and take notice
- Or if we say Bruce was justified in believing that this was the most effective activism accessible to him
- Or if we say his decision to self immolate was justified because of how bad the climate emergency is
All or any of the above is suggesting self immolation as a path for other climate activists. On preview, straight nails it in the comment below. Let this fail, let Bruce be forgotten, let his act never get more publicity than this because otherwise he will have started a death cult.
posted by MiraK at 7:30 PM on April 26, 2022
- If we call it a valid instance of activism that should be honored as such
- Or if we think this act should make people in power sit up and take notice
- Or if we say Bruce was justified in believing that this was the most effective activism accessible to him
- Or if we say his decision to self immolate was justified because of how bad the climate emergency is
All or any of the above is suggesting self immolation as a path for other climate activists. On preview, straight nails it in the comment below. Let this fail, let Bruce be forgotten, let his act never get more publicity than this because otherwise he will have started a death cult.
posted by MiraK at 7:30 PM on April 26, 2022
I'm not trying to dump on this guy. I'm just saying it's not an outrage that the media isn't paying more attention to this. I approve of deciding this is not an effective way to get attention. I want it to be ineffective. I want it to fail and for people who care about climate change to find another way.
posted by straight at 7:30 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 7:30 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Can't help reading this thread and remembering the fanfare thread (and general reviews online) about Don't Look Up. ok, this guy's death was apparently senseless and that's why he deserves little to no coverage not even an editorial about the issue he was standing up for. What about the dozens of climate scientists who protested and got arrested and barely got any news coverage either*? Were their activism lacking too? I didn't even get, in my initial read, if this man's protest is part of that overall Scientist Rebellion movement.
*Scientists Risk Arrest to Demand Climate Action
Extinction Rebellion: Seventy arrested at climate change protests
NASA scientist arrested after chaining himself to Chase Bank as part of global climate protests
posted by cendawanita at 7:45 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
*Scientists Risk Arrest to Demand Climate Action
Extinction Rebellion: Seventy arrested at climate change protests
NASA scientist arrested after chaining himself to Chase Bank as part of global climate protests
posted by cendawanita at 7:45 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
What about the dozens of climate scientists who protested and got arrested and barely got any news coverage either*
Thank you, yes, PLEASE let's talk about them instead. I really appreciate you linking those articles.
posted by MiraK at 7:47 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Thank you, yes, PLEASE let's talk about them instead. I really appreciate you linking those articles.
posted by MiraK at 7:47 PM on April 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm really sympathetic to his worldview though, let me just state it for the record. And if he's more in the movement where I clearly am not, all those acceptable protests landing like a lead balloon must really be a particularly persuasive factor, I imagine. But yeah, I for one am not really interested in adjudicating the moral calculus of his individual action, but it is evident there's a sense of despair from anyone who's even close enough to the work. Maybe talking about the work needed is how we can honour his act in this thread.
posted by cendawanita at 7:52 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:52 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Why? Why is Antigone heroic and this guy merely mentally ill? Why is Thomas More a saint?
I don't presume mental illness. Nor do I, btw, find suicide, in general, as unthinkable as perhaps many of the people in this thread.
If he's of sound mind, then his foes are let off the hook. One less activist to deal with. And an object of laughter in death. May as well be the Life of Brian suicide squad. The notable martyrs of history didn't kill themselves. They made their foes participate, made them responsible for their deaths. You're going to have to do the work of killing me yourself.
I don't see anyone in this thread calling for self-immolation. I see people who loathe the idea, and people who don't support self-immolation but understand this man's motivations and actions. I don't see anyone suggesting this is a path for anyone else at all.
I see people in admiration of his bravery and courage. I have little admiration for a dramatic, pointless, and possibly counterproductive action, no matter how much bravery and courage it took for him to complete this act.
The left has a tendency to fetishize activism, which always pissed me off a bit. Kind of like a love of show and dramatic declaration. This episode is the ultimate fetishism of activism. Bravery and courage? Sure. Though he'd still be brave and courageous if he self immolated in the cause of, say, reviving the Southern Confederacy. Being the asshole I am, I would shed no tears if all Confederates has such courage.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't presume mental illness. Nor do I, btw, find suicide, in general, as unthinkable as perhaps many of the people in this thread.
If he's of sound mind, then his foes are let off the hook. One less activist to deal with. And an object of laughter in death. May as well be the Life of Brian suicide squad. The notable martyrs of history didn't kill themselves. They made their foes participate, made them responsible for their deaths. You're going to have to do the work of killing me yourself.
I don't see anyone in this thread calling for self-immolation. I see people who loathe the idea, and people who don't support self-immolation but understand this man's motivations and actions. I don't see anyone suggesting this is a path for anyone else at all.
I see people in admiration of his bravery and courage. I have little admiration for a dramatic, pointless, and possibly counterproductive action, no matter how much bravery and courage it took for him to complete this act.
The left has a tendency to fetishize activism, which always pissed me off a bit. Kind of like a love of show and dramatic declaration. This episode is the ultimate fetishism of activism. Bravery and courage? Sure. Though he'd still be brave and courageous if he self immolated in the cause of, say, reviving the Southern Confederacy. Being the asshole I am, I would shed no tears if all Confederates has such courage.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
If this thread turns into a long list of entirely overlooked non-lethal climate protests that should have gotten bigger attention, that seems like a perfectly reasonable pivot.
All any of this thread is going to add up to is: we aren't doing anything about climate change and it doesn't matter what form your protest takes, without action so radical nobody is willing to make it because of the disruption of capitalism, we will not change fast enough to stop our world from falling entirely into climate chaos.
Now, i want 10 years from now to prove me wrong, and I will welcome all the scorn thrown at me in 2032. But, daring the Universe to prove me wrong has really not gotten me far in this life.
posted by hippybear at 8:09 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
All any of this thread is going to add up to is: we aren't doing anything about climate change and it doesn't matter what form your protest takes, without action so radical nobody is willing to make it because of the disruption of capitalism, we will not change fast enough to stop our world from falling entirely into climate chaos.
Now, i want 10 years from now to prove me wrong, and I will welcome all the scorn thrown at me in 2032. But, daring the Universe to prove me wrong has really not gotten me far in this life.
posted by hippybear at 8:09 PM on April 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
It might be even better if those things were given their own threads instead of being buried down here at the bottom. This was the first of several threads I had planned about climate change activists including some seeds of hope (like the ivory billed woodpecker not being extinct!) but it's not gonna happen from me. This thread was ugly in ways that are sufficiently discouraging to me. Having different opinions is something I cherish, but only when it comes with a measure of respect. I hope someone else does make those threads.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 8:41 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Maybe it would be prudent to abstain from such derogatory characterisations of a culture other than your own? When you get told 'You don't understand where I'm coming from', the best thing to do is NOT to turn around and proceed misunderstanding even harder.
Uh, doggod, I'm not talking about Thich Nhat Hanh's culture. (Which is not entirely other-than-my-own.) I believe what he says about monks. The strawman in his argument is "suicide". And when he says "suicide", he does not mean "suicide as it is practiced in my culture." He's making a claim about suicide as a general human phenomenon.
posted by feral_goldfish at 8:46 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Uh, doggod, I'm not talking about Thich Nhat Hanh's culture. (Which is not entirely other-than-my-own.) I believe what he says about monks. The strawman in his argument is "suicide". And when he says "suicide", he does not mean "suicide as it is practiced in my culture." He's making a claim about suicide as a general human phenomenon.
posted by feral_goldfish at 8:46 PM on April 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I haven't found this thread ugly. I'm grateful people have taken the time to engage rather than pay their respects and move on.
posted by Braeburn at 11:20 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Braeburn at 11:20 PM on April 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
I can have tremendous sympathy for his despair and his desire to take action while still believing that this was not an effective form of activism. It's not pearl clutching to ask whether, by ending his life for something he deeply believed in, he furthered his cause.
Has anyone on this thread been inspired to take more concrete action because of his death? That's not a rhetorical question. One way this could theoretically be effective is if it inspired other activists. People on MetaFilter are likely to be sympathetic to his cause. So has it inspired action among those who think he is right?
Or will he change anyone's mind? What if he were a vegan protesting the torture and deaths of millions of farmed animals a year? Would you be more likely to go vegan because of it or just dismiss him as another vegan nut?
What if his action was in support of something you just don't believe in? What if he were protesting legal abortion? Would you rethink your position? Do you think he's made other people rethink theirs?
I believe that intentions matter and that his intentions were good. I do not consider this exactly the same as a suicide from personal despair - though I also do not consider it martyrdom. Whether he was trying to do the right thing is a separate question from whether any good will come from this.
I am so tired of spending my time around people who think they are doing something by having the "right" opinions. We can have strong feelings about this action and think we're good people because of those feelings while doing nothing. I include myself in this criticism - it's so much easier to have feelings than to take action. I guess we can't really know if his action will inspire more than feelings at this point, but I will be surprised if it does.
posted by FencingGal at 4:19 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Has anyone on this thread been inspired to take more concrete action because of his death? That's not a rhetorical question. One way this could theoretically be effective is if it inspired other activists. People on MetaFilter are likely to be sympathetic to his cause. So has it inspired action among those who think he is right?
Or will he change anyone's mind? What if he were a vegan protesting the torture and deaths of millions of farmed animals a year? Would you be more likely to go vegan because of it or just dismiss him as another vegan nut?
What if his action was in support of something you just don't believe in? What if he were protesting legal abortion? Would you rethink your position? Do you think he's made other people rethink theirs?
I believe that intentions matter and that his intentions were good. I do not consider this exactly the same as a suicide from personal despair - though I also do not consider it martyrdom. Whether he was trying to do the right thing is a separate question from whether any good will come from this.
I am so tired of spending my time around people who think they are doing something by having the "right" opinions. We can have strong feelings about this action and think we're good people because of those feelings while doing nothing. I include myself in this criticism - it's so much easier to have feelings than to take action. I guess we can't really know if his action will inspire more than feelings at this point, but I will be surprised if it does.
posted by FencingGal at 4:19 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
How can anyone be "right" about this? All the jousting and back-and-forth, to what end? Know what you know, believe what you believe.
What a monstrous decision, and what monstrous times we live in.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
What a monstrous decision, and what monstrous times we live in.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cross posting from the medical gaslighting thread, on the intersection between the disregard of Black people's ailments--injuries from fossil fuel pollution, for example, and climate damages.
If compassion was the call on this action, compassion concerning air that kills human beings, and the supreme court's support for such; you could do worse than listen to the complaint of people impacted by the carbon pollution.
Before it goes up into the atmosphere, the pollution passes through the lungs of women like Geraldine Mayho.
Sicknesses from the US Department of Energy's oil export plantation in St. James are routinely ignored. Here's Geraldine Mayho's complaint in 2017.
Geraldine mentions Burton Lane, 2500 ft from Department of Energy Road. You can take a peek at it on Google.
Black districts of St James Parish, Louisiana are currently the target of multiple Methanol export and Plastics export facilities, as well as Carbon Sequestration wells, all of which will contribute major new sources of CO2e into the upper atmosphere, and will likely cause the USA to miss its Paris Accord obligations.
RIP Geraldine.
On the positive side, the dead are not gone. Because of the racism and inhumanity of the oil industry, they are climate activists. The bones of dead ancestors routinely stop multi-billion dollar petrochemical developments, if they are recognized as bones of human beings, to whose descendants belong visitation rights, and rights afforded to consecrated sites.
Recognizing the rights of indigenous and Black people in the United States to have their ancestors' gravesites commemorated is also part of the political struggle to stabilize the climate.
posted by eustatic at 10:09 AM on April 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
If compassion was the call on this action, compassion concerning air that kills human beings, and the supreme court's support for such; you could do worse than listen to the complaint of people impacted by the carbon pollution.
Before it goes up into the atmosphere, the pollution passes through the lungs of women like Geraldine Mayho.
Sicknesses from the US Department of Energy's oil export plantation in St. James are routinely ignored. Here's Geraldine Mayho's complaint in 2017.
Geraldine mentions Burton Lane, 2500 ft from Department of Energy Road. You can take a peek at it on Google.
Black districts of St James Parish, Louisiana are currently the target of multiple Methanol export and Plastics export facilities, as well as Carbon Sequestration wells, all of which will contribute major new sources of CO2e into the upper atmosphere, and will likely cause the USA to miss its Paris Accord obligations.
RIP Geraldine.
On the positive side, the dead are not gone. Because of the racism and inhumanity of the oil industry, they are climate activists. The bones of dead ancestors routinely stop multi-billion dollar petrochemical developments, if they are recognized as bones of human beings, to whose descendants belong visitation rights, and rights afforded to consecrated sites.
Recognizing the rights of indigenous and Black people in the United States to have their ancestors' gravesites commemorated is also part of the political struggle to stabilize the climate.
posted by eustatic at 10:09 AM on April 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Gentle reminder that there are many Mefites who have experienced suicidal ideation or attempted suicide in the (perhaps even recent) past. Please be cautious as you make blanket statements and judgements about the validity of our reasons for having been in that place or still being there. Thank you.
posted by The Adventure Begins at 10:10 PM on April 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by The Adventure Begins at 10:10 PM on April 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
.
I'm surprised this didn't make more headlines?
posted by pelvicsorcery at 8:55 AM on April 29, 2022
I'm surprised this didn't make more headlines?
posted by pelvicsorcery at 8:55 AM on April 29, 2022
As I read more of the thread: it's okay for this to be a debate. I don't think there can be a right or wrong answer on this. This is "why are we here?"-level stuff. It's okay for people to disagree on it, and it's okay for people to get angry while they disagree about it. Everyone's coming from a different context here, and that's also okay.
Suicide is wrong, it hurts families/friends, and society has an interest in stopping it. Your families and friends prefer your long-term pointless suffering and demand that you engage in low-success, high side-effect ineffective treatments. You are their emotional pets. Their vicarious discomfort is more important than your perpetual suffering.
But maybe let's not do this.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 11:42 AM on April 29, 2022
Suicide is wrong, it hurts families/friends, and society has an interest in stopping it. Your families and friends prefer your long-term pointless suffering and demand that you engage in low-success, high side-effect ineffective treatments. You are their emotional pets. Their vicarious discomfort is more important than your perpetual suffering.
But maybe let's not do this.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 11:42 AM on April 29, 2022
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posted by lalochezia at 11:42 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]