What do you mean you never knew your mother? Or you're adopted? TERRORIST!

April 25, 2011 10:18 AM

The State Department wants to make it more difficult for "some" of the other 70% to get a passport. With questions including your mother's addresses and employers before your birth, any "religious ceremonies" surrounding your birth, and even dates on which Mom received prenatal care, today is the last day to register any objection to the proposal.

The form itself [warning: PDF download] also asks for information about your siblings, and every employer and address you've ever had, too.

posted by bitter-girl.com (67 comments total)

Wow, America. Wow.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:21 AM on April 25, 2011 [7 favorites]

So, it's kinda like that 'birther' bill in AZ?
posted by Confess, Fletch at 10:22 AM on April 25, 2011

Let's not kid ourselves: It's going to get really bad in this country.

I'm working as hard as I can on escaping.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:24 AM on April 25, 2011 [3 favorites]

Hmmm, disenfranchise and impoverish the populace, then make it damn hard for them to leave.
posted by flex at 10:25 AM on April 25, 2011 [3 favorites]

What purpose could this possibly serve?

Seriously, when tinfoil hat shit is the thing that you get after you Occam's Razor something, it is pretty fucked up.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:27 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

That's more information than I gave Canada when I applied to be a citizen. (And they are happy to have me, too.)

My American friends no longer ask me why I don't want to visit them.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:27 AM on April 25, 2011 [4 favorites]

Some day, the disenfranchised and impoverished will so greatly outnumber the connected, wealthy people that things will change by will of the people, or by force.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:29 AM on April 25, 2011

I'm working as hard as I can on escaping.

I was, for a while. Then I realized there's nowhere to go that isn't getting worse at the same rate.
posted by eriko at 10:29 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is so absolutely ridiculous I thought it was a prank.

Seriously.

I just got my passport last year, after 36 years of not having one.

I urge EVERYONE HERE who doesn't have one to go get one NOW.


It does kind of break the whole "Love it or Leave it" ethos in half, no?

Now it's:

LOVE IT or LOVE IT.
posted by gcbv at 10:29 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Are they seriously asking for your mother's doctor when you were born? The dates of her appointments with that doctor? Every residence you've lived in since birth? What if my parents don't cooperate and provide me with the information? No passport?
posted by PhillC at 10:29 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

I was, for a while. Then I realized there's nowhere to go that isn't getting worse at the same rate.

Um, no.

There are places I've been that are doing just fine, relatively speaking, in terms of personal freedom, regulation of the marketplace, and ability to come and go at your personal leisure.
posted by gcbv at 10:30 AM on April 25, 2011 [6 favorites]

Let me ask: Is passport fraud a big problem? Are non-citizens obtaining U.S. passports at alarming rates? What problem are they trying to solve with this?
posted by PhillC at 10:31 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Now, I'm not saying this law is racist, but I am saying it sounds racist.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:31 AM on April 25, 2011 [10 favorites]

Anyone have a link to the proposed form on an actual .gov site? All the links I've seen all point to the same papersplease.org site.

The form being passed around just doesn't look very "governmenty" to me.
posted by madajb at 10:31 AM on April 25, 2011

only some, not all, applicants will be required to fill out the new questionnaire, but no criteria have been made public for determining who will be subjected to these additional new written interrogatories.

I am sure that the good men & women at the passport offices will not use this as a smokescreen for bigotry.
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:31 AM on April 25, 2011

This isn't intended as the new application for everyone. This intended to be used when a person's citizenship or identity is in question, and they can't present adequate documentation. Here's a PDF that explains it.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:31 AM on April 25, 2011 [17 favorites]

What problem are they trying to solve with this?

The "Americans visiting the outside world" problem.
posted by The Whelk at 10:32 AM on April 25, 2011 [4 favorites]

Some day, the disenfranchised and impoverished will so greatly outnumber the connected, wealthy people that things will change by will of the people, or by force.

But if they do that OMG GAYZ GET MARRIED ABORTIONS EVERYWHEREZ VOTE REPUB OR WE ALL DIEEEEEE
posted by JHarris at 10:32 AM on April 25, 2011

eriko: "I was, for a while. Then I realized there's nowhere to go that isn't getting worse at the same rate."

Norway. Sweden. Finland. Denmark. Netherlands. Germany.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:33 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

Are they seriously asking for your mother's doctor when you were born? The dates of her appointments with that doctor? Every residence you've lived in since birth? What if my parents don't cooperate and provide me with the information? No passport?

Its if you weren't born in a hospital or if you didn't have a birth certificate issued w/in a year. I don't find it as problematic as wanting to know where I've lived, where I went to school, etc. It seems like a half a step towards requiring exit visas.
posted by JPD at 10:33 AM on April 25, 2011

Wait, what? Dates of appointments your mother had for prenatal care? What the hell? 1) Will someone actually cross-reference that information, and 2) what the hell?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:34 AM on April 25, 2011

This is only bad depending on who it is applied to. If it's applied to people who can prove citizenship using a birth, naturalization or similar certificate, it's clearly ridiculous. If it's applied in lieu of providing that sort of evidence, it could actually allow more people to get passports.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:35 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

thanks thorzdad for clarifying that. If thats the case this thread is a bit misguided.
posted by JPD at 10:35 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Thanks, Thorzdad.

So this isn't exactly the worst thing ever. I can actually understand why they would want some pretty solid facts about your parents if your identity or citizenship is in question.

They could do some good and explain how one's identity would be in question even after providing all the data necessary for a passport, but we're not at some North Korean crazy place just yet.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:35 AM on April 25, 2011

Based on Thorzdad's link, this seems like a way to make passports easier to obtain, not harder.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:36 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Its if you weren't born in a hospital or if you didn't have a birth certificate issued w/in a year.

That makes more sense. I would imagine there must be some strange circumstances if were born in the last few decades and weren't provided a birth certificate. Not saying I like this, but those questions make more sense with context.
posted by PhillC at 10:36 AM on April 25, 2011

What if my parents don't cooperate and provide me with the information? No passport?

That's what the article says.
posted by blucevalo at 10:37 AM on April 25, 2011

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: Based on Thorzdad's link, this seems like a way to make passports easier to obtain, not harder.

Except, if you have trouble identifying yourself, what are the chances you'll know when your mom had her first ultrasound?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:38 AM on April 25, 2011

Thanks, Thorzdad. This thread feels more like outragefilter after looking at that link.
posted by PhillC at 10:38 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Whoops, should have read JPD and Thorzdad before opening my yap. I'm 0-2 today.
posted by blucevalo at 10:38 AM on April 25, 2011

Both my parents are dead, as are their parents, and I only have half-siblings (we didn't grow up together), so I've got nobody to ask about a lot of these questions. And? The kicker? My birth certificate was issued by the state of Hawaii! Clearly, I must not be an American!

I have no idea where my stepmother was born. I have no idea what some of the street addresses are for places I lived when I was 8 or 9 or 10. I started working when I was about 14, and no, I have no idea what my supervisors' names and phone numbers are. Are you high?
posted by rtha at 10:39 AM on April 25, 2011 [4 favorites]

Based on Thorzdad's link, this seems like a way to make passports easier to obtain, not harder.


But I want to be outraged and talk about facism ...
posted by timdicator at 10:40 AM on April 25, 2011 [5 favorites]

Thorzdad: "This isn't intended as the new application for everyone. This intended to be used when a person's citizenship or identity is in question, and they can't present adequate documentation. Here's a PDF that explains it."

Thank you.
posted by zarq at 10:41 AM on April 25, 2011

So this isn't exactly the worst thing ever.

The old "fuck you, I got mine" mentality is exactly what they are banking on.

I can actually understand why they would want some pretty solid facts about your parents if your identity or citizenship is in question.

Indeed. Yet why would anyone know the dates their mother visited the doctor, decades ago? These are not "solid fact" questions they are "deliberately impossible barrier" questions.
posted by DU at 10:41 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

Outside of the loopy "religious ceremony" thing this sounds an awful lot like the kind of stuff I had to fill in to get my Greencard. I wonder if the "some" people are naturalizatised citizens? If so they probably have all this stuff on file anyway, but they have a fetish for making you fill things out repetitively.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on April 25, 2011

...And using the preview button should clearly be mandatory for me.
posted by rtha at 10:41 AM on April 25, 2011

Anybody angry beyond this line hasn't read the previous comments.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:42 AM on April 25, 2011 [9 favorites]

Or what Thorzdad said.
posted by Artw at 10:42 AM on April 25, 2011

if you have trouble identifying yourself, what are the chances you'll know when your mom had her first ultrasound?

If you have trouble identifying yourself, your odds on getting a passport are already pretty damn slim. It seems like this is an attempt to give you more options towards identification. Yeah, perhaps you can't come up with a birth certificate, but just perhaps if you live in a small enough community, or you have a good enough connection with your mom you can come up with alternative forms of proof that your where born here.

I think the post was poorly written and there are a lot of inadvertent bruised knees
posted by edgeways at 10:43 AM on April 25, 2011

I will be accused of alarmism here, and we all too often make comparisons to fascism in these sorts of discussion, but this is actually the sort of thing the Nazis did. Sebastian Haffner discusses how, slowly and incrementally, the Nazis intruded into all aspects of life. One of the ways they did this was to make it very difficult for anyone (not just Jews, although the Nuremberg Laws placed much stronger restrictions on Jewish people) to leave the country.

Isolate the people from the outside world, and then stoke up paranoia about "foreign influences." A credulous population, with little other experience of other countries will be very easy to manipulate in this manner. The question is, who is doing this? Is there legislation supporting this? Are there Cheney loyalists in the civil service still pushing his agenda?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:43 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

But I want to be outraged and talk about facism ...

Facism is a growing problem in the world today. Far too many people are willing to discriminate based solely on someone's face.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:44 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

MeFi has been really bad today. Let's try a little harder, everyone.
posted by BeerFilter at 10:46 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

Ooh... the home-birth people are still going to absolutely freak over this. I mean, a portion of them freak over everything, but still.

This would still seem to make things unreasonably difficult for people whose birth circumstances are in any way murky, and I would think all the more so for children of mothers with shaky immigration status at the time they gave birth. But is this questionnaire more or less difficult to navigate than whatever policy was in place before?
posted by wreckingball at 10:46 AM on April 25, 2011

Passports are so yesterday. Wouldn't providing the immigration officer with your @twitter suffice?
posted by jsavimbi at 10:46 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

Except, if you have trouble identifying yourself, what are the chances you'll know when your mom had her first ultrasound?

If the State Department rejected people based solely on not filling in that data, of course it would be ridiculous.

The fact is that ascertaining citizenship in the absence of documentation is messy, and the form has to allow the applicant to include any and all information that may help their case. Some individual has to use their judgement to decide whether the evidence is sufficient. I sincerely doubt the guidelines will tell them to always fail people who don't include the date of prenatal medical appointments, or indeed any other individual piece of minor information.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:46 AM on April 25, 2011

The last couple times I've entered Europe (and now Tunisia) I've had an easier time getting through immigration than I do when I re-enter the United States, as a citizen

This place is tanking.
posted by crayz at 10:46 AM on April 25, 2011

Land of the free? Home of the brave?

I guess that's what happens when the weak get into positions of power. They start preying on the strong. Ah, well. Poor babies. The mean old monsters under their beds and the nasty old skeletons rattling in their closets must scare them right out of their wits...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 10:48 AM on April 25, 2011

Just saw Thorzdad's link. Perhaps it says something about me, or what I've observed going on in the US over the past decade (from both inside and outside perspectives), but I still don't quite trust it.

When I went to prove my citizenship (having been born outside the US), it was sufficient for me to provide documentation demonstrating my own place of birth and my parents' status at the time. With all of the birther shenanigans in the past little while, I can see many reasons why certain parties would prefer it not be that easy.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:48 AM on April 25, 2011

So am I getting this? Yes we are talking about passports but im going to use an experience I have had as an analogy. There are two ways for me to obtain a copy of my birth certificate, I know because I have been through it several times. One way is to have an ID that proves I am me, the other way is to have my mother, with her ID and hand it to me. But what if I have no ID and my mother is dead. So if I can come up with enough documentation to prove who my mother is, by digging though all all sorts of old records, I can prove my citizenship?

Sounds easier to me. If I had no ID and my mom was dead I would be screwed.

Also baptism records are already accepted as 1 point of proof of identity in NYS, I had to find mine to get my first legit ID.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:49 AM on April 25, 2011

I posted this because on my initial read, it seemed to be asking for considerably more information than, say, I was required to give when I obtained a top secret clearance to intern for the State Department abroad. But even the supporting statement that Thorzdad linked has what, to me, reads as potentially problematic stuff:

Let's say you are using alternate means to identify yourself, your birth, etc so you CAN get a passport, but the secondary method you're using to prove [whatever] turns out to be incorrect for whatever reason.

In addition to this primary use of the data, the DS-5513 may also be used as evidence in the prosecution of any individual who makes a false statement on the application and for other
2 uses as set forth in the Prefatory Statement and the Passport System of Records Notice (State-26).

So now you're in double trouble. You can't get a passport, you can't prove whatever fact needed to be proved in an alternative way, AND they can go after you legally for not having that information in a format they deem acceptable. In my opinion, that's scary.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:49 AM on April 25, 2011

Good ol' FUD. Amazing how people are so quickly planning "escaping" this country in part due to a poorly substantiated FPP.
posted by inturnaround at 10:49 AM on April 25, 2011 [2 favorites]

One of the ways they did this was to make it very difficult for anyone (not just Jews, although the Nuremberg Laws placed much stronger restrictions on Jewish people) to leave the country.

Before this form, a very limited amount of documentation was accepted as primary proof of citizenship:

Primary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship (One of the following):

Previously issued, undamaged U.S. Passport
Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state*
Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth
Naturalization Certificate
Certificate of Citizenship

If these forms are not available, there is a very murky category of "secondary evidence".

A new form which codifies pre-existing procedures to establish citizenship? Or Fascism??? YOU DECIDE!!!
posted by muddgirl at 10:51 AM on April 25, 2011 [3 favorites]

I don't get all the love for Thorzdad's link. It explains nothing. There's a bunch of legalistic mumbo jumbo, then a fairly clear paragraph related to the religious ceremony question (without explaining how a person is supposed to know what happened before they were born) then some more mumbo jumbo.
posted by DU at 10:52 AM on April 25, 2011

A new form which codifies pre-existing procedures to establish citizenship? Or Fascism??? YOU DECIDE!!!

Maybe both?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:52 AM on April 25, 2011

So now you're in double trouble. You can't get a passport, you can't prove whatever fact needed to be proved in an alternative way, AND they can go after you legally for not having that information in a format they deem acceptable.

I'm sure you can already be prosecuted for making false statements in an attempt to get official documents. Nothing has changed here. No-one is going to be prosecuted for making minor non-substantive errors; the judge would laugh it out of court.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:53 AM on April 25, 2011

People are addicted to panic on both ends of the political spectrum.

Neat.
posted by aramaic at 10:53 AM on April 25, 2011 [3 favorites]

This many comments and no "Let me tell you about my mother" Blade Runner quip? You're slipping, Metafilter!
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 10:54 AM on April 25, 2011

There are two ways for me to obtain a copy of my birth certificate, I know because I have been through it several times. One way is to have an ID that proves I am me, the other way is to have my mother, with her ID and hand it to me.

Did you really?

Identification Requirements - application must be submitted with copies of either A or B:

A. One (1) of the following forms of valid photo-ID:
Driver license
State issued non-driver photo-ID card
Passport
U.S. Military issued photo-ID

B. Two (2) of the following showing the applicant's name and address:
Utility or telephone bills
Letter from a government agency dated within the last six (6) months

Seems pretty reasonable to me.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:54 AM on April 25, 2011

zarg, DU:

I worry that everything hinges on the phrase "adequate documentation". If you have that, then you don't need this form. The whole process of having passport examiners at the post office opens this assessment to substantial interpretation.

Taken individually, all of these questions might make sense. If a non-citizen shows up with a 3 month old baby and wants to get it a passport, then pre-natal appointments might be a way of proving that the mother was in the Us before it was born. The same question posed to a silver-haired lady looking to take her first cruise vacation, subjects one to ridicule on the Internet.

While some have critiqued the post, it's this form that really needs work. Essentially, that is why regulations are posted. You get free reviewers, possibly impacted by the rule. They point out the bad ideas and perhaps propose better ones, for free. I suspect this form was too far from "right" and a huge glut of random Internet responses should convey that fact to the folks at State. It would have been better to have a long list of possible, verifiable, factors that could contribute to proving one's identity. That's probably what the State Dept wants the form to be, but the wording missed the mark.
posted by RSaunders at 10:55 AM on April 25, 2011

A new form which codifies pre-existing procedures to establish citizenship? Or Fascism??? YOU DECIDE!!!

I'm trying to remember the last discussion about anything political on Metafilter that didn't have at least one person saying OMIGOD THIS IS IT THE POLICE STATE
posted by shakespeherian at 10:56 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

DU - the important bit:

The Biographical Questionnaire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an application for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity. Passport Specialists and Consular Officers will use this form to collect additional information to further establish the identity and/or citizenship of a passport applicant who has not submitted adequate evidence with his/her passport application.

This form will not be required for all new passport applicants - only those who cannot satisfy the current requirement for Primary Evidence of US Citizenship.

OH GOOD, as long as it isn't intended to be abused I guess we can all stop worrying.

FFS anything can be abused, and therefore everything will be abused. Let's burn it all down so we don't have to worry about FASCISM.
posted by muddgirl at 10:56 AM on April 25, 2011

Did you really?

Yes I did, I was in high school, lived at home, and didn't have utility bills yet or letters from the government. I was at the office at Centre street and thought I was SOL until the clerk told me my mom could get my birth certificate.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:58 AM on April 25, 2011

FFS anything can be abused, and therefore everything will be abused

Well everyone has just looked at that PDF and gone "oh that's OK", but what does it actually say? What is the definition of evidence that is "insufficient or of questionably authenticity"? Is it the same definition tomorrow as it is today? What happens to people who submit such documentation today?
posted by crayz at 10:58 AM on April 25, 2011

A wise man showed us the way on this one: "I don't recall" over and over again.
posted by Aquaman at 10:59 AM on April 25, 2011

DU, the first paragraph of the linked pdf say that the document:

is used to supplement an application for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenship or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity.


Which means that if you are unable to provide the required information to obtain a passport, you can now use this additional form which may provide alternative means towards proving citizenship.

-shrug- It looks like the government is trying to broaden the scope of what it will accept as proof of citizenship and people are having a cow because they believe that this is now the process, when it is just an alternative process.

but you know.. nazi's and stuff.
posted by edgeways at 10:59 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm not so sanguine that the PDF Thorzdad linked to makes this a non-issue.

or identity evidence that is insufficient or of questionable authenticity

What's the relevant definition of questionable authenticity?
posted by Zed at 11:00 AM on April 25, 2011 [1 favorite]

1.)  Please provide photos of your conception.
2.)  What type of position did your father use to enter your mother?
2a.) If you were conceived through magical means, please state the type of conjuring used:
3.)  If your mother was attending any weekly meetings prior to your conception, please list the names and addresses of all attendees.
3.)  Please list the pesticides your father was exposed to within the first five years after your birth (IUPAC nomenclature):
4.)  Mother's place of employment at time of birth
   (a) Name of Employer:
   (b) Dates of Employment:
   (c) Address of Employer:
   (d) Manager's Title:
   (e) Manager's Current Phone Number and Address:
   (f) Manager's Stated Religion:
   (g) Manager's Genital Circumference (cm, engorged):
5.)  Please list all exercises performed in grade school gym classes, and total number of repetitions to date.

Total estimated time to complete this form:  45 minutes

posted by benzenedream at 11:01 AM on April 25, 2011